From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN New Products: New Books By Richard Paul Evans, Elder Holland: Kent Larsen Date: 28 Apr 2001 11:20:17 -0500 Kent Larsen 27Apr01 A4 [From Mormon-News] New Products: New Books By Richard Paul Evans, Elder Holland NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- Prolific Mormon author Richard Paul Evans has a new book, aimed at children and published by his LDS distribution company, Evans Book, which tries to teach children about the sacred nature of their bodies. That book makes an interesting parallel to Elder Jeffrey R. Holland's new book, based on a talk he gave at BYU on intimacy. In addition, history fans have a new paperback edition of Conway Sonne's classic "Saints on the Seas," while a University of Illinois Press book by BYU Professor Eric Eliason has edited a compilation of classic scholarly essays on Mormonism. New and recent products: Creating a Book For Your Family in the 21st Century Agreka Books Book; Utah Publisher; Non-Fiction; Mormon Subject $14.95 A guide to publishing family histories, with or without an outside publisher and successfully promoting and selling them. Legacy of Love by Lucille Johnson with JoAnn Jolley Covenant Communications Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $9.95 Johnson shares intimate and heartwarming memories of her mother. A Fountain of Pure Water: A Nephite Baptism Story by Timothy Robinson Deseret Book Book; LDS Publisher; Children's Picture Book; Mormon Subject and Author $15.95 A Book of Mormon baptismal story told from the point of view of a young Nephite girl whose father works as a tax collector for the wicked King Noah. Covers the dramatic events of Mosiah 12-18, including Abinadi's prophecy and death, Alma the Elder's conversion, his preaching in the borders of the land, and the joyful baptism of hundreds of souls willing to "comfort those in need of comfort" and "mourn with those who mourn.". Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments by Jeffrey R. Holland Deseret Book Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $10.95 An important talk, originally given while Elder Holland was president of BYU, on human intimacy. Rather than simply listing the dos and don'ts of personal purity, Elder Holland reviews the doctrinal seriousness of this topic and examines "why we should be clean, and why moral discipline is such a significant matter in God's eyes." Mormons and Mormonism: An Introduction to an American World Religion by Eric A. Eliason University of Illinois Press Book; University Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $39.95 Key essays by leading scholars on the history, foundational idea and practices, and worldwide expansion of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The ideal introduction to Mormonism, this choice sampler provides a selective overview of what many historians consider the most innovative and successful religion to emerge during the spiritual ferment of antebellum America. Saints on the Seas: A Maritime History of Mormon Migration, 1830-1890 by Conway B. Sonne University of Utah Press Book; Utah Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $24.95 The classic study of the Mormon maritime emigration to the US. In the latter half of the 19th century, some 85,000 Mormon converts came to the US from Europe and elsewhere. Sonne chronicles the voyages of about 300 ships involved in bringing them to the US. His Gift by Richard Paul Evans Evans Book Book; LDS Publisher; Children's Picture Book; Mormon Subject and Author $15.95 One of the greatest lessons parents can teach children is about the sacred and divine nature of their own bodies. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Neill, Gregory" Subject: RE: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 30 Apr 2001 14:45:38 -0400 I feel odd responding to this since it is my first post, but this thread really hits home for me at the moment... I just finished that Donna Hill biography over the weekend. It was one of the most faith-promoting things I have ever read--precisely because it doesn't gloss over potential controversies in the prophets life. By showing just how human he was (which is something he often admitted himself), the book left me with an even stronger belief that Joseph Smith was divinely inspired. For me, the works that gloss over or appear to hide controversy are more faith-damaging than a work like _Joseph Smith: The First Mormon_. When you have an honest question or concern, the last thing you want to hear is: "I know the Church is true ...." Perhaps if there have been times you have had doubts, even if they were not serious ones, you could share those feelings and how you overcame them with your friend. For me, these sorts of struggles are an integral part of my testimony. I visited an Episcopalian church with a friend of mine yesterday. The talk (I suppose they call them sermons!) was very good and seems applicable here. The priest made the statement that often the greatest gift we have to give others is our brokenness. By this he said he meant the things we learn from painful wounds that we receive in life. He said we should embrace those experiences, realizing that often the gift we receive from enduring through these experiences is really inseparable from the painful experience itself. Heavenly Father is present in the story of Joseph Smith, and the history of the Church. But He is just as present in the stories of our lives. Told in the spirit of honesty and openness, these personal stories and testimonies can be just as powerful for affecting change or leading folks to the Gospel as missionary discussions or Church publications. Sometimes more so. But as Alma said, you do have to at least have the desire to believe. So as others have said, if this is just a case of looking for a reason to leave then you probably will not be able to change things. Good luck! -Greg Neill - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 30 Apr 2001 12:54:10 -0600 This will probably be a very "sideways" response to Margaret's question, but I think it has some validity. During the years of my first marriage, I met just about every variety of Mormon discontent in the world. I used to say I met every kind of apostate there is :). They all came to visit our house :). During that time, I noticed that most of them were dicontented because of other root causes in their lives. I took to saying, "And what is the main thing that bothers you about. . . ." whatever their rant was at the moment. It took few questions (albeit open-hearted and kindly intended questions) to arrive at some basic anger or pain unrelated to the doctrine at all! And if the individual were not ready and willing to get to some of the core issues, I think it became apparent to me as a listener that there was something more going on than doctrinal discontent. In just about every case, the conversation turned to other, more basic, intense issues. During those discussions, I mostly listened rather than defended . . .after all, there's no defending doctrine (nor history for that matter), when you get right down to it. It just is, and you live around it and with it and through it :). . . . . Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 1400 West 2060 North Helper UT 84526 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Boyd Petersen Subject: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 30 Apr 2001 14:25:08 -0600 on 4/30/2001 12:07 PM, Margaret Young at margaret_young@byu.edu wrote: >Have you found LITERATURE for or against Joseph Smith to be valuable, or >merely a continuation of a long, maybe endless dialogue? Has anyone been >HELPED by an explanation someone has of a Church problem? One of the books that has always helped me when encountering dissonance has been Eugene England's _Dialogues with Myself_ (especially the essay "letter to a college student") and _Why the Church is as True as the Gospel_. Like Margaret, I've found debates about specific points of doctrine or history often generate more questions than answers, and eventually one has to take religious claims on faith. England's books have offered me great hope that answers are available to the questions if I search, but, more importantly, that faith can be just as rigorous approach to a question as reason. --Boyd - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] AML Contest Deadlines Approaching Date: 30 Apr 2001 16:25:59 -0600 Just a reminder about two contests sponsored by the AML: Irreantum Fiction Contest The Association for Mormon Letters is pleased to announce the first annual Irreantum fiction contest. Because Irreantum is a literary quarterly dedicated to exploring Mormon culture, all contest entries must relate to the Mormon experience in some way, either explicitly or implicitly. As long as an entry doesn't exceed 8,500 words, any fictional form will be considered, including short stories and excerpts from novels, screenplays, and play scripts. Any fictional genre is welcome, including literary, mystery, romance, science fiction, fantasy, historical, and horror. The first-place author will be awarded $100, second place $75, and third place $50 (unless the judge determines entries are not of sufficient quality to merit awards). Winners agree to give Irreantum first publication rights. To facilitate blind judging, entries should be submitted with a removable cover sheet that includes the author's name, address, telephone number, e-mail address, and manuscript title-the author's name should appear on no other page of the manuscript. Stories should be double spaced in easily readable type. Entries will not be returned. Submit manuscripts by May 30, 2001, to Irreantum's fiction editor, Tory Anderson, P.O. Box 445, Levan, UT 84639. Unpublished Novel Contest If your novel manuscript is ready, you could win the $1,000 Marilyn Brown Unpublished Novel Award, which is administered by the Association for Mormon Letters. Manuscripts must be postmarked by July 1, 2001, and mailed to: Marilyn Brown Novel Award, 125 Hobble Creek Canyon, Springville, UT 84663. Please submit manuscripts copied on both sides of the paper and bound with a comb binding. To facilitate blind judging, put no author identification on the manuscript and include a sealed envelope containing your name, address, phone number, and manuscript title. Include a self-addressed envelope for notification of contest results, and provide sufficient postage if you want your manuscript returned. The contest, which takes place every other year, was won last time by Jack Harrell, whose winning novel manuscript is under contract with Signature Books. Honorable mentions went to Dorothy Peterson, Laura Card, and Alan R. Mitchell, whose novel manuscript has been published by Cedar Fort as Angel of the Danube. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Favorite Moments in LDS Lit. Date: 30 Apr 2001 15:40:20 -0700 I wanted to do a more thorough answer to Steve's question, but am really pressed for time. I'll give just one answer, though I have many more. I would re-read the scene from the Homecoming series by Orson Scott Card where Zdorab decides to marry a woman for the sake of having posterity despite his homosexuality. It seemed vaguely familiar. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 30 Apr 2001 19:08:51 -0700 (PDT) --- harlowclark@juno.com wrote: > And telling stories. Stories make people human, > rather than philosophical > arguments. The problem with arguments about chickens > and crossing the > plains is that they invite counterarguments, that, > yes, the chickens did > cross the plains to get to the other side, but the > real reason, the > archetypal reason, the reason the Great Coopmaster > drove them across the > plains before the railroad came, was to test them > and put them through an > ordeal. The Morrises have never been much for ordeals and so waited until the railroad was finished, waited until that golden spike was driven, before they converted (London) and came across the plains on the train. Of course then we atoned for our tardiness by living in places like Logan and Kanab. But Harlow is right about stories. I got some wild ones in my family tree and that has led to all manner of variations among us descendents. And it is these stories that in part keep me in the church. I see/hear about folks triumphing in spite of the failures of their parents. I see/hear about folks drifting off to one road or the other (from the John Birch Society to Manti splinter groups to Affirmation). I see the weaknesses and strengths, trials and triumphs of those who stay and those who leave and I am constantly reminded that peace doesn't come through what one knows or claims to know, but how one chooses to love and forgive and try to live up to covenants made. Yes, I get caught up in the maelstrom now and again---all these questions, all this strange history. And yet I can't shake the feeling that the test always is to be obedient despite one's historical moment, despite the weaknesses of those around us. Would I be more comfortable with the doctrine and decisions of the brethren if it fit perfectly into my world view? Of course. Do I look nostalgically at the past and yearn for the dynamic, revolutionary days? Sometimes. One of the most important things my mission taught me is that the Lord has to use the people that are here in the context of the society that they're in, and the opening up of attitudes, the discarding of prejudices takes a long time---probably generations. And I don't understand it, but sometimes the most interesting, sensitive, intelligent people don't make the best pioneers. This is something that will (I hope) haunt my writing in the future. The kind of people that I attracted in Romania were so smart and cosmopolitan--were exactly the kind of people the church needs everywhere, and especially there--but very few of them had the stomach for pioneering. Several knew the Book of Mormon was true, but couldn't commit to joining the community of saints. A few joined but didn't stay. And as always those who stayed surprised me. It was a humbling experience to realize that I can't judge as well as I thought I could who makes a 'good Mormon.' And so I rehearse the stories of the people I met in Romania often, realizing that their stories have changed in the meantime, but trying to learn from their brief narratives. The common thread being that when each of them glimpsed the ideal, the pure knowledge of our religion, they burned with understanding. How that then translates into action is the mystery I'm trying to explore, but I know it's there and I know they saw it. What this is leading to is Margaret's question about the various Joseph Smith accounts of the first vision. I agree with the other posters---trying to use the historians explanations isn't going to work, especially not if your friend is looking for reasons to leave. But what might be a good thing to share (and this is something that it seems like from your post you are already doing) is your stories and the stories of others she might respect. Stories about how you resolve issues, why you stay, and your story of Joseph Smith and why that story is important to you. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] AML Treasurer Needed Date: 30 Apr 2001 16:29:58 -0600 The AML is currently in need of a treasurer. Following is a job description. If you are interested, please contact Chris Bigelow at chris.bigelow@unicitynetwork.com (I will forward candidates to the AML Board for a final decision). TREASURER Manage the AML checkbook, including reconciling monthly banking statements, paying bills, reimbursing AML staffers for expenses, and keeping signature cards up to date with current president, mail clerk, and treasurer. Submit sales tax refund requests. Train the mail clerk/bookkeeping assistant as to which software program and format to input financial transactions into for treasurer's analysis and use. Perform accounting duties, such as tracking expenses and income in useful categories and forecasting the AML's obligations. Handle any legal, government, nonprofit status, or taxation issues that arise, including audits, annual reports, and other paperwork. This includes supplying financial data needed for such initiatives as grant applications. Provide financial reports to the board, at the minimum a yearly financial statement but also perhaps quarterly reports on the AML's financial status and other info as needed on demand (such as current checking account balance). Supervise the registration tables at all live AML events. As needed, coordinate and train volunteers to man the tables. Afterward, turn over all info needed for the mail clerk/bookkeeping asst. to update financial ledgers and mailing lists. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 01 May 2001 06:09:46 -0600 Bravo! I say welcome back, Renato Rigo. And I was thrilled to find somebo= dy from Brasil on this list! Is it true? Can this really happen? Marilyn Bro= wn ----- Original Message ----- > I Think these things don=B4t mind.... The important things are: When you become a member of the Church , your family gets better, your life gets better, your professional success increases, you get happier. When you abandon the church your life transforms into a big confusion,.. Word of a member that abandoned the Church for some reasons (the same you told) and came back to It again... Renato Rigo S=E3o Paulo Brasil renatorigo@bol.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Dutcher to Film Joseph Smith Movie in Palmyra: Rochester NY WHEC TV10 Date: 01 May 2001 06:14:10 -0600 Why is everyone always worried if "its' for profit?" This isn't communism, is it? If someone performs a great service, shouldn't they be rewarded for it? Then they can turn around and hire people, give them something to do that's meaningful, and make the world go around. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 01 May 2001 10:23:57 -0600 This past weekend was remarkable. My co-author and I were invited to participate in the HUGE book festival at UCLA. We were invited by a bookstore which is not affiliated with the Church. My understanding of how most people view Mormons (outside of Utah)--specifically in regards to race--was magnified beyond any comfort zone at that festival. Darius and I hadn't realized that our signing wasn't just a two-hour thing, but basically all the time we could give over two days--Saturday and Sunday. There were several other authors with us in our booth (and hundreds of authors--many of them very famous--elsewhere at the festival). One of the authors who shared our booth, a gorgeous black woman, looked at our book (about Black Mormon pioneers) and said, "I thought Mormons viewed Blacks as one step above a monkey." Darius was able to joke with her (and very soon they were great friends), but he whispered to me, "I love the support I get from my community." The insight hit me hard--of what a BLACK person must go through to be a member of a church which has had restrictive racial policies. I had heard it from some BYU students--that other non-Mormon blacks view them as "Uncle Toms," but the festival was to open my eyes much further. There were over 100,000 people at the festival both days. As they approached us and looked at the book, they said things like, "Mormons and blacks--that's an oxymoron!" "I thought Mormons didn't even let Blacks join their Church!" "I thought Mormons didn't let Blacks into Utah!" "Mormons! They're racists!" As I cite these quotes, you need to understand that they are exact quotes, and were repeated time and time again. I would say that 90% of the people who talked with us (and there were many) started the conversation with a comment about Mormons as racists. It was a rather rude awakening to me. I realized that whenever we've talked about the book or the issues behind it, we've done so to a Mormon crowd--a crowd which understands the context. Often, our audience has included Black converts who are so thrilled to get their side of the story in Mormon history. But this was not a Mormon crowd, and I saw something I haven't seen before--and something I doubt many of us see because we're not front and center talking about Mormons and Blacks. Darius and I were there with a specific issue, which is not the issue most Mormon speakers address. At the end of the two days, I was feeling almost desperate to get on a national stage and talk about who we Mormons are, what our history is regarding race (even owning up to aspects of it which we'd be more comfortable covering up), and really talking. I wanted Oprah to drop by. (Didn't happen.) We actually sold quite a few books, and the bookstore wants us back there next year after Volume 2 is out. I want to go even better prepared, with a full sense of how we are perceived, and with better tools for teaching AND understanding. By the way, several of the folks we met at the festival (non-Mormon) also came to the fireside we did on Sunday night. The fireside was packed, and we may have made the stake president a little nervous by being as frank as we were about race and Mormonism. As it happened, I had phoned home Sunday afternoon to be sure my family was still intact. My husband reported that our son's Sunday school class had had a q/a period--taught by a really wonderful guy, a recent law school graduate and former member of our bishopric. The "blacks and the priesthood" issue had come up, and this great YOUNG man (in his twenties) explained that Blacks were denied the priesthood until 1978 because of the curse of Cain. My son spoke up and calmly said that that wasn't true. The teacher then went on to explanation #2: That Blacks had done something bad in the pre-existence. My son didn't let that one go by either. Bruce (my husband) suggested that our stake maybe needs a Genesis fireside. We've got the old traditions still swimming around us and nobody has ever really stood up and said, "The following beliefs are FALSE..." At the end of the day, besides being exhausted, I was feeling the urgency to speak to more audiences and with greater boldness. The issue is NOT going to go away. It would be nice is we could simply say, "The statement of 1978 continues to speak for itself" and magically make the folklore MANY MORMONS STILL CARRY about Blacks disappear, but I promise that is NOT happening. The folklore is definitely still with us, and we are definitely still perceived as a racist Church. Blacks who join us do so at risk of losing friendships and family--and so you'd better believe that they have testimonies when they join. We must serve them better. We must realize who they are and the tremendous strength they bring with them. We must be willing to fully receive them and welcome their gifts. The Freedman Bank Project was a tremendous bridge--but its presence will not magically heal the false traditions we are still passing down to our children, nor will it magically heal the perceptions non-Mormons have of us. We have miles to go before we can even thing of sleeping. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 01 May 2001 12:05:47 -0600 Margaret Young wrote: >Serious question in this vein: One of my good friends is struggling with the >fact that Joseph Smith gave different versions of the First Vision. Since my >first husband was deeply into anti-Mormonism, I am very familiar with all of >that--and much, much more. I have been hesitant to enter into debate with >her. I think this is the toughest situation for a converted Mormon to deal with. We believe in the fact of the event and the reality of the things that followed--or at least we very much want to. Some of us are bothered by the differing accounts, and some of us are skeptical enough of all recorded history to put those differences down to ordinary human fallibility and the inevitable changes of perception over time. Which is where I come down on a lot of this stuff. Frankly, I doubt some of the details of all of Joseph's accounts, so the fact that some of those details change from telling to telling has never bothered me. Every memory comes in a context, and as we learn more we tend to recast old memories in light of new knowledge. The human brain is very capable of reprogramming itself to alter long-held memories so that they match the new contexts we create for them. Certainly the contexts that Joseph had for remembering events changed over the course of his life as he learned more and more about the true nature of God and his plan. As adults, how often have we convinced ourselves that moments of childhood joy were really illusory? Especially after we've learned that our parents may have had marital problems? I know that at eight years old I thought my parents were devoted to each other and that's when I formed many of my beliefs about how a husband should treat his wife. My father demanded that I respect and honor my mother, and I took that as a true statement of how the world should work. But years later when I discovered that he had been unfaithful to her when I was eight (now I understand why my grandfather baptized me, not my dad...), that knowledge forced me to rethink what I remembered as an eight year-old (and ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, and twenty-one year-old). Now the wise words my father spoke about honoring my mother were revealed as the hypocritical lies of a man trying to convince himself that he hadn't dishonored his own wife, and/or of a man trying to repent of his own sin by brainwashing his child with ideas that his own actions clearly didn't support. Therefore, though I can't specifically remember it, there must have been unbearable tension in my home that led to a host of little cruelties that I'm sure must have happened. So my childhood must really have been a miserable limp from day to day in a house devoid of real love or respect, and any joy that I remember must surely have been manufactured by my own fevered brain. Bunk. We're so ready to accept that our best beliefs were somehow false, and are gladly willing to reprogram our own memories to correct that error. Yet we are more skeptical when told that some remembered wrong never actually happened--or at least not the way we've come to remember that it has. Which was at least part of the basis of discussion about Martha Beck's book, and which I think applies here with equal relevance. I'm fortunate in that I've always doubted the details of any story told by anyone. Consciously or otherwise, I believe we tend to alter the details--and even the contexts and meanings--of our own memories to make them more directly address the issue we're trying to support with that memory. Every story comes in a context, and I believe people honestly tell their stories as truly as they can--within that context and setting and current set of accepted beliefs. And I believe that all those things, and thus the context in which the memory comes, can change from day to day and year to year. We seek the stories that confirm our beliefs. That's human nature--we want to believe that our current conclusions are right, otherwise we have to admit to being wrong, aka stupid or duped. When a faithful Mormon suddenly changes a long-stated positive belief in order to reveal the "true" story of Mormonism's checkered past, other antis praise them for finally overcoming the brainwashing of their past (just as faithfuls praise the repentant for overcoming their own prior brainwashing). So... What can you do? I don't know. I've never tried to "recover" a friend who's begun to lose faith, because I believe that they will perceive such an effort as somewhat less than sincere, and that will close doors faster than any other thing I could do. But I have tried to talk to them about the issues they have. I have tried to tell the story of my own belief, including the thought process that led me to it--and the doubts or questions I had and how I've come to resolve them for myself. It's hard, but I think you can defuse some of the negative energy and bring the discussion into realm of individual belief and hope and idea. Conceding that some stories are probably not completely accurate as told can either fuel the fire or effectively douse it, depending on the person and the context. But in the end, you can only tell the story as you believe it, and remind your friends that your belief is as precious to you as theirs is to them. At that point, they may choose to reject the beliefs you hold dear. I have several friends who are adamantly opposed to the Church, but we've agreed not to debate that issue anymore. We often discuss individual events or books or experiences, but we don't debate ultimate truth anymore. The best I can do is try to be a good and honest person who is unafraid to say what I believe, and hope that eventually the anger that fuels their disbelief will fade, and that a long history of memories of one good Mormon friend will have some weight when they finally decide to rethink their reasons for believing as they do. Sorry for the long, rambling post. This is a difficult issue, and one that I don't think has any pat answers. Unfortunately, in trying to come up with something all I've done is flail at the issue with some stream of consciousness, unstructured philosophical flotsam that bubbled to the top of my brain as I thought about the question. In this case, I can only tell my own story. I'm fortunate in that I'm a mnemonic relativist and I doubt all memory, thus I come to my own conclusions for my own reasons, and use other people's stories as illustrative, not authoritative. In the end, nothing can be absolutely proven--even the historians have to take the widely differing stories on faith and choose which ones they accept as more and less authoritative. Which is why I think you need to tell your own story your own way as often as opportunity permits--be that in the form of spoken testimony, essay, or fiction. In the telling, you discover your own conclusions again and rethink your belief in a modern context. If that story changes over time, so what? Faith evolves, as do beliefs. Are there parts of each telling that remain the same? These are the core truths that have been unshaken by time and context. And while it's possible that the only one who will be touched by your testament is yourself, I believe oneself to be a worthy audience as well. >As of now, I have mostly >expressed my love for her and not entered into the fray. I believe the >Spirit is the answer, and many questions become pretty irrelevant when one is >firmly grounded in faith (which is not an oxymoron). At the same time, don't be afraid to speak the truth about what you believe. The Spirit has many means of influence, and I think personal expression is one of the most powerful. The hard part is to deliver that expression without the (often inevitable) "therefore I think you're goofy and need to fix your broken belief." I suppose that idea is implied in any disagreement, but saying it out loud is almost never productive. But you know that. Your work has proven that time and again. >Have you found LITERATURE for or >against Joseph Smith to be valuable, or merely a continuation of a long, >maybe endless dialogue? Has anyone been HELPED by an explanation someone has >of a Church problem? Depends on who, when, and in what context. I think every testimony can have value, but you never know which one will have power. Books or stories that I have found to be intolerably trivial have had deep and powerful impacts on friends of mine. My father found clear articulation of his own doubts in what I consider to be a cheesy Mormon novel that was lent to him by a friend. The book didn't directly convince him to change his beliefs--he found the arguments to be as trivial as I did--but the fact that a faithful Mormon had admitted to the real power of those doubts gave him a few more weeks of thought time in which to consider his own beliefs and the reasons for them. And those few weeks may have been the difference between coming and going. It's one of the many reasons that I defend all Mormon literature--even the stuff I find unbearably trite, or the stuff I find smug, or the stuff I find hopeless. You never know which presentation might trigger a person to think a new thought, so you dare not stamp out any of the forms. Heaven knows, some of the literature that has had the most powerful impact on my own thought is stuff that I have so violently disagreed with that it pushed my mind down paths completely unimagined by the author, and led me to beliefs directly opposed to the author's. So, yeah. I have a personal experience with Mormon literature helping to reclaim someone close to me. Not because the trite story itself had power, but because it was one of several influences that helped open a line of reasoning in that person's mind that led to more important discoveries. Not specifically about Joseph Smith, but definitely about overall testimony--of which Joseph Smith is an inevitable component. >(And be careful on this one. Darius and I did a >fireside recently wherein an older sister announced that a black man had >explained to her that blacks hadn't EARNED the priesthood before 1978. She >believed it. It's a frightening thing when someone gets satisfaction and >comfort in believing a lie.) We all find comfort in lies at one time or another. It's why we should never stop telling the truth as we understand it--so that those well-meaning lies can be replaced with more substantive truths, or portions of truth. If the lie stands alone, it takes little effort to destroy that weak foundation. If the lie is surrounded by truth, its impact is reduced until it has no meaningful effect on the foundation, and attacking it will not topple the faith that rode (briefly) upon it. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 01 May 2001 13:24:26 -0600 Cathy Wilson wrote: > > This will probably be a very "sideways" response to Margaret's question, but > I think it has some validity. During the years of my first marriage, I met > just about every variety of Mormon discontent in the world. I used to say I > met every kind of apostate there is :). They all came to visit our house > :). During that time, I noticed that most of them were dicontented because > of other root causes in their lives. I took to saying, "And what is the > main thing that bothers you about. . . ." whatever their rant was at the > moment. It took few questions (albeit open-hearted and kindly intended > questions) to arrive at some basic anger or pain unrelated to the doctrine > at all! And if the individual were not ready and willing to get to some of > the core issues, I think it became apparent to me as a listener that there > was something more going on than doctrinal discontent. In just about every > case, the conversation turned to other, more basic, intense issues. I'm glad you said, "In just about every case," because I can't believe that it's true in every case that people leaving the Church always do so for hidden reasons. Just as I don't personally believe the creed of the Church of Scientology, for instance, because it just doesn't seem right to me, I can believe that people can come to not believe the doctrine of the LDS church, and have that unbelief be entirely unrelated to any personal issues. In fact, I know it can, because I know several ex-Mormons who tell me that they are in a place in their lives where they just no longer believe. Another reason I can't believe it is because of what such a belief says about those who aren't of our faith or are and have fallen away. To me, it seems to say that there must be something wrong with you as a person if you don't believe or no longer believe. I know there are people who've left the church who were offended by a Bishop, or felt constricted by the teachings of Boyd K. Packer, etc. But I also know people who've left who, while sitting in Sunday School, had the same reaction that I do when I listen to Pat Robertson: "What nonsense." They just flat out don't believe the doctrine anymore. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Helena Chester Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 02 May 2001 05:41:42 +1000 This is a brilliant response! I am honoured to be part of such a deep thinking group. Helena Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: [snip of entire post] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Chamberlain" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Dutcher to Film Joseph Smith Movie in Palmyra: Date: 01 May 2001 14:26:25 -0600 I find it very interesting that this missionary only feels that making = money from a movie is "evil". I wonder if he feels the same way about The = Work and the Glory or all of the music, videos, plays and "art" that is = produced by church members. I wonder if he ascribes more acceptable = motives (faith promotion) to everyone except Dutcher. Peter Chamberlain >>> wwbrown@burgoyne.com 05/01/01 06:14AM >>> Why is everyone always worried if "its' for profit?" This isn't communism, is it? If someone performs a great service, shouldn't they be rewarded for it? Then they can turn around and hire people, give them something to do that's meaningful, and make the world go around. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: [AML] First Vision Accounts (was: Church Problems in Lit) Date: 01 May 2001 14:14:26 -0600 On Tue, 1 May 2001 12:05:47 -0600, Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: >Which is where I come down on a lot of this stuff. Frankly, I doubt=20 >some of the details of all of Joseph's accounts, so the fact that=20 >some of those details change from telling to telling has never=20 >bothered me. Every memory comes in a context, and as we learn more we=20 >tend to recast old memories in light of new knowledge. The human=20 >brain is very capable of reprogramming itself to alter long-held=20 >memories so that they match the new contexts we create for them.=20 >Certainly the contexts that Joseph had for remembering events changed=20 >over the course of his life as he learned more and more about the=20 >true nature of God and his plan. I haven't done any in-depth analysis of the (was it three?) different accounts offered by Joseph Smith of the first vision, but it seems to me that as people who write we might have a unique perspective on his = accounts. The first vision was a pretty significant, and lengthy, event--one that contained a good number of things that have never been recorded. Joseph Smith never said about any of the accounts that they contain the *entire* events of the first vision. It's kind of like the people who say that = the Bible is false because the only children of Adam and Eve mentioned in Genesis are males (and therefore couldn't have populated the Earth). As writers, we should be aware that the entire event would have been = impossible to recount (even if it ended with what *has* been related) and as = students of the Book of Mormon, we should recognize that there are many things = that just aren't recorded, often by God's direct command. Another thing that writers should be attuned to regarding the differing accounts is that it is often necessary to tailor your accounts to the audience and circumstances of the telling. I'm pretty sure that the circumstances and audience for each retelling was different in = significant ways. Obviously, Joseph will emphasis certain things depending on who he= is writing to and recount those events that are germane to the point he is making. I would reserve the "faltering memory" argument only in instances of = direct contradiction. Anything else is explainable in audience selection and an event that was likely much broader than has ever been recorded. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Women Lawyers (was: THAYER) Date: 01 May 2001 15:05:09 -0600 > > Law school!? Why are we losing all our best women writers to law school? > > you're well paid and there is no editor looking over your shoulder! > >Just twelve editors in the jury box--and you only get one shot to make >them happy: no rewrites. I have read, though, that many women are leaving the law field. They develop a strong distaste for the adversarial nature of what we call the justice system. It isn't really a search for truth--it's a contest to see which lawyer wins. A male lawyer I know agreed with that assessement--said he loves getting in there for the fight and destroying the other guy if possible. Who was right and who was wrong was not an issue with him. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: Re: [AML] Favorite Moments in LDS Lit. Date: 02 May 2001 11:24:41 +0900 Just picking out a single scene for me shifts the focus to more of the big pay-off scene, rather than something more subtle. And of those kind of scenes, my favorites are the climaxes of two of my favorite Card novels, Red Prophet (where the Indians allow themselves to be massacred a la the Anti-Nephi-Lehis in the Book of Mormon) and Pastwatch (where a new past is created, in which one of the central American cultures is given a leg up a century before Columbus arrives, and Columbus is subsequently forced to examine some of his deeply held ideas). Those are both very emotional, big pay-off type moments, which aren't forgotten easily. A little more subtly, one of my favorite dialouge sections, or relationships, is that in Michael Fillerup's Beyond the River, in the first quarter of the book, between the Mormon high school jock protagonist and narrator, and Nancy, the enigmatic girl who shocks him out of his complacency. Their dialogue was crisp and fascinating. The book definately began to drag after Nancy left the stage, but that first quarter alone puts Beyond the River high up on my Mormon lit list of favorites. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kent Larsen (by way of Ronn Blankenship ) Subject: [AML] MN News Briefs: Kent Larsen 1May01 X1 Date: 01 May 2001 19:41:16 -0500 From Mormon-News: See footer for instructions on joining and leaving this list. Do you have an opinion on this news item? Send your comment to letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com BYU Family Expo Panel Says Arts are Shield Against Evil PROVO, UTAH -- A panel at BYU's recent Family Expo discussed the importance of the arts in the family, telling parents and those attending that the arts fortify children against evil and violence. The panel, chaired by Kenneth Crossley, director of Brigham Young University's Performing Arts Series, gave parents four suggestions for involving children in the arts; start early, create an artistic climate in the family, look for a variety of arts options, bring arts to the child's level, and do it together. Arts fortify children against evil, violence, BYU panelists says Deseret News 26Apr01 A6 By Carma Wadley: Deseret News senior writer From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Darius Gray on Meridian Date: 02 May 2001 12:00:29 +0900 Here is some indication that the stories Margaret is talking about are starting to be heard at least in the Mormon community. Two excellent articles featuring Darius Gray appeared recently on the LDS web magazine Meridian Magazine. First: http://www.meridianmagazine.com/turninghearts/010418freedman.html This is a much more detailed description of the effort involved in producing the Freedman Band records than I have seen before. Brother Gray featured prominantly in that effort. The detalis about the role the inmates in the Utah State Prison played are especially interesting. Next: http://www.meridianmagazine.com/books/010419bw.html This is an article by Margaret Young giving in more detail than I have seen before the background on how she met Brother Gray, and how they went about writing Standing on the Promises. Also on Meridian, Marvin Payne continues his series on writing journals: http://www.meridianmagazine.com/backstagegraffiti/010420mac.html There is a reprint of the Irreantum interview of Dean Hughes, and articles by Anne Perry, Richard Cracoft, and Truman Madsen, and reviews of Brigham City. For all that I have criticized Meridian, it is becoming a significant outlet for discussion of Mormon literature and culture. On a personal note, I lent my copy of Standing on the Promises to a bright young black investigator I helped teach a discussion to two hours ago. Usually I wouldn't reccommend much besides the scriptures to investigators at this point, but she has a lot of time this week, likes to read, has been asking about blacks in the Church, and is finding a lot of negative stuff on the internet on the subject anyway, so I figured she could benefit from the experience. I think it will go well. Unfortunately she is spending all day recently on the internet, and it seems to make her very jumpy and unable to concentrate. So the missionaries and I decided to ask her to committ to not getting on the internet for a week, and instead to concentrate on reading the Book of Mormon and finding her own answer. I have her internet phone cord in my backpack now. Her mother, who joined the Church a couple of months ago, was also very excited to read the novel. Andrew Hall _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 02 May 2001 00:51:32 -0600 Margaret Young wrote: > There were over 100,000 people at the festival both days. As they > approached us and looked at the book, they said things like, "Mormons > and blacks--that's an oxymoron!" "I thought Mormons didn't even let > Blacks join their Church!" "I thought Mormons didn't let Blacks into > Utah!" "Mormons! They're racists!" As I cite these quotes, you need to > understand that they are exact quotes, and were repeated time and time > again. I would say that 90% of the people who talked with us (and there > were many) started the conversation with a comment about Mormons as > racists. I would guess that much of this is pure ignorance--this is what they've heard all their lives, so they repeat it. I would imagine that many of them would change their minds simply with an influx of information. Imagine what a difference you and Darius made in the perception of many people simply by being there and talking, with a book about black Mormon pioneers on display. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 02 May 2001 01:37:55 -0600 Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > Frankly, I doubt > some of the details of all of Joseph's accounts, so the fact that > some of those details change from telling to telling has never > bothered me. Every memory comes in a context, and as we learn more we > tend to recast old memories in light of new knowledge. The human > brain is very capable of reprogramming itself to alter long-held > memories so that they match the new contexts we create for them. > Certainly the contexts that Joseph had for remembering events changed > over the course of his life as he learned more and more about the > true nature of God and his plan. I always prided myself on my great memory. Well, you know what they say: pride precedeth the fall. The mechanism which toppled my pride was completely unexpected: Nick at Night. Nickelodeon cable station runs reruns of old TV shows at night. I remember many of these shows from their first airings. Well, I thought I did. I have very vivid memories of choice scenes from them. But after all these years, finally seeing the real thing again for the first time in ages, I was shocked at how faulty my memory was. I remember a scene from "All in the Family" where Archie Bunker bought some mace for protection (illegal in New York City without a license), then had a crime committed against him. When the cop came over in response to the crime, he found the mace and charged Archie instead. I remember the dialog, the exact look on Archie's face when he said it--everything. I have clear images in my head of how that scene went down. Then I saw it again. I was dead wrong. Not only did Archie never have the expression on his face that I remember, he never said what I remember him saying. Furthermore, months later, I still see the faulty image and can't remember how the scene really played out. But there is one thing I can say with absolute assurity. That episode did air and I did watch it. So I don't get terribly riled up about discrepencies in reports about events in church history. Differences in different tellings of the First Vision? Whoop-de-doo! You should hear the differences in stories from my past when I retell them. But that doesn't mean the events I tell stories about never happened. Nor does any of this mean that a First Vision never happened to Joseph Smith. Just like my faulty memory doesn't prove that an "All in the Family" episode about mace never aired. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 02 May 2001 09:51:14 -0600 So good, Margaret! To read your post! You point out the reasons Carol Houck Smith and other national publishers don't accept anything about us to publish on the national market. (Unless it's anti) All of these comments are reverse descrimination in the worst way. It sounds like we're not even PEOPLE to so many, but just crazy western cultists and racists. It will take all of us to help erase the stigmas. Thank you for being such a missionary! Sincerely, Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 02 May 2001 10:00:08 -0600 Even though it was a long post, Scott, you had some very interesting and pertinent things to say about contexts. That is the interesting truth--that "in the beginning was the word" is the principle that belongs to all of us individually. Every person's context is different. When Christ suggested that we could experience "at One Ment" he tried to give us a set of words we could all understand together--and so discover spiritual harmony--which is also the goal of an author. Harmony cannot possibly be achieved if there is one deceit. Thanks for giving us an insight into your own experiences! Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] MN News Briefs: Kent Larsen 1May01 X1 Date: 02 May 2001 10:29:28 -0600 "Kent Larsen (by way of Ronn Blankenship )" wrote: > > From Mormon-News: See footer for instructions on joining and leaving this > list. > Do you have an opinion on this news item? Send your comment to > letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com > > BYU Family Expo Panel Says Arts are Shield Against Evil > > PROVO, UTAH -- A panel at BYU's recent Family Expo discussed the importance > of the arts in the family, telling parents and those attending that the arts > fortify children against evil and violence. Someone, please tell me I've not died and gone to heaven. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Hatch Subject: [AML] Re: LA Book Festival Date: 02 May 2001 10:37:49 -0700 >Margaret Young wrote: >I wanted Oprah to drop by. (Didn't happen.) Margaret, I'm so fired up after reading your post that I'm tempted to start calling Chicago to get you on the Oprah show myself! Does anyone know how to accomplish this? Does anybody know someone with enough influence to pull this off? I've even wondered about having someone send Oprah a copy of your post. Wouldn't she have to be curious? -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 02 May 2001 12:38:21 -0700 Margaret wrote: >Serious question in this vein: One of my good friends is struggling with the >fact that Joseph Smith gave different versions of the First Vision. It fascinates me that the same event can build the testimony of one person, and destroy the testimony of another. I take strength from different versions of the First Vision. It has been my experience that when liars fabricate stories, the details don't change. People who are less "ingenious" live complex lives, and find layers and layers of meaning in signficant events. To me, Joseph's varying accounts testify that the event was meaningful to him on a personal level when it first happened, and took on different meaning and greater public significance as he matured. I've had tremendous experiences in my own life -- and I surely don't tell the stories the same way now as I would have earlier on. Details that seemed meaningless at first -- not worth mentioning -- have taken on DEEP significance as I've seen new connections and learned more about God. Joseph's story -- every telling of it -- happened. I know it happened, because it was hugely significant, multi-faceted, and incredibly profound. And because he doesn't tell it the same way twice. >So the question is, how do y'all deal with struggling friends? I believe most people who are struggling are honestly hoping someone will help them find answers. So yes, so long as I perceive that people are sincere, I do get into the fray. To fail to give answers -- when the answers are there -- is to neglect one's duty to the 100th sheep. >Have you found LITERATURE for or >against Joseph Smith to be valuable, or merely a continuation of a long, >maybe endless dialogue? Has anyone been HELPED by an >explanation someone has of a Church problem? The BUSH book (I've lent mine out, and am having a momentary mental block) called Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism was a tremendous help in resolving some questions I had about controversies surrounding the Prophet. --lauramaery --------- WHAT DO WE DO? We homeschool! Here's how: "Homeschool Your Child for Free." Order your copy today, from Amazon.com. --------- . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 02 May 2001 12:35:51 +0900 I was reading a scholarly introduction in a recent publication of Lew Wallace's Ben-Hur, and found some comments about 19th century laws and customs about depicting divinity on stage interesting, and wonder how they relate to Mormon ideas of the impropriety of depicting ordinances on stage or on film. I checked out the copy of Ben-Hur because I am reading Gerald Lund's Fishers of Men, the first in his series of novels about people who came into contact with Christ during his ministry. I figured Ben-Hur (1880) is the Ur-novel of the genre in English. In the 1998 introduction, David Mayer writes, "Ben-Hur's success also made it an immediate choice for dramatic adaptation. Wallace was besieged by theatrical managements and dramatic authors who applied to prepare versions for the stage. In every instance Wallace refused these early requests on the grounds that it was impossible to represent Jesus, a problem intensified by American local ordinances which had been activated in the 1880s to suppress Passion plays and by a British Act of Parliament which forbade the portrayal of a reigning monarch or the representation of deity on the stage. . . . At some point in the 1890s the American theatrical managers Marc Klaw and Abraham Erlanger persuaded Lew Wallace that Ben-Hur might be adapted successfully for the stage and avoide litigation and censorship if the appearances of Jesus were represented not by an actor, but by a beam of intense blue limelight. . . Ben-Hur opened at Manhattan's Broadway Theater on 29 November 1899. Having reassured the Lord Chamberlain, the British censor, that the drama contained no blasphemy, Ben-Hur was brought to London's Drury Lane Theatre in April 1902." (Ben-Hur, Oxford UP, 1998, p. 19-20). An unauthorized film version was made in 1907, but a suit by Wallace's publishers resulted in its suppression. The 1925 silant film version was the first authorized version, and I assume an actor playing Christ appeared in it. It was a blockbuster. Of course most of us know the 1959 version. Apparently many hold the 1925 version to be better. So these things about 19th century aversion to depicting divinity on stage is interesting. I wonder if this impacted Mormon ideas, and then, because of Mormon conservativism, they remained in Mormon culture longer than in the mainstream culture (like many other cultural habits). Of course the Church itself didn't make many films before the 60s, but I doubt any of them dipicted Christ's physical form. There have been lots of pagents, I wonder when, say the Manti and Cumorah pagents began having actors playing Christ onstage (without lights or something else partially obscuring the actor). The first film to do this in a public venue may have been The First Vision (mid 70s?). Now it is common. Still there is some nervousness about dipicting ordinances on film. We have talked here on the list about some negative reaction to God's Army's depiction of the healing and the baptisms, and now some reaction to Brigham City's scene depicting the passing of the sacrament. I was talking to a missionary about it on Sunday, and he seemed nervous about having those kinds of scenes in a movie. (Although Church-produced films often have those kinds of scenes these days. Baptisms and the sacrament in Restoration of the Priesthood, healings in Legacy). I'm sure it relates to official Church policy against filming or recording real ordinances. Any comments? Andrew Hall _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Women Lawyers (was: THAYER) Date: 01 May 2001 22:29:53 -0700 Sharlee asks: >Law school!? Why are we losing all our best women writers to law >school? First Tessa and now Donlu. Hmmmm . . . . I'm quite certain I don't qualify as anything like a best woman writer, but I did go to law school. You would've, too. It was free! When I was editing PC World, companies that didn't think their bad deeds deserved exposure often threatened to sue me. I persuaded my publisher that it would be in his economic interest to send me to law school. So he did. It was a terrific experience, and I recommend it to anyone who can wrangle tuition. You don't, after all, have to become a lawyer just because you went to law school. Just ask me. I'm a mommy...and a writer. --lmg --------- WHAT DO WE DO? We homeschool! Here's how: "Homeschool Your Child for Free." Order your copy today, from Amazon.com. --------- . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 02 May 2001 12:56:03 -0700 Margaret wrote: > Serious question in this vein: One of my good friends is struggling with > the fact that Joseph Smith gave different versions of the First Vision. > Since my first husband was deeply into anti-Mormonism, I am very > familiar with all of that--and much, much more. I have been hesitant > to enter into debate with her. I've seen LDS historians' responses > to the different versions, and I can easily give them to her, but > I know anti-Mormon literature well enough to understand that one > question leads to the next. I believe that the debate can be endless. > I've mentioned this friend on the list before, and my sense > is that she wants to leave the church for other reasons, and is finding > reasons for leaving via anti-Mormon literature. As of now, I have mostly > expressed my love for her and not entered into the fray. I believe the > Spirit is the answer, and many questions become pretty irrelevant when > one is firmly grounded in faith (which is not an oxymoron). It is not foreordained that the debate will be endless. Or even that any discussion would become a debate. But your choice of these words shows your apprehension about entering a possibly contentious situation, one in which the outcome is not guaranteed. If you chose to address her questions directly, you might not be able to answer them adequately. She might not accept your reasoning. Your friendship might be damaged. These are significant concerns. Can I tell you a story? A number of years ago I used to work in downtown Palo Alto, not too far from Stanford University. As I would walk on University Avenue from the Caltrain station to work and back, or as I walked to restaurants or used bookstores at lunchtime, I would see lots of unsafe pedestrian behavior. I'd see people crossing the street after the traffic light turned red, ignoring the cars that were about to accelerate. Sometimes these pedestrians were locals, but often they looked like tourists -- people visiting Stanford and Palo Alto for the day. (For some reason, tourists on foot don't pay attention to traffic signals. Do they assume that the normal rules of behavior don't apply when they're on vacation?) Usually I would just shake my head, or mumble "sheesh", and then walk on. One day I decided I wasn't going to do that anymore. If I saw someone about to do something unsafe, I would open my mouth. This wasn't a major, drawn-out decision. It was something I just spontaneously decided to do. And so that's what I started doing. If I saw someone about to step into the street when the light was red, or when a car was coming, I would say "Watch out!" in a loud voice. And then they would stop and look. I can still remember one of the first intersections where I did that, half a block from the Stanford Theater (where they show the great old movies on the big screen) and kitty-corner from Burger King. It was interesting doing this because although there were often lots of people around, nobody else ever said anything. Nobody tried to warn their neighbor about oncoming traffic. They just saw, and thought, but they didn't speak up. So my point of view seems different than yours, Margaret. If someone comes to me with theological or intellectual questions, and I'm familiar with the issues, then I need to tell him or her what I know. It is an opportunity to help. And if I don't share what I know, then I'm not living fully in that moment that God has given me. It's good to express love. But sometimes people also need -- and want -- to hear the intellectual reasons why we think or believe a certain way. Sometimes when people challenge our beliefs, they do so not because they believe in their own objections. (They may only be trying on the objections for size, to see how it feels to think that way.) Rather, they want to see how solid *our* beliefs are. And if we wimp out, and fail to address the intellectual content of their objections when we could have done so, we are doing them a disservice, because they will walk away disappointed, thinking that we don't know the answers. They may erroneously conclude that there are no good reasons to discard their objections. And that would be very unfortunate. I'm not saying that it's bad to say "I don't know". I'm not saying we should make up intellectual arguments on the spot just so we can rebut someone's objections. But if we do know something solid that could help, we should say something. I think we too often assume that answering anti-Mormon objections requires antagonism on our part, or that we will be drawn instantly into a Bible-bashing mental and verbal mode. Maybe that's how some LDS deal with challenges to their faith. But we don't have to be overbearing or argumentative. If I were directing the scene, so to speak, I would tell the person answering the questions to do so in a kind, gentle way, without indignation or negative energy. I know it's unusual, but I think it's possible to talk about theological controversies in the same tone of voice that one would use to comfort someone dealing with personal trauma. The calmness comes from within. And it's a gift to those who are prepared to deal with the issue at hand. Sometimes having love means speaking in a loving way about topics which don't fall under the rubric of love. Sorry I'm so long-winded here. Does any of this help? Ironically, I myself am now at the intersection of choice, where *your* intellectual question meets my understanding. Thom, Harlow, Jacob and others have already spoken up. Here's my 2 bits worth to add to their suggestions. 1. Don't LDS historians often deal with the issue of multiple accounts of the First Vision by comparing it to the Four Gospels? Rejecting the First Vision because of multiple accounts is like rejecting the New Testament's testimony of Jesus because the Gospels differ in details. (I don't recall if Donna Hill addresses this. Maybe Richard Bushman does in his _Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism_.) I recall that years ago, at a Mormon History Association meeting -- in Kirtland, I believe -- that James Arrington read aloud a unified account of the First Vision, drawn from all of Joseph's versions. I think that version was subsequently printed in Dialogue or BYU Studies. Maybe reading that with her would help? I also think before a person decides that Joseph Smith lied because he didn't say exactly the same thing in all his accounts of the First Vision, he or she should do their own due diligence and study the conclusions reached by historians who have spent much more time on this than he or she has. Being offended at Joseph's words when one has not done a close textual reading of the totality of the evidence is not a solid intellectual position. 2. I think it's also important to look at all of Joseph's accomplishments before rejecting his witness. For instance, how does one explain the anomaly that is the Book of Mormon? I like Hugh Nibley's short piece, "The Book of Mormon: A Minimal Statement" in "The Timely and the Timeless", which was originally printed in a scholarly Catholic journal. I also like Orson Scott Card's essay, "The Book of Mormon--Artifact or Artifice?" in _A Storyteller in Zion_, in which he uses his experience as a novelist to examine whether Joseph could have written the BoM as a work of fiction. I enjoyed reading the positive remarks about Joseph by non-Mormons such as Nathan Hatch in _The Democratization of American Christianity_, and by Harold Bloom in _The American Religion_ (though I don't consider Joseph a Gnostic). It's as though these honest thinkers are admiring the exterior of a beautiful building, and saying "Wow!" But they don't why or how the building was built. For that, I would go to Truman Madsen's thoughtful essays in _Joseph Smith the Prophet_. 3. I agree that stories & personal experiences may be useful, too. I've been helped by the first-person accounts collected by Hartman & Connie Rector in Volume 1 of _No More Strangers_. Before someone gives up on Joseph Smith, he or she might try reading John Staley's account of how he went from being an ordained Benedictine monk to a baptized Latter-day Saint. Surely a Catholic monk, or a Protestant minister, would have serious theological problems with believing Joseph Smith or joining our religion. Reading how such individuals wrestled with their objections has been helpful to me. Sorry, Moderator, if this has been too long! (I did try to mention some literary stuff at the end!) Regards, Frank Maxwell Gilroy, California - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 02 May 2001 14:16:53 -0600 On Tue, 01 May 2001 13:24:26 -0600, Thom Duncan wrote: >Another reason I can't believe it is because of what such a belief says >about those who aren't of our faith or are and have fallen away. To me, >it seems to say that there must be something wrong with you as a person >if you don't believe or no longer believe. I know there are people >who've left the church who were offended by a Bishop, or felt >constricted by the teachings of Boyd K. Packer, etc. But I also know >people who've left who, while sitting in Sunday School, had the same >reaction that I do when I listen to Pat Robertson: "What nonsense." >They just flat out don't believe the doctrine anymore.=20 Um. If there is such a thing as a "True Church" then there *is* = something wrong with a person who falls away from it. If people will leave the = True Church because they are offended by a bishop, felt constricted by Boyd K. Packer, or because they think that Sunday School lessons are "nonsense" = then there is, by definition, something wrong with them. That said, since we are all human and we all fail, there is *something* wrong with all of us. The trick is to keep in mind that we are all = children of God and we can all benefit by drawing closer to Him. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 02 May 2001 14:41:53 -0600 "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" wrote: > > Margaret wrote: > >Serious question in this vein: One of my good friends is struggling with the > >fact that Joseph Smith gave different versions of the First Vision. > > It fascinates me that the same event can build the testimony of one person, > and destroy the testimony of another. > > I take strength from different versions of the First Vision. It has been my > experience that when liars fabricate stories, the details don't change. They will over time. Liars have no better memories than people who tell the truth. > People who are less "ingenious" live complex lives, and find layers and > layers of meaning in signficant events. To me, Joseph's varying accounts > testify that the event was meaningful to him on a personal level when it > first happened, and took on different meaning and greater public > significance as he matured. On this, I agree completely. > > I've had tremendous experiences in my own life -- and I surely don't tell > the stories the same way now as I would have earlier on. Details that > seemed meaningless at first -- not worth mentioning -- have taken on DEEP > significance as I've seen new connections and learned more about God. > > Joseph's story -- every telling of it -- happened. I know it happened, > because it was hugely significant, multi-faceted, and incredibly profound. > And because he doesn't tell it the same way twice. The fact that it changes from time to time doesn't convince me it's true and, I would hope, it would not be the sole convincing factor for anyone. (President Clinton's account of involvement with Monica Lewinsky varied over time, so the changeable vector of a story shouldn't go to "proving" its accuracy.) Only the most die-hard anti-Mormon can still claim that the First Vision was entirely made up. Objectively, however, it is clear that something happened to Joseph of incredible, life-changing power. -- Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 02 May 2001 14:34:13 -0700 (PDT) --- Elizabeth Hatch wrote: > >Margaret Young wrote: > >I wanted Oprah to drop by. (Didn't happen.) > > Margaret, > I'm so fired up after reading your post that I'm > tempted to start > calling Chicago to get you on the Oprah show myself! > > Does anyone know how to accomplish this? Does > anybody know someone with > enough influence to pull this off? > > I've even wondered about having someone send Oprah a > copy of your post. > Wouldn't she have to be curious? > > -Beth Hatch A quick unsatisfying answer. To get on the show, send a pitch letter to: Harpo Productions P. O. Box 909715 Chicago, IL 60607 The problem is I'm sure that the show receives hundreds of pitch letters each week so the subject would have to appealing enough to pass through the first level of assistant producers or interns or whoever reads the things. I think Darius and Margaret's story is compelling, but somebody at the show would have to get past the initial 'Mormon' thing. I think that if put in the right context, or given the right hook, it might work, but shows like Oprah have a national audience and national advertisers, so the question isn't so much is the story compelling to the producers personally, but would it be compelling to all those out there who watch Oprah religiously? But it never hurts to try. As with all pitches (and similar to book queries), the pitch letter would have to be short (one page), be compelling (but easy to understand), establish credibility and show how well it (the story) fits with the program's format and themes. My guess, though, is that you are right to bring up the 'influence to pull this off' question. If there were someone who had Oprah's or one of her producer's ear and could informally pitch the story, the chances of us seeing Darius and Margaret on national television would jump tremendously. Nobody has a nephew/niece/cousin/neighbor's child interning at the show? ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 02 May 2001 16:26:42 -0600 Thom wrote: To me, it seems to say that there must be something wrong with you as a person if you don't believe or no longer believe. I know there are people who've left the church who were offended by a Bishop, or felt constricted by the teachings of Boyd K. Packer, etc. But I also know people who've left who, while sitting in Sunday School, had the same reaction that I do when I listen to Pat Robertson: "What nonsense." They just flat out don't believe the doctrine anymore. YES! Hopefully though, these people don't keep shadow boxing with the church the rest of their lives. The people that visited us kept rehashing their differences with the church, rehearsing their disaffectedness. They don't leave it alone. If you just don't believe anymore, it seems to me that you'd walk forward without having to wrestle, fight, find fault and fuss over the doctrines and practices. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 1400 West 2060 North Helper UT 84526 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BJ Rowley" Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 02 May 2001 16:35:00 -0600 > > >> Margaret Young wrote: >> I wanted Oprah to drop by. (Didn't happen.) > Elizabeth Hatch wrote: > > Margaret, > I'm so fired up after reading your post that I'm tempted to start > calling Chicago to get you on the Oprah show myself! > > Does anyone know how to accomplish this? Does anybody know someone with > enough influence to pull this off? > > I've even wondered about having someone send Oprah a copy of your post. > Wouldn't she have to be curious? > > -Beth Hatch > I also thought this would make a great show for Oprah. "MORMONS & BLACKS." (or something to that effect.) While I don't know anybody with pull or influence, I DO know the conventional procedure for getting on her show. Go to her website at: http://www.oprah.com/tows/intheworks/plugs_716.html and click on "fill out the form." (and include the AML Post in the submittal.) They're always looking for new Show Ideas. And if you just happen to have a Great Book! that goes along with the Idea, then there's a VERY good chance that she'll pick it up AND add it to her Book Club. (Send them a copy of the book, with a copy of the Show Idea submittal included.) I submitted a Show Idea, along with a book, to them several months ago. They responded within a week, via e-mail, to let me know that they had received my submittal and would be reviewing it. Later they responded again, thanking me for my input but kindly turning down my idea as something not quite right for their show. At any rate, it's certainly worth a try. They won't just ignore you, like some do. Go for it! -BJ Rowley > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Allred Subject: Re: [AML] Favorite Moments in LDS Lit. Date: 02 May 2001 17:43:42 -0600 Looking at the short list of favorite moments I compiled just off the top of my head, I realized that my favorite ones are (to borrow an oft-quoted test of "good" poetry) ones that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand straight. A few of those moments: 1) Harlow Clark's storylet regarding the Book of Job. (Sorry, Harlow, I'm blanking on the title just now), particularly the ending which goes along the lines of "Yes, He did. Oh, indeed He did." I still think this story one of the strongest Mormon speculative fiction prose stories I've read yet, although Shayne Bell's "And All Our Banners Flying" printed in the latest IRREANTUM may have judged edged past it. 2) All of Michael Colling's Camlelot/Nauvoo poetic cycle "Taliesin: Epyllion in Anamnesis" definately is in the running for my castaway's bookshelf. Many great moments -- "But when he fell, and we pursued his dream...,/She stayed behind, and would not follow him" (Arthur and Guinevere); "It was...and was not. Even before walls/Rose sunset-high..." (Arthur's Great Hall) -- but my favorite is the devestation of Joseph's/Arthur's death in "Taliesin Overlooks the Ruins of Camelot": And now that he is gone, where is the whiteness on the hill? or stone suns and moons and stars he willed to be? ... 3) Just about all of the play TRAIL OF DREAMS, particularly the Rocky Ridge scene. (Sharp readers might notice I lifted one particular line from TRAIL OF DREAMS in my Draka story: Governor Ford's Machiavellian smirk: "That will have the desired effect.") 4) The pre-FARMS version of Hugh Nibley's THE MYTH MAKERS, particularly the scene where the Moderator/Judge reads through in one clump the entire contradictory litany of anti-Mormon descriptions of that wascal and arch-tweasure digger Joseph Smith, Jr. (Strange how only supposed contradictions by Joseph matter; those made by his critics do not.) I've many other favorite moments, but I truly suspect with the rapid advances Mormon lit is making, many others lie unread (and as yet unwritten) far in the future. --Lee - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "thomasb5" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Dutcher to Film Joseph Smith Movie in Palmyra:Rochester NY WHEC TV10 Date: 02 May 2001 21:13:34 -0500 Actually, I was more amused by what he said when I realized that he is speaking as a normal 19 or 20 year old missionary who probably has not seen much of the world. Actually, I want to know if he received flack from the mission office for giving the quote because to me, it seemed that he was speaking to the media and they were quoting him as though he was speaking for the Church. Rick > I find it very interesting that this missionary only feels that making = > money from a movie is "evil". I wonder if he feels the same way about The = > Work and the Glory or all of the music, videos, plays and "art" that is = > produced by church members. I wonder if he ascribes more acceptable = > motives (faith promotion) to everyone except Dutcher. > > Peter Chamberlain - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] Genealogy in Literature Date: 03 May 2001 07:54:59 -0300 Do you have literature books where genealogy is the central theme? __________________________________________________________________________ Acesso f=E1cil, r=E1pido e ilimitado? Suporte 24hs? R$19,90? S=F3 no AcessoBOL - http://www.bol.com.br/acessobol/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: [AML] GLENN, _One in a Billion_ Date: 03 May 2001 08:36:43 -0600 Just read Sharlee Glenn's ONE IN A BILLION and felt like sharing a = billion cheers. It is a lovely text, and I liked the way the book was = presented with the selected dialogue on the jacket. There are some = classic lines! Especially when the daisy tells the geranium, "I do not = need you." The geranium asks, "Why should I go? You and I could be = friends." However, a classic jealousy hits the little flower--one not = only children feel, that's for sure--one that says "If someone else is = filling the space, there is no place for me." However, it is that = FEELING of jealousy that hurts the daisy. We ALLOW negative feelings to = hurt us! And Sharlee's little sentence hits you hard, "And for the first = time in her life, she felt lonely." Although she was alone, she wasn't = lonely until SHE herself refused love! Also, another of my favorite = lines is: "You cannot get the sunlight you need if you droop." How TRUE! = I am a classic escape artist when it comes to reviewing, but I just = wanted to cheer for this graceful piece. Good going, Sharlee. Sincerely, = Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 03 May 2001 09:29:28 -0600 When we did the _Jane_ play at Marilyn and Bill Brown's theater, several people tried to contact Oprah. The system is this: You go to her website, send her an e-mail, get an immediate response that it will be read by SOMEBODY (resumably the janitor) and then you never hear anything again. Famous people have to have all sorts of gates around their offices and lives or they're inundated. It's understandable, but it does make access hard. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 03 May 2001 12:11:41 -0600 Gee, I feel so loved and supported. Thanks y'all. My honest sense is that the TRILOGY will get national attention at some point. Book 1 is basically an introduction to our characters. The hard issues are only hinted at. Book 2 has information which has surprised even me as I've discovered it. (For example, did you realize that Confederate General Sterling Price was one of the Missouri Militiamen who drove the Mormons out [Chariton Militia], and later refused to "share grub" with members of the Mormon Battalion in Mexico? Did you know he was one of the guards--so named by Parley P. Pratt--who delighted in describing all the vile deeds done against the Mormons, whom Joseph Smith rebuked in Liberty Jail? [Incidentally, Price had just lost an infant daughter at the time of the incident, so I suspect he wasn't his most gentlemanly self.] Did you know he fought side by side with General Sidney Albert Johnston [as in Johnston's army] in the Civil War? And that he gave a rousing Confederate speech in the tiny little Missouri town where Darius Gray's ancestors lived? Did you know that the "Mother of California Civil Rights"--Biddy Smith Mason--was a slave of a Mormon family, and wouldn't have been in San Bernardino to sue for her freedom (a case she won the year before Dred Scott would have made it moot) without the Mormon migration? The more research I do, the more I see that the trilogy is not just Mormon History but U.S. history, and I fully expect it to get national attention when it's completed--or at least when Book 2 is out. I actually want to wait on pursuing the "Big" guys until Book 2 is published (February--Black History Month). I rather think we will get on Oprah, and if we can bring some of our fantastically talented Genesis friends, I think we'll be a hit. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 03 May 2001 13:18:24 -0600 >>> rareyellow@yahoo.com 05/02/01 03:34PM >>> > >My guess, though, is that you are right to bring up >the 'influence to pull this off' question. If there >were someone who had Oprah's or one of her producer's >ear and could informally pitch the story, the chances >of us seeing Darius and Margaret on national >television would jump tremendously. Nobody has a >nephew/niece/cousin/neighbor's child interning at the >show? =20 I bet Gladys Knight could get their attention. Now you just have to get = Gladys Knight's attention. MBA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 03 May 2001 13:00:57 -0600 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Cathy Wilson > > Thom wrote: > > To me, > it seems to say that there must be something wrong with you as a person if > you don't believe or no longer believe. I know there are people > who've left > the church who were offended by a Bishop, or felt constricted by the > teachings of Boyd K. Packer, etc. But I also know people who've left who, > while sitting in Sunday School, had the same > reaction that I do when I listen to Pat Robertson: "What nonsense." > They just flat out don't believe the doctrine anymore. > > YES! Hopefully though, these people don't keep shadow boxing with the > church the rest of their lives. The people that visited us kept rehashing > their differences with the church, rehearsing their disaffectedness. They > don't leave it alone. If you just don't believe anymore, it seems to me > that you'd walk forward without having to wrestle, fight, find fault and > fuss over the doctrines and practices. > > Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson I used to think that pretty much every person who left the church, or who decided that he or she didn't believe in it, had a struggle with some sin that was causing the problem. The church encourages this point of view because we believe that as people sin, they lose the promptings of the Holy Ghost which will keep them alive to spiritual truth. I also think that if people are involved in a behavior (sin) that is not allowed in the church, that deciding not to believe is one way to solve the cognitive dissonance that results. However, I now think that I was wrong before. I agree with Thom that sometimes people do honestly and ethically take issue with the belief system. I don't think it is in any way easy to leave a belief system that has the social dimensions of Mormonism. Membership in the church means connections to other human beings. What about the nonbeliever's mother, who is (probably) daily praying and weekly fasting that her child will return to the fold? What about the angst and pain of the rest of the extended family? What about the well-intended concern of neighbors, friends, and church leaders? All these people are no doubt people the nonbeliever cares about. Nor does he (usually) want to hurt anyone. This causes tremendous dissonance. If one is true to oneself then one has to hurt the people that are most important in one's life. That is why I think people continue to wrestle and fight. It is not like choosing which brand of toothpaste to use. Leaving the church is seen in our doctrine as a true tragedy. To walk away from one's covenants and the promptings of the Holy Ghost is a terrible thing. So, if someone decides to do it, that person has a fight on his hands, probably both external and internal. Gae Lyn Henderson > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Church Problems in Lit (Mod Note) Date: 04 May 2001 10:47:22 -0500 Hi folks, I had written a great, lengthy post about this thread and how it relates to the List's topics, then had my e-mail program crash just when I was about to send it. Oh, well. The short (well, not so short) version is that I'm aware that this thread has the potential for getting into out-of-bounds areas for the List. I think it mostly has avoided doing so thus far, and can continue doing so if we think about the following areas of connection: * What is the effect of different types of text/literature on personal belief--including doctrinal works, history, narratives (true or fictional), etc? Different for different folks, but everything we can say about how this works for us and those we know potentially illuminates some element of Mormon letters and what it can/should accomplish. * How do different people see the same experiences differently, and how is that reflected in the accounts they share of those events? How do we ourselves see and/or describe events differently over time? As several people have pointed out, this is an issue that relates to texts ranging from the Joseph Smith story to Martha Beck's _Expecting Adam_. * What is the nature and origin of the type of personal commitment that is involved in being Mormon? How ought this to be depicted through characters in a literary work? I would remind us all that arguing about what Mormon doctrine is, or whether it is correct, is off-topic for the List. Sharing our own perspectives on our own beliefs, however, and what we have observed of others' beliefs, can be on-topic, in that it helps us understand better the full range of what "being Mormon" entails--surely a worthwhile goal for a List where part of the business is to talk about literary works that attempt to depict Mormons as characters and reflect the Mormon experience. It's largely a difference in tone and emphasis rather than substance. So long as we can avoid becoming either confrontational or judgmental, there's a good chance we won't stray far from our basic area of emphasis. Which means I can continue enjoying the conversation, and not intervene too heavily... Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 03 May 2001 13:29:41 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > Um. If there is such a thing as a "True Church" then there *is* something > wrong with a person who falls away from it. May I suggest that, should you ever be called to re-activate someone in your ward, that you do not let them know you feel this way. One of the most common reasons less actives give for not associating with other Church members is that they (the actives) possess this idea and are often guilty of actually letting the inactive person know they feel this way. As a Seventy who for years ministered to the less active, I heard this complaint more than any other. > If people will leave the True > Church because they are offended by a bishop, felt constricted by Boyd K. > Packer, or because they think that Sunday School lessons are "nonsense" then > there is, by definition, something wrong with them. I contend that, if we are ever able in our works of literature, to hope to touch someone's heart so that they might consider coming back into the fold, we must be able to look upon inactivity or apostasy as one might look upon a person who chooses to join another political party, or goes to a different college than we did, or who is left-handed. As long as we attach a stigma to the "other," it will show up in our writing, despite our best efforts to hide it behind tolerance. There is and always will be the "other" but they are neither better or worse than we are. > That said, since we are all human and we all fail, there is *something* > wrong with all of us. The trick is to keep in mind that we are all children > of God and we can all benefit by drawing closer to Him. But with a belief that, somehow, because I am active, I am "closer" to God than a less active may be, is to re-argue the same question the Apostles had when they asked Jesus, "Which of us will be on your right hand." His answer to them is the same to us. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 03 May 2001 13:41:26 -0600 Cathy Wilson wrote: > > Thom wrote: > > To me, > it seems to say that there must be something wrong with you as a person if > you don't believe or no longer believe. I know there are people who've left > the church who were offended by a Bishop, or felt constricted by the > teachings of Boyd K. Packer, etc. But I also know people who've left who, > while sitting in Sunday School, had the same > reaction that I do when I listen to Pat Robertson: "What nonsense." > They just flat out don't believe the doctrine anymore. > > YES! Hopefully though, these people don't keep shadow boxing with the > church the rest of their lives. The people that visited us kept rehashing > their differences with the church, rehearsing their disaffectedness. They > don't leave it alone. If you just don't believe anymore, it seems to me > that you'd walk forward without having to wrestle, fight, find fault and > fuss over the doctrines and practices. This is a phase in a person's disaffection. It's similar to what some people experience when they first join the Church (my wife and I among them): Everyone they meet is a potential convert, and it takes a while to come to an understanding that not everyone will believe just because YOU do. Those who become disaffected often feel betrayed, much like a spurned lover. Their emotions are keen. They suffer from separation anxiety. They are using you to get the Church out of their system. I know you've been divorced but I don't know if you went through what some divorced people have: initially, all they can think about is the "wrong" done to them by the other person. Eventually, they learn to deal with their new situation and move on. I submit that this is what is happening to your friends. You just happen to be there at the point when the "divorce" is fresh. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: Re: [AML] Genealogy in Literature Date: 04 May 2001 04:51:51 +0900 As far as fiction is concerned, G. G. Vandegraff wrote two novels for Deseret Book which were advertised as "Genealogical thrillers". Cankered Roots (1994), and Of Deadly Descent (1996). I have no idea how good they are. Andrew Hall >From: "renatorigo" > >Do you have literature books where genealogy is the >central theme? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 03 May 2001 14:12:26 -0600 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jacob Proffitt > Um. If there is such a thing as a "True Church" then there *is* something > wrong with a person who falls away from it. If people will leave the True > Church because they are offended by a bishop, felt constricted by Boyd K. > Packer, or because they think that Sunday School lessons are > "nonsense" then > there is, by definition, something wrong with them. Yes. I think it could be compared to someone getting diabetes. I know people who have acquired type II (adult onset diabetes). The doctor has told them to diet and exercise. I heard a doctor say that the diabetes could be virtually reversed (no longer exist) if the people were willing to strictly observe these lifestyle changes. However, even with the health risk and complications of diabetes facing them, many people are not willing to consistently exercise and change their diet. > > That said, since we are all human and we all fail, there is *something* > wrong with all of us. The trick is to keep in mind that we are > all children > of God and we can all benefit by drawing closer to Him. > Because we are all human and subject to spiritual disease, then some people leave the true church at some point in their lives and suffer the consequences. However, if, for the sake of argument, the church is not true, then these same people would be the ones with truth on their side. It is difficult for me to be absolutely 100 percent certain that I am right all the time. I try to keep my mind open for new evidence if it comes up. At any given time, I can only go by what my experience has taught me and what I believe to be true. I think it is ethical to state one's beliefs and what one knows (share one's testimony). I remember when I was a student at BYU and heard a talk by Paul Dunn. He stated that if ever at any time of our lives we had doubts about the church, we could think back onto his testimony and depend on its rock-solid nature. At the time I found that very comforting because I daily struggled with ascertaining with certainty what I believed. When I learned later that he had used stories and fictional accounts to make his points, then I wondered about the rock-solid nature of truth. I still believe that stories, and Elder Dunn's stories in particular, tell truths and do so very powerfully. I remember a talk he gave in our Stake Conference about 16 years ago in which he encouraged us not to be extremists in the gospel, not to suddenly take up eating nothing but whole wheat and elimiinate other foods from our diet, etc. I agree with what he said. I have to listen to people whose beliefs differ from mine and at least consider that they may be right. It is my nature to continue to struggle when other people seem to be so certain. Of course, if I didn't believe I was right I wouldn't bother to say anything myself. Gae Lyn - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 03 May 2001 14:00:57 -0700 Margaret wrote: > This past weekend was remarkable. My co-author and I were invited to > participate in the HUGE book festival at UCLA. We were invited by a > bookstore which is not affiliated with the Church. . . . Which bookstore was it? Those on the list who live in Southern Cal. might want to patronize it, as well as those like me who might be visiting LA. Thanks, Frank Maxwell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 03 May 2001 18:29:43 -0300 [MOD: Compilation post.] > I really believe that if you don=B4t believe in the doctrine anymore you should keep studying the scriptures, archeology, and other sciences...It makes sense.... TRY IT AGAIN...GIVE ANOTHER CHANCE... People say here, in Brazil: If advices were good people didn=B4t give them...but sold them.... This is a very expensive one!!! :-) Renato Rigo > For criticizing a book we use our reason, to understand the social environment, the historical context, the way of creating caracters and other details of literature creation... For Doctrine we have to use our heart and our spirit...by the fruit of the doctrine we are going to know if it=B4s good or not...true or false... Renato Rigo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re:[AML] Women Lawyers (was: THAYER) Date: 03 May 2001 18:45:38 -0300 > WE ARE LOSING THE WOMEN WRITERS TO LAW SCHOOL BECAUSE IT=B4S NECESSARY LESS CREATIVITY TO WRITE LAWS THAN WRITING LITERATURE BOOKS...THE EASY WAY... IN BRAZIL WE HAVE THE SAME...THEY GO TO LAW SCHOOL AND JORNALISM SCHOOL [Renato Rigo] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] HOWARD Wins Nebula Award Date: 03 May 2001 16:00:41 -0600 Nebula Winners Announced The 2000 Nebula Awards were announced April 28 at a ceremony at the Beverly Hilton Hotel in Beverly Hills, Calif. The awards are voted on by members of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, who honor their peers in the categories of best novel, best novelette, best novella, best short story, and best script. The Nebulas are presented annually for works published in the previous calendar year. Best Script: Galaxy Quest by Robert Gordon and David Howard Galaxy Quest also received a Hugo Award last year, making Howard the second Latter-day Saint to win both of the top sf awards. For more info, see http://www.scifi.com/sfw/current/news.html Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Writing about Mormon Character Date: 03 May 2001 15:09:26 -0700 I'm writing non-fiction this season, so the question I'm about to pose is of only peripheral interest to me. I'm guessing, though, it may be central to the founding of AML. The setup: Fifteen years ago, you got to pick your audience. You could either write to Latter-day Saints, and exclude "the world," or you could write to the "world" and disguise the faith of your Mormon characters. The question (and yes, I know it's only theoretical to many of us): When you write to "the world," do you still feel compelled to disguise your characters' Mormon faith? What's your evaluation of the current state of The Question? Let me give you a f'instance: You have a character who for some reason needs to pass by a temple. Or even enter one. Let's say it's a central plot point. You handle this plot point by: 1. Carefully explaining what a temple is, and what it means to the character's faith. 2. Assuming your reader knows what a temple is, and how it functions, and simply proceeding as though it's familiar. 3. Setting your story in history. Nineteenth-century Mormons are more interesting, or easier to write about, than are contemporary Mormons. 4. Rewriting the whole story so that your character is, say, Jewish. Or Muslim. Or an Alien. Or an elf. 5. Targeting your story at an LDS audience. I'm supposing most LDS writers still pick method four...and that that explains why so many LDS writers do S.F....Of the five choices, it's actually easier (I'll be charitable: "more satisfying") to write about Mormons disguised as aliens than it is to create contemporary fictional Mormon characters and sell the story to a mainstream audience. Can Mormons write about Mormons as well as Jews can write about Jews? --lmg --------- WHAT DO WE DO? We homeschool! Here's how: "Homeschool Your Child for Free." Order your copy today, from Amazon.com. --------- . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merlyn J Clarke Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 03 May 2001 23:16:07 -0400 Isn't the issue of dealing with problems in church history an extension of whether or not we have an ability to deal with complexity, in general? And are we not, as Mormons, too inclined to prefer simplicity, to be oblivious to the fact that simplicity is rarely a reflexion of reality and probably is not even preferable? To a considerable extent, the preference for simplicity sets us up for disillusionment. > I wonder if much of this attitude is not fostered by Mormon literature, both official and unofficial, which tends to paint our history in simplistic terms, portray characters that are not real, or that always must come out right in testimony building ways. > One of the problems we face, as Mormons, unlike more conventional Christians who need only believe in the highly "mythologized" Jesus Christ, is that our faith must rest in large part upon the actions and teachings of some very knowable mortals: Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, etc. There is a strong inclination among many members, often with official encouragement, to mythologize church leaders. These men, we insist, were prophets. Yet, as do all humans, they had warts, big ones. And these can be known. We do ourselves a disservice, expose ourselves to certain dangers, when we sanitize them, because, as the little school boy said to his mother when she warned him not to believe in evolution, "But they've found the bones." I wonder if we couldn't develop a typology of reactions which people exhibit regarding the church: 1. those who buy into the myth, and then hermetically seal themselves off from anything that would disturb this myth. These would be like hot house plants. They live, but their fruit is tasteless and bland. They remain very dependent upon the hothouse. They never get beyond believing in Santa Claus, so to speak. 2. those who initially accept the myth, but then discover the bones, and decide they've been had, and turn away. 3. those who are exposed to the bones right away, and are not interested in going any further. 4. those for whom the myth has appeal, but who are skeptical enough to know that the myth can not possibly be the whole story. However they are intrigued enough to root around among the bones and discover the precious stones. These are the ones who become rock solid, who are not disappointed or shaken by "discoveries," and who can grow to maturity and produce highly flavorful fruit. Unfortunately, this group may not always be appreciated because they remain sober when others are exibiting exubrance, tend to be independent minded, and are inclined to wander uncomfortably far afield from the hot house. I believe Christ gave us a parable that roughly parallels these categories--tho admittedly not with quite the same spin. >Merlyn Clarke > > >> - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Arts Fortify Children Against Evil, Violence (Deseret News, April 26, 2001) Date: 03 May 2001 22:20:25 -0500 [For Thom, who wondered if he had died and gone to heaven, and others, who are still verbalizing their thoughts, AML has permission to forward to the list Deseret News articles that pertain to Mormon Letters.] Thursday, April 26, 2001 Deseret News Life and Family Arts fortify children against evil, violence, BYU panelists says By Carma Wadley Deseret News senior writer The arts stimulate creativity, discovery and self-expression. The arts help communicate across cultures. The arts stimulate the ability to learn. And the arts can strengthen families, said Kenneth Crossley, director of Brigham Young University's Performing Arts Series. Crossley served as moderator of a panel discussion that looked at the importance of arts in the family and the role of the family in arts as part of BYU's recent Family Expo conference. Panel members were Ronald Brough, professor of music; Marion Bentley, professor of theater; and Susan Kenney, professor of music with an emphasis on children, all at BYU; and Johann Wondra, former General Secretary of the Burgtheater in Vienna and now an area authority with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The arts, said Wondra, are as important as food to a body's well-being. "We are encouraged to have a food supply on hand, but we also need an arts supply. We need to store good pictures and music and literature. I'm convinced that the arts help children be fortified against the evils of our time, help them find solid ground in our cultural swamp." Wondra is not alone in these convictions. Kenney cited remarks by journalist Bill Moyers. "He talked about the disturbing statistics of violence in our culture and said that he felt our children are not having enough experience with beautiful things. They are not getting enough options, and if they don't have options, too often they take the easy route, which is violence. "The arts bring beauty into our lives and give us options." Academic research is supporting the value of arts, said panel members. Recent studies have found that students who have experienced arts in the home score 30 percent higher on academic skills tests than students who haven't had involvement with the arts. Another study found the students who studied arts scored 45 percent higher on verbal skills and 32 percent higher on math on their SAT scores. The arts are important, said Brough, "but the current level of exposure to arts in schools is not enough. There are so many ways to spend time nowadays, parents need to provide direction and be sure their children are exposed to the arts." How is the best way to do that? Panel members had several suggestions: Start early. "A whole new body of research is telling us what we innately know," says Kenney: "Arts training should begin at birth." Or even before birth. In fact, she says, ideal arts training begins nine months before the birth of the mother - because mothers who are artistic or musical will bring that to their children. But it's never too early. "Sing to your baby. Provide visual stimulation. Dance with your child. Act out nursery rhymes," she says. "Physiologists are now able to measure the ways the brain changes while it is participating in arts activities. Those are positive and long-lasting changes." Create an artistic climate in the family. Look for opportunities to expose children to the arts. Expose children to good music and literature, said Wondra. He remembers a time he and his wife had to drive 500 miles with their children, ranging from 1 1/2-7 years of age. "It was hot; there was a lot of traffic. So my wife brought along an epic German poem to read to them. You might not think that poetry would be the best thing, but they all were fascinated. See what an influence mothers can have?" "Children will be interested in what their parents are interested in," added Bentley. Look for a variety of arts options. Taking the whole family to arts productions can be expensive, admitted Crossley, "but if you shop around, you'll find that some wonderful opportunities exist. Many groups offer family passes or special discounts." The Utah Symphony offers special family concerts. Many theater groups do family-oriented productions. Check out high school plays and concerts. Visit museums. Crossley knows one family from Delta who subscribed to Ballet West's season. "They got matinee tickets, and the parents took turns bringing the children up to the ballet." Bring arts to the child's level. Bentley has taken preschoolers to a production of "Hamlet" and second graders to "Othello." The kids got to go up on stage. They talked about what it was like to be a boy in Denmark. They discovered that "Hamlet" was a lot like Disney's "The Lion King." And then they got to write and produce a play of their own, which further helped bring it to their level. Bentley has a 3-year-old grandchild who has become very interested in visual arts. "His favorite book is the guide to the Louvre Museum. My wife sits down with him and they go through it - but on his level. His favorite painting is one of Louis XIV, but he calls it the 'dancing Louie.' He loves Salvador Dali's mustache." Bentley remembered being on an art museum tour with a group of youngsters. "The guide asked them what they were interested in, and they said frogs! Well, she said, 'We're going to go through the museum and look for frogs.' Did they see any? No. But they saw a lot of art, and they were interested." Recognize your budding artists' achievements, he urged. "They love attention. Hang up every painting on a bulletin board. Color with them. Whatever their level of activity, keep them busy." Do it together. Getting your child interested in making art can sometimes be a challenge, said Kenney, and it's sometimes hard to know how far to push a child. But, too often, this is how practice goes, she said. "You put your child at the piano and tell him to practice while you go off and do something else." Much better, she said, would be sitting side-by-side while he practices. If you don't play the piano or whatever instrument the child is learning, you could take lessons, too, she said. "Let the child see you practice." Work together, said Brough. "That's much more effective than just giving assignments." He knows that from the experience he has had with his own family band. Try to keep kids motivated, says Kenney. But there may come a time when you have to quit. "You have to be sensitive to your own child," she said. Maybe you'll want to try something different. Maybe they won't ever turn into performers. But, at least, by exposure to the arts, they can become appreciators. And their lives will be richer for it. E-MAIL: carma@desnews.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 04 May 2001 01:21:38 -0600 Andrew Hall wrote: > I was reading a scholarly introduction in a recent publication of Lew > Wallace's Ben-Hur, > The 1925 silant film version was > the first authorized version, and I assume an actor playing Christ appeared > in it. It was a blockbuster. Of course most of us know the 1959 version. > Apparently many hold the 1925 version to be better. Not possible. It didn't star Charlton Heston. > Still there is some nervousness about depicting ordinances on film. We > have talked here on the list about some negative reaction to God's Army's > depiction of the healing and the baptisms, and now some reaction to Brigham > City's scene depicting the passing of the sacrament. > Any comments? I have comments, but I can't say them, because Jonathan would bounce them back to me faster than bat sonar bounces off a moth. How can I express myself tactfully, when I'm becoming so exasperated at this attitude that I'm ready to start slapping sense into people? If the energy used in this church to judge our fellow Saints could be harnessed, California would have no energy shortage. How does a church which claims to represent the God of Truth and fight against the Father of Lies have so many people in it who think depicting truth in art is an evil thing? When did "truthful," "accurate," or "factual" stop being sufficient justifications in and of themselves? That was as tactful as I can get. You should have heard what I was thinking. [MOD: I appreciate your restraint!] -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: InteliQuest Media Corporation (by way of Ronn Blankenship ) Subject: [AML] MN Book of Mormon Epic to Be Produced for Giant (IMAX) Screen Date: 04 May 2001 04:57:57 -0500 From Mormon-News: See footer for instructions on joining and leaving this list. Do you have an opinion on this news item? Send your comment to letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com Book of Mormon Epic to Be Produced for Giant (IMAX) Screen Release SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- A group of accomplished LDS filmmakers have begun development on the first of a series of epic motion pictures based on stories from the Book of Mormon. The slate of films will be presented in the large screen format (i.e., IMAX). The first movie in the series,"Safe Passage," dramatically portrays the trial-laden exodus of Lehi's family from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., across the life-threatening Arabian desert and the stunning oceanic crossing, to the safety of the new world. The production will utilize the talent of seasoned LDS filmmakers and other top industry professionals. Headed by Steven DeVore, founder of SyberVision Systems, the group consists of Scott Swofford (Vineyard Productions), Quinn Coleman (Warner Bros), Peter Johnson (award-winning director) and Reed Smoot, (award-winning cinematographer). Executive producer DeVore is known for a $25,000 budgeted video documentary he wrote and produced in 1986 that resulted in over $125 million in revenues. Swofford has extensive production experience resulting in acclaimed and financially successful large format commercial films as well as popular LDS themed productions such as the current "Testaments." Smoot is one of the most prolific photographers of large format films. He has shot many of the most popular IMAX films, including Cirque de Soleil's "Journey of Man," "Galapagos," and, teaming with Swofford, "Mysteries of Egypt," and the current IMAX hit, "Shackleton's Antarctic Adventrue." Coleman, head of Worldwide Co-Productions and Acquisitions for Warner Bros. Studios, has been responsible for bringing many popular films to the theater, the most recent being the highly acclaimed "The Dish," one of Australia's top grossing domestic hits. Johnson, who was recruited from Hollywood in 1983 to revamp the academic film program at BYU and later to upgrade the BYU Motion Picture Studio, has written and directed films for television, most notably the regional EMMY award-winning, "A More Perfect Union," which was also nominated for a national EMMY. Formerly Executive Producer with the Audiovisual Department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Johnson also directed the highly acclaimed and popular "Mountain of the Lord." "This is an exciting opportunity," states DeVore "to work with some of the most accomplished LDS filmmakers to bring to life tales from this special book. The giant screen format (eight story high screen) will enable audiences to vicariously experience one of the world's greatest stories on the world's largest screen." Coleman believes that the LDS worldwide audience and backend video sales are significant enough to profitably support the film's multi-million dollar million budget. "We have done our homework, analyzed the numbers," claims Coleman, "and feel that the large screen LDS epic is a winner, especially when you factor in word-of-mouth and video sales." "Safe Passage" is targeted for release in mid-2002. DeVore and Johnson are currently in production on the documentary version of Lehi's journey from Jerusalem to ancient America. Working in association with the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies at BYU (FARMS), they will spend a month in Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Jerusalem filming the documentary prelude to the large screen dramatic version. Also in development from the producers are other LDS-themed epic films for the large screen including the story of the restoration and the epic pioneer journey. ### Text: Mormon News Submission >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rosemary Pollock (by way of Ronn Blankenship ) Subject: [AML] MN Living Scriptures Video Series Gets Attention at Film Date: 04 May 2001 04:59:10 -0500 From Mormon-News: See footer for instructions on joining and leaving this list. Do you have an opinion on this news item? Send your comment to letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com Living Scriptures Video Series Gets Attention at Film Sites CASSVILLE, WISCONSIN -- Three-time Oscar winner Jack Nicholson may have to wait for his chance to film a new movie while history is being recorded by Heber J. Grant, Lorenzo Snow and Harold B. Lee. The prophets will be filming first, as the historical site of the Stuhr Museum in Grand Island, Nebraska is going Hollywood. The drama, part of a 14-episode series being filmed by "The Living Scriptures," follows the lives of the prophets of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Trek West Inc., which produces historical films, will oversee the production of the biographical sketches that will be re-enacted using many of the original sites. Historic Site Director, Allen Schroeder, said an entourage of about 30 will be on hand for the filming, along with 25 local extras. "Filming will take place at select locations that represent the true look and feel of the area," Schroeder said. "That is where Stonefield comes into the picture." Stonefield represents the estate of Nelson Dewey, Wisconsin's first governor who farmed 2,000 acres below the Mississippi River bluffs during the mid-1800s. In 1953, the area surrounding Dewey's home was designated a historical site and the home is now the State Agricultural Museum. The farming village and agricultural museum will officially open to the public May 26 to September 30. An open house, with free admission to Stonefield and the adjacent Nelson Dewey State Park will be held on June 3, long after Hollywood has gone. "We were happy to be able to accommodate them," he said. "They seemed very professional and upbeat when I met them, and the project should be a good use of our space." Stuhr Executive Director, Fred Goss, conducted negotiations with Trek-West in mid-February. Dan Thomas, associate producer of the series said, "What we were looking for was a place that had a certain look and feel. Stuhr had it." We've been filming all year, but we had to be creative with our schedules." Bishop Michael McCain and his wife, Kasey got a call from the people at Trek-West asking for extras to work in the film. "I think about everybody except one person said they could do it," Kasey said. "We're from Nebraska, we're not from Los Angeles," Bishop McCain added. Kasey McCain noted that a scene, which may only be worth two or three minutes of dialogue, took 45 minutes to an hour to shoot. "I'll probably never see myself on film" joked Kiri McClellan, an aspiring actress and student at Westridge Middle School. Ben Goates of Salt Lake City is portraying his grandfather, Harold B. Lee, during his life from the age of 17 to 24. When the company leaves Nebraska, he believes the schedule calls for filming in Wisconsin and Missouri and some filming will be done in Europe in early summer and in Hawaii in late summer. Goates, a high school senior, is not upset at getting a little time away from school. The Living Scriptures will market and distribute the film through a wide distribution of videos available by direct purchase or through religious book stores. Kasey McCain was proud of her involvement in the events being portrayed in the series. She noted that some of her ancestors had been involved and she saw it as a "recreation of what they did for me." Sources: Company picks Stonefield site for filming Dubuque IA Telegraph Herald 30Apr01 A2 http://www.THonline.com/News/04302001/TriState/40381.htm By Terry Morgan North of Cassville: Video series explores the lives of prophets for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Docudrama films at Stuhr Museum Hastings NE KHAS TV5 26Apr01 A2 http://www.msnbc.com/local/khas/48334.asp Filming of religious docudrama to begin at Stuhr Grand Island NE Independent 24Apr01 A2 http://www.theindependent.com/stories/042401/new_stuhr24.html By Mike Bockoven: The Independent Filming at Stuhr Museum 04/26/01 Grand Island NE Independent 26Apr01 A2 http://www.theindependent.com/stories/042601/new_stuhr26.html By Harold Reutter: The Independent >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 04 May 2001 10:00:34 -0600 2000+ Bookstore, located at 310 Pine in Long Beach. (They had a large tent at the UCLA campus.) Frank Maxwell wrote: > Margaret wrote: > > > This past weekend was remarkable. My co-author and I were invited to > > participate in the HUGE book festival at UCLA. We were invited by a > > bookstore which is not affiliated with the Church. . . . > > Which bookstore was it? Those on the list who live in Southern Cal. might > want to patronize it, as well as those like me who might be visiting LA. > > Thanks, > Frank Maxwell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] You Must See J. Golden... Date: 04 May 2001 10:17:31 -0600 ... opening tonight at the UVSC Black Box theatre. Why? First of all, it stars Marvin Payne, who is, in one word, incredible. He expertly adopts the high-pitched voice of J. Golden, and is very convincing from the moment he appears. For those of who know Marvin as a wonderful singer, one scene in the show is particularly memorable. J. Golden wasn't the world's greatest singer, and Marvin does a very good job of singing off-key. I've know Marvin for years but there were times during this show when I swear I saw J. Golden's face take over. A robust man in his early 50's, Marvin has all the old-age moves of J. Golden down to a "T:" the shuffling walk, the measured steps, and the tentative searching to make sure he's actually standing in front of a chair before collapsing into it, a frail bag of bones obviously glad to get off his feet. Second, J. Golden (with the possible exception of LaGrande Richards) was one of the last of the great Church orators. Though similar to Richards in presence, Golden's talks are peppered with cowboy vernacular and, yes, the occasional swear word, for which Golden profusely apologizes but just can't seem to curtail. He was the common man's General Authority, in that he appears to be no better or worse than the average rank and file member. (In one of the scenes, Golden talks about why he probably became a General Authority: "There are three kinds of "shuns" in the Church. Inspira-shun, Revela-shun, and Rela-shun. I don't think I'd ever have gotten this far in the Church if my last name wasn't Kimball.") Third, the play is written by James Arrington, he of Brother Brigham and Farley Family fame. James, formerly a member of this very list, and now head of the theatre department at UVSC, has written a marvelously funny, moving, and inspirational monologue about one of the great characters of the Restoration. James' typical meticulous research reveals at least three J. Golden Kimball stories that never actually happened and two that did, but not quite in the way they've been perpetuated. James has directed the show as well, and the attention to detail in Golden's movements (his difficulty rising from a chair, for instance) is by itself a lesson in precise direction. Fourth, the show is the first in what is being billed as the "First Annual Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC." This unique partnership between playwrights and an institution of learning will hopefully pave the way for more new and original works of theatrical art of interest to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you care about Mormon literature (and especially Mormon theatre), you should go see J. Golden. You will not be disappointed. J. Golden plays at the UVSC Black Box Theatre on Fridays, Saturdays, and Mondays, from May 4 through May 19. Call the UVSC box office, 222-8797, to purchase tickets, or for more information. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] My Oops Date: 08 May 2001 16:15:59 -0500 Folks, Nothing has gone out over AML-List for the past several days due to a combination of two factors, both of them my fault. First, I've been very busy and only had time for a brief session with AML-List yesterday. Second, during that brief session, I made a mistake that was replicated with every single post I sent out, which bounced them all back to me. I'm resending those and hope to either get caught up or fill up the net with 30 posts today. Anyway, apologies particularly to those of you who have sent in posts and wondering why they haven't appeared. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Hatch Subject: [AML] Re: LA Book Festival Date: 04 May 2001 09:08:49 -0700 >MBA wrote: >I bet Gladys Knight could get their attention. Now you just have to get = >Gladys Knight's attention. There you go! Wouldn't that be an incredible show? Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 04 May 2001 10:15:08 -0600 Gee, Michael, I wanted to hear what you were really thinking. Another quick observation: My mother reported to me that some of her Mission President type friends really RESENT "God's Army." Why? Because (according to them--though this seems a bit unlikely to me) missionaries are portrayed as not being solidly grounded in their faith. As the report goes, potential investigators feel that Dutcher has shown them REAL missionaries, who have the same struggles with faith common to us all, and so must not truly have anything of value to offer. When my students discussed "God's Army" last semester, one said that she hated it because it was so "anti-Mormon." If what my mother reports were true, it would indicate that Mormon art which contains ANYTHING outside our orthodox mythology (and even our pretenses) can alienate not only Mormons but potential Mormons. My own feeling is that these reports are greatly exaggerated. Wish Richard Dutcher were on the list. I'd like to hear what kinds of responses (besides the predictable reviews) he's gotten from non-Mormons. Now, as to his depiction of Mormon ordinances--sorry, but CES videos depict them too. That particular "font" won't hold water. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 04 May 2001 10:28:42 -0600 So good, Gae Lyn. One of my novels (ROYAL HOUSE) is about the hotel Paul Dunn's parents owned for a short time. I even think he was born while they were there! (The Roberts hotel in Provo.) I was going to write a novel about Paul Dunn, because his story is SO POWERFUL and has such a possibility for a great piece of literature. Haven't yet. Maybe I still will. But the message is the same. The TRUTH comes through the stories! (Or YOU write it!) Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 04 May 2001 10:40:17 -0600 I have an idea! If everybody on the list would write to Harpo Productions (below) and tell them what a fantastic thing is happening, we might make a dent! I'm serious! Let's get some agreement and do it near the same time. I will certainly be willing to write a pitch letter! I love the book! But I think Margaret is right, it ought to be about the time the second book comes out. We have enough time to agree on writing and get ourselves organized! Marilyn Brown > > A quick unsatisfying answer. To get on the show, send > a pitch letter to: > > Harpo Productions > P. O. Box 909715 > Chicago, IL 60607 > [snip] > > ~~William Morris - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Writing about Mormon Character Date: 04 May 2001 11:38:15 -0500 "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" wrote: > > > I'm supposing most LDS writers still pick method four...and that that > explains why so many LDS writers do S.F....Of the five choices, it's > actually easier (I'll be charitable: "more satisfying") to write about > Mormons disguised as aliens than it is to create contemporary fictional > Mormon characters and sell the story to a mainstream audience. > > Can Mormons write about Mormons as well as Jews can write about Jews? > > --lmg I recently needed a Psychologist (character) to be one who believed in Celibacy till marriage. He became an LDS Psychologist because I could write about what he felt and believed. He needed to relate to the young man who is the main character of the book. When a Catholic friend was reading the proof he wrote in the margin..."Enlarge for me why he feels the way he does and what being LDS is all about. You say he is a Bishop on Sundays what does that mean? How can he be a Bishop and still be a Psychologist?".... So I added 500 words to the book. The Psychologist has a family of course but they are the only LDS in the novel. It is not SF. I believe we are at a time in the World, when readership has some understanding of what "Mormons" are about. I see no reason to hide. I fully intend to continue to write for more than an LDS Market. But it is my intent to be sure that my Bishop could read what I write without being embarrassed or thinking he might need to call me in for a personal interview. So it should be reading for all whether LDS or not. -- Craig Huls Huls & Associates email:dcraigh@onramp.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Samuel Brunson" Subject: [AML] YOUNG and GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (Review) Date: 03 May 2001 18:35:04 -0600 Margaret Blair Young and Darius Aidan Gray. _One More River to Cross_. Bookcraft, 2000. Hardcover: 337 pp. $19.95. [Reviewed by Sam Brunson] In 1831, Elijah Abel, together with his mother and brothers, left his life of slavery for the free North. In 1832 he was baptized a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In 1841, Jane Manning joined the same church, and later helped in the conversion of her family. All of them ended up, at different times, joining the Saints, where they all knew Joseph Smith, Jr., and all helped in the building of Zion, literally (Elijah worked on the Kirtland temple) and figuratively (as they helped themselves, their families, and their neighbors become better Saints). _One More River to Cross_ is a fictional, not-quite-interweaving introduction to these (and other--Young and Gray introduce Isaac James, Jane's eventual husband, Oscar Crosby, Hark Lay, and Green Flake, men who are both slaves to Latter-day Saints and Saints themselves, and even Louis Gray, one of Darius's ancestors) early African-American Saints, detailing their lives before the Church, their conversions, and subsequent challenges and victories as members of a Zion people. The book's plot mirrors LDS history in its gatherings and dispersals, its dancing and dying. All of the major events, from Kirtland to Nauvoo to the Martyrdom to Winter Quarters to Salt Lake, should be generally familiar to members of the Church, and the plot is as centered around these major events as I'd imagine any LDS historical novel covering the years 1831 to 1848 would be. Instead of focusing on the history we know, though, it serves as the backdrop as Young and Gray tell the stories most of us have never heard, about early Saints we're not familiar with. _One More River to Cross_ has a kind of _Phantom Menace_ feel to it: it's a fun ride, but it's there more to set things up for the real action, which comes later. A summary of the plot would be next to impossible--many of the main characters never meet in this book. Rather than unity of action, what makes _One More River to Cross_ cohesive is unity of theme. African-Americans discover the LDS church and go to join the Saints. Arriving at Zion, they find it is populated by people. Some of these people--notably the Smith family--are welcoming and loving--Brother Elijah works on the temple side-by-side with Father Smith and the Mannings are welcomed into Joseph's Nauvoo home. Sadly, others of the Saints still harbor racist views that weren't washed away at their baptism. The Saints we're introduced to, then, don't merely have to stand strong in the face of mobs and Gentiles-they have to stand strong in the face of their fellowcitizens of the household of God. All of the history and research that went into the novel--and there's plenty, with a five-page bibliography closing the book--is augmented by the considerable imaginations of its authors. They discover where their characters were at any given time, add excerpts from diaries and published material, then fill in the remaining gaps with what the characters may well have been thinking and doing. The incorporation of actual recorded statements into fictional conversations produces some of the most enjoyable moments in the book. "So," said Joseph. "You ready to join God's purpose and open your ears?" "Sir?" "You need to be baptized." Elijah squirmed. "Now listen, sir--Brother Joseph. You should know. I ain't what you might call a-a full righteous man. I--I swears sometimes." Joseph's face went stern. "No! You swear? I had no idea." He wagged his head like disappointment itself. Then his face broke into another full grin. "I love the man who swears a stream as long as my arm-provided he's good-hearted. I love that man much better than the smooth-faced hypocrite." (43-44) We learn in the Notes at the end of the chapter that Joseph Smith really did say that he loved the man who swears, etc. Which brings me to the Notes at the end of each chapter. Each chapter ends with notes offering the authors' sources for history, for philosophies, for quotations, and for anything else they used. It's kind of _Pop-Up Video_-ish, offering the authors' secret information in real time. I found, as I read, that I'd look forward to getting to the Notes to see what had really been said and what the authors made up. But the Notes are a two-edged sword; while enjoyable and educating, they suggest the book's biggest weakness: it can't decide if it's history or fiction. Several times the Notes repeat exactly what happened in the chapter, only from Jane's history and in her words. And at times they suggest that the authors don't trust the reader, such as at the end of Chapter 7: "The reader should note that any apparently harsh judgment of Christopher Merkley is manufactured in Elijah's mind at a stressful time. All historical evidence indicates that Christopher Merkley was a devoted Latter-day Saint" (89). Writing fiction using factual characters can be tricky, and entails certain responsibilities, not the least of which is to trust the reader to recognize the fiction in the characters' actions and perceptions. Margaret and Darius have done a marvelous job of using real people as fictional characters. Reading, and especially in light of that note, I wanted them to be more confident that they'd done their job and more trusting that I'd do mine. This lack of trust got in my way as I read, but is the only major flaw in an otherwise entertaining and informative book. It's narrated by a voice reminiscent of Toni Morrison's narrator in _Jazz_, a black voice that, while not an actor in the book, still implicates itself and the reader, making us part of the world. It reads easily and flows comfortably, with a skill in writing that I'd like to see more prominent in LDS writing. I.e., it doesn't sacrifice art and craft just because it has a good message. The book is written in an omniscient third-person, getting inside the head of whomever we're reading about at any given time, and in the heads of separate people in the same chapter. I don't know if that's standard fare in historical fiction--the only historical fiction I've read in the last ten or more years is Charles Frazier's _Cold Mountain_--but it took some getting used to after the late-twentieth century literary fiction I usually read. The book's design, as well as the fact that it's the first of a series, brings to mind _Children of the Promise_ and _The Work and the Glory_ and suggest that members of the LDS church are the intended audience. Beyond that, it takes for granted that the reader is familiar with Joseph Smith, Kirtland, Nauvoo, and the LDS exodus. All of which makes the reading smoother. I don't know that the lack of explanation would make it difficult for a non-LDS reader to follow, but it suggests that they are not the target audience. Finally, a couple completely subjective observations (as though the preceding wasn't subjective enough): I enjoyed reading the book. I used it as a break from Don DeLillo's _Underworld_. Then I bought the Nick Hornby-edited _Speaking With the Angel_ (which, by the way, has nothing to do with angels and some of which is quite vulgar--it's excellent, but be warned) and used it as a break from _One More River to Cross_. This novel has not converted me to LDS literature (of which my only true love is Darrell Spencer) or to historical fiction. But neither has it turned me off to their potential. I really and honestly enjoyed reading it--I consider the time spent worth my while and the knowledge gained also worth my while. Sam Brunson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 04 May 2001 10:41:43 -0600 Today a New York Times reviewer wrote: "Brigham City, like God's Army, may proselytize for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but Brigham City is also an example of concise, skillful filmmaking." I find that an astonishing admission. He also called the movie "engrossing" and the performances "impeccable." [Chris Bigelow] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Writing about Mormon Character Date: 04 May 2001 12:07:04 -0500 At 03:09 PM 5/3/01 -0700, LauraMeary wrote: >You have a character who for some reason needs to pass by a temple. Or even >enter one. Let's say it's a central plot point. You handle this plot point by: > >1. Carefully explaining what a temple is, and what it means to the >character's faith. > >2. Assuming your reader knows what a temple is, and how it functions, and >simply proceeding as though it's familiar. > >3. Setting your story in history. Nineteenth-century Mormons are more >interesting, or easier to write about, than are contemporary Mormons. > >4. Rewriting the whole story so that your character is, say, Jewish. Or >Muslim. Or an Alien. Or an elf. > >5. Targeting your story at an LDS audience. > >I'm supposing most LDS writers still pick method four...and that that >explains why so many LDS writers do S.F....Of the five choices, it's >actually easier (I'll be charitable: "more satisfying") to write about >Mormons disguised as aliens than it is to create contemporary fictional >Mormon characters and sell the story to a mainstream audience. Perhaps my answer will mean less because I seldom write about contemporary characters for a mainstream audience, but that's because I happen to prefer far-out ideas rather than "li-fi" (as OSC names it). That said . . . In some of my earliest writing, I would have probably done (1). I would often stop the action while one character explained some concept or other to the point where the friends who read and commented on my mss. got in the habit of labeling such passages "math lesson," "astronomy lesson," "history lesson," etc. I think every beginning writer makes that mistake. (2) is the better approach. Gene Roddenberry once explained that he did not have to make Captain Kirk explain what a phaser does and how it works before he used it any more than a character in a contemporary police drama would have to explain what a revolver is and how it works before he uses it: in either case, just have the character draw the weapon and shoot, and the results will explain it well enough to the audience. That said, there's nothing wrong with (3), (4), or (5), if your main purpose is to write in that specialized genre because you want to. I won't belabor the obvious to the members of this group by making any lengthy remarks about how one would need to be careful in what one said about what goes on inside the temple in your example. I am reading your question in the larger sense, e.g., what if the character needs to pass by or go into the local ward house on a Sunday, or on a Tuesday when the youth are there, or whatever. Or visit the home of a stereotypical TBM. Or a virulent anti-Mormon. Or any situation where the beliefs of the CoJCoLdS would be important. >Can Mormons write about Mormons as well as Jews can write about Jews? I suppose that depends on the Mormon and the Jew. And the opinion of the reader. If you are asking whether "the critics" will praise a Mormon who writes about Mormons as highly as they do a Jew who writes about Jews, the answer is that anyone who writes to please the critics is doomed anyway. Write what you want to read. If you want to read it, _someone_ else out there probably will, too. Eventually. ;-) (The Robert A. Heinlein take on getting published.) -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 04 May 2001 12:10:59 -0500 At 11:16 PM 5/3/01 -0400, you wrote: > I wonder if we couldn't develop a typology of reactions which people >exhibit regarding the church: > 1. those who buy into the myth, and then hermetically seal > themselves off >from anything that would disturb this myth. These would be like hot house >plants. They live, but their fruit is tasteless and bland. They remain >very dependent upon the hothouse. They never get beyond believing in Santa >Claus, so to speak. > 2. those who initially accept the myth, but then discover the > bones, and >decide they've been had, and turn away. > 3. those who are exposed to the bones right away, and are not > interested >in going any further. > 4. those for whom the myth has appeal, but who are skeptical > enough to >know that the myth can not possibly be the whole story. However they are >intrigued enough to root around among the bones and discover the precious >stones. These are the ones who become rock solid, who are not disappointed >or shaken by "discoveries," and who can grow to maturity and produce highly >flavorful fruit. Unfortunately, this group may not always be appreciated >because they remain sober when others are exibiting exubrance, tend to be >independent minded, and are inclined to wander uncomfortably far afield >from the hot house. > I believe Christ gave us a parable that roughly parallels these >categories--tho admittedly not with quite the same spin. > > >Merlyn Clarke And a lot of #2s then want us to alter our teachings to follow #3 so we won't deceive any more innocents into joining the Church and wasting their time, money, etc. -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Writing about Mormon Character Date: 04 May 2001 13:08:07 -0600 On Thu, 03 May 2001 15:09:26 -0700, LauraMaery (Gold) Post wrote: >You have a character who for some reason needs to pass by a temple. Or = even >enter one. Let's say it's a central plot point. You handle this plot = point by: > >1. Carefully explaining what a temple is, and what it means to the >character's faith. > >2. Assuming your reader knows what a temple is, and how it functions, = and >simply proceeding as though it's familiar. > >3. Setting your story in history. Nineteenth-century Mormons are more >interesting, or easier to write about, than are contemporary Mormons. > >4. Rewriting the whole story so that your character is, say, Jewish. Or >Muslim. Or an Alien. Or an elf. > >5. Targeting your story at an LDS audience. > >I'm supposing most LDS writers still pick method four...and that that >explains why so many LDS writers do S.F....Of the five choices, it's >actually easier (I'll be charitable: "more satisfying") to write about >Mormons disguised as aliens than it is to create contemporary fictional >Mormon characters and sell the story to a mainstream audience. > >Can Mormons write about Mormons as well as Jews can write about Jews? 6. Treat the temple scene as any other that needs to be described only so far as it touches the lives of your characters. If the doctrine involved= in temple building and worship are necessary to your plot then you go into = it, if they aren't then you stick with the physical descriptions needed to convey the information people need. This is by far the hardest option, but also the most satisfying to your readers. LDS members will know more about the temple, but everyone will know enough to appreciate the role the temple plays in your story. This = is the kind of thing that Chaim Potok does that is so hard to replicate. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Favorite Moments in LDS Lit. Date: 04 May 2001 12:23:31 -0700 (PDT) My all-time favorite would have to be the closing prayer in "Benediction" by Neal Chandler. A close second would be practically any scene from Josh Brady's "Great Gardens." ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 04 May 2001 13:27:58 -0600 On Thu, 03 May 2001 13:29:41 -0600, Thom Duncan wrote: > >I contend that, if we are ever able in our works of literature, to hope >to touch someone's heart so that they might consider coming back into >the fold, we must be able to look upon inactivity or apostasy as one >might look upon a person who chooses to join another political party, or >goes to a different college than we did, or who is left-handed. As long >as we attach a stigma to the "other," it will show up in our writing, >despite our best efforts to hide it behind tolerance. There is and >always will be the "other" but they are neither better or worse than we >are. =20 But the gospel isn't just a political party or different college. = Politics and college don't affect our eternal progress. They aren't necessary for salvation. People outside the church *are* forever other. People = outside the church don't accept truths that we hold absolute. Being a Democrat = or attending Harvard isn't going to keep you from the Celestial Kingdom. = Being excommunicated or leaving the church will. That said, I think I understand what you mean. I think the real problem = is when people take this "otherness" and use it to establish a personal hierarchy. We are *specifically* warned in the scriptures and by our prophets against the pride of calling ourselves better than others just because we belong to the one true church on the face of the Earth. = Somebody who has left the church has some things that are definitely wrong with = them. And because we know this, we are duty-bound to help them as much as we = can (please note that I believe that sometimes the best help we can offer is = to leave people (or their beliefs) alone). The trouble comes when in our attempts to help, we fail to treat the individual as a child of God who deserves our love regardless of their stance for or against the church. = If we fail to recognize the worth of others and/or put ourselves above them *just* because we are members of the church, then we sin and will be held accountable for that sin. In fact, using your position in the church to = say that you are better than someone else is specifically identified as a way= to lose the blessings of your position in the church (D&C something or other about amen to your priesthood if you oppress--I'm extending the = "priesthood" to mean position in the church, but I think that extension holds up). >> That said, since we are all human and we all fail, there is = *something* >> wrong with all of us. The trick is to keep in mind that we are all = children >> of God and we can all benefit by drawing closer to Him. > >But with a belief that, somehow, because I am active, I am "closer" to >God than a less active may be, is to re-argue the same question the >Apostles had when they asked Jesus, "Which of us will be on your right >hand." His answer to them is the same to us. Yes, we are definitely warned against exactly that position. We are = never justified in calling ourselves better than others. But I think that you = can safely say that someone who is outside the church will benefit and be = better than they are now if they will let go of whatever is keeping them out of = the church and approach God in faith and humility. We don't get to say that = we are better than them and that they can improve by becoming more like us. But we *do* get to say that they are flawed human beings and that they = will be better than they are now if they will become more like God--something that they can only do if they join the church, receive the Gift of the = Holy Ghost and endure to the end. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Helena Chester Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 05 May 2001 05:30:01 +1000 If you just don't believe anymore, it seems to me > > that you'd walk forward without having to wrestle, fight, find fault and > > fuss over the doctrines and practices. It's not that easy, and there are often more ties to the church than just the theological ones. If the connection was merely on the basis of believing a certain set of articles of faith, it would be easier to just walk away and conversely, if your connection was due to affection for a particular person in the church (which also happens), if that relationship breaks down, the church is no longer an issue. But for most people, there are lots of other ties (family, culture, comfort of knowing the system, language, customs etc). People in these situations, even if "fighting" are often subconsciously and consciously hoping somehow to make sense of their experiences and maybe find a better compromise than leaving. And it is often not even their choice to leave the PEOPLE. It happens by default at times. > > This is a phase in a person's disaffection. It's similar to what some > people experience when they first join the Church (my wife and I among > them): Everyone they meet is a potential convert, and it takes a while > to come to an understanding that not everyone will believe just because > YOU do. Been there, done that! (Probably still doing it. I love the LDS church!!!!) Those who become disaffected often feel betrayed, much like a > spurned lover. Their emotions are keen. They suffer from separation > anxiety. They are using you to get the Church out of their system. I > know you've been divorced but I don't know if you went through what some > divorced people have: And in every situation, we need people to tell us how they felt or how they perceive our situation. It helps us refine our own thoughts and feelings, even if it does take a lot of patience for the one who has to listen. But hopefully, in the end, those greiving can then help someone else to come to terms with their experiences in a positive way. Helena - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 04 May 2001 14:06:27 -0600 At 06:29 PM 5/3/01 -0300, you wrote: > > For criticizing a book we use our reason, to understand >the social environment, the historical context, the way >of creating caracters and other details of literature >creation... >For Doctrine we have to use our heart and our spirit...by >the fruit of the doctrine we are going to know if it=B4s >good or not...true or false... Thank you for reminding us of that. It's the point that's been missing=20 throughout the discussion. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Hansen Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 04 May 2001 14:23:41 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > How does a church > which claims to represent the God of Truth and fight against the Father > of Lies have so many people in it who think depicting truth in art is an > evil thing? When did "truthful," "accurate," or "factual" stop being > sufficient justifications in and of themselves? I've talked long and hard with friends who felt very uncomfortable with God's Army because of the healing and baptism scenes. I used to feel as strongly as D. Michael on this issue, but lately I've mellowed towards these friends because I realized that they are not afraid of the movie depictions as "truthful" or "accurate," but are instead afraid of "casting their pearls before swine." The best example I can think of is if you went to a movie theater and watched a "truthful" or "accurate" depiction of the endowment. I doubt many members of the church would feel comfortable in that situation. My friends equate the ordinances and power of the priesthood with sacredness, and by depicting the ordinances, even accurately, you cheapen them. To me it's a matter of line drawing. I didn't have any problem with God's Army (or the Brigham sacrament scene for that matter) and believe that Dutcher was just fine in his use of ordinances and blessings, but that's not to say that there isn't a line which can't be crossed in this regard. To me, showing baptisms and healings are far different than depicting the temple ceremony. But the fact that other people draw the line different than I do, does not make me feel like they don't want to be seen, don't want to be "truthful", or that they are "hiding their light under a bushel" so to speak. Dave Hansen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Diary of Anne Frank (Review) Date: 04 May 2001 16:12:33 -0700 [MOD: Apologies that because of the List's technical problems--i.e.,=20 moderator goofed--this isn't going out until after the final performance.] Well, for some reason, The PG Review has had this review for 3 editions and not run it. I wanted to give them a chance before I posted it. Oh, well, maybe next time. This could easily have been twice as long--lots of good to say about the show. It's playing tonight, tomorrow, and Monday. When I sent this out the return mail brought a note from my city editor with the following comment, "I tried to get him (the editor) to run the Anne Frank review, which we both agreed was really well written, but he just didn't have room." I was thinking that might be the reason, that or the penultimate paragraph, which is a bit weak, but I'll probably bring that up in a separate post. We had a murder in PG last week, Mina Pajela (Fillipino, I believe, despite the Finnish name), that's taken a little space. I mention her name because, as one caller pointed out on NPR's Wednesday broadcast, "The Execution Tapes," the victim's name often gets lost or forgotten. I also wrote 2 profiles of JessErica (they made a comment about the shared final syllables) which I'll post next week. My PG editor said she wants to run it next week, so I'll probably post it Wednesday. The Herald profile might come out that day, too. As a sidelight, it's worth noting that the big Mormon news this week is that the Church agreed to take Anne Frank's family and other famous Jews out of the database of posthumous baptisms. As Howard Berkes explained, to non-Mormons it can feel like we're saying, "Your religion, the religion you lived and died with, wasn't good enough. We're going to give you another one."=20 Berkes is a scrapper. At the news conference for the Freedman Bank records project he raised that question: Are we going to extract names from the records to baptize former slaves and their ancestors, and given the Church's history with race, would that be an ethical thing to do? Tough questions, but someone's gott to ask them. Review of The Diary of Anne Frank=20 Little Brown Theatre, Springville UT.=20 Harlow Clark Jessica Woahn and Erica Glenn, the Pleasant Grove teenagers who delighted audiences in last year=92s productions of Erica Glenn=92s Dancing Shoes are now alternating as Anne Frank in The Diary of Anne Frank, Fridays, Saturdays and Mondays until May 7 at the Little Brown Theatre, 289 S. Main in Springville. "After a great pain a formal feeling comes / The nerves stand ceremonious," wrote Emily Dickinson. That captures the mood and much of this play=92s action, as tender, funny, or joyous moments are marred by the tension of living in fear and hiding. At the end of the play Otto Frank says, "It seems strange that someone could be happy in a concentration camp--but Anne was away from these rooms and in the sunshine she loved so much." Woahn shows that loss of sunshine. Her Anne is a girl determined to be normal, but not quite sure how in her highly stylized, formal surroundings--thirteen and mischievous, full of energy that can=92t be expressed in silence and cramped quarters, but must be.=20 Glenn plays Anne more as someone able to bring her sunshine into the cramped rooms, which makes her cast a little less somber, the nerves a little less ceremonious. Both show how remarkable Anne Frank was, how ironic it is that someone who had so much life, and recorded it in wonderful detail, may be known to us only because she died. Commendations to Bill Brown for casting young performers in such a challenging role. The other performances are also strong. Mel Taylor, as Otto Frank, begins and ends the play with powerful, somber images as he comes back to the annex in 1945, the only survivor, to say goodbye to Amsterdam. He walks slowly around the room, lightly touching, stroking, the cupboard where the families kept their food, remembering, mourning. Tisha Thornhill as Miep Gies, who brought food and supplies, provides a break from the tension, the monotony of days spent in silence because the workers below could hear any noise, especially the flush of a toilet. She wants to bring good news, but one day she brings another resident, a dentist her fianc=E9 needs to hide. Mr. Dussell knows the bad news Miep has not been telling her friends, that the deportations have begun. James Gritton plays Dussell as a nervous man who feels doomed, uncomfortable in hiding, and uncomfortable being with other people. Scott Tarbet as Mr Van Daan gives a complex portrait of a man struggling to maintain civilization, to keep some pleasure--tobacco--in his life, and get enough to eat. Wendy Asay, as Edith Frank mirrors Van Daan=92s struggle to stay civilized. "They are our guests," she tells Anne, who has been arguing with Mr. Van Daan as if he were family, yet she has very harsh words when he is caught stealing food. Marie Knowlton as Mrs. Van Daan fights with her husband, flirts with Otto Frank, and carries great loss. She strokes a fur coat her father gave her in delicious, fragile memory. "Remember, Mr. So and So, I=92m a lady," her father told her to say, and she lets Anne wear it. Anne teases Mr. Van Daan by hiding his pipe and as he shouts for it she says, "Remember, Mr. So and So, I=92m a lady," and sticks it in his mouth. A nice comic moment, but then Anne spills some water on the coat, enraging Mrs. Van Daan. Margret Milius plays Anne=92s older sister, Margot with good humor and calm, despite having to be Anne=92s example. Genna Gardner also plays Margot, and has some nice business as she pleads silently with Anne to give Van Daan=92s pipe back. This is a rich, detailed production. I missed that business Monday night, but Saturday, from a different seat I saw it, and there=92s a lot of unemphasized business to see. When Anne gives Hannukah presents the focus is on her and the adults, but Peter Van Daan and Margot are sitting on a bench looking at the crossword book Anne gave Margot. Later, when Anne is getting ready to call on Peter, the spotlight is again on her, but Peter is quietly shaving with the razor Anne gave him. Jeff Carter plays Peter as a shy boy who opens up to Anne, first as a friend then almost as a boyfriend--if there were time for Peter and Anne to grow up. Michael Crockett also plays Peter, but not the nights I saw.=20 James Glenn, as Mr. Kraler, the gentle man who suffers from ulcers hiding eight people above his business, radiates such peace and calm that his presence onstage is a relief after intense scenes. And there is Peter=92s cat, Mushi. Towards the end of Act I Mr. Van Daan threatens to throw Mushi out, and in Act II, a year later, Mushi is gone, a fine symbol of loss. After the show, watching Mel Taylor carry Mushi out to his car I thought, =91of course the cat=92s still in the theatre,= just not onstage.=92=20 This is an enjoyable and sobering evening. Tickets are $8 for adults, $7 for students with ID, and $6 for children, or $35 for a family. Show starts at 7:30. For more information call 489-3088. Harlow Clark http://harlowclark0.tripod.com/index.html=20 Renounce war and proclaim peace. --Joseph Smith, August 6 I have committed sundry mouldy solecisms; yet I was not born to desecrate literature. --Edward Dahlberg - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 04 May 2001 21:19:59 -0600 D. Michael Martindale wrote: >I have comments, but I can't say them, because Jonathan would bounce >them back to me faster than bat sonar bounces off a moth. How can I >express myself tactfully, when I'm becoming so exasperated at this >attitude that I'm ready to start slapping sense into people? If the >energy used in this church to judge our fellow Saints could be >harnessed, California would have no energy shortage. How does a church >which claims to represent the God of Truth and fight against the Father >of Lies have so many people in it who think depicting truth in art is an >evil thing? When did "truthful," "accurate," or "factual" stop being >sufficient justifications in and of themselves? This is one of those debates that will likely never resolve, but I happen to come down directly behind Michael on this one. Part of what makes ethnic literature work (one of the *many* things) is that previously hidden societies are exposed in a way that shows those society's value to the main characters. This makes those cultures less alien, and thus more easily embraced. They become more "us" and less "them" because we see the ordinary humanity of people among the odd cultural practices. Mormons seem desperately afraid to do this. When Dutcher shows a baptism onscreen, some feel that he has trotted out an intimate and holy thing and subjected it to scrutiny by those who have no context to appreciate it. While this may be true, it ignores the fact that anyone can attend a baptism so long as they hear about it. Baptisms (and sacrament meetings) aren't hidden ordinances, they're public ones. They may be intimate and holy for some, but they are also intended for all who care to see them. For me, displaying such ordinances to public view creates Mormons as people who can be understood--therefore, as people who need not be feared. That seems to be the underlying comment of most literature that's critical of our culture; Mormons do strange things in secret places. I applaud Dutcher for being willing to share part of what it is to be Mormon to a general audience, and to do so in a way that makes those special moments seem completely ordinary in context. He helps to show that Mormon religious life is not really any stranger than Catholic or Jewish or Unitarian religious life. In other words, while the details may be different the general framework religious framework is familiar. To me the import of a baptism has always been internal, and showing the external ordinance is one of many great ways to show the world that while we are unique, we are also comprehensible, and our religious celebrations need not be feared. I would like to see more of that--the public depiction of Mormon religious life as simply a fact of the characters, not as a character itself. This is not a new rant for me; the AML-List archives are full of me calling for inclusion of Mormon technical details in stories. If a character has a religion, why can't it be Mormon? If a character has a moral/social struggle, why can't we use some of our own concepts and themes in depicting it? And every appearance of an identifiably Mormon thing doesn't have to take center stage--those can be simple background details in the lives of richly drawn characters. The Church ends up overpowering far too many stories because Mormon writers seem to believe that if anything Mormon is depicted, it has to take center stage. I disagree. By depicting the ordinary rituals of Mormon life as exactly that--ordinary--we create more opportunities for people outside our community to know and understand us at a deeper level than they have before. I prefer to think of such depictions not as pearls before swine, but as a candle set on a hilltop for all to see. And...perhaps...wonder more about. If such depictions offend some among us, I ask forgiveness, and suggest that for others of us, those images are one way of sharing our own testimonies with the world. Which I think is a good thing. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Genealogy in Literature Date: 05 May 2001 01:26:29 -0600 Andrew Hall wrote: > "Genealogical thrillers" That sounds to me like as big an oxymoron as "military intelligence." -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Book of Mormon Epic to Be Produced for Giant (IMAX) Date: 05 May 2001 01:50:31 -0600 "InteliQuest Media Corporation (by way of Ronn Blankenship )" wrote: > Also in development from the producers are other LDS-themed epic > films for the large screen including the story of the restoration and > the epic pioneer journey. Must be why Richard Dutcher felt such a pressing need to make his next film about Joseph Smith, to beat these guys to the punch. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 05 May 2001 11:39:43 -0600 I watched Oprah when Betty Eadie was on there, and Oprah talked freely about Betty's being a Mormon. I think all of us should write one hot shot paragraph to Harpo. Anybody want to try? William, please give us an example of what you might write. Educate us how to ask. I think it might work! Marilyn - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] You Must See J. Golden... Date: 05 May 2001 12:26:01 -0500 At 10:17 AM 5/4/01 -0600, Thom Duncan wrote: >... opening tonight at the UVSC Black Box theatre. > Rated "R" for strong language. ;-) -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Writing about Mormon Characters Date: 04 May 2001 22:04:18 -0600 LauraMaery (Gold) Post wrote: >The question (and yes, I know it's only theoretical to many of us): When >you write to "the world," do you still feel compelled to disguise your >characters' Mormon faith? I rant a little about this in another post, but let me comment again here... It depends on what kind of story I'm telling. I've populated my short fiction with Mormon concepts for years, but have only written a few with overtly Mormon details. In my mind, though, many of my characters have been Mormon even when I have made no effort to expose that fact to readers. Using religion in fiction is always hard. Our inclination is to make religion a/the central theme around which the story revolves. I'm not sure this need be true. I think you can write stories where rich characters have motivations, and one of the several motivations that work on characters is their religion. Unfortunately, readers have been taught to see that expression of religion as a signpost that the story's resolution will somehow hinge on that religious perspective. If it doesn't, I think many readers end up feeling that you've given them a red herring, and that you've somehow misled them. Which is odd to me. We include other attributes about characters all the time that have no direct bearing on resolving a story's primary conflict. We give them hair and eye color, height, gender, national origin, and more, without expecting all of those details to bear on the resolution. So... I would love to see (though I have never done it myself) more stories where small, meaningless details are clearly shown as having origins in Mormon culture and/or mindset. Not stories about The Church, but stories containing members of a church. As for the rest, I'm not sure. I've tended to try to write stories that appeal to a broad audience and have written little or nothing intended for a Mormon audience only (with the exception of pretty much everything I say on this list). >You have a character who for some reason needs to pass by a temple. Or even >enter one. Let's say it's a central plot point. You handle this plot point by: > >1. Carefully explaining what a temple is, and what it means to the >character's faith. > >2. Assuming your reader knows what a temple is, and how it functions, and >simply proceeding as though it's familiar. > >3. Setting your story in history. Nineteenth-century Mormons are more >interesting, or easier to write about, than are contemporary Mormons. > >4. Rewriting the whole story so that your character is, say, Jewish. Or >Muslim. Or an Alien. Or an elf. > >5. Targeting your story at an LDS audience. Split the difference between 1 and 2. If POV is Mormon, there should have been many opportunities earlier in the story to set up the meaning of a temple to him so by the time you actually show it, the reader understands what a temple is for and how POV feels about it. I think we tend to wait until the last instant, then pile it on, and I think that ends up feeling wrong to most readers. If POV is not Mormon, then you have a perfect opportunity to do some work in inner monologue where POV talks about what he thinks of Mormons. Make it short, and let him ask himself exactly the questions that most non-Mormons would ask about temples. If this really is a key point, you have time to deepen the thought later in the story; do just enough now to set up the questions and promise that answers (of some sort) will come later. >I'm supposing most LDS writers still pick method four...and that that >explains why so many LDS writers do S.F....Of the five choices, it's >actually easier (I'll be charitable: "more satisfying") to write about >Mormons disguised as aliens than it is to create contemporary fictional >Mormon characters and sell the story to a mainstream audience. I'm not sure this is true, then again there are an awful lot of writers who have chosen speculative fiction as an outlet for their very Mormon thoughts (see my editorial in the current issue of Irreantum for more of my thoughts on this). While I hope that parenthetical wasn't intended as condescension, I think you make a good point. I think it is *is* easier to write about many Mormon things when you go with a completely irrelevant setting. I think it *is* easier for Mormon authors to explore the concepts of Mormon thought because genre readers expect there to be a certain amount of alien world-building, which includes exploring alien philosophies. In sf, philosophical lumps are not only okay, they're actually anticipated by many readers. And yes, I think that makes telling some stories more satisfying. When you can address questions and ideas about your own culture directly, it often is more satisfying to the author. They're freed of some heavy constraints. Easier? Absolutely! (Though I'm not sure it's fair to criticize the genre simply because it makes talking about some things easier. Every choice an author makes, from genre to setting to the characters' race enable both easier and harder choices; it's not the difficulty of the choice that I find interesting so much as how effectively that choice is used in the remainder of the story. But that's a completely different discussion.) More satisfying? For many, yes. It's nice to tell your own stories with less obfuscation. Sometimes. And there's that whole salability thing. Many on this list have bemoaned the closed doors in New York for overtly Mormon stories--or at least overt stories where The Church isn't the bad guy. Certainly the genre has allowed a great deal more freedom to address such issues without impacting overall salability. Personally, I think the answer lies in quietly educating more readers to what it means to be Mormon. Make more characters passively Mormon, and include more details about our culture, so that over the years readers become more familiar with us and our practices. That takes the mystery out, and makes us less alien and thus less fearsome. Over time, this will facilitate more stories containing more overt Mormonisms without requiring an either/or judgement about the truth of the institution. It could take twenty years. But I think it's quite possible, and quite desirable. >Can Mormons write about Mormons as well as Jews can write about Jews? Maybe. We haven't yet. But remember, it took many Jews writing many stories containing overt elements of Judaism for many years to become mainstream. I think we need to give ourselves some more time to penetrate the national consciousness as normal humans before the overt (non-negative) Mormon story will have a chance at massive national success. But the signs are already out there. The Time (or was it Newsweek?) pseudo-expose about that corporation of the church and its economic power. The general success of President Hinckley's book. The marvellous work being done by Margaret Young and Darius Gray. The fact that Richard Dutcher was able to make a second movie with a much better distribution says something about Hollywood's willingness to accept a Mormon artist. The signs are there that we may be gaining mainstream acceptance. Now the question is what are we gonna do about it. Don't be afraid to tell our own stories our own ways. Trying to hard to satisfy other people may be a big part of the reason that most Mormon stories are viewed as being either too angry or too fluffy for the national market. The doors are opening, though slowly. One way to open them further is to tell the wide variety of Mormon stories there are to tell, and not to be afraid to use the fact that we're seen by many as somewhat exotic (strange, but true!) as a point of leverage for both story and sale. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Genealogy in Literature Date: 05 May 2001 12:31:56 -0700 On Thursday 3 May 2001 Renato Rigo writes (love that alliteration): > >Do you have literature books where genealogy is the > >central theme? On Fri, 04 May 2001 Andrew Hall replied: > As far as fiction is concerned, G. G. Vandegraff wrote two novels for > Deseret Book which were advertised as "Genealogical thrillers". > Cankered Roots (1994), and Of Deadly Descent (1996). I immediately thought of Brigham's Bees by Robert Kirby. Interesting that Andrew and I both thought of thrillers. It also occurred to me that family history is very much a theme in Levi Peterson's _The Backslider_, not so much writing records as how the family narrative, particularly the narrative of madness, gets passed down in Frank's family. Just finished Louis Owens' _Bone Game_, about many forms of genealogy, intellectual as well as familial. It's very much about turning hearts of old and young towards each other, and very much about the earth being smitten with a curse. It raises an interesting question--given the cultural taboos the book describes about saying the names of the dead, how would Native Americans do temple work? BTW, if April showers bring may flowers what do may flowers bring? Allergies. Hence the song, "General allergies, I'm a-chooing them, my general allergies, and the reasons why I'm a-chooing them are very plain to see, Ragweed's in the air, pollen's everywhere, my general allergies." Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 05 May 2001 17:50:35 -0500 This weekend, I took five of my sons to our stake father and son campout. During the hour-long drive to camp, we passed by two freight trains. As we went by each train, three of my younger sons began to count the number of cars on the track. After counting, they each declared how may cars were in the train. On both occasions I remarked to everyone's amusement, "Once again, three eye witnesses to the same event have returned with different versions of the details." Though their totals were close in number, the difference in their counting could not be resolved by simple things, such as whether or not they included the engines. Each was certain he had counted correctly. This led to a wonderful discussion about reporting events, both historical and current, and how we each see things differently. We discussed how, in some matters, it is important to return and check the facts. We talked about how, in most cases, we only get one chance to gather information and cannot go back for what we miss. We talked about how the counting of the train cars was really no big deal for those of us going camping, but that it might have been a significant problem for someone more interested in the actual count, such as the shipper, the switchyard, the engineer in the locomotive, or the railroad billing department. Even small differences in their numbers, for example, might have resulted in recounts, verifications, heated discussions, and all of the other things associated with defending what we believe is right when it is important to us. Except for the torrential rain, lightning, thunder, and ensuing dampness (we would have been drier at the bottom of a swimming pool), it was a great weekend. Of course, I wouldn't suppose any recent posts on this list had anything to do with it, did they? (Thanks.) Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN New Products: The Kindness Handbook, Evolution and Mormonism: Kent Larsen Date: 05 May 2001 18:00:57 -0500 Kent Larsen 4May01 A4 [From Mormon-News] New Products: The Kindness Handbook, Evolution and Mormonism NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- A group of Mormon scholars took on the sometimes controversial subject of Evolution in a recent book from Signature Books, while a new Deseret Book title gives practical advice on helping others through adversity. The scholars who wrote "Evolution and Mormonism" include BYU professor Duane Jeffrey, and they approach evolution from a belief in the gospel, managing to reconcile the findings of science with that belief. Also new is "The Kindness Handbook," a guide for how to help those in need, or not help as the situation may require. The book covers a multitude of situations, including major surgery, death, divorce, and unemployment. Meanwhile, the University of Illinois Press is releasing "Mormon History," a scholarly look at how Mormons have told their history since the founding of the Church. New and recent products: Listen to Your Mother by Maureen Crimin Einfeldt Evans Books Book; LDS Publisher; Non-Fiction; Mormon Subject $6.95 A poetic collection of a few of the loving lines that mothers pass to their children, whether they want to or not. The Kindness Handbook: When You Want to Help but Don't Know What to Do by Jeri-Lynn Johnson Deseret Book Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $7.95 A practical guide for those of us who simply don't know how to help or show concern for others that are suffering. Includes guidance on what to do and what not to do in every situation, including major surgery, unemployment, homelessness, disability, death of a spouse, death of a child, divorce, etc. The Book of Mormon and the Message of the Four Gospels Edited by Ray L. Huntington and Terry B. Ball Deseret Book Book; LDS Publisher; Nonfiction; Mormon Subject and Author $22.95 A collection of essays by 14 Latter-day Saint scholars on the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. The essays talk about questions like, Is the New Testament doctrinally complete? Does God condone anger as the book of Matthew seems to suggest? What is the meaning of the word gospel? Mormon History by Ronald W. Walker, David J. Whittaker and James B. Allen University of Illinois Press Book; University Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Authors $32.50 A companion volume to their massive bibliography "Studies in Mormon History, 1830-1997," this descriptive history by a team of top Mormon scholars provides a comprehensive view of how the writing of Mormon history has evolved since the establishment of the church. Evolution and Mormonism: A Quest for Understanding by Trent D. Stephens, D. Jeffrey Meldrum, Forrest B. Peterson, Duane E. Jeffery Signature Book Book; Utah Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Authors $19.95 Latter-day Saint scientists, aided by a non-scientist, look at the discoveries of science about evolution, approaching the subject from a position of faith. Using information from the scriptures, they try to show how scripture is consistent with modern science. Where Can I Turn for Peace Covenant Communications CD; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $11.95 Recording of Gubler's talk about how if we turn to the Savior we can find peace and happiness. A World Away by Anna Jones Covenant Communications Book; LDS Publisher; Fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $14.95 Romance about a woman's bed and breakfast in Wales and the people who visit there. A novel about a place where dreams are renewed, peace is found, and lives are changed. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Writing about Mormon Character Date: 05 May 2001 21:10:09 -0700 (PDT) --- "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" wrote: > 4. Rewriting the whole story so that your character > is, say, Jewish. Or > Muslim. Or an Alien. Or an elf. [And she wrote]: > I'm supposing most LDS writers still pick method > four...and that that > explains why so many LDS writers do S.F....Of the > five choices, it's > actually easier (I'll be charitable: "more > satisfying") to write about > Mormons disguised as aliens than it is to create > contemporary fictional > Mormon characters and sell the story to a mainstream > audience. > > Can Mormons write about Mormons as well as Jews can > write about Jews? I will admit to having this same prejudice--viewing sci-fi as a bit of a cop out because it covers the 'cultural' or 'theological' signs of Mormonism with a sci-fi wrap. However, after reading Orson Scott Card's and Dave Wolverton's similar thoughts on the subject, along with Scott Parkin's excellent introduction to the latest issue of _Irreantum_, I've changed my mind. The move by Mormon writers into speculative fiction was one of the great cultural achievements of Mormon history. It (as Scott explains so well) gave Card and others access to a national audience, allowed them to explore Mormon-inspired themes, provided some of them enough capital so they had time to write, and provided, to a certain extent, the proof that Mormon authors can find an audience beyond the Mormon one. However, I also realize that the choice to write speculative fiction creates its own set of constraints, and I admit to a strong desire to see Mormon 'literary fiction' that is of a high quality---I guess unlike Card and Wolverton, I haven't given up on it yet. I don't exactly mean 'literary realism' because some of my favorite writing has a speculative quality to it (latest example: Bulgakov's _The Master and Margarita_). What I mean is literary fiction that explicitly uses the symbols, history, vernacular, mores, themes and character 'types' of Mormonism. Can Mormons write about Mormons as well as Jews write about Jews? I think they already are, especially in the various genre fictions. In fact, I don't think that the barrier to great Mormon literary fiction is a lack of talent (maybe of genius, but not much literary fiction is truly genius), I suspect that the talent is out there. No, the barrier is one of time and opportunity (not really my idea---it's something that's been complained about and discussed for the past four decades or more---for Mormon authors the question to write brings with it some of the same anxieties that the question to write brought to women authors of the last century). The market for literary fiction is already incredibly small, yet it is also cluttered (because of all the creative writing programs, which in turn sprang up to support the literary authors because they couldn't live off their writing alone), and it is, for the most part, not interested in Mormon writing, let alone Mormon writing from a 'faithful' perspective (the perspective I'm most interested in). So what I'm hoping to see (and maybe help with) is growth in the market for Mormon literary fiction (and quality genre fiction) so that when the next Wolverton comes along, instead of turning to sci-fi, he or she views literary fiction as a viable path. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Wright (by way of Ronn Blankenship ) Subject: [AML] MN At BYU-Hawaii, Card Tells Students How to Write: BYU Hawaii Date: 07 May 2001 23:39:41 -0500 From Mormon-News: See footer for instructions on joining and leaving this list. Do you have an opinion on this news item? Send your comment to letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com At BYU-Hawaii, Card Tells Students How to Write LAIE, HAWAII -- Orson Scott Card, well known-novelist and member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has found his own way to meld his religious beliefs and his creative writing. Earlier in his career, he briefly attempted to separate his personal moral compass from his writings. He was, by his own admission, mostly unsuccessful in the attempt. Now, realizing that his religious perspective is part of "who he is," Card is comfortable with the results that come from his harmonization of the sacred and the secular. "What I do as a Mormon writer is no different than what you do as a Mormon insurance salesman, a Mormon student, a Mormon clerk at the grocery store, a Mormon doctor, that is, I try to make everything I do a part of life as a Latter-day Saint," he said. Card was speaking to a small audience about the concerns, problems and benefits of being a successful Latter Day Saint writer while visiting the Aloha Center on the campus of BYU-Hawaii. While answering questions, Card provided his insights about what it takes to be a successful writer. "Write your brains out," he said. "If you're writing, you're a writer. If you're not writing, you're not a writer...If you're serious about writing, just do it." He also offered advice about the "right" way to write, saying, "Pay no attention to what you have been told what good writing is." Finally, Card noted that many writers have to spend time trying to unlearn incorrect writing principles that they were taught in school. Best known for his Hugo and Nebula award-winning stories, Card is pursuing the possibility of moving his work to the big screen. Current discussions with Nickelodeon Films may eventually bring Card's wildly popular sci-fi novel, Ender's Game, to a theater near you. Hopefully, Card will continue to find a way to mesh his imaginative writing with his core LDS beliefs and produce many more entertaining stories for all to enjoy. Source: Writing as a Mormon BYU Hawaii Ke Alaka'i 2May01 A2 http://www.byuh.edu/kealakai/current/pages/orson.html By Nate Sadowski: Staff writer Successful LDS writer Orson Scott Card >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: [AML] Martha Beck on Oprah Date: 08 May 2001 12:48:59 -0400 Anybody happen to catch Martha Beck on Oprah yesterday? (Monday, May 7) I didn't, but my wife told me she was featured in a pre-filmed segment, called something like "Remembering Your Spirituality." The irony of the title does not escape me. Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis Manning" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 08 May 2001 16:36:58 -0600 I went on a roadtrip with my wife last weekend and we discussed Richard Dutcher. I told my wife I thought Dutcher was courageous for producing screenplays by a Mormon about Mormons. My wife said she has trouble with that. We talked further. My wife said she has problems with movie makers producing films containing spiritual content like blessings and prayers. My comment was, "Well, why has the church televised an LDS sacrament meeting on t.v. here in recent years? Those things are sacred." I also said there is spiritual content in _Legacy_ and _Testament_, and these are church-sponsored productions. Her comment was she didn't particularly like church movies and productions, that they just weren't well produced. She hasn't been impressed by _Legacy_ or _Testaments_. I said that church artists weren't going to get better, that LDS filmmakers weren't going to get better unless there were more films to watch and critique, if there wasn't a more substantive discourse and dialogue on what makes films "good". Back to what Wayne Booth has said about critical communities, that unless we have a critical community, art, in whatever form, will not improve (this is a loose reiteration, but still on the point). My wife questioned Dutcher's financial motives: was he attempting to JUST make money off of movie producing? I didn't believe so. Besides, shouldn't we be anxiously engaged in good causes and do many good things of our own free will to bring to pass good things? My wife asked me why an LDS moviemaker would attempt to even make _Brigham City_, a *fictional* piece. Why fiction? My response: Christ used fiction. The Parables. Christ's Parables are stories carefully crafted to elicit valuable lessons to those who are paying careful attention to its content. Her response was, "Well, that's Christ. We shouldn't try to replicate what he does?" I asked if she was sure about that, and she realized where we were in our conversation. Christ, of course, commands us to be like Him, even as He is like the Father. We both agreed. Again, I said, I see Richard Dutcher as a courageous LDS filmmaker who is just developing his art and encouraging other LDS filmmakers to do the same. There are almost zero films by Mormons about Mormons, for a national audience. And as Margaret Young mentioned in her post a couple weeks ago about her and Darius' experience in an L.A. book convention, there are still many stereotypes about Mormons that are flat-out "back woods" and hokey. Is Dutcher proselytizing in his movies? We discussed the effectiveness of proselyting through this medium, and I believed, yes he is. But is Dutcher also creating quality art? (You can see why we spent two hours talking about this.) Yes, Dutcher is creating quality art. Can movies by Mormons about Mormons help break down anti-Mormon stereotypes? We felt yes, depending on how the movies were made. Not all movies were/are going to "reach" every member of an audience. Many films do not "reach" my wife, for instance. Movies touch some more than others, as in any art form, we decided. That's why LDS artists need to be producing more art, in all artistic mediums, because some art effects others in more significant and important ways, ways that help build faith for each of us who are on varying spiritual levels. To sum it up, I believe Richard Dutcher is well-intentioned, perhaps inspired (at minimum, inspired to want to create "quality" LDS art), contributing dialogue to our LDS critical, artistic community, and yes, I believe he is courageous for being anxiously engaged in a good cause. Travis K. Manning "Men and women die; philosophers falter in wisdom, and Christians in goodness: if any one you know has suffered and erred, let him look higher than his equals for strength to amend, and solace to heal." (Jane Eyre) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: [AML] Jeff Needle Date: 08 May 2001 17:13:20 -0600 Has anyone heard from Jeff. How is he doing? Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 08 May 2001 19:50:32 -0600 Margaret Young wrote: >Gee, Michael, I wanted to hear what you were really thinking. Another quick >observation: My mother reported to me that some of her Mission President type >friends really RESENT "God's Army." Why? Because (according to them--though >this seems a bit unlikely to me) missionaries are portrayed as not >being solidly grounded in their faith. I got a similar reaction to _Brigham City_ when I brought it up in the Stake public affairs council meeting last week. One woman was absolutely incensed that he had shown a sacrament meeting *complete with prayers* in a mere film. I reminded her that those prayers were a matter of public record, but she still felt that Dutcher had somehow violated our sacred things--and from the inside, no less. I'm pretty much of the opposite opinion. I want to see more of this sort of thing. But I've already said this, so I'll stop now. The complaint above does raise an interesting question, though. I haven't seen _God's Army_ yet, so I have to ask--were *any* of the missionaries portrayed as having an unshaken, fully developed faith? Or were they all in the process of becoming? I ask, because I think this happens a lot in our better wrought works. In an effort to show real people with real issues, Mormon artists often fail to show anyone with a solid faith, focusing instead on only those with problems or eccentricities, and that bothers some people as much as the overly saccharine versions do. It's not that the challenging depictions are inaccurate, as much as the exclusion of "faithful" depictions that bothers. >As the report goes, potential investigators feel that Dutcher has >shown them REAL missionaries, who have the same struggles with faith >common to us all, and so must not truly have anything of value to >offer. When my >students discussed "God's Army" last semester, one said that she >hated it because it was so "anti-Mormon." This is a pretty common attitude. The depiction of anything less than the purely positive is viewed by many as somehow negative. I hope we as a culture learn to be confident enough in our own faith that we're not afraid of depictions that dare to show opposites in action. I've never met a single person with a perfect faith--missionary or otherwise. It's not whether our faith is fully formed that matters to me, but rather that good people honestly seek the truth through effort and struggle and sometimes pain. All we can do is tell honest stories as often as possible, and be true to our own vision. And that we learn some sense of humor as cultural Mormons. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 09 May 2001 00:23:35 -0700 On Fri, 04 May 2001 13:27:58 Jacob Proffitt writes: > But the gospel isn't just a political party or different college. > Politics and college don't affect our eternal progress. I agree. Indeed, I think about this whenever I hear or read people using the words _Democrat_ or _liberal_ as synonyms for 666. (The same people who revised James 1:5 to read, "If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God, who giveth with compassionate conservatism and upbraideth a lot, for if He giveth a man a fish the man eatheth for a day, but if He teacheth a man to fish He addeth to the economy, taketh that cheater off the welfare rolls, and increaseth the size of the tax rebate to the wealthy.") Of course, our choice of politics, or college, can reflect our eternal values, and affect our eternal progress by giving us ideas to choose between, ideas that may harmonize with the gospel fully, partly or not at all. > People outside the church *are* forever other. People > outside the church don't accept truths that we hold absolute. That seems too sweeping. I think it was Marion G. Romney who said in a conference talk that we ought to be careful in saying that people outside of the Church or in other cultures don't share our values. What would it mean, he said, to live in a culture where murder was the norm, where rape and stealing and having no honor for your parents were the expected behavior? If you're really thinking about a culture based on radically different premises just imagine a culture where each of the 10 commandments is reversed. (Draka, I know--but a very mild version of Draka, from what Lee Allred says in his article, "Nietszche Was Right" and Other Pitfalls in Depicting Evil (Chickens) in Fiction, in the Winter 2000-2001 Cluckyantum. > Being a Democrat or attending Harvard isn't going to keep you > from the Celestial Kingdom. Thank you for saying this. Of course, it seems to be the opinion of a book we've discussed recently that attending Harvard may disconnect you from your spirituality. > Being excommunicated or leaving the church will. OK, story time. In 1986 I was working days at DI in Skedaddle and wandering the city at nights (not in white satin) cleaning buildings. There was a couple who brought their son to work with them. Like all DIs we got a lot more clothes than we could sell--once shipped a semi-load down to Portland. We would take the best, and throw the rest into a baler, and ship the bales to poor countries overseas or to Central and South America. We also had a contract with the Bow-Wing company to produce wipers, which we got from cutting apart cotton clothes, t-shirts mostly, with a mechanical skizzers. The person making the wipes would sit at the machine and feed clothes through the blade like feeding fabric through a sewing machine. When the blade got dull there was a foot pedal to push to sharpen it. So this couple had their teenage son with them at work one day and he was cutting up wipers and he'd press the foot pedal every so often because he liked the sound of the blade sharpening on the whetstone. "Allen, don't be greedy," his father said. So then he started chanting, "Greeeeeedy, Greeeeeedy." A few months later I visited the father in the county jail. (He was later moved to a prison on an island near Aromatown. (That was around the time Springsteen got sick in the Aroma Dome--maybe a few years before. I always found Everett's sawmills more objectionable that Tacoma's aroma, but there's no olfactory term that rhymes with Everett. Maybe in Snohomish.) Then out onto the Olympic Peninsula. We took the mother out there one time for a trailer visit. The father was having trouble with jaundice, and I was singing variations on the rodent song to myself , things like P-r-i-k-l-y G-r-o-u-s. When I got to S-i-c-k-l-y S-p-o-u-s, the wife murmurred from the back seat where she was half dozing, "No, well spouse." Anyway, the state had split up the family and Allen was only living with his mother because he was too difficult for anyone else to handle. (When the apartment next to ours came empty we moved them in there from a tenament just kitty-corner across the freeway from the King County Jail skyscraper. Being so close to downtown the tenament was gentrified a short time later.) While the father was having his problems with jaundice the mother was busy ignoring two little lumps under her armpit. Several months later, within about a month she turned orange and died. I don't know if her parental rights (except to Allen) had been terminated by then, but the state was working on it, and I've always felt that ignoring those lumps was her way out of a very very bad situation. A few months later we took Allen into our apartment. He was close to turning 18, and the group family he was staying with was moving to a smaller house (to get rid of him?) so we got a blessing from a member of the Steak Pres'y who had been in grad school when my brother was, as had the Bp and his wife, and others. (Dean Hughes once told me that the student ward at the UW in the early 70's was the most left-wing in the Church. "We used to sing 'Choose the Left.'" Which may explain why Gary London was such a terrific bishop. Because Capitol Hill is a place where people hide out from the Church the Skedaddle 5th ward, with about 800 people, was the largest in the Church. Gary took his responsibility as bishop of everyone within the ward boundaries very seriously, and because Capitol Hill is a center of gay life he had a liaison between the ward and the gay community (my home teaching companion, until we moved to Utah and Bill was called into the bishopric). And because there's a sizeable Afro-American population on Capitol Hill he formed a sister church relationship with the Bright and Morning Star Baptist Church, and invited their choir, the Total Experience Gospel Choir, to perform in our Stake Center when they were raising funds (I think) for an African tour. (He had first heard them perform at Bumbershoot, big festival at the Skedaddle Center, years before, and told his wife, Kaisa, that he wouldn't be satisfied until he heard them perform in our chapel. And when they sing you know the Spirit of God like a fire is burning.) So, Allen's older brother, the oldest child ,was out of foster care by then and living over in Issaquah (great name) with a room mate and he called me one day around the time his father was going to get out of prison wondering how he could get a restraining order. I told him it was difficult and talked to his aunt in Idaho. (No social services in her town for Allen--not retarded, despite the impression he gave. No social services there for brilliant, semi-autistic people. Better to stay in Seeeatle, Seeeattle, Seeeeeeatle.) She suggested just not giving the father his phone number or address. Within a few months, though, his need to have some relationship with his father led him to get in touch. So I drove over to Issaquah to talk with the brother. He was concerned about his youngest sister (father's namesake) being raised in a Catholic home as a Catholic. (The night before the mother's funeral there had been a family meeting in her apt, all the children and their foster parents, more or less. Anyway, her Catholic mother said, "Now you'll have your own Saint to pray to.") He felt that having left the Church his sister would go to Hell. ("I hope you like green horns and a tail." --Love that picture of Ryan Shupe and the Rubber Band wearing ear rings on the front of their album.) I don't know if I told him or not that JS once said his greatest accomplishment was abolishing Hell. It's hard to imagine a loving, forgiving God when your experience in life is mostly brutal. He had surrounded himself with LDS artifacts he could hold onto, gain strength from, like a Saturday's-Warrior-the-video poster. He would play hymn tapes over and over. He would sing with the intensity of someone trying to preserve, create, find meaning in a very difficult, sick world. We stood there and sang about 10 hymns in a row. I guess that was what he needed, or the only thing I could offer that he could accept. I don't think there would have been a way to tell him that sometimes peoples' experience with a church is so deeply tied to pain and degradation--because the people who degrade them pretend to be righteous, pretend to be good church memers--that they can't find a spiritual home within that church. But that doesn't mean they don't love the Spirit, or seek a home, or that they wouldn't recognize the mansion prepared for them if the right realtor in the right sorghum stenches showed it to them. OK, I'm nearing the end of the 3rd CD (Envoy's Stand Up and Julie DeAzevedo's Dive Deep and now Sue Krupa, The Glory of A New Day, is singing a lullaby/lament in Mary's voice), and it's time for bed (However, we haven't been talking until three, and I'm not going to sleep in the bath.). The mass is ended. Go in peace. Harlow Soderborg Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Marie Osmond Starts "Behind the Smile" Book Tour: Excite News (AP) Date: 08 May 2001 21:13:05 -0500 (AP) 6May01 A2 [From Mormon-News] Marie Osmond Starts "Behind the Smile" Book Tour SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- With the release of her new book, "Behind the Smile: My Journey Out of Postpartum Depression," Marie Osmond is starting a book tour to promote the book, which she says is meant to help those suffering from similar depression. Osmond's struggle occurred in the past year, during which she separated from her husband, then publicly declared that she suffered from postpartum depression. She has since reconciled with her husband. Osmond was in Salt Lake City signing copies of her book yesterday, and is signing in Provo, Utah today. She says things have improved substantially since her very public struggle, "We're doing awesome, Just totally awesome." The story seems to have hit a chord with women. Her physician, Dr. Judith Moore, a co-author in the book, was innundated with calls after the book was previewed in the May issue of God Housekeeping. Osmond got a huge response when she revealed the problem last year on Oprah, "When I did 'Oprah' I got thousands of e-mails from women thanking me for giving what is bothering them a name." She adds, "We've hit a chord with women. I felt like the message needed to get out." But the book may bring out some questions that Osmond hasn't answered, and apparently doesn't want to talk about. Several news stories have called attention to Osmond's revelation that she was abused as a child, included in the book because many women who suffer from postpartum depression were abused when very young. "Abuse of some sort seems to be a common link," explains Osmond. But she also says that including the abuse was important for her, "I couldn't be honest in my own story if I didn't reveal it. But that was a long time ago," she says. According to Osmond the abuse came from "people with very temporary access to my life, people I didn't know well." Following the tour, Osmond says she plans to spend the next year helping her eldest son, Stephen, prepare for an LDS mission. To do that, she wants to stay home more, and has turned down four Broadway shows and a "bunch of television projects." Sources: Marie Osmond Tours to Promote Book Excite News (AP) 6May01 A2 http://news.excite.com:80/news/ap/010506/15/ent-marie-osmond Associated Press Osmond Is Beating the Blues Salt Lake Tribune 5May01 A2 http://www.sltrib.com/05052001/utah/utah.htm By Hilary Groutage: Salt Lake Tribune Behind the smile of Marie Osmond Deseret News 2May01 A2 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,270016357,00.html By Dennis Lythgoe: Deseret News book editor >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 09 May 2001 01:18:04 -0600 David Hansen wrote: > I've talked long and hard with friends who felt very uncomfortable with God's > Army because of the healing and baptism scenes. I used to feel as strongly as D. > Michael on this issue, but lately I've mellowed towards these friends because I > realized that they are not afraid of the movie depictions as "truthful" or > "accurate," but are instead afraid of "casting their pearls before swine." Ah, one of those phrases that get overused above and beyond their original intent, like "The body is a temple," or "Avoid even the appearance of evil." I read a number of non-LDS reviews of "God's Army." Whatever their take was on the quality of the film, none of them acted "swinishly" toward the religious rites themselves. I've not noticed one piece of feedback from any source that mocked the religious elements of the film. Some have questioned whether they were used effectively by the filmmaker, but no one has treated them with anything but respect. If this is what your friends are truly concerned about, they are wasting good cognitive energy. So far no swine have trampled the pearls. (By the way, I wonder what non-members think of us continually calling them swine?) > The best example I can think of is if you went to a movie theater and watched a > "truthful" or "accurate" depiction of the endowment. This seems like the worst possible example to me. There is a quantum difference between the ordinances we perform within the temple and those without. The ordinances without are viewable by anyone at any time who merely chooses to be present. The ordinances within the temple are not even viewable by all members of the church--only those who maintain a certain standard of worthiness. A very big difference. > My friends equate the > ordinances and power of the priesthood with sacredness, and by depicting the > ordinances, even accurately, you cheapen them. Well, they're entitled to their opinion, but I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out where the notion came from that sacred always has to mean hush-hush or hide-hide. If they're so sacred that they shouldn't be cheapened by any form of depiction, why aren't all of them performed in the temple where no one but a select few can witness them? God doesn't seem concerned about nonmembers witnessing non-temple ordinances, as long as the environment is respectful; why should we be? I consider Dutcher's depictions to be respectful. > I didn't have any problem with God's Army > (or the Brigham sacrament scene for that matter) and believe that Dutcher was > just fine in his use of ordinances and blessings, but that's not to say that > there isn't a line which can't be crossed in this regard. To me, showing > baptisms and healings are far different than depicting the temple ceremony. Exactly. There is a line, and God drew it: in or out of the temple. His line is good enough for me. > But the fact that other people draw the line different than I do, does not make me > feel like they don't want to be seen, don't want to be "truthful", or that they > are "hiding their light under a bushel" so to speak. Others are welcome to draw the line where they think best--for themselves. They are welcome to take Scott Parkin's approach to things he feels uncomfortable with: "I couldn't do it, but if you're fine with it, knock yourself out." But that's not what's happening. These people are saying, "_I_ don't feel comfortable doing it, so _you_ better not do it." They are trying to draw the line for others, not for themselves. I respect their right to draw their own line--why do they not respect my right to draw mine? This is only another variation of my favorite saying that I've coined: "If you don't think like me, you're evil." (There, Margaret, a little taste of what I really think.) -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 09 May 2001 08:47:21 -0600 David Hansen wrote: > > "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > > How does a church > > which claims to represent the God of Truth and fight against the Father > > of Lies have so many people in it who think depicting truth in art is an > > evil thing? When did "truthful," "accurate," or "factual" stop being > > sufficient justifications in and of themselves? > > I've talked long and hard with friends who felt very uncomfortable with God's > Army because of the healing and baptism scenes. I used to feel as strongly as D. > Michael on this issue, but lately I've mellowed towards these friends because I > realized that they are not afraid of the movie depictions as "truthful" or > "accurate," but are instead afraid of "casting their pearls before swine." The > best example I can think of is if you went to a movie theater and watched a > "truthful" or "accurate" depiction of the endowment. The problem with that comparison is that any *swine* walking into an LDS Church can see a live sacrament. With regard to sacredness, spirituality, there is absolutely no comparison between a Sacrament meeting, with screaming children, people coming in and out, etc. and the quiet solemnity of the endowment. > I doubt many members of the > church would feel comfortable in that situation. My friends equate the > ordinances and power of the priesthood with sacredness, and by depicting the > ordinances, even accurately, you cheapen them. What your friends are doing, in my opinion, is making a very public ceremony (the sacrament) more sacred than it actually is. Baptisms fit into the same category. Non-members can be invited, sit and watch. As long as those two ordinances are shown respectfully, within the proper context, I personally see nothing wrong with it. > To me it's a matter of line drawing. It is. And your friends, imo, are arbitrarily drawing a line that isn't really there. --- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: [AML] League of Utah Writers Date: 08 May 2001 20:58:04 -0600 If any of you are interested: May 7, 2001 Dear League Member: I have been told by numerous members of the League that they have lost their contest rules and entry form. I had planned to send another mailing of the contest information with the May Lariat, but it will be too cost prohibitive. So, if you have lost yours and need another copy, please do one of the following: 1) email me and I will send them as an attachment over email; or, 2) mail me a SASE and I will get them back to you in the mail. My address is 4621 W. Harman Dr., WVC, UT 84120. Please watch for the Roundup Registration material in the May Lariat which will be arriving to you within the week. Please keep track of it. Fill it out early and send in your registration before it gets lost. You save a lost of $$ if you register before the earlybird deadline. We need your help in spreading the word about the 2001 Roundup. For those of you who have a flair for Mystery and especially Historical Mystery, we are bringing Anne Perry all the way from Scotland to be one of our Guest Speakers this year. Please tell everyone you know about her being here. We want to fill the house for her General Session on September 8th. There is also a limited number of opportunities for writers to meet one-on-one with either a Literary Agent or an Editor from New York City (only 10 slots for each of them). You will need to register for one of those slots ASAP after getting the Roundup Registration Form, otherwise the 20 slots will be filled. It will be $25 for the one-on-one consultation. The money will need to be mailed to me before we can reserve a time slot. If you have any comments or questions about the League, or about the annual contest, or about Roundup, or about the upcoming Spring Workshop on May 26 at the Salt Lake City Library, please feel free to contact me. We are glad you are a member of the League and look forward to having you get involved in the events going on this summer (Spring Workshop, annual contest, and Roundup), and I hope you are preparing something to enter in the contest. Don't forget the June 15th deadline. Good Luck in all your writing, Dorothy Crofts - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG and GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (Review) Date: 09 May 2001 09:42:50 -0600 (MDT) >Which brings me to the Notes at the end of each chapter. Each chapter >ends with notes offering the authors' sources for history, for >philosophies, for quotations, and for anything else they used. It's >kind of _Pop-Up Video_-ish, offering the authors' secret information >in real time. I found, as I read, that I'd look forward to getting to > the Notes to see what had really been said and what the authors made up. > But the Notes are a two-edged sword; while enjoyable and educating, >they suggest the book's biggest weakness: it can't decide if it's >history or fiction. Several times the Notes repeat exactly what happened in the chapter, only from Jane's history and in her words. And at times they suggest that the authors don't trust the reader, such as at the end of Chapter 7: > My biggest problems with the book (which I loved) were also the notes - but not in content - in placement. Having the historical notes immeditely after each chapter interrupted the story and helped create that odd feeling of "is this history of fiction?" rather than helping with the notion of considering it as historical fiction. It would have been easier to consider it as historical fiction if perhaps the notes for each chapter had bee put in an appendix at the end of the book, so that the rest of it could have flowed like a more typical formatted historicla ficiton book - I can't say I read a lot of historical fiction, but most of what I have read does put the notes in the back of the book, rather then interrupting the narrative by putting them in between each chapter. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] DAVIS, _The Other Side of Heaven_ (Movie) Date: 09 May 2001 23:42:29 +0900 There is a very interesting article by Kieth Merrill at Meridian Magazine about Mitch Davis' upcoming movie, including detailed descriptions of the backgrounds of Davis and producer Jerry Molen. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/arts/010509heaven.html Andrew Hall _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Date: 09 May 2001 10:05:03 -0600 What a wonderful fable, Larry. Thanks for posting it! Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- > This weekend, I took five of my sons to our stake > father and son campout. During the hour-long > drive to camp, we passed by two freight trains. > As we went by each train, three of my younger > sons began to count the number of cars on the track. [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Diary of Anne Frank (Review) Date: 09 May 2001 10:19:35 -0600 Thanks so much, Harlow! This is a WONDERFUL review, and I'm only sad we didn't get it out before the play ended. (Monday night.) I am now doing the laundry (About ten batches, plus a huge bunch of dry cleaning.) It was a fabulous production, and one we can certainly be proud of. And we are so grateful for your attendance! And if anyone else is interested in the fact that the Villa refuses to be ignored or will just lie down and die because there are 18 other more recent theatres in production than there were when we started, they are welcome to come to any of our shows! "Sleeping Beauty" was SO GOOD for young people! (And after all, that's where it starts--with the children--which is why we are probably going to be the largest and most persevering children's group in the area.) Thank you again! Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 09 May 2001 11:23:35 -0600 On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 09:19:59PM -0600, Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > I applaud Dutcher for being willing to share part of what it is to be > Mormon to a general audience, and to do so in a way that makes those > special moments seem completely ordinary in context. He helps to show > that Mormon religious life is not really any stranger than Catholic > or Jewish or Unitarian religious life. In other words, while the > details may be different the general framework religious framework is > familiar. I think we have to also look at the literary precedents for such depictions. I have probably seen more Catholic communions and Jewish weddings on screen than I have ever attended Mormon baptisms in person. Does watching sacred Catholic rituals disturb our sense of propriety? Not usually. Why do we seem to think that we have some corner on the market for religious ceremony? In fact, our ceremonies lean toward the bland side when compared to other religions' rituals. For example, compare a Catholic Easter mass with an Easter general conference. > The Church ends up overpowering far too many stories because Mormon > writers seem to believe that if anything Mormon is depicted, it has > to take center stage. I disagree. By depicting the ordinary rituals > of Mormon life as exactly that--ordinary--we create more > opportunities for people outside our community to know and understand > us at a deeper level than they have before. I think the discomfort for depicting our rituals comes from two sources. First, we blur the line between the temple covenants and our "everyday" rituals. Although we have no obligation to keep baptism and sacrament a secret, we start to associate the promises made in the temple with these other public ordinances. Second, we get a sense of pride from owning the true ordinances of the gospel. We don't mind watching the false ordinances of those other fake religions, but we don't really want to share our true ones. I agree with Scott and others that we should not balk at depicting the everyday rituals and practices of Mormon people, but only if that depiction has a bearing on the story. Dutcher didn't include the baptism in _Brigham City_ to show the everyday nature of that ritual. He included that scene to obscure your suspicions about various characters. If a character performs a baptism or receives baptism, we tend to move our suspicions away from that righteous character and on to other characters who don't seem to have such a religious commitment. Dutcher includes the first sacrament scene (although he spends far to long in it) to establish the regular case, so he can demonstrate the exceptional case in the second scene. I like Dutcher's everyday, flawed characters. I gag when other artists (in any medium) depict Mormon characters as some sort of paragon of virtue. Hardly anyone has the carriage and bearing of President Hinckley. Yet book after book display entire communities of people who have the spiritual insights of the prophets. Only the main character has any flaws that so starkly contrast with the community, that the character has no choice but to repent and join the community or resign the community for a life of ostracism. We have probably all had spiritual experiences, and many of us try to live our lives so that if we were to randomly sample our level of spirituality, that the values of the samples would increase when sorted in chronological order. I have received revelation, but I don't receive it everyday. I'm hardly worthy of revelation, even when I do receive it. I want to read about everyday people that live their lives from a background of Mormon theology, but I don't want read a book that tries to convert its audience. E. B. White wrote, "Don't write about Man, write about a man." In the case of Mormon literature, I would extend that to, "Don't write about a Man's religion, write about a man with religion." I have not seen a publication that I though properly handled Mormonism as an incidental character trait. Scott Card's _Lost Boys_ probably comes closest, but as I have said in other posts, I found the Mormon aspect gratuitous. Now I must admit that most of my observations about Mormon literature come from my stint at Covenant. I left Covenant in December 1993, and have only read a few of the novels published since then. So with that disclaimer in mind, I want to cite an example of a book that properly integrates the characters' background and belief system into the plot: Neil Stephenson's _Cryptonomicon._ In _Cryptonomicon,_ one of the characters, Lawrence, has an amazing ability with mathematics, and all his observations about life come from mathematical analysis. If he has a personal problem, he approaches the problem mathematically. He gathers statistics, examines cases, postulates theorems, and draws graphs (included in the book). Stephenson doesn't try to prove anything about mathematics. He just demonstrates that his character views life from a mathematical perspective. To me a satisfying depiction of Mormon characters demonstrates how the character's observations about life come from the character's Mormonness. The author doesn't have to justify Mormonism as a religion, but instead, just demonstrate how that Mormonness has shaped the character's worldview. In essence, I want a story about a person in a Mormon context, not a story about the Mormon context. -- Terry Jeffress | However great a man's natural talent may | be, the art of writing cannot be learned AML Webmaster and | all at once. -- Jean Jacques Rousseau AML-List Review Archivist | - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Jeff Needle Date: 09 May 2001 09:23:39 -0700 Hello, Roy. In fact, I know him quite well. A real pain in the neck, but we love him anyway . When my roommate passed away Saturday before last, I knew I had to move fairly quickly, so I've been working round the clock getting things together. I'll be staying in the same apartment complex, just moving to a smaller apartment. It's the best thing. I'm boxing up my Mormon books right now. It looks like I'll have about 75 boxes of books, many of them duplicates and triplicates that I've been purchasing at DI. I'll have to find a local who is willing to spend a day with me sorting through them, with payment given in books. Anyone in San Diego interested? I appreciate the nice note. Thanks. At 05:13 PM 5/8/01 -0600, you wrote: >Has anyone heard from Jeff. How is he doing? > >Roy Schmidt > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] Jeff Needle Date: 09 May 2001 12:00:35 -0600 Glad to hear from you, Jeff. Once you get them boxed up, just ship them to me. I'll even pick up the freight, nice guy that I am. Roy >>> Jeff Needle 05/09/01 10:23AM >>> Hello, Roy. In fact, I know him quite well. A real pain in the neck, but we love him anyway . When my roommate passed away Saturday before last, I knew I had to move fairly quickly, so I've been working round the clock getting things together. I'll be staying in the same apartment complex, just moving to a smaller apartment. It's the best thing. I'm boxing up my Mormon books right now. It looks like I'll have about 75 boxes of books, many of them duplicates and triplicates that I've been purchasing at DI. I'll have to find a local who is willing to spend a day with me sorting through them, with payment given in books. Anyone in San Diego interested? I appreciate the nice note. Thanks. At 05:13 PM 5/8/01 -0600, you wrote: >Has anyone heard from Jeff. How is he doing? > >Roy Schmidt > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 09 May 2001 18:18:03 -0000 Travis Manning wrote: "My wife asked me why an LDS moviemaker would attempt to even make _Brigham City_, a *fictional* piece. Why fiction? My response: Christ used fiction." Travis, I have heard these same sentiments from so many people, especially LDS people who I respect. Unfortunately, you are right (via Wayne Booth) that the LDS culture will not have great art, until it has a great audience, and I feel we have a long way to go. I think the question, "Why fiction?" is an important question to answer, and needs more discussion and development. Christ used fiction in his mortal ministy, but why? Was there a particular cultural enviroment in first century Judea that fictional stories worked better, or were better recieved, than they are today? I think that Christ's parables were not didactic moralizing that were used to beat an obvious lesson into someone's head. Instead, the parable's meanings were hidden withing a fictional story that could be seen as a neutral story with no obvious moral lessons. But of course, those who had ears to hear, or eyes to see, understood what the story meant. The parables were not what they seemed at face value. I believe that Christ used a type of irony, and used it to teach the gospel through fiction. Of course he didn't use irony in the way so many post modern novelist's do; but his approach was subtle; he wanted to tell a story, without telling so much that the meaning was obvious. The incongruity between the face value of the parable, and the hidden meaning gained for listeners and readers, is where the irony is seen. I think great fiction should use irony, in the real sense of the word, to explore and develop their fictional worlds, charater development and the moral choices they make. (BTW, I think the word "irony" and "ironic" is mis-abused. I hear and read the word "irony" and "ironic" used in such way in that it is intended to mean "coincendence," "something wierd," "a strange happening," "synchornicity," etc... which of course it doesn't literally mean any of those things. I suggest anyone who uses the word "irony" or "ironic" should look it up in their Dictionary.) I think members are easily put off by films and novels, because they are uncomfortable with irony. Unless the story has an obvious lesson being blatantly taught by the author, people are afraid. Christ never used his fictional stories to teach blantant, obvious, didactic lessons. I think that is one idea we should ponder. Dallas Robbins cloudhill@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tyler Moulton" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing about Mormon Characters Date: 09 May 2001 12:22:33 -0600 LauraMaery Gold wrote: <<>> I don't remember which book, but one of Tom Clancy's has this very scene. = Jack Ryan drives past the D.C. Temple and experiences almost a moral = conversion as he considers the dedication of the early Latter-day Saints. That's how a non-member handled the scene. Just thought I'd throw it = in.=20 Tyler Moulton - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: maryjanejones@att.net Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 09 May 2001 18:41:31 +0000 >I read a number of non-LDS reviews of "God's Army." > Whatever their take was on the quality of the film, >none of them acted "swinishly" toward the religious >rites themselves. I've not noticed one piece of feedback >from any source that mocked the religious elements of >the film. Some have questioned whether they were used >effectively by the filmmaker, but no one has treated >them with anything but respect. I thought that the list might be interested in what non-LDS reviewers are saying currently about Brigham City, specifically about the religious ordinances in the film: "And after two hours of this skillful, unusually despairing murder-mystery, it's obvious that Dutcher has delivered on that ambition, crafting not only a more artful, philosophically daring work than his last film, but also what may represent the happiest marriage yet of the disparate propagandistic and narrative influences inherent in the subgenre of "religious" cinema....One of the key factors that sets "Brigham City" (and "God's Army") apart from other recent religious-themed movies is that Dutcher, while a practicing Mormon, is not directly affiliated with any evangelical organization, nor does his financing derive from such sources. Rather, he is a typical independent filmmaker, driven by the atypical impetus to make films for a predominantly Mormon audience. What makes "Brigham City" compelling to a non-Mormon audience is the finely detailed manner in which Dutcher elucidates the goings-on of small town Mormon life. Despite a more commercial premise than "God's Army," "Brigham City" is actually the more revealing about the subtleties of the insular Mormon culture.... "Brigham City" may indeed be the best film of this ilk (i.e., one that rekindles a long-dormant forum for the discussion of serious faith-related issues in the American cinema) since Michael Tolkein's "The Rapture" over a decade ago.... He builds the dilemma of Wes' affronted faith into a supremely powerful climax that surely qualifies as one of the tensest communion services ever put on film." DAILY VARIETY "Very much in the "Witness" mold, this involving, nicely crafted whodunit achieves the neat trick of remaining culturally and theologically true to its environment without being heavy-handed or preachy." HOLLYWOOD REPORTER "Mr. Dutcher keeps the suspense building to a climax that should surprise even the most seasoned of police-thriller veterans. He then wraps things up with a simple, moving scene in church, illustrative of the power of love and forgiveness. But even there he's smart enough to give the end of the film an interesting little twist that'll have people thinking as the credits roll. In an age when more often than not religious films fall into the Left Behind paranoid-future-fantasy genre, it's refreshing to find someone more concerned with how to live here and now." DALLAS MORNING NEWS "([Dutcher]also has the dexterity to handle a well- modulated redemptive subtext that sows strong seeds of hope in an astonishing, dialogue-free denouement.) To be sure, the movie's tightly-wound scenario has been struck from a familiar mold. (Though, in that same vein, it's refreshing to encounter a thriller with a story rich enough that it cannot be concluded merely by the dispatching of its villain.)" MR. SHOWBIZ And that's just a sampling... Mary Jane Jones - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Jessica WOAHN and Erica GLENN Profile Date: 09 May 2001 11:59:07 -0700 Opened my PG Reveiw this morning and saw a picture of Jessica Woahn and Erica Glenn on the front page. There's a shorter, somewhat different profile, which if the Herald doesn't run soon I'll post sometime next week. I enjoyed interviewing them. I was particularly touched, when Erica invited her younger brother Dylan to come and sing one of her songs, at her evident affection for him. Jessica Woahn and Erica Glenn Profile Pleasant Grove Review, May 9, 2001, p. 1, 12. Harlow Clark Jessica Woahn and Erica Glenn met about 5 years ago at age 9 in a production of Pollyanna and have been friends since. Last year they played opposite each other in two productions of Erica's musical "Dancing Shoes," and recently shared the role of Anne Frank in Springville in the Little Brown Theatre's production of The Diary of Anne Frank. They approached the role rather differently. Jessica plays Anne Frank austerely, almost caged, reflecting what Anne's father says at the end of the play, "It seems strange that someone could be happy in a concentration camp--but Anne was away from these rooms and in the sunshine she loved so much." Erica's Anne was more optimistic, more the girl who says, "In spite of everything I believe people are basically good." She is also a bit more mischievous. To avoid raising suspicion by carrying suitcases, the Franks wore several layers of clothes going into hiding. As Erica's Anne comes onstage she starts taking off extra underpants. "Anne," her mother says. "Don't worry, mother. I have three more pairs on." Both found the role interesting and challenging. Anne "goes from sulky to angry to mischievous," Erica says. "Broad range," Jessica adds. Jessica has been trained in classical ballet, but is also studying other dance forms such as jazz and tap and is part of a new "dancing, singing group" called Young Attitude, which, she says will perform all over the state, first performance May 10. Erica is working on a new play. She has some songs done and a basic outline. The play is about a girl named Sharlee, "I named her after my mom," who has been paralyzed in an accident and is mostly in shock Sharlee meets an Irish boy named Dylan who plays the flute for her and starts to bring her out of her shock. "Dylan," Jessica says, laughing. "I named them after people I know," Erica says and calls her younger brother Dylan into the room a few minutes later to sing one of the songs from the play. She describes another song that deals with all the cultures Sharlee meets in New York. "They all sing their own style and it comes together in one song." That's a theme she explored in Dancing Shoes, art's power to bring people together and heal divisions, but the new play will deepen that, exploring art as a way of healing prejudice. Where do they see their careers heading? "I would like to keep acting and be a director," Jessica says, who has already directed some productions and run some summer workshops for other children. "Get a degree in musical theater and be a Young Ambassador," referring to a BYU performing group. She would also like to perform with Disney, and be a choreographer. Indeed, she finds herself attracted to musical theater because it brings all her talents together. "I'd like to see one of my plays produced on Broadway, at least one," Erica says. She'd also like to be a piano teacher, work she already does, and even open a theater, like Bill and Marilyn Brown, who have given her much encouragement and mounted the first production of Dancing Shoes at the Villa Theater. The second was at Valley Center Playhouse, and she'd like to see a production at BYU. "What I'd really like to do with my life is make a difference. Like Anne says, Anne Frank, ‘I want to go on living even after my death.' That's such a wonderful line. I want to help people." A few minutes later, after playing some songs from Dancing Shoes while Jessica sings them, Erica comments on something in the program notes for The Diary of Anne Frank, that though six million Jews died in the concentration camps, six million copies of Anne's diary have been circulated in the U.S., and there are other translations as well. "I just thought that was so neat--the power of one to do so much good. She wanted to go on living after her death, and she sure did." Harlow S. Clark http://harlowclark0.tripod.com/index.html Renounce war and proclaim peace. --Joseph Smith, August 6 I have committed sundry mouldy solecisms; yet I was not born to desecrate literature. --Edward Dahlberg ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 09 May 2001 12:54:40 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > Well, they're entitled to their opinion, but I'm still scratching my > head trying to figure out where the notion came from that sacred always > has to mean hush-hush or hide-hide. Especially when you consider the fact that there is very little taught in the temple that one cannot find clealy and opening taught in our own scriptures. It's the way the temple presents them that is sacred, not the ideas themselves. > If they're so sacred that they > shouldn't be cheapened by any form of depiction, why aren't all of them > performed in the temple where no one but a select few can witness them? > God doesn't seem concerned about nonmembers witnessing non-temple > ordinances, as long as the environment is respectful; why should we be? > I consider Dutcher's depictions to be respectful. As a playwright, I consider the format of the Endowment to be an implicit endorsement of the dramatic art form. Christ also seemed to think that stories was a good way to get great spiritual truths across. > > I didn't have any problem with God's Army > > (or the Brigham sacrament scene for that matter) and believe that Dutcher was > > just fine in his use of ordinances and blessings, but that's not to say that > > there isn't a line which can't be crossed in this regard. To me, showing > > baptisms and healings are far different than depicting the temple ceremony. > > Exactly. There is a line, and God drew it: in or out of the temple. His > line is good enough for me. His "line" also shows us what kind of subject matter is appropriate for an LDS writer: basically, everything. The Bible has stories that deal with virtually every subject you can conceive of, including incest, rape, adultery, murder, nudity, and lust. The line of acceptability is very broad, if one can refrain from superimposing one's own prejudices over the line. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 09 May 2001 13:02:33 -0600 Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > > I ask, because I think this happens a lot in our better wrought > works. In an effort to show real people with real issues, Mormon > artists often fail to show anyone with a solid faith, focusing > instead on only those with problems or eccentricities, and that > bothers some people as much as the overly saccharine versions do. > It's not that the challenging depictions are inaccurate, as much as > the exclusion of "faithful" depictions that bothers. Show me a Mormon with a solid faith, and I'll be glad to write about them. For me, "solid" means unshakable, unwavering, etc. and I'm not sure there's a person in this church who represents that ideal one hundred percent of the time. I do know of at least two Mormons that an unshakable faith: Ron and Dan Lafferty: certain at every juncture that God was with them. I'd rather look through a glass darkly. > I hope we as a culture learn to be confident enough in our own faith > that we're not afraid of depictions that dare to show opposites in > action. Culturally, we're at the high school level. We think our high school is better than anybody else's because we're in it. And don't you dare make fun of our high school. When we mature as a culture (and Richard is helping us to go in that direction), we will know it. It will be like going to our ten year reunion. We'll look back on our high school years and fondly laugh about our adolescent foibles. > I've never met a single person with a perfect > faith--missionary or otherwise. It's not whether our faith is fully > formed that matters to me, but rather that good people honestly seek > the truth through effort and struggle and sometimes pain. Hear, hear. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Hansen Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 09 May 2001 13:13:14 -0600 Another underlying attitude of those who are critical of Dutcher is the sense that "If the Church isn't doing it, then it shouldn't be done." Members are used to videos and productions coming directly from the institutional church that it is difficult to suddenly accept something which comes from a source outside the direct influence of the correlation committee (even if it's good). My guess is that if the church had publicly endorsed God's Army, not as doctrinally, but as wholesome entertainment, most of thes same people that are critical of the movie would quickly change their minds. (I'm not implying that the church SHOULD have endorsed it, just the attitude that the church will endorse anything that's good.) One of the things that I've heard repeatedly over the last few general conferences is the directive to surround ourselves with the "best books, art, and music." I continually want to scream (in a respectful way) at the TV, "Like what?!" Of course giving specific examples of good literature sets a person up for criticism, but at least it would give a starting point for members of the church to say, "Yeah, there are good things outside the institutional church that were created in the last 100 years." Just a thought. "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > Well, they're entitled to their opinion, but I'm still scratching my > head trying to figure out where the notion came from that sacred always > has to mean hush-hush or hide-hide. If they're so sacred that they > shouldn't be cheapened by any form of depiction, why aren't all of them > performed in the temple where no one but a select few can witness them? > God doesn't seem concerned about nonmembers witnessing non-temple > ordinances, as long as the environment is respectful; why should we be? > I consider Dutcher's depictions to be respectful. Again, I agree with you, but I think that people who struggle with these movies would say that the "enviornment" of a movie theather is not "respectful" enough for them. > But that's not what's happening. These people are saying, "_I_ don't > feel comfortable doing it, so _you_ better not do it." They are trying > to draw the line for others, not for themselves. I respect their right > to draw their own line--why do they not respect my right to draw mine? > This is only another variation of my favorite saying that I've coined: > "If you don't think like me, you're evil." I think you're going to far here. There may be some that have this view, but the majority of those I talk to think that it's fine for Dutcher to make these movies, just don't expect me to watch them. They may think that these scenes are inappropriate, but I don't believe (at least I hope) that they don't think I'm evil for liking them. The bigger problem may be whether any filmmaker, artist, or musician outside the institutional church can produce anything that does not cast the church or its members in a 100% positive light will be seen by a significant number of its members as being "bad" or "wrong." If Dutcher's statements that he is making films "about Mormons for Mormons" is true, then I worry about him offending a significant portion of his target audience and being unable to continue to support his ventures. (Course with the relative success of God's Army and Brigham maybe I worry too much. :)) Dave Hansen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Fw: Chieko Okazaki Speaks at AML Conference Date: 09 May 2001 13:37:10 -0700 Another piece of old news I've neglected to post. I forgot to mention the Cat's Cradle, and what would a talk about Chieko Okazaki's props be without the Cat's Cradle. I wish I had had room to do more. I hope I included enough quotes to show that Chieko is, indeed, a writer--even if her aim is to teach. Okazaki teaches lessons with metaphors HARLOW CLARK Lindon Correspondent on Wednesday, March 21 This story appeared in The Daily Herald on page A16. "Don’t miss a literary feast," said posters on Westminster College campus during the recent ( feb. 24) Association for Mormon Letters annual meeting, referring to the closing address from Chieko Okazaki, former counselor in the LDS Church’s General Relief Society presidency. Okazaki began her talk by saying she hoped none of the audience would feel afterwards like Groucho Marx, "I’ve had a wonderful time, but this wasn’t it." She then said, "When I received the 2nd devotional award in 1998 I thought, ‘I’m tied with Elder Maxwell." She paused for laughter and said her comment was a bit of a joke. "If I’m not mistaken, Elder Maxwell is a writer. I’m a teacher." She noted that "English is not my first language, it is my third," broken Japanese and pidgin English being the first two, and said she would structure her talk around a list of questions her old friend, AML president Cherry Silver, had given her, including, "How did you dare take visual metaphors to the pulpit in General Conference and General Women’s meeting?" "I didn’t know I couldn’t." So saying, she introduced some of her props, a set of oars labeled Study, and Faith, a basket of fresh fruit, and a bottle of peaches, asking if anyone remembered them. They did, and she talked about the messages behind the metaphors, the difference between gospel principles and cultural packaging, and the relationship between study and faith. "Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief is the opposite of faith. My questions are an important part of my faith." To illustrate the power of asking questions she told how she was in a Gospel Doctrine class one day listening to a discussion of the biblical story of Abraham and Isaac. "I think I’ve heard this same lesson before, made in the same way to make the same point, since 1942. 1942 is when I joined the Church," she said, smiling, and added, "I’ve noticed it’s the men who think sacrificing your son is a good thing. The women mostly look at their laps and read their scriptures." "Since 1942 I’ve wondered how Sarah felt. I raised my hand and asked a question. Do you think Abraham talked this over with Sarah?" That provoked quite a bit of discussion, even after the class. Referring to the quality of the discussion she said, "I didn’t say another word in that class. It was the best lesson on Abraham and Isaac I’d heard since 1942." She spoke at length about working with people on the edges of her culture. "I’ve learned so much from listening to gays and lesbians who are working so desperately to find a way in this very straight church." She said she had sometimes found her assignments overwhelming, as when the Holy Spirit told her to speak to a group in Portland Oregon about sexual abuse. "I knew exactly what Jonah had felt when he would rather run away to Tarshish than take the ship to Ninevah," but she found the talk filled a tremendous need in survivors of sexual abuse, and that other talks on that subject would "shove the sin away, but also the survivor away with the sin," offering no consolation. "Now, a word to you as critics," she said, inviting Scott Parkin of Santaquin up on stage. Did he know how to play Jung Ken Po (paper, rock, scissors)? No. She taught him, won three times, and asked the audience to play with each other. Then she taught Pease Porridge Hot and asked everyone to play with each other. She said one game is based on competition and luck and the other on cooperation, "You can’t do it right unless your partner also does it right." She ended with a note that Chieko means "one who embraces knowledge," and three comments about the importance of telling stories. "Stories are the oars we need to move our boat forward without going around in circles." What form should the stories take? "My brothers and sisters use any form you can find." "How many times does Joseph Smith need to go int the grove of trees? As many times as it takes for each of us to go in with him and come out knowing God and Jesus love us." Harlow Clark can be contacted at harlowclark@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Re: Church Problems in Lit Date: 09 May 2001 19:49:52 -0500 Not to be picky, but the only three definitions shown in my dictionary for "fable" include the terms "fictitious" or "myth". It was a true story. Maybe there is another definition in a bigger dictionary or something. "Tale" and "story" just seem so plain ... :-> But, I think I should thank you for a compliment, anyway. Larry Jackson > From: "Brown" > What a wonderful fable, Larry. Thanks for posting it! Marilyn Brown > From: Larry Jackson > > This weekend, I took five of my sons to our stake > > father and son campout. During the hour-long > > drive to camp, we passed by two freight trains. > > As we went by each train, three of my younger > > sons began to count the number of cars on the track. > [snip] ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Utah County Writers Receive Recognition (AML Awards) Date: 09 May 2001 13:32:18 -0700 This is old news. I've included in brackets some comments Sharon Gholdston edited out, for length, I think. I'm forwarding the article because, until today, it was the only article I've had in the Herald that got any comments on their website, and the comments might be interesting, given recent discussions of rhetoric and Mormon / Non-Mormon relations, and some Mormon reactions to "God's Army" as an anti-Mormon film. Utah County writers receive recognition HARLOW CLARK Lindon Correspondent on Wednesday, March 21. This story appeared in The Daily Herald on page A16. SALT LAKE CITY -- The Association for Mormon Letters held their annual meeting recently and Utah County writers played a large part. This year's awards included an award in short fiction to Darrell Spencer, formerly of BYU, his third award, for the collection "Caution: Men in Trees." The citation praised the collection's language: "Every story is a downpour of image, a deluge of metaphor, a torrent of detail. In fact, it is a flood of everything that the judge holds sacred." Gordon B. Hinckley received an award in the essay category for "Standing for Something," -- "a forthright, unflinching call for society to return to its moral moorings." Patricia Holland received an award in devotional writing for "The Quiet Heart" -- "the quintessential inspirational book. It leads readers gently, quietly, and steadily toward having hearts filled with charity -- for themselves, for others, and for God." Richard Dutcher received an award in film for "God's Army," -- "a lovely, intimate film, a film of understatement and modesty." None of these awardees was present, nor was Benson Parkinson, who received an award in criticism for his work in founding and moderating for five years AML-List, the Association's e-mail discussion forum. Robin Parkinson accepted the award explaining that her husband was sick. Margaret Blair Young received an award in drama for "I Am Jane," her play about Jane Manning James and other black Mormon pioneers. She was present but asked Keith Hamilton, who played Isaac James, to accept the award. [She was present, but asked Keith Hamilton, who played Isaac James, to accept the award. Young has said several times that she feels the play belongs to the cast as much as to her. Accepting the award, Hamilton said, "The original title was supposed to be ‘We are Isaac and Jane,’ but Margaret shot that down." I Am Jane was originally performed at a meeting of the Genesis Group, an official unit of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which has stewardship over black members throughout the United States. Writing Feb. 14 on AML-List about that performance, Young said that Elder David B. Haight was there, and Hamilton asked her "if he could say (as Isaac returning to Jane after 20 years absence and asking for a bed) ‘I ain't strong enough to take you on in bed anyway, though the memory sure do bring back sweet memories!’ I had already written the "ain't strong enough to take you on in bed..." part, but not the memory part. I said, "Sure Keith. You say that--and look right at Elder Haight when you do." He did, and said later, "And it looked like he put his arm around his wife and squeezed her in close."] Margaret Blair Young and Darius Gray won an award in the novel for "Standing on the Promises Vol. 1: One More River to Cross," which tells much the same story as "I Am Jane," but in much greater detail. "Darius could not be here today. He's in the Manti Temple with a Genesis sister who's being endowed," Young said, referring to Gray's calling as president of the Genesis Group. Young paid tribute to Eugene England who was in the hospital following brain surgery earlier in the week. "He's my writing mentor and I wish he were here today." Richard Cracroft received an honorary lifetime membership for his good-humored, sometimes feisty contributions to Mormon letters, including the pioneering anthology "A Believing People," which he edited with Neal Lambert. The awards banquet ended with Springville's Marilyn Brown, outgoing AML president, reading passages from a diary she discovered that she had kept at age 16, a funny and interesting window on small town Mormon life and romance in the mid 1950s. Some commented afterward that they thought it would make a good young adult novel. AML offers an award in the young adult novel category, but the awards chair, Scott Parkin, said later that he hadn't had time to gather a large body of young adult writing from the previous year and AML might end up honoring more than one novel in that category next year. The full text of the citations is available on Gideon Burton's Mormon Literature Home Page at http://humanities.byu.edu/MLDB/AML%20Awards/Awards2000.htm, which also has a link to nominate other work. The AML's home page is www.xmission.com/~aml. Harlow Clark can be contacted at harlowclark@juno.com. Re: Utah County writers receive recognition by Martin Fullard on Thursday, March 22 @ 01:47:55 MST I think it is very sad when people who so obviously "feel" they are doing "God's work", are misleading many. I am one of those Evangelical Christians. I happen to believe that the Bible is the ONLY word of God, I happen to believe that Mormonism is originally Satanically inspired. I am very saddened by this newspaper which so obviously is L.D.S bias. I am wondering what percentage of the staff is Mormon. I presume that it is L.D.S owned. Either way, the REAL Jesus, that is the Jesus of the Bible, Him ALONE being Lord, AND God, is certainly not welcomed in your newspaper. Yes, the Jesus of the Bible, the TRUE Jesus is not wewlcomed in Mormonism. Maybe if I was interested in becoming a god, or if I was interested in one day having multiple wives while "I" rule my own planet. Maybe then, Mormonism and your newspaper would be interested. I guarantee that Mormonism and your newspaper are not interested in a loving, Merciful, compassionate God who took on Human Flesh and died for the sins of all, (Including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Gordon B. Hinkley). Jesus is interested in you, even if you are not interested in Him. He is so interested in you, that He died for you. His death brings FREE new life in Him, not earned by works, but ALONE by His grace. Your choice, JESUS,Lord, Almighty God and the ONLY way, or Joseph Smith. You either put your trust in Jesus or Joseph Smith. You either believe that, as ACTS chapter 4 verse 12 says, "There is salvation in no other name, for there is NO other name given to man, by which we maust be saved." Or you don't. Mormonism although, "it claims" to represent Jesus, Mormons claim that Jesus is their Savior. The Mormon "version" of Jesus is different from the Biblical Jesus. Mormonism calims that Jesus was "created" from a sexual relationship with His Father and Mary. This is totally unBiblical and unrighteous. Mormonism claims that Jesus was married to both Mary and Martha, once again, there is NO Biblical proof for this trash. Perhaps even worse is the teaching, that planet earth is one of literally billions of planets that all have a "Jesus type"savior, and a satan "type" figure. On each of these "planets", this "Jesus type figure" died for that planet. One day, each mission serving, Temple serving Mormon can too have his own planet and wife. This is so blasphemous and rediculous that it isn't funny. No where in the BIBLE can you find this. I WOULD ASK YOU, AS A NEWSPAPER TO EXAMINE YOURSELVES AND ASK, SHOULD WE REALLY BE ENDORSING B.Y.U AND OTHER MORMON BUSINESS BECAUSE OF SUCH UN-BIBLICAL TEACHINGS. As a Christian, I can see NO similarity between The Bible and Mormonism. I can see plenty of similarity between Mormonism and the Freemasons, and the ancient teaching of the Greeks (gods), but nothing to associate with the Jesus of the Bible. Please think about it. Yours faithfully, Martin Fullard. Before you hit back at me with regard to "ancient scripture", please note that I do read Hebrew and Greek. I have also read the Book of Mormon, and I will be very pleased to practically demonstrate through the Bible, the various errors in the Mormon Church.Threshold Re: Utah County writers receive recognition (Score: 0) by Anonymous on Thursday, March 22 @ 10:59:32 MST >>> I am wondering what percentage of the [Herald] staff is Mormon. I presume that it is L.D.S owned. I work at the Herald, and while we don't do surveys on religious affiliation (I don't believe it's legal for an employer to ask), I imagine the makeup is roughly similar to the general population. Many of the staff, including management, are not LDS. The LDS Church does not own The Daily Herald. Pulitzer (a St. Louis media corporation) does. I understand why you feel the paper is biased. We hear the same thing whenever people read something in the paper that they don't like.....which happens a lot. You would likely be surprised how many people think our paper is biased against the Church! Yes, at the newspaper, we hear it all: We're pro-BYU, anti-BYU, pro-police, anti-police, pro-Olympics, anti-SLOC, too liberal, ultra-conservative, too worldly, too provincial....and guess what: They're all right! We're supposed to reflect ALL perspectives of the community. And since we've managed to both please and annoy just about every segment of the local population, I'd say the paper is is doing its job just fine. **************** BTW, Martin Fullard's comments remind me of something Robert Kirby said in his "5 Kinds of Non-Mormons" (a follow-up to his "5 Kinds of Mormons," surely one of the few newspaper columns ever to get a letter to the editor from the publisher denouncing the column), regarding Irked Non-Mormons, his third category: "Irk-nons have a hard time understanding why a state founded by Mormons, populated largely by Mormons, and generally run by Mormons should reflect mostly Mormon values" (Sunday of the Living Dead, p. 7) Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 09 May 2001 20:13:17 -0600 At 09:19 PM 5/4/01 -0600, you wrote: >This is not a new rant for me; the AML-List archives are full of me >calling for inclusion of Mormon technical details in stories. If a >character has a religion, why can't it be Mormon? If a character has a >moral/social struggle, why can't we use some of our own concepts and >themes in depicting it? And every appearance of an identifiably Mormon >thing doesn't have to take center stage--those can be simple background >details in the lives of richly drawn characters. > >The Church ends up overpowering far too many stories because Mormon >writers seem to believe that if anything Mormon is depicted, it has to >take center stage. I disagree. By depicting the ordinary rituals of Mormon >life as exactly that--ordinary--we create more opportunities for people >outside our community to know and understand us at a deeper level than >they have before. > >I prefer to think of such depictions not as pearls before swine, but as a >candle set on a hilltop for all to see. And...perhaps...wonder more about. All I can say, Scott, is . . . wow. You've beautifully expressed my own viewpoint. And you've made me think again that maybe I really should try writing some fiction set in the LDS milieu. Doing so hasn't appealed to me enough to make me try it . . . now I wonder why, when I love the faith so much. Maybe I'm afraid I'll muck it up, or maybe I think it might reveal my own shortcomings as a Latter-day Saint. Now I'm starting to think, so what? Could that possibly surprise anybody? Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Rex Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing about Mormon Characters Date: 09 May 2001 21:34:51 -0600 > On Thu, 03 May 2001 15:09:26 -0700, LauraMaery (Gold) Post wrote: > > >You have a character who for some reason needs to pass by a temple. Or even > >enter one. Let's say it's a central plot point. You handle this plot point by: J. Proffit wrote: > 6. Treat the temple scene as any other that needs to be described only so > far as it touches the lives of your characters. If the doctrine involved in > temple building and worship are necessary to your plot then you go into it, > if they aren't then you stick with the physical descriptions needed to > convey the information people need. > This is by far the hardest option, but also the most satisfying to your > readers. LDS members will know more about the temple, but everyone will > know enough to appreciate the role the temple plays in your story. This is > the kind of thing that Chaim Potok does that is so hard to replicate. > Jacob Proffitt Whoa. Deep. Hold on. Barry Monroe (Angel of the Danube) had an experience at the end of the book where he writes about visiting the temple. I don't think Barry explained it very carefully, but he did tell about the voice of the spirit he heard there, the way the conduit to heaven opened, the confirmation of his feelings, etc. I have received one very positive comment, from a nonmember, about the scene and no negative comments. (I will brace myself and expect them after this post.) Barry wasn't explaining the temple so much as his feelings/spiritual development at that point in his life. Had Barry been of another faith, it could have been a cathedral, a mosque, a mountain, a forest, or a Greek temple. But the scene didn't make him peculiar or rub anybody wrong. > >4. Rewriting the whole story so that your character is, say, Jewish. Or > >Muslim. Or an Alien. Or an elf. Now there's a thought. Like Barry Monroe Surfer Dude could have gone to a different planet on his mission. Sweet. Just like we've gone to Russia. Next will be China, India, Mongolia. After that will be the other solar systems. Killer! Like, preach to Jedi Council. Have Yoda dude ex them on the doors. Righteous! Have C3PO as a companion (Elder Copperdude)--bummer. Of course his investigators would have never got it. Just like earth. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 10 May 2001 01:03:36 -0600 Travis Manning wrote: > Is Dutcher proselytizing in his movies? We discussed the effectiveness of > proselyting through this medium, and I believed, yes he is. I don't think he's proselyting, any more than I'm proselyting when I'm offered a drink at a party and turn it down. That could lead to the quesion of whether I'm a Mormon, which could lead into a discussion about the Gospel, which could eventually lead to a baptism. But I wouldn't call it proselyting. I was just being a Mormon and doing what Mormons do. Dutcher is just a Mormon telling stories that a Mormon would tell. If that leads to some baptisms, great. But I don't think it qualifies as proselyting, any more than the mere act of living the Gospel from day to day is proselyting. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 10 May 2001 01:12:44 -0600 Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > The complaint above does raise an interesting question, though. I > haven't seen _God's Army_ yet, so I have to ask--were *any* of the > missionaries portrayed as having an unshaken, fully developed faith? > Or were they all in the process of becoming? The character Richard Dutcher played had an unshaken, fully developed faith. He wasn't shown as being infallible, but his weaknesses were definitely not in his faith. The other main character was a new missionary who struggled with his faith, but came around in the end. A third missionary was troubled by anti-Mormon arguments, and ended up losing his faith. The only other missionary character whose faith was explored in the film was a black missionary who, after having a heated argument with a black couple, expressed his testimony to a fellow missionary, showing a pretty solid faith there. So the score? One well explored, fully developed faith. One well explored, weak faith that matured into a fully developed faith. One partially explored weak faith that died. One partially explored faith that held strong against substantial adversity. Three strong faiths vs. one lost faith among the missionaries. Now what's so terrible about that score? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG and GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (Review) Date: 10 May 2001 01:35:39 -0600 Ivan Angus Wolfe wrote: > It would have been easier to consider it as historical fiction if perhaps the > notes for each chapter had bee put in an appendix at the end of the book, so > that the rest of it could have flowed like a more typical formatted historicla > ficiton book - I can't say I read a lot of historical fiction, but most of what > I have read does put the notes in the back of the book, rather then interrupting > the narrative by putting them in between each chapter. I'm afraid you've all lost me on this. As I read the book, not one time did the notes at the end of the chapter jump up and leap into my eyes, forcing me to read them. If you prefer notes at the end of the book, why not just skip the notes as you read, then go back and read them after you've finished the book? Personally, I hate notes at the end of the book. Often, notes in the back of the book are notes that go unread. What a pain in the you-know-where to have to continually thumb into the back of the book to read them! But if I wait until I've finished the book, I don't remember what half of them refer to in the story anymore. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG and GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (Review) Date: 10 May 2001 09:16:48 -0600 To be honest, Darius and I have heard from both camps--people who felt the end-notes were a distraction that didn't really let them into the novel's action, and people who loved them just where they were. I've given some thought to putting the end-notes at the end of each book when the trilogy is done and we do a paperback version, but I don't need to think about that for awhile. I do want to comment on whether or not the series waffles indecisively between history or fiction. (Actually, Sam Brunson was not quite that accusing.) I think we're maybe inventing a new genre here. (Or is that unthinkably presumptuous?) We stick much closer to history than Lund does, for example, because the Steele family is a fabrication, while our characters really lived and we've researched their lives everywhere we could. I actually took Andrew Hall's comment that _One More River_ wasn't exactly a novel, more "a really interesting history book" as a compliment. So I am going to propose a new name for what we're doing. Darius and I are writing "liberated history." (That means history liberated by fictional license to make it INTERESTING. I have been so appalled by the seeming effort of some history textbook authors to make history boring.) So put our new label in your Funk and Wagenal. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG and GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (Review) Date: 10 May 2001 09:33:25 -0600 (MDT) D. Michael wrote: > I'm afraid you've all lost me on this. As I read the book, not one time > did the notes at the end of the chapter jump up and leap into my eyes, > forcing me to read them. However they do force you by there mere physical presence to not be able to go immediately into the next chapter - you have to travel some physical distance to bypass the end notes before hitting the next part of the narrative. If it had been a purely historical work, I would not have minded - but as historical fiction - it interrupted the narrative for me. But I may be a crazy lone voice. > If you prefer notes at the end of the book, why > not just skip the notes as you read, then go back and read them after > you've finished the book? I'm lazy - I like having all the notes in one place - if I had to go back and look at them, that would be too much work. > Personally, I hate notes at the end of the book. Often, notes in the > back of the book are notes that go unread. What a pain in the > you-know-where to have to continually thumb into the back of the book to > read them! I guess it boils down to different reading styles. I tend to read all the foot notes in any work - I just have different likes and dislikes as to where they are placed. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 10 May 2001 10:02:23 -0600 Barbara Hume wrote: > > All I can say, Scott, is . . . wow. You've beautifully expressed my own > viewpoint. And you've made me think again that maybe I really should try > writing some fiction set in the LDS milieu. Doing so hasn't appealed to me > enough to make me try it . . . now I wonder why, when I love the faith so > much. Maybe I'm afraid I'll muck it up, or maybe I think it might reveal > my own shortcomings as a Latter-day Saint. Now I'm starting to think, so > what? Could that possibly surprise anybody? Barbara, you can't muck it up, unless you write dishonestly. And as long as you don't forget that your main purpose is to entertain, and not proselytize, you should do all right. Go for it. Too many of us as Mormons seemed ashamed of our religion, or we fear that people will make fun of us or something, so we keep it to ourselves in the guise of sacredness. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 10 May 2001 10:16:42 -0700 I find it interesting that the two hardest, least admiring and satisfied = reviews I've found on Brigham City have come from the LDS-owned Deseret = News (albeit a non-LDS reviewer) and the LDS-affiliated, online Meridian = Magazine. Both were hard on the movie not for the bone-headed cultural = fear people have been discussing on AML-List (sacrament onstage, etc.) but = because of plot and other film technicalities. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Writing about Mormon Characters Date: 10 May 2001 11:10:23 -0600 At 09:34 PM 5/9/01 -0600, you wrote: >Have C3PO as a companion (Elder Copperdude)--bummer. Of course his >investigators would have never got it. Diann Thornley and I did captions to some stills from Star Wars that related to missions. One I remember of hers showed Leia comforting Luke right after Obi-Wan was lost. In the caption, she was saying, "Just because the sister missionaries have more baptisms is no reason to get all depressed." Another showed the Jawas carrying R2-D2, and the caption read, "We're gonna get this guy in the water no matter what!" I had one of Han scowling at C-3PO; my caption read, "You're fluent in six million forms of communication, and you don't know what 'flip' and 'fetch' mean?" The one of Diann's that really cracked me up wasn't about missions. It showed Aunt Beru looking seriously into the camera and saying, "Here on Tatooine, we know what dirt is! Tide gets it out!" barbara hume barbara@techvoice.com Regencies reign! - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 10 May 2001 12:56:14 -0600 D. Michael Martindale wrote: >Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > > > The complaint above does raise an interesting question, though. I > > haven't seen _God's Army_ yet, so I have to ask--were *any* of the > > missionaries portrayed as having an unshaken, fully developed faith? > > Or were they all in the process of becoming? [SNIP] >So the score? One well explored, fully developed faith. One well >explored, weak faith that matured into a fully developed faith. One >partially explored weak faith that died. One partially explored faith >that held strong against substantial adversity. Three strong faiths vs. >one lost faith among the missionaries. Now what's so terrible about that >score? Thank you for making my point. Most of the criticism I've heard from Mormons is about how the film shows only weak, silly boys with weak, silly faith. This didn't match up with other things I had heard about the film, so I had to ask the question. It underscores a problem I think we have in Mormon culture--no matter how many good and honest (and sometimes silly, sometimes serious) people we show in our fiction, if we *ever* show a broken faith or a compelling doubt, that element overwhelms the rest of the story for many Mormon viewers. We're afraid to ever be portrayed as less than perfect, or less than honest at all times, or less than the best possible representatives of Christ that we can be. We strive for perfection, and thus see any criticism of our progress as being a stumbling block, a mocking finger from the great and spacious building. And we all know that anyone who mocks our honest and pure effort to become perfect is acting in proxy for Satan, and their intent is to destroy. Sometimes true, but more often not. Laughing at our mistakes doesn't mean we're necessarily condoning our failure to reach perfection, or that we're claiming that the goal is unworthy; sometimes it just means that we recognize our own imperfection despite our honest effort, and that sometimes that leads us absurd behaviors. Similary, pointing out the struggles, errors, or problems that people face doesn't mean we're necessarily mocking the effort to be perfect; sometimes it means that we understand the struggle and want to help others of us know that they are not alone in their real desire or difficult struggle. Sometimes the finger is pointing at the precipice ahead and warning us, not pointing at us as individuals and mocking us. I had a really interesting conversation yesterday with a colleague who had been a missionary among the Chinese. He commented on their cultural inability to admit to error (dramatized by the recent spy plane incident) and their tendency to scrub history to show their own culture as always right and good and perfect. The need to save face often leads to behaviors that seem bizarre and sometimes even irrational. Sounds suspiciously like Mormon culture to me. We're chronically unwilling to admit to mistakes, either historically or as individuals. We compete with all the world to prove our moral superiority, but sometimes we come up a little short in the forgiveness and forbearance areas. We demand to be respected, but are grudging in returning that respect. We seem unwilling to believe that good and worthy people and ideas can come from outside our culture. And when anyone inside our culture admits to error, we feel deep betrayal and question the purity of their motives. My concern is that if we are unwilling to admit to error, we will be forever unable to repair those errors. Many people do mock us by pointing out our mistakes, but that doesn't mean every effort to warn against error is an attempt to mock. We need to learn that there is a difference. When Dutcher shows that young men thrust into missionary service are forced to address issues of faith directly, and sometimes struggle with that faith, he tells a general truism. We all struggle with our faith, or at least I believe we should. To portray the struggle honestly, we need to show that some don't come to successful resolution or we deny the partial faith of so many people who still struggle with some basic questions. As one who has been accused of being able to find the dark cloud around every silver lining, I find that I enjoy seeking the good in literature and film far more interesting than pointing out the bad. And I prefer stories that meet me on my own ground--the testing ground where some of the answers are hard, and some of our hopes are frustrated. But I also prefer stories where the characters have access to grace, because I believe that access to be a general truism of this world at this time. Whether the characters find that grace determines whether the story is a tragedy or not. So... I believe we should tell stories of how the world is, how we fear the world might be, and how we wish the world was. As Mormons I think we tend to focus on the world as we wish it was to the exclusion of the other forms. That leaves us with an unbalanced canon of work that only speaks to a part of who we are as people, and doesn't address the very real cases of failure. We need to tell all our stories--what we wish for, what we fear, and what we really believe. Different kinds of stories will reach into the lives of different people at different times. Stories that show struggles are just one more attempt by the author to depict real people. And try as we might to be otherwise, most Mormons are real people. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jennifer Vaughn Subject: RE: [AML] Martha Beck on Oprah Date: 10 May 2001 14:15:29 -0600 I saw her. It was on an episode about turning trials into positives. Martha Beck was on the ending segment of every Oprah show called "Remembering Your Spirit," and Martha talked about how her Down's son helped her to relearn everything her academic background taught her about the value of life. Oprah mentioned her book briefly when the segment ended. No mention of anything LDS. --Jennifer Breinholt -----Original Message----- Sent: 5/8/01 10:48 AM Anybody happen to catch Martha Beck on Oprah yesterday? (Monday, May 7) I didn't, but my wife told me she was featured in a pre-filmed segment, called something like "Remembering Your Spirituality." The irony of the title does not escape me. Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jennifer Vaughn Subject: [AML] Unlearning How to Write (was: At BYU-Hawaii, Card Tells Students How to Write) Date: 10 May 2001 14:18:20 -0600 ["Card] also offered advice about the "right" way to write, saying, "Pay no attention to what you have been told what good writing is." Finally, Card noted that many writers have to spend time trying to unlearn incorrect writing principles that they were taught in school.["] For you writers out there: what specifically have you had to unlearn? --Jennifer Breinholt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jennifer Vaughn Subject: [AML] Utah Book Clubs Date: 10 May 2001 14:45:56 -0600 Anybody know of any book clubs (the kind where you discuss them, not buy 13 of them for a penny and get a free tote bag with no obligation to buy again) in the Wasatch-front area (sorry to be so Utah-centric) which preferably meet during the day and/or focus on LDS lit? I am a new Stay-At-Home-Mom after years of being a professional and although I love my son dearly, my mind is turning to mush (I've contacted SAHM groups but they scrapbook and quilt and paint perfectly good pieces of wood to look like Precious Moments kids) and there's only so much Oprah I can take (please, somebody shoot that Dr. Phil). Whew. Thanks for letting me rant. Anyway, I am serious about the book club inquiry. --Jennifer Breinholt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 10 May 2001 14:58:33 -0600 maryjanejones@att.net wrote: > > > I thought that the list might be interested in what > non-LDS reviewers are saying currently about Brigham > City, specifically about the religious ordinances in the > film: Thank you, Mary Jane, for the quotes. Such great press should set aside once and for all the misconception some may have that there showing "divinity" on stage is intrinsically harming the church. As I've said before on this list, sometimes we are own worst enemies when it comes to being understood by the world. On the one hand, we wonder why the world sees us as weird, and on the other hand, we want to hide those aspects of our religion that have universal appeal from the world. Showing a sacrament meeting on film sends one clear message to the world--that we aren't all that different from them, despite what they may have read in the history books. They're likely to think: "I still don't get all that temple stuff the Mormons do, but their Sunday services look a lot like mine." Showing missionaries relaxing may not make a convert on the spot to a viewer of _God's Army_, but the next time that person sees the missionaries riding down the street, that person is less inclined to think of those young men as brain-washed automatons. Are we therefore in danger of losing our uniqueness, of becoming too much like the world, if we continue to paint such "normal" portraits of ourselves? Perhaps that's a question that can be considered in another thread. [MOD: Or in this one...] -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Jeff Needle Date: 10 May 2001 12:33:58 -0700 What a guy! You tempt me -- I may just do that if I have no other place to put them. At 12:00 PM 5/9/01 -0600, you wrote: >Glad to hear from you, Jeff. Once you get them boxed up, just ship >them to me. I'll even pick up the freight, nice guy that I am. > >Roy > > >>> Jeff Needle 05/09/01 10:23AM >>> >Hello, Roy. In fact, I know him quite well. A real pain in the >neck, but >we love him anyway . > >When my roommate passed away Saturday before last, I knew I had to >move >fairly quickly, so I've been working round the clock getting things >together. I'll be staying in the same apartment complex, just moving >to a >smaller apartment. It's the best thing. > >I'm boxing up my Mormon books right now. It looks like I'll have >about 75 >boxes of books, many of them duplicates and triplicates that I've >been >purchasing at DI. I'll have to find a local who is willing to spend >a day >with me sorting through them, with payment given in books. Anyone in >San >Diego interested? > >I appreciate the nice note. Thanks. > >At 05:13 PM 5/8/01 -0600, you wrote: > >Has anyone heard from Jeff. How is he doing? > > > >Roy Schmidt > > > > > > > > > >- > >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > > > > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG and GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (Review) Date: 10 May 2001 12:17:07 -0700 At 01:35 AM 5/10/01 -0600, you wrote: >I'm afraid you've all lost me on this. As I read the book, not one time >did the notes at the end of the chapter jump up and leap into my eyes, >forcing me to read them. If you prefer notes at the end of the book, why >not just skip the notes as you read, then go back and read them after >you've finished the book? > You echo my thoughts. I wasn't bothered by the notes at all. [Jeff Needle] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Stringer Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Book Clubs Date: 10 May 2001 15:48:07 -0600 >From: Jennifer Breinholt >Anybody know of any book clubs (the kind where you discuss them, not buy >13 of them for a penny and get a free tote bag with no obligation to buy again) >in the Wasatch-front area (sorry to be so Utah-centric) which preferably I know that The King's English in Salt Lake offers at least two book discussion groups, I am not certain what their schedules are however. The Salt Lake Tribune offers a book group, the Salt Lake Public Library does as well. I believe from time to time that Barnes & Noble does too, each of the different stores have their own book read and discussion. Our Relief Society does one as well, which surprisingly and rewardingly has been very good. We run it under the auspices of the Literacy Project. Two or three ladies in my neighborhood belong to a couple of different book groups outside the ones I listed above, so I know there are groups or clubs out there. I have to limit my participation to just one book club outside the ones I have joined on-line reading and discussing the works of various Victorian authors. We research I could offer a few more ideas, but that is what I have off the top of my head right now, hope it gives you some direction. Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG and GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (Review) Date: 10 May 2001 16:34:03 -0600 On Thu, 10 May 2001 01:35:39 -0600, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >Ivan Angus Wolfe wrote: > >> It would have been easier to consider it as historical fiction if = perhaps the >> notes for each chapter had bee put in an appendix at the end of the = book, so >> that the rest of it could have flowed like a more typical formatted = historicla >> ficiton book - I can't say I read a lot of historical fiction, but = most of what >> I have read does put the notes in the back of the book, rather then = interrupting >> the narrative by putting them in between each chapter. > >I'm afraid you've all lost me on this. As I read the book, not one time >did the notes at the end of the chapter jump up and leap into my eyes, >forcing me to read them. If you prefer notes at the end of the book, why >not just skip the notes as you read, then go back and read them after >you've finished the book? Apparently we're talking about different preferences. I also found the notes at the end of each chapter a distraction. If you prefer reading = the notes as they come up, why not thumb to the end of the book and read the relevant section after each chapter? Oh, wait: >Personally, I hate notes at the end of the book. Often, notes in the >back of the book are notes that go unread. What a pain in the >you-know-where to have to continually thumb into the back of the book to >read them! But if I wait until I've finished the book, I don't remember >what half of them refer to in the story anymore. Since the authors chose (thankfully) to include the notes at all, = choosing either format is going to disappoint some readers. I don't think either = way is intrinsically better, but I do have my preferences. Then Margaret wrote, in her reply: >I do want to comment on whether or not the >series waffles indecisively between history or fiction. (Actually, Sam = Brunson was >not quite that accusing.) I think we're maybe inventing a new genre = here. (Or is >that unthinkably presumptuous?) We stick much closer to history than = Lund does, for >example, because the Steele family is a fabrication, while our = characters really lived >and we've researched their lives everywhere we could. I actually took = Andrew Hall's >comment that _One More River_ wasn't exactly a novel, more "a really = interesting >history book" as a compliment. So I am going to propose a new name for = what we're >doing. Darius and I are writing "liberated history." (That means = history liberated >by fictional license to make it INTERESTING.) If I'm reading non-fiction, I'd rather have the chapter notes at the end = of the chapter for easier access. If I'm reading an historical novel, I = want the notes at the end so I can read the novel and then see what the = history was. _One More River to Cross_ is definitely a hybrid of some kind. I think it would have been far more satisfying if I'd been thinking of it = as history, rather than as a novel. In that respect, having the notes at = the end of each chapter kept me constantly aware that *this stuff really happened,* and I liked that. Liberated history. Huh. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 10 May 2001 16:31:10 -0600 On Thu, 10 May 2001 12:56:14 -0600 Scott and Marny Parkin writes: Brother Scott siad many things in this post (and others recently) that ring so true to me, ending with this: > We need to tell all our stories--what we wish for, what we fear, and > what we really believe. Different kinds of stories will reach into > the lives of different people at different times. Stories that show > struggles are just one more attempt by the author to depict real > people. And try as we might to be otherwise, most Mormons are real > people. I would just like to comment that Scott almost always says exactly what I'm thinking but in a very cogent and dignified manner that I don't think I'm often capable of. He seems to be chronicling my writer's journey. Thanks Scott. So glad you're here. J. Scott Bronson Member of Playwrights Circle "An Organization of Professionals" www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 10 May 2001 16:49:50 -0600 Scott Parkin said: > It underscores a problem I think we have in Mormon culture--no matter > how many good and honest (and sometimes silly, sometimes serious) > people we show in our fiction, if we *ever* show a broken faith or a > compelling doubt, that element overwhelms the rest of the story for > many Mormon viewers. > > We're afraid to ever be portrayed as less than perfect, or less than > honest at all times, or less than the best possible representatives > of Christ that we can be. The irony is that many people go through doubts and that to not portray those doubts is to be less than honest. As Harlow reminded us in his post summarizing Chieko Okazaki's AML meeting speech, "Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief is the opposite of faith. My questions are an important part of my faith." Great post Scott. Gae Lyn Henderson > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: [AML] Mormons as Flawed (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 10 May 2001 19:33:19 EDT Here's a thought to throw into the mix (my first contribution to this forum!): I feel that if we, as LDS artists, only represent ourselves as strong, faithful and sinless, we deny the Savior. If we refuse to acknowledge our flawed humanity we present ourselves as a people with no need for a Redeemer. Maybe the Evangelicals are right: maybe we really aren't Christians. Just a thought, Richard Dutcher [MOD: Good to have you here. If you've been lurking for a while, you'll know that both _Brigham City_ and _God's Army_ have been providing plenty of food for discussion on this list!] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] Diversity in Writing (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 10 May 2001 22:15:06 -0600 Sorry for this YALP (Yet Another Long Post). Everything I've had to say on this thread has turned into another interminable chapter in Scott's Compendium of Longwinded Diatribes (SCOLDs). But I refuse to censor myself (I'll make Jonathan do it), so here goes... [MOD: Sorry, I decline. All I did on this post was change the thread title.] Barbara Hume wrote: >And you've made me think again that maybe I really should try >writing some fiction set in the LDS milieu. Doing so hasn't >appealed to me enough to make me try it . . . now I wonder why, when >I love the faith so much. Maybe I'm afraid I'll muck it up, or >maybe I think it might reveal my own shortcomings as a Latter-day >Saint. Now I'm starting to think, so what? Could that possibly >surprise anybody? I think this has been the biggest limitation in Mormon storytelling--that we self-censor at such an early stage in our own creative process. I think most of us believe in telling our own stories, but I think two things tend to stop us--fear of violating orthodoxy and fear of exposing our private beliefs and finding that others think them to be trivial. The fact that we let these things intimidate us is an unfortunate side effect of our very own culture. Mormons and Orthodoxy ===================== I commented a little on this in my editorial in the current _Irreantum_. I think Mormons tend to seek orthodoxy. We want to do it right every time. We believe that there is a best or most correct way to do pretty much everything, and look to our leadership to give us cues as to what that way is. Unfortunately, in the arts it's nearly impossible to declare that one way of depicting a thing is *the* right one, or *the* most correct one. To some degree it's like trying to critique a testimony: "Well, the basic sentiment was honest enough, but frankly I thought the tears were forced and the pacing was a bit sluggish. This person really should hold off on sharing their testimony until they've refined their technique and improved their vocabulary. It was a bit squishy and sentimental, and I just don't care for that in a testimony." While church authorities have certainly offered guidelines about what's generally preferred in a testimony meeting (no travelogues, please...) I think we would be shocked if they suddenly came down with guidance about minimum levels of loquacity, approved word choices, or strictures on the number and size of tears appropriate to the genre. Yet we seem to want exactly that kind of guidance about literature and art. When Orson Scott Card bases a series of science fiction novels on certain broad plot elements from the Book of Mormon, we all turn toward Salt Lake City with inheld breaths to see if the authorities will either celebrate or condemn the works. When they reply with deafening silence, we're left unsure just how we should accept the novels and are forced to make our own choices (interesting concept, that...). Most of us retreat to a sheltered position and choose not to take a chance on something that hasn't been explicitly endorsed. I think this retreat to blandness is at least unfortunate, and possibly even unrighteous. But that's my own belief (Scott's Private Heresy Number 1C). I believe Salt Lake's silence on such matters to be intentional, and a clear message to us that Truth and Inspiration can be found in many, many different places, forms, and media. We have to decide for ourselves. If I recall, Chieko Okazaki spoke fairly directly to this in her closing address at the last AML Conference. While I can't remember the specific words, the broad message that I came away with was "Stop waiting for guidance from the Brethren on every little thing. They're quite busy dealing with the organizational and structural elements of a worldwide church and can't micromanage all the details. If you see a need, get your hiney up out of your chair and go address it--even if it involves reaching out to people whose lives are not as orthodox as you might prefer. Don't wait to be instructed in *all* things; seek answers through prayer *and* works." Again, I don't want to put words in Sister Okazaki's mouth, but that was the impression I got from her address. And I think that's exactly how we need to treat our artistic endeavors--don't wait for the explicit approval of the Brethren, just go out and do it. I don't think there's much orthodoxy to violate in telling our stories. If we are honest there can be no sin in telling the beliefs of our hearts--aka our testimonies. It is possible, however, for us to be honestly wrong about some of the facts of our religion and its doctrines. If our publicly expressed private religion carries too many heresies, I have no doubt that some church authority will attempt to teach us correct doctrine. But we also need to understand that there is an important difference between someone trying to correct perceived errors of understanding, and someone telling us that we're in violation of a critical, foundational doctrine of the church. (A small digression on private versus public religion... There are relatively few orthodox doctrines in our church, despite our sense to the contrary. An awful lot of the specific details and daily behaviors are left to us to work out for ourselves, and there can be quite a bit of diversity in how people fill in those details. For example, I have a good friend who believes that the Word of Wisdom teaches that good Mormons should be vegetarians--his reading of the "...not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or of famine..." line. To express his private religion, he chooses to be a strict vegetarian. He accepts that others believe differently and that there has been no statement by the GAs about what the Mormon public religion teaches. But to be true to himself, he has established that behavior in the name of his faith and under the moniker of the Word of Wisdom. His wife believes that she knows the instant that the spirits entered the bodies of each of her children, and believes that she was in spirit-to-spirit contact with them long before they were born. That's part of her private religion, even though I wonder how true it might be. In neither case does their private belief have any impact on how the public religion defines itself. And in neither case does the public religion require that they alter their private--and probably unorthodox--beliefs. I think this concern about expressing our private religion in story lies at the core of our fear that we might violate the orthodoxy of our public religion and make claims that will later be refuted by people of authority. Exposing our private belief may make us unsuited to the company of the saints. So we often choose to stay far away from stating the particulars that private religion. ...end of digression.) Fear of being trivial ===================== This is a fear that all of us have to deal with in pretty much everything we do, but I think our concerns about orthodoxy add an extra level of difficulty for many Mormons, especially when we talk about what it means to us as individuals to be spiritual beings. The fear that our private religion might not be good enough--as Barbara says, that she might muck it up--is hard for us. We put a great deal of power into our communal definition, and anything that might expose our beliefs as unorthodox tends to raise our fear that we might be found unworthy to be called Mormon, and that public expression of anything but the blandest, most correlated version of our religious thought could lead to censure--or worse yet, to misunderstanding and damaged testimonies. This is a difficult area for many of us. We want the explicit approval of our general leadership and will sometimes go to great lengths to seek it out. That desire to be judged worthy can control us to where we close off entire avenues of expression in favor of correlation. Most of us would rather be patted on the head than swatted with a rolled-up newspaper. As Mormons, we also believe in the power of written testimony to have impact on the lives of others. What if we write something that someone misunderstands, and it causes that person to reject revealed religion or pursue apostasy? No one wants to be responsible for that. So for fear of offending we remain silent, or choose to write to anyone but our own people. We decide not to tell many difficult, powerful stories because some might be offended by our characters, our settings, or our esthetic choices. Many who feel most poignantly are the first to censor their own words. They do it for the right reasons, but what marvellous testimonies have been muted for fear of offending? What powerful stories have been silenced before being uttered? There are many approaches to telling stories. I don't like all of them and don't practice most of them, but I believe that each has value to someone. And I have this horrible, sneaking suspicion that part of the reason we don't see more diversity from Mormon publishers is that they don't see many diverse stories. They can only publish what they get--simple supply-side market limits. If we don't like what we're seeing in the bookstores, we need to write the kinds of stories we'd like to read. Some on this list are already doing that. I think more of us should try. Scott Parkin (And thank you, Barbara for the kind words at the top of your post. I think we all hope that our thoughts make sense to other people.) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 11 May 2001 00:37:36 -0600 maryjanejones@att.net wrote: > I thought that the list might be interested in what > non-LDS reviewers are saying currently about Brigham > City, specifically about the religious ordinances in the > film: > > [several fascinating excerpts followed] Nope, detected no swinish pearl-trampling in these reviews. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: [AML] Losing Our Uniqueness? (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 10 May 2001 22:33:07 -0700 (PDT) --- Thom Duncan wrote: > Are we therefore in danger of losing our uniqueness, > of becoming too > much like the world, if we continue to paint such > "normal" portraits of > ourselves? Perhaps that's a question that can be > considered in another > thread. Excellent question, Thom. A similar problem has been bedeviling Romanian artists and thinkers for a century and an half. On the one hand, Romanians like to think of themselves as Europeans, on the other hand they have a strong interest in the East (Turkey, India, China) and Eastern ideas, and, most importantly, they are in a continual search for an indigenous 'essence,' something that uniquely defines them. The possibility of joining the EU has intensified the debate (and art and artists are dragged into it, or if long gone, dragged out and quoted by both sides). If Romania becomes part of the EU (and they will be a marginal, minority part) will they be swallowed up by the culture and economy of the larger countries? Will they be giving up part of their essential Romanian-ness? The question you ask is even more interesting because it has specifically to do with how Mormon artists represent their community. My question is: why are Mormon artists painting 'normal' portraits of their community? Is it to reach a broader, non-Mormon audience? Is it to show Mormons that they are not as peculiar as they may think? Is it to try and hit both audiences, soften them up so that they get used to the idea of Mormon art? ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 11 May 2001 00:40:41 -0600 Thom Duncan wrote: > His "line" also shows us what kind of subject matter is appropriate for > an LDS writer: basically, everything. The Bible has stories that deal > with virtually every subject you can conceive of, including incest, > rape, adultery, murder, nudity, and lust. The line of acceptability is > very broad, if one can refrain from superimposing one's own prejudices > over the line. Which brings us full circle back to Richard Dutcher, who started it all. His answer to what kind of stories we can tell: any kind, as long as its from a faithful point of view. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 11 May 2001 00:51:23 -0600 David Hansen wrote: > "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > This is only another variation of my favorite saying that I've coined: > > "If you don't think like me, you're evil." > > I think you're going to far here. There may be some that have this view, but the > majority of those I talk to think that it's fine for Dutcher to make these movies, just > don't expect me to watch them. They may think that these scenes are inappropriate, but > I don't believe (at least I hope) that they don't think I'm evil for liking them. Well, they're not getting quoted in the papers then (big surprise). > The bigger problem may be whether any filmmaker, artist, or musician outside the > institutional church can produce anything that does not cast the church or its members > in a 100% positive light will be seen by a significant number of its members as being > "bad" or "wrong." If Dutcher's statements that he is making films "about Mormons for > Mormons" is true, then I worry about him offending a significant portion of his target > audience and being unable to continue to support his ventures. (Course with the > relative success of God's Army and Brigham maybe I worry too much. :)) The world premier of _Brigham City_ at Jordan Commons theater complex in Sandy UT scheduled a single theater for the screening of the film. By the time the night came, they had expanded it to three theaters because of the huge response in ticket purchases. Remember, these were $20 a pop tickets, because part of the proceeds went to a charitable organization. I think the number of members who reject such storytelling are not as significant as we might think. Besides, they already have their films: they can go to the ward library and check out all the church-produced videos they want. It's the other audience's turn now. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 11 May 2001 01:56:47 -0600 Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > We're afraid to ever be portrayed as less than perfect, or less than > honest at all times, or less than the best possible representatives > of Christ that we can be. We strive for perfection, and thus see any > criticism of our progress as being a stumbling block, a mocking > finger from the great and spacious building. And we all know that > anyone who mocks our honest and pure effort to become perfect is > acting in proxy for Satan, and their intent is to destroy. Speaking of acting in proxy for Satan... "For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good. And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well--and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell." [2 Nephi 28:20-21] I can't help but wonder if showing only an idealized version of Mormons in literature, film, etc., isn't a form of saying "All is well in Zion." Would I be taking too much liberty with this scripture if I were to suggest that it obliges us to show the warts of Zion in our art? Otherwise we are helping Satan lead people carefully down to hell. The reason seems clear, and Scott pegged it: how can you heal warts when you pretend they don't exist? By the way, I started quoting one verse earlier than most people would have, because the second verse gives me the audacity to interpret the first verse in an even more outrageous fashion: that those who complain about art like Richard Dutcher's wart-showing films might be among those who are stirred up to anger against that which is good. There I go, inching closer and closer to the line where Jonathan might start bouncing me. [MOD: Okay so far. But I am honestly concerned that we aren't hearing from those who *are* genuinely bothered by these elements in Richard Dutcher's films, whether they see that as a personal reaction on their part or as something that ought not to have been done, artistically. Perhaps that's simply a reflection of the forum: we're all people who love literature, and so perhaps we're quite comfortable with things of this sort appearing in literary genres such as film. In any event, the effect has been to make our discussion rather one-sided. I would welcome a post from anyone who feels he or she can accurately report or represent the feelings of those who *did* feel some discomfort--either artistic or personal--at including the sacred Mormon elements in either _God's Army_ or _Brigham City_.] -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Jessica WOAHN and Erica GLENN Profile Date: 11 May 2001 08:41:55 -0600 Thank you so much, Harlow. This is wonderful. I appreciate so much any encourgement we can give to the young people, as they will be taking over. What is so satisfying is that they are all better than we were. Which includes complimenting all of you "younger" people who are so much better than my generation. I mean all of you smart Listers! Thanks. Marilyn - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG and GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (Review) Date: 11 May 2001 11:56:17 -0600 The problem can be simply solved with the use of footnotes. Endnotes are ALWAYS troublesome. Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kellene Adams Subject: [AML] Info About LDS Market Date: 10 May 2001 12:12:38 -0600 I recently was talking to a publisher and in the natural course of the conversation, I actually informally queried her with a book for LDS readers. The company is a small niche companyt that specializes in "feel-good" type of books (I was actually doing some ghostwriting and editing for her), and she was a bit interested in the idea. She asked me questions about the potential market, and I had no answers, other than the LDS population is over 11 million now, with at least 5 million of those here in the United States. She asked about LDS bookstores (I provided general information about Deseret Book and the other smaller chains and mentioned that there were independent bookstores as well). She wanted to know if I could get specific numbers about how many bookstores. I told her I thought there was an LDS Bookseller's Association, but I wasn't sure. (You can see I'm an incredible source of informataion!) Anyway, I'm off on a research project and don't even know how to begin to collect specific numbers. Does anyone have any ideas, suggestions, facts/figures, etc.? I'd welcome any help. . . thanks, Kellene - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Derek1966@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Info About LDS Market Date: 11 May 2001 14:28:27 EDT In a message dated 5/11/01 12:09:42 PM, kelleneadams@earthlink.net writes: << Does anyone have any ideas, suggestions, facts/figures, etc.? I'd welcome any help. . >> Kellene You might want to start by contacting Mary Ann Blackham, Executive Director of the LDSBA, at 801-446-0885 or LDSBA@LDSBA.com. I'm sure she could give you all the information you need about the association. John Perry - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Youth theater Date: 11 May 2001 12:41:40 -0600 At 08:41 AM 5/11/01 -0600, you wrote: >I appreciate so much any >encourgement we can give to the young people, as they will be taking over. I have a 13-year-old grandson who is quite the natural actor (the twerp can even weep convincingly whenever he wants to). How can I point him to local youth theater? Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] Publicity Article about AML Date: 11 May 2001 11:59:55 -0600 AML board member Gae Lyn Henderson graciously agreed to write an introductory article about the AML for the online Meridian Magazine. We're running it on AML-List as well for people who might not be fully aware of the scope of the AML, which sponsors and finances this AML-List forum. Please feel free to forward this article to other people and lists that might be interested. Passionate about Mormon Fiction, Drama, and Film? Discover the Association for Mormon Letters By Gae Lyn Henderson You may have noticed the proliferation of LDS novels in your favorite bookstore. Maybe you've wondered which books, movies, and plays are worth your time and money. Perhaps you want to know what the critics think. Let me tell you about an organization that provides answers for you both on the web and in print. In addition, this organization sponsors a variety of live events each year that are intellectually stimulating and inspiring for both readers and writers. The Association for Mormon Letters was founded in 1976 by a group of volunteers who wanted to promote high-quality writing by, for, and about Mormons. The non-profit group has met annually since that time to present awards recognizing superior work, hear discussions of scholarly criticism, and cultivate a community of people who care about values and how they are presented in literature. In recent years the organization has grown in membership, attendance at annual events, and particularly in participation on AML-List, its online discussion list. Meridian readers are invited to spend a few minutes exploring the AML website at www.xmission.com/~aml to get better acquainted with what this organization is about and what it has to offer. I've been an AML member for the past few years, and here are some of the great benefits I've experienced: Reviews: A tremendous resource for consumers and readers of Mormon literature is the AML review archive at www.xmission.com/~aml/reviews/index.html. Now, before you buy, you can read what critics and other readers are saying about a particular text. For example, D. Michael Martindale begins his review of Gerald Lund's Pillar of Light as follows: "I finally broke down and started reading "The Work and the Glory" by Lund. I had to, because my wife got me the first three books for Father's Day. I approached the task with fear and trembling. I have not been very thrilled with what little LDS literature I have read, and considering how popular this series is, I expected some hack-level stuff." As you can imagine, it is fun to find out what Martindale's opinion is after he actually reads the book! (To keep reading, see www.xmission.com/~aml/reviews/b/B199921.html.) Any and all readers are welcome to post reviews, formal or informal, to AML-List. AML-List: Anyone can subscribe to this moderated e-mail discussion list dedicated to Mormon literature--for easy instructions, click on www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm. This dynamic list has been operating since 1995 and is currently moderated by Jonathan Langford, who does an excellent job of keeping posts on topic and within friendly and respectful guidelines. As a subscriber you can expect to receive up to 30 posts a day, many of them very short, discussing current hot topics like Richard Dutcher's new movie Brigham City. The conversation ranges from how a busy mom with young children can fit writing into her daily schedule, to the Harry Potter series, to various philosophical issues, such as how evil should be portrayed in Mormon literature. Some of the list members are writers themselves, but many are primarily readers. If you want, you can just lurk (I did that for a long time) and see what these literary types have to say. But be warned-at some point you'll be tempted to enter into the discussion! Irreantum: The AML publishes on paper (of all things) a quarterly journal called Irreantum, which is edited by a team of professional writers and editors from all over the United States. If you want to read cutting-edge stories and poetry by Mormon authors, this is the place to find it. For example, the latest issue (Winter 2000-2001) featured a science fiction and fantasy theme and included an intriguing science-fiction story by Thom Duncan about a time traveler who wants to go back to the time of Joseph Smith. A poem that caught my attention in that issue was "Breadcrumbs" by Jane D. Brady, which gave me a personal glimpse into what the atonement means in one woman's life. Overall, the journal emphasizes a literary approach while respecting Mormon beliefs. Other features include Mormon literary news, reviews, essays, criticism, and interviews with the most popular figures in LDS literature and film. For example, the most recent issue featured a fascinating discussion with Dave Wolverton, a well-known LDS science fiction and fantasy novelist. A subscription is included in the $20 annual AML membership dues, or you can order an Irreantum-only subscription for just $12 a year (4 issues). To see a sample copy of the current issue of Irreantum, send a check for $4 to AML, P.O. Box 51364, Provo, UT 84605-1364. For more information about Irreantum, visit www.xmission.com/~aml/irreantum.htm. Writers' Conference: This annual event brings literary bigwigs together with beginner and wannabe writers to talk about the practical stuff of how things in the writing world get done. The conference is held every fall on a Saturday. Bring your notebook to jot down all the ideas and advice you'll be inundated with. Last year, Kenny Kemp offered a fact-filled session on self-publishing in which he explained exactly how he got his self-published book Dad Was A Carpenter accepted by a national publisher and signed a lucrative contract. Also last year, Dean Hughes, popular author of Deseret Book's popular Children of the Promise series, shared his philosophy and down-to-earth advice about how he has made writing a financially viable career. For up-to-date information on the forthcoming writers' conference, keep your eye on www.xmission.com/~aml. Annual Meeting: This is my favorite event of the year! The AML invites you to meet with us on March 2, 2002, at Westminster College in Salt Lake City to hear the scholars (and regular people too) debate and analyze the trends, successes, and controversies in Mormon literature. I love this annual meeting because, frankly, I love the people. (You too may enjoy the camaraderie of thoughtful, intelligent friends with artistic and aesthetic judgment!) During the elegant luncheon, you will witness the annual awards presented by the AML board for outstanding achievements in a range of genres, some of which include the novel, short fiction, poetry, children's literature, personal essay, criticism, and devotional literature. President Hinckley's remarkable book Standing for Something received the devotional award for the year 2000, and Richard Dutcher's God's Army won the award for film. For a list of the annual award-winners, go to humanities.byu.edu/MLDB/amlaward.htm. If I've piqued your interest and you think you would enjoy being a part of this community, let me extend a warm welcome. You can find me on AML-List every day. To join the AML, print and mail in the order form located at www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-info.htm or just send a check for $20 to AML, P.O. Box 51364, Provo, UT 84605-1364. To join the free AML-List e-mail discussion, simply send an e-mail message to majordomo@xmission.com that reads: subscribe aml-list. If you have any questions about anything related to the AML, you can reach a live body at irreantum2@cs.com. We hope to find you chatting online, attending our live events, and perusing the pages of Irreantum soon! - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Scott Parkin's Contributions. . . . Date: 11 May 2001 12:49:44 -0600 At 04:31 PM 5/10/01 -0600, you wrote: >I would just like to comment that Scott almost always says exactly what >I'm thinking but in a very cogent and dignified manner that I don't think >I'm often capable of. He seems to be chronicling my writer's journey. >Thanks Scott. So glad you're here. I agree. Scott's remarks are not only wonderfully written, but also indicative of clear and deep thought on the issues. I think sometimes that I'm just too mentally lazy to come up with the thoughts, much less express them so well. It's great to have someone else who can do the work for me! Barbara R. Hume, Editorial Empress barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Review of Eric Snider's Reviews Date: 11 May 2001 13:00:55 -0600 Looking through the Friday newspaper in order to avoid doing what I'm supposed to be doing, I took some pleasure from Eric Snider's summer movie preview. For example: "In Hollywood, summer begins not on June 21, but on Memorial Day weekend. . . . Summer has begun! Leave your brain at the door." I guess I enjoyed it so much because it reflects my own opinion. H'mm--maybe that's where I left my brain. . . . Reading the individual reviews, I once again felt sorry for Eric because of the trash he has to watch in order to write about it. I did take exception to his calling The Emperor's New Groove "worthless." It had value in my household, because for once we were all laughing at the same thing. Usually when the others are guffawing, I am scowling and muttering, "Disgusting! Absolutely disgusting!" When I am chortling, the others are exchanging glances that say, "What the heck is so funny? I don't get it!" But we all loved the luckless llama. (My favorite character was the villain's assistant.) barbara hume barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 11 May 2001 13:16:59 -0600 At 07:33 PM 5/10/01 -0400, you wrote: >I feel that if we, as LDS artists, only represent ourselves as strong, >faithful and sinless, we deny the Savior. If we refuse to acknowledge our >flawed humanity we present ourselves as a people with no need for a Redeemer. So true! "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Because of the Savior, the fact that we are flawed, despite our best efforts, need not lead us to despair. The missionaries who brought me the Gospel were certainly not perfect people. But when they talked to me about their religion, they lit up. They glowed. They had something I didn't have, and I wanted it. I'm grateful that they didn't think they had to wait until they were perfect before going on their missions--even though Elder Jeppeson refused to eat the broccoli I tried to feed him, and Elder Paul blushed furiously at almost everything I said. barbara hume barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BJ Rowley" Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG and GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (Review) Date: 11 May 2001 13:31:33 -0600 Melissa Proffitt wrote: > > If I'm reading non-fiction, I'd rather have the chapter notes at the end of > the chapter for easier access. If I'm reading an historical novel, I want > the notes at the end so I can read the novel and then see what the history > was. _One More River to Cross_ is definitely a hybrid of some kind. > > Melissa Proffitt Roy Schmidt wrote: > The problem can be simply solved with the use of footnotes. Endnotes > are ALWAYS troublesome. > > Roy Schmidt _One More River to Cross_ definitely IS a hybrid--a new genre. So maybe the solution to the problem needs to be a similar hybrid. Try this: - Endnotes (or, even better, footnotes) throughout the book (each chapter or bottom of page) for items that are, what I would call, "tidbit" in nature, i.e. short, explanatory statements, or brief background clarifications. - Appendix of Endnotes at the back of the book for items that are, what one poster called, a "replay of the history." Take page 57, for example. This is at the end of chapter five, which is titled _Nobody Knows, 'Cept Jesus_. The first Note reads: "The chapter title is from "Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen," a traditional Negro spiritual." Now that's an interesting little tidbit that I would enjoy seeing and reading as I'm immersed in the story. It should be a footnote right there on page 51, where the chapter starts. By the time I get to the end of the chapter, I've almost forgotten what the chapter title was. But, placed at the end of the book, in an Appendix, it would have become totally lost in the crowd and utterly meaningless, without doing a lot of serious, backwards page turning. Then look at the next Note on page 57, which starts: "Jane's birth date is rather elusive. It is reported as ... " This is a lengthy, seven paragraph (page and a half), in-depth look at the actual history. It does tend to interrupt the flow of the story, if I stop to read it as I go. Just putting a footnote or chapter endnote that says: "Jane's actual birth date: See Appendix such-and-such" would let me know where I can go to find the "actual history replay," if I'm interested. Otherwise ... just keep reading and keep enjoying. I could easily read things like that in the Appendix later on, and it would all be crystal. Just my humble thoughts ... BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 11 May 2001 13:34:16 -0600 RichardDutcher@aol.com wrote: > > Here's a thought to throw into the mix (my first contribution to this forum!): > > I feel that if we, as LDS artists, only represent ourselves as strong, > faithful and sinless, we deny the Savior. If we refuse to acknowledge our > flawed humanity we present ourselves as a people with no need for a Redeemer. Perhaps our seeming obsession with wanting to appear perfect is that we (imo) mistakenly assign perfection to moral perfection. I remember worrying about the verse in Matthew 5:48 that seemed to *command* us to be perfect. Thank the Lord for the insight I later learned from the LDS scriptures published in the 80's. A footnote on the word perfect showed that the word actually meant "complete," or "whole." Not a mention of moral perfection. Neal Maxwell and others have since addressed this passage in books, lessening some of the stress that we Mormons of a certain age grew up under. But the idea remains. So maybe it's because we think that admitting in the media that we are not all morally perfect -- that, as missionaries, we occasionally go nuts and take pictures of each other sitting on the pot (I know I did way back when) -- is denying that so-called commandment to be so. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Losing Our Uniqueness? (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 11 May 2001 13:49:03 -0600 William Morris wrote: > > My question is: why are Mormon artists painting > 'normal' portraits of their community? Is it to reach > a broader, non-Mormon audience? I do it because I want my fellow Mormons to know that the father's house has many mansions and that no one version of "Mormon" fits all. I've always been sensitive to attempts by any group to marginalize its own people, and I've seen that within the rank and file of the Church. The suspect classes are typically: divorced people (at least until they re-marry), missionaries who don't last the two years, artists, gays, the never married, etc. Those Mormons are my audience. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Diversity in Writing (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 11 May 2001 14:13:12 -0600 Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > I don't think there's much orthodoxy to violate in telling our > stories. If we are honest there can be no sin in telling the beliefs > of our hearts--aka our testimonies. What is Mormon orthodoxy in the first place? If you ask any two Mormons, you're likely to get two different answers. As I sit here, I can think of friends whose concepts of orthodoxy run the gamut. One friend is firmly convinced that only conservative Republicans can be good Mormons. Another friend can use scriptures to justify his belief in Libertarianism. Another friend sees the interdiction of R-rated movies as merely a suggestion, another friend believes that everything coming across the pulpit at Conference should be viewed as a commandment. My wife and I disagree on the core beliefs of Mormonism. None of my five children share identical views on orthodoxy. In the final analysis, orthodoxy may be nothing more than one person superimposing their own beliefs onto the Church, and then assuming that everyone else believes the same way. Mormon artists can only be sure of one thing: what *their* version of orthodoxy is. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Amy Chamberlain" Subject: Re: [AML] Diversity in Writing (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 11 May 2001 15:01:12 -0600 Thanks, Scott, for a great post. I especially loved the Okazaki quotes. Scott Parkin wrote: > Mormons and Orthodoxy > ===================== > Yet we seem to want exactly that kind of guidance about literature > and art. When Orson Scott Card bases a series of science fiction > novels on certain broad plot elements from the Book of Mormon, we all > turn toward Salt Lake City with inheld breaths to see if the > authorities will either celebrate or condemn the works. When they > reply with deafening silence, we're left unsure just how we should > accept the novels and are forced to make our own choices (interesting > concept, that...). Most of us retreat to a sheltered position and > choose not to take a chance on something that hasn't been explicitly > endorsed. My opinion is that some Mormons are more comfortable when they are hedged in with rules. Look at the Jews in Christ's day for an example of this kind of thinking. If you truly believe that you shouldn't take more than 49 (or whatever) steps on the Sabbath, then you don't really have to question your inner spirituality--your outer behavior stands in for that, and makes it unnecessary. When General Authorities don't give them these rules, this Mormon sub-group invents them for themselves, and they always make them really strict. I've seen this time and time again, and some of you probably have too. I see nothing inherently wrong with this kind of thinking, on one level. After all, if you know that you have a passion for chocolate, or if you know that reading certain kinds of literature disturbs you and gives you bad dreams, it's normal and logical to give yourself restrictions on indulging in these things. However, some people put these self-imposed restraints on the same level as truly religious proscriptions. You can see the difference when you offer some people Diet Coke, for example. Those who avoid it for health reasons usually say something like "No, thanks," in a cheery tone, and that is that. This sub-group I'm discussing (and I hope I'm not painting with too broad a brush here--I'm just trying to identify a cultural trend I've noticed) will decline in subdued, slightly shocked tones. The implication here is that offering a Diet Coke is on the same level as offering a vodka, and thus they feel slightly embarrassed for you. When people start proselytizing their own "private religions" (good phrase, Scott), that crosses the line of acceptable behavior, for me. > I think this retreat to blandness is at least unfortunate, and > possibly even unrighteous. But that's my own belief (Scott's Private > Heresy Number 1C). I find it disturbing, too. Any time people make decisions because it's "easier" or "safer," they stop striving for perfection. > I believe Salt Lake's silence on such matters to be intentional, and > a clear message to us that Truth and Inspiration can be found in > many, many different places, forms, and media. We have to decide for > ourselves. Yes! And isn't that wonderful? I think it is. It's liberating and inspires growth. I find it fascinating--and worrisome--that so many people find this kind of freedom to be troubling and uncomfortable. > For example, I have a good friend who believes that the Word of > Wisdom teaches that good Mormons should be vegetarians--his reading > of the "...not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or of > famine..." line. To express his private religion, he chooses to be a > strict vegetarian. He accepts that others believe differently and > that there has been no statement by the GAs about what the Mormon > public religion teaches. But to be true to himself, he has > established that behavior in the name of his faith and under the > moniker of the Word of Wisdom. And THAT'S when such "private religion" crosses the line and can become damaging, or at least irritating: when people try to impose their self-constructed rules on others. I had a roommate who told me that "since the Word of Wisdom restricts Coke and Pepsi, I just don't drink carbonated drinks at all. I figure that will get me that much closer to the celestial kingdom." She also kindly threw away a couple of cans of Dr. Pepper I had in the fridge once. Her personal opinion didn't bother me, although I found it erroneous and illogical--it was when she started to impose them on ME that we had some difficulties. > And in neither case does the public > religion require that they alter their private--and probably > unorthodox--beliefs. As long as they KEEP them private, they can believe whatever they want to. Within reason, of course. Amy - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJ Rowley Subject: Re: [AML] Info About LDS Market Date: 11 May 2001 15:35:56 -0600 Kellene Adams wrote: > I told her I thought there was an LDS > Bookseller's Association, but I wasn't sure. ... Does anyone have any > ideas, suggestions, facts/figures, etc.? I'd welcome any help. . . > > thanks, Kellene > > LDSBA has a website at: http://www.ldsba.com. You can get names and numbers of board members, but a list of all members is restricted to the members themselves. Here's an extract from their "Membership" page that might be helpful: About the Association We are a non-profit organization comprised of retail and wholesale businesses that deal primarily in LDS books and related products. Our current membership is in excess of 260 retailers and 230 wholesalers. The majority of our members are located in the United States and Canada, but we do extend into Europe, and Australia. During the month of August, we sponsor an annual convention and trade show, here in Salt Lake City. The convention is open to members only. During this time, wholesale members of the LDSBA exhibit their product(s) and many of them offer special convention prices for those attending. The convention is scheduled for three days and includes an evening of entertainment, seminars, a banquet, author/artist autographing, as well as the exhibits. Four times a year, we publish a newsletter, THE LDS BOOKSELLER, which is mailed to the membership. Included in this publication are articles featuring retail and wholesale business tips, President's message, new product review, etc. We also offer a products directory and a music directory at a minimal cost. If we can be of any further assistance, please feel free to contact us at the address or phone number listed below. Sincerely, - The LDSBA Board of Directors Another good Internet source is Deseret Books' site. (www.deseretbook.com) They have a tab for a listing of all their own stores, plus another tab that lists Other LDS Bookstores. It's never 100% accurate, but paints a pretty good picture. -BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 12 May 2001 00:51:02 -0600 Gae Lyn Henderson wrote: > As Harlow reminded us in his post > summarizing Chieko Okazaki's AML meeting speech, > > "Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief is the opposite of faith. > My questions are an important part of my faith." My lesson on faith: The opposite of faith is not doubt, it's fear. Faith is belief that motivates to action. Fear is an absence of faith and paralyzes us. But doubt is a stepping stone to faith. When we doubt, we investigate. When we investigate, we get answers. When we get answers, our faith grows. (Assuming what we are doubting is truth. If it is not truth, then our doubt is verified and we reject it.) -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merlyn J Clarke Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 12 May 2001 09:05:48 -0400 At 07:33 PM 5/10/01 EDT, you wrote: >Here's a thought to throw into the mix (my first contribution to this forum!): > >I feel that if we, as LDS artists, only represent ourselves as strong, >faithful and sinless, we deny the Savior. If we refuse to acknowledge our >flawed humanity we present ourselves as a people with no need for a Redeemer. > >Maybe the Evangelicals are right: maybe we really aren't Christians. > >Just a thought, > >Richard Dutcher >==================================== John L. Brooke's *The Refiner's Fire* makes precisely this point. He sees Mormonism as a derivitive of the perfectionist tradition. Presumably a discussion of these issues could well plunge us right into theological issues that could get miles away from the thrust of this list, and I'm not suggesting that we go there. But if we start from the premise that Mormonism is not a part of the mainstream Christian tradition, maybe on topic would be the issue of the extent to which Mormon literature either portrays or betrays that dimension of Mormonism that is decidedly non-Christian. For instance, Vardis Fisher in *The Children of God*, brilliantly portrays Brigham Young's belligerance against the Christians. Do we find much of this in current Mormon literature? Merlyn Clarke - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 12 May 2001 08:46:25 -0400 I think we do ourselves such a disservice by not talking about the difficult times, the questions we have, the struggles. While going through a particularly difficult time a few years ago, feeling like I was a total failure as a Mormon and as a Christian person, I finally broke down one day and dumped the whole thing in a friend's lap. To make a novel into a short story-over the weeks, in various situations, I discovered that I was not as alone in my struggles as I thought I was. But everyone's so caught up in the fa=E7ade of looking perfect.... I don't know how many times I've heard-mostly in RS-that your kids should never see you upset with or questioning a priesthood leader. (and other things along those lines) I think, and sometimes say, good heavens why not? I want my kids to see that I have problems. Let's face it, sometimes our dear, wonderful, trying-the-best-they can-mostly priesthood brethren really make a hash of things. And maybe sometimes they are doing all the right things and it just takes me awhile to get used to the idea. At any rate, I want my kids to see me upset sometimes, and wondering sometimes, and trying to work in less than ideal situation sometimes, and still faithful. Why would I want to give them a false Pollyannaish perspective of what life in the gospel is really like? So that when they have there first bump in the road of gospel tranquility they can spend agonizing nights wondering if they really have a testimony or if they just aren't worthy of the name Mormon? No thanks. I won't even go into the great Mormon myth perpetuated in every YW organization of the church-do this, this and this; stay morally clean; get married in the temple; and you will live happily ever after. We really need those honest stories. There are too many people who are leaving because they feel like they can never 'make it'. There are too many people who think that they are all alone in their struggles and doubts. Perhaps we can be the 'best possible representatives of Christ' if we stop acting like we don't really need Him because we are doing so well on our own. (But that's an entirely different topic.) [Tracie Laulusa] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 11 May 2001 16:51:16 -0600 D. Michael Martindale wrote: >I can't help but wonder if showing only an idealized version of Mormons >in literature, film, etc., isn't a form of saying "All is well in Zion." And yet I think one of the legitimate purposes of literature is to show the world as we wish it were. Utopias are a real part of developing a communal identity, and stories based around wishful thinking continue to be a part of the national canon. Which is part of what makes Nephi Anderson's _Added Upon_ so interesting to me; it's a pretty much straight-up, overt Mormon utopic novel that shows a highly correlated vision of what might have happened and what he hoped would happen during the millennium and beyond. Sure, some Mormons write idealized stories believing that they're depicting the world as it really is. But many write their little utopias in the hope that by showing the system working successfully, they show people a vision that they can then implement with their sweat and effort. They know very well that our society is not always ideal, but hope to create a shared vision of what's possible if people will only try. >Would I be taking too much liberty with this scripture if I were to >suggest that it obliges us to show the warts of Zion in our art? >Otherwise we are helping Satan lead people carefully down to hell. The >reason seems clear, and Scott pegged it: how can you heal warts when you >pretend they don't exist? Again, though, I don't think it obliges us to *emphasize* the warts such that they become the focal point of the canvas. I don't think it obliges us to *always* show the warts in every work. Honesty works in a infinite number of directions. If your vision requires warts, great; go to it with energy, vigor, and the blessings of your peers. I believe you can tell many great and powerful stories that will touch hearts and impress minds. But I don't believe warts are necessarily required to tell a good and worthy story, either. Many a powerful story shows little or no ill behavior on the part of people (or at least of specific people), and Mormon stories don't always require a test of faith as a prerequisite to establishing that story's Mormon-ness. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Diversity in Writing (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 11 May 2001 17:05:27 -0600 Amy Chamberlain wrote: >Thanks, Scott, for a great post. I especially loved the Okazaki quotes. A hasty reminder that those were *my* words paraphrasing Sister Okazaki, not direct quotes from her. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 12 May 2001 21:22:26 -0700 RichardDutcher writes: >I feel that if we, as LDS artists, only represent ourselves as strong, >faithful and sinless, we deny the Savior. Philosophically, I suppose, I take your point. The problem is, I know Latter-day Saints (not me, of course, but others) who are strong, faithful, and so close to sinless that I wonder what keeps them attached to earth. Their lives don't make for good theatre, but I have a tough time thinking the Savior believes their lives deny Him. >If we refuse to acknowledge our flawed humanity we present ourselves >as a people with no need for a Redeemer. By that logic, we should present ourselves only as murderous, hateful, abusive rats who REALLY need a Redeemer. Seriously, it's my opinion that we need a Redeemer not because we sin, but because we try to recover from sin. It's our desire NOT to sin that makes us good and Christian -- not our sinning. >Maybe the Evangelicals are right: maybe we really aren't Christians. Who is? BTW, we saw B.C. this weekend. It was terrific. And the decency of the townsfolk you depicted makes me believe you agree with me. --lauramaery --------- WHAT DO WE DO? We homeschool! Here's how: "Homeschool Your Child for Free." Order your copy today, from Amazon.com. --------- . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Unlearning How to Write (was: At BYU-Hawaii, Card Tells Date: 12 May 2001 10:19:20 -0600 Since I teach English and Creative Writing, and I am a writer, I'll answer a bit about "What I had to unlearn" and things I learned in H.S. that I DON'T make my students do! These are the things I teach my students. 1. Dialogue and sometimes even exposition don't need to always be complete sentences, no matter what you learned in middle school. 2. When writing fiction, you don't have to make it a linear process, from start of the story to the end of the story. I personally sometimes write the climax of a story before I write the conflicts which lead up to it. Others, I've written the intial incdent, climax, and conclusion, before I've written the exposition. 3. On a first draft, don't worry about spelling, punctuation, or other possible grammar errors. Write clearly, but mistakes can be fixed later. 4. We do not all think in the same way, therefore there is no one way to write. I have posters on my wall about "The Writing Process" but I tell the kids we don't always follow the: Pre-write, Rough Draft, Revise, Edit scenerio. 5. Outlining will look different for Non-fiction than it does for Fiction, and sometimes the final piece won't look anything like the original outline. 6. Poetry does NOT have to rhyme. (They come from middle school with the notion that if it doesn't rhyme, it's not poetry.) 7. The five paragraph essay is not a true writing form. 8. No matter what the State Mandated Writing tests try to make you believe, you cannot write a good persuasive essay in isoloation. You must have research data, care passionately about the topic , and have a real audience to write any type of good persuasion. 9. You cannot learn to spell or memorize vocabulary words in isolation and retain them beyond the test. They must have meaning to you personally and become a part of your own lexicon. 10. Reading a good story should not be followed with "Answer the questions at the end of the story." 11. Throw away the list of words your teacher suggested you use in place of "said." 12. Reading can be fun. [LuAnn Staheli] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Book Clubs Date: 12 May 2001 10:20:57 -0600 Jennifer, I don't know any book clubs with your criteria, but please, don't shoot Dr. Phil. I like him and his books! Lu Ann - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Diversity in Writing (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 12 May 2001 13:17:52 -0300 >To talk about this subject I wrote an specific e-mail : "Influence of mormon Literature in the world..." Read it too ... Can you describe the main technical differences between mormon literature and others? Why do you think most of mormon writers write fiction? Is it possible to write about real world without talking about drugs, sex, prostituiton, murder, etc...? ONLY TO THINK... Renato Rigo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Diann T Read Subject: [AML] Re: Unlearning How to Write Date: 13 May 2001 09:10:28 -0500 On Thu, 10 May 2001 14:18:20 -0600 Jennifer Vaughn writes: > > ["Card] also offered advice about the "right" way to write, saying, > "Pay no attention to what you have been told what good writing is." > Finally, Card noted that many writers have to spend time trying to > unlearn incorrect writing principles that they were taught in > school.["] > For you writers out there: what specifically have you had to > unlearn? I was always told "Keep your fingers on the pulse of the market. Find out what the market wants." I never was comfortable with that; it always just seemed too much like (pardon the term) literary prostitution: writing with the hope of making a lot of money rather than for the love of words. Some people can do that, do it very well, and be comfortable with it; I can't. Writing specifically to please and/or impress other people takes all the fun out of it--and, bottom line, I write for fun. I have plenty of stories that I want to tell, and whether or not they're what "the market" is seeking no longer matters to me. I probably won't make much money, but I'm saying what I want to say and I'm enjoying doing it. Diann T. Read - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: [AML] Farewell Douglas Adams Date: 13 May 2001 19:00:08 -0700 Douglas Adams, author of "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" and other works, has died at the age of 49, apparently of a heart attack. He'll be missed. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: [AML] Help Needed in San Diego Date: 11 May 2001 18:05:51 -0700 I don't know if the person I'm looking for is on any of these lists, but you live in San Diego North County, and you purchased a load of books from me a few years ago. Well, I'm ready for another purge, and I need to get in touch with you. If I don't find this person, is there anyone in the San Diego area interested in the job? Here's how it works -- you come here and help me sort through about 50 boxes of books to see what dupes I have. I then give you all the dupes (if you want them), and some other stuff that may be of interest to you that I don't plan on keeping. Any takers? (Note: there is simply no way I can ship anything.) Thanks. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Bestsellers: Behind the Smile Back Again: Kent Larsen Date: 12 May 2001 11:14:19 -0500 A4 [From Mormon-News] Bestsellers: Behind the Smile Back Again NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- Marie Osmond's book about her struggle with postpartum depression, "Behind the Smile" is on the bestseller lists for a second week, but is on a different list this time, the Barnes & Noble Top 100. Last week's list showed an initial surge of sales at Amazon.com, and it could be that the book will remain on the bestseller lists for a while, given Osmond's appearance on Oprah and the article about the book that appeared in the women's magazine Good Houskeeping. On the LDS bestseller list, again few titles changed, the only real exception being "The Possible Dream," a cassette of Sister Mary Ellen Smoot's BYU Women's Conference address, which joined the list at #13. In addition, we have started recognizing ties, where the title's position is not significantly different than the title above or below it on the list. Ties are recognized by an asterix. The current titles on US National bestseller lists are: Nothing Like it in the World, by Stephen Ambrose A history of the building of the transcontinental railroad in the US. Ambrose, a highly regarded historian, details the involvement of Mormons in building crucial portions of the road, including the driving of the "golden spike" in the heart of Mormon territory. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 28 27 Barnes & Noble (May 10) Top 100 34 30 New York Times (May 13) Non-Fiction Hardcover The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen R. Covey This ten-year-old personal management classic is still selling strongly. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 11 15 Amazon.com (May 10) Non-Fiction Paperback 69 63 Barnes & Noble Top (May 10) Top 100 120 104 USA Today (May 10) 4 5 Wall Street Journal (May 4) Business Behind the Smile: My Journey Out of Postpartum Depression, by Marie Osmond with Marcia Wilkie and Judith Moore Osmond's tale of how she survived and learned to deal with postpartum depression. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 88 - Barnes & Noble Top (May 10) Top 100 Bestsellers in LDS Bookstores: This Last Title 1 1 Standing for Something: 10 Neglected Virtues That Will Heal Our Hearts and Homes by Gordon B. Hinckley Three Rivers Pr 2 2 The First 100 Temples by Chad S. Hawkins Deseret Book 3 4 Expressions of Faith by Greg Olsen Deseret Book 4 3 The Promise of Discipleship by Neal A. Maxwell Deseret Book 5 5 Walking in the Light of the Lord by President Gordon B. Hinckley Deseret Book 6 6 Legacy of Love by Lucile Johnson and Joann Jolley Covenant Communications 7 7 Women of Destiny (CD) Deseret Book 8* 9 Mothers of the Prophets (Revised Edition) by Leonard J. Arrington and Susan Arrington Madsen Deseret Book 8* 8 Latter-Day History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Edited by Brian Kelley and Petrea Kelley Covenant Communications 10* 11 Arise and Shine Forth: Talks from the 2000 Women's Conference Deseret Book 10* 10 The Message by Lance Richardson American Family Publishing/Origin Book Sales 12* 12 The Book of Mormon for Latter-day Saint Families by Thomas R. Valletta Deseret Book 12* - The Possible Dream (BYU Women's Conference Talk on Cassette) by Smoot, Mary Ellen Deseret Book 14 14 Echoes by Nancy Campbell Allen Covenant Communications 15* 13 The Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley by Gordon B. Hinckley Deseret Book 15* 15 I'll Find You: A Novel of Suspense by Clair Poulson Covenant Communications * Indicates tie LDS Books rankings reflect sales rankings at approximately 50 LDS bookstores, generally in the Western United States. Mormon News is actively seeking to expand both the quality of these rankings and the number of stores participating. Bookstores and other vendors of LDS books are urged to contact Mormon News at editor@mormonstoday.com to participate. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] Influence of Mormon Literature in the World Date: 12 May 2001 13:09:33 -0300 We, mormons, are 6 million people in the world (This information is from the end of 2000)and the whole Earth has 6 billion people. We are 0,1 % in the world. It means we have a lot to do. In the case of mormon literature I think the market will accept it gradually according to the increase of the Church in the world. The amount of criticism that Mormon Literature receives all over the journals and magazines is similar to the criticism that the members of the church suffer in the world. Today to write a best seller we have to follow the receipt: murder + sex + money + cars + more sex + protituiton + drugs + other things of the enemy. Mormon Literature will have more success in the future when the readers have left the ordinary world and have entered in the right way...when the Church gets more influence, more members.... ONLY MY OWN OPINION... Renato Rigo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] Technical Differences in Arts Date: 12 May 2001 13:31:59 -0300 Most of e-mails I=B4ve received this week have some central polemic: Mormon Literature x Non Mormon Literature; Mormon thought x non-Mormon thought; Mormon Art x Non Mormon Art. I would Like to have a discussion about these main differences (technical differences) between Mormon and Non-Mormon in Arts, of course. Let=B4s understand the both sides Renato Rigo __________________________________________________________________________ Acesso pelo menor pre=E7o do mercado! R$ 14,90 nos 3 primeiros meses! ASSINE AGORA! http://www.bol.com.br/acessobol/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Youth theater Date: 13 May 2001 17:28:47 -0600 Barbara Hume wrote: > I have a 13-year-old grandson who is quite the natural actor (the twerp can > even weep convincingly whenever he wants to). How can I point him to local > youth theater? Where does he live? We are fortunate to have a number of excellent youth theater programs in Utah county. If he lives in the south end of the valley, the Villa Youtheatre would be the one to seek out. Maybe even if he lives in north county. This program is worth traveling for! The Scera also offers an excellent youth theater program. Both Pleasant Grove and American Fork have solid and active programs as well. Once your grandson turns 14, he could also participate in the BYU-sponsored Youth Theater summer workshop. Best of luck to him! Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Double Posts? Date: 14 May 2001 15:01:13 -0500 Folks, I've had one comment from someone who is receiving double copies of all AML-List posts today. Is anyone else experiencing this? Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 14 May 2001 11:49:25 -0500 RichardDutcher@aol.com wrote: > Here's a thought to throw into the mix (my first contribution to this forum!): > > I feel that if we, as LDS artists, only represent ourselves as strong, > faithful and sinless, we deny the Savior. If we refuse to acknowledge our > flawed humanity we present ourselves as a people with no need for a Redeemer. > > Maybe the Evangelicals are right: maybe we really aren't Christians. > > Just a thought, > > Richard Dutcher > I concur. I have frequently been accosted by "Christians" who are offended by what they discern to be an arrogance portrayed by members of the Church. I believe one can produce work that will show the real world which is people struggling no matter what degree of understanding they may have. i.e. Who has not heard or known someone who "had it made" who stumbled and then through hard work and self-discipline and the power of the atonement got back on stream? Sit in a few disciplinary situations and learn the joy that can be there for such individuals when they get their blessings restored and further what a powerful impact they have afterwards. IMHO there is nothing there that cannot be portrayed with good taste. I hate to count the loss of individuals who thought there was no help because they did not truly understood the power of the plan of redemption. Richard, B.C. has done well here in Texas! Great job! Craig Huls http://happyendingpress.com mailto:dcraigh@onramp.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: RE: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 14 May 2001 10:53:34 -0600 >people who think that they are all alone in their struggles and doubts. >Perhaps we can be the 'best possible representatives of Christ' if we stop >acting like we don't really need Him because we are doing so well on our >own. (But that's an entirely different topic.) Makes me think of Stephen Robinson's (is that right?) parable of the bicycle in his book Believing Christ. BTW, I heard a Protestant minister on the radio this morning speaking on the theme of "Faith without works is dead." They don't all think that once you accept Christ, you're saved with no need for effort on your part. He said that a man might say, "Without Him, I can't," but he needs to realize about God that "without me, He won't." Interesting. This guy also told a pretty good joke that I'll pass along. A woman whose husband had just died alled the local paper to find out the cost of an obituary notice. The editor said it was $25 a line. So she dictated for the obit, "Gus is dead." He told her that for her $25 bucks she might as well use the whole line--she could have six words instead of just three. So she said, "Gus is dead. Toyota for sale." barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tyler Moulton" Subject: Re: [AML] Diversity in Writing (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 14 May 2001 10:54:06 -0600 [The loquacious and perspicacious] Scott Parkin wrote: <<>> Speaking from the perspective of the largest independent LDS publisher, = Scott is right on the mark (as usual). Of course we have natural limits to = what we can publish--defined by the intended audience for LDS books--but = the greater limitation lies in what we have to choose from. When we turn down a good manuscript because of marketing issues, it's a = reflection of (1) what our audience is interested in reading and (2) what = they're willing to accept. In both cases, the categories appear to be = expanding and we're trying to encourage that.=20 But a publisher has to remain within an easy step of the intended = audience. Some writers are several steps ahead (or to the side)--which may = be great for them personally, but a bad prospect for publishing their = books. I sympathize with much of what I hear about "educating the = audience," but it can only happen incrementally. Individuals may be able = to take big, bold steps forward when challenged and pushed, but institution= s--or in this case markets--tend to stumble or even retreat. We've had a number of books lately (with more forthcoming) that have = challenged the genre barriers of LDS fiction. That thrills us, and the = future looks bright as we intend to continue pushing outward in a variety = of directions. Within the parameters that define who we are as a mainstream= LDS publisher, we will produce as many varieties of well-written LDS = fiction as we can possibly handle. Like Scott says, I would love to hear from more of you about what you'd = like to see in LDS bookstores, and what you're interested in doing about = it. Barbara, and any of you other good writers out there who are toying = with ideas, let me know if and when you'd like to get together and talk. = (But e-mail me personally; we don't want to inundate AML with our = chatter.) Tyler Moulton (Acquisitions Editor for Covenant Communications) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 14 May 2001 10:59:17 -0600 But if we start from the premise that >Mormonism is not a part of the mainstream Christian tradition, maybe on >topic would be the issue of the extent to which Mormon literature either >portrays or betrays that dimension of Mormonism that is decidedly >non-Christian. I think it's that we're non-mainstream, not non-Christian. barbara hume Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 14 May 2001 11:25:33 -0600 Yea! Richard Dutcher is here! I hope he has seen all the wonderful scuttlebutt about his films! We are all absolutely impressed. He has made his first contribution! This is a red letter day, so I wanted to be in on it. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Diversity in Writing Date: 14 May 2001 11:35:30 -0600 I have to tell you that I was reading quickly when Scott mentioned the fellow who had decided to be a vegetarian and I certainly did skip the context about the GAs and thought to myself, well, yes, vegetarians certainly do have GAs. Well, we all have it, don't we? In several different contexts. I had a nice laugh. (Grin) Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 14 May 2001 11:56:40 -0600 Mormons Flawed: I have to leave the post for a month. I'll be back June 14. But before I go I must make a few more of my buzzy little flawed statements that Jonathan doesn't really like. (Thanks for putting up with me, Jonathan. The one about the GAs should do it for me for a year!) However, may I just say I finished reading Marie Osmond's BEHIND THE SMILE, and in my estimation, she is right on. And it's a good Mormon-flawed example! She uncovers some great truths! She's NOT perfect, and says it. I like the humor. I was impressed. (Wow, what she has to deal with.) She also left some holes that would be interesting if filled in (the particulars about the separation, etc.). However, I didn't need that for the book. All in all, I have to say she's the PRACTICING ACTUAL Mormon (as opposed to the born but anti-Mormon) writer that makes me smile. I LOVE it. She prays, she goes to church, she talks about her baby's blessing. I did get weary when she reiterated everything at the end--it was a little repeaty and preachy. But when she gives the specific incidents of her family, she is masterful! So interesting! The nuts, the bolts. The metaphors are great! The introspection! Loved it! (Marcia Wilkie gets a lot of the credit too, though I sense Marie's voice--it comes through!) Marilyn Brown [MOD: Not true, Marilyn! I *like* your posts!] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 14 May 2001 12:27:35 -0600 On Sat, May 12, 2001 at 09:22:26PM -0700, LauraMaery (Gold) Post wrote: > Philosophically, I suppose, I take your point. The problem is, I know > Latter-day Saints (not me, of course, but others) who are strong, faithful, > and so close to sinless that I wonder what keeps them attached to earth. > Their lives don't make for good theatre, but I have a tough time thinking > the Savior believes their lives deny Him. But doesn't any like make good theater if you tell the right story? For example, take the only sinless man ever to have live on this planet: his story remains the all-time, worldwide bestseller. The amount of sin or lack thereof doesn't make the story. How did these people arrive at their current state of inner peace and contentment? Do you think they have always had such a complacent deportment? In my experience, those who display such a discernible Christlike character usually got there through trials of faith and hardship. Let's take as an example the everyday retired widow, Martha, who works at the temple three days each week. At this point in her life, she has attained a state of near guilelessness and charity that all who associate with her feel they have spent time with a true and loving friend. But has Martha always had this level of spirituality? What about the time that she felt a steep rivalry with Sister Phelps? Everyone always seemed to praise Sister Phelps cooking and to ignore Martha's contribution. Martha needed something that would make her contribution so outstanding that she would get noticed. How could she make her dessert assignment so mouth-watering that no one would notice Sister Phelps famous lemon cake. Martha dug through her vast collection of recipes and found one she had inherited from her mother. Aunt Edith's chocolate cake. Aunt Edith's cake won the blue ribbon at the Kentucky state fair three years in a row, and it had a secret ingredient: brandy. Martha made the cake and won the acclaim of her fellow sisters. Martha basked in her glory -- until the sisters started asking for the recipe. Martha could only think, _Pride cometh before the fall._ With my bit of fiction, I have tried to demonstrate that fiction should describe the journey and not the destination. It took Martha sixty-two years of experience to develop her present character. We can all admire her warm glowing nature, but how did she get there? Why not ask your favorite near-sinless people to tell you about their lives? Did they always have enough money? Did they have any problems with their children? Do they consider themselves sinless, or even near so? Richard didn't say that depicting a sinless person denies Christ, but depicting a modern Mormon community without the blemishes denies the need for a savior. We all clearly need the savior. If it weren't for the atonement, then even those who now appear sinless would collapse under the weight of their unforgiven sins. And isn't life's greatest drama, the depiction of someone reaching the crossroads and choosing the path that leads to Christ? -- Terry Jeffress | I love being a writer. What I can't stand | is the paperwork. -- Peter de Vries AML Webmaster and | AML-List Review Archivist | - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 14 May 2001 13:27:56 -0600 On Sat, 12 May 2001 09:05:48 -0400, Merlyn J Clarke wrote: > John L. Brooke's *The Refiner's Fire* makes precisely this point. He = sees >Mormonism as a derivitive of the perfectionist tradition. Presumably a >discussion of these issues could well plunge us right into theological >issues that could get miles away from the thrust of this list, and I'm = not >suggesting that we go there. But if we start from the premise that >Mormonism is not a part of the mainstream Christian tradition, maybe on >topic would be the issue of the extent to which Mormon literature either >portrays or betrays that dimension of Mormonism that is decidedly >non-Christian. For instance, Vardis Fisher in *The Children of God*, >brilliantly portrays Brigham Young's belligerance against the = Christians. >Do we find much of this in current Mormon literature? That's actually a good point. We are quick to make claim as Christians, = but I think that is mostly because the origin or root of the word is "those = who believe in Christ". I think the real problem here is that the word "Christian" has been warped recently to mean specifically protestant traditions. I've found it interesting to notice how Catholics have been recently excluded from the "Christian" groupings. Trying to fit = Mormonism under the protestant tradition just isn't going to work. We *aren't* descended from the protestant tradition and thus don't fit comfortably = under the current usage of the moniker "Christian". Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Katie Parker Subject: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 11 May 2001 23:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Weyland, Jack. _Ashley and Jen_. Bookcraft, 2000.=20 Hardcover, 287 pp. $16.95. [Reviewed by Katie Parker] Target Audience: Youth, mostly girls Summary: The summer before their senior year in high school, Ashley and Jen tangle at girls=92 camp and are sentenced to spend a night together by themselves. Ashley=92s your basic perfect Mormon girl who doesn=92t even know how to fight, and Jen=92s a rough type who hangs out with the wrong crowd, drinks, smokes, all that stuff.=20 Through the course of their time together, they become best friends. Jen gets Ashley to loosen up a little and play some camp pranks, and Ashley convinces Jen to start coming back to church. After camp they make friends with Nathan, a social misfit in their ward who turns out to be a lot of fun. The three of them do crazy fun things together like starting an Italian soccer team. Their coach is Nathan posing as a foreign exchange student who yells Italian phrases from a tourist guide like =93Where can I find some tent pegs?=94 This much of it is the sort of thing you=92ll find in many Weyland books. It=92s enjoyable enough, if you like his writing, but it=92s nothing he hasn=92t done before. To me it seems like this story appears in some form or another in every book that he writes. =20 The aspect of the book that really grabbed me is Ashley=92s struggle with bulimia. Yes, it=92s another stock thing of Weyland=92s to address some big issue in many of his books, and this one is the bulimia book.=20 Still, I was impressed with the way he handles it. When Jen and Ashley first spend time together, Jen notices Ashley throwing up sometimes after meals. No one else seems to notice or care (Ashley hides it carefully), but Jen=92s been around and she picks up on it. At this point, Ashley hasn=92t been doing this long, and with Jen=92s and Nathan=92s friendships she=92s able to control herself. But after a few months, when Jen and Nathan pair off and leave Ashley alone, things go downhill for her. It=92s even worse when she goes to Ricks in the fall, where she makes a new start alone.=20 Her obsessions with food and with having a =93perfect=94 body start to take center stage, and grows wildly out of control. As her condition progresses, she lies and manipulates people more and more to cover up her physical ailments as well as her binging and purging. Weyland shows all this vividly throughout much of the book. There=92s a scene where a nice guy has come to see Ashley, but all she can think of is getting rid of him so that she can go eat the brownies in her trunk.=20 After he continues to call her (which she largely fails to even notice), she finally lets him think that she=92s waiting for a missionary so he=92ll leave her alone. Prior to the brownie scene, as the people around her go through church services and a normal Sunday, she elaborately plots how she can avoid eating until she can have her brownies, without her roommates questioning her. There=92s another scene where she=92s supposed to drive from Idaho to Salt Lake for the funeral of Nathan=92s sister, but ends up in a hotel room with a bag of pancake mix and a bottle of maple syrup. She spends the next few days making herself pancakes, throwing them up, and making some more. She explains to her parents and friends that she was caught in a snowstorm and had to wait it out at the hotel. Throughout all of this, we get to read Ashley=92s internal conversations with herself, showing her complete confusion and growing feelings of helplessness. =20 When Ashley visits home, Jen becomes concerned about Ashley=92s weight and her passing out when they try to play soccer again with Nathan. She tells Ashley=92s parents about her throwing up after meals, and Ashley promises she=92ll do better. Her parents are satisfied with this at first, but eventually realize that Ashley has no intention of trying to change and that her condition is only becoming worse. They get her into treatment, and, while it=92s not an easy road back, she does (of course) make it. Critique: As I=92ve previously stated, I felt that Weyland handled the =93bulimia scenes=94 quite well. I had no idea how complex and uncontrollable such a condition could really become, but I found this depiction to be fascinating and eye-opening. And I felt like the problems were a lot more three-dimensional than many of us often expect from Weyland. =20 He also did reasonably well at establishing reasons for Ashley developing her disorder, such as showing how her parents expected perfection from her and stifled her personality, and how she felt a need to be able to control things in her life. These, of course, are not offered as the hard-and-fast problems that led her to it, but they are still provided in the background. The problem is that these terrible parents of hers are able to change into good ones very quickly when needed for their daughter=92s recovery.=20 The scenes where her parents apologize to her and try to help mend their problems are, really, fairly realistic. But once that=92s taken care of, her parents are wonderful. This is believable to a point, but sooner or later I would expect them to revert to old ways, especially under the stress created by Ashley not yet recovering. But that never happens. I didn=92t find the character of Jen to be completely believable, either. Jen is initially shown as pretty wicked, but we soon see that she=92s mostly just mischievous, and suddenly she wants to repent and do better. For the most part, she doesn=92t look back.=20 This almost fades into the background against Ashley=92s story, but it=92s still enough to bug me. And why would a worldly girl like her want to have anything to do with a geek like Nathan? As long as you don=92t wonder things like this, you can overlook this and enjoy the rest of the book. But I wish there weren=92t always, predictably, so much to overlook. Another thing that bothered me is a stylistic trait of Weyland=92s. When introducing a character, he occasionally jumps in and gives his or her life story in a few paragraphs. Another technique that he uses is to completely switch to the other person=92s point of view, so that we can see their true intentions.=20 Neither one of these really has to be a problem, but both of them bother me. I=92d like for him to use more subtle means to convey the necessary information, and to leave out the information that isn=92t necessary. But there are many things that Weyland does well. He uses humor quite convincingly, and places Ashley in a variety of situations playing against a variety of characters. I apologize for this lengthy review, but there=92s a lot in this book that is worth discussing, and Jack Weyland always seems to be a hot topic. I honestly have a lot more respect for him and his work now than I did before. I=92d give the part of the book that follows Ashley=92s struggles a solid thumbs-up. The rest of the book=85well, it=92s standard Jack Weyland.=20 And that=92s okay. =20 --Katie Parker __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 14 May 2001 13:53:17 -0600 "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" wrote: > > RichardDutcher writes: > >I feel that if we, as LDS artists, only represent ourselves as strong, > >faithful and sinless, we deny the Savior. > > Philosophically, I suppose, I take your point. The problem is, I know > Latter-day Saints (not me, of course, but others) who are strong, faithful, > and so close to sinless that I wonder what keeps them attached to earth. > Their lives don't make for good theatre, but I have a tough time thinking > the Savior believes their lives deny Him. I don't know these people, so you may be right, but may I suggest that, if you were to walk a couple of days in their shoes, you may have a different opinion, depending, of course, on you definition of "so close to sinless." I know a lot of people who appear to be that way, but when I've got to know them better, I find them more "human" than I had previously thought. Just a couple of anecdotal examples. A BYU professor, former mission president, has a "secret" cache of quality films, many of them R-rated, many of them foreign films that should be R-rated that he regularly enjoys with friends and family. Another, a High Councilman, a BYU law professor, outwardly and professionally (based on the cases he pursued) a very conservative individual, once described his experience as a High Councilman to me (as he cranked up Pat Benatar on his car stereo) as pretty much a "Yes-man's:" game, describing him and his fellow councilmen as "fawning sycophants." Just two examples (and I have more) of outwardly appearing paragons of Mormon orthodoxy but both of whom harbored secret sins. I just can't believe these fellows are the only two like this. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that in every case where I've becoming intimately acquainted with a person that others would describe as "strong, faithful, and close to sinlessness," I have found real people who are sometimes weak, doubtful, and secretly sinful. > > >If we refuse to acknowledge our flawed humanity we present ourselves > >as a people with no need for a Redeemer. > > By that logic, we should present ourselves only as murderous, hateful, > abusive rats who REALLY need a Redeemer. No, but as normal people, who try to live the best lives they can but who occasionally make mistakes. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Diversity in Writing Date: 14 May 2001 14:07:34 -0600 Tyler Moulton wrote: > > [The loquacious and perspicacious] Scott Parkin wrote: > > << we don't see more diversity from Mormon publishers is that they don't > see many diverse stories. They can only publish what they get--simple > supply-side market limits. > > If we don't like what we're seeing in the bookstores, we need to > write the kinds of stories we'd like to read. Some on this list are > already doing that. I think more of us should try.>>> > > Speaking from the perspective of the largest independent LDS publisher, Scott is right on the mark (as usual). Of course we have natural limits to what we can publish--defined by the intended audience for LDS books--but the greater limitation lies in what we have to choose from. > > When we turn down a good manuscript because of marketing issues, it's a reflection of (1) what our audience is interested in reading and (2) what they're willing to accept. In both cases, the categories appear to be expanding and we're trying to encourage that. How, then, do you ever discover the next "big" thing? I remember the bad old days where there we no such thing as Mormon fiction. I heard a DB representative say essentially what you have said, to justify why there was no Mormon fiction. But somewhere along the line, some editor went against the common knowledge and now we have the wonderful situation we have today. > But a publisher has to remain within an easy step of the intended audience. Some writers are several steps ahead (or to the side)--which may be great for them personally, but a bad prospect for publishing their books. But somebody has to do it, to push the envelope, or we'd all have the same kind of Mormon fiction we have today that we had ten years ago (when, for instance, you could count the number of LDS-related speculative fiction on one hand, but which today is quickly becoming a full-fledged sub-genre). Who initiates that change? The writer, I would suspect. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Starling" Subject: [AML] Re: Losing Our Uniqueness Date: 14 May 2001 14:53:26 -0600 In reply to Thom, The suspect classes are typically: divorced people (at least until they re-marry), missionaries who don't last the two years, artists, gays, the never married, etc. Those Mormons are my audience. =20 (bold added) Since I'm not in any of those groups, am I _not_ in your audience? Well, maybe I AM (hopefully) an "artist" of sorts.... And on a different subject... Several folks have talked about being "perfect" and the commandment to do = so. I believe I've heard that the Greek New Testament word that is usually = translated "perfect" is teleios {tel'-i-os} (Strong's Concordance #5046 ) It's meanings are: "brought to its end, finished" and "full grown, = adult, of full age, mature". Nowhere do I see the meaning "without blemish or error" that we attach to = it in modern usage. I think therefore the commandment "be ye perfect" might more correctly be = interpreted,=20 "be mature, grow up, finish the course" as indeed, our Father and Christ = have both done. Much the discussion takes on a different flavor in light of this interpreta= tion.... Robert Starling - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 14 May 2001 16:17:49 -0700 (PDT) "Brigham City" has elicited some interesting Letters to the Editor in the= Deseret News. One correspondent called the movie "sickeningly violent" and= accused Dutcher of trying to make money off the depictions of sacred= ordinances. It seems some Latter-day Saints are very, very touchy about= how things that are important to them are shown in a movie or on TV. This= reaction is not unique to us, of course. Many conservative, religious= people have deeply felt instincts to preserve what they see as sacredness= from the prying eyes of others. There was the famous case years ago of the= movie biography "Mohammed, Messenger of God". In order to conform with the= Muslim ban against images of the prophet, he was never shown on screen= during the length of the film (which must have been a *real* challenge for= the director.) There is the orthodox Jewish tradition of "loshon= hora"--you shall not speak evil of your brother. This means that one is= forbidden to criticize or say negative things about others, or even= yourself, for fear that the very act of depicting evil will produce it. = Such reactions raise the question: is it even possible to talk about= "Mormon art" that deals candidly with real life? If a movie that shows= missionaries as "silly little boys" (which they frequently are, believe me)= is objectionable, what hope is there of explicating the entire LDS= experience in comprehensible fashion? If Dutcher really is able to bring= off his proposed film biography of Joseph Smith, we will see whether such= an art is acceptable to the church at large, or whether we on this list are= just kidding ourselves. =20 R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Diann T Read Subject: [AML] Re: [AML-Mag] Losing Our Uniqueness? Date: 13 May 2001 21:09:37 -0500 On Thu, 10 May 2001 22:33:07 -0700 (PDT) William Morris writes: > My question is: why are Mormon artists painting > 'normal' portraits of their community? Is it to reach > a broader, non-Mormon audience? Is it to show Mormons > that they are not as peculiar as they may think? Is > it to try and hit both audiences, soften them up so > that they get used to the idea of Mormon art? What do you mean by "normal"? It seems to me that "normality" is dependent on your worldview, and what's "normal" to a lifetime member of the Church, particularly one born and reared in heavily LDS areas, is going to be very different from what's "normal" to non-Mormons. Even with several years of living in distinctly non-Mormon environments, including the military, I'm not sure I can accurately portray a non-Mormon community in a manner that a non-Mormon audience would consider "normal." So what is a "normal" portrayal of the Mormon community by Mormons? Diann Read - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 14 May 2001 22:03:41 -0600 > >The Church ends up overpowering far too many stories because Mormon > >writers seem to believe that if anything Mormon is depicted, it has to > >take center stage. This is precisely the reason so much of the popular LDS fiction bothers me - and why it would never work in a national marketplace. We LDS writers need to learn the fine art of subtlety. We also fall prey to the temptation to rely too much on miracles. By this, I'm referring to the "deus ex machina" method of conflict resolution. If we as authors are striving for national respect, we'd do well to distinguish between quiet miracles brought about by faith and an amateurish literary device brought about by desperation. Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Diversity in Writing Date: 15 May 2001 00:55:48 -0600 Tyler Moulton wrote: > But a publisher has to remain within an easy step of the intended audience. Some writers are several steps ahead (or to the side)--which may be great for them personally, but a bad prospect for publishing their books. I sympathize with much of what I hear about "educating the audience," but it can only happen incrementally. Individuals may be able to take big, bold steps forward when challenged and pushed, but institutions--or in this case markets--tend to stumble or even retreat. I'm afraid I'll be one of those authors several steps ahead--at least with my current novel. And yet, I consider the novel to be completely faithful to the Gospel: not one thing in it criticizes the Gospel, the church, or its leaders, but rather accepts it all as divinely inspired. But there are a number of times when certain characters do things that violate Gospel principles, as individuals tend to do on occasion. But I absolutely know--if the book ever sees the light of day in the publishing world--that I will get my share of readers who accuse me of gross sin or apostacy at writing the thing. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tyler Moulton" Subject: [AML] Definitions of Christian (was: Mormons as Flawed) Date: 14 May 2001 17:32:57 -0600 Richard Dutcher said: <<>> Richard, A hearty welcome to AML. You've raised an interesting question and since I = don't think you intended it rhetorically, I'd like to take it up. [If = you're patient, this will end up on topic. Bear with me.] I finished up a comparative religion PhD a few years ago in England where = I wrote my dissertation on the LDS concept of the atonement. You want to raise some eyebrows? Try writing on that topic and then applying for a position on the BYU = religion faculty. Just don't hold your breath waiting for a response. My premise was this: Since we (Mormons) have access to unique primary = source material about our Savior and the Plan of Redemption, it would = seem to make sense that we would have more to say about it (or, at least, = to ASK about it) than those outside our faith. Instead, our general understanding of the atonement itself is indistinguish= able from that of mainline protestantism from the early 1800s, and it is = consequently almost identical with modern evangelicalism. (Ironically, = hearing that would probably upset them more than it would us.) The truth is, we don't take our core doctrines very seriously--and most of = the time we don't even realize it. We expend more effort figuring out who = the tribes are or defining the dispensations than we do trying to = understand the atonement. Heck, we think more carefully when we're = watching Wheel of Fortune than when we're discussing the redemption of = Christ. How can we call such distractedness Christian? We play with the semantics = of what the term means, but to what end? The fundamental question remains: = Am I a Christian? Considering the simplistic way we treat revealed = scripture and modern revelation, I'm not even sure we can justify calling = ourselves "Mormon." Much of the discussion I hear in response to your films revolves around = issues that pertain more to cultural Mormonism than to the gospel. But = more important questions are evident in both God's Army and Brigham City, = and the absolute need for redemption--even for the good guys--is a central = concern. I long for more LDS fiction and art that helps us ask provocative and = difficult questions that are specific to us as latter-day Saints--questions= that _only_ we could ask, even if we're startled to hear them--not with = the intent of forcing us to question our faith, but rather to help us = think about it and live it more fully.=20 Tyler Moulton [MOD: Could I suggest that Tyler and others take some time to talk about what some of those "Mormon-specific" questions might be?] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Higbeejm@aol.com Subject: [AML] George MacDonald (was: Divinity on Stage) Date: 14 May 2001 22:00:36 EDT > But doubt is a stepping stone to faith. When we doubt, we investigate. > When we investigate, we get answers. When we get answers, our faith > grows. (Assuming what we are doubting is truth. If it is not truth, then > our doubt is verified and we reject it.) > > D. Michael Martindale A lesson from George MacDonald--19th century Scottish minister, prolific novelist and fantasist, inspiration to Auden, Tolkein, C.S. Lewis (who called him "My Master"), L'Engle and others... "[A] man may be haunted with doubts, and only grow thereby in faith. Doubts are the messengers of the Living One to the honest. They are the first knock at our door of things that are not yet, but have to be, understood....Doubt must precede every deeper assurance; for uncertainties are what we first see when we look into a region hitherto unknown, unexplored, unannexed." ( from _Unspoken Sermons_, "The Voice of Job") MacDonald is also one of my favorite Wise People. His writing style ranges from clunky and pedantic, to light and comic, to bold and sublime. From an LDS perspective, MacDonald is kind of a cross between Brigham Young, Jeffrey R. Holland, and Orson Scott Card. As a writer of fiction and poetry, he has hits and misses. But as a writer of practical Christian theology, he is one of the most doctrinally pure thinkers ever to grace the page. Is anybody else on the list a MacDonald fan? I'd love to see a study of MacDonald done in relation to Mormon letters--the kind of scholarship that has been done on C.S. Lewis and Mormonism over the past few years. Janelle Higbee - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: reid9 Subject: [AML] Writing Help Needed Date: 15 May 2001 12:51:38 -0500 Hi All, I received a call from my sis-in-law who lives in Salt Lake. She has a friend who has a story to tell and wants to work with a writer to tell it. The friend (I'll call her Belle) has been married twice. With her first marriage, the custody of her two sons went to her husband. With her second marriage, she has several little girls. Recently, (I think it's been in the last couple of years) her sons (much older than her daughters) have come to spend the summers with her. She recently found out that during these visits - the sons have been molesting the little girls. This woman is now looking at this terrible crime from both sides. She is bringing charges against her own sons because they molested her daughters. (A really awful situation.) Belle's counselor has suggested that she take her experience and try to get it published to help other women who might be facing similar crimes against their children. Belle has kept a journal and, actually, the entire story has not been played out yet. Melanie (my sis-in-law) knows that I am in the process of writing a novel and wondered if I would be interested in this story - but I really feel that the writer would need to be someone who is geographically a lot closer. (I live in the Midwest.) I don't know if this story would be written as a fictionalized "based-on" story or as a true "as-told-to" story. I'm sure that could be worked out between the writer and Belle. If you think that this is something that you would be interested in pursuing, please contact my sister-in-law, Melanie at melskilove@excite.com. Thanks for your help! Terri Reid - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Hatch Subject: [AML] Re: Divinity on Stage Date: 15 May 2001 11:25:16 -0700 >Tracie Laulusa wrote: >I won't even go into the great Mormon myth perpetuated in every YW >organization of the church-do this, this and this; stay morally clean; get >married in the temple; and you will live happily ever after. Interesting that you'd say that, Tracie. I think often of one of the Young Women from a ward we were in. Her father was the bishop. She seemed to do everything she'd been taught. She went to BYU, married, then quickly came home to her parents, then divorced. She left the church, and years later, as far as I know, is still gone. What she said was that she had done everything she had been taught to do, and it didn't work. And then, during one of last week's Mother's Day Sacrament meeting talks, the speaker read several quotations and spoke at length about how a woman determines the spirit of her home and family. What a great burden to put on a woman! What about homes where there is abuse, alcoholism, drug addiction, unrighteous dominion? How is a woman's cheerfulness supposed to overcome the devastation these problems cause to the spirit of the family? I had hoped for so much more from that particular speaker, but there she was, perpetuating the myth. I think literature that teaches young women about these things is critical. I wish we had more of it. Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kellene Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 14 May 2001 12:55:31 -0600 I think Thom's right on one count--certainly there are people out there who put a great deal of effort into creating the perfect Mormon "front." They purposely hide their sins while pretending to be as practically perfect as you can be in this life without being translated. But, I also know people, intimately and deeply and well, who are indeed strong, faithful, and while certainly not sinless, are grappling with sins that seem pretty minor to me! One of the differences I see between these people and the people Thom refers to is a purposeful intent to deceive. These two people that Thom talks about seem to be pretending to live one way while disregarding gospel teachings on a personal level. The people who I think LauraMaery refers to are those truly Christ-like people who I absolutely know exist. In fact, as you get to know them more closely and more intimately, you become even more inspired rather than disillusioned. Thank heavens those people exist. Otherwise, what's the use of even trying to become like Christ if, in fact, we are unable to do so. Kellene - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] George MacDonald Date: 15 May 2001 13:19:00 -0600 At 10:00 PM 5/14/01 -0400, you wrote: >Is anybody else on the list a MacDonald fan? I'd love to see a study of >MacDonald done in relation to Mormon letters--the kind of scholarship that >has been done on C.S. Lewis and Mormonism over the past few years. I've been trying to learn more about him, and to find some of his writing. Perhaps you can point me to some sources. The local library's holdings don't offer much. Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Losing Our Uniqueness Date: 15 May 2001 14:48:45 -0600 (MDT) > I believe I've heard that the Greek New Testament word that is usually = > translated "perfect" is > teleios {tel'-i-os} (Strong's Concordance #5046 ) > It's meanings are: "brought to its end, finished" and "full grown, = > adult, of full age, mature". > Nowhere do I see the meaning "without blemish or error" that we attach to = > it in modern usage. > > I think therefore the commandment "be ye perfect" might more correctly be = > interpreted,=20 > "be mature, grow up, finish the course" as indeed, our Father and Christ = > have both done. > > Much the discussion takes on a different flavor in light of this interpreta= > tion.... > > Robert Starling Except that - for the Greeks and other ancient cultures (as well as how some peopel see it today) - being mature, finishing the course and having grown up mean being without blemish. I've taken a few classes in Koine (New Testament) Greek - and telios mean "completed" but it also means "perfection" in the sense that when you finish the course - you are perfected, and are without blemish. Being perfect is the sign you have reached the end - so of course few of us will actually make it in this life - but the scriptures have described a few people besides Jesus as being perfect - so it is possible to accomplish. Just because we can play semantic games with the meanings of Greek words does not mean we can't work towards the goal of perfection. I'll get out my several dozen Greek concordances/dictionaries/grammars/etc. to back up my assertions if I need to. --Ivan Wolfe [MOD: I'm calling a halt to the question of original Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic/interpretation of scriptures/etc., which is really off-topic for AML-List. On the other hand, it's still very much appropriate to talk about what "striving for perfection" means in terms of what Mormon literature is and should be, and how it plays into artistic depictions of believing Mormon characters.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 15 May 2001 15:02:02 -0600 At 01:53 PM 5/14/01 -0600, you wrote: >Another, a >High Councilman, a BYU law professor, outwardly and professionally >(based on the cases he pursued) a very conservative individual, once >described his experience as a High Councilman to me (as he cranked up >Pat Benatar on his car stereo) as pretty much a "Yes-man's:" game, >describing him and his fellow councilmen as "fawning sycophants." Reminds me of a comment Charlotte Bronte made in the preface to Jane Eyre: "Conventionality is not morality." A brave thing to say during the Victorian era. . . . Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Losing Our Uniqueness Date: 15 May 2001 15:57:09 -0600 Robert Starling wrote: > > In reply to Thom, > > The suspect classes are typically: divorced people (at least until they > re-marry), missionaries who don't last the two years, artists, gays, the > never married, etc. Those Mormons are my audience. > (bold added) > > Since I'm not in any of those groups, am I _not_ in your audience? Yes, you would be. Because you are LDS. Many people who've seen some of my stuff who don't fit into those categories seem to appreciate what I'm trying to do. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Definitions of Christian Date: 15 May 2001 17:02:37 -0500 At 05:32 PM 5/14/01 -0600, you wrote: >A hearty welcome to AML. You've raised an interesting question and since I >don't think you intended it rhetorically, I'd like to take it up. [If >you're patient, this will end up on topic. Bear with me.] > >I finished up a comparative religion PhD a few years ago in England where >I wrote my dissertation on the LDS concept of the atonement. > >You want to raise some eyebrows? > >Try writing on that topic and then applying for a position on the BYU >religion faculty. > >Just don't hold your breath waiting for a response. > >[snip for brevity] > >I long for more LDS fiction and art that helps us ask provocative and >difficult questions that are specific to us as latter-day >Saints--questions that _only_ we could ask, even if we're startled to hear >them--not with the intent of forcing us to question our faith, but rather >to help us think about it and live it more fully. > >Tyler Moulton > >[MOD: Could I suggest that Tyler and others take some time to talk about >what some of those "Mormon-specific" questions might be?] And any ideas they have about the answers . . . -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Duvall Subject: Re: [AML] George MacDonald Date: 15 May 2001 16:39:36 -0600 The Victorian Collection in Special Collections at BYU contains 17 first editions of works written by George Macdonald. The general stacks at the Harold B. Lee Library, BYU contains many more later editions. Scott Duvall Special Collections Harold B. Lee Library Brigham Young University - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: [AML] Public Domain Date: 15 May 2001 22:17:45 -0400 A question: Is there some easy way to figure out what is 'in the public domain'? A web site you can look at or something? Thanks Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] BENSON/BLACK, _Salt Lake 2002_ Date: 15 May 2001 19:15:17 -0500 A post today at Mormon News included the following: "Authors Lee Benson and Susan Easton Black have recently published a beautiful collection of full color photographs of Olympic venues with a narration on the history of the Games and Utah's efforts to host them. "Salt Lake 2002," will also feature brilliant images of the Beehive State by award-winning photgrapher John Telford." The book is published by Deseret Book and is one of two items, Mormon News said, that Deseret Book is producing in celebration of the 2002 Olympic Games. The other item has stirred up some controversy and is not really related to Mormon letters, as discussed on this list. If you do happen to feel that "CTR" is related to Mormon letters, or if you need a good laugh about the melding of culture, politics, business, money, the Church, Utah, and the Olympics, check out the sites below for details. And thanks to Mormon News and Rosemary Pollock for the lead. New Deseret Book Olympic "CTR" Charm Leads to Controversy Sources: LDS Slogan Leading a Charmed Life Salt Lake Tribune 12May01 D4 http://www.sltrib.com/05122001/utah/96774.htm By Linda Fantin: Salt Lake Tribune Culture Vulture: Stir it up Salt Lake Tribune 11May01 D4 http://www.sltrib.com/05112001/friday/96402.htm Charming Olympic Collectibles Offered by Deseret Book Deseret Book Press Release (If there was a URL for the press release, my combination high tech browser and el cheapo mail reader didn't find it, sorry. Larry.) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 16 May 2001 00:28:19 -0600 Katie Parker wrote: > Another thing that bothered me is a stylistic trait of > Weyland's. When introducing a character, he > occasionally jumps in and gives his or her life story > in a few paragraphs. Another technique that he uses > is to completely switch to the other person's point of > view, so that we can see their true intentions. > Neither one of these really has to be a problem, but > both of them bother me. Yes, these are problems. They are not stylistic choices. They are clear mistakes that simply do not go over well with today's audience. I recently read a twenty-year-old collection of Weyland stories, then wrote a review about the book. You never saw it, because it was so scathing, Jonathan bounced it back to me. I never bothered rewriting it, because I couldn't bring myself to be less scathing. Although it sounds like Weyland has made some progress by the way you describe his handling of bulemia, it's also apparent that he has made no progress in other areas since those early short stories. Why has no one pulled him aside and told him about point of view or the handling of exposition and backstory yet? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 16 May 2001 01:11:54 -0600 To flaw or not to flaw, that is the question. Some have suggested that we need to show flawed Mormons our in literature or it's simply not realistic. Others have said that nearly flawless Mormons actually do exist, and we shouldn't shrink from showing them. I think both are true. Although I would doubt the assertion that "nearly perfect" Mormons exist (the greatest spiritual giants have made some pretty huge blunders), I can believe that spiritual giants who have genuine Christlike love for others and strive to obey the commandments to the best of their ability do exist. The problem arises by pretending that the whole church is that way, that all Mormons are nearly flawless. That we should never show a flawed Mormon or no one will become converted anymore. These are clearly falsehoods, and if we insist on literature that reflects these lies, we are lying. If we are to show spiritual giants in literature, we need to depict them realistically, let them come by their blessed state honestly. A Jean Valjean type who achieves greatness through tribulation, soul-searching, and personal sacrifice, not a near-flawless being simply because he or she is Mormon. There's room in our literature for all types of Mormons at all levels of spirituality. While no individual work is obliged to portray any type within that spectrum other than what the author wants to portray, the body of literature as a whole must portray them all. If any are left out, the literature is dishonest. Either side of the debate seems to want to leave the other side out. They attempt to enforce that desire by saying, not "I don't want to read about that type of Mormon, so I won't," but, "You shouldn't write about that type of Mormon." That's where the line is crossed. That's where the dishonesty arises, because "that type of Mormon" does exist--whatever that type may be--so "that type" needs to be written about at some point by some author who wants to. And the rest of us need to let it happen. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: Re: [AML] Public Domain Date: 16 May 2001 06:15:42 -0600 >From: "Tracie Laulusa" > >Is there some easy way to figure out what is 'in the public domain'? A web >site you can look at or something? > >Thanks >Tracie > The Copyright Office website is < http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/ > The basics are on the website. The grey area is the time period between 1923 and 1951, and it depends on whether an extension was filed. Be aware that copyright searches are expensive. You can do a search over the Internet, but the process is a bit complicated. good luck, Bob Hughes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: Re: [AML] _Salt Lake 2002_ Date: 16 May 2001 10:59:12 -0400 Do publishers and booksellers expect an increased nonmember interest in Mormon-themed books during the Olympic Games? In other words, will the chances of marketing a book containing Mormon themes be easier now because of the Olympics than it will be at any other time? Or will the Olympics not really have a tsunami effect at all in the market for M. books? Tom > A post today at Mormon News included the following: > > "Authors Lee Benson and Susan Easton Black have > recently published a beautiful collection of full color > photographs of Olympic venues with a narration on the > history of the Games and Utah's efforts to host them. > "Salt Lake 2002," will also feature brilliant images of the > Beehive State by award-winning photgrapher John Telford." > > The book is published by Deseret Book and is one of > two items, Mormon News said, that Deseret Book is > producing in celebration of the 2002 Olympic Games. > > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: [AML] Dutcher Joseph Smith Project (was: Mormons as Flawed) Date: 15 May 2001 20:31:08 -0600 I have no time to initiate a discussion, but I'd love to read what others think of Richard Dutcher's newest project. Honestly, Dutcher is so good at depicting focused, personal conflict that I am a little nervous about his tackling the subject of Joseph Smith--a man who is an icon to many. Both _God's Army_ and _Brigham City_ keep within a pretty narrow time frame and tight focus. We've seen Susan Howe address Joseph Smith's personal conflicts in Liberty Jail in _Burdens of Earth_ and Thom Duncan's addressing the difficulties of Joseph's living as both a prophet and a man in _Prophet_. Bryce Chamberlain did a one-man show about Joseph--which I didn't see. Anyway, I consider Dutcher a gifted film maker, with particular talent in the personal story. I hope he can use those gifts in his current project. The subject is just so huge, and with so many dimensions. [Margaret Young] "R.W. Rasband" wrote: > [snip] If a movie that shows= > missionaries as "silly little boys" (which they frequently are, believe me)= > is objectionable, what hope is there of explicating the entire LDS= > experience in comprehensible fashion? If Dutcher really is able to bring= > off his proposed film biography of Joseph Smith, we will see whether such= > an art is acceptable to the church at large, or whether we on this list are= > just kidding ourselves. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 16 May 2001 01:21:43 -0600 "R.W. Rasband" wrote: > "Brigham City" has elicited some interesting Letters to the Editor in the > Deseret News. One correspondent called the movie "sickeningly violent" and > accused Dutcher of trying to make money off the depictions of sacred > ordinances. It seems some Latter-day Saints are very, very touchy about > how things that are important to them are shown in a movie or on TV. > Such reactions raise the question: is it even possible to talk about > "Mormon art" that deals candidly with real life? If a movie that shows > missionaries as "silly little boys" (which they frequently are, believe me) > is objectionable, what hope is there of explicating the entire LDS > experience in comprehensible fashion? If Dutcher really is able to bring > off his proposed film biography of Joseph Smith, we will see whether such > an art is acceptable to the church at large, or whether we on this list are > just kidding ourselves. The squeaky wheel does indeed get the grease, doesn't it! A few extreme reactions in the newspaper, and we're wondering if a realistic Mormon art can even exist. But remember, _God's Army_ was profitable. _Brigham City_ shows every sign of being the same. They are successes. Is it possible to talk about "Mormon art" that deals candidly with real life? Of course it is. How do you do it? Ignore the naysayers, as every individual who has advanced the human condition since the beginning of time has done. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 16 May 2001 09:26:50 -0600 Kellene Adams wrote: > > Otherwise, what's the use of even trying > to become like Christ if, in fact, we are unable to do so. That depends on what your definition of what "Christ-like" is. IF being Christ-like means you must never sin, be nice to everyone you meet, say yes to every calling you receive without hesitation, serve a perfect mission, etc., then you will inevitably be disappointed. If, however, Christ-like is more a mind-set, in which you strive to treat others fairly, to never purposely hurt another person, and to do your best to live the principles of the Gospel as you understand them to be, then you will see more successes. Also, if you define Christ-like as the second definition, I would be inclined to agree with you and LauraMaery that there are a lot of those people in and out of the Church. The wonderful thing about this Church, both as members of it, and as writers, is the incredible multiplicity of personalities that make it such a rich mine of character and situation, and example. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] George MacDonald Date: 16 May 2001 09:55:28 -0600 [MOD: This is a compilation of two posts by Marilyn.] Barbara, I just have to mention that I cut my literary teeth on George McDonald! I LOVE his work, and read everything outloud to my family when we were bitsy. I am so tempted to write a musical about Curdie and the Princess. Or the Light Princess. It's all in public domain. Thanks for bringing him up! Marilyn Brown (I answered the answering post). YES! George McDonald is my favorite. Let's resurrect him. I'll write the musicals, (Curdie and the Princess and Light Princess and Back of the North Wind) you write the criticism. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: [AML] Donny Osmond Concert Date: 16 May 2001 08:34:06 -0400 Donny Osmond was in concert here last night. I didn't go, but I'm listening to the radio and the DJs are taking calls about it. Apparently it was a big hit. Fans are saying it is the best concert they've ever seen. And people who waited around for autographs are saying how gracious and wonderful Donny is. Amazing success. Tracie Laulusa - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 16 May 2001 12:36:18 -0400 But lots of readers really like his books and they sell. Obviously it doesn't bother everyone. Why should he change if what he is doing works? Maybe he really enjoys writing that way as well, so doesn't even have a personal motivation to change. He writes, they buy. It works. Tracie Laulusa -----Original Message----- Yes, these are problems. They are not stylistic choices. They are clear mistakes that simply do not go over well with today's audience. I recently read a twenty-year-old collection of Weyland stories, then wrote a review about the book. You never saw it, because it was so scathing, Jonathan bounced it back to me. I never bothered rewriting it, because I couldn't bring myself to be less scathing. Although it sounds like Weyland has made some progress by the way you describe his handling of bulemia, it's also apparent that he has made no progress in other areas since those early short stories. Why has no one pulled him aside and told him about point of view or the handling of exposition and backstory yet? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Public Domain Date: 16 May 2001 12:37:39 -0400 So, are you saying that pretty much anything before 1923 is 'in the public domain'? And is that just literature or does it apply to music as well. (I have read some, probably tiny amount, of available information, and admit some confusion.) I have a book of poems by Emily Dickinson. I thought Emily Dickinson wrote long enough ago that her poetry would be in the public domain. Yet, this book clearly states that it may not be reproduced in whole or part by any means whatsoever and so forth. I can probably find every poem somewhere on the web. What is this book copyrighting? Their particular editing job? The page layout? Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: [AML] Larry BARKDULL, _Praise to the Man_ (Review) Date: 16 May 2001 11:09:52 -0600 Barkdull, Larry. _Praise to the Man._ Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1997. 134 pp. ISBN 1-57345-320-X, mass-market paperback. $6.95. The back cover of _Praise to the Man_ claims that Barkdull's book tells the "poignant story behind the lyrics." Although it does tell the story behind the popular Latter-day Saint lyrics by William Wines Phelps, this telling falls far short of poignant. Barkdull's text creates its own biggest distraction. The narrator, Washington Talesford, travels from Missouri to get a deathbed interview with W. W. Phelps in Salt Lake City. Talesford supposedly wrote the text of this book in 1872, telling the story that he could not write for his anti-Mormon newspaper. Now, if you read from the seven-volume History of the Church or from W. W. Phelps's newspaper _The Evening and Morning Star,_ you notice distinct word choice and turns of phrase that date these works as originating in the nineteenth century. Barkdull fails to present any sense that Talesford's narrative originated in the 1870s. For example, Barkdull has W. W. Phelps say, "The Prophet directed Bishop Partridge to guard against freeloaders" (34), but the term _freeloader_ didn't come into use until 1934 [1]. I could have accepted anachronistic words and a modern tone if Barkdull had just told the story instead of posing the text as Talesford's own composition. The next biggest distraction comes from sloppy editing by Deseret Book. In one place, the text misspells W. W. Phelps's middle name by leaving off the _s_ (vii). On pages 46-49, Barkdull tries to transcribe an uneducated man's dialect. Barkdull uses contractions to show the sounds the man clips from his words, but half the contractions have an opening single quote instead of the correct apostrophe. Also in this section, Barkdull uses three forms for the word _to_: "to," "ta," and "t'." Perhaps some speakers do use different forms of the same word depending on context, but with all the other poor typesetting, I must suspect a sloppy proofreader. Even without the contemporary tone and poor editing dragging my attention away from the story line, you don't have much of a chance to really get involved in the plot. Barkdull uses one of the least effective expository methods: talking heads. You get the entire plot of _Praise to the Man_ through Talesford's transcribed notes of various interviews with W. W. Phelphs and others. This exposition provides no real sense of urgency or emotion from the conversations between these characters as they listen and question each other. A more effective method would have started each interview chapter with a short section of present time conversation and then transition into a straight narrative of the past events. Barkdull also distances us from W. W. Phelps by forcing us to see him through the eyes of a non-Mormon narrator. Talesford has his own problems, and the development and resolution of those problems compete with the reconciliation of W. W. Phelps with Joseph Smith and the Church. A cover blurb promises "a story of uncommon friendship," but instead of receiving the story of an amazing friendship we get Talesford's dull retelling of a dull interview. _Praise to the Man_ contains the elements of a powerful story, but distractions and poor expository methods kept me so far from feeling anything for the characters that I never had a chance to get emotionally involved. No minor changes could repair the text as it stands. A complete rewrite would seem in order to bring the story Barkdull wanted to tell to the forefront and give the story a chance to tug at my emotions. Unfortunately, Deseret Book did not insist on such changes, and a rewrite seems unlikely. [1] Merriam-Webster online collegiate dictionary (www.m-w.com). ### -- Terry Jeffress | A creative writer must study carefully the | works of his rivals, including the AML Webmaster and | Almighty. -- Vladimir Nabokov AML-List Review Archivist | - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 16 May 2001 12:51:00 -0700 Thom wrote, in response to LauraMaery: > I don't know these people, so you may be right, but may I suggest that, > if you were to walk a couple of days in their shoes, you may have a > different opinion, depending, of course, on you definition of "so close > to sinless." I know a lot of people who appear to be that way, but when > I've got to know them better, I find them more "human" than I had > previously thought. Just a couple of anecdotal examples. A BYU > professor, former mission president, has a "secret" cache of quality > films, many of them R-rated, many of them foreign films that should be > R-rated that he regularly enjoys with friends and family. Another, a > High Councilman, a BYU law professor, outwardly and professionally > (based on the cases he pursued) a very conservative individual, once > described his experience as a High Councilman to me (as he cranked up > Pat Benatar on his car stereo) as pretty much a "Yes-man's:" game, > describing him and his fellow councilmen as "fawning sycophants." I don't understand how the men in these examples are sinning. Or are you using the word "sin" in an ironic sense? So the former mission president has some videos of quality R-rated films. You did say *quality*, right? And he refers to his cache as "secret". Obviously he's being ironic. But is his collection "secret" because he thinks he's doing wrong? Or is it "secret" because the whole R-rated movie issue is so polarized that nobody can talk calmly about it (especially in Provo, the ground-zero of the Mormon culture wars), and because too many people in his community are quick to judge and slow to listen? (And even though I think that the R-rated movie issue is contemporary Mormonism's equivalent of Jewish kosher regulations, since some folks get more indignant about others breaking this rule than they do about people breaking the Word of Wisdom -- nevertheless, can we please NOT reopen the R-rated movie thread right now?) And how was the High Councilman sinning? Because he was listening to Pat Benatar? Because he was conservative? (I assume you meant politically conservative, rather than morally conservative?) Or because he was a "fawning sycophant"? I'm not trying to argue. I just don't get how this connects to "sin". Thom again: > Just two examples (and I have more) of outwardly appearing paragons of > Mormon orthodoxy but both of whom harbored secret sins. Maybe these 2 guys were "sinning" against "Mormon orthodoxy". But I don't see how they were breaking the commandments -- which I believe is the kind of "sin" that LauraMaery was talking about. And I'm sure we can take the High Councilman's description of being a "fawning sycophant" at face value. He, too, may have been speaking ironically. And even if he wasn't, I don't think it's safe to take his description as definitive of what goes on in his stake's high council. The dynamics of any small group should not be judged based on one off-hand comment, but upon the cumulative interactions and impressions of all the group members over a fair period of time. An organizational theorist might find the "sycophancy" joke to be the natural by-product of enduring an authoritarian, non-consensus-based, management style in that group. (This could lead to a long discussion about old vs. new leadership paradigms, in which we cite Steve Covey, Tom Peters, Margaret Wheatley, and D&C 121, which of course would be off-topic for AML-List. ) Thom again: > I just can't > believe these fellows are the only two like this. In fact, I'll go so > far as to say that in every case where I've becoming intimately > acquainted with a person that others would describe as "strong, > faithful, and close to sinlessness," I have found real people who are > sometimes weak, doubtful, and secretly sinful. > > > >If we refuse to acknowledge our flawed humanity we present ourselves > > >as a people with no need for a Redeemer. > > > > By that logic, we should present ourselves only as murderous, hateful, > > abusive rats who REALLY need a Redeemer. > > No, but as normal people, who try to live the best lives they can but > who occasionally make mistakes. > I agree with your conclusion, Thom. Let's portray Mormons as normal people, as you said. It also seems that this thread of "Mormons as Flawed" is actually dealing with the use of "flat" characters versus "round" characters. But there's more than one way to make characters "round". One is to show their little weaknesses in addition to their strengths, as I think you're suggesting, Thom. The other is to show how the character's strengths were developed through tribulation, as someone else has suggested. LauraMaery, an interesting experiment would be to interview a couple of the strong, faithful people you've observed. What have they gone through? Do they consider themselves faithful or strong? And after interviewing them, if you were to depict them in fiction or biography, how would you make their characters "round"? Regards, Frank Maxwell Gilroy, California - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MHoltTsutsui@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 16 May 2001 15:55:33 EDT In a message dated 5/16/2001 2:16:09 PM Central Daylight Time, dmichael@wwno.com writes: > < individual who has advanced the human condition since the beginning of > time has done.>> If Christ himself wasn't popular with everyone, then why should an artist of integrity expect to be? Marie Tsutsui - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] Donny Osmond Concert Date: 16 May 2001 13:58:44 -0600 Where was this concert? I like Donny's voice, and he's a very nice man. I recently bought a CD of his, mainly because he's Mormon and nice, and found that I really enjoy it. I was thinking, listening to his strong, clear voice, that it must be wonderful to open your mouth to sing and have something that sounds great come out! Not an experience I've ever had. The CD has a cute duet with Donny and Rosemary O'Donnell, which is amusing after their little tiff. Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] George MacDonald Date: 16 May 2001 14:02:08 -0600 I appreciate also the information from Scott Duvall about the MacDonald books in the library at BYU. I tend to do my reading at other libraries where you don't have to park on the dark side of the moon and hike in. Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 16 May 2001 14:24:18 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > Is it possible to talk about "Mormon art" that deals candidly with real > life? Of course it is. How do you do it? Ignore the naysayers, as every > individual who has advanced the human condition since the beginning of > time has done. You should also ignore the yay-sayers, so as not to think that you, the artist, are more than a vessel for your talent, rather than the source of it. That could be an interesting thread: "What can we do as Mormon artists, if we are suddenly blessed with massive success, to maintain our equilibrium? How do we keep from falling into Babylon's vanity trap?" -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: RE: [AML] Public Domain Date: 16 May 2001 14:36:48 -0600 >From: "Tracie Laulusa" >So, are you saying that pretty much anything before 1923 is 'in the public >domain'? And is that just literature or does it apply to music as well. >I have a book of poems by Emily Dickinson. I thought Emily Dickinson wrote >long enough ago that her poetry would be in the public domain. Yet, this >book clearly states that it may not be reproduced in whole or part by any >means whatsoever and so forth. I can probably find every poem somewhere on >the web. What is this book copyrighting? Their particular editing job? >The page layout? > >Tracie Pretty much anything that was published prior to 1923 is in the public domain. I don’t know anything about music, but I assume it is the same as literary works. For works published between 1923 and 1951, it depends on whether the copyright holder filed an extension. If so, then they still hold the copyright. If not, it is likely in the public domain (though in some cases the creator of the work may have filed a separate copyright claim from the publisher, so it isn’t as clear as pre-1923). For anything after 1951, the copyright is still in force. In the case of Emily Dickinson, only a handful of her poems were published in her lifetime. After she died her sister discovered 700+ poems and arranged to have them published. The publishers did an editing job to make her work more palatable to turn-of-the-century readers, but what was published may not have been what Dickinson actually composed. The first editions that came out in the 1890’s are now in the public domain. But again, they are not the poems as Dickinson penned them. Since then, various university presses have come out with dueling editions of Dickinson’s works with the hopes of getting it right. These critical editions rely on Dickinson’s scratches on scraps of paper, and the scholars attempt to get as close to the original as possible. For example, in the first edition the poem that begins “The Gentian weaves her fringes--” becomes three separate poems in a new critical edition, based on a scholar’s observation about how Dickinson separated stanzas versus her separation of poems. The newer editions are obviously different from the first editions, and the copyrights are in force for the more recent ones. regards, Bob Hughes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Public Domain Date: 16 May 2001 14:42:49 -0600 Tracie Laulusa wrote: > > So, are you saying that pretty much anything before 1923 is 'in the public > domain'? Go out to this site: http://www.gutenberg.net/ and search for any book you may think is in public domain. If they have it, it is. You can also browse if you just want to see what's available. Interestingly enough, I did a search on the Book of Mormon. It is available as a public domain book. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Dutcher Joseph Smith Project Date: 16 May 2001 14:52:51 -0600 Margaret Young wrote: > > I have no time to initiate a discussion, but I'd love to read what others think > of Richard Dutcher's newest project. Honestly, Dutcher is so good at depicting > focused, personal conflict that I am a little nervous about his tackling the > subject of Joseph Smith--a man who is an icon to many. I think this project has basically the same challenges as the eagerly-awaited "Lord of the Rings" trilogy coming out soon--if perhaps to a smaller degree. It's going to be next to impossible to please the majority of people (never mind "everybody," which we all know can't be pleased), because everyone feels like they own the Joseph Smith story in a personal way. This is why Dutcher is making the film now himself--he's afraid someone else won't please him if they beat him to it. I have the same concern. The film will have to be dang good to overcome this. And I think Dutcher has a better chance than most to accomplish that. And do you know why? Because he's not afraid to be honest in his films. He doesn't sit around fretting whether they can pass Correlation. He just tells the story like a good storyteller should. But it'll still be tough walking into that theater with an objective mind--just like when I go see "Lord of the Rings" #1. I'm sure we'll hear from the usual suspects how horrible it'll be that he dared to desecrate the sanctity of the Joseph Smith story yada yada. Meanwhile, LDS members will flock to the theaters in throngs to see the one story they've been dying to see on the silver screen since the church and motion pictures began. It takes a lot of hubris to decide to be the one to do it--and a lot of courage. Pride cometh before the Fall (does that mean his next film will be about Adam and Eve, rated R for nudity?) P.S. Courage and hubris are traits I admire. Not vain pride, as in, "I'm so much better than you," but hubris, as in, "I'm going to tackle this challenge that everyone considers too challenging." You know that kind of challenge; the one that causes people to say, "What makes you think you can do it?" -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Public Domain Date: 16 May 2001 15:02:49 -0700 On Wed, 16 May 2001 12:37:39 "Tracie Laulusa" writes > I have a book of poems by Emily Dickinson. I thought Emily > Dickinson wrote long enough ago that her poetry would be in > thepublic domain. Yet, this book clearly states that it may not > be reproduced in whole or part by any means whatsoever and > so forth. I can probably find every poem somewhere on the > web. What is this book copyrighting? Their particular editing > job? The page layout? > > Tracie When was the book published, Tracie? When we did Marden Clark's _Liberating Form_ back in 1991-2 we included one of ED's poems, and the book said the same thing, so we wrote to the publisher (Oxford UP? Harvard UP?) and they wrote back and said that we didn't need permission as ED's works were in the public domain. ED is a special case because so little of her work was published in her own lifetime. According to Brooks, Lewis and Warren, _American Literature, The Makers and the Making_ the first series of ED's poems was published in 1890, 2nd series in 1891, 3rd in 1896, 10 years after her death--but the first well-edited edition didn't come out till 1924 and 1929 (right in the gray area Bob Hughes mentioned, 1923-1951). The 3-volume variorum ("including variant readings critically compared with all known manuscripts," as Thomas Johnson, ed. _The Complete Poems of Emily Dickinson_ put it) came out in 1955, but wasn't widely accessible, so Johnson brought out a non-scholarly collection, _Final Harvest_ in 1961. (see p. 1233. Interesting that ED starts out volume 2, the moderns.) What makes ED a special case is that unpublished material is not necessarily in the public domain (which is why Willa Cather's letters remain unpublished, per her will) and a scholar who published a manuscript could copyright it. I don't know if that still holds true with recent copyright changes, or when ED's works entered the public domain, but I hope I've given some idea of why the editions of ED you're likely to see in libraries carry a copyright notice. Harlow Clark (Just waiting to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable. BTW, Cynthia Hallen, lexicographer and ED scholar once told me ED's temple work has been done two or three times--ah, the un-batch-processable poet!) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Cracroft's LDS Classics (Meridian) Date: 17 May 2001 06:19:24 +0900 Richard Cracroft, an English professor at BYU and AML stalwart, has a new article on Meridian Magazine,: "Some 'Classic' LDS Novels (Anyway, I Think So)." http://www.meridianmagazine.com/classicscorner/010515lds.html I asked him if we could post the article on AML, and he replied: Andrew: Sure, go ahead. Readers will be sure to note that I have left off some wonderful--but too controversial for Meridian--writers, such as Levi Peterson, John Bennion, and other books by Virginia Sorensen. In other words, the list for Meridian is different from the list for AML. Richard So here is the article: Some "Classic" LDS Novels (Anyway, I Think So) by Richard H. Cracroft Mark Twain said that "a classic is a book which everyone praises but no one reads"; my personal definition of a "classic" is one which I have read (usually several times) thoroughly enjoyed, and place on a mental shelf to which I return again and again, and which becomes part of my frame of reference, and which I will eventually read again--and again (emotionally, if not actually), and recommend to others--again and again. With that definition in mind, I present, 'umbly (and knowing that many readers will demur, mumble, grumble, and wonder), a list of Some Novels Which I Believe Will Delight, Uplift, Inspire, and Entertain Most LDS Readers. My criteria are simple: 1) I personally like these novels; they please me; 2).they are well-written; 3) they are reader-tested: between 1972-2001, I have taught most of these books in my Literature of the Latter-day Saint courses, some I have taught many times; these novels have risen to the top of the heap as the books that students like to read, discuss, and write about; 4) these are the books that, for the most part, are redolent with LDS-ness; 5) I have omitted some popular LDS novels and novelists from the list because a) there are so many of them; b) they have not (yet) stood the test of time--most of them, uplifting and entertaining and even well written, are ephemeral-they come and they pass, without sticking to the soul-at least to mine. In nearly every course I have taught at least one current, popular novel; I have seldom taught them more than once-and some of the books I'm recommending here are so new I haven't had time to teach them yet! And so the canon-the "Classics"--that generally accepted list of enduring and significant LDS novels gradually takes shape over time, and these become the "standard works" of Mormon literature-the books which one needs to know to be savvy about LDS literature. Many of the books on this list belong to the "canon" of Mormon novels (a wonderful list of LDS short stories is yet another column, down the road, perhaps). Some don't belong-yet, and may never belong. Some of the canonical novels are not on the list because they treat their subjects in ways which would upset many :LDS readers-so I omit them, even if I like them personally. Remember, this is a list of fine books which I think will appeal to most LDS readers; it is my personal list and, unlike some of my recent lists, is not a comprehensive "Best Mormon Novels" list-in fact, I am painfully aware of the gaps in this necessarily limited list and apologize for its unevenness. But it's a good list and will, I suspect, have a number of surprises for some of you who didn't know there is such a saintly body of writing out there. I invite readers to send in recommendations of LDS novels which I have not listed here, but which have made a difference in your lives and which, classic or not, you feel would appeal to Classics Corner readers. Send me your picks by May 25, with a one-line statement about the book's significance. I reserve the right to judge as to whether the book will appeal to our readers. So, enough disclaimers and pussy-footing. Here's the list: Some Novels Which I Think Will Delight, Uplift, Inspire, and Entertain Most LDS Readers (And If You Disagree, Woe, Woe Be Unto You . . . ) Anderson, Nephi, Added Upon (Bookcraft, 1898; 1997, 53rd Printing); this is the "first" Mormon novel, the granddaddy of Saturday's Warriors and My Turn on Earth; it's not great fiction, but you can't beat the Subject Matter. Arnold, Marilyn, Desert Song (Covenant Communications, 1998), Song of Hope (1999), and Sky Full of Ribbons (2000): a trilogy of novels about a (less-active) LDS English professor who re-discovers her Utah roots and her faith and has some exciting adventures en route. Brown, Marilyn, The Earthkeepers Trilogy (Aspen Books,1992-1994)-Thorns of the Sun, Shadows of Angels, and Royal House-the saga of a Mormon family and the settling of Utah Valley through World War I. Brown, Marilyn, Statehood (Aspen Books, 1995): an historical novel featuring George Q. Cannon and the exciting time of transition between the Manifesto of 1890, the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple in 1893, and the coming of statehood in 1896. Brown, Marilyn, The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass (Cedar Ft. Inc., 2000); a well-written historical novel about the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the challenges of plural marriage. Some people just don't like novels about massacres and polygamy; this is a wonderful handling of both sensitive topics. Card, Orson Scott, Saints (TOR, 1984); a powerful and moving love story set in Nauvoo and featuring Joseph Smith, Emma, and the fictional heroine, Dinah Kirkham, who is Joseph's plural wife (she reminds us of Eliza R. Snow); Card has written in my copy, "My love story to our people"-and it is. Of course, any fiction attempting to portray the Prophet Joseph and plural marriage is bound to unsettle some readers, but Card succeeds in making Joseph Smith live, both as a man and a prophet of God. Card, Orson Scott, Sarah: Women of Genesis (Shadow Mountain, 2000). The first in a trilogy of new historical novels on women of Genesis, Sarah is Card's imaginative take on the life of Sarah, nee Sarai, wife of Abraham (nee Abram), and mother(at ninety) of Isaac; Card takes his bearings from the Book of Abraham. Card, Orson Scott. The Tales of Alvin Maker, 5 vols (1987-1998); Seventh Son, The Red Prophet, Prentice Alvin, Alvin Journeyman, Heartfire, a wonderfully imaginative fantasy re- telling in an alternate world of the life of Joseph Smith, Jr. /Alvin Miller, Jr. (a "Maker" with supernatural powers) and Emma/Peggy (a "Torch"-a Seer); I love these books-and so do my students. Card, Orson Scott, The Homecoming series, in 5 vols.: The Memory of Earth, The Call of Earth, The Ships of Earth, Earthfall, Earthborn (Hatrack River Publications, 1989-1998); an imaginative sci-fi rendering of the Book of Mormon: the Over-Soul leads Nefi and his brothers out of the city of Basilica on a distant planet, in order to prepare his people to return to Earth, destroyed 40 million earlier in a terrible war. Nefi is willing, of course, "to go and do what the Over- Soul commands," knowing that the Over-Soul gives no commandments to his children without preparing a way for them to accomplish the mission. Fascinating. Daybell, Chad, The Emma Trilogy (Cedar Fort, 2000), three exciting time-travel novels-An Errand for Emma, Doug's Dilemma, and Escape to Zion-which take place in the 1860s, 1944, and in the future, shortly before the coming of the Savior. Fillerup, Michael, Beyond the River (Signature, c. 1991). A well-conceived and well-executed novel about Jon Reeves' struggle to find himself and finally come to grips, as a young husband, father, and bishopric member, with the gospel and the complexities of the world as introduced to him years before by Nancy, his high school tutor and friend. He makes it! Heimerdinger, Chris, Daniel and Nephi (Covenant Communications, 1993) s, 1993), is an engaging and imaginative story of Nephi and Daniel meeting in Jerusalem, antagonizing each other and then becoming fast friends until Nephi and his family flee the city, and Daniel faces captivity among the Babylonians. Heimerdinger, Chris, Tennis Shoes Among the Nephites, series (1989-1998). The first of Heimerdinger's fun stories of time-traveling adventures of a contemporary LDS family among the Nephites. The whole series is wonderfully entertaining, especially for teenagers. Hughes, Dean, Children of the Promise series, 5 vols (Deseret Book, 1997-2000); a typical Mormon family from Sugar House, Utah, is seriously tried, tested and threatened by WWII, in these wonderfully authentic historical novels which movingly evoke the uprooting of American and Mormon lives, 1938-1947; Kemp, Kenny, I Hated Heaven (Alta Films Press, 1998)-about a man who, dying, protests so vehemently to the powers that be about work left unfinished that he get another chance. Kidd, Kathryn H., Paradise Vue (Hatrack River Publications, 1989); a hilarious, serio-comic novel about a very funny Paradise Vue Ward and its slightly unorthodox Relief Society presidency; followed by its sequel, Return to Paradise (1997); and the tonally related The Alphabet Year (1991); Lund, Gerald N., Fishers of Men, vol.1, The Kingdom and the Glory series (Shadow Mountain, 2000); the first in Lund's series about the life of Christ (begun and nearly completed, Lund tells me, before he was sidetracked into writing The Work and the Glory series. Lund, Gerald N. The Work and the Glory series, 9 vols. (Bookcraft, 1990-1998); has changed the way millions of Mormons think and feel about Mormon history, 1827-1847. Marcum, Robert, Dominion of the Gadianton (Bookcraft 1991) is one of Marcum's several exciting adventure/mystery/intrigue novels. McCloud, Susan Evans, Where the Heart Leads (1979), is one among the 30-plus LDS-centered novels, biographies, and histories by this prolific and popular author. Mitchell, Alan Rex, Angel of the Danube: Barry Monroe's Missionary Journal (Springville: Cedar Fort Inc., 2000) is the retrospective missionary journal of Elder Barry Monroe, lately of the Vienna Austria Mission, as he attempts to come to grips with the gap between an ideal mission and a mission where one's message is constantly rejected. This is a funny but basically serious novel about a young man's salvation journey/mission. Morris, Carroll Hofeling, The Broken Covenant (Deseret Book, 1985). The story of a woman's fall into sexual transgression, and the long and hard way back. Nelson, Lee, The Storm Testament (1982-1990)-a multi-volume tale of Western adventure among the Mountain Men and the Indians. Nunes, Rachel Ann, Tomorrow and Always (Covenant Communications 2000) is another in the dozen popular romance novels by this prolific author. Parkinson, Benson Y., The MTC: Set Apart (Aspen Books, 1995), features the stories of several elders' coming-of-age experiences in the Missionary Training Center as they prepare to serve in France. One of the surprisingly few missionary novels in Mormon literature. Perry, Anne, Bethlehem Road (St. Martin's Press, 1990), not actually a "Mormon" novel, but one of her internationally popular best-selling Victorian mystery series, featuring Inspector Thomas Pitt and his astute and liberated wife, Charlotte. Perry is a convert to the Church and lives in Scotland. This novel is, in part, about a Mormon woman who is starved to death by an abusive, chauvinist husband who denies her the right to make decisions about religion. Perry, Anne, Tathea (Shadow Mountain, 1999), a landmark in Mormon literature, Tathea is, at the turn of the 20th to the 21st century, what Added Upon was at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century--a wonderful fantasy re-telling of the Plan of Salvation as experienced on another planet, but one still covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. Tathea, a deposed queen, undertakes an allegorical Gospel Journey, receives and translates The Book, and preaches the gospel throughout the world It's full of sound and profound doctrine and gives the reader a refreshing distance and re-take on old truths. Smith, Robert Farrell Smith, The Trust Williams Trilogy (Deseret Book, 1999-2000), is comprised of, All Is Swell: Trust in Thelma's Way, Falling From Grace: Trust Williams at the End of the World, and Love's Labors Tossed: Trust and the Final Fling. These hilarious novels recount how Elder Trust Williams spends his mission in Thelma's Way, a backwash of Mormonism, founded by Thelma, a headstrong Saint who, while leading her party of pioneers out of Nauvoo, got lost and ended up in the Tennessee hill country. Trust and companion are sent in to redeem the Thelma's-Way-Saints, whose faith and organization has suffered wonderfully from 150 years of in-breeding and neglect. The adventures are wacky and, well, hilarious. You'll love these novels. Taylor, Curtis, The Dinner Club (Published by the author, 2000); the fast-paced tale of a luke-warm Mormon who becomes a Latter-day Saint by forgiving his straying wife. One of the first LDS novels to be set in contemporary California. Taylor, Samuel W. Heaven Knows Why (1948; Aspen Books, 1994)- still vying for the title of Mormonism's funniest book, this book, by the son of Mormon apostle John W. Taylor and grandson of President John Taylor, has fun with revelation, the Word of Wisdom, and a backsliding Jackson Skinner, as his late grandfather, now an angel assigned to the membership division in the heavenly bureaucracy, gets permission to appear to Jack and frighten him back on course to the Kingdom. It all works out just right, and only Heaven Knows Why. First published in the old Collier's magazine. Smurthwaite, Donald S., Fine Old High Priests (Bookcraft, 1999) is the story of Marcus and Sam, two Latter-day Saints, friends, and neighbors, and how they came to be a pair of "fine old High Priests"; a beautiful, tender, and moving tribute to Latter-day Sainthood; this is a book that everyone should read for a gentle yet powerful spiritual recharge; and his recent sequel, A Wise, Blue Autumn (Bookcraft, 2000) is more of the same; these are, I think, must reads for LDS; my Mormon lit. students think so, too. These books are LDS responses to Tuesdays at Morrie's, only better. Sorensen, Virginia, The Evening and the Morning (1949; Signature, 1999), follows Kate's visit to her Mormon village home in Sanpete County, where she confronts the results of her adultery and flight from Mormonism some twenty years earlier. This is fine novel by a writer of national stature who left the Church to became an Episcopalian. Weyland, Jack, Charly (1980), and Sam (1981) are two of Weyland's many very readable short novels for LDS teenagers centered in meeting and overcoming contemporary challenges. It's easy to get happily hooked on Weyland's well-told and morally well-founded stories. Whipple, Maurine, The Giant Joshua (1941; Western Epics Inc., 1976) one of the finest-and perhaps most controversial-of the novels on the list; the story of the founding of St. George and the life and pioneering hardships of Clory, the fourth wife of Abijah MacIntyre; it is a wonderful and intimate look at life on the Mormon frontier. Some readers don't like its rawboned (and distorted?) picture of life on the Mormon frontier; others see it as inspiring tribute to the Mormon people; one reader wrote to me last month that she became interested in the Church because of this book; old-time St. Georgeans saw the book as a betrayal. It isn't; it is a wonderful read, as Whipple portrays the Mormon settlers of that arid region as "human beings by birth and only saints by adoption." Woolley, David G., Pillar of Fire (Covenant Communications 2000); the first of a projected 7 novels centered in 1 Nephi and The Book of Mormon. Woolley brings the Holy Land alive with rich detail about life in Jerusalem in 601 B.C. This is a solid historical novel. Yorgason, Blaine, Charlie's Monument (1978) and The Windwalker (1979) are best-selling and enduring short novels for young adults, among a number of fine novels, as is The Bishop's Horse Race (12979), by Blaine and Brenton Yorgason. You can't go wrong with any work by the Yorgasons. Young, Margaret, House without Walls (Deseret Book 1990). Recounts the story of a Jewish convert to Mormonism. Young, Margaret Blair and Darius Aidan Gray, One More River to Cross, Book 1 in the Standing on the Promises series (Bookcraft, 2000); the first in a series of historical novels about Elijah Abel, Jane Manning, and several other black Mormon pioneers. Young, Margaret Blair, Salvador (Aspen Books, 1992)-a fine novel about the darkening of idealism among an American family of Latter-day Saints touched by religion gone awry in the jungles of El Salvador. You can find more information about these books on-line, at the websites for LDS publishers; for example, at Covenant Communications' website, there is an interesting list: "Science Fiction and Fantasy Books Published in the LDS Market"; and there is a great deal of information to be found on the "AML List.com," website for the Association for Mormon Letters. Good reading! (Andrew Hall) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 16 May 2001 15:26:09 -0600 Tracie Laulusa wrote: > > But lots of readers really like his books and they sell. Obviously it > doesn't bother everyone. Why should he change if what he is doing works? > Maybe he really enjoys writing that way as well, so doesn't even have a > personal motivation to change. He writes, they buy. It works. Interesting topic of discussion. Shall we invoke the truism, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"? Or shall we invoke the concept of eternal progression? As you can probably tell by the way I worded the issue, I vote for the latter. Notice I didn't say Weyland should change the type of stories he tells (I am quite certain there are people who wish he would). I am suggesting he should learn to write them better. If an amateur painter paints some intriguing works of art that catch people's attention, but he hasn't mastered the skills of a painter, should he really be content with where he's at? Or would it only make his paintings more intriguing to more people if he mastered those skills? Wouldn't that increase his ability to paint things that are powerful? An amateur painter who does it for a hobby needs to decide for himself whether he wants to bother mastering those skills--it's all for fun, after all. But Weyland is no amateur. He has his books professionally published, and expects people to plunk down good money for them. In my opinion, he has a moral obligation to hone his craft as time goes on. If, after twenty years, he still doesn't understand the concept of point of view, something is very wrong. Weyland would only increase his audience and have a more powerful effect on his current audience if he mastered the skills of writing. There's no reason why doing so would turn off his current audience, because I'm not asking him to change the type of story he writes. In my opinion, his audience likes his stories in spite of his writing skills, not because of them. If he told those stories better, everyone would come out a winner. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Favorite Moments in LDS Lit. Date: 16 May 2001 16:47:29 -0600 On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:57:20 -0600 Steve writes: > If I left you in a room with your three favorite pieces of LDS Lit. > and gave you 5-10 min with each title, which scene(s) would > you choose to reread? There has been talk from time to time about the need or desire for a dramatic equivalent in Mormon theatre to "Fiddler On the Roof." I think that has happened with "The Trail of Dreams" by Arrington, Perry and Payne. There are a few moments in the play that do stand out, most notably "The Ballad of Rocky Ridge," but for me, the three or four months I spent rehearsing and performing in that play I consider to be the most worshipful thing I have done in my life. I spent a good amount of time listening and analyzing the piece and finally came to the conclusion that "Trail of Dreams" is as near to perfection as anything I have seen and heard in musical theatre. Not LDS musical theatre, but all musical theatre. I LOVED being in that play. That's the kind of thing, indeed, the very thing, that should be showcased in the Conference Center Theater. I really like Scott Card's _Saints_. That book and Truman Madsen's _Joseph Smith the Prophet_ have done more to increase my understanding and feeling for who and what Joseph Smith, Jr. was than any combination of sermons or lessons I have ever been a party to. Dinah giving up her children for the gospel is a particularly moving scene, and I think epitomizes the level of sacrifice that many Saints have -- and continue -- to make for the Lord's sake. I've been sitting here trying to think of way to say modestly that one of my own plays fits into the category of Favorite Moments in LDS lit, but there's no disguising the absolute hubris of making such a claim, so, modesty be hanged; I really think "Stones" by Scott Bronson is a fine piece of literature for the stage. I think that if it ever gets produced, and if I can get enough people to see it, it will be a seminal event to rival the importance of works like "God's Army" or _The Backslider_ in terms of its potential to be a milestone. Of course, that could be my own little trail of dreams I'm walking. Possibly my favorite moment comes when Joseph lectures his stepson, the young Jesus, about courtesy and respect. In the writing of it I discovered the possibility that living a perfect life doesn't necessarily mean that Christ never made mistakes as he grew and developed, but that he learned perfectly from the mistakes he did make. And never made the same mistake twice once he was taught the right way. J. Scott Bronson Member of Playwrights Circle "An Organization of Professionals" www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: [AML] BECK, _Finding Your Own North Star_ Date: 16 May 2001 19:38:52 -0600 Info. on Martha Beck's "Finding Your Own North Star." http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/081293217X/ref=pd_cart_end_4/102-5914 480-4180966 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Marilyn BROWN, _Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_ (Review) Date: 16 May 2001 16:50:51 -0600 THE WINE-DARK SEA OF GRASS by Marilyn McMeen Brown 2001, Salt Press 393 pages "What Has All the Fuss Been About?" I can't remember the first time I heard about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. But ever since that day, it was always in the context of a shameful act that cast dispersions upon the Church. It's a favorite of anti-Mormon writers and speakers. An uncomfortable hush seems to fall upon any group of Mormons whenever its hyper-alliterative name is mentioned. But I never really knew anything about it. Some Mormons wiped out a company of Missourians traveling through southern Utah--men, women, and children--and it was a bad thing. That's about it. Every so often I'd hear the accusation that Brigham Young ordered it. Bad Brigham Young, bad Mormons, bad Mormon Church--ergo, Mormonism is false. Or something like that. Then I read Marilyn Brown's _Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_. I read it with the anticipation one feels while watching a disaster film like _Poseidon Adventure_ or _Earthquake_: waiting for that calamitous shoe to fall; the earthquake hits, the huge wave tips the ship over, or the evil Mormons massacre the hapless families passing through their midst. After all these years, I wanted to know what happened, why it happened, and what was so terrible about it. I received my answer. I found out what happened. I found out why it happened. And I also found out how terrible it was. It wasn't pretty. It was terribly tragic. But I came away scratching my head. Okay, a dreadful thing happened. A certain atmosphere prevailed, caused by great stress and fear; solutions were debated and planned, based on choosing the least offensive among a pallette of undesirable options; as the solutions were implemented, things went terribly wrong; human beings did the best they could trying to cope, being forced to make split-second, life and death decisions. A cover-up occurred (usually a bad decision), but word leaked out anyway. Of course, the word that leaked out was inaccurate and exaggerated. Those that were involved, especially the leaders, were haunted by what happened, by what they did, and by the vicious rumors that spread about them. All very tragic. Many victims came out of that episode on both sides of the battle. But this sort of thing has been happening with humans since the dawn of time. Why has this event been such a focal point all these decades? I didn't get it. What happened is no big mystery, is over and done with, and those who were involved have suffered. It's really time to put all this behind us. That's the impression I came away with from reading Brown's _Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_. The novel itself is historical fiction in the same vein as the "Work and the Glory" series: real events told from the point of view of the fictional Lorry family. It starts out with a beautiful and tragic symbolic foreshadowing of the massacre itself. The Lorrys are confronted by thieves in the night. Young Jacob Lorry discovers two men slaughtering their cow. They hear a sound and end up killing his dog. He sneaks off, fearing for his life, and runs home to tell his parents, father J.B. and mother Suky. As he does so, they hear a noise outside. The father investigates: "Who goes there?" he called into the gathering dusk. A dark figure stood beside the woodpile, a silhouette, a shapeless form plucking wood into his arms. "I need some of your woodpile to build a fire." "Who are you?" J.B. called out. "Passerby," the dark silhouette said. Now the white of his face was partially visible in the light from the house. "Where you passin' by?" J.B. asked. Jacob recognized the cap, the plaid wool coat. "That's him," he breathed. "That's him, pa." Suky pulled on the arm of J.B.'s coat. "Jacob says that's him! He killed Lil and our dog. And tried to kill Jacob." Her whisper died in the wind. If J.B. heard her, he did not say. "Passin' through to California." "You wouldn't happen to be from Missouri?" There was an empty silence. And then from the white face in the dark, "Now what'd be the reason ye'd ask that?" "Usually it's the Missouris that don't ask for things but just take 'em. There's been innocent people raped and killed."... "Don't see as how I owe you no answers, old man," the visitor snarled. "If you're one of them Danites ransacked Missouri you have a debt to pay longer'n your ass's ears. I don't feel like waitin' for Johnston's army. And I'll just collect here." The man twirled his rifle in his fingers like a walking stick, then raised it into position. "It's him!" Suky screamed. "Shoot, J.B. Or I will. Shoot. He's raising that gun!" The man was calm. He grinned at J.B., whose old "Youger" stood uncocked and out of position under his arm. Suky stood behind J.B. Without warning, she raised the Colt revolver. Slowly, she sighted toward the stranger. Her hands shaking, she pulled the trigger. J.B. turned back toward her, stunned. Jacob saw the blood in the pale face of the man as he slid to the cold grass, the rifle falling out of his hand. They hurriedly bury the body and utter not a word about the incident to anyone. But within the hearts of the family, especially Suky, the troubling deed takes its toll. As the train of settlers from Missouri and Arkansas that the thieves were part of continues on its way to California, coming into conflict with the local Mormons, stealing supplies from them that the Mormons won't sell because of instructions from their leaders, and threatening to return with an army from California to exterminate them, we see the same scene played out on a grander scale. _Wine-Dark_ helps us feel personally the effect of the massacre on real historical figures, like John D. Lee, who becomes the scapegoat for the entire affair, and his family, who become pariahs among Mormon society in southern Utah. It also lets us understand the effect on the community in general using fictional families like the Lorrys as proxies for the real people who lived back then. As an added bonus, the book paints an eye-opening and troubling portrait of daily life among a polygamous people. How strange it feels to have a married father and his son vie for the affections of the same young girl! There would be fodder in here for those who are anti- polygamous, and for those who accept the principle as divinely inspired for those times, reminds us how challenging the commands of God can be. Yet at the same time, we recognize that the failures within the institution of plural marriage are only the failures of human beings imperfectly implementing God's command. We have comparable problems in modern times with our own monogamous relationships. Brown wrote _Wine-Dark_ with a poetic style. She seems to have been more concerned with writing well-crafted literature than with relentlessly realistic moments among the characters, almost as if she were using the voice of a fable-teller rather than a contemporary novelist. This is a matter of personal preference that would not be my first choice--I am a real proponent of story over style--but no doubt her style will please many readers. There were times when I felt like the story was on the verge of bogging down as we dealt with the personal matters of the fictional Lorrys, but before that could quite happen, history picked up again and drew me back into the narration. Endnotes keep us informed chapter-by-chapter on what is historical. This is something I appreciate. It would appear that the endnotes may have gotten lost in the shuffle of a rewrite for the revision I read, because some of them didn't line up correctly with the chapters as they appeared in my copy. Still, it wasn't hard to sort them out. Brown crafted some vivid, memorable characters for us to live with, particularly the anti-hero father J.B., a well-evoked character who is a driving force behind many of the plot turns. Suky, his first wife, lives the guilt of the massacre symbolically for everyone else. Elizabeth, J.B.'s plural wife, plays a major role in illustrating the hardships of polygamy. Maggie, a lost-soul relative, is a wonderful example of a very fallible member of the church who can never seem to make the Gospel work in her life. Hannah stands in as the representative of the slaughtered families of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Then there is John D. Lee, a towering figure of strength and character, admired in the community and in his church calling, adored by women everywhere, enthusiastic practitioner of polygamy. He is a faithful member of the church and disciple of God--he always does what he believes is right, what he understands is required of him by church and God. And loses his priesthood, his church membership, and his life in the process. The story of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, this persistent controversy that has no business persisting, is his story, told by Brown in a quiet, unobtrusive way as she pretends to be telling the story of the Lorry family. I came away from reading _The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_ feeling haunted by those events, sorrowful for the tragedies, the disrupted lives, it caused, and wondering what in the world the fuss has been about all these years. Petty selfishness has been the motivation for making this event a hotbed of antagonistic bickering for decades. It's time to cast off the accusations, the tiresome whitewashing, the demands for apologies, and honor those victims who made hard choices and frightening mistakes in dangerous times as they forged communities in the face of unforgiving nature for us to enjoy in comfort today. _All_ the victims, whether from Missouri or Arkansas or Utah. We dishonor their memory with our bickering. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Higbeejm@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] George MacDonald Date: 17 May 2001 00:13:38 EDT >barbara@techvoice.com writes: > I've been trying to learn more about him, and to find some of his > writing. Perhaps you can point me to some sources. The local library's > holdings don't offer much. Two good places to start online: http://www.george-macdonald.com/ The Golden Key site has links to a discussion forum, an e-mail list, critical essays, publishing houses that specialize in MacDonald reprints, and a whole slew of other useful resources. The e-text section has links to about 60 MacDonald works online--non-fiction, fiction, and poetry. There's plenty there to keep you busy for a while. (www.Abika.com also has 32 MacDonald e-books available. All these e-texts are free of charge.) http://www.gmsociety.org.uk/ The George MacDonald Society home page. The Society publishes an annual journal, North Wind, which includes book reviews, scholarly articles, and information about other publications relevant to MacDonald. Some articles are published online. The Society also publishes a quarterly newsletter. As for print copies, MacDonald's fantasy books are the easiest to come by. Major book chains usually carry _At the Back of the North Wind_, _The Princess and the Goblin_, _The Princess and Curdie_, _The Light Princess_, and _The Golden Key_. They will probably be in the children's section of bookstores. It looks like most of his major works are available for purchase on Amazon.com. And I know the Orem (UT) public library carries a couple of volumes of MacDonald's short stories. I can't actually remember how I stumbled upon MacDonald several years ago. It may have been through a mention in C.S. Lewis, or it may have been that I was in the BYU bookstore one day and picked up a copy of the Maurice Sendak-illustrated edition of _The Light Princess_ just because the cover looked so promising. (Yes, I do sometimes judge books by their covers.) _The Golden Key_ is still my favorite of MacDonald's works (also available with Sendak illustrations). I have used it as an allegory in teaching Sunday school lessons on the plan of salvation, the purpose of mortal life, the restored priesthood, and eternal marriage. It's a simple fairy tale plumbing the depths of wisdom. And it's a good introduction to MacDonald's best writing as well as his recurring spiritual themes. Another excellent introduction is _George MacDonald: An Anthology_, which includes short religiously themed readings collected and edited by C.S. Lewis. A similar volume is _Diary of an Old Soul_, the 366 poetic thoughts MacDonald wrote for daily devotional reflection over the calendar year. In the introduction to his anthology, Lewis says of MacDonald, "I know hardly any other writer who seems closer, or more continually close, to the Spirit of Christ himself." Lewis first read MacDonald's _Phantastes_ as a teenager and credits that book for beginning to turn him from atheism toward Christianity. It is not one of MacDonald's overtly religious works, and not his best literary work; the quality Lewis says he recognized and was moved by was simply "goodness." It's that kind of "goodness" that I think often comes through in our writings as devoted latter-day disciples of Christ, whether our work is overtly religious or identifiably Mormon, or not. MacDonald is worth reading for many reasons, but mostly for that goodness. Janelle Higbee higbeejm@aol.com jhigbee@wordassembly.com www.wordassembly.com "Truth is truth, whether from the lips of Jesus or Balaam." --George MacDonald - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Labute in London: Controversial Mormon Playwright & Director Has New Play: London UK The Observer Date: 16 May 2001 23:07:46 -0500 Has New Play: London UK The Observer 13May01 A2 [From Mormon-News] Labute in London: Controversial Mormon Playwright & Director Has New Play LONDON, ENGLAND -- Mormonism's most controversial playwright and director, Neil LaBute, is in London directing his new play, "The Shape of Things," a look at the darker side of human nature, like the previous films and plays he has written. In Sunday's London Observer Sean O'Hagan interviewed LaBute and wrote about what makes him so controversial and so contradictory. LaBute's latest play, written for the Almeida Theatre where his three-part play about Mormons, Bash, was produced last year, looks at how far a person will go to humiliate another. Set in the contemporary art world, it features an art student whose ambition knows no bounds. LaBute says that the notion sometimes hits close to home, "People talk about their relationships as if they are pursuing a career trajectory - 'Is this a good move? Can I do better?' I wanted to get that all in, and the notion that an artist could exploit not just themselves, but someone else, someone they are close to, in the pursuit of art. I mean, I do it myself to a degree. In the midst of an argument I'm often thinking, 'that's a great line, I could use that.' It's terrible really, but I walk through life thinking, 'Is this a potential scene or character?'. " LaBute's works show this view of human nature, a pessimistic view that can make an audience recoil in horror, or shock them into denial. And it is exactly this message that conflicts so much with LaBute the person. O'Hagan describes him as a bespectacled enthusiastic academic (he once taught drama in Indiana) with "a gentle good humor and impeccable courteousness." But while his demeanor may fit with the stereotype of a Mormon, the conflict with his writings are difficult for some to reconcile, "People assume that because I'm a practicing Mormon there's this Old Testament drive underpinning everything I write. But I don't think Mormonism colors my view of humanity any more than, say, being a man, or being an American. I've always had this rich interest in the basic religious tenets of sin, confession, damnation, whatever." Raised in Liberty Lake, Washington, LaBute loved bible classes but had a contentious relationship with his truck-drive father, who was often absent because of work and who discouraged his writing. He attended BYU and there he thrived on BYU's restrictive environment, soon joining the LDS Church, "I was inundated with all the trappings of the religion and I found it quite comforting. Sometimes I wonder how much my conversion had to do with me being away from home for the first time and was maybe tied to the security I needed at that time. I grapple with that occasionally, but the big stuff I have no real trouble with. There's nothing I like more than the idea of faith. People can study and discuss the nature of it all they like but it just comes down to making that leap. Also, I figure what's the worst case scenario if I'm wrong - that I've lived a relatively good life." But BYU didn't look very favorably on his early plays and school authorities even locked up the theatre to prevent a performance of a play he wrote called "Lepers," which he later adapted into his film, "Friends and Neighbors." LaBute says that he was influenced by the early work of his hero, acclaimed playwright and director David Mamet, especially his groundbreaking, and still controversial, play "Sexual Perversity" and Mike Nichol's film "Carnal Knowledge." "Those were chilling and prescient works when they debuted and they still have a certain timelessness. I always felt I had to go beyond that kind of drama, find something new and unsaid and essentially truthful about our time and the way we behave beneath the veneer of respectability that all of us, to one degree or another, hide behind." And he did just that, making a splash with his low-budget film "In the Company of Men" which won acclaim and pans, including reactions from the Los Angeles Times, which called it "the psychological equivalent of a snuff movie" and from Newsday, which wrote, "you walk away from it feeling as if you've witnessed a rape that you've done nothing to stop." He went on to write "Friends and Neighbors" and "Bash," the most informed by Mormonism of his works. He has also directed, gaining acclaim for last fall's popular film "Nurse Betty." But LaBute says that the script went against his instincts, "I liked working within the constraints of that genre and the studio system. But, that said, my instinct was to have her plane explode at the end. I suppose the fact that she ended up alone and disillusioned with the American dream was enough. I just couldn't have done the pat Hollywood happy ending. It's not in my nature to go along with that big lie that they tell us over and over and that has no correlation in reality." With the upcoming release of the film based on A.S. Byatt's novel, Possession that he directed, LaBute will soon be back in the public eye in the US. In the meantime, he will direct "The Shape of Things," and continue to let the public puzzle over his contradictions. O'Hagan says that where great writers are so often despicable human beings, "Neil LaBute is the opposite: a nice human being who specializes in depicting the often despicable nature of everyday lives. His words are to be savored, even as you choke in disbelief on them." Source: Donny Osmond he ain't London UK The Observer 13May01 A2 http://www.observer.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,489953,00.html By Sean O'Hagan Mormon Neil LaBute may be devoted to God, but the casual brutality of his films suggest a low opinion of humanity. Sean O'Hagan finds out what the director of Nurse Betty plans next. See also: LDS Filmmaker LaBute Shooting New Film http://www.mormonstoday.com/001006/A2LaBute01.shtml 'Nurse Betty' Leads To LaBute Profile in LA Weekly http://www.mormonstoday.com/000910/A2NurseBetty01.shtml LDS Playwright Neil LaBute's 'Bash' on Showtime Tonight http://www.mormonstoday.com/000903/A2LaBute01.shtml LaBute's Bash Opens In Washington DC http://www.mormonstoday.com/000312/A4LaBute01.shtml LaBute's 'Bash' Praised and Criticized in London http://www.mormonstoday.com/000206/A4LaBute01.shtml 'Bash's' Brutality a Shade Too Bitter http://www.mormonstoday.com/991212/A2LaBute01.shtml Winslet may star in controversial LDS playwright's 'Bash' http://www.mormonstoday.com/991010/A2LaBute01.shtml A Filmmaker's Faith in God, if Not in Men http://www.mormonstoday.com/990627/L2LaBute01.shtml People walk-out of new LaBute premeire http://www.mormonstoday.com/990620/L2LaBute01.shtml >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OmahaMom@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 17 May 2001 08:28:08 EDT I doubt that Jack Weyland's books are in the same category as the Work and the Glory series, and maybe they don't qualify as the great American novel...but hey, for light reading (& sometimes not so light reading), I enjoy them. My inactive daughter likes him and reads his stuff, so maybe his messages will touch her heart and she'll have a desire to change her life style a bit. Karen Tippets - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OmahaMom@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 17 May 2001 08:32:19 EDT Can it be that there are some who want us all portrayed much as the somewhat one dimensional characters in Added Upon (which has its place in literature, even if it isn't great stuff)? I don't care what some people do, there will be some who don't like it. If we all liked the same things, we'd all fall in love with the same person, and that WOULD be chaos. Gratefully, it's ok for us to be able to appreciate different things in the world. So the missionaries in God's Army sometimes acted childishly. The spiritual impact was still there in the movie. Alas, which one of us is already perfect in everything we say and do. I'm looking forward to seeing Brigham City, but it hasn't hit Omaha yet. Karen Tippets - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Re: Mormons as Flawed Date: 17 May 2001 07:27:41 -0700 >LauraMaery, an interesting experiment would be to interview a couple of the >strong, faithful people you've observed. What have they gone through? More than I could handle. One, a family member: 1. Her father died when she was about 12, after a very long illness that wore out the entire family and depleted all their resources. They were left completely impoverished. 2. Multiple suicide attempts by her mother, combined with her mother's nervous breakdown and institutionalization. 3. Serious medical problems of her own that prevented pregnancy for years, and then resulted in about six miscarriages. 4. The death of one of her babies shortly after birth. 5. A nearly crippling injury to her husband, which left him unable to work. She had to tend to him round the clock (while caring for her infant children), and so was unable to work...which put the whole family on welfare. 6. The horrifying nervous breakdown of her husband, which left him institutionalized for several weeks, and incapacitated for months. 7. Grinding lifelong poverty. They've finally -- after twenty years of marriage -- just bought their first small home. 8. Several instances of having been swindled by business partners -- a major factor in the poverty during adulthood. 9. Major medical problems with two adopted children, both of whom were born crack addicted. >Do they consider themselves faithful Yes. >or strong? I'm sure she hasn't considered the question. >And after interviewing them, if you were to depict them in fiction or biography, how would you make their characters "round"? I couldn't, because Thom would review it and call me a liar. She is the most cheerful, kind, loving, generous person you could ever imagine. If I were to portray an accurate account of her life, NObody would believe it. (She and her hubby decided a few months back that as a family project, they would compile a family history. She says, laughing, "We started writing things down, and got so depressed we just dropped it.") --lmg --------- WHAT DO WE DO? We homeschool! Here's how: "Homeschool Your Child for Free." Order your copy today, from Amazon.com. --------- . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Donny Osmond Concert Date: 17 May 2001 10:26:59 -0400 This one happened to be in Columbus Ohio. The female half of the morning show on one of the radio stations is a rabid Donny fan. They have had several on the air phone conversations with him. And she hosted the back stage gathering. He really has quite a following in the area. And every one says continually how nice and gracious he is-along with what a great voice he has, and what a fabulous concert it was. Tracie -----Original Message----- Where was this concert? I like Donny's voice, and he's a very nice man. I recently bought a CD of his, mainly because he's Mormon and nice, and found that I really enjoy it. I was thinking, listening to his strong, clear voice, that it must be wonderful to open your mouth to sing and have something that sounds great come out! Not an experience I've ever had. The CD has a cute duet with Donny and Rosemary O'Donnell, which is amusing after their little tiff. Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Public Domain Date: 17 May 2001 10:47:14 -0400 Thanks Bob and Harlow and Thom, At least all this gives me a place to start. I will take it that, at least with Emily Dickinson, you'd have to look at each poem, and when it was first published, and which version and all that. The particular ED collection I have is Collected Poems copyright 1991 by Running Press Book Publishers. The whole question of public domain came up because I am currently investigating writing greeting cards (prostituting myself as a writer as I have heard some refer to it.) One currently popular card form uses a quote on the front with some related sentiment on the inside. You can make up quotes or use quotes or excerpts of poetry in the public domain. (Unless you are Chicken Soup publishing Chicken Soup cards using quotes etc that you already own the copyright to.) I really like poetry, though I'm not a pro like Bob. But true poetry doesn't really cut it as greeting card verse. But it does work as a quote on the front of the card. So.......hence the question, how do you figure out what is in the public domain. Tracie Laulusa - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Cracroft's LDS Classics (Meridian) Date: 17 May 2001 08:53:02 -0600 Interesting that Richard includes Marilyn's book about the Mountain Meadows massacre (which he reviewed so positively in BYU Magazine), but not Bennion, Peterson, or Brady Udall. (No surprise that Brian Evenson isn't there.) Also interesting that he includes one of Michael Fillerup's collections, but not _Visions_. I'm flattered to be included, but very aware that only one of my books which Richard mentions is still in print. (My twin, Marilyn Brown, has written a number of other fine novels which are also out of print.) Anyway, it'd be a daunting task for ANYONE to compile such a list. Richard Cracroft is a good man for it. Gene England's list would be a little different. So would mine. I have a reading list for my creative writing students (who self-direct their assigned reading so they can find the "mentor writers" they respond to personally.) John Bennion, Levi Peterson, Brady Udall, Darrel Spenser, and Walter Kirn are all on the list. To date, of ALL the writers I recommend (which includes Mormon and non), Brady Udall is the one my students get most excited about. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Re: Public Domain Date: 17 May 2001 08:10:13 -0700 >Interestingly enough, I did a search on the Book of Mormon. It is >available as a public domain book. The pre-1923 text itself is in the public domain. More recent edits are not; nor are chapter headers or notes. If you were to scan in your in-your-lifetime edition of the Book of Mormon, and post it to the Web, you'd be in violation of copyright. Like it matters. --lmg --------- WHAT DO WE DO? We homeschool! Here's how: "Homeschool Your Child for Free." Order your copy today, from Amazon.com. --------- . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: Re: [AML] Public Domain Date: 17 May 2001 09:21:24 -0600 >From: harlowclark@juno.com >When was the book published, Tracie? When we did Marden Clark's >_Liberating Form_ back in 1991-2 we included one of ED's poems, and the >book said the same thing, so we wrote to the publisher (Oxford UP? >Harvard UP?) and they wrote back and said that we didn't need permission >as ED's works were in the public domain. I had a similar experience with a poem by Carl Sandburg. The copyright notice indicated 1946, but when I sought permission I was told it was in the public domain. The executor of a literary estate may do this for several reasons: If an earlier version is already in the public domain and permission is not given for a later version, then the requestor will simply use the earlier public domain version and continue publishing an erroneous version. Also, if they don’t give permission the requestor may pass that author by and go to another author, hardly a desirable outcome. Reputable publishers will not want to publish erroneous material, however, so the inevitable tension between the parties begins anew. >The 3-volume variorum ("including variant readings critically compared > >with all known manuscripts," as Thomas >Johnson, ed. _The Complete Poems of Emily Dickinson_ put it) came out in >1955, but wasn't widely accessible, so Johnson brought out a >non-scholarly collection, _Final Harvest_ in 1961. (see p. 1233. >Interesting that ED starts out volume 2, the moderns.) The latest version, which corrects errors in the Johnson edition, is edited by Ralph W. Franklin, director of the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Yale, published by Belknap Press/Harvard University Press. Three volumes, 1650+ pages, and costs $125. regards, Bob Hughes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: Re: [AML] Public Domain Date: 17 May 2001 09:25:10 -0600 >From: Thom Duncan >Interestingly enough, I did a search on the Book of Mormon. It is >available as a public domain book. > But only the earlier versions. The current version, published by the Church, has many changes (as pointed out by many parties) and is under copyright. We can go out and publish our own editions of the BOM based on the public domain versions, but who would buy it? regards, Bob Hughes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 17 May 2001 10:06:25 -0600 Frank Maxwell wrote: > > Thom wrote, in response to LauraMaery: > > > I don't know these people, so you may be right, but may I suggest that, > > if you were to walk a couple of days in their shoes, you may have a > > different opinion, depending, of course, on you definition of "so close > > to sinless." I know a lot of people who appear to be that way, but when > > I've got to know them better, I find them more "human" than I had > > previously thought. Just a couple of anecdotal examples. A BYU > > professor, former mission president, has a "secret" cache of quality > > films, many of them R-rated, many of them foreign films that should be > > R-rated that he regularly enjoys with friends and family. Another, a > > High Councilman, a BYU law professor, outwardly and professionally > > (based on the cases he pursued) a very conservative individual, once > > described his experience as a High Councilman to me (as he cranked up > > Pat Benatar on his car stereo) as pretty much a "Yes-man's:" game, > > describing him and his fellow councilmen as "fawning sycophants." > > I don't understand how the men in these examples are sinning. Or are you > using the word "sin" in an ironic sense? He's being disloyal to the group, considered a sin by many in the Church. > > So the former mission president has some videos of quality R-rated films. > You did say *quality*, right? And he refers to his cache as "secret". > Obviously he's being ironic. But is his collection "secret" because he > thinks he's doing wrong? Or is it "secret" because the whole R-rated movie > issue is so polarized that nobody can talk calmly about it (especially in > Provo, the ground-zero of the Mormon culture wars), and because too many > people in his community are quick to judge and slow to listen? The latter. > And I'm sure we can take the High Councilman's description of being a > "fawning sycophant" at face value. He, too, may have been speaking > ironically. And even if he wasn't, I don't think it's safe to take his > description as definitive of what goes on in his stake's high council. The > dynamics of any small group should not be judged based on one off-hand > comment, but upon the cumulative interactions and impressions of all the > group members over a fair period of time. It was also my stake high council, and my understanding through others was that was exactly how that particular stake ran. > But there's more than one way to make characters "round". One is to show > their little weaknesses in addition to their strengths, as I think you're > suggesting, Thom. The other is to show how the character's strengths were > developed through tribulation, as someone else has suggested. > > LauraMaery, an interesting experiment would be to interview a couple of the > strong, faithful people you've observed. What have they gone through? Years ago, a book was done by a BYU professor (I wish I could remember the title). He interviewed many families identified by their respective Stake Presidents as "ideal" Mormon families. Guess what he found out. These pillars of the stake broke virtually every stereotype we've come to expect from such families. In the majority of cases, for instances, family home evening (as an organized lesson) was rare. By some, films were enjoyed because of their artistic qualities, not because of their ratings. The one thing that was prevalent throughout the survey was that every member of these families were treated as individuals, as people. If the program (e.g., home teaching, early morning scripture study,) didnt' work for a particular family, they replaced it with something else. Sometimes home evening was just activity-oriented. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Losing Our Uniqueness? Date: 17 May 2001 09:27:50 -0700 (PDT) --- Diann T Read wrote: > On Thu, 10 May 2001 22:33:07 -0700 (PDT) William > Morris > writes: > > > My question is: why are Mormon artists painting > > 'normal' portraits of their community? Is it to > reach > > a broader, non-Mormon audience? Is it to show > Mormons > > that they are not as peculiar as they may think? > Is > > it to try and hit both audiences, soften them up > so > > that they get used to the idea of Mormon art? > > > What do you mean by "normal"? It seems to me that > "normality" is > dependent on your worldview, and what's "normal" to > a lifetime member of > the Church, particularly one born and reared in > heavily LDS areas, is > going to be very different from what's "normal" to > non-Mormons. Even > with several years of living in distinctly > non-Mormon environments, > including the military, I'm not sure I can > accurately portray a > non-Mormon community in a manner that a non-Mormon > audience would > consider "normal." So what is a "normal" portrayal > of the Mormon > community by Mormons? There's already been some excellent responses to this discussion, but I'll respond to Diann's, since it specifically asks about "normal" Mormons. Both Thom and I (since my question was a question responding to a question Thom wrote) put quotes around the word "normal" because, I believe, both of us recognize the very point you bring up---that "normal" is a relative term and there are all kinds of Mormons and non-Mormons. The orginal context of this thread was Thom's post about _God's Army_ and _Brigham City_. He noted that in both movies, Dutcher shows that Mormons are normal--missionaries are "normal" young men who like to goof off at times, our sacrament meetings look a lot like other the services other churches hold, etc. So "normal" portrayals of Mormons would be those that show Mormons exhibiting characteristics that many non-Mormons consider to be "normal." Of course, we can ask, well, what does "normal" mean in the secular world? That definition varies, but I think I'd argue that there is a certain spectrum of attitudes and behaviors that a good percentage of Americans exhibit. We could discuss the nature of those characteristics, but right now I'm just going to assume that there would be at least some that most of us could agree on. Or at least we could perhaps agree on what characteristics are seen as being outside the range of "normal." I think "normal" portrayals also have to do with treating Mormons as "normal" in the context of the work. In other words, the text itself naturalizes Mormons instead of pointing at them and saying---look at how strange/unique we/they are. I believe, Scott Parkin and others have called for more of this in our literature---where the Mormon details are there but not central to the drama, not dwelt upon and obsessed over. This question of losing our uniqueness also has to do with the forms of art that we as Mormons engage in as well as our theological beliefs. For instance, 'Jesus as friend' seems to be a kind of Mormon belief that has become more prevelant in the past three decades or so, a belief that is mirrored by many in the fundamentalist Christian world. Or, when it comes to art forms, Mormon popular music borrows much of its sound from mainstream pop music as well as Christian pop music. I think you could also argue that it's a socio-cultural phenomenon. Mormons are more solidly middle-class (lower, middle, and upper-middle----whatever those terms are worth) and are more integrated into the professional, political and corporate communities. With that comes an adoption of some of the beliefs and habits of those communities---is there anything uniquely Mormon about the annual Oakland Stake golf tournament? I don't know, I don't golf, but the fact that one exists cracks me up. I don't really have an answer to the question 'are we losing our uniqueness?' Although, I suspect that we won't--as long as we have a plurality of artists, critics and scholars who are engaging our past, present and future, and, as long as the products of that engagement are finding Mormon audiences. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Cracroft's LDS Classics (Meridian) Date: 17 May 2001 10:58:39 -0600 I'm off the list for a month--we're DRIVING (the old fashioned way on tires) to Boston. Just one farewell note. Such a nice sendoff to see my books on this list. Bravo and gratitude! Also, I am reading Martha Beck and I am SO IMPRESSED! Thank you to the list for all the details you wrote about her work. I think she deserves national attention. I haven't found any anti stuff yet, however. When I finish it I'll write a little something (if I remember). Thank you to the list for EVERYTHING. You are all brilliant, analytical, yet compassionate, cute and swift! Cheers! Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Donny Osmond Concert Date: 17 May 2001 14:33:16 -0400 Donny Osmond was here last night in Cleveland, but I didn't get to go. As my husbanc said, "You got to France." Trust me when I say I would have chosen Donny over France if I had known what I know now. Debbie Brown ----- Original Message ----- > This one happened to be in Columbus Ohio. The female half of the morning > show on one of the radio stations is a rabid Donny fan. They have had > several on the air phone conversations with him. And she hosted the back > stage gathering. He really has quite a following in the area. And every > one says continually how nice and gracious he is-along with what a great > voice he has, and what a fabulous concert it was. > > Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: RE: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 17 May 2001 13:02:37 -0600 (MDT) Quoting Tracie Laulusa : > But lots of readers really like his books and they sell. Obviously it > doesn't bother everyone. Why should he change if what he is doing > works? > Maybe he really enjoys writing that way as well, so doesn't even have > a > personal motivation to change. He writes, they buy. It works. > > Tracie Laulusa I agree with Tracie. Unless they ask for my opinion before they publish it (which they didn't), who am I to say that he wrote it the "wrong" way? Obviously there are many people who think it's just fine. There are some interesting things on Jack Weyland's website (www.jackweyland.com, of course). In an interview quoted in a paper posted there, he even states that he doesn't try to be a great writer and use literary techniques and so forth. He feels that this can get in the way of the story. So he may be aware of more of this sort of thing than we give him credit for. Still, I think he could handle things like the backstories more carefully. If anything, they would call less attention to themselves, thus making his stories run more smoothly. Why doesn't this bother his editors? It's bugged me every single time, including when I read his work as a youth and didn't know exactly what about it bothered me. The man has talent and can tell a good story. I'd really like to read something of his and thoroughly enjoy it, without being able to pick out irritating passages where he takes literary shortcuts that, unfortunately, look just like "something Jack Weyland would do." --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 17 May 2001 13:33:10 -0600 "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" wrote: > > >And after interviewing them, if you were to depict them in fiction or > biography, how would you make their characters "round"? > > I couldn't, because Thom would review it and call me a liar. Not if you wrote about the stuff you just listed. If, on the other hand, you decided that only the good stuff was worth talking about, I would question your sincerity. I am one of those (apparently, in the Church) rare individuals who gets no motivation from the lives of perfect people. OTOH, when I am made aware of their faults, their problems, their pain, and how they overcome that, them I am motivated. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Public Domain Date: 17 May 2001 13:39:07 -0600 bob/bernice hughes wrote: > > >From: Thom Duncan > > >Interestingly enough, I did a search on the Book of Mormon. It is > >available as a public domain book. > > > > But only the earlier versions. The current version, published by the Church, > has many changes (as pointed out by many parties) and is under copyright. We > can go out and publish our own editions of the BOM based on the public > domain versions, but who would buy it? > The Book of Mormon is also published by the RLDS (now Community of Christ) and the Church of Christ, and with the title The Record of the Nephite, by the Church of Christ with the Elijah Message. In each case, they've gone back to original 1830 text as it was first published. A couple of years ago, a fellow was selling a book on the Web called The Bible II, which was an online version of the Book of Mormon pre-copyright text. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] John BENNION, _Falling Toward Heaven_ (Review) Date: 16 May 2001 17:59:39 -0600 FALLING TOWARD HEAVEN by John Bennion 2000, Signature Books Trade paperback, 312 pages $19.95 "A Beautiful Museum Piece; A Literary Golem" At the risk of offending some of the authors whose books I've reviewed in the past few months, I felt upon beginning _Falling Toward Heaven_ that I was at last in the hands of a master wordsmith, an LDS author who had a remarkable command of the English language, which he wields with the apparent effortlessness of an Olympic figure skater gracing the surface of the ice. I have read a number of LDS books whose stories were compelling, riveting, haunting, engrossing, but whose devil-in-the-detail word phrasing bothered me many times. Bennion's mastery of words was a refreshing and welcome change for me. I only found one phrase in the entire book that I wanted to rewrite, and I honestly couldn't tell you what it was now. I wouldn't anyway--why dwell on a tiny defect in the midst of greatness? _Falling Toward Heaven_ is the story of Elder Howard Rockwood, LDS missionary assigned to Houston, Texas. But this isn't a missionary story--he is near the end of his mission, and it won't be long before he's heading home to rural Utah, to his pseudo-apostate mother with imaginative interpretations of the Gospel, and to Belinda, the girl who's waited for him for two years. During this period of trunkiness, at a Fourth of July celebration, he and his straightlaced companion Elder Peterson spot attractive Allison Warren approaching, in Howard's own words, "as if in answer to prayer," taking up an empty spot on the grass next to them in preparation for watching fireworks. With her is her hyper-academic lover Eliot, cheese-and-wine basket in hand, beard on face, and nearly twice her age. They strike up a conversation, and Elder Peterson attempts a Gospel contact as Howard quietly lusts after Allison. >From this beginning, Howard obsesses over Allison as he comes up with more and more excuses to meet her. As his final mission day arrives and he's on his way to the airport, he finally gives in to his obsession, heads for Allison's home, and "falls" in the one way every missionary, mission president, and mother of a missionary dreads. Thus begins a bizarre love relationship that takes the couple from Houston to desolate Rockwood, Utah, to Anchorage, Alaska. Along the way, Howard breaks the heart of his faithful fiancee Belinda, his mother and father, who easily figure out he's lost his virginity, and the whole congregation of Rockwood. But he is a man who cannot escape his love for Allison, and he is determined to marry her. He also cannot escape Rockwood, where his family roots plunge deep, where the family farm of generations is haunted by the ghosts of polygamous patriarchs of the past. But she won't marry, and she refuses to endure the utterly alien culture of rural Mormonism in the inhospitable desert surrounding Rockwood. She lures him to Anchorage, where she has a job offer, and they continue to struggle making their impossible relationship work. _Falling_ is a fascinating character study of the ultimate odd couple, who make Felix and Oscar look like Brother and Sister David O. McKay. Howard is a man trapped by his past and by his religion that he has violated but still clings to with tenacity. Allison is the most masterful evocation I have ever seen of a nonmember who cannot make sense of the Mormon experience, and through her perspective immerses us in the alienness of our own culture. For the first time I truly understood how "peculiar" we look to people. Besides that one trivial awkward phrase, _Falling Toward Heaven_ is a masterwork of literature, and it's gratifying to know that it's _LDS_ literature, proving that LDS literature can measure up to the literature of the world. Except for one glaring defect. The relationship between Howard and Allison makes absolutely no sense. These people should not be together. They know they should not be together. They irritate the bejeebies out of each other. There is literally nothing to base their relationship on. Even the physical attraction they feel for one another wouldn't hold up over time against the pressure of their utter incompatibility. They are in love simply because the author says so, and there is no other justification for their relationship. While I enjoyed reading Bennion's book immensely, it never moved me at a deep, emotional level. It's a marvelous piece of workmanship, but bereft of a foundation to reach the heart. _Falling Toward Heaven_ is a glittering museum piece, carefully preserved within its glass casing. The reader observes it, studies it, admires it, receives intellectual illumination from it, then moves on to the next display, having felt little emotional effect from it. _Falling Toward Heaven_ is a magnificently fashioned literary golem, devoid of soul, with nothing more than the magical force of the author's will to animate it. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 17 May 2001 16:48:02 -0400 You think that he would increase his readership, but I'm not so sure. His books attract a certain kind of reader. Probably young readers-meaning young women age, and women who want a light read-the type who read the lighter romances. They aren't looking at literary skill and any 'improvement' would probably loose as many readers as it gained. I'm not a Weyland fan myself-it's a little sappy for me, though my daughter loves his books. But, he is writing and reaching a sizeable audience. It works. You are free not to buy his books if you think his writing needs that much improvement. Plenty of readers obviously don't agree with you, and buy his books enough for a publisher to keep printing them. Again, why should he 'improve' if he is happy and they are happy. I drove myself almost insane with this 'improve' with music. "If I'm going to play I want to play as well as I can, so I'll put in the time doing scales and intervals.." and on and on. And though I am an amateur, I do play in public and consider myself a professional. If that makes sense. I have so little time to play, and it was becoming a chore and no joy at all. -always a search for a little more speed, a little more this, a little more that. It became a chore. I play well enough for everything I have to play. So when I practice, I pull out what ever music sounds the most appealing to me at the moment and have at it. If I feel like playing some scales I throw those in too. But I don't worry so much about 'improving'. He is in a different situation obviously. As you say, he is being published. But that doesn't force anyone to buy his books. They are free to choose and they choose. Lots of people like his writing just the way it is. He is writing well enough to please the audience he is writing to. He doesn't have a moral obligation to write anything other than what he wants to write. A publisher has chosen to publish it. People are choosing to buy them. It works for them, and no one is asking you to approve, or to pay, or to take your time or anything. Perhaps, maybe, maybe, maybe, if he felt, within his own mind and heart, he was short changing someone by having in print something he wrote, then, maybe, he would be under some kind of moral obligation to change it somehow, maybe. Literary tastes are different from time period to time period, class to class, person to person, and even from one period of time in a person's life to another time in the same person's life. Somehow I don't think his eternal progression hinges on whether he writes according to the current standard of point of view or anything else. Not even his eternal writing progression. I can imagine the scene in heaven, standing before God-I'm sorry, you haven't progressed enough in your writing during mortality. I'll have to take your pen away until you are determined to be more diligent. Tracie Laulusa -----Original Message----- Interesting topic of discussion. Shall we invoke the truism, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"? Or shall we invoke the concept of eternal progression? As you can probably tell by the way I worded the issue, I vote for the latter. Notice I didn't say Weyland should change the type of stories he tells (I am quite certain there are people who wish he would). I am suggesting he should learn to write them better. If an amateur painter paints some intriguing works of art that catch people's attention, but he hasn't mastered the skills of a painter, should he really be content with where he's at? Or would it only make his paintings more intriguing to more people if he mastered those skills? Wouldn't that increase his ability to paint things that are powerful? An amateur painter who does it for a hobby needs to decide for himself whether he wants to bother mastering those skills--it's all for fun, after all. But Weyland is no amateur. He has his books professionally published, and expects people to plunk down good money for them. In my opinion, he has a moral obligation to hone his craft as time goes on. If, after twenty years, he still doesn't understand the concept of point of view, something is very wrong. Weyland would only increase his audience and have a more powerful effect on his current audience if he mastered the skills of writing. There's no reason why doing so would turn off his current audience, because I'm not asking him to change the type of story he writes. In my opinion, his audience likes his stories in spite of his writing skills, not because of them. If he told those stories better, everyone would come out a winner. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 17 May 2001 16:34:34 -0700 Responding to me, Thom wrote: > > I don't understand how the men in these examples are sinning. Or are > > you using the word "sin" in an ironic sense? > > He's being disloyal to the group, considered a sin by many in theChurch. > > > And I'm sure we can take the High Councilman's description of being a > > "fawning sycophant" at face value. He, too, may have been speaking > > ironically. And even if he wasn't, I don't think it's safe to take his > > description as definitive of what goes on in his stake's high council. > > It was also my stake high council, and my understanding through others > was that was exactly how that particular stake ran. I'm sorry to hear that, Thom. I'm also sorry that I was skeptical of your original anecdotes. Hearing this type of thing makes me sad. Especially when I think that things could easily be different, and better. I felt the same way many years ago after talking with a couple of classmates at a community college in California. I was taking an evening course on Gandhi and Martin Luther King. I was 10 years older than most of the other students. In one discussion, a girl referred to the problems she was having with her parents, because of their strong religious beliefs. After we left class, I was concerned, and wanted to offer a listening ear. I went up to her and asked what religion her parents were. She said they were Mormons. When I told her I was a Mormon too, she was very surprised. She hadn't met any Latter-day Saints who were interested in the things we were discussing in class. But I was saddened to know that she had not had positive experiences with the Church. Later in the quarter, I was chatting after class with another girl, who said there were lots of Mormon kids in her high school (in an affluent San Francisco Bay Area city). (In this regard, "lots" might equal only 10 or 20 percent.) But she said that none of them were her friends. The Mormon kids were snobbish, she said, and just hung out with each other. I told her I was sorry to hear that. I was saddened because the LDS kids who had a chance to make a positive impression apparently hadn't. And all I could do was damage control. But I knew what she was talking about, because when I myself had moved to that general area, I'd observed a similar cliqueishness, or exclusivity, in the LDS young adults who were raised there. Of course, these examples are not really on a par with yours, Thom. But they evoke in me the same kind of regret that I feel after reading your examples. (Let me share an addendum to my story: The first girl, the one with LDS parents, was also involved in Central American issues. She helped organize a protest rally against Oliver North when he came to speak at the college. This was not too long after the Senate Iran-Contra hearings. On the day of Oliver North's speech, there were hundreds of demonstrators outside the theater, peacefully protesting and chanting, with monitors making sure that they stayed on their half of the large sidewalk. On the other half of the sidewalk were the people going to the lecture, a predominantly Christian, evangelical crowd, many wearing their Sunday best. I was there that night, too, wearing my Sunday suit and tie. But I was on the demonstrators' side of the line, carrying a placard that said "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness." (Many years later, by chance I saw my friend in a grocery store. We greeted each other warmly. And she still remembered my being at the rally in my church clothes, obviously different from the other protesters, with a verse of scripture on my protest sign. But she thought the verse was "Thou Shalt Not Kill.") Regards, Frank Maxwell P.S. to the Moderator: Hope the anecdotes aren't too off-topic. Can we consider this kind of story-swapping an embryonic form of literature? Perhaps a personal essay in vitro? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Dutcher Joseph Smith Project Date: 17 May 2001 22:07:41 -0700 (PDT) --- "D. Michael Martindale" > I think this project has basically the same > challenges as the > eagerly-awaited "Lord of the Rings" trilogy coming > out soon--if perhaps > to a smaller degree. It's going to be next to > impossible to please the > majority of people (never mind "everybody," which we > all know can't be > pleased), because everyone feels like they own the > Joseph Smith story in > a personal way. I haven't had many strong opinions about the LOTR films because I'm just so excited that they are being made that I can't adopt a proper critical tone, but I do agree with D. Michael about feeling ownership of the Joseph Smith story. So here's my feeling: I think that if I was making the film, I would leave the first vision and the translation of the Book of Mormon alone---I mean, they'd get referenced somehow to set up the opening of the film, but I'd do the bulk of the film from, say, Zion's camp to the martyrdom. I just thing that that part of the story is too iconic to deal with easily. I'm not saying that it's 'too sacred' and shouldn't be portrayed for propriety's sake or anything like that. Perhaps it's because I think that that period of Joseph's life is too firmly pre-conceived in people's minds. But it's not my project. And I too admire Dutcher's hubris. My hope is that other Mormon artists, rather than accepting this version as definitive, take up the challenge and create their versions of the Joseph Smith story (or restage ones that are already out there--like Thom's). Maybe if enough of them are out there then segments of the Mormon audience will be more comfortable with complex, multiple versions of the story. Of course, the 'first one' is often viewed as the definitive one, so Dutcher has a bit of an edge, but still...I look forward to being aroudn when the Peruvian or Filipino dramatist or film-maker comes along and makes one of his or her own. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Public Domain Date: 17 May 2001 22:27:52 -0400 Thom, What a fabulous site. I'll be spending far too much time on it. Tracie -----Original Message----- Tracie Laulusa wrote: > > So, are you saying that pretty much anything before 1923 is 'in the public > domain'? Go out to this site: http://www.gutenberg.net/ and search for any book you may think is in public domain. If they have it, it is. You can also browse if you just want to see what's available. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paynecabin@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Public Domain Date: 17 May 2001 19:16:56 EDT ThomDuncan writes: << I did a search on the Book of Mormon. It is available as a public domain book. >> Some years ago I saw a copy, newly printed, but not by us. It felt odd (or I felt odd). Marvin Payne - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 18 May 2001 01:56:27 -0600 "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" wrote: > If I were to portray an accurate account of her > life, NObody would believe it. Since _Les Miserables_ is one of my all-time favorites, let's explore how Victor Hugo made a superlatively good man believable. Jean Valjean couldn't find any work, and was helplessly watching his sister and her children starve to death. He stole a loaf of bread just to feed them and got caught. He was thrown into prison, a very nasty prison, for five years. He kept trying to escape, with as much success as he had trying to steal bread, and got his sentence extended. Finally, after nineteen years (for just a loaf of bread), he was paroled. But in France of those days, being a paroled convict was tantamount to being a sex offender today--nobody wanted anything to do with him, including employers. Everywhere he went, he was ostracized. Any work he could find paid him a pittance, because he was a convict. He finally begged mercy from a Catholic bishop and was fed and bedded for the night. But in the night, he arose and stole some silver plates and utensils the bishop had stored away for guests. Valjean was caught and returned to the bishop for confirmation that the silver had been stolen. The bishop said the silver was a gift to Valjean, ordered that he be released, then handed him two silver candle holders, saying he had forgotten to take them as well. The bishop told him he had bought his soul with the silver and given it to God. This changed Valjean's bitter heart completely around. He spent the rest of his life trying to live up to the bishop's statement, pleasing God and serving his fellow man. He broke his parole and assumed a new identity so he coould have a fresh start, and years later ended up mayor of a small town that he helped become prosperous. But a police officer named Javert who had been a guard at the prison recognized him as the parole-breaker Valjean. Thus began a lifelong cat and mouse game of Javert hunting Valjean down and Valjean barely keeping ahead of him. An abandoned mother of a young girl, who had to turn to prostitution to support her child, dies, and Valjean unofficially adopts her daughter, Cosette, raising her as his own. Hardly beneficial to him as a fugitive trying to stay ahead of the law. But it's the right thing to do. He hides in a convent, letting the nuns raise Cosette as he works as a gardener for room and board. At one point, a hapless man is arrested and mistaken for Jean Valjean. He is about to be put into prison for life. This becomes as much a turning point for Valjean as the bishop's Christlike kindness to him years ago. Even Javert believes the misidentified prisoner is Valjean. This can be the real Valjean's lucky break--he will not be hunted anymore because the legal system of France will think they have already captured him. He can be a free man at last, no more troubled by his past. Furthermore, the prostitute and her daughter are counting on him to survive. What would happen to Cosette if he went back to prison? He spends an entire night struggling with himself in his own Gethsemane moment. By morning he knows what he must do. He must go to the prisoner's trial and identify himself as the real Valjean, no matter the cost to himself. On the way he runs into transportation problems. It's as if fate is attempting to block his way at every turn to keep him from the trial. He keeps trying all the possibilities he can think of, but when nothing seems to work, he breathes a great sigh of relief. He did all he possibly could to help the man. It wasn't his fault. He could never make it to the trial in time, the man would be convicted and sent to prison, and Valjean would be free. But at the last minute something opens up and he can make it to the town in time for the trial. In spite of this dashing of his hopes, he goes, attends the trial, and makes his fateful announcement. He is going back to prison. Hugo takes a common, decent man faced with insurmountable challenges, has him break the law in an understandable act of desperation, puts him in prison for nineteen miserable years where he becomes angry, embittered, wild, hateful toward mankind. He has Valjean answer an act of charitable kindness from a bishop with a criminal act of theft. Then Hugo gives Valjean the change of heart King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon talks about by having the victimized bishop turn the other cheek in a genuine Christian act of love and give Valjean the silver he had stolen. The first act of kindness Valjean had experienced in two decades, if not longer. This makes Valjean's conversion to a life of sublime goodness believable. But even more believable is, when Valjean is confronted with the greatest challenge to his character, he falters, and comes within a hair's breadth of giving in to the temptation to save himself at the expense of an innocent man. This struggle with the desire to give in lasts all night and well into the next day, even in the act of trying to save the man. Valjean barely brings himself to choose the right path. Valjean continues to make mistakes. In his paranoia as a fugitive, he is overprotective and overbearing toward Cosette. He lies many times to protect himself and her. When she finally marries, he chooses to back out of her life (as if she would ever want that) because he doesn't want his past to sully her future. He becomes a depressed and broken man, all because he assumes she will participate in society's prejudice against his convict history. Hugo created one of the greatest paragons of righteous, Christian living in all of Western literature, yet wisely made him as mortal and fallible as any other man, even as he rises to moral greatness beyond what most men do. Hugo proves to us we can write about extraordinarily good characters and make them believable, and he shows us how to do it--make them extraordinarily good HUMANS, complete with all the fallibility that humans are subject to. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Divinity on Stage Date: 18 May 2001 00:42:40 -0700 On Fri, 11 May 2001 01:56:47 Our esteemed moderator (Hm, we don't have a saying, "Moderater than thou."] > [MOD: I am honestly concerned that we aren't hearing from > those who *are* genuinely bothered by these elements in Richard > Dutcher's films, whether they see that as a personal reaction on > their part or as something that ought not to have been done, > artistically. I also worry, when I hear near unanimity (especially if I agree), about what's not being said. I assume the phrase "these elements" refers to Dutcher's depiction of ordinances, not to the way his characters struggle with their faith. > Perhaps that's simply a reflection of the forum: we're all people > who love literature, and so perhaps we're quite comfortable > with things of this sort appearing in literary genres such as film. Not necessarily, but the reaction to seeing ordinances portrayed dramatically can be complicated, as I suggest below. > In any event, the effect has been to make our discussion rather > one-sided. I would welcome a post from anyone who feels he > or she can accurately report or represent the feelings of those who > *did* feel some discomfort--either artistic or personal--at > including the sacred Mormon elements in either _God's Army_ or > _Brigham City_.] Ok, let me start with a story and see if I can make sense of why someone might feel discomfort or ambivalence at seeing sacred ordinances depicted onstage or onscreen. March 31 we drove out to the airport to pick up Sarah, our niece, coming in from her mission in Ohio. We drove back into town, found a parking place about a block above the conference center, then went over to the Joseph Smith Memorial Hotel to see _The Testaments_. I had seen it before and had the same reactions, for example how gorgeous the scenery is in Spanish Fork canyon, and wishing I could see the sets they built, and wondering whether the actors really believed the things they were portraying. That's an odd thing to wonder about. It doesn't bother me at all when I see Sandoval the Lamanite's speech in _God's Army_ that Luis Robledo is simply acting and not speaking from a grounding in LDS culture. It doesn't bother me, hearing Elder Banks tell about his struggles with the priesthood issue, that Desean Terry is acting, not bearing his testimony. (Ah, the Internet Movie Database http://www.us.imdb.com/, lovely place to get characters' names.) Nor does it bother me, when Elder Allen gains his testimony that it's not a film of Matthew Brown's conversion. (There was a nice piece in the Utah County Journal, "How to be a non-LDS Mormon Missionary," where Brown tells how people assume he's Mormon. "I saw you get an answer to your prayer.") But it does make a difference to me, watching _The Testaments_, whether the people acting the roles really believe the story they're telling, really share the religious commitments of their audience. Why? I think it's because _The Testaments_ is an official production of an evangelical church using the film as part of its evangelizing. (Or maybe it's just the discussions we've had here about how Keith Merrill doesn't use LDS actors, but could and should because we have actors every bit as good as the ones he does use.) It makes a difference when someone states a propagandistic claim--that is a claim designed to propagate an organization--whether that person actually believes what they're saying. Suppose someone, say Cybill Shepard, were to appear in beef commercials then later say on a talk show that she was a vegetarian. That admission affects her own credibility less than it affects the beef council's, since they're the ones who hired her to speak for them. It seems to me that the alternative to believing that hucksters believe the words they're pitching is to believe that everyone who makes a pitch is lying--which has been my reaction to commercials for most of my life. I cringe every time I see those Phillip Morris anti-smoking commercials. >From questioning the sincerity of overtly propagandistic speech and speakers to questioning the sincerity of fictional speech and speakers is not a very big leap, and when you're talking about fiction there's a further problem. Lionel Trilling bases "On the Teaching of Modern Literature," the opening essay of his 1965 book _Beyond Culture_, on the idea that modern literature has a tremendous, anti-institutional, anti-societal force. He wrestled for a long time with how to present such a destructive force to his students and finally decided he would not try to hide either his fear of or commitment to modern literature. This is important because Trilling's ideas and similar ideas have influenced how literature is taught for a half-century, and therefore have influenced how generations of students (and not just literature majors) have been taught to perceive literature and art. I've written in several essays (particularly a long piece called "Lucid Dreaming") about how Trilling's (and others', like Leslie Fiedler's) ideas filter out into the general culture. The filtering means that we approach art with a burden we don't carry through the chapel doors when we approach our ordinances. We don't think of our ordinances as having potentially destructive force in our lives, but as a source of comfort, something Orson Scott Card emphasized in Saintspeak when he defined "sacrament meeting" as "The hour when the Lord receives the tired, the discouraged, the fearful, the ashamed, and gives them hope," rather than giving it a satirical definition, as he does for "sacrament." I was reading Katie Parker's review of _Ashley and Jen_ this morning (5/15/01) and it occurred to me, what if Jack Weyland had included a scene, because it's a bulimia novel, where Ashley purges after taking the sacrament? Imagine the reaction such a scene might get. (Hey, maybe I'll use that in my male anorexia novel.) A different way of stating this: The only expression I know of about our ordinances that combines both the commitment and fear towards them that Lionel Trilling expressed towards modern literature is my mission president's exhortation to make sure the first sacrament meeting we brought our investigators to was not a fast and testimony meeting. Anything can happen in fast and testimony meeting--you might even have a missionary stand up and say, "I don't believe the Gospel is true. (pause) I know it! I know it!" (My companion told me later he wanted to stir the meeting up a bit.)--and in Mormon Lit unscripted church meetings are often the arena where power struggles play themselves out. I'm not sure if any of the scenes in _Lost Boys_ where Step and Deanna confront the ward prophetess are in testimony meeting, but Linda Sillitoe has a power struggle play out among some women in a testimony meeting in one story from _Windows on the Sea_, and Jack Weyland uses a testimony to show racial prejudice in "One of Our Own," (I think that's the title, in Card and Dollahite's _Turning Hearts_.) Weyland also uses the sacrament quite ironically in _Sarah, Whenever I Hear Your Name_. And of course there's the classic laugh-out-loud going over the Aurora Bridge at 1:15 a.m. Sunny Schoodle showdown in Neal Chandler's "Benediction." Michael Ray Solomon's "The Sheet of Our True Lord Jesus" (Sunstone 10:1, 1985) is a tragic story about what people do when they don't know how to conduct an ordinance--specifically, should they let the non-member family of an endowed member view her body, dressed in her temple robes? Margaret Young shows how ordinances affect people and how people effect ordinances in _Love Chains_, particularly in the Hermanos y Hermanas section. Then there are the stories involving women performing ordinances, like Michael Fillerup's "Gifts of the Spirit," Margaret Young's "God on Donahue," Julie Nichols' "The Fifth Element," and "Cat Woman." For me, the first play that made me uncomfortable by fully staging a prayer was Robert Elliott's _Fires of the Mind_, in which 2 elders play out a power struggle in a prayer. Riveting, and very uncomfortable because it used the formal beginning and ending of prayer. Because the prevailing aesthetic of the last 50 years has taught us to see tension between artist and culture, between artwork and culture, we are likely, seeing an ordinance or prayer onstage, onscreen, onpage, to wonder how the author wants us to feel about the ordinance--is there a possibility the author is making fun of something sacred? Questions like this are one reason I've been trying to re-image literary criticism as many things, including a lucid dream. If we can re-image our relation to literary works and what we think they ask of us, we might not fear them as much, or be as uncomfortable. Good night. Harlow S. Clark - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: Re: [AML] Cracroft's LDS Classics (Meridian) Date: 18 May 2001 22:17:57 +0900 Remember that Cracroft said that he was just making a list of novels, not short story collections. He includes Fillerup's _Beyond the River_, which is a novel, but not _Visions_, a short story collection. Also Udall and Spencer have only published short story collections. Also Cracroft said that he wold include Peterson and Bennion novels on a list for AML-list, but not for the Meridian article. I haven't read Bennion's _Falling Towards Heaven_ or Brown's _The Wine Dark Sea of Grass_ yet, but from others it sounds like they fall with _The Backslider_ into that "shockingly appropriate" catagory of Benson's, of strong, meaningful literature which we can embrace, but will not appeal to more sensetive members of the society. On the other hand, I liked many of Kirn and Evenson's short stories, but I thought both of their novels (Thumbsucker and Father of Lies) stank big time. Andrew Hall >From: Margaret Young >Interesting that Richard includes Marilyn's book about the Mountain Meadows >massacre (which he reviewed so positively in BYU Magazine), but not >Bennion, >Peterson, or Brady Udall. (No surprise that Brian Evenson isn't there.) >Also >interesting that he includes one of Michael Fillerup's collections, but not >_Visions_. John Bennion, Levi Peterson, Brady Udall, Darrel Spenser, and >Walter Kirn are all on the list. To date, of ALL the writers I >recommend(which includes Mormon and non), Brady Udall is the one my >students get most excited about. > >[Margaret Young] _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: RE: [AML] Public Domain Date: 18 May 2001 10:07:28 -0600 http://www.centerforthepublicdomain.org/ This is an interesting general resource on issues of public domain, intellectual property, inventions, copyright, and the like. I don't know that it has any specific information on the Emily Dickinson issue, but it certainly is a good primer on established law as it relates to the general issues of the public domain. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Davis Subject: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 18 May 2001 11:05:21 -0700 After reading Kieth Merrill's review of The Other Side of Heaven, in Meridian Magazine, one wonders if the question, "Have you seen The Other Side of Heaven, and have you taken your loved ones to see it?", will be added to to the temple recomend interview. I attended a screening of the film in Hollywood a few months ago. Writer/director Mitch Davis is my nephew and I had the opportunity to read the script and offer my input prior to shooting. He didn't give me a writing credit tho, so I'm a little ticked off at him. Probably I didn't get a credit because he ignored all my suggestions. Anyway, I agree completely with Kieth's glowing recomendation but I do have a problem with something he wrote: "...do not mistake The Other Side of Heaven as having anything at all to do with the recent buzz about "Mormon Cinema." Was that a bit of a cheat shot at Richard Dutcher? Frankly I think he is doing great work. I haven't had the opportunity to see Brigham City yet but it has recieved some terrific reviews. Ampersand, another LDS production company recently made it's appearance with a film about the Martin handcart company, a powerful story, long overdue for the screen. I wish them all well. I'd like to see an LDS comedy, in fact..I think I'll write one. Incidently, I spoke to Mitch about God's Army. He liked it. Gary Davis - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Benson Parkinson" Subject: [AML] Re: Public Domain Date: 18 May 2001 13:35:21 -0600 The Church sued the fellow who posted the Book of Mormon to the web under = a different title, and it's my understanding they asked individual members = who had posted versions with the correct title to take it down. My = impression is they care very much about keeping control of the scriptures. Ben Parkinson >>> lauramaery@writerspost.com 05/17/01 09:10AM >>> The pre-1923 text itself is in the public domain. More recent edits are not; nor are chapter headers or notes. If you were to scan in your in-your-lifetime edition of the Book of Mormon, and post it to the Web, you'd be in violation of copyright. Like it matters.=20 --lmg=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: [AML] Roy CLARK, _Keeping Up Appearances_ Date: 18 May 2001 14:29:06 -0700 Gary mentioning writing a Mormon comedy reminded me of an idea I've been meaning to run by all of you. With all of the British import sitcoms that have had huge success here in the colonies, I know of a great British sitcom that would make a delicious Mormon American sitcom. I'm speaking of _Keeping Up Appearances_, written by Roy Clarke (no, not the American guitar player of Hee-Haw fame). If you have never seen it, let me describe it for you. Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced "Bouquet") is a middle-class, middle-aged woman married to Richard. Richard is a middle manager at a local utility. They live in a nice house, have a nice car, nice furniture, etc. They have a grown son at college--Sheridan. Hyacinth is way off-kilter. She imagines herself some sort of grand lady of the manor and does everything in her power to impress everyone she meets. She is Anglican, of course, the dominate faith in her London suburb. Many of her antics happen at the church, to the dismay of the poor local vicar and his wife. The hook is, that Hyacinth doesn't have middle-class roots. She has relatives that completely embarass her and she does all she can to not claim them publicly. Unfortunately, they keep popping up just when she's working so hard to impress someone of real breeding. Every time I watch it, I howl because I know Hyacinth a hundred times over. What a Mormon she would make! I should tell you a little about the other charcters, because they would be perfect foils for a proper Mormon lady trying to look a little too respectable. Richard Bucket - It was pronounced "bucket" until he married Hyacinth. He's the most longsuffering man you've ever seen. Hyacinth is dedicated to elevating him in the business world. Sheridan Bucket - We never see him, but his "mummy" talks to him on the phone frequently. He usually wants money. He usually wants it to buy flamboyant clothing, and there are hints that he might be gay. Daisy - I don't think we ever know Daisy's last name. She's Hyacinth's sister. (All of Hyacinth's sisters are name for flowers.) Daisy is an overweight devotee of romance novels. She has to read romance novels, because the flame went out of her marriage long ago. She lives in a dumpy house with husband, Anslo, sister, Rose, and Daddy. No one seems to ever keep house. The sofa is full of old beer cans and magazines, under and between the cushions. The front door window is cracked and taped. There's a beat up old car in front, in which dwells the family dog. The front picket gate is only attached at one hinge. Daisy is so warm for Anslo's form that she's always trying to perk his interest. Anslo - Anslo does little more than sit in his easy chair, two feet from the telly, or lie in his bed. He delights in being "bone idle." The television on/off switch doesn't work. They turn it on and off by banging on the top of it. Anslo rarely dresses in more than a sleeveless shirt and pants. He doesn't have a job. We don't know what they live on, probably some kind of income for taking care of Daddy. He routinely turns Daisy's advances away. Rose - Rose is another of Hyacinth's sister. She lives with Anslo and Daisy. She also doesn't work, unless you call her amorous pursuits work. She works very hard at those. She has a different boyfriend every week, is a chain-smoker, and dresses provocatively. None of her boyfriends are single. Daddy - Daddy is a WWII veteran, not in his prime at all. He chases the ladies at the local senior center, and escapes the house quite frequently. He has various manias, reverting back to his wartime days. Violet - Another of Hyacinth's sisters. Violet isn't seen much, but Hyacinth talks about her incessantly. Violet is wealthy, drives a Mercedes and lives in a big house with a sauna and a room for a pony. Bruce - Bruce is Violet's husband. He's got a penchant for wearing women's clothing. He's a turf accountant, which I think is British for grass-seed salesmen or something like that. Elizabeth - Elizabeth is by far my favorite character. She lives next door to the Buckets. She's a truly nice lady, but when she's around Hyacinth she's highly nervous. Elizabeth gets invited over every morning to partake of coffee and biscuits (cookies). Hyacinth is so nerve-wracking in her fastidiousness that Elizabeth insists on drinking from a beaker (plastic mug), rather than risk breaking one of Hyacinths Royal Doulton cups and saucers with the hand-painted perriwinkles. Elizabeth always spills her coffee. You really feel for her. Emmett - Emmett is Elizabeth's brother and lives with her. Elizabeth is married, but her husband travels all the time. Emmett is recently divorced and is a director of a local musical theatre. Of course, every time Hyacinth sees him, she auditions by "singing at" him. He'll do just about anything to not be caught outside when Hyacinth is about. The Vicar - The vicar of the local church is just another of the many people who scurry to hide when Hyacinth comes around. He does his best to be a good Christian shepherd to the flock. Hyancinth always answers the telephone with a rousing, "The Bucket [bou-quet] residence! The lady of the house speaking!" She holds a regular candlelight supper for people she wants to impress, which is anybody. Titled people are her favorite, though. When she rides with Richard, she is an insufferable passenger-seat driver, only the passenger seat is on the other side of the car. Mail carriers and milk deliverers sneak up to the front door to avoid being chewed out for bringing mail with lower quality stamps or delivering the milk in glass bottles that may have been used by lower quality people. Most people must remove their shoes at the front door and she follows them down the hall to make sure they don't brush up against her walls. No matter what Hyacinth does to impress people, her family manages to ruin it. Daddy might disappear and have to be found, or Rose might show up with one of her "gentleman" friends. Everyone tries to avoid or rebuff Hyacinth, but she's oblivious to it all. She's very insistent and the English seem to consider it rude to turn down an invitation. I've seen the reruns about twelve times, and it's still the one television show I try to watch every week. I picture a Mormon Hyacinth-west, living in a suburb of Salt Lake. She invites Elizabeth over for finger sandwiches and herbal tea instead of coffee and biscuits. People at church avoid her, especially the bishop. She politics for Richard to have highly visible callings. Her less-active family shows up frequently whenever she is entertaining. She pressures the Relief Society President to assign her to visit-teach the most notable sisters in the ward. She dominates Enrichment night, even when she's not teaching. Her comments in Gospel Doctrine class manage to be laced with boastings about her husband's job, her candlelight suppers, her wealthy sister Violet, or her studious Sheridan down at the Y who loves his mummy. In private comments to "quality" people, she's appalled at people with less-than-gospel standards, and by coincidence, one of her family members that epitomizes that standard arrives on the scene. It's hard to be Sister Bucket (pronounced bou-quet). _Keeping Up Appearances_ can be seen on many PBS stations. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 18 May 2001 13:48:45 -0600 I'm currently reading Stephen King's _Dreamcatcher_. I'd say a third of it is backstory, but it's not done in such a way as to draw attention to itself. Of course, King has intentionally broken every known law in fiction writing and still manages to sell books in the millions of copies. I'm one of his devoted fans and will be until the Grim Reaper snatches one of us from the planet. I've only read one Weyland book, and it was years ago, so I can't comment on how well he does it. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 18 May 2001 14:12:54 -0600 Gary Davis wrote: > > Anyway, I agree completely with Kieth's glowing recomendation but I do > have a problem with something he wrote: > "...do not mistake The Other Side of Heaven as having anything at all to > do with the recent buzz about "Mormon Cinema." Was that a bit of a > cheat shot at Richard Dutcher? I don't know, but I've grown to value Keith's opinion on art less and less over the years. This is a man who said that the film "In and Out" is a bad film because it promotes the gay lifestyle. Nothing could be farther from the truth. "In and Out" promotes tolerance -- pure and simple. > Frankly I think he is doing great work. Richard is doing marvelous work. He's probably the first LDS filmmaker to realize that making good films doesn't mean you have to write down to your audience. > I > haven't had the opportunity to see Brigham City yet but it has recieved > some terrific reviews. Ampersand, another LDS production company > recently made it's appearance with a film about the Martin handcart > company, a powerful story, long overdue for the screen. I wish them all > well. I'd like to see an LDS comedy, in fact..I think I'll write one. There's not a genre out there that couldn't be dealt with having an LDS slant to it. And by that I mean EVERY genre. _The Graduate_ is, imo, an excellent example of how a disgusting story (an older woman having a affair with a younger man, her daughter's fiance) can be done with elegance and taste. The scene when Mrs. Robinson presents her nude body to Dustin Hoffman's character is a masterpiece of directing and editing. Instead of lingering on her naked body, we instead see Hoffman's shocked face, Mrs. Robinson's face, all intercut very rapidly. We are not allowed to be pruiently tempted: the cuts are too fast. We instead see the result of the seen, through Hoffman's face. IMO, a perfect way for an LDS filmmaker to broach a touchy subject in a non-offensive artistic way. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Marilyn BROWN, _Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_ (Review) Date: 18 May 2001 12:06:29 -0700 > "What Has All the Fuss Been About?" > >I can't remember the first time I heard about the Mountain Meadows >Massacre. But ever since that day, it was always in the context of a >shameful act that cast dispersions upon the Church. It's a favorite of >anti-Mormon writers and speakers. An uncomfortable hush seems to fall >upon any group of Mormons whenever its hyper-alliterative name is >mentioned. It is only because I'm very tired and a little giddy that I ask what the phrase "cast dispersions" means. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Public Domain Date: 18 May 2001 14:39:27 -0600 Benson Parkinson wrote: > > The Church sued the fellow who posted the Book of Mormon to the web under a different title, and it's my understanding they asked individual members who had posted versions with the correct title to take it down. My impression is they care very much about keeping control of the scriptures. > Actually, they threatened to sue, and the publisher caved. The Church has no control over the orginal (1930) text. Only the versification and the notes. Also, any other recent additions. For instance, you could use the original text of the BofM but if you added, "an additional witness to Jesus Christ," you would be breaking copyright. [MOD: I think "1830" is the edition Thom means.] -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: [AML] Copyright and Congress Date: 18 May 2001 21:26:04 -0600 I recently had occasion to speak with Pat Schroeder of the American Association of Publishers. Since most of our problems stem from inadequate copyright laws, I wanted to know why American publishers weren't lobbying Congress for better laws. She told me she was reluctant to open up the copyright issue because she was afraid we would actually lose ground. She says there's tremendous pressure on members of congress to loosen the copyright laws. She cited the recent Napster case as an example of people wanting everything for free. Senators Hatch and Leahy, co-chairs of the Senate judiciary committee, are receiving thousands of emails from people all across the country. If we want to be heard, we have to fight back. Write your senator, send an email, get your friends to write. If we don't make ourselves heard, they may think we don't care. You can reach Senators Hatch and Leahy at the addresses below: Senator Orrin Hatch Senator Patrick Leahy 104 Hart Senate Office Building United States Senate Washington, DC 20510 Washington, DC 20510 202/224-6331 (fax) senator_leahy@leahy.seante.gov senator_hatch@hatch.senate.gov Harold Lowry RWA President Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: [AML] iPublish Contract Date: 18 May 2001 21:20:19 -0600 May 17, 2001 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE TIME WARNER E-BOOK CONTRACT COULD BE BIG MISTAKE FOR FIRST-TIME AUTHORS New York -- The Authors Guild today warned its members that experimenting in digital publishing with Time Warner's new iPublish division presents substantial legal risks and loss of literary rights for little pay. The Guild urged all writers, including new writers not yet eligible for Guild membership, to approach iPublish with extreme caution. Established writers who are merely dabbling in a new medium may find they've inadvertently granted a laundry list of rights to Time Warner and agreed to a bargain-basement advance for print rights to their work. Worse yet, writers surrender rights to their next work as well, agreeing to sell the digital rights to iPublish for advances as low as $25 or less. Writers agree to the terms of this contract by merely submitting their manuscripts to iPublish. "The seductive appeal of e-book publication should not blind authors to the risk involved in the iPublish contract," said Guild president Letty Cottin Pogrebin. "No professional writer or responsible agent would accept terms that call for the author's virtual surrender of basic literary rights, yet with its pitiful advances and Draconian option clause, this contract does just that. The Authors Guild deplores Time Warner's exploitive approach. We strongly advise authors who are interested in digital publication to hold out for a publishing partner who respects their work and a publishing agreement that reflects fundamental standards of fair industry practice." The publishing contract contains several unusual provisions that could prove costly to unwary writers. The terms are among the worst the Authors Guild has seen from a publisher of any size or reputation. For example: 1. WRITERS GRANT BROAD RIGHTS TO iPUBLISH. Writers expecting they are granting merely e-book rights are in for a surprise: Time Warner claims the exclusive rights to any means of delivering digital content, regardless of whether those means have yet been invented. The sweeping definition of digital rights granted includes audio book rights and rights to digitally printed books, such as print-on-demand books. The writer also grants Time Warner an option (discussed below) on the traditional print rights to the work. 2. ROYALTIES ARE LOW. Royalties for e-books are pegged at 25% of net sales (except in the highly unlikely event that the author earns $25,000 from digital media sales). This is a scant amount for e-book royalties, since e-books can be produced at practically no cost. 3. NO ADVANCE IS PAID FOR THE E-BOOK. Time Warner's iPublish is selective in the works it chooses to publish as an e-book. Just as a publisher pays the author an advance when it selectively acquires rights to publish a work in traditional form, so should a publisher pay an advance when it selects a work to publish electronically, especially when the publisher ties up other literary rights as well. 4. PRINT BOOK ADVANCE IS LOCKED IN AT $5,000. Time Warner obtains an exclusive option to publish the work in print form. This option is carefully crafted to assure that the author (a) won't receive more than $5,000 as an advance and (b) won't be able to effectively negotiate a competing bid from another publisher. The advance for print publication is fixed at $5,000, even if the author and Time Warner fail to agree to the other contractual terms. If, on failing to negotiate an agreement with Time Warner, the author goes to another publisher, Time Warner still has the option to obtain the work on the same terms as the other publisher, but never has to pay an advance greater than $5,000. 5. TIME WARNER CONTROLS THE AUTHOR'S NEXT WORK. Regardless of whether Time Warner acquires the print rights to the original work, it has a claim on the author's next work. It can acquire those rights by exercising an option equal to the proceeds the author earns for the first work. A creative writing student, for example, who uses Time Warner's iPublish to publish a collection of short stories which are bought by a few classmates and friends, earning the author $25 in royalties, would find that Time Warner has a $25 option to the author's next work, which could be a best-selling first novel or memoir. If Time Warner chooses to put that work into print form, it could do so and be assured that its advance payment won't exceed $5,000. 6. AUTHORS COULD BE FORCED TO PAY TIME WARNER FOR SPECIOUS CLAIMS. If anyone makes a claim that an author's work is libelous or invades privacy, regardless of the merits of that claim, Time Warner has the right to settle the claim without the author's approval and charge the author for the settlement amount and Time Warner's legal fees. There is no provision for insuring the author against such claims, as is generally included in traditional publishing contracts. While iPublish provides a link to this contract on its Web site, the site otherwise makes little mention of the extensive rights and options writers grant to Time Warner by submitting their manuscripts. The Guild believes there are serious legal questions as to whether writers may license exclusive rights to a publisher merely by submitting a manuscript for review. Even a broad grant of nonexclusive rights, however, would effectively block authors from licensing most of those rights elsewhere. Writers seeking more information may contact the Guilds legal services department at staff@authorsguild.org or 212-563-5904. ================= Since this is a press release permission is granted to forward. Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Church's Copyright Project (was: Public Domain) Date: 21 May 2001 12:08:17 -0500 Someone (I've lost track of who) wrote: >What makes ED a special case is that unpublished material is not >necessarily in the public domain (which is why Willa Cather's letter >> remain unpublished, per her will) and a scholar who published a >> I have an acquaintance who works extensively with Mormon history and archives, who pointed out to me some interesting implications of copyright law as they apply to private manuscript collections. Apparently, as of 1 January 2003, any unpublished material held by archives since at least 1973 enters the public domain. (On 1 January 2004, materials held since 1974 enter the public domain, and so on.) This affects the Church every bit as much as it does university archives and the special collections of all other private and public institutions. After that date the only way for the Church--or Willa Cather's executors, or the holders of any other covered materials--to prevent publication is to deny access and hope that they haven't previously given access to anyone who has photocopied or transcribed the documents. Apparently, because the Church feels strongly about maintaining some control over the key documents of our history and the sacred contents of some of them, there is now a push in place to "publish" as many of the Church Archives as possible on limited-edition, high-quality CDs, with indexes of images, title pages, etc. Short lists of absolutely critical documents, and long lists of desirable documents, have been compiled--millions of potential images. The project is so massive that no attempt is being made to publish the papers of ordinary 19th century Church members (pioneer diaries, correspondence, and photographs)--it is more essential that documents from the Joseph Smith period, the Brigham Young papers, and three million patriarchal blessings be protected by copyright. It sounds like an enormous effort. I assume that the same law affects literary materials as well as ecclesiastical documents. Apparently, the intent of the changes to the copyright law was to promote the publication or availability of archival materials. So beginning in 2003, we may see a great outpouring of previously unavailable literary materials, both LDS-related and general, as scholars take advantage of collections that have not been protected as the Church is attempting to protect its collection. My friend also commented that many people assume that if a scholar is permitted to publish an archival manuscript, the scholar copyrights that manuscript. This is not necessarily true. As many institutions (including, apparently, the LDS Church) handle it, the owner may grant permission for a scholar to use a document while maintaining ownership and copyright over the document. In this case, he scholar owns copyright only to his or her editing, commentary, judgments in transcription, etc. In cases like this, the scholar also isn't the only one who can print the basic document; rather, the copyright holder maintains that right and may grant permission to others. Interesting stuff. Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 18 May 2001 18:37:12 EDT In a message dated 5/18/01 4:12:42 PM Central Daylight Time, ThomDuncan@prodigy.net writes: << I am one of those (apparently, in the Church) rare individuals who gets no motivation from the lives of perfect people. OTOH, when I am made aware of their faults, their problems, their pain, and how they overcome that, them I am motivated. >> Now I know why I missed AML so much. It was Thom speaking so much for me. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Stringer Subject: Re: [AML] Roy CLARK, _Keeping Up Appearances_ Date: 18 May 2001 16:16:43 -0600 >Bruce - Bruce is Violet's husband. He's got a penchant for wearing women's >clothing. He's a turf accountant, which I think is British for grass-seed >salesmen or something like that. Actually it is British for "bookmaker" as in one who determines odds and receives and pays off bets. Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] Roy CLARK, _Keeping Up Appearances_ Date: 18 May 2001 16:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Maybe I'm giving too much away but I have an aunt and uncle (faithful LDS; he's a patriarch and she's the stake music director) who are frighteningly similar to Hyacinth and Richard. He discovered "Keeping Up Appearances" and now occasionally refers to my aunt as "Hyacinth". Three cheers for the British comedies on KUED-TV. Seems unlikely they would ever be shown on KBYU... R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: [AML] Casting Dispersions (was: Marilyn BROWN, _Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_) Date: 18 May 2001 16:29:55 -0700 (PDT) --- Jeff Needle wrote: > > > "What Has All the Fuss Been About?" > > > >I can't remember the first time I heard about the > Mountain Meadows > >Massacre. But ever since that day, it was always in > the context of a > >shameful act that cast dispersions upon the Church. > It's a favorite of > >anti-Mormon writers and speakers. An uncomfortable > hush seems to fall > >upon any group of Mormons whenever its > hyper-alliterative name is > >mentioned. > > > It is only because I'm very tired and a little giddy > that I ask what the > phrase "cast dispersions" means. Well, I'm no linguist but according to the OED, to cast is to "plaster or daub," and a disperion is a "type of intimate mixture in which one substance is present in a large number of separate small regions distributed throughout another, continuous, substance; examples are emulsions (one liquid in another) and AEROSOLS (a solid or a liquid in a gas). [bold mine]" So my guess is that it has something to do with 'tagging' or other forms of graffiti. I was not aware that the Anti-Mormon crowd had become so urban and hip in their smear tactics. What 'hood do most of them represent? Do they all have their own tagger sigs? [Anti-M, korihorjr, M=M (Mormon=Mason)] ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Bestsellers: Behind the Smile Expands, Standing for Something Drops: Kent Larsen Date: 18 May 2001 20:28:35 -0500 Drops: Kent Larsen 17May01 A4 [From Mormon-News] Bestsellers: Behind the Smile Expands, Standing for Something Drops NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- While Marie Osmond's "Behind the Smile dropped off the Barnes & Noble 100, it joined four other lists, including Amazon.com's and the New York Times' Hardcover Non-fiction titles , as well as the Wall Street Journal's Nonfiction titles. Meanwhile, President Gordon B. Hinckley's Standing for Something dropped out of first place on the LDS bestseller list to number three, while the lower end of the list changed dramatically. In addition to Osmond's book, Stephen R. Covey's "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" also appeared back on a number of lists, showing an overall weakness on the lists. On the LDS Bestseller list, the most dramatic rise was "Mothers of the Prophets," which jumped from #8 to #2, probably on a surge in sales of the title for last week's Mother's day holiday. The current titles on US National bestseller lists are: Nothing Like it in the World, by Stephen Ambrose A history of the building of the transcontinental railroad in the US. Ambrose, a highly regarded historian, details the involvement of Mormons in building crucial portions of the road, including the driving of the "golden spike" in the heart of Mormon territory. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 25 28 Barnes & Noble (May 17) Top 100 17 34 New York Times (May 20) Non-Fiction Hardcover [Independents - 3] The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen R. Covey This ten-year-old personal management classic is still selling strongly. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 89 - Amazon.com (May 17) Top 100 23 11 Amazon.com (May 17) Non-Fiction Paperback 62 69 Barnes & Noble Top (May 17) Top 100 13 - New York Times (May 20) Paperback Advice 148 120 USA Today (May 17) 4 4 Wall Street Journal (May 11) Business Behind the Smile: My Journey Out of Postpartum Depression, by Marie Osmond with Marcia Wilkie and Judith Moore Osmond's tale of how she survived and learned to deal with postpartum depression. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 13 - Amazon.com (May 17) Non-Fiction Hardcover 9 - New York Times (May 20) Non-Fiction Hardcover [Chains - 4] 121 88 USA Today (May 17) 11 - Wall Street Journal (May 11) Nonfiction Bestsellers in LDS Bookstores: This Last Title 1 2 The First 100 Temples by Chad S. Hawkins Deseret Book 2 8 Mothers of the Prophets (Revised Edition) by Leonard J. Arrington and Susan Arrington Madsen Deseret Book 3 1 Standing for Something: 10 Neglected Virtues That Will Heal Our Hearts and Homes by Gordon B. Hinckley Three Rivers Pr 4 3 Expressions of Faith by Greg Olsen Deseret Book 5 10 Arise and Shine Forth: Talks from the 2000 Women's Conference Deseret Book 6 6 Legacy of Love by Lucile Johnson and Joann Jolley Covenant Communications 7 7 Women of Destiny (CD) Deseret Book 8 5 Walking in the Light of the Lord by President Gordon B. Hinckley Deseret Book 9 12 The Possible Dream (BYU Women's Conference Talk on Cassette) by Smoot, Mary Ellen Deseret Book 10 4 The Promise of Discipleship by Neal A. Maxwell Deseret Book 11 - A Quiet Heart by Patricia T. Holland Deseret Book 12 - Hearts in Hiding by Betsy Brannon Green Deseret Book 13 - Arise and Shine Forth (CD) Deseret Book 14 10 The Message by Lance Richardson American Family Publishing/Origin Book Sales 15* 8 Latter-Day History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Edited by Brian Kelley and Petrea Kelley Covenant Communications 15* - The Kingdom and the Crown by Gerald N. Lund Shadow Mountain * Indicates tie LDS Books rankings reflect sales rankings at approximately 50 LDS bookstores, generally in the Western United States. Mormon News is actively seeking to expand both the quality of these rankings and the number of stores participating. Bookstores and other vendors of LDS books are urged to contact Mormon News at editor@mormonstoday.com to participate. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: [AML] Barnes & Noble Writing Workshops Date: 18 May 2001 21:28:27 -0600 [MOD: The following message was forwarded to us by Barbara Hume.] >Subject: [RWAalert] Writer’s Digest Books and Barns & Noble > >Harold asked me to post the following information. > >Claudia >RWAlink listowner > >Permission is granted to forward this to RWAlink chapters and members. >====================== > >On October 4, 2001, 7:00 PM, Writer’s Digest Books will be hosting the >second annual World’s Largest Writing Workshop at all Barnes & Noble >stores across the country. Last year, thousands of writers gathered at >over 500 stores to share their work, concerns, and their knowledge. > > We are currently looking for authors with books currently in print to >volunteer as workshop leaders in their local Barnes & Noble stores. >Taking part on this nationally publicized event gives you the chance to >sign and sell your books, promote your writing program or association, >and help start writing groups in your community. > > The general framework for the event is a talk, given by you, on your >writing area of expertise, a signing of your work, and then an open mike >for the attendees. Plenty of materials will be provided to the stores >for on-site, creative exercises. This framework may change from store to >store. > > If you are unable to lead a workshop, we do hope you will join us on >October 4th as a participant. > > For more information on leading a workshop, contact Mary Poggione at >Writer’s Digest Books, at 1-800-289-0963, ext. 272 or e-mail me at >wlww@fwpubs.com. Please include your name, e-mail, address, phone, your >books, the topic about which you would speak, and any other comments or >questions. Your personal information will only be used in connection >with this event and only with your permission. > > > > >Community email addresses: > Post message: RWAalert@onelist.com > Subscribe: RWAalert-subscribe@onelist.com > Unsubscribe: RWAalert-unsubscribe@onelist.com > List owner: RWAalert-owner@onelist.com > >Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/RWAalert > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 18 May 2001 21:36:54 -0600 >_The Graduate_ is, imo, an excellent example of how a disgusting story >(an older woman having a affair with a younger man, her daughter's >fiance) can be done with elegance and taste. Thom, would it be a disgusting story if it were about an older man having an affair with a young woman? Or would that be "perfectly normal"? barbara hume Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 19 May 2001 00:48:41 -0600 katie@aros.net wrote: > In an interview quoted in a paper posted > there, he even states that he doesn't try to be a great writer and use literary > techniques and so forth. He feels that this can get in the way of the story. > So he may be aware of more of this sort of thing than we give him credit for. Sorry, but that sounds like a cop out to me (and I am at your mercy assuming that you've passed on the intent of his quote correctly). Am I to honestly believe that all the great writers who developed literary techniques over the centuries were working hard to develop something that would make their stories worse? If Jack Weyland really believes what this quote attributes to him, then he doesn't understand literary techniques. How would you like to overhear your doctor say, "I just think those surgical techniques they taught me in medical school get in the way of the operation"? Those literary techniques are the tools of the trade. If Jack doesn't want to use the tools of the trade, why is he in the trade? Frankly, I consider that attitude to be an insult to all writers who struggle to master the tools of their trade. > Still, I think he could handle things like the backstories more carefully. If > anything, they would call less attention to themselves, thus making his stories > run more smoothly. Why doesn't this bother his editors? It's bugged me every > single time, including when I read his work as a youth and didn't know exactly > what about it bothered me. The man has talent and can tell a good story. I'd > really like to read something of his and thoroughly enjoy it, without being > able to pick out irritating passages where he takes literary shortcuts that, > unfortunately, look just like "something Jack Weyland would do." You are proving my point, Katie. I'm not asking Jack Weyland to stop being Jack Weyland. I'm asking him to be a better Jack Weyland with the more experience he gets. No one is impressed with somebody who does the same thing year after year and never improves. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 19 May 2001 01:04:49 -0600 Thom Duncan wrote: > I am one of those (apparently, in the Church) rare individuals who gets > no motivation from the lives of perfect people. OTOH, when I am made > aware of their faults, their problems, their pain, and how they overcome > that, them I am motivated. Here here! I can admire a perfect person. I can't learn a great deal from him how to overcome my own weaknesses. How about if we remember that there has been only one perfect person, all recent assertions on this list to the contrary notwithstanding. Christ stands as a model of what the perfect person is like. It's good to have that model so we know what we are sriving for--we have an idea in what direction the final destination is. But when drug addicts want to escape their chains, who do they turn to? The near-perfect Mormon who does everything right, or the former addict who has successfully kicked the habit? When an alcoholic finally admits to himself he has a problem, where does he find the instructions and the motivation to overcome his disease? In the speeches of testimony meeting? Or the speeches of recovering alcoholics at an AA meeting? Do I find encouragement in the life of a Mormon who seems to have been born righteous, following every little bit of the Gospel like falling off a log? Or the member of the church who has struggled against temptation and succeeded, or failed, then recovered through repentance? The former I cannot duplicate, because I don't know how he's doing it. The latter's life is a textbook on how to do it, teaching by example. Frankly, I don't believe the former exists. I believe every "effortlessly" righteous life is a life with unseen tribulations that brought that person to that level of goodness. I think the argument we're having about this stems from people thinking that, because we want to see fallible characters in our fiction, we're celebrating the sinner. Not so. We're celebrating the struggle to overcome weakness and partake of the healing power of the atonement. Every human being but Jesus must deal with that struggle--it's universal. So why shouldn't it appear universally in our literature? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 21 May 2001 13:22:34 EDT FEMALE WRITER WANTED. We (Zion Films / Excel Entertainment) are looking for a female, returned missionary writer to do a spin off novelization of "God's Army". Please me call ASAP 344-8764. Thanks! Emily Pearson Managing Director Zion Films - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Dutcher Joseph Smith Project Date: 19 May 2001 01:19:21 -0600 William Morris wrote: > I think that if I was making the film, I would leave > the first vision and the translation of the Book of > Mormon alone---I mean, they'd get referenced somehow > to set up the opening of the film, but I'd do the bulk > of the film from, say, Zion's camp to the martyrdom. > I just thing that that part of the story is too iconic > to deal with easily. I'm not saying that it's 'too > sacred' and shouldn't be portrayed for propriety's > sake or anything like that. Perhaps it's because I > think that that period of Joseph's life is too firmly > pre-conceived in people's minds. I'm just the opposite. I'd rather concentrate on the beginnings, the iconic stories, precisely because people have firmly preconceived notions about them. I'd like to make them less iconic and remind people that they were real events that really happened. Which probably means people would accuse me of treating them irreverently, because I didn't depict them "iconically." -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 19 May 2001 08:06:55 -0700 Thom Duncan wrote of Kieth Merrill: >This is a man who said that the film "In and Out" is bad because it promotes the gay lifestyle. Nothing could be further from the truth.< Oh pleeeze! Anyone who doesn't recognize that Hollywood has a big time gay agenda is simply not paying attention. Check out "Victor Victoria", "My Best Friend's Wedding", "Big Daddy" or any of a dozen TV shows this past season with major gay characters. Plain and simple, they assault our values at every turn. That's precisely why we need people like Mitch Davis and Richard Dutcher. Gary Davis - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 19 May 2001 11:34:05 -0600 Apparently no one needs to! We can't keep a Weyland book on the shelves of our classrooms and libraries at the junior high. probably 3/4 of my girls read at least one Weyland book each term. Kids don't care about P.O.V. , styles, etc. They just want a good story. "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > Although it sounds > like Weyland has made some progress by the way you describe his handling > of bulemia, it's also apparent that he has made no progress in other > areas since those early short stories. Why has no one pulled him aside > and told him about point of view or the handling of exposition and > backstory yet? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: [AML] Apology Date: 19 May 2001 12:33:56 -0600 Both Andrew Hall and Richard Cracroft have drawn my attention to my glaring error. I had not picked up on the fact that Richard was reviewing only novels in his _Meridian_ list,, not short story collections. The truth is, I read my e-mail extremely fast these days, because my main focus is trying to finish writing a huge book. I'm feeling really bad about my cursory understanding of what Richard's objective was, but even worse about my own rather arrogant and unappreciative tone. Richard is truly a gift to Mormon letters. He and Neal Lambert were the initiators, in my thinking, of contemporary Mormon literary criticism when they published _22 Mormon Writers_. He is one of the three most important Mormon critics today, I believe, and his list is really quite remarkable. Can you imagine one man knowing so many works of Mormon literature well enough to be able to compile such a list? (All right, Jeff Needle could probably do it too.) Anyway, I have become convinced that I'm rushing through the list's posts too fast to be able to give really thoughtful responses, and so will likely hold off until volume 2 of the trilogy is finished. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Re: Public Domain Date: 19 May 2001 13:51:51 -0700 >The Church sued the fellow who posted the Book of Mormon to the web under >a different title, Yes, I'm quite familiar with that whole brouhaha. He posted not an out-of-copyright edition, but rather a recent edition, one that incorporated all the headers written by BRM. The guy wasn't LDS -- in fact, knew little about the Church and had no interest whatsoever in it -- but republished the BOM under the title "The Bible II" or some such thing. He was quite provoked about being hit with the legal machine. The entire situation was amusing. --lmg --------- WHAT DO WE DO? We homeschool! Here's how: "Homeschool Your Child for Free." Order your copy today, from Amazon.com. --------- . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 19 May 2001 17:02:17 -0600 On Thu, 17 May 2001 16:34:34 -0700, Frank Maxwell wrote: >Later in the quarter, I was chatting after class with another girl, who >said there were lots of Mormon kids in her high school (in an affluent = San >Francisco Bay Area city). (In this regard, "lots" might equal only 10 = or >20 percent.) But she said that none of them were her friends. The = Mormon >kids were snobbish, she said, and just hung out with each other. I told >her I was sorry to hear that. I was saddened because the LDS kids who = had >a chance to make a positive impression apparently hadn't. And all I = could >do was damage control. But I knew what she was talking about, because = when >I myself had moved to that general area, I'd observed a similar >cliqueishness, or exclusivity, in the LDS young adults who were raised >there. I'd be a little careful about calling our youth cliquish. I'm not = doubting that it can happen, but from my experience, a High Schooler's = "standoffish" tends to equate with "doesn't go to our parties" and "isn't participating= in our activities". In my High School, the LDS members weren't considered standoffish. I was. The other LDS members went to the parties and participated in the "activities". They were friends with each other as = well as friends with others. But they weren't friends with me. Because I was "standoffish". Which is to say, I wouldn't drink alcohol. And I = wouldn't fool around. And I wouldn't sneak out after curfew (well, except for = prom night which turned out alright but probably shouldn't have). Many activities deemed appropriate by teen peers are directly counter to gospel standards. Not hanging out with people who drink alcohol can = equal, in many High Schools, not hanging out with non-members. Which strikes = many non-members as, well, holier-than-thou and too-good-for-you and cliquish = and any number of other adjectives designed to make sinning people feel = better about what they are doing. Personally, I'd just as soon have my children be considered cliquish than have them hanging out with certain types of other kids. Not that they should only hang out with Mormons, but they should certainly be hanging = out only with good kids with strong moral standards who won't pressure them = to drink, see bad movies, or engage in inappropriate physical relationships. Unfortunately, that standard could easily translate to "only hanging out with Mormons"--a circumstance I will not blame my children for. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: [AML] Jack WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ Date: 20 May 2001 15:45:59 -0600 (MDT) > > I was reading Katie Parker's review of _Ashley and Jen_ this morning > (5/15/01) and it occurred to me, what if Jack Weyland had included a > scene, because it's a bulimia novel, where Ashley purges after taking > the > sacrament? Imagine the reaction such a scene might get. (Hey, maybe > I'll > use that in my male anorexia novel.) > Actually there is a sacrament scene in _Ashley and Jen_(pp. 129-130): <<<<< They were singing the sacrament hymn, but she didn't sing. She didn't feel like singing because she didn't like the sound of her own voice. *I'm doing so good,* she thought. (refers to her not having eaten anything yet today) She closed her eyes for the sacrament prayer. (words of the blessing on the bread are quoted here) She said "amen" along with her roommates and then continued her train of thought. *What will I do after church? I'll be so hungry by then. And the girls will want me to eat with them...I could pretend like I was taking a nap, but they might wake me up when it was time to eat, but I could say I was too tired to eat then. That might do it. And then I could wait until everyone's gone and then I could drive out in the country and have the brownies I put in the trunk yesterday.* (she likes to binge and purge alone in the country so no one knows about it) *That's what I'll do.* She smiled. *I'm doing so good.* The bread came to her. She put a tiny piece in her mouth, but a short time later she brought a tissue to her nose with both hands and got rid of the bread into the tissue. *I'm doing so good,* she thought. >>>>> It's interesting that you bring this up. When I first read this, my reaction was more along the lines of "Poor girl. She's so messed up she doesn't even appreciate the sacrament anymore" rather than of being outraged at the possible meaning behind her gesture of spitting out the sacrament bread. It's obvious to me that she didn't mean it in a blasphemous way. It also never crossed my mind that Jack Weyland could be promoting this other meaning. I would be somewhat surprised to hear of anyone offended by this scene in the book; it seems obvious to me what the author's intent is. ('course, there's always someone...) But if it were made into a movie, that might be different. Again, they'd have to show at least part of the ordinance, and maybe that's what makes the difference for a lot of people. Also, they'd have to somehow show Ashley actually spitting the bread out, which would be a gruesome addition. Maybe it could be done more delicately, as Weyland did. But if they wanted to show it in a way that left no room for doubt as to what she did, an easy way would be to show her not chewing after she takes the bread, and then spitting into a trash can or something later on. It could give the whole scene a different feel. At any rate, without a voice- over to tell Ashley's thoughts during this time, the meaning of her actions would be less obvious. On the other hand, if this scene were taken in context with the rest of the show, you'd think it wouldn't be that hard to figure out... --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 20 May 2001 16:10:35 -0600 (MDT) Quoting Thom Duncan : > > I'm currently reading Stephen King's _Dreamcatcher_. I'd say a third > of > it is backstory, but it's not done in such a way as to draw attention > to > itself. Of course, King has intentionally broken every known law in > fiction writing and still manages to sell books in the millions of > copies. I'm one of his devoted fans and will be until the Grim Reaper > snatches one of us from the planet. > > I've only read one Weyland book, and it was years ago, so I can't > comment on how well he does it. > And I haven't read any King, but here's one instance in _Ashley and Jen_ that bugged me (pp.54-55): <<<<< (Ashley and Jen are sitting in sacrament meeting keeping themselves entertained instead of listening to the talks.) Jen...turned the program over and made a list of boys their age in the ward, drew a column, put a heading on it, "Hot or Not?" The first name on the list was Nathan Billingsley. Ashley shook her head and wrote "Not." Nathan was their same age, the youngest child in a large family... He had been born long after all the other children, and it had been like he had grown up without any brothers and sisters. Nathan had gone through middle school and high school being made fun of by others. It wasn't totally his fault. His mother set him up for it. In seventh grade, she was told by a choir teacher that Nathan could sing better than any boy his age. Thinking he had the potential to be an opera singer, she poured her energies into helping him achieve her goal...(and the next page is a complete discourse on Nathan's life and how he ended up as such a geek. The bottom line is that once he sang soprano in high school choir and never heard the end of it.) >>>>> It's heavy-handed, and apparently not even told from Ashley's point of view. The scene where Nathan sang soprano is even shown, but there is no indication that Ashley was actually there when it happened (thus explaining her ability to tell us the scene), or precisely how much she knows or why she knows it. There is also more background concerning his mother, and more details about choir such as the fact that Nathan sat between two football players who bugged him, and so forth. There is no reason why Ashley would have known any of this or even cared about it. All she would know is that everyone thinks he's a geek, and maybe that he sings too much and sang soprano once in choir. That's all *we* need to know, is her perception of him and reasons why *she* feels that way. If, for some reason she is really aware of these details, how does she know them? Did Nathan confide in her? Was she friends with someone in choir? Did she overhear Nathan's mother talking to her mother and bragging about his wonderful singing abilities? These missing elements could provide more depth to the story and to her relationship with Nathan later on. Well, the short answer here is, this entire page was not told from Ashley's point of view. It was told from the narrator's. Somehow, the narrator knows what everyone is thinking, although usually he follows Ashley. Period. End of discussion. It's the easy way out. --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Cracroft Subject: Re: [AML] Cracroft's LDS Classics (Meridian) Date: 21 May 2001 06:48:07 -0600 Thanks, Andrew, for stressing my caveats in making the list of novels. I was afraid that some of your readers would take issue with me for not listing some works for a general audience. And I was right. Richard Cracroft - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 21 May 2001 17:32:21 > > >_The Graduate_ is, imo, an excellent example of how a disgusting story > >(an older woman having a affair with a younger man, her daughter's > >fiance) can be done with elegance and taste. > >Thom, would it be a disgusting story if it were about an older man having >an affair with a young woman? Or would that be "perfectly normal"? > >barbara hume In my opinion, what's disgusting about the story is not so much the age difference, but the fact that Mrs. Robinson is a married woman -- and the mother of the guy's girlfriend to boot. That's the creepy part. Would it be just as unsettling if it were an older man and a younger woman? If the man is polygamist Tom Green and the "woman" is a 13-year-old girl he plans to marry, then yes, it would be nasty. And if we're talking about movies, then anything involving hairy barnacle Sean Connery and a younger woman is automatically repulsive. Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 21 May 2001 12:40:46 -0600 On Sat, 19 May 2001 01:04:49 -0600, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >> I am one of those (apparently, in the Church) rare individuals who = gets >> no motivation from the lives of perfect people. OTOH, when I am made >> aware of their faults, their problems, their pain, and how they = overcome >> that, them I am motivated. > >Here here! I can admire a perfect person. I can't learn a great deal >from him how to overcome my own weaknesses. Why not? Seems to me that someone who has attained some degree of perfection might be very useful in describing how they got there. It = isn't like they are born that way. They had to do it through effort and hard work. And since when is it a bad thing to learn from someone who has = done it? Isn't that what teaching is all about? I try to be around as many = good people as possible. Not because I dislike bad people or shun them, but because I can learn from good people how they overcame their bad = impulses. If they are willing to talk honestly about what they have done and how = they overcame adversity, I'd be more than willing to pay attention (or even cash). Though that probably points out why such people aren't great characters = in a book. It'd be more useful (interesting) to find out how people *become* perfect than to depict accurately how they *are* perfect. I take comfort that people exist who have solved the majority of the gospel problems. = I'm not in competition with them for limited space in heaven. Any help they = can offer, even just by example, is useful to me in my own eternal = progression. Jacob Proffitt *Note please that perfect in this post is a relative term and that nobody= is really perfect, just some people are closer than others :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 21 May 2001 11:52:00 -0700 (PDT) --- "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > Do I find encouragement in the life of a Mormon who > seems to have been > born righteous, following every little bit of the > Gospel like falling > off a log? Or the member of the church who has > struggled against > temptation and succeeded, or failed, then recovered > through repentance? > The former I cannot duplicate, because I don't know > how he's doing it. > The latter's life is a textbook on how to do it, > teaching by example. > Frankly, I don't believe the former exists. I > believe every > "effortlessly" righteous life is a life with unseen > tribulations that > brought that person to that level of goodness. > > I think the argument we're having about this stems > from people thinking > that, because we want to see fallible characters in > our fiction, we're > celebrating the sinner. Not so. We're celebrating > the struggle to > overcome weakness and partake of the healing power > of the atonement. > Every human being but Jesus must deal with that > struggle--it's > universal. So why shouldn't it appear universally in > our literature? I agree with this line of reasoning and recognize that all of us are flawed and struggle with temptation and that that struggle makes for compelling literature, so I'm not sure I can further this specific discussion, but I do want to express a literary preference. As an aside: I remember as a teenager asking my parents about Mormon literature and my dad and mom quoting something that one of my dads' Spanish professors at BYU said, that is that Mormons will never produce a significant literature because they're not tortured enough, or because they lead prosaic lives, or because they 'know' all the answers, or something in that vein. Now my parents don't agree with this sentiment, but they used it to help me understand some of the obstacles Mormon writers face (in their opinion). So here's my preference: I want to read something that refutes this BYU prof's opinion in a specific way. Yes, I am captivated by and can enjoy the literature of 'backsliders.' I see a value in dealing with stories that break the Mormon stereotype, that deal with hard issues and grievous sins. But I would love to read a novel with a protaganist that is a pretty darn good and faithful Mormon, but struggles with some of the 'lesser' issues (it makes me nervous to try and classify sinnings since all sin can be repented from) like how to appropriately demonstrate rightous indignation. Or how to motivate others while still respecting free agency. Or how to balance learning and humility. How to fine tune a relatively rightous live. I want the flaws to be there, but to be in a minor key. I do think, however, that this kind of literature is incredibly difficult to write as compelling drama. One of the writers we often point to as an example for Mormon literature is Flannery O'Connor. I love her work, but at the same time, it often depends on putting characters in extreme (often violent)situations and through their responses to those situations to say something profound about grace and Catholicism. Good stuff, but I'm looking for much finer strokes, I think. My only thought on how to do this is to somehow copy the delicate, wound-up tension of a Henry James novel, but even those usually have a gross immoral act as the underlying cause of the exquisite tension found in his well-(over?)wrought scenes. Plus James with his dense sentence structure has a fairly limited readership. Anybody have examples of Mormon literature they think fit my preference? Anybody have this same preference and have some ideas about how to succesfully capture it? ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 21 May 2001 13:21:15 -0600 "Barbara R. Hume" wrote: >=20 > >_The Graduate_ is, imo, an excellent example of how a disgusting story > >(an older woman having a affair with a younger man, her daughter's > >fiance) can be done with elegance and taste. >=20 > Thom, would it be a disgusting story if it were about an older man having > an affair with a young woman? Or would that be "perfectly normal"? >=20 If I was the older gentleman, and the younger woman was Brittney Spears, it would be perfectly normal. I kid. I kid. But what's really disgusting about Mrs. Robinson and the Dustin Hoffman character is not just the age: but the fact that she's married and the young man is her daughter's fianc=E9. If they were both single, I wouldn't see anything disgusting about the relationship. --=20 Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 21 May 2001 10:53:34 -0700 I'm sure that everyone recognizes that there are no perfect Mormons. It's completely doctrinal and everyone would gladly pay lip service to it. There seems to be, however, some minimum standard of circumstance in which a Mormon must find himself in order to be considered a good role model. Despite all that we say, doctrinally, about the fact that we all have the status of sinner, there is a sense that some of us make better role models than others. I agree with what Michael Martindale said about where to look for role models for overcoming certain things, but it isn't common among Mormons to want to look there. Some of the factors that influence us, unfairly in my opinion, in assessing who our role models ought to be, are: * Calling -- the higher the calling, the better the role model * No "past" -- the cleaner the admitted past, the better the role model * Beauty -- outward appearance is supposed to be irrelevant, but from all I've seen, it is highly relevant to a great many people * Nature of struggles -- if you've overcome the effects of a medical condition, you're a definite hero, but if what you've overcome is sin, you're questionable Being acquainted with a host of people who are working to overcome distasteful and very un-Mormonlike addictions, a large part of the struggle is the struggle to feel like they fit in with the perfectly plastic personages they meet at church. It is little wonder that many wonder if the promises of the gospel can possibly relate to them. My past is pasted all over the Internet. I own multiple websites and internet resources for Latter-day Saints struggling with a variety of challenges, and I tend to tell my story there. Often, I get email from someone who has visited my sites taking me to task for not whitewashing my life as a good Latter-day Saint is supposed to do. In addiction recovery methodology, the penchant for appearing better than you really are is called, "acting in." "Acting out" is the terminology for acting on your addiction. For example, an alcoholic is addicting out when he is drinking or looking for a drink. Acting out is when the boundaries that should surround your behavior collapse. It's like the fence around you and your behavior has fallen. Acting in is when you build the fence too tightly around yourself and therefore tightly control yourself. It is a highly-judgmental mode, because the only way you can successfully restrict your own thoughts is to restrict the thoughts and behaviors of others, which falls into the realm of unrighteous dominion. It's as compulsive as acting out, hence the term in Alcoholics Anonymous, "dry drunk." So-called perfect Mormons are most likely "dry drunks" as it pertains to any number of vices against which a person expresses no tolerance but inwardly wants more than the people who have embraced it want it. If you're ever going to write fiction about an addict of any kind, you need to understand acting in. If your characters only act out, they will not be believable. See my essay on acting in at http://www.springsofwater.com/songsandjoy/actingin.shtml . Warning: it contains frank admissions by a Mormon with apparently no great shame about his past--namely me. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 21 May 2001 15:38:08 -0600 Thom Duncan writes: >Years ago, a book was done by a BYU professor (I wish I >could remember the title). He interviewed many families >identified by their respective Stake Presidents as "ideal" >Mormon families. Your description of the methodology suggests that you are thinking of _Effective Mormon Families: How They See Themselves_ by William G. Dyer and Phillip R. Kunz (or, perhaps, the slightly revised version entitled _10 Critical Keys for Highly Effective Mormon Families_). Dyer and Kunz "wrote to selected stake presidents . . . and asked them to identify fifteen families they felt were `the best families in their church jurisdiction.'" (p. 3.) >Guess what he found out. These pillars of the stake broke >virtually every stereotype we've come to expect from such >families. In the majority of cases, for instances, family >home evening (as an organized lesson) was rare. Dyer and Kunz found that 66% of respondents "always or usually held a weekly family home evening" (p. vii). They state that this 66% probably only includes those families holding a "pre-formatted `meeting'" (p. 20). >By some, films were enjoyed because of their artistic >qualities, not because of their ratings. Perhaps I have simply overlooked it, but I can't find anywhere in their book that Dyer and Kunz report these effective families saying this. The only thing related to movies and ratings I found is where Dyer mentions that some of the students in the BYU Stake he presides over say "everyone misses some meetings or goes to an R-rated movie. It's no big deal". Dyer and Kunz reply: "While we might agree about . . . the lack of earthshaking consequences for going to an occasional R-rated movie, what we do see--very clearly--is that relativity is a slippery slide. Young people who don't have clear boundaries on their behavior and who keep waffling about what is or isn't important can be backed over the edge into serious transgression in a remarkably brief period of time." (p. 166.) [...] >If the program (e.g., home teaching, early morning scripture >study,) didnt' work for a particular family, they replaced it >with something else. Dyer and Kunz report that 93% of these effective families "always accepted Church jobs" (p. vii). I would imagine that that includes the job of being a home teacher. Or did you mean that these effective families stopped letting *their* home teachers visit *them*? Chris Grant - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 21 May 2001 13:25:31 -0600 (MDT) Quoting "D. Michael Martindale" : > katie@aros.net wrote: > > > In an interview quoted in a paper posted > > there, he even states that he doesn't try to be a great writer and use > literary > > techniques and so forth. He feels that this can get in the way of the > story. > > So he may be aware of more of this sort of thing than we give him > credit for. > > Sorry, but that sounds like a cop out to me (and I am at your mercy > assuming that you've passed on the intent of his quote correctly). Am > I > to honestly believe that all the great writers who developed literary > techniques over the centuries were working hard to develop something > that would make their stories worse? Well, no. But I do agree with him that sometimes writers who concentrate on their techniques (Weyland specifically mentions symbolism) can make their stories harder to read. The semester that I was an English major, I noticed a general snootiness about many of the students (including myself) and faculty--that we were wonderful because we could write something so "well" and bury meaning so deeply that the only people who would understand it were other English majors. It's my impression that this is the sort of thing that Weyland wants to avoid. >If Jack Weyland really believes > what this quote attributes to him, then he doesn't understand literary > techniques. > > How would you like to overhear your doctor say, "I just think those > surgical techniques they taught me in medical school get in the way of > the operation"? Those literary techniques are the tools of the trade. > If > Jack doesn't want to use the tools of the trade, why is he in the > trade? > Frankly, I consider that attitude to be an insult to all writers who > struggle to master the tools of their trade. Maybe, to continue your analogy, Jack is an herbal therapist, not a surgeon. He's not necessarily trying to do the same thing, even if the end result (healing people) is the same. > >I'd > > really like to read something of his and thoroughly enjoy it, without > being > > able to pick out irritating passages where he takes literary shortcuts > that, > > unfortunately, look just like "something Jack Weyland would do." > > You are proving my point, Katie. I'm not asking Jack Weyland to stop > being Jack Weyland. I'm asking him to be a better Jack Weyland with > the > more experience he gets. No one is impressed with somebody who does > the > same thing year after year and never improves. > Sure. The point I originally meant to make was that Weyland is at least aware enough of literary techniques, or some of them, to have consciously decided not to use them. But to me, making your writing more seamless and overloading it with symbolism are two different things. Maybe he thinks they are the same and has chosen to have none of it (in which case he doesn't understand them as well as I've given him credit for). But I really think that his books would improve considerably if he'd just do simple things like making his backstories less heavy-handed. And I don't think he'd alienate any of his audience if he did this. He'd probably gain a larger one. And he doesn't need symbolism if he doesn't want it; not for what he's trying to do and who he's trying to reach. (Glad I could help prove your point while I was at it. :) Since he sells well anyway, I doubt he has any reason to think that his "techniques" aren't working. Only English major-type weirdos like us are the ones who complain. Which is why I don't understand why his English major- type editors don't complain, too. --Katie Parker katie@aros.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 21 May 2001 15:49:23 -0600 on 5/21/01 11:22 AM, RichardDutcher@aol.com at RichardDutcher@aol.com wrote: > We (Zion Films / Excel Entertainment) are looking for a female, returned > missionary writer to do a spin off novelization of "God's Army". Please me > call ASAP 344-8764. > > Thanks! > Emily Pearson Hi-- Just curious, why female RMs? (I write music so I wouldn't be in the running anyway) Steve - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Rex Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] John BENNION, _Falling Toward Heaven_ (Review) Date: 20 May 2001 10:17:45 -0600 Martindale wrote: > The relationship between Howard and Allison makes absolutely no sense. > These people should not be together. They know they should not be > together. They irritate the bejeebies out of each other. There is > literally nothing to base their relationship on. Even the physical > attraction they feel for one another wouldn't hold up over time against > the pressure of their utter incompatibility. They are in love simply > because the author says so, and there is no other justification for > their relationship. While I absolutely agree with the above comment, reading it made me wonder if the incompatibility was something Bennion was driving at. I took it as symbolism of a relationship encumbering the author and Mormonism. The issue--Can Howard and Allison coexist?--becomes for me a question of whether Howard's deep cultural Mormonism can live with the intellectual academia of the Modern PC World (of both Bills Gates and Clinton). Allison is a computer geek with beautiful long legs and the daughter of academia--perhaps the archetype of success in the present world. Howard can WANT her, but can he LOVE her? It appears he can make love to her in spurts if she accepts (although doesn't embrace) the quirkiness of his history imprinted on his pysche. Is there a message here? Can Allison (Babylon) love Howard? Unlike her earlier lovers, he has soul--that deep feeling of who he is and how much the Old Testament God Of The Desert (OTGOTD) must disapprove. If men are toys, then Howard must be the ultimately weird doll--the doll that is not for everyone, but has something GI Joe and Ken don't have. Like what? Like the OTGOTD thing and the cajones to work two bittery cold winter days full of snow, dead pickup batteries and other various and sunder entropy, to successfully pull an otherwise stillborn calf from it's mother and call it the best two days of his life. A job only the children of Ephraim could love. That striving is likely what Allison admires, even while fearing the whole two days for her fragile life. Allison can and does embrace Howard's mother, who might represent the Sonja Johnson OTGOTDless wing of Mormonism (although Mom has a kinder gentler voice than Sonja.) So they negotiate their living arrangements throughout the book. (And you thought politics made strange befellows.) Think symbolism! Think of the struggle for acceptance; e.g., statehood, or the struggle for the 2002 games, or PC compatibility. Or the struggle to get published in the NY market, et cetera. Are these relationships incompatible, as Martindale suggests? In the book, their own child has birthing complications, and Howard vows allegiance to the OTGOTD for the hope of its life. But the child was stillborn and Howard's imagination projects the child's promised life into a future and far better place. Howard relates to Allison his dreams of billions of children and a managing creation in a planet in a galaxy far far away. Allison (Babylon) cuddles up to him, perhaps realizing her vulerability, and lets him ramble because she hasn't his imagination. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Up to the Limit Date: 21 May 2001 18:31:29 -0500 Folks, By my count, this message brings us up to 30 for today. (I may fit another one in, on the theory that as a moderator's message this one doesn't count.) There's quite a few still left in my in-box. I haven't followed strict chronological order in sending out posts I've received. Rather, I've tried to keep things moving ahead with some of our currently-in-process threads. Assuming that the pace drops off, I should be able to get some of those already-received posts out in the next couple of days. If a post you have made doesn't make it out, feel free to query and/or resend. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] HOLZAPFEL & SHUPE, _Joseph F. Smith, Portrait of a Prophet_ (Review) Date: 19 May 2001 04:03:49 GMT Review =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Richard Neitzel Holzapfel & R. Q. Shupe, "Joseph F. Smith, Portrait of a= =20 Prophet" 2000, Deseret Book Company Hardback, 375 pages, $25.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle In a time when biographies of Church presidents are easily available, on= e=20 always wonders why another book seems necessary. How much can you say=20= about a person that hasn't already been said? Focusing on this=20 interesting man in various forums in the Church advances the cause for a= =20 new book, but doesn't entirely justify it. Mere repetition does not=20= constitute praise. The authors of "Joseph F. Smith, Portrait of a Prophet" make their=20 intentions clear at the outset: "This work is primarily an effort to produce a 'Joseph F. Smith=20 photographic scrapbook,' highlighting some of the wonderful images from = an impressive visual record of his life. It is not an effort to supplan= t=20 the existing historical efforts of previous authors who provide details,= =20 insights, and interpretations of his labors and ministry." (from the=20= Introduction) True to their word, the first 265 pages of this book are richly populate= d=20 by a genuinely interesting photographic record of Pres. Smith and the=20= people who surrounded him. Also included are photographs of his wives, = and reproductions of letters written by, and to, him. The remaining pages contain a record of the tributes delivered at the=20= spring 1918 General Conference, the first after Smith's death. They=20= contain wonderful reflections of those who knew him best, those who=20 served with and under him. One of the disappointments in this book is the repetitious nature of the= =20 narrative that surrounds the photographs. In my opinion, a little of=20= this stuff goes a long way. An example: an account of Smith's experienc= e=20 with personal loss begins on page 47 with a 22-line recitation of the=20= deaths of his various wives and children. Then there is an extended=20= discussion (pages 48-54) of the death of his daughter Mercy Josephine. = Yes, losing a child is a terrible thing, but so much material seemed a=20= bit overdone. The book is filled with endless cites from his personal letters. Many o= f=20 these cites really add nothing to the larger story. I found myself=20 becoming impatient with the inevitable repetition when one is quoting=20= extensively from private correspondence. Now, all this may very well be appropriate for this kind of book. If=20= this approach makes Pres. Smith seem more human, more approachable, then= =20 perhaps it is a good approach. Having said this, we now confront the important question, "Should I run = out and purchase this book?" It is, after all, $25.95 plus tax. I'm=20= guessing most of us are faced with the problem of too many books to buy = and not enough money to spend. "Joseph F. Smith, Portrait of the=20 Prophet" is not a bad book. It is, in fact, a good book that fills a=20= niche. The authors make no secret of their intention -- a photo-album o= f=20 the life of Pres. Smith. And this is accomplished very nicely. But it = is also filled with endless, often repetitious, citations from his=20 correspondence. I would have liked more historical detail. But then=20= again, this isn't a work of history, it's a family photo album. Given these limitations, I recommend the book to those who want a=20 single-volume snapshot of a wonderful man who led the Church through=20= difficult times. --=20 Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 22 May 2001 10:29:19 -0500 Jonathan, On my last post to AML-List, I cc'd Thom, since I was responding to his ideas. He apparently sent his reply (see below) directly to me, instead of to the AML-List. I'm sending it to you in case he neglected to resend it to the AML-List. Thanks, Frank M. Frank Maxwell wrote: > > P.S. to the Moderator: Hope the anecdotes aren't too off-topic. Can we > consider this kind of story-swapping an embryonic form of literature? > Perhaps a personal essay in vitro? To us creative types, we can turn anything into story fodder . But to further tie Frank's excellent essay into literature: I think it goes to show being a writer to the Mormon audience isn't as easy as it may at first seem. We need to decide which kind of Mormons we'll be writing to. Jack Weyland writes to Laurels, young Mormon girls. Rachel Nunes writes mostly to Mormon women, but only Mormon certain Mormon women (Mormon feminists, for instance, are probably not going to like her books). Levi Petersen writes to the "literary" Mormon and anyone who is a fan of just plain good writing. And so forth. I've had similar experiences to those Frank talks about, where my brand of Mormonness came as a shock to people. When I worked for the LAN Times, one young reporter approached me and said, "Thom, you are much more evolved than any other Mormon man I know." She was referring by evolved to my attitude about women's rights. She had gotten the impression that all Mormon men were opposed to the advancement of all women as anything other than wives and mothers. I laughed it off by telling her I have four daughters and they won't let me be a chauvinist pig but there was hidden pain in that response: the pain being that my Church was so perceived by this women and others I came to know. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Donny Osmond Concert Date: 19 May 2001 11:35:59 -0600 Tracie, Where is "here"? Donny has always been gracious and done incredible concerts everywhere I've seen him. Lu Ann Tracie Laulusa wrote: > Donny Osmond was in concert here last night. I didn't go, but I'm listening > to the radio and the DJs are taking calls about it. Apparently it was a big > hit. Fans are saying it is the best concert they've ever seen. And people > who waited around for autographs are saying how gracious and wonderful Donny > is. Amazing success. > > Tracie Laulusa > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Devil's Advocate Date: 20 May 2001 08:45:05 -0600 I have been accused on occasion of being a devil's advocate. So I decided, since I've been accused of it anyway, I might as well do some real advocating for the devil... That devil, he's a pretty cool guy. He'll point out all sorts of alternate choices you may have never considered before. He wants to maximize your experience here on earth--make sure you've experienced as many things as possible. And when you're in a lurch, he really comes through for you. Just listen to these satisfied customers: Cain: "The devil helped me get this really cool mark. It keeps me from getting murdered." King David: "The devil hooked me up with this righteous babe called Bathsheba. We had one rip-roaring time, me and her." Laman and Lemuel: "If it wasn't for the devil, we might never have seen that cool angel, or got a buzz when our brother Nephi touched us. The devil encouraged us to murmur when Nephi broke his bow. That way we didn't have to do anything about it, and he was the one who had to go make a new one and find some lunch." Adam: "The devil was decent enough to approach my wife Eve first, otherwise I might have been the one cursed with enduring childbirth. As it is, I only have to sweat a little as I till the land. I'll take that any day!" Eve: "Screw the devil!" [Hey, how'd that one get in there?] Judas Iscariot: "The devil helped me earn 30 pieces of silver. What a guy! Can't wait to hook up with him in O.D." King Noah: "Two words: Abinadi kabob." Moses: "The devil helped me hone my pride, so I didn't have to lead the children of Israel into the promised land and battle all those Canaanites. Poor Joshua got stuck with that gig. The devil also showed me that nifty film of outer darkness. Beat "Scream 3" all to hell (literally)." Zacharias: "When that angel said we'd be having a baby, the devil made me doubt and ask for a sign. The angel struck me dumb. I didn't have to listen or talk to my wife Elizabeth for nine months! Thank you, devil." Noah: "The devil talked me into leaving all those dinosaurs behind. Now scientists think a comet killed them. Beelzebub--what a practical joker!" Eric Samuelsen: "The devil keeps making me think I'm feeling the spirit when I listen to heavy metal music. That way I don't have to listen to Afterglow (brrr!)" Eric Snyder: "The devil made me lambast that Villa Theater play." Thom Duncan: "The devil helps me keep things stirred up on AML-List, otherwise it would get pretty boring around here." Marvin Payne: "The devil made me do a play by Thom Duncan." Harlow Clark: "I could never write those long, mind-numbing messages without the help of the devil. He's my muse." Barbara Hume: "The devil made me write romance." Jack Weyland: "The devil made me write at all." Rachel Ann Nunes: "If you call my books romance, you can go to the devil!" Gerald Lund: "I got all my pointers on how to depict Joseph Smith in 'The Work and the Glory' from Old Scratch himself." Orson Scott Card: "I am the devil." Richard Dutcher: "The devil's going to make me film an R-rated movie yet, you wait and see." J. Golden Kimball: "The devil made me say it, dammit!" Jeff Needle: "The devil keeps my AML review score high. Only cost me one soul to do it." Linda Adams: "I wish the devil would help me finish volume 2." Chris Bigelow: "All the agents I queried _are_ devils." Jonathan Langford: "All I know is I'm having a devil of a time keeping this list under control." D. Michael Martindale: "The devil's making me take over the AML writers conference for science fiction fans. No wait, that wasn't the devil, that was Scott Bronson." -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN New Products: Mormon History and Doctrine: Kent Larsen Date: 20 May 2001 22:27:48 -0500 18May01 A4 [From Mormon-News] Mormon History and Doctrine NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- Several books on Mormon history and doctrine are among the new products this week. Morris Shirts' account of the Iron mission, Brigham Young's attempt to process iron ore in Southern Utah, is being released by BYU in both hardcover and paperback editions and the University of Illinois Press has released a new paperback edition of Edwin Firmage's classic legal history of the early LDS Church, "Zion in the Courts." Meanwhile, Griffin Books, the paperback imprint of national publisher St. Martins Press, has released Coke Newell's "Latter Days" in paperback. That "Latter Days" has been released in paperback is a strong vote for the book, which came out in hardcover last year just after President Gordon B. Hinckley's "Standing for Something." But unlike President Hinckley's book, "Latter Days" didn't attract much attention from LDS Church members, instead selling to the general public. New and recent products: A Trial Furnace: Southern Utah's Iron Mission by Morris A. Shirts and Kathryn H. Shirts Brigham Young University Publications Book; University Publisher; NonFiction; Mormon Subject and Author A history of Brigham Young's attempt to start an iron processing facility in Cedar City Utah. Saving Adam by L. Smith Cedar Fort Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $19.95 Story of a foster child, thought to be "retarded." who is brought into a caring family that meets more than just his physical needs. Race Against Time by Willard Boyd Gardner Covenant Communications Book; LDS Publisher; Fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $14.95 Story of an non-Mormon police officer's unwitting trip back in time where he saves a group of Mormons from a Missouri mob. Arise & Sine Forth: Talks from the 2000 Women's Conference Deseret Book Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Authors $44.95 Talks from the 2000 Women's Conference, including talks by Kathleen H. Barnes, Merrill J. Bateman, John Bytheway, Sheri L. Dew, Virginia U. Jensen, Ardeth G. Kapp, Coleen K. Menlove, Margaret D. Nadauld, Virginia H. Pearce, Mary Ellen Smoot, Emily Watts 52 Nice Things to Do to Make Someone Happy by Jeri-Lynn Johnson Deseret Book Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $14.95 Includes 52 practical, thoughtful things you can do to lift a friend's burdens, let him know you are thinking about him, brighten her day, or confirm your friendship. Zion in the Courts by Edwin Brown Firmage and Richard Collin Mangrum University of Illinois Press Book; University Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $21.95 New paperback edition of now-classic look at legal challenges to the LDS Church throughout its history. Latter Days: An Insider's Guide to Mormonism, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by Coke Newell Griffin Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Author $14.95 Newell's look at the history and beliefs of the LDS Church, with the non-Mormon reader in mind. Encompasses the whole of human history, from before the creation to the present, presenting Mormon doctrine along the way. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 21 May 2001 11:44:46 -0600 (MDT) D. Michael Wrote: > How about if we remember that there has been only one perfect person, > all recent assertions on this list to the contrary notwithstanding. I'll be contrary - Christ was to only person to be perfect his entire life, without once sinningbut the scriptures refer to several people as perfect (and despite the fact perfect can be translated many ways - they are really only facets of one meaning - whole, complete, etc. all still mean perfect.) I don't want to get into to theological an argument, so let me put a literary spin on this. I am not inspired by tales that show that we're all frail and can never be perfect - because all I get out of that type of story is "why even bother." Why can't we show that it is possibel to become perfect (eventually)? That at least (for me, and others I know) lets me know the goal is attainable. For example: Genesis 6:8-10 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (no he wasn't perfect his whole life, he got drunk, etc. - but he did become perfect) Job 1:1-2 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Job 1:7-9 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 2:2-4 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. (Okay - so he complained a lot, but I don't buy the argument he's a mythical figure, or that the tale is allegorical). Alma 27:27 And they were among the people of Nephi, and also numbered among the people who were of the church of God. And they were also distinguished for their zeal towards God, and also towards men; for they were perfectly honest and upright in all things; and they were firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end. Alma 50:37 And it came to pass that in the same year that the people of Nephi had peace restored unto them, that Nephihah, the second chief judge, died, having filled the judgment-seat with perfect uprightness before God. (these last two do ot indicate a perfectness in all aspects of their lives = but they show it is possible to be perfect in some areas). --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: [AML] Marilyn BROWN, _Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_ (Review) Date: 21 May 2001 03:22:36 -0600 THE WINE-DARK SEA OF GRASS by Marilyn Brown 2000, Salt Press 397 pages Reviewed by Morgan B. Adair How could good people do something so horrible? When that question was = first asked by those investigating the killing of over 120 immigrants in = the tragedy known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the response was = denial: "We didn't do it. It was the Indians." Once the essential facts of = the Massacre came to light, anti-Mormon writers provided a different = answer: "They were not good people." With the ball back in the Mormon = court, the next phase was rationalization: "It was not such a bad thing." = There was an army approaching. We were in a war. Members of the Fancher = train (and the preceding wagon train, the "Missouri Wildcats") incited the = Indians to uprising, and they had to be killed to placate the Indians. The Massacre has been dealt with in anti-Mormon fiction, but Marilyn = Brown's _The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_ is the first novel that I'm aware of = that focuses on the Massacre from the Mormon perspective. Another novel = was just released: _Ferry Woman: A Novel of John D. Lee and the Mountain = Meadows Massacre_, by Gerald Grimmett, Limberlost Press. Yet another is = forthcoming: _Red Water_, by Judith Freeman (author of _A Desert of Pure = Feeling_), possibly from a major publisher. Brown has made an effort to make her story historically accurate, but = sometimes accepts rumors that put the immigrants in a negative light. = Take, for example, the rumor that the "Missouri Wildcats" poisoned a = spring, resulting in the death of livestock. Proctor Robinson died after = skinning one of the dead cattle, the poison supposedly being transmitted = when he rubbed his eye. This rumor circulated after the massacre as an = example of the outrages committed by immigrants traveling through Utah = that incited the Mormon anger that was misdirected against the Fanchers. = The authoritative source on the massacre, Juanita Brooks's _The Mountain = Meadows Massacre_, notes that a much more likely explanation is that = Robinson died of a bacterial infection from skinning a decaying carcass, = and that the cattle died of natural causes. Nevertheless, Brown treats = Robinson's death as if caused by the Missourians. As one reads through the list of names and ages of those killed in the = Massacre (http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/inmemory.htm), one notices that = the party consisted mostly of young families. For the most part, Brown = depicts the party as a faceless crowd, "like a river." The one exception = is a man and his pregnant wife that the protagonist, Jacob, talks to on = the road. Coincidentally, this is the man that Jacob is expected to kill = in the massacre. Members of the immigrant train were disarmed, then = walked, single file, back toward Cedar City. After walking a short = distance, the command was given to halt, and each of the Mormons was to = kill the immigrant at his side. Brown's description of the massacre = doesn't capture the horror of the tragedy. Most of the people killed are = part of the faceless crowd. When the order was given, Jacob "saw the men = of the Fancher train thudding to the ground." His attention immediately = turns to the man he is supposed to kill, who is attempting to wrest = Jacob's gun away from him. For Jacob, what was to be a massacre suddenly = became a struggle for his life. The killing of this man, the only one of = the immigrants who is not faceless, is done in self-defense. The man dies = asking that question, "How could. . . ." Brown correctly places John D. Lee near the front of the column, behind a = wagonload of sick and wounded immigrants. Jacob is shocked when he sees = Lee killing them, but realizes that no one who could tell what happened = could be left alive. In depicting the Massacre, Brown could take a lesson from Spielberg's = _Saving Private Ryan_. The opening scene, perhaps the most effective = depiction of the horror of war ever made, succeeds by giving many details = in rapid succession. In comparison, Brown has given us a wide-angle view. = Details of the massacre that Brown could have drawn on have been preserved = in the accounts of both the Mormon participants and children who survived. = For example, Mary Elizabeth "Sallie" Baker was 5 years old at the time of = the Massacre: "Sallie Baker recalled she was sitting on her father's lap when the same = bullet that killed him nicked her ear, leaving a scar forever. The = bloodshed was imprinted on Sallie's memory for the rest of her life. Only = her words can begin to describe her feelings. She was eighty-five years = old and still remembered: "But even when you're that young you don't forget the horror of having you = father gasp for breath and grow limp, while you have your arms around his = neck, screaming with terror. You don't forget the blood curdling war = whoops and the banging of guns all around you. You don't forget the = screaming of the other children and the agonized shrieks of women being = hacked to death with tomahawks. And you wouldn't forget it, either, if you = saw your own mother topple over in the wagon beside you, with a big red = splotch getting bigger on the front of her calico dress. . . . "One of the Mormons ran up to the wagon, raised his gun and said, 'Lord my = God, receive their spirits, it is for thy Kingdom that I do this.' Then he = fired at the wounded man who was leaning against another man, killing them = both with the same bullet. "A 14 year-old boy came running up toward our wagon, and the driver, who = was a Mormon, hit him over the head with the butt end of his gun, crushing = the boy's skull. A young girl about 11 years old, all covered with blood, = was running toward the wagon when an Indian fired at her point blank." = (Anna Jean Backus, _Mountain Meadows Witness: The Life and Times of Bishop = Philip Klingensmith_, pp 136-7.) Brown shifts the point of view of the narrative several times in the = novel. Each chapter begins with the name of the character from whose point = of view that chapter is told. Brown could have used this technique to make = a very powerful book, just by including one more point of view, that of = one of the members of the Fancher party. Imagine seeing the massacre from = the point of view of a 5 or 6 year-old child whose lack of comprehension = of events only adds to the terror they feel. Then imagine how they would = feel, after watching their family killed by the Mormons, being given to a = Mormon family to be cared for. Although the cover of the book and my review thus far might lead you to = believe that _The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_ is a novel about the Mountain = Meadows Massacre, that is not really the case. The Massacre is a backdrop = to the actual story, a story of obsessive love between Elizabeth and John = D. Lee, and between Jacob and Elizabeth, who ends up marrying Jacob's = father, J.B. Polygamy complicates many of the marriages in the novel, just = as it did in real life. Much of the novel seems to be from the romance = genre, so I'll have to leave that part of it for someone more familiar = with that genre to review. Finally, a note on the printing. While the book is nicely bound and has an = attractive dust jacket, there are problems with the printed text. There is = almost no bottom margin--the text comes within 1/4 to 1/8 inch of the = bottom of the page, and on many pages, the text is printed slightly = crooked. While I enjoy reading history, I believe literature has a greater = potential to let us imagine the feelings and motivations of others and = explore human complexity. In telling the Mountain Meadows story from the = Mormon point of view, Marilyn Brown has told us that this horrible thing = happened, that good people did it, and somehow they continued to be good = people. I'm confident that the answer to how this could happen could be = found by unraveling the complexities of human nature, but I haven't found = that answer yet. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Irreantum2@cs.com Subject: [AML] Re: Female Writer Wanted Date: 21 May 2001 22:34:40 EDT Does anyone else find it fascinating that Richard Dutcher's call for authors for the _God's Army_ novelization specifies FEMALE? It brings to mind the following news capsule we ran in Irreantum's winter 2000-2001 issue: Deseret News writer Jerry Johnston explored the topic of Mormon missionary fiction in a December 16 [2000] column. "Dozens of novels have been written about LDS missionary life," he observed. But "no matter how good they are, they don't generate a buzz." Missionary novels, Johnston wrote, "almost always focus on one elder--usually the narrator--struggling with faith and faithfulness. His conflicts are internal. He often tries to maintain his individual identity in a sea of dark-suited sameness. He wrestles with authority. He slips, he slides." However, most Mormons, according to Johnson, see missionary experience not as "the arena for fighting your personal demons" but as a time when the missionary "belongs to God" and must set aside self-absorbed fretting and "worry about larger matters." Johnston noted that missionary-themed theatrical productions fare better with Mormon audiences because "they're lighter and filled with music. And the story is usually about missionary work itself, about a community of kids trying to overcome adversity and get the word out." He opined that if Mormons ever embrace a literary masterpiece about mission life, it will probably "have a female writer and protagonist, rather than a young lion straining at his restraints." Richard, do you care to give us some insight into that novelist BFOQ you (or someone on your team) have specified? (BFOQ = bona fide occupational qualification. I learned that term while employed by the church. The Ensign managing editor position has a male BFOQ, the New Era can be either gender, and the Friend has a female BFOQ. Interesting, huh?) Chris Bigelow Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 21 May 2001 22:31:09 -0600 D. Michael Martindale wrote: >But when drug addicts want to escape their chains, who do they turn to? >The near-perfect Mormon who does everything right, or the former addict >who has successfully kicked the habit? When an alcoholic finally admits >to himself he has a problem, where does he find the instructions and the >motivation to overcome his disease? In the speeches of testimony >meeting? Or the speeches of recovering alcoholics at an AA meeting? Where does the person who feels a temptation for alcohol turn *before* they've imbibed and become an addict? Where does the person who desperately wants something they can't afford turn to *before* they've actually stolen to learn how to deal with the temptation? There is just as much value in learning to avoid some sins as there is in recovering from it. Even those without great sins in their past struggle to understand and to succeed and to be better. The stories of those who have succeeded to some degree in resisting sin are as much a part of the Mormon experience as the stories of those who have fallen prey to it. To deny the reality or value of any of those stories is to claim a special value for sin that I'm not sure is right or good. I think this is a form of pride in many writers and readers. We believe that the "better" or "truer" story is of those who have failed spectacularly to live up to their own expectations (failing to meet the expectations of society is a weak story for me; I'm only engaged if the characters believe that they have failed their own potential, or believe that they must change their society). Trying to one-up each other about how much pain we've experienced or how dark a sin we've fallen to is just as distasteful to me as trying to one-up each other about how spiritual we are. It's pride either way. I've done both in my life, and haven't found joy in either approach. I personally find great interest in stories of "plastic" people, because I want to know what's in their heads, and why they think themselves superior, and how they reconcile that belief with the standards of their religion. I find interest in stories of young people who struggle with sin and temptation and with trying to be the best people they can be--both in how they succeed and how they fail. I'm interested in the stories of reformed sinners and how they decided to change, and of current sinners and why they haven't decided to change, and in those who are apparently sinless and what they wish they could change. We keep trying to pretend that failure is the only thing worth studying in fiction, and I just don't believe that. Compelling stories can be told in any circumstance and from any perspective. I think it's a bit of a cop-out to only tell stories of the great failures. It suggests that authors don't have the skill to tell compelling stories of the slightly flawed. I would tend to argue that to a great degree, sin is sin and can have the same damaging effect on the psyche and soul of the sinner, whether it be a case of full-on alcoholism or a broken promise to oneself that champagne isn't really alcohol--or at least not really meaningful alcohol. The story is set up in the mind of the characters, not in the violence of their sin. I'm currently reading _Candide_ again and thinking that someone should write the Mormon version of that; at this point in my life, that book seems a scant few metaphors away from being a comment on our Mormon hope for the best of all possible worlds in collision with our desperate fear that we may discover that we're unable to create that world. Heaven knows, that dichotomy lies at the heart of our apocalyptic lore--we try to build the kingdom of God while at the same time knowing that we will fail to a sufficient degree that it will require the coming of God himself to set things right. Very Germanic in that sense. This story can be intense, dark, hopeful, and suffused with grace all at the same time, and I think the idea is universal enough to appeal to an awful lot of people without requiring any great sin or any sinlessness. While rushing to justify why it's okay to write about sin and recovery and the real power of redemption, let's not forget that the true stories of many people involve just as much struggle and searching and personal pain but without the big sins. *Both* kinds of stories can be true, and both can be horribly false. It's up to skillful storytellers to make the stories true regardless of the specific details of the conflict. >Do I find encouragement in the life of a Mormon who seems to have been >born righteous, following every little bit of the Gospel like falling >off a log? Or the member of the church who has struggled against >temptation and succeeded, or failed, then recovered through repentance? >The former I cannot duplicate, because I don't know how he's doing it. >The latter's life is a textbook on how to do it, teaching by example. >Frankly, I don't believe the former exists. I believe every >"effortlessly" righteous life is a life with unseen tribulations that >brought that person to that level of goodness. Exactly. So why do we spend so much time obsessing about people who we perceive to be near-perfect? Our personal success has nothing to do with them, so why do we let them control our perceptions to such a great degree? Why don't we tell the stories of their struggles and inner desire to be more than they are? Why do we simply dismiss them as unworthy of our scrutiny or our stories? Are we afraid the learn that there really isn't any perfection and the best we can hope for is a different kind of struggle? Are we afraid to discover that Peter Priesthood and Molly Mormon really have progressed in their thinking to the point that they simply aren't bugged by the things that cause others of us so much pain? Are we afraid to admit that some people really *are* qualitatively better than we are? Which exposes our own imperfection as a series of choices on our part, not something endemic to the people themselves, and that removes our last excuse for failure? I don't know. And because I don't know, I can't call one story honest and another one dishonest. I don't know the hearts of other people (most of the time I don't really know my own heart), so I can't dismiss the insight of one writer over the insight of another one. As we've pointed out so many times on this list, different people learn through different images and metaphors and symbols and experiences. So let's provide readers with many and different expressions, and levels of sin, and levels of grace, and successes, and failures. More importantly, let's talk less and write more. Or talk lots, but write even more. >I think the argument we're having about this stems from people thinking >that, because we want to see fallible characters in our fiction, we're >celebrating the sinner. Not so. We're celebrating the struggle to >overcome weakness and partake of the healing power of the atonement. Which applies equally to all--the greater sinner *and* the lesser sinner. >Every human being but Jesus must deal with that struggle--it's >universal. So why shouldn't it appear universally in our literature? I suppose this is actually the crux of my conceptual disagreement with some of the parts of this discussion. I believe that even Jesus struggled in his earthly life. But to struggle is not to succumb and to resist temptation is not to be freed of desire to sin at times. While I didn't care all that much for _The Last Temptation of Christ_ I think it did hit on something very real and powerful--that he was tempted, and that he chose to harder and better path anyway. I know that for me, it's just as hard to choose to do right but difficult things (like getting my lazy carcass out to do my home teaching) as it is to shun sin that I have direct experience with (I've been sober for twelve years now; but that doesn't mean that I don't sometimes desperately want a drink--like I do this very moment) as it is to avoid sins that I have no direct experience with (no woman has ever thrown herself at me with lust in her heart--or at least none that weren't my wife). While it may be quite unpopular to say so, I suspect that resisting sin is often no easier than repenting of it despite our apparent belief to the contrary. Both the prodigal son and the other one ended up with the same reward, and in the end Thomas had the same testimony of Christ as those who had believed without feeling for themselves. (Scott's Private Heresy Number 15, Corrolaries A, B, and C: Many of those stories aren't about right versus wrong, but about two versions of right that have equal value in the end, though the paths are often quite different.) As you and others have pointed out, though, the story that engages is the one that deals truthfully with the struggle from the POV of real characters that we can connect with at some (but not necessarily all) levels. Struggle to resist and struggle to recover are both potentially true and powerful stories. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: [AML] Hi Date: 22 May 2001 00:45:43 -0500 I've been thoroughly enjoying reading every one's posts the past several days since I've joined. And I feel completely out of my league here. I'm a homemaker and a struggling writer. Struggling, because at this point I've only been published once - in a Chicken Soup book. I have completed a novel and sent it off, hoping to get some positive reaction, and I'm in the process of writing another novel as well as trying to sell several children's stories, and a few short stories. I don't think I'll ever say what the novel is though. What if it did by some miracle get published? I might have to bear the negative statements by the critics on this list, for it's no great literary feat, just a story that possessed me until I told it. I enjoy reading LDS fiction although I'm unfamiliar with most of the writers mentioned so far on this list. Currently I'm reading "Secrets" by Yorgeson. Although the story is riveting, some of the writing style has irked me. Mostly the way some conversations are handled and the difficulty with the "he said, she saids", that writers try too hard to make different. I'm looking forward to the discussions on this list. And I hope that at some point I'll know what I'm talking about well enough to jump in. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: [AML] Lance RICHARDSON, _The Message_ (Review) Date: 22 May 2001 08:09:47 -0700 Review ====== Lance Richardson, "The Message" 2000, Idaho Falls, Idaho, American Family Publishing Paperback, 154 pages, $12.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle Let me state at the outset that "The Message" appeared dangerously close to being a clone of an earlier book, "I Saw Heaven, reviewed by me a few years ago. Given the story -- a man has an accident, he visits the Spirit World, learns lessons, comes back, etc., etc. -- "The Message" sounded just like the earlier book. Would new ground be broken? Would Richardson have something original to say? The book opens with Richardson explaining how he got himself into his predicament -- an unfortunate motorcycle accident puts him into the hospital. Already suffering from poor health, this event pushes him over the edge, and he goes into a deep coma. During this time, he visits Paradise where he is greeted by loved ones. While there, he is taught important spiritual lessons. (Those familiar with the teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg will recognize his theology here. LDS authors Brent and Wendy Top, among others, have acknowledged Swedenborg's contribution to the world's understanding of death and after-life. Mormonism, coming nearly half a century after Swedenborg's death, echoes many of his thoughts.) "I Saw Heaven was just bloated with theological teachings, some of them sound and some of them not. You may recall that the publisher was able to list the teachings of the book, one to a line, across several pages. I didn't like "I Saw Heaven" -- it simply wasn't believable. But "The Message" is a better book. The focus of Richardson's Message is not so much doctrinal, but practical. What most deeply impressed Richardson was the idea of Service (he uses the capital letter). Building a Zion society is accomplished by living a life of service (also a solid Swedenborgian idea, by the way.) Subsequent to his recovery, he and his family, along with some friends, set out on a two-week journey through several states, searching for opportunities for service. The nicest part of the book, I thought, was where this trip, and their wonderful experiences along the way, are described. Some attention should be paid to the insights Richardson received concerning our nation. On pages 116-117, he lists five concerns expressed to him by those in the Spirit World with regards to America's slipping moral standards and the dissolution of the family. As the family is the central unit of Paradise, it ought to be of paramount importance to us in this lifetime. Some of the rhetoric in this section might be of less interest to those of a less-conservative bent. A few critical comments: I know I must sound like a broken record, but I really wish an editor were available during the publishing process. Subject/verb disagreement, irrational use of punctuation (in particular commas and semicolons) detract from the message of "The Message." This is not a major work. How much time would it have taken to have an editor read the manuscript? The book cover is a little confusing. On the upper left corner we read: If a man were to die, and then return, what message might those from the world beyond send back to us? Technically, Richardson was never dead. A coma is not death. I'm not clear what he meant by this. And finally, the opening chapters, describing his family and their reaction to his accident, are just a bit too teary for me. The first 50 pages are devoted to pre-Spirit World-visit events. A little too much, in my opinion. Richardson nowhere mentions his Mormon connection. "The Message" is clearly meant for a wider audience. He is described as a "strong Christian," but that's about all that's said about his religious affiliation. Remarkably, this book is currently a Deseret Book bestseller! Why is "The Message" selling so well while "I Saw Heaven" fizzled into obscurity? Perhaps because Richardson had the wisdom to bring out a practical application for his experience, and then acted upon it. It puts flesh onto the event. I should say in closing that, during his visit to Paradise, Richardson was allowed to return to earth to invisibly visit his family. He was able to observe his wife driving her car, his children in school, etc. Much later, he would report this to his family. Understandably skeptical, Richardson then identifies the very song playing on the radio at the time he visited, and the fact that she was singing along with it. He mentions specific observances of his children. Are all confirmed by his family. If these reports are true, then Richardson may very well have experienced what he reports. If, indeed, Richardson is right in his understanding of the life to come and its relevance to this life, then "The Message" merits a wide audience. -- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis Manning" Subject: Re: [AML] LA Book Festival Date: 20 May 2001 10:26:30 -0600

Margaret--

I hope that you pursue "the biggies" like Oprah and her book club, after Book 2.  I had a coincidental experience last week.  I went hometeaching and delivered President Hinckley's opening message from Conference where he says:  "Let us be good people.  Let us be friendly people.  Let us be neighborly people.  Let us be what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints ought to be."

At any rate, I started discussing the importance for us to share ourselves, especially as active members of the Church, with those around us.  I thought of your experience at the LA Book Festival where hopefully you were able to break down some stereotypes about Mormons and Blacks, and I shared this.  Funny thing was, my hometeaching companion was Dell Blair.  Know him?  Yes, he's your brother.  A funny coincidence, indeed.

I told him I'd met you once, seen you several times at AML functions, and followed your posts on the list.

Travis K. Manning

"Men and women die; philosophers falter in wisdom, and
Christians in goodness: if any one you know has suffered
and erred, let him look higher than his equals for strength
to amend, and solace to heal." (Jane Eyre)


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- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Savage" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 21 May 2001 10:12:51 -0700 On the other hand. Dreamcatcher may very well be his worst book ever. I also believe that King is one of the best modern storytellers around. But this one was not "The Stand", and a good part of that was his reliance on backstory. -Jeff Jeffrey S. Savage CEO, Smartshop e-mail jsavage@smartshop.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 12:48 PM > > I'm currently reading Stephen King's _Dreamcatcher_. I'd say a third of > it is backstory, but it's not done in such a way as to draw attention to > itself. Of course, King has intentionally broken every known law in > fiction writing and still manages to sell books in the millions of > copies. I'm one of his devoted fans and will be until the Grim Reaper > snatches one of us from the planet. > > I've only read one Weyland book, and it was years ago, so I can't > comment on how well he does it. > > -- > Thom Duncan > Playwrights Circle > an organization of professionals > > -------------------------- Shameless Plug > ------------------------------- > Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! > > *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin > Payne > *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays > *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen > > For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer > festival: > http://www.playwrightscircle.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Roy CLARK, _Keeping Up Appearances_ Date: 21 May 2001 10:56:14 -0700 R.W. Rasband wrote: >[My uncle] now occasionally refers to my aunt as "Hyacinth". He can't be entirely like Richard if he does this where she can hear it. Richard would never, though he does get a few good shots in under his breath. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 21 May 2001 13:06:28 -0600 On Mon, 21 May 2001 13:22:34 EDT RichardDutcher@aol.com writes: > FEMALE WRITER WANTED. > > We (Zion Films / Excel Entertainment) are looking for a female, > returned missionary writer to do a spin off novelization of "God's > Army". A female is needed, I presume because either: 1. the book is from a female POV and male writers can't do that, or, 2. you want a female byline for marketing purposes. Well, I know a fine writer who uses the byline "Dolly Curtis" who can write pretty well from a female POV. If you're interested in "her," contact me through the address you see above. J. Scott Bronson Member of Playwrights Circle "An Organization of Professionals" www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 21 May 2001 13:23:52 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > You are proving my point, Katie. I'm not asking Jack Weyland to stop > being Jack Weyland. I'm asking him to be a better Jack Weyland with the > more experience he gets. No one is impressed with somebody who does the > same thing year after year and never improves. Unless his name is Edgar Rice Burroughs. Though a fan of some of his work, most of it I've not been able to get through. I understand, however, that there are thousands of fans who have read every word he produced and consider him a god. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Dutcher Joseph Smith Project Date: 21 May 2001 14:31:22 -0600 On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 08:31:08PM -0600, Margaret Young wrote: > I have no time to initiate a discussion, but I'd love to read what > others think of Richard Dutcher's newest project. Honestly, Dutcher > is so good at depicting focused, personal conflict that I am a > little nervous about his tackling the subject of Joseph Smith--a man > who is an icon to many. Both _God's Army_ and _Brigham City_ keep > within a pretty narrow time frame and tight focus. Since Dutcher has cast himself and Matthew Brown in both of his movies so far, can we expect Matthew Brown as Joseph Smith and Dutcher as Hyrum? This would fit well since Dutcher's character dies in _God's Army,_ Brown's character dies in _Brigham City,_ and now both can die in the Joseph Smith movie. -- Terry Jeffress | Only a mediocre writer is always at his | best. -- William Somerset Maugham AML Webmaster and | AML-List Review Archivist | - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 21 May 2001 17:36:28 -0700 (PDT) There's a really interesting article this week in the Salt Lake "City Weekly" (the alternative/free paper). It's titled "Clean Cuts", by Scott Renshaw. The subject is ostensibly "censorship in Utah", but there is a lot of good material about the challenges of making art in a very conservative culture. It's predictably liberal in its approach like most "City Weekly" articles, but its not obnoxious about it, unlike most "City Weekly" articles. There are interviews with Richard Dutcher of "Brigham City" and Kieth Merrill (who has some things to say about directing the crucifixion scene in "The Two Testaments"--how do you make it "appropriate" for younger viewers?) Also interviewed are the owner of the video store in American Fork who deletes objectionable scenes from Hollywood movies; and the author of "The Landlord", a locally published G-rated thriller about a serial killer. The article can be found at: http://www.slweekly.com ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeffrey Savage" Subject: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 21 May 2001 17:46:26 -0700 In discussing flawed Mormons, (sounds like some kind of less than desirable gemstone) it is interesting to consider whether the book is specifically written for Mormons (e.g. Tennis Shoes Among the Nephites) or for the general audience, but about Mormons (e.g. Lost Boys.) I recently finished a novel originally titled "Cutthroat" about a young LDS programmer and his wife who move from a small Mormon Community to Silicon Valley. I didn't intend it to be written primarily for an LDS audience, but rather the "Mormon-ness" played into the tensions brought on by a series of problems the programmer was having at work. Because the couple thought a certain way, they reacted differently to various stresses. An example of this is that he suspects his home teacher of spying on him. As a fairly recent convert, he is open to this as a possibility. She, as a life-long member, can not even consider it. After getting very little support from the GA publishers, I sent it to Covenant, where it is coming out this August as The Cutting Edge (I guess Cutthroat was too violent for an LDS book title :) ). But the flaws of the characters and how they are presented to the audience is "MUCH" different in the two books. I think that in general, a non-LDS reader expects the character to have flaws and you really spend much more time showing the reason why the character does not do a lot of the more worldly things. Whereas an LDS reader assumes that the character will obey the commandments and in order to make it "real" you need to show more flaws. So the same character can seem unbelievable to different audiences for two entirely opposite reasons. -Jeff Jeffrey Savage CEO, Smartshop P 408-778-8331 F 408-782-0761 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Summerhays Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 21 May 2001 18:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Okay, this is really not pertinent in anyway, but has been driving me nuts: In The Graduate, Benjamin and Mrs. Robinson do not conduct their affair while Benjamin is involved with Mrs. Robinson's daughter, Elaine. Benjamin breaks off the affair with Mrs. Robinson so he can be with Elaine. And Elaine and Benjamin are never engaged. She never says she'll marry him for sure. So. Anyway. Laura Summerhays __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Church's Copyright Project Date: 21 May 2001 19:14:12 -0500 At 12:08 PM 5/21/01 -0500, you wrote: >Apparently, because the Church feels strongly about maintaining some control >over the key documents of our history and the sacred contents of some of >them, there is now a push in place to "publish" as many of the Church >Archives as possible on limited-edition, high-quality CDs, with indexes of >images, title pages, etc. Short lists of absolutely critical documents, and >long lists of desirable documents, have been compiled--millions of potential >images. The project is so massive that no attempt is being made to publish >the papers of ordinary 19th century Church members (pioneer diaries, >correspondence, and >photographs)--it is more essential that documents from the Joseph Smith >period, the Brigham Young papers, and three million patriarchal blessings be >protected by copyright. It sounds like an enormous effort. [snip] After reading that (thanks, Jonathan!), I'm left wondering just how "limited" the limited editions will be? And whether, to fulfill the requirements of the law, they have to make them available on the open market or if they could hypothetically make the CDs and then "sell" them to the Granite Mountain vaults, thus removing them from access entirely instead of making them available to scholars? (Not that I am suggesting that this is what they plan to do, just thinking of a worst possible case for researchers. Aren't writers supposed to consider "What if . . . ?" scenarios? ;-) ) -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 21 May 2001 19:17:43 -0500 At 01:22 PM 5/21/01 -0400, you wrote: >FEMALE WRITER WANTED. > >We (Zion Films / Excel Entertainment) are looking for a female, returned >missionary writer to do a spin off novelization of "God's Army". Please me >call ASAP 344-8764. > >Thanks! >Emily Pearson >Managing Director >Zion Films Is this legal? I'd be interested in learning how gender is a "necessary condition of employment" for a writer . . . (Just curious. I guess I'm in a contrarian mood this evening . . . ) -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Irreantum2@cs.com Subject: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 21 May 2001 22:26:11 EDT The alternative newspaper _Salt Lake City Weekly_ has a highly interesting and unusually fair (for them) article on censorship and audiences in Mormonland. Some expected boneheaded examples are given, but they are uncomfortably valid and representative of the sad reality. But they actually quote some culturally on-the-ball Mormons too, with interviewees such as Richard Dutcher and tightrope-walking Kieth Merrill. The link is http://www.avenews.com/editorial/no/cw/feat/feat_010517.cfm (but the online version appears to leave out a good opening quote by Orson Scott Card that appears in the print version). Australia has something called "cultural cringe," defined as "a feeling that one's country's culture is inferior to that of other countries." I very often feel something similar as a Mormon, though I can't think of any organized religion's culture I would prefer. All I can say is, thank goodness (in general) for people like Orson Scott Card and Richard Dutcher. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 21 May 2001 20:35:28 -0600 On Mon, 21 May 2001 17:32:21 "Eric D. Snider" writes: > And if we're talking about movies, then anything involving > hairy barnacle Sean Connery and a younger > woman is automatically repulsive. I'll take exception to that. 1. I'm a hairy barnacle myself and it doesn't seem to be repulsive to ALL women. In fact, I know for certain that many women actually LIKE it. I don't think the opinion of a SWM film critic/reviewer should get in the way of their preferences. 2. I also know many women who (how shall I say this?) find Bro. Connery quite appealing despite his age, and who would (if the circumstances were obliging) develop a bond with the man. And there ain't a thing you or I can do about that ... except sit back and be jealous. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 22 May 2001 01:21:54 -0600 LuAnnStaheli wrote: > > Apparently no one needs to! We can't keep a Weyland book on the shelves of > our classrooms and libraries at the junior high. probably 3/4 of my girls > read at least one Weyland book each term. Kids don't care about P.O.V. , > styles, etc. They just want a good story. I'm amazed that so many people seem to be defending mediocrity. No, the kids don't care, but their parents should. Their parents should care that they get exposed to quality writing so the kids can grow up knowing what the heck it is. Do you honestly want your kids to think someone who doesn't know about POV or how to handle backstory is a good writer? I don't. I let my daughter read Goosebumps, but I make no bones about what quality of writing I think it is. In the meantime, I keep exposing her to more challenging things, so she doesn't remain at the level of Goosebumps for her whole life. Why can't Jack Weyland tell the stories these kids like, but using basic literary expertise? Why is that request causing such a backlash among you supposed lovers of good literature? I don't get it! Clue me in. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] John BENNION, _Falling Toward Heaven_ (Review) Date: 22 May 2001 01:37:55 -0600 Alan Rex Mitchell wrote: > While I absolutely agree with the above comment, reading it made me wonder > if the incompatibility was something Bennion was driving at. I took it as > symbolism of a relationship encumbering the author and Mormonism. > Is there a message here? > Think symbolism! Your analysis may be correct, and what Bennion was aiming for. But my personal literary value system places verisimilitude over symbolism. If I can't embed my symbolism in a way that feels real and honest, then I don't think it should be in there. Otherwise I'll be calling the book a literary golem in a review. This looks like it may threaten to resurrect the debate about didacticism in literature. From my point of view on that debate, if Bennion is doing what you believe he is doing, then he is being didactic. Ill-fitting symbolism to make a point? Consciously sticking a message in there? Yep, didacticism. This appears to be an unintended object lesson on why didacticism doesn't work so good. I didn't think of Bennion's book as didactic as I read it. But if he was consciously lacing the thing with messages and symbolism, the result turned out to be what I'd expect from a didactic book: it didn't reach me emotionally. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 22 May 2001 08:04:27 -0600 on 5/21/01 11:53 AM, Stephen Goode at rexgoode@msn.com wrote: > Being acquainted with a host of people who are working to overcome > distasteful and very un-Mormonlike addictions, a large part of the struggle > is the struggle to feel like they fit in with the perfectly plastic > personages they meet at church. Stephen, I am not disagreeing, just want to understand. How would you define what you--with pleasing alliteration, no less!--refer to as "perfectly plastic personages." Steve P. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Dutcher Joseph Smith Project Date: 22 May 2001 08:51:10 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > William Morris wrote: > > > I think that if I was making the film, I would leave > > the first vision and the translation of the Book of > > Mormon alone---I mean, they'd get referenced somehow > > to set up the opening of the film, but I'd do the bulk > > of the film from, say, Zion's camp to the martyrdom. > > I just thing that that part of the story is too iconic > > to deal with easily. I'm not saying that it's 'too > > sacred' and shouldn't be portrayed for propriety's > > sake or anything like that. Perhaps it's because I > > think that that period of Joseph's life is too firmly > > pre-conceived in people's minds. > > I'm just the opposite. I'd rather concentrate on the beginnings, the > iconic stories, precisely because people have firmly preconceived > notions about them. I'd like to make them less iconic and remind people > that they were real events that really happened. Which probably means > people would accuse me of treating them irreverently, because I didn't > depict them "iconically." In my never-to-be-produced screenplay on Joseph Smith, I battled over this exact thing until ultimately settling on portraying the First Vision (though not the standard one; my scene depicted the earlier accounts of the Vision with angels -- there was no Father and Son saying "Do not join other churches." -- I felt this was historically accurate because all the evidence shows a gradual unfolding of the significance of the Vision. Joseph didn't walk out of the Sacred Grove at the age of 14 with a complete understanding of the nature of God and of other churches, despite what we teach as missionaries.) Since my script's audience all along had been the general public, I struggled with how to make the Joseph Smith story appealing to non-members. Seeing Malcolm X, where Malcolm has a very matter of fact vision of his religions founder convinced me that the best way to do such scenes for non-members is just to do them. At the same time, I skipped the vision of Moroni and jumped from the First Vision to Joseph and Oliver translating the gold plates. Like science fiction where only one amazing thing should happen per story, I believe showing too many visions would weaken the presentation. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 22 May 2001 08:57:31 -0600 Gary Davis wrote: > > Thom Duncan wrote of Kieth Merrill: >This is a man who said that the > film "In and Out" is bad because it promotes the gay lifestyle. Nothing > could be further from the truth.< > > Oh pleeeze! Anyone who doesn't recognize that Hollywood has a big time > gay agenda is simply not paying attention. Check out "Victor Victoria", > "My Best Friend's Wedding", "Big Daddy" or any of a dozen TV shows this > past season with major gay characters. Plain and simple, they assault > our values at every turn. That's precisely why we need people like Mitch > Davis and Richard Dutcher. If trying to teach us tolerance for people who have different lifestyles than the majority of Americans is an agenda, then I will agree with you. If you mean to suggest that Hollywood somehow wants us all to turn gay, then I must disagree. We wouldn't be having this discussion, if all those movies were about blacks. But, alas, gays are still a minority it's considered all right to bash. I don't know about Mitch Davis, but I don't remember Richard Dutcher declaring himself a film maker with any other agenda than to make good films within a Mormon perspective. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 22 May 2001 10:28:15 -0600 > Does anyone else find it fascinating that Richard Dutcher's call for authors > for the _God's Army_ novelization specifies FEMALE? My understanding of the situation is that there will be TWO novels: one a direct novelization of the movie and the other a spin-off novel featuring one of the female missionary as protagonist. I'm pretty sure they already have their writer for the first novel (and, yes, he is male), so it makes sense that this call is for a female, returned-missionary. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] 2-3 posts/day Date: 23 May 2001 00:36:09 -0500 Folks, The heavy volume is continuing on the List (which--don't get me wrong--is a good thing, in my opinion). I therefore need to advise that I have started once again limiting individual people to roughly 2-3 posts a day. If you have a lot to say--particularly if it's all on the same thread--I advise that you combine your posts into a single message. Thanks for your understanding. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: [AML] Personal News Date: 22 May 2001 20:43:02 -0700 (PDT) I would like to announce the birth of Jonathan Samuel Young on Sunday, May 20. Also, we close on a house next week and will be proceeding with our move to Pocatello. (This upcoming move is the reason I had to resign from my position as Secretary for AML after only a few months.) Obviously, we've been busy, and I miss participating in all of the great conversations on AML-List. I look forward to checking in again when things calm down. Meanwhile, I miss you guys! ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Katrina Duvalois" Subject: RE: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 22 May 2001 19:21:33 -0700 This is not for a novelization of God's Army, but to the sequel. They want it written from a returned FEMALE missionary because it's the viewpoint of Sister Fronk. I know, because I called. Wish me luck. Katrina D. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Katrina Duvalois" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 22 May 2001 19:30:08 -0700 I'm actually surprised at you all. You don't remember this story very well. What is disgusting is that Mrs. Robinson is a friend of HIS PARENTS. And the daughter does not become his _girlfriend_ until the middle (or end, rather) of the affair. Actually, he ends the affair because he decides he's in love with her daughter after having been coerced into dating by both sets of parents... (a kind of _wouldn't it be cute_ kind of thing for the unknowing spouses/parents). She does not become his fiance' (if you can call it that) until she runs out of the church with him in her wedding dress. Am I the only one that actually SAW it? Beside the point, I think the original comment was that the infamous camera angle on the _nude_ Mrs. Robinson. That was magnificent. Now a Mormon Orson Welles...now that would be something. Or even Frank Capra... Katrina D. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Hi Date: 22 May 2001 15:39:26 -0700 Welcome to the list! >I'm looking forward to the discussions on this list. And I hope that at >some point I'll know what I'm talking about well enough to jump in. > >Anna Wight That's never stopped me before...jump in! - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Hi Date: 22 May 2001 16:45:51 -0600 Anna, I've been on the list for over a year now. (I'm not exactly sure how long but it was before my 17 month old was born.) Any way, I am a homemaker and never been published at all. I have several stories that I am working on but none are finished yet. I guess I should consintrate on one until it is done but with five young kids getting any writting done is not easy. (Two of those are under 2. I just had my youngest May 1st.) I also feel out of my league. Most of the time I just lurk. But I am learning and someday I may be able to get into some of the discussions. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Hi Date: 22 May 2001 18:37:53 -0400 Welcome. You should feel right at home. There are quite a few who fit the homemaker description. And even more who are struggling writers. In fact, you've published more than some of us, myself included. We're all pretty good about speaking our minds, though I've heard that some of the more heated discussion is taken to other locations. :o) Jump in. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else's. And, if you aren't knowledgeable about any of the topics, start one that interests you. Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 22 May 2001 16:13:08 -0600 On Mon, 21 May 2001 11:52:00 -0700 (PDT) William Morris writes: > I would > love to read a novel with a protaganist that is a > pretty darn good and faithful Mormon, but struggles > with some of the 'lesser' issues (it makes me nervous > to try and classify sinnings since all sin can be > repented from) like how to appropriately demonstrate > rightous indignation. Or how to motivate others while > still respecting free agency. Or how to balance > learning and humility. How to fine tune a relatively > rightous live. I want the flaws to be there, but to > be in a minor key. I do think, however, that this > kind of literature is incredibly difficult to write as > compelling drama. [snip] > Anybody have examples of Mormon literature they think > fit my preference? Anybody have this same preference > and have some ideas about how to succesfully capture > it? Since I was brazen enough to like my own play, I'll further my audaciousness by claiming to have written exactly such a novel. I have sent it to five major LDS publishers. One rejected it based on the fact that they don't publish books that "deal primarily with children." This indicates that they didn't read past the first scene; it takes place in a primary class. The book is definitely NOT kid's lit. One rejected it without reading it; not doing fiction at this time. This after I had spoken to the editor at a conference and asked if they were accepting fiction submissions at this time. "Sure. Send it in." Right. The other two rejected it because they couldn't figure out how to market the thing. They liked it; thought it was well written with realistic characters and all that good stuff, they just didn't think they could sell it. The fifth publisher still has it. Has had it for seven months. I'm not counting my chickens. Frankly, for three years plus I have been reading on this list how we all want this kind of book, but, let's face it, the publishers lurking here KNOW that of the between 200 and 300 people on this list -- of which maybe 30 or so are regular posters -- only a portion of them feel the way you and I do. So, that just ain't enough potential buyers for the books we want them to publish. But, as Thom has pointed out recently, it wasn't so long ago that these same publishers were saying, "Mormons don't read fiction." I understand Tyler's point as well, these things take time. And I do admit my book has some "heavy" qualities as one of the rejecters put it. There is some violence. Not much, but the one scene is fairly gruesome. And I go pretty deep into the minds of my POVs. Deep enough that we find out that even the most devout people can harbor despicable thoughts and behaviors without realizing it. Perhaps my friend Dave Wolverton speaks for a majority of readers when he said to me, after reading the book, "I'm not sure I want to look at myself that closely." So, maybe the time isn't right for these kinds of books to get wide publication. I don't know. One of these days I'll pull a Kemp and just publish it myself. Of course, I'll have to get Kenny to show me how that's done, because I'm woefully stupid about the technicalities if such a venture. J. Scott Bronson Member of Playwrights Circle "An Organization of Professionals" www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 22 May 2001 13:30:38 -0600 Rachel >Nunes writes mostly to Mormon women, but only Mormon certain Mormon >women (Mormon feminists, for instance, are probably not going to like >her books). Interesting. I recently twitted Rachel by telling her, "I looked at the end of this novel of yours to see how it came out, and I find that the heroine winds up a pregnant Mormon housewife. You call that a happy ending?" Well, now I'm reading the book, and I find that those three things I mentioned are all exactly what the character needs to make her happy. (Of course, I was always in favor of the Mormon part.) The novel is very well done, full of character conflicts and natural emotions. The characters are flawed Mormons, as we've talked about, and they learn a great deal in the process of suffering for their mistakes. I think it's a fine book. (I can't tell you the name, because for some reason Covenant gives all its romance books names that sound alike. I think that if I were to publish an LDS romance, I'd insist that the title not contain the words "Love," "Promise," or "Forever.") I wouldn't want the life that Rachel gives her characters, but I can still enjoy her books and learn from them. This one is making me think about several important issues, particularly forgiveness and atonement. JoAnn Jolley's novel, "Secrets of the Heart," had a very well-drawn protagonist who was a hard-edged career woman who also learned a lot in the process of suffering for her mistakes. That book made me think about issues like preparing for the next life and not getting drawn into worldliness. As a Mormon feminist, I found both of these authors worth reading. (I just skim over the parts about how wonderful it is to stay home all day with a houseful of kids.) barbara hume Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: [AML] Standoffish Youth (was: Mormons as Flawed) Date: 22 May 2001 11:58:50 -0700 Responding to me, Jacob Proffitt wrote: > I'd be a little careful about calling our youth cliquish. I'm not > doubting that it can happen, but from my experience, a High Schooler's > "standoffish" tends to equate with "doesn't go to our parties" and "isn't > participating in our activities". In my High School, the LDS members > weren't considered standoffish. I was. The other LDS members went > to the parties and participated in the "activities". They were friends > with each other as well as friends with others. But they weren't > friends with me. Because I was "standoffish". Which is to say, I > wouldn't drink alcohol. And I wouldn't fool around. And I wouldn't > sneak out after curfew (well, except for prom night which turned out > alright but probably shouldn't have). I'm not sure that I'm understanding your story, Jacob. Are you saying that the LDS members in your high school who were *not* standoffish were instead participating with nonmembers in drinking alcohol and fooling around? In which state did you attend high school? Was it a rural, suburban or urban area? > Many activities deemed appropriate by teen peers are directly counter to > gospel standards. Not hanging out with people who drink alcohol can > equal, in many High Schools, not hanging out with non-members. Which > strikes many non-members as, well, holier-than-thou and too-good-for-you > and cliquish and any number of other adjectives designed to make > sinning people feel better about what they are doing. > > Personally, I'd just as soon have my children be considered cliquish than > have them hanging out with certain types of other kids. Not that they > should only hang out with Mormons, but they should certainly be hanging > out only with good kids with strong moral standards who won't pressure > them to drink, see bad movies, or engage in inappropriate physical > relationships. Unfortunately, that standard could easily translate to > "only hanging out with Mormons"--a circumstance I will not blame my > children for. I understand what you're saying. But I wasn't making a generalization that all our youth are cliquish. I was just recounting what was said to me, about LDS youth in one specific high school in one specific unnamed city. The conversation occurred back in the '80s, so I may not be quoting my classmate exactly. However, the reason I believed my classmate's description of LDS kids in her high school as cliquish was because I myself had observed, and experienced, that same phenomenon among LDS young adults in that area. I'm not talking about LDS YA's being standoffish toward non-members. I'm talking about LDS YA's being cliquish and standoffish toward other LDS who were not from that area. I'd noticed it in 2 different wards in that stake. I'd even talked about it in sacrament meeting in the area singles ward a few years before. (I'd asked the congregation to imagine an experiment, in which for 4 weeks in a row, one would stand near the pulpit after sacrament meeting ended, and just watch the people in the chapel as they adjourned to their classes. Would one see the same groups or "clusters" of people every week, sitting together and walking together? [I used the word "cluster" because I thought the word "clique" was too strong.] Would the composition of those "clusters" fluctuate, or would they always consist of the same people? And every week would one see the same individuals here and there, sitting by themselves, who never seemed to be part of any cluster?) So I presumed that what my classmate had observed was real. So what should one do while talking to a nonmember, if she starts telling you about a disappointing or negative experience she's had with a Mormon? My preference is to listen, and try to empathize and understand her story, her point of view, her emotions. If indeed she had an unnecessarily negative experience with a Mormon -- however minor that experience was -- then my act of listening, as a Mormon, to her feelings becomes a gift that I can give her. It's a small step toward putting things right. It's a step toward healing, and reconciliation. (I'm not saying that I'd join her in criticizing or backbiting members of the Church. But it is possible to express sympathy and empathy without saying a judging word about anyone.) Keeping oneself unspotted from the sins of the world (or the high school) is an important principle. So is loving one's neighbor. The trick is being able to follow both principles at the same time. To be friendly without being haughty. To be as well-known for our interpersonal compassion, as for our non-smoking, non-drinking, and non-carousing. Notwithstanding all of the above, I suspect that the tendency toward "cliquishness" or "exclusivity" is a function of socio-economic status. That was my observation after working with LDS YA's in a middle-to-lower class area, and then moving to the upper-to-upper-middle class area I've described. The LDS young adults in the first area were friendlier, and more accepting of and interested in newcomers, than those in the second, more affluent, area. I was very struck by this. I'm not sure why this was, though I have some theories. (To their credit, though, when I talked about this to individuals in the second area, they did not get defensive, but wanted to do the right thing.) Regards, Frank Maxwell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 22 May 2001 10:19:27 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: > > Your description of the methodology suggests that you are > thinking of _Effective Mormon Families: How They See > Themselves_ by William G. Dyer and Phillip R. Kunz (or, > perhaps, the slightly revised version entitled _10 Critical > Keys for Highly Effective Mormon Families_). Dyer and Kunz > "wrote to selected stake presidents . . . and asked them to > identify fifteen families they felt were `the best families > in their church jurisdiction.'" (p. 3.) > > >Guess what he found out. These pillars of the stake broke > >virtually every stereotype we've come to expect from such > >families. In the majority of cases, for instances, family > >home evening (as an organized lesson) was rare. > > Dyer and Kunz found that 66% of respondents "always or > usually held a weekly family home evening" (p. vii). They > state that this 66% probably only includes those families > holding a "pre-formatted `meeting'" (p. 20). I've never read the book, thought I commented on it. I knew one of the families in the study. They never had family home evening, in even an informal manner. I realize I overstated my remembrance of the statistics. But what I had hoped to show by my comment was not that a specific percentage did not hold family home evenings, but that some did. Okay, it's not the majority, but the fact that *a* percentage (33%) did not hold family home evening as we have been counseled to do -- and yet were still considered pillars of the Church -- is significant. > >By some, films were enjoyed because of their artistic > >qualities, not because of their ratings. > > Perhaps I have simply overlooked it, but I can't find anywhere > in their book that Dyer and Kunz report these effective families > saying this. The only thing related to movies and ratings I > found is where Dyer mentions that some of the students in the > BYU Stake he presides over say "everyone misses some meetings or > goes to an R-rated movie. It's no big deal". Dyer and Kunz > reply: "While we might agree about . . . the lack of > earthshaking consequences for going to an occasional R-rated > movie, what we do see--very clearly--is that relativity is a > slippery slide. Young people who don't have clear boundaries on > their behavior and who keep waffling about what is or isn't > important can be backed over the edge into serious transgression > in a remarkably brief period of time." (p. 166.) Again, I was probably projecting onto the book the reality in the life of the family I knew was part of the study. They saw R-rated movies, though not as any attempt at disloyalty, but because the films had received good reviews, and they considered themselves connoisseurs of art. > [...] > >If the program (e.g., home teaching, early morning scripture > >study,) didnt' work for a particular family, they replaced it > >with something else. > > Dyer and Kunz report that 93% of these effective families > "always accepted Church jobs" (p. vii). I would imagine that > that includes the job of being a home teacher. Or did you > mean that these effective families stopped letting *their* home > teachers visit *them*? > No, I was lead to understand that, among those surveyed, their efforts at home teaching weren't always perfect. Despite the fact that the real statistics are different than my exaggerated ones doesn't change the very interesting fact that a significant portion of those people we may consider "perfect" actually aren't, and are in reality more like us. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: [AML] Book of Job (was: Mormons as Flawed) Date: 22 May 2001 12:49:21 -0700 Ivan wrote, citing Job in the Old Testament, as an example of a man to whom the adjective "perfect" is applied: > (Okay - so he complained a lot, but I don't buy the argument he's a > mythical figure, or that the tale is allegorical). You can read my analysis of the arguments for and against Job's historicity at Kurt Neumiller's "LDS Seminar" website, http://www.cybcon.com/%7Ekurtn/exegesis.html specifically at http://www.cybcon.com/~kurtn/ldssemv2n32.txt I try to be fair to both sides of the issue. Regards, Frank Maxwell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Devil's Advocate Date: 22 May 2001 16:18:45 -0600 On Sun, 20 May 2001 08:45:05 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" writes: > I have been accused on occasion of being a devil's advocate. So I > decided, since I've been accused of it anyway, I might as well do > some real advocating for the devil... [snip] > Orson Scott Card: "I am the devil." > > D. Michael Martindale: "The devil's making me take over the AML > writers conference for science fiction fans. No wait, that wasn't the > devil, that was Scott Bronson." I just can't get out of that other Scott's shadow. scott bronson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Hi Date: 22 May 2001 16:31:09 -0600 REWIGHT wrote: > > I've been thoroughly enjoying reading every one's posts the past several > days since I've joined. And I feel completely out of my league here. > > I'm a homemaker and a struggling writer. Struggling, because at this point > I've only been published once - in a Chicken Soup book. I have completed a > novel and sent it off, hoping to get some positive reaction, and I'm in the > process of writing another novel as well as trying to sell several > children's stories, and a few short stories. > > I don't think I'll ever say what the novel is though. What if it did by > some miracle get published? I might have to bear the negative statements by > the critics on this list, for it's no great literary feat, just a story > that possessed me until I told it. If you want to be a serious novelist, start developing a thick skin now. Believe, the day will happen when someone somewhere will read something you've written and hate it. > I'm looking forward to the discussions on this list. And I hope that at > some point I'll know what I'm talking about well enough to jump in. I've never let my ignorance stop me from posting. You shouldn't either. Several times I've had to publicly eat crow because of dumb stuff I've said. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 22 May 2001 17:34:03 -0500 > >But she said that none of them were her friends. The Mormon > >kids were snobbish, she said, and just hung out with each other. I told > >her I was sorry to hear that. >I myself had moved to that general area, >I'd observed a similar > >cliqueishness, or exclusivity, in the LDS young adults who were raised > >there. While teenagers can be cliquish about anything, I think we all need to overcome maybe our natural shyness in some cases to not do this in adulthood. I'm at a large university in Illinois, and a few years ago, I was looking for better housing than where I was. A colleague of mine suggested a community just outside of town as a possibility for a grad student family, but then backed off with, "But no, you wouldn't want to live there. There's this religious group there that only associates with themselves." The religious group is of course a major segment of our ward. (At least one ward member says that the non-LDS people there don't talk to her, either, I must add.) >Not hanging out with people who drink alcohol can equal, >in many High Schools, not hanging out with non-members. Sorry, I can't agree with this. Maybe in some high schools, but "many" is a bit too much. My experience living in the northeast, the south, and the midwest (and meeting my husband's California, non-LDS-friends) is that there are people all over who drink and people all over who don't (okay, I'll grant that most do!), and it doesn't necessarily correspond to who is LDS and who isn't. None of my friends in high school were LDS and while they may not have had any prohibitions against drinking alcohol, none of our activities ever included it. Okay, now to make this related to literature, so that my post doesn't get booted off for irrelevance...Actually, I think it's important. First, as we've said, Mormons are just as flawed as everyone else. We need to get over this fear to admit it. Second, members being scared of the "evil" influences of nonmembers, and nonmembers being scared of the "evil" influences of those strange Mormons, both need to relax and realize that we have a lot in common. While I'm interested in LDS literature produced for ourselves, I'm also highly interested in literature for a national audience that is at least peripherally about us. (Meaning, in a positive sense; not the expose type.) Maybe one reason why this vein is so sparse is because we can't get over this feeling of spiritual isolationism. I don't want to say that our doctrine is or should be watered down to look like everyone else's. I'm fine with being "peculiar" in that regard. But, what we believe and what we do are not always the same things. I think most of us and our neighbors have times when we try to be more than we are. I think there are so many ways we can open ourselves up in literature that build on common concerns of everyone else around us. We don't need to hide our Mormonness, and we don't need to flaunt it. If anyone has any good examples of LDS writers doing this on a national market, I'd be interested. Rose Green _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 21 May 2001 22:06:12 -0600 >There's a really interesting article this week in the >Salt Lake "City Weekly" (the alternative/free paper). >It's titled "Clean Cuts", by Scott Renshaw. The >subject is ostensibly "censorship in Utah", but there >is a lot of good material about the challenges of >making art in a very conservative culture. It's >predictably liberal in its approach like most "City >Weekly" articles, but its not obnoxious about it, >unlike most "City Weekly" articles. There are >interviews with Richard Dutcher of "Brigham City" and >Kieth Merrill (who has some things to say about >directing the crucifixion scene in "The Two >Testaments"--how do you make it "appropriate" for >younger viewers?) Also interviewed are the owner of >the video store in American Fork who deletes >objectionable scenes from Hollywood movies; and the >author of "The Landlord", a locally published G-rated >thriller about a serial killer. The article can be >found at: > >http://www.slweekly.com > As a side note, I know Scott Renshaw pretty well. He was a film critic for the Park City paper, whatever it's called, for a while, until it folded last year. So I saw him at the press screenings all the time and hung out with him now and then. He is a very, very good writer, regardless of whether you agree with him, and this City Weekly thing is no exception. I strongly recommend this article, and if you're interested in intelligent film criticism (albeit mostly of films from last year and before, since he's no longer reviewing full-time), visit his site at http://www.inconnect.com/~renshaw . Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: [AML] Sarah Andrews (Author) Date: 22 May 2001 17:44:13 -0500 A while ago, someone discussed a book by Sarah Andrews, who is apparently not LDS but who deals with the church in at least two books now. I can see why the author would do a mystery in Utah if the main character is a geologist (she goes to a dinosaur symposium), but I find it interesting that she's chosen to keep her character around Salt Lake. It's obvious the character, Em Hansen, doesn't really understand what the church is about (I'd say clueless with regards to religion, actually), but she does know what the standards of the church are all about. I find the whole setting-in-Utah-among-important-Mormon-characters thing unusual. It's not an expose, it's not a conversion story (although there will be much fodder for creating tension if Em really does marry into her boyfriend's extremely active LDs family), it's just a book about Mormons who are just living. Weird. I know it's just a mystery, but I've never read anything that took quite that slant (especially not by a non-Mormon). Anyone know why Andrews would choose to make the capital of Mormondom the setting for her series? Rose Green _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] MN New Products: Mormon History and Doctrine: Kent Date: 22 May 2001 23:56:26 -0500 At 10:27 PM 5/20/01 -0500, Mormon News wrote: >Arise & Sine Forth: Talks from the 2000 Women's Conference >Deseret Book >Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject and Authors $44.95 > Sounds somewhat tangential to me . . . -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 21 May 2001 23:23:26 -0600 >At 01:22 PM 5/21/01 -0400, you wrote: >>FEMALE WRITER WANTED. >> >>We (Zion Films / Excel Entertainment) are looking for a female, returned >>missionary writer to do a spin off novelization of "God's Army". Please me >>call ASAP 344-8764. >> >>Thanks! >>Emily Pearson >>Managing Director >>Zion Films > > >Is this legal? I'd be interested in learning how gender is a >"necessary condition of employment" for a writer . . . > >(Just curious. I guess I'm in a contrarian mood this evening . . . ) > They're not looking for an employee. They're looking for someone to write a book. I don't see it being any different from a director saying he wants to audition only women for a particular role, or only African-Americans for another role, or whatever. I'm more curious about what this book is going to be. Do they mean it's going to be "God's Army," retold with sister missionaries, like how Neil Simon did that awful female version of "The Odd Couple"? Curious indeed. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Dutcher Joseph Smith Project Date: 22 May 2001 23:30:02 -0600 > Since Dutcher has cast himself and Matthew Brown in both of his movies > so far, can we expect Matthew Brown as Joseph Smith and Dutcher as > Hyrum? This would fit well since Dutcher's character dies in _God's > Army,_ Brown's character dies in _Brigham City,_ and now both can die > in the Joseph Smith movie. > > -- > Terry Jeffress We are starting to catch on to Dutcher's tricks: the foreshadowing is that both will be baptized. Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Hi Date: 22 May 2001 23:30:45 -0600 Welcome Anna! > I don't think I'll ever say what the novel is though. What if it did by > some miracle get published? I might have to bear the negative > statements by > the critics on this list, for it's no great literary feat, just a story > that possessed me until I told it. > Just don't read any posts by Jeff Needle or D. Michael and you'll be okay! Seriously, the critic states an opinion so that other people can have something to dialogue with her about. The critic doesn't have the last word. As Weyland's fans have shown, the $$$$$ has the last word. Gae Lyn Henderson > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 23 May 2001 00:06:42 -0600 D. Michael > Martindale > I'm amazed that so many people seem to be defending mediocrity. No, the > kids don't care, but their parents should. Their parents should care > that they get exposed to quality writing so the kids can grow up knowing > what the heck it is. Do you honestly want your kids to think someone who > doesn't know about POV or how to handle backstory is a good writer? I > don't. One of my sons read every Orson Scott Card book and pretty much ever other science fiction book he could get his hands on. He is an enriched soul as far as I can see. Several of my other sons don't even read (much). If they picked up Weyland I would probably be thrilled just that they were using their decoding skills. But then I can't play basketball so what can I say? (However, I admit I would hand them _Ender's Game_ a thousand times over a Weyland novel.) > > Why can't Jack Weyland tell the stories these kids like, but using basic > literary expertise? Why is that request causing such a backlash among > you supposed lovers of good literature? I don't get it! Clue me in. Everybody loves to hate a critic. And besides it is not "nice" to criticize in Mormon culture in general. Eloise Bell points that out in her essay. And she lets us know that because we are so busy being nice, we may risk becoming less than human. I agree with your critique of Weyland. Criticism is the only way to keep everything from becoming a mish-mash of mediocrity. If every novel were judged equally fine, then I'm afraid, truly afraid, that we wouldn't nurture a culture that could create the exquisite nuances of thought and perception that someone like, say, John Bennion puts into _Falling Toward Heaven_. (I've got to work on my own review of that novel . But first I have to see if you survive the critic's backlash!). > -- Gae Lyn - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Marilyn BROWN, _Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_ (Review) Date: 23 May 2001 01:02:24 -0600 Morgan Adair wrote: > Brown has made an effort to make her story historically accurate, but sometimes accepts rumors that put the immigrants in a negative light. Take, for example, the rumor that the "Missouri Wildcats" poisoned a spring, resulting in the death of livestock. Proctor Robinson died after skinning one of the dead cattle, the poison supposedly being transmitted when he rubbed his eye. This rumor circulated after the massacre as an example of the outrages committed by immigrants traveling through Utah that incited the Mormon anger that was misdirected against the Fanchers. The authoritative source on the massacre, Juanita Brooks's _The Mountain Meadows Massacre_, notes that a much more likely explanation is that Robinson died of a bacterial infection from skinning a decaying carcass, and that the cattle died of natural causes. Nevertheless, Brown treats Robinson's death as if caused by the Missourians. Having read the book, I have to disagree with this characterization. Brown does not treat the death as if caused by the Missourians, nor does she accept the rumors that the Missourians poisoned a spring. Her _characters_ accept those things, which is historically true. Brown is clear in her notes that the accusations are rumors, were not proven, and gives an alternate possible explanation of the poisonings. > In depicting the Massacre, Brown could take a lesson from Spielberg's _Saving Private Ryan_. The opening scene, perhaps the most effective depiction of the horror of war ever made, succeeds by giving many details in rapid succession. In comparison, Brown has given us a wide-angle view. This is an artistic choice. It might have been interesting (and horrifying) to take the approach you suggest. But it doesn't fall under the classification of "ought to." Brown simply wasn't telling a "Saving Private Ryan" sort of tale, just like many World War II movies did not tell such a tale. Someone else will have to write the "Saving Private Ryan" version of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I thought Brown's description was sufficiently horrifying as it was to communicate that a horrific thing was happening. > In telling the Mountain Meadows story from the Mormon point of view, Marilyn Brown has told us that this horrible thing happened, that good people did it, and somehow they continued to be good people. I'm confident that the answer to how this could happen could be found by unraveling the complexities of human nature, but I haven't found that answer yet. I felt like Brown gave us some good insight into how it happened, showing us how things escalated and why good people did a horrible thing in a horrible situation that went wrong where they had to make split-second decisions on what to do about it. You may want to argue that her answer is inaccurate. But I don't think you can argue that it was absent. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 23 May 2001 01:49:51 -0600 "R.W. Rasband" wrote: >=20 > There's a really interesting article this week in the > Salt Lake "City Weekly" (the alternative/free paper). > It's titled "Clean Cuts", by Scott Renshaw. The > subject is ostensibly "censorship in Utah" > http://www.slweekly.com Very good article. If you skipped it the first time, read it now. I find it interesting that, even though the newspaper is considered liberal, and some of you know that I am far from that, I agreed with the attitude of the article more than with squeaky-clean-murder-mystery author Ken Merrill or nasty-bits-video-editor Ray Lines. Richard Dutcher, on the other hand, was his usual rocking self. Let me entice you with a few tidbits from the article that I think will be food for thought for some of our discussions: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "I think choosing our entertainment or art based on the rating of the MPAA is ridiculous," Dutcher says. "Purely from a Mormon standpoint, I don=92t think what President Benson meant to do [with his 1986 admonition= ] was to have everyone surrender their agency to the MPAA. "Since [1986]," he adds, "the only thing that=92s been said officially by the church leadership is to avoid inappropriate films. And that lays a greater burden on the viewer." "I don=92t think you can illustrate morality without illustrating immorality," Dutcher contends. "It=92s an artistic impossibility. It=92s very possible for a well-meaning story-teller to sacrifice his integrity and tell lies in order not to offend." He also reacts bluntly to the quoted statements from the students at the anti-pornography rally. "It seems to indicate we=92re raising a generatio= n of idiots," he says. "It=92s ridiculous to claim that R-rated movies are pornography. It seems to be something that=92s just happened over the pas= t decade or so, this idea that all movies or television should be for everyone." "I hear this debate a lot, over whether to include violence at all, to include sexuality at all," Dutcher says. "I find that a strange argument to come from religious people. The perfect storyteller--God--told his stories with violence and human sexuality, and all those stories are told for a reason. "I think remaining innocent is so valuable, but I think it=92s inherently impossible to do so," he adds. "You=92re going to fail." =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D All I can add to what he says is, "Amen, brother, amen!" There is also provocative information on what the Joseph Smith film may be rated, and some eyebrow-raising quotes from "Legacy" and "Testaments" filmmaker Keith Merrill, but you'll have to read the article for those. --=20 D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths=20 Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] John BENNION, _Falling Toward Heaven_ (Review) Date: 23 May 2001 09:14:08 -0600 > But my >personal literary value system places verisimilitude over symbolism. If >I can't embed my symbolism in a way that feels real and honest, then I >don't think it should be in there. Otherwise I'll be calling the book a >literary golem in a review. I think that symbolism becomes evident to the writer as he or she develops the fictional piece. I don't think it works as well to invent symbolism and stick it in there as it does to write the story, then look at it to see what there is within it that functions symbolically. Your beliefs and values inevitably surface if your're writing honestly. Then you may need to do some reworking to emphasize the symbolic connections without hitting the reader over the head with them. barbara hume Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 23 May 2001 08:42:42 -0700 Steve P. asked: >I am not disagreeing, just want to understand. How would you define what >you--with pleasing alliteration, no less!--refer to as "perfectly plastic >personages." Steve, Thanks for the question. I operate as a 12-step sponsor to Mormon men struggling with pornography addiction, and I also run several forums for Mormons who are either sex addicts or spouses of sex addicts. I also run a support group for LDS Family Services for men struggling with same-sex attraction. One thing I have heard often is how people in these various situations feel that they do not fit in at church, because everyone else seems to be so perfect, or to have a perfect life compared to theirs. This is true whether it is an addict, the wife of an addict, or a variety of other people in difficult circumstances. It is not uncommon for people to compare their insides to other peoples' outsides, and we often only show our outsides at church. Statistically, there are probably three percent of people in your ward who deal with some form of same-sex attraction. Perhaps they're not active, but they probably are. An even larger percent will have problems with pornography. Some of the men will beat their wives, meaning some of the wives will be victims of abuse. Many will have been abused or molested as children. Most will have problems with something, and a few will have come from ideal, wonderful families. You wouldn't be able to tell which were which by just looking at them. We all shine ourselves up very well so that we'll glow when we arrive at the chapel. I'm not saying this is all bad. I do believe the Lord deserves our best clothes and best efforts at grooming to partake of the most sacred ordinance of the sacrament. However, at the moment we partake, he also deserves the only sacrifice he finds acceptable--a broken heart and a contrite spirit. It took me a long time to get used to seeing the flawed side of Mormons, often highly respectable Mormons. When I started being a 12-step sponsor to a bishop, it was a bit of a shock to my system, because I had always been led to believe by my mother that a bishop was someone who, if he had ever had any problems, had put them well behind him. It was also difficult to have such powerful experiences with individuals and pretend to not know them if I saw them at church. One young man that a stake president asked me to mentor recently acknowledged me in a stake meeting, and I was afraid for him. People could know what knowing me usually means. I'm debating whether to go to his overdue missionary farewell. Outward appearance is very important to Mormons, from all I've seen. I remember one woman, when I was a boy, who did color analysis for women in the world. She looked at the color of their eyes and then told them what colors to wear. I remember my mother going to a seminar she gave at the home of a member in my ward. When my mother came home from that, she took us out shopping for new clothes based on her new insight into our "autumn" color orientation. I do think there is a fair amount of pressure to compete for appearances at church. In another ward, an annual Relief Society event was a home showcase, where the women in the ward with some of the best homes, gave tours for a Relief Society homemaking night. The homes were perfect, with nothing shoddy anywhere to be seen. There were no pieces missing from their china sets or silverware. I was scheduled to split with the missionaries one night. I arrived as did the other man assigned, but the missionaries were not home. We stood outside in the parking lot talking. His home was one of those shown every year. He was getting a divorce. Economic downturns had cost him his job, and the pressure of not being able to supply the "necessities" for furnishing his home had made a villain out of him in his wife's eyes. Of course, that's only his side of the story, but that's the essence of the problem. We're all potentially partially plastic. We all tend to show that side of ourselves we think people will respect more. I'm not saying that members of the church are perfectly plastic personages. I'm not even saying they're trying hard to be plastic. However, people struggling with personal issues that would cause them shame have a hard time not comparing that shame to what seems to be confident and trouble-free lives. Inside, I would hope we all have broken hearts and contrite spirits. I would also hope that whatever confidence we show on the outside comes from the virtue with which we garnish our thoughts and not from an attempt to hide our desperate need for the help of our brothers and sisters. When people here have said that they think it is equally valuable to look at people as role models who have not made bad choices, I can't help but wonder if they are looking at living fiction. I am perhaps too jaded by my experiences, but no matter how righteous a person seems, the part of him that I respect is that part that is humble, striving to improve, and setting the example of what it means to repent. The one session of conference I attended in the tabernacle was when President Kimball ended conference by saying how grateful he was to have so many talks given that showed him things he needed to improve upon. That is the kind of humility that I want to emulate, the recognition that I'm flawed now, and will always be flawed on my own merits, until the day I enter into my rest. I always want to associate with my fellow flawed friends. I just do not relate to people who are looking as if they are one success away from translation. Many believe that such people are the ones hiding the largest issues--the larger the issue, the bigger the mask. I've seen it played out too many times to discount it as a possibility. As a father, I'm finding this to be my biggest challenge, because my daughters are now of marrying age. I will be operating on the idea that if a guy looks too good to be true, he probably is. I'd be much happier seeing them marry a man with a known problem, although not too big a problem, thank you. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 23 May 2001 15:51:19 GMT Scott Bronson writes in part: And I go pretty deep into the minds of my POVs. Deep enough that we find out that even the most devout people can harbor despicable thoughts and behaviors without realizing it. That would be my answer to the reader who might think there's nothing interesting about plastic too-good Mormons. Cathy Wilson This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 23 May 2001 10:02:01 -0500 I don't understand why people are upset about someone asking for a female writer. Who would know better about sister missionary experiences, than a sister missionary? There are some things in this world, where sex does make a difference. Would you ask someone who has never given birth, to describe what it's like? They could try, but who would you believe more, the person who has or the person who hasn't? Within the our church there are gender based roles. So many things only men are allowed to do. Although this request does not come from the church, I see nothing wrong with a request based on gender about a subject that must come from that genders perspective. Anna Wight ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 7:17 PM > At 01:22 PM 5/21/01 -0400, you wrote: > >FEMALE WRITER WANTED. > > > >We (Zion Films / Excel Entertainment) are looking for a female, returned > >missionary writer to do a spin off novelization of "God's Army". Please me > >call ASAP 344-8764. > > > >Thanks! > >Emily Pearson > >Managing Director > >Zion Films > > > Is this legal? I'd be interested in learning how gender is a "necessary > condition of employment" for a writer . . . > > (Just curious. I guess I'm in a contrarian mood this evening . . . ) > > > -- Ronn! :) > > > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 23 May 2001 11:09:41 -0500 > Rachel > >Nunes writes mostly to Mormon women, but only Mormon certain Mormon > >women (Mormon feminists, for instance, are probably not going to like > >her books). > > Interesting. I recently twitted Rachel by telling her, "I looked at the > end of this novel of yours to see how it came out, and I find that the > heroine winds up a pregnant Mormon housewife. You call that a happy ending?" > > As a Mormon feminist, I found both of these authors worth reading. (I just > skim over the parts about how wonderful it is to stay home all day with a > houseful of kids.) As a homemaker with seven children, I can't say that I completely embrace my life at this point. I look forward to the season of my life when I can be out there in the world, not changing diapers and not cleaning up endless messes. However, I do know that many women love it. They love almost every moment of staying home. They find satisfaction in cleaning, enjoy cooking and gardening, and can't imagine anything better than nursing a baby. For some women, it's just a dream. Either they aren't married and desire to be so, or they desperately want children, or they have the husband and children and find themselves in dead end jobs trying to make ends meet. Many women want to leave their successful careers to come home and take care of their children. The point is, that there are all kinds of women out there. Being a pregnant woman can indeed be a very happy ending. As Barbara pointed out, that's what the protagonist needed. I find that both women in and out of the church want to take sides on the issue of staying home or working outside of the home. It seems to me, we need all kinds of women and should be helping each other. I like to read books of women in different circumstances. There's room for all of it. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: [AML] Rich People (was: Standoffish Youth) Date: 23 May 2001 11:57:47 -0600 On Tue, 22 May 2001 11:58:50 -0700, Frank Maxwell wrote: >Responding to me, Jacob Proffitt wrote: > >> I'd be a little careful about calling our youth cliquish. I'm not >> doubting that it can happen, but from my experience, a High Schooler's >> "standoffish" tends to equate with "doesn't go to our parties" and = "isn't >> participating in our activities". In my High School, the LDS members >> weren't considered standoffish. I was. The other LDS members went >> to the parties and participated in the "activities". They were = friends >> with each other as well as friends with others. But they weren't=20 >> friends with me. Because I was "standoffish". Which is to say, I=20 >> wouldn't drink alcohol. And I wouldn't fool around. And I wouldn't=20 >> sneak out after curfew (well, except for prom night which turned out=20 >> alright but probably shouldn't have). > >I'm not sure that I'm understanding your story, Jacob. Are you saying = that >the LDS members in your high school who were *not* standoffish were = instead >participating with nonmembers in drinking alcohol and fooling around? > >In which state did you attend high school? Was it a rural, suburban or >urban area? I went to High School in an affluent suburb of Phoenix Arizona (Paradise Valley). You are correct in your interpretation of my comments. The LDS members in my ward (there was only one ward in the High School) were very friendly with non-members and joined in the partying, fooling around, and drinking of the non-members. They ostracized me, to a smaller extent my sister, and the only other person who held to his standards. I got = through by hanging with the metal-heads and theatre geeks because while they = would drink and party, they didn't expect me to if I didn't want to. Which is kind of ironic, really. >However, the reason I believed my classmate's description of LDS kids in >her high school as cliquish was because I myself had observed, and >experienced, that same phenomenon among LDS young adults in that area. = I'm >not talking about LDS YA's being standoffish toward non-members. I'm >talking about LDS YA's being cliquish and standoffish toward other LDS = who >were not from that area. I'd noticed it in 2 different wards in that >stake. I'd even talked about it in sacrament meeting in the area = singles >ward a few years before. (I'd asked the congregation to imagine an >experiment, in which for 4 weeks in a row, one would stand near the = pulpit >after sacrament meeting ended, and just watch the people in the chapel = as >they adjourned to their classes. Would one see the same groups or >"clusters" of people every week, sitting together and walking together? = =20 >[I used the word "cluster" because I thought the word "clique" was too >strong.] Would the composition of those "clusters" fluctuate, or would >they always consist of the same people? And every week would one see = the >same individuals here and there, sitting by themselves, who never seemed= to >be part of any cluster?) So I presumed that what my classmate had = observed >was real. Ah. I've heard of such things, but never seen it, myself. The rich LDS kids I've known have either been friendly and kept their standards or friendly and didn't keep their standards. They can be blind to the limitations of others (not understanding why you wouldn't be able to join them on their group date to an expensive restaurant), but they aren't = mean about it and accept it when explained. >So what should one do while talking to a nonmember, if she starts = telling >you about a disappointing or negative experience she's had with a = Mormon?=20 >My preference is to listen, and try to empathize and understand her = story, >her point of view, her emotions. If indeed she had an unnecessarily >negative experience with a Mormon -- however minor that experience was = -- >then my act of listening, as a Mormon, to her feelings becomes a gift = that >I can give her. It's a small step toward putting things right. It's a >step toward healing, and reconciliation. (I'm not saying that I'd join = her >in criticizing or backbiting members of the Church. But it is possible = to >express sympathy and empathy without saying a judging word about = anyone.) That's interesting because I've been in that situation, myself. Most recently with my most recent ex-boss. He has a *very* bad attitude about Mormons and has had some bad experiences. My goal with him was to offer sympathy for his experiences and to provide an alternate view of Mormons. He's gone on to attacking Mormons and the Church, so we've parted ways since, still amicably I think, but I'm not a fan of his recent actions (including starting a popular anti-LDS parody web site--kind of The = Nauvoo Expositor lite). >Keeping oneself unspotted from the sins of the world (or the high = school) >is an important principle. So is loving one's neighbor. The trick is >being able to follow both principles at the same time. To be friendly >without being haughty. To be as well-known for our interpersonal >compassion, as for our non-smoking, non-drinking, and non-carousing. Yes to all that. For teens it can be a particularly tough line because = teen society is pretty hung up on the "if you like me, you do what I do" meme. It's a tough world to be a teen, but then, I think it always has been. Transitions are tough, and there is no tougher transition than from child= to adult. >Notwithstanding all of the above, I suspect that the tendency toward >"cliquishness" or "exclusivity" is a function of socio-economic status.=20 >That was my observation after working with LDS YA's in a middle-to-lower >class area, and then moving to the upper-to-upper-middle class area I've >described. The LDS young adults in the first area were friendlier, and >more accepting of and interested in newcomers, than those in the second, >more affluent, area. I was very struck by this. I'm not sure why this >was, though I have some theories. (To their credit, though, when I = talked >about this to individuals in the second area, they did not get = defensive, >but wanted to do the right thing.) Rich people are interesting. They *are* different in some odd ways. = I've been fortunate enough to be around quite a broad spectrum of = socio-economic strata in my life and I find the differences fascinating. I think that = rich people tend to be unduly preoccupied with other rich people, but I think that the reason for it is more innocent than people want to make it. The tendency is to think the worst of their preoccupation. They must be vain= or status conscious or suffer some form of unhealthy competition (i.e. = pride). And certainly elements of those not so nice traits exist, but I don't = think they exist in any greater degree than in others of less extensive means. I think that there just isn't much in our society that can help rich folk know how they are supposed to behave. Which means that they have to take queues from each other. I mean, our media gives good examples to follow from poor and middle-class people, but our representation of rich people tends to emphasize the bad. Mel Gibson has to run the rich guy to ground after punching/blasting his way through all the minions etc (which makes sense for an action movie. I mean, a middle class villain just isn't = going to provide much of a challenge for Mel). And while our news = organizations are almost obsessed with rich people (just how much do I need to know = about the Kennedys, really?) they also tend to emphasize the eccentric. You = never hear about people like my uncle who doesn't do anything Earth shattering except run businesses well. So where do you turn for good examples of living your life if you're rich? You look to people like John Huntsman = or neighbors who are leading good, quiet, affluent lives. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 23 May 2001 14:54:58 -0600 On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 01:21:54AM -0600, D. Michael Martindale wrote: > I'm amazed that so many people seem to be defending mediocrity. No, > the kids don't care, but their parents should. Their parents should > care that they get exposed to quality writing so the kids can grow > up knowing what the heck it is. Do you honestly want your kids to > think someone who doesn't know about POV or how to handle backstory > is a good writer? I don't. >From my experience as a talk radio host, I can tell you that people will always react to criticism of a successful work as if you were attacking the American way: "Jack has the right to write anything in his fiction works. His books make a lot of money. Quit criticizing freedom of speech and capitalism. Don't try to fix what ain't broke." I believe that Jack writes the best book he knows how to write and probably couldn't write a better book if he tried. In fact, I would bet that any attempt to write a better book would turn out a worse book. In my experience, every writer has a natural style and tone. Conscious attempts to create style and tone usually fall flat. In several cases at Covenant, I tried to get authors to fix problems in their works by writing suggestions on the manuscripts and asking for a rewrite. Usually I got back the exact same manuscript with my own words incorporated in the text. Many authors could not see the problem I pointed out and tried to comply with a request they did not understand. I agree that parents should care about the quality of literature their children read, but that assumes that the parents have the skill to recognize quality literature for themselves. Most people don't have the skill to recognize classic literature from dreck. In fact, most people don't even realize that they would need to cultivate such a skill. Since most people cannot recognize or comment on style, all they can only produce commentary on a work's content. When you hear about parents who want to ban a book from the school library, you never hear, "I find that the abrupt sentence structure of _Catcher in the Rye_ demonstrates an immature approach to literature that sets a bad precedent for training our children to appreciate good literature." No instead you hear, "That book has bad words that our kids shouldn't have to read." > I let my daughter read Goosebumps, but I make no bones about what > quality of writing I think it is. In the meantime, I keep exposing > her to more challenging things, so she doesn't remain at the level > of Goosebumps for her whole life. Of course, I want my children to have the same appreciation for literature that I have, but I also have to recognize that not everyone appreciates literature. I have one son that would rather turn on the car races or football than read a book. He has a hard time reading, but decided that he likes Michael Crichton and has read just about every Crichton title. In this case, I took joy that he read something -- no matter what quality. > Why can't Jack Weyland tell the stories these kids like, but using > basic literary expertise? Why is that request causing such a > backlash among you supposed lovers of good literature? I don't get > it! Clue me in. As I said, Jack probably uses every bit of literary expertise he has and probably doesn't recognize a need for anything beyond what he already has. He writes the works that feel right for him, and he gets positive feedback (good sales, fan letters, etc.). Personally, I can't stomach a Jack Weyland book, but I have also found that I can't stomach many of the books that I read as a young reader. As an adult, I have gone back and read some of the great works that I remembered from by first years of reading, and I now wonder what quality I ever saw in such monstrous prose. I think kids want something fundamentally different from fiction than adults, and I think that most of us trained to appreciate literature (whether self- or university taught) look for something different from literature than the rest of the adult populace. My nine-year-old son doesn't come to tell me about the marvelous alliteration and chiasmic structure of _Captain Underpants_. No, he wants to tell me about the scene where the bad guy ends up covered in snot. My wife cannot stand Shakespeare and would rather watch _Air Force One_ or _Stargate_. In my youth, I read a lot of speculative fiction. Some authors have lost their appeal for me (Alan Dean Foster, Piers Anthony, Terry Brooks), and others gain higher esteem when I realize the multiple levels available in the text that provide for adult and juvenile reading (C. S. Lewis, Ursula K. Le Guin, J. R. R. Tolkien). (Does having initials in your pen name have any relationship to literary quality?) We should not defend mediocrity. I think we should call for the highest standard of literature, but we must also recognize that not everyone can produce such literature and not everyone wants to read the same thing. Heck, I like to luncheon at the literary buffet. Some days I want Anne Rice, and others I want Umberto Eco. (There, good authors without initials.) -- Terry Jeffress | Wherever they burn books they will also, | in the end, burn human beings. AML Webmaster and | -- Heinrich Heine AML-List Review Archivist | - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: [AML] Child-Appropriate Art (was: Mormons as Flawed) Date: 23 May 2001 14:03:18 -0700 (PDT) It's been a long time since I've last stood and borne an AML-List posting. This thread has recently intrigued me with the references to Kieth Merrill's attempts to make the crucifixion scene appropriate for all ages and to the reference to a Utah produced movie about a serial killer that's rated "G" (did I read that right?). I sat through Primary last Sunday (as a substitute teacher--they've been tempted to send me back there for some remedial lessons, however). The Primary President told the kids a story about a family that didn't follow the Prophet and proceeded to use a flannel board to tell the story about Haun's Mill Massacre. I'm not making this up. She said the people there were killed because they didn't follow Joseph Smith's advice and gather with the other saints. I was especially glad when she didn't have any cut-outs of mobster figures waiving guns on horseback or any corpses visibly buried in the well. If my own children hadn't been in the room with me (I wanted to put my hands over their ears) I might have thought I was watching a very black comedy satirical treatment of Primary lessons on Saturday Night Live. After opening exercises someone leaned over to me and said: "I think next week she's covering the Adam-God Theory." Two questions: 1. Aren't some topics/depictions just too graphic and complicated for children who are younger than, say, 8 years old? Sure you should teach kids that Jesus died for them, that concept is essential, but the details require extraordinary techniques to make it work for adults and children. Now, on the other hand, I guess a movie about serial killers would be appropriate for a "G" rating, so long as no major dismemberments are depicted. You know, just have non-bloody dead bodies gently fall out of closets, like on "Murder She Wrote." Maybe you could even make it as an animated feature film, but only if the killer had certain endearing qualities, clever songs, funny mannerisms, and a cute sidekick animal for comic relief. Say ... maybe a Disney version of Jack the Ripper, with a full musical score, etc. I'm sure Jack had some good qualities and that he was probably just misunderstood. Wait--Warner Bros. has already done this with Rasputin, didn't it, in "Anastasia"? 2. Since when did the standard Haun's Mill Massacre narrative get changed from a story about Mormon persecutions to a story about not following the prophet? Did I miss a General Conference session? Talk about blaming the victims. Ed ===== Read the reviews of _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ on Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1560851368/o/qid=985231547/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/107-2205516-8183765 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 21 May 2001 23:47:48 -0600 >On Mon, 21 May 2001 17:32:21 "Eric D. Snider" >writes: > >> And if we're talking about movies, then anything involving >> hairy barnacle Sean Connery and a younger >> woman is automatically repulsive. Scott Bronson: >I'll take exception to that. 1. I'm a hairy barnacle myself and it >doesn't seem to be repulsive to ALL women. In fact, I know for certain >that many women actually LIKE it. I don't think the opinion of a SWM >film critic/reviewer should get in the way of their preferences. 2. I >also know many women who (how shall I say this?) find Bro. Connery quite >appealing despite his age, and who would (if the circumstances were >obliging) develop a bond with the man. And there ain't a thing you or I >can do about that ... except sit back and be jealous. > Well, I have eyewitnesses (from "Merry Wives" at the Castle) who can confirm your status as a hairy barnacle, and your wife seems fond of you. So I guess it CAN work. But man, Connery's just gross. He's getting by on past handsomeness: Women remember he USED to be good-looking, so they treat him like he still is. Too bad that doesn't extend to all walks of life. I could have graduated from BYU with the same 4.0 I graduated from high school with.... Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Personal News Date: 23 May 2001 12:48:43 -0700 Congratulations! All best best with the new baby and the new house! At 08:43 PM 5/22/01 -0700, you wrote: >I would like to announce the birth of Jonathan Samuel >Young on Sunday, May 20. Also, we close on a house >next week and will be proceeding with our move to >Pocatello. (This upcoming move is the reason I had to >resign from my position as Secretary for AML after >only a few months.) Obviously, we've been busy, and I >miss participating in all of the great conversations >on AML-List. I look forward to checking in again when >things calm down. Meanwhile, I miss you guys! > > > >===== >Darlene Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Snider Column Date: 23 May 2001 16:24:53 -0600 Hey Eric, thanks for the Tom Green Polygamy column. With all the intense coverage of the trial, the whole issue was getting a bit too serious, and I was getting frustrated with someone who distorted my beliefs so intensely. When I read you column the other day, I laugh so hard I almost cried. It put the whole thing back into perspective. The column is now gracing my fridge. :) Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 23 May 2001 17:28:50 -0600 At 10:53 AM 5/21/01 -0700, you wrote: >I agree with what Michael Martindale said about where to look for role >models for overcoming certain things, but it isn't common among Mormons to >want to look there. When my son, as a young man struggling with some issues, sought counsel from Church leaders, he told me that he got much more helpful advice from a bishop who had once led a wilder life than he should have and who therefore understood the struggle than he did from a bishop who had toed the line his whole life, had always done what he'd been told to do, and simply could not understand anyone who hadn't done the same. Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 23 May 2001 17:36:13 -0600 [MOD: I don't think it's been long enough since the last time we had the R rating debate, so although I'm letting this post through, I'd like to let it lie here. Further discussion of what is and what is not appropriate in Mormon cinema in comparison/contrast to mainstream cinema is perfectly appropriate; however, exactly what the Church's standing is on the R rating, whether the R rating means anything important, etc., is something I'd prefer that we not get into at this time.] D. Michael Martindale writes: [...] >"I think choosing our entertainment or art based on the rating >of the MPAA is ridiculous," Dutcher says. I know no one for whom the MPAA rating is the sole basis for choosing to see or not to see a film. I know many people for whom the rating is one important factor. Is Dutcher saying it should not be an important factor? The _Deseret News_ quotes him saying: "[I]f [`Brigham City'] had gotten an R, it would have meant that I had gone too far." >"Purely from a Mormon standpoint, I don=92t think what President >Benson meant to do [with his 1986 admonition] was to have >everyone surrender their agency to the MPAA. Who is surrendering their agency to the MPAA? Every time that a person with a policy against seeing R-rated movies chooses to abide by that policy, he/she is *exercising* agency. =20 >"Since [1986]," he adds, "the only thing that=92s been said >officially by the church leadership is to avoid inappropriate >films. Does this mean the statute of limitations has run out on President Benson's counsel? His statements about R-rated movies continue to be quoted in Church magazines and lesson manuals, and General Authorities speaking in General Conference continue to speak out against R-rated movies. >He also reacts bluntly to the quoted statements from the >students at the anti-pornography rally. "It seems to indicate >we=92re raising a generation of idiots," he says. "It=92s >ridiculous to claim that R-rated movies are pornography. Did the students claim that all R-rated movies are pornographic or that some R-rated movies are pornographic? =20 >"I hear this debate a lot, over whether to include violence at >all, to include sexuality at all," Dutcher says. "I find that >a strange argument to come from religious people. The perfect >storyteller--God--told his stories with violence and human >sexuality, and all those stories are told for a reason. "BRIGHAM CITY shows us the trials of Latter Day Saints without subjecting us to the smut of most Hollywood films. . . . There is no profanity or sexual content." (From Dutcher's "Brigham City" website FAQ.) Chris Grant - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 23 May 2001 22:19:47 -0400 You know, D Michael and Gae Lyn, since I'm the most vocal, maybe the only, critic basher in this thread, I'll restate. I am not defending Weyland's work per say (Did I spell that right? I've used that expression a thousand times and don't think I've ever written it.) I have only read one of his novels and that was 20 years ago. What I will defend is his 'right' to write whatever he wants in what ever way he wants. Why is it that, so often on this list, we want to be able to write and have published the stories we want to write, but want to deny others the same right? I didn't like Weyland's book and have chosen not to read any more. In fact, the cover blurbs were enough to convince me that I didn't want to read any more when I came across them again a few years ago. But, that is what he writes. And that is what a lot of people buy. It takes all kinds of writers and all kinds of stories to reach all kinds of people. Critique his books if you want. Hold it up to your literary standards in those critiques. But words like 'ought to' and 'should' and declaring that he has a 'moral obligation' really don't sit well with me. Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Re: Female Writer Wanted Date: 23 May 2001 22:35:54 -0500 Emily Pearson: We (Zion Films / Excel Entertainment) are looking for a female, returned missionary writer to do a spin off novelization of "God's Army". Ronn Blankenship: Is this legal? I'd be interested in learning how gender is a "necessary condition of employment" for a writer . . . _______________ Probably not for employment, but this is writing, not employment. (There must be some real irony in that sentence.) Is it possible that they want to take the spin off in the direction of that cute sister missionary that was in the film? No offense to the men-folk, but wouldn't a female writer be able to do that better? I don't know that they want to go in that direction. I don't know that a man would not also be able to write a female point of view. But would a female do better at a female point of view? Of for that matter, a male at the male point of view? Does it take a guy to write about Joseph, and a gal to write about Emma and do it well? Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Rex Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] John BENNION, _Falling Toward Heaven_ (Review) Date: 23 May 2001 21:57:24 -0600 Okay, Michael, if I could play Bennion's (Devil's) advocate... I would say the author didn't find the characters incompatible at all--Howard is a falling Mormon and Allison is the World, so naturally he is going to grasp on to something like her. Why she would hang with him is less apparent, but let's take the leap BECAUSE it gives us the love/hate conversations of their relationship. I doubt the author intent was "symbolic," or didactic, just as I doubt Moby Dick represented the Republic of Ireland, but it helped me to read the book because it put the Mormon/Babylon relationship on speaking terms. Or do we Mormons have to take everything at face value? If we do, then perhaps we deserve only Weylund. Alan Mitchell Consciously sticking a > message in there? Yep, didacticism. > > This appears to be an unintended object lesson on why didacticism > doesn't work so good. I didn't think of Bennion's book as didactic as I > read it. But if he was consciously lacing the thing with messages and > symbolism, the result turned out to be what I'd expect from a didactic > book: it didn't reach me emotionally. -- > D. Michael Martindale - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: RE: [AML] Hi Date: 23 May 2001 19:45:39 -0700 At 11:30 PM 5/22/01 -0600, you wrote: >Welcome Anna! > > > I don't think I'll ever say what the novel is though. What if it did by > > some miracle get published? I might have to bear the negative > > statements by > > the critics on this list, for it's no great literary feat, just a story > > that possessed me until I told it. > > >Just don't read any posts by Jeff Needle or D. Michael and you'll be okay! I'm honored to be in such distinguished company! - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 24 May 2001 01:22:26 -0500 Wed, 23 May 2001 Rex Goode wrote in part, [much good material clipped...] > It took me a long time to get used to seeing the flawed side of Mormons, > often highly respectable Mormons. When I started being a 12-step sponsor to > a bishop, it was a bit of a shock to my system, because I had always been > led to believe by my mother that a bishop was someone who, if he had ever > had any problems, had put them well behind him. > > It was also difficult to have such powerful experiences with individuals and > pretend to not know them if I saw them at church. One young man that a stake > president asked me to mentor recently acknowledged me in a stake meeting, > and I was afraid for him. People could know what knowing me usually means. > I'm debating whether to go to his overdue missionary farewell. > I liked how Richard Dutcher said it: Thu, 10 May 2001 -- RichardDutcher@aol.com wrote: > I feel that if we, as LDS artists, only represent ourselves as strong, > faithful and sinless, we deny the Savior. If we refuse to acknowledge our > flawed humanity we present ourselves as a people with no need for a Redeemer. > > Maybe the Evangelicals are right: maybe we really aren't Christians. > > Just a thought, > > Richard Dutcher > Rex, If it were up to me and it is not. I would say go! And give him a big hug! If we cannot be happy about repentance and new commitment what is the value of it all. Far too many members suffer in silence for not fitting the "plastic mold" being shunned if you will. Maybe it is clothes, language, past sins. I've seen good wise divorced folk too weak to stand up to the behavior of others leave the fold. That needs to be shown in literature and movies too. We are a "Family" organization. Hello! Families have problems and issues that do not always get resolved! That needs to be shown. How do we learn resolution of problems without examples. Heavenly Father had some problems with his children, that's why we have the plan of redemption. What is the Gospel of Jesus Christ all about? I do not fear to see Atonement's power discussed in the arts. It should be better understood by our youth. We are losing many of them as we "shun" them rather than wrap our arms around them and bring them back into the fold. Do we want them to marry our daughters or our sons? If they have their lives in order it is not up to me to throw the first stone. Many of the strongest Bishops and leaders I have known in my life epitomize the Ether 12:27 sermon. If as artists we do not share the ups and downs of the lives of our characters, I suggest they are going to be pretty bland and not believable. I found Dutchers characters particularly in Brigham City, believeable. So flawed we may be but that is why I participate. If I were perfect where would the need be? Just filling a pew so that I could keep my TR? I hope not. Rex, Long time since we shared. Drop me a line sometime, with your address. I have a book I want you to have. Craig Huls dcraigh@onramp.net To Jonathan.... I promise this is my last post on this subject! Well.... maybe that's a little strong. I will try to shut up though! This has certainly been a spicy topic. [MOD: Craig--I hope you don't mind my leaving this note in! Any why should you be different from any of the rest of us who keep on talking? (I don't have the time to do so as much as I used to, since becoming moderator, but that's only from lack of opportunity, not inclination...I tend to make up for it by making only a few, often very long, posts.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 24 May 2001 01:55:34 -0600 On Wed, 16 May 2001 15:26:09 -0600, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >Weyland would only increase his audience and have a more powerful effect >on his current audience if he mastered the skills of writing. There's no >reason why doing so would turn off his current audience, because I'm not >asking him to change the type of story he writes. In my opinion, his >audience likes his stories in spite of his writing skills, not because >of them. If he told those stories better, everyone would come out a >winner. I question whether this is actually true. I would certainly *like* it to= be true. But I have begun wondering if part of his appeal to his core = audience isn't just the stories, but the way he writes them. As Terry points out, many readers don't recognize good or bad writing = style. All they are interested in is whether or not the story moved them (I know one woman whose criterion for a "good" book is "It made me cry"), or if = it contains questionable material or profanity, or if it's about people they identify with. Larger questions of how the words are strung together = don't even enter the picture. Still, whether or not this subset of readers is consciously aware of writing style, it affects their reading experience. = If the writer's stylistic choices (or errors, if you prefer) make it hard to understand the story, even the most shallow reader will be turned off. (Shallow. You know, skimming the surface. Darting along scooping = minnows from the tops of the waves. Not a value judgment on anyone's mental ability, self-worth, or eternal salvation. Reading in a shallow manner.) So there's a basic level of stylistic quality that's necessary to make a story intelligible. And then there's the higher level of technique that makes a story "well-written," at least according to us writer/English = major types. There's not a wide gap between those levels, in my opinion. But it's enough to make a lot of us say "geez, why did you have to dump that load of exposition all over my front lawn? Couldn't you have spread it gently over the course of three chapters?" If Weyland were to improve = his writing style, there's no question that his readership would increase = among the people to whom style matters. But let's take this other group of readers--this subset to whom writing style is a mystery. I'm not just talking about teens now, but adults as well. In general, they're reading to be entertained. Some of them don't want to have to think too hard when they're reading (I have heard these exact words from more than one ADULT person). They look to fiction as something that should give them everything they need to know to enjoy it without their having to work at it. So I wonder, when I read examples = like the one Katie posted (the huge lump of backstory about the kid passing = the sacrament) whether this is actually a stylistic benefit to Weyland's = target audience. What if getting the descriptions all out of the way in two paragraphs is what makes his books go over so well? What if his readers enjoy his books not in spite of his style, but because of it? Is it so farfetched to imagine that the best book he can write is a perfect match = for his readers' tastes? I think it's possible that the kind of books Weyland (and others; he's = not the only one) writes represent a distinct genre or subgenre of fiction. = Any name I might suggest for such a genre would probably be condescending, so= I won't even try. Whatever you call it, it's something quantifiably = different from other kinds of fiction, and it has its own rules and standards that = may also be different. If this is the case, then insisting that he conform = to a particular ideal of good writing means that we are setting up a hierarchy= of genres in which Jack Weyland isn't as high-quality as mainstream fiction. But genre requirements already vary, some quite dramatically--what is acceptable and desirable writing in a romance novel is shuddered over in science fiction, and the level of exposition that's sometimes necessary = in science fiction is verboten in certain kinds of literary fiction. And nobody here quite dares to suggest that science fiction as a genre isn't = as noble and good as literary fiction, right? In saying that Weyland needs to improve his writing skills, I could = actually be privileging one genre over another based simply on my = preferences--which may not be held by people who read books for different reasons than my = own. As far as I'm concerned, "good writing technique" means "whatever will = make a story accessible to the intended audience." I would prefer that it = mean "the kind of writing that lets ME appreciate a story." But it doesn't. = So I don't think it's useful to try to change an author who has discovered a great way to reach a niche audience crying out for exactly what he has to offer. Using "good" technique may actually make Weyland's books less accessible to his core audience. Even if he gains some readers by improving, this means he also loses some--probably a net loss, too. I'm pretty sure he doesn't want this. If he really is writing for untrained, uncritical readers, then he ought to do it in a way they're going to = enjoy and appreciate. "But, Melissa, you snobby literary maven you, shouldn't we want readers = to become more skilled, for their own sakes as well as our own, because if = we hear one more person say they don't want to have to think when they read,= we will chew our own arm off and beat them silly with it?" I do think it's a good thing for people to improve their reading skill, = and not just because it allows them to enjoy the kind of books *I* think are quality reading. I think reading critically (the opposite of shallowly) makes reading more fun. I think it helps you appreciate life. (I would = say that it gives you a healthy, robust glow, but that's demonstrably untrue,= as my pasty white skin will attest.) But I don't think we teach those = critical skills by saying people shouldn't read a particular genre, or by = criticizing a particular author's lack of writing skills. It's done by taking their reading interests seriously and being grateful that they're reading = anything at all, even if it's not written well according to our standards. Get = them to talk about *why* they liked a certain character or story--something = more specific than "it made me cry." Show them that thinking about reading is enjoyable, not a trial. Host a book review session at Enrichment night. Get the high priests' group talking about the latest Marilyn Brown novel instead of whether or not Adam had a navel. It's a surer way to breed a better reader than expecting an author to change a formula that works. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Rich People (was: Standoffish Youth) Date: 24 May 2001 07:27:52 -0400 And add to that that a lot of rich people, Mormon or not, go about doing a lot of the wonderful things they do rather anonymously. Even famous people get a lot more press for the other things they do, then the charitable. However, as a friend and I were conversing yesterday about similar subjects, most Americans, even middle class ones, don't realize just how much they have. They don't realize that a good portion of the world lives in very different circumstances. They may even hear the news stories, but somehow it doesn't all add up together. In America there also seems to be a media/advertising onslaught all hinged on how we 'deserve' everything money can buy. Almost every commercial, at least on our radio station, which is the only place I hear them, either flaunts the 'deserve' approach through the whole thing, or slips in the 'because you deserve.....' somewhere along the way. Anyway, I don't think rich Mormons are much different than rich Baptists, or rich Methodists-all people who believe in doing good works in various ways, and trying to handle their riches righteously in a very materialistic world. BTW, in our high school we had a special little gathering place called 'Mormon Triangle'. But it wasn't exclusive. We didn't all hang out there all the time-I was usually in the band room, and non-Mormons weren't excluded. We all had our share of non-member friends. ( And I must say, we almost never saw the popular jock crowd-I mean Mormons who fit into that crowd.) But it was a place you could go and not worry about second hand smoke, bad language, and so forth. Or just to see friends again. Or to meet-I'll meet you at Mormon Triangle at..." Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: Re: [AML] Child-Appropriate Art Date: 24 May 2001 08:11:33 -0600 >From: Ed Snow >Now, on the other hand, I guess a movie about serial >killers would be appropriate for a "G" rating, so long >as no major dismemberments are depicted. You know, >just have non-bloody dead bodies gently fall out of >closets, like on "Murder She Wrote." If you want some serious serial killing to watch with the kids, just pick up Cary Grant's version of _Arsenic and Old Lace_. Is there a rating below G, maybe a G minus? Bob Hughes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 24 May 2001 09:00:39 -0600 REWIGHT wrote: > > I don't understand why people are upset about someone asking for a female > writer. > > Who would know better about sister missionary experiences, than a sister > missionary? For many years the writer known as James Triptree, Jr. fooled the science fiction world into thinking she was a man. I even read an article by a male sf writer where he felt he had proved by analyzing her fiction that Tiptree was a man. He wasn't. Years later, he "came out" as a woman, Racoona Sheldon, to the surprise of all. [MOD: Actually, "Raccoona Sheldon" was another pseudonym. The real name was Alice Sheldon. She was a psychiatrist, I believe.] Having said that, partially to set to rest the idea that ONLY women can write believably about women, I agree that, in this male dominated church, it's entirely appropriate that a woman be expected to write the definitive sister missionary novel. > There are some things in this world, where sex does make a difference. > Would you ask someone who has never given birth, to describe what it's like? > They could try, but who would you believe more, the person who has or the > person who hasn't? Having been present at the birth of my five children, I'm sure I could do a fairly credible job. > Within the our church there are gender based roles. So many things only men > are allowed to do. Although this request does not come from the church, I > see nothing wrong with a request based on gender about a subject that must > come from that genders perspective. I don't think that it MUST come from that gender's perspective. I don't think we should feel that men can only write about male protagonists. But I'm glad that some female writer will get a change to attach herself to a project as exciting as this. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 24 May 2001 09:09:03 -0600 Terry L Jeffress wrote: > > In my experience, every writer has a natural style and tone. > Conscious attempts to create style and tone usually fall flat. Not by the better writers. Card has written in several different styles, so has King (he did an incredible rip-off of Conan Doyle in an anthology of "lost" Sherlock Holmes stories. > In > several cases at Covenant, I tried to get authors to fix problems in > their works by writing suggestions on the manuscripts and asking for a > rewrite. Usually I got back the exact same manuscript with my own > words incorporated in the text. Many authors could not see the problem > I pointed out and tried to comply with a request they did not > understand. I cannot understand this. Personally, I would seriously begin to doubt a writer's abilities at all if he/she couldn't do this. Maybe, instead of being a writer, they are storytellers. Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 24 May 2001 09:44:33 -0600 (MDT) > There are some things in this world, where sex does make a difference. > Would you ask someone who has never given birth, to describe what it's like? > They could try, but who would you believe more, the person who has or the > person who hasn't? > > Anna Wight I see the questions not as being upset, but as just curious. I ddin't actually see anyone express outrage. But this raises a very good question - can an author write convincingly about things he/she has never experienced? Timothy Zahn (a male, though I'm sure he got imput from his wife) wrote a very convincing birth scene in one of his SW novels (my wife commented on how well he did). I've read books by authors who have never been married who describe marriage relationships nearly perfectly (they did so well, I was sure they were married, only to find out later they weren't). Why is it that soem insist that one must experience something before they can convincingly write about it? No wonder Science Fiction and Fantasy are often devalued - I doubt any of those writers have actually met elves or visited the planet Hain. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 24 May 2001 09:55:29 -0600 (MDT) > I believe that Jack writes the best book he knows how to write and > probably couldn't write a better book if he tried. In fact, I would > bet that any attempt to write a better book would turn out a worse > book. In my experience, every writer has a natural style and tone. > Conscious attempts to create style and tone usually fall flat. In > several cases at Covenant, I tried to get authors to fix problems in > their works by writing suggestions on the manuscripts and asking for a > rewrite. > Terry Jeffress It's funny you mention that. When I was at Rick's College (where Jack teaches physics and a wonderful class on science fiction) we had him come give a lecture at a Writers Guild meeting. I'll skip most of his lecture, but the most interesting part was that he came prepared with early drafts of many of his works. He claimed "I am not a good writer. But I am a decent rewriter." To prove this, he read and summarized early drafts of some of his fiction. These first drafts were horrid. Awful. Pure trash. But, he admitted this and then talked about how he went about revising. He would go through something like 12-15 drafts with each novel - and each draft really was better then the previous. Characters would change or disappear - settings would be switched (he said one of his biggest problems is that he keeps trying to write stories based in areas he's never visited, but somewhere around the 3rd of 4th draft he'll get wise and switch the locale to somewhere more familiar). I'm still not a big fan of Weyland (though he has some refreshingly original dialouge at times), but the man knows how to revise, even if (by his own admission) he can't write well. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 24 May 2001 10:23:03 -0700 I think the word "plastic" is perfect to describe Mormon culture. One = definition calls plastic "any organic material with the ability to flow = into a desired shape when heat and pressure are applied to it and to = retain the shape when they are withdrawn." Isn't that what the gospel is = trying to do to us? Of course, the downside is that plastic, while = utilitarian, is rarely asthetically pleasing. I see plastic Mormons as = those who conform to the mold in all respects, including those respects = that are more cultural than doctrinal. Another great metaphor for Mormonism is Velveeta, which I saw in a New = Yorker cartoon not too long ago. Nice, smooth, bland, harmless, completely = unsurprising, embraced by those who value safety, conformity, predetermined= answers, etc. but repulsive to those who value adventure, spice, = unpredictability, individuality, diversity, etc. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: [AML] RENSHAW, "Clean Cuts" (was: Mormons as Flawed) Date: 24 May 2001 10:17:08 -0700 R.W. Rasband wrote: > There's a really interesting article this week in the > Salt Lake "City Weekly" (the alternative/free paper). > It's titled "Clean Cuts", by Scott Renshaw. . . . > > http://www.slweekly.com > How do you find that article at the slweekly.com website? I couldn't find it. Could you send the List more explicit instructions on how to navigate that site? Or could someone ask the S.L. Weekly or Mr. Renshaw for permission to post the article to this list? Thanks, Frank Maxwell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: Re: [AML] Child-Appropriate Art Date: 24 May 2001 10:20:27 -0700 Ed Snow wrote: > Now, on the other hand, I guess a movie about serial > killers would be appropriate for a "G" rating, so long > as no major dismemberments are depicted. You know, > just have non-bloody dead bodies gently fall out of > closets, like on "Murder She Wrote." Maybe you could > even make it as an animated feature film, but only if > the killer had certain endearing qualities, clever > songs, funny mannerisms, and a cute sidekick animal > for comic relief. Say ... maybe a Disney version of > Jack the Ripper, with a full musical score, etc. I'm > sure Jack had some good qualities and that he was > probably just misunderstood. Wait--Warner Bros. has > already done this with Rasputin, didn't it, in > "Anastasia"? No, it was Twentieth-Century-Fox. However, by the standards of AML-List, "Anastasia" does count as Mormon literature, having been created by LDS filmmaker Don Bluth. (Rasputin's sidekick, a bat named Dvorak, even got his own direct-to-video sequel.) It's an interesting genre: history transmuted into animated fantasy. Warner Bros. could do this, too. They could do an animated feature on Mormon history. It could star the Tasmanian Devil as Gov. Lilburn Boggs of Missouri, Sylvester the cat as the treacherous John C. Bennett, Foghorn Leghorn as blowhard Illinois Gov. Thomas Ford, and Wily Coyote and Elmer Fudd as assorted mobsters. Yosemite Sam could play Porter Rockwell, if he promises to not cut his hair and to be more careful where he points his guns. Regards, Frank Maxwell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 24 May 2001 11:51:16 -0600 I noticed the new (June 2001) Ensign has a cover article titled "Setting Family Standards for Entertainment," written by a layperson. Although the article says nothing new and bugs with its frequent use of meaningless Mormonspeak words like "appropriate" and "inappropriate," it does manage to completely avoid mentioning "R-rated." The showcased GA quote is from H. Burke Peterson: "I plead with you to leave it alone. Stay away from any movie, video, publication, or music--regardless of its rating--where illicit behavior and expressions are part of the action." I would love to hear a GA say something more like, "where illicit behavior and expressions are celebrated or glorified rather than being shown in moral context and with appropriate consequences." (I threw in the "appropriate" for verisimilitude.) Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Hatch Subject: [AML] Re: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ Date: 24 May 2001 11:37:55 -0700 I have very little education in music. I've gone to musical events with my mother-in-law, who has a great deal of music education. After a particular Christmas concert, for instance, I was babbling about how beautiful the songs had been and how impressed I was with the performance. She pointed out that the harmony had been off in one song, the soloist on another song had done something wrong, etc. etc. etc. Her criticism did nothing to lessen the pleasure I felt. In fact, I felt sorry for her! I suspect it's this way with Jack Weyland's work. People with literary education see the faults in his writing. People without the education find great pleasure in his stories. Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 24 May 2001 14:24:40 -0500 D. Michael wrote: >I'm amazed that so many people seem to be defending mediocrity. No, the >kids don't care, but their parents should. Their parents should care >that they get exposed to quality writing so the kids can grow up knowing >what the heck it is. Do you honestly want your kids to think someone who >doesn't know about POV or how to handle backstory is a good writer? I >don't. [snip] > >Why can't Jack Weyland tell the stories these kids like, but using basic >literary expertise? Why is that request causing such a backlash among >you supposed lovers of good literature? I don't get it! Clue me in. All right, I'll bite. First, though, two points. (1) I haven't read anything by Jack Weyland in years, maybe decades (and then found his works mildly enjoyable, no more, no less--often clever in dialogue, if I recall correctly). (2) I *do* defend the right of the critic to point out what seem to him/her to be errors, wrong choices, and the like, both on the esthetic and moral level. (We haven't had this discussion in a while, but I think it's one of the most important functions of criticism to describe the moral framework present in a work of art, and in its interaction with the community that is its audience). That said, the point that raises my eyebrows in Michael's commentary has to do with the assumption that there's a clear right way and wrong way to do certain things literarily, and that this is something that can be easily described. Put quite simply, I don't buy into the notion of "rules" of good writing. I *do* believe in such things as more and less successful choices--and I believe there are conventions, associated with particular types of writing and audiences, which are flouted only at the risk of disappointing readers. But many years of reading, writing, teaching, editing, and analyzing written work have led me to the conclusion there are no generalizable rules of good writing which are both (a) generally applicable to all types of writing, and (b) specific enough to be of any use in specific writing situations. Let me immediately clarify that from an academic point of view, I think it is certainly possible to generalize some "laws" of good writing, such as: "The vocabulary must be appropriate to the purpose and audience." But in my view, this is such a general statement that it is not useful in any specific writing situation. Rather, its main usefulness is as an area that can be explored by academic scholars in their attempts to describe different types and examples of writing, by attempting to answer the question, "What does 'appropriate vocabulary' mean for this type of writing? What type of effect is the vocabulary directed toward?" An interesting analytical question, but not a guide to practice. I'm aware that this is a minority opinion in very many circles, and it has led me to some rather unpopular stances in specific instances. For example, as a teacher of freshman composition at the university level, I was very much an agnostic (approaching atheist) on the common assumption that teaching students how to write personal essays and essays of literary criticism would be much use to them in learning how to write the reports, critical/analytical essays, and such for which freshman composition was supposed to be preparing them. The types of literature were just too different, in my opinion. At some level, I do think that skills of language use are transferable--and practice in any type of writing improves one's general language skills--but in my opinion, the specific strategies and values we taught in freshman composition were in many cases not terribly helpful for future academic or professional writing, for the vast majority of our students. D. Michael has, in fact, made some comments in other contexts that I take to be similar to this, in echoing Scott Card's criticism of most university creative writing programs as teaching only one particular type of writing that really has little to do with the stories most people read and enjoy. It's largely a question of genre. I think the quote that someone posted from a particular Jack Weyland book was useful in this regard, in that it illustrated precisely what he does and led to a somewhat fruitful discussion of what the precise problem seemed to be, at least in that case (i.e., that the flashback violated point of view). Most modern readers of a certain sensibility find switches of point of view distracting, which is, I daresay, the only reason why they're wrong. But other time periods have not been nearly so "hung up" about point of view (which is, I think, in part an ideological artifact of the realistic movement in literature). Readers from those time periods would likely find our dislike of point of view switches and extended flashbacks just as arbitrary as we find the declarations of the French drama theorists (if I recall my literary history correctly) that the action in a play should take place over no more than a 24-hour period (basing this on their understanding of Aristotle's unity of time? something like that). I think it's worth pondering the question: If Jack Weyland, with what we think of as numerous stylistic problems, is reaching a large audience that more well-crafted (by our standards) Mormon authors are not, does this mean (a) Mormon readers prefer works of lesser literary quality; (b) Jack Weyland is succeeding at something other, more literary polished authors are failing at; (c) Jack Weyland has better publicity/covers/whatever; (d) Literary success is utterly random; (e) Jack Weyland is attempting to write a different kind of literature than our more literarily polished authors are doing, with different values, that appeals to a different audience? I had reached this point in my message when I read Melissa Proffitt's excellent post, which makes much the same point I was aiming at here (but more clearly and succinctly). I think she makes a good argument that to some readers, of some genres, what we see as positive literary virtues may actually be distractions. Symbolism is actually a good example in that regard--something that to some people is very much a part of the writing craft, but to other people and genres not only is irrelevant but actually gets in the way of what that genre is about. Style is (or should be, in my opinion) the handmaid of purpose and audience--I would say, of "story," except that for some types of writing, story is not actually the most basic level. (I think much science fiction falls into this category, where the plot is largely an excuse for exploring a particular set of ideas, intellectual construct, or world. For example, I think Hal Clement's writing is of this type.) As such, what makes for good style changes depending on the audience and purpose. I'm not saying that it's impossible to critique a given work on the basis of style--I wouldn't be an editor if I believed that--but I think it does mean that any discussion of literary style need to be contextualized. I think we fall into a trap when we assume that the canons of good writing--even such basic ones as "how to handle" point of view and flashbacks--are the same for all writers, all situations, and all audiences. Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 24 May 2001 13:27:29 -0500 > > Having been present at the birth of my five children, I'm sure I could > do a fairly credible job. Yes, but you can only write from what you witnessed, what she told you, and what you can imagine. You haven't really experienced child -birth. You've witnessed it. There's a difference. It's like telling someone who has lost a child that you know exactly how they feel, when you haven't had the experience. You can imagine how they feel, and sympathize, but you don't really know. > > I don't think that it MUST come from that gender's perspective. I don't > think we should feel that men can only write about male protagonists. > But I'm glad that some female writer will get a change to attach herself > to a project as exciting as this. > I think men can write from a female point of view, and women can write from a males. I've done it, although as of yet I don't know how convincingly. However, I will admit, that although I can imagine what men might be thinking, I don't really know. And if the novel being written is about a female missionary's experience, how does a man know what goes on? He's not there. He's not even a witness to it. He may see what she does in public, but he's not going home with her to find out what she does there, or how she gets along with her companions, or how she feels, or the trials she faces. I don't even qualify for this job. I'm not a returned missionary. I guess I could do homework and find out what really goes on in a mission, but, it sounds like they really want it from someone who has actually experienced it. Not someone who reads about it and imagines it. I'm sure if one wanted to, anyone could write a story about a femal missionary. But if what they truly want is someone who has lived through it, then I see nothing wrong with asking for that. Anna [Wight] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 24 May 2001 13:36:42 -0500 > > Why is it that soem insist that one must experience something before they can > convincingly write about it? No wonder Science Fiction and Fantasy are often > devalued - I doubt any of those writers have actually met elves or visited the > planet Hain. > > --Ivan Wolfe Actually, I think you can write convincingly about something you haven't experienced. It takes homework, and I think it helps if you can relate your own experiences to it. That's what fiction writing is all about. But if I as a writer, do write about something I haven't experience, I'm not going to go around telling people that I know exactly how they feel. I once wrote a poem on giving a child up for adoption. I was told by people who had gone through this, that it was exactly how they felt. But I don't really know what it's like to give up a child for adoption and I'm not going to say I do. I only imagine it, based on my feelings for my own children. Someone with good writing skills who has experienced it, could probably do a better job. I just found it interesting that people would question why someone had a job for a female writer. It seems to me they want a real woman's perspective on something. Not a man's perspective on what he thinks a woman's perspective is. They also want an RM. Not someone who just imagines what it's like to be a missionary. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 24 May 2001 14:01:21 -0600 On Thu, 24 May 2001 10:23:03 -0700, Christopher Bigelow wrote: >I think the word "plastic" is perfect to describe Mormon culture. One = definition calls plastic "any organic material with the ability to flow = into a desired shape when heat and pressure are applied to it and to = retain the shape when they are withdrawn." Isn't that what the gospel is = trying to do to us? Of course, the downside is that plastic, while = utilitarian, is rarely asthetically pleasing. I see plastic Mormons as = those who conform to the mold in all respects, including those respects = that are more cultural than doctrinal. > >Another great metaphor for Mormonism is Velveeta, which I saw in a New = Yorker cartoon not too long ago. Nice, smooth, bland, harmless, = completely unsurprising, embraced by those who value safety, conformity, = predetermined answers, etc. but repulsive to those who value adventure, = spice, unpredictability, individuality, diversity, etc. I really worry about these kinds of labels being applied to the greater Mormon population. It smacks of a lack of respect for our people. Both plastic and Velveeta are notorious for an adjective you (plural, I'm not singling Chris out here) seem to be avoiding: fake. In fact, a lot of = what has been said skirts around this in interesting ways that still reenforce the essential view that Mormons are fake. I think this is a disservice = to believing, struggling members just because they choose not to make their struggles public. I come at this at an interesting angle because until recently, I have = taken great pains to make sure I separate myself from other ward members. I = wore non-white shirts, grew beards, expressed somewhat controversial = viewpoints etc. I essentially wanted everyone to know that *I* am not plastic. My assumption being that since I expressed non-orthodox views or displayed non-orthodox social cues I obviously couldn't be fake. I was wrong to do that. Since my move to Utah, I made a resolution that = I would find out what the conforming Mormons are really like. You know = what? I enjoy church so much more now that I'm not assuming the worst of the members around me. Is the perfect-seeming family sitting behind us in church as good as they seem? I don't know, don't care, but I certainly *hope* so. I *want* them to be as perfect as they seem. So what if they might really be fake? Their perfection or imperfection isn't going to affect my family, and it isn't going to affect how I treat them any more. And you know, since then, I've found that members who look plastic can = have some pretty deep insights. I've found that I can learn valuable lessons from people you wouldn't think knew enough to come in out of the rain. = I've learned more and grown more because I don't discount the experiences = given in Gospel Doctrine and frankly, I try harder to make it all relevant to = me. And I'm happier for it. And I think there are a lot of stories that = remain buried there under that fake label that could be told and would be interesting to all of us. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [AML] John BENNION, _Falling Toward Heaven_ (Review) Date: 24 May 2001 13:50:59 -0600 Here's a relevant paragraph from my review of _Falling Toward Heaven_ that will appear in the spring 2001 Irreantum, which will hopefully arrive in homes by June 20, which technically doesn't make us late: In an e-mail exchange, Bennion shared some insights about the novel's background. He started writing it during his Ph.D. program at the University of Houston, and it became his 950-page dissertation novel. "The germ of the novel was probably my longstanding unhappiness about my father's alcoholism," Bennion says. "Because he was still alive I couldn't use that subject matter, so I chose another sin, adultery. Sounds silly, but that's how my mind worked. Originally I experimented with a young man returning from his mission to find that his father was having adultery with a woman he home taught. I then thought, Why not put both the goodness of the young man and his father's sin in one person? Then I had Allison converting, but one of my teachers suggested that having a non-Mormon in the book would give me the opportunity to explain Mormonism to her and to non-Mormon readers. I gave her the name Allison after the lusty woman in the 'Miller's Tale' by Chaucer. I gave Howard a traditional Bennion family name. The question of the novel then became, Could these two people, so different from each other, grow toward a true marriage?" Chris Bigelow ---- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, the literary quarterly published by the Assocation for Mormon Letters, send $4 to AML, P.O. Box 51364, Provo, UT 84605-1364. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] RENSHAW, "Clean Cuts" (was: Mormons as Flawed) Date: 24 May 2001 14:01:27 -0700 My earlier message has the complete URL. Did this not go thru earlier? = Anyway, here it is again: The alternative newspaper _Salt Lake City Weekly_ has a highly interesting = and unusually fair (for them) article on censorship and audiences in = Mormonland. Some expected boneheaded examples are given, but they are = uncomfortably valid and representative of the sad reality. However, they = actually quote some culturally on-the-ball Mormons too, with interviewees = such as Richard Dutcher and tightrope-walking Kieth Merrill. The link is = http://www.avenews.com/editorial/no/cw/feat/feat_010517.cfm (but the = online version appears to leave out a good opening quote by Orson Scott = Card that appears in the print version). Australia has something called "cultural cringe," defined as "a feeling = that one's country's culture is inferior to that of other countries." I = very often feel something similar as a Mormon, though I can't think of any = organized religion's culture I would prefer. All I can say is, thank = goodness (in general) for people like Orson Scott Card and Richard = Dutcher. Chris Bigelow -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:17 AM Cc: rrasband@yahoo.com R.W. Rasband wrote: > There's a really interesting article this week in the > Salt Lake "City Weekly" (the alternative/free paper).=20 > It's titled "Clean Cuts", by Scott Renshaw. . . . > > http://www.slweekly.com >=20 How do you find that article at the slweekly.com website? I couldn't find it. Could you send the List more explicit instructions on how to navigate that site? Or could someone ask the S.L. Weekly or Mr. Renshaw for permission to post the article to this list? Thanks, Frank Maxwell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "thomasb5" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 24 May 2001 16:01:18 -0500 I thought part of writing a good book is to do research. I doubt that many of the authors who write about serial killers have actually murdered anyone. :-) Rick T - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 24 May 2001 14:49:01 -0600 On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:09:03AM -0600, Thom Duncan wrote: > Terry L Jeffress wrote: > > In my experience, every writer has a natural style and tone. > > Conscious attempts to create style and tone usually fall flat. > > Not by the better writers. Card has written in several different styles, > so has King (he did an incredible rip-off of Conan Doyle in an anthology > of "lost" Sherlock Holmes stories. And thus the word "usually." > > In several cases at Covenant, I tried to get authors to fix > > problems in their works by writing suggestions on the manuscripts > > and asking for a rewrite. Usually I got back the exact same > > manuscript with my own words incorporated in the text. Many > > authors could not see the problem I pointed out and tried to > > comply with a request they did not understand. > > I cannot understand this. Personally, I would seriously begin to doubt a > writer's abilities at all if he/she couldn't do this. Maybe, instead of > being a writer, they are storytellers. I don't want to get into any debate about the line between a "writer" and a "storyteller." In my mind, anyone who has the perseverance to continue to string word after word, sentence after sentence into a coherent, novel-length manuscript can assume the title "writer." Within the set of writers, we can find a small subset: "published writers." Only the writers that submit their manuscripts can hope to join the publisher writers. At Covenant (1993), we often didn't have a lot of manuscripts to choose from, but we did have an edict from the boss that we would publish at least 15 novels in the following year. When you have only a couple of sequels from your house authors, you have to look at the slushpile and take the best of what you find there. In many cases, the stories had promise, but needed a lot of work. But we operated under another edict: you can only spend ten hours editing a manuscript; if it needs more, send it back for a rewrite. In some cases, the authors made great improvements. In other cases, the authors had no clue why I would show concern about a Nephite character swimming through a concrete pipe and encountering a steel grate. But in either case, the authors got to join the ranks of "published writers." We can gripe all we want about the quality of some Mormon fiction, but publishers have to limit their offering to the manuscripts they receive and the further limitation of what they can sell. Covenant had research that showed 90% of book buyers in Mormon bookstores were LDS housewives. In most cases, these women were buying a book as a gift for a child or friend, followed by buying the book for themselves. (Tyler, if you have more recent data, would you mind sharing?) Little Johnny has already read all the Harry Potter books, and mom wants to keep that reading trend going, so she buys one or two of those Tennis-shoes books. Sally has started reading those trashy Harlequin books, so mom buys Sally a Weyland and a Nunes novel. Mom hopes the romance element will get Sally to read, and mom likes the idea that the characters have LDS values. And while she's in the store, mom decides to buy one of those Lund books that has everyone in Relief Society talking. Mom never has a chance to see books like _Dancing Naked_, _Riptide_, _Altman's Tongue_, or _The Backslider_: Deseret Book doesn't offer those titles. (At least not from the website.) We can mentally downgrade an author's status from "writer" to "storyteller," but that doesn't change the availability of the author's works. We can turn our noses up at Jack Weyland all we want, but he still owns three linear feet of shelf space in every Deseret Book store. I'm not opposed to posting critical reviews of Mormon fiction -- I do it all the time. If someone writes a bad book, others ought to hear about it to help save the potential reader time and money. But in doing so, we should also remember that we might have to live with these fellow saint throughout eternity. So as self-proclaimed writers we have some challenges that each of us must face. Can you write a novel of sufficient quality that even the most snooty members of AML-List will approve? (Top 10 list of snooty members to follow.) Can you get that book onto Deseret Book's shelves? Can you entice the everyday Mormon mom to buy your book? Can you take it when someone undresses your novel in front of the world and exposes its nasty flaws and still keep up your momentum on your next novel? Can you write something that will make me want to read your new novel instead of rereading Vladimir Nabokov or Gene Wolfe? -- Terry Jeffress | The demonic paradox of writing: when you | put something down that happened, people AML Webmaster and | often don't believe it; whereas, you can AML-List Review Archivist | make up anything, and people assume it | must have happened to you. | -- Andrew Holleran - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Book of Job (was: Mormons as Flawed) Date: 24 May 2001 10:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Frank Maxwell wrote: > You can read my analysis of the arguments for and against Job's historicity > at Kurt Neumiller's "LDS Seminar" website, > http://www.cybcon.com/%7Ekurtn/exegesis.html > specifically at http://www.cybcon.com/~kurtn/ldssemv2n32.txt > I try to be fair to both sides of the issue. Thanks for pointing that site out to me. Good job (no pun intended), I must say. You did a very good turn at lookiong at both sides of the issue - very well done. I did find S. Kurt Neumiller reading of Job overly cynical towards Job's character, but overall the entire overview was very well presented. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 24 May 2001 14:12:19 -0500 All they are interested in is whether or not the story moved them (I know one woman whose criterion for a "good" book is "It made me cry"), or if it contains questionable material or profanity, or if it's about people they identify with. Larger questions of how the words are strung together don't even enter the picture. As a writer, the highest compliment that could be paid to me isn't "This is well written". It's "You made me cry (laugh, escape, imagine, see, feel, etc.)" I write to move the reader. I don't write for literary achievement. That's not to say that both can't be accomplished. But when someone reads my work, I don't want them looking to see how the words are strung together. I want them to read to feel something. For me, that is the larger question. Did this move you? Does it speak to you? Do you recognize the characters? Which character do you relate to? What made you cry? What made you laugh? Did you enjoy the adventure? Could you see what I wrote? Frankly if someone droned on and on about the intellectual aspects of something I wrote, and didn't mention the emotional, then I would feel that I had failed. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Date: 24 May 2001 16:47:43 -0400 > Well, I have eyewitnesses (from "Merry Wives" at the Castle) who can > confirm your status as a hairy barnacle, and your wife seems fond of > you. So I guess it CAN work. But man, Connery's just gross. He's > getting by on past handsomeness: Women remember he USED to be > good-looking, so they treat him like he still is. Too bad that > doesn't extend to all walks of life. I could have graduated from BYU > with the same 4.0 I graduated from high school with.... > > Eric D. Snider my mother used to have a saying "Every one to his own taste as the old woman said when she kissed the cow." It is fascinating to note that as a person who is young, and another gender, you have figured out women's tastes. I am a lot older, but I haven't figured them out yet, but my wife, last evening, commented on hearing that a new Connery movie was coming, "the subject doesn't sound like much, but I can always go and watch Sean Connery". By the way, she snickered aloud when I read her your last comment. Richard Johnson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 24 May 2001 16:57:04 -0600 On Wed, 23 May 2001 22:19:47 -0400 "Tracie Laulusa" writes: > Hold it up to your literary standards in those critiques. > But words like 'ought to' and 'should' and declaring > that he has a 'moral obligation' really don't sit well > with me. But we all have that moral obligation. We must recognize that excellence and quality are a reflection of how we feel about ourselves and about life and about God. ... Real craftsmanship ... reflects real caring, and real caring reflects our attitude about ourselves, about our fellowmen, and about life. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 24 May 2001 19:52:51 -0400 On your comments re the male/female author-sponsor discussion, I think you neglected to take into consideration the point that arrogant newspaper columnist Johnston was making: the female narrator will spin out a better tale because she will focus on the other rather than on the self. Johnston attributes the poor quality of previous missionary novels written (his opinion) on the masculine self-obsession, with the wrestling of personal lions, whereas the female narrator, he assumes, will not harbor the same inner-lion-wrestling tendencies-she will focus on the conflicts of those she teaches, or her companion, perhaps. I'm not convinced that women are any less self-obsessed than men-though any kind of generalizations here will be weak. Beauty magazines, makeup, hair perms, perfume-all to please men, the other? if female novelists are so better equipped for the role, why don't they dominate the canon? Only b/c the canon is selected by men? At any rate, the focus on otherness is one chraracteristic, acc. to Johnston, that the female narrator must possess. I think he is right in one universal respect but fatally defunct in another. Yes we should focus on others, but there's no need to marginalize our own trials. I love reading about, as a. lucas says, "the personal moral dilemmas of our existence." Tom (Thom-do you pronounce the h in there?) [MOD: For purposes of keeping subject line threads distinct, I've split this into two posts.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 25 May 2001 00:38:48 -0000 I usually just lurk here, but I could not resist responding to this thread! I am also a stay-at-home mother, now that my husband has achieved the income that makes that possible. When I was single I never believed that a woman could actually be fulfilled or happy staying at home changing diapers, etc. I went to school with the intention that I would have a career and children `the perfect balance', ofcourse! Then I got married and within four months I was pregnant, despite all precautions I took, at first I was devestated, because I knew that having a child would make it very difficult to finish my degree. Then T.J. entered the world and I finally realized what I had been given, the chance to help shape the life of one of Heavenly Father's children. No one can understand the way that feels until they are parents. Anyhow, When my children were very small I did work FT outside of the home, and I have to say that sometimes I miss the `freedom' (and stay-at-home-mothers will understand how a job outside of the home constitutes `freedom!), but as I watch my children grow and witness the miracle of little personalities developing, I realize that if I were at work FT I would miss most of their lives, and I wouldn't have as much oppurtunity to instill in them the values and knowledge that I feel are important to know at a young age in order to live a productive life. So-I tell myself each time I get restless that they will only be small for so long and I don't want to miss it, because in a few years they'll be in school for the majority of their day. When they start going to school I plan on reentering the workforce, but for now I am enjoying what I really believe is the most important job on earth, however cliched this may sound. -Tami Miller P.S. Oh, and working on a novel at night also helps me attain some measure of the personal satisfaction that a person who is carrying on a career feels. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: [AML] Mormon Literature as Distinct? Date: 24 May 2001 19:52:51 -0400 [MOD: Second half of post split for thread/subject line reasons.] --re the mormons-as-people-with-flaws issue being discussed, I'm curious if the champions of flawfullness will hold up evenson's _lies_ as an example of their cause. --re the guy who can't sell his novel b/c it gives us too much info about ourselves, would he please post it on his website or something so I can find out some things about myself? --re my post on the predicted olympics olympic impact on the lds book market, why have all lurking editors ignored me like some kind of knocking jw? --re this list in general, do you think mormon literature is so different from the literature of non-mormons that an entire separate genre must be created and a berlin wall set up to divide the two camps? Seems like a novel, in order to be "mormon," must contain explicit references to m. doctrine or organizations or families. Yet here I am, a mormon, and my favorite literature, for some reason, isn't found in the mormon section of my barnes and noble (btw, at 65th and columbus in nyc there is a "latter-day saints" section, sparse and miscatalogued as it is). I rather like a quote I read from an evenson-marcus interview done years back, though I have to modify the heart of it to comply with the rules on this moderated list: "Zimbabwean author Dambudzo Marachera says, 'Either you are a writer or you are not. If you are a writer for a specific nation or a specific race, then f--- you.'" The quote has stayed with me although perhaps some clever participant on this list can convert me over. Tom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 24 May 2001 22:01:00 -0700 On Thu, 24 May 2001 13:27:29 -0500 Anna WIGHT (any relation to Chris Wight, who, if my database of names is drawing matches from the right part of my memory, served in Cumorah circa 1997-9?) writes: > You haven't really experienced child -birth. You've witnessed it. > There's a difference. It's like telling someone who has lost a child > that you know exactly how they feel, when you haven't had the > experience. You can imagine how they feel, and sympathize, but you > don't really know. 5/24/01 OK, I don't have time for one of my long mind-numbing Martindevil-may-care rambles (I'm working on one for a different thread, and somehow I hurt my hand last wochenende (It hurt so much a few nights later that as Donna was wrapping my hand and talking about going to a dr. and urging me to take an 800mg Ibuprofen, and Angel (I call her Angelfoodcake Clark) came over to me and I petted her i heard myself repeatedly muttering, "Was ist das? Das ist eine Katze. Das ist ein Hund," a phrase I haven't repeated often since we used to play the noun-gender game in Herr Chambers class at Provo High the year (and the two before that) we all wore cracked liberty bells on our tassels). OK, I know exactly how I hurt it. At the fathers and sons outing last Friday night I was pushing Matthew in a tire swing and figured that if I held on instead of running on down the hill after giving him an underdog, it might make for a nice ride. "Dad, Dad, Dad," he said, as I was holding my head, feeling for blood. "I'm all right." I think I may have given myself a concussion--we had a nurse and a doctor there, I should have asked. Of course, that was my left hand. I'm not sure how I hurt my mouse-hand--except i was pushing a glass door open for someone and felt it pop or something.) Anyway, because my mouse-hand hurts and I have to use it on the keyboard (of course, I admire that great impressionist dentist Cezanne strapping the drills to his wrists and persevering with his work (OK, part of me wants to assume you all get the allusion, but part of me wants to say, 'Look through the TOC of Woody Allen's Without Feathers and find the essay that looks appropriate to the Martindevil-inspired joke), I'm going to keep this relatively short. There are more ways of losing a child than through death--indeed a lot of my writing explores the deep, deep pain of being bereft of children who yet live. I don't have to have a child die to draw upon a well of grief that can teach me how that feels. I do have more to say--something about understanding autism enough through observation and experience with ADHD that I can write, blah, blah, blah--but my hand says, "Hold, enough! The last dog is on the gallows." Anyway, Welshman to the list, Anna. If I recall, Chris had a learning disability too--Lysdexia (is There a dog? eine katze?) I think. Hollow Cluck [Harlow Clark] ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LDSWorld-Gems (by way of Ronn Blankenship ) Subject: [AML] Link to GEMS-Rec, _One More River to Cross_ Book Date: 24 May 2001 23:10:07 -0500 From LDSWorld-GEMS , 24 May 2001: "ONE MORE RIVER TO CROSS" NEEDED TO BE WRITTEN Recommendation written for LDSWorld-GEMS by Larry Blakely See: http://www.bookstore.byu.edu/catalog/product3249.html [snip of copyrighted material] LDSWorld-Gems webpage: http://www.ldsworld.com/gems/ To subscribe to Gems, send a message to "listserv@lists.ldsworld.com" with "subscribe ldsworld-gems" (without quotes) in the message body; or to leave the list, say "unsubscribe ldsworld-gems" - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 25 May 2001 00:48:07 -0500 At 01:36 PM 5/24/01 -0500, Anna Wight wrote: >I just found it interesting that people would question why someone had a job >for a female writer. Because you can get in a lot of legal trouble these days for discriminatory practices in hiring. There must be a valid job-related reason for specifying that only women (respt. men) will be considered for a job. For another perspective, consider the reaction to an ad that read "WHITE writer needed" . . . >It seems to me they want a real woman's perspective on >something. Not a man's perspective on what he thinks a woman's perspective >is. They also want an RM. Not someone who just imagines what it's like to >be a missionary. This _does_ sound like a valid job-related reason _to me_. It was not necessarily evident from the original job offer, though. As I said, I was being a little contrarian (IOW, playing "Scott's advocate") when I wrote that post: I was imagining the possibility that a non-LDS male writer could see that ad, apply for the job, be turned down, and file a discrimination lawsuit, and who knows what the EOE office or a judge would say or how long such a lawsuit might remain in the court system. Of course, one could always use Eric's argument that a "writer" is not necessarily an "employee" . . . something with which most of us with any experience as "writers" would probably agree, as "employees" usually expect to get _paid_ . . . :-7 -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 25 May 2001 01:02:18 -0600 Tracie Laulusa wrote: > I am not defending Weyland's > work per say (Did I spell that right? I've used that expression a thousand > times and don't think I've ever written it.) "per se" > What I will defend is his 'right' to > write whatever he wants in what ever way he wants. He does have a right to write whatever he wants in whatever way he wants. And his publisher has the right to publish it as is. And I have the right to say he's written a lot of stuff for years and hasn't improved, and I think that's sad. But you won't see me picketing Jack Weyland signings. Let him write, let his publisher publish, let his readers fork out their hard-earned cash for the [descriptive deleted], and let me shake my head because I think it's a sorrowful state. > Why is it that, so often > on this list, we want to be able to write and have published the stories we > want to write, but want to deny others the same right? I've never in this discussion said he shouldn't write what he wants to write. I am adamantly opposed to critics telling authors what they should write. That's why I've repeatedly said let Jack keep writing the stories he writes. But the very purpose of the critic is to call an author on _how_ he writes. To tell him when he did poorly and how to do better. I as a critic have every right to say, "Jack, you don't know POV from shinola. Writers should know that. Isn't it about time you learned?" That's a critic's job to do that. > It takes all kinds of writers and all > kinds of stories to reach all kinds of people. Critique his books if you > want. Hold it up to your literary standards in those critiques. But words > like 'ought to' and 'should' and declaring that he has a 'moral obligation' > really don't sit well with me. You're arguing two things here and pretending they're one. I agree, it takes all kinds of writers and all kinds of stories to reach all kinds of people. What it doesn't take is poor writing. His stories will still be his stories and still reach his audience if he wrote them better--not more literarily, not more snobbishly, not more opaque, not with lots of symbolism and forced style thrown in--just better. I think everyone "ought to" try to do better in their chosen profession, not just writers, not just Jack Weyland. I think my hero, Orson Scott Card, "ought to" improve over time too, not just writers I don't like. I would be ashamed of myself if I was offering my writing for sale and never tried to get good at it. I think I have a moral obligation to do the best I can, and make "the best I can" be better over time. I think Jack does too. And all writers. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN DUP Collecting Arizona "Honeymoon Trail" Stories for Book: (Phoenix) AZ Republic Date: 24 May 2001 23:06:42 -0500 (Phoenix) AZ Republic 20May01 N6 [From Mormon-News] DUP Collecting Arizona "Honeymoon Trail" Stories for Book PHOENIX, ARIZONA -- Many stories from early Mormon history about the trials, tribulations, and sacrifice of the pioneers are inspirational and even awe-inspiring. Perhaps none more so than the stories of the deeply devoted men and women who traveled the "Honeymoon Trail" from Arizona to St. George, Utah. For a period of approximately 40 years, from 1880 until the early 1900s, when the Mesa, Arizona Temple was completed, hundreds of couples made a long and difficult journey so that they could solemnize their marriages in the St. George Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Today, when people talk about going on a honeymoon, they are typically planning a trip to some resort or other exotic destination for rest, relaxation and romance. Not so for the hardy brides and grooms who traveled through a very inhospitable stretch of desert to reach the St. George Temple, some 400 miles away. Their "honeymoon" included a grueling trek through a barren and hostile desert and even required a water crossing over the Colorado River at Lee's Ferry. Trips along the Honeymoon Trail were typically undertaken in the fall so as to avoid the brutal heat of the Arizona sun. Unfortunately, that would often expose the travelers to the cold snow and bitter winds of the unforgiving Utah winters. The trips were so physically and financially taxing that some couples stayed in Utah for a while to recover their health and earn enough money to return to Arizona. Initially traveling by horse and wagon, improvements in transportation eventually allowed travel along the Honeymoon Trail by train and by automobile. No matter how they traveled, betrothed yet unmarried couples took steps to ensure proper decorum and propriety along the way. These steps included bringing chaperones along and using sacks of grain to separate females from males in the wagons. Now, after many years of being hidden in the journals and family histories of their descendants, the stories of these valiant couples are being brought to light for all to read and enjoy. As part of the celebration of the centennial of the Daughters of Utah Pioneers organization, the East Valley branch from Arizona is gathering the stories and compiling them into a book to be published later this year, prospectively titled "Arizona's Honeymoon Trail." Norma Ricketts, a former newspaper writer and editor of the new book, is very excited about the opportunity to see these fascinating perspectives presented to the audience of today. "This is a unique compilation," said Ricketts, "It's a part of Arizona history that hasn't been told." With more than 150 stories gathered so far, Ricketts will be able to create a compelling portrait of a most unusual commitment to a religious ideal. In addition to publishing the book, the Daughters of Utah Pioneers group will also place a memorial in Mesa's Pioneer Park this fall on Oct. 20, to commemorate the honeymooners and to honor their descendants. Once the stuff of memories, the stories of these brave pioneers will no doubt present an intriguing look into the past for those who read the book. Source: Arizona's 'Honeymoon Trail' (Phoenix) AZ Republic 20May01 N6 http://www.arizonarepublic.com/arizona/articles/0520honey20.html By Barbara Yost: The Arizona Republic Book to detail treks by Mormon pioneers >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] John BENNION, _Falling Toward Heaven_ (Review) Date: 25 May 2001 01:08:49 -0600 Alan Rex Mitchell wrote: > Or do we Mormons have to take everything at face value? If we do, then > perhaps we deserve only Weylund. Don't get me wrong. I think _Falling_ is a well-written book, very worth reading, and I enjoyed reading it. I'm merely saying it didn't affect me much emotionally--it was mainly at the intellectual level--and I gave my reasons why I think that happened. Your book _Angel of the Danube_, on the other hand, did not have a forced human relationship anywhere, and affected me emotionally as well as intellectually. I became emotionally involved in everyone's situations. But I couldn't get emotionally involved in the relationship in _Falling_ because I didn't believe in it. I think museum pieces are worth experiencing. I'd like to have a handy golem around the house. I just won't fall in love with it. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] Marilyn BROWN, _Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_ (Review) Date: 25 May 2001 01:48:35 -0600 >>> dmichael@wwno.com 05/23/01 01:02AM >>> > >I felt like Brown gave us some good insight into how it happened, >showing us how things escalated and why good people did a horrible thing >in a horrible situation that went wrong where they had to make >split-second decisions on what to do about it. You may want to argue >that her answer is inaccurate. But I don't think you can argue that it >was absent. The answer was inadequate. Just before the massacre, John D. Lee is shown = in fear and dread, pleading with God to know if they were doing the right = thing. Near the end of the novel, Lee explains to Elizabeth what happened = at the Meadows, saying "I let it happen because I believed other people--an= d God--wanted our preservation. And I felt that this was the only way it = could be accomplished." How did Lee come to believe this? Why is he so = confident? How could this man, the most heroic figure in the book, = participate in killing innocent and unarmed men, women, and children to = assure their silence, and not have any doubt that they did the right = thing? A question that serious demands more than rationalization and = excuses. MBA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tyler Moulton" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 25 May 2001 09:03:54 -0600 Terry Jeffress wrote: >>We can gripe all we want about the quality of some Mormon fiction, but = publishers have to limit their offering to the manuscripts they receive = and the further limitation of what they can sell. Covenant had research = that showed 90% of book buyers in Mormon bookstores were LDS housewives. = In most cases, these women were buying a book as a gift for a child or = friend, followed by buying the book for themselves. (Tyler, if you have more recent data, would you mind sharing?)<< Things haven't changed much from what you describe here. That is the = market that makes LDS fiction possible. (Fortunately, editing budgets sound like they've improved since you were = here. We still want the authors to do as much of the rewriting as they = can, but our editors have a little more latitude to assist them through = it.) Tyler - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Date: 24 May 2001 13:35:35 -0600 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > > I noticed the new (June 2001) Ensign has a cover article titled "Setting > Family Standards for Entertainment," written by a layperson. Although the > article says nothing new and bugs with its frequent use of meaningless > Mormonspeak words like "appropriate" and "inappropriate," it does manage to > completely avoid mentioning "R-rated." > > The showcased GA quote is from H. Burke Peterson: "I plead with you to leave > it alone. Stay away from any movie, video, publication, or music--regardless > of its rating--where illicit behavior and expressions are part of the > action." That would, by definition, include the Bible, a "publication" which has illicit behavior (Lot's daughters, for instance) and expressions (yes, the word "pi??" is in the Bible and means exactly what it means today_ as part of the action. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Nan McCulloch" Subject: [AML] Variety of Writers (was: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_) Date: 14 May 2001 13:29:16 -0600 I look at Jack Weyland, Janice Kapp Perry and Ruth Hale as pioneers in their respective fields. Each has contributed rather successfully to *Mormon Arts* in a very significant way. Each deserves far more respect than he/she receives. Each year the Hale/Orem honors Grandma Hale by presenting one of her plays. _I Came to Your Wedding_ is the current choice. Eric Snider, not being very fond of Ruth Hale plays, gave the play a scathing review with absolutely nothing good to say about it. It is interesting to me, an actor in the play, to greet an appreciative sold out house every night since we opened--and hear the comments from hundreds of people telling me how much they enjoyed the play and how funny they thought it was. These theater goers seem to be reasonably intelligent somewhat sophisticated folks. A Ruth Hale play is a Ruth Hale play. I did my first RHP in Long Beach, California in 1960. These farcical type plays were common in the '50's and '60's. My husband and I are probably as active as any theater goers in the *Valley.* We do Pioneer, Salt Lake Acting Co., SCERA, Castle, Villa, Draper Historic, Desert Star, and Hale Center--just to name a few. We don't compare what we see at Pioneer with Desert Star. We just enjoy/or not each theater experience. Isn't it nice that there is something out there for everyone? Nan Parkinson McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 25 May 2001 09:23:49 -0600 REWIGHT wrote: > > > > > Having been present at the birth of my five children, I'm sure I could > > do a fairly credible job. > > Yes, but you can only write from what you witnessed, what she told you, and > what you can imagine. You haven't really experienced child -birth. You've > witnessed it. There's a difference. It's like telling someone who has lost > a child that you know exactly how they feel, when you haven't had the > experience. You can imagine how they feel, and sympathize, but you don't > really know. At that point, I would suggest that it comes down to ability. Sure, a woman may have undergone pregnancy and a man can only imagine. If she, however, is not a good writer, her account may not be as convincing as the imaginative man, whose done research, witnessed it, and is a better writer. > > I don't think that it MUST come from that gender's perspective. I don't > > think we should feel that men can only write about male protagonists. > > But I'm glad that some female writer will get a change to attach herself > > to a project as exciting as this. > > > I think men can write from a female point of view, and women can write from > a males. I've done it, although as of yet I don't know how convincingly. > However, I will admit, that although I can imagine what men might be > thinking, I don't really know. And if the novel being written is about a > female missionary's experience, how does a man know what goes on? He's not > there. He's not even a witness to it. He may see what she does in public, > but he's not going home with her to find out what she does there, or how she > gets along with her companions, or how she feels, or the trials she faces. What if he, say, is a guy like me whose been on a mission himself, has had two daughters go on missions. Isn't it possible that a man could get enough information to write convincingly about the life of a sister missionary. Let's say this male writer does that, and then has a bunch of female returned missionaries read what he wrote, and he finds that they mostly agree. That certainly seems possible. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Starling" Subject: [AML] Re: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 25 May 2001 09:23:27 -0600 Go Beth! >I suspect it's this way with Jack Weyland's work. People with literary=20= >education see the faults in his writing. People without the education=20 >find great pleasure in his stories.=20 > >Beth Hatch =20 As one of the producers of the upcoming film "Charly, Forever" , based on = Jack's best-selling novel "Charly" (assuming we can find the rest of the = funding), I'm very grateful that probably more than a half a million = readers (140,000 copies x avg 3 readers per copy) have laughed and cried = at the "simplistic" romance between a stuffy BYU returned missionary and = an agnostic, sophisticated New York beauty with a rapier wit and a = disarming smile. I hope they all come to see the movie, and that they = bring all their family, friends, and neighbors. I'm not a literary critic (or even a movie critic), but I know what I = like. And I know that I've bawled my eyes out at the end of reading = Jack's novel several times, and through nine drafts of the screenplay. To = my (feeble) mind, any piece of literature that can impact me (and hundred = of thousands of others) to that extent must have _something_ going for it. I'm with Beth. I'll just appreciate the roses and not count the thorns. Robert Starling - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stephen Goode (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 28 May 2001 12:18:18 -0500 Influencing Mormon Culture I'm trapped somewhere between being a mainstream, party-line Mormon, and an unconventional crusader against the Mormon culture that seems to me to be backwards and far too entrenched in old ideas that are completely unrelated to doctrine. The difference between doctrinal truths and cultural practices seems obvious to me on almost any point, but I often get an accusatory stare when I deride something that has little to do with tenets of faith and everything to do with a cultural bias. On matters of doctrine, I rarely find myself disagreeing, and when I do, my first and last inclination is to assume that I am in the wrong. I'm not talking about disagreeing on interpretation. I have no fear of doing that, but I also have no problem accepting the words of modern apostles and prophets at face value as being absolutely true, or if not absolutely true, at least binding. I wonder that many Mormons do not see there being a line between culture and doctrine. Those that do cannot seem to define where the line is drawn. As an example of old ideas that I would like to crusade against are the ideas about physical contact between men. How we got from John resting on Jesus' breast and Paul's holy kisses to the arms-length style of modern Mormon men I do not know, but for selfish reasons, I would like to see the culture change. Perhaps the most ridiculous manifestation of this cultural bias is the back-slapping, post-ordinance embraces I see regularly in priesthood meetings. Personally, I feel like a baby being burped on those rare occasions when I get a hug from a Mormon man. I contrast that to a friend I once was having a deep conversation with about his father who had abandoned him as a child. He was not a member of the Church, but was a man of faith and active in another church. As we stood talking, he rapidly became emotional. I don't remember the comment I made, but it evoked a torrent of tears from him as he wrapped his arms around my chest and back and pressed his soggy face against my shoulder. There were no slaps against each other's back, no conscious effort to make sure that all contact points where above the waist, no side-saddled avoidance of a full-length connection. With my penchant for empathy, I began to cry too, and fifteen to twenty minutes later, we separated. The entire right half of my shirt was drenched and his was similarly wetted. Since I have no influence on doctrine at all, my only opportunity is to influence the culture, which seems to me can only be done by cultural means. In a story I've begun, put on hold, begun again, and is now currently on hold, I've tried to challenge a number of cultural attitudes and beliefs. I fear I am taking on too much in one story. Perhaps it is not truly artistic to even have a motive to influence Mormon culture, yet I scoff at people who extol the virtues of pure, unintentioned art. I don't believe there are artists that have risen above agendas. Perhaps I presume too much to want to change our culture, but surely the purpose of literature is not to simply capture culture. If our culture is what it is because our doctrine is what it is, do I really think that when I see the Savior, I'll give him a firm handshake and a heartfelt, "Thank you?" I hope our meeting will be more like with the man who soaked my shirt, that I'll want to linger. I doubt he'll have dirty feet, but I know I'll have enough tears in store to wash them. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] New Yorker Mormon Cartoon Date: 25 May 2001 09:39:11 -0600 Here is the text accompanying the New Yorker cartoon that mentions Mormonism: CAPTION: Deconstructing Lunch (In a school cafeteria, a boy's lunch is analyzed for what it reveals about his parent's values/politics. 1) It's a sandwich: That, in itself, means you are a normal child from a normal family. 2) It's on whole-wheat bread: O.K., so we're liberal, big-city Democrats. 3) But it's the big-brand, easy-to-chew kind: I didn't say "radical." I said "liberal." 4) Bologna and Mayo: People always mistake us for Republicans! 5) It's Kosher Bologna: It's not about religion-it's about taste. 6) Lettuce: Other parents may not care about their kids' health, but I do. 7) Look, there's a slice of American cheese in there: If you want to become a Mormon, I'll love you anyway. I just want you to be happy.) CARTOONIST: Roz Chast PUBLISHED IN THE NEW YORKER: 1/31/2000 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis Manning" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 25 May 2001 11:00:36 -0600 [MOD: This is my compilation of three posts from Travis.] Travis Manning wrote: > > Is Dutcher proselytizing in his movies? We discussed the effectiveness >of > > proselyting through this medium, and I believed, yes he is. D. Michael Martindale wrote: >I don't think he's proselyting, any more than I'm proselyting when I'm >offered a drink at a party and turn it down. That could lead to the >quesion of whether I'm a Mormon, which could lead into a discussion >about the Gospel, which could eventually lead to a baptism. But I >wouldn't call it proselyting. I was just being a Mormon and doing what >Mormons do. > >Dutcher is just a Mormon telling stories that a Mormon would tell. If >that leads to some baptisms, great. But I don't think it qualifies as >proselyting, any more than the mere act of living the Gospel from day to >day is proselyting. Michael, I disagree with you, I think "living the gospel day to day" is proselyting. What we do and say in our every day lives impacts people and "letting our light so shine" is a way, or form, of proselyting. There's no question in my mind. Going out on the streets door-to-door as a missionary is not the only form of proselyting, if that is the definition you are looking at. "Dutcher is telling stories that a Mormon would tell," but it is a form of proselyting. I don't believe we can disregard Dutcher's two films as a way of proselyting. Turning down a drink at a party is also a form of proselyting. It's all part of setting a good example. It's subtle, but it is proselyting, IMO. Travis Manning Thom Duncan wrote: >As I've said before on this list, sometimes we are own worst enemies >when it comes to being understood by the world. On the one hand, we >wonder why the world sees us as weird, and on the other hand, we want to >hide those aspects of our religion that have universal appeal from the >world. Showing a sacrament meeting on film sends one clear message to >the world--that we aren't all that different from them, despite what >they may have read in the history books. They're likely to think: "I >still don't get all that temple stuff the Mormons do, but their Sunday >services look a lot like mine." > >Showing missionaries relaxing may not make a convert on the spot to a >viewer of _God's Army_, but the next time that person sees the >missionaries riding down the street, that person is less inclined to >think of those young men as brain-washed automatons. Thom-- Would you consider Dutcher's movie-making efforts as a form of proselyting? Travis Manning Scott Parkin wrote: >When Dutcher shows that >young men thrust into missionary service are forced to address issues >of faith directly, and sometimes struggle with that faith, he tells a >general truism. We all struggle with our faith, or at least I believe >we should. To portray the struggle honestly, we need to show that >some don't come to successful resolution or we deny the partial faith >of so many people who still struggle with some basic questions. Scott, Do you believe that Dutcher's depicting missionaries struggling with their faith is "proselyting?" Travis Manning _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] _Irreantum_ Proofers Needed in Utah County Date: 25 May 2001 14:36:19 -0600 Are there any proofers in Utah County who could proof the 96-page spring Irreantum by June 4th? You would pick up and drop off the proof either in Provo or Orem (let me know which address you prefer). If you're willing to help, contact Chris Bigelow ASAP at chris.bigelow@unicitynetwork.com. Thanks! Chris Bigelow ---- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, the literary quarterly published by the Assocation for Mormon Letters, send $4 to AML, P.O. Box 51364, Provo, UT 84605-1364. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] Neil LABUTE, "Layover" (New Yorker, 5/28/01) Date: 25 May 2001 09:54:51 -0600 Mormon filmmaker Neil LaBute has a slight piece (just a two-page spread, accompanied by a nipple-baring illustration from 1965) in the new New Yorker. Called "Layover," it's about a disingenuous guy who tries to pick up a woman in an airport cafeteria. Then we learn that the guy's wife and kids are waiting for him elsewhere in the cafeteria. It's just kind of a creepy look inside a male psyche that, despite marriage, is still obsessed with sexual conquest. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ Date: 25 May 2001 12:37:20 -0400 Elizabeth Hatch wrote: > I have very little education in music. I've gone to musical events with > my mother-in-law, who has a great deal of music education. After a > particular Christmas concert, for instance, I was babbling about how > beautiful the songs had been and how impressed I was with the > performance. She pointed out that the harmony had been off in one song, > the soloist on another song had done something wrong, etc. etc. etc. > Her criticism did nothing to lessen the pleasure I felt. In fact, I > felt sorry for her! > > I suspect it's this way with Jack Weyland's work. People with literary > education see the faults in his writing. People without the education > find great pleasure in his stories. > > Beth Hatch I was going to stay out of this because, as I've previously posted, I used to be in Jack Weyland's Rapid City ward, we played racquetball together, and were teaching colleagues at the same school. He was and is a good friend and it is hard to be objective when you really, really, like someone on a personal level. Despite some of the boneheaded factual blunders I've made in posts on this list, I (scout's honor) have lots of education connected to literature. This does not stop me from enjoying a wide range of writing from Milton and Shakespeare to Weyland and Wolverton (I just picked up "Wizardborn" from the library and got the most peculiar look from the librarian Could we please have some less embarrassing covers?) What all the education has done for me is widen my horizons. I know that not everyone can sit down with, say, "Gravity's Rainbow," and get through it. Pynchon's language and form (epic) are simply too intimidating. Which may be why he wrote "Vineland," essentially a dumbed-down version of GR. It took some education for me to be able to appreciate much of the "great" literature, and before I got this education, this body of work was like a closed book. Most of my fellow PhDs that I know are voracious readers and share my attitude that reading is a lot like eating. There is a world of food out there and it is ridiculous to limit yourself to just one cuisine. Granted, some gourmands may turn up their noses at a Whopper, but that's probably because of low-grade beef and mushy bread--not because there is anything wrong with eating a hamburger. A good burger made right can be just as satisfying as veal. Depending on my mood, I may want to engage in the elevated discourse of Paradise Lost, or I may want the engrossing suspense of Patricia Cornwell. Or I may want the Book of Mormon. And there are times I will read Jack Weyland and enjoy his work, my education notwithstanding. The experience you had with your mother-in-law, I think, had more to do with her disposition than her training. How does she feel about your hamburgers? Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 25 May 2001 11:49:13 -0500 Anna wrote: > [Y]ou can only write from what you witnessed, what she told you, and what you > can imagine. You haven't really experienced child-birth. You've witnessed it. > There's a difference....You can imagine how they feel, and sympathize, but you > don't really know. The only experience any of us truly owns is our own. A woman who's experienced child-birth has experienced only the birth of her own child, not the birth of another woman's. Is the experience the same to all women? No. Some face it with joy and love, others with fear, some feel only pain, some feel bliss. A woman can't write from experience about child-birth in general, she can only write from experience about her own. Some brilliant writers have writen from experience, but some are guided mainly by empathy and imagination. Shakespeare never experienced the life of a woman or a Moor, but he captured their feelings and experience better than most women or Moors could ever dream of doing. Tolstoy's women ring true (female friends agree). Emily Dickinson's imagination encompassed far more than she ever experienced in her cozy town. Steinbeck described brilliantly (according to people who like him - I can't stand him) the lives of poor people he saw as a journalist - he never lived their lives. No one can know my experiences better than I do, but it's entirely possible that a talented and empathetic writer might describe them better than I ever could, and perhaps with more honesty. I love primary biographical material, but much is written badly, and what's written beautifully may be even so un-trustworthy. Empathy is a hallmark of good writing and good acting. A woman can play a man, a man a woman, a white man a black man, an Asian a European. If not, there's no such thing as acting. So it is for writing, else we're left only with autobiography, essays, journalism, history and speculative fiction as literature. > He may see what she does in public, but he's not going home with her to find > out what she does there, or how she gets along with her companions, or how > she feels, or the trials she faces. Unless she plans to write an autobiography, she'll have to use imagination and empathy herself to write a more general experience, or to write an experience that isn't precisely hers. > ... it sounds like they really want it from someone who has actually > experienced > it. Not someone who reads about it and imagines it. That's okay by me, but it's unnecessary. Someone who studies and imagines and has skill can do just as good a job or better. > I'm sure if one wanted to, anyone could write a story about a femal > missionary. But if what they truly want is someone who has lived through it, > then I see nothing wrong with asking for that. No strong disagreement, but I'd be interested in knowing whether you think there's merit to the argument that Asians should be hired to play Asian roles rather than Europeans in make-up (a point of contention when they cast _Miss Saigon_), and if so, whether Linda Hunt should have been hired to play a man in _The Year of Living Dangerously_ (for which she won an Oscar), a white man should ever play Othello, or a maiden should ever play a dowager. I think requiring personal experience is an afront to the concept of art, but I don't know whether the project in question is meant to be entirely artistic. Jim Picht - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Sean Connery (Compilation) Date: 28 May 2001 12:45:56 -0500 [MOD: Here's a set of several comments in-passing... Although I don't want to take up much list volume with this, I thought it was okay if I could make it so that this takes up only a single slot.] Thom Duncan: Richard Johnson wrote: > my mother used to have a saying "Every one to his own taste as the old > woman said when she kissed the cow." > It is fascinating to note that as a person who is young, and another > gender, you have figured out women's tastes. I am a lot older, but I > haven't figured them out yet, but my wife, last evening, commented on > hearing that a new Connery movie was coming, "the subject doesn't sound > like much, but I can always go and watch Sean Connery". By the way, she > snickered aloud when I read her your last comment. To use the words of my nineteen year-old daughter: "Sean Connery is hot." Tami Miller: I have a suggestion, maybe all of a woman's attraction towards Connery is not only `past looks' but an attraction towards his deep, commanding voice, his arching brows, his foreign-accent, what I personally see as great stage-presence, etc. etc. I myself am not much for a hairy chest, but I do find that Sean Connery has attractive qualities, even at this point in his life. (Don't tell my hubby!) Scott Tarbet: > 2. I also know many women who (how shall I say this?) find > Bro. Connery quite appealing despite his age, and who would > if the circumstances were obliging) develop a bond with the > man. And there ain't a thing you or I can do about that ... > except sit back and be jealous. > > scott And try, try to be like him. Try, try, try. -- the other Scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 25 May 2001 14:15:51 -0500 [I'm not a literary critic (or even a movie critic), but I know what I like. And I know that I've bawled my eyes out at the end of reading Jack's novel several times, and through nine drafts of the screenplay. To my (feeble) mind, any piece of literature that can impact me (and hundred of thousands of others) to that extent must have _something_ going for it. I'm with Beth. I'll just appreciate the roses and not count the thorns. Robert Starling] Here! Here! Isn't the whole purpose of a novel to move someone? Even if you're educating someone, you still want them to feel something. Perfect writing, with no grammatical errors means nothing if there's nothing for the reader to grasp onto. Reading novels should be an escape, not an opportunity to find fault. So Weyland's writing isn't perfect. But obviously he's doing something right. He tells stories that people want to read. He creates characters that people know. And often he teaches something in the process. Not every writer can do that. It's a writers dream to be able to make money doing what you love, and to have a following of people who love what you do. Seems Weyland has accomplished that, and I don't begrudge him that. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 25 May 2001 13:42:55 -0600 REWIGHT wrote: > > All they are interested in is whether or not the story moved them (I know > one woman whose criterion for a "good" book is "It made me cry"), or if it > contains questionable material or profanity, or if it's about people they > identify with. Larger questions of how the words are strung together don't > even enter the picture. > > As a writer, the highest compliment that could be paid to me isn't "This is > well written". It's "You made me cry (laugh, escape, imagine, see, feel, > etc.)" I write to move the reader. To me, it would depend on how I made the reader cry as to whether I would consider it a compliment or not. It's the difference between bathos and true emotion. For instance, everybody likes babies. Put them on stage or in a film and you have won the audience over before a single word is said. Have something happen bad to that baby, and you make people cry. But are they crying because of what your writing or because of the universal love we all have for babies? Now, introduce a serial-killer into your book or film, and than have something bad happen to him at the end. THEN, if your audience is crying, you've accomplished something as a writer. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Ongoing Backlog Date: 28 May 2001 12:52:25 -0500 Folks, We have an ongoing backlog of between 20 and 30 posts. I'm going to keep working on posting them, but I don't plan to post any more today, since it's a holiday. (Many people receive this at work or are likely to be out of town and may find too large a deluge of messages on Tuesday morning dismaying--one reason why I didn't post at all this Saturday and didn't go all the way up to the full 30 posts limit on Friday.) Please feel free to keep the posts coming--but understand that it's likely to be a while before individual posts see the light of day. And please keep in mind what I said about trying to limit yourself to 2-3 posts a day. If you have several comments on a single thread or topic, please put them into a single post. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 25 May 2001 11:24:12 -0600 Anna Wight wrote: >Actually, I think you can write convincingly about something you haven't >experienced. It takes homework, and I think it helps if you can relate your >own experiences to it. That's what fiction writing is all about. But if I >as a writer, do write about something I haven't experience, I'm not going to >go around telling people that I know exactly how they feel. Absolutely! I think this is one of the areas that new writers often get tangled in--having been taught to "write what you know" they assume that they can only draw on the experience that they've already had as the bases for their stories. Especially among college students, that often translates to some pretty mundane stuff and yet another entry in the endless tome of what it was like to be five years old and growing up in . But one can easily expand what they know by learning more, a basic concept that appears to be anathema to a great many writers. If you want to know more about what it means to experience childbirth, you *can* learn more through reading books, watching the event, and interviewing those who have direct experience. The more research you do, the more likely you are to pick up that key detail that will bring verity to your depiction. Too many writers are lazy when it comes to research. They expect writing to be a purely artistic endeavor consisting of sitting in a darkened room and suffering over their own memories and lost hopes until pure Art flows from their fingers. They don't research, they don't rewrite, and they certainly don't seek editorial input--and rarely accept what they do receive. I don't claim to be an Artist. But I do claim to be a decent writer (I make a living as a writer in the computer industry, so I must have a few skills) if not a good one. And I believe that just as luck comes most often to the well-prepared, inspiration come most often to those who research and learn more. Yes, people should write what they know, but don't be afraid to expand what it is that they know. >I just found it interesting that people would question why someone had a job >for a female writer. It seems to me they want a real woman's perspective on >something. Not a man's perspective on what he thinks a woman's perspective >is. They also want an RM. Not someone who just imagines what it's like to >be a missionary. As a closet feminist (are men allowed to be feminists; I was once voted an "honorary woman" by some feminine feminists at a company where it seemed that only women were competent--does that count?) I find the mere fact of our concern about seeking a real female RM to be unfortunate. Of course we need a real perspective from a woman's side. I've read and heard more stories about male missionaries than I really care to have read, and I'm kinda tired of them. There hasn't really been anything new in them in the last fifty years. Yet another expose of how silly Elder missionaries are fills me with a colossal sense of "so what?" The only thing that could revive my interest in missionary stories is something like this that tells it from a completely different POV, and hopefully with a different focus and slant. I hope it flies. I will definitely read it when it comes out (or beforehand, if I can find a way to jump the gun). Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 25 May 2001 12:08:15 -0600 On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 01:36:42PM -0500, REWIGHT wrote: > I once wrote a poem on giving a child up for adoption. I was told > by people who had gone through this, that it was exactly how they > felt. But I don't really know what it's like to give up a child for > adoption and I'm not going to say I do. I only imagine it, based on > my feelings for my own children. Someone with good writing skills > who has experienced it, could probably do a better job. Christ was never a woman. He never gave up a child for adoption. And yet we all accept that he can understand the pains we experience in our lives. And we all accept that we should strive to be like him. So I would conclude that we all have the capacity to feel what others feel. I think you give too much credit to gender and personal experiences and too little credit to human imagination and empathy. One human's experience is vastly similar to another's. Sure, one may have lost a child the other lost a job, but we all have had experienced loss, sin, grief, redemption, joy, and the full range of human emotion. I think many people take the adage "write what you know" too literally. I hope I never have to endure another Albert Brooks movie about the comic tragedy of a writer. He seems to only write scripts about people who write. We all know how it feels to live as a human being. We all understand love, longing, jealousy, and fear. We may exist in vastly different circumstances, but we all have the same equipment for dealing with those circumstances. On many occasions, I have heard people say, "I could never have lived in the times of the early saints. They had to endure so much." But do you really believe that the saints in the 1800s had something different than we have? Do you believe that they had a different physiology or that their spirits somehow gave them different qualities than available in spirits of today? Don't you think that those early saints would look at the trials of our day (drugs, media influences, peer pressure, promiscuity) and give a prayer of thanks that they don't have to endure such trials. I believe that human beings each have generally the same equipment for dealing with life. We profess a doctrine that God will not try us beyond our means. But I maintain a private heresy (to co-opt Scott Parkin's phrase), that God has created human beings so that they can endure _all_ things. No matter what life, fate, God, the devil, or your mother-in-law, throws in your path, you already have the innate ability to deal with the situation. And we all have the same emotional pallet with which we color our experiences. We also all have the same set of human emotions to express the feelings we have in relation to the events in our life. I believe that grief, regardless of the cause, feels the same for everyone. I may not have lost a child, but that possibility exists, and I can certainly apply my understanding of my love for my children and my experience with other losses to produce empathy. As you can tell, I react pretty strongly when someone tries to tell me that as a man I cannot write a convincing birth scene, or that as a white man I cannot write a convincing scene of oppression. I personally may not have the skill to write a convincing scene, but I don't think that you can exclude an entire class of the human race as unable to share in the experience of some other class. And someone, somewhere will write the scene you though could not be written. -- Terry Jeffress | It is a good rule, after reading a new | book, never to allow yourself another new AML Webmaster and | one till you have read an old one in AML-List Review Archivist | between. -- C. S. Lewis - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 25 May 2001 14:30:57 -0600 On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 02:12:19PM -0500, REWIGHT wrote: > Frankly if someone droned on and on about the intellectual > aspects of something I wrote, and didn't mention the emotional, then > I would feel that I had failed. If someone takes the time to write an intellectual treatise on your work, you have moved that person -- one way or the other. You have either inspired someone to take the time to see why your words created such a positive effect, or you have disgusted someone so thoroughly that she wants to analyze how your book creates the desire to fling the work against a wall. The entire field of literary criticism exists to argue about what works and does not work in fiction. In spite of what prescriptive critics purport, without the text, the critic's job doesn't exist. So even if you don't take intellectual musings as the highest compliment, you should still accept the compliment. -- Terry Jeffress | I have never met an author who admitted | that people did not buy his book because AML Webmaster and | it was dull. -- Somerset Maugham AML-List Review Archivist | - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Hale Theater (was: Variety of Writers) Date: 25 May 2001 14:30:56 -0600 Nan McCulloch wrote: > > It is interesting to me, an actor > in the play, to greet an appreciative sold out house every night since we > opened--and hear the comments from hundreds of people telling me how much > they enjoyed the play and how funny they thought it was. These theater > goers seem to be reasonably intelligent somewhat sophisticated folks. The majority of theatre-goers of the Hale Center Theatre never darken the door of other theatres. They are not theatre-goers per se, but are Hale Center Theatre goers. Their plays appeal to a certain kind of person and as long as they continue in that vein, they'll have audiences. They don't love theatre as much as they love laughing and being heart-warmed. Nothing wrong with that, in my estimation, by the way. > A > Ruth Hale play is a Ruth Hale play. I did my first RHP in Long Beach, > California in 1960. These farcical type plays were common in the '50's and > '60's. My husband and I are probably as active as any theater goers in the > *Valley.* We do Pioneer, Salt Lake Acting Co., SCERA, Castle, Villa, > Draper Historic, Desert Star, and Hale Center--just to name a few. I suggest you are in the minority of people who attend the Hale Theater. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: [AML] Gay Agenda (was: Mormon Cinema) Date: 25 May 2001 14:38:55 -0600 Not only does Hollywood promote it, but some YA authors do as well. Two years ago I attended the ALAN (for adolscent literature) meeting which followed NCTE (National Council of Teachers of English) in Denver. The first day of meetings was wonderful. The second day quickly denegrated into an "I'm gay and your students should read my books to understand what it means to be gay" themed coming out party. The first speaker was interesting; the second tolerable; but by the end of the day, I was really tired of hearing about the agenda and had lost any patience I might have had with the topic and its supporters. Too bad they all seem to believe in over-kill. Lu Ann Staheli Gary Davis wrote: > Thom Duncan wrote of Kieth Merrill: >This is a man who said that the > film "In and Out" is bad because it promotes the gay lifestyle. Nothing > could be further from the truth.< > > Oh pleeeze! Anyone who doesn't recognize that Hollywood has a big time > gay agenda is simply not paying attention. Check out "Victor Victoria", > "My Best Friend's Wedding", "Big Daddy" or any of a dozen TV shows this > past season with major gay characters. Plain and simple, they assault > our values at every turn. That's precisely why we need people like Mitch > Davis and Richard Dutcher. > > Gary Davis - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 25 May 2001 14:45:02 -0600 Is anyone taking into account the fact that Weyland himself admits in today's market he wouldn't get a book accepted or published if he hadn't already established a track record? I've heard him speak at a couple of writer's conferences and he always credits his editor for patience as he writes, then rewrites, then rewrites again and again to the suggestions she gives him. Weyland was among the first YA LDS authors and it seems many of his readers of today are the children of the original readers. As for parents directing their children to other books, sometimes they do, but usually peers have a bigger influence on what kids read. And honestly, I've found that my student's parents are the ones who suggest books by Jack Weyland, Anita Stansfield, Rachel Nunes, Lee Nelson, etc. (including authors from this listserve) because they have read and loved the stories themselves. Each of us is entitled to his/her own personal taste in reading, and no one has the right to tell anyone their taste is wrong. Lu Ann Staheli - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 25 May 2001 15:08:02 -0600 At 09:23 AM 5/25/01 -0600, you wrote: >What if he, say, is a guy like me whose been on a mission himself, has >had two daughters go on missions. Isn't it possible that a man could >get enough information to write convincingly about the life of a sister >missionary. Let's say this male writer does that, and then has a bunch >of female returned missionaries read what he wrote, and he finds that >they mostly agree. That certainly seems possible. I've noticed that in the romance genre, we can generally identify books written by men, even though they use a feminine nom de plume. But I've certainly read writers who do a great job of writing from the POV of the other gender. I think a lot of it has to with observation rather than assuming that other people think like you do. Some of it has to do with getting input from members of the opposite gender: "You have to change this. A guy wouldn't do this in a hundred years. You character will come across like a dork if he acts this way." You can get some basic hints from writers like John Grey, also. You may not agree with everything he says, but he does bring up some issues you may not have considered just because you think the way you do and not like someone else. barbara hume barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 25 May 2001 16:30:05 -0600 I don't think Anna has had any problems jumping right into the fray here. Glad to see you here! I wrote this part: >All they are interested in is whether or not the story moved them (I = know >one woman whose criterion for a "good" book is "It made me cry"), or if = it >contains questionable material or profanity, or if it's about people = they >identify with. Larger questions of how the words are strung together = don't >even enter the picture. On Thu, 24 May 2001 14:12:19 -0500, REWIGHT wrote: >As a writer, the highest compliment that could be paid to me isn't "This= is >well written". It's "You made me cry (laugh, escape, imagine, see, = feel, >etc.)" I write to move the reader. I don't write for literary = achievement. >That's not to say that both can't be accomplished. But when someone = reads >my work, I don't want them looking to see how the words are strung = together. >I want them to read to feel something. For me, that is the larger >question. Did this move you? Does it speak to you? Do you recognize = the >characters? Which character do you relate to? What made you cry? What = made >you laugh? Did you enjoy the adventure? Could you see what I wrote? I think you've identified your audience and your purpose. The point I = would like to make, however, is that there are readers who *won't* be = emotionally moved if they don't like your writing style. This is not to say you = should be writing to them, but to remember that if you don't think they should criticize your writing on an intellectual basis, you shouldn't criticize them for not having the reaction you want. I hope you have great success with your writing! Selling a novel would = be great. Good luck! Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] Child-Appropriate Art Date: 25 May 2001 16:46:16 -0600 Nah, Foghorn Leghorn has to be Moroni, "I say boy, pay attention, I say I've told ya three times already, and ya still don't get it. Here I Monday the fourth time, son. Ya gotta keep focused! Ya gotta keep your eye on the ball, son. Eye! Ball! It's a gag, son, don'tcha get it?" Roy Schmidt >>> Frank Maxwell 05/24/01 11:20AM >>> Warner Bros. could do this, too. They could do an animated feature on Mormon history. It could star the Tasmanian Devil as Gov. Lilburn Boggs of Missouri, Sylvester the cat as the treacherous John C. Bennett, Foghorn Leghorn as blowhard Illinois Gov. Thomas Ford, and Wily Coyote and Elmer Fudd as assorted mobsters. Yosemite Sam could play Porter Rockwell, if he promises to not cut his hair and to be more careful where he points his guns. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Is It Good? (was: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_) Date: 25 May 2001 22:46:52 -0500 "Are you a good witch, or a bad witch?" asked Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. I enjoy quality in writing, and poor writing can be a big distractor. Yet, when it comes down to whether or not I enjoy a book or film, I have very basic criteria. If I am reading for pleasure and the book touches me, it is a good book. Keith Merrill shares my feelings about what makes a good book or a good film. He wrote a sneak preview review for Meridian Magazine. He is talking about the new film directed by Mitch Davis, _The Other Side of Heaven_: "I loved this film. It touched me. It entertained me. It took me on a journey to a place I have never been. It enlightened me, and inspired me. It touched my heart and made me cry. What else could you want from a movie?" Or a book? Those are the things that make it good for me. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: [AML] Hale Theater (was: Variety of Writers) Date: 25 May 2001 02:25:30 -0600 >Eric Snider, >not being very fond of Ruth Hale plays, gave the play a scathing review with >absolutely nothing good to say about it. I wouldn't say "absolutely nothing good to say about it," since I spent a few paragraphs talking about the good acting. But the play itself, as a script? Yeah, terrible. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: [AML] Posting Stories (was: Mormon Literature as Distinct?) Date: 26 May 2001 09:05:56 -0600 On Thu, 24 May 2001 19:52:51 -0400 "Tom Johnson" writes: > --re the guy who can't sell his novel b/c it gives us too much info > about ourselves, would he please post it on his website or > something so I can find out some things about myself? I wouldn't mind doing that -- much the same way plays have been posted in the past for discussion -- as long as I don't lose any of my copywrights. Anyone know what is possible? scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ Date: 26 May 2001 14:00:40 -0500 Beth Hatch wrote: > [M]y mother-in-law... has a great deal of music education... She pointed > out that the harmony had been off in one song, the soloist on another song > had done something wrong, etc.... > > People with literary education see the faults in [Weyland's] writing. > People without the education find great pleasure in his stories. This isn't entirely a matter of education. I have a fair amount of music education. I rarely turn my nose up at amateur performances, because they're often the work of people who perform for the joy of it, a gift to the listener. I accept gifts with gratitude, even hokey home-made gifts which I often treasure for years. My standard is different for performances for which I pay. There I expect a degree of professionalism, unless I know I'm going to a performance of grade-schoolers that's meant to raise money for a worthy cause. But even then I expect something that's been thoughtfully prepared, diligently rehearsed. I've read a couple of Weyland's books and found them clumsily touching. They were well-intentioned, contained some worthwhile ideas, but were clearly not the work of a literary titan. Fine. As long as I know what I'm getting and I don't mind the price, I'm willing to buy. I sometimes prefer cheetohs to K-Paul's creme brulee, but at K-Paul prices, I'd be pretty offended to be offered cheetohs. I don't lack a certain amount of literary (and culinary) sophistication and training. Even so, I'm not bothered by the sale of books like Weyland's, and I'm even willing to consume them on occasion. That said, amateurs and professionals alike have a duty to get better over time. I've performed in piano recitals at age ten and at age 30. I was much better at 30, and would have been horrified after 20 years of study to be at the same level. I eventually took a year of lessons from a teacher at the Moscow conservatory who specializes in preparing professional concert pianists for performance. (I must note that she didn't take me on because of my pianistic brilliance, but because of my cold, hard western currency.) Even Horowitz said that he always had to grow as a pianist, or he'd shrink as an artist. Stagnation just isn't a valid option for someone who cares about his craft or his art. If Weyland isn't getting better (assuming he's still alive - I was out of town for a couple of weeks, I'm not up on the history of this thread, and I don't know whether we're flogging a dead horse or a live one), critics have an obligation to tell him so, the more so since he writes for sale, not just to hand out his stories as gifts for friends. It doesn't matter whether his readers are educated/sophisticated or not. His stories may have a primary audience, but given the right time and mood, we sophisticates can enjoy him, too. But that's seperate from the issue of criticism. Even as I'm enjoying a cheetoh, I don't forget that it's still a cheetoh. If only cheetohs could get better with time. But then, they wouldn't be cheetohs anymore, would they? Jim Picht - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: [AML] Brady UDALL Date: 26 May 2001 20:31:51 -0400 Hi, I'm quite ignorant about Brady Udall's lds background--is he mormon? = I just finished his latest, and had read hounds last year and fell in = love with buckeye the elder and beautiful places. Has the discussion of = edgar mint already occupied a stream of posts on this list, or not? Can = anyone refer me to some links with udall interviews and other = information (besides the www.edgarmint.com page)? Thanks Tom (note to Thom: I was just kidding about the h thing. When I was little = I spelled my name that way for fun, and everyone pronounced it with the = h, frustrating me until I gave up and just spelled it normally. good = luck to you, though.) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 27 May 2001 17:30:25 -0600 It's an interesting mix. I'd like to do this novel . . .I've never been on a mission, yet my kids have, and I've been close to female and male RM's. Still, the bottom line is a good writer being able to create a world. As a ghostwriter, my work takes me places I've NEVER been, yet people say that I render their voice as if it were they speaking themselves . No doubt about it--a writer has to have material, something she's writing about. Yet her skill is what turns that material into believable art. [Pronoun apologies to all the fine male writers out there]. Cathy Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 1400 West 2060 North Helper UT 84526 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 27 May 2001 11:52:02 -0600 >[MOD: This is my compilation of three posts from Travis.] > >Travis Manning wrote: > >> > Is Dutcher proselytizing in his movies? We discussed the effectiveness of >>> proselyting through this medium, and I believed, yes he is. > >D. Michael Martindale wrote: > >>I don't think he's proselyting, any more than I'm proselyting when I'm >>offered a drink at a party and turn it down. That could lead to the >>quesion of whether I'm a Mormon, which could lead into a discussion >>about the Gospel, which could eventually lead to a baptism. But I >>wouldn't call it proselyting. I was just being a Mormon and doing what >>Mormons do. >> >>Dutcher is just a Mormon telling stories that a Mormon would tell. If >>that leads to some baptisms, great. But I don't think it qualifies as >>proselyting, any more than the mere act of living the Gospel from day to >>day is proselyting. > >Michael, >I disagree with you, I think "living the gospel day to day" is proselyting. > >What we do and say in our every day lives impacts people and >"letting our light so shine" is a way, or form, of proselyting. >There's no question in my mind. Going out on the streets >door-to-door as a missionary is not the only form of proselyting, if >that is the definition you are looking at. > >"Dutcher is telling stories that a Mormon would tell," but it is a >form of proselyting. I don't believe we can disregard Dutcher's two >films as a way of proselyting. > >Turning down a drink at a party is also a form of proselyting. It's >all part of setting a good example. It's subtle, but it is >proselyting, IMO. > What we have here is two different uses of the word "proselyte" (or "proselytize," both of which mean pretty much the same thing). The dictionary definition has to do with actively trying to convert people to one's beliefs. By that definition, turning down a drink at a party is not proselytizing -- unless you make a big show of it as a way of teaching a lesson, getting people's interest, and then sharing the first discussion with them. And also by the definition, Dutcher is not proselytizing. His films aren't made JUST for the purpose of converting people. If people come away from them with a more positive attitude toward the church, which eventually leads to being baptized, I'm sure Dutcher would be grateful and humbled and happy. But it would be a pleasant by-product of the movies, not a realization of what he set out to do in the first place. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Savage" Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 28 May 2001 10:54:05 -0700 > Perhaps the most ridiculous manifestation of this cultural bias is the > back-slapping, post-ordinance embraces I see regularly in priesthood > meetings. Personally, I feel like a baby being burped on those rare > occasions when I get a hug from a Mormon man. > > I contrast that to a friend I once was having a deep conversation with about > his father who had abandoned him as a child. He was not a member of the > Church, but was a man of faith and active in another church. As we stood > talking, he rapidly became emotional. I don't remember the comment I made, > but it evoked a torrent of tears from him as he wrapped his arms around my > chest and back and pressed his soggy face against my shoulder. There were no > slaps against each other's back, no conscious effort to make sure that all > contact points where above the waist, no side-saddled avoidance of a > full-length connection. With my penchant for empathy, I began to cry too, > and fifteen to twenty minutes later, we separated. The entire right half of > my shirt was drenched and his was similarly wetted. I agree that there are a lots of wierd cultural biases in almost any religious or cultural group. But I think what you are describing here may be a regional phenomenon as opposed to a a religious one. Other than in youth dances, I don't think I've ever been counseled either directly or indirectly about full body contact. I've received bear hugs from other LDS men before. I also think though that the difference between congratulating someone at the end of an ordinance and comforting someone who is pouring a torrent of tears is pretty wide. > In a story I've begun, put on hold, begun again, and is now currently on > hold, I've tried to challenge a number of cultural attitudes and beliefs. I > fear I am taking on too much in one story. Perhaps it is not truly artistic > to even have a motive to influence Mormon culture, yet I scoff at people who > extol the virtues of pure, unintentioned art. I don't believe there are > artists that have risen above agendas. This is the big compliant I have though. I am far more likely to scoff at someone who extols fiction as a way to push their agenda. I actually read a quote from an author who said "I don't write to entertain anyone." I think that the best writers tell the story first and that the themes or "morals" show up later. (With the exception of Aesop. But short stories are another beast.) If a writer decides that the foibles of LDS culture getting in the way of doctrine would be a great starting point for a novel, I agree completely. But if they write the book to prove their point and change people's cultural attitudes, they should write a pamphlet. -Jeff - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 28 May 2001 12:02:39 -0500 > > To me, it would depend on how I made the reader cry as to whether I > would consider it a compliment or not. It's the difference between > bathos and true emotion. For instance, everybody likes babies. Put > them on stage or in a film and you have won the audience over before a > single word is said. Have something happen bad to that baby, and you > make people cry. But are they crying because of what your writing or > because of the universal love we all have for babies? Now, introduce a > serial-killer into your book or film, and than have something bad happen > to him at the end. THEN, if your audience is crying, you've > accomplished something as a writer. If you can make people cry over a serial killer, then you certainly have accomplished something as a writer. But as a writer, I like to write things people can actually relate to. People can relate to a baby dying. Does that make it bad writing? Of course not, because infant deaths are a part of life. And there are writers out there that can make something like a baby dying, mundane and ordinary and not worth a tear. Not every book I've read has stirred emotion. These books are forgotten. The ones that are remembered are the ones that have touched me in some way, whether negatively or positively. Anna [Wight] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 28 May 2001 13:07:47 -0500 > Perhaps I presume too much to want to change our culture, but surely the > purpose of literature is not to simply capture culture. If our culture is > what it is because our doctrine is what it is, do I really think that when I > see the Savior, I'll give him a firm handshake and a heartfelt, "Thank you?" > I hope our meeting will be more like with the man who soaked my shirt, that > I'll want to linger. I doubt he'll have dirty feet, but I know I'll have > enough tears in store to wash them. > > Rex Goode > I take hugs anyway I can get them, burping or not! :-). People who know me know they are going to get a hug. Regardless of gender. Perhaps it is that I am 60+ and have decided that culture is not as important as people. We all need hugs. I can't tell you how many young men have in a moment of a hug after a serious conversation. something to the effect: " I wish my Dad would hug me like you do". My Dad hugged me. I am grateful for that. I hugged my children, particularly after discipline. My wish would be that whoever decided that hugs were "unmanly" could be hugged by us all, that they might know the power of a healthy hug! Rex, write your book, but more importantly set an example by hugging unashamedly all who influence and effect you for good and those you can have an influence upon. If enough of us do so the culture will change and the environment we live in will be so much the better for it. I send all on this list a big hug from Texas! [Even the critics!] -- Craig Huls mailto:dcraigh@onramp.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 28 May 2001 14:10:25 EDT So now here's the reason I've asked for female return missionary writers to submit samples of their writing for consideration for the upcoming GOD'S ARMY novel from Sister Fronk's p.o.v. : Although I do believe in the remote possiblility that a non-missionary, non-Mormon, black Norwegian male midget in his seventies could write a great version of this story... In the interest of time, I think my best chance is to give the female return missionaries the first shot. I have the strange suspicion that one of them may know the heart of this character better than the rest of us will. But if you happen to be that Norwegian midget, knock yourself out. We'll read any sample. Seriously. Richard Dutcher - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Mormon Juvenile Literature Date: 30 May 2001 04:16:32 +0900 Question for the group: What are your favorite pieces of Mormon juvenile (or young adult) and children's literature? Please tell us what impressed you about your choices. By Mormon literature, I mean works either written by Mormons (of any kind), or works about Mormons (by anyone). Sorry I haven't done a poll in a few months. I was interested in the strong reaction to AML's failure to award prizes in children's and juvinile fiction over the last two years. And I was fascinated by John Bennion's essay in the Summer 2000 Irreantum ("All Is Well in Zion"?--Publishing among the Gentiles"), in which he lists writing for children and young adults as one of the most promising areas in Mormon literature outside Utah. In the essay he goes through works by six excellent Mromn authors, three of whom write works for younger people. I think it is one of the best essays on Mormon literature I have ever read, and reccomend it to anyone who skipped it to get to the stories. It is apparent that some of the most exciting things going on in Mormon literature are in the juvenile area, but since many of us don't think of reading those books much anymore, we are not aware of them. Those that are aware, please clue us in. (Sorry if my terminology is off, is "juvenile literature" an acceptable catch-all phrase?) So, tell us what you think. What would you reccomend for my kids? Oh, also be sure to tell us roughly what age group the books are directed towards. I am interested in everything from picture books for small children up. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 28 May 2001 14:15:55 -0600 Travis Manning wrote: > Thom Duncan wrote: > > >As I've said before on this list, sometimes we are own worst enemies > >when it comes to being understood by the world. On the one hand, we > >wonder why the world sees us as weird, and on the other hand, we want to > >hide those aspects of our religion that have universal appeal from the > >world. Showing a sacrament meeting on film sends one clear message to > >the world--that we aren't all that different from them, despite what > >they may have read in the history books. They're likely to think: "I > >still don't get all that temple stuff the Mormons do, but their Sunday > >services look a lot like mine." > > > >Showing missionaries relaxing may not make a convert on the spot to a > >viewer of _God's Army_, but the next time that person sees the > >missionaries riding down the street, that person is less inclined to > >think of those young men as brain-washed automatons. > > Thom-- > > Would you consider Dutcher's movie-making efforts as a form of proselyting? Probably, though I don't think that is his primary purpose, from my conversations with him and from what I've read and heard in articles and lectures. He seems to want to tell good stories within the context of Mormonism. God's Army isn't so much about Mormon missionaries as it is about men and women sacrificing for an ideal greater-than-self. Brigham City is so much about how Mormons react to a serial murder in their town as much as it is about how un-Paradise-like our whole world is becoming -- how Paradise, if we ever had it, is slowly slipping away. At the same time the movie shows us that Paradise is only a whisper away from our lives and exists in our sense of family, church, and community. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paynecabin@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] New Yorker Mormon Cartoon Date: 28 May 2001 21:03:19 EDT The picture better be pretty funny. Marvin Payne - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Willson" Subject: [AML] Submission Advice Requested Date: 28 May 2001 14:30:10 -0600 I have just about finished my first effort at writing a book. I have two others under construction, but who knows how long that will take. This first non-fiction effort is by no means a work directed exclusively toward Mormons, however I am a member of the church so I guess it can be considered in this venue. I sent out a lot of e-mail and snail mail queries to agents. I have recieved several "not interested" replies, and one that said, "Please send the completed synopsis, the genere and the first three sample chapters of your manuscript." My question is, when I send the requested material to this agent, what is my ethical obligation as far as, replying to other similar requests? Just in case I should get any further similar requests 8-). Do I have to wait until I receive a reply from the first agent before submitting to the next interested agent? Do I have to let the agents know I will make simultaneous submissions? This is a very scary part of the process. I will appreciate any words of advice any of you could give to me. By the way, the reason I have only been lurking on the list instead of contributing, is because I have been working on my B.S at USU. I will finish in December of this year. Miraculously I have been able to keep my GPA above 3.5. Thank you, and I will look forward to hearing from all you good members of the list. Regards, Bill Willson Keep your hand moving and your muse alive bwillson01@msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merlyn J Clarke Subject: [AML] Tessa Santiago Contact Information Date: 29 May 2001 00:18:47 -0400 > Sent along as a personal favor, if appropriate... Merlyn Clarke >Subject: [dw] address request >Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:20:14 -0700 > > > >One of you AML types have Tessa Meyer Santiago's current e-mail >address? I looked her up in the BYU directory, but a message sent to >the address listed therein bounced. > >JaneAnne - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] HOLZAPFEL (et al.), _On This Day in the Church_ (Review) Date: 27 May 2001 14:48:14 -0500 On This Day in the Church: An Illustrated Almanac of the Latter-day Saints by Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, Alexander L. Baugh, Robert C. Freeman and Andrew H. Hedges 2000, Eagle Gate (a Deseret Book imprint) Hardcover, 282 pages, $32.95 Reviewed by Larry Jackson If you enjoy curling up by the fire to read the latest Church almanac, this book is for you! The four authors, an associate and three assistant professors of Church history and doctrine at BYU, present events in Church history from each day of the year (including leap day, February 29th). Pages of this hardcover book are 8-1/2 x 11" in landscape orientation (more wide than tall). Information is laid out in a very nice two-column format. Events appear one day per column, two days per page, except for those busy days such as April 6th, July 24th, and days around conferences in early April and October, where two columns becomes the norm. Anywhere from six to ten items are included on most days, with a dozen or more on key dates in Church history. Some days include only four or five items. I only found one date with three notes (and a photograph). Nearly every page has one or two photos relating to historical events of the day. Although they are black and white, they provide an interesting and significant enhancement to the book. While this really is not a book one "reads", the photos and illustrations were interesting enough to cause me to leaf through the entire book on first sitting. They are enjoyable and of very good quality. They contribute in their own way. Most are unusual, not being the picture that would first come to mind when a particular subject is mentioned. There are seven pages of photo and illustration credits. A major portion come from the LDS Church Archives, a few from the authors themselves. They include Sister Charone Smith (one of the first humanitarian missionaries in Albania) with Mother Teresa, a young Elder Gordon B. Hinckley on his way to Asia in 1960, BYU president Rex E. Lee with U.S. president George Bush in Provo, 1992, and U.S. president Theodore Roosevelt during a visit to Salt Lake City in 1903. (Should president have been capitalized?) The book has a thorough index, and if what you are looking for is in the book, you will find it. Of course, if you already know what day in Church history something happened, you could turn directly to that page. You would be surprised at what you found, though. As expected, major historical events in Church history are included, along with birthdates and ordination dates of Church leaders (not including Area Authorities--too many of them). But, there is much besides information on general authorities. Philo T. Farnsworth, Jon Huntsman (Jr. and Sr.), Alexander Doniphan, John Whitaker, Crawford Gates, Ariel Bybee, Kurt Bestor, Sam Cardon, Anne Perry, Orson Scott Card, and other people rate mentions in the book. Unusual "things" include the SS Arizona, SS Joseph Smith, and the Mormon Meteor III, each with photo. Also noted are events such as the creation of the first stake in a country or state, the opening of missions, and the groundbreaking and dedication of many temples. Historians who already quibble over dates and events will have the same quibbles. The information for this book came from recognized and established histories of the Church. The selected bibliography includes 41 books, but most of the information came from four primary sources, plus the _Church News_, and several editions of the _Deseret News Church Almanac_ series. This book is diverse but not comprehensive. The authors note that some significant events do not come with dates (the First Vision and the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood, for example), and that some dates come with enough significant events to fill an entire volume. Recognizing that limitation, this book is still fun. Because there are some "slow news days", many minor events in Church history have found their place. In fact, a few really obscure and interesting events in Church history are to be found in these pages. This is a magazine table kind of book, fun to browse through when guests come to visit, a conversation piece, perhaps the source of a trivia question or two, fun and entertaining, and of no significant import unless you happen to do a short historical feature on a Church radio station each broadcast day. So what happened in Church history on your anniversary, my birthday, or October 26th, to pick a few dates at random? Well, this book is a great place to start. Larry Jackson May 2001 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 28 May 2001 23:36:40 -0600 Travis Manning wrote: >Do you believe that Dutcher's depicting missionaries struggling with >their faith is "proselyting?" I hate to give a non-committal answer, but this is such a loaded question that I feel like I have to set any answer up with a little explanation. Simply put--yes...maybe...sort of...not *proselyting* per se, but something that's essentially similar...I guess. (I finally saw both _God's Army_ and _Brigham City_ this past weekend; more on that in another post.) Do I believe that Dutcher is trawling for converts with a message specifically tailored to bring people into the church? No. I think he told a story of his own experience and his own beliefs, for an audience that shared some/most of those beliefs and experiences with him. He raised some difficult questions, and didn't provide all of the answers. Do I believe that he's trying to convince people that he (and others) have found something powerful and important in the set of beliefs that Mormon missionaries try to offer? Absolutely. His missionaries are real, fallible people who are not always at their best, who are trying to do some good as best they can with what tools they have. By showing good and honest people, I suspect some will come to wonder more about those people. If that's a missionary tract, then I think it's a darned well made one. His story allows for some people to doubt and for some to believe. Reality in motion. Then again, I'm one of those who believe that every story is an attempt to convince the reader of some viewpoint or concept or fact or belief, making every story written an effort to proselyte something. So the simple answer is yes, but not necessarily the way most people think of when they say "proselyte." He tells true stories, and I believe true stories do have power to enlighten, teach, and expand the experience of people, which leads (I believe) to a better understanding of truth, and encourages the honest in heart to seek more. But all good literature does that. Scott Parkin (Has Dutcher released other films than _God's Army_ and _Brigham City,_ or are these the only two with his name as both writer and director? Has he written other scripts? Just curious.) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Is It Good? (was: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_) Date: 29 May 2001 12:39:22 -0600 Larry Jackson wrote: > > He is talking about the > new film directed by Mitch Davis, _The Other Side of Heaven_: > > "I loved this film. It touched me. It entertained me. > It took me on a journey to a place I have never been. > It enlightened me, and inspired me. It touched my > heart and made me cry. What else could you want > from a movie?" I would not necessarily consider myself a good writer (or a piece of theatre good theatre) if it touched me using symbols I'm already predisposed to. The mark of a truly great writer would be someone who made you, for instance, feel sorry for Adolph Hitler. It's so-o-o easy to make Mormon audiences and readers cry. So easy, in fact, that its mere existence (without any other qualities) can actually be considered a detriment. Now, take a movie about a guy who buys a bunch of Jews from the Germans, initially because of the cheap labor, make the main character a real womanizer, but have him eventually change, regretting at the end of the film that he could have done more to save Jewish lives -- and THEN you cry -- NOW you've got a movie. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Posting Stories Date: 29 May 2001 12:40:21 -0600 "J. Scott Bronson" wrote: > > On Thu, 24 May 2001 19:52:51 -0400 "Tom Johnson" > writes: > > > --re the guy who can't sell his novel b/c it gives us too much info > > about ourselves, would he please post it on his website or > > something so I can find out some things about myself? > > I wouldn't mind doing that -- much the same way plays have been posted in > the past for discussion -- as long as I don't lose any of my copywrights. > Anyone know what is possible? Just make sure a copyright notice is included with everything you post. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 28 May 2001 23:33:26 -0600 "Stephen Goode (by way of Jonathan Langford )" wrote: > In a story I've begun, put on hold, begun again, and is now currently on > hold, I've tried to challenge a number of cultural attitudes and beliefs. I > fear I am taking on too much in one story. You probably are, unless the attitudes and beliefs are closely related to each other. Better to focus on one or a small cluster of related ones. > Yet I scoff at people who > extol the virtues of pure, unintentioned art. I don't believe there are > artists that have risen above agendas. It's not the agenda that's the problem. It's elevating the agenda above honesty to the story. If you pressure the reader to accept your agenda, you will create resistance, except among the choir. If you tell the story, and present the agenda without pressure, as you also give opponents of the agenda their day in court, then you'll let the agenda work on the reader without pressure. The reader may decide for himself to accept your agenda, then you'll have a true convert. I think the fear that agenda-laden authors have about the latter approach is that too many readers will not accept the agenda, and in fact may side with the opponents to it. How terrible to write a book promoting an agenda and convince some readers in the opposite direction! What authors who worry about that don't seem to understand is that they will never convince everybody--that's a given--but the gentle persuasion will influence many more readers to your agenda that the blatant browbeating ever will. You come out ahead with the subtle, fair approach. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeffrey Savage" Subject: RE: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 29 May 2001 11:44:03 -0700 >Although I do believe in the remote possiblility that a non-missionary, >non-Mormon, black Norwegian male midget in his seventies could write a great >version of this story... AS a 70 year old NMNMBNMM I thought that I would never have a chance to get you to look at my work. But now, you've got me motivated! You must have been inspired. Thanks Richard that line alone made my morning! -Jeff - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Writing What You Know (was: Female Writer Wanted) Date: 29 May 2001 12:47:42 -0600 At 11:24 AM 5/25/01 -0600, you wrote: >! I think this is one of the areas that new writers often get tangled >in--having been taught to "write what you know" they assume that they can >only draw on the experience that they've already had as the bases for >their stories. I love to write historical fiction. I've never lived in a Mayfair mansion in the London of 1817, but I love writing about it. I've never sent a man off the Napoleonic Wars, but I can weep for the one I invent when he comes home scarred and hardened. I can make the points I want to make about what I consider to be true by setting my stories in a milieu that I enjoy in part because it is exotic to me. But I do tell my story first, and as I work with the plot and the characters, the themes that are central to me somehow come to the surface of the story. I prefer to illustrate them rather than to hit the reader over the head with them. The novel I am just finishing up deals with perception: one character learns that the world is not at all as she had been taught to perceive it, and another learns to judge a person by what you know of him yourself rather than by what others say about him. I could have made those points in a book set in Provo, Utah, but it wouldn't have nearly as much fun for me! barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jeff.needle@general.com Subject: [AML] Richard P. HOWARD, _Restoration Scriptures_ (Review) Date: 28 May 2001 21:33:00 -0700 Review ====== Richard P. Howard, "Restoration Scriptures -- A Study of Their Textual Development" 1969, Herald House Paperback, 278 pages, no price given Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle As most of you know, Herald House is the publishing arm of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now the Communities of Christ). This volume is just one of several interesting and helpful studies from scholars in the Reorganization. "Restoration Scriptures" offers a detailed, fascinating account of the development of the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Joseph Smith Translation. Howard documents his findings with photos of facsimiles of the original documents, and comparative, side-by-side columns showing the evolution of these Latter Day scriptures. The most interesting section to me was the chapters covering the Book of Mormon. Beginning with the "D" manuscript (that dictated directly by Joseph Smith and recorded by his scribes), he shows how the scribes then emended the text (he calls this the "E" manuscript), which was then submitted to the publisher, who made further revisions, mostly in paragraphing and punctuation. Subsequent changes are tracked with some interesting historical notes. Howard makes his views on inspiration clear at the outset. From the Foreword: Jesus Christ himself is the foundation of Christian faith. Christianity is a personal religion before it is anything else. Ancient Hebrews believed in a personal God. New Testament disciples responded to the call of a person in whom they recognized an authority exceeding that of the scribes and Pharisees and who came to be known to them as "the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16:17, I.V.). The ministry of the Holy Spirit is a personal ministry, whatever may be the other functions of divine power. In response to this fundamental personal experience in which God confronts man through the Incarnate One, Christians have gathered together the prophetic traditions, historical accounts, and ethical interpretations pertaining to the revelation of God. By common consent and the formal action of certain historical councils, these materials have been canonized as the Holy Scriptures. This is a natural and desirable process. By so doing the accumulative records continually enrich man's growing understanding of his spiritual heritage. In the Restoration we participate in this process through the doctrine of "open canon." Without assuming the infallibility either of the documents or of our judgment of them, we nevertheless exercise the best wisdom we can bring to the situation and decide whether or not a certain matter presented to the church by its president is to be regarded as divinely inspired. Formal legislative acceptance and subsequent publication incorporates the document into the scriptural literature of the church. It is important to note that we have always distinguished between the *experience* of revelation and the *recording* of the experience. The record is not the revelation! But the record does preserve the verbal interpretation of the experience, enriching the understanding of those who study the record and offering guidance to those who share in the spirit of the original experience. The founding prophet stated for himself and for us the principle that we believe in the scriptures "insofar as they are correctly translated." It is equally important to qualify this belief with the condition: "insofar as they have adequately recorded the revelatory experience and are accurately preserved." And in these words Howard lays down the rules for his study. He studies the scriptures from a critical standpoint, rather than from an awe-filled distance. He sees the evolution of the text as the result of the inevitable disconnect between the "experience" of revelation and the "recording" of that revelation. His discussion of the development of the Inspired Version was filled with new information for me. The circumstances of the revision, the focus on certain parts of the Bible and the neglect of others, are interestingly presented. Pages 70-116 deal exclusively with the IV. Once again, parallel columns are used to demonstrate the evolutionary character of Joseph's revision. Chapter 8 is titled "The Role of Committees in the Development of the Text of the 'Inspired Version'". It recounts an action affirmed at the April 1866 RLDS General Conference, where it was decided that the text of the IV needed revision. In several cases, it is shown where the committee chose a reading that was contrary to Joseph Smith's final choice before his death. "Restoration Scriptures" is not pool-side reading. It is a serious and studious study the Restoration's unique contribution to the canon of scripture. Scripture students will find it to be a valuable addition to their libraries. ... Jeff Needle/jeff.needle@general.com ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Posting Stories Date: 29 May 2001 13:04:45 -0600 On Sat, May 26, 2001 at 09:05:56AM -0600, J. Scott Bronson wrote: > On Thu, 24 May 2001 19:52:51 -0400 "Tom Johnson" > writes: > > > --re the guy who can't sell his novel b/c it gives us too much info > > about ourselves, would he please post it on his website or > > something so I can find out some things about myself? > > I wouldn't mind doing that -- much the same way plays have been posted in > the past for discussion -- as long as I don't lose any of my copywrights. > Anyone know what is possible? No matter how you release your work, you don't lose any copyrights unless you assign them to someone else. A publisher wants to be the first one to publish a work. If you make your play available to the general public, some publishers will look at that as publication and no longer want to consider your work. I think that you can safely make you novel available to a limited audience without fear of losing publishability in the future. For example, you could put the file on a web site, but not make the address publicly known. Thus, only those whom you tell about the file will know of its existence. I don't think you should post the instructions for downloading your novel here on AML-List because list messages get archived in a publicly accessible repository. But you could announce that you have made your novel available and ask interested parties to send you private email. You then respond to each party in private email with the instructions for downloading or with the novel itself. (And if you choose to make your novel available to a select few, may I be one of those few?) -- Terry Jeffress | It took me fifteen years to discover I had | no talent for writing, but I couldn't give AML Webmaster and | it up because by that time I was too AML-List Review Archivist | famous. -- Robert Benchley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 29 May 2001 14:59:46 -0600 Stephen Goode (by way of Jonathan Langford ) wrote: > As an example of old ideas that I would like to crusade against are the > ideas about physical contact between men. How we got from John resting on > Jesus' breast and Paul's holy kisses to the arms-length style of modern > Mormon men I do not know, but for selfish reasons, I would like to see the > culture change. > > Perhaps the most ridiculous manifestation of this cultural bias is the > back-slapping, post-ordinance embraces I see regularly in priesthood > meetings. Personally, I feel like a baby being burped on those rare > occasions when I get a hug from a Mormon man. I understand the phenomenon you mean. I'm not sure this is a good example of arms-lenth style, though. At least, in my case, the back-slapping part of it is an expression of male joy of the occasion. It is a joy that requires close, physical expression and I think the back-slapping hug is a good way to express that. I don't think that the added back-slap is an attempt at burping so much as it is a need for physical motion that isn't expressed adequately in a non-moving hug. I don't think that there would be that back-slapping if the post-ordinance contact was supposed to contain comfort. Hugs, like kisses or any other form of contact, fulfill a variety of emotional needs and cues. I think that if you were in a situation that required comforting contact, you might find our LDS brethren a little more up to the contact needed and you would find more rocking than back-patting. I know that I would if I were in such a situation. Not that you don't have a good point, though. There is a cultural distance between men, but I think that comes from our wider culture more than it comes from our LDS heritage. I think that overall, LDS men are more likely to be more willing to provide the physical contact in an unabashed manner than non-LDS, but I don't have any evidence than my feeling that it would be so--mostly I just know I wouldn't flinch personally, and I know others I feel wouldn't either. > I contrast that to a friend I once was having a deep conversation with about > his father who had abandoned him as a child. He was not a member of the > Church, but was a man of faith and active in another church. As we stood > talking, he rapidly became emotional. I don't remember the comment I made, > but it evoked a torrent of tears from him as he wrapped his arms around my > chest and back and pressed his soggy face against my shoulder. There were no > slaps against each other's back, no conscious effort to make sure that all > contact points where above the waist, no side-saddled avoidance of a > full-length connection. With my penchant for empathy, I began to cry too, > and fifteen to twenty minutes later, we separated. The entire right half of > my shirt was drenched and his was similarly wetted. I think that is a touching situation, but not one that we find ourselves in often, or at least not one we talk much about. Again, not because we daren't, but because it is a private moment filled with the private pain of another. I don't think that we would be ashamed, but I do think that we would be respectful of that moment and not share it where it might provide additional pain. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 29 May 2001 15:31:36 -0500 > > As you can tell, I react pretty strongly when someone tries to tell me > that as a man I cannot write a convincing birth scene, or that as a > white man I cannot write a convincing scene of oppression. I > personally may not have the skill to write a convincing scene, but I > don't think that you can exclude an entire class of the human race as > unable to share in the experience of some other class. And someone, > somewhere will write the scene you though could not be written. > > -- Interesting. And here I was getting annoyed because we belong to a church where generally we only hear men's voices. Yet when someone wants to hear a woman's voice, the men get upset saying they can do just as good or a better job. We've been focusing on the ad asking for a woman. What they were asking for was a woman writer. The writer part was as important as the woman part. Somehow the thought came that a male writer could write better than a woman about women's experiences. But could a good male writer write better about a woman's experiences than a good female writer? I guess I get annoyed by men who claim to know how women feel in situations that men couldn't possibly know. It's as if men are trying to take away those experiences, or lessen them. Standing by someone's side watching a birth, is not the same as actually going through the experience giving birth. I'm not saying men can't imagine. As writers we imagine things all the time. But in this ad, it sounded like they really wanted missionary experiences from the perspective of a female missionary. Why do some of the men on this board have a problem with this concept? Personally, I want to hear more women's voices. Anna - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 29 May 2001 15:40:54 -0500 > > If someone takes the time to write an intellectual treatise on your > work, you have moved that person -- one way or the other. You have > either inspired someone to take the time to see why your words created > such a positive effect, or you have disgusted someone so thoroughly > that she wants to analyze how your book creates the desire to fling > the work against a wall. > > The entire field of literary criticism exists to argue about what > works and does not work in fiction. In spite of what prescriptive > critics purport, without the text, the critic's job doesn't exist. So > even if you don't take intellectual musings as the highest compliment, > you should still accept the compliment. Yeah, yeah. And they hold classes about symbolism and what the author really meant when he wrote what he did. And sometimes I wonder, "how does the teacher know that's what the author meant and how do they know that's what the white daisy means. Did they ever speak to the writer?" I suspect too, that if the actual author of the book took the class in cognito, they would end up failing it because they wouldn't understand the symbolism in their own book, according to the teacher and other critics. I think we need to stop looking down our noses at people who "loved the book because it made them cry". This reason is as valid if not more so, than any other. It's honest. And it's probably what the writer was hoping to do. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Hatch Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ Date: 29 May 2001 15:12:16 -0700 James Picht wrote: > > If Weyland isn't getting better . . . critics have > an obligation to tell him so, the more so since he writes for sale, not just > to hand out his stories as gifts for friends. There are probably many people who'd love to receive Jack Weyland's stories as gifts. But that's impractical. We can't all live near him; we can't all know him personally, though we may certainly feel like his friends; we can't really expect him to give/mail us all copies of his manuscripts. We need some way for his work to be widely distributed. Aha! Publishing!! Even if Weyland would give me a copy of his manuscript, I would certainly expect to reimburse him for xerox-copying and mailing costs. After all that, I'd probably come out ahead by going to Deseret Book and buying his book! Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Samuel Brunson" Subject: [AML] Re: [AML-Mag] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 29 May 2001 17:32:31 -0600 I've been meaning to jump into several threads that have been discussed, but keep getting sidetracked. So I thought I'd jump in here--it seems to fit as well as any of the rest. At the end of the post, I'll introduce myself. I've been lurking, mostly, for a year or so. But if you don't car who I am (for which I wouldn't blame you), go ahead and read until you're bored, then delete. >Stephen Goode wrote: >In a story I've begun, put on hold, begun again, and is now currently on >hold, I've tried to challenge a number of cultural attitudes and beliefs. I >fear I am taking on too much in one story. Perhaps it is not truly artistic >to even have a motive to influence Mormon culture, yet I scoff at people >who extol the virtues of pure, unintentioned art. I don't believe there are >artists that have risen above agendas. While I think it's fine (and important) to recognize the difference between LDS doctrine and culture, using fiction to flush it out and shoot it down has potential dangers (I'd like to add, before I start, that I really think this applies to any writing that's ideologically motivated): The danger I see is two-fold: First, in denouncing a practice as LDS cultural rather than doctrinal, you are (tacitly or explicitly) suggesting that something within the Church has led to this practice, albeit wrongheadedly. Because Mr. Goode used men hugging, (>Perhaps the most ridiculous manifestation of this cultural bias is the back-slapping, post-ordinance embraces I see regularly in priesthood meetings. Personally, I feel like a baby being burped on those rare occasions when I get a hug from a Mormon man.) I'll give my reactions to the same. Because I don't see a male aversion to hugging as a particularly LDS thing. With this example, the first three things that came to my mind were _Bill and Ted_, a _Simpsons_ episode where Homer's worried that Bart's gay, so he freaks out about hugging him (I could be wrong about which Simpsons episode, but I know there's one, and, if not, it's still my second response), and a Dilbert cartoon in which Dilbert walks in on his boss telling a fishing yarn, arms outstretched, and goes up and hugs him and the man the boss is talking to. In the last panel, Dilbert thinks something about being glad the uptight 80s are over, but the boss and his friend are disheveled and shaking and completely shocked. I'm not saying that lack of male-to-male contact isn't an LDS cultural thing, but my first reactions are not remotely LDS. In my mind, it's an American thing (further emphasized by the Brazilian view of Americans as cold). In order for me to not shut off the story's message entirely, the writer would have to spend a lot of time giving me background on why this is specific to LDS culture and why we need to get rid of it. And, spending the sufficient time, I'd think said author would be forced to neglect the story and characters. The second danger is that you instantly alienate a huge audience. And I'm not talking just those who aren't members of the LDS church. I'm from California and, as anyone unfortunate enough to deal with freshman Californians at BYU knows, we don't think of ourselves as part of a Utah culture. More than that, I don't think of my cultural/aesthetic values or practices as being predominantly LDS. If you asked how I identified myself, LDS would be in the top two or three; if you asked what my culture was, I don't know that LDS would even show up. I'd say contemp lit, California, racquetball, jazz, Chargers fan, Padres fan, Lakers fan, writer, brother, son, etc., because those are the cultural influences I've embraced. I just become hugely nervous when fiction is written to prove a point or to promote an ideology. Because so often, it seems, the writer sacrifices ... something. I don't want to say character, because that's not always central. I don't want to say plot because I just finished _Underworld_, which was both plotless (please don't take me to task for that--you could probably argue it had a plot, but you'd have to tailor a definition of plot just for that book) and the most incredible novel I've ever read (I think it redefines what a novel can do and sets new standards for what a novel must do). But books that are first ideological and fictional only second seem to lack some sort of integrity. I'm willing to read something ideologically, but only if the ideology seems to have grown organically from the fiction itself. Sam Brunson About me--I've lived in San Diego County (in the same ward and school district) since I was four. I grew up reading and playing the piano and sax, and doing the occasional sport (especially racquetball) that seemed fun at the time. I spent a year at BYU studying saxophone, two years on a mission in Brazil, and three and a half years at BYU studying English. At BYU, I moved progressively from an interest in critical theory to my current preferences of writing short stories and reading contemporary American fiction (ideally from the last 20 or 30 years). Right now I think Don Delillo is the greatest American writer perhaps ever, and I also really dig Douglas Coupland, David Foster Wallace, Charles Frazier, Cormac McCarthy, and almost anybody else who seems very highbrow or very pop culture. I studied writing with Prof. Thayer, spent a year working on stories with John Bennion, and was fortunate enough to take a class from Dr. Macuck. I had the opportunity to intern in a small San Diego magazine office (San Diego Writer's Monthly) where, among other things, I went through the slush pile. I graduated from BYU in December and will start law school at Columbia in a couple months. My interest in LDS lit was huge for a little while, but almost all I can find seems to focus on Utah (Darrell Spencer and Brady Udall being the most notable exceptions), and most of it has, at the heart of the conflict, some issue with faith (Spencer and Udall, again, being the major exceptions, except maybe in speculative fiction, which I'm not a fan of). A couple weeks ago, a poster mentioned the possibility of LDS lit that has LDS characters interacting in a normal world, where the conflict isn't inherently LDS, even though the person's reactions, naturally, would follow from their culture (almost a rebuttal to all that I said above) and faith, but without making that culture or faith central to the plot. That's the direction of LDS lit I'm interested in. I've tried to write some (it's not that hard, it turns out, but then, a landscape populated principally by members of my faith would be more unnatural for me), and I'd love to see what others can do with this. _If_ they want to--I think being ideological about this is as bad as being ideological about anything else. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Wanted! Dead or Alive! (was: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_) Date: 29 May 2001 19:27:10 -0500 Jim Picht: If Weyland isn't getting better (assuming he's still alive - I was out of town for a couple of weeks, I'm not up on the history of this thread, and I don't know whether we're flogging a dead horse or a live one), critics have an obligation to tell him so, the more so since he writes for sale, not just to hand out his stories as gifts for friends. _______________ I'm pretty sure this is a live one, Jim! I would hope he got better over time. I enjoyed a story or two of his many years ago. My teenagers enjoy him now. If I were still a teenager, I would probably still enjoy his work. But, alas, I have grown old ... (and don't care for all that orange stuff on my hands anymore -- reference to snipped food item). Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Brady UDALL Date: 29 May 2001 18:38:55 -0600 I've heard he is LDS. He is giving a workshop or judging a contest for the Writer's at Work event comng up soon in SLC at Westminster College. I just started reading "Hounds. . ." Lu Ann Staheli Tom Johnson wrote: > Hi, I'm quite ignorant about Brady Udall's lds background--is he mormon? = > I just finished his latest, and had read hounds last year and fell in = > love with buckeye the elder and beautiful places. Has the discussion of = > edgar mint already occupied a stream of posts on this list, or not? Can = > anyone refer me to some links with udall interviews and other = > information (besides the www.edgarmint.com page)? Thanks > > Tom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Book of Mormon Manuscripts Published for the First Time: Mormon Village Date: 29 May 2001 19:10:15 -0500 Mormon Village 9May01 A3 [From Mormon-News] Book of Mormon Manuscripts Published for the First Time PROVO, UTAH -- "Publishing the original and printer's manuscripts is arguably the most important work FARMS has ever been involved in it's a harbinger of landmark research to come in the Book of Mormon analytic text series," says Daniel Peterson, FARMS Chairman of the Board. These volumes help interested readers discover the original phrasing of the Book of Mormon (including Hebrew-like expressions), provide remarkable insight into the process by which Joseph Smith translated, and show how editors and printers have modified the wording to make it conform to the expectations of contemporary English readers. The original manuscript is the text written down by scribes as Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. Most of this manuscript was destroyed by mold and water seepage. Only 28 percent of the original is extant. The printer's manuscript is the handwritten copy made to take to the printer for typesetting. It is virtually 100 percent extant. The volumes feature the following: * Typographic facsimiles of each manuscript (an exact reproduction of the text in typescript) * A fragment showing what is considered the oldest existing sample of Joseph Smith's handwriting * Color and ultraviolet photographs of select parts of the manuscripts * A history and physical description of the manuscripts Source: Book of Mormon Manuscripts Published for the First Time Mormon Village 9May01 A3 http://www.mormonvillage.com/viewer.asp?id=1440&type=article By Cami Hurst >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Hale Theater Date: 28 May 2001 23:25:06 -0600 >Nan McCulloch wrote: >> >> It is interesting to me, an actor >> in the play, to greet an appreciative sold out house every night since we >> opened--and hear the comments from hundreds of people telling me how much >> they enjoyed the play and how funny they thought it was. These theater >> goers seem to be reasonably intelligent somewhat sophisticated folks. > Thom Duncan: >The majority of theatre-goers of the Hale Center Theatre never darken >the door of other theatres. They are not theatre-goers per se, but are >Hale Center Theatre goers. Their plays appeal to a certain kind of >person and as long as they continue in that vein, they'll have >audiences. They don't love theatre as much as they love laughing and >being heart-warmed. Nothing wrong with that, in my estimation, by the >way. I agree whole-heartedly with this, though I would amend it to allow that many Hale Center patrons also attend the SCERA in Orem. (I know, because I recognize a lot of the same people at both theaters.) Hale and SCERA are very nearly the same in terms of content, though the SCERA tends to do more musicals and Hale does more straight comedies. It has struck me often that while Utahns claim to be great lovers of theater, this really only goes so far. We talk about how many theaters we have -- far more than we should, given our population size -- and how we love to be patrons of the arts. But when you get right down to it, what do people actually go see? Shows they've seen before ("Joseph," "Forever Plaid," "Fiddler on the Roof"), shows their friends and relatives are in, and shows at one particular theater they always go to no matter what. Put on an unfamiliar show or a drama or one that challenges people's sensibilities, and suddenly people aren't quite the theater-lovers they used to be. This is fine, I guess. Like Thom said, people can be a patron of just one theater (or one type of show) and that's OK. I'm just bemused -- yes, bemused, not angry -- at how we extol our cultural virtues in speech, but act much differently in practice. Going back to what Nan said, I don't doubt that Hale patrons are intelligent enough (as much as the general populace, I suppose). But sophisticated theater-goers, they are not. Assuming Hale is their primary source of theater -- and I honestly believe that to be the case with most of them -- that means they might go to a show every six weeks. This makes them very knowledgeable of Hale theater, but not very wise at all about theater in general. One hates to sound like a snob, but much of what the Hale Center does is stuff that, frankly, would be the most entertaining to someone who doesn't see a whole lot of theater. People who go a lot, to a variety of venues, have seen those jokes before, seen better acting before, and heard better dialogue before. I have to be careful here, because my extreme dislike for the current production might make it sound like I'm saying, "If you like this show, it's because you don't get out much." And that sort of is what I'm saying, but in a much nicer way. Facts are facts: If you don't see much theater, you're going to be a lot easier to please. And easy-to-please is a perfectly OK thing for someone to be. But one shouldn't declare the easy-to-please people's favorites as being great theater, because that's setting the bar too low. How can you say a Hyundai is best when you've never even driven a Rolls-Royce? Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Submission Advice Requested Date: 30 May 2001 09:50:29 -0700 First of all, your initial query letter should have stated that it was a = simultaneous submission, right? If you do that, unless the agent ASKS for = an exclusive look and you agree to it, you are free to mail out the = material to whoever asks for it, whenever they ask. But in any subsequent = correspondence you should always remind them it is a simultaneous = submission. As long as you inform them, you're acting ethically and don't = need to worry about overlapping submissions. (As I've described before, I had the difficult situation of having about = 20 agents all say yes at the same time to my promiscuously circulated = query about my missionary memoir, about half a dozen of them quite = aggressively e-mailing and phoning multiple times and asking for exclusives= . I find that if I am up front with them, they are generally gracious and = cooperative, although they will keep campaigning for exclusives if they = think your project sounds hot and you have to start ranking them. I = limited the exclusives to two weeks and had several agents willing to wait = in line. But my manuscript, essentially an edited/rewritten transcript of = my missionary letters and journals, flopped, so I pulled it out of = circulation and am trying to start over with a narrative more in the style = of _Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil_. Most of the agents said = they'd take a look at that when I'm done, hopefully by the end of this = year. The power of an effective query letter is astonishing.) Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 30 May 2001 13:45:03 -0500 Travis Manning asked: > Would you consider Dutcher's movie-making efforts as a form of proselyting? I think to see Dutcher's movies as a form of proselyting is to see all film as propoganda. A film with happy, devout Catholics proselytizes for the Catholic church, a show about corrupt preachers may be anti-religious proselyting, a show with happy gay men proselytizes the gay life-style while a show with miserable gay men proselytizes against it, _The West Wing_ is pro-Democrat anti-Republican propoganda, _The Practice_ would have us believe that there's something noble about the practice of law while_LA Law_ suggests that it's glamorous, and _Leave it to Beaver_ is propoganda for patriarchal, nuclear families and an affront to single parents everywhere. Perhaps I exagerate, but I don't think that art and literature that anyone cares about comes without a point of view. Whether intended or not, there's always a statement to the effect, "this is the way the word is," or "this is the way the world ought to be," or "this is the way it ought not to be." From that perspective, it seems to me trivial to claim that Dutcher proselytizes with his films. You might as well note that the cameras he shoots them with have lenses and that his actors were all born on Earth. The observation itself is uninformative and uninteresting. The hows and whys of a films proselytizing, on the other hand, seem to me very interesting questions, just as from a more technical perspective might be a discussion of how the camera was used. I think we can take the _existence_ of the camera as given. Jim Picht - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 30 May 2001 14:08:25 -0500 I'd like to ammend my last post to note that, so far as there are Mormons in Dutcher's movie, one would expect it to take either a positive or negative view of them (if the Mormonism is completely neutral, then it's probably irrelevant, and one would wonder what it's doing in the movie at all). Of course, he could have set the movie in a town of Baptists or Unitarians or Moonies, but then he'd have had to change the flavor and behavior of his characters (the dynamic between members and minister in a Unitarian congregation just isn't the same as that in an LDS ward, and a town full of Unitarians certainly wouldn't see the world the same way as a town full of Mormons). I'd think that rather than ask whether the film proselytizes for Mormonism, then, it would be more to the point to ask why Mormons are central at all. But one could ask the same of any film that features any religion, any political party, any gender preference. ("Hey, they're using a regular pair of heterosexual parents in _Seventh Heaven_. Are they proselytizing? Why not make it a black family of Wiccans headed by two committed lesbians, one a Wiccan priestess?") Why Mormons and not Baptists? I dunno. Why Baptists? Aren't Mormons part of American diversity? Something about this whole question just annoys me. It's not that we're interested in the proselytizing element of the film here, but that we ask the question about a film featuring Mormons as if it has particular relevance, as if a film about Mormons by a Mormon will be particularly sneaky in the propoganda department. If that's true (and we are a proselytizing church, so it may be), then Mormon film (and literature) always has to be suspect as something other than art. That seems to me an awfully heavy burden of assumption to place on LDS artists. Jim Picht - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: [AML] FCMA Pearl Awards Date: 31 May 2001 03:59:39 +0800 Hi listers, The FCMA (Faith-Centered Music Association) has announced its list of finalists for the 2001 Pearl Awards, to be held July 13th at the Cottonwood Auditorium in Salt Lake City. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/music/010525pearl.html Steve ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Steven Kapp Perry, songwriter and playwright http://www.stevenkappperry.com http://www.playwrightscircle.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Mormon Juvenile Literature (Comp.) Date: 30 May 2001 17:58:58 -0500 [MOD: This is a compilation post of several responses to save List slots.] >>> andrewrhall@hotmail.com 05/29/01 01:16PM >>> > >So, tell us what you think. What would you reccomend for my kids? >Oh, also be sure to tell us roughly what age group the books are = directed=20 >towards. I am interested in everything from picture books for small=20 >children up. _A World of Faith_ by Peggy Fletcher Stack and Kathleen Peterson (illustrat= or), Signature Books. The book gives a brief introduction to the origins, = beliefs, and practices of a couple dozen of the world's religions (just a = couple pages on each), including, of course, LDS. The artwork is gorgeous = and richly symbolic. The author and illustrator spoke at the Great Salt Lake Book Festival a = couple years ago. Peggy Stack said that she met with leaders of the Muslim = community in Salt Lake to review what she had written about Islam. They = told her that she captured the essence of the religion so well that surely = Allah must be leading her to become a Muslim. MBA Andrew Hall wrote: > Question for the group: > What are your favorite pieces of Mormon juvenile (or young adult) and > children's literature? Please tell us what impressed you about your > choices. By Mormon literature, I mean works either written by Mormons (of > any kind), or works about Mormons (by anyone). Aargh! I can't believe you did this to me. I've been *such* an exemplary lurker of late, outdone only by Eric Samuelsen (Eric? Hello? Eric? We miss you.). Unfortunately, I can't pass this one by. I don't have much time though, so this is going to be quick and purely off the top of my head. Picture Books: Rick Walton is our LDS picture book writer extraordinaire. He has published extensively on the national market (Pig, Pigger, Piggest, Once There Was a Bull. . . Frog, How Many Bunnies, etc.). He's also done a couple of things with Deseret Book. The Beuhners (Carolyn and her husband, what's-his-name) have also published (very successfully) on the national market. Their book, _Fanny's Dream_ is one of my all-time favorite picture books. The LDS publishers haven't really done much in this genre yet. I know that Covenant is actively pursuing picture book manuscripts right now, but their focus will be exclusively LDS-oriented stuff. The two most successful (in terms of sales) LDS picture books currently on the market are _The Walnut Tree_ (the story of the walnut tree planted by President Hinkley and how it became the pulpit in the new Conference center) and _The First Vision_. MiddleGrade (ages 8-12): We have a number of very fine LDS writers publishing middle grade fiction in the national arena. Carol Lynch Williams and Laurel Brady immediately come to mind. Carol's best book to date is probably _The True Colors of Catilynn Jackson_. Dean Hughes has also published numerous middle grade books, many of them with a sports theme. _Family Pose_ is one of his best. My favorite middle grade/YA book published by an LDS publisher is, of course, _Circle Dance_ by yours truly. _The Kaleidoscope Season_ by Sharon Jarvis (?) is quite good, although it is almost ruined by the overtly didactic ending. I have not read any of Chris Heimerdinger's Tennis Shoes books, but I know they are very popular. My 11-year-old son recently discovered them and read all seven (?) books in the series in a two week period. YA: Louise Plummer is probably our best writer of young adult fiction. Her recently released book, _A Dance for Three_ (HarperCollins?) is outstanding and is receiving a great deal of critical attention. It is an amazing book--bold, funny, heartbreaking, and real. A.E. Cannon is another excellent YA writer. _Amazing Gracie_ won a number of awards (ALA Best Book, etc.). She just had a new book come out, but I can't remember the title. In terms of YA books published by LDS publishers, _Summer Fire_ by Doug Thayer is still one of the best. Both _Circle Dance_ and _The Kaleidoscope Season_ probably straddle the line between YA and middle-grade. That's it for now. I'm sure I've forgotten some important titles, so I'll probably be sending an addendum in the next couple of days. Cheers and shrieks! Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com >From REWIGHT@telusplanet.net Tue May 29 16:00:17 2001 > > So, tell us what you think. What would you reccomend for my kids? > Oh, also be sure to tell us roughly what age group the books are directed > towards. I am interested in everything from picture books for small > children up > Andrew Hall > Pittsburgh, PA > I know members of this list will probably scoff at my choice. But I love the Tennis Shoes Books. It's like watching a Mormon Indiana Jones movie. Sometimes when I read, I want to go on a great adventure. And I always feel that when I read one. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 30 May 2001 01:42:33 -0600 LuAnnStaheli wrote: > > Is anyone taking into account the fact that Weyland himself admits in today's > market he wouldn't get a book accepted or published if he hadn't already > established a track record? The first of the 22 immutable laws of marketing (there was such a book by that title) is, it's better to be first than to be best. That's why Jack Weyland is popular. He was one of the first, if not the first, popularist LDS authors, back when the competition was approximately nil. He is now surviving on his laurels because he followed the first law: he was first with his product. > I've heard him speak at a couple of writer's > conferences and he always credits his editor for patience as he writes, then > rewrites, then rewrites again and again to the suggestions she gives him. I am familiar with Weyland's attitude toward his own writing. I respect him for recognizing his own limitations. Which just makes me wonder all the more, why doesn't he seem to want to learn better skills? I know, I know, because people buy his books as is, so why bother? =Ahem= I think the question is its own answer. > Each of us is entitled to > his/her own personal taste in reading, and no one has the right to tell anyone > their taste is wrong. Once again, yes, we all agree everyone is entitled to his/her own taste in reading. Who is arguing with you on that? But the critic has every right to say an author's writing is not good. That's what the critic is for. The critic has no reason to exist if he can't point out poor writing, no matter how popular the writing is. And I still say Weyland would only improve his audience if he understood how to handle POV and backstory. Yes, previous generations accepted different standards on these things, and the rules we use today are recent cultural developments that only modern audiences care about. But isn't that who Weyland is writing to? So why would following the rules today's reading audiences expect drive Weyland's audience away? I'm still baffled. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 30 May 2001 11:01:41 -0400 scene request: I didn't think God's Army was quite daring enough. If it'd been my mission, the healing episode would have ended in a morgue. Anyway, my wife and I were talking, and we think it wouldn't be too risque--okay, it might be, but not lewd--if you slipped in a subtle, not even a scene, but a suggestion of a scene, a hint of something "extra" between the two sisters as they dress or undress in the morning or night--a little longer stare, an extra pause of the hand that helps button a dress, a full-body hug that lasts an instant too long. That would set sirens roaring! Tom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: [AML] Missionary Stories (was: Female Writer Wanted) Date: 30 May 2001 11:10:51 -0400 >Of course we need a real perspective from a woman's > side. I've read and heard more stories about male missionaries than I > really care to have read, and I'm kinda tired of them. There hasn't > really been anything new in them in the last fifty years. Yet another > expose of how silly Elder missionaries are fills me with a colossal > sense of "so what?" > Scott, I actually haven't read any missionary stories at all, though I recently ordered some (the danube one and the benson duo); didn't pelasco or petasco or something already write some female missionary stories? i'm curious to know which missionary stories you've read and which is the best, since you've read so many. which is the literary masterpiece of missionary narrators. I'm surprised that you would think the missionary novel is a sort of closed genre, defunct of interest, considering the yearly crusades of reinforcements. but then again my lack of reading doesn't inform me to give a tenable opinion. Tom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 30 May 2001 13:16:12 -0700 This response addresses several points made. To Jeff's point about a possible regional influence: I moved from Oregon to Ohio and then back again, and only among Mormon men do I get the heck beat out of me when one hugs me. It's also not simply a matter of the context. I've given or received blessings that brought tears to both recipient and blesser, very emotional stuff, but the hugs still involve getting beat on. If there are Mormon men who don't hug like this under any circumstance, I'd like to meet them. I'm sure they exist. One I knew was a recent convert. I imagine by now he's getting with the program. I can hear the slaps now. To Jeff's point: >If a writer decides that the foibles of LDS culture getting in the >way of doctrine would be a great starting point for a novel, I agree >completely. But if they write the book to prove their point and change >people's cultural attitudes, they should write a pamphlet. Jeff, I don't believe and never have believed that any writer of any kind writes purely for the art. I've never read anything not biased by its author. The story may not draw any conclusions, but the questions the author asks are the questions the author finds important. It reminds me of a very old Dennis the Menace episode. Mr. Wilson was competing to be allowed into a bird-calling club and practicing. A beatnik heard him practicing and practically worshipped him for having made music that completely obliterates all melody and rhythm. Writers who claim to not be pushing an agenda of some kind remind me of that beatnik, looking for pure literature, unfettered by anything but the drive to tell the story, the whole story, and nothing but the story. To Jacob's point about a cultural distance in general among men: I agree, Jacob. I do seem to be singling out Mormon men, but that's only because of the almost ritualistic obligatory flapping that goes along with hugging. At a recent seminar I attended on the importance of touch, given by a well-known author, he described three embraces that are common among people who are afraid of what same-gender affection might mean. They were: 1. The A-frame hug. This is where you lean forward and make certain that nothing below the general area of the diaphragm touches. It's quite comical. 2. The side-saddle hug. This is where the two people approach each other almost from the side, again in an effort to minimize the contact points. 3. The duck hug. This is in reference to the quacking sound the hands make when they slap the other guy's back. I think that modern American men in general are too phobic about contact, not just Mormon men. We just someone chose the duck hug over the A-frame and side-saddle. There are probably lots of places around the world where this is irrelevant, because affection among men isn't suspect. I fear that modern American is all too dirty-minded. "To the impure, all things are impure." It is reflected in our cultural artistic expressions. What I hope will not happen is that the more dirty-minded American becomes, the more standoffish Mormon men will become, and the more bland our literature. By the way, at that seminar, I was paired with an older gentleman to be shown how a real hug should be. There was a long embrace, no A-frames, side-saddles, or duck whacks. It was to last a couple of minutes. Not long into it, he began to shake and cry. When it was over, we were supposed to tell each other what he felt. He cried, "I only wish I had held my son that way." I wanted to ask him more but never got the chance. To Sam's point, which had similarities to Jacob's: Sam, I agree that it is more of an American thing. I also agree that a story intended to separate out a cultural quirk from a doctrinal requirement would not be a good story. However, I would not find a story believable that had a scene of two Mormon men embracing after one ordained the other to the priesthood if they didn't slap each other's backs during the embrace. It would be a detail that I would consider missed. The hugging example was only a small example of a greater question. Are we recorders of culture or shapers of culture? If only recorders, then for realism's sake, have Mormon male characters who embrace also slap each other's backs. If shapers, then can you write convincingly about a more meaningful physical contact between two Mormon men so that others can feel it and not feel bad about it? In a writing group, I shared a snippet from a story about two Mormon men who were acquainted with each other finding each other in a mutually embarassing situation, a situation that most Mormon men would think would be improbable. In fact, one comment from a man who read it said it was too far-fetched. Oddly, it was a composite account that I took from similar true-life incidents involving several men I know, and it was not in the least far-fetched. The reviewer also commented on how the piece contained powerful emotion, but he didn't think it likely. It might have been likely if the characters had been less active instead of a gospel doctrine teacher and a ward mission leader. It's only unlikely in the world we choose to see, a world where good men only do good and bad men only do evil. That is also Mormon-cultural. To Michael's statement: "It's not the agenda that's the problem. It's elevating the agenda above honesty to the story." See all of the above. Also, what about dishonesty to the story? Would I avoid a scene like the one described above merely because the average Mormon reader would find it too incredible? Should I second-guess my motives for including it? I may want Mormon readers to know that certain things do happen. Now if I throw it in the story in a gratuitous fashion, without it having any real connection to the rest of the story, it would certainly detract from the quality. I can agree with that. If a story is written in the first person, it is going to have a detectable point of view. Even if it's written in the third person, a point of view will be evident. Running around trying to make sure every point of view on a them is represented by some character seems like a ridiculous way to compose a story. I do write what I know, and the fact is, I know a different side of Mormon life than a lot of Mormon men will even admit exists. I also know the other side, having lived in both. I prefer the side that most men hopefully prefer, but also know that the other is inhabited by good men too. My agenda isn't to recruit people to either side. It's to give a tour of both through the eyes of people who have lived in both. I think that is an agenda. Some people think it's just storytelling. I'm only saying that I don't believe in pure storytelling any more than I believe in agenda-free writers. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 30 May 2001 14:33:51 -0600 On Tue, May 29, 2001 at 03:31:36PM -0500, REWIGHT wrote: > Interesting. And here I was getting annoyed because we belong to a > church where generally we only hear men's voices. Yet when someone > wants to hear a woman's voice, the men get upset saying they can do > just as good or a better job. Lets not conflate the desire we express for a well rounded literary canon with a desire for politically (and legally) correct hiring practices. IANAL, but I believe that you cannot state a particular sex as a requirement for employment. In reality, you can give preference to one sex over the other when filling a position; you just can't make that preference publicly known. > We've been focusing on the ad asking for a woman. What they were > asking for was a woman writer. The writer part was as important as > the woman part. Somehow the thought came that a male writer could > write better than a woman about women's experiences. But could a > good male writer write better about a woman's experiences than a > good female writer? The "woman part" is probably the illegal part. Also, no one made the explicit claim that a male writer would write better than a woman. The general implication expressed the idea that one should look for good and accomplished writers over writers of a particular sex. > I guess I get annoyed by men who claim to know how women feel in > situations that men couldn't possibly know. It's as if men are > trying to take away those experiences, or lessen them. Standing by > someone's side watching a birth, is not the same as actually going > through the experience giving birth. As I stated in a previous post, I believe that the range of human emotions is fundamentally static. Pain is pain, joy is joy, grief is grief. I believe that empathy works because human beings all share the same emotional palette. We would not deny that God (or Christ) could understand the emotions of childbirth. We are all created in the image of God, so I conclude that we have his same ability to understand all human emotion, even when a person of the opposite sex experiences that emotion. In fact, I believe that God grants empathy as a gift of the spirit and to deny that empathy denies a gift from God. (Terry's personal doctrine, 35:2.) I think your post demonstrates one of the logical flaws of feminism. At first you start out wanting women to have a more accepted place in the mainstream. You want to have more balance between men and women's voices. You want women to have the same status and acceptance as men. Then you re-establish the class barrier between men and women by telling men that they cannot possibly share in a woman's emotional experience. If men cannot truly understand women, then why do we bother to get together for Sacrament meeting to hear from the members of the congregation. We could just as easily stay in our segregated Priesthood and Relief Society meetings. Also, your statement implies a failing in women writers: that no woman writer could ever describe the birthing experience in a way that a man could understand. Do you really believe that childbirth provides such a unique experience that no one, man or woman, can adequately express that experience in words. I don't believe that. I don't know why God gave men the Priesthood and women childbearing, except that some eternal precedent requires such roles. But I do not believe that these roles provide some sort of mutually exclusive sets of emotions that create a barrier between the sexes. I believe that in addition to our divinely appointed roles, we also have the divine gift of empathy (or charity if you will) that enables us to feel the same emotions as another of our brothers or sisters. Some people also have an additional gift to express those emotions using nothing more than the written word. -- Terry Jeffress | No book is really worth reading at the age | of ten which is not equally (and often far AML Webmaster and | more) worth reading at the age of fifty AML-List Review Archivist | and beyond. -- C. S. Lewis - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 30 May 2001 15:15:42 -0600 On Tue, May 29, 2001 at 03:40:54PM -0500, REWIGHT wrote: > I think we need to stop looking down our noses at people who "loved > the book because it made them cry". This reason is as valid if not > more so, than any other. It's honest. And it's probably what the > writer was hoping to do. Ok, I admit, I'm having an emotional response to your posts Anna, but since I still hang on to some tenets of reader response criticism, please let my try to explain my emotion: frustration. My response in no way invalidated emotion as an acceptable response to a book. In fact, you were the one who wrote a post that looked down its nose at the intellectual treatise. This frustrated me, because I believe that an intellectual treatise provides just as valid a response to a work as the reader who sheds tears while turning the last page. A reader cannot give a work an inappropriate response. The author might have intended one response over another, but we cannot fault the reader for the response. Literary criticism tries to catalog and explain the responses we as humans have to literature. In science we pose a hypothesis, conduct an experiment, and form a conclusion. Scientists will respect that procedure if the experiment produces reproduceable results. Literary criticism tries to describe the methods of reproduceable results in literature. Some results come easily. Put a child in mortal danger, or kill a child in your fiction and you will probably evoke similar responses in your readers: outrage at the killer, a desire to protect the innocent child. Some results come with greater effort. Can you evoke an emotional response with your sympathetic description of an unsympathetic character? Thom expressed an opinion that he places a higher value on the emotion bought a greater expense. But that's just one reader's response, and does not invalidate the response of anyone who does cry at the first story. I'm not trying to invalidate your emotional response to a book. I just wanted to point out that contrary to your statement, I would feel complimented that someone wanted to put in the effort to read and reread my work for an intellectual treatise. -- Terry Jeffress | Wherever they burn books they will also, | in the end, burn human beings. AML Webmaster and | -- Heinrich Heine AML-List Review Archivist | - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] Hale Theater Date: 30 May 2001 20:56:35 -0600 Eric Snider: > It has struck me often that while Utahns claim to be great lovers of > theater, this really only goes so far. We talk about how many > theaters we have -- far more than we should, given our population > size -- and how we love to be patrons of the arts. But when you get > right down to it, what do people actually go see? Shows they've seen > before ("Joseph," "Forever Plaid," "Fiddler on the Roof"), shows > their friends and relatives are in, and shows at one particular > theater they always go to no matter what. Put on an unfamiliar show > or a drama or one that challenges people's sensibilities, and > suddenly people aren't quite the theater-lovers they used to be. There's a sad but simple calculus that goes on among those of us who plan our community-based theatres' seasons: because we all rely heavily on ticket sales we have to have so many "big" shows in the line-up in order to keep the lights turned on so that we can do the stuff that turns us on. We've got to do "Fiddler" and "Sound of Music" and "Joseph" so that we can afford to do "Diary Of Anne Frank" or "Death Of A Salesman" -- not to mention "Three Women" or "Stones". So on balance it's a good thing that there's an abundant population of enthusiastic amateurs for whom the big musicals *are* theatre, who will turn out in droves for those auditions, fill those choruses, snap up those t-shirts, and pre-sell those seats to those friends and relatives. Please don't get me wrong: I love musicals with a passion, besides being glad we have them as bread and butter to finance the more serious works for which we diligently strive to develop our audiences' appreciation. At the Villa and Little Brown, for instance, we're mulling over our 2002 line-up and have the necessary workhorses in the lineup to pay the bills. But we're also experimenting with shorter runs at the Little Brown to give us more slots for original local works, outside productions, and a leavening of true classics. We know from experience that this is very risky -- we just don't sell as many seats for the dramas that challenge as we do for the musicals and comedies that amuse, and the overhead must still be paid -- but we believe that there's an audience out there that will support the kinds of serious endeavors we're planning, especially as we continue to raise our production values. This list is heavy on authors, as is only right given its emphasis, so I'm often challenged by the stream of book titles that goes by that I really ought to read [I haven't even read _Wine Dark Sea of Grass_. *YET* -- I can say that out loud because Marilyn is in Boston... ;-)] But you folks challenge me and broaden my literary horizons. I hope the playwrights, directors, and performers here provide you all the same kind of challenge, to carve time out of your otherwise art-laden lives to support quality film and live theatre. [Scott Tarbet] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: [AML] A Curious Project Date: 31 May 2001 05:57:09 -0700 (PDT) I'm working on a comic piece tracing the origins of the Mormon scripture tote bag back through time through the Freemasons, Knights Templar, Cathars, Bogomils, Paulicans, Manichees, Gnostics, Christians and Jews, ultimately back to the Jewish phylactery (you know the straps with little pockets containing passages from the law of Moses tied to the forehead and arm?). It's an expansion of a bit piece in an earlier essay of mine. I can't decide if it's a satire of a FARMS paper or John Brooke's _Refiner's Fire_. What I've come across in my background reading of a bunch of very entertaining Grail malarky about the Templars, etc., is something very curious. The Cathars claim that Mary Magdelene and Joseph of Arimathea left Jerusalem to Egypt then wandered into southern France where Mary's children through Jesus (yes, Jesus) eventually wound up as the not-so-impressive Merovingian dynasty in France and in other European royal houses (best example of this kind of alternative history: _Holy Blood Holy Grail_--"verrrrrrrry intereshting, but shtupid"). Oh yes, the Cathars also believed God the Father was married to one God the Mother (maybe two). Most people see direct ties between the Cathars and the Gnostics who had similar views. This stuff also intersects with the British-Israel legends, somehow!?! And, I might add, conspiracy theories. (Elvis turns out to be the head of a Jewish/ Freemason/ Knights of Malta/ Rosicrucian/ Illuminati conspiracy to rule the world's savings & loans (he left the banks to the big shots) and eventually became the man who accidentally shot JFK after being abducted by a UFO flown by Louis Farahkan hovering invisibly above the library). If you combine these bits of Cathar legends with early statements by some Mormons you get an interesting nexus: (i) Heber Kimball (among others?) stated that Jesus was married, (ii) early Mormons believed in a Mother in Heaven (and still do), and (iii) some early Mormons believed they were descendents of ancient prophets, and, even descendents of Jesus (this statement was made by George Q. Cannon to the quorum of the 12--apparently they had genealogies purporting to tie into this "line" out of France--see the Rudger Clawson journals published by Signature Books around page 60-80--the "chapter" is called "Descendents of Jesus" or something like that). While I don't want to start a "Jesus was married" thread, I'd be interested if anyone has anything on this topic (whether reliable or not) and ask that they email me directly, especially if it's on early Mormon thought about royal genealogies or possible ties to Cathar-France families/historical baggage. I'm also interested in the true origin of scripture tote bags, something perhaps on topic for AML-List. Ed ===== Read free excerpts from _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_, a Signature Books Bestseller at http://www.signaturebooks.com/bestsell.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 29 May 2001 15:57:22 -0500 > > People who know me know they are going to get a hug. Regardless of > gender. Perhaps it is that I am 60+ and have decided that culture is > not as important as people. We all need hugs. I can't tell you how many > young men have in a moment of a hug after a serious conversation. > something to the effect: " I wish my Dad would hug me like you do". My > Dad hugged me. I am grateful for that. I hugged my children, > particularly after discipline. My wish would be that whoever decided > that hugs were "unmanly" could be hugged by us all, that they might know > the power of a healthy hug! > How wonderful! I find though in the Mormon culture, that it's taboo for married people to touch members of the opposite sex in any way other than a hand shake. As a young adult I had many male friends. But once I moved away and got married, I no longer had male friends. As someone without a father or brothers, that left me bereft of any male contact other than my husband. Now I have three sons, but the taboo is still there. "Don't touch anyone of the opposite sex unless they're family." Anna Wight (having a hard time remembering to put my last name on these posts.) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 29 May 2001 15:29:27 -0500 At 11:24 AM 5/25/01 -0600, Scott Parkin wrote: >As a closet feminist (are men allowed to be feminists; I was once voted an >"honorary woman" by some feminine feminists at a company where it seemed >that only women were competent--does that count?) Maybe. I've had people tell me that someday I will make someone a good wife . . . -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] _Irreantum_ Proofers Needed in Utah County Date: 29 May 2001 15:33:46 -0500 At 02:36 PM 5/25/01 -0600, Chris Bigelow wrote: >Are there any proofers in Utah County who could proof the 96-page spring >Irreantum by June 4th? Does that mean the spring issue will have a chance of being published by June 21, i.e., before spring ends? -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 30 May 2001 10:55:10 -0400 I have to admit I'm not a big fan of male hugs or holy kisses. That's not to say I'll cringe like a homophobe if some guy embraces me from behind, but it's just not my style. Probably a cultural influence. Your complaint reminds me of an afric. amer. guy in my old branch in harlem who complained that the hymns we sang in the church were "too damn slow," and that we needed "something with a little more soul in it." I agreed, invited him to initiate the new music, but he didn't initiate anything, slipped into inactivity (again), and has little to do with the church now except I think for welfare purposes. Good luck on your story. Tom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 30 May 2001 13:37:01 -0600 James Picht wrote: > > _The West Wing_ is pro-Democrat anti-Republican > propoganda, No, it isn't. It's pro-politics. One of the most well-rounded characters is a young Republican working as one the President's lawyers. Her boss, a flaming Democrat, is shown as the biggest jerk on the planet. Other Democrats, even the President, are regularly shown to be flawed human beings. The least flawed, as a matter of fact, is the Republican lawyer. > _The Practice_ would have us believe that there's something noble about > the practice of law The show also shows its characters as less than perfect purveyors of nobility -- they have done their share of dirty deeds to get their clients off. If the show proselytes for any idea, it is the idea that idealism has a fierce price, that of one's integrity. > The hows and whys of a films proselytizing, on the other hand, seem to me very > interesting questions, Dutcher could be accused of proselytizing only if he let the message drive the story. So far, he hasn't done that. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 31 May 2001 04:12:15 +0800 on 5/30/01 4:31 AM, REWIGHT at REWIGHT@TELUSPLANET.NET wrote: > But in this ad, it sounded like they really wanted missionary experiences > from the perspective of a female missionary. Why do some of the men on this > board have a problem with this concept? I don't have a problem with this concept--I don't think anyone does. The original notice simply said they wanted someone to write a novelization/spin-off of "God's Army" and said they wanted women RM writers. It didn't say anything about it being from a sister's viewpoint or about a sister. Since many women authors I know would be up in arms if a request for "male writers only" went out, I thought I would politely ask their reasoning. Once I heard it I was thoroughly satisfied, even though I would never have been in the running anyway. Just curious. Steve ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Steven Kapp Perry, songwriter and playwright http://www.stevenkappperry.com http://www.playwrightscircle.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ Date: 30 May 2001 15:31:35 -0600 On Tue, May 29, 2001 at 03:12:16PM -0700, Elizabeth Hatch wrote: > There are probably many people who'd love to receive Jack Weyland's > stories as gifts. But that's impractical. We can't all live near > him; we can't all know him personally, though we may certainly feel like > his friends; we can't really expect him to give/mail us all copies of > his manuscripts. We need some way for his work to be widely > distributed. Aha! Publishing!! Even if Weyland would give me a copy > of his manuscript, I would certainly expect to reimburse him for > xerox-copying and mailing costs. After all that, I'd probably come out > ahead by going to Deseret Book and buying his book! What about free distribution of his works on a web site? In fact, he could offer valueware fiction: readers pay the author for the value they got out of the text. Usually you will come out ahead at the photocopy machine. Example _Ashley and Jen,_ 287 pp. Suggested retail price $16.95. Price per page from Deseret Book: 6 cents. Price per page checked out from the library and copied with two book pages per sheet: 2.5 cents. So this brings up an interesting question. How much do you value literature? How much would you really pay for reading a quality work? When I first started writing movie reviews, I scored the movies based on how much you should be willing to pay to see the movie. You also should consider that Jack probably gets at most ten percent of the cover price. So even when you value _Ashley and Jen_ enough to pay the $16.95 cover price, you have really only paid Jack about $1.70 for his efforts. Wouldn't you rather pay the author $5 directly for the work rather than having to subsidize some corporate profit machine? (Of course, that profit machine also pays for the editors and proofreaders.) -- Terry Jeffress | Backward ran sentences until reeled the | mind. -- Wolcott Gibbs AML Webmaster and | AML-List Review Archivist | - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MHoltTsutsui@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 30 May 2001 19:21:12 EDT In a message dated 5/30/2001 6:03:15 PM Central Daylight Time, jeffress@xmission.com writes: > < preference to one sex over the other when filling a position; you just > can't make that preference publicly known.>> Sorry, but even that is conditional. I live in Texas where illogical phrase "minorities preferred" is used in employment ads openly and often. Marie Tsutsui - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 30 May 2001 17:21:14 -0600 Stephen Goode wrote: > > There are probably lots of places around the world where this is irrelevant, > because affection among men isn't suspect. I fear that modern American is > all too dirty-minded. "To the impure, all things are impure." I'm reminded of two scenes that took place on two occasions in the last week of Joseph's life. Joseph and Hyrum one night shared the only bed in the upstairs room in Carthage Jail. On another night, there was a gunshot out the window, and Joseph's companions suggested he lay on the floor, which he did, and Dan Jones (I think) lay down next to him, laying his head on Joseph's arm. The fear of physically intimacy of this nature among men appears to be an entirely modern thing. > If only recorders, then for realism's sake, have Mormon male characters who > embrace also slap each other's backs. The correct amount is to slap each other's back three times. It's code for "I'm not gay." > In a writing group, I shared a snippet from a story about two Mormon men who > were acquainted with each other finding each other in a mutually embarassing > situation, a situation that most Mormon men would think would be improbable. > In fact, one comment from a man who read it said it was too far-fetched. > Oddly, it was a composite account that I took from similar true-life > incidents involving several men I know, and it was not in the least > far-fetched. The reviewer also commented on how the piece contained powerful > emotion, but he didn't think it likely. It might have been likely if the > characters had been less active instead of a gospel doctrine teacher and a > ward mission leader. It's only unlikely in the world we choose to see, a > world where good men only do good and bad men only do evil. That is also > Mormon-cultural. This reminds of a story told by a BYU family counselor. He was counseling with a woman, a New Primary teacher who walked into his office covered from next to ankle. She complained about intimacy problems in her marriage. He suggested to her that she could lighten up a little, soften her wardrobe, dress "sexy" once in a while. "Oh, I can't do that!" she said. "I'm the Primary President." -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals -------------------------- Shameless Plug Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 30 May 2001 18:43:39 -0600 Rex Goode wrote: > At a recent seminar I attended on the importance of touch, given by a > well-known author, he described three embraces that are common among people > who are afraid of what same-gender affection might mean. They were: > > 1. The A-frame hug. This is where you lean forward and make certain that > nothing below the general area of the diaphragm touches. It's quite comical. > > 2. The side-saddle hug. This is where the two people approach each other > almost from the side, again in an effort to minimize the contact points. > > 3. The duck hug. This is in reference to the quacking sound the hands make > when they slap the other guy's back. This made me laugh. Someone should do a seminar on hugging your father-in-law (if you're female) or your mother-in-law (if you're male). I think my dad-in-law and I have pretty much mastered that side-saddle hug. The A-Frame won't do at all as long as one of the huggers is female. Women *do* do the pat-on-the-back thing, but it's just that--a gentle pat (or, rather, a series of gentle pats), never a slap. I think this really does grow out of a woman's deeply-ingrained burping instinct. (That doesn't sound quite right, but you know what I mean!) Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 30 May 2001 19:35:05 -0600 I find it fascinating that this seemingly innocuous request from Dutcher has caused such a stir here on the list. I'd like to respond to a couple of points Terry Jeffress made in his post. > practices. IANAL, but I believe that you cannot state a particular > sex as a requirement for employment. In reality, you can give > preference to one sex over the other when filling a position; you just > can't make that preference publicly known. Let's not make this more than it is. As someone already pointed out, this was not an advertisement to "fill a position." It was a simple query sent out over the AML-list. > Also, no one made the explicit claim that a male writer would write > better than a woman. The general implication expressed the idea that > one should look for good and accomplished writers over writers of a > particular sex. Sure, but in this case (particularly given the time constraints that Dutcher alluded to), if the writer is "good and accomplished" *and* a female returned missionary to boot, so much the better! (Terry, responding to Anna Wight): > Then you re-establish the class barrier between men and women by > telling men that they cannot possibly share in a woman's emotional > experience. If men cannot truly understand women, then why do we > bother to get together for Sacrament meeting to hear from the members > of the congregation. We could just as easily stay in our segregated > Priesthood and Relief Society meetings. The example that Anna provided was giving birth. Although this *is* an emotional experience, it is not exclusively (or even primarily) that. Giving birth is physical. Sure, a man can share in the experience, he can observe and describe and do all kinds of research and even interview hundreds of women who have given birth, but he can never know for himself, physically, what it FEELS like. > Also, your statement implies a failing in women writers: that no woman > writer could ever describe the birthing experience in a way that a man > could understand. Do you really believe that childbirth provides such > a unique experience that no one, man or woman, can adequately express > that experience in words. Absolutely! There are a few, transcendent experiences in this life that are utterly ineffable. How many times do we read in the Book of Mormon something to the effect of "words cannot describe . . . " or "tongue cannot speak. . . "? I am a returned sister missionary (and so similar to Sister Fronk that it's almost scary!). Do I think that a gifted, sensitive, hard-working male could write convincingly about the female mission experience? Sure. But I could do it better. All other things being equal, I have the obvious edge. (No, no, no. I'm not campaigning for the gig! There are many women out there much better suited for the task than I. I just hope Dutcher finds one of them. In fact, I think he already has.) Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 30 May 2001 21:35:24 -0500 > > Also, your statement implies a failing in women writers: that no woman > writer could ever describe the birthing experience in a way that a man > could understand. Do you really believe that childbirth provides such > a unique experience that no one, man or woman, can adequately express > that experience in words. I don't believe that. > Yes, I guess I do. Childbirth is such a unique experience that nothing comes close to it. Some have said that the closest that a man can get would be passing a kidney stone. I don't know what it's like to pass a kidney stone. Passing a kidney stone may have similar pain, but there's a whole lot more involved in childbirth than the pain. And the pain is unlike any other pain there is, as is the joy, and for some women, the embarrassment that comes along with it. For you to suggest that men can know what it's like says to me that you don't understand women. I believe that women can be equal to men and do most of the same things. But I also believe we are different and experience different things, and also experience the same things differently. I can just see it now. Husband holding wife's hand as she has one more contraction after 23 hours. And what does he say to her? "Honey, I know just how you feel." By the way, can any writer adequetly express the feelings they would have meeting the Savior for the first time? Or any deeply moving spiritual experience? Or any experience that one feels with extreme intensity? We could try. But I doubt that any writer after trying looks at his work and says he accomplished it. If he did, he would probably be a fairly arrogant creature. There are some things in life that words cannot express. As writers we just try to lessen the gap. I'm not saying that a man can't write from a woman's perspective. I've also stated that I have tried to write from a man's perspective. But I understand a woman's perspective far better than a man's and even when I write from a man's perspective I am writing from a woman's perspective of a man's perspective. Did you get all that? I'm not sure I did. :-) In this situation, I see nothing wrong with them asking for a female writer. If they wanted a male writer for some specific reason I wouldn't have a problem with that. For instance, my husband has tried to explain to me how it feels to give someone a blessing. I've been there when he's given blessings. I've had spiritual experiences myself. Yet I don't know what it's actually like to give a blessing. Nor could I write about it. Maybe someone else could explain it to me better, but I still wouldn't know. As Richard Dutcher explained, in the interest of time, they're looking for a female RM writer. Makes sense to me. There's a lot of research that has to be done by anyone else before the work can be started. A female RM has most of the knowledge needed already. And she can write from her heart as well as her head. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 30 May 2001 23:14:20 -0500 > > My response in no way invalidated emotion as an acceptable response to > a book. In fact, you were the one who wrote a post that looked down > its nose at the intellectual treatise. This frustrated me, because I > believe that an intellectual treatise provides just as valid a > response to a work as the reader who sheds tears while turning the > last page. A reader cannot give a work an inappropriate response. > The author might have intended one response over another, but we > cannot fault the reader for the response. > You have a valid point there and I apologize for frustrating you. Let me try to explain why I made that statement. The original post did seem to turn it's nose down at the woman and others like her, who said that she liked the book because it made her cry. An honest response that to me shows no agenda whatsoever other than to express an opinion. I'm not against having an intellectual conversation with someone about a book. What does the symbolism mean, why did they write it this way etc. But and I could be wrong here, it seems to me that many intellectual responses have another agenda besides expressing an honest opinion. Maybe it's a critic being paid for witty put downs from an editor who wants a controversial column. Maybe another critic is being paid by someone to write something positive. Maybe it's a teacher who's so sure that what he thinks is right and all other answers are wrong. Maybe it's a student trying to make the grade. Maybe it's someone trying to impress someone else with their intelligence. Maybe it's a bid to fit into a group. A lot of intellectual introspection is calculated. And one can give an intellectual response without having an emotional one. Did you ever write those book essays in school? What did the boring books say? Do you remember? Emotion on the other hand is honest. Not every one is going to like everything. I tried to read Angela's Ashes, a best seller that was made into a movie. I couldn't get passed the first chapter. Why? Because I couldn't stand the way it was written. No conversations, all telling, no showing. To this day I can't tell you what the Dickens David Copperfield was about and I read the entire thing. On the other hand, Mark Twain broke every rule with Huckleberry Finn and I fondly remember that book and learned that you CAN break rules. Maybe what I should have said, is that I would be pleased to have someone come to me about my work and say "this is what I got from it," or "is this what this means?" Or even, "I didn't like the book because..." I would love to talk with someone like that on an intellectual level and get their insights. I can talk symbolism. And if a writer wants to take me to the side and say "it might have been better if you had not done so much backstory here" then that would be fine too. And those who would come to me because they had an emotional response from it would get the same amount of respect. However, I would be offended by someone who would state what the my work means, would suggest that they know better than I do what I meant, or put symbolisms and meanings in it that were never expressed. I realize that there will always be critics. And sometimes before I submit my work, I will ask for help with a critique from another writer. This is far different from a critic shooting someone down, and far more helpful. More likely than not, if I do get a book published and I am ever criticized it will be a negative one. But if I get more positive response from people who say "you moved me", then I will find that far more valuable than the negativity of a frustrated critic. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 31 May 2001 02:12:12 -0600 REWIGHT wrote: > I guess I get annoyed by men who claim to know how women feel in > situations that men couldn't possibly know. It's as if men are > trying to take away those experiences, or lessen them. Standing by > someone's side watching a birth, is not the same as actually going > through the experience giving birth. Okay, this is going to get nice and graphic, but I can think of no other way to illustrate my point. You've been warned. Once I had a nasty attack of the runs. Nasty! I was cramping like there was no tomorrow. It was the middle of the night and I was sitting on the throne. Those cramps hit with a searing vengeance. I thought my guts were going to turn inside out. Groans of pain woke my wife, and she came out to see what the heck was going on. I told her I finally understood what childbirth must be like. Now I have zero interest in trying to compare pain scores and see if my cramps measure all the way up to childbirth cramps. That's not the point. The point is I've felt excruciating pain in my abdomen that would not go away until I passed something. If I ever need to write a scene of childbirth from the POV of the mother, I can extrapolate from that night of torture to describe at least part of the experience rather vividly. I can add more understanding from research (e.g., a quote from Carol Burnett that Bill Cosby incorporated into his act: the pain of childbirth is like pulling your lower lip completely over your head). No human experience is beyond the scope of any individual. It might take a lot more work for one person to write well about something he has not personally experienced than another who has experienced it, but the end result can be indistinguishable in effectiveness. On the other hand, I think Richard's reason for wanting a female RM author is perfectly acceptable: time is critical and he doesn't want to wait around for the black Norwegian yada yada writer to do the research. I kind of figured that might be the reason, but since I didn't want to waste a whole message to say so during this high-volume season, you'll have to take my word on that astounding feat of prescience. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 31 May 2001 02:16:52 -0600 Stephen Goode wrote: > Also, what about dishonesty to the story? Would I avoid a scene like the one > described above merely because the average Mormon reader would find it too > incredible? Absolutely, positively not. But if it seems incredible to your likely audience, merely saying "It really happened" isn't good enough (unless you're writing biography or historical fiction or something). This is why the saying "Truth is stranger than fiction" exists. Because truth is just truth and doesn't need to be justified. Fiction never happened, so the author is obliged to make all his events seem plausible. If a hard-to-believe thing happens in your fiction, you need to set it up, foreshadow it, to make it plausible. I once read an anecdote in a how-to-write book. An author wrote a story about a dog who grabbed onto a cable with his teeth as it dangled from a plane passing by for take-off, and was whisked up by the plane. When he submitted the story to an editor, the editor dismissed that as ridiculous. The author produced a newspaper article about that very event actually happening. The editor was not impressed. He didn't care if it had happened. He only cared that it sounded plausible. > Should I second-guess my motives for including it? Nope. If it fits in the story, use it. If you're trying to force it into the story when it doesn't fit, discard it. Motives are irrelevant. > If a story is written in the first person, it is going to have a detectable > point of view. Even if it's written in the third person, a point of view > will be evident. Running around trying to make sure every point of view on a > theme is represented by some character seems like a ridiculous way to compose > a story. It is. Fortunately that's not what I said. I only spoke of representing two major views on a controversial issue. If an author leans heavily in one direction on an issue, then he needs to be very meticulous about presenting the opposite view fairly, otherwise he'll just come across as propagandizing and no one will listen but the choir. Since both sides of an issue usually have valid points to make, this is called honesty. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Missionary Stories (was: Female Writer Wanted) Date: 30 May 2001 23:33:38 -0600 Tom Johnson wrote: >Scott, I actually haven't read any missionary stories at all, though I >recently ordered some (the danube one and the benson duo); didn't pelasco or >petasco or something already write some female missionary stories? i'm >curious to know which missionary stories you've read and which is the best, >since you've read so many. which is the literary masterpiece of missionary >narrators. I'm surprised that you would think the missionary novel is a >sort of closed genre, defunct of interest, considering the yearly crusades >of reinforcements. but then again my lack of reading doesn't inform me to >give a tenable opinion. I don't think the missionary story is a closed genre, but I think the variety of kinds of stories told around the missionary experience has tended to be limited. As, I believe, have most Mormon stories. I just want to see more stories that break out of the familiar patters. Unfortunately, my reading isn't extensive enough to support my own opinion as anything but a knee-jerk comment. Let me try to explain it a little better, though. I've actually read in a fairly haphazard fashion in the "Mormon" genre over the last fifteen years or so. Most of the missionary fiction I've read has been short fiction, with a lot of oral storytelling in between. Notable exceptions are Ben's books and _Angel of the Danube_ in the novel category, and some exerts about missionary experience in other novels or in articles. I can't really explain my frustration with the "missionary story" genre except to say that most stories focus around one of two things--"look how silly young Mormon men are and isn't it a wonder that they get any good work done," and "look at the spiritual growth/spiritual demise that such a focused experience led these generally unprepared young men to experience." To some degree, I guess these definitions can be applied to a vast majority of stories published in the Mormon genres, so maybe what I'm really tired of is the standard old Mormon morality play. It's what I really liked about Dutcher's film _Brigham City_; it gave me a story that addressed me as an individual with a Mormon's religious life, *and* as a person who likes stories about people dealing with core conceptual struggles in their lives. And a not bad murder mystery to boot (though a few too many red herrings for my taste, which is a matter of individual taste, not a point of general criticism). BC succeeds as story without the Mormon elements, but those elements deepen the story and make it a very personal, intimate thing that connects my interior religious life with my more ordinary daily life. And it never attempts to address the question of whether Mormon religion is "right;" it only addresses the fact that the POV has a set of beliefs that affect his behavior and his approach to the events of his life. "The Church" is never a character, though POV's Mormonism is critical to how the story progresses and resolves. And the ultimate truth of that religion is never tested, though we see a clearly successful response to tragedy--the conclusion of the Mormon part of the story in addition to the conclusion of the murder mystery part. The successful integration of two different story elements that combine to create a whole that's more interesting than either of the parts alone. Good stuff. Which is, I guess, where I get tired of so many missionary stories. I think they often contain only one real story element against a generic backdrop. They tend to spend far too much time exposing the frivolity of Mormon youth, and not enough time on the inner development of people. Too much time on external miracles and not enough time on interior characterization and people dealing with issues that are only reflected in their missions, not caused by them. Maybe what I want are stories where the characters' missionary-ness is just part of their background, not the primary focus of the story. Does that make sense? I'm obviously struggling to articulate my thoughts. While I admire Benson Parkinson's craft and effort in his two missionary books, to me they seem to go over so much familiar ground. Maybe it's the very verity of those books that makes them less engaging for me--I've experienced the mundane aspects of a mission and would like to see more of the non-mundane aspects. A mission is more than pranks at doors and impetuous young men learning how be human. I feel generally the same way about _Angel of the Danube._ While it's a very well-wrought book with a vivid voice and excellent writing, it slips too easily into the trivial man-child voice and vernacular, with the oft-used temptation in the form of a woman's taboo companionship during that mission. Yes, that particular temptation is quite common. No, it doesn't characterize every missionary experience--or even, I would argue, a majority. Both of these are good authors with good books. They just don't break any new ground for me as an individual reader. So while I understand the mission as a key coming of age ritual for young Mormons, I think the stories we tell tend to focus on anecdotes, simple morality struggles, and broad iconic experiences instead of the deeply intimate moments of the developing minds and faith of real people. Which is, of course, the struggle that all literature must deal with--how to tell stories that are both specific to the characters and generally accessible to an audience. At the risk of sounding like a groupie, look at what Richard Dutcher is doing with his films to see examples of what I think are nearly perfect stories for me as an individual Mormon. Maybe what I want is less scope--or more. Or more human thought as opposed to iconically Mormon thought. Or less focus on questions of truth, and more on how and why faith works (or fails, though I think we have few well-done stories of how faith succeeds that we do of failure) in the lives of people. I think far too many of our Mormon stories attempt to expose Truth at a grand level, not faith at an intimate level. Sorry for the long brain-dump. It's late and I'm tired, and it take much more work to write briefly than it does to just spew random thoughts. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Date: 31 May 2001 08:55:55 -0600 (MDT) Quoting "D. Michael Martindale" : > The first of the 22 immutable laws of marketing (there was such a book > by that title) is, it's better to be first than to be best. That's why > Jack Weyland is popular. He was one of the first, if not the first, > popularist LDS authors, back when the competition was approximately > nil. > He is now surviving on his laurels because he followed the first law: > he > was first with his product. > > Even better--his competition is still very close to nil. Are there any other LDS young adult fiction writers out there? Sure, there are a few who have a few books out, here and there, but I don't know of any who have anywhere near the number of books that Weyland does. He's got the known name, he's got several books in print at any given time, and he teaches lots of blunt moral lessons that attract parents who buy books for their kids. I wonder--just a thought-- if Covenant or another competing publisher were to launch a Jack Weyland clone who did the same things, only "better", would the real Jack Weyland "improve" his writing? (according to the standards of those of us who argue that he needs to improve?) --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Symbolism (was: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_) Date: 31 May 2001 09:38:10 -0600 (MDT) > I suspect too, that if the actual author of the book took the class in > cognito, they would end up failing it because they wouldn't understand the > symbolism in their own book, according to the teacher and other critics. > > Anna Wight But - look at it this way - Umberto Eco once said (paraphrased) - "Nothing pleases me more than to have readers point out elements in my work I did not intend to be there - yet are still there in any case." Eco has a healthy attitude - he realizes even the most careful, skilled authors (and he is on eof the most) are not always in full concious control of their works, and so things are in the literature that the authort may not have intended, but those elemenst are still there. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Symbolism and Emotional Honesty (was: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_) Date: 31 May 2001 00:04:17 -0700 On Tue, 29 May 2001 15:40:54 -0500 "REWIGHT" writes: > Yeah, yeah. And they hold classes about symbolism and what the > author really meant when he wrote what he did. Symbolism isn't about what the author really meant, it's about how an object or idea or landscape or person functions to deepen and enrich a work of art. For example, suppose you want to write about two teenage boys who like to do offbeat things and you want to suggest that they do offbeat things because they're not sure who they are, so you have them drive around in a hearse. Now suppose one of the boys is Navajo. Suddenly the hearse adds tremendous texture to the story. This Navajo boy really doesn't know who he is, or he wouldn't be riding around in a hearse, and before the end of the story he's going to have to deal with that. Complicate things by adding a Hopi antagonist ("Coach thinks that because we're both Indians we'll like each other. He doesn't know that Navajos hate Hopis. They used to make us slaves.") who calls the Navajo an apple ("red on the outside, white on the inside") then have the Navajo boy run past an apple orchard. You've got two symbols at work in the story that give it resonance and underline the action of the story, the Navajo boy's quest to understand his culture and how he fits in. > And sometimes I wonder, "how does the teacher know that's what the > author meant and how do they know that's what the white daisy means. > Did they ever speak to the writer?" Indeed I have, and as I told A. E. Cannon, if I wanted to explain to a high school English class how a symbol works within a story _The Shadow Brothers_, with its hearse and apples, would be a fine story to look at. > I suspect too, that if the actual author of the book took the class in > cognito, they would end up failing it because they wouldn't > understand the symbolism in their own book, according to the > teacher and other critics. Reminds me of the moment in _Back to School_ where Rodney Dangerfield hires Kurt Vonnegut to write his term paper about one of Vonnegut's novels, and the teacher flunks the paper because the paper shows no understanding of the novel. It also reminds me of the moment in _Annie Hall_ when Woody Allen and the others are standing in line for a movie and start arguing about Marshall McLuhan's ideas, and one of the guys says something like, "When was the last time you spoke to Marshall McLuhan?" and Woody walks over to a sandwich board for the movie and pulls McLuhan out from behind the sign. Many writers work very hard to add texture and depth to a story. Symbolism is not the invention of critics. For a fairly obvious example of symbolism read the first chapter of Martin Cruz Smith's _Stallion Gate_. It's the story of Joseph being delivered from prison after being left there to rot. To emphasize that he's working with that story, Smith retells the encounter between Joseph and Potiphar's wife a couple of chapters later. To further emphasize it, he named the main character Joe. > I think we need to stop looking down our noses at people who "loved > the book because it made them cry". This reason is as valid if not > more so, than any other. It's honest. Or it could be manipulation from the writer. I once found a book of mystery writers writing on their craft. Ken Follett told how in _The Key To Rebecca_ he has the Nazi spy kidnap a little girl in making his getaway. He said the character would never do that because she would slow him down, but Follett needed an emotional hook for the audience, something that would keep them reading--give them a sense that something was at stake, so he hoped the suspense would be great enough that the audience wouldn't think about the incongruity in the story. In other words, Follett is saying that he couldn't think of a way to make the stakes sufficiently high, so he resorted to manipulating the audience by being dishonest about what the character he created would actually do. I think we're about due for another discussion of emotional honesty in how a work of art achieves its effects. It has a lot of implications--particularly if you talk about pornography as a legal or literary concept. This is something I just started thinking about. The traditional concept of pornography, as laid out in the Ulysses decision is that if a work has "socially redeeming value," that is, significant literary or artistic merit, then, even if it is sexually explicit (like The Birth of Venus, or The Kiss) it's not pornographic. Another common definition is D. H. Lawrence's dictum that pornography does dirt on sex. Another is the feminist critique that pornography objectifies womens' bodies, treating them as parts for the gratification of men, rather than treating women as human beings. All these definitions imply that pornography lacks emotional honesty. Both the feminist definition and Lawrence's imply that the pornographer is not interested in the emotional nature of sex as a union of two people, but only wants to tittilate men. I think the Ulysses decision implies the same thing, because usually what we mean by significant artistic merit is that a work honestly explores a deep range of human emotion. I'm not trying to start a thread on pornography, or suggest that Jack Weyland is emotionally dishonest (when I read a Weyland novel I know that whatever faults I'll get an interesting take on a popular genre--I love what he did to the thriller genre in _On the Run_), but I would like to discuss honesty, and the ways people get emotional reactions from other people. Cornsidering how a passionate orator like Madolf Heatlump (who only had one--I miss John Lennon) can create passion in a crowd emotion in art and culture might be worth discussing. Harlow Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Human Emotions (Was: Female Writer Wanted) Date: 31 May 2001 12:45:11 -0600 At 02:33 PM 5/30/01 -0600, you wrote: > >As I stated in a previous post, I believe that the range of human >emotions is fundamentally static. Pain is pain, joy is joy, grief is >grief. I believe that empathy works because human beings all share >the same emotional palette. < I agree. I remember thinking, as a young girl, that males didn't have emotions, because I never saw them display any. That was before I knew anything about the way cultural perception shapes people's behavior. I've since learned better about the emotions, of course. At this point I do believe that men and women think differently. Some of these differences result from cultural shaping, but some are innate. A study of these differences is endlessly fascinating. These differences lead to different ways of dealing with emotions, which leads to misunderstandings on the part of both genders. After my divorce, I went through a period of looking at all men as self-centered, brutish creatures one was better off without. I've since learned how wrong that view was. (Isn't it wonderful how much we learn while we're on this planet?) The thing I still think is true, however, is that our cultural environment teaches men to hide the tender, sweet side of their nature, which is the part that seizes a woman's heart. The arrogant, strong, muscular, powerful side of their nature is thrilling to us, but I think it calls to something other than the heart. This change in viewpoint on my part has led to quite a change in the way I develop my characters. I love the way a writer's worldview colors his or her fiction! One reason LDS fiction fails to reach a certain segment of readers outside our faith is that it reveals a worldview that strongly conflicts with that of many people in our society. Part of the challenge we face is to present a universe in which God's love is real, but is yet recognizable to them as the one they live in--a universe they have come to perceive as cold, heartless, uncaring, even actively hostile and malignant. Reconciling those two views is difficult. After all, if I start reading a story in which the assumption is that there is no God and existence is meaningless, I toss it aside. It doesn't resonate with me. How to deal with this need to reconcile worldviews is something I haven't figured out. Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] A Curious Project Date: 31 May 2001 13:42:47 -0600 Ed Snow wrote: > What I've come across in my background reading of a > bunch of very entertaining Grail malarky about the > Templars, etc., is something very curious. The Cathars > claim that Mary Magdelene and Joseph of Arimathea left > Jerusalem to Egypt then wandered into southern France > where Mary's children through Jesus (yes, Jesus) > eventually wound up as the not-so-impressive > Merovingian dynasty in France and in other European > royal houses (best example of this kind of alternative > history: _Holy Blood Holy Grail_--"verrrrrrrry > intereshting, but shtupid"). I'll second that. I enjoyed _Holy Blood Holy Grail_ very much. It is stupid (talk about speculative fiction), no doubt, but it is intriguing because it is obvious that if nothing else, there is a group of very serious people who believe it all. And frankly, I think it'd be kind of interesting if the lineage of Jesus did exist in a withered secret society desperately clinging to their sense of superiority. Of course, if such a lineage exists and does go through Charlemagne as they claim, then pretty much all of Europe shares the bloodline by now (and most of North America of course including, well, me :)... Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Influencing Mormon Culture Date: 31 May 2001 15:42:56 -0600 At 01:16 PM 5/30/01 -0700, you wrote: > >I think that modern American men in general are too phobic about > contact, not just Mormon men. We just someone chose the duck hug over the > A-frame and side-saddle. > >There are probably lots of places around the world where this is >irrelevant, because affection among men isn't suspect. I fear that modern >American is all too dirty-minded. < I've been in countries where the men are not afraid of their own emotions. They haven't been trained to think that it's weak and shameful to show their feelings. Italian men embrace; Egyptian men hold hands. I know that I, as a woman, at some point realized that I had been socialized to react in certain ways that were not natural for me, just as males in our culture shrink from the loving embrace of another man. But perhaps the ways they've learned to show affection instead of hugs work just as well. A man meets a friend for whom he feels deep affection, and instead of flinging his arms around his friend as a women would, he gives him a bruising punch in the arm and says something like, "How's it going, you plug-ugly disgrace to the human race?" What about it, guys--does that work for you? I was recently reading a Georgette Heyer novel written in the 1920s. In the book, a woman is out riding with a gentleman when one of his male friends shows up. The gentleman basically tells him to take a hike, and he'll let him know if he ever wants to see his face. The woman remarks, "Men are rude to their friends, and polite to people they don't like." He says, "Yes. Of course." She says, "Why do they do that?" He says, "I should think the answer to that would be obvious." Well, it's never obvious to her, but he's quite satisfied with his explanation! A writer needs to understand the viewpoint of each character, even those quite different from the writer's own. Reminds of the quip I saw recently: Girl: Why do boys think that gross things are funny? Boy: Why do girls think that funny things are gross? Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Female Writer Wanted Date: 31 May 2001 16:49:06 -0700 <<>> =20 Thanks for pointing this out, Steve. I'm in the same boat. When I = challenged the female BFOQ, I didn't realize this was for a spinoff in a = female POV. I thought it was a direct novelization of _God's Army._ = Frankly, it makes complete sense to prefer a female novelist for a female = POV story. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] _Irreantum_ Proofers Needed in Utah County Date: 31 May 2001 16:45:05 -0700 <<>> Sigh. That's the idea.=20 NEXT issue we're going to catch up, I just know it. (By the way, I just = found out our summer issue will run a sneak preview of the first two = chapters of Anne Perry's _Tathea_ sequel, accompanying her interview.) Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm