From: katie@aros.net Subject: [AML] McCLOUD, _Kirtland_ (Review) Date: 29 Jun 2001 14:20:49 -0600 (MDT) McCloud, Susan Evans. _Kirtland_. Bookcraft, 2000. 266 pp. =20 Hardcover, $21.95. Reviewed by Katie Parker Summary: _Kirtland_ follows the story of Esther Parke Thorne and her family and=20 friends as they arrive and try to make a home in Kirtland, following the=20 leadership of the prophet Joseph Smith. Esther is in her early twenties,= =20 with a young daughter. She and her husband Eugene are baptized in the=20 opening pages, after moving with the Saints from Palmyra. (Their=20 Palmyra years are covered in the previous book, _Palmyra_.) Critique: The prose is beautiful. It is filled with lovely poetic images and=20 interesting insights into the human condition. For those who enjoy such=20 work, this book is a treasure. For those readers looking for plot, however, it is difficult to catch hol= d of. =20 And the dialogue is as flowery as the text. Here is a passage from pages= =20 44 and 45. Background information is not necessary. <<<<< As we sat I glanced toward the house entrance a few times=85To my=20 astonishment I watched Eden, the eldest Frey girl, mince out with her arm= =20 tucked through the arm of a male companion. The sight of them made me=20 go cold. =20 "Eugene!" I tugged at his sleeve. "That is Jedediah Comstock that Eden i= s=20 stepping out with=85Why did (her father) not throw him out of here on his= =20 ear?" I demanded hotly. "He is not only a Gentile, but a man with no=20 scruples. I have heard very unpleasant things about him." "Eden came below stairs=85and informed him with as much coy smugness=20 as a cat who is licking the last of cream from her whiskers that he would= =20 allow her to keep company with the gentleman, else she would pack her=20 belongings on the instant and go stay with Bertha Walker=97who has=20 already offered her the use of a cozy little room above the millinery sho= p." I felt sick inside. "Eugene, why? What has attracted her to him?" "Who can tell, love, who can tell?" "Does she do it for spite?" "For adventure, more likely. Some women become enamored of their=20 own charms and find it is thrilling to test them, to see how far they can= go=20 on them." "All the way to destruction and despair," I cried. "Esther, Esther!" Eugene kissed my forehead, my lips. Then, savoring the= =20 pleasure of it, he kissed me again. "There is no one like you, Esther, w= hen=20 it comes to fretting yourself about the ways and woes of another." "I cannot help it," I moaned. "It seems I can feel their pain, Eugene, a= s if=20 it were mine. Their pain, and the pain they inflict so thoughtlessly upo= n=20 others. Injustice fires up the very depths of me, and I want to put=20 everything right." "Yes, I know." >>>>>> I chose this selection for several reasons. First, it shows the use of f= lowery=20 prose. Second, it is one of many passages that contains insights and=20 wisdom. I consider both of these to be strengths of the book, but in th= is=20 passage they become weaknesses. This is one of many instances in which=20 we are given a potentially interesting conflict, but we are not allowed t= o=20 actually see it and feel it. Instead, it is explained to us, along with = the=20 personality of the main character. Not all of the conflicts are told thr= ough=20 dialogue, but far too many of them are simply told by Esther in her poeti= c=20 way. The conflict is presented, allowed to stew for a page or two, and=20 then ended or left alone for later. And unfortunately, Esther's poetic=20 philosophizing creates a distance between the reader and the action. =20 Esther may feel their pain, but, for the most part, I don't. There are just too many small plots going on. Instead of weaving a few=20 strong storylines into the narrative, the author presents us with one cri= sis=20 after another. Each crisis has a fairly simple solution. For example, e= arly=20 on we are introduced to Emmeline, a timid child who lives with an abusive= =20 father. After Esther and her friend Georgeanna ("Georgie") weep over her= =20 situation for a few pages, they have a bright idea to have her board with= a=20 family who needs extra help. The family agrees to it, Emmeline's father=20 agrees to it, and everything is fixed in the next few pages. Then, when=20 Esther and Georgie discover that Emmeline's father is still beating her=20 when she comes home on weekends, they arrange to have her work for=20 them during that time instead. Problem solved. Then a new crisis is=20 introduced. =20 Emmeline's story does resurface at times throughout the book, but again i= t=20 is easily dealt with. The clincher for me comes near the end when, after= =20 she has been working for Georgie and Esther for a few years, they ask=20 how old she is and she says she is seventeen. Seventeen! They hadn't=20 realized it, either; they had supposed that she was only twelve or thirte= en. =20 Esther attributes it to time passing too quickly. I don't know what to=20 attribute it to, except perhaps that McCloud didn't know how to resolve a= =20 particular storyline so she suddenly made Emmeline seventeen so she=20 could fall in love and get married. At any rate, this maneuver left me=20 feeling violated as a reader. Approximately three years before, she had=20 been described as a shy child, not as a blossoming adolescent. I had=20 pictured a scraggly girl of about twelve, not seventeen!=20 Church history is not a huge presence. Rather, it is a story of Esther a= nd=20 her friends and their lives as the Church is beginning. Occasionally thi= ngs=20 going on in the Church are mentioned, such as the announcement of the=20 Kirtland temple. Occasionally Esther reflects on her testimony. But it'= s=20 not a rewriting of _The Work and the Glory_ with new characters, and=20 they are not best friends with all the important people from Church=20 history. Events in the Church are usually in the background, or not=20 present at all. Some of the other storylines in the book include a mission (which lasts f= or=20 all of two pages), sacrifice for the temple, matchmaking for friends, dea= th=20 of loved ones, Esther taking in her own young brother after the death of=20 her mother, helping a crippled man, coping with extra people staying in=20 their home, earning money for postage to send mail to family in Palmyra,=20 and so on. One storyline that does persist to the end of the book invo= lves=20 two close friends of theirs who are meant for each other, but only the gi= rl=20 realizes it, and she's finally about to marry someone else when=85 well,=20 you get the idea. Also near the end, they are persecuted along with the=20 other Saints, and some of that is interesting. There's lots of potential= ly=20 good material here, and it's beautifully presented. It's just not presen= ted=20 in a manner that worked for me. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 29 Jun 2001 11:10:45 -0600 Jeffrey Savage wrote: >There are many great novels=20 >and movies that manage to tell amazing stories without any of that, = but=20 >the popular trend is to add extra sex and profanity, just as tobacco=20 >companies add extra nicotine to their cigarettes. What a harsh judgment! I would be loathe to characterize my fellow = artists so dismissively. Broken record time: I don't think we get to make this kind of judgment. = =20 I think we owe all our brothers and sisters the courtesy of a presumption = of good will. I think we need to understand that for most writers, the = choice to make profanity part of a character's voice is an aesthetic = choice, not a moral choice. By the same token, the choice, in film or = theatre, to use the artistic tool of nudity is an aesthetic choice. = Certainly all aesthetic choices have moral ramifications, but the choice = to use profanity or nudity or to depict sexual behavior artistically isn't = freighted with more moral significance than the choice to have a character = say "I love you," or "let's eat," or wear a blue jumper rather than a pink = one. Perhaps, as LDS artists, we feel that we shouldn't create characters = who use profanity, or perhaps we feel that we can give a scene the same = emotional power without nudity than we could with nudity. Those are = surely decisions all artists must make for themselves. But please, let's = not judge the choices made by our brothers and sisters. =20 I was thinking about this recently while watching Pearl Harbor, actually. = I found it a profoundly annoying movie. I detested the love story, which = I found simultaneously cliched and preposterous. I felt like I was always = an hour ahead of the movie, so that each big plot revelation elicited, not = an astonished gasp, but an irritated moan. "Typical Hollywood nonsense," = I thought, watching it. And then I kind of caught myself. I don't know = the writer, and I don't know where the story came from. It could easily = be the true story of the writer's grandfather and how he met his wife, for = all I know. The acting was pretty good. The love story bugged me because = I felt like I'd seen it all before, and because I found it predictable, = and so I judged the writer; I assumed that he (I think it was a guy) stuck = in a love story because that mythical entity called Hollywood (also known = as Jerry Bruckheimer) figured that American audiences wouldn't watch a = three hour movie about a battle we lost without some 'human interest' = (otherwise known as romance) to keep our attention. And that may be what = happened. It could be that the essential integrity of the story was in = fact compromised for commercial reasons. But I don't get to make that = judgment. I can only respond to what I saw on the screen, and what I saw = was a love story that did not engage my interest. By the same token, the = film states that the Jimmy Doolittle raid was the 'turning point' of the = war in the Pacific theatre, and that from that point on, the Japanese = began 'pulling back.' I'm just enough of an historian to consider both = those statements utter nonsense. The Doolittle raid accomplished nothing, = the turning point of the war in the Pacific was pretty obviously the = battle of Midway, and Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal show how interested the = Japanese were in 'pulling back.' But those are my interpretations of = historical fact. I believe that we have an obligation to speak carefully = about the work of artists. I would say that those two statements are = inconsistent with my understanding of history. I would be hesitant to say = much more. =20 Okay, back to the main point. I don't think that the question of profanity = or sexuality is in any way germane to the quality of fiction. I don't = think we should say that LDS fiction needs more sex and profanity or less = sex or profanity. Those considerations strike me as irrelevant and = uninteresting. I do recognize that other LDS critics disagree with me, = and I want to understand and respect the points of view of anyone on the = List. But surely the more important issues have to do with the relative = truthfulness of the fiction, the ways in which fiction illuminates the = human condition. =20 We're commanded to learn from the 'best books.' I've been thinking a lot = about D & C 88 lately, mostly because I just taught it in Sunday School. = What are these 'best books' we're to learn from? Would genre fiction be = included? Of course it would; I can't imagine that the Lord wouldn't want = us to gain from the insights into the human condition offered by Elmore = Leonard, J.R.R. Tolkien, P.D. James or C. S. Forester. Or Stephen King. = The 'best books' must include imaginative fiction, and Young Adult = literature and good television writing and really good movies. I really = don't think that the Lord wants to work our laborious way through the = Harvard Classics or some list of the 100 greatest novels, and then when = we're done with them say to ourselves 'okay, right, I'm now finished with = that commandment.' Nothing wrong with reading classics, too, of course.=20= This past summer, I spent two long trips on a bus with a man named Colin = Rich. Colin was our bus driver. He's the best driver I know, and I loved = watching him drive. I love to drive, and I think I learned a lot. But = Colin is also a man who loves trees and plants and nature. Wherever we = went, we'd see some oddly shaped tree or strangely blossoming flower, and = we'd ask him about it, and he always knew what kind of tree or flower it = was, plus all sorts of fascinating information about it. Colin is not a = well educated man. But in some ways, of course, he's a very well educated = man, and I loved learning from him. For Colin, the 'best books' included = gardening manuals. And for me, that's just one more thing I'm going to = have to learn more about. =20 Eric Samuelsen=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 29 Jun 2001 16:10:26 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > Overcoming the downsides: whatever money is available is > available--everyone will have to understand that, and be willing to take > whatever cut is worked out. In return for sacrificing some of the > royalty, the author will have a means to rise above the usual iUniverse > publication, because it will have been selected and edited by editors, > thereby assuring better quality. I'm wondering if an arrangement can be > struck with iUniverse: they insist on having their imprint on the book, > but I'm wondering if they'd share an imprint with us, so we can get our > books to stand out from the iUniverse crowd. No need to go that far. Alexander's here in Orem can do POD but you have to provide the ISBN and the color cover. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 29 Jun 2001 16:08:36 -0700 The AML already has the Marilyn Brown novel contest with a $1,000 award = toward publication. Maybe the AML itself should start publishing good = novels that come through that channel. However, we wouldn't want to divert = winning authors from better publishing opportunities, such as Alan = Mitchell's good book with Cedar Fort and Jack Harrell's upcoming winner = with Signature. But we could at least get a start with some books we = believe in that don't find other publishers. We start with a trickle and = work toward a stream (of sales figures as well as number of releases). And another thought: the AML is an award-giving and scholarly/critical = organization; would it be a conflict of interest to start publishing = original creative works? If so, maybe Irreantum should be spun off as an = independent magazine and book publisher--but not without a new, major = source of funding (not that the AML has enough funds to support even = Irreantum magazine presently, but it's a better platform to work from than = nothing).=20 Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Dutcher Joseph Smith Project Date: 29 Jun 2001 16:23:33 -0600 Frank Maxwell wrote: > > However, the disadvantage of your way of dramatizing the First Vision would > be that some people would construe it as disproving or devaluing the 1838 > account. They would say that you didn't dramatize the 1838 account because > it is less accurate than the others (even though it's longer and more > detailed). They would construe it as having dramatized their alternative > version of Joseph Smith's story: that he only saw angels, and that he > later made up the stuff about seeing Deity. > > I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages of being "fresh". True, if I were making a film primarily for Church members. This script was designed for the General Public who, you can bet, would be less bothered by Joseph have a general purpose vision than one where Christ tells him that all Churches were false. > I would suggest 2 other ways to cinematize the First Vision: > > 1. Dramatize the Vision in a way which includes details from all of > Joseph's written accounts (none of which contradict each other, by the > way). James Arrington did this orally for a conference of the Mormon > History Association years ago, when they met in the Kirtland Temple. I > think his "combined" account of the First Vision was published in Dialogue. > This version would include both Deities, and angels, and everything else > that Joseph described. Think motion picture here. A film where you've spent maybe a hundred million dollars and you have a major star playing Joseph, and you're hoping for an Academy nomination. I believe the above portrayal would be seen by credits as manipulative, another attempt by Mormons to convert the world. > 2. Dramatize each of his accounts in flashback format, but in a way that > tantalizes the audience into wanting to see the next flashback. For > instance, start off when he's writing down in his personal journal his > earliest account of the Vision, the one in which he writes that Jesus told > him that he is forgiven of his sins.* I would portray the First Vision as accomplishing only that. I would not end the vision there, but cut-away, suggesting that other things were said. The reason is because getting forgiveness of sins is something that more people can deal with. Joseph's vision then becomes a personal vision, and because it's personal, it stands a better chance of touching a non-Mormon audience. Adding all the flashbacks would, IMO, muddy the motivational waters. Look at Braveheart. William Wallace's wife's murder was the catalyst that gave him his real motivation: Freedom. Very simple. That's why the film worked, imo. The main character's motivation was easy to understand. In reality, I'm sure it was much more complicated than that. In reality, there may have been some ego involved, the sense of power, the rush one gets when other people hang on your every word. But I'm not sure the story would have been helped by including all those possible motivations. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 29 Jun 2001 16:39:17 -0600 ---Original Message From: D. Michael Martindale > Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > > But art is, well, art. It isn't worth the danger of offending somebody. > > We are happy to offend people for the sake of the Gospel, but we > > *don't* want to offend for the sake of anything less important. > > > > The thing is, when you talk about people and the gospel, you are > > dealing with eternal consequences. > > > Which means that the Church actively softens things for the easily > > offended as long as they don't compromise doctrine. > > > If just one person takes that advice and the effect is to irreparably > > harm their eternal progression then there is all the damage you need > > to justify squelching exactly that message. The worth of souls is > > great, after all. > > The fallacy in this argument is assuming that softening > things doesn't offend anybody. The church isn't decreasing > offense--it's shifting it. The church is tacitly stating that > easily offended members who don't like to think for > themselves are more inportant than members who think. The > church is telling artists and lovers of art that they are not > important. And guess what! These kind of people are falling > away in droves. Um. Droves? I think you overstate. And frankly, I've never heard of an intellectual/artist/writer/whatever who left the Church because of Church policy about art (or because there wasn't enough swear words in a play). They tend to leave when they find something that few members know about or because they can't accept some doctrine that has been taught--i.e. for ideological reasons not presentation reasons. But yes, it is a shift of offense. I tried to make that clearer in the bottom half of my response when I discussed the effect on artists in more detail. At any rate, I think it may be a legitimate shift to take the burden from those who are struggling with the gospel, have less understanding, and are easily offended to those who, as you say, think. And if you want to claim victim status, it is a shift from a larger population to a decidedly smaller one. > So here's my summary in my usual crude, offensive way: "The > worth of an ignorant soul is great in the sight of God. As > for the rest of you--you're on you own." That's what the > church's attitude as you postulate it says to me. Well, like I said, I don't think we're losing people because of the simplifications. We lose some of our intellectuals, but not because of how the Church has decided to present its message. > > Personally, I hate the effect that this reality has on some members. > > Melissa had a conversation recently where her Church superior (i.e. > > Primary President) actually *said* that "there must be something wrong > > with fiction if the brethren removed it from the Friend." > > > I think it would be much more useful to teach the principles of their > > decisions while they implement them. > > > But then, explaining things is hard. And dangerous. I mean, it takes > > time and work to craft an explanation in the first place. The risk is > > that you give wiggle room when you explain your decisions--you risk > > someone disbelieving in your calling and your message because they > > disagree with your reasons > > An explanation gives wiggle room, but silence and a lack of > information doesn't? Silence gives _maximum_ wiggle room. At > least with an explanation, they have to wiggle within a > well-bounded region. Silence gives free reign to roam anywhere. The lack of an explanation means that people have to pray about it and follow or not. Giving an explanation means that people can deal with the explanation without dealing with the message. No explanation means people have to argue with God. An explanation gives people a chance to argue with the GAs. I'd call that having more wiggle room if I can take on the reasoning of a GA instead of God. > Explaining is hard? Let me try... > > "We've decided that the purpose of church magazines is to > disseminate doctrine, not fiction. Therefore we are > discontinuing fiction in church magazines. But this in no way > suggests that we think something's wrong with fiction. We > encourage our members to continue reading good fiction, and > would like to see some independent sources for fiction move > in to replace that which the church magazines used to carry." > > Didn't seem so hard. I don't think there's anything > doctrinally problematic in the statement. I don't know where > you'd find much wiggle room to get it wrong. Seems like a > pretty benign statement to me. And wouldn't that be a great > shot in the arm to LDS fiction! Okay, now try getting that explanation through a correlation committee and/or a unanimous vote of 15 people with vastly different backgrounds and opinions. Getting the resolution itself passed by a group is a cake walk compared to getting that same group to agree on a statement of reason. Looks easy if you have full autonomous authority to craft a reason for yourself, but spread the responsibility around a bit and it quickly becomes a Herculean task. > > Just > > because it would make me feel better, doesn't mean it is worth taking > > the time away from their official calling to preach the gospel to all > > the world. Which brings me back to my first point that art isn't as > > important as teaching the gospel--no matter how good or True it might > > be. > > Why can't art be _equivalent_ to preaching the Gospel? Do we > really think General Authority speeches are going to reach > the hearts of every person on earth? Because art is nowhere *near* the equivalent of preaching the Gospel. No doubt you *can* teach gospel principles through art. We've had a number of discussions that indicate a faithful Mormon can't really *not* teach gospel principles through art, at least as much as they understand and believe gospel principles. But that is a whole lot different from preaching the Gospel direct because the direct address challenges the listener/reader to recognize the truth of doctrine taught plain. And as much as you may think you know or can communicate about something like the Atonement, you won't *really* know anything at all about it until you hear the story told plain and with accompanying testimony of its truth. Art may prepare someone to accept the Gospel, but a) it isn't the only way to be prepared to accept the Gospel and b) it isn't enough by itself for someone to accept the Gospel. That is why I say that as much as I like and even value art, it is nowhere near equivalent in value to preaching the Gospel. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OmahaMom@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 29 Jun 2001 18:40:37 EDT Sex doesn't make you gain weight? Obviously spoken by somebody who had never been pregnant! Frankly, as one who doesn't particularly want to eyeball what goes on in someone else's bedroom either on the printed page, or on the screen, there are as many ways of handling sex in art & literature as there is artists & writers. I choose to go with those who handle it at least somewhat discretely. Same thing with profanity & guttermouth vocabulary. I know it exists, but don't choose to fill my life with it. It's why I didn't finish the first Stephen King novel I ever picked up and have never picked up another. If there was anything redeeming in the novel, I couldn't get far enough into it to find it because of the language. I don't talk that way. Most of the people I associate with don't talk that way, and even those at work who sometimes slip in front of me, apologize...not that I've made a big deal of it--but that they recognize my standards. I buy a lot of books, doctrinal, fiction, non-fiction, both Church oriented and not. Fiction authors that I know to use a lot of language that I don't want to hear, or a lot of steamy scenes--I don't purchase. But one of the most powerful books I've read in LDS fiction dealt with an extramarital affair. Things can be done tastefully. But it takes care. Karen Tippets - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "thomasb5" Subject: Re: [AML] GAs in Church Pubs Date: 29 Jun 2001 18:00:10 -0500 If I understood you correctly, McConkie was working on a SF trilogy? What is the history behind this? Rick T ----- Original Message ----- > The hymnbook is a somewhat different beast. Every ward buys them, whether they contain > hymns by McConkie or not, and McConkie's hymn inclusion seems almost an example of > vanity-press printing rather than the market-driven acceptance his SF trilogy would > have received (had he ever finished it). - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Hatch Subject: [AML] Good News Date: 29 Jun 2001 16:18:07 -0700 I'm delighted to announce that my first picture book, HALLOWEEN SURPRISE, will be published by Doubleday Books for Young Readers, probably in the fall of 2003. It's an exciting time, with lots to learn. Right now I'm beginning to think about website designs and school/library presentations, and all the things that first-time authors must learn to do to sell, sell, sell those books! It's fun to get to share my news with all of you. :0) Beth/Elizabeth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 29 Jun 2001 17:12:38 -0600 ---Original Message From: James Picht > Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > > That is because there is a fundamental difference between "doctrine" > > and "art". > > While that difference is clear to me, the line between the > two is not. Doctrine would be well-served by great art, and > for a much larger community over a longer time than by the > safe and simple art that's now preferred. I think that the > evaluation of art-in-service-of-doctrine by the brethren is > extremely difficult, requires judgements that they aren't > always willing or able to make, hence they prefer the use of > iconography - set patterns and symbols that often strike us as bland. I wish I could have communicated that as well as you do here. It isn't what I was thinking at the time, but it certainly makes sense to me. > > But art is, well, art. It isn't worth the danger of offending > > somebody... The thing is, when you talk about people and the gospel, > > you are dealing with eternal consequences. You can't dilute the > > gospel without potentially damaging the eternal destination of the > > very people you want to bring to God. > > You seem to forget that there's a trade-off. If bland art > doesn't offend, neither does it engage, and an opportunity to > present the gospel is lost. Rather than turn someone off to a > particular eternal destination, you may fail to get him on it > in the first place. That also ignores the fact that "safe" > art may not be safe at all. There are clearly people on this > list who find it at the very least irritating, if not > offensive. It might be nice to do an eternal cost-benefit > analysis of our homogenized art, but we can't. We can see, > though, that there are costs as well as benefits, and those > costs are measured, as are the benefits, in the welfare of > souls. Hence the argument that follows doesn't make much sense to me: > > > If just one person takes that advice and the effect is to irreparably > > harm their eternal progression then there is all the damage you need > > to justify squelching exactly that message. > > Either way, there will be damage. You'll lose at least one > either way, I think While I'll concede that you'll lose at least one either way, I think that you'll lose more if you offend those who are easily offended or who don't understand what you are trying to do because they can't get past how you do it. It's a bigger population, for one. It's also a population of people who, by the way we've defined it, will take action based on the presentation whereas those who don't like the blandness are more likely to respond based on message anyway. That said, I think your point below is a more likely explanation of Church Art policies because an eternal cost/benefit is simply out of our reach. If we assume that the decisions are driven by an eternal cost/benefit, then we have to assume that the policies are set directly by God (who is the only one capable of such analysis) which, while certainly possible, I don't find likely (at least not in the sense of direct, minute examination of policy). > so I perceive the course the church > takes to be the easier one, since its costs are lower in > terms of institutional decision-making. That is, since we > can't measure the costs of our policy in souls, we choose to > reduce more easily discerned institutional costs. Rules are > easier to administer than a policy of discretion, and simpler > art is more easily evaluated according to rules. I don't > think we need put this in terms of lost souls at all. Makes sense to me. > > Personally, I hate the effect that this reality has on some members. > > Melissa had a conversation recently where her Church superior (i.e. > > Primary President) actually *said* that "there must be something wrong > > with fiction if the brethren removed it from the Friend." I'm afraid > > that this is only the beginning of the inevitable fallout. > > It may be, and it illustrates the potential for offense and > lost souls as a cost of the "no fiction" policy. The attitude > of the Primary president is offputting to me, to say the > least. I won't leave the church over it, but we all know > people who might. You see, I don't. I don't know anyone who would leave the church because a Primary President said she thought the GAs had decided fiction was wrong. Offputting, sure. Enough to leave the Church over? The thing is, I just don't think that there is much of a cross section between those who are offended easily enough to leave over such a minor comment and those who are likely to be offended at that comment. > > By implementing a no fiction policy at Church magazines on the sly..., > > they imply things that they probably don't mean (that fiction is bad). > > I think that making the reason for the policy explicit is > possible only if the brethren can articulate it to > themselves. I'm not certain that they can, since most of the > cost-benefit analysis we do in life is done at an intuitive > level, without a clear understanding of why we do what we do, > only a feeling that it's right. As you say, Well, even if the brethren are personally clear on their reasons, I think it would be very difficult to create institutional clarity. Which was my point below. > > But then, explaining things is hard. And dangerous. I mean, it takes > > time and work to craft an explanation in the first place. > > It also means clarifying the issues to yourself, and we > sometimes shy away from that instinctively. It is, as you > say, dangerous. Yes. The writing of the explanation isn't the barrier, the formulation of it is. > > Which brings me back to my first point that art isn't as important as > > teaching the gospel--no matter how good or True it might be. > > I agree with you to a point. The tool isn't as important as > the product. Art is the tool, spreading the gospel message is > the product. If there are better tools than art, we should > use them. But aside from direct learning through the spirit, > the message is spread through words, symbols, images - > elements of art, if not art itself. A better use and > understanding of that tool can have a tremendous impact in > getting the product out, but only with some risk. Life is a > risk, and the Plan of Salvation entails enormous risk. Why > should church leaders shy away from risk? Well, that's a good question, but one I think you answered already (better than I did). I agree that the distinction is between a tool and a product. The question is what are the risks of using more difficult tools and what are their benefits. As you pointed out above, the risks are eternal in nature and fundamentally unknowable--as are the benefits. Since both the risks and the benefits are fundamentally unknowable, then it's probably best to stick with easy, or at least uncomplicated which is essentially the same thing. As an explanation, I think it is at least as likely as my own. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Re: Church Endorsement (was: Institutional Art) Date: 28 Jun 2001 18:12:19 -0700 D. Michael Martindale opines: >I'll never forget the day I was hawking my opera to some retail stores >and one guy asked me, "Is it approved by the church?" Where on >earth did this fellow get the idea the church _ever_ endorses art? This is an issue faced by everyone who attempts to pursue normal life amongst the Saints. We who homeschool are often asked the same question -- often in a most accusatory manner. The correct answer to this fellow, and to every other fellow like him, is "Yes." If he requires further light and knowledge, the correct response is: "Define 'Church.'" ("The church is the organized body of believers who have taken upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ by baptism and confirmation." ["CHURCH." Bible Dictionary ]) Then you propose this syllogism: "I am the Church; the Church is me. And I -- who am as much 'The Church' as any other member -- approve. Ipso facto, 'The Church' approves." --lmg ----- MEET MY KIDS>> http://www.pagoo.com/signature/pagoo28 WHAT ARE WE WRITING NOW? Do you have your copy of LauraMaery's book " Mormons on the Internet 2000"? Thousands of LDS Internet resources, categorized, reviewed and rated. New sections on Internet safety, teaching helps, resources for senior Saints. Hundreds of Hotlinks, a top-25 list, and a list of honorable mentions. Did you make the list? Order your copy of Mormons on the Internet 2000 at . --------- Have an LDS Internet resource? Post it to the Mormons on the Internet submission site. It's easy! Just find your category, and submit your resource. It'll appear on the site almost immediately! . --------- Visit our Web site at - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 30 Jun 2001 01:56:47 -0600 Jeff Savage wrote: > Maybe you are reading me wrong here. > I just don't think that good (and here I > am using good in the quality sense, not the moral one) LDS writers need to > have profanity or explicit sexual encounters in their books. > But I am saying that I don't need to know > what position my protagonist favors to understand that he/she is sexually > active. > But that doesn't mean that I would encourage my > teens to be sexually active before they are married. > But I don't think that any Mormon literature needs to have > graphic sex scenes or profanity to be good. The problem may not be that we disagree. It appears the problem is that you're assuming an either/or approach. Either literature must be squeaky clean or pornographic. What about that huge spectrum in between? Why, whenever I campaign for the right to place sex in my stories, do some people react like I said I want to put pornography into my stories? The very fact that this misinterpretation takes place is what bothers me. It shows that these people _do_ think sex is always pornographic. Sex is not pornographic! Those who assume it is are the problem, in my opinion, not those who want to address sex responsibly in their literature. Notice how your descriptions of sex in literature are extreme: "explicit sexual encounters," "encourage teens to be sexually active," "graphic sex scenes." I never used these phrases. I encourage as much detail as necessary and no more. Sometimes that will be no sex at all. Sometimes very vague references to a person's sexual activity. Sometimes mentioning a specific act without going into detail. And sometimes a story will require some details about a sexual act or the arousal a character feels because of a sexual act. If the story requires it, the author should report these details--without fanfare, without more graphic imagery than necessary, without any attempt to titillate the reader--and not feel bad about doing it. I don't want to publish pornography to the LDS market. I just want to be able to address sex when necessary. But the LDS market seems to only allow me squeaky clean stories. As more and more examples are given of how Covenant and other publishers are releasing more and more challenging stories about the realities of life, it just makes the absence of sex and sex alone all the more glaring. Why sex, of all the sins? Sex isn't even a sin much of the time--unlike for example, murder or beating the scrud out of somebody--but we still can't talk about it except in vague euphemisms and hints. I'm convinced this situation exists because Mormons deep down _do_ believe sex is dirty, although they may not admit it, even to themselves. And I think that's awful. I refuse to cater to the attitude. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amelia Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 30 Sep 2001 02:02:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Jeff Savage wrote: > Amen sister. Challenge me, stop me, make me think, question, ponder, and if > you are really good, maybe even change. But don't tell me that I have to > know the details of Dick and Jane's sex life or have every other word out of > their mouth be four-letters to do it. Are you really suggesting that if a > book doesn't include explicit sex or profanity it can't be deep? Jeff, I'm interested to know which part of my post asked for explicit sex and/or use of profanity in literature in order to make it deep. What I am looking for is reality--an accurate depiction of real people. I am not looking for an inaccurate depiction of real people which is what I get when I read about someone who may, in reality, swear but who is never recorded swearing in the artistic representation of their life. I am also looking for the lattitude to create a work of art which may depict a "sinful" sexual encounter (rather than just allude to it in passing) with enough detail that the reader can understand the simultaneity of joy and sorrow experienced because of sin (and, no, I am not talking about pleasure or passing happiness and sorrow; I'm talking about JOY and sorrow). I'm asking for the freedom for a writer to create complex characters in complex situations. Absolutely, this can be done without sex and without profanity. I've seen movies and I've read books that accomplish that, excellent movies and books. But the issue at hand has less to do with sex and drugs and profanity and violence per se than it does with the chance to depict those things when necessary in order to maintain artistic and, I would argue, moral integrity. > > >And, I hope I am > >correct here, the desire for a midstream Mormon publishing house is not a > >desire to sell thousands and thousands of books to a wide Mormon audience > >in order to make money but rather a desire for a way of publishing the > >kind of art I spoke of above. > > The publisher that doesn't make a profit on it's books is not going to be > able to publish very many books. (Unless it is owned by someone who is > willing to back it herself.) The publishers that print Stephen King's books > also take chances on less mainstream books. But they can afford to because > they make it up on the big sellers. If a publisher barely makes a profit on > its mainstream books, how many chancy books is it going to try. (And how > many really promising new writers will it take a chance on?) Understood: publishing is essentially a commercial enterprise, not necessarily an artistic one. I've been meaning to comment on this for a few days but everyone else seems to have done so very nicely so I haven't. But here goes my two bits: of course a publisher must make a profit of some sort--something to at least allow them to meet the costs of the business and of maintaining their own lives. What I see in the list, at least hinted at and in places articulated, is the need for a co-op. Mormons tend to be a bit scared of that idea sometimes but I'm not. What's to keep us from taking D. Michael's research about POD's seriously? Why shouldn't list members who are, while all busy people, well-educated and capable of helping edit new books offer to do so? I would. Together we could publish novels and poetry and stories and essays. Sure the output would be small. Sure it's a sacrifice. but I guess this is where we decide how important it is. Do we continue to sit here knowing that there are people capable of writing excellent work, people who probably do write excellent work, but can't publish it because there's no forum? Or do we do something about it? Time for some action. I know, I'm being my normal idealistic dreaming self, but it takes some of us in order to keep the ultra-realist pragmatic types from ruling the world. Another thought, there are plenty of publishing markets that are small. the books created for such markets are generally more expensive than what you'll find in the average reader's library. I'm thinking of academic markets and of poetry markets. Niche markets. It is, as several others have said, a matter of marketing the product correctly. It is a matter of being willing ourselves to pay thirty bucks instead of fifteen in order to have the privilege and experience of reading something that could actually change our lives rather than have us frustrated with wasting our time on drivel. Or even of being willing to have a book co-op; you know like books used to be a hundred years ago or more. They were passed around to everyone and their dog because they were too expensive for everyone to buy. So we only run a print of say a few hundred books. But we do so with the understanding that when we finish reading the book we pass it on. I don't know, a literary law of consecration. By the way, lots of authors used to not rely upon publishing their books in order to make a living. But now I'm getting off track. > > >When the Mormon literature available creates a > >dichotomy between acceptable Mormon problems (any problem you can point to > >in a Jack Weyland novel) and unacceptable because un-Mormon problems (more > >than incidental sex, drug addiction, the kind of hypocrisy that comes with > >calling ourselves a chosen people which results in drawing lines of > >love--those we will love and those we won't, etc.), then there is a > >serious problem. > > Have you ever read a Jack Weyland novel? I did a quick scan on his themes > over the Internet and came up with, bulimia, drug use, a girl disfigured by > burns, immorality, & drug use. Yeah, I have read a Jack Weyland novel or ten, though the last time I did so was probably ten years ago. And you're right: he does deal with some heavy issues (by the way, the romance plots I summarized in my post both came from Weyland novels). However, when was the last time that you read a Jack Weyland novel that ended with the heroine who has struggled with bulimia throughout her high school years leaving home still struggling with it? Or when did you read one that acknowledged that sometimes a priesthood blessing isn't enough to heal someone or to help someone overcome drug addiction and then accurately show slipping faith rather than a point blank acceptance of the "failure" of the priesthood as a manifestation of the will of God? The point is that Weyland, along with a lot of other Mormon writers, uses his novels/writing in order to reaffirm and only to reaffirm. I think that I would be incapable of finding a Jack Weyland novel, even if I were to read every one of them, that left me questioning anything other than why it is Mormon's can't deal with the fact that they are just like the rest of the world--that we are part of the world every bit as much as others are. > I honestly believe that LDS publishers are much more open to these types of > themes than they were ten years ago. I think what is missing is for more > writers that are good enough to get published in the "outside' world to > write for these publishers, and as I stated earlier, I think that a big part > of this is economics. Maybe you're right about this. Unfortunately, there's so much unprovocative Mormon lit being published that I usually don't deem it worth my time to wade through it in order to find something decently worthwhile. It's one of the reasons that I'm glad I have a friend who turned me onto this list. I've actually found a way to figure out what is worth reading. And now maybe I'll be more willing to give some of the lit published by the companies you're talking about a chance and send some reviews to the list. One problem with what you're suggesting above is a problem I've seen discussed on this list in the last week. Why would any author who is good enough to have his work published in the "outside" publishing world come to a Mormon publisher who will make him remove four-letter words, anything resembling explicit sex, and other things not nearly as bad as these (like the word "pee", to use an example posted to the list)? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be willing to watch my work be adulterated that way. Stylistic suggestions and grammar corrections are one thing; watering down my reality in order to make it palatable is another. I'd rather publish with an "outside" firm who would let me represent the reality I see. I said this in my former post and I'll say it again: I am interested in reading literature that can help me figure out how to navigate the intersection of being both Mormon and American, of living within a very patriarchal religion while being a staunch feminist, of the ideal presented by Mormonism and my own humanity. I am not interested in reading something that, while it may address a problem or two that I will encounter both in Mormonism and in the world, ultimately pats me on the back and tells me what a good girl I am. I can get that kind of affirmation from my mother when I need it. I'm not asking for the Church itself to publish such literature. But I am asking that the opportunity be there for an author to write such literature and then not be immediately questioned simply because the heroine of his novel is both an adulteress and a warm, kind, loving, lovable woman. Is it possible to show how sin and being Christlike can simultaneously be a part of our lives? [Amelia Parkin] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 30 Jun 2001 02:03:43 -0600 mjames_laurel wrote: > I think we're going a little far when we extrapolate from this > administrative policy decision that the General Authorities are denouncing > fiction. And I think we're making a far too sweeping generalization when we > assume they'd have any objection to a non-church subsidized effort to make a > different type of literature available to the LDS market. I don't think anyone here believes the General Authorities are against fiction. We're afraid members of the church will interpret their decision as an indication that they are against fiction. The evidence is already showing up that members will interpret it that way! -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 30 Jun 2001 07:32:26 -0600 Personally, I think having iUniverse print books for Irreantum would be a mistake. I don't think anyone has much respect for books that are printed as cheaply as possible. Besides, iUniverse keeps the bulk of the revenues generated by the sale of the book. Only a percentage goes to the author. That fine for the first book, but if there is going to be a second there must be greater rewards than a persentage. Beside, why would an author go to Irreantum book if all they are going to do is go to iUniverse? Why shouldn't he go to iUniverse himself? Raising seed money for the project should be no problem. If everyone contributed five bucks . . . what are there? four or five billion people in the world? That's more than enough. [Paris Anderson] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Where to Advertise? Date: 30 Jun 2001 11:01:47 -0600 Have fun on your vacation, Terry! The whole reason the church doesn't advertise in periodicals is a legal one. Years ago they did, but sometime in the 60s (I think, or 50s) they stopped because the U.S. legislature ruled they would no longer have CHURCH status (taxes, etc.) but be considered a commercial organization. I was crestfallen, too, loving the book advertisements. Anyway, that's the reason. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: [AML] re: Fiction in Church Mags (was: Institutional Art) Date: 29 Jun 2001 18:05:36 -0600 On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:29:07 -0700, Elizabeth Hatch wrote: >Jacob Proffitt wrote: > >> Melissa had a conversation recently where her Church superior (i.e. >> Primary President) actually *said* that "there must be something wrong >> with fiction if the brethren removed it from the Friend." =20 > >Boy, we knew that was coming! It brings back nightmare memories of that= =20 >Young Women president in Utah who told her Young Women that reading=20 >fiction was wrong. Yikes!! I told Jacob I reserved the right to correct him on this if it was = brought up again...so I will. I am the Primary chorister, which proves that God has a sense of humor. = Of the WEEKLY meetings the Primary presidency holds, I only have to attend = one of them a month. I have no idea what they find to talk about the rest of the time. At any rate, last Wednesday was that meeting. As background, I should say that we use the Friend extensively as a = teaching resource. The question of whether or not it contains fiction is in this absolute sense irrelevant, because what we're looking at is the page of Sharing Time Ideas printed in very small letters somewhere in the = magazine. But this is what started the discussion. When everyone pulled out their magazines, I remembered 1) they stopped sending it to me this month, probably because I hadn't paid for it, so I didn't have mine; and 2) the thing about No More Fiction. So I asked if anyone had heard about this. They hadn't; sure enough, there's no fiction in the July issue. I = expressed my disappointment and concern that this decision might have been prompted= by an editorial distrust of fiction. This is something that as far as I know has not yet been mentioned in = this discussion. In the past few years, the articles and stories that appear = in the Friend have been labeled according to type: fiction, "based on a true story," etc. This is how it is possible to flip quickly through the magazine and see whether or not there is any fiction in it. I found this trend VERY disturbing. What's the purpose of this labeling? Why would = they need to explain "this story about a girl befriending a handicapped person really happened, but this almost identical story is fiction"? There has also been an increased emphasis on the True Stories; in addition to the monthly highlight of a family from around the world, there is a section called "Trying to Be Like Jesus" or something like that, which contains short anecdotes of children who have met challenges by following gospel principles. As far as I can tell, the sole appeal of these anecdotes--I can't call them stories--is that they Really Happened. To Real People. = In Real Life. In other words, stories that really happened are more = valuable than the made-up kind. And the decision to stop printing fiction didn't happen as quickly as it seemed; I think it's been coming for a long time now. So basically I said that while it didn't ultimately bother me if they = chose to print more doctrine from the GA's, more pioneer stories, or other non-fiction instead of fiction, I was worried about the possible anti-fiction motive and what it said about people's general = misunderstanding of what fiction is *for*. Here is a summary of the Primary president's various responses as I tried to express this opinion: 1. Of course we want real-life stories; the Gospel teaches we should = seek after truth. 2. There must be a difference if the General Authorities say so. 3. Well, if the General Authorities want to stop publishing fiction, I'm not going to argue. I have never been left speechless by illogic before. She never actually said there was anything wrong with fiction, but the implication was there. Jacob stated it in stronger terms because he is = more concerned about that next logical leap than with unquestioning = acceptance. I don't entirely agree with Jacob on this. I don't think very many = people will *change* their minds and decide that fiction is bad based on this editorial stance (though there will probably be some). In fact, I think this might be a subtle enough difference that few readers will even = notice that the Friend doesn't print fiction anymore, at least at first. I do think there are far too many people who will eventually use it to support their existing biases against fiction, and an annoying majority of those will proclaim it in Relief Society as doctrine. For which I am grateful that I'm in the Primary. In any case, sure, I'd buy a magazine containing the kind of children's short fiction the Friend used to publish. But I don't believe for one second that it would receive enough support from the Mormon community to stay afloat. If it lacks the Church's stamp of approval, many members = won't trust it. Besides, if it were really good, the General Authorities would say so. Melissa Proffitt (who would have ended that last sentence with a smiley if it didn't hurt = so much) [MOD: From a later post:] About whether there is fiction in the July issue of the Friend: I said = that I didn't have a copy and that the Primary president looked through it and didn't see any fiction. I got a copy yesterday and was reading it this morning with my child, and discovered that there actually is one piece of fiction in it. My mistake. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 30 Jun 2001 11:13:44 -0600 Interesting, Paris! Do you have any distribution? Marilyn Brown > Paris Anderson parisander@freeport.com wrote: > > Wow--I've been trying to get on this liist for a week and what I finally get > on--boom--the first message is about small time publishing . . . THAT'S MY > GIG, MAN! That's what I do! I'm a stay-at-home dad and a massage > therapist, and in my free time (which isn't nearly enough) I print and > hand-bind (hardcover) my own stuff.. With a hardcover the finished product > is too expensive to sell in bookstores, but you can docutech the books and > have them done in a soft cover with a perfect bind--just like most books in > a bookstore. I'm doing a children's chapter book about the Mormon Battalion > that way, It's coming out this summer (Thank heaven for credit cards). - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Brady Udall's New Novel Looks at an Indian in Mormondom: Salt Lake Tribune Date: 30 Jun 2001 11:17:07 -0600 Brady writes: "It's high time somebody out there, if not me, wrote about Mormons in a real and honest way." I haven't read the book, but I can guess. And it really scares me. You CAN'T write about the good Mormons. It's boring and sappy. So the question is WHAT'S REAL? Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randall Larsen" Subject: [AML] Re: TAYLOR, _Nightfall at Nauvoo_ (was: GAs in Church Pubs) Date: 30 Jun 2001 07:08:01 -1000 Ivan, GA's in pubs is not a rumour to add to our collecton of "faith promoting rumours". The prophet Joseph stopped for a pint a Mossers grocery in Nauvoo on at least one ocassion [see Joseph's Paper's Vol I] Cakes and beer used to be served at church parties in Nauvoo. [the word of wisdom didn't include beer in those days]. I will note for the record that the Prophet Joseph's Nauvoo mansion had a full bar until Emma made Joseph remove it. A fictionalized account of this event is in Sam Taylor's Nightfall at Nauvoo. What do listmembers think of this work? all the best in fiction and non-fiction, Randall Larsen ----- Original Message ----- > The title worries me - has the church started endorsing the consumption of > alchohol, since we are apparently spotting GAs in apparently church owned pubs? > (I though the rumors about owning Coke and Pepsi were crazy - but the church > owns pubs?) > > ;) > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: Re: [AML] Literary LCD Date: 30 Jun 2001 12:51:17 -0700 D. Michael replied to me as follows: > > The gamut of human degradation? Don't you mean the gamut of human > > experience? > > No, because we already have LDS publishers who are willing to depict > that gamut of human niceness. Add the two together and you get all of > human experience. Okay, I understand what you mean. However, I'm not sure that a writer should limit himself or herself by specializing in stories which depict the "gamut of human degradation." But even if I'm wrong about that, I feel more strongly that this kind of niche marketing is the wrong approach for a Mormon publisher to take. I'll elaborate more on this later, but I think a "midstream Mormon publisher" should try to publish a wide range of books, not a narrow range. I wonder why, when we talk about addressing "serious" matters in Mormon literature, some people immediately bring up sexual degradation. I'm not trying to insult any of you, but is there a voyeuristic component in some people's call for an "edgier" Mormon fiction? I think there are lots of serious matters that could be addressed in Mormon lit, which do not fall under the category of "degradation". In an elders quorum lesson I just gave, I asked the group to help me list on the board the kinds of trials and tribulations that had occurred to people whom they personally knew in their families or in the ward. In addition to job loss, family problems, and converts being persecuted by their non-LDS relatives, there were several cases of deaths from cancer or other tragic accidents. Are these matters serious enough for Mormon literature to address? But if I really wanted to read about human degradation, I'd start looking up reports from Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch. The Job-like sufferings of innocent victims around the world seem much more significant to me than the imaginary sexual hangups of fictional Wasatch Frontians. Perhaps if Mormon literature is to become truly mature, it should stop looking inward at its own emotional and psychological troubles, and start looking outward at the world that surrounds it. Regards, Frank Maxwell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Jennie HANSEN, _Macady_ (Review) Date: 30 Jun 2001 10:47:55 -0700 Thanks for submitting this. I enjoyed your point of view very much. I've adopted something of a George Bush-type attitude toward Mormon fiction. You don't expect much, and you're surprised when the author does well. You make good points, but they didn't detract at all from my enjoyment of the book. I found the mentions of the now-departed characters to be important to the plot. Macady's ex-fiance, for example, is an ongoing influence on how she behaves in various situations. Thanks for the good thoughts. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 12:18 PM > I read Jeff Needle's recent review of this book with interest. I read _Macady_ > a few years ago, and I remembered feeling differently about it. So I pulled > out my notes that I'd made on it, and I thought it would be fun to post my own > review on it. (Note to Jeff and Barbara (Hume): This is not meant to > discredit your positive comments on the book!) > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 30 Jun 2001 02:22:55 -0600 Brown wrote: > There are a lot of people who start up publishing companies because they > want to do it their way. They either want to "express themselves" or make a > lot of money. It's not that easy. > Hopefully you can see the wisdom in BUILDING UP some struggling entity > rather than feeling "it's got to be your way." I'm all for doing that, as long as we can find an existing entity who will do it, and do it right, not halfheartedly. I'm wondering if the existing entity might not have to create a new imprint, however, for the "black sheep of the family" midstream stuff, like Disney uses Touchstone and Hollywood Films. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 30 Jun 2001 18:38:02 -0600 D. Michael Martindale wrote: >It's always distribution that gets in the way of good ideas. I think we >need to take a page form the Gospel According to Richard Dutcher and >figure out a way to bypass the traditional distributioon channels. It's >easier to drag a spaghetti noodle with than to push it ahead of you. I'm working on an end-around process that I hope will work. Part of the problem is that I suspect there will end up being several midstream publishers, because there are quite a few different visions of exactly what that market constitutes. Here's my take on it. I've been talking with my friend and local author Russell W. Asplund about creating a new online magazine devoted to expanding the definition of Mormon literature, and facilitating an environment where it can be discussed in the broad category of "Mormon studies." There are few rules about the kind of work we would like to offer, but these two requirements would underpin the concept: 1) There is a god, and he does care about what happens to us. 2) The Mormon religion is a valid spiritual mindset and its ultimate correctness is not a fair topic of discussion. The goal would be to create a magazine of fiction and criticism that brought both Mormons and non-Mormons together to discuss the literary phenomenon of Mormon fiction, not the cultural or doctrinal validity of the church. Just as a study of the Jewish or Catholic literature fails to focus on the ultimate truth of either of those religions. Accept that the characters believe in it, and move on the literary discussion. My personal bias with fiction would be towards stories with high literary values (aka, well written and presented) that focused on human issues explored from within a Mormon mindset but not necessarily from within a heavily Mormon cultural setting, and told from a "faithful" perspective. There would be few guidelines regarding explicit language, sex, or other content except that all elements have value within the story and are offered to deepen the story, not titillate the silly-minded. Such fiction could range from stories that never offer a single explicitly Mormon element to stories that are set fully within a Mormon cultural setting. The coordinating elements are the Mormonness of either the author of the subject matter. Personally, I believe that the time has come to write more stories containing explicitly Mormon elements, but that are not about "The Church." There is much of the spiritual minds of Mormons that I think will have interest to a limited national audience--maybe not bestseller stuff, but enough to create and feed a niche market. Mormon publishers need not be our only outlets, though I would like to see them expand their offerings and their target audience to reach outside the Mormon community. (What I'd really like to see is an imprint from DB or Covenant devoted to this "midstream" concept, and I would like to become an acquisitions editor for that line. DB thinks it's done that with their Shadow Mountain line, but you have to be a pretty much guaranteed big seller to even touch it; it's not accessible to most of us ordinary types.) Once this new online literary magazine had been in existence for a little while, I would hope to collect an anthology of short fiction from it and present it to an existing Mormon publisher as a proven quantity with a known national appeal. I would hope that such a venture would help validate a larger market for Mormon fiction and help expand our own home market. >I was very eager to read _Disoriented_ when it came out, specifically >because it was an LDS science fiction book. So there's your existence >proof of the market. I think the market is known to exist, but what can we do to expand it so that titles like this reach a larger audience? Right now I suspect the numbers are pretty small, and lie on the borderline of acceptable return. We need to do more to develop the reading public as well as provide more outlets for different kinds of stories. >"The Orson Scott Card Book Club of LDS Science Fiction." Card's own efforts to build something like this have been sporadic and of limited success so far. If he'll licence his name to someone with more passion to create an LDSF market, I think it could work. And while this is only one person's opinion, I would also like to see such a market develop independent of Card. He creates an awfully deep wake for the rest of us to follow in, and his powerful persona tends to limit what people try to do. IMO. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS and World Religions Date: 21 Jun 2001 17:16:31 -0500 > > Also that only 1 in 7 LDS live in the United States. Interesting. Is > anyone aware if there is "LDS literature" other than offical church > publications in any country other than the US? > > Just wondering, > > Steve > I live in Canada, and there isn't any LDS publishing here that I know of. And I haven't seen an LDS book that comes from anywhere but the states. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Manipulative Endings Date: 21 Jun 2001 17:25:27 -0500 > > I write about bad people and try to help the audience *understand* them. Well that's fine. But what's wrong with writing about good people. They're interesting too. > > > > But, to bring this back to a literary angle. It is so stultifyingly > easy to make a Mormon audience cry that the display of tears during a > play or book is hardly a sign that the Spirit is also present. But it doesn't mean that the Spirit isn't present either. And the spirit could be present for one person crying and not for another person crying. They could be watching the same thing and be crying for different reasons. The Spirit doesn't always present himself to the whole, more often he presents himself to individuals. And often that happens when their hearts are opened up. If you're heart is soft because of something that you're watching, the Spirit can take that moment and use it to whisper something to you. Who's to say that the way you experience the spirit is the way someone else does? And just because the Spirit is not whispering to you doesn't mean he's not whispering to someone else. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis Manning" Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 01 Jul 2001 20:02:32 -0600 Craig-- That's it: Ebooks! An LDS online fiction library -- written by us, members of AML, and other future members. Or, just Members. We could start out submitting books, short stories, poems even, critiqued by AML members perhaps. But how do we advertise for Ebooks? How do we get people to read Ebooks? Who would hold the copyrights? Answer: The AML, a non-profit organization that could "use" these texts however they see fit, electronically or in hard copy form? Hmm. Intriguing. Perhaps you could market Ebooks by creating deals with LDS booksellers whereby they receive a free Ebook with the purchase of another book, whatever that may be (by one, get one free, online, ready to download into a palm pilot, or even a book read online, akin to the books-on-tape idea where online books will not only sell the text, but also the spoken performed version for consuming by the audio listener. Hmm. Audio listeners. You know, my wife belongs to a book club and several of the ladies in her group really enjoy books on tape. Listening to audio books is great for LDS women because they can do it while doing dishes, while nursing a child, gardening, driving kids to soccer, und so weiter. Hmm. Our first Ebook audience niche? Just some thoughts. Travis Manning *************** >From: Craig Huls >3. Paper is never going to go away, but please realize that the digital age >is taking over in many arenas. I have been involved in computer science >since we wired boards to take impulses from one counter to another. E-books >are not moving as fast as the Industry wants, but they will. I sit in PEC >meeting and all but the Bishop has a PDA (Palm Pilot or a look alike) going >as the meeting is progressing. One HP in my group flips to chapter and >verse on his PDA faster than we can find it in the scriptures, soon it will >speak to you too! In fact does for the right amount of $. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis Manning" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Re: _Testament_ Date: 02 Jul 2001 18:03:08 -0500 Eric Snider wrote: > > >Apparently, I need to go see this "Testaments" thing. I've been putting it >off for a while because of the reasons that have been discussed on this >List: It seems like it's probably a bit manipulative, hokey, or whatever >else, though probably rather touching, too. I don't look forward to it, and >since no one's MAKING me watch it, I haven't done it yet. Eric, The film touches some, not others. It touched me in places, in some places it did not. I did think it was cool to have BoM characters on the big screen. All I really know about BoM characters from a visual sense is those Living Scriptures videos and this cartoon-depicted book I read as a kid. But I want to see Enos, man. He's pretty cool. And Alma the Younger. What about Samuel the Lamanite, Ammon, Abinadi, Moroni -- live, on stage or in film? All studs! > > For all you playwrights and musical-ites (and all other manner of artistic "ites") out there: We've got "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat" making it on and off Broadway . . . but what about "Nephi and His Amazing Journey to America?" Or, "Alma the Younger and his Brush with Death," or, "Ammon and his Amazing Sword." Somebody stop me! Or, or, I'll just stop myself. I guess we have the "Hill Cumorah Pageant" and the "Manti Pageant" and other manner of pageants that depict BoM characters, but let's see some plays/musicals/screenplays that really develop the characters of these men and women of the BoM. > > Eric, I'm officially MAKING you watch "Testaments!" Besides, if you never go see it on the big screen, the Church will replace it with something else in a few years and you'll have to watch it eventually on video or DVD -- on the "small screen." Another "besides," if you don't see it, we will be missing your masterful critique of it! If we don't critique stuff now, who will help make our church films "better"? You got to see it. > > Travis K. Manning "Men and women die; philosophers falter in wisdom, and Christians in goodness: if any one you know has suffered and erred, let him look higher than his equals for strength to amend, and solace to heal." (Jane Eyre) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] UDALL, "The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint" (Deseret News) Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:06:45 -0000 Deseret News, Sunday, July 01, 2001 Udall finds writing a magical process By Dennis Lythgoe Deseret News book editor Born into the political Udall Arizona clan (his great-uncles are Stewart and Morris Udall), Brady Udall chose quite a different direction. Not that he had any idea growing up on a farm in St. Johns that he would be a writer =97 but he knew he didn't want to farm. "I wanted to sit in a room with air conditioning and type on a computer," Udall said during an interview in the Deseret News offices. "So I went to BYU and declared myself a sociology major and indicated I was going to do something important with my life." For the first time, he was surrounded by writers =97 Darrell Spencer, John Bennion and Bruce Jorgensen, among others. That was when he first considered make a living writing. Following graduation, Udall attended the celebrated Writer's Workshop at the University of Iowa, said to be the best in the country, where he was awarded a master of fine arts degree. Udall said it didn't add significantly to his education "because I learned everything I needed at BYU." Udall was "discovered" as a writer at Salt Lake City's own Writers at Work program. Carol Houck Smith, an editor for Norton's, was given a sample of Udall's work =97 a short story. "She called me and I thought it was just some crazy lady who read one of my stories. I kept trying to hang up. Finally, I heard her name, and she said to send her some more stories. About a month later, she offered me a book contract on the basis of three stories." Udall is the father of two young sons, and his wife is expecting. For three years he has taught writing at Franklin and Marshall College in Pennsylvania, but he recently accepted a position with Southern Illinois University, which will begin in the fall. "The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint," Udall's novel, focuses on a young Apache boy whose head is run over by a mailman. "This actually happened to my wife's ex-boyfriend. She was seeing him at the same time she was seeing me. She finally broke up with him. I was curious about this guy, because he was presumed dead, and the mailman had a breakdown and disappeared. I was intrigued by this. I went to this guy's apartment and he told me the whole story. I knew I would write a book about that." Udall grew up only 50 miles from the San Carlos Indian Reservation, where=20 there was a boarding school. "While in junior high, I went to this school to play a football game on the parade grounds. It's the old Fort Apache. It made a deep impression on me. These kids were orphans or castaways. We beat them badly, and afterward they began pelting our bus with bricks. I looked up and saw one boy looking at me, and I could see he hated me, and I didn't know why. I knew I'd write a story about it." Edgar Mint, the little Apache boy who was run over by a mailman, became=20 Udall's central character. His life as an orphan is grim, but a series of miracles keep saving him. Except for the common geography, Udall is not being autobiographical. "I grew up in a stable, loving home. Too many writers believe that writing is a way of talking about yourself. To me it's a way of imagining the opposite of myself, to step in a stranger's shoes and try to understand their world. That's what excites me. To write about me and my experience bores me." While some writers outline their entire story before they start to write, Udall resists rigid programming. "My outline was, 'Boy gets run over by mailman. At the end, he finds mailman. Maybe he doesn't. What happens in the middle? I don't know.' "The way I think of writing a novel is you just keep gathering things and putting them in a bag. Then some things don't fit, so you pull them out. One day you open it up and a rabbit comes out. It's sort of magical. Things just start to come together. I'm not sure how it happens. Supposedly, since I've written one novel, I should be able to write another one =97 but it seems just as daunting as before." When Udall neared the end of writing his novel, it came to him what would happen. "That was great. I'd write from midnight to 8 a.m. some nights. You know it's going well when you're thinking about it all the time =97 in the shower or driving somewhere =97 instead of thinking about your bills or your car problems, you're thinking about this little imaginary kid and what he's going through." Udall wrote 400-500 pages in the first couple of years but threw away the first 400 pages. "I was trying to figure out how to do it. I'd never written a novel before. Then I wrote the last 250 pages in three months." Generally, Udall writes from midnight to 3 or 4 a.m. Teaching and family takes up the rest of his time. Some critics have said his work reminds them of Charles Dickens, but Udall scoffs at that. "There's an orphan in it =97 and the way the plot ends, it could seem like 'Great Expectations' because something is revealed. "It was really Mark Twain who influenced me, because he had the ability to= =20 be funny and profound. Writers who are funny are considered shallow. Most of the time comedy is considered a low art. But=20 Twain's art was of a very high order." Although a practicing Mormon, Udall does not consider himself a "Mormon=20 writer." "I would never write a book that was meant exclusively for Mormons.= =20 Mormonism is only one aspect of this book." Udall describes his writing like this: "It's like driving really fast on a road you've never been on before, but you make it. You go off the edge sometimes, and maybe you blow a tire, but you get there. It's making decisions on the run. Sometimes, you go down the wrong road. You have to fix things and make it right. If the writer is surprised, the reader will be, too." Udall knows he will create some controversy. He doesn't mind. "I hope it arouses interest or even passion in people. The fact that I use Native American characters is politically incorrect, so some people will get upset about that. Things are brutal at the school he goes to. The book is about poverty. It is not about race. It's about dislocation." The Mormon family he depicts has problems, but it is not dysfunctional.=20 "They're normal. They have secrets and regrets. In our Mormon culture, we're a little afraid of letting people of the world know that. Their problems come from the loss of their child, but they're very strong, good people." Udall deals with moral issues and violence constantly. "We forget about the violence that occurs sometimes in supposedly normal situations. My grandmother said, 'I wish you wouldn't use all those bad words.' But to be true to the people I'm portraying, I have to use bad words, and even depict evil, because it's there. We have to be mature enough to know when something is true despite=20 being difficult." E-mail: dennis@desnews.com =A9 2001 Deseret News Publishing Company _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] UDALL, _The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint_ (DN review) Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:13:14 -0000 Deseret News, Sunday, July 01, 2001 'Mint' orphan's tale has humor, realism By Dennis Lythgoe Deseret News book editor THE MIRACLE LIFE OF EDGAR MINT; by Brady Udall; Norton, 423 pages; $24.95. The first comparison that comes to mind is Mark Twain telling the classic story of "Huckleberry Finn." The second is J. D. Salinger, who wrote "Catcher in the Rye," published in 1951, the quirky and= =20 honest story of a young man named Holden Caulfield. Let's hope the strange and imaginative story of "The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint," Brady Udall's first book, is not his last. Udall has an unmistakable gift for language, wit and a rich imagination that= =20 should make him a highly acclaimed novelist for years to come. The book is the sad story of Edgar Mint, the son of an Apache teenager and a wannabe cowboy from Connecticut who is destined to end up an orphan =97 an abused orphan, by just about everybody he encounters. The defining moment of his life is getting his head smashed at the age of 7 by a mailman's truck. Left for dead by family and others on the reservation, Edgar's life is miraculously saved by an unorthodox doctor named Barry Pinkley. After a lengthy hospitalization, during which it is discovered that the accident has left him with dysgraphia, the inability to write, he becomes addicted to the typewriter. Edgar is shunted to a miserable school, appropriately named for the bloody general of the Civil War, William Tecumseh Sherman. There, he endures unimaginable= =20 harassment, both emotional and physical, forcing him to sneak, spy and steal in return for protection. It is as if he is confined in a strange little prison. Surprisingly, he is rescued by Mormon missionaries who consider him a perfect match for the church's Indian placement program. With encouragement of the missionaries, Edgar repents of his sins and is baptized a Mormon. Then, he is sent to be part of the troubled Madsen family, which has taken in children since the tragic loss of a baby boy in a bizarre crib accident. At first, Edgar is deliriously happy sleeping in a soft, clean bed, enjoying a new wardrobe and eating a variety of wonderful food. But the teenage daughter and younger son are angry about his presence. Moreover, the death of the baby has made the parents terribly distant from each other. In the meantime, people who harassed Edgar in his early years refuse to disappear from his life, including the doctor-turned-con-artist-and-drug addict who saved his life when Edgar was 7. Besides, Edgar has never lost the incessant desire to find the mailman who ran over his head and tell him he is "all right." When he leaves the Madsen family, Edgar continues on that intriguing quest, until it leads to fruition. In some circles, this book may seem controversial =97 for its depiction of American Indian culture, for various acts of violence inflicted on Edgar or even for the portrayal of an imperfect Mormon family that takes Edgar in. Some may wish the occasionally graphic language had been left out. But Udall is writing real life here. Most readers are likely to find a fascinating tale of a young boy facing unusual vicissitudes, told by a truly gifted storyteller. Udall deals with realism mixed generously with humor. One of the funniest incidents in the book describes two men from Edgar's=20 past posing as Mormon missionaries so they can get into his new Mormon home to see him. The central beauty of the book is that tragedy and humor are so naturally intertwined =97 just as they are in real life. E-mail: dennis@desnews.com =A9 2001 Deseret News Publishing Company _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] _Peculiarities_ Tonight? Date: 02 Jul 2001 09:58:51 -0600 We--meaning the Playwright's Circle--were going to stage Peculiarities at = UVSC, but for various reasons, mostly having to do with my being in = London, we weren't able to pull it off. We're going to stage it, I hope, = in Springville this fall. I sincerely apologize for any misleading = advertizing that may be out there.=20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: [AML] Re: Fiction in Church Mags (was: Institutional Art) Date: 02 Jul 2001 09:22:15 -0600 Jacob Proffitt: > > By implementing a no fiction policy at Church magazines on the > > sly..., they imply things that they probably don't mean (that fiction > > is bad). James Picht: > I think that making the reason for the policy explicit is possible > only if the brethren can articulate it to themselves. Jacob: > > But then, explaining things is hard. And dangerous. Apparently there is an explanation out there. Frankly, I'm surprised none of us have heard it. I was explaining this all to a friend the other day and he said that in his ward a letter was read to them saying that the reason the fiction is being removed is that too many members are just unable to distinguish between fiction and reality when it comes to church publications. Too much fiction, apparently, is being quoted as doctrine, or near-doctrine from the pulpit. I think it's quite possible that the Brethren would really like to publish fiction because they know the value of it. President Kimball knew: The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball (P. 384.) "There is available a wide selection of books which will give development to the aesthetic and the cultural. Music, drama, poetry, fiction, and other cultural fields are available to everyone. The contributions come to us from great minds and great hearts and great sufferers and great thinkers. "In addition to all the serious study there should be time for just plain reading for pleasure. Here one needs assistance to select that which is pleasurable in a worthwhile way. There are countless works of fiction which help us to understand ourselves and others better, and to get real pleasure in the learning." Yet, how many times have we heard about the Steeds from the pulpit? How many Mormons are desperately trying to find a link to the Steeds in there genealogy? J. Scott Bronson -- Member of Playwrights Circle --- "The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent upon it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do." Galileo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: [AML] Magazine for Mormon Women Date: 02 Jul 2001 13:59:02 -0500 I think there's room for several different types of church magazines. = Not necessarily put out by the church. I think the reason why others have failed is because no one outside of = Utah knew about them. There's a whole world of English speaking Mormons = outside of Utah. =20 I find it sad that the church discontinued the RS magazine. And now = that the Ensign will be filled with mostly GA's, we will not hear = women's voices. There are many "women's" magazines out there. Offering advice on how to = have better sex with your boyfriend, showing models who are impossibly = thin, showcasing clothes that a temple wearing Mormon can not wear, = offering recipes that require alcohol, and suggesting that how we look = is more important than who we are. There is not a general magazine out = there for the Mormon woman. I don't want to see a doctrinal mag for LDS women. We already have the = Ensign that serves that purpose. What I would like to see is a magazine = that offers a lot of the same type of things that other women's = magazines do, but with an LDS bent. I want to see something that is = written by LDS women. Not just the ones in Utah, but women throughout = the world. The readers should be the contributers. Recipes for food storage, large families and low budgets. Crafts with LDS mottos, images, and artists. Fiction, poetry, humor, art and music from LDS women. Interviews with LDS women. Talks by the RS, Primary and YW leaders. Letters to the editor. Geneology, food storage, community service=20 News of LDS women around the world,=20 Personal stories Volunteer and charity efforts Book, movie, music, and computer program reviews Reports and talks from women's conference Someone may ask why women would need this when they already have Relief = Society. The truth is that most women don't get to go to Relief Society = on a regular basis. Some women will spend everyday taking care of = toddlers, come to church on Sunday, spend sacrament out in the hallway = with a little one who won't behave, then head down to the nursery where = she will spend two more hours with toddlers. She may not get to speak = to anyone other than to say hello. If she's lucky she might have = visiting teachers who come once a month and she might get to enrichment = night once a month. These women do an important job, but they are = invisible. Not every woman in RS lives in a community where everyone else is LDS. = She may be the only LDS woman in a community where every other woman = isn't home in the day. Some have to drive an hour to get to a church. = Often she may be far away from her relatives. Would a magazine solve these problems? No. But it might offer a = connection to other women out there. And sometimes it's helpful having = the instructions there in front of you than to just hear them at = enrichment night. It would also be neat to see what women outside of our little communitys = are doing, and showcasing these women's talents. Of course, this could be done on the net, but paper is more satisfying = and readable. I would start it myself if I could. But I have no money nor the no how = of how to start anything like this although I would be more than happy = to work on it if there was one. And ads? Sure it can have ads. As long as they're from reputable = companies and don't represent anything against LDS standards. Anna Wight=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:29:39 -0300 > The two cycles: 1) sexual repression - (goes to) - abnormal sexuality - (goes to) - sexual enphasy... SEX IS THE MAIN THEME 2) sexual education - (goes to) - normal sexuality - (goes to) - sexual as a normal part of the life - SEX HAS SPACE IN THE STORY BUT DOESN=B4T HAVE THE MAIN FOCUS.... i only think the kind of literature that follows the first cycle is boring, without creativity... But the market isn=B4t like me... People really buy Harold Robbins and Sidney Sheldon... ONLY MY OPINION Renato Rigo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] Electronic Publishing (was: Midstream Mormon Publisher) Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:44:31 -0300 > Every person I know that loves to read loves to have material books...shelves...etc ibooks is an easy way to send the book all over the world where you can=B4t have the material version of this book. I think classical books (from international literature) could be send by mail to the students all over the world mainly in some countries where people don=B4t have money to buy them. The habit of reading is developed during the school years. If you grow up reading good books you will love them and you want to keep them with you (your personal library) I noticed this is a list full of writers... I=B4m the only readers here :-) Am I? The opinion of a reader: Write them , PRint them, Sell the by the net, sometimes give them by the net... Renato - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kellene Adams Subject: Re: [AML] MN Brady Udall's New Novel Looks at an Indian in Date: 02 Jul 2001 17:05:40 -0600 Okay, I have to ask: Does > > I haven't read the book, but I can guess. And it really scares me. You CAN'T > write about the good Mormons. It's boring and sappy. So the question is > WHAT'S REAL? Marilyn Brown Okay, I have to ask (although it may just be redundant because it sort of ties into 90 percent of all the lines we have going on AML, so if it's redundant, please ignore the question): Why does writing about good Mormons have to be boring and sappy? I know a terribly good Mormon couple, married almost 40 years, dealt with lifelong chronic depression, a five-year bout with prescription drug abuse, one daughter who had a son out of wedlock, one son who had to get married, one son who is inactive, one son killed in a car accident, and on top of that, they are not the best two personality matches in the world (he's a control freak and she's a submissive, '50s, "leave it to Beaver" mother figure and marching into the '90s created havoc in their marriage as she began to discover that there was more to life than her little young children, who were no longer children, and he discovered that his strong personality actually crushed her more than helped her). However, the very foundation of their lives is their commitment to the gospel and their belief that somehow working through all that life has thrown them will be worthwhile in the end, and that working through it based on a strong belief in Jesus Christ is the best (and really only) way to work through it. To me there is nothing boring and sappy about their story at all. (Okay, maybe it could get a little sappy in the wrong hands because their absolute commitment/love is kind of inspiring. . . . ) But why do the stories of good Mormons have to be boring and sappy just because their view of life may be basis and simple? (Okay, now I'll just sit back and prepare for the onslaught. . . . I'm cringing as I push the send button) Kellene - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] _Testament_ Date: 02 Jul 2001 23:04:13 > >Eric Snider wrote: > > > > >Apparently, I need to go see this "Testaments" thing. I've been putting >it > >off for a while because of the reasons that have been discussed on this > >List: It seems like it's probably a bit manipulative, hokey, or whatever > >else, though probably rather touching, too. I don't look forward to it, >and > >since no one's MAKING me watch it, I haven't done it yet. > > Travis Manning: > > > >Eric, I'm officially MAKING you watch "Testaments!" Besides, if you never >go see it on the big screen, the Church will replace it with something else >in a few years and you'll have to watch it eventually on video or DVD -- on >the "small screen." Another "besides," if you don't see it, we will be >missing your masterful critique of it! If we don't critique stuff now, who >will help make our church films "better"? You got to see it. > > > Well, you've discovered one of two ways to get me to do something: flattery. (The other one is money.) I'll go see it, and I'll write about it, and then we'll all be sorry. Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Literary LCD Date: 02 Jul 2001 17:10:10 -0500 But isn't this already happening. Rachel Nunes wrote in her first Ariana book about a young woman who finds herself in an abusive drug addicted relationship. Yorgeson in Secrets wrote about various forms of abuse within a ward, including child sexual abuse. Broken Covenat, published by Deseret, is a book about the affects of adultery. The Work and The Glory showed one of the main characters as a wife beater. Weyland (although many people don't like him) deals with real issues all the time. Rape being one of them. In Children of the Promise, Hughes deals with blood, gore, starvation, rebellion, etc. Yes, I've read a few sappy "feel good" novels where the heroine has to severely repent because she's sexually attracted to a man, so she ends up moving back home. I read one short story in a book that was a lesson in whether you should kiss on the first date. In that same book was a lesson about how you should keep your apartment clean in case that special guy pops over. Yes it made me roll my eyes and say "oh brother". But those were older novels. Current LDS novels do recognize real problems and real issues. Fiction depicting real people making real mistakes is LDS literature. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] MN Brady Udall's New Novel Looks at an Indian in Mormondom: Date: 02 Jul 2001 17:11:48 -0600 Brown wrote: > > Brady writes: "It's high time somebody out there, if not me, wrote about > Mormons in a real and honest way." > > I haven't read the book, but I can guess. And it really scares me. You CAN'T > write about the good Mormons. It's boring and sappy. Good Mormons get divorced, remarried, or stay single. Good Mormons sin and repent. Good Mormons sin and don't repent, even. But let's say you don't want to go that far. What good Mormon doesn't have a wayward kin? Are good Mormons so totally isolated from the world that they don't know someone in the world. > So the question is > WHAT'S REAL? I would suggest that any combination of the above would be real. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Good News Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:15:22 EDT In a message dated 7/2/01 5:24:59 PM Central Daylight Time, eedh@emstar2.net writes: << I'm delighted to announce that my first picture book, HALLOWEEN SURPRISE, will be published by Doubleday Books for Young Readers, probably in the fall of 2003. It's an exciting time, with lots to learn. Right now I'm beginning to think about website designs and school/library presentations, and all the things that first-time authors must learn to do to sell, sell, sell those books! It's fun to get to share my news with all of you. :0) Beth/Elizabeth Hatch >> Congratulations, Beth: I was at a Western Writers of America conf. at Idaho Falls and several writers said they hit the conventions, super markets, and even airports to push their books. One writer said he sold 600 in one week end at some really weird conf. Basically, they said the writer spent about as much time promoting as writing. I don't know if this will be the news you wanted to hear. I have discovered that book signings are not that great as a rule. However, my book on young pioneers was the best seller at the Barnes & Noble book signing at Idaho Falls, and I was competing with 70 other writers, some of them famous western writers. Last year it sold well at the Oregon\Ca. Trails meeting. It depends a lot on the group. Good luck, Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KGrant100@aol.com Subject: [AML] Dramatizing the Joseph Smith Story Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:18:23 EDT Frank Maxwell writes: >I would suggest 2 other ways to cinematize the First Vision: >1.=A0 =A0 Dramatize the Vision in a way which includes details from all of >Joseph's written accounts (none of which contradict each other, by the >way).=A0 James Arrington did this orally for a conference of the Mormon >History Association years ago, when they met in the Kirtland Temple.=A0 I >think his "combined" account of the First Vision was published in Dialogue. >This version would include both Deities, and angels, and everything else >that Joseph described. >2.=A0 =A0 Dramatize each of his accounts in flashback format, but in a way=20= that >tantalizes the audience into wanting to see the next flashback.=A0 For >instance, start off when he's writing down in his personal journal his >earliest account of the Vision, the one in which he writes that Jesus told >him that he is forgiven of his sins.*=A0 Then show a quick flashback of tha= t >part of the Vision experience.=A0 Then let the movie go forward with other >parts of Joseph's life until it chronologically gets to the point where he >wrote or told his next account of the vision.=A0 Then show more.=A0 By the=20= time >the movie gets to 1838, the audience would be intensely interested in what >really happened back there in that sacred grove.=A0 This approach would sho= w >the essential unity of Joseph's Vision experience, at the same time >acknowledging that he wrote down what happened only a little bit at a time. What an intruiging approach! I have a firm testimony of the first vision,=20 but I have to admit, as a 40-something lifetime member, I've heard the=20 standard version so many times that it rarely impacts me on any deep level=20 any more.=20 I would find it refreshing and engaging to see the story of the first vision= =20 depicted as you suggest in option 2. It sounds as though it would be closer= =20 to what really happened. Members would have a chance to appreciate this=20 pivotal event on new levels. I could even see that approach giving=20 nonmembers a chance to experience the witness of the Spirit as they not only= =20 learn about the vision itself, but as they see the prophet continuing to=20 learn from and live by it. Certainly it would give the first vision a=20 context inviting serious reflection. Let me know when you start selling tickets :) Kathy [Grant] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Hatch Subject: Re: [AML] Good News Date: 02 Jul 2001 16:29:47 -0700 Yeah, I know. I was a little heavy on that point. The reality of commercial publishing, though, is that I must learn to do this (however foreign it is to my nature), and do it well, if I want to continue to publish commercially. In this business, the bottom line rules. Sigh. Beth Hatch Craig Huls wrote: > Congratulations Elizabeth....Go forth and SELL SELL SELL! > > Craig Huls > > > > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] _Pearl Harbor_ Screenwriter (was: Midstream Mormon Publisher) Date: 02 Jul 2001 17:24:42 -0600 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > [Pearl Harbor] I don't know the writer, and I don't know where the story came from. The screenwriter was the same Wallace who wrote the much better film "Braveheart." -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] GAs in Church Pubs Date: 02 Jul 2001 18:24:29 -0500 > If I understood you correctly, McConkie was working on a SF trilogy? What > is the history behind this? Oh dear. I really need to be more careful about saying things like that. I don't know whether BRM was at all interested in reading SF, let alone writing it, but the image of him working on something of the sort so amused me, and the idea that we'd never be able to tell that he _wasn't_ working on it seemed so pregnant with possibility, I decided to write as if unknowable reality fit my mental picture of it. Perhaps my deliberate perception of that reality could collapse the universal wave function and make it so. The only history behind this is my own warped sense of humor. Now I do have it on very good fourth-hand authority that President Kimball penned some excellent historical romances under a pseudonym, but the principles in that story have all passed on, and we're left only with intriguing between-the-lines hints in _The Miracle of Forgiveness_, which, when analyzed by a computer (as in the Bible code) yields passages from three best-selling Harlequin romances and Norman Mailer's _The Tropic of Capricorn_. Hmmm. Jim Picht http://vic.nsula.edu/scholars_college/picht/home.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marsha Steed" Subject: [AML] Re: Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 02 Jul 2001 16:25:13 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Well folks, I'm back. I don't know how may of you may recall a sort of q= uiet but opinionated moderate ( yes, I know 'Rush' detests that title ) w= ho once dwelt amongst you. =20 I was interested in the E-book and Future of Irreantum discussions. I = believe I'd love to be involved in both of these ventures. I think that p= utting some books on tape is a fantastic idea. I know when I travel, the= re are never enough titles that I want to choose from. If it could be do= ne economically, it could be a huge service as well as a profitable niche= =2E I have a great voice and would love to read. ( Yes, I'm humble too.= I have always held to the definition of humility as 'knowing one's stre= ngths and weaknesses )=20 Keep talking, some of us are listening and the wheels are turning.=20 It is *Goood* to see some of your names again. =20 --<--{@ Chantaclair Rose aka Marsha Steed http://Chantaclair.com/Poetry.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: Re: [AML] Jennie HANSEN, _Macady_ (Review) Date: 02 Jul 2001 18:01:16 -0600 (MDT) Quoting Jeff Needle : > Thanks for submitting this. I enjoyed your point of view very much. Thanks for being so kind. :) > I've adopted something of a George Bush-type attitude toward Mormon > fiction. > You don't expect much, and you're surprised when the author does well. > You > make good points, but they didn't detract at all from my enjoyment of > the > book. Yeah, I've done a lot of that myself. Like I said in a post a couple of months ago (?) about Jack Weyland, sometimes you gotta look past some of the writing flaws to find what really is an enjoyable story. But I really wish we could get these enjoyable stories without the writing flaws. Why can't Mormons write???? I remember that when I started reading _Macady_, I was determined not to like it. I'd read Hansen before once, and found the writing flaws to be irritating to the point of distraction. Plus I didn't want to read a horse story, and the cover shows some chick riding a horse. So I'm not sure why I chose to read it in the first place, except maybe to gripe about it. So I was probably harder on the book early on than I would have been otherwise. If I'd wanted to like it, I would've looked past the flaws more. (That doesn't mean that they aren't still there.) But somewhere near the end, I remember, I got to where I couldn't put it down. Pretty good for a book that I wasn't going to like. > I found the mentions of the now-departed characters to be important to > the > plot. Macady's ex-fiance, for example, is an ongoing influence on how > she > behaves in various situations. Well, I'm not in a very good position to argue anything, since I don't remember much of the book. But from my notes, it looks like her feelings also could have simply been due to her father's abandonment of her family. Why bother with the ex-fiance subplot at all? Except perhaps to solidify her "desirable" status, since someone as desirable as her would surely have been married before now... But, like I said, I really don't know. I haven't looked at the book since 1998. --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 02 Jul 2001 18:01:04 -0600 ---Original Message From: Eric R. Samuelsen > Broken record time: I don't think we get to make this kind of > judgment. > > I think we owe all our brothers and sisters the courtesy of a > presumption of good will. I think we need to understand that > for most writers, the choice to make profanity part of a > character's voice is an aesthetic choice, not a moral choice. > By the same token, the choice, in film or theatre, to use > the artistic tool of nudity is an aesthetic choice. > Certainly all aesthetic choices have moral ramifications, but > the choice to use profanity or nudity or to depict sexual > behavior artistically isn't freighted with more moral > significance than the choice to have a character say "I love > you," or "let's eat," or wear a blue jumper rather than a > pink one. Perhaps, as LDS artists, we feel that we shouldn't > create characters who use profanity, or perhaps we feel that > we can give a scene the same emotional power without nudity > than we could with nudity. Those are surely decisions all > artists must make for themselves. But please, let's not > judge the choices made by our brothers and sisters. I think you may be right up to a point. We certainly shouldn't look at a play or a book and make judgments about the author and how morally corrupt they must be to write such a thing. We just don't know the motivations of the authors enough to assign blame or divine motivation. But I think we need to consider very carefully a presumption of good will. If a play by an author disturbs me and is one I judge carries a morally depraved viewpoint (I'm perfectly comfortable personally judging a play, and while it is difficult not to extend the judgment to the author, it is not at all impossible) then I will be likely not have a presumption of good will for the next play by that same author. The presumption of good will only extends to the unknown. Through experience, I think it is perfectly valid to evaluate the work of an artist or publishing house and evaluate their new presentations based on their past works. It doesn't take Mick Jagger confessing to a GA on the airplane that the purpose of his music is to encourage kids to have more sex to know that his songs seem geared towards encouraging kids to have more sex. Good will is fine and all, but once that good will is compromised, it has to be earned back. It is true that people (and publishing criteria) can change, but that change will (or at least should) be accompanied by some announcement or sign of change. Which is why I won't likely read any more fiction in Irreantum without first asking people what the stories are like, for example. I don't want to toss the publication entirely because I think it is a worthwhile periodical, but I don't want to stumble on any more stories like "The Chastening" (in the latest issue) unannounced. We already hashed this out in November (which, interestingly enough, is printed in part in the latest issue of Irreantum) about faithless fiction. There are some things that I am so tired of reading that an author or publication that prints them has lost the presumption of good will. Well, that isn't entirely correct. I have all the good will in the world to the editors and publishers of Irreantum. I think they do good work that is hard and time consuming and I extend them my best wishes and all the good will I possess. But the stories printed there won't have the presumption that I can stomach them any more. I'll even maintain a presumption of good will about Helynne Hollstein Hansen (the author of "The Chastening") because I hope she is as dedicated to the gospel as anyone else and I don't think that just because I couldn't stomach her story that it means she is destined to an eternity of fiery brimstone. But I won't read any more of her stories unless I first ask someone I can trust if it is another one of the faithless presentations so adored by the academically trained. I'll read Kirby and Adams and Allred and Nunes and, well, you get the picture all unscreened, but no more unknown Irreantum fiction. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Hatch Subject: [AML] Best Books and BY (was: Midstream Mormon Publisher) Date: 02 Jul 2001 17:21:34 -0700 Eric R. Samuelsen wrote: > We're commanded to learn from the 'best books.' I've been thinking a lot about D & C 88 lately, mostly because I just taught it in Sunday School. What are these 'best books' we're to learn from? Yesterday, while working in the ward library, I came across these quotes in _The Discourses of Brigham Young_: "And inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has designed us to know all that is in the earth, both the good and the evil, and to learn not only what is in heaven, but what is in hell, you need not expect ever to get through learning. Though I mean to learn all that is in heaven, earth, and hell. Do I need to commit iniquity to do it? No. If I were to go into the bowels of hell to find out what is there, that does not make it necessary that I commit one evil. . ." 2:94 (p. 249) "If I do not learn what is in the world, from first to last, somebody will be wiser than I am. I intend to know the whole of it, both good and bad. Shall I practice evil? No; neither have I told you to practice it, but to learn by the light of truth every principle there is in existence in the world." 2:94 (p. 248) "In them we are taught to study the best books, that we may become as well-acquainted with the geography of the world as we are with our gardens, and as families (familiar? I can't read my handwriting) with the people--so far at least as they are portrayed in print--as we are with our families and neighbors." 8:40 (p.255) It seems to me that he's saying it's good to learn all about this world (the good and the bad) through print, without having to commit the acts to gain the knowledge. And it seems he's saying that reading about the acts doesn't mean we'll necessarily go out and do them ourselves. Have I interpreted these correctly, do you think? Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Paris Anderson Date: 03 Jul 2001 02:03:13 -0000 I'd like to extend a welcome to Paris Anderson. Paris wrote a very good missionary-journal-as-novel, "Waiting for the Flash" (1988). There was a lot in the novel about psychology that was interesting (are you trained in psychology, Paris?) I also remember his 1987 story in Sunstone, "You: A Missionary Story", which was written entirely in the second person. My bibliography says that he also wrote a children's novel once called "Claire: A Mormon Girl". Paris, have you published any other works? Was "Waiting for the Flash" self-published? I saw copies of it at the BYU bookstore for several years, were you able to get it in many other bookstores as well? Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA > >Wow--I've been trying to get on this liist for a week _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wes Rook (by way of Ronn Blankenship ) Subject: [AML] MN Author B. Weston Rook Tells Story of Rediscovered Faith: Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:18:01 -0500 From Mormon-News: See footer for instructions on joining and leaving this list. Do you have an opinion on this news item? Send your comment to letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com Author B. Weston Rook Tells Story of Rediscovered Faith SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA -- LDS author B. Weston Rook's latest novel, "The Junction" explores what could happen when a bitter less-active member of the church is partnered with an anti-Mormon and given the assignment of living the life of a missionary. The book's main character, Deems Ellison, turned his back on God soon after returning home from his LDS mission to Colorado. He rarely thought about those days anymore, preferring to bury himself in his work as a criminologist for the FBI. But now Deems is forced to confront his past when he is assigned to go undercover as bait for a serial killer who is targeting Mormon Missionaries in Grand Junction, CO. As he battles his personal demons and plays a dangerous game of cat-and-mouse with a madman, he inadvertently uncovers a disturbing secret about his own past, and rediscovers his faith in the process. Rook simply smiles when asked about the criticism that his book is too graphic or deals with mature themes. "The only people who seem to have a problem with it are those who only read the first chapter before passing judgement, " the author explains. "Everyone who has read the whole book has loved it. Chapter One had to set the scene for the rest of the story and establish the existence of a murderer. But I don't agree that there is anything graphic about it. I was very careful to only write about the investigation and examination of violent crime scenes by an FBI agent after the fact. There is nothing violent about it." As for the complaint that his book deals with mature themes, Rook dismisses this also,claiming that all the experiences faced by his characters are based on his own experiences as a missionary in Colorado. "I think anyone who has actually served a mission for the Church will tell you that some of his experiences were on the mature side. I think this story is just a fair and accurate portrayal of missionary life, both comical and tragic." Rook comes from a strong Mormon background and was raised in Sacramento, California. He began writing after several of his college instructors noticed his talent and urged him to consider changing his major from Film Production to Journalism. When forced to quit school to care for his ailing grandmother, Rook saw this as an opportunity to try his skills at writing a novel. The result was "A Shadow From The Past" which was called "an earnest novel, deeply felt and worked out with a good deal of honesty and force" by author Mark Jolly. Rook was a Seminary Teacher for three years and is currently teaching Elders Quorum. "The Junction" has already enjoyed good word-of-mouth praise, with sales across the Western States, Alabama, and New Jersey. Now the book is heading to bookstores and is available worldwide on the Internet at the author's website WWW.BWESTONROOK.COM or by calling 1-888-795-4274. Source: Author B. Weston Rook Tells Story of Rediscovered Faith Wes Rook Press Release 29Jun01 US CA SF A2 >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 02 Jul 2001 20:53:36 -0500 Here's the problem as I see it: In reading "mainstream" or "secular" literature (including genre fiction such as SF&F, mystery, horror, etc.: I personally don't have a lot of experience reading romance fiction ;-) ), I note that much of it includes scenes of explicit sex and/or violence. While such things are sometimes necessary to the plot, in other cases, such scenes do not seem to develop naturally from the storyline, but almost seem to be added in after the main story was finished. This makes me, as a would-be writer, wonder if publishers do not consider the presence of such explicit scenes as necessary to make a work a commercial success. IOW, can I compete with Stephen King (or even get my first novel published) if I don't include explicit sex, violence, or language? If I don't include them, am I limiting myself to the Jack Weyland market, meaning also that I am limited to the kind of stories he writes? Can I write a story that will be of interest to readers outside of Happy Valley and get it published if I maintain Happy Valley standards for content and language? Thoughts? -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 02 Jul 2001 21:40:35 -0600 ---Original Message From: Amelia Parkin > I think that I would be incapable of finding a Jack > Weyland novel, even if I were to read every one of them, that left me > questioning anything other than why it is Mormon's can't deal with the > fact that they are just like the rest of the world--that we are part of > the world every bit as much as others are. But you see, we *aren't* just like the rest of the world. We may be part of the world every bit as much as others are, and we certainly are as human as others are, but we have something that none of the others have (the Gospel). And if that doesn't make a difference in your story, then your story will be abandoned by Mormon readers. > I am asking that the opportunity > be there for an author to write such literature and then not be > immediately questioned simply because the heroine of his novel is both an > adulteress and a warm, kind, loving, lovable woman. Is it possible to > show how sin and being Christlike can simultaneously be a part of our > lives? You can't be sinning and Christlike at the same time. Christlike is by definition without sin. I think you could show someone who *has* sinned and is Christlike. You could probably show that someone is Christlike and still sins, but you'll have to show how that sin affects your characters because fundamental to LDS theology is that sin carries damage. I think that your specific example is possible, but it would be exceptionally difficult and would have to be more or less the focus of a novel. You can't take a warm, kind, loving and lovable woman and add adultery without changing the picture substantially. Adultery is specifically troubling to add to a Mormon novel without it becoming the focus. Adding adultery will dramatically change the expectations of your story. In order to be truly Mormon, such sin has to have consequences. Not necessarily the ones you would expect (things that may or may not happen like STDs or pregnancy) but certainly adultery will have some damaging affect on a person. If you show someone who commits great sin and has nothing change as a result then you will lose your market. Sin has consequences and not just ones saved up for judgment day. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] McCLOUD, _Kirtland_ (Review) Date: 02 Jul 2001 12:59:56 -0700 Thank you for posting this review. I'd like to focus on the following cite from the book: > "Eden came below stairs.and informed him with as much coy smugness > as a cat who is licking the last of cream from her whiskers that he would > allow her to keep company with the gentleman, else she would pack her > belongings on the instant and go stay with Bertha Walker-who has > already offered her the use of a cozy little room above the millinery shop." > I will have to admit that I own about half a dozen of McCloud's books but don't recall ever finishing any of them. The above example may explain this. Her prose is often tortured and difficult to follow. Her romantic style is also not one I enjoy much. There must be an audience to which she appeals, or she wouldn't be publishing so many books (this is an assumption on my part, of course). I'm wondering just who this audience is. The other day I picked up an old Ensign magazine at DI that had an article on the writing of romance fiction. I haven't read it in its entirety yet, but skimming it, I see the writer questions the quality of LDS romance fiction. Thanks again for this good review. [Jeff Needle] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 03 Jul 2001 01:38:36 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > Um. Droves? I think you overstate. Here's a quote from opera singer Michael Ballard at the 1995 Mormon Arts Festival: I met with the Bishop and the Stake President and had a book, a very substantial book of all the artists who were Mormons living in the Manhattan Ward. It was page after page after page after page, but most of them either had an 'X' or an 'X' in parenthesis around them. I said, "What does this 'X' mean?" "It means they've been excommunicated." "What does the parenthesis around the 'X' mean? "It means if they come through the revolving door they'll be excommunicated." Ballard attributes this to the highly corruptive nature of the business. But I say, the low opinion that church members and occasionally even General Authorities seem to have of art greases the wheels of that corruption. If artists are not appreciated by their own people, they'll go where they're appreciated. If we appreciated them more, perhaps fewer would be so enticed by the corrupt artistic culture out there. > And frankly, I've never heard of > an intellectual/artist/writer/whatever who left the Church because of > Church policy about art (or because there wasn't enough swear words in a > play). They tend to leave when they find something that few members > know about or because they can't accept some doctrine that has been > taught--i.e. for ideological reasons not presentation reasons. And do you think this happens out of the blue? I've learned all sorts of things about the church, it's doctrine, it's history, it's leaders, that give one pause, but I'm still here. Something has to have prepared an individual to let things like that knock him out of the church. I'd say the preparatory things are much more significant than the final straw that makes them act. > At any rate, I think it may be a legitimate shift to take > the burden from those who are struggling with the gospel, have less > understanding, and are easily offended to those who, as you say, think. And who says that, just because people think, they can't also struggle with the Gospel, have less understanding in critical areas, and become offended? This truly sounds like anti-intellectualism to me. > And if you want to claim victim status, it is a shift from a larger > population to a decidedly smaller one. Well, that seems a bit calloused to me, but is only valid anyway if we're talking an either/or proposition. I have no idea why we can't accomodate both populations. After all, the "unthinking" population is going by what the church leaders say. So if the church leaders say, "Fiction is okay," why are they harmed? On the contrary, I believe they'd be helped. > Well, like I said, I don't think we're losing people because of the > simplifications. We lose some of our intellectuals, but not because of > how the Church has decided to present its message. Like I said, I don't think it's a simplistic process, that one day an intellectual learns something and leaves the church. This intellectual has long ago become disillusioned with the cavalier approach the church seems to have at times toward truth and facts. The way the church presents its message can be a big part of that. > The lack of an explanation means that people have to pray about it and > follow or not. Giving an explanation means that people can deal with > the explanation without dealing with the message. No explanation means > people have to argue with God. An explanation gives people a chance to > argue with the GAs. I'd call that having more wiggle room if I can take > on the reasoning of a GA instead of God. And if a large portion of church members did that, you may be right. But I don't see it. I see many of them treating the silence as if it were a message as loud and clear as a statement. But since there is no information in silence, they provide their own information--i.e., interpretation--then accept or argue with that. Same process + less information to work with = larger wiggle room. How many members of the church do you think are really praying about the new fiction policy in church magazines to see if it's a message that fiction is bad? > Okay, now try getting that explanation through a correlation committee > and/or a unanimous vote of 15 people with vastly different backgrounds > and opinions. Well, I was thinking of that statement being delivered by a General Authority, not a committee of church magazine editors. But the correlated approach to art is what I'm complaining about. As I give my solutions, I'm doing so in the context of alternatives to correlation committees, not as add-ons grafted onto them. > Because art is nowhere *near* the equivalent of preaching the Gospel. > No doubt you *can* teach gospel principles through art. We've had a > number of discussions that indicate a faithful Mormon can't really *not* > teach gospel principles through art, at least as much as they understand > and believe gospel principles. But that is a whole lot different from > preaching the Gospel direct because the direct address challenges the > listener/reader to recognize the truth of doctrine taught plain. And as > much as you may think you know or can communicate about something like > the Atonement, you won't *really* know anything at all about it until > you hear the story told plain and with accompanying testimony of its > truth. I just plain disagree with you here, for the same reason that we differ on reasons for artists leaving the church. I'm getting the impression that you're only looking at the highly visible catalyst event to these things: the straw-on-the-camel's-back fact from church history that finally drives the intellectual over the edge, or the tracting missionaries that find the golden contact and teach him the discussions. But the preparatory stuff is equally as important--I'd say more important. Without the preparation--the opening (or closing) of the heart--the catalyst event becomes quite meaningless. Art will open hearts much more effectively than sermons. I've heard many sermons on loving your enemy. All of them put together did not drive that point home to me like one scene out of a movie: the "Les Miserables" film with Richard Jordan as Valjean and Anthony Perkins as Javert. When a bishop invites the destitute Valjean into his home, feeds and beds him, then Valjean steals his silver plates and utensils, and finally the police arrest him and bring him back to the bishop, the bishop says the silver was a gift to Valjean to help him start over, and also gives him a pair of silver candlesticks. This completely turned Valjeans's life around, and etched itself indelibly in my mind as a marvelous sermon of Christian love. This one scene is what instilled in me the passion I have for the story behind "Les Miserables" as a superb example of redemption and the efforts of one man to be truly Christlike. I don't so much as remember a single one of the sermons about this that I've heard over the years. Not even from General Authorites! Maybe sermons have seemed more effective in preaching the Gospel because we as an LDS culture have hardly use art, so we don't have the experience to understand its power. > Art may prepare someone to accept the Gospel, but a) it isn't the only > way to be prepared to accept the Gospel and b) it isn't enough by itself > for someone to accept the Gospel. Neither is the sermon if the heart isn't prepared. The fact that other ways exist to prepare a person does not in any way diminish the importance of art in doing so. Certainly not to the individual who _was_ prepared by art. Since art in no way conflicts with other methods, why should we diminish it? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Literary LCD Date: 03 Jul 2001 02:52:06 -0600 Frank Maxwell wrote: > Okay, I understand what you mean. However, I'm not sure that a writer > should limit himself or herself by specializing in stories which depict the > "gamut of human degradation." I feel like I keep fighting the same battle over and over. It's all a matter of balance. Evangelical Christians use the writings of Paul in the New Testament to support their belief that faith and faith alone is what leads to salvation. They do so because Paul's writings seem to say that. What they forget is to add the cultural context. Paul was talking to people who had gone off the deep end following the letter of the law, not to mention a bunch of rules and interpretations added on to that. He was emphasizing faith because that's what his audience needed to hear. Nowadays evangelical Christians think Mormons emphasize works--just live the commandments to be saved--and ignore the role of faith. We do not ignore that role. We emphasize works because those Christians have gone to an extreme in defining the role of faith in salvation, so works is what they need to hear about. When something goes to one extreme, you counteract that by emphasizing the other extreme. Not because you believe in the other extreme, but because averaging one extreme with another produces balance. How in the world could you think my comments support the idea that authors should be limited in anything? I'm for the exact opposite. They shouldn't be limited at all, except by their own choices. Why should they be limited to the gamut of human niceness anymore than to the gamut of human degredation? But in the LDS market, they are limited to the niceness. So I emphasize the opposite extreme. If I were talking to authors and publishers in the outside world, I'd be emphasizing the niceness extreme. I'd be demanding the right to NOT put sex in my stories to get published. > But even if I'm wrong about that, I feel more strongly that this kind of > niche marketing is the wrong approach for a Mormon publisher to take. I'll > elaborate more on this later, but I think a "midstream Mormon publisher" > should try to publish a wide range of books, not a narrow range. I agree. The narrow range already exists: human niceness. To create a wide range, you have to move beyond human niceness. I don't want a narrow range of degradation any more than a narrow range of niceness. I want the range wide open. > I wonder why, when we talk about addressing "serious" matters in Mormon > literature, some people immediately bring up sexual degradation. I'm not > trying to insult any of you, but is there a voyeuristic component in some > people's call for an "edgier" Mormon fiction? Fighting the same battle over and over. "Some people" bring up sexual degradation because it's taboo in LDS literature. That's a limitation on the author. That's a narrowing of the range. Why, when I try to expand the limitations and range, am I the one accused of trying to limit and narrow? This is yet another example of how I believe Mormons, deep down, think sex is dirty. When an author wants to put some sex in his story, instantly he's accused of voyeurism. Sorry, but a few words scribbled on a page does not thrill me anywhere near as much as the actual act with my wife--why would I even need literary voyeurism? Or at the very least, go out and buy a Playboy magazine if I were really after some voyeurism. Sticking a bit of sex into an LDS novel doesn't strike me as particularly satisfying, sexually speaking. > I think there are lots of serious matters that could be addressed in Mormon > lit, which do not fall under the category of "degradation". In an elders > quorum lesson I just gave, I asked the group to help me list on the board > the kinds of trials and tribulations that had occurred to people whom they > personally knew in their families or in the ward. In addition to job loss, > family problems, and converts being persecuted by their non-LDS relatives, > there were several cases of deaths from cancer or other tragic accidents. > Are these matters serious enough for Mormon literature to address? Yes, and they ought to be addresses, and they ARE being addressed. That's why we're not emphasizing them. Sex is just barely getting to be addressed, very cautiously, very timidly, and in my opinion, very ineffectively. Thus I emphasize it over others. Just aiming for balance. This trend of addressing the more gritty realities of life generally is new in LDS literature, but for the most part it seems to be well-received. Even Gerald Lund impressed me with some of the issues he was willing to tackle in "Work and the Glory," and Jack Weyland is addressing some of them to the best of his ability. But sex lags behind all this like the ugly duckling that the rest of the duck family doesn't want to acknowledge. And I keep asking myself, why? Why, of all the gritty realities of life, is sex singled out as the one which still gets the dark ages treatment? My hypothesis: Mormons still labor under the Puritan cultural baggage of thinking sex is dirty. Oh, we've changed the word to disguise this attitude: sex is sacred. But we still treat it as dirty in our behavior, and as the saying goes, you actions speak so loudly... > But if I really wanted to read about human degradation, I'd start looking > up reports from Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch. The Job-like > sufferings of innocent victims around the world seem much more significant > to me than the imaginary sexual hangups of fictional Wasatch Frontians. Some of the suffering of these victims is sexual degradation, is it not? Yet a novel about that wouldn't fare any better in the LDS market than the soap opera of Wasatch Front hangups. Any of the other suffering would be fine, but not the sexual stuff, because sex is dirty. I guess that means murder and pommeling and slavery is not dirty, because those could be in the novel. > Perhaps if Mormon literature is to become truly mature, it should stop > looking inward at its own emotional and psychological troubles, and start > looking outward at the world that surrounds it. Just as long as it doesn't look at the sexual part of that world. Naughty naughty. Voyeurism. In other words, you're not making the issue go away by trying to redirect our vision outward. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 03 Jul 2001 10:49:03 -0600 Yea! I received a good supply of contest novels. I'm about to see if any of them look publishable. The best one will get the thousand bucks. The others? They may work on the market. Who wants to choose, edit, discuss? I can get them published by Salt Press IF THEY ARE GOOD! Usually, if they are good (like ANGELS of the DANUBE), the author can get them published himself through a house already in operation. However, if there are some novels that are not being accepted by the usual houses, and YOU people can convince Chris, or Scott Parkin or Tory Anderson, or myself (or who ever else wants to join the "Rejected Mormon Novels Board?") that the world needs it, we'll publish it. Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 5:08 PM The AML already has the Marilyn Brown novel contest with a $1,000 award toward publication. Maybe the AML itself should start publishing good novels that come through that channel. However, we wouldn't want to divert winning authors from better publishing opportunities, such as Alan Mitchell's good book with Cedar Fort and Jack Harrell's upcoming winner with Signature. But we could at least get a start with some books we believe in that don't find other publishers. We start with a trickle and work toward a stream (of sales figures as well as number of releases). And another thought: the AML is an award-giving and scholarly/critical organization; would it be a conflict of interest to start publishing original creative works? If so, maybe Irreantum should be spun off as an independent magazine and book publisher--but not without a new, major source of funding (not that the AML has enough funds to support even Irreantum magazine presently, but it's a better platform to work from than nothing). Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] NY Times Udall review Date: 03 Jul 2001 18:36:27 -0000 Call me the official forwarder of Edgar Mint reviews. I came accross this brief one in the NY Times. I assume we don't have a reprint agreement with them, so I'll just quote a part of it. It has arrived at my local library, so I hope to read it this month. New York Times, July 1, 2001, Late Edition. By Jennifer Reese "rambling and generous first novel" "Contemporary fiction is full of cynical, world-weary protagonists. One of the strengths of this big, uneven novel -- it reads at times like a John Irving novel touched up by Roy Blount Jr. -- is the lovely and complex character of Edgar, an innocent whose struggle to survive is at odds with his fundamentally gentle nature. ("Don't go bad, Edgar," an aide at the Indian school whispers to him after a fight.) The conflict is never presented as simple; Edgar almost does go bad. But he manages to detach himself from miserable experiences by setting them down on paper. Other characters are less rich, the denouement seems rushed, and the book is too long. But it is also sweet, sad and refreshing." Andrew Hall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 03 Jul 2001 13:01:51 -0600 Eric Samuelsen writes: [...] >Certainly all aesthetic choices have moral ramifications, but >the choice to use profanity or nudity or to depict sexual >behavior artistically isn't freighted with more moral >significance than the choice to have a character say "I love >you," or "let's eat," or wear a blue jumper rather than a >pink one. Is it your impression that there would not be significant disagreement with this assertion among the General Authorities? For example, on more than one occasion in General Conference, mention has been made of a survey of "influential television writers and executives in Hollywood" which showed that they tended to hold more liberal views on sexual behavior than the American public in general. Commenting on this survey, President Hinckley said that these writers "are educating us in the direction of their own standards, which in many cases are diametrically opposed to the standards of the gospel." It appears to me that President Hinckley saw more moral significance in their decisions regarding sexual matters than in their decisions regarding jumper colors. [...] >But please, let's not judge the choices made by our brothers >and sisters. Certainly we should try to make our judgments righteous, but should we really try to avoid judgment altogether? Isn't the way we make sense out of the world largely by trying to understand *why* things happen? In most of the fiction I've read, the author has seemed to be trying to give us insight into his/her characters' motivations. Do most authors wish us to confine the insight thus gained to the realm of nonentities wherein their characters dwell, or are they often trying to say something indirectly about the motivations of real people? And if artists can say things about others' motivations, why can't others say things about artists' motivations? One of the General Authorities commenting on the aforementioned survey of television writers was Elder Ballard in the April 1989 General Conference. He said: =20 "I express my own and this Church=92s disappointment, disagreement, and even outrage with television that turns our attention and sometimes our inclinations toward violence, self-serving greed, profanity, disrespect for traditional values, sexual promiscuity, and deviance." Is the outrage expressed by Elder Ballard appropriate? [...] >We're commanded to learn from the 'best books.' I've been >thinking a lot about D & C 88 lately, mostly because I just >taught it in Sunday School. What was the reaction of your class members to the lesson manual's quote from President Benson about what books *not* to read? [...] >I can't imagine that the Lord wouldn't want us to gain from >the insights into the human condition offered by . . . >Stephen King. I guess the question is: Are the insights worth the price?=20 In a 1983 BYU Devotional, H. Burke Peterson voiced what has been a frequent theme among General Authorities: "As we go through life, we may be exposed to stories, pictures, books, jokes, and language that are filthy and vulgar, or to television shows, videos, or movies that are not right for us to see or hear. Our minds will take it all in. They have the capacity to store whatever we give them. Unfortunately, what our minds take in they keep, sometimes forever." Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Humor-Themed _Irreantum_ Date: 02 Jul 2001 17:38:19 -0500 At 09:57 PM 6/25/01, you wrote: >Oh dear. My poems are not meant to be *funny.* I hope no one tries to read >them that way or they'll think my attempts at humor are pretty pitiful! > >Sharlee Glenn >glennsj@inet-1.com Some of my poetry is funny (or I hope it is), but this particular one ("Resurrected Spring"), isn't either. Don't worry. Linda Adams Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 03 Jul 2001 14:37:54 -0600 Amelia Parkin (by the way, any relation to Scott?) wrote: "Why would any author who is good enough to have his work published in the "outside" publishing world come to a Mormon publisher who will make him remove four-letter words, anything resembling explicit sex, and other things not nearly as bad as these (like the word "pee", to use an example posted to the list)? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be willing to watch my work be adulterated that way. Stylistic suggestions and grammar corrections are one thing; watering down my reality in order to make it palatable is another. I'd rather publish with an "outside" firm who would let me represent the reality I see." Assuming that they would. I had a couple of interesting experiences with national publishers when I was sending around my YA novel manuscript (since published by Bookcraft as _Circle Dance_). After I sent the manuscript to Simon & Schuster, I got back a letter stating that while the editor "very much enjoyed" the book and thought that my characters were "distinct and credible," she, ultimately, could not take the novel on because she was (and I'm quoting directly from the letter here) "concerned that the story might reinforce some cultural prejudices regarding Native Americans and alcoholism." I wrote back and said that the last thing I wanted to do was perpetuate erroneous stereotypes of Native Americans. In fact, one of the major themes my story concerns itself with is the debunking of such sterotypes. "On the other hand," I wrote, "I did not attempt to gloss over the very real problem of alcoholism among the Ute Indians." I then proceeded to provide statistics (gathered from Indian Health Services) showing that the rate of alcohol-related deaths among Native Americans is well over *five times* that of the national rate and that nearly *half* of the deaths of Indian people are traceable in some way to alcohol. I ended by saying that I grew up on the Uintah-Ouray Reservation and saw, first-hand, the devastating effects of this disease. "Alcoholism among Native Americans," I concluded, "is a very real problem, and pretending that it doesn't exist--either in life or in literature--won't make it go away." I wish I could say that this impassioned rebuttal changed the editor's mind and convinced her to take on the book, but, of course, it didn't. The reality I saw and attempted to portray was not, in this case, acceptable because it was not politically correct. (From the articles I've read, it sounds like Brady Udall is facing similar criticism with regard to his _The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint_). Here's another example: A prominent NY publishing house was very interested in this same manuscript, but wanted me to take out all the "Mormon stuff." Now, if you've read _Circle Dance_, you know that it does not in any way "preach" Mormonism. It does, however, have a Mormon setting (it takes place in Utah--on the Uintah-Ouray Indian reservation to be exact) and it is peopled with Mormon characters whose culture and religion obviously color their world-view. Taking out the "Mormon stuff", then, would have been virtually impossible. I would have had to scrap the whole book. So, back to your original question: "Why would any author who is good enough to have his work published in the "outside" publishing world come to a Mormon publisher . . .?" Perhaps because only a Mormon publisher allows for certain realities to be represented at all. This is changing, I think. But slowly, and with great resistance in some corners. Still, the fact remains that many New York publishers simply aren't interested in what some of us want to write about--our Mormonism. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Literary LCD Date: 03 Jul 2001 16:46:28 -0600 At 12:51 PM 6/30/01 -0700, you wrote: >Perhaps if Mormon literature is to become truly mature, it should stop >looking inward at its own emotional and psychological troubles, and start >looking outward at the world that surrounds it. Hear hear! One Mormon novel I read (I don't remember who wrote it, so apologies if it's yours) had a woman dying of cancer. She still had young children. Her sister came to stay to help take care of the kids and other things so the young husband could continue working and bringing in an income. As the novel progressed, the wife died and the sister stayed to help. Then she and the husband found themselves becoming attracted to each other--strongly attracted. I liked this book in part because it did have substance. It showed that the husband and wife's faith helped them deal with pain and grief and the sorrow of separation--real trials that the gospel does not eliminate from life. And I liked the fact that the the surviving adults were portrayed as having actual sexual feelings--the kind that real people have--yet were shown as not giving in to them because their standards were real to them and they intended to live those standards. The Mormon characters were flesh-and-blood characters, not plaster saints, and they struggled and eventually conquered. I liked reading a book that showed that you don't have to have sex just because you really really want to and really really care for the other person. I like the idea of putting that idea out there for people to think about. I remember the shocked reaction I got from a gentleman I was dating --- years ago: "What do you mean, no? Nobody says no!" He actually believed that. How sad that he was unaware that one does have a choice other than acting the natural man. Presenting the reality of a scenario in which people don't let the world tell them how to behave is a worthwhile goal for a moral writer, IMO. But the characters need to have enough substance for the readers to be able to relate to them. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: [AML] Readers on AML-List (was: Electronic Publishing) Date: 03 Jul 2001 15:57:53 -0700 Renato, No you are not the only reader (I have never tried to write outside of school reports years ago). I am an avid reader (mainly Sci Fi (Card fan especially) and Fantasy with some adventure thrown in. Unfortunately = the adventure out there right now doesn't conform well to LDS standards = except for Card and a few other. The reason I joined this list was so I could familiarize myself with the artists who were LDS so I knew who I could trust. Jerry Tyner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] BofM Movie Themes (was: Testament) (comp) Date: 05 Jul 2001 12:29:28 -0500 >From skperry@mac.com Mon Jul 02 17:35:23 2001 on 7/2/01 5:03 PM, Travis Manning (by way of Jonathan Langford ) at manning_travis@hotmail.com wrote: > or, > "Ammon and his Amazing Sword." Somebody stop me! Or, or, I'll just stop > myself. I guess we have the "Hill Cumorah Pageant" and the "Manti Pageant" > and other manner of pageants that depict BoM characters, but let's see some > plays/musicals/screenplays that really develop the characters of these men > and women of the BoM. Develp the characters? Then you would actually NOT being using "Joseph and the Etc." as an example, right? Steve [Perry] >From margaret_young@byu.edu Mon Jul 02 17:50:52 2001 But remember, if you miss the Book of Mormon characters on the Big Screen, you can buy the little action figures at your local "Missionary Emporium" and invent your OWN script! You can have Laman or Lemuel say, "You know, Nephi, I am getting a little tired of getting electrocuted by you. I wish we hadn't even stopped at that "magic tricks" store on our way to Laban's place. (Sorry. I know this may be too much for Jonathan to print.) [Margaret Young] >From glennsj@inet-1.com Tue Jul 03 14:08:05 2001 Travis Manning wrote: > For all you playwrights and musical-ites (and all other manner of artistic > "ites") out there: We've got "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat" > making it on and off Broadway . . . but what about "Nephi and His Amazing > Journey to America?" Or, "Alma the Younger and his Brush with Death," or, > "Ammon and his Amazing Sword." Somebody stop me! Or, or, I'll just stop Or how about "Ammon and His Disarming Disposition"? :-) Sharlee Glenn - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] re: Sex in Literature (comp) Date: 05 Jul 2001 12:29:09 -0500 >From KGrant100@aol.com Mon Jul 02 17:30:16 2001 Marilyn Brown writes, > > Hi guys. I'm back, and you're talking about my favorite subject. I've been > lurking. PROPER SEX, as Michael Martindale puts it, is my favorite subject, > and I'm WAY discouraged. O'Reilly, the conservative guy on FOX, just comes > right out and says "We can't preach." And of course, that's right. NOBODY is > listening. We can't tell them not to have it. Because Michael is right. It > IS FUN. There are also 26 more diseases people can get from it, not to > mention Aids, and the habits we have of focusing on sex instead of the > REALLY IMPORTANT things that help our lives to be joyful and last a long > time. > > Oh well, I say to myself, Babylon had the same problem and look what finally > happened to them. I liked what Michael said about "confront" it. That's the > ticket. I think our "romance" writers ARE trying to confront it, don't you > think? How are they doing? I don't think we are completely lacking in > "telling stories that include sex as an integral part." But alas! I'm not > sure we can turn the minds of these hot teenagers much. Anybody have any > suggestions? Maybe it's not literature, anyway. > Marilyn, Could you clarify what you meant when you said, "I'm not sure we can turn the minds of these hot teenagers much"? This is a topic I'm very interested in, as YW counselor working with the Mia Maids. The girls seem to be simulaneously interested in and a little embarrassed by talk of physical intimacy, and they definitely have some distorted ideas they've assimilated from the current cultural climate. But they also love good stories--I'm finding that's a wonderful way to reach them. Kathy [Grant] >From dmichael@wwno.com Tue Jul 03 01:53:34 2001 OmahaMom@aol.com wrote: > But one of the > most powerful books I've read in LDS fiction dealt with an extramarital > affair. Things can be done tastefully. But it takes care. I'm curious what is tasteful about an extramarital affair. This is the point that bothers me (not that I'm assuming you pesonally think this way--just springboarding from your message). Bean-counting morality, I call it. Never mind that the message of a PG-rated film is, "Sex is fun! Let's do it with whomever we want!" As long as there is no swearing or nudity or on-screen sex in it, we're fine. The most notable recent case-in-point is the movie "Titanic." When people in Utah County bought their copy, they went to the company that edits videos for you and cut that nasty nude scene out--you know, the one where she poses nude so he can sketch her--the one with NO sex. But the actual sex scene--done very tastefully, I might add--no problem! There's no nudity there. Nothing was shown. It was all off screen, but for the hand on the steamy window. And what moral message does that scene teach our kids? If you're in love, go ahead and have sex. It's nice, it's wonderful, it's romantic. As far as we know, that nasty fiance of hers was waiting for marriage to have sex with her, but he's the bad guy. Good guy Leonardo doesn't have to wait. And wasn't it sweet that they got to have sex before he went off and died? It just wouldn't have been true love if they hadn't had sex. (I think it's very telling that the instant the sex was taken care of, the iceberg appeared and we could get on with the disaster portion.) Give me the nonsexual nude scene over that message any day--please! D. Michael Martindale >From REWIGHT@telusplanet.net Wed Jul 04 00:35:10 2001 > I'm convinced this situation exists because Mormons deep down _do_ > believe sex is dirty, although they may not admit it, even to > themselves. And I think that's awful. I refuse to cater to the attitude. I guess you don't know my R.S. friends. Anna Wight >From grant@math.byu.edu Wed Jul 04 15:58:25 2001 Amelia Parkin writes: [...] >I am also looking for the lattitude to create a work of art >which may depict a "sinful" sexual encounter (rather than >just allude to it in passing) with enough detail that the >reader can understand the simultaneity of joy and sorrow >experienced because of sin (and, no, I am not talking about >pleasure or passing happiness and sorrow; I'm talking about >JOY and sorrow). Why did you put scare quotes around the word "sinful"? As for wanting to tell a story conveying the notion that there is joy in sin, it seems to me that there are few ideas more likely to alienate the General Authorities and those who value their opinions. Chris Grant >From ditread@juno.com Thu Jul 05 10:03:03 2001 On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 03:52:06 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" writes: > If we remain silent about sex, we > allow the message of the world to dominate. If we don't depict sex in our > literature according to our understanding of it, we lose by default > to the world. My personal concern, and perhaps Jeffrey's as well, isn't the topic of sex itself but the reason for and the manner of *depicting* it. That's where "lowering the bar" can occur if we don't use great care. *How* should sex be handled in LDS literature? I believe that is between each individual author/artist/film producer and the Lord. I personally don't believe it's necessary to follow characters into a bedroom, whether they're legally married or not, either to depict sex as it should be, or the consequences of it's misuse. That, to me, is voyeurism, and a cheap, worldly cop-out. I believe both the righteous and unrighteous use of sex can be demonstrated through the characters' interactions with one another in non-sexual settings, through their dialogue and behaviors. I think the bottom line is, what is our motivation for depicting sex? Is it truly to uplift others, to increase their understanding and appreciation for this sacred aspect of our lives? Or is it merely to titillate, to compete with worldly entertainments? That, I think, is the core issue. Diann T. Read >From reid9@midwest.net Thu Jul 05 11:03:31 2001 I just finished reading Dean Koontz' book - Darkfall. I particularly wanted to read something in this genre to compare the pacing in a book I'm working on. Although there were a couple of slow spots - I found the book riveting. They alluded to sex a couple of times and there was a sex scene that lasted a couple of paragraphs. But, nothing I would call graphic. And the whole message of the story was that an honorable man could conquer evil. So, IMHO, if your writing is good - and your story is good - then you'll sell your book. If it's not - no amount of sex or graphic violence is going to sell it. We (the reading public) might be fooled once - but you won't be a repeat bestseller unless you have some respect for the people you are telling your story to. (I hate it when I end with a preposition.) Terri Terri Reid Executive Producer - Midwest Region PIXELight www.itpnow.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons (comp) Date: 05 Jul 2001 12:30:26 -0500 >From lauramaery@writerspost.com Tue Jul 03 11:39:45 2001 >> I write about bad people and try to help the audience *understand* them. > >Well that's fine. But what's wrong with writing about good people. They're >interesting too. I can think of no fictional character about whom that is true. The Arthurian myth, for example, creates deeply good people who are interesting only when they commit sin. Isn't this the fundamental "problem" with Mormon literature? That characters are interesting only when they err? Our missionary-minded culture recoils at the thought of portraying faithful people as flawed; doing so might, after all, damage our larger obligation to share the good news of the gospel with the world. And how can the gospel be "good news" if faithful, devout Saints are licentious pigs? Our obligation to be missionaries means we're self-limited to making all of our faithful characters "without sin". . .and that -- in practice -- makes all our fiction cloyingly boring. So rather than fight it (by, for example, concocting fictional inoffensive sins, or by telling our intended audience that they're not allowed to be offended our literature), I'd propose we embrace it. P'haps someone here could propose a scenario in which a fictional "good person" does something that is good, believable, and interesting? I am unable to formulate any possibilities. --lauramaery (Gold) Post >From jerry.tyner@qlogic.com Tue Jul 03 17:32:20 2001 -----Original Message----- Okay, I have to ask (although it may just be redundant because it sort of ties into 90 percent of all the lines we have going on AML, so if it's redundant, please ignore the question): Why does writing about good Mormons have to be boring and sappy? Kellene, You have a powerful point here. The thing that gets left out many times when people write are the trials and struggles we all experience in one form or another. Why do we think reality based TV (such as it is) is so popular right now. It is because the world likes to see people overcome adversity (even if it is gross sometime - okay most of the time in those shows). The problem is most people edit out the struggles. It is the struggles that make it interesting and make people want to overcome their own trials and adversity. Jerry Tyner >From REWIGHT@telusplanet.net Wed Jul 04 00:35:03 2001 > > But why do the stories of good Mormons have to be boring and sappy just > because their view of life may be basis and simple? (Okay, now I'll just sit > back and prepare for the onslaught. . . . I'm cringing as I push the send > button) > > Kellene No argument from me. I think good people are interesting. The stories that stay with us are about good people. Little Women, Wizard of Oz, Anne of Green Gables, Oliver Twist, It's A Wonderful Life. Even A Christmas Carol. Sure it focuses on a bad character, but with all the goodness around him, he changed. It's easy to write about bad people. This and this happened to them so now they go and do dispicable things. It's more interesting to see how people rise above the bad stuff that happens. Anna Wight >From dmichael@wwno.com Wed Jul 04 03:52:04 2001 Writing about good Mormons does not have to be sappy and boring--in fact shouldn't be. (As you pegged it, in the wrong hands, it can be.) The problem, again, is balance. For some time all we seemed to get was the trivial, sappy stuff. "Enough!" many of us said. So we started emphasizing more substantial, more gritty stories. The unending supply of sappy was about as reflective of genuine LDS life as "The Donna Reed Show" was about American life. We just want honest. Honest can include light, simple stories. Just not exclusively. When my former elders quorum president's daughter got involved in the methamphetamine culture, and is still, years later, trying to extricate herself from that, the last thing she needs is a story about whether to kiss on the first date. Where have the stories been that might help her? Finally, finally, they are starting to appear, but it's been a long time coming, and many members of the church still resist that trend--still question the integrity of the authors who are writing them. Shameful to not allow a girl struggling for her life to have stories that might reach her! D. Michael Martindale >From manning_travis@hotmail.com Wed Jul 04 20:03:13 2001 Marilyn Brown wrote: > >Brady writes: "It's high time somebody out there, if not me, wrote about >Mormons in a real and honest way." > >I haven't read the book, but I can guess. And it really scares me. You >CAN'T >write about the good Mormons. It's boring and sappy. So the question is >WHAT'S REAL? Marilyn, you CAN write about "good" Mormons: fiction may not be as exciting, but what about biographies, historical fiction, non-fiction sorts of texts? Travis K. Manning - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amelia Parkin Subject: [AML] re: Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 04 Jul 2001 11:10:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Below is what Kellene Adams wrote about writing about good Mormons in literature. I would like to foreground what I think is the central issue at hand. Kellene asks why it is that writing about "good Mormons" has to be boring and sappy. She goes on to tell the story of some "good Mormons" who have experienced plenty of problems. So here's my question: why is it that we continue to insist on breaking Mormons up into categories like "good," "faithful," "bad," "unrepresentative"? To do so is ridiculous. What exactly is a good Mormon? Who can even begin to define that? Why is it frightening (now I'm referring to Marilyn Brown's post) to think of what Udall's Mormons are like simply because we know they aren't "good"? It's time to stop perpetuating a fantasy about what it means to be a "good Mormon" or a "bad Mormon". It's time to simply recognize that Mormons, like everyone else on earth, suffer from problems. This is where I think at root the "good Mormon/bad Mormon" classification comes in. I think that most of us really mean to say that someone is a "good Mormon" or a "bad Mormon" because of the way in which they handle the problems they experience (of course, why we feel the compulsion to use such classifications at all is another topic that we could discuss at length; we shouldn't use them at all but we continue to do so). But somewhere along the line we have elided the humanity of the problems and end up with the notion that "good Mormons" experience problems the way a hurdler experiences hurdles: obstacles along the way that, with the help of the gospel are cleared. We end up with an empty concept of both the "good Mormon" and the "problems" they experience. That image boils down to the notion that Mormons may have problems but they also have faith and faith almost negates the problem. An all-purpose cure. If we have faith the problems go away. and "good Mormon" becomes equated with "problem free because faithful." (A disclaimer: I am in no way suggesting that faith will not solve problems; only that it's more complicated than that.) I know most people would balk at my statements. I can hear people saying that they do NOT believe that Mormons don't have problems. But that's not what I'm talking about. I know that most members of the Church recognize that other members experience problems. But in addition to understanding that reality, most of them also hold onto an ideal image of what it is to be a good Mormon and unfortunately that ideal image somehow cannot include struggles with normal problems. We don't need literature that reinforces that idea. We need literature that exposes the falseness of that idea. It's what both of my posts on sex in literature addressed. We need some reality in our literature, not a fantasy that we continue to insist is a reality. Of course reality includes the entire range of everything from Mormons who experience problems and fall away because of it or Mormons who experience problems and struggle their entire life with them or Mormons who experience problems and through reliance upon the Church/gospel are able to resolve them. Good Mormons, bad Mormons, faithful Mormons, unrepresentative Mormons. We are all all of those things, every one of us. We need to find the moral strength of character to be able to admit it. Laying claim to a false but better image of what we are does not strengthen us--it deludes us and places us on a moral high ground from which we look down not only on others but even on ourselves. We bifurcate ourselves between the false "righteous" position we assume because we feel we should be in it (often assumed because we have a strange notion that if we say we are something it is easier to become that something) and our real position. So yeah, writing about "good Mormons" in one sense--the "good Mormons" of our fantasies--would be incredibly dull and even dangerous because it fails to represent reality. But there's nothing at all boring or sappy about truly good Mormons, the ones who struggle but continue to try to use Gospel principles in their struggle. Or the good Mormons whose struggle has to do not with things external to the Church but things internal to the Church and accordingly walk away from it. Shocking right? that I would suggest that there are good Mormons who have distanced themselves in any way from the Church. But it happens. And we need to be willing to recognize it. But now I am beginning to move from one soapbox to another so I will stop. My simple answer to Kellene's question: it's not boring to write about good Mormons; it's boring to write about fake Mormons. I was wrong; I have one more thing to say. What I wrote above is a call for realism. I don't only endorse realism. I have no problem with fantasy or with warping reality for artistic ends. In fact, some of my favorite works of literature include magical realism and science fiction and fantasy. The problem I see with the kind of fantasy that I'm talking about above (fantastical notions of goodness in Mormonism) is that what it accomplishes is not widening our horizons or enabling us to travel beyond the confines of our own experience, which fantasy usually allows. Rather it narrows our horizons making only one way a viable option. I see it as essentially more destructive than constructive. okay, I've had my say. amelia parkin On Mon, 02 Jul 2001 17:05:40 -0600 Kellene Adams wrote: > Okay, I have to ask: Does > > > > > I haven't read the book, but I can guess. And it really scares me. You CAN'T > > write about the good Mormons. It's boring and sappy. So the question is > > WHAT'S REAL? Marilyn Brown > > Okay, I have to ask (although it may just be redundant because it sort of > ties into 90 percent of all the lines we have going on AML, so if it's > redundant, please ignore the question): Why does writing about good Mormons > have to be boring and sappy? > > I know a terribly good Mormon couple, married almost 40 years, dealt with > lifelong chronic depression, a five-year bout with prescription drug abuse, > one daughter who had a son out of wedlock, one son who had to get married, > one son who is inactive, one son killed in a car accident, and on top of > that, they are not the best two personality matches in the world (he's a > control freak and she's a submissive, '50s, "leave it to Beaver" mother > figure and marching into the '90s created havoc in their marriage as she > began to discover that there was more to life than her little young > children, who were no longer children, and he discovered that his strong > personality actually crushed her more than helped her). However, the very > foundation of their lives is their commitment to the gospel and their belief > that somehow working through all that life has thrown them will be > worthwhile in the end, and that working through it based on a strong belief > in Jesus Christ is the best (and really only) way to work through it. > > To me there is nothing boring and sappy about their story at all. (Okay, > maybe it could get a little sappy in the wrong hands because their absolute > commitment/love is kind of inspiring. . . . ) > > But why do the stories of good Mormons have to be boring and sappy just > because their view of life may be basis and simple? (Okay, now I'll just sit > back and prepare for the onslaught. . . . I'm cringing as I push the send > button) > > Kellene > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] re: Magazine for Mormon Women (comp) Date: 05 Jul 2001 12:33:14 -0500 >From debbro@voyager.net Tue Jul 03 14:15:42 2001 Yeah! What she said! You know, it could be done in .pdf which would give a choice of reading it on-line or printing out a hard copy. Just a thought. Debbie Brown ----- Original Message ----- > I think there's room for several different types of church magazines. = > Not necessarily put out by the church. [large snip] > > Anna Wight=20 >From debbro@voyager.net Tue Jul 03 14:54:48 2001 hey! here's a suggested title for the magazine _Modern Mormon Millie_ sorry, couldn't resist. Must be the fever. Debbie Brown >From adamszoo@sprintmail.com Tue Jul 03 15:26:39 2001 A magazine like this would sell to Christian women everywhere (probably MOST women everywhere, so long as the Church element was not overwhelming) who are not interested in the insipid shallowness of current women's magazines. It could be marketed nationally. Think how refreshing it would be to read articles on accepting our looks rather than trying to be impossibly thin and cellulite-free. Whenever I pick up a national women's magazine--usually only in a doctor's office--the slant and content only depresses me. (Nevermind that there's probably some inherent evil at work teaching us to hate ourselves if we don't look like THAT, if we don't dress like THAT we're not worthy of notice, and so on.) There are other kinds of women out there than those these articles are geared toward, who refuse to buy into that mindset. I'm one of them. Come to think of it, _Country Woman_ is more like what's described below, but is very much geared to the, well, rural-dwelling female. They include recipes for the venison and pheasant brought home over hunting season and such, gardening and agricultural articles. If I remember correctly, you do have to subscribe to contribute. Something like that, only geared for more a more generic women's population, with LDS emphasis, would be wonderful. I haven't heard a better idea yet. I'll do a column. :-) Linda Adams >From jerry.tyner@qlogic.com Tue Jul 03 16:43:06 2001 I think this is an outstanding idea. I know an LDS men's magazine wouldn't be as popular but there is a lot to be said for those invisible members (men and women) of each Ward and Stake who spend their time with the Primary and Young Women or Young Men and do not get the regular lessons and fellowship of Priesthood and Relief Society. Besides, there is a lot to be said for magazines which reflect an LDS standard. I know I would buy it. Anna - You may not have the resources yourself (nor do I with a son leaving on a mission) but someone may run with this. It is a great idea. Jerry Tyner >From sammiejustesen@msn.com Tue Jul 03 20:57:41 2001 Anna, I like your idea. Not only would the magazine appeal to LDS women, we could share subscriptions with our non-Mormon friends. The only magazine I know that comes close to this is Country Woman ( www.countrywoman.com) It's without ads and mostly composed of essay, poetry, and photos by readers. They feature a different state each month, and many of my LDS friends subscribe to it because it's so wholesome. In fact, their husbands also read it. The LDS magazine you spoke of could feature women from a different country with each issue. Keep thinking! Sammie Justesen sammiejustesen@msn.com The Writers Roost www.thewritersroost.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Electronic Publishing (comp) Date: 05 Jul 2001 12:33:33 -0500 >From PARISANDER@freeport.com Mon Jul 02 20:20:30 2001 Alphagraphics is a lot cheaper. Paris Anderson ----- Original Message ----- > > No need to go that far. Alexander's here in Orem can do POD but you have > to provide the ISBN and the color cover. >From wwbrown@burgoyne.com Tue Jul 03 10:10:08 2001 Ken Merrill is using Cedar Fort to distribute LANDLORD. (I couldn't read it, but I'm going to soon.) Maybe the IRREANTUM PRESS could align itself with a distributor? Cedar Fort might be interested. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "thomasb5" Subject: Re: [AML] GAs in Church Pubs Date: 03 Jul 2001 17:58:56 -0500 I understand what you meant. :-) Just wanted to make sure that I had not slipped into an alternate reality. Rick T ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 6:24 PM > > If I understood you correctly, McConkie was working on a SF trilogy? What > > is the history behind this? > > Oh dear. I really need to be more careful about saying things like that. I > don't know whether BRM was at all interested in reading SF, let alone writing > it, but the image of him working on something of the sort so amused me, and the > idea that we'd never be able to tell that he _wasn't_ working on it seemed so > pregnant with possibility, I decided to write as if unknowable reality fit my > mental picture of it. Perhaps my deliberate perception of that reality could > collapse the universal wave function and make it so. The only history behind > this is my own warped sense of humor. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: _Testament_ Date: 03 Jul 2001 23:24:21 -0500 Eric D. Snider: I'll go see it, and I'll write about it, and then we'll all be sorry. _______________ Now hold on a minute. I do not anticipate being sorry at all for anything you may write. I have enough of my own sorrows. I will not accept any from you, no matter how generous you may be feeling. The only reason I might feel sorry is if I thought you were not going to write honestly. And if that is going to be the case, then don't go see it and don't write about it. Send me a plane ticket. I'll see it and I'll write about it. :-> Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 04 Jul 2001 00:05:36 -0500 I would love to help out. But do you want people who don't live in Utah? Or even in the States? Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Where to Advertise? Date: 30 Jun 2001 02:41:03 -0600 Terry L Jeffress wrote: > Also, if the Church magazines accepted advertising, that creates the > implication that the Church endorses those advertisers or products > over similar companies that choose not to advertise in Church > magazines. I seem to have left the impression with several people that I was gearing up for a campaign to get advertisements back in the church magazines. That will never happen, and I don't have any desire to get it to happen. I just want to know--where do we advertise now? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: [AML] Steeds (was: Fiction in Church Mags) Date: 04 Jul 2001 01:00:40 -0500 At 10:22 AM 7/2/01, J. Scott Bronson wrote: >Yet, how many times have we heard about the Steeds from the pulpit? How >many Mormons are desperately trying to find a link to the Steeds in there >genealogy? That's twice now on this list, and _never_ from the pulpit. Who the flip are the Steeds? -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Reid Subject: RE: [AML] MN Author B. Weston Rook Tells Story of Rediscovered Faith: Wes Rook Press Release 29Jun01 US CA SF A2 Date: 05 Jul 2001 11:53:22 -0700 Okay, even though it might be graphic - as a mom with a missionary in Grand Junction, CO right now - I think I'll be picking up a copy of this book. Terri Reid Executive Producer - Midwest Region PIXELight www.itpnow.com -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:18 PM Wes Rook Press Release 29Jun01 US CA SF A2 From Mormon-News: See footer for instructions on joining and leaving this list. Do you have an opinion on this news item? Send your comment to letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com Author B. Weston Rook Tells Story of Rediscovered Faith SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA -- LDS author B. Weston Rook's latest novel, "The Junction" explores what could happen when a bitter less-active member of the church is partnered with an anti-Mormon and given the assignment of living the life of a missionary. The book's main character, Deems Ellison, turned his back on God soon after returning home from his LDS mission to Colorado. He rarely thought about those days anymore, preferring to bury himself in his work as a criminologist for the FBI. But now Deems is forced to confront his past when he is assigned to go undercover as bait for a serial killer who is targeting Mormon Missionaries in Grand Junction, CO. As he battles his personal demons and plays a dangerous game of cat-and-mouse with a madman, he inadvertently uncovers a disturbing secret about his own past, and rediscovers his faith in the process. Rook simply smiles when asked about the criticism that his book is too graphic or deals with mature themes. "The only people who seem to have a problem with it are those who only read the first chapter before passing judgement, " the author explains. "Everyone who has read the whole book has loved it. Chapter One had to set the scene for the rest of the story and establish the existence of a murderer. But I don't agree that there is anything graphic about it. I was very careful to only write about the investigation and examination of violent crime scenes by an FBI agent after the fact. There is nothing violent about it." As for the complaint that his book deals with mature themes, Rook dismisses this also,claiming that all the experiences faced by his characters are based on his own experiences as a missionary in Colorado. "I think anyone who has actually served a mission for the Church will tell you that some of his experiences were on the mature side. I think this story is just a fair and accurate portrayal of missionary life, both comical and tragic." Rook comes from a strong Mormon background and was raised in Sacramento, California. He began writing after several of his college instructors noticed his talent and urged him to consider changing his major from Film Production to Journalism. When forced to quit school to care for his ailing grandmother, Rook saw this as an opportunity to try his skills at writing a novel. The result was "A Shadow From The Past" which was called "an earnest novel, deeply felt and worked out with a good deal of honesty and force" by author Mark Jolly. Rook was a Seminary Teacher for three years and is currently teaching Elders Quorum. "The Junction" has already enjoyed good word-of-mouth praise, with sales across the Western States, Alabama, and New Jersey. Now the book is heading to bookstores and is available worldwide on the Internet at the author's website WWW.BWESTONROOK.COM or by calling 1-888-795-4274. Source: Author B. Weston Rook Tells Story of Rediscovered Faith Wes Rook Press Release 29Jun01 US CA SF A2 >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Re: Good News Date: 05 Jul 2001 12:41:28 -0500 >From jeff.needle@general.com Mon Jul 02 21:59:49 2001 Congratulations! This is a wonderful milestone for you. [Jeff Needle] ----- Original Message ----- > I'm delighted to announce that my first picture book, HALLOWEEN > SURPRISE, will be published > by Doubleday Books for Young Readers, probably in the fall of 2003. >From wwbrown@burgoyne.com Tue Jul 03 10:14:12 2001 Congratulations, Beth! What a coup! We are PROUDof you! Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 03 Jul 2001 02:18:04 -0000 All this talk about instiutional art tells me that we should have a poll on the subject of the best and worst in art sponsored by the Church. So, tell us your favorite piece(s) of instituional Mormon art, as well as your least favorite(s), and why. What makes them good or bad? I was thinking of just Church-made movies at first, from the ones in the early 50s up to The Testaments. But I guess you could also include Church sponsored pagents and plays, architecture, and art commisioned for chapels and temples. Let's stay away from hymns for now, we'll save that for another time. Remember, keep it to things sponsored by the Church itself. I look forward to everyone's participation. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 05 Jul 2001 11:19:53 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > You can't be sinning and Christlike at the same time. Christlike is by > definition without sin. Then you have described an impossible condition for all mortals who walk this earth. I suggest that Christ-like is closer to trying to be without sin, not committing sins on purpose,. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 05 Jul 2001 11:23:36 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > > Um. Droves? I think you overstate. > > Here's a quote from opera singer Michael Ballard at the 1995 Mormon Arts > Festival: > > I met with the Bishop and the Stake President and had > a book, a very substantial book of all the artists who were > Mormons living in the Manhattan Ward. It was page after > page after page after page, but most of them either had > an 'X' or an 'X' in parenthesis around them. I said, > "What does this 'X' mean?" "It means they've been > excommunicated." "What does the parenthesis around the > 'X' mean? "It means if they come through the revolving > door they'll be excommunicated." Forget whatever connotations this may have to whether artists remain active or not. What in the *&^%$ is Ballam doing looking at a list of excommunicated members at all? The Bishop and the SP who showed him those names ought to be exed themselves, imo. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: [AML] Realistic Newspaper Reporters Date: 05 Jul 2001 10:31:56 -0700 I am taking up my pen (word-processor) again to work on a novel that I keep procrastinating. Most of my characters I know, but one I don't. What I mean is that most of them have identities I know something about. It would be silly for me to populate a story with people I don't understand, but it would also seem dull to leave out the characters I don't understand. I have one character who is a newspaper reporter, but I know nothing about newspaper reporting. I don't want to make him cliche, because there is much about him that is not at all stereotypical. The interesting things about him not related to his job I can handle, but when I show him doing his job, how do I make it believable without making him a caricature of every other newspaper reporter I've ever read about in a novel? Any newspaper reporter here want to give me an assist? Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 05 Jul 2001 11:38:26 -0600 At 11:10 AM 7/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >. I know that most members of the Church recognize >that other members experience problems. But in addition to understanding >that reality, most of them also hold onto an ideal image of what it is to >be a good Mormon and unfortunately that ideal image somehow cannot include >struggles with normal problems. We don't need literature that reinforces >that idea. I've been reading a book called More Jesus, Less Religion. The author is a non-LDS Christian. He calls it a form of "toxic faith" to believe that if you're really good, God will protect you from harm and sorrow. I think he's right--and I think there's a tendency in the Church for people to believe that. It keeps people from seeking help--they think that by admitting they have problems, they're admitting that they're bad Mormons. I'd love to see some strong fiction that undercuts this notion. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: RE: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 05 Jul 2001 10:57:29 -0700 (PDT) --- Jacob Proffitt wrote: > I think you may be right up to a point. We > certainly shouldn't look at > a play or a book and make judgments about the author > and how morally > corrupt they must be to write such a thing. We just > don't know the > motivations of the authors enough to assign blame or > divine motivation. > But I think we need to consider very carefully a > presumption of good > will. If a play by an author disturbs me and is one > I judge carries a > morally depraved viewpoint (I'm perfectly > comfortable personally judging > a play, and while it is difficult not to extend the > judgment to the > author, it is not at all impossible) then I will be > likely not have a > presumption of good will for the next play by that > same author. > The messages have been flying back and forth on so many interesteting topics that I've been finding it difficult to come up with meaningful responses of my own, so I just wanted to mention that I appreciate that Jacob has been taking the time to represent his viewpoint in this and other threads. I for one need the occassional reminder that artistic discourse has a real effect---that it shapes people's lives, their way of thinking. I believe the 'orthodox' Mormon audience needs to develop better critical skills and be less easily offended, but I also believe that subsuming the demands of aesthetics to the larger goal of spreading the gospel is a valid position. I think most of us want the art and the spreading of the gospel to proceed in a harmonic way (which doesn't mean that notes in a minor key can't contribute to the overall harmonics)----each stream of discourse complementing, shaping and enriching the other. Frankly, I'm awed (but also find oddly humorous) by the conceit, the presumption that: 1) Mormons are trying to convert all those who will listen and 2) Mormons are trying to create meaningful, well-actualized art. As we move forward with both endeavors, my hope is that these two streams never become conflated, but that they also don't become parallel (or even divergent) tracks. I'd like to tread in both paths and am willing to throw my support and energy behind those with the same goal. I think that a midstream Mormon publisher, or the expansion of current publishing lines that work with authors that fit this category, is an important step in making sure the two remain entangled (in a healthy way). ~~William Morris, who, in one post, just used up his allotment of path/stream/flowing lines metaphors for the year. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amelia Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 05 Jul 2001 18:22:38 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Jacob Proffit wrote: > But you see, we *aren't* just like the rest of the world. We may be > part of the world every bit as much as others are, and we certainly are > as human as others are, but we have something that none of the others > have (the Gospel). And if that doesn't make a difference in your story, > then your story will be abandoned by Mormon readers. Jacob, you have struck the core of my argument. And you have struck a raw nerve with me. So here goes. Since when do Mormons have the Gospel and, let's say, Baptists do not? Last time I checked, there were still more copies of the Bible sold than any other book, worldwide. And if the Bible doesn't contain the Gospel of Christ, what does? It's time to take off our blinders. There are people who will never, in this life time, be Mormon. And they are every bit as good as you and me. And they have as much access to the Gospel as they need in order to be good people. It's time for Mormons to recognize that we in no way have the corner on the market of Gospel truth. Sure, we have some knowledge that other religions don't. That's important. That's very important. But, as I discovered one hot summer afternoon in a Baptist church, they have some knowledge that unfortunately we seem to not have--not because we *can't* have it but because we remain culturally blindfolded to it. It's time for Mormons to begin to understand that other people are not to be pitied because they don't have the Gospel. I know, this isn't much about Mormon lit but it's important. Jacob wrote: > > You can't be sinning and Christlike at the same time. Christlike is by > definition without sin. I think you could show someone who *has* sinned > and is Christlike. You could probably show that someone is Christlike > and still sins, but you'll have to show how that sin affects your > characters because fundamental to LDS theology is that sin carries > damage. If this is true, than we may as well all give up. We certainly *can* be sinning and be Christlike. If not then everyone alive is hopeless. No one, ever, with the exception of Jesus Christ himself, has lived a sinless life. And I would argue that it's not even done in brief stretches for most people. I can, and have, simultaneously loved my family dearly (Christlike) and hurt my family (sin). Just a small example; there are other larger ones. The point is that we constantly struggle to become more Christlike. But the fact that we sin does not mean that we are in not at all Christlike. I have many friends who are sinning but who somehow manage to love selflessly, to serve others, to seek truth, to be honest, and on and on. If that is not a combination of Christlike behavior with sinful behavior, then I'm not sure what it is. Of course sin affects us. Of course this must be represented. But it must be represented accurately, or I'd rather not have it represented at all. It affects us in infinite gradations, not just in black and white. And it's about time that we represented this accurately enough that we begin to truly understand the principle of non-judgment. So that we don't see a "sinner" who suffers the consequences of sin so completely that we utterly condemn them. And so that we aren't scared to death of sinning ourselves, so scared that we transfer the condemnation of other sinners onto ourselves. Sure we need to be wary of sinning. And yes, we need to be able to condemn sin when we commit it. But we don't need the kind of paralyzing condemnation that results from a black and white understanding of the nature of sin. and on the same subject to Chris Grant: > [...] > >I am also looking for the lattitude to create a work of art > >which may depict a "sinful" sexual encounter (rather than > >just allude to it in passing) with enough detail that the > >reader can understand the simultaneity of joy and sorrow > >experienced because of sin (and, no, I am not talking about > >pleasure or passing happiness and sorrow; I'm talking about > >JOY and sorrow). >Why did you put scare quotes around the word "sinful"? As >for wanting to tell a story conveying the notion that there >is joy in sin, it seems to me that there are few ideas more >likely to alienate the General Authorities and those who >value their opinions. I put "scare quotes" around the word "'sinful'" because we too often condemn something as sinful and only sinful without thinking more deeply than that about it. It's a surface categorization. It's easy. It's all too often thoughtless. Second point, I didn't say I wanted to convey the notion that there is joy in sinning. I said I want the latitude to represent the actuality that joy and sin can be conflated in the same act or set of acts. I want to be able to represent complex reality. As with anything, sin or sinful acts are complex sites of intersection. Sometimes sexual sin is not purely lascivious gratification of desire. Sometimes it actually has to do with love. And as such it can be an expression of love, just like it is between a husband and wife. The fact that it happens outside of the bonds of marriage may make it sinful but it does not negate the fact that it is a loving act, one which may and probably does bring joy. That creates a whole new situation than that of the situation of depraved sexual sin. A sinner who experiences joy in conjunction with their sin will have a very different struggle than he or she who does not. And I believe that there are those out there who face that situation. Why is it that we can't talk about such situations so that people can figure out how to deal with them outside the isolation of actually being in the situation? amelia parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 06 Jul 2001 03:23:37 -0500 At 12:10 PM 6/29/01, Eric Samuelsen wrote: >Certainly all aesthetic choices have moral ramifications, but the choice >to use profanity or nudity or to depict sexual behavior artistically isn't >freighted with more moral significance than the choice to have a character >say "I love you," or "let's eat," There's a solution, then. Whenever we have two characters meet and want to show that they are attracted to each other, instead of doing what the world would do, let's have them say to each other "I love you. Let's eat!" Then we can introduce the non-members in our audience to the concept of green Jell-o . . . -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Where to Advertise? Date: 05 Jul 2001 11:50:34 -0700 (PDT) --- "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > I seem to have left the impression with several > people that I was > gearing up for a campaign to get advertisements back > in the church > magazines. That will never happen, and I don't have > any desire to get it > to happen. I just want to know--where do we > advertise now? > This is a vexing problem and one that I've been thinking about on the consumer end of things (I'd love to see market research, etc., but for now I'm going off my exposure to Mormon-related advertising). If things continue to consolidate in the 'Mormon' Web site arena, then it's possible that it might be good to advertise with the survivors (Meridian Magazine? Mormon Village?)---Has anybody in book publishing/distribution approached any of these sites and heard they're marketing pitch? What sort of hit count do they get? I imagine that another good way would be to try and develop a list of interested readers and use direct mail combined with a list of approved retailers and/or e-commerce site (run by the distributor). But how does one get such a list? My wife and I found ourselves on the Living Scriptures mailing list---and yet neither one of us had done anything to trigger our name being added to the list. I was not pleased. I don't mind getting mailers, I just want to be the one who outs my name on the list. I would imagine that DB, Signature and other imprints have their own lists that they've built over the years, and considering the limited market, I'm sure they jealously and carefully guard their lists. Is anyone going to the LDSBA convention? Is anybody willing to schmooze around and get some of this info.? I for one would be happy if the LDSBA put together a unified fiction mailing that included titles from all the publishing houses and focused on both genre and literary fiction---something like what university publishing houses do with their scholarly titles--but with a little more sales copy. If they had to highlight Lund or Weyland titles in order to justify the expense, but also found room for the others, that would be fine with me. And, of course, if we could increase the circulation of _Irreantum_, then the advertising that it accepts would be that much more effective. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: Re: [AML] Paris Anderson Date: 05 Jul 2001 13:06:04 -0600 Dear Andrew Hall, I'm flattered that you would remember "Waiting for the Flash." I've pretty well forgotten about it myself. Though I have occationally thought of rewriting it and hand-binding a copy or two--just for personal use. You mention the element of psychology in the book and ask if I am trained in psychology. The only experiences I've had with psychology are occational fits of insanity. I've also learned a lot by learning the control and overcome the fits (post-traumatic stress disorder.) I'm pretty OK now--knock on wood. The novella "Claire: A Mormon Girl," is actually a five book series. I have also published a fairytale set in Utah among the children of the Hole-in -the- Rock expedition. It is entitled "A Large Blue Feather Trimmed with Crimson and Gold." I think it's probably the best thing I have ever done. It didn't do very well, though. Send me your address and I'll mail a case full to you This summer I'm going to publish the first book in a series for boys. It's entitled, "The Recollections of Private Seth Jackson, Company D, Mormon Battalion." It should be done this month. Mostly, though, I hand-binding some of my stuff. It takes a lot of time. I'm working on a picture-book entitled, "Tough Luck: Sitting-Bull's Friend." I'm kind of thinking it might go national. My eight-year-old son and I are working on a book together. It's called "Into the Cesspit." Other than that I'm just happy to bew here. Paris Anderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 05 Jul 2001 13:13:54 -0600 Lauramaery (Gold) Post writes: [Quoting someone else] >>But what's wrong with writing about good people. They're >>interesting too. > >I can think of no fictional character about whom that is true. For starters, how about Galadriel, Atticus Finch, Alyosha Karamazov, Prince Myshkin, Father Brown, Joe Pendleton from "Heaven Can Wait", Mrs. Cummings from Douglas Thayer's _Summer Fire_, most of the people in Eric Samuelsen's _Singled Out_, Ransom from C.S. Lewis's space trilogy, the fictionalized C.S. Lewis character in "Shadowlands", or the fictionalized Thomas More character in "A Man for All Seasons"? Too bad, too boring, or both? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 06 Jul 2001 03:47:51 -0600 Beth Hatch quotes Brigham Young: > "Though I mean to learn all that is in heaven, > earth, and hell. Do I need to commit iniquity > to do it? No. If I were to go into the bowels > of hell to find out what is there, that does not > make it necessary that I commit one evil. . ." > "If I do not learn what is in the world, from > first to last, somebody will be wiser than I am. > I intend to know the whole of it, both good and > bad. Shall I practice evil? No; neither have > I told you to practice it..." Beth, you must go back and look some more. Surely you missed a quote somewhere where B.Y. says: "...except for sex--don't read about that." Otherwise, these quotes seem to pretty much clinch my side of the argument. We should read about everything, good and bad, and the reading alone does not constitute a sin. (I think it's an obvious corollary that the writing also does not constitute a sin.) ================================ Jacob Proffitt wrote: > But you see, we *aren't* just like the rest of the world. We may be > part of the world every bit as much as others are, and we certainly are > as human as others are, but we have something that none of the others > have (the Gospel). And if that doesn't make a difference in your story, > then your story will be abandoned by Mormon readers. The difference is what we believe, and what we do about temptations, or what we do to fix things if we succumb to temptations, or what the consequences will be if we don't try to fix things. These are the differences that our fiction should reflect. Instead we're bean-counting the morality in our art. We don't ask if the message of the story is moral, we count up sex scenes and cuss words and judge morality from that. That doesn't reflect the true difference between Mormons and the rest of the world. That doesn't reflect much of anything but anal-retentivism. I invoke _Titanic_ again: leave the message in the film that sex is okay when you're in love, but cut that nude scene. Wrong difference to reflect. ============================================ Kathy Grant wrote: > Could you clarify what you meant when you > said, "I'm not sure we can turn the minds > of these hot teenagers much"? This is a > topic I'm very interested in, as YW counselor > working with the Mia Maids. The girls seem > to be simulaneously interested in and a little > embarrassed by talk of physical intimacy, and > they definitely have some distorted ideas > they've assimilated from the current cultural > climate. But they also love good stories--I'm > finding that's a wonderful way to reach them. Here in a nutshell is what I'm talking about. Embarrassment and distorted ideas from "the current cultural climate" about physical intimacy. ("Sex" for the euphemistically challenged.) The aforementioned climate would be the one that doesn't want to have any sex in its literature--it should all be behind closed doors where we can assume what's happening. (So what are the people with distorted ideas assuming?) What does this invoke in the girls? Interest. Except I'd put it: INTEREST! Curiosity made all the more urgent because they are getting no information to satisfy it, and are inheriting the embarrassment their parents feel, so they find it hard to seek out the information themselves from any reliable source. (Hence, distorted ideas.) Kathy says she's reaching them through stories. I can't help but wonder what stories she's using. Certainly nothing in the LDS repertoire, because there is no physical intimacy there. It's all behind closed doors where we don't see it (and therefore can't learn anything from it.) Let's talk about embarrassment for a moment. Is it a fair statement to say that the basic reason for wanting sex kept "behind closed doors" is embarrassment? Why else would people not want on-screen sex in their literature? It can't be because sex is a sin. Sex is usually not a sin; it's usually a glorious expression of love, the "very key" to the plan of salvation. But even when it is a sin, that can't be the reason. We can read about other sins depicted live. So why can't we see sex in our literature? Embarrassment, handed down from generation to generation--people unable to talk to other people, not even our closest loved ones, about one of the most basic parts of human existence. There's no logical reason for it--it's just a deeply conditioned emotional response that begins at a young age and is reinforced every time the subject comes up. Embarrassment is what keeps us from teaching our children what they need to know about their bodies and how they work; about intimate relations between spouses so they go into marriage without a clue. Literature that is embarrassed to tackle the subject head-on only perpetuates the problem. Why do you think that book about sex for LDS couples sold like hotcakes? Even though, by the reports I read, it was still substandard in its effectiveness for discussing the topic? A whole subculture starved for information about sex--the adults, mind you, not just MIA Maids--information that members of the subculture have every right to receive, but have nowhere to get it. And you try to tell me that hiding sex in my writing is a good thing. You try to accuse me of voyeurism when I put it in. I'm getting real tired of the accusation. I'm also beginning to wonder what sort of relationship those who make the accusation have with sex. Why does every invocation of sex seem voyeuristic to you? ============================== Anna Wight writes: > I guess you don't know my R.S. friends. Please elaborate! I'm not sure what you're getting at. ============================== Diann T. Read writes: > My personal concern, and perhaps Jeffrey's > as well, isn't the topic of sex itself but > the reason for and the manner of > *depicting* it. That's where "lowering > the bar" can occur if we don't use great > care. The rest of your message belies this claim, because your idea of the right way to depict sex is NOT to depict it. > *How* should sex be handled in LDS literature? > ...I personally don't believe it's necessary > to follow characters into a bedroom, whether > they're legally married or not, either to > depict sex as it should be, or the consequences > of it's misuse. See what I mean? So it IS the topic of sex itself that lowers the bar, according to you. > That, to me, is voyeurism, and a cheap, > worldly cop-out. There's that accusation again. I'm trying very hard to keep from responding the way I feel like responding, becaue I would clearly exceed AML-List guidelines if I did. > I believe both the righteous and unrighteous use > of sex can be demonstrated through the characters' > interactions with one another in non-sexual > settings, through their dialogue and behaviors. But can it be demonstrated _effectively_? Or will it be an artistic "cop-out" in the name of some misguided morality? > I think the bottom line is, what is our motivation > for depicting sex? Why ask this question? You already answered it: voyeurism and a worldly cop-out. What other possible motive could there be? > Is it truly to uplift others, to increase their > understanding and appreciation for this sacred > aspect of our lives? Or is it merely to titillate, > to compete with worldly entertainments? Speak for yourself. As for me, I am quite capable of discussing sex without titillation or self-serving efforts to compete with the world. > That, I think, is the core issue. No, it's not. You've presented two extremes and completely ignored the vast spectrum in between. That's side-stepping the core issue, not confronting it. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Value of Mormon Romance (was: McCLOUD, _Kirtland_) Date: 05 Jul 2001 14:42:02 -0600 At 12:59 PM 7/2/01 -0700, you wrote: >The other day I picked up an old Ensign magazine at DI that had an article >on the writing of romance fiction. I haven't read it in its entirety yet, >but skimming it, I see the writer questions the quality of LDS romance >fiction. I think it might have something to do with the subject we've been hammering on the list for a while--the tendency for LDS writers ( or their publishers) to hesitate to show the human flaws in their characters. Dutcher did it right in his two movies--Mormons were sometimes good and sometimes not. For example, a missionary fell for the poison in anti-Mormon literature. A non-LDS viewer might see that as his breaking away from his brainwashing, but the point is, the LDS characters were unique in themselves, and truly human. The weak missionary is balanced by the healing missionary. Wow. If you're going to have a romance, you've got to have sexual tension. You don't have to have fornication, but you have to have two people who are powerfully attracted to each other. Romance readers are perfectly happy with characters who choose to control those urges until the appropriate time. But it takes more than having majored in the same thing at BYU to match a romantic match. Biology has to be in there somewhere. I would like to see a romance featuring LDS characters sell in the national market--one written as a traditional romance, not as a showpiece for Molly and Michael Mormon. I recently read an historical romance featuring a Jewish heroine, and it worked wonderfully. The Rothschilds basically saved Wellington's butt during the Napoleonic Wars, making sure under dangerous circumstances that the troops got paid. The heroine helped them do so, and the story was quite adventurous. A Mormon historical romance, of course, would have to come later in time, and the Victorian Age makes me shudder. WWII romances are becoming popular--I'll bet a really good story could be told within that venue. Sayyyyy. . . . . barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 06 Jul 2001 10:30:22 -0600 Jacob, on the subject of the presumption of good will. >We certainly shouldn't look at >a play or a book and make judgments about the author and how morally >corrupt they must be to write such a thing. We just don't know the >motivations of the authors enough to assign blame or divine motivation. >But I think we need to consider very carefully a presumption of good >will. If a play by an author disturbs me and is one I judge carries a >morally depraved viewpoint (I'm perfectly comfortable personally judging >a play, and while it is difficult not to extend the judgment to the >author, it is not at all impossible) then I will be likely not have a >presumption of good will for the next play by that same author. I basically agree with this, although I think I'm maybe a bit less = inclined to judge the morality of a work of fiction. I certainly do know = works that carry what I consider a morally depraved viewpoint, but I also = know people who disagree strenuously with me about the moral depravity of = the work in question. And the question I've been wrestling with is this; = to what extent does a judgment about a work of art extend to include those = who admire it? For me, the big musicals of the '40's and '50's are generally the sorts of = things I think about when I think about works with morally depraved = messages. I think The King and I is a great example. I find the very = notion of a Victorian woman bringing 'civilization' to a ruler of Siam, = which is one the oldest and greatest cultures in the world, utterly = appalling. I think the whole musical is the purest expression of cultural = imperialism imaginable. I just detest the whole thing. But I suspect = that most members of the Church disagree. I think most members of the = Church think Rogers and Hammerstein (or Lerner and Loewe or any of the = rest of them) musicals represent theatre at its finest, that they = represent a wholesome kind of entertainment that we've unfortunately lost, = that the decline of moral values started with Who's Afraid of Virginia = Woolf and continued through David Mamet and Sam Shepherd and Harold Pinter = and all the rest of them. All of whom I love. So there we are. I don't = want to judge most Mormons, Mormons like, for example, my parents and my = wife's parents and pretty much all the people in my ward, people who like = South Pacific and The King and I and Oklahoma and Brigadoon, all of which = I loathe. And yet my feelings of detestation run pretty deep, as deeply = as their feelings that those are all good shows and that contemporary = theatre is a cesspool. =20 I still think the best solution is to say that I'm no longer going to be = in the business of declaring works of art moral or immoral. I can say = that I'm troubled by some of the implications of certain works of art. = But I can't see any way around this. I can't see how I can say "The King = and I is racist" without saying "my parents, who like The King and I, are = racist." =20 Back to the presumption of good will, though, I think it runs deeper than = Jacob suggests. I think I should presume good will in the authors of = works I dislike. I think I should presume that Rogers and Hammerstein did = not intend to create a work of cultural imperialism; that at some level, = their respect and admiration for Siamese culture informed their work, but = that they were artists writing at a time and place where imperialist = values were more or less inescapable. South Pacific is a better example; = they were obviously trying to create an anti-racism musical. ("You have = to be carefully taught" couldn't make their intentions clearer.) But the = result is: a racist work. Now, I'm also going to try to presume good will even to the works of = authors I don't generally like. Obviously, a reputation means something. = I don't like the films of Randall (The Blue Lagoon) Kleiser. I would have = to be drawn kicking and screaming into any other film by the guy. But . . = . 'if there is ANYTHING . . . of good report . . . we seek after these = things.' Seek, active verb. =20 =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell Hunt" Subject: Re:[AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 06 Jul 2001 11:56:18 -0500 "Sharlee Glenn" worte >I wrote back and said that the last >thing I wanted to do was perpetuate erroneous stereotypes of Native >Americans. In fact, one of the major themes my story concerns itself with >is the debunking of such sterotypes. "On the other hand," I wrote, "I did >not attempt to gloss over the very real problem of alcoholism among the Ute >Indians." I know exactly what you mean. I grew up within the original borders of the Ute Indian Reservation in eastern Utah. My Great-Great-Grandfather homesteaded a portion of the Ute Indian Reservation that was made available for homesteading in about 1906. I grew up on a portion of that original homestead just northwest of Roosevelt. Much of my extended family still lives there. I personally saw Ute Indian kids in high school not doing the work that they were fully capable of doing, simply because their friends accused them of "being white." It's was an interesting sub-culture to watch while growing up. The problem spoken of by the publisher may be a cultural misunderstanding that arose because they do not know the area. More about this below... >So, back to your original question: "Why would any author who is good >enough to have his work published in the "outside" publishing world come to >a Mormon publisher . . .?" Perhaps because only a Mormon publisher allows >for certain realities to be represented at all. This is changing, I think. >But slowly, and with great resistance in some corners. Still, the fact >remains that many New York publishers simply aren't interested in what some >of us want to write about--our Mormonism. I think that's exactly why some of us aren't currently interested in the mainstream market, but could very well break into it if we tried. I, for one, want to write about who I am -- and I am LDS. I want others to understand who I am. "Outsiders" may have difficulty seeing who I am because of a cultural difference. I write for passion first, to sell second. I would rather write something that I'm passionate about and sell only a few copies than write something I don't give a darn about and sell a million copies. (Oh wait, did I say a million? Maybe I would for a million! ;) ) It's part of being true to yourself. There are mainstream LDS writers out there who don't put any LDS material in their writing. Doesn't that kind of feel like they sold "us" out? (Not trying to sound critical here.) And there are writers like Orson Scott Card, who do write about LDS material, but yet in the mainstream market. And yet if he wants to write about real LDS themes, he has to publish under LDS labels. So, as I see it, this is the bottom line: Writing for the LDS market greatly limits your audience and circulation, but may provide more satisfaction. Writing for the mainstream market may sell more copies, but it may also greatly limit the scope of your material and satisfaction in writing it. It seems to me to be that simple. It's kind of like bearing your testimony. It may be an appropriate thing to do in sacrament meeting "among friends," but you certainly wouldn't do it in a national medium, like on TV. It's just not the right place to express your innermost, honest feelings. >Sharlee Glenn >glennsj@inet-1.com Darvell Hunt Saratoga Springs, UT _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 06 Jul 2001 10:53:04 -0600 On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 09:22:15 -0600, J. Scott Bronson wrote: >Apparently there is an explanation out there. Frankly, I'm surprised >none of us have heard it. I was explaining this all to a friend the >other day and he said that in his ward a letter was read to them saying >that the reason the fiction is being removed is that too many members = are >just unable to distinguish between fiction and reality when it comes to >church publications. Too much fiction, apparently, is being quoted as >doctrine, or near-doctrine from the pulpit. Yes, why haven't any of us heard this letter? (I've never heard fiction being quoted as doctrine, though I've heard stories I knew to be = fictional recounted as true events. I think this falls under the heading of Urban Legend, though.) >Yet, how many times have we heard about the Steeds from the pulpit? How >many Mormons are desperately trying to find a link to the Steeds in = there >genealogy? Let's see: Number of times I've heard about the Steeds in sacrament meeting talks: = 0 Number of times people have told me it's happened: 10 Number of those times which were first-hand accounts (i.e. the person telling me had actually heard it themselves): Unknown, less than 5 As a matter of interest, I'd like everyone who's actually heard someone = cite the Steed family (or any of the other characters from The Work and the = Glory series) as real historical figures to respond here. First-hand accounts only, please, and I don't care if it was in a talk or in conversation. = I'd like to know how serious the problem really is. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Midstream Mormon Publisher Date: 06 Jul 2001 11:21:45 -0600 Chris Grant asked me some most provocative questions in a recent post, = which, thanks to July 4, I've just gotten around to reading. Let me take = them one at a time. Me: >>Certainly all aesthetic choices have moral ramifications, but >>the choice to use profanity or nudity or to depict sexual >>behavior artistically isn't freighted with more moral >>significance than the choice to have a character say "I love >>you," or "let's eat," or wear a blue jumper rather than a >>pink one. Chris: >Is it your impression that there would not be significant >disagreement with this assertion among the General >Authorities? Probably. What I was doing was reflecting what I think is a fairly = mainstream consensus among what we might call 'the artistic community.' = And it's a point of view that's worth paying some attention to. General = Authorities are not artists; they are not conversant with the various = discourses taking place in the worlds of artists. They just know what = they don't like. I personally find it hard to argue with the idea that the aesthetic = choices made by artists are morally neutral. The potential moral impact = of any work of art has to do with context. Surely no one would say that = the choice to compose a concerto in D minor is less moral than the choice = to compose it in E major. So why would the choice to use the word on the = top of page 116 in your dictionary be less moral than the choice to use = the word on the top of page 311? Words convey meaning only within a = context, and it is the combination of words, not the words themselves, = that have a moral impact.=20 =20 >For example, on more than one occasion in >General Conference, mention has been made of a survey of >"influential television writers and executives in Hollywood" >which showed that they tended to hold more liberal views on >sexual behavior than the American public in general. >Commenting on this survey, President Hinckley said that these >writers "are educating us in the direction of their own >standards, which in many cases are diametrically opposed to >the standards of the gospel." =20 Quite so. This supports my assertion. These are television writers we're = talking about here. We're not talking about graphic depictions of sexual = activity or sexually provocative nudity. We're also not talking about the = strongest kinds of strong language. We're talking about words, pretty = innocent and inoffensive words, used in a certain way, in a certain = context, expressing a certain point of view. It's that point of view that = President Hinckley finds objectionable, not the words used to express it, = which are, and must be, morally neutral in and of themselves. In the = context of a television sit-com, the most offensive line of dialogue might = very well be "I love you, darling." Especially if it's followed immediatel= y by the line "so what does it matter that we're not married?" By the = same token, a play or film with three hundred repetitions of the F-word = may very well express a point of view wholly compatible with the gospel. = Glengarry Glen Ross comes immediately to mind as an example of such a = play.=20 >It appears to me that >President Hinckley saw more moral significance in their >decisions regarding sexual matters than in their decisions >regarding jumper colors. Right. But jumper colors could very well be a very important part of the = depiction of sexual misconduct. For good or ill. >Certainly we should try to make our judgments righteous, but >should we really try to avoid judgment altogether? Isn't the >way we make sense out of the world largely by trying to >understand *why* things happen? In most of the fiction I've >read, the author has seemed to be trying to give us insight >into his/her characters' motivations. Do most authors wish us >to confine the insight thus gained to the realm of nonentities >wherein their characters dwell, or are they often trying to >say something indirectly about the motivations of real people? >And if artists can say things about others' motivations, why >can't others say things about artists' motivations? Because authors are a kind of deity to their characters; that's why we = talk about 'limited omniscience' as a point of view, as a writer's tool. = We can't say anything about an artist's motivations because we don't know = their hearts the way they know their character's hearts. We don't know = why they wrote that scene, or why they chose to have their characters say = that word. We just have the result. We can judge how it made us feel, = and what it made us think about. But we can only guess if that was what = the artist intended. And I cannot think of a single instance--not = one--where an artist created anything intending to do evil in the = world.=20 This summer, one of my students met Neil Labute after we saw Neil's play. = And she said to him "I have real problems with Bash. I have real problems = with Mormon characters beating a gay guy to death." And Neil responded = "I'd be worried about anyone who didn't have a problem with it." = DEPICTION DOES NOT MEAN ADVOCACY! >One of the General Authorities commenting on the >aforementioned survey of television writers was Elder Ballard >in the April 1989 General Conference. He said: =20 > "I express my own and this Church's disappointment, >disagreement, and even outrage with television that turns > our attention and sometimes our inclinations toward > violence, self-serving greed, profanity, disrespect for > traditional values, sexual promiscuity, and deviance." >Is the outrage expressed by Elder Ballard appropriate? Sure. He perceives certain works of art, especially pop art, TV, that in = his opinion are inclining people towards sin. That is to say, they depict = immoral human behavior in a context that seems to reward it, or show that = it's not really immoral, or that makes it look exciting and fun and worth = participating in. And he's outraged by such artistic depictions. And I = agree. I could make my own list of television programs that do all that. = And you could make your list and Thom could, and D. Michael could, and = maybe there'd be some overlap. But I completely, wholeheartedly, = enthusiastically agree with Elder Ballard that if we think a work of art = is driving us to sin, we should end our involvement with it; that certain = works of popular entertainment are bad for us.=20 Bear in mind, he's talking about television in this quote. That means = he's NOT talking about shows with the F word, or shows with nudity or even = much violence. TV is milder, less explicit in all those regards. It's = also--forgive me Philo--shallower and dumber, I think. Generally, with = some great exceptions. (The Simpsons and West Wing!) Me: >>We're commanded to learn from the 'best books.' I've been >>thinking a lot about D & C 88 lately, mostly because I just >>taught it in Sunday School. >What was the reaction of your class members to the lesson >manual's quote from President Benson about what books *not* >to read? We never got to that quote, actually. Had way too much fun talking about = which books we should read. I much prefer to take a positive approach in = class. =20 >>I can't imagine that the Lord wouldn't want us to gain from >>the insights into the human condition offered by . . . >>Stephen King. >I guess the question is: Are the insights worth the price?=20 For me, sure. Remember, Stephen King was only one writer in a long list = on my post. I think Stephen King writes with great insight and clarity = and intelligence about childhood and children and adolescence, for = example. I think he's a terrific YA writer. His adults, I tend to find a = bit less convincing. Besides, King is a big-time black/white, good/evil = kind of writer. He writes Evil with a capital E, and always, without = exception, shows Good overcoming it, though always with a cost. Darn good = writer. >In a 1983 BYU Devotional, H. Burke Peterson voiced what has >been a frequent theme among General Authorities: > "As we go through life, we may be exposed to stories, >pictures, books, jokes, and language that are filthy and >vulgar, or to television shows, videos, or movies that are >not right for us to see or hear. Our minds will take it >all in. They have the capacity to store whatever we give >them. Unfortunately, what our minds take in they keep, >sometimes forever." Sure. Absolutely true. Wanna see my list? There are movies I wished I = hadn't seen, many of them rated G and PG, and lots of movies I'm delighted = I saw, most of them rated R. There are surely books I wish I hadn't read, = and authors I plan to avoid in the future. All this is true. I do think, = however, that this list of proscribed materials differs from person to = person. Has to be. =20 I have a student, a remarkable woman, who was very badly abused as a = child. She cannot watch Laurel and Hardy movies. She cannot watch the = Three Stooges. She finds Chaplin and Buster Keaton unbearable. She = became physically ill watching Home Alone. She is simply incapable of = understanding or responding positively to comic violence. I admire this = woman tremendously, understand where she's coming from, and respect her. = And I watch the Stooges whenever possible. The principles you've = articulated from the General Authorities are just that, broad-based = principles. And I subscribe to them. And also continue to insist that = the materials used by artists, words, images and bodies, are, all of them, = morally neutral. =20 Eric Samuelsen =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: [AML] Mormon Publishing Co-op Date: 06 Jul 2001 11:19:10 -0700 (PDT) --- Amelia Parkin wrote: > Understood: publishing is essentially a commercial > enterprise, not > necessarily an artistic one. I've been meaning to > comment on this for a > few days but everyone else seems to have done so > very nicely so I haven't. > But here goes my two bits: of course a publisher > must make a profit of > some sort--something to at least allow them to meet > the costs of the > business and of maintaining their own lives. What I > see in the list, at > least hinted at and in places articulated, is the > need for a co-op. > Mormons tend to be a bit scared of that idea > sometimes but I'm not. > What's to keep us from taking D. Michael's research > about POD's seriously? > Why shouldn't list members who are, while all busy > people, well-educated > and capable of helping edit new books offer to do > so? I would. Together > we could publish novels and poetry and stories and > essays. Sure the > output would be small. Sure it's a sacrifice. but > I guess this is where > we decide how important it is. I think that this is an interesting idea Amelia. The only well functioning co-ops that I'm familiar with are generally located in the same geographic area. Is it possible to have a viable co-op where there's a geographic spread? I suppose if as Craig Huls suggested you stick to e-texts---otherwise shipping costs could eat up the funds. It sounds like a good idea, but I still think the main thing is to develop a strong connection with LDS booksellers and also take on more of the burden of marketing/pr (i.e. rather than leaving it up to the retailers or mainstream publishing houses, who even if they produce 'literary' (and I include in that well-written fiction of any genre) fiction are probably less likely to market it aggresively. Here's an intriguing idea that I read about somewhere but I can't remember where: A group of 10 women authors are forming a partnership to publish and sell their works. What is unique about their business model is that each book will be treated like a separate enterprise. For each title they will find investors willing to finance its production and marketing. These investors will then receive a percentage of the sales. I wish I could find the article because I don't recall the other key details of the plan. I assume that the partnership would take a cut of each project to put into office support (fax and phone lines, copy machines, someone to coordinate things with the distributor, etc.). I guess in some ways this model is similar to getting financing for film, and considering Richard Dutcher's experience trying to find financing for _God's Army_ this model might not work for the Mormon world, but still it could offer some of the backbone support needed but leave a lot up to the individual authors. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN LDS Author Wins 3rd Award For "Stories of Young Pioneers": Kent Larsen Date: 06 Jul 2001 18:01:48 -0500 Kent Larsen 6Jul01 US NY NYC A2 [From Mormon-News] LDS Author Wins 3rd Award For "Stories of Young Pioneers" NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- LDS Young Adult author Violet Kimball has received a third award for her book, "Stories of Young Pioneers: In Their Own Words," making the book one of the most awarded LDS books of the past year. The most recent awards are from the magazine Foreword, a book review magazine, which gave "Stories of Young Pioneers" their 2001 Book of the Year Award in Young Adult Non-fiction, and from the Independent Book Publishers Association, which made the title a finalist for the 2001 Juvenile Young Adult Nonfiction Independent Publishers Book Award. The book covers the experiences of young pioneers traveling through the west in the mid-nineteenth century and is written for young readers. Kimball's book earlier received a 2001 Spur Award, which recognizes the best in Western writing. "Stories of Young Pioneers" is Kimball's second book, following "Mormon Trail: Voyage of Discovery" which is accompanied by the photographs of her husband, Mormon historian Stanley B. Kimball. In a recent review in Booklist, reviewer Denise Wilms said that the book "can provide valuable curriculum support, and history teachers may find that selected details can spark a lively lesson." The publisher has also made available a 50 page teachers guide for using the book in the classroom. The Foreword Magazine award was presented on Saturday, June 2nd at the annual BookExpo America convention in Chicago, however, Kimball reports to Mormon News that she was not informed of the award, which her publisher learned about only after the convention was over. The Independent Publisher Book Award, given for the 19th year, and also presented at BookExpo America. It represents the best books among small, independent book publishers. See also: LDS Author Wins Spur Award http://www.mormonstoday.com/010309/A2VKimball01.shtml Stories of Young Pioneers In Their Own Words wins 3 Awards in 2001! http://www.mountainpresspublish.com/otherpages/HISTORY/bookpage/StoriYng. htm Foreword Magazine http://www.forewordmagazine.com/articles/2001/2001coverlinks.asp Independent Publisher Book Award http://www.independentpublisher.com/action.lasso?-Database=18news.fp3&-La yout=iparticle&-RecordID=37922&-Response=ipawrdetail.lasso&-Search >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Memoir of First African American Priest in Texas Published: Kent Larsen Date: 06 Jul 2001 18:09:46 -0500 Kent Larsen 5Jul01 US TX Aust A2 [From Mormon-News] Memoir of First African American Priest in Texas Published AUSTIN, TEXAS -- Less than two years after Allan Johnson Sr. died, his son, Allen Jr., has published his father's memoir, telling the story of the persecution an racism his father endured, how he joined the LDS Church, and his ordination to the priesthood on Father's Day, 1978. The self-published memoir has caught the attention of the local press in Austin, and his son says he is trying to get the book out to the LDS market as well. Allen Johnson Sr. was born in East Texas during the Great Depression. He joined the US Army in 1938 and in 1942 graduated from Field Artillery Officer Candidate School. But when he went to celebrate, he discovered there wasn't anywhere on base open to him, "When I thought about some place to go on the post," Johnson wrote in his memoir, "there was nowhere. As an officer, I would not be welcome at the Enlisted Men's Club, and as a black man, I was not allowed to go to the Officer's Club, so there was no place to go but home." During the rest of his 23-year Army career, Johnson saw other examples of the Army's institutionalized racism at the time, including one base where the Army built a separate golf course just for him and a fellow officer, rather than let them join the officer's club and use the officer's course. Still, in these cases, Johnson didn't speak out, "I figured doing a good job and keeping my mouth shut would be the best way to endure the discrimination with dignity." But he didn't always keep his mouth shut. He spoke out when white enlisted men failed to salute black officers and when he discovered that an Arizona base had segregated water coolers. These incidents affected him, Johnson wrote, "I will be scarred all my life because of the degrading treatment meted out to me." On his last tour of duty, in 1961, Johnson had an experience that changed the rest of his life. "I went to bed about 8 p.m. . . . but I fell asleep almost immediately. Then, in a vision or dream, I saw a very saintly looking person with long hair, dressed in a long white robe. He did not speak to me but gestured for me to follow him. When I tried, I woke up . . . I thought to myself that I had just had a unique spiritual experience, but I could not understand it." A friend suggested to Johnson's wife, Fannie, that they visit The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and ask them about the vision. Johnson was quickly spellbound by what he was taught there, "No one had ever caught my interest in the Gospel of Jesus Christ so completely as did those missionaries," Allen Sr. later explained. "Between the sixth and seventh lessons, I had the vision again while at home alone. This time, between me and the man I was to follow, was a fountain of clear, sparkling water. I could see him clearly . . . I was overwhelmed with joy . . . I felt the Holy Ghost had confirmed to me that the Gospel and the church I was studying were true." He soon asked to be baptized, but the missionaries explained to him that black men couldn't be ordained priests. Johnson paused, and then said, "I still want to be baptized; I will take care of the priesthood matter later." But 'taking care of the priesthood matter' meant 17 years of waiting. The leadership of the Greenville, Texas Ward and Stake called within hours of the announcement that all worthy male members of the Church could be ordained, and Johnson was made a priest on Father's Day of 1978. Allen Johnson Sr. died in October of 1999, soon after seeing a copy of the galley proofs of his memoir, which was edited by his son. Allen Johnson Jr. explains his father's, and his own, devotion to the LDS Church in terms of family, "You know you're in the right place, with the whole family of God. People there are looking out for one another, and that's part of our work . . . I think the church reflects the diversity of the country very well. Come to our ward one day, and you will see Hispanics, Asians, people from the islands . . . it's a rainbow." But Allen Johnson Jr. says that he and his father took different paths to gaining a testimony of the Church. While his father had a vision that gave him a testimony, his son had to work for it. "I'm an engineer and a scientist, so the Lord had to prove it to me in a way I understood." He paused, thought, and added with a laugh, "Well, the Lord doesn't have to prove anything. I had to prove it to myself." Johnson Jr. is highly accomplished himself. He retired from IBM in 1990 after 26 years of service and more than 30 patents and publications to found his own high-tech firm, Rainbow Analysis Systems Group. He holds a Ph.D. from the University of Texas at Austin, and also considers himself a poet, a black belt and a historical researcher. He currently serves as director of public affairs for the LDS Church in Round Rock, about 20 miles north of Austin. He told Mormon News that he is looking for a way to distribute his father's memoir, "Celia's Boy" to LDS bookstores. For now, the book is available at a couple of Austin bookstores, Book People and Hannah's Hand Cart, and by mail from The House of Johnson, 2900 W. Anderson Lane, #203, Austin, TX 78757. Sources: Faith of his father Austin TX American-Statesman 19Jun01 A2 http://www.rasgroup.com/about/faithofhisfather.shtml By John T. Davis: Special to the American-Statessman >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: Re: [AML] Literary LCD Date: 06 Jul 2001 23:10:21 -0600 (MDT) Quoting REWIGHT : > But isn't this already happening. Sort of. (see below) > Rachel Nunes wrote in her first > Ariana > book about a young woman who finds herself in an abusive drug addicted > relationship. Yorgeson in Secrets wrote about various forms of abuse > within > a ward, including child sexual abuse. Broken Covenat, published by > Deseret, > is a book about the affects of adultery. The Work and The Glory showed > one > of the main characters as a wife beater. Weyland (although many > people > don't like him) deals with real issues all the time. Rape being one > of > them. In Children of the Promise, Hughes deals with blood, gore, > starvation, rebellion, etc. In many instances, though, the endings are too tidy and the problems are too easily solved. In Anita Stansfield's contemporary romances, for example, her heroines go through all kinds of trials and learn to depend on the Lord...and the Lord always has a handsome, perfect man ready to help them pick up the pieces. (I'm sure she did it that way on purpose, but still.) Weyland is notorious for giving characters sudden changes of heart and suddenly making everything all better. Heck, even Ariana got out of her situation, went on a mission, and converted her parents and all her friends. I enjoyed reading many of these books, but I wouldn't say they're very realistic. _Broken Covenant_, though, I think is different. I think it does an excellent job of showing the huge, gradual effects of her one little act, as well as the long road back. But she and her husband make it. And they aren't granted some huge act of God to fix everything (e.g., killing her husband off in a car wreck and suddenly allowing her to run off with her boyfriend (except they will get married this time, 'cause she's repented) or even giving her husband and kids a sudden change of heart after she tearfully pleads for forgiveness). Nope, it's a long, tough road. But that's real. And the workings of the Spirit are still there, but they're real too. And she makes it. I haven't read Hughes yet, but I plan to sometime. I also liked Joshua in _The Work and the Glory_ and how he had so much space (nine books worth) to gradually grow and change. I thought it was done well. But then after he was baptized, he seemed to lose that fiery edge to his personality that had always made him interesting. I didn't like that part. > Yes, I've read a few sappy "feel good" novels where the heroine has to > severely repent because she's sexually attracted to a man, so she ends > up > moving back home. I read one short story in a book that was a lesson > in > whether you should kiss on the first date. In that same book was a > lesson > about how you should keep your apartment clean in case that special guy > pops > over. Yes it made me roll my eyes and say "oh brother". Thank goodness we're past this stage. Yes, I think LDS fiction has come a long way. And it does deal more with real issues. I guess what I'd like to see is more real characters dealing with them in a more real way. --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cedar Fort Press Release (by way of Ronn Blankenship ) Subject: [AML] MN CFI novelists make strong showing on list of "LDS Date: 07 Jul 2001 00:17:21 -0500 From Mormon-News: See footer for instructions on joining and leaving this list. Do you have an opinion on this news item? Send your comment to letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com CFI novelists make strong showing on list of "LDS Classics" SPRINGVILLE, UTAH -- BYU English professor Richard Cracroft has published a list in Meridian Magazine of what he considers the "classics" of LDS-based fiction. The criteria he used were simple: the books must be well-written, reader-tested novels that "will delight, uplift, inspire and entertain most LDS readers." Dr. Cracroft wrote, "These novels have risen to the top of the heap as the books that students like to read, discuss and write about." Several novels that Dr. Cracroft selected are published by Cedar Fort Incorporated. They include the works of two long-established authors, Lee Nelson and Marilyn Brown, as well as the novels of two up-and-coming writers, Chad Daybell and Alan Mitchell, whose efforts have made an impact on the LDS market. The following are the CFI novels Dr. Cracroft specifically mentioned: * The Storm Testament by Lee Nelson. This prolific author's crowning achievement is this remarkable eight-volume tale that follows Dan Storm and his family from Missouri to the Rocky Mountains. Their adventures among the Mountain Men and the Indians are filled with unforgettable scenes. This timeless Western series has touched the lives of countless readers. See: More about "The Storm Testament" by Lee Nelson at Cedar Fort or learn more about "The Storm Testament" by Lee Nelson at Amazon.com * The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass by Marilyn Brown. The noted author of "The Earthkeepers Trilogy" and "Statehood" has recently written a fact-based novel about the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the challenges of plural marriage. Dr. Cracroft writes, "Some people just don't like novels about massacres and polygamy; this is a wonderful handling of both sensitive topics." See: More about "The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass" by Marilyn Brown at Cedar Fort or learn more about "The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass" by Marilyn Brown at Amazon.com * The Emma Trilogy by Chad Daybell. These exciting time-travel novels follow the adventures of a modern-day family whose teenage children find themselves transported to different points in the LDS Church's history -- and future. Each volume subtlety teaches one of the three missions of the church. -- "An Errand for Emma" places Emma Dalton among the pioneers in the 1860s, where Brigham Young lends her a hand in solving a long-lost family mystery. See: More about "An Errand for Emma" by Chad Daybell at Cedar Fort or learn more about "An Errand for Emma" by Chad Daybell at Amazon.com -- "Doug's Dilemma" begins as a missionary novel, but quickly turns into an intense race against time as Doug Dalton finds himself in 1944, where he must save his grandfather during World War II. See: More about "Doug's Dilemma" by Chad Daybell at Cedar Fort or learn more about "Doug's Dilemma" by Chad Daybell at Amazon.com -- "Escape to Zion" ties together the trilogy in stunning fashion as Emma enters the future just a few months before the Second Coming. She survives the evils of Salt Lake City with the help of one of the Three Nephites and travels to New Jerusalem. While there she takes part in the grand meeting at Adam-ondi-Ahman and witnesses the Second Coming. See: More about "Escape to Zion" by Chad Daybell n at Cedar Fort or learn more about "Escape to Zion" by Chad Daybell at Amazon.com * Angel of the Danube by Alan Mitchell. This charming novel is the retrospective missionary journal of Elder Barry Monroe, lately of the Austria Vienna Mission. Elder Monroe attempts to come to grips with the gap between an ideal mission and a mission where one's message is constantly rejected. This is a funny but basically serious novel about a young man's salvation journey/mission. It is one of the surprisingly few missionary novels in Mormon literature, and it is certainly one of the best. See: More about "Angel of the Danube" by Alan Mitchell at Cedar Fort or learn more about "Angel of the Danube" by Alan Mitchell at Amazon.com You can read Dr. Cracroft's entire article at http://meridianmagazine.com/classicscorner/010515lds.html Source: CFI novelists make strong showing on list of "LDS Classics" Cedar Fort Press Release 4Jul01 A2 http://www.cedarfort.com/classics.html >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: [AML] Article on Sister Songwriters in the Church Date: 07 Jul 2001 09:39:57 -0600 Hi Listers, Here is the URL to an interesting article on LDS sister songwriters by Ron Simpson, Utah Songwriter Advocate and General Manager of BYU's Tantara Records. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/music/010705simple.html Steve Perry -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN New Products: New History Books Look at Martyrdom, Utah History: Kent Larsen Date: 07 Jul 2001 13:34:21 -0500 History: Kent Larsen 4Jul01 US NY NYC A4 [From Mormon-News] New History Books Look at Martyrdom, Utah History NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- This week's new books include several that cover various aspects of Mormon history. These books include two looks at the martyrdom, an early welsh-language publication, and lawless elements in Utah history. Also, Blaine Yorgason has written a new novel, looking at loyalty, faith and integrity. Maasai Publishing author Ted Gibbons has released two different views of the martyrdom. The first, "Road to Carthage," looks at the murder of Joseph Smith through the eyes of his enemies, tracing their movements and motivations leading up to the tragic night in Carthage. "Sealing the Testimony," Gibbons second book, looks at the martyrdom from the perspective of Willard Richards, using his own words to describe the last days of the Prophet. Meanwhile, BYU has published a translation of early LDS missionary Dan Jones' "Zion's Trumpet," a welsh-language newspaper that rebutted anti-Mormon stories in local newspapers and gave news of missionary work in Wales in 1849. "Utah's Lawless Fringe" is a collection of 'true crime' stories from the Utah Historical Quarterly, many of which involve Mormons in some way. New and recent products: Zion's Trumpet: 1849 Welsh Mormon Periodical by Ronald D. Dennis Brigham Young University Book; University Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Author $34.95 The first twelve issues of early LDS missionary Dan Jones' Zion's Trumpet, a welsh-language newspaper he started to rebut anti-Mormon stories carried in local newspapers. The book presents the newspaper in a translated version that mimics their original appearance and tells the remarkable story of early missionary efforts in Wales. The Shadowtaker by Blaine M. Yorgason Maasai Publishing Book; LDS Publisher; Fiction; Mormon Author $11.95 Novel about a businessman's encounter with an old man who helps when the businessman's jeep breaks down in the desert. The old man claims to have been given the businessman's shadow and has private information about the businessman's past. Yorgason unravels the mystery of the Shadowtaker and in the process explores faith, loyalty, integrity and consequences. Road to Carthage by Ted Gibbons Maasai Publishing Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $11.95 A behind-the-scenes study of Old Nauvoo and those that plotted the murder of Joseph Smith. Sealing the Testimony by Ted Gibbons Maasai Publishing Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $11.95 Using the words of Willard Richards, witness to the martyrdom, Gibbons tells the story of Joseph Smith's final days and the events that sealed his testimony with his blood. Utah's Lawless Fringe: Stories of True Crime by Stanford J. Layton Signature Books Book; Academic Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Subject $18.95 Layton's collection of readings from the Utah Historical Quarterly, which he edits, includes many stories involving Mormons from 1880s tax collector Lemuel Redd, who had to strong-arm renegade cattlemen, to the attempts to arrest Brigham Young and the admissibility of divine revelation as courtroom evidence. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] Literary LCD Date: 07 Jul 2001 22:28:21 -0000 I believe the book you read was called `A Promise of Forever' by Anita Stansfield. I really liked this story, too. Tami Miller >From: Barbara Hume >At 12:51 PM 6/30/01 -0700, you wrote: > >One Mormon novel I read (I don't remember who wrote it, so apologies if >it's yours) had a woman dying of cancer. She still had young >children. Her sister came to stay to help take care of the kids and other >things so the young husband could continue working and bringing in an >income. As the novel progressed, the wife died and the sister stayed to >help. Then she and the husband found themselves becoming attracted to each >other--strongly attracted. > >I liked this book in part because it did have substance. [snip] _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 07 Jul 2001 22:02:33 -0600 Melissa Proffit wrote: In other words, stories that really happened are more valuable than the made-up kind. While I have whole-heartedly agreed with the dismay everyone is expressing over the removal of fiction from the church mags, Melissa's comment somehow turned on a lightbulb in my brain. Here's the result: I remember the backlash from some at least one Church video, _Together Forever_, which portrayed married couples in interview-type monologues discussing their family issues (like the one where the child was hit by a car.) A lot of people were touched by the video, then felt hugely betrayed when they realized the stories were all made up (the actors weren't married, and not all were church members, for that matter, if I remember correctly). This thought brought on a second one, from when I was in the Primary presidency. I no longer have the handbook, but there was something in it about never portraying fantasy or fiction in Sharing Time (Santa or the Easter bunny would be out, but having Brother Smith come to portray Moses would be fine). The reasoning behind the policy, if I understand it, was that the children needed to know unequivocally that everything taught to them at church was true, and not mix up pretend stuff. I wonder if this has anything to do with the new magazine policy. I'm sure it has something to do with why they used to label the stories, "based on a true event" and "fiction" (which, frankly, I appreciated--I like to know when something really happened.) Just a few thoughts as to the "whys" of the whole situation, although I'm still in mourning like everyone else. Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] McCLOUD, _Kirtland_ (comp) Date: 09 Jul 2001 12:20:39 -0500 >From katie@aros.net Thu Jul 05 13:06:55 2001 Quoting Jeff Needle : > I will have to admit that I own about half a dozen of McCloud's books > but > don't recall ever finishing any of them. The above example may > explain > this. Her prose is often tortured and difficult to follow. Her > romantic > style is also not one I enjoy much. I remember reading one about ten years ago and enjoying it, and I don't remember the prose being this stilted. But ten years is a long time. I was tempted many times not to finish _Kirtland_. I could only take it a few pages at a time. > There must be an audience to which she appeals, or she wouldn't be > publishing so many books (this is an assumption on my part, of course). > I'm > wondering just who this audience is. I've been wondering the same thing, actually... She has about twenty books out, or something like that, but you don't hear much about her the way you do Weyland or Lund or anyone else with lots of books out. I don't see her books hyped the way theirs are, anyway. > The other day I picked up an old Ensign magazine at DI that had an > article > on the writing of romance fiction. I haven't read it in its entirety > yet, > but skimming it, I see the writer questions the quality of LDS romance > fiction. This was in an Ensign?? Which issue was it? This would be an interesting article to read online. Thanks for your comments! --Katie Parker >From kdenos@juno.com Sat Jul 07 09:36:22 2001 I've got a McCloud book and have read others. I happen to like her work, though I don't think that I could ever copy her style of prose. But then I'm not Susan Evans McCloud either. Konnie Enos - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 09 Jul 2001 12:17:47 -0700 D. Michael Martindale responded to Kathy Grant, in part, as follows: > Kathy Grant wrote: > > > Could you clarify what you meant when you > > said, "I'm not sure we can turn the minds > > of these hot teenagers much"? This is a > > topic I'm very interested in, as YW counselor > > working with the Mia Maids. The girls seem > > to be simulaneously interested in and a little > > embarrassed by talk of physical intimacy, and > > they definitely have some distorted ideas > > they've assimilated from the current cultural > > climate. But they also love good stories--I'm > > finding that's a wonderful way to reach them. > > Here in a nutshell is what I'm talking about. Embarrassment and > distorted ideas from "the current cultural climate" about physical > intimacy. ("Sex" for the euphemistically challenged.) The aforementioned > climate would be the one that doesn't want to have any sex in its > literature--it should all be behind closed doors where we can assume > what's happening. (So what are the people with distorted ideas > assuming?) For the record, Kathy does not live in Utah. She lives in the same northern California city in which I live, though in a different ward. The "current cultural climate" to which she refers is not the one that in which most of the list members reside. Rather, it is one in which LDS teenagers are a minority in their high school, in which non-Mormon mass media influences predominate, in which modesty is not valued, and in which the sanitized, euphemistic attitude that you decry has a negligible, if not non-existent, effect. > > What does this invoke in the girls? Interest. Except I'd put it: > INTEREST! Curiosity made all the more urgent because they are getting no > information to satisfy it, and are inheriting the embarrassment their > parents feel, so they find it hard to seek out the information > themselves from any reliable source. (Hence, distorted ideas.) > > Kathy says she's reaching them through stories. I can't help but wonder > what stories she's using. Certainly nothing in the LDS repertoire, > because there is no physical intimacy there. It's all behind closed > doors where we don't see it (and therefore can't learn anything from > it.) You know, D. Michael, my friend Kathy was not trying to argue with you. She was posing a sincere, and nonconfrontational, question to the list at large. I don't think it's fair to find fault with her, or to jump to the conclusion that she's doing something of which you'd disapprove or find foolish. Especially when you haven't taken the time to understand the context from which she asked her question. > And you try to tell me that hiding sex in my writing is a good thing. > You try to accuse me of voyeurism when I put it in. I'm getting real > tired of the accusation. I'm also beginning to wonder what sort of > relationship those who make the accusation have with sex. Why does every > invocation of sex seem voyeuristic to you? Wait a minute, D. Michael, there was nothing in Kathy's post which even remotely accused you of anything. To whom are you referring when you say "you try to tell me ... etc."? If you're addressing Kathy, then I think you owe her an apology. If you're addressing the list as a whole, then you should be more precise in how you phrase things, rather than using words which sound like you yourself are making a direct accusation of another individual. For the record, I'm the person who first referred to "voyeurism" in these threads. But I did not do so in an accusatory way. I was, rather, talking about general principles and phenomena. If you doubt that, go back and re-read my June 30th post. I was not trying to find fault with you or anybody else, nor did I try to diss anybody's works of writing. I was not trying to cast aspersions on anyone. However, if my words, then or previously, offended you, I apologize. Let me also say, for the record, that I found your July 3rd post, rebutting my June 30th post, offensive and insulting in its sarcasm and mischaracterization of what I wrote. I understand that you were angry, but you unfairly misconstrued my position. If I have time later, I may respond to your distortions at length. However, in the interim, can we both agree to try to be more civil and less contentious in this discussion? Frank Maxwell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] (On Stage) Provo Freedom Festival Parade Date: 06 Jul 2001 12:32:46 -0600 ON STAGE The Freedom Festival Parade in Provo as an example of Mormon = Theatre. By Eric Samuelsen Okay, so, AML-List is about Mormon art, including Mormon Theatre. So = what's this bozo doing writing about a parade? A parade is a parade, a = place to take your whiny children for a good, healthy, case of heat = stroke. So what's this about? Well, what's theatre? It's an event, taking place in a certain time and = place, involving costumes, set, mimesis. If a parade isn't theatre, it's = certainly theatrical, and there are elements of mimesis. I don't think = the guy in the clown costume was really Ronald McDonald, for example, = though it's possible that the guy in the white shirt and tie really was = Bob Bennett. A parade is a text, I think, and it expresses a point of = view and an ideology, and it's a site for playing out certain cultural = constructs and fantasies. This won't be a very organized paper or = anything, though I might polish it up for MLA. But it was certainly a very = interesting parade. So, anyway, in Provo, behind the Zion curtain, in the heart of Utah = Mormondom, they have this annual 4th of July parade. It's a very big = deal. We tend to get marching bands from all across Utah, and big name = politicians often come here instead of Salt Lake. And it's a tradition in = my family to come. At least, that's the argument my children make, when I = warn them that last year, they spent the whole time complaining about = being hot and bored. "But Dad," they protest, "it's a Family Tradition." = And either my wife or I gets up at 5 to save us a decent spot along = University Avenue, and the other one brings the kids around 9, and by = 9:15, they're asking how much longer, because they're hot and bored. =20 Anyway, it's a parade; floats, marching bands, horses, pooper scoopers, = politicians. Like all civic events, it's clearly intended to express the = main values of the polis; it's an egalitarian celebration of whatever a = significant part of the citizenry thinks is good and worth celebrating. = This year, the theme was multicultural: "Utah invites the world." This is = obviously a reference to the Olympics, which are coming next winter, but = it also has broader dimensions. After all, Provo is a small town, a = parochial, conservative, insular community. And also, it's a town where a = sizable minority of its citizens have spent significant parts of their = lives in foreign countries, speak a foreign language with some fluency, = and deeply and genuinely love the people of a foreign land. So a great = many of the floats showed the flags of many nations, and included = international iconography. In the brilliant film Babe: Pig In The City, = there's this great scene where Babe looks out his window and sees The = City; a civic landscape that includes the Empire State Building, the = Eiffel Tower, the Sydney Opera House, the Hollywood Sign, St. Paul's, etc. = That's what a lot of these floats looked like; an eclectic mix of = 'foreign' (usually European, but we give points for that here) iconography.= There was a lovely Native American float, which actually went out of its = way to point out that the term 'Indian' includes many nations. I liked = that float a lot, especially the fact that it included the Indian names = for the various tribes represented: Dine for Navajo, for example. Many of = these floats suggested a journey of some kind; one showed the Statue of = Liberty at one end and the Salt Lake Temple at the other end, with a = handcard in between. Okay, that's a very Utah float, but then it also = included a group of Polynesian dancers. =20 Of course it wouldn't be possible to extrapolate much of a coherent = message from such an eclectic collection of images. Still, it's interestin= g how many floats were trying to express some kind of multcultural = viewpoint; if the imagery was confused or sentimentalized, the effort was = clearly there. =20 Now, it almost goes without saying that the parade itself expresses and = affirms the values of the ruling cultural hegemony. Every politician of = importance gets his/her own car, and one can't help noticing the predominan= ce of white men, with a smattering of kind of grim looking, helmet haired = white women. It was a very Republican parade. The one Democratic float, = one representing the Utah Democratic party, was a ship. It rather looked = as though it was sinking. There was no float from the Utah Republican = party; it just wasn't needed. Why build a float when you've got a whole = parade? I couldn't help but notice the imaginative uses people found for = Old Glory; flag trousers, flag hats, flag handkerchiefs. This from the = party that wants a constitutional amendment banning flag desecration. There were some nicely subversive and loony floats, let me add. My = favorite was one showing a car running down a bunch of seagulls. I'm = really not kidding; there's this car, the driver is bombing along, a = female passenger looks terrified, and he's running over five seagulls. I = think the float was sponsored by a local bank. I don't get it; but I like = it. I love the one high school where the marching band plays bagpipes = instead of traditional band instruments. I actually loved all the = marching bands; music by John Phillip Sousa: the immigrant who added USA = to his last name. I loved the flatbed truck carrying a rock band. They = were playing Sweet Home Alabama, updating the lyrics so they actually = referred to a prominent Arkansan ("In Little Rock they love the governor . = . . Whitewater doesn't bother me, does your conscience bother you?"). I = loved the giant NuSkin balloons. =20 By the same token--here's the part for MLA-- the parade also expresses a = particular sort of sexual politics, a certain construction of gender = that's aggressively heterosexual and patriarchal. Most floats show a = teenage beauty queen; a beauty contest winner, waving, white gloved, smile = firmly affixed. She was always accompanied by her court; several other = girls wearing a different color or dress style. The sexist pig in me = couldn't help but notice that the attendents were always much prettier = than the winner. One attendent, bless her, carried a super soaker, which = she used to drench kids along the way. It was nice to see one of those = girls act like a person; mostly they seem sort of zombieish. I felt sorry = for them. =20 Anyway, I found the parade a kind of interesting expression of where the = Church is right now; trying awkwardly to embrace the fact that we're = rapidly becoming a world religion, trying to figure out how to embrace = other cultures while still wedded to our own, sort of gauche and cliched = in our understanding of the rest of the world, but filled with good will = and good intentions, and also pretty unaware of how firmly enmeshed we are = in the mainstream values of contemporary American pop culture, a culture = we pretty much can't escape, and which we also recognize is in a lot of = ways contrary to the gospel. =20 I'm not just talking about McDonald's here. All the major fast food = companies had floats, and it made sense. I've always loved the name of = our country. "United States." States are sovereign; they cannot, by = definition, be united. "Of" or belonging to. "America" The spirit of = supersalesman Amerigo Vespucci, the crooked realtor/used car dealer of his = day. It's in our name: polyester trousers and checked sports coats and = combovers and wiseguys trying to make a buck, hucksters and ad men and = telemarketers, a certain kind of aggressive, tacky, pushy, driving, = self-promoting salesmanship; it's in our blood. I absolutely love buying = a new car, personally, because I'm never more alive than when I'm = dickering. And so, of course, there's room for Ronald McDonald in our 4th = of July parade. But I'm not sure King Benjamin would care for him much. = =20 And, as always, I was amazed by the sub- or unconscious gay iconography in = this aggressively hetero community. I mean, it's a bit like football = games, even or especially BYU games, where the songs you hear the most are = YMCA by the Village People and We Will Rock You and We Are the Champions = by Queen, and Rock and Roll part two, by Gary Glitter. Ouch. At the = parade, a very nice group of kids on a flatbed danced to YMCA. And = Deseret Book has this new pirate mascot who's the gayest guy I've seen in = public; bright green trousers and a pink waistcoat. Flaming. It's more = than that too; it's the camp archness of most floats anyway, the drag = queen look of a beauty pageant winner, a look that's really come full = circle. I'm not judging anyone, believe me. I think it's mostly = unconscious. But I also found parts of the parade fantastically funny. = =20 Finally, the Mormon arts angle. Because a parade in Provo is, has to be, = Mormon. Stakes sponsored many of the floats, and Mormon iconography was = omnipresent; handcarts, golden plates, seagulls, Moroni. I found myself = wondering about context. Is a parade an appropriate place to show Joseph = retrieving the plates from the Hill Cumorah? One float showed this last = year (I don't think I saw it this year.) Some poor kid, dressed like = Joseph, had to pick up the plates, put 'em back, pick 'em up, put 'em = back, the whole two miles of the parade route. And people worry about the = appropriateness of religious imagery in Richard Dutcher films? Still, I thought it was great that two groups of young men who are = basically in the same profession got the biggest rounds of applause in the = entire parade: the pooper scoopers, and the missionaries of the Utah Provo = mission. Cleaning up the world, one mess at a time. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] Kenny KEMP, _I Hated Heaven_ (Review) Date: 07 Jul 2001 20:06:25 -0700 Review ====== Kenny Kemp, "I Hated Heaven" 1998, Alta Films Press Paperback, 278 pages, $12.00 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle Spoiler alert: in this review, I'll be revealing the plot, and the conclusion, of the book. If you're planning on reading this book, and don't want to know how it all works out, read Rachel Nunez's review instead. "I Hated Heaven" was one of the most unusual books I've ever read. I had some expectations about the book, but they were blown away by Kenny Kemp's odd, entertaining novel. How could I stay away from it? It takes place in San Diego county, and my town of Chula Vista even gets a mention! That alone would make me want to read the book. The premise: Tom and April Waring, and their son Josh, are a middle-class, working couple. He's in construction, she's a therapist. Tom is a believing Christian, but April is essentially agnostic when it comes to God and religion. A construction accident sends Tom to the hospital where, despite the best efforts of the doctors, he dies. The last thing he hears is April's request: if you find out there really is a God, come back and tell me. Upon arrival in Paradise, Tom is greeted by his spirit guide, a fellow named Jonathan. Turns out that Paradise is a cross between a military processing center and Club Med. Despite the pleasures of Paradise, Tom is compelled by his need to fulfill his promise: God really does exist, and he must go back to tell April. The problem: the bureaucracy in Paradise is far worse than any earthly institution. Jonathan, a bit of a snob and completely disinterested in Tom's desire to return to earth, tries his best to contain Tom's rebellious nature, but nothing seems to work. Hoping to dissuade him from his quest, Jonathan gives Tom the hundred-page form he must fill out in order to obtain a waiver to return to earth! When the application is denied, Tom storms the offices of "The Council," where the assembled grouchy old men read him the riot act and send him on his way. For Tom, Paradise is an awful place! One day, Tom meets up with a fellow named Stan. Stan is, to say the least, a piece of work. A smart aleck of the first order, he becomes a vexing presence for Tom. He sometimes acts like a child, sticking his tongue out and making rude noises. Other times he teases and plays with Tom, much to Tom's annoyance. (We learn later that Stan is very fond of Ding Dongs.) But Stan knows how to smuggle Tom out of Paradise so that he can fulfill his promise to April. They illicitly pass through, and begin an earthly adventure full of surprises and twists and turns. Jonathan, accompanied by guards, pursues Tom to earth and catches up with him in a hospital room where his earthly friend Chuck is dying. Jonathan takes both Tom and Stan into custody and returns them to Paradise where they are brought before the Council. The Council sentences Tom to eternal hell, no appeal, no excuses. And then one turns to Stan and asks, "What do you think, Lord?" Surprise! Turns out Stan is actually God. The Council breaks into broad smiles, all of them seemingly in on the joke. Jonathan is the only one who is unaware of Stan's true identity. With "Stan"'s approval, time is reversed, Tom is sent back in time to the day of his accident, the doctors revive him, and he never really dies at all. And everyone lives happily ever after. There, that's the plot. Now, a few observations. First, as Rachel wisely observed in her good review, this book is a Mormon novel only so far as one recognizes the scenes of Paradise (absent the objectionable bureaucracy, of course) as reflective of Mormon ideas of Paradise. But the non-LDS reader will, I think, never make any such connection. Paradise is almost never mentioned in Mormon discussions these days; the reader will simply find a pleasant and surprising love story. Additionally, I wasn't uncomfortable with the "Stan" character as was Rachel. A playful God is, in fact, a very Eastern concept. Students of Zen might have recognized Stan/God long before I did. In the context of fiction, I found this refreshing. Second, I have no idea why Kemp named the book "I Hated Heaven." Jonathan, the spirit guide, spared no effort in correcting Tom when he referred to Paradise as "heaven." "This is NOT heaven!" What Tom hated was Paradise. He would have no idea if he hated heaven or not -- he never made it there. I struggled for a better title, and remembered that the residents of Paradise had pagers. So, "Pagers in Paradise" would have worked just fine. It's more accurate, and surely, as pager-carriers will agree, gives anyone a reason to hate the place. Third, I was intrigued that Kemp included some fairly explicit (by Mormon standards) scenes. Here's an example, a scene that describes the moments preceding a love-making session between Tom and April: When she slipped under the covers, a full moon shone through the high window, making everything blue. The sheets were cool. She shivered. Tom climbed in and pulled her to him. In the moonlight, her eyes were bright. She put her arms around his neck and they kissed. She felt her hand move slowly along her hips, then up, cupping her breast. She felt herself give way as he pulled her closer. He moved knowingly and time slowed as they traveled to a place where there were only the two of them. (p. 47) This is about as explicit a scene as I've ever read in a Mormon novel. Fourth, there were some parts that were at least mildly subversive. I was taken by a few places where Kemp seems to be poking fun at Mormonism itself! All in good fun, of course. Here are few examples: You remember Tom's friend Chuck. He was much into spooky spiritual stuff -- fortune-telling, astrology, etc. One day, while Tom is visiting Chuck in his home, he picks up a book titled "Seth Speaks," a title familiar to those who frequent the metaphysics section of the local bookstore. After reading a few paragraphs, Tom muses: Tom put the book down, shaking his head. He looked at the other books, more of the same, written by people who didn't like the simplicity of religion. "Love thy neighbor" wasn't enough for them, they needed some theatrical gimmick like space aliens delivering sacred writings on gold disks to some guy in a trailer park. (p. 49) Now, how much of a stretch would it be to change "space aliens" to "an angel," "gold disks" to "gold plates," and "trailer park" to "hill"? What exactly is Kemp trying to say here? In another place, after Tom manages, with Stan's help, to come back to earth, Jonathan, ever the efficient manager, finds his way into the Library of Paradise where everyone's Book of Life is maintained. Reading Tom's life and inner thoughts, he comes to an astonishing conclusion: I may have misunderstood Thomas Waring. He's a True Believer, someone for whom grace isn't just wishful thinking. He believes he is guided by the Spirit and such people are often unpredictable. This is worse than I thought. (p. 217) And so the fellow who breaks all the rules, who follows his own star, who thinks commitment supersedes bureaucracy, and doesn't mind working around the Powers-That-Be in order to do what he thinks is right, is termed a "True Believer"! Nothing short of subversive, if you ask me. Finally, a minor quibble. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is aware of the importance of using the correct name for the Church, and have made efforts to convince the media, and others, to properly identify the organization. I always hope that LDS writers will take the time to do the same for others. In Chuck's home are copies of the "Watchtower" magazine. Kemp terms them "Watch Tower." It isn't two words, but one. This is surely something he could have easily checked. "I Hated Heaven" is a dandy book. There are some dry spots, to be sure, and Kemp can become tedious in the way he draws out some of the scenes. But for those who want a good summer read, this novel fits the bill just fine. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenny Kemp" Subject: [AML] Kenny Kemp Signs Deal: Alta Films & Press News Release Date: 08 Jul 2001 08:21:45 -0700 ALTA FILMS & PRESS NEWS RELEASE: July 9, 2001 BUILDING ON SUCCESS: KENNY KEMP SIGNS A THREE BOOK DEAL WITH HARPERCOLLINS SAN FRANCISCO, CA -- Kenny Kemp, author of Dad Was A Carpenter, has been signed to a significant three-book deal with HarperSanFrancisco, the inspirational imprint of HarperCollins Publishers, the world's largest English language publisher. "We are very excited about this project," says Gideon Weil, Kemp's editor at HSF. "Kenny pitched it to us last spring and everyone here agreed it was a truly inspired idea. I wish I could tell you more about it, but the idea is so incredible that we've all agreed to try to keep it under wraps for now." However, Joe Durepos, Kemp's agent, did reveal that the book series will be a historical fiction set in Palestine. "It's an incredible concept and Kenny is the perfect guy to write it." Durepos also disclosed that the deal was in the mid-six figure range. Kemp says the concept came out of his pondering of the Bible. "I'm interested in reducing the distance between God and man. I struggle to feel more connected to God, and my writing reflects that desire. And as a kind of "faithful skeptic," I've found my experience is also that of a great number of people for whom traditional religion is very confining." Kemp's previous book, the memoir Dad Was A Carpenter, won the Grand Prize in the 1999 Writer's Digest Self-Published Book Awards and was soon snatched up by HarperCollins and re-released this last May to great acclaim. Kemp was invited to Book Expo in Chicago this last June, and was one of several writers feted at a party given by Jane Friedman, HarperCollins president. He also participated in a very successful book signing at the convention. "This deal is a reflection of how we feel about Kenny," said Gideon Weil, Kemp's editor. "We've been wanting to make him a house author because he is that most rare combination: a great storyteller who touches the heart lightly but powerfully. And we are hopeful that this new project, the first volume of which is tentatively titled The Welcoming Door, will establish Kenny as a major American inspirational writer. Dad Was A Carpenter has been successful for us and we are confident he will not disappoint with his next book." Kemp is also a contributor to Writer's Digest magazine, which will feature an article by him about his self-publishing experiences in this summer's annual self-publishing issue. --- Alan Smithee, Jr. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 09 Jul 2001 11:07:49 -0700 Responding to Amelia Parkin: <<>>=20 As far as religious tools go, they have typewriters, we have computers. = Yeah, you can get some similar overlapping results using both tools, but = the computer is much more powerful and opens revolutionary new horizons. = People who can't recognize that aren't bad, but they are generally limited = in their thinking and in their religious imagination. It plays into what = Pres. Hinckley often says to members of other faiths, something like, "Let = us add to the good you already have." I'm sorry, but I do pity people who = continue using typewriters when they could use a computer. I don't like fiction that exists mainly to proselytize people into the = Church, but on the other hand I don't mind if things like this typewriter/c= omputer comparison come out, even explicitly. Like in my own writing, it = comes out in the form of "Yeah, but even computers have a downside and can = be tiresome. . . " Hey, I think I just wrote something orthodox-sounding. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Where to Advertise? Date: 09 Jul 2001 11:22:09 -0700 The place that you advertise to the LDS audience is through Deseret Book's = cooperative direct mailings. They told Publishers Weekly that they have = 720,000 names in their database, and they regularly send out packets that = include flyers from different publishers and kitsch manufacturers (with = even an occasional food storage flyer thrown into the mix). This seems to = have replaced any other printed form of advertising to the LDS world. The = mailings are a fascinating way to keep up on LDS pop culture and commercial= ism. As far as getting in, I don't know how much it costs, but I've = recently inquired (I'm hoping they might give AML/Irreantum a nonprofit = discount or something, but it would probably still be too expensive). Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 09 Jul 2001 11:21:50 -0600 on 7/7/01 10:02 PM, Annette Lyon at annette@lyfe.com wrote: > While I have whole-heartedly agreed with the dismay everyone is expressing > over the removal of fiction from the church mags... (snip) > > Just a few thoughts as to the "whys" of the whole situation, although I'm > still in mourning like everyone else. I couldn't be happier to have fiction cut from official church magazines. I like fiction a lot--it's 90% of what I do read, but I don't want it in my church magazines. I read them for different reasons. Steve Perry -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Higbeejm@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 09 Jul 2001 13:50:09 EDT > Lauramaery (Gold) Post writes: > > [Quoting someone else] > >>But what's wrong with writing about good people. They're > >>interesting too. > > > >I can think of no fictional character about whom that is true. > > For starters, how about Galadriel, Atticus Finch, Alyosha > Karamazov, Prince Myshkin, Father Brown, Joe Pendleton from > "Heaven Can Wait", Mrs. Cummings from Douglas Thayer's _Summer > Fire_, most of the people in Eric Samuelsen's _Singled Out_, > Ransom from C.S. Lewis's space trilogy, the fictionalized C.S. > Lewis character in "Shadowlands", or the fictionalized Thomas > More character in "A Man for All Seasons"? Too bad, too boring, > or both? > > Chris Grant "Too bad, too boring, or both?" My question exactly. And to this list I would add the names of three of my all-time favorite fictional characters: Jane Eyre, Scout Finch, and Jem Finch. Good, kind, sometimes wise, generally flawed, multi-faceted, complicated people who would also be great company at a dinner party. (I think Jane Eyre is one of the most well-rounded charaters in English literature, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. And I wish somebody would write a story about Jem and Scout as adults. I'd love to see how they turned out.) Let's see, who else...? Jean Valjean. Jo March. The protagonist from Richard Russo's _Straight Man_, whose name I can't remember at the moment. Pastor Stephen Kamalo from _Cry, the Beloved Country_, who is one of the most genuinely "good" men ever written in fiction, but who also doubts his faith, acts out of anger, and grieves over his weaknesses. And I've got stacks and stacks of non-fiction featuring real people who were fascinating and complicated as well as good. Including Mormons. Including my family and friends. Including my neighbors from the Provo, Utah ward I grew up in--statistically the most active ward in one of the most active stakes in the church, and peopled with poets, painters, musicians, politicians, attorneys, cultural revolutionaries, scientists, steel mill workers, high school shop teachers, and famous gospel scholars. Faithful latter-day saints who took the gospel seriously and remained devoted to the church through personality conflicts with church leaders, divorce, drug abuse, child abuse, teenage pregnancy, homosexuality, poverty, and riches. Among other things. A limitless number of stories there. All happening in the few city blocks within our ward boundaries. If I were writing fiction, I would model my characters after them. I'm willing to bet all of us know "good" people interesting enough to be worthy of a full-length novel. Write about them. Janelle Higbee - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: Re: [AML] Article on Sister Songwriters in the Church Date: 09 Jul 2001 12:00:10 -0600 What a neat article, Steve! Thanks for sharing. Marianne >From: Steve >Reply-To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: [AML] Article on Sister Songwriters in the Church >Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 09:39:57 -0600 > > >Hi Listers, > >Here is the URL to an interesting article on LDS sister songwriters by Ron >Simpson, Utah Songwriter Advocate and General Manager of BYU's Tantara >Records. > > http://www.meridianmagazine.com/music/010705simple.html > >Steve Perry > >-- >skperry@mac.com > > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] _Ensign_ Article on Mormon Romance (was: McCLOUD, _Kirtland_) Date: 09 Jul 2001 07:58:20 -0700 > > The other day I picked up an old Ensign magazine at DI that had an > > article > > on the writing of romance fiction. I haven't read it in its entirety > > yet, > > but skimming it, I see the writer questions the quality of LDS romance > > fiction. > > This was in an Ensign?? Which issue was it? This would be an interesting > article to read online. > > Thanks for your comments! > > --Katie Parker > It's in the February 1987 issue. It's by Marilyn Arnold and it's very insightful. Is it on line someplace? It's almost worth typing the whole thing in, but it would be a tremendous lot of work. Read it if you can find a copy. It echoes a lot of what we've been saying here on this list. [Jeff Needle] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luannstaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Realistic Newspaper Reporters Date: 09 Jul 2001 13:20:13 -0600 Unless you're set on major newspaper or investigative report-type, you might go with a character like my neighbor, a housewife who is going back to school to get a degree in journalism and she writes at least half of the weekly news in the Spanish Fork Press. A bit different from the typical "newspaper reporter." I used to freelance with the Herald covering women's basketball at UVSC. Lots of other options out there to explore. Good luck. Lu Ann Stephen Goode wrote: > I am taking up my pen (word-processor) again to work on a novel that I keep > procrastinating. > > Most of my characters I know, but one I don't. What I mean is that most of > them have identities I know something about. It would be silly for me to > populate a story with people I don't understand, but it would also seem dull > to leave out the characters I don't understand. I have one character who is > a newspaper reporter, but I know nothing about newspaper reporting. I don't > want to make him cliche, because there is much about him that is not at all > stereotypical. The interesting things about him not related to his job I can > handle, but when I show him doing his job, how do I make it believable > without making him a caricature of every other newspaper reporter I've ever > read about in a novel? > > Any newspaper reporter here want to give me an assist? > > Rex Goode > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luannstaheli Subject: [AML] Steed Family (was: Fiction in Church Mags) Date: 09 Jul 2001 13:24:22 -0600 Gerald Lund often comments in talks he gives about writing that once a woman came up to him and said she had been praying for the Steed family. That's the only real references i've heard heard to such a comment. Lu Ann Melissa Proffitt wrote: > > As a matter of interest, I'd like everyone who's actually heard someone cite > the Steed family (or any of the other characters from The Work and the Glory > series) as real historical figures to respond here. First-hand accounts > only, please, and I don't care if it was in a talk or in conversation. I'd > like to know how serious the problem really is. > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] Realistic Newspaper Reporters Date: 09 Jul 2001 19:43:53 -0000 I realize that this is not a direct response to your question, but, when I read your post Writers Digest 101 Best Websites for Writers immediately came to mind. The 2001 version contains much about journalism, newspaper reporting, etc. etc. I thought it might be helpful in your research. It's online at writersdigest.com., and I would begin by looking under the media section. Best of luck on your writing venture! Tami Miller - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luannstaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 09 Jul 2001 13:31:05 -0600 Annette, Let's not forget what happened to Paul H. Dunn when people found out some of his stories were actually more fiction than fact. Gasp! - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 09 Jul 2001 14:02:28 -0600 Darvell Hunt wrote: > I write for passion first, to sell > second. I would rather write something that I'm passionate about and sell > only a few copies than write something I don't give a darn about and sell a > million copies. (Oh wait, did I say a million? Maybe I would for a million! > ;) ) I don't know why you can't do both. Are you saying you are only passionate about overtly LDS things? There is nothing universal to humans in your life that you are passionate about? Why can't you write about passions that are universal--not strictly LDS--and sell millions, then write about passions that are strictly LDS, and sell hundreds? You know, like Card does. > It's part of being true to yourself. There are mainstream LDS writers out > there who don't put any LDS material in their writing. Doesn't that kind of > feel like they sold "us" out? Ouch! Back to dictating what other authors should write about. > (And there are writers like Orson Scott Card, who do write about LDS material, > but yet in the mainstream market. No, he didn't--not at first. He wouldn't touch anything LDS until he became well established. > And yet if he wants to write about real > LDS themes, he has to publish under LDS labels. No, he doesn't. He just has to be more subtle about them. And by doing so, he reaches many people with LDS concepts that you never will with your overtly LDS writing. > So, as I see it, this is the bottom line: Writing for the LDS market > greatly limits your audience and circulation, but may provide more > satisfaction. Satisfaction is in the eye of the beholder. I would say there's nothing satisfying about writing what I am passionate about if I have to add or remove all sorts of elements that I feel are false or destructive to the story. This can happen in the national market--but for heaven's sake, you don't think it happens in the LDS market too? In the national market, they want me to pretend LDS people don't exist. In the LDS market, they want me to pretend life is a vending machine: put your money in and your consequences pop out. But that's how heaven works, not mortal life. Rebel in heaven against God and WHAMMO! you're cast out. But the whole purpose of mortal life is to _delay_ the consequences of sin so we have time to repent, says the Book of Mormon. This results in a very messy earth life that just doesn't follow the tidy rules Mormons wish would exist, and will require the wisdom of God to sort out in the end. Maybe that's why Mormons like tidy literature: wish fulfillment. Certainly not reality. It's a dangerous thing to assume that, because an author chooses the national market, he's selling us out. There are myriad ways to do good in the world. If an author chooses a different way than you, that doesn't mean he has chosen a less good way. > It's kind of like bearing your testimony. It may be an appropriate thing to > do in sacrament meeting "among friends," but you certainly wouldn't do it > in a national medium, like on TV. It's just not the right place to express > your innermost, honest feelings. It's not???? Why not? Just because you don't start with "I'd like to bear my testimony..." and include lines out of "The Pamphlet of LDS Testimony Catch Phrases" doesn't mean you can't bear your testimony. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: Re: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 09 Jul 2001 16:51:14 -0400 I've never heard anything from the W&G quoted as doctrine--but I have heard a lot of other fictional, or unresearched stories presented as true. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've heard something from "Saturday's Warriors" taught as doctrine. However, I can't be sure the doctrine taught originated with SW or if it was being taught before SW as well. I never saw it as a teen-ager, but I had friends who saw it, and listened to the record (ouch) and looooooved it. They really latched on to all that romantic/pre-existence/made for each other stuff. They really believed it, at least at the time. How many of you have heard the "Seminary Donuts" story? I saw it come across my e-mail no less than 6 times (not all of them because of my involvement with CES) and heard it presented in two different classes. Is this story truth or fiction--who knows. I don't like it very much presented as a true story. None of the versions I saw had any kind of verification. However, it's a decent parable if it is presented that way. I never heard any hullabaloo about Together Forever, but I can imagine it happening. I don't see how anyone could really think those were real people--if I remember right the film used a lot of flash-back and film effects. Did they really think those were actual people replaying real events from their lives? But, I can believe that a lot of people thought they were true stories. And I can see why they would have felt somehow betrayed. I seem to remember one couple being interviewed--I think that's the one where a child dies--and the interviewee sitting there with tears rolling down her checks as if she were really the person recounting a personal story. So, here you are getting all emotional over someone's pain, and you find out that it's not really true and feel like a chump. I can see that happening even though I don't think there is any real thinking involved in that kind of attitude. The stories are all probably things that have happened over and over again in the lives of people who are members of the church. And I get emotional about fiction all the time, so what difference does it make if the fiction originates with the church or not. I guess all I am saying is that, yes, I believe members of the church believe stories that they hear presented in any church related way to be true even if they are labeled as fiction. Sometimes that means they accept things as doctrine that isn't. Now, whether that makes the church obligated to not ever present anything fictional is another issue altogether. The Savior used fiction extensively in his teaching. Tracie Laulusa - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OmahaMom@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Literary LCD Date: 09 Jul 2001 17:00:19 EDT Interesting to read the comments on the Broken Covenant. It had me in tears much of the way through the book at the problems that heroine was going through with her marriage. Our circumstances are different, yet there was much the same. My path wasn't her ultimate path, but I could see why she made her [wrong] choices as she did based on what she was experiencing. It was more realisitic in some ways than some of Weyland's (but I enjoy reading Jack Weyland--which is often lighter in scope), and certainly "fixing" things wasn't easy. But rarely is the fix as easy as the break. Karen Tippets - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OmahaMom@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 09 Jul 2001 17:04:09 EDT If it comes to that, one of the things that irks me is the number of times I have heard the gospel taught according to the Reader's Digest. It isn't happening so much now, but several years ago, a lot of people were using the magazine for "inspirational stories" to include in their talks. Surely we can do better than that. Karen Tippets - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wheeler, Jeff M" Subject: RE: [AML] Where to Advertise? Date: 09 Jul 2001 14:24:56 -0700 I have the state demographic data for church membership, but nothing on a local level. In the business world, gathering a database of consumers is the real magic (like the Living Scriptures one). Companies pay good money to have access to it. I'm working on my MBA in marketing right now (will finish in December). There is no mountain with a guru. Everyone, including Deseret, is trying to figure out best to tap into their market. Focusing on Irreantum and building your own database would probably be the most effective. Publicity campaigns, that sort of thing. Jeff Wheeler AMBERLIN BOOKS www.amberlin.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Literary LCD Date: 09 Jul 2001 16:59:16 -0600 At 11:10 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote: >Yes, I think LDS fiction has come a long >way. And it does deal more with real issues. I guess what I'd like to >see is >more real characters dealing with them in a more real way. I may have mentioned this book on this list before, but I recommend JoAnne Jolley's Secrets of the Heart. It isn't at all as sappy as the title sounds. (Covenant seems to specialize in sappy titles.) The protagonist has a definite edge to her, and she has to deal with major issues. I like books that show the struggle. I do insist on seeing a successful conclusion to the struggle, though! I like the way Dutcher mingles the good outcomes with the not-so-good in his stories without leaving you feeling glum. In fact, you feel pretty dang good coming out of his movies, even though you've seen that not everything always turns out right. Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Moderator Note Date: 10 Jul 2001 14:26:38 -0500 Folks, I feel the need to insert a note of caution here for the Sex in Literature thread and several others (not directed toward anyone's comments in particular). Some relevant quotes from the AML-List Guidelines: 1. BEHAVE Avoid flaming or name-calling. Reply to posts, not people. The motives of other subscribers are off-topic. Respect the integrity, opinions, and beliefs of others. 2. THE TOPIC IS LITERATURE It is not politics, pet peeves, the general authorities, or the doctrines or policies of the LDS Church (except as they affect how Mormons read and write). State your opinions frankly, but stick to literary judgments. A post may be bumped: If it goes too far in *substituting moral terms for critical ones.* People frequently use words like "immoral" or "dishonest" when they mean things like "politically incorrect" or "facile." Because the convention is widespread, AML-List tolerates this as long as it's clear a personal attack on the author is not intended. Even then we discourage it because of the inference that those who like the work are complicit in something unethical. If it *veers too far into Church doctrine, policy, or the opinions of the general authorities.* It may be appropriate to discuss these in relation to specific literary works, market conditions, etc., but when the conversation turns to establishing just what those doctrines and opinions are, or whether you think they're justified, that discussion belongs on another list. It is never appropriate to attack or belittle the religious beliefs of another, or to use religious beliefs to condemn or suppress the opinions of another. I've been interpreting these rules fairly loosely, in the interests of keeping the conversation going. However, I think the discussion has reached the point where a more strict interpretation may be needed. I therefore request that all of you go ahead and state your opinions, but that you do it in a way that (a) relates first and foremost to literature; and (b) avoids anything that could reasonably be seen as commenting on the motives or righteousness of other List members. Thanks for your help. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re:[AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 09 Jul 2001 18:58:14 -0500 The whole discussion of publishing with national vs. LDS publishers reminds me a little bit of the conversation that took place (if I recall correctly) in a creative writing class with Marion K. Smith at BYU, on whether it was easier to write science fiction or fantasy. (It was a class specializing in the two genres.) His response: in a way, it's irrelevant, because from what he had seen, people write what's in them to write, whether science fiction, or fantasy, or both. I think there's some truth to that general principles as it applies to us who are both (a) Mormon and (b) writers (at least would-be). Some people, like Thom Duncan and Eric Samuelsen, seem most motivated to write stories that are directed to "our own people," whether orthodox or not. Others feel driven to write stories directed to a different audience and purpose. I don't think most Mormon authors make a conscious choice about what type of story they want to tell (although, if they have many different story ideas, they may select among them those which they think are most likely to prove financially successful). Rather, I think they tell the stories they feel driven to tell. In some cases, that will be about explicitly Mormon experience from a perspective that is intended for sharing with others who understand that experience. In other cases, it may be about the Mormon experience, but from a perspective that is suited toward sharing with outsiders (in a cultural sense). In still other cases, the Mormonness of the story may lie entirely in the largely subconscious worldview that it reveals, and in no explicitly LDS elements at all (for example, in Dave Wolverton's science fiction). And different types of stories, directed toward different audiences, will be more likely to see the light of day and reach those audiences with different publishers. AML-List founder Ben Parkinson wrote an excellent little essay a few years back on "Deseret School" and "Missionary School" fiction, arguing that we need more high-quality literature in both fields, and that those of us who are practitioners (or appreciators) in one field need to be careful, in our appreciation of what we love and/or do, not to try to elevate either category above the other. Relating this to our current conversation, I think we need to be extremely careful when we start talking about either "selling out" (on the one hand) or "not good enough for the national market" (on the other). I'll take this a little further. Many of us, I think--myself prominent in that number--are inclined to complain not only that there's not enough of the stuff we like out there, but that there's too much of the stuff we don't like. But I'm not sure this serves a useful purpose, particularly within the world of Mormon letters. Do we really want fewer voices, fewer publications? I'm not convinced that bad fiction drives out good fiction, or that more money spent on Jack Weyland equals less money to support Margaret Young and Alan Mitchell. Of course, I'm talking now largely about the Deseret School work (to use Ben's term). No one is saying that there's only room for one major Mormon sf&f writer, so Scott Card should move over and let Dave Wolverton/Farland have his chance! Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Realistic Newspaper Reporters Date: 08 Jul 2001 19:15:18 +0800 Rex Goode: >I have one character who is a newspaper reporter, but I know nothing >about newspaper reporting. I don't want to make him cliche, because >there is much about him that is not at all stereotypical. The >interesting things about him not related to his job I can handle, >but when I show him doing his job, how do I make it believable >without making him a caricature of every other newspaper reporter >I've ever read about in a novel? > >Any newspaper reporter here want to give me an assist? I can answer based on my experience working with reporters, and occasionally being one myself. The main thing fiction usually gets wrong about reporters is making them too hardened. Granted, being surrounded by the cold realities of the news all day tends to make one a little world-weary. But reporters are, for the most part, still human beings. The cliche of shoving other reporters out of the way, rushing up to a person whose house has just burned down, and saying, "How do you feel right now?" rings more false than true. Reporters who have to get difficult stories like that usually have to take a deep breath, gather their nerves, and then plunge ahead, as discreetly and inobtrusively as possible. We don't like hounding people anymore than the average person would. Our job requires is sometimes, though, and so we do it. Reporters, like anyone who works with words, tend to be erudite and well-spoken. They generally enjoy reading. The best reporters have news in their blood. It's just an in-born passion for finding information and telling the stories. As a result, they tend to be nosy, too: Newsroom gossip is the fastest-traveling substance known to man. If your reporter works in a newsroom, he will almost certainly be up on what's going on among his coworkers. And yet, since reporters are not usually particularly extroverted, they tend to be private people, too. I don't know if your character is LDS or not. In the real world, reporters tend to swear a lot and drink endless amount of coffee. They are not snappy dressers by any stretch of the imagination. They are usually high-school nerds who have gotten smart enough to realize they're nerds and take some measures to overcome it. Even in Utah, and even among the LDS, reporters swear and drink coffee, though perhaps not as much as elsewhere. They also do tend to be liberal and Democrats -- that stereotype is true. (Almost every Democrat I've met in Utah has been through working for a newspaper.) Reporters usually get passionate about the beat they cover. They develop intense rivalries with whomever covers the same beat for the rival newspaper, if there is one. (There almost always is). If they cover city council meetings, they know all the council members personally and have a love-hate relationship with them: Love because they give them good stories, and hate because they're politicians. One more thing. Reporters are way underpaid. See what you can do about that, will you? Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: Fiction in Church Mags Date: 09 Jul 2001 23:20:37 -0500 Melissa Proffit: ... stories that really happened are more valuable than the made-up kind. Annette Lyon: ... there was something in it [the handbook] about ... _______________ Church Handbook of Instructions, p. 239: "Make-Believe in Primary Children should know that they learn the truth in Primary. If a person uses a make-believe story or situation to teach a gospel principle, he or she should explain that the story is make-believe." _____ I see the wisdom in this policy. I also see some practicallity here. There is a lot to be covered in Primary and other Church classes that is true. I have found there is little time for other things, as interesting or nice or fun as they might be. (I make brief exceptions for quality humor.) Someone mentioned the Steeds in a gospel doctrine class. The response was, "Who?" Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art (comp) Date: 10 Jul 2001 19:55:26 -0500 >From ThomDuncan@prodigy.net Mon Jul 09 10:56:37 2001 Andrew Hall wrote: > All this talk about instiutional art tells me that we should have a poll on > the subject of the best and worst in art sponsored by the Church. > > So, tell us your favorite piece(s) of instituional Mormon art, as well as > your least favorite(s), and why. What makes them good or bad? > > I was thinking of just Church-made movies at first, from the ones in the > early 50s up to The Testaments. But I guess you could also include Church > sponsored pagents and plays, architecture, and art commisioned for chapels > and temples. Let's stay away from hymns for now, we'll save that for > another time. Remember, keep it to things sponsored by the Church itself. > > I look forward to everyone's participation. Favorite: Everything painted by Minerva Teichert. BY sent her to France to study with the masters. As an Impressionist, she didn't paint to tell a story, but to make you feel what was going on, which she did with wonderful mastery. Also, she lived a lifestyle that was about as Bohemian as a Mormon in good standing could get. Also, I like the Church's PSAs. They are short and moving and very well-made. I can't think of a Church-sponsored play that I've ever liked, or a Church sponsored film, for that matter. Thom [Duncan] >From Paynecabin@aol.com Mon Jul 09 11:01:20 2001 The talking plastic heads inside the big plywood golden plates at the 1972 World Expo in Spokane. The absolute worst. I think my comment on the exit poll was "Nightmarish." Marvin Payne >From marianne_hales_harding@hotmail.com Mon Jul 09 12:11:01 2001 Well, you have to love "Johnny Lingo" and those seminary films turned to video (The name escapes me but I remember the theme song vividly--"Walkin' walkin' together and talkin' oooh talkin' together and wondering wondering whether the good times we share will always be there..." Sing with me!) simply because it is a right of passage for all LDS youth. Not exactly the most glorious of films, but who has the mental capacity for great art at the crack of dawn??? Also, I liked Mr. Kruegger's Christmas on video but not when viewed on Temple Square because the showing at Temple Square ends with a little "the moral of this story is..." As I recall, the video itself is not so overtly preachy though it is sappy (luckily I like sap). And what's the one where the guy from MASH plays the Home Teaching Supervisor? That was a nice one. My husband can't stand "The Mailbox" because he says that what you learn from the story is that you shouldn't send old people letters or you'll kill them. :-) All time fave of this group, though, is the one where the kid who has a hard time waking up for chores gets up early to do chores on Christmas morning so his Dad can watch the kids open presents. It's just sweet. And simple. Gets in, tells the story, gets out. Doesn't have a voice over at the end that says, "And so we see...." Marianne Hales Harding >From tlaulusa@core.com Tue Jul 10 08:06:52 2001 Here is my ignorance rearing its ugly head again. How do you know if something is 'church sponsored? I know the films from the church are. Are all the pageants church sponsored? And what about pictures? I have know idea how to tell if a picture was sponsored (do you mean commissioned/) by the church or if an artist just painted it and the church liked it and bought it and so forth. Like all those pictures by the guy whose name I should remember and don't that show all the Nephites/Lamanites as Incredible Hulks. Tracie Laulusa >From ersamuel@byugate.byu.edu Tue Jul 10 08:38:56 2001 Best institutional Mormon art: Man's Search For Happiness: Really quite a remarkable piece of didactic = filmmaking. =20 I'm not a big fan of the Hill Cumorah pageant, but that's mostly because I = don't much like pageants; as a piece of outdoor theatre, it's considered = very good. My non-LDS colleagues like it much better than I do, oddly = enough. Marvin Carlson, my old mentor and perhaps the finest theatre = scholar in the country, wrote a very positive account of Hill Cumorah in = his book Theatre Semiotics: Signs of Life. Worst insitutional Mormon art: Johnny Lingo is very disturbing. But it can't hold a candle to Tom = Trails. Tom Trails was so awful, it was excellent (give that word the = proper high school enthusiasm.) In seminary, growing up, we couldn't wait = to see the new Tom Trails. Not, I regret to say, for any of the right = reasons; we gave it something of an LDS MST3K treatment. I remember = fondly snorting with laughter in the back row with the bishop's daughter, = while our more straitlaced friends shushed us. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Coke Newell's "Latter Days" Tells LDS Story: Deseret News Date: 09 Jul 2001 22:58:46 -0500 30Jun01 US UT SLC A2 [From Mormon-News] Coke Newell's "Latter Days" Tells LDS Story SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- "Latter Days," a re-telling of Latter-Day Saint history by convert Coke Newell of the LDS Public Affairs Department has done well for St. Martin's Press. It's done so well that it's been picked up by Sam's Club and the New York publisher is releasing it in paperback. "I suppose I tell the story as I wish I would have heard it," says Newell. "In the church we constantly preach to the choir. I'm fairly outrageous in my thinking, but Don LeFevre in Public Affairs helped me learn to temper and control my writing. Learning to tell the Latter-day Saint story to an audience is what I do on the job every day. I hope the book is an extension of what I've learned." As for "Latter Days," the style and tone of the book can be found in the first words of the prologue: He could have done something simple, like refuse to go to church or argue that the preacher was boring. After all, he was just a fourteen-year-old boy, and everyone would have understood. . . . But no, young Joseph Smith had to go and turn religion on its head, making claims no one had ever made, pushing buttons no one had ever pushed. Source: Volume on LDS history wins national readership Deseret News 30Jun01 A2 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,295007721,00.html By Jerry Johnston: Deseret News staff writer >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] _Ensign_ Article on Mormon Romance Date: 10 Jul 2001 21:03:00 -0000 I just looked up this article online, here is the URL for all of you that are interested http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm Enjoy! Tami Miller - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 10 Jul 2001 00:41:24 -0600 Frank Maxwell wrote: > For the record, Kathy does not live in Utah. She lives in the same > northern California city in which I live, though in a different ward. The > "current cultural climate" to which she refers is not the one that in which > most of the list members reside. Rather, it is one in which LDS teenagers > are a minority in their high school, in which non-Mormon mass media > influences predominate, in which modesty is not valued, and in which the > sanitized, euphemistic attitude that you decry has a negligible, if not > non-existent, effect. I don't think that makes much difference. We get the same mass media influence in Utah--it's national. And these girls are still growing up in the LDS subculture. There may be some difference, but I don't think it's a significant difference, certainly when the California MIA Maids are reacting in a way I can easily envision Utah MIA Maids reacting in. The rest of your post calls me to task for disagreeing with Kathy. I'm sorry if that's how my message came across. I was agreeing with her, and using her message to illustrate some points. > For the record, I'm the person who first referred to "voyeurism" in these > threads. But I did not do so in an accusatory way. I was, rather, talking > about general principles and phenomena. I'm sure you didn't think of yourself as accusing, but it's hard to take it any other way, especially when it's a blanket characterization toward a number of people you've never met. Perhaps suggesting that the only possible motive for placing sex scenes in literature is voyeurism isn't an accusation, but I don't think I'd be able to find another classification that's any more generous. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Kent HUFF, _Joseph Smith's United Order_ (Review) Date: 10 Jul 2001 02:07:28 -0600 JOSEPH SMITH'S UNITED ORDER by Kent W. Huff October 1998, Cedar Fort, Inc. Hardback, 367 pages "The United Order Will Never Be the Same, Part One" I was part of the crowd of LDS members who dreamed wistfully of the day when we can live under the United Order again. It seemed the best economic system for artists to labor under. It would abolish poverty and allow us to fully live the law of consecration. It would defang our dog-eat-dog world and usher in a Zion society. In my early days as an AML-Lister, I argued strongly in favor of a Zion society as a distinct culture, within which the United Order would play a significant role. I now retract everything I said back then. I once envisioned writing a sweeping LDS science fiction novel that would dig deep into and explore the United Order. I started gathering up books to do research on the subject. Kent Huff's two books, _Joseph Smith's United Order_ and _Brigham Young's United Order_, were in the group. I started reading them first. They ruined my science fiction book and completely changed my outlook of the United Order. Huff's premise is that we have the United Order all wrong. It is not an eternal principle. It was not established by revelation. Our concept of the Order today is one of those folk doctrines we've accepted that, when looked into in depth, does not bear up to scrutiny. His proof is in two parts, and hence the two books to present it. I'll also review the two books separately, although they are inseparably connected, and one cannot be read without the other. This will also make my two reviews awkward, as I try to demarcate a single unifying concept into two pieces of writing. The first book attempts to demonstrate that the United Order of Joseph Smith's time was nothing like the United Order of Brigham Young's time, nor like how we envision it today. It was in fact a legal partnership set up to function in a way very similar to how the modern Corporation of the President functions. Huff calls it the precursor to the Corporation of the President. Since corporate law in America was in its infancy and not fully established in those days, a partnership was used. A common synonym employed in Joseph Smith's time for the United Order was "united firm." The original purpose for the united firm was to facilitate the settling of Kirtland and Missouri. Saints would come into Kirtland as others would leave for Missouri. The entire revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants that we think of as the defining revelation for the United Order (as we understand it today) was nothing more than a temporary process to handle this in- and outflux of settlers. We've construed it as divine instruction for the economic system of a permanent Zion society, when in fact it was nothing more than a God-directed pragmatic solution for a temporary situation in the history of the church. Obviously a review is the wrong place to present the evidence for Huff's assertions--that's what the book is for. My job is to talk about the book itself. Huff is making no attempt in his book to write marvelous prose. His job is to convince, and his book is geared toward that. The descriptive chapters are pleasant enough to read, but they are interspersed with chapters that are detailed with evidence and require a scholarly attitude while reading. If you are highly skeptical of his claims, the evidence is there for you to digest. If you just want to understand what his claims are and get a general, descriptive argument for them, you can skip over the detailed evidence. The book is demarcated fairly well that way. Although this book needs the second book to complete the argument, it accomplishes an important function: to demonstrate that there never was a United Order as we understand it under the leadership of Joseph Smith, and that the supposed scriptural foundation for the system is a misinterpretation of scripture taken completely out of historical context. The next book, _Brigham Young's United Order_, takes on the much larger task of accounting for the origin of the mystical economic system that we have come to accept today as the divinely appointed system of any Zion society. And my review of that book will go more in-depth on my conclusions about both books. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: RE: [AML] Movie Happy Endings Date: 10 Jul 2001 14:16:29 -0000 [re: War of the Roses] I got the impression that Kathleen's character only grew into her selfishness as she and her husband succeeded and became rich. I vaguely remember some point in the story where they were living in squalor (something like squalor, anyway) and they earned enough money to buy him a new car for Christmas, and she was soooo excited about it. Anyway, they seemed alright to begin with, they just let money make them greedy and selfish. I hope I'm remembering this right, it's been years since I've seen this movie. I somehow got the impression that the point of the movie was what money and power can do to you if you let it overcome your life. Tami Miller - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: [AML] Morality and Art (was: Midstream Mormon Publisher) Date: 10 Jul 2001 08:51:00 -0600 I appreciate Eric Samuelsen's responses to my questions. Here are some follow-up comments. Eric writes: [...] >General Authorities are not artists; they are not conversant >with the various discourses taking place in the worlds of >artists. There are exceptions, aren't there? For example, Elder Packer is an artist of sorts, and his essay/address that leads off the BYU Press publication _Arts and Inspiration_ suggests that as long ago as 1976 he was involved in discourses pertaining to morality and the arts. >They just know what they don't like. I wonder if that isn't selling their statements a little short. The way they frame many of their General Conference statements on the arts suggests to me that they feel they are talking about something objective and not just a matter of their own personal preference. [...] >Surely no one would say that the choice to compose a concerto >in D minor is less moral than the choice to compose it in E >major. So why would the choice to use the word on the top of >page 116 in your dictionary be less moral than the choice to >use the word on the top of page 311? Perhaps the difference between words is greater than the difference between musical keys. Perhaps the choice between words that aren't vulgar and those that are is more akin to the choice between performing a concerto at a normal volume and having it amplified to a volume that is literally deafening. >Words convey meaning only within a context, and it is the >combination of words, not the words themselves, that have a >moral impact. Certainly there are objects that are morally inert until acted upon by a moral agent, and many words fall into this category. Yet it seems to me that there are some words that we are discouraged from using in just about every context, and it's not clear that there is an exception made for artistic creations. Certainly President Kimball's description of his experience at a San Francisco theater suggests that he didn't think there was an exception when it came to using sacred words in vulgar contexts: ". . . the actors, unworthy to unloose the latchets of the Lord's sandals, were blaspheming his sacred name in their common, vulgar talk. They repeated words of a playwright, words profaning the holy name of their Creator. The people laughed and applauded, and as I thought of the writer, the players, and the audience, the feeling came to me that all were party to the crime . . ." (_Improvement Era_, May 1953, p. 320.) [...] >These are television writers we're talking about here. >We're not talking about graphic depictions of sexual >activity or sexually provocative nudity. Right. I deliberately sought statements on television in order to eliminate the plausibility of explicating their remarks as only having application to hard core pornography. [...] >. . . authors are a kind of deity to their characters; that's >why we talk about 'limited omniscience' as a point of view, as >a writer's tool. But are authors' insights about individual's motivations only about the nonentities over which they have omniscience, or are they intended, as well, as insights about individuals in the real world? If the former, then I guess I don't understand all the talk about the edifying power of literature; why do I need insight into nonentities? If the latter, then authors are (indirectly) commenting on real persons' motivations. [...] >I cannot think of a single instance--not one--where an artist >created anything intending to do evil in the world. This struck me at first as a very bold statement: Out of the trillions of culpable acts committed by humans, none have been performed by artists in the creative process? But then if one pleads ignorance of others' motives, all this is is a statement about your own creations, isn't it? Still, that is impressive. More than one of the seven deadly sins played a role in the creation of the few (and utterly insignificant) works of art/ literature I produced in my younger days. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Provo Freedom Festival Parade Date: 10 Jul 2001 19:07:49 GMT This was a GREAT review of the Provo parade. I haven't been in a few years because now I live in a small town--Price--with very scaled-down parades. Here it's not unusual for one of the guys on a horse to stop for a minute and chat with you and there's so much throwing of salt-water taffy that every child can OD. What I really used to love about the Provo parades were the floats with Gospel singers--high energy--and, I blush to say, the Hare Krishna chanters/drummers. Why?--I think it is because it gave some cultural/artistic relief from the very thing that Eric noticed, the blow-by-blow float-by-float onslaught of Mormon cultural icons. Maybe that's why Eric loved the seagull-chasing car; it offered some relief. What I always hated the most were those floats with little girls dressed scanty doing hip-swinging BYU-cheerleader moves to blaring prerecorded music. For me that was ultimate vulgarity. But again I think it's a cultural thing, our barely-disguised fascination with skin and sublimated suggestiveness. This Fourth of July we climbed the bleachers at the Carbon County Fairgrounds and watched a short and sweet fireworks display, all of us sighing and shouting as it went. Great sense of community. We drove home, no traffic jams. It must a sign that I'm aging--every day I adore more small town living. Cathy Gileadi Wilson This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Provo Freedom Festival Parade Date: 10 Jul 2001 12:37:16 -0700 (PDT) --- "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > ON STAGE > > The Freedom Festival Parade in Provo as an example > of Mormon Theatre. > > By Eric Samuelsen > [snip] >Finally, the Mormon arts angle. Because a parade in >Provo is, has to be, Mormon. Stakes sponsored many >of the floats, and Mormon iconography was >omnipresent; handcarts, golden plates, seagulls, >Moroni. I found myself wondering about context. Is >a parade an appropriate place to show Joseph >retrieving the plates from the Hill Cumorah? One >float showed this last year (I don't think I saw it >this year.) Some poor kid, dressed like Joseph, had >to pick up the plates, put 'em back, pick 'em up, >put 'em back, the whole two miles of the parade >route. And people worry about the appropriateness of >religious imagery in Richard Dutcher films? Wonderful column. What's great about a parade (and the Mormon-style parade has a lot in common with those found in small to mid-size communities in the mid-west and the south) is that even though there are certain forms that one must follow (the genre, if you will, which includes all of those elements Eric describes), because of the often slap-dashed together elements of the parade (especially the floats) things appear that are either intentionally or unintentionally subversive. But to move on to appropriate religious imagery. Stop me if I told this one before, but one of the stories I tell over and over again happened on a trip down the CA coast and to Tijuana I took with the priests from my ward when I was 18 (a fluent Spanish speaker, father of one of the participants, former bishop was our guide). We went in to one of the little shops in Tijuana to look at the black velvet portraits---we wanted to find Elvis, of course. But there, high up on the wall, right next to Janet Jackson and just above Madonna, was a portrait of Joseph Smith. I registered a milli-second of shock before collapsing into laughter. The prophet as popstar. It was fantastic. Of course John Paul III had his representation as well so it wasn't all that unique. Assuming that the proprietor wasn't Mormon and simply paying tribute to his icon, I have to imagine that such a portrait wouldn't exist without consumer demand. But where are these consumers? Have any of you seen a Joseph Smith painted on black velvet hanging in anyone's home? Now here's the real issue. I personally feel that, as tempting as it would be, it would not be appropriate for me to hang such a painting in my home because I wouldn't be using a proper context. I would be doing it as kitsch---simply to shock (or share a wry smile with)other Mormons. I imagine though that there may be other saints out there for whom this picture would be entirely in keeping with their aesthetic values. Their context would make it appropriate to display such a portrait. What I'm trying to say is that our aesthetic values have bearing on the appropriate use of imagery. This is a relativist stance, so I do want to make it clear that I do believe that there are some boundaries of taste that it is inappropriate to cross, but on the whole I think that often I'm too easily offended by the way in which other Mormons use LDS iconography. While I want to be discriminating in my own tastes, I need to be a little less elitist in my attitude towards those who don't share those tastes, my aesthetic preferences. Of course, that resolution doesn't stop me from trying to seek understanding and appreciation of my preferences in return. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 10 Jul 2001 13:00:28 -0700 (PDT) --- Christopher Bigelow wrote: > As far as religious tools go, they have typewriters, > we have computers. Yeah, you can get some similar > overlapping results using both tools, but the > computer is much more powerful and opens > revolutionary new horizons. People who can't > recognize that aren't bad, but they are generally > limited in their thinking and in their religious > imagination. It plays into what Pres. Hinckley often > says to members of other faiths, something like, > "Let us add to the good you already have." I'm > sorry, but I do pity people who continue using > typewriters when they could use a computer. > > I don't like fiction that exists mainly to > proselytize people into the Church, but on the other > hand I don't mind if things like this > typewriter/computer comparison come out, even > explicitly. Like in my own writing, it comes out in > the form of "Yeah, but even computers have a > downside and can be tiresome. . . " > This is the kind of literature I'm interested in at the moment. I want to understand the dangers of this computer/typewriter attitude. What does it mean to live in the messy mortal world with a firm (but perhaps not unwavering) testimony that you know what the goals of this existence are and the way to attain those goals? How does one handle the gap between the ideal and the real, the knowledge and the practice? But along with that I want to read about the payoffs. The moments where the ideal and the real converge, where a new understanding is gained, a testimony is illumined, a life is put back on track. This sounds a lot like the didactic literature that already exists but I don't know how quite to describe it...so yes, tiresome, but also sometimes incredibly fulfilling and thrilling and invigorating. Somebody show me the ecstatic in Mormon literature. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 10 Jul 2001 14:12:05 -0600 D. Michael Martindale writes: >Beth, you must go back and look some more. Surely you missed >a quote somewhere where B.Y. says: "...except for sex--don't read >about that." Otherwise, these quotes seem to pretty much clinch >my side of the argument. Before we conclude that Brigham thought reading fiction was a good way to learn the truth about good and evil, perhaps we should take a look at _J of D_ 9:173 and 15:224, as well. (Not to mention the letter he wrote to his son Fera the week before he died.) And it's hard for me to picture the man who told the Saints to keep their private follies to themselves because he did "not want to know anything about it" reading a lot of sexually explicit fiction in order to enhance his grasp of the truth. [D. Michael again] >Is it a fair statement to say that the basic reason for >wanting sex kept "behind closed doors" is embarrassment? No, I don't think so. Doesn't Elder Holland address this in "Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments"? [D. Michael again] >Why else would people not want on-screen sex in their literature? I'm assuming that embarrassment isn't the only reason why you don't have sex in front of your children. Might some of these other reasons apply to on-screen sex in literature, as well? Amelia Parkin writes: [...] >Since when do Mormons have the Gospel and, let's say, Baptists do >not? Last time I checked, there were still more copies of the Bible >sold than any other book, worldwide. And if the Bible doesn't >contain the Gospel of Christ, what does? The angel of the Lord seems to have told Nephi that the Bible had many plain and precious parts of the Gospel of Christ taken away from it. [Amelia again] >There are people who will never, in this life time, be Mormon. And >they are every bit as good as you and me. And they have as much >access to the Gospel as they need in order to be good people. But couldn't the lost plain and precious parts make them better? [Amelia again] >I said I want the latitude to represent the actuality that joy and >sin can be conflated in the same act or set of acts. It seems to me that you have that latitude now. Of course, by the same token, others have latitude to criticize the resulting product if they think it's wrong. [Amelia again] >The fact that [sex] happens outside of the bonds of marriage may make >it sinful but it does not negate the fact that it is a loving act, >one which may and probably does bring joy. That creates a >whole new situation than that of the situation of depraved sexual >sin. Both President Kimball and President Hinckley have made strongly worded statements identifying sexual sin with lust and not love, even when that sin occurs within the context of what the world would consider normal, non-depraved relationships. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Realistic Newspaper Reporters Date: 10 Jul 2001 13:25:07 -0700 (PDT) --- "Eric D. Snider" wrote in a response to Rex Goode's query about reporters: > The main thing fiction usually gets wrong about > reporters is making > them too hardened. Granted, being surrounded by the > cold realities of > the news all day tends to make one a little > world-weary. But > reporters are, for the most part, still human > beings. The cliche of > shoving other reporters out of the way, rushing up > to a person whose > house has just burned down, and saying, "How do you > feel right now?" > rings more false than true. Reporters who have to > get difficult > stories like that usually have to take a deep > breath, gather their > nerves, and then plunge ahead, as discreetly and > inobtrusively as > possible. We don't like hounding people anymore than > the average > person would. Our job requires is sometimes, though, > and so we do it. Now for the view from the dark side (public relations): Not that much different actually. I like most of the reporters I work with and yes, "world weary but not hardened" is a great decription. Often the hardened ones are the editors and so the reporters sometimes ask questions they'd prefer not to because they are being pushed by their editor. If you want to make your reporter a little more sympathetic you can foist the evil characteristics on to the editor (Although I'm sure Eric's editors aren't in the least bit evil). A major tension for the reporter is balancing his/her feelings of simpatico (or hiding dislike) with the subject/person(s) being reported on with the demands of the story. > > Reporters, like anyone who works with words, tend to > be erudite and > well-spoken. They generally enjoy reading. And witty. But always on point or at least when off point doing so in a way that puts their interviewees at ease. Their dialogue should be snappy. Reporters (the good ones) are charmers but they also have to manipulate conversations to get the info. they need for the story. In a way, they follow the missionary commitment pattern. Build a relationship of trust, find common ground (by exhibiting what they already know about the specific story or the background/context for the story), and then get to the point (the central questions). > > Reporters usually get passionate about the beat they > cover. They > develop intense rivalries with whomever covers the > same beat for the > rival newspaper, if there is one. (There almost > always is). If they > cover city council meetings, they know all the > council members > personally and have a love-hate relationship with > them: Love because > they give them good stories, and hate because > they're politicians. Yes. Passionate about their beats is a must for any literary representation of a reporter if he/she is a minor character. The sincerely believe that by reporting the news that they do (whether their beat is education, business or city hall), they are doing a public service. One caveat: Often because they are so passionate about their beats they develop certain prejudices about the topics they cover which means in any interview they will focus in on the topics and attitudes that will fit their prejudices (which they often consider to be simply the beliefs and concerns of their average readers). What this means in depicting a scene of a conversation between a reporter and a source is that often what the source thinks is crucial to the story, the reporter will see as a minor point and want to focus on other aspects of the story. > One more thing. Reporters are way underpaid. See > what you can do > about that, will you? No comment. ~~William Morris (Actually reporters are underpaid-- although I hear Eric makes the big bucks. Didn't you just buy a nice house right next door to Stephen Covey's large, white, night-lighted manse-trosity?) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis Manning" Subject: [AML] Quoting from Church Handbook (was: Fiction in Church Mags) Date: 10 Jul 2001 15:14:34 -0600 Don't we need to be careful about quoting from the _Church Handbook of Instruction_? I just cringe when I remember that story last year about that couple that published the entire _Church Handbook of Instruction_ on the web, and the Church legally challenged this couple's ability to publish it online, and won because it was copyrighted. Granted, this small quote is not part of a temple ceremony or anything sacred, but *how much* are we allowed to quote from this important _Church Handbook of Instruction_, classified for church leaders who have leadership positions (as I understand it)? I don't know if we can even anecdotedly refer to it . . . Is there a church policy on how much, or what percentage of this book we can directly quote from? I say this because in these manuals there is touchy info only for Bishops and Stake Presidents to know, is my understanding . . . . Any opinions on this? Travis Manning **************************** >Melissa Proffit: > >... stories that really happened are more valuable >than the made-up kind. > >Annette Lyon: > >... there was something in it [the handbook] about ... > >_______________ > >Church Handbook of Instructions, p. 239: > >"Make-Believe in Primary > >Children should know that they learn the truth in Primary. >If a person uses a make-believe story or situation to >teach a gospel principle, he or she should explain that >the story is make-believe." > >_____ > >I see the wisdom in this policy. I also see some >practicallity here. There is a lot to be covered in >Primary and other Church classes that is true. I >have found there is little time for other things, as >interesting or nice or fun as they might be. > >(I make brief exceptions for quality humor.) > >Someone mentioned the Steeds in a gospel >doctrine class. The response was, "Who?" > >Larry Jackson > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: [AML] _Harvest_ Accepting Submissions Date: 10 Jul 2001 21:27:52 -0500 Harvest is an online magazine for the LDS community that began in October of 1999, and temporarily closed in December of 2000. After being offline for the past 7 months, Harvest will re-debut in the near future (hopefully the end of August, beginning of Sept), with renewed focus and direction. Harvest is now accepting submissions and you can find the writing guidelines at http://www.geocities.com/cloudhill/write.htm Dallas Robbins cloudhill@hotmail.com harvestmagazine@home.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] _Ensign_ Article on Mormon Romance (comp) Date: 11 Jul 2001 11:30:01 -0500 [MOD: Please note that a link to the Marilyn Arnold article has already been posted. This compilation includes some comments before it was posted, reactions to the article, and additional notices including the link and/or instructions for accessing it. In other words, some redundancy, but some good comments as well.] >From mjames_laurel@email.msn.com Tue Jul 10 10:15:33 2001 an old Ensign magazine...that had an > > article > > on the writing of romance fiction. I haven't read it in its entirety > > yet, > > but skimming it, I see the writer questions the quality of LDS romance > > fiction. > > This was in an Ensign?? Which issue was it? This would be an interesting > article to read online. There was an excellent article by Eloise Bell in the Ensign a few years ago addressing romance novels, although I don't remember it differentiating between LDS/national market romance novels. However, I recall thinking at the time the points made certainly applied to both LDS and national books. I believe a similar article may have appeared previously in another LDS oriented publication, possibly something affiliated with BYU (the alumni magazine perhaps? Can't remember.) Be that as it may, you should be able to find the Ensign article by searching at lds.org under Eloise Bell's name. Laurel Brady >From cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Tue Jul 10 13:11:18 2001 Jeff writes: > It's in the February 1987 issue. It's by Marilyn Arnold and it's very > insightful. I would love to read this. . .IS it online someplace? You know that Marilyn Arnold was Academic? Administrative? VP at BYU for a long time. She lived in our ward when I lived in Woodland Hills. I understand she retired and moved to St George. It was fun attending RS when she was there-- certainly always something fresh and new to think about. Cathy Gileadi Wilson >From ChrisB@enrich.com Tue Jul 10 14:21:38 2001 [MOD: I think that Chris's URL got corrupted by a combination of his MIME format and the process I use to paste messages into compilation posts...] The article is online at http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll/ArchMagaz= ines/Ensign/1987.htm/ensign%20february%201987.htm/a%20look%20at%20popular%2= 0romance%20fiction%20confessions%20of%20an%20english%20teacher.htm?fn=3Ddoc= ument-frame.htm&f=3Dtemplates&2.0=20 It's actually quite surprising to me that it ran in the Ensign. Somehow it = seems more lively and opinionated and out on a limb than usual. She = advocates Flannery O'Connor, Willa Cather, and Anne Tyler--so does that = mean the Church advocates those artists as well? (The perennial dilemma of = the Ensign). Even though Tyler sometimes writes approvingly of nonmarital = sex? Chris Bigelow >From jerry.tyner@qlogic.com Tue Jul 10 16:40:27 2001 This is most definitely on-line. It is also on the LDS Gospel Resources CD which has all of the past Ensigns dating from 1970 to 1999. Just type in Marilyn Arnold and search the Ensigns and it will come up. Jerry Tyner >From barbara@techvoice.com Tue Jul 10 19:43:24 2001 At 09:03 PM 7/10/01 +0000, you wrote: >I just looked up this article online, here is the URL for all of you that >are interested >http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm > >Enjoy! >Tami Miller Thanks for the URL. Glad to know about that site. Too bad Marilyn Arnold totally and completely missed the point of romance literature. But we readers and writers of romance are used to being patronized and misunderstood, so I won't say a word--not a single word. barbara hume >From jeff.needle@general.com Tue Jul 10 20:06:48 2001 Great! Thanks for finding it. Jeff Needle >From SmithKG@ldschurch.org Wed Jul 11 08:18:48 2001 All Ensign article are online at www.lds.org. Enjoy! Kerry Smith - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 10 Jul 2001 15:30:28 -0500 >So, tell us your favorite piece(s) of instituional Mormon art, I think the period of art (as in visual arts) that I find the most fascinating is the late 1800s-early 1900s when people were called on art missions to Europe. (Now THAT'S a mission I would have enjoyed!) I think the main point was so that the artists could come back and do a nice job on temple murals. It's interesting to see what kinds of art they came up with. Some of it is impressionistic and some is even kind of art nouveau. John Hafen's work (some is in the Salt Lake Temple) is kind of impressionistic. Lee Greene Richards has some art nouveau in the garden room of the Alberta Temple. They are rather well-done technique-wise, and the subject matter doesn't seem to be overdone (in comparison to those smarmy recent paintings by various artists of a girly-looking Christ with little kids and lots of fuzzy light all over the place). You don't feel suffocated by sweetness. Another nice painting is Tom Lovell's picture of Moroni burying the brass plates. I was born back east and it really seems to convey the feeling of the area. (Plus he's picked up on the idea we all have from Friberg that all Nephites were practically exploding with muscle...) I don't know if they were commissioned or not, but I really dislike those C.C.A. Christensen paintings of the trek west. The form is just so folk art Americana that I feel distracted. It doesn't make me think of the heroicness of our heritage; it makes me wonder why they are so cutesy. I believe Christensen was a contemporary of the period, but I still don't care for the paintings. Rose Green _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Realistic Newspaper Reporters Date: 10 Jul 2001 14:31:08 -0700 Thanks to everyone who replied for the feedback on newspaper reporters. Fortunately, my newspaper reporter character doesn't fit the stereotype. I was wanting to make him different than that. Looks like I'll get my wish. Eric, thanks for telling me that newspaper reporters tend to be erudite and well-spoken. One television character I want to avoid is Carl Kolchak ("The Night Stalker") played by Darrin McGavin. Loved watching the stories when I was a teen, even though the plots were hopelessly formulaic. I couldn't help imagining him when I read your description. Snappy dresser he wasn't. My reporter is not LDS. Some of the people he's reporting on are. It's not Utah, either. Being a coffee-guzzler doesn't fit him. I'm sure he drinks coffee, but doesn't subsist on it. Somehow, swearing doesn't fit him either. Most of the time he is prominent in the story he's actually with his family, a wife and a pre-teen daughter. Sometimes he's "in the field" investigating some of the goings-on in the plot, and even gets sucked into some of the action. I had not even considered showing him interacting with other reporters. He's the most moral person in the story, and the smartest. I couldn't raise his pay for you, Eric, but I can make him the character the readers will like the most. So far, all of my characters are not sewn together right. I mean, they have little unexpected anomalies. I'm glad that I didn't go for the stereotypical reporter. My reporter is even less stereotypical than what you describe. Two weeks ago, I had the experience of meeting a small-town reporter, very small town. He worked for the local paper, a weekly that looks like its mostly ads. I was sitting on a fence at a rest area, guarding a few bikes. The riders of the bikes, the Young Men in my ward, had been shuttled by RV up to the top of Cape Perpetua on the Oregon Coast. A man in his late thirties, nice beard, conservative clothes, and a belly pack had stopped to use the restroom. He walked over to me instead of going to his car and said, "Nice-looking bikes. Whose are they?" In my typical smart-mouth fashion, I said, "I'm riding all of 'em." He laughed and said, "I should warn you that I'm a reporter." It made me wonder why I needed a warning. He asked me a few questions about why I was there and took my picture. The following Saturday, my picture appeared in the weekly along with the story of our Young Men's high adventure trip. I thought it was interesting that as I was thinking about my reporter character, I should happen to meet a reporter and he would do a story about me. That was my one and only encounter with a flesh-and-blood reporter. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Writing by Mormons and Non (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 10 Jul 2001 16:03:57 -0600 At 11:07 AM 7/9/01 -0700, you wrote: >As far as religious tools go, they have typewriters, we have computers. I've been reading quite a few books on religious subjects by non-Mormons, and I've been enjoying myself---and learning. It's been interesting to me to see what's been going on in the Protestant world since I left it in 1970. These writers are, for the most part, dealing with the same issues and experiencing the same joys and sorrows that we are. I've seen a dismay among them, however, in the secularization of the Christian world. Writers are saying that one reason many churches are closing is that the rank and file dislike churches in which they are told that the virgin birth is a myth, that the Bible is full of alllusions that no one should take literally, that Jesus was a good man but hey, the son of God theory has to go. We don't hear that sort of thing preached from our pulpits. Another interesting thing I noticed is that they come down much harder on homosexuality than our church does, apparently assuming that it's a choice, not something a person can be born with and that he may struggle against. I also see these writers saying over and over that we need to concentrate on the teachings and example of the Savior rather than bickering over nonessential differences. I must admit that I have been fascinated by the Left Behind series. I've read all of the books except the last one, and they tell a pretty good story. But I don't agree with some of the writers' interpretations of prophetic passages--and what that has done is to send me to the Scriptures myself to see what they say. Then I want to look into what our prophets have said about them, and what modern scriptures say about the end times. I want to know why I think what I think about it! One thing that particularly interests me is this business about the Rapture (a term that for some reason irritates me, but it's really just another term for being translated) and why they believe Christ will actually come twice, seven years apart. I became so interested in the subject that I borrowed from the library a non-fiction book by LaHayes and Jenkins called Are We Living in the End Times? to see where they get their notions. So here I am, with their book and my Scriptures, making comparisons. Sometimes they make assertions without any supporting evidence, sometimes they seem to make sense, and sometimes--well, from Ezekiel 38-39 they get that Russia will attack Israel at the beginning of the Tribulation. Fascinating stuff. The point is, I find that I can't make any assertions at all, because I know next to nothing about these prophesies, and anything that makes me try to learn about them is doing a good thing. BTW, did you know that there's a movie of Left Behind? When did that come out? I missed it. Anyhow, it has Kirk Cameron in it (he sure grew up nice) and Brad Johnson. I thought it was pretty well done, but then I'm not a movie critic. I borrowed it from the library. It shows a concept of what things might be like during the Tribulation. He never says anything about Mormons, so I can only assume that we are all translated! ha! The fundamentalist Christians are the heroes. You gotta admit that those books have done a lot to popularize certain religious viewpoints. They even did a series of books for young adults featuring teenagers in the same venue. If those guys can do it, we can do it. And probably better (The books definitely need to impose Ken Rand's 10% Solution.) And relative to another thread on this list, I found the good guys in these novels to be interesting. I would mention that Richard Dutcher's good guys are interesting, but if he's still on this list I don't want to give him a swelled head after all my other positive comments on his work. Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 10 Jul 2001 17:28:38 -0600 On Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:10:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Amelia Parkin writes: > Below is what Kellene Adams wrote about writing about good > Mormons in literature. I would like to foreground what I think is > the central issue at hand. Kellene asks why it is that writing > about "good Mormons" has to be boring and sappy. She goes > on to tell the story of some "good Mormons" who have > experienced plenty of problems. So here's my question: why > is it that we continue to insist on breaking Mormons up into > categories like "good," "faithful," "bad," "unrepresentative"? > To do so is ridiculous. Just wanted to let you know that I really like the way you think and express your thoughts. Often times you beat me to the punch with a comment and say it much better than I would. Thanks. J. Scott Bronson -- Member of Playwrights Circle --- "The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent upon it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do." Galileo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan Skarstedt" Subject: RE: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 10 Jul 2001 18:04:49 -0600 I have never had enough interest in the church magazines to bother distinguishing between true stories and fictional accounts. Truthfully, I am so apathetic when it comes to church mags that I was not aware, until I read this thread, that there had ever been fiction in official church magazines at all (are we talking the Ensign here?). On the rare occasions that I did read a church magazine it made no difference to me at all and I certainly don't feel betrayed now that I have discovered that some of the stories I have read may have been fiction. I find this to be significant (I know how arrogant it sounds to cite my own attitudes as significant, I apologize) because it simply does not matter. The principles are/were the important thing. Anyone who applies the specifics of a story, gospel or otherwise, to their life as some sort of true principle, is firing on less than all cylinders. However, correct principles that we learn from reading stories, true, gospel or otherwise, can be applied with impunity. Let me elaborate. Let us say that I read a story in which the protagonist had a problem with say... smoking, and he was able to resolve his problem by humbling himself and going to his father for advice. If I, struggling with the same problem, were to say to myself, "Self, this story says I should go to my father for help with my problem." and I do that very thing, even though my father is an unrecovered/unrepentant alcoholic/chain-smoker/pedophile, I am being extraordinarily foolish. If, however, I say to myself, this story says I ought to go get help from someone I love and respect because I won't be able to handle it on my own and I (of the alcoholic/chain-smoker/pedophile father) go to my bishop or my respectable uncle or a teacher or a counselor... I have learned a true principle from the story. The story could be true, it could be fiction, it simply does not matter. Essentially, I guess I'm saying that while I understand the decision to remove fiction from official church literature, and agree that there are plenty of people who operate on flawed ideas of how to gain insight from church literature, I am saddened by the need to do so and what that says about the state of our culture's intellectual sophistication. [Ethan Skarstedt] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 10 Jul 2001 19:46:18 -0600 At 11:20 PM 7/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >"Children should know that they learn the truth in Primary. >If a person uses a make-believe story or situation to >teach a gospel principle, he or she should explain that >the story is make-believe." When my daughter's first son, at the age of seven or so, asked her the truth about Santa Claus, she said that what he had heard was true--Santa Claus was an interesting character that added fun to the season, but he wasn't a real person. He thought about that for a while, and then said, "Hey! What about the Easter bunny?" The reason she didn't insist on trying to force the kid to believe in Santa Claus is that she didn't want him, somewhere down the road, to say, "Hey! What about Jesus?" Barbara R. Hume, Editorial Empress Complete range of writing and editing services High-tech a specialty TechVoice, Inc. (801) 765-4900 barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Re: (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art (comp) Date: 11 Jul 2001 23:39:03 -0500 >From skperry@mac.com Tue Jul 10 20:37:29 2001 on 7/10/01 6:55 PM, Jonathan Langford at jlang2@pressenter.com wrote: > Favorite: Everything painted by Minerva Teichert. BY sent her to France to > study with the masters. There were several painters sent by Brigham to study in France, but Minerva Teichert was not one of them (she was still alive in 1970). She did study art in Chicago and New York, however. She's always been one of my 2 or 3 favorite LDS painters. She also painted murals for one of the temples--forgive me, I don't have time to look up which just now--and she painted a beautiful work called "The Sacrament" for the cover of my new CD. Okay, she painted it for other reasons, but BYU is letting us use it. In fact, why not go to: http://stevenkappperry.com right now and have a look? And buy a CD? :-) Go Minerva! Steve Perry >From andrewrhall@hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 20:43:04 2001 It has been a long time since I've seen it, but of the films I think I liked "How Rare a Possession" best. It was released around 1987, and was about the Book of Mormon. Both the two main stories were well written and acted (Parly P. Pratt and the Italian minister who found the coverless BoM and gained a testimony of it long before he found the Church). It powerfully presented the message of the importance the book in these people's lives without being manipulative, like Together Forever was. Like Thom, Minerva Teichert is my favorite Mormon artist. I saw the exhibition at BYU on her Book of Mormon paintings, and was blown away by them. I think at least some of them were painted for churchouses, so fit under my "instituional" rubric. Certainly her mural in the Manti Temple World room fits. It is an amazing work, I was very surprised by it when I first went. The Salt Lake and other world rooms usually show animals attacking each other, but when she repainted the room in 1947 she did an amazing, vibrant representation of the history of the world from Babel to the establishment of Zion in the rockies (the origional, more traditional mural by CCA Christensen had flaked away). There is a very interesting article in BYU Studies (1999, 38:3) that I just read about the creation and symbolism of the mural, with detailed color pictures. But she came after Brigham Young's day, so I think Thom is mixing up her training experience with those four or so artists that BY sent to Paris in the 1870s or so to prepare to create the origional temple murals. She studied in NYC and Chicago. And I don't think her style was Impressionist. Thom wrote: >Favorite: Everything painted by Minerva Teichert. BY sent her to France to >study with the masters. As an Impressionist, she didn't paint to tell a >story, >but to make you feel what was going on, which she did with wonderful >mastery. >Also, she lived a lifestyle that was about as Bohemian as a Mormon in good >standing could get. > My least favorite temple rooms are the terrestrial and celestial rooms in the SLC temple. I find them strangely garish and ornate. Pagents: Cumorah was pretty good, but I was put off by a lot of the Manti pagent (1990). Especially depicting Brigham Young agreeing to create the Mormon Battalion out of patriotism, followed by a fit of flag waving. That was a pretty serious misrepresentation of the history; the Mormons were not feeling especially patriotic in 1848. I'm not sure exactly who puts that on, the stakes in Manti? Andrew Hall >From skperry@mac.com Wed Jul 11 10:57:08 2001 on 7/10/01 2:30 PM, Rose Green at hvozdany@hotmail.com wrote: > I don't know if they were commissioned or not, but I really dislike those > C.C.A. Christensen paintings of the trek west. The form is just so folk art > Americana that I feel distracted. It doesn't make me think of the > heroicness of our heritage; it makes me wonder why they are so cutesy. I > believe Christensen was a contemporary of the period, but I still don't care > for the paintings. I like those paintings for the history involved. Also, that the painter knew he wasn't world-class, but still not only painted them, but hauled all those huge murals around "Zion," as then constituted, telling the saints their own history. Some of the paintings even have smoke damage from candles held up to them during the expositions and retellings. Seeing them all together in a recent BYU Museum of Art exhibition was grand. :-) Steve Perry >From REWIGHT@telusplanet.net Wed Jul 11 12:38:05 2001 (in comparison to those smarmy recent paintings > by various artists of a girly-looking Christ with little kids and lots of > fuzzy light all over the place). Hey, I like those pieces. I don't think Christ is girly looking and I love paintings of children. Greg Olsen and Simon Dewey are among my favorite artists. There's a warmth and gentleness in Christ's face that so many artists don't show. Recently in Edmonton Alberta there was a display about Jesus in the museum that recieved rave reviews from various churches and individuals. I paid my money and went through it. I hated it. It was dark and depressing. Most of the images were of Christ's death. Of course Christ's crucifiction should be part of such a show, but it took over. Little was about his life, or the effects of how his life and sacrifice impacted the world. There wasn't much about the various Christian churches (I think Martin Luther King and Mother Teresa got a nod), but nothing on Joseph Smith, Martin Luther or anybody else who wasn't Catholic. Little was shown of the apostles. Only one image of Jesus with children among the hundreds of images. Hardly anything on Jesus' Judaism. There were two themes, his birth and his death. I couldn't help thinking how our church could have done it better, and how our contemporary artists capture Christ more wholly. I did not feel the spirit there (it was too dark and heavy feeling there), but I did feel it later that day when I walked into a church bookstore and looked the pictures of Christ that Greg Olsen does. I've been in the Alberta temple many times and to be honest, I'm not crazy about the murals there. I guess I think that if you're supposed to feel like your in the garden room, telestial and terrestial room, then the paintings should be realistic. There's that guy Christianson (I think), he does some wonderful fantasy characters. I like his paintings. Not religious, just fun. Anna Wight >From dmichael@wwno.com Wed Jul 11 14:27:11 2001 Rose Green wrote: > (Plus he's picked up on the idea we all have from Friberg that > all Nephites were practically exploding with muscle...) What do you expect? They went around lopping the swoard-wielding arms of Lamanites off--they had to be muscular. D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 11 Jul 2001 01:36:35 -0600 I noticed that all the examples given of interesting "good" characters were actually well-rounded characters, not technically "good." They had good characteristics about them, but they also had weaknesses and foibles, and it was those in fact that made them interesting. A strictly "good" character is indeed boring. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KGrant100@aol.com Subject: [AML] Sex Date: 10 Jul 2001 23:37:38 EDT Hi Michael, As sometimes happens, in my rush to fit in a post between a million other=20 things, I was ambiguous. I apologize. I think you and I have similar views= .=20 More below . . . Kathy Grant wrote: >> Could you clarify what you meant when you >> said, "I'm not sure we can turn the minds >> of these hot teenagers much"?=A0 This is a >> topic I'm very interested in, as YW counselor >> working with the Mia Maids.=A0 The girls seem >> to be simulaneously interested in and a little >> embarrassed by talk of physical intimacy, and >> they definitely have some distorted ideas >> they've assimilated from the current cultural >> climate.=A0 But they also love good stories--I'm=20 > finding that's a wonderful way to reach them. >Here in a nutshell is what I'm talking about. Embarrassment and >distorted ideas from "the current cultural climate" about physical >intimacy. ("Sex" for the euphemistically challenged.) The aforementioned >climate would be the one that doesn't want to have any sex in its >literature--it should all be behind closed doors where we can assume >what's happening. (So what are the people with distorted ideas >assuming?) To clarify, the cultural climate I was referring to is one in which our=20 teenage girls are pressured by peers to be sexually active, or at least to g= o=20 a lot farther than they should before marriage, and they're looked down on i= f=20 they are "goody-goodies"; in which the music and TV they're immersed in=20 glorifies premarital sex (exactly the point you made about Titanic, though I= =20 objected to the nude scene for the same reason--it took place between two=20 unmarried people). I want my girls to undestand how wonderful sex is, and t= o=20 hold it sacred. >What does this invoke in the girls? Interest. Except I'd put it: >INTEREST! Curiosity made all the more urgent because they are getting no >information to satisfy it, and are inheriting the embarrassment their >parents feel, so they find it hard to seek out the information >themselves from any reliable source. (Hence, distorted ideas.) Yes! If parents and leaders can't be candid about sex, the girls will get=20 information elsewhere. I know--I used to be a teenager :) >Kathy says she's reaching them through stories. I can't help but wonder >what stories she's using. Certainly nothing in the LDS repertoire, >because there is no physical intimacy there. It's all behind closed >doors where we don't see it (and therefore can't learn anything from >it.) I can see why my post was confusing. When I said the Mia Maids respond well= =20 to stories, I was talking in general terms. Specifically, in one recent=20 lesson on kindness and respect I used two poignant true stories from the=20 Yorgasons' book _Others_. The stories really seemed to affect the girls. The discussion on sex came up on a different evening, and I spoke candidly t= o=20 the girls. That's when I noticed they seemed both interested and some were=20= a=20 little embarrassed--but I think it may have been because they weren't quite=20 expecting such frankness from their 40-something leader :) I don't think I=20 was too graphic, but I tried to be honest. I've never forgotten the night=20 many years ago when one of my own mutual teachers told us, while discussing=20 appropriate intimacy, that kissing was fun :) (She was right :) ) I was=20 quite surprised to hear that from an adult, but how I appreciated her candor= !=20 I want to be the same way for my girls. Again, I especially would rather=20 have them gettting a gospel-based perspective from me than a worldly view=20 from their peers and others, which is what would happen if I avoided the=20 subject. So what I meant in my post was that stories seem to be a good way to reach=20 the girls, so I was intrigued by the idea of gospel-centered stories=20 exploring sexual issues in an appropriate way for that age group. >Let's talk about embarrassment for a moment. Is it a fair statement to >say that the basic reason for wanting sex kept "behind closed doors" is >embarrassment? Why else would people not want on-screen sex in their >literature? It can't be because sex is a sin. Sex is usually not a sin; >it's usually a glorious expression of love, the "very key" to the plan >of salvation. But even when it is a sin, that can't be the reason. We >can read about other sins depicted live. To be blunt, I don't want on-screen sex (I assume by that you mean=20 non-euphemistic, explicit sex) in my literature because it's too enticing. =20= I=20 don't mind tasteful references to intimacy, but I don't want to read a scene= =20 that is so graphic that I have trouble controlling my thoughts or reactions.= =20 Am I being clear enough? I'm still single (though I have two married sister= s=20 and many married friends, so I'm not exactly naive about sex, and if I ever=20 marry, I'm looking forward with great anticipation to that blessing). But=20 for now, if I start my thoughts going that direction, I start to lose the=20 Spirit. The Spirit has, in fact, lovingly but firmly reprimanded me on=20 occasion when I have let my thoughts go too far. So for me, it has nothing t= o=20 do with embarrassment, but with keeping sexual matters within appropriate=20 bounds. >And you try to tell me that hiding sex in my writing is a good thing. >You try to accuse me of voyeurism when I put it in. I'm getting real >tired of the accusation. I'm also beginning to wonder what sort of >relationship those who make the accusation have with sex. Why does every >invocation of sex seem voyeuristic to you? You are speaking generally here, not to me directly, right? I never said th= e=20 things you mention above--in fact, my post to Marilyn was the only one I=20 previously made on this subject. (BTW, I thank Frank for his gallant defens= e=20 in my behalf :) ) Hope this clears things up. Kathy Grant - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 10 Jul 2001 22:19:21 -0600 Eric Samuelsen: > >Worst insitutional Mormon art: >Johnny Lingo is very disturbing. But it can't hold a candle to Tom = >Trails. Tom Trails was so awful, it was excellent (give that word the = >proper high school enthusiasm.) In seminary, growing up, we couldn't wait = >to see the new Tom Trails. Not, I regret to say, for any of the right = >reasons; we gave it something of an LDS MST3K treatment. I remember = >fondly snorting with laughter in the back row with the bishop's daughter, = >while our more straitlaced friends shushed us. When the Garrens Comedy Troupe was still a functional organization, I did several "Mystery Science Theater"-style mockings of some of these very films we're talking about. We'd show the film to the audience, and another cast member and I would do live pre-scripted hecklings. They were enormously popular, as we were doing in public what everyone else had been doing in private all those years. The first and most popular was "Johnny Lingo." What a delightfully stupid film, where the moral is that it's wrong to make women feel like objects by assigning them a certain number of cows -- unless you can fix it so YOUR woman is worth the MOST cows, in which case it's fine. Next was "The Gift," where the boy gets up to do his dad's chores on the farm. Our heckling here was more good-natured, as the film itself is not a bad one. ("Why must I be so bland?" we had the boy wondering. Also, the fact that his dad was about 1,000 years older than the kids was the source of several jokes.) The most controversial was "Cipher in the Snow." I stand fast in my position that this is the most dreadful movie ever manufactured by a well-meaning organization. In case you've managed to forget it, it's about a boy who, while on his way to school one day, suddenly gets off the bus and pitches face-first into the snow, where he dies. Turns out he died because he wasn't loved. His mother was apathetic, and his stepfather was verbally abusive (and looked like Chris Farley). The message -- that every soul is important -- is a fine one, and we took care to point out BEFORE we showed the movie that we whole-heartedly supported the message. What we objected to was the morbid, heavy-handed, over-simplified way it was presented. The fact that Cliff was the child of divorced parents was the movie's shorthand for explaining his predicament. The kid's teacher (who looked like Bill Bixby on "The Incredible Hulk") and the principal (who looked like Phil Hartman) went ON AND ON AND ON AND ON about how children who don't receive love might suffer physically. Dreadful stuff. The reason is was controversial was that it was difficult to convey our support of the message while conveying our disgust with the messenger, as it were. We also tried carefully not to make fun of the boy in the film, as we didn't want to heap more persecution on him than he was already getting. We also had to cut out a few minutes' worth of film because it was just too morbidly sad. A rather sunnier movie, but no less strange, was called "Lilies Grow Wild," starring the wonderful Ms. Barta Heiner (last seen as Crazy Mother of Porn Guy in "Brigham City"). She plays a teacher at a one-room schoolhouse who has trouble with a rebellious kid named Jeddy. One day, he gets in a fight with another kid, Barta loses her patience, and to settle him down, whacks him with a baseball bat. For real! She feels kinda bad, though, and has to go win Jeddy's love back and apologize for going Al Capone on him. Any movie with that kind of weirdness in it is a prime candidate for heckling, and I think its underlying sweet message still came through, with the pleasant resolution ("The Return of the Jeddy," we called it). Our last film before we closed up shop was "Uncle Ben." This is pure late-'70s BYU cheese about an alcoholic who has to sober up so he can care for his recently orphaned nephews and niece. The niece was played by the same creepy little girl who was in "The Mailbox." One alarming moment in the film came when the girl, now grown and about to graduate from BYU, walks through the Wilkinson Center ... and right past the very room we were performing in! We were afraid she was going to barge in on us, right from 1978 into 2001. (By the way, we cut out the mawkish scene where the mom dies and one of the little boys finds her dead in bed. Too uncomfortable.) All of these films seem to have been well-meaning, and often featured production values good for their era, budget, intentions, etc. It was usually the acting that made them suffer, and occasionally a tendency to over-simplify in the script. (Did I mention how Uncle Ben managed to quit drinking? He said one prayer. I don't doubt the Lord can work miracles like that, but it seemed to undermine the story of perseverance and faith that could have otherwise been very good.) I was a big fan of "On the Way Home" when I was on my mission and showing it to investigators all the time. It's from the era of church films in which little girls were always getting hit by cars. It also has some not-bad acting, some fine underscore music (Kurt Bestor, I believe) and an uplifting message. I think it was a big step forward in church films presenting their messages without beating you over the head with them, and without sacrificing all the quality. Haven't seen "Testaments" yet.... Eric D. Snider - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Realistic Newspaper Reporters Date: 11 Jul 2001 09:38:45 -0700 Replying to myself, of all people: >That was my one and only encounter with a flesh-and-blood reporter. My poor memory. I should have said that it was my one and only encounter with a newspaper reporter. I've encountered other reporters. How could I forget my interview with the much-warned-about Ed Decker? There were two other Salt Lake area reporters who have interviewed me in the past, but their names elude me. Are television reporters different than newspaper reporters? Of the three television reporters who have interviewed me, there was Ed Decker, who seemed more like Eric's description of newspaper reporters than the other two. One of the others sat calmly and asked me a ton of questions, and only put one answer on the air. I never saw what aired with the third, but his style seemed so much more subdued compared to Ed Decker. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Quoting from Church Handbook (comp) Date: 11 Jul 2001 23:39:42 -0500 >From skperry@mac.com Wed Jul 11 10:53:22 2001 on 7/10/01 3:14 PM, Travis Manning at manning_travis@hotmail.com wrote: > I say this because in these > manuals there is touchy info only for Bishops and Stake Presidents to know, > is my understanding . . . . How would the primary prez know about the quote given unless she reads it? How would the stake music chairman and sunday school teacher for the 16 & 17 yr-olds (that would be me) know whats expected of them in their callings if they hadn't read it? Steve Perry >From geb@cs.pitt.edu Wed Jul 11 11:10:51 2001 On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Travis Manning wrote: > > Don't we need to be careful about quoting from the _Church Handbook of > Instruction_? I just cringe when I remember that story last year about that > couple that published the entire _Church Handbook of Instruction_ on the > web, and the Church legally challenged this couple's ability to publish it > online, and won because it was copyrighted. > [snip] > > Any opinions on this? > Yes. I see no problem with it. Sounds like a fair use to me. Nothing from the Temple Ceremony or anything like it is in the GHI. The only policy I know is that people should only receive those parts of the handbook pertaining to their callings, and thus it is availble is smaller booklets. The quote pertained to those teaching children, not bishops or stake presidents. Gordon Banks - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kristi Bell Subject: [AML] Dating in LDS Adolescent Lit Date: 11 Jul 2001 12:54:39 -0600 I'm hoping that those of you more aware of what is being written for the adolescent Mormon audience than I am might be able to help me. I am writing a chapter on creative dating and invitations and want to devote a section to dating in Mormon lit. I have already looked at Weyland's novels. Does anyone know of some good examples of novels that mention unusual dating practices among Mormon youth? Thanks so much for any help you can give me. Kristi A. Bell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Kent HUFF, _Brigham Young's United Order_ (Review) Date: 10 Jul 2001 03:04:15 -0600 BRIGHAM YOUNG'S UNITED ORDER by Kent W. Huff Published by Bonneville Books (date not listed), distributed by Cedar Fort, Inc. Trade paperback, 313 pages $16.95 "The United Order Will Never Be the Same, Part Two" What _Joseph Smith's United Order_ was, _Brigham Young's United Order_ is even more so. Plenty of descriptive argument for those who only want to understand what Huff is saying. But copious amounts of evidence is interspersed for those who want to dig through it. And its scope is much more sweeping than the first book. The evidence is used in service of the premise that the United Order of the Utah period was an experimental system implemented by Brigham Young under circumstances of extreme survival. He was the leader of an exiled people literally carving a civilization out of nothing. For a while he was governor of the territory, but that rug was soon pulled out from under his feet. As the de facto leader of the region, but with no legal authority to back him up and nothing but hostility emanating from the titular legal authorities, Brigham Young was obliged to resort to extraordinary measures to govern his people. Their lives and their society were at stake. It was literally a matter of life an death that he succeed. Although Huff focuses on the United Order, his hypothesis actually accounts for all sorts of thorny legacies in LDS history, which is the beauty of it. From the Adam-God theory to blood atonement to polygamy, Huff demonstrates that the unique and dire circumstances of nineteenth century Utah required drastic measures. Lacking the normal tools of civilization-building, Brigham Young employed the only source of authority he had--ecclesiastical--to forge a society with proper law enforcement and economics. Living in the midst of a desert and impoverishment, and with the army of the United States knocking at their gate, embodying the desires of that country to exterminate the Saints, Brigham Young's goal was the messy business of survival at any cost, and let future generations sort out the details. These two books had a profound effect on me as I read them. I felt as if a number of significant puzzle pieces fell into place in my understanding of LDS history. I had one of those "Ah ha!" experiences where troubling dilemmas that wouldn't go away were finally resolved into a picture that made sense. Huff's hypothesis, in my opinion, resolves many difficulties from our history that have plagued us for over a century, and still plague us as our enemies wield them as weapons against us. And all for the price of giving up a mystical economic system that is more the stuff of wish-fulfillment than reality. It was a price I gladly paid, even at the expense of retracting enthusiastically argued public stands I'd taken, even at the expense of a cool LDS science fiction book I would have written. In his zeal to convince, Huff first wrote _Brigham Young's United Order_ as a monstrous tome stuffed with everything he could think of to include. After some wise editing advice, he split out the cream of the book and put the rest into a third volume, which was never widely published or distributed. I've read this third volume and, although it contains some relevant information, especially about the issues beyond the United Order, it definitely was the secondary material, and you're not missing a great deal by reading only the first two volumes. The third volume is almost exclusively page after page of speeches from Brigham Young and other church leaders of the time. I don't know if _Joseph Smith's United Order_ and _Brigham Young's United Order_ will have the same effect on you that they did on me. I don't know if Kent Huff's premise about the United Order will convince you. But I think I can state with assurety that, from now on, any treatise on the United Order that doesn't address the evidence Huff presented in these two books is an incomplete treatise. Huff has added a remarkable dimension to our understanding of the United Order that cannot be ignored. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 11 Jul 2001 17:25:34 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: > > I wonder if that isn't selling their statements a little short. > The way they frame many of their General Conference statements on > the arts suggests to me that they feel they are talking about > something objective and not just a matter of their own personal > preference. May I also suggest that, because they are "General" authorities, their remarks are meant to reach the largest cross-section of people. It's like writing in outline form -- a lot of mitigating details are left out. Consider recent talks about working women for instance. The larger principle of stay-at home mothers is presented as the ideal while allowing for individual variances based on personal circumstances. So while a GA may suggest that we avoid offensive movies, it is up to us in good conscience to determine that for ourselves. We've heard enough on this list to know that what some people find offensive others love. For instance, I like Stephen King, Barbara Hume despises him. To me, he's not offensive. To her, he is. But I further suggest that we are both in accordance with the suggestion to avoid offensive material as we understand that to be. > Perhaps the difference between words is greater than the > difference between musical keys. Perhaps the choice between > words that aren't vulgar and those that are is more akin to the > choice between performing a concerto at a normal volume and > having it amplified to a volume that is literally deafening. Again, though, what is vulgar can be individually discerned, based on all kinds of things, like one's upbringing, the part of the country, one comes from or the part of the world, for that matter. FWIW, "pissed" in England means drunk, while it has a much more vulgar connotation in America. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 10 Jul 2001 20:45:44 -0600 D. Michael Martindale wrote: >I don't know why you can't do both. Are you saying you are only >passionate about overtly LDS things? There is nothing universal to >humans in your life that you are passionate about? Why can't you write >about passions that are universal--not strictly LDS--and sell millions, >then write about passions that are strictly LDS, and sell hundreds? You >know, like Card does. I think you and Darvell are setting up a false dichotomy here. Why can't Darvell write for a Mormon-only audience if that's the audience and subject matter that fulfills his desires to write? Why can't he choose to write explicitly Mormon stories that address "insider" issues using insider situations, settings, and vocabulary? What's wrong with his choosing to write for an audience of hundreds rather than millions if that's the audience he wants to reach? It sounds like you're saying that the only true audience is the largest possible and most general one, and anyone who writes to a niche market is somehow less than a complete or worthy writer. This surprises me a bit, because your prior comments have emphasized the right of the Mormon artist to write whatever and however he wants. I don't accept Darvell's apparent suggestion that writing specifically to a Mormon audience is somehow nobler than writing to a broader national audience, but I also don't find anything wrong with his or any other artist's choice to write to a specific audience, either. > > It's part of being true to yourself. There are mainstream LDS writers out > > there who don't put any LDS material in their writing. Doesn't that kind of > > feel like they sold "us" out? > >Ouch! Back to dictating what other authors should write about. I'm not sure he's dictating anything; I think he's expressing an opinion, just like the rest of us do. We all need to be a little less sensitive about what other people believe. I happen to disagree that a Mormon who writes for a general audience has somehow sold out his home culture. A writer should tell the stories that absorb his/her interests and meet their goals as storytellers. If that means writing explicitly Mormon stories, good. If it means writing stories explicitly devoid of Mormon content, that's equally good. I've written both kinds and sold both kinds, and I feel that I met the literary and marketing goals I set for myself in each case. You need to tell the stories you need to tell. If we believe that Mormonness is more than a set of superficial behavioral characteristics, we also have to believe that stories expressed from the mind of a Mormon will tend to be informed by that mindset, and will be exactly as Mormon as they "should" be. I don't think you have to deal exclusively--or even at all--with overt Mormon issues to be true to your own Mormonness. You just have to tell stories that are true to your own vision. Darvell Hunt wrote: > > So, as I see it, this is the bottom line: Writing for the LDS market > > greatly limits your audience and circulation, but may provide more > > satisfaction. It might. But I still don't see this as an either/or proposition. I think far too many Mormons have backed away from the national fence far too easily, and we should be ashamed of ourselves. Why have we let a little rejection so easily deter us from telling our stories to a larger audience? The national market is not closed to Mormon thought. The vast success of artists like Orson Scott Card, Richard Dutcher, Dave Wolverton, Brady Udall, Neil Labute, Tracy Hickman, Anne Perry, and others seems like proof that the Mormon mindset is not the problem, it's the stories we choose to tell when we talk about ourselves. Card and Wolverton have written dozens of novels that are packed with Mormon conceptual and theological constructs, but that deliver them in packages and using words intended for a general audience. Does that make those concepts less Mormon? I don't think so. Those concepts are delivered in the way that will reach the audience those writers have chosen to reach. Labute has annoyed a great many Mormons with his extreme presentations of behavior by both Mormons and goyim, yet it's hard to interpret his works as glorifying those extreme behaviors. Is this not a form of illustrative tale? Is it not a tool of every Sunday School (or Relief Society or Primary or priesthood) teacher? And yet we decry his Mormonness because it isn't packaged neatly, and often portrays our behavior as just as reprehensible and anyone else's. Anne Perry has tended to tell stories that contain few or no references to either Mormon culture or thought, because those are not the stories she is interested in telling (though her explication of core Mormon doctrine in her novel _Tathea_ is about as direct as you can get). She's not trying to tell the stories of her people. Richard Dutcher has told two spectacular stories about Mormons, and yet I still hear criticism about whether he's a "real" Mormon or not because he dared to show elements of his culture to the rest of the world. In my opinion he may be the most important Mormon storyteller working today, yet he has to field criticism because he shows too much of his Mormonness. Yet all of these people have succeeded and continue to succeed at a national and international level. They tell stories that are informed to a greater or lesser degree by their Mormonness and make a good deal of money doing so, while reaching increasingly large audiences. The national market is not closed to Mormon thought, and I don't think it's closed to explicitly Mormon stories, either. I think there's a healthy and well deserved skepticism about our efforts to proselytize through fiction, but that hasn't closed the door completely. For Mormons to tell explicitly Mormon stories in the national market we going to have to be better than everyone else. "Just as good as" isn't good enough. We have to tell stories that are so good that the editor must publish them on the basis of their literary excellence, regardless of subject matter. Is that unfair? Perhaps. But it's the way the national market works. If I want to break into a national sf magazine, I have to unseat a popular selling pro. My story can't be as good as that popular author, because his name has already become a brand name, a promise of minimum quality that tells both editors and readers that the story will be worth reading. If I want to unseat that brand name author, I have to write a story so good that people will read it and say "Wow! Who is that guy?" I have to write a story that beats ninety-nine percent of what's being published in my market segment. But Mormons have been largely unwilling to either work that hard or be that persistent. We've had the door slammed on our noses so we go off to our safe places and whimper about how cruel the world is. Why? Didn't our missions teach us anything about slammed doors? Move on to the next one and try again. Keep working. Improve your craft. Write a story so good that someone will be forced to overcome their prejudice and publish it. We have to better than the competition because that's the way the game is played on the national level. It's nothing specifically personal against us, it's just the way the numbers play out. Ethnic stories in untried markets are bad risks. Unless you write _Roots_ or _I Am Asher Lev_ and prove both the quality of your work and the market for it. What are we afraid of? Until Mormons are willing to be seen both as Mormons *and* as people, we will remain an oddity to the rest of the world, a fringe group best known for plural marriage, a holier-than-thou attitude, a chronic unwillingness to party, and a complete rejection of modern technology (oh wait, that's Quakers isn't it; same effect, right?). We need to tell stories of our own experience, be it our religious experience, our business experience, our daily experience, or our trips to the moon. If the story requires Mormon terms or constructs, use them. If they don't, then don't. If you want to write for a Mormon publisher, do so. If you want to write for a national one, then do that. But you have to learn the rules of the game you try to play in, and right now those rules are different between the national and LDS markets. Yes, the national market will not publish most of our morality tales. That means we have to write something a bit more complex, a bit more broad if we want that national exposure. But we *don't* have to deny ourselves or our culture; we just have to package it better. >Satisfaction is in the eye of the beholder. I would say there's nothing >satisfying about writing what I am passionate about if I have to add or >remove all sorts of elements that I feel are false or destructive to the >story. This can happen in the national market--but for heaven's sake, >you don't think it happens in the LDS market too? There is room for a great deal of expansion in the LDS market. If the LDS publishers won't budge, look for other publishers. I'm not satisfied with the breadth of Mormon fiction either in the national market or the LDS one. Both have their blinders. And the only way to overcome those blinders is to be spectacularly good--something Mormons seem to do less often than I might have hoped. I love to hear Mormon writers and readers complain. It means that we're approaching critical mass and will soon expand the boundaries of the boxes we've built for ourselves. I look at the work Eric Samuelsen and Richard Dutcher are doing and I smile because they're much closer to my ideal than anyone else. There is change, and there is acceptance. We should be impatient for more rapid expansion, but we also need to understand that such expansion must be built on excellence, not just dissatisfaction with the status quo. I have no doubt that Martindale and Bigelow and Duncan can have significant success both in the national and the LDS markets. I believe Proffit and Wight and Hume can reach both their literary and their financial (read "copies sold") goals in whatever markets they pursue. But the way they will do it is with excellent writing and storytelling, not reliance on "our" publishers to publish our stories just because they're ours. And they'll need a lot of persistence and immunity to rejection--both by editors, and by peers and members of their own communities. That's how the game is played. Everywhere. Who else is tough enough to play at the pro level? Who else is willing to elevate their game and pay the price? Because I think that's the only thing that's really stopping Mormons from reaching wide audiences both inside and outside of the Mormon community. We haven't been willing to work hard enough to this point. >Maybe that's why Mormons like tidy literature: wish fulfillment. >Certainly not reality. Not a fair characterization, IMO. I'm a Mormon, and I prefer a different kind of story. The right story will obliterate the publishers' preconceptions and expand the market. Mormons *are* asking for more. Now the writers need to deliver--and be tenacious and tough in seeking markets and proving them to publishers. It is a business, and it must be sold on the basis of profit/loss, as well as literary quality. > > It's kind of like bearing your testimony. It may be an appropriate thing to > > do in sacrament meeting "among friends," but you certainly wouldn't do it > > in a national medium, like on TV. It's just not the right place to express > > your innermost, honest feelings. > >It's not???? Why not? Just because you don't start with "I'd like to >bear my testimony..." and include lines out of "The Pamphlet of LDS >Testimony Catch Phrases" doesn't mean you can't bear your testimony. I think this is the most dangerous limitation of Mormon storytelling. We're afraid to open our innermost thoughts to the world and have them rejected, so we build hedges around our stories or we retreat to our niche publishers. The failure is in us as writers as much as it is in the publishers. Victor Hugo wrote a stunning testimony of faith and human goodness in _Les Miserables._ John Irving wrote an equally stunning testimony of the reality and power of God and one good man in _A Prayer for Owen Meany._ Oddly, neither one of them focused on whether the POV character's religion was true, they focused on whether the POV character himself was true (thus raising POV's religion by association, not direct argument). Like Michael, I think there are a lot of ways to bear your testimony, and many of them don't require a particular vocabulary or approved lexicon. Whenever we tell a story, that story should contain an implicit "In the name of Jesus Christ" whether we ever explicitly say those words or not. Because every story we tell should be true, and all truth is testimony to Him. In my opinion. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Realistic Newspaper Reporters Date: 11 Jul 2001 16:35:21 William Morris: > >If you want to >make your reporter a little more sympathetic you can >foist the evil characteristics on to the editor >(Although I'm sure Eric's editors aren't in the least >bit evil). A major tension for the reporter is >balancing his/her feelings of simpatico (or hiding >dislike) with the subject/person(s) being reported on >with the demands of the story. Yes, although I take issue with the notion that my editors are not evil. All newspaper editors, by definition, are evil. I agree with everything else William said in regards to real-life reporters, with a couple adjustments.... > >Yes. Passionate about their beats is a must for any >literary representation of a reporter if he/she is a >minor character. The sincerely believe that by >reporting the news that they do (whether their beat is >education, business or city hall), they are doing a >public service. One caveat: Often because they are >so passionate about their beats they develop certain >prejudices about the topics they cover which means in >any interview they will focus in on the topics and >attitudes that will fit their prejudices (which they >often consider to be simply the beliefs and concerns >of their average readers). What this means in >depicting a scene of a conversation between a reporter >and a source is that often what the source thinks is >crucial to the story, the reporter will see as a minor >point and want to focus on other aspects of the story. > True that reporters (like all human beings) will develop biases. One thing I've been impressed with in working for newspapers, though, has been how hard they try to fight them. The public tends to think that newspapers consciously let their biases influence everything they do, but my experience has been the opposite: They know what their prejudices are and try not to let them show. Nothing makes a reporter bristle more than being accused of being biased. They really strive for fairness. I think that's something many people misunderstand about them, and something many people reading this probably won't even believe. But it's true. Also, in regards to sensationalizing: Real reporters hate that, too. We love it when a story actually IS sensational, of course, because it means people will read it and follow it. But reporters object to making a story more fantastic than it is, because it goes against their inherent desire to present the facts. > > > One more thing. Reporters are way underpaid. See > > what you can do > > about that, will you? > >No comment. > >~~William Morris (Actually reporters are underpaid-- >although I hear Eric makes the big bucks. Didn't you >just buy a nice house right next door to Stephen >Covey's large, white, night-lighted manse-trosity?) > Yes. I'm his pool boy. Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Writing by Mormons and Non (comp) Date: 11 Jul 2001 23:39:26 -0500 >From marianne_hales_harding@hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 10:58:10 2001 >BTW, did you know that there's a movie of Left Behind? When did that come >out? I missed it. It came out to video only and it says on the back of the box that when they make enough money from video sales they will release it into the theaters. I, too, have really enjoyed the Left Behind series (though I skipped the movie--I can't picture Kirk Camerson as Buck. Just doesn't fit my image of him.) You kind-of have to let some of that Born-Again exhuberance roll off your back (how many times can someone dramatically fall to the ground, overcome by the spirit, in the span of five pages?) but it does get you thinking about what the scriptures say about the end times and what it might be like in terms of the world we know. I've read all that are out now and I am anxiously awaiting the release of the next one (well, I'm not losing any sleep over it, but this is one of several series that I am following and it'll be nice to see what happens!). Marianne (Who *is* losing sleep over when the next Harry Potter book will be out :-) >From rexgoode@msn.com Wed Jul 11 11:17:14 2001 Barbara, Thanks for your comments about Christianity and fiction. Christian films tend to be Catholic. Christian characters in horror films also tend to be Catholic. Evangelicals may wear crosses, but you don't tend to think of them as wielding a crucifix to keep a vampire away. I once pondered how a vampire would fare in a predominantly Mormon community. I have not read the _Left Behind_ books, but I have seen the movie with Kirk Cameron. To tell the truth, I don't remember it much. When I try to remember it, I end up getting it confused with The Langoliers (Stephen King). :) There really hasn't been much in the way of Protestant Evangelical films that I can recall. I did enjoy _The Omega Code_ with Michael York, whom I always love, and Casper Van Dien. Michael Ironside was cast in his usual role, but well played. I mean, really, how stupid is a character who doesn't see Michael Ironside and think, "He must be the bad guy?" I've noticed that there is a part two in production, called, _Megiddo: Omega Code 2_. Michael York returns in his role as "The Beast" and is joined by Michael Biehn (_Terminator 2_ and "The X-Files"). Prior to that, the last one I remember was from my teen years. It was called, _A Time to Run_ and was more or less a Billy Graham tract, with Reverend Graham doing an altar call from the screen after the end credits. Seeing it made me curious to see what happens when you answer a Billy Graham altar call. They tried to get me to recite this canned prayer that asked Jesus into my heart. When I wouldn't do it, they took my name and phone number down and called me for the next few weeks. I don't include films such as _The Late Great Planet Earth_ because it was more of a documentary based on Hal LINDSAY's book. The very Catholic "The Omen" series was rather frightening, although I could not stay awake for any but the first. The Evangelical view of end times does not seem to bear much resemblance to the Mormon view, but then the Mormon view is not laid out so succinctly. For us, the main events are things like the coming of the Ancient of Days and the return to Jackson County. I think it's interesting how fiction about end times from the rest of Christianity seems to be done from a global point of view, but fiction about end times from the Mormon viewpoint tends to be centered around the Rocky Mountains. I remember an enjoyable short story by Thom Duncan that I read in a release of Zion's Fiction when I was still getting it. It was a small town in Utah. When, as a teen, I was heading in a direction that was taking me away from the Church, it was Duane S. CROWTHER's, "Prophecy: A Key to the Future," that fascinated me enough to want to change. It didn't scare me. I thought it would be fun to live through all of the stuff he gleaned from the writings of latter-day prophets and apostles. I just didn't think it would be as much fun living through it on the wrong side. I've since come to be highly skeptical of Crowther's timeline, and take with a large grain of salt, many of the opinions expressed by Mormon leaders about the events leading up to the return of the Savior. Even with my skepticism, I find the Mormon model more likely than the interpretations of the Bible we see. Rex Goode >From REWIGHT@telusplanet.net Wed Jul 11 12:20:34 2001 I've been reading the Left Behind series too and have been enjoying it. Is there any fiction out there about the Last Days from an LDS perspective. I've read Ephraims Seed and Jacobs Cauldron, but they just stopped. There's supposed to be two more at some point. And they started in the middle of things. Ephraims Seed doesn't explain why LDS people are on the run, or why the government is doing what it's doing. Left Behind, although doctrinally incorrect, explains things right from the beginning of things changing, and does it well. You can see how people get from one point to another. Anna Wight >From ronn.blankenship@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Wed Jul 11 13:13:38 2001 At 05:03 PM 7/10/01, Barbara R. Hume wrote: >He never says anything about Mormons, so I can only assume that we are all >translated! ha! The fundamentalist Christians are the heroes. More likely burned. -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 11 Jul 2001 11:12:43 -0600 Okay, some responses to Chris Grant's responses to my response. Can I = say, by the way, that I very much appreciate this dialogue, and especially = the spirit in which, in my opinion, it's been conducted. Me: >>General Authorities are not artists; they are not conversant >>with the various discourses taking place in the worlds of >>artists. >There are exceptions, aren't there? For example, Elder Packer is >an artist of sorts, and his essay/address that leads off the BYU >Press publication _Arts and Inspiration_ suggests that as long >ago as 1976 he was involved in discourses pertaining to morality >and the arts. I suspect that Elder Packer would be the first to disavow that label = 'artist.' He certainly paints, and his paintings are quite competent = landscapes. But "The Arts and the Spirit of the Lord". the talk to which = you refer, is filled with his own protestations that he's not an artist, = and that there's a fundamental level at which, by his own admission, he = doesn't know what he's talking about. That's a very interesting talk. In it, he describes various times when = he's experienced, in a variety of contexts, a variety of works of art, and = how, at times, the Spirit has withdrawn. I think that's a fascinating = subject; the times and places when we feel the Spirit strongly and when we = feel it withdraw. =20 If Elder Packer says "I heard this music, or I saw this play and I felt = the Spirit withdraw," then that's valuable and important evidence, and we = need to listen to it. But the problem is that I have felt the Spirit very = strongly while listening to precisely that music. (The example he uses is = Jesus Christ Superstar, as it happens). It is, of course, likely that = Elder Packer has a different relationship to the Spirit than I have. But = I have to regard my own testimony as valid. The same Spirit that tells me = God exists, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, that same Spirit manifested = itself to me during a production of the same play where it offended Elder = Packer (not the same production, of course.) And that says to me that = Elder Packer's testimony regarding art is valid for Elder Packer. But if = you say to me "you didn't really feel the Spirit then, under those = circumstances," well, then I don't know what to do, because then there's = no reason for me to stay in the Church. Don't misunderstand me, but this = is absolutely true; if I had a choice in the matter, I wouldn't be a = Mormon. I feel that alienated from the culture. I'm a Mormon because I = have a testimony. No other reason. >Certainly there are objects that are morally inert until acted >upon by a moral agent, and many words fall into this category. >Yet it seems to me that there are some words that we are >discouraged from using in just about every context, and it's not >clear that there is an exception made for artistic creations. >Certainly President Kimball's description of his experience at a >San Francisco theater suggests that he didn't think there was an >exception when it came to using sacred words in vulgar contexts: > ". . . the actors, unworthy to unloose the latchets >of the Lord's sandals, were blaspheming his sacred name >in their common, vulgar talk. They repeated words of a >playwright, words profaning the holy name of their >Creator. The people laughed and applauded, and as I >thought of the writer, the players, and the audience, >the feeling came to me that all were party to the >crime . . ." (_Improvement Era_, May 1953, p. 320.) Look at the context here. The play was clearly a comedy, and, by the = standards of 1953, a vulgar one. The Lord's name was being taken in vain = in the context of a trivial entertainment, probably non-reflectively, = probably without any consideration of the moral impact of that language. = The key word here is 'gratuitous.' Now, I'm very reluctant to declare the = use of language gratuitous. I'm very reluctant to peer that closely into = the heart of an artist. But it certainly does happen that artists don't = consider carefully every word they write and every possible reaction to = those words. Comedy is tricky in this context. Farce deliberately lives in an amoral = universe, (an artificial construct, to be sure), telling us truth with a = lower case t, reminding us that we are mammals, that left to our own = resources, we'll do what we can to satisfy our physical needs. That's not = the whole truth about humanity, of course, but it's a truth, and farce, at = it's best, explores that. And because it's true, it's funny. (Truth is = often funny; nothing funny isn't true). So, again, my reluctance to judge = comedy. But we're all capable of lapses. But the larger point is worth making again. Elder Kimball is describing = the use of the Lord's name. I'm reminded of the FHE we had, when my six = year old overheard her brother talking about God, in a lesson, as I = recall, about prayer. "Kai," she said, wide-eyed, "you're not supposed to = use that word. That's a bad word." But we can, and often must, use the = word "God." It's not a bad word at all, of course. It's just that in = some contexts, it's also blasphemously used. =20 >>I cannot think of a single instance--not one--where an artist >>created anything intending to do evil in the world. >This struck me at first as a very bold statement: Out of the >trillions of culpable acts committed by humans, none have been >performed by artists in the creative process? =20 I didn't say that. I said that I have never known an artist who created = anything intending to do evil in the world. Obviously artists are as = capable of sin as any mortals. But I have never once known an artist who = has said "I know, I'll write this play/novel/poem/song or create this = painting/film/sculpture in order to promote evil in the world." They say = "this is a fun little dance tune." They say "this may not be the best = show on television, but it's fun and people will find it amusing." They = say "by shocking the audience, we'll free from their bourgeois conventional= ity and allow they to experience the world as it really is, in all its = ugliness and violence." =20 >But then if one >pleads ignorance of others' motives, all this is is a statement >about your own creations, isn't it? =20 At the time I created them, sure. In retrospect, I shudder at a lot of = what I've done, both as an artist, and, of course, outside the creative = process. >More than one of the seven deadly sins played a role in the >creation of the few (and utterly insignificant) works of art/ >literature I produced in my younger days. Not consciously, while you were creating them. Betcha anything. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Kent HUFF, _Joseph Smith's United Order_ (Review) Date: 11 Jul 2001 11:23:09 -0600 At 02:07 AM 7/10/01 -0600, you wrote: >Huff's premise is that we have the United Order all wrong. It is not an >eternal principle. It was not established by revelation. Our concept of >the Order today is one of those folk doctrines we've accepted that, when >looked into in depth, does not bear up to scrutiny. Fascinating. I really hope he's right. I'm far too selfish to live under such a regime, and human nature being what it is, it would never work, IMHO. Now if someone would prove that the whole plural-wives thing was a big mistake. . . barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: [AML] AML Writing Group/Feedback Wanted Date: 11 Jul 2001 10:56:34 -0700 There was a time when I was involved in writing groups begun here on the list. That was a few years ago. I got a lot of useful feedback. I am at a place where I'm interested in more feedback. Because of some of the themes in my stories, much of the feedback I got before came with the disclaimer that the reviewer could not verify whether my story was accurate. They did not understand the issues I was writing about. I don't doubt they were being sincere. A mostly sheltered Mormon will be out of his element. He may even be uncomfortable reading what I write, or at least I hope so. I am not faulting those who could not give more in terms of feedback. Everyone did their best to come up with something I could use, and everyone succeeded to some degree. I am wondering if there are any brave souls out there who are willing to venture into my brain and my writing a little. I am willing to reciprocate. Your interests would need to include mild horror/fantasy and not be shy about violent content or sexual situations. I'm never graphic about sex and violence, but I'm not shy about those elements either. Finally, if there is some interest in writing groups again, and if it would be advantageous to use a bulletin board system on a website as opposed to email, I'm willing to host (in terms of space, bandwidth, and software) an AML-List writing groups area on one of my websites. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: [AML] Re: Steed Family (was: Fiction in Church Mags) Date: 11 Jul 2001 13:59:50 -0500 At 11:20 PM 7/9/01, Larry Jackson wrote: >Someone mentioned the Steeds in a gospel >doctrine class. The response was, "Who?" > And I'm still waiting for the answer, too . . . ;-) -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Provo Freedom Festival Parade Date: 11 Jul 2001 14:04:27 -0500 At 02:37 PM 7/10/01, William Morris wrote: >Of course John Paul III had his >representation as well so it wasn't all that unique. Especially interesting in light of the fact that John Paul II is still in office . . . ;-) -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 11 Jul 2001 14:11:34 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: > Before we conclude that Brigham thought reading fiction was a good > way to learn the truth about good and evil, perhaps we should take > a look at _J of D_ 9:173 and 15:224, as well.... And > it's hard for me to picture the man who told the Saints to keep > their private follies to themselves because he did "not want to > know anything about it" reading a lot of sexually explicit fiction > in order to enhance his grasp of the truth. > I'm assuming that embarrassment isn't the only reason why you > don't have sex in front of your children. Might some of these > other reasons apply to on-screen sex in literature, as well? This appears to be the old philosophy that if we shouldn't do it in real life, we shouldn't read/write about it in literature. Quite frankly, that philosophy would destroy literature. I'm sure Brigham Young didn't want to hear about the real follies of real people--but that says nothing about fiction. Since your quote from Brigham Young contradicts Amelia's quote from Brigham Young--unless we make the distinction of real vs. fictional--I have to assume Brigham Young also made that distinction in his mind. > [D. Michael again] > >Is it a fair statement to say that the basic reason for > >wanting sex kept "behind closed doors" is embarrassment? > > No, I don't think so. Doesn't Elder Holland address this in "Of > Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments"? Beats me. I don't recall what he says in that. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KGrant100@aol.com Subject: [AML] Re: Sex in Literature Date: 11 Jul 2001 16:44:27 EDT Chris Grant wrote: [Amelia again] >>The fact that [sex] happens outside of the bonds of >>marriage may make it sinful but it does not negate the >>fact that it is a loving act, one which may and >>probably does bring joy. That creates a whole new >>situation than that of the situation of depraved >>sexual sin. >Both President Kimball and President Hinckley have >made strongly worded statements identifying sexual sin >with lust and not love, even when that sin occurs >within the context of what the world would consider >normal, non-depraved relationships. In one of the early Narnia books by CS Lewis (the name escapes me) there is a tree with delicious, inviting and healing fruit. Digory's mother (Digory is the protagonist) is ill, and he wants to take some of the fruit to her. But he is told he must only take the fruit under the right conditions. So despite his great desire to help his mother, he doesn't take the fruit. (Later, Aslan gives him some, and his mother is healed.) But before he receives the fruit, he sees the woman who will become the witch in _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_. She *has* partaken of the fruit, but not under the right conditions. Digory notices that surprisingly, the fruit has not brough her joy--even though it was the same fruit. A male LDS friend told me, after committing fornication, that it was like anticipating a wonderful Christmas gift, only to open the present and find it empty. It appears that sex outside marriage and sex within marriage are different on a fundamental level. (Has anyone read the book by Wendy Shalit (sp) called _Return to Modesty_? Some of her research seems to support this point.) If we assume marital and pre-marital sex are the same or similar in our writing, our writing may lack authenticity, not to mention making a false case for immorality. Kathy Grant - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell Hunt" Subject: Re: [AML] Realistic Newspaper Reporters Date: 11 Jul 2001 16:24:17 -0500 "Stephen Goode" wrote: >Two weeks ago, I had the experience of meeting a small-town reporter, very >small town. >A man in his late thirties, nice beard, conservative clothes, and a belly >pack had stopped to use the restroom. Hey, that sounds like me! I'm a small-time reporter for a small-time paper, but I'm in my mid-thirties. I have a trimmed beard, wear jeans and a golf shirt, and occasionally sport a "belly pack," and I use restrooms, too. Writing for a local hometown paper is certainly interesting. Just today there was a letter to the editor in the Lehi Free Press about my satirical column last week making fun of the stock parade that starts the Lehi Roundup celebration. I guess you're not a real columnist until some outraged reader writes about you in a letter to the editor. Cool. I'm just tickled about it. ;) As a "reporter," I go to town meetings, get to know the mayor and town council, and write everyday common stories about my hometown (Saratoga Springs) that most people could find out if they had the time and the desire to attend town council meetings. I'm certainly more of a writer than a reporter, though. If a news story is plopped in my lap, I'll write about it, but I'm not at all like the annoying beat-down-the-door reporters that make movies so interesting. I'm more like Clark Kent than Lois Lane, that's for sure. LOL. The pay is poor but the satisfaction (for me anyway) is high -- especially now that I have finally gotten my own weekly column. Sure, I have a "real" full-time job as well. You don't become a part-time newswriter for a local paper for the money. ButI've really enjoyed writing news stories for the paper since January -- though I'm not at all sure that anybody is actually reading them but my editor and my family. ;) If you have any questions you'd like to ask me, feel free to email me. Also, if you'd like to check out my column "Westside Stories," I have posted past editions on my new writing website at: http://www.geocities.com/darvell_writing/ It's not a great web site, but it serves its purpose. >Rex Goode In any case, I'm no Eric Snider yet, but I'm working on it! Does Anybody know if Lehi have a Victoria's Secret store? ;) Darvell Hunt _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Realistic Newspaper Reporters Date: 11 Jul 2001 16:38:13 -0600 At 02:31 PM 7/10/01 -0700, you wrote: >I thought it was interesting that as I was thinking about my reporter >character, I should happen to meet a reporter and he would do a story about me. > >That was my one and only encounter with a flesh-and-blood reporter. Why didn't you pump him for information? People love to serve as subject-matter experts for novelists. >barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: Re: [AML] Steed Family Date: 11 Jul 2001 17:39:36 -0600 Quoting luannstaheli : > Gerald Lund often > comments in talks he > gives about writing > Melissa Proffitt > wrote: > > > > > As a matter of > interest, I'd like > everyone who's > actually heard > someone cite > > the Steed family > (or any of the other > characters from The > Work and the Glory > > series) as real > historical figures > to respond here. Haven't heard this myself, but I did hear a woman (one I respect a lot, actually) list off _TW&TG_ in Relief Society as a blessing that we have been given in the latter days to help us understand church history and the gospel. I imagine that most readers understand that the Steeds are fictional, but I wonder how many accept the books as scripture anyway. Or as something pretty close. --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: Quoting from Church Handbook Date: 12 Jul 2001 00:40:39 -0500 Travis Manning: Don't we need to be careful about quoting from the _Church Handbook of Instruction_? I just cringe when I remember that story last year about that couple that published the entire _Church Handbook of Instruction_ on the web, and the Church legally challenged this couple's ability to publish it online, and won because it was copyrighted. ... *how much* are we allowed to quote ... _______________ I'd have to quote from the Handbook to answer your question! :-> Your concern is valid. Please let me explain. The new Church Handbook of Instructions combines 30 handbooks of the Church into one. And while there is one Handbook, it is published as Book 1 and Book 2. Book 1 is intended for stake presidencies and bishoprics, and more closely resembles the old General Handbook of Instructions. This is the book that the Tanner's (and others) posted online, then removed, but left links to other sites which still had the book online. The stake president or bishop may authorize portions of Book 1 to be copied for high councilors and others as needed. (High councilors no longer receive the entire Handbook.) Book 2 is for priesthood and auxiliary leaders. It includes information that was in the old Melchizedek and Aaronic Priesthood handbooks, and in the old Relief Society, Young Women, Primary, and Sunday School handbooks. It contains other things, some new, including an excellent section on Gospel Teaching and Leadership. All of Book 2 is given to priesthood quorum and group leaders, and auxiliary presidents. In addition, each section of Book 2 is published separately and given to the leaders of that organization. These separately published sections are page numbered the same as the original book. For example, the Primary quote came from page 239, which is the same in the complete Book 2 as it is in the Primary section (pp. 229-240) which is published as a separate booklet and given to Primary presidencies and leaders. As another example, every teacher in the Church should have received the section on Gospel Teaching and Leadership, pp. 299-319 in Book 2, and also published separately. As far as I know, Book 2 was never available online. All of the Handbook is copyrighted and some of Book 1 is very sensitive. I would not quote those portions, especially where a referral to the bishop or stake president would be more appropriate. That said, however, if the answer to a question is in Book 1, almost any bishop will share it with a member who has a sincere question and a testimony to go with it. So, did you notice the Handbook quote in my answer? Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kellene Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 12 Jul 2001 00:23:06 -0600 D. Michael Martindale wrote: > > I noticed that all the examples given of interesting "good" characters > were actually well-rounded characters, not technically "good." They had > good characteristics about them, but they also had weaknesses and > foibles, and it was those in fact that made them interesting. A strictly > "good" character is indeed boring. > I have to be obnoxious. . . . Is Christ boring? He is probably the only perfectly good person available to write about. The rest, both fictional and nonfictional, are as D. Michael notes and as the scriptures teach, an interesting, complex combination of good and bad, natural man and saint. Kellene Adams - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 12 Jul 2001 00:49:57 -0600 on 7/11/01 10:39 PM, Jonathan Langford at jlang2@pressenter.com wrote: > There's that guy Christianson (I think), he does some wonderful fantasy > characters. I like his paintings. Not religious, just fun. > > Anna Wight He's one of 6 artists working right now on the murals for the Nauvoo temple. Steve Perry [MOD: James C (Jim) Christensen.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 12 Jul 2001 02:00:23 -0600 Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > It sounds like you're saying that the only true audience is the > largest possible and most general one, and anyone who writes to a > niche market is somehow less than a complete or worthy writer. This > surprises me a bit, because your prior comments have emphasized the > right of the Mormon artist to write whatever and however he wants. Well, then let me clear that up right now! I was trying to counteract the dichotomy that Darvell seemed to be presenting: write what you feel passionate about or sell millions. I tried to point out--like you said--that this is indeed a false dichotomy. A writer can choose to attempt both if he wants to. If he doesn't want to, fine with me. I've been comparing in my mind what Darvell said to what Richard Dutcher said about LDS filmmakers: they shouldn't waste their time making the typical Hollywood films. Anyone can do that. They ought to make films only LDS filmmakers can make. When it came out of Richard's mouth, I liked it, but when it came out of Darvell's mouth, I didn't. So I had to figure out the cause of this apparent contradiction. I think the contradiction lies in the fact that Richard was talking about an LDS filmmaker going the Hollywood route and playing _their_ game to strike it big--writing the usual stuff that reflects nothing about their LDS background. I don't think he was talking about the mere act of making a film that a general audience could appreciate. After all, his two films so far have been as available to the general audience as to the LDS audience, and the general audience stood up and took notice. The lengthy sacrament scene in _Brigham City_ that set up the finale is evidence that Richard had a general audience as well as an LDS audience in mind: no Mormon needed the information in that scene. Whereas Darvell seemed to be saying we shouldn't write to the general market at all, but restrict ourselves to speaking to ourselves. Yet the church has a three-fold mission. Now literature for the dead is probably not very useful, so we can skip that one. But the other two are very relevant: strengthen the members and preach the Gospel to the world. Our literature can and ought to do both. We ought to write to ourselves, but we also need to write to the world. Individual authors should choose for themselves which direction they want to go: LDS, world, or both. But as a group, I would hope we do all of it. This seems to come up over and over again--people trying to restrict what authors write. Write only to ourselves. Write only to the world. Write only fluffy happy endings. Write only about deep, dark, troubling human issues. Write only about good Mormons. Write only about Mormons struggling with their righteousness. Write about sex. Don't write about sex. Where does this urge to limit others come from? We as a group need to write ALL of it. But each individual is free to choose which subset he will focus on--and is not free to tell someone else what to focus on. If we leave it up to each individual author what to write about, the whole gamut will be covered by the law of averages. I really don't understand what's so hard about this concept. > I don't accept Darvell's apparent suggestion that writing > specifically to a Mormon audience is somehow nobler than writing to a > broader national audience, but I also don't find anything wrong with > his or any other artist's choice to write to a specific audience, > either. Agreed here. > > > It's part of being true to yourself. There are mainstream LDS writers out > > > there who don't put any LDS material in their writing. Doesn't that kind of > > > feel like they sold "us" out? > > > >Ouch! Back to dictating what other authors should write about. > > I'm not sure he's dictating anything; I think he's expressing an > opinion, just like the rest of us do. We all need to be a little less > sensitive about what other people believe. I admit this is an area where I am sensitive, and that's not likely to change. My dander really gets up when people start invoking morality and righteousness to condemn my literary choices as an author. There is no official church doctrine about literary choices a writer makes. Therefore any invocation of morality and righteousness to condemn a literary choice is, shall we say, overstepping propriety. I doubt there are two of us on this list who have identical views on how to handle moral issues about literature. If 200 of us drew a line where we think writers shouldn't cross, we'd end up with 200 lines. So how in the world can any of us think there's an objective, absolute line that should apply to all, let alone think our line is it? > Although by this rant I think your and my line would be pretty close. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Writing by Mormons and Non Date: 12 Jul 2001 06:32:33 -0500 At 11:39 PM 7/11/01, Rex Goode wrote: > >From rexgoode@msn.com Wed Jul 11 11:17:14 2001 > >Barbara, > >Thanks for your comments about Christianity and fiction. > >Christian films tend to be Catholic. Christian characters in horror films >also tend to be Catholic. Evangelicals may wear crosses, but you don't tend >to think of them as wielding a crucifix to keep a vampire away. I once >pondered how a vampire would fare in a predominantly Mormon community. The hero/ine would stop him by raising his/her right hand and showing a CTR ring . . . -- Ronn! :) who confesses to owning a CTR ring that glows in the dark . . . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 12 Jul 2001 08:32:21 -0400 I really think that this is just splitting hairs over what 'good' is. Good does not equal perfect. Personally, I don't equate goodness with being boring. Though in our current literature trends that may be true. Life has a way of throwing good people enough trials and tribulations to make their lives interesting. And good people are not perfect people. They make mistakes, sin, and so forth, that also make their lives interesting. They are also often involved in many interesting projects and so forth........Good people come in a lot of different shapes and sizes. Even as I say all that, I find it very difficult to quantify 'good'. Almost every person I know is mostly good. In and out of the church. I even know some guys who are gay that are basically good people. I know many Mormons would look at them and say "They are gay. They are not good." Well, the way they are living in that context is not something I believe is conducive to their eternal joy and happiness, but they are still, in many ways, very good people. In some ways they are much more Christ like than I am. They are loving, kind, helpful, understanding, warm, caring people. My adult LDS novel (that I've mentioned before) is still haunting the corners of my mind. It is basically about two good people who have been building a life for 50 or so years together, with all the ups and downs life generally throws people. I haven't found it a bit boring, discovering tiny piece by tiny piece, who they are and how they've lived their lives. It's still not the direction I would like my writing to go in the five minutes a week I have these days to write........ So, I don't know what your "technically 'good'" involves. Maybe you could explain in a little more detail. Tracie Laulusa ----- Original Message ----- > I noticed that all the examples given of interesting "good" characters > were actually well-rounded characters, not technically "good." They had > good characteristics about them, but they also had weaknesses and > foibles, and it was those in fact that made them interesting. A strictly > "good" character is indeed boring. > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 12 Jul 2001 07:15:52 -0600 D. Michael Martindale writes: >I noticed that all the examples given of interesting "good" >characters were actually well-rounded characters, not >technically "good." They had good characteristics about them, >but they also had weaknesses and foibles, and it was those >in fact that made them interesting. A strictly "good" >character is indeed boring. I'd appreciate it if you'd be more specific in describing the sins of the characters I listed. I deliberately chose the saintliest characters I could think of. If these characters are not good, I'd like to know who these truly good characters are that everyone seems to find so boring. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 12 Jul 2001 13:39:06 -0000 I saw a program on Television about her the other day. She painted the mural(s) for the Manti temple. They interviewed her assistant, and he said that sometimes she would stop in the middle of a painting and they would drop to their knee's and pray for inspiration. What a wonderful example for any artist to follow. She also paid for family tuition at BYU with paintings, so they have a lot of her work around campus. -Tami Miller [My favorite artist is Greg Olsen (O Jerusalem)] > > Favorite: Everything painted by Minerva Teichert. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 12 Jul 2001 08:31:24 -0600 What I tell my kids about Santa Claus, when they are old enough to hear it is the truth. He is a real person, he happens to be dead now, but that doesn't make him any less real and his spirit of giving lives on in most the people in the world today. I have always told them that I am Santa's helper and even an elf. (I happen to be rather short so this is easy for them to believe.) Now I am lying to my kids. No, I believe every word of it. Now, of course, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are totally make believe and, when they are old enough, I do tell my kids that they are not real. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 12 Jul 2001 08:58:23 -0600 I want Eric's reaction to "Testaments." We finally saw it. Marilyn Brown > > Haven't seen "Testaments" yet.... > > Eric D. Snider - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 12 Jul 2001 09:06:49 -0600 While I recall seeing the Garrens MST3K version of Johnny Lingo--and = laughing my head off--I still maintain that Tom Trails is the worst of the = lot. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure, Tom Trails was this = Native American kid, LDS, around whom this weekly soap opera whirled. The = great thing about it is that Tom did everything wrong; he slept with his = girlfriend--Lillie--in, I'm not kidding, a hayloft. He shoplifted, he ran = away from home. All with the identical expressionless face and monotone = voice. He was in ecstasy, he was in anguish, he was terrified, it didn't = matter; he was deadpan all the way. Read lines like "Oh Lillie, Lillie, = what have we done?" with an absolutely flat intonation and you get the = picture. Of course, none of it worked out for him and he always felt = terrible and repented, but I remember thinking that that kid on the rez = was having a way more exciting life than I was having. What made it even = best of all was that it was a filmstrip, at least in the version I got to = watch in Indiana. =20 And there was a terrible song that opened each episode: "Life is hard, Tom = Trails." Great stuff. If I'm not totally mistaken, didn't George P. Lee = play Tom Trails? =20 Eric Snider's post mentioned Barta Heiner, the world's greatest actress = (for once, I'm being sincere), in Lillies Grow Wild. Barta was in another = dreadful Church film, called something like Blind Love. She plays this = woman who's homely, happily married to a blind guy. What's great about = this marriage, you see, is that he's blind and can't see how hideous she = is. Then the doctors tell her they have this new Miracle Cure and he'll = be able to see, and this bums her out because, sure, her husband will now = be able to see, but he'll see her, dog that she is, and fall right smack = out of love with her. And the doctor takes off the bandage, and so the = first thing he sees is this babalicious nurse, and then he looks away from = her and sees Barta and of course says she's beautiful and it all works out = happily. =20 I suppose in a way this film could be said to have a nice message about = how true love overlooks an ugly face--not that Barta's face is anything = like ugly; she's an attractive woman. But it's like Johnny Lingo; good = intentions paving the way to aesthetic hell. I actually quite like The Windows of Heaven I think it's called, about = Lorenzo Snow and tithing. It's pretty old-fashioned looking nowadays, but = quite well made. And wasn't there a Church film many years ago about = Saints in the Mexican colonies being killed by Pancho Villa? I vaguely = remember it, and remember thinking it was quite good. I'm also grateful = to whoever remembered Mr. Krueger's Christmas. My grandmother was in = that, playing Jimmy Stewart's housekeeper. She got to have lunch with Mr. = Stewart on the set, and she never forgot it, and especially what a total = gentleman he was. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Re: (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art (comp) Date: 12 Jul 2001 09:12:25 -0600 > > >From skperry@mac.com Tue Jul 10 20:37:29 2001 > > on 7/10/01 6:55 PM, Jonathan Langford at jlang2@pressenter.com wrote: > > > Favorite: Everything painted by Minerva Teichert. BY sent her to France to > > study with the masters. > > There were several painters sent by Brigham to study in France, but Minerva > Teichert was not one of them (she was still alive in 1970). But you forgot to add that, in 1970, she was 125 years old. > She did study > art in Chicago and New York, however. I admit to conflating her story into the Brigham Younn era. I should know better. I saw a film on her life, written by Tim Slover, in the basement theatre of the Church Museum of Art in SLC. I got a great "impression" (pun intended) from the film, however, of a rather unorthodox but faithful Mormon woman who wanted to use her gift primarily to bless her fellow Saints. What I like about her art, which seems to be missing with most of the artwork of today (with the possible exclusion of Liz Swindle) is that her paintings had emotion. Her people, while not realistic in the slightest, weren't posed, with a Book of Mormon under their arm, looking off into eternity. Instead, they were vibrant almost electric people that looked like they would jump off the canvas. The paintings on the cover of the Ensign are not art. They are illustrations. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: [AML] _Salon_ Article on Christian Romance Date: 12 Jul 2001 09:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Salon has just posted a story on the Christian romance novel market. Oddly enough, it's doesn't have much of that sneering quality that Salon articles sometimes exhibit. I'm sure that the romance writers and readers on the list are probably already familiar with the issues and perhaps even the names that come up, but it's still interesting to see a topic like this get play in a liberal, general interest online mag like Salon. Forgive me if the link doesn't work. Copy and paste? http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2001/07/12/christian_romance/index.html I'd be interested in hearing what folks think of the tone of article, and if the characterizations and examples used are the best/most interesting ones out there. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: [AML] _Salon_ Article on Christian Romance Date: 12 Jul 2001 09:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Salon has just posted a story on the Christian romance novel market. Oddly enough, it's doesn't have much of that sneering quality that Salon articles sometimes exhibit. I'm sure that the romance writers and readers on the list are probably already familiar with the issues and perhaps even the names that come up, but it's still interesting to see a topic like this get play in a liberal, general interest online mag like Salon. Forgive me if the link doesn't work. Copy and paste? http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2001/07/12/christian_romance/index.html I'd be interested in hearing what folks think of the tone of article, and if the characterizations and examples used are the best/most interesting ones out there. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Higbeejm@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 12 Jul 2001 13:15:58 EDT dmichael@wwno.com writes: > I noticed that all the examples given of interesting "good" characters > were actually well-rounded characters, not technically "good." They had > good characteristics about them, but they also had weaknesses and > foibles, and it was those in fact that made them interesting. A strictly > "good" character is indeed boring. Sure. But a strictly _anything_ character is boring. A strictly "bad" character is boring. One dimensional is boring. And "good" certainly does not always equal "one dimensional." Like most things, it probably comes down to a matter of definition. By the definition I use, characters like Jane Eyre and Stephen Kamalo and Atticus Finch are good people because, despite their weaknesses and foibles (and sometimes because of them), they carefully and thoughtfully make their choices in life based on their understanding of the principles of goodness--love God, love others, love yourself. Even Christ's definition of perfection has more to do with being well-rounded--being complete, fully dimensional--than with being "strictly" anything. And speaking of Christ...I'm right in the middle of a renewed study of the New Testament and the life of Jesus. Talk about an interesting character... Janelle Higbee - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Kent HUFF, _Brigham Young's United Order_ (Review) Date: 12 Jul 2001 09:08:33 -0700 Just a quick note to thank you for these reviews. I have a copy of the Joseph Smith volume, but not this one. Tell the truth, I've never read the JS volume through. As you noted in the previous review, it was a bit dense at some points. I'm glad to know this volume is available in paperback. Thanks for the good info. > BRIGHAM YOUNG'S UNITED ORDER > by Kent W. Huff > Published by Bonneville Books (date not listed), distributed by Cedar > Fort, Inc. > Trade paperback, 313 pages > $16.95 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: [AML] Mormons and the Gospel (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 12 Jul 2001 22:45:57 -0000 >From: "Christopher Bigelow" >Reply-To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com >To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com, ap8w@virginia.edu >Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature >Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 11:07:49 -0700 > >Responding to Amelia Parkin: >Amelia Parkin said: ><<let's say, Baptists do not? My husband grew up in the south, Alabama to be precise. He came into contact with all of the religions on the `Bible Belt' and is from a good Catholic family. When I asked him what we have that they don't have he said "Why, The Priesthood, ofcourse." Ofcourse! -Tami Miller - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] Writing by Mormons and Non Date: 12 Jul 2001 16:03:29 -0700 There was a limited release of the Left Behind movie early this year. It played at one of the theatres here in Irvine, California. It was like God's Army in that respect (played at a limited number of theatres). But I think God's Army had a better turn out. Jerry Tyner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Kenny Kemp Signs Deal: Alta Films & Press News Release Date: 12 Jul 2001 20:44:08 EDT Congratulations on this super achievement, and may you never have writer's block. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 12 Jul 2001 19:01:23 -0600 >Eric Snider's post mentioned Barta Heiner, the world's greatest >actress (for once, I'm being sincere), in Lillies Grow Wild. Barta >was in another dreadful Church film, called something like Blind >Love. She plays this woman who's homely, happily married to a blind >guy. What's great about this marriage, you see, is that he's blind >and can't see how hideous she is. Then the doctors tell her they >have this new Miracle Cure and he'll be able to see, and this bums >her out because, sure, her husband will now be able to see, but >he'll see her, dog that she is, and fall right smack out of love >with her. And the doctor takes off the bandage, and so the first >thing he sees is this babalicious nurse, and then he looks away from >her and sees Barta and of course says she's beautiful and it all >works out happily. The only thing that stopped us heckling "Blind Love" was that the Garrens ended before we got around to it. My heckling partner was quite insistent we do it, especially after seeing Barta in "Lilies Grow Wild." Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 05 Jul 2001 23:42:51 -0600 ---Original Message From: D. Michael Martindale > > Um. Droves? I think you overstate. > > Here's a quote from opera singer Michael Ballard at the 1995 > Mormon Arts Festival: > > I met with the Bishop and the Stake President and had > a book, a very substantial book of all the artists who were > Mormons living in the Manhattan Ward. It was page after > page after page after page, but most of them either had > an 'X' or an 'X' in parenthesis around them. I said, > "What does this 'X' mean?" "It means they've been > excommunicated." "What does the parenthesis around the > 'X' mean? "It means if they come through the revolving > door they'll be excommunicated." > > Ballard attributes this to the highly corruptive nature of the business. > But I say, the low opinion that church members and occasionally even > General Authorities seem to have of art greases the wheels of that > corruption. If artists are not appreciated by their own people, they'll > go where they're appreciated. If we appreciated them more, perhaps fewer > would be so enticed by the corrupt artistic culture out there. Well, as your example points out, we have real trouble discerning causality. I think that is a central problem throughout our discussion. People leave the church because... Michael Ballard says that the artistic community in New York is corrupting people so they leave. You guess that the lack of support artists receive in the Church causes people to leave. Frankly, I have concerns about the accuracy of the anecdote. There are enough Mormon artists living in the Manhattan Ward to create a very substantial book just by listing them all? > > And frankly, I've never heard of > > an intellectual/artist/writer/whatever who left the Church because of > > Church policy about art (or because there wasn't enough swear words in a > > play). They tend to leave when they find something that few members > > know about or because they can't accept some doctrine that has been > > taught--i.e. for ideological reasons not presentation reasons. > > And do you think this happens out of the blue? I've learned all sorts of > things about the church, it's doctrine, it's history, it's leaders, that > give one pause, but I'm still here. Something has to have prepared an > individual to let things like that knock him out of the church. I'd say > the preparatory things are much more significant than the final straw > that makes them act. Well, we're not going to resolve this one based on anything other than personal belief. Once we start questioning the stated reasons for leaving the Church, we are left with nothing but our own opinions. My point is that I've known of people (in my current Ward) who say they left the Church because they were offended by an action (a recommendation by the Bishop, boorish behavior by someone who wasn't punished etc.) by someone but I've never, ever heard anyone say they left the Church because of our art or how we treat our artists. > > At any rate, I think it may be a legitimate shift to take > > the burden from those who are struggling with the gospel, have less > > understanding, and are easily offended to those who, as you say, think. > > And who says that, just because people think, they can't also struggle > with the Gospel, have less understanding in critical areas, and become > offended? This truly sounds like anti-intellectualism to me. Well, anti-intellectualism is an interesting topic. I'm afraid I leave myself open to the accusation because I'm not a big fan of a lot of things coming from academic quarters. I don't think I've earned the appellation here, though. I don't think it is anti-intellectual to say that intellectuals can handle the burden of no official support better than those who are easily offended can handle offensive materials in Church publications. > > Well, like I said, I don't think we're losing people because of the > > simplifications. We lose some of our intellectuals, but not because of > > how the Church has decided to present its message. > > Like I said, I don't think it's a simplistic process, that one day an > intellectual learns something and leaves the church. This intellectual > has long ago become disillusioned with the cavalier approach the church > seems to have at times toward truth and facts. The way the church > presents its message can be a big part of that. You may be right. I don't know. Who can say all the elements that *might* lead to someone leaving the Church. All I can deal with are stated reasons--which are obviously not going to be accurate either. Frankly, we're both just guessing when it comes right down to it. I'm not convinced my arguments for possible reasons for the Church policy on art are really the reasons at all. I think Jim Picht's hypothesis (that it's simply easier on an institutional basis) is more likely anyway. Still, I don't think that the way the Church presents its message leads to our artists leaving the Church. I don't see any support for the argument that it does. > > The lack of an explanation means that people have to pray about it and > > follow or not. Giving an explanation means that people can deal with > > the explanation without dealing with the message. No explanation means > > people have to argue with God. An explanation gives people a chance to > > argue with the GAs. I'd call that having more wiggle room if I can take > > on the reasoning of a GA instead of God. > > And if a large portion of church members did that, you may be right. But > I don't see it. I see many of them treating the silence as if it were a > message as loud and clear as a statement. But since there is no > information in silence, they provide their own information--i.e., > interpretation--then accept or argue with that. Same process + less > information to work with = larger wiggle room. I hope that a large portion of Church members do that. It is my belief that they do. I think that people are more likely to argue with GAs when they present a reason than will argue with them when they don't. A reason gives them traction to argue against. Lack of a reason means they have to cover *all* reasons or run a chance of sinning. Most of the members I know are very concerned about sinning and will do what they can to avoid sin. They are conservative. > > Okay, now try getting that explanation through a correlation committee > > and/or a unanimous vote of 15 people with vastly different backgrounds > > and opinions. > > Well, I was thinking of that statement being delivered by a General > Authority, not a committee of church magazine editors. But the > correlated approach to art is what I'm complaining about. As I give my > solutions, I'm doing so in the context of alternatives to correlation > committees, not as add-ons grafted onto them. Correlation Committees are not going to go away. But in my example above, I wasn't really referring to correlation committees as much as to *any* committee--including the Apostles themselves. Just because we don't hear about their discussions until they are unanimous doesn't mean that they are automatically all unanimous. And taking an action is *way* easier than agreeing to a reason for that action in a committee/institutional sense. > > Because art is nowhere *near* the equivalent of preaching the Gospel. > > No doubt you *can* teach gospel principles through art. We've had a > > number of discussions that indicate a faithful Mormon can't really *not* > > teach gospel principles through art, at least as much as they understand > > and believe gospel principles. But that is a whole lot different from > > preaching the Gospel direct because the direct address challenges the > > listener/reader to recognize the truth of doctrine taught plain. And as > > much as you may think you know or can communicate about something like > > the Atonement, you won't *really* know anything at all about it until > > you hear the story told plain and with accompanying testimony of its > > truth. > > I just plain disagree with you here, for the same reason that we differ > on reasons for artists leaving the church. I'm getting the impression > that you're only looking at the highly visible catalyst event to these > things: the straw-on-the-camel's-back fact from church history that > finally drives the intellectual over the edge, or the tracting > missionaries that find the golden contact and teach him the > discussions. > > But the preparatory stuff is equally as important--I'd say more > important. Without the preparation--the opening (or closing) of the > heart--the catalyst event becomes quite meaningless. Art will open > hearts much more effectively than sermons. > > I've heard many sermons on loving your enemy. All of them put together > did not drive that point home to me like one scene out of a movie: the > "Les Miserables" film with Richard Jordan as Valjean and Anthony Perkins > as Javert. When a bishop invites the destitute Valjean into his home, > feeds and beds him, then Valjean steals his silver plates and utensils, > and finally the police arrest him and bring him back to the bishop, the > bishop says the silver was a gift to Valjean to help him start over, and > also gives him a pair of silver candlesticks. This completely turned > Valjeans's life around, and etched itself indelibly in my mind as a > marvelous sermon of Christian love. This one scene is what instilled in > me the passion I have for the story behind "Les Miserables" as a superb > example of redemption and the efforts of one man to be truly Christlike. > > I don't so much as remember a single one of the sermons about this that > I've heard over the years. Not even from General Authorites! > > Maybe sermons have seemed more effective in preaching the Gospel because > we as an LDS culture have hardly use art, so we don't have the > experience to understand its power. Effective or not, sermons and/or gospel doctrine courses are necessary to learning the gospel and art isn't. No matter how good an example "Les Miserables" is of redemption and being truly Christlike, you cannot know about Christ or the reality of redemption unless it has been taught to you in straight-forward, undisguised language. Consider this: without knowing what redemption and Christlike behavior is, you would not have been able to enjoy "Les Miserables" so much. The same is not true. You cannot know about Christlike love without hearing about Christ first. > > Art may prepare someone to accept the Gospel, but a) it isn't the only > > way to be prepared to accept the Gospel and b) it isn't enough by itself > > for someone to accept the Gospel. > > Neither is the sermon if the heart isn't prepared. The fact that other > ways exist to prepare a person does not in any way diminish the > importance of art in doing so. Certainly not to the individual who _was_ > prepared by art. > > Since art in no way conflicts with other methods, why should > we diminish it? True, art doesn't have to conflict with other methods of teaching the gospel, but that doesn't mean it is equal with other methods. Some other methods are *required*, for example, and are, therefore, more important. You have to have the Gospel taught to you plain before you *can* accept it. Art may help, and it may prepare, and personally, I think it is important, but it is *not* required. So I understand when the GAs decide to support the required and leave the merely helpful to its (lesser) place. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Steed Family Date: 12 Jul 2001 20:19:59 -0600 katie@aros.net wrote: > Haven't heard this myself, but I did hear a woman (one I respect a lot, > actually) list off _TW&TG_ in Relief Society as a blessing that we have been > given in the latter days to help us understand church history and the gospel. Reminds of a priesthood meeting I attended in 1976 where one man claimed that there were children in the pre-existence because he'd seen them in _Saturday's Warrior_. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 12 Jul 2001 20:30:24 -0600 Tami Miller wrote: > I saw a program on Television about her the other day. She painted the > mural(s) for the Manti temple. They interviewed her assistant, and he said > that sometimes she would stop in the middle of a painting and they would > drop to their knee's and pray for inspiration. What a wonderful example for > any artist to follow. She also paid for family tuition at BYU with > paintings, so they have a lot of her work around campus. > > -Tami Miller > [My favorite artist is Greg Olsen (O Jerusalem)] To me, Greg Olsen is an illustrator, not an artist. It's not all that subtle a difference, in my opinion. An artist may paint a picture of Christ but it won't be Christ sitting on a rock, looking at Jerusalem. The artist is likely to show us an interpretation of Christ we've never seen before. I think of Salvador Dali and his clean-shaven Christ hanging magnetically to a cross both of them hovering over the globe of the earth. That, to me, is an artist's representation of Christ. That's why I consider Liz Swindle an artist in her paintings of Joseph and Emma Smith. These are not the traditional poses. Joseph has his shirt sleeves rolled up, holding a child to his breast. It's Joseph the Man. Enough -- far too many, imo -- other talented painting have painted various pictures of Joseph Smith the demi-god. I can believe that Swindle's Joseph can actually wrestle in the dirt with a fellow Saint. Christensen's an artist. His Church paintings do much more than create reality. The Widow's Mite is one that comes to mind. We see not only the poor widow (though she is just a bit too Western looking) but her relationship to the other supposedly faithful tithers. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 12 Jul 2001 21:25:41 -0500 Eric R. Samuelsen: Tom Trails is the worst of the lot. Larry Jackson: I haven't even seen these filmstrips, and I would agree. Eric: I actually quite like The Windows of Heaven I think it's called, about Lorenzo Snow and tithing. It's pretty old-fashioned looking nowadays, but quite well made. Larry: They have taken the original one-hour film and edited it down to about 30 minutes. The short version is just as good, IMO. About all they had to do was take out lots of wagon train music and scenes of blowing sand in southern Utah to get where they needed to be. I especially like the part at the end where President Snow, played by Francis Ury, I believe, was praying and asking if his own insufficient faith was keeping the rain away. I also got a kick out of the stake president's wife getting soaked in her dress when the rains finally came. Eric: And wasn't there a Church film many years ago about Saints in the Mexican colonies being killed by Pancho Villa? I vaguely remember it, and remember thinking it was quite good. Larry: And Should We Die. Two elders refused to deny their testimonies and were shot. It was based on a true story, I understand. This film was in black and white and ran 50 minutes, which was a problem, because the biggest takeup reel in most churches would only hold 40-minutes of film. Brave and talented 16mm projectionists (such as I), would make sure the tension was tight on the takeup reel and stack the extra ten minutes right onto that 40-minute reel. The film would stick out almost an inch. As long as I was careful, I could keep the film on the reel and get it safely rewound without any problem. Occasionally, a really helpful adult would come along and point out the problem, touching the reel and knocking all the film onto the cultural hall floor. A fast moving deacon would have the same effect. Then I would spend the next 1/2 hour untwisting and hand winding the film back onto the original reel. What memories! Thanks, Eric. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: [AML] re: LDS vs National Publishers Date: 12 Jul 2001 20:41:17 -0600 I must have missed something here. I thought the whole point behind = writing, whether you're Mormon or not, was to have a little fun. Or = maybe to help you understand some things--kind of help you think it out = better. I think it's kind of arrogant to assume we could write to an = audiance other than ourselves. Whoever listens listens. If readers = have fun with something I wrote--that's great! But, it really doesn't = have anything to do with me. If readers identify with something I wrote = and feel some comfort from it--that's great. But again--I has nothing = to do with me. If I'm wrong convince me. Paris Anderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: RE: [AML] Writing by Mormons and Non Date: 12 Jul 2001 23:34:32 -0600 >There was a limited release of the Left Behind movie early this year. It >played at one of the theatres here in Irvine, California. It was like God's >Army in that respect (played at a limited number of theatres). But I think >God's Army had a better turn out. > >Jerry Tyner > "God's Army" was a better movie by at least 1,000-fold, too. I was glad to see we Mormons had not cornered the market on bad art that people take part in simply because it's of high moral quality. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writing Group/Feedback Wanted Date: 13 Jul 2001 02:00:59 -0600 Stephen Goode wrote: > Finally, if there is some interest in writing groups again, and if it would > be advantageous to use a bulletin board system on a website as opposed to > email, I'm willing to host (in terms of space, bandwidth, and software) an > AML-List writing groups area on one of my websites. Or take a look below my signature and join an existing one. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 13 Jul 2001 02:17:27 -0600 Kellene Adams wrote: > I have to be obnoxious. . . . Is Christ boring? Good question. I like obnoxiousness if it makes me think. I don't think Christ is boring, but I do think "perfect" characters are boring. How to resolve this contradiction? As you say, Christ is the only sinless person who ever existed. That means a very simple thing: when Christ is depicted as perfect, it's the truth. When anyone else is depicted as perfect, it's a lie. I think that's where the contradiction is resolved. I think it's fascinating to study what Christ must have been like. What was his personality? What was his sense of humor like? Did he go around looking morose like so many films show him? He certainly didn't speak in King James English, but what sort of language did he use? High-falutin' language like King James English sounds to us? Or more common speech, so he sounded like a regular guy? When we show him only quoting himself from the Bible, is it a reasonably accurate depiction of how he was, or an iconic fantasy we hero-worshippers manufactured? Just how perfect do you need to be to be perfect? What does it mean to grow up from infancy and learn line upon line, precept upon precept, and yet never sin? These and many more are all questions that make the Savior a fascinating character study. But they are fascinating because it's a given that he really was perfect--he's our role model for what perfection is all about. Any other character who is perfect is not fascinating: it's just bad characterization--or blasphemy. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 13 Jul 2001 10:27:41 -0600 On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:06:49 -0600 "Eric R. Samuelsen" writes: > Barta Heiner, the world's greatest > actress (for once, I'm being sincere) I have played Henry to Barta's Eleanor in "Lion in Winter" twice now and I can honestly say that I have never had more fun on stage. Even when we totally muddle up the "I-slept-with-your-father" scene it's magical working with her. And Eric brings up an interesting subject. I have not really enjoyed very much Church-sponsored art. In high school (before the advent of video cassettes) a bunch of us youth would occasionally go to the Mormon Battalion Visitors' Center in San Diego on a Sunday evening and get the couple missionaries to show us some of those old movies ... if they weren't doing tours at the time. But, that was more of a social event than any kind of art appreciation fireside. So, as for Andrew's poll, I don't really have anything to point to as a favorite ... except a particular performance. I loved Mark Deakins as Christ in "The Lamb of God." So far it is the only time I have seen the savior in a church project where something was actually happening behind the eyes. Mark's Jesus FELT things, THOUGHT things, even FEARED things. These are tiny moments, but to an actor they speak volumes; when Pilate (one of Michael Flynne's best performances) pushes Christ aside, Christ LOOKS at Pilate. He doesn't just stumble away in abject humility, he reacts to that disrespect. When the soldiers escort Christ to the top of Calvary and give him a shove and walk away, Christ turns as if to rebuke them but stops when he sees his disciples. Now this calls to mind another thread: Writing about "good" people. That whole discussion is really off the mark as far as I'm concerned. Remember who started that whole thing (Thom) and you'll realize that we started with pretty much a false dichotomy. Thom doesn't believe in "good" and "bad" people any more than anybody else does. As has been pointed out, there is only one "Good" man and He is rather interesting after all, despite his lack of "badness." What we're really talking about is conflict. We write about (hopefully) realistic characters who are embroiled in the battle between Good and Evil. What makes these characters interesting (or not interesting) to us are the choices they make in the face of the conflicts before them. I suppose you could say that Atticus Finch is a "good" man, but what interests me about him is not his relative goodness or badness considered in an abstract vacuum, but how he deals with the adversity that he finds in his life. So, Mark Deakins as Jesus Christ is the best there's ever been in any church sponsored project that I have seen. The nut of it all being that I could tell that his Jesus was CHOOSING to be perfect, even if he felt at times like not being so. As much as I like Mark's performance in this movie, I wish that the camera had spent more time on him. With Mark's talent we could have had more than just a glimpse. Still, it's more than we've ever had. Yesterday I ran into the man who played Peter in "Savior of the World." I will not rehash my feelings on that show, but I want to share something that I learned that supports something I and others have been saying for some time. Most recently Eric Samuelsen has made the point that what offends me may inspire you. Many people can't see the truth in that but I heard it again yesterday when David told me about all the physical permutations he went through trying to get the right look for Peter. What amazed him was that one person was so grateful that Peter had a goatee (at one point) which made it possible for them to identify with him. David walked down the hall and two minutes later had a conversation with someone who was glad that the goatee was removed so that they could identify better with the character. David's conclusion was that if you come seeking the spirit, you will find it. What it means to LDS artists is, you CANNOT please everyone. Make your work between you and the Lord and forget the critics. As Thom says, "Let the chips fall as they may." J. Scott Bronson -- Member of Playwrights Circle --- "The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent upon it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do." Galileo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: [AML] Miscellaneous Remarks Date: 13 Jul 2001 10:56:55 -0600 Thom Duncan writes: [...] >The paintings on the cover of the Ensign are not art. They >are illustrations. Why don't the _Ensign_ cover paintings qualify as art? And does this include the cover paintings by people like Minerva Teichert? [MOD: Another message from Thom in today's batch of posts (Saturday) addresses this question.] D. Michael Martindale writes: [...] >I'm sure Brigham Young didn't want to hear about the real >follies of real people--but that says nothing about fiction. >Since your quote from Brigham Young contradicts Amelia's >quote from Brigham Young--unless we make the distinction of >real vs. fictional--I have to assume Brigham Young also made >that distinction in his mind. The references I cited (to passages I will not quote here because of their length) specifically address works of fiction. It would be an understatement to say that in these references Brigham does not come across as a fan of novel reading as a useful pathway to the truth. Eric Samuelsen writes: [...] >If I'm not totally mistaken, didn't George P. Lee play Tom >Trails? Tom Trails was Gary Smith. (See Wayne B. Lynn's preface to _Tom Trails: A New Beginning_.) In a different thread, Eric writes: [...] >I suspect that Elder Packer would be the first to disavow >that label 'artist.' He has made such disavowals. I think modesty played a part in them. >He certainly paints, and his paintings are quite competent >landscapes. I am much more impressed by his carvings. To my untrained eye they are more impressive than many things I see in the HFAC. >But "The Arts and the Spirit of the Lord". the talk to which >you refer, is filled with his own protestations that he's not >an artist, and that there's a fundamental level at which, by >his own admission, he doesn't know what he's talking about. The only place I can see him discussing his inadequacy as an artist is in the 4th paragraph. In the following two paragraphs, he asserts, nevertheless, his credentials for speaking on inspiration and the arts. [Of the play President Kimball saw in San Francisco, Eric writes:] >The play was clearly a comedy It's not clear to me. A few sentences before the ones I quoted, he called the play a "drama", but perhaps he was using that term in its generic sense. He did say that the audience laughed, but that doesn't just happen in farces, does it? [...] >I said that I have never known an artist who created >anything intending to do evil in the world. Obviously >artists are as capable of sin as any mortals. But I have >never once known an artist who has said "I know, I'll write >this play/novel/poem/song or create this painting/film/ >sculpture in order to promote evil in the world." That seems to set the bar pretty high (or low, depending on your perspective). A lot of evil acts done for evil reasons fail to meet this standard, don't they? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 13 Jul 2001 02:33:04 -0600 Tracie Laulusa wrote: > It is basically about two good people who have been > building a life for 50 or so years together, with all the ups and downs life > generally throws people. I haven't found it a bit boring, discovering tiny > piece by tiny piece, who they are and how they've lived their lives. > So, I don't know what your "technically 'good'" involves. Maybe you could > explain in a little more detail. A character who has no foibles, no weaknesses, who never makes a wrong choice, who has no blind sides to his outlook on life, who never hurts anyone, intentional or otherwise. A character who, while "building a life for 50 years," never faces any tribulation which isn't resolved in a simple, pat fashion. A person who never gets discouraged unto despair. This is basic Fiction 101. Your heroes need to have some endearing foibles, and maybe even a not-so-endearing one or two, or we'll begin to disbelieve in and resent them. Mostly good people are still not all-the-way good. We've been coming at this from the "good" end, but it works the same way in the opposite direction. Have you ever heard of "one-dimensional" or "cardboard" villains? Your villains need to have some good points to them, or they are just as unbelievable and boring as all-good characters. They must at the very least have understandable, sympathetic reasons for doing the evil they do. So you see, I'm not just trying to get everyone's characters to be bad. It's that balance thing again. Good people need to have some bad to them, but bad people need just as much to have some good to them. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Kent HUFF, _Brigham Young's United Order_ (Review) Date: 13 Jul 2001 02:41:39 -0600 Jeff Needle wrote: > I'm glad to know this volume is available in paperback. Thanks for the good > info. > > > BRIGHAM YOUNG'S UNITED ORDER The Joseph Smith one is too. I just came across a used copy of the hardback which was cheaper than the paperback, so that's the one I own. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell Hunt" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 13 Jul 2001 12:51:18 -0500 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: >I've been comparing in my mind what Darvell said to what Richard Dutcher >said about LDS filmmakers: they shouldn't waste their time making the >typical Hollywood films. Anyone can do that. They ought to make films >only LDS filmmakers can make. > >When it came out of Richard's mouth, I liked it, but when it came out of >Darvell's mouth, I didn't. So I had to figure out the cause of this >apparent contradiction. I simply said it is better to write for passion than to write for money. I see somewhat how that relates to what Richard Dutcher said. I'm sorry you didn't like it when I said it. It's kind of like this: it's better to have sex with someone whom you love as opposed to doing it in a hotel for money. It's basically the same act, but the intent and the rewards are so much different. Writing for the love of writing is so much better than prostitution writing. But with the writing market of today, even the LDS market, prostitution writing is what sells. and if you want to sell, you have to write what the masses want. I have written a number of novels, but the ideal target audience of them has been myself. That is why they have not sold yet. What I'm trying to do with my current novel is attempt to make a marriage of passion writing and prostitution writing -- something that I feel passionate about, but will also sell to the LDS market. I've spent a long time in the learning curve and I hope it pays off soon. I first resisted the temptation to comment on what has been said since regarding my previous statements about writing for passion and mainstream writers "selling us out." To clarify what I had said that I felt was being misinterpreted. But I though my original statement was about as good as I could do. Maybe not. I think it might be helpful here to compare Richard Dutcher to Neil Labute. I recently saw that _Your Friends and Neighbors_ by Neli Labute was on my satellite dish, so I decided to see what all of the commotion was about. I watched about five minutes of the beginning and changed the channel. I didn't like it. I occasionally swtiched back to see if I had missed something, and I still didn't like it. It wasn't an LDS story and wasn't something that I considered appropriate for me to view, and I'm pretty liberal when it comes to viewing movies. Now maybe that's Neil Labute's passion, I don't know. But it was NOT the same passion that I saw in _God's Army_ or _Brigham City_, but I bet it made more money. Did Labute write and direct that movie for himself or for the movie viewers "of the world?" (I personally cannot say, but I have my opinion.) >Whereas Darvell seemed to be saying we shouldn't write to the general >market at all, but restrict ourselves to speaking to ourselves. I think my statements were misunderstood. For one thing, I was talking about myself at this particular moment of my writing career. I feel that "once I make it big" in the LDS market, that I would branch out to the mainstream market. I've always thought that would be a natural step. But tha's NOT where I want to go NOW. >Individual authors should choose for themselves which direction they >want to go: LDS, world, or both. But as a group, I would hope we do all >of it. I agree with that. That's part of the point that I was trynig to make. When I made the statement about "selling us out," I qualified it in parentheses that I wasn't trying to be critical of those who might be considered doing just that. I was meaning that _I_ didn't want to do that at this time and that I kind of felt like those who did were "selling us out," mostly because that's how I would feel about myself if I did that. >This seems to come up over and over again--people trying to restrict >wh at authors write. The only person whose writing I want to restrict is my own. I have no right to do that for others, nor would I try. That doesn't mean that I have to read what others write. >We as a group need to write ALL of it. But each individual is free to >choose which subset he will focus on--and is not free to tell someone >else what to focus on. Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself. >> I don't accept Darvell's apparent suggestion that writing >> specifically to a Mormon audience is somehow nobler than writing to a >> broader national audience, but I also don't find anything wrong with >> his or any other artist's choice to write to a specific audience, >> either. > >Agreed here. I'm a bit confused at this suggestion that has been attributed to me. I can possibly see how this supposition might have been made indirectly from my post, but it certainly was not my intent to say that. Look at it this way: If Steve Young had gone to San Francisco and changed who he was by living the life of a famous football player and forgetting this LDS ideals, would he have "sold us old?" Steve remained true to who he was and let everybody know who he was. He was both an LDS icon AND an American icon, not just an American one. That's sort of what I meant. Just remembering who you are. And that may actually be a process rather than single step for someone who suceeds in the national market without doing it in the local LDS market first. >> > > It's part of being true to yourself. There are mainstream LDS writers out >> > > there who don't put any LDS material in their writing. Doesn't that kind of >> > > feel like they sold "us" out? >> > >> >Ouch! Back to dictating what other authors should write about. >> >> I'm not sure he's dictating anything; I think he's expressing an >> opinion, just like the rest of us do. We all need to be a little less >> sensitive about what other people believe. You left off my parenthetical statement about trying not to be critical of other people's writing. I'm not telling others what to write about. This is why I didn't want to respond in the first place. I felt my original post said what I wanted to say. One thing that I dislike very much is when people explain what I said, basically inerpreting my words to mean something else than what I meant. Now I suppose that some of that is my fault and wouldn't happen if I had been completely clear in the first place, but you can't always write so that everyone with a different point of view and a different experience can understand. This whole topic reminds me of the letter to the editor about me this last week in the Lehi Free Press. The person was writing in response to what I had written and was using my name, but he wasn't talking about me. He was writing about the California move-ins, which he thought I might be. He had his own axe to grind and my name served as the carrier wave for his message. If you want to know what I meant, you ask me. But don't tell me. Thanks for listening. Darvell _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Steed Family Date: 13 Jul 2001 13:03:21 -0600 >And I'm still waiting for the answer, too . . . >;-) -- Ronn! :) The Steeds were characters Gerald Lund created as the fictional core family of The Work and the Glory series. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Steed Family Date: 13 Jul 2001 13:08:04 -0600 At 05:39 PM 7/11/01 -0600, you wrote: >I imagine that most readers understand that the Steeds are fictional, but I >wonder how many accept the books as scripture anyway. Or as something pretty >close. Orson Scott Card said that some people thought the stories he invented for the Living Sciptures tapes were themselves scriptures. He said that those people needed to actually read the scriptures themselves so they'd know what was and wasn't in there. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 13 Jul 2001 16:49:22 -0600 Kathy, The C.S. Lewis book you quote would have to be "The Magician's Nephew", just in case anyone wants to look it up. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] Sidney B. SPERRY, _Knowledge is Power_ (Review) Date: 13 Jul 2001 17:53:31 -0700 Review ====== Sidney B. Sperry, "Knowledge is Power" 1958, Bookcraft Hardback, 269 pages, $3.25 Out of Print Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle What a pleasure it is to find an old book by a trusted author, dust-cover intact, signed by the author while he was visiting a town just ten miles from your home! Such is "Knowledge is Power," a new title for me, perhaps not known to many. Seasoned LDS readers will recognize Sperry as one of Mormonism's most respected scholars. His work in various disciplines, especially his Book of Mormon research, were, at one time, well known among Scripture students. Alas, he is hardly known today among the new generation of Saints. "Knowledge is Power" is a collection of articles written by Dr. Sperry, covering a wide variety of subjects. A look at the Table of Contents is instructive. Chapters 1-5 deal with the Inspired Version of the Bible. Other chapters deal with the questions of whether Jesus and Paul were married, the "Isaiah problem" in the Book of Mormon, the role of ancient and modern temples, new thoughts about the Great Apostasy, the timing of the writing of the title page in Book of Mormon, and many other subjects. I don't recall ever reading one of Dr. Sperry's books that covered so much territory. It gave me a chance to re-evaluate my feelings about his writing. I have long suspected that one might separate his work into two broad categories: exposition and apologetics. Concerning the former, he is, in my opinion, generally pretty good. One chapter in this book concerns the three visitors to father Abraham, wherein he debunks the idea that one of them was the Lord. It was pretty convincing. However, I've felt, and still feel, that his apologetics lack believability and cogency. And this is based largely on my distrust of a heavily presuppositional apologetic method. Perhaps an example will clarify my meaning. Chapter 15 is titled "Hebrew Idioms in the Book of Mormon." He then proceeds to offer numerous examples of Hebrew idioms in the BOM, followed by comparative cites from the Old Testament. His conclusion: this proves the Book of Mormon to be of Hebrew origin. One can only reach such a conclusion if one is already convinced of the antiquity of the Book of Mormon. It may be that Sperry is preaching to the choir here, but he doesn't succeed in giving the reader any objective basis for acceptance of the Book of Mormon as an ancient document. Regardless of one's feelings about the antiquity of the Book of Mormon, one must be troubled by Sperry's methodology. He doesn't acknowledge alternative explanations for such idioms. Why couldn't one simply say that Joseph Smith just copied these phrases from the Bible? Why wouldn't it be just as valid to say that Joseph Smith, having read and heard the Bible from an early age, supplied phrases that were familiar to him? Sperry doesn't address this at all in this chapter. In a later chapter, he does address this issue, but from a different standpoint, irrelevant to the conclusion-jumping in this chapter. I had hoped for more than this, but was not rewarded. (Note: I am not expressing my own convictions on the subject, only raising the question of whether Sperry's methodology is effective.) On the other hand, the expositional chapters, as noted, are very good. His reasons for entertaining the possibility that Jesus and Paul were married are thought-provoking, but he draws no conclusions, leaving this to the reader. Another chapter, "The Meaning of Peter's Confession," offers some good historical views on how the Christian Church has understood this account. I'm glad to have this book. If you stumble across a copy, by all means, buy it. But be prepared to be alternately delighted and disappointed. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 14 Jul 2001 04:59:53 -0600 I was out of town last week so I apologize for the lateness of this post. ---Original Message From: Eric R. Samuelsen > I didn't say that. I said that I have never known an artist > who created anything intending to do evil in the world. > Obviously artists are as capable of sin as any mortals. But > I have never once known an artist who has said "I know, I'll > write this play/novel/poem/song or create this > painting/film/sculpture in order to promote evil in the > world." They say "this is a fun little dance tune." They > say "this may not be the best show on television, but it's > fun and people will find it amusing." They say "by shocking > the audience, we'll free from their bourgeois conventionality > and allow they to experience the world as it really is, in > all its ugliness and violence." In general, I tend to agree with you, Eric, though from an entirely different perspective. But I think that this paragraph is the point where we differ most. I think the key here is the phrase "intending to do evil in the world". What does that mean? The problem is in defining evil. If you let everyone define evil for themselves, then it is impossible for anyone to ever intend to do evil. But if you define evil even so loosely as "actively harms another for personal gain" then I think that there are artists who intend to do evil in the world. Some "artists" really do think "by providing the vile images some people crave, I can get money". How about that Neil Labute play you enjoyed in England? Did the artist character intend to do evil? I think she knew that she was actively harming the young man for no other purpose than her selfish project. I think that she was evil, but that she didn't care. I think the existence of evil art is an important question and one that we had better be very careful about tossing a negative at too carelessly. The thing is, while I don't know anyone personally who has evil intentions, I know they exist. I know that our world includes child pornographers. I was going to make a list of other evil, vile things I know exist, but even the list was, well, icky, and not something I want to dwell on too long. Bottomline, there are people who intend to do evil in the world. And part of the problem is that we *don't* know who they are because they hide (sometimes physically, sometimes by using their art to cloak their intent). There are people who know that what they are doing is wrong, even evil, and they do it anyway. You yourself tend to focus on those motivated by greed. Others are motivated by lust, or pride, or power. How else do you explain the disconnect with network executives who release press statements that "of *course* our album/sit com/movie couldn't motivate a youngster to do evil--where *are* his/her parents, anyway?" and then spend the rest of their career convincing other businesses to give them lots of money so that they can motivate youngsters to buy products with his album/sit com/movie? Or is it just businessmen who actually intend to do evil in the world? Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell Hunt" Subject: [AML] Being a Town Historian Date: 13 Jul 2001 17:47:17 -0500 Last night (Thursday) at the Saratoga Springs town meeting, the city council officially appointed as the town historian. I'm excited about this new position, even though I don't know much about what I'm going to be doing. Has anyone ever been appointed town historian? I'd appreciate any comments from anyone who has experience doing this. I'm going to be taking pictures, clipping newspaper articles (some of them my own), writing about the people of the city, and doing other such "history-keeping" activities. I'd love to hear what anybody has to say about this. Thanks Darvell Hunt _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: [AML] Mormonism and Truth in Literature (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 14 Jul 2001 06:53:04 -0600 [MOD: I've chosen a new subject line for this part of the thread because it's clearly moving in different directions from the original thread. In particular, I'd like to stress the "in Literature" part of my thread title. This discussion is on-topic for our List only to the degree that we keep the primary focus on literature and literary depictions.] ---Original Message From: Amelia Parkin > Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > > But you see, we *aren't* just like the rest of the world. We may be > > part of the world every bit as much as others are, and we certainly > > are as human as others are, but we have something that none of the > > others have (the Gospel). And if that doesn't make a difference in > > your story, then your story will be abandoned by Mormon readers. > > Jacob, you have struck the core of my argument. And you have struck a raw > nerve with me. So here goes. Since when do Mormons have the Gospel and, > let's say, Baptists do not? Last time I checked, there were still more > copies of the Bible sold than any other book, worldwide. And if the Bible > doesn't contain the Gospel of Christ, what does? It's time to take off > our blinders. There are people who will never, in this life time, be > Mormon. And they are every bit as good as you and me. And they have as > much access to the Gospel as they need in order to be good people. It's > time for Mormons to recognize that we in no way have the corner on the > market of Gospel truth. Sure, we have some knowledge that other religions > don't. That's important. That's very important. But, as I > discovered one hot summer afternoon in a Baptist church, they have some > knowledge that unfortunately we seem to not have--not because we *can't* > have it but because we remain culturally blindfolded to it. It's time for > Mormons to begin to understand that other people are not to be pitied > because they don't have the Gospel. I know, this isn't much about Mormon > lit but it's important. I agree that it is important, and this is my nerve too, so I suppose we'll have to see if we can't stay civilized and I'll try to explain why I say what I do because I couldn't disagree with you more. Other Churches have the gospel available to them, but not one of them has the whole Gospel. We do. The Bible is not enough because many plain and precious truths were removed and many key doctrines are cloudy. But that just delays the question, really. Other Churches have the Book of Mormon, too, and even they don't have the whole Gospel because they lack the priesthood of God to give the Gospel life. Like I said, yes others can be good. People in other religions can be better than me (not that hard, really). But without the Church and the Gospel, they lack things that are essential to salvation. And while someone may be better than me and not have the fullness of the Gospel, they are *not* as good as *they* could be if they had the Gospel. And they won't be able to get as close to God as they are capable until they *do* have it. People from other religions may have everything they need to be good people, but they will never reach their potential, or enjoy eternal happiness until they get the fullness. And that, to me, means that we do, in fact, have a corner on the market of Gospel Truth. Others may have a little truth squirreled away here and there, and they may have something that I personally need to learn (in fact, Article of Faith 13 tells me that that is certainly true), but we have *everything* needed to return to God and none of the others do. Let me put it on the most personal level I can: if we don't have anything unique--if we aren't better off for having the fullness of the Gospel--then what they heck am I doing wasting my time being a Mormon? I'd certainly find it easier being Baptist. > Jacob wrote: > > > > You can't be sinning and Christlike at the same time. Christlike is > > by definition without sin. I think you could show someone who *has* > > sinned and is Christlike. You could probably show that someone is > > Christlike and still sins, but you'll have to show how that sin > > affects your characters because fundamental to LDS theology is that > > sin carries damage. > > If this is true, than we may as well all give up. Why? Damage doesn't equal irreparable. Thanks to the atonement, there is very little that is irreparable sin-wise. > We certainly *can* be > sinning and be Christlike. If not then everyone alive is > hopeless. No one, ever, with the exception of Jesus Christ himself, has > lived a sinless life. And I would argue that it's not even done in brief > stretches for most people. You are talking as if we are always our totality. We aren't. We sin, we repent, we approach Christ, we move away. But I can see how I wasn't very clear, here. I've taken kind of a dim view of people claiming that this thing or that thing is Christlike and it is something of a reflex to challenge the claim. As you say, with the exception of Christ himself, we all fall short. I hung up on the term and didn't address your concern which you reiterate below. > I can, and have, simultaneously loved my family dearly > (Christlike) and hurt my family (sin). Just a small example; > there are other larger ones. The point is that we constantly struggle > to become more Christlike. But the fact that we sin does not mean that we > are in not at all Christlike. I have many friends who are sinning but who somehow > manage to love selflessly, to serve others, to seek truth, to be honest, > and on and on. If that is not a combination of Christlike behavior with > sinful behavior, then I'm not sure what it is. Of course sin affects us. > Of course this must be represented. But it must be represented > accurately, or I'd rather not have it represented at all. It affects us > in infinite gradations, not just in black and white. I understand. I certainly agree that people are mixtures of all kinds of elements. I'm a little concerned, though, that your examples of good tend to be internal and the bad is external. One of the things I find so repulsive is the modern trend to excuse the harm done to others just because it is accompanied by good intentions. You love your family but hurt them. Well, which is more important to your family? We are mixtures of a number of influences, true, but some of those influences are more immediately important than others. A feeling of benevolent kindness is not enough to make up for harm you may be doing to those around you. Just as treating someone with kindness is more important than your internal desire to take them off and have your way with them. > And it's about time > that we represented this accurately enough that we begin to truly > understand the principle of non-judgment. Non-judgment? That's a good thing, right? The thing is, we've lost the meaning of a word here, somewhere. Judge not lest ye be judged. To some is given a spirit of discernment. Judgment is bad and Discernment is good? I think there are two concepts that really need to be treated separately though we tend to conflate them into the word judge. In one, you set yourself above another and presume to pass judgment on them, essentially usurping the role of God. In the other, you recognize that an action (or even motivation) is wrong and requires correction, condemnation, and censure. Love the sinner but hate the sin. It's a tough line to draw, but an important one. > So that we don't see a "sinner" > who suffers the consequences of sin so completely that we utterly condemn > them. And so that we aren't scared to death of sinning ourselves, so > scared that we transfer the condemnation of other sinners onto ourselves. > Sure we need to be wary of sinning. And yes, we need to be able to > condemn sin when we commit it. But we don't need the kind of paralyzing > condemnation that results from a black and white understanding of the > nature of sin. We need to condemn sin. And we need to love the sinner. And we need to recognize that the sinner needs help and do what we can to offer it. That's a tough task, but one central to the gospel. The thing is that separating the sinner from the sin is a line that is hard to draw in real life even with the Spirit to help us (when we think to ask). It's harder still when you are creating the lines in a novel or play. What you seem to be saying is that you want a lighter touch, and I agree that we should strive to be realistic, I'm no fan of revolving-door literature. But I won't be able to accept a story where someone can sin and suffer no consequences. Not that consequences have to be heavy or eternal. They just have to exist. Between sin and reconciliation is a period of estrangement. If you show sin and reconciliation without any of the estrangement, then I'm not going to be able to follow you in your story. > and on the same subject to Chris Grant: > > I said I want the latitude to represent the actuality that > joy and sin can be conflated in the same act or set of acts. I want to be > able to represent complex reality. As with anything, sin or sinful acts > are complex sites of intersection. Sometimes sexual sin is not purely > lascivious gratification of desire. Sometimes it actually has to do with > love. And as such it can be an expression of love, just like it is > between a husband and wife. The fact that it happens outside of the bonds > of marriage may make it sinful but it does not negate the fact that it is > a loving act, one which may and probably does bring joy. That creates a > whole new situation than that of the situation of depraved sexual sin. A > sinner who experiences joy in conjunction with their sin will have a very > different struggle than he or she who does not. And I believe that there > are those out there who face that situation. Why is it that we can't talk > about such situations so that people can figure out how to deal with them > outside the isolation of actually being in the situation? You are going to have to define your use of Joy here. To me, Joy is a gift from God, a blessing. In my experience, admittedly personal and hardly representative, I am unable to feel Joy unless I am reconciled to God. I cannot imagine feeling true Joy and sinning at the same time. I might feel pleasure or satisfaction, maybe even love or happiness but not Joy. Men are that they might have Joy. That is the purpose of life. Elsewhere in the scriptures, we know that the purpose of life is to give us the chance to return to be with our Heavenly Father. Internally, to me, Joy = returning to my Heavenly Father and is something I approach as I approach God. So I won't ever buy a story where sin and joy (my definition) are conflated in the same act or set of acts. And if you bring sexual sin into the equation, the extremes magnify. I believe that sexual sin is detrimental to love. One of the reasons that sexual sin is so serious is because it undermines the very thing it is attempting to express. A part of the problem I have with the "sex is good" theme is that it tends to gloss over the "sex is powerful" reality. Including sex in your art runs the risk of overwhelming anything else you are doing--the more explicit the more overwhelming. Sex *is* good if it is held in the bounds God has given us and the power of sex can draw a married couple together in a way little else can. But outside the bounds God set, that power can destroy. Sex is a nuclear sin, you can power a city or blow it up. That is why it would be difficult to buy your original premise of a woman who is loving and happy who has an affair and is still loving and happy. It could possibly be done, but that sexual sin will become the focus of that character whether you like it to or not. You can rebuild a blown up city, and even build a nuclear plant to power it, but not without some serious effort and not a little pain. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Two Prophets on Novel Reading Date: 14 Jul 2001 08:56:31 -0600 In light of a recent thread on what Prophets have to say about reading novels, I thought you'd find the following interesting: Discourses of Brigham Young, p.257 Novel reading=97is it profitable? I would rather that persons read novels than read nothing. 9:173. Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p.325 There is altogether too much novel reading of that class of novels which teaches nothing useful, and only tends to the excitement of the emotions. Excessive novel reading we all know is detrimental to the intellectual development of those who engage in it, and the wise and those who seek advancement might well give more time to useful, educational works=97books that would enlighten the reader on history, biography, religion, and other important subjects which all well-informed people are expected to understand. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators (was: (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art) Date: 14 Jul 2001 14:01:37 -0500 > > To me, Greg Olsen is an illustrator, not an artist. > > It's not all that subtle a difference, in my opinion. An artist may paint a > picture of Christ but it won't be Christ sitting on a rock, looking at > Jerusalem. The artist is likely to show us an interpretation of Christ we've > never seen before. I think of Salvador Dali and his clean-shaven Christ hanging > magnetically to a cross both of them hovering over the globe of the earth. That, > to me, is an artist's representation of Christ. > Have to disagree with you there. To me an artist is someone who celebrates the creativity God has bestowed upon him/her, and is able to produce a product at a higher degree than the average person. We may not like it. We may not agree with it. We may miss something in it (as you do with Olsen's work), but he/she is still an artist. Certainly Olsen's work would fall under this. He celebrates his talent, shares it, and lets face it, he can portray an image far better than most of us. What you have described in your definition, is your personal preference. I like to look at a peace of work and see a story. I like to see definition and detail. Olsen does that for me. Illustrators are artists. As are writers, actors, directors, chefs, musicians, singers, composers, quilters, sculpters, speakers, photographers, and others. I find joy in others achievements. I admire and praise them. To create is a part of our Godlike attributes. The problem I find with being overly critical, is that not only to we put down the creator, we put down those who like the creation. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 14 Jul 2001 14:15:15 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: > Thom Duncan writes: > > [...] > >The paintings on the cover of the Ensign are not art. They > >are illustrations. > > Why don't the _Ensign_ cover paintings qualify as art? And > does this include the cover paintings by people like Minerva > Teichert? > [MOD: Another message from Thom in today's batch of posts (Saturday) > addresses this question.] Yes, it did, but let me reiterate. Minerva, like today's Ensing artists, may have had the Church as her client, but she was able to go way beyond what the client said they wanted and gave them what they needed. In doing so, she led them to believe that they got what they originally ordered, but in reality, they got much more. Also, the church's decision hierarchy was not as intact as it is today. I talked with several Church artists (and was employed for several years as one myself in the area of audio visual production) and the hoops one has to jump through today when using the media to communicate with other Church members is herculean. On more than one occasion, while doing training material at the MTC, we would come up against some middle-management, non-GA type person who was quite certain that if "Elder So-and-So were to see this, he'd be offended." And on those same occasions, while working against the system and getting Elder So-and-So's ear, we discovered that not only was Elder So-and-So NOT offended, but he was utterly delighted about the direction we were taken. So what I'm saying is that there is a stronger layer of middle-management between the artist and the real decision making authority in the Church, and a lot of artists tend to stop asking questions when "Brother (not Elder) So-and-So" tells them that this painting of Joseph Smith with pit stains wouldn't be appropriate for the cover of the Ensign. Tom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Re: Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 14 Jul 2001 14:38:57 -0600 At 08:30 PM 7/12/01 -0600, you wrote: >It's not all that subtle a difference, in my opinion. An artist may paint a >picture of Christ but it won't be Christ sitting on a rock, looking at >Jerusalem. The artist is likely to show us an interpretation of Christ we've >never seen before. I think of Salvador Dali and his clean-shaven Christ >hanging >magnetically to a cross both of them hovering over the globe of the earth. >That, >to me, is an artist's representation of Christ. Thom, your notion that art must always show us something new is just that--a notion. If you consider that important, you need to do it with your own artistic endeavors. But the fact that we're familiar with an idea or a concept does not mean it's no longer valid as a subject. I don't want to look at a surrealistic painting such as the one you describe--it would send my mind off into a variety of tangents that have nothing to do with my relationship with the Savior. It would be a distraction. I don't see how you can say it's more artistic than the other. The General Authorities tell us the same things over and over in Conference because we're still not following up on them. We need to be constantly reminded of concepts we've heard before. Conference talks are not artistic endeavors, of course, but I think you're a bit dogmatic when you say that art MUST present something in a new way. Barbara R. Hume, Editorial Empress Complete range of writing and editing services High-tech a specialty TechVoice, Inc. (801) 765-4900 barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kellene Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 14 Jul 2001 15:57:31 -0600 But does good writing really every > > Kellene Adams wrote: > >> I have to be obnoxious. . . . Is Christ boring? D. Michael writes: > > Good question. I like obnoxiousness if it makes me think. > > I don't think Christ is boring, but I do think "perfect" characters are > boring. How to resolve this contradiction? > > As you say, Christ is the only sinless person who ever existed. That > means a very simple thing: when Christ is depicted as perfect, it's the > truth. When anyone else is depicted as perfect, it's a lie. I think > that's where the contradiction is resolved. > Kellene writes: I didn't think we were talking about people being portrayed as perfect. Rather, the good writing we're talking about is not trying to portray people as perfect but simply as people struggling with that natural man side of them and striving to become perfect at some point (most likely in the next life, not this one). What I'm hearing some people say (and I could very possibly be interpreting incorrectly) is that portraying this struggle--particularly in the realm of Mormondom--is boring. And that's what I can't agree with. I'm also getting the feeling that some of us feel that portraying that struggle is boring because we doubt the sincerity or credibility of these people. [Kellene Adams] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OmahaMom@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 14 Jul 2001 18:20:53 EDT If Christensen is the one who did the Parable of the Ten Virgins, he didn't do his homework very well. Although the people look exotic & Eastern, most of the peoples in the Middle East wouldn't have had a pig in their midst. Certainly the women that the Savior told about waiting for the Bridegroom wouldn't have had a pig with them. Pork is considered unclean for food, as an animal needs to have a cloven hoof AND chew its cud to be considered acceptable. Moslems won't touch pork either. Karen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Provo Freedom Festival Parade Date: 15 Jul 2001 00:03:42 -0600 On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:07:49 GMT, cgileadi@emerytelcom.net wrote: >What I always hated the most were those floats with little girls dressed= scanty=20 >doing hip-swinging BYU-cheerleader moves to blaring prerecorded music. = =46or me=20 >that was ultimate vulgarity. But again I think it's a cultural thing, = our=20 >barely-disguised fascination with skin and sublimated suggestiveness. My mother recently reminded me that I once marched in this parade = twirling a baton, in my blue and silver-sequined costume. This was naturally years ago--I was probably six or seven--and has really nothing to do with the above anecdote, since despite being scantily clad in our leotards we were definitely not swinging our hips. And we had to walk. Yuck. But it did make me think about the ways in which the parade has changed while ultimately remaining the same. I haven't been to the parade = since...hmmm, probably since I was a baton-twirling tyke. Thanks for the memories, = Eric. I loved it. Melissa Proffitt (who has been in more than her share of parades, but thankfully never as = a beauty queen) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luannstaheli Subject: [AML] Michael O. TUNNELL, _Brothers in Valor_ Date: 14 Jul 2001 17:29:51 -0600 Since people on this list have commented they aren't always aware of YA books published by LDS authors , I thought I'd encourage you to check out Michael O. Tunnell's new YA novel Brothers in Valor: A Story of Resistance published by Holiday House in New York. It's based on the true story of three LDS boys living in Hitler's Germany. Michael is an English professor at BYU. I've only just started the book, but I was already impressed that on the third page of text he has already identified the characters as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. [LuAnn Staheli] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 15 Jul 2001 00:29:39 -0600 Andrew Hall wrote: > >> All this talk about instiutional art tells me that we should have a = poll on >> the subject of the best and worst in art sponsored by the Church. >> >> So, tell us your favorite piece(s) of instituional Mormon art, as well= as >> your least favorite(s), and why. What makes them good or bad? One of the recent BYU Studies had James Christensen's portrait of Christ = in the Garden of Gethsemane on the cover. It's--I can't think of a good adjective. Spectacular--but without the spectacle. Beautiful. = Haunting. I want a print for my living room. On July 3rd I went to the MTC with my family; my baby brother, ten years younger than me, is going to Norway. He's the fourth missionary from our family but this was the first time I've been to the big farewell thingie they do. They showed a little film with shots of different people = receiving their calls, heading off on their missions, etc. I loved it! I have no idea what the point was--maybe just to make us all feel better about = saying goodbye for two years--but what I liked was that it was real people just being filmed doing real things. It was cute. And the final shot of two missionaries trudging along into the sunset got me choked up. So I'm sentimental. So what. And the reason this mattered was because I'd recently seen a = Church-produced film that I really despised. I don't know what it's called, but it was shown at Enrichment night in June (I came in late so I missed the title). It's this "family" talking about how to behave as a family, how to treat your kids, how to discipline in love, interspersed with other "couples" = and "families" giving other anecdotes. I hated it because the subject matter was so important and the advice was so good, but the "family" was just = too attractive! I was constantly aware that these were a bunch of actors. Compare that to filming real kids opening their mission calls--okay, = sure, they knew they were being filmed, but it seemed way more natural somehow. I realize that this seems at odds with my stance on true stories not = being inherently more valuable than fictional ones. The difference in this = case was not that it was real people, but that the fictional people struck me = as so obviously...faked. And maybe it was because I'm becoming more = sensitive to the potential power of fictional stories that I was annoyed at the way this one fell short. Melissa Proffitt (back from vacation, and don't you people have anything better to do than fill up my mailbox?) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writing Group/Feedback Wanted Date: 15 Jul 2001 06:29:41 -0700 D. Michael Martindale wrote: > Or take a look below my signature and join an existing one. Thanks. I had not see that. I will consider it, although I'm probably not a candidate for it right now. One review a week is more than I can manage at present, but I will keep it in mind for the future. Rex - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Colin Douglas Subject: [AML] Inquiry: Fresh Comp at U of U Date: 14 Jul 2001 19:46:41 -0700 (PDT) [MOD: I'd like to request that anyone responding on this topic reply directly to Colin, as list volume is rather high at the moment.] I want to look into the possibility of teaching one or two sections of freshman comp at the U of U and would like to talk to someone who has taught it there recently. Anyone? Colin Douglas cbdouglas@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 16 Jul 2001 21:35:14 -0600 Darvell: >Now maybe that's Neil Labute's passion, I don't know. But it was NOT the >same >passion that I saw in _God's Army_ or _Brigham City_, but I bet it made more >money. > According to Internet Movie Database, "Your Friends and Neighbors" (the Labute film in question) grossed $4.71 million. "God's Army" grossed around $2.1 million and "BC" considerably less than that. It's worth noting, though, that "Your Friends and Neighbors" had a budget of $5 million and, what's more, is more or less forgotten now, a mere three years later. (Not like "In the Company of Men," Labute's other, more famous film.) "God's Army" made back what it cost, and was a groundbreaking film besides. Let's hear it for passion! Eric D. Snider - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] GILMORE, _Shot in the Heart_ (Deseret News) Date: 17 Jul 2001 03:31:08 -0000 Deseret News, Monday, July 16, 2001 Gilmore film has producer tiptoeing among the Mormons By Scott Pierce Deseret News television critic PASADENA, Calif. =97 Utahns may or may not be upset and/or offended by an upcoming movie about the 1976 execution of Gary Gilmore, but the executive producer of the movie certainly seems to think they will be. Which partly explains why most of "Shot in the Heart" was filmed in Baltimore. Of course, that may also be explained by the director's undisguised antipathy toward the Beehive State. Executive producer Tom Fontana has a history of working in Baltimore ("Homicide: Life on the Street"), but that's not the only reason "Shot in the Heart" traveled to Utah only to do some location work. "Well, we were actually a little nervous about how the Mormons would deal with us," Fontana said with a laugh. "So we kind of tried to sneak in and out of town as quickly as possible." As for director Agnieszka Holland, an Oscar-nominated ("Angry Harvest,"=20 "Europa, Europa") native of Poland, she unhesitatingly declared, "I'm not a big fan of Utah myself. And I love Baltimore." Her unhappiness with Utah has to do with her belief that "it's very difficult to find a drink there." "There's lots of alcohol in Baltimore," Fontana interjected. "And there's a lot of bars in Baltimore around the set," Holland added.=20 "And, discussing the project, we decided that we have to go for the booze." Hmmm. . . . Holland did travel to Salt Lake City to film the exteriors for the telefilm, based on the book by Gilmore's brother, Mikal. "Practically most of the exterior locations we shot in Utah, with great help from a local crew," she said. "And I especially appreciated that all the Teamsters were women in Utah." Hmmm . . . you can't get a drink in Utah, and all the Teamsters are women. "Shot in the Heart" is still in post-production, but there does indeed seem to be the potential that it will stir up feelings in Utah. Mikal Gilmore's book delves into the family's heritage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints, and that's apparently prominently displayed in the movie. HBO's notes on the film describe Gilmore's mother, Bessie, as a "devout Mormon" who believes in ghosts; later, Bessie and her sons receive help from "a mysterious black man" whom she believes is "one of the three Mormon Nephite angels"; one scene is described as "1857: Mormon Danites take a man from his home, lead him deep into the woods and slit his throat. The man is a sinner whose blood is being spilled as a means to his salvation." "I think especially in Mikal's book, this link to the mythology of the Mormon roots in the family is greatly important," Holland said. "And we tried to express it in some way. But, of course, I think it's a universal, human story. And it's only (a) secondary aspect to me that I had to explore a bit of the Mormon religion." "You read the book and you say, 'Wow, that could have been anyone of my family. It could have been my brothers,' " Fontana said. "Because the hurts and the unsettled scores and the bizarre secrets that families hold are there, I think, for each of us. "I mean, the whole Mormon thing, what was extraordinary for me was that it could have been Catholic, you know? In the sense of the presence of religion in his family was palpable." Hmmm. . . . E-MAIL: pierce@desnews.com =A9 2001 Deseret News Publishing Company _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] Michael O. TUNNELL, _Brothers in Valor_ Date: 16 Jul 2001 22:55:22 -0500 >I thought I'd encourage you to check out Michael O. >Tunnell's new YA novel Brothers in Valor: A Story of Resistance published >by Holiday >House in New York. It's based on the true story of three LDS boys living in >Hitler's >Germany. >on the third page of text he has already identified the >characters as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. By any chance is the book about Helmut Huebner and his friends? I recently ran across a book that was a collection of the official Nazi papers on various "criminals" who were executed for resistence activities. (Sorry I can't remember the title; it was just in a stack of books someone was getting rid of.) In his official report, one of the strikes against him was specifically that he was a member of the "Mormon movement." So, it wouldn't be surprising that the author would mention it--it means Tunnell did his homework. [MOD: This incident is also the subject of at least two plays by professors at BYU: _Heubener_, by Tom Rogers, and _Heubener against the Reich_, by--I'm not sure, Alan Keele? The Tom Rogers play, at least, deals centrally with his relationship with the Church.] Rose Green _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] Ronald WALKER et al., _Mormon History_ Date: 16 Jul 2001 21:56:29 -0700 This evening (Saturday), I picked up a great book at Borders. It's from the U. of Ill. Press, and it's called "Mormon History." Its authors are Ronald W. Walker, David J. Whittaker and James B. Allen, with an additional essay by our friend Armand Mauss. It's published by Univ. of Ill. Press, and is a bit pricey ($32.50). It documents the history of the writing and telling of Mormon history from the beginning to the present day. I read some of it at the store, and it looks just great. History buffs will certainly enjoy it. [Jeff Needle] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 17 Jul 2001 02:03:25 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > A part of the problem I have with the "sex is > good" theme is that it tends to gloss over the "sex is powerful" > reality. Including sex in your art runs the risk of overwhelming > anything else you are doing--the more explicit the more overwhelming. I'm trying to think of stories that were overwhelmed by sex appearing in them. I'm not counting stories where sex was the main theme of the story--of course those were overwhelmed by it, but on purpose. I'm trying to think of ones where the sex was not intended to overwhelm the story--as far as I can tell--but did. Randomly thinking of stories with sex in them: Orson Scott Card, Songmaster A homosexual act of sex between a homosexual character and the main character, who did it more out of compassion to the other character than anything. The scene played out on-screen, not behind closed doors. It was only as graphic as needed, and was immediately followed by a scene of unintentional violence. The violence overwhelmed the sex scene, actually, and the whole scene certainly did not overwhelm the book. Orson Scott Card, Wyrms A sex scene that can arguably be called bestiality, where the female main character has sex with the large, wormlike alien creature who constitutes the villain. She participates because of a power that is overwhelming her, not by choice. Again, the scene happens on-screen, with as much details as necessary but no more. I'll bet some of us here would call it graphic, however. This scene is the climax to the book, but does not overwhelm the rest of the book any more than it should, being a climax. In fact, I thought the whole scene of confronting the villain was a bit more anti-climactic than it should have been. Orson Scott Card, Lovelock A monkey artifically made intelligent and basically used as a pet/slave (a common thing done with animals in this future) begins to despise his supposedly loving human masters. He discovers that his sexual functioning has been tampered with, causing him to feel pain instead of pleasure, apparently as a form of birth control. In defiance, he masturbates, enduring the pain, as an act of rebellion. A strong and significant scene in the book, again shown live, that has as much impact as it should and no more. Film, The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter A lonely teenaged girl who finally makes a boyfriend ends up having sex with him in the usual unintentional way teenagers end up having sex. Before and after the sex is shown, but not the sex itself. They are bothered by it and wonder what they should do next. A touching and melancholy scene that doesn't come close to overwhelming the story. Alexei Panshin, Rite of Passage A teenage girl who has lived exclusively in space all her life starts visiting some planets. She hooks up with a boy, and things play out as expected. Pretty much the same treatment and results as the film above--nowhere near overwhelming the book. Romeo and Juliet Wedding night sex, which we pick up on the morning after. Nothing overwhelming about this. Fits into the story perfectly. See if you can guess the origin of this story... A man who barely escapes the destruction of the city he lives in with his two daughters (but not his wife, who dies), flees into a wilderness area. His daughers, believing the whole world has more or less come to an end, fear that they will never be able to bear offspring. They get their father drunk and have sex with him, because they figure that's the only way they'll ever get pregnant, since they believe no other men are alive. A strange and disturbing story of incest--did it overwhelm the book? I don't know. Was the message of the Old Testament overwhelmed by the story of Lot and his two daughters? Heck, I could go on and on. The bottom line is, sex in literature is only as overwhelming as the author chooses to let it be. A competent author, anyway. Maybe someone who doesn't know what he's doing will let the sex overwhelm the story. But I have read or viewed many sex scenes, off-camera, on-camera, hinted at, partially shown, or graphically represented. If the quality of the storytelling overall is good, I can't think of any sex scene that has overwhelmed the story any more than it should. It's no coincidence that all of the above examples I gave are from stories that I recommend. Saying we should shy away from sex because it's powerful seems like the exact wrong approach for an author. What, we want impotent stories? Yes, sex is a powerful part of the human experience. All that means is we'd better write about it. Write with skill, so we're getting the exact amount of power for our story, and not letting the power overwhelm it. I think, since sex is such a powerful part of our lives, that it's hard to fully and truthfully develop a character without letting the reader know something about that person's relationship to sex. Maybe know a lot, maybe a little, maybe just hints. But how can we utterly ignore such an integral part of a character's life? I'm still coming to the conclusion that a body of literature (not necessarily individual works within that body) that doesn't include sex is telling a lie. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 17 Jul 2001 03:10:25 -0600 Kellene Adams wrote: > I didn't think we were talking about people being portrayed as perfect. > Rather, the good writing we're talking about is not trying to portray people > as perfect but simply as people struggling with that natural man side of > them and striving to become perfect at some point (most likely in the next > life, not this one). What I'm hearing some people say (and I could very > possibly be interpreting incorrectly) is that portraying this > struggle--particularly in the realm of Mormondom--is boring. And that's > what I can't agree with. I'm also getting the feeling that some of us feel > that portraying that struggle is boring because we doubt the sincerity or > credibility of these people. Can't speak for others, but this is not what I meant. When I talk about "perfect" characters, I'm talking about ones who have "arrived" and have no struggle (nobody arrives in mortal life), or for whom the struggle is dishonestly easy to overcome, or who have no discernable weaknesses or faults. We call these characters "cardboard" or "one-dimensional." Good people struggling against challenges--honest challenges--is eminently interesting. Just don't cheat me with one-dimensional good characters, or with challenges that are too easily overcome or overcome through unbelievable means (often the same thing). Since we've beaten up on poor Jack Weyland recently, I might as well beat a little more on him, and not bloody another author. (Remember, I'm talking about a Jack from twenty years ago. I haven't read much of him recently. Maybe he's better now.) In the world of Jack Weyland, the Mormon boy meets a non-Mormon girl, and literally days later, she's taking the discussions from the missionaries. Of course she ends up baptized. This just doesn't happen in real life. This is an extreme example, but it's happened all too often in LDS literature, if more subtlely. Maybe I'm just a hopeless reprobate, but the struggles in my life don't wrap up in neat little packages. They are messy, and after being resolved, still leave messes behind that continue to plague me. Whether caused by my own sins or by circumstances beyond my control, it's the same. I don't expect literature to completely reflect the chaotic nature of life--that's part of what's so appealing about fiction: it can tidy up our view of life a little so we can make better sense of it--but it's an insult to me if the tidying goes too far. Then it simply becomes unbelievable, and that makes it boring. "Ferris Buehler" worked, not because the charmed life of the main character was believable, but because it was a satire of that kind of character--it was a farce. Realistic literature must do better. No charmed lives, please. Mad Max was a good man. He was a loving father and husband. He hated the ugly existence his job as a law enforcement officer immersed him in. When his family was killed by vicious bikers in a post-apocalyptic Australia, he became dead to the world, a loner who wandered aimlessly. But his goodness kept coming out. When he tried to be calloused toward others, he still ended up caring for their well-being. When he found a paradise in the midst of desolation where he could have lived his life in comfort, he forsook that paradise to save the lives of some foolish children. He was always putting his own life at risk for the benefit of others, and always sacrificing a better future for himself so others could have one. Mad Max is a fascinating character. But only because he's well-rounded. Acting tough, always wanting to wash his hands of humanity, but never able to deny his true good self. The second Mad Max film was the best of three. The plot never lets up on Max. Whenever things seem to be going his way, all hell breaks loose and destroys any hope he may have had. I can still remember the thrilling shock I felt as I watched that movie for the first time. It was so refreshing to see a hero that lived the antithesis of a charmed life. Mad Max's struggles were never easy to overcome. Jack Weyland's Charly doesn't hold a candle to that in fascination. Even less so the male protagonist in that story, so forgettable that I don't even remember his name. It's really all just a question of good characterization, not this bandying about of moral issues we've been doing in this thread. The facts are, no one is perfect. The best of us have some faults. Everyone has struggles to deal with. Those struggles don't resolve into tidy little packages wrapped up in a bow. So our fiction should reflect this. If fictional people seem too good to be true, or if struggles are resolves too easily, or too tidily, they ring false. That's all. And every individual reader will have their own idea when the ringing starts sounding false. So here's the simple, tidy, wrapped-in-a-bow solution: everybody write about whatever characters they want to write about, and everybody else leave them alone to do it. By the law of averages, all kinds of characters will be written about. Now is that so hard? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Julie Kirk Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 17 Jul 2001 07:25:40 -0700 Since I am still at CSU Fullerton working on my MFA and teaching life drawing there, I hear this question all the time. Frankly, (in my humble opinion- ha ha) it is way over talked about in the art world and reeks of the snobbish attitude in art that alienated a majority of the populace from the "art world" in the 70's and 80's. I think the problem here is that it is subjective, so subjective it is beyond our being able to come up with a definition of art vs. illustration. For me, if the art reaches a level of a couple considerations, then it is worth looking at - who am I to figure out what the intentions are with the person who made it? I tend to think, after visiting many gallery openings and museuems, and having a few of my own, then listening to young art students argue these philosophies in school, that the viewing audience is the one with the "I know all and am omnipotent" complex, and the artist is the poor slob who puts his efforts out there on the line to be crucified. All I look for is real emotional intent and a level of use of technique that shows mastery and real involvement on the part of the artist. At that point I decide that I'll look at the paintings some more, but I sure wouldn't want to catagorize them illustration or art. On the subject of Dali vs. Minerva Teichert - I'm pretty familiar with both for various reasons and, other than a handful of paintings, don't really think too much about the rest of the work. I am quite interested though in Teichert's life and philosophies and they have had a huge impact on my own - to me that is the real contribution she made to art. Of course, if I were to chalk her or Dali or anyone else up to being illustrators, not artists, then I might not have found that connection, so maybe what we need to do is not worry so much about the catagory and instead look for the value. Julie ********************************************* Mothers of teens know why animals eat their young. Julie Kirk http://juliekirk.com http://www.streetpainting.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 17 Jul 2001 09:01:18 -0600 Darvell wrote: >It's kind of like this: it's better to have sex with someone whom you = love >as opposed >to doing it in a hotel for money. It's basically the same act, but the >intent and >the rewards are so much different. Writing for the love of writing is so >much better than >prostitution writing. But with the writing market of today, even the LDS >market, prostitution >writing is what sells. and if you want to sell, you have to write what = the >masses want. I understand what Darvell is saying here, but it's a false dichotomy, I = think. I've accepted commissions on occasion, and what I've found is that = I pretty quickly become enormously passionate about a work I'm being paid = to do. And while I won't say that you don't compromise your standards, = you do end up fighting pretty passionately with the client about words you = care about enormously. It isn't at all like prostitution. It's a lot = more like an arranged marriage. =20 I have an ancestor who joined the Church when she was fourteen. Her = parents kicked her out, so she moved in with her married sister, who had = previously joined. Her sister died in childbirth, leaving my ancestor = alone in a house with her brother-in-law and 4 small nieces and nephews. = She married the brother-in-law, became pregnant, and then he died. So = there she was, in Nauvoo, age 16, with five small children to care for. = At that point, it was off to Winter Quarters. En route, she became the = plural wife of Stephen Markham, a fairly prosperous man who is a minor = footnote in LDS history. Now, when she married Stephen, she was 16, he = was 59. How much in love were they? How much was this a marriage of = convenience? And yet they lived together for another 30 years, and I = suspect grew to love each other very much indeed. (Unfortunately, we = haven't a journal from either of them, but we do have other accounts of = their marriage, and it was a happy one.) (Come to think of it, I should = write about her sometime. That's a pretty great story, come to think of = it.) Well, that's commercial writing, I think. You end up falling in love with = the work every bit as much as if you'd thought of it yourself. >I think it might be helpful here to compare Richard Dutcher to Neil = >Labute. >I >recently saw that _Your Friends and Neighbors_ by Neli Labute was on >my >satellite dish, so I decided to see what all of the commotion was about. = I >watched about five minutes of the beginning and changed the channel. I >didn't like it. I occasionally swtiched back to see if I had missed >something, >and I still didn't like it. It wasn't an LDS story and wasn't something >that I >considered appropriate for me to view, and I'm pretty liberal when it = >comes >to viewing movies. >Now maybe that's Neil Labute's passion, I don't know. But it was NOT >the >same >passion that I saw in _God's Army_ or _Brigham City_, but I bet it made = >more >money. Friends and Neighbors, which is based on Neil's play Lepers, is very much = a work of passion, absolutely. I have no way of knowing whether it was = exactly the same passion that prompted Richard to make God's Army, but I = know both men pretty well, and I can't tell a difference between their = respective passions. Neil likes darker subjects than Richard likes. = That's the main difference between them. I also suspect that God's Army = made more money than Friends and Neighbors. They were in the same = ballpark, at least. Friends and Neighbors was a small art-house film, low = budget, aimed at a film-lovers audience. =20 >Did Labute write and direct that movie for himself or for the movie = >>viewers >"of >the world?" (I personally cannot say, but I have my opinion.) Nei wrote Friends and Neighbors in an effort to expose the petty vanities = and betrayals and cruelties and brutalities people inflict on each other, = and the rationalizations we employ, while pursuing sex. It's a film that = asks us to examine our own behavior in relation to the behavior of = characters who, although articulate and successful, are essentially = shallow and pleasure seeking. Friends and Neighbors is far too ugly a = film to have been intended for any kind of popular audience. Compare its = treatment of sexuality and the highly romantized (and wholly phony) = treatment of sexuality in Pearl Harbor. =20 You clearly disliked Friends and Neighbors and clearly liked God's Army = and Brigham City. I like all three films (and also Neil's In the Company = of Men, which we may as well include for the sake of symmetry). But I = don't perceive any essential difference between them. They're all = passionate films, made by committed LDS filmmakers, trying to do good in = the world. Neil's films are dark, and Richard's are kinda quiet, with = somewhat nicer characters. That's about it.=20 Look, I want to write about subjects I'm passionate about, and I also want = to make some money at it, especially this week, with my sprinkler system = shot. Those desires are not mutually exclusive. I wish I could write a = Work and the Glory. I wish I could write a Pearl Harbor, or a Frazier, or = a Grisham thriller. I can't write any of those things, not because I'm = too committed to my art or anything, but because I haven't a gift for any = of them. I wish I had a really lucrative commission right now. I'd do a = darn good job with it, if I had one, I think and hope. I also wish = something I've written would go mainstream. Some people's talents lend = themselves to writing stuff that's really popular. It'd be great if I = could be one of those rare folks who could write stuff that's fabulously = good AND popular (Elmore Leonard comes to mind; my idol.) Meantime, I = (we) keep on truckin'.=20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Re: Artists vs. Illustrators (was: Andrew's Poll: Church-Sponsored Art) Date: 17 Jul 2001 09:26:18 -0600 OmahaMom@aol.com wrote: > > If Christensen is the one who did the Parable of the Ten Virgins, he didn't > do his homework very well. Although the people look exotic & Eastern, most > of the peoples in the Middle East wouldn't have had a pig in their midst. > Certainly the women that the Savior told about waiting for the Bridegroom > wouldn't have had a pig with them. Pork is considered unclean for food, as > an animal needs to have a cloven hoof AND chew its cud to be considered > acceptable. Moslems won't touch pork either. Christensen wasn't creating a realistic portrayal of the parable, but an impression. That's the difference between art and illustration. Anyone with good technical skills can create a realistic and accurate portrayal of reality, but it takes an artist to add that indefinable something that takes the work to a higher level. Carl Bloch is a religious artist who, while portraying realistic images, creates religious "moments" through the use of color, light, and the way he arranges images on the canvas. Harry Anderson is a religious illustrator who creates great looking and realistic portrayals of people but without Bloch's "feeling." I don't know any other way to explain it. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 17 Jul 2001 09:24:17 -0600 Jacob wrote: >In general, I tend to agree with you, Eric, though from an entirely >different perspective. But I think that this paragraph is the point >where we differ most. I think the key here is the phrase "intending to >do evil in the world". What does that mean? The problem is in defining >evil. If you let everyone define evil for themselves, then it is >impossible for anyone to ever intend to do evil. =20 Oh, sure, that's obviously true. It's just that I'm an absolute knee-jerk = art defender, no matter what. I just think that art is the sublimest = thing about being a human being, the single most important gift God ever = gave us. I love all of it. That doesn't mean that I love all art works = equally; obviously I don't. But I love the work of artists, I love the = fact that they're working, even if what they end up doing is something I = don't care for. Anytime anyone attacks any artist, for whatever reason, = my immediate impulse is to defend the artist, to find what's good in their = work. It's just a reflex. Same as true of all books, indiscriminately. = So in Sunday School, when we have a lesson on the School of the Prophets, = it just bugs the heck out of me when someone so much as suggests that = there are books we shouldn't read. I find that inconceivable at a = fundamental visceral level. I'm a book worshipper. (God exists because = books exist; He really IS The Word). It is simply not possible for me to = conceive of the existance of books I shouldn't read. =20 That's a naive and ultimately indefensible position, I realize (in my = saner moments). Of course I'm aware that the butchers of Auschwitz = relaxed in the evening with Beethoven string quartets. I'm aware that = there exists such a thing as child pornography. But child pornography = isn't in my frame of reference. Since it's not something I ever encounter,= and since this conversation, on the List, is between people who aren't = engaged in it, I tend to discount it. >But if you define evil >even so loosely as "actively harms another for personal gain" then I >think that there are artists who intend to do evil in the world. Some >"artists" really do think "by providing the vile images some people >crave, I can get money". =20 Yes, quite so. I guess I put 'pornography' in a different category than = 'art.' But there are surely pornographers who don't. And I do know that = there are a great many pornographers who defend their work quite articulate= ly. I don't defend their work, and am as inclined as you are to see = rationalization abounding. But even for pornographers, I'm uncomfortably = aware that a) they defend it, and think they're doing good in the world = and b) some people who consume their product also testify that good has = been done. =20 >How about that Neil Labute play you enjoyed in >England? Did the artist character intend to do evil? I think she knew >that she was actively harming the young man for no other purpose than >her selfish project. =20 Well, yeah. But then she defends it pretty articulately. What's so = disturbing (and good) about Neil's play is that he defends the work of = someone he clearly detests, and defends her work with some genuine = insight. >I think that she was evil, but that she didn't >care. I think the existence of evil art is an important question and >one that we had better be very careful about tossing a negative at too >carelessly. Okay. Sure. But please, let's err on the side of charity. Let's assume = good will until such an assumption becomes absolutely untenable. And = remember that some of us think dark harsh ugly art is the very best kind. >How else do you explain the disconnect with >network executives who release press statements that "of *course* our >album/sit com/movie couldn't motivate a youngster to do evil--where >*are* his/her parents, anyway?" and then spend the rest of their career >convincing other businesses to give them lots of money so that they can >motivate youngsters to buy products with his album/sit com/movie? Or is >it just businessmen who actually intend to do evil in the world? Of course a more convincing stance would be 'we never intended anything = like this to happen, and are appalled that our album/sitcom/movie prompted = this.' I mean, did the Beatles ever, for a moment, think that the White = Album would inspire Charles Manson to commit mass murder? Of course not. = And in fact, they're right. Manson killed because he was an evil, = power-seeking nut, who happened to find in some pretty wonderful song = lyrics a rationale for doing something he wanted to do anyway. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: [AML] Nauvoo Temple Date: 17 Jul 2001 10:05:15 -0600 You can follow the progress made on building the Nauvoo temple at: http://deseretbook.com/nauvoo/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 17 Jul 2001 17:53:14 -0000 > > To me, Greg Olsen is an illustrator, not an artist. > > > > It's not all that subtle a difference, in my opinion. An artist may >paint >a > > picture of Christ but it won't be Christ sitting on a rock, looking at > > Jerusalem. The artist is likely to show us an interpretation of Christ >we've > > never seen before. I think of Salvador Dali and his clean-shaven Christ >hanging > > magnetically to a cross both of them hovering over the globe of the >earth. >That, > > to me, is an artist's representation of Christ. > > > I'm sure Greg Olsen considers himself and artist. As do I. I feel the spirit whenever I look at that picture of Christ sitting over Jerusalem. It makes me think. It's not just a cardboard picture of Christ, it's a picture of him looking down on the city of Jerusalem, with heartache and real emotion, and it makes me think about what must be going through his mind. I also enjoy the `illustration' of the little girl praying before she goes to sleep. I find it moving. The detail is wonderful. I have that painting hanging over my little girl's bed, she loves it! It helps her remember to pray before she goes to sleep at night. It also shows her that she doesn't need me to sit next to her and tell her word for word what to say. I hope Greg Olsen continues with his work. I would fill my home with it. -Tami [Miller] _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Church-Sponsored Art Date: 17 Jul 2001 12:49:14 -0600 > If Christensen is the one who did the Parable of the Ten Virgins, he didn't > do his homework very well. Although the people look exotic & Eastern, most > of the peoples in the Middle East wouldn't have had a pig in their midst. > Certainly the women that the Savior told about waiting for the Bridegroom > wouldn't have had a pig with them. Pork is considered unclean for food, as > an animal needs to have a cloven hoof AND chew its cud to be considered > acceptable. Moslems won't touch pork either. About 14 years ago I heard the artist, a woman whose name I can't remember, talk about this painting. The pig, being carried by one of the unwise virgins, was put in the painting specifically to show her uncleanness. Each of the virgins characterized a virtue or vice (vanity, satanism, gluttony--I can't remember much more than this after so much time). Harking back to another thread, that fireside was the first time I'd heard an artist say that she'd been told later about symbolism she hadn't consciously put in her art. Again, I can't give more specifics about this, but I know she printed up a sheet listing some of the symbolism she'd used that was available with the purchase of copies of the painting. Debbie Wager - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: Re: [AML] Steed Family Date: 17 Jul 2001 12:49:38 -0600 > Orson Scott Card said that some people thought the stories he invented for > the Living Sciptures tapes were themselves scriptures. He said that those > people needed to actually read the scriptures themselves so they'd know > what was and wasn't in there. Several years ago I taught a primary class (8-year-olds?) in which we talked about the story of Nephi and his brothers building the boat, and the kids' version of the story included, "and then Laman picked up the tool and said..." or something like that. That's when I started making sure the stories were read from the scriptures in class. Debbie Wager - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rich Hammett Subject: [AML] Re: Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 17 Jul 2001 15:49:37 -0500 (CDT) On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, D. Michael Martindale wrote: [snip] > Since we've beaten up on poor Jack Weyland recently, I might as well > beat a little more on him, and not bloody another author. (Remember, I'm > talking about a Jack from twenty years ago. I haven't read much of him > recently. Maybe he's better now.) In the world of Jack Weyland, the > Mormon boy meets a non-Mormon girl, and literally days later, she's > taking the discussions from the missionaries. Of course she ends up > baptized. This just doesn't happen in real life. [snip] Actually, this happened to me three times, once before my mission and twice afterwards. The third one I got to keep. She was also the only person I've ever baptized. (Finland was kind of a dry mission.) While I like to think of myself as far more cynical than everybody, for my life, at least, this plot is quite realistic. BTW, did anyone ever come up with documentation on the "no fiction in church mags" policy? My returned missionary e-mail list thinks that I made the whole thing up. rich -- Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett rhammett@hiwaay.net The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. --GBS - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 17 Jul 2001 01:36:53 -0600 Darvell Hunt wrote: >It's kind of like this: it's better to have sex with someone whom you love >as opposed to doing it in a hotel for money. It's basically the same >act, but the intent and the rewards are so much different. Theoretically, painting a house and painting a canvas are also basically the same act, but I'm not ready to honor Shermann Williams in the same breath as Rembrandt. Similarly, I'm not sure it's fair to equate writing to a paying audience with prostitution. If it is, then anyone who gets paid a wage for anything--be it writing, manufacturing, knowledge working, or performing--is just a different form of prostitute. In each case, you sell your passion or talent for money. You seem to be saying that one must either write for money or for love, but I simply disagree with the premise. Every choice a writer makes is a trade-off of one thing for something else, and I'm not sure anyone is qualified to look at another's work and declare this work to be a prostitution and that one to be a good and worthy offering. It's a logical dichotomy that makes no sense to me. I write for money and for love. I take the challenge of crafting stories that have both market appeal and that satisfy my own esthetic as the ultimate expression of art. Merely writing what's in your head is not art, in my opinion, and should never be confused for it. Art is work and technique and careful effort combined with enough trust of oneself to follow where a story leads and take chances on both technique and content. This basic discussion goes around often in pretty much every literary forum--LDS or otherwise--and people argue passionately on both sides of the issue. I went to a World Science Fiction Convention in 1996 and listened to some of the best editors in the business scream at each other for several hours about this same question. It's fundamental to how each writer approaches their work, and is an issue that will probably not be resolved by our little discussion. I won't argue that there aren't literary prostitutes, because we all know that there are. But to equate commercially successful writing with necessary corruption in the heart of the writer is a judgement that I consider neither accurate nor useful. And I'm certainly not prepared to name stories written only for oneself as the epitome of art. Some may be art. But art that seeks only to to tickle the fancy of the author is just another form of self-gratification that makes the author feel good but does nothing to build up the greater community. To me, art is that which goes out to the public and attempts to illuminate or expand the understanding of all the world. Until we cast our bread upon the waters, we cannot claim the title of artist; we remain dabblers. (If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear, is it Art?). We are each responsible to our own muse. If we betray our own esthetic, then shame on us for failing to be true even to ourselves. But to measure the work of others against a rule devised for one's own work is to do a grave disservice to the entire community, in my opinion. >Writing for the love of writing is so much better than prostitution >writing. But with the writing market of today, even the LDS market, >prostitution writing is what sells. and if you want to sell, you >have to write what the masses want. We agree on one point--if you want to sell, you must reach an audience other than yourself. If you want to reach a larger audience, you must choose how to present your story in such a way that it can appeal to widely different kinds of people. Perhaps that means simplification, but I think that's the easy way out. The best books both challenge and edify the reader rather than just pandering to broad appeal. I still think the highest expression of art is to produce work of value that reaches a broad audience. I just can't see quality and success as exclusive choices. >I think it might be helpful here to compare Richard Dutcher to Neil Labute. >I recently saw that _Your Friends and Neighbors_ by Neli Labute was on my >satellite dish, so I decided to see what all of the commotion was about. I >watched about five minutes of the beginning and changed the channel. I >didn't like it. I occasionally swtiched back to see if I had missed >something, and I still didn't like it. It wasn't an LDS story and >wasn't something that I considered appropriate for me to view, and >I'm pretty liberal when it comes to viewing movies. > >Now maybe that's Neil Labute's passion, I don't know. But it was NOT the >same passion that I saw in _God's Army_ or _Brigham City_, but I bet >it made more money. And if neither GA nor BC had made money, I can pretty much guarantee that we wouldn't be hearing about Dutcher's upcoming film on the life of the prophet Joseph Smith. If he doesn't make money at that, we may never hear from him again. Financial success means that the story reaches a larger audience. Getting a good message out to a large audience is always better, in my opinion, than getting it out to a small one. It's up to the author to get that message in there in either case, and is what separates good artists from merely ordinary ones, IMO. Whether I like Neil Labute's work or not, I can see little or no evidence that he's sold out at any point. He has consistently produced work that is intended to offend a great many people, and that has largely limited his broader appeal. From where I sit, he has been remarkably consistent despite the pressures he's received from all sides. I think that says much about where his passion lies, and suggests to me that he has remained true to his own passion. Every viewer has the right to dislike anything. But conflating personal dislike with righteous judgement and dismissal of a work's value is a step I'm not ready to take. >Did Labute write and direct that movie for himself or for the movie viewers >"of the world?" (I personally cannot say, but I have my opinion.) See comments above. If he was aiming for "the world" then I think he missed by a lot. Despite the critical buzz, he's not selling millions of copies. >Look at it this way: If Steve Young had gone to San Francisco and changed >who he was by living the life of a famous football player and forgetting >this LDS ideals, would he have "sold us old?" Steve remained true to who he >was and let everybody know who he was. He was both an LDS icon AND an >American icon, not just an American one. He played on Sundays. Sounds like a sellout to me. He wanted the money and the fame more than he wanted to keep the Sabbath holy. He's taught an entire generation of young Mormons that it's okay to break the Sabbath as long as you're really good at it, a lot of people like you, you get good ratings, and you talk about being Mormon now and again. (He's also made a great deal more money than Neil Labute.) Oddly, we rarely hear about the LDS players who choose not to enter the NFL because of Sunday play (there was a great BYU lineman here a couple of years ago who was drafted by the Raiders but refused to play; it got one three-minute segment on local TV and no national coverage at all). These non-players quite arguably demand more of our religious respect than Steve Young does. Or do they? Perhaps, each stayed true to their own passion and were honest to their own muse. If we want to judge muses then I think Steve loses out on this one, because I believe the most moral choice would have been to stay home on Sunday. Sadly, I have never been faced with that choice, and even if I had it wouldn't do me any good to judge Steve Young--my moral choices are between my god and myself. I think Steve Young is a good man, and worthy of our respect and admiration. But his situation does illustrate how personal taste can undermine our critical response and make us blind to the flaws in one artist that we condemn vigorously in another. >One thing that I dislike very much is when people explain what I said, >basically inerpreting my words to mean something else than what I meant. But that's the way the game is played. When you put your words out to an audience, you run the risk of being misinterpreted. That's part and parcel with writing fiction--everyone has their own opinions, the right to state them publicly, and the real likelihood that they will interpret meanings out of your work that you never intended. That's half of what fuels the discussion on this list, and most of the critical community. The only way to avoid being misinterpreted is not to play the game. We can console ourselves that the audience is artistically or intellectually bereft, but the simple fact is that reasonable people can and do disagree. Discussing how and why we disagree is a powerful tool in helping each of us understand how others of us feel. A forum like this one often generates responses that have little to do with the original post. Sometimes people read something and it causes them to think about something else and to argue that new point (your Lehi Free Press tale seems to bear that out). I know I do that quite a bit. If you feel that I've misrepresented your thoughts, I apologize; it was not my intent to put words in your mouth. But your thoughts did spark me to join conversation with Michael on a related topic. Your words helped me to think about an issue and publish my own thoughts to our little corner of the world, and I don't see how that's bad. >Now I suppose that some of that is my fault and wouldn't happen if I had been >completely clear in the first place, but you can't always write so >that everyone with a different point of view and a different >experience can understand. Be careful of conflating understanding with agreement. I understand a great many things that I don't agree with (like the Eucharist and the doctrine of the Holy Trinity). Whether I understand what you intended to say is a mystery that may never be solved, because neither one of us can climb into the other's head and verify our hypothesis. At some point we just smile and nod and walk away and trust that our words stand on their own. Walking happily away.... Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: RE: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 17 Jul 2001 15:56:16 -0500 At 10:24 AM 7/17/01, Eric Samuelsen wrote: >I just think that art is the sublimest thing about being a human being, >the single most important gift God ever gave us. I love all of it. Oh. When I first glanced at this sentence, I thought we were still talking about sex . . . -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 17 Jul 2001 15:47:37 -0600 On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 03:10:25 -0600, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >Since we've beaten up on poor Jack Weyland recently, I might as well >beat a little more on him, and not bloody another author. (Remember, I'm >talking about a Jack from twenty years ago. I haven't read much of him >recently. Maybe he's better now.) In the world of Jack Weyland, the >Mormon boy meets a non-Mormon girl, and literally days later, she's >taking the discussions from the missionaries. Of course she ends up >baptized. This just doesn't happen in real life. Meaning, it doesn't happen in your life? Or it does happen in real life, but when Weyland writes about it, he doesn't make it believable to you as= a reader? I agree with the point I didn't quote (that good people = struggling against challenges is very interesting) but I don't think this example supports the premise. The reason this sample Jack Weyland plot seems unbelievable is not the basic facts--because this sort of thing does happen--but the way he presents it as though it is ALWAYS the way things happen. If you know that not everyone who investigates the Church is converted immediately (or at all) then of course it's unbelievable. But this veers away from the topic of writing about idealized characters (a = term I prefer to the ambiguous "good") into the purpose of Weyland's writing, = and I don't want to go there. I read this paragraph of your post and started laughing uncontrollably because just yesterday I had heard the real-life story of this happening = to not one, but two people. The short version is they were living together, decided to break up but had to stay in the apartment together, and the = girl got a new boyfriend. Boyfriend is Mormon. Girl takes discussions. Girl decides to get baptized and they're going to wait a year to be married in the temple. Ex-boyfriend has been around for the discussions (because they're in the same apartment, naturally). Ex gets interested. Ex goes = to the missionaries' apartment, leaves a note asking "so how do I sign up?" = and arranges to be taught all six discussions in one day because he doesn't = have a lot of time off. (The part I found really amazing was that the two of them decided to go on one last fling--they are, or were, pretty heavy drinkers--before the girl got baptized. Neither of them could finish a single beer. That's the kind of detail I tend to think of as soppy, but again, it actually did happen. Who knows why.) =46iction is way more limited than real life when it comes to = unbelievable events. The long version, by the way, would make a really great novel. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Ronald WALKER et al., _Mormon History_ Date: 17 Jul 2001 16:07:23 -0600 Jeff Needle wrote: > This evening (Saturday), I picked up a great book at Borders. It's from the > U. of Ill. Press, and it's called "Mormon History." Its authors are Ronald > W. Walker, David J. Whittaker and James B. Allen, with an additional essay > by our friend Armand Mauss. It's published by Univ. of Ill. Press, and is a > bit pricey ($32.50). I was Ronald Walker's research assistant back in my undergrad days at BYU. I spent hours and hours squinting at copies of early 19th century American newspapers on microfiche for him, searching for references to salamanders and such. Despite the fact that he was duped by Hoffman (he was convinced that the so-called Salamander Letter was authentic), he's a fine historian--and a good man to boot! Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 17 Jul 2001 15:36:37 -0600 ---Original Message From: Eric R. Samuelsen > > So in Sunday School, when we have a lesson > on the School of the Prophets, it just bugs the heck out of > me when someone so much as suggests that there are books we > shouldn't read. I find that inconceivable at a fundamental > visceral level. I'm a book worshipper. (God exists because > books exist; He really IS The Word). It is simply not > possible for me to conceive of the existance of books I > shouldn't read. Well, I think there is an interesting line here. Personally, there are books I shouldn't read just like there are movies I shouldn't see. The reasons for the "shouldn't" are personal and not really subject to exterior control. This is not a determination that I make lightly, and it is very important to note that the "shouldn't" is due to recognition of my own personal weaknesses. I think it is important to be aware of our weaknesses and to work to strengthen them. If you know that a vessel is flawed, then it is important to eliminate the flaw before you apply pressure to it. That same principal is at work in a wider context as well. There are flaws in society that need to be strengthened or eliminated before certain things are made available. Look at the damage done to the Nephites when they find the records holding the keys to secret combinations. Availability of those records took the already existing flaw of greed and eventually broke the entire Nephite society. Joseph Smith made essentially the same determination when he shut down the Nauvoo Expositor. It is a determination that should not be made lightly, but it is very important to recognize our weaknesses and work to strengthen them. > That's a naive and ultimately indefensible position, I > realize (in my saner moments). Of course I'm aware that the > butchers of Auschwitz relaxed in the evening with Beethoven > string quartets. I'm aware that there exists such a thing as > child pornography. But child pornography isn't in my frame > of reference. Since it's not something I ever encounter, and > since this conversation, on the List, is between people who > aren't engaged in it, I tend to discount it. Right. My point is that it shouldn't be discounted because it is proof that evil exist, and that it hides and needs to be exposed and suppressed. We aren't safe if we make the automatic assumption that evil isn't present in art. Evil will encroach if we let it and we need to make sure that it remains something that is outside our frame of reference. > And I do know that there are a great many > pornographers who defend their work quite articulately. I > don't defend their work, and am as inclined as you are to see > rationalization abounding. But even for pornographers, I'm > uncomfortably aware that a) they defend it, and think they're > doing good in the world and b) some people who consume their > product also testify that good has been done. Yes. Exactly. And we should *not* accept their defense at face value just because they have the gall to make it. Just because someone will defend evil does not mean it is not evil. That is my entire point and why I initially replied to your post. > >How about that Neil Labute play you enjoyed in > >England? Did the artist character intend to do evil? I > think she knew > >that she was actively harming the young man for no other > purpose than > >her selfish project. > > Well, yeah. But then she defends it pretty articulately. > What's so disturbing (and good) about Neil's play is that he > defends the work of someone he clearly detests, and defends > her work with some genuine insight. I wish I could see the play. One of the problems with theater is how hard it is to distribute. It's kinda hard for me to book over to London to check it out. If it makes it to Salt Lake, it'll be a wholly different production. Oh, and it'll be expensive (because theater is always expensive for the same reasons it is hard to distribute). > >I think that she was evil, but that she didn't > >care. I think the existence of evil art is an important > question and > >one that we had better be very careful about tossing a > negative at too > >carelessly. > > Okay. Sure. But please, let's err on the side of charity. > Let's assume good will until such an assumption becomes > absolutely untenable. And remember that some of us think > dark harsh ugly art is the very best kind. Sure. I don't object to dark and ugly art existing. I'm just impatient with extending it privileges just because it is dark and ugly. And I find I'm not much interested in it if it is pointless. > >How else do you explain the disconnect with > >network executives who release press statements that "of > *course* our > >album/sit com/movie couldn't motivate a youngster to do evil--where > >*are* his/her parents, anyway?" and then spend the rest of > their career > >convincing other businesses to give them lots of money so > that they can > >motivate youngsters to buy products with his album/sit > com/movie? Or > >is it just businessmen who actually intend to do evil in the world? > > Of course a more convincing stance would be 'we never > intended anything like this to happen, and are appalled that > our album/sitcom/movie prompted this.' Yes. If they made that argument, I'd be willing to cut them some slack. It is the lying I detest and I suspect that the lie hides guilt. i.e. I think that they know that some of the stuff they produce is harmful but defend it because it is profitable. They shouldn't cave to every nut with an opinion (some people object to the Simpsons and Daria for heavens sake), but they *should* be applying some judgment other than profitability to their products. I would respect them a whole lot more if they would articulate production criteria, even one I disagree with. Doing so would harm their bottom line for a number of reasons (the cost of articulating, evaluating and applying criteria and the cost of rejecting profitable products) so they don't. In economic terms, it is a case of providing a public good with private cost. But then, most public morality is... Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 17 Jul 2001 16:14:58 -0600 D. Michael Martindale writes: [...] >I'm trying to think of stories that were overwhelmed by sex >appearing in them. [...] >Randomly thinking of stories with sex in them: [...] >Orson Scott Card, Songmaster [...] >Orson Scott Card, Wyrms [...] >Orson Scott Card, Lovelock Since you mentioned 3 stories by Card, I thought you might be interested in related comments Card made several years ago about "NYPD Blue": "It must be said: Never, not once, has any of the nudity been remotely important to the storyline. Never, not once, has it been anything other than the series- creator's adolescent need to say nanner-nanner, I got away with it. Stories are not advanced by nudity, they are broken up by it, as the audience stops thinking about what happens next and is either attracted to or repelled by or shocked about or simply distracted by somebody's breast or butt. I can't wait to see what this brilliant creative mind can accomplish when he finally grows up." (See "http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/reviews96/tv_dramas.shtml".) Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Two Prophets on Novel Reading Date: 17 Jul 2001 15:49:35 -0600 Ok but all they say is that you shouldn't read to much. Now tell me what is to much. Mind you that would be relative. What is to much for one person may be barely any at all to another. Case in point my husband and I. He thinks I read novels to much and I feel like I rarely get to read. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 17 Jul 2001 15:31:28 -0700 (PDT) --- "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > If fictional people seem too good to be true, or if > struggles are > resolved too easily, or too tidily, they ring false. > That's all. And > every individual reader will have their own idea > when the ringing starts > sounding false. > This is an important point. It's also why I like it when I find more than one book review of a particular title on the AML Web site as well as the e-mail discussions about responses to specific books (the one about _Expecting Adam_ comes to mind). Being exposed to the multiple points of view helps me to not confuse responses to works of literature with level of Saint-li-ness (or whatever one wants to call it). In other words, it helps me understand that my point of view is not the only viable one for a faithful Latter-day Saint. So this is not really a response to D. Michael, but a riff off of his metaphor: The fact that other Mormon readers have different threshholds (i.e. for where a work rings false) from our own doesn't mean that we should tune them out, but rather is a cause for continual dialogue. I can imagine some folks (i.e. myself) getting fatigued and desiring to retreat into a world where the only voices are their own and those in sympathy with their own. That is tempting. It's also selfish, or at least seems so to me at this stage in my life. Which leads me to this: > So here's the simple, tidy, wrapped-in-a-bow > solution: everybody write > about whatever characters they want to write about, > and everybody else > leave them alone to do it. By the law of averages, > all kinds of > characters will be written about. Now is that so > hard? I don't dispute this solution. Yes, plurality and diversity and non-harassment in Mormon writers and writing. Authors need to have their individual space in which to create their works---and we all know that, for various reasons, it is sometimes hard as Mormons for us to find and maintain that space. But let's not leave each other alone (again, not disputing what D. Michael has written, but kind of reinscribing it because that's how my mind tends to work---tangentially, metonymically). Even if we sometimes are dogmatic or overstate or simplify things or make false dichotomies, let's continue the vigorous discussion and let's enlarge it. I don't really have any authority to make this kind of call, and I don't necessarily see a major need for it, because it seems to me like the list and even the broader world of Mormon culture is quite alive and engaged, but I'm a natural worrier (and an observer of how certain academic discussions have broken down or sputtered out) and I wanted an un-gushy way to say: This is all quite spectacular, the fact that the voices on this list come together in a forum like this. What pulled me out of my two-year lurk [A shout out to all those AML-mag folks out there] was not some outragous statement that I simply had to respond to, but rather the no-longer-fightable desire to enter into a community as rich, diverse and vibrant as this one. Cheers to all. ~~William Morris, who is now going to go look for a healthy dose of cynicism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Stringer Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 17 Jul 2001 15:53:24 -0600 D. Michael wrote: > Orson Scott Card, Wyrms > A sex scene that can arguably be called bestiality, where the female > main character has sex with the large, wormlike alien creature who > constitutes the villain. She participates because of a power that is > overwhelming her, not by choice. Again, the scene happens on-screen, > with as much details as necessary but no more. I'll bet some of us here > would call it graphic, however. This scene is the climax to the book, > but does not overwhelm the rest of the book any more than it should, > being a climax. In fact, I thought the whole scene of confronting the > villain was a bit more anti-climactic than it should have been. This is the *only* thing I remember vividly from reading Wyrms and after this I begged off Card's writings for several years. I found it to be quite overwhelming for me at the time and as noted I cannot really remember any of the rest of the book. (What was it all about anyway?) A subjective or objective case? It is up to each of us for our own interpretation. I am certainly glad however that after a hiatus of 6 years from the time I read this book - this being my first brush with OSC that I read the Ender series next (and am still reading it as he is still writing it.) > Heck, I could go on and on. The bottom line is, sex in literature is > only as overwhelming as the author chooses to let it be. A competent > author, anyway. Maybe someone who doesn't know what he's doing will let > the sex overwhelm the story. Indeed, however "bestselling" author does not *always* mean the same as *competent* author. The same author may also write a sex scene skillfully and competently and then in another work the very same author muffs it royally. I for one really enjoyed Stegner's _Crossing to Safety_ far more than I enjoying his _Recapitulation_ It is the same author, same basic writing style, same premise, looking back over a life, yet one novel is *in my opinion* done much better than the other. I feel that Stegner is quite possibly one of the more competent writers in that lived in the 20th Century. The sex in both these books is skillfully done, one is just better than the other. Again, subjective or objective? Each must make their own judgment for themselves. Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 17 Jul 2001 17:09:33 -0600 ---Original Message From: D. Michael Martindale > Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > > A part of the problem I have with the "sex is > > good" theme is that it tends to gloss over the "sex is powerful" > > reality. Including sex in your art runs the risk of overwhelming > > anything else you are doing--the more explicit the more > overwhelming. > > I'm trying to think of stories that were overwhelmed by sex > appearing in them. I'm not counting stories where sex was the > main theme of the story--of course those were overwhelmed by > it, but on purpose. I'm trying to think of ones where the sex > was not intended to overwhelm the story--as far as I can > tell--but did. Sex is powerful. Most of our current society is built around denying this fact. A lot of art offends my sense of reality because it denies this fact. Any work that doesn't want to throw me out of its story will have to deal with sex as a powerful force. In other words, you won't be able to convince me just by providing examples of stories that don't think that sex is powerful. I find that those stories are fundamentally flawed for the very reason of how they treat sex. It's a tautology if you wish (because what I'm fundamentally saying is that sex is powerful because sex is powerful and I'm not interested in proving the reasons--only in discussing how that power affects literature). > Randomly thinking of stories with sex in them: I'll respond to those I've read. I haven't read every OS Card story, so that will naturally exclude much of your list. > Romeo and Juliet > Wedding night sex, which we pick up on the morning after. > Nothing overwhelming about this. Fits into the story perfectly. Um. Wedding night sex is allowed and would draw them together in my opinion. Since the whole point of the rest of the play is that they are drawn powerfully together, explicit sex wasn't needed and didn't work for or against the rest of the theme. Frankly, an explicit sex scene in Romeo and Juliet wouldn't be offensive to me because the rest of the story worked towards their powerful love anyway. In fact, you could have started the play with the marriage and sex and I would have believed all of the rest--which means that, essentially, Shakespeare wrote the rest of the play in order to avoid showing explicit sex, IMO. Their problems weren't with building a strong relationship. After all, they worked to keep sex within the proper bounds by seeking the aid of the priest in their plight. The tragedy was that love wasn't enough to overcome the violence in their families (or the botched manipulation of the priest). Now, if an adaptation of Romeo and Juliet included an explicit sex scene but neglected the getting married part then I'd say that adaptation became as much a story of the danger of unbridled passion as it was a story about damage inflicted by familial feuding (or scheming priesthood). The power of the sex (whether it is legitimate or not) would fundamentally alter my perception of that story. The only reason the story isn't fundamentally about the danger of unbridled passion is because they seek the advise of the priest and get married. Their passion is bridled in an ultimately important way. > See if you can guess the origin of this story... > A man who barely escapes the destruction of the city he lives > in with his two daughters (but not his wife, who dies), flees > into a wilderness area. His daughers, believing the whole > world has more or less come to an end, fear that they will > never be able to bear offspring. They get their father drunk > and have sex with him, because they figure that's the only > way they'll ever get pregnant, since they believe no other > men are alive. A strange and disturbing story of incest--did > it overwhelm the book? I don't know. Was the message of the > Old Testament overwhelmed by the story of Lot and his two daughters? It overwhelmed those characters which is what I said in the part of my post you clipped. Your story can be about other things, but sex will be a powerful force in the lives of the characters and needs to be treated as such. > Heck, I could go on and on. The bottom line is, sex in > literature is only as overwhelming as the author chooses to > let it be. A competent author, anyway. Maybe someone who > doesn't know what he's doing will let the sex overwhelm the > story. But I have read or viewed many sex scenes, off-camera, > on-camera, hinted at, partially shown, or graphically > represented. If the quality of the storytelling overall is > good, I can't think of any sex scene that has overwhelmed the > story any more than it should. It's no coincidence that all > of the above examples I gave are from stories that I recommend. Any story that doesn't give sex the power it has will throw me out of the story. What I'm talking about is my personal beliefs and opinions and how they will affect my perception of a story. Artists can do whatever they want to with their works, with quality or without. But if they include sex, then it had better have an effect on the characters or they will lose me no matter the quality of the rest of the piece. Two examples: Notting Hill. I love this movie, but I have to mentally cut the sex scene because only in Hollywood can two people go through the intimacy of sex and still be in exactly the same point in their relationship afterwards. I use Notting Hill as an example of how the rating system undermines a story. We can maintain the illusion that their relationship can remain unaffected only because the director hid the actual sex. If the director had shown the whole sex scene, he would have had to show the effect it had on the relationship because it would have had an effect on the audience (and would have added a delightful deconstruction of the Julia Roberts character and her publicity crisis). The sex scene was gratuitous and its power weakened the story. Jerry McQuire. I love this movie, too. I use Jerry McQuire as a counter-example to show how the explicit sex is a needed part of this story. Seeing Jerry's resignation during sex is a vital part of his relationship with his girlfriend and shows us his reach for a better morality. Two things that couldn't have been shown as well any other way. The scene sums up his character as well as that of his girlfriend giving us a great baseline for his character changes later on (and shows that his change isn't as sudden as it would otherwise seem). The sex scene was not gratuitous and its power strengthened the story. > Saying we should shy away from sex because it's powerful > seems like the exact wrong approach for an author. What, we > want impotent stories? Yes, sex is a powerful part of the > human experience. All that means is we'd better write about > it. Write with skill, so we're getting the exact amount of > power for our story, and not letting the power overwhelm it. I didn't say you should shy away from it, only that you should treat it with the power it has. If you don't, you will lose me as a reader/viewer. If your characters engage in sex and it has no affect on them, I won't believe anything else about the story and I'll consider the sex gratuitous. Sex is powerful and an artist has the choice whether that power will strengthen or weaken their story by how it affects the characters. > I think, since sex is such a powerful part of our lives, that > it's hard to fully and truthfully develop a character without > letting the reader know something about that person's > relationship to sex. Maybe know a lot, maybe a little, maybe > just hints. But how can we utterly ignore such an integral > part of a character's life? I'm still coming to the > conclusion that a body of literature (not necessarily > individual works within that body) that doesn't include sex > is telling a lie. Here is where I chiefly disagree with you (as opposed to Amelia where my point is that sex necessarily affects your characters powerfully). My point here is that sex is powerful, but it isn't everything. God is more powerful. The gospel is more powerful. Love, joy, service, family, greed, death and despair are all more powerful. Or at least, can be. A literature without sex may be considered incomplete because it doesn't contain all possible human experience but it is hardly telling a lie. I hate it when people try to tell me that my life is driven by sex. It isn't. Sex is a powerful part of life, and a part everyone has to deal with, but it is just a part. So while I maintain that sex is powerful and affects people (and should affect your characters) powerfully, it is hardly everything and doesn't *have* to be a part of a story or characters. I have no objection to sex entering a story, but I insist that care be taken or you will lose me. And I further reject the notion that sex is necessary to a body of literature in order for that body of literature to be considered "true". Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 17 Jul 2001 16:24:38 -0600 Someone recently disagreed with my assessment of Greg Olsen as an illustrator not an artist. To support Olsen as an artist, she used what I consider a false parallel, that being that she and her daughter were moved by the painting, and therefore it is art to her. Nature can be moving. Seeing a majestic landscape can literally take one's breath away. Is that art, however? Or is that just mankind reacting to overwhelming beauty? I don't deny that Olsen's Christ looks like a real person, an attractive person at that. The alabaster walls of Jerusalem in the background are beautifully rendered. The picture is definitely "pretty." But, to me, it's static. It's not just a snapshot of something happening in time. It has no past or future. Is Christ sitting because he's tired? Can't tell. He's too clean to have been walking the streets of Jerusalem all day. What does his expression tell us about what he thinks about Jerusalem? To me, it tells me nothing. Christ's face is expressionless. He could just as easily be looking at a tree, or a rock. Christ isn't sitting as real people sit, he's posing. None of this means, however, that a person who expects less out of our community's artists can't be moved by such paintings. But then we're talking about matters of taste, and not the nature of art. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 17 Jul 2001 19:03:02 -0600 on 7/17/01 11:53 AM, Tami Miller at oakhill84604@hotmail.com wrote: > I'm sure Greg Olsen considers himself and artist. As do I. I feel the > spirit whenever I look at that picture of Christ sitting over Jerusalem. It > makes me think. It's not just a cardboard picture of Christ, it's a picture > of him looking down on the city of Jerusalem, with heartache and real > emotion, and it makes me think about what must be going through his mind. I > also enjoy the `illustration' of the little girl praying before she goes to > sleep. I find it moving. The detail is wonderful. I have that painting > hanging over my little girl's bed, she loves it! It helps her remember to > pray before she goes to sleep at night. It also shows her that she doesn't > need me to sit next to her and tell her word for word what to say. I hope > Greg Olsen continues with his work. I would fill my home with it. Tami, were you using these examples to say Olsen is an artist rather than an illustrator, or to say you like what he does? The feelings you bring up are real and show that you like his work, but don't prove one way or the other whether he's an artist or illustrator. For starters I don't think "Illustrator" has to be a negative--its not a good-or-bad differentiation is it? This is interesting. Someone with more art experience than I have will have to define the difference between art and illustration. I'd like to hear some thoughts on the subject. Steve -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Michael O. TUNNELL, _Brothers in Valor_ Date: 17 Jul 2001 19:27:14 -0600 Karl Heinze Schnibbe (one of Huebener's friends), with Alan Keele, write a book called _The Price_ about all of the events around Huebener's activities and eventual execution. It's likely out of print by now, but should be readily available in libraries. My husband visited the place where Huebener was executed. A number of anti-Nazi activists were memorialized there, including Huebener. The pamphlet Bruce brought home said Huebener was "a member of the American Cult called the Mormons." Tom's play has had two productions at BYU. I was in the first one--playing Huebener's mother. Several of the actual players--including Schnibbe and Rudy Wobbe--attended the play. It became controversial for reasons this list has already discussed, so even though we were invited to take the play to California, we were not permitted to do so. The most fascinating thing for me was visiting with Germans who had known Helmuth Huebener before WW2. They remembered him well and took great joy in describing what Russ Card (who played him in BYU's first production) got right and what he got wrong. I published a piece in _Dialogue_ on the experience of doing the play, called "Doing Huebener." I don't have my resume with me, so I don't remember when I published that, but it was about 13 years ago. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luannstaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Michael O. TUNNELL, _Brothers in Valor_ Date: 17 Jul 2001 19:50:04 -0600 I believe it is. There was also a non-fiction book about these boys a year or more ago in the LDS market. Rose Green wrote: > By any chance is the book about Helmut Huebner and his friends? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Re: Fiction in Church Mags Date: 17 Jul 2001 20:49:04 -0500 Rich Hammett: BTW, did anyone ever come up with documentation on the "no fiction in church mags" policy? My returned missionary e-mail list thinks that I made the whole thing up. _______________ Good question. The only thing I ever saw was the Rolly Polly and All Is Wells column in the SLTrib. But, other posts gave more details, and must have been invented from somewhere. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 18 Jul 2001 02:23:49 -0600 Rich Hammett wrote: > Actually, this happened to me three times, once before my mission and > twice afterwards. The third one I got to keep. She was also the only > person I've ever baptized. (Finland was kind of a dry mission.) Three of them really started taking discussions mere days after you met them? Are you some kind of hunk or what? See, you'd make a lousy fictional character, because no one would consider you believable. (This is why the saying "Truth is stranger than fiction" exists.) I suspect you fall on the edge of the bell curve. I've never seen such a thing happen even once, not to me, not to anybody else. And it certainly shouldn't happen in virtually every story that falls from the pen of the same author. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 18 Jul 2001 02:54:14 -0500 > Frank Maxwell wrote: > > > For the record, Kathy does not live in Utah. She lives in the same > > northern California city in which I live, though in a different ward. The > > "current cultural climate" to which she refers is not the one that in which > > most of the list members reside. Rather, it is one in which LDS teenagers > > are a minority in their high school, in which non-Mormon mass media > > influences predominate, in which modesty is not valued, and in which the > > sanitized, euphemistic attitude that you decry has a negligible, if not > > non-existent, effect. > > I don't think that makes much difference. We get the same mass media > influence in Utah--it's national. And these girls are still growing up > in the LDS subculture. There may be some difference, but I don't think > it's a significant difference, certainly when the California MIA Maids > are reacting in a way I can easily envision Utah MIA Maids reacting in. Sorry D. Michael, but Utah Saints are in a different culture than Saints in the rest of the world. Sure those in Utah have mass media. But they also have an LDS church on every corner, temples within half an hour of each other, news that centers around the church, schools where most of the other students are LDS, and school teachers who are their church leaders. LDS isn't the subculture, it is the culture. The rest of the world has their LDS students in a tiny minority in schools. Which means that they're friends come from very different values and backgrounds. LDS kids are strange. The active ones don't drink, smoke or are sexually active. This makes them different. They are surrounded on all sides by things that are foreign to the things they are taught at church and home. I love Utah. But it annoys me tremendously when Utah Saints think that everyone is like them. Utah is it's own distinct culture far different from everyone elses. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: Re: [AML] GILMORE, _Shot in the Heart_ (Deseret News) Date: 18 Jul 2001 01:04:07 -0400 Since you brought up Gilmore and someone is making a movie of JS, I just have to ask this question. In his book, Gilmore says that the mobsters who killed JS dragged him down to the ground and shot him in the heart so that his blood would drop onto the ground in some kind of ....I can't remember. the blood atonement stuff wasn't until BY, right? Anyway, does anyone know if that's true, that they shot him in the heart etc? or is it folklore. Tom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BroHam000@aol.com Subject: [AML] Spring 01 (Humor) _Irreantum_ Date: 18 Jul 2001 12:42:08 EDT Okay, I read virtually the whole Spring 2001issue of Irreantum, and I enjoyed most of it. I feel perplexed though, about what I perceived as the prevailing notion that by and large we are a humorless people. This has never been my experience, and I am a lifelong member. My experience is that we are quite jocund and jovial. It has been my experience that many of us (myself definitely included) take ourselves way too seriously and need to loosen up, the key to which is, I believe, humility and gratitude. I detected a fair amount of cynicism and sarcasm in most of the humorous offerings I read, and frankly - while you may get some degree of satisfaction from seeing straight-laced members of The Church with egg on their faces - since pride is the problem, I don't see sarcasm as being really effective in remedying it. I appreciated Brother Snow's examples of the Prophet Joseph Smith's sense of humor in the introduction; I can't imagine the kind of total good cheer expressed in the quote about laughing "from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet," shaking "every bit of flesh in him," as being engendered by some piece of wry wit put forward at someone else's expense. Every example of good humor I saw in Brother Snow's introduction was what I guess I would call "gentle humor". It brought to mind this vignette from The Magician's Nephew: "So they all let themselves go. And there was such merriment that the Jackdaw himself plucked up courage again...and said: "'Aslan! Aslan! Have I made the first joke? Will everybody always be told how I made the first joke?' "'No, little friend,' said the Lion. 'You have not made the first joke; you have only been the first joke.' Then everyone laughed more than ever; but the Jackdaw didn't mind and laughed just as loud till the horse shook its head and the Jackdaw lost its balance and fell off, but remembered its wings (they were still new to it) before it reached the ground." This is gentle humor; it "uplifts and enlightens" (Section 50 is a great guideline for any kind of human interaction). If C.S. Lewis would have had Aslan say, "No, you are the first joke, you dork!" some of us would find that really funny. The the brunt of the jab, though, in this case the Jackdaw, would have been wounded, mortified, diminished. Where is the good in that? And that's what we're about - doing good, right? I have a friend whom I look upon as a kind of a savior to me because she helped me lighten up at a time when I carried some very heavy burdens and felt to grieve unnecessarily over them. At first I found her humor a bit over the top, and it still may be on occasion - I guess that's her issue - but mostly I found myself able to partake more of the joy of living when I started accepting the inherent goofiness that comes with being mortal. I still chuckle when I remember my daughters' reports of how my friend referred to another lady at a girls' camp as "Sister High Blood Pressure" in reference to her short temper and impatience. If this good-natured poking fun ever got back to Sister High Blood Pressure, I would hope she had the humility to accept and appreciate it, and even to let it be a factor for change. The more I think about it, the more apparent it is to me that, like anything else, before we venture upon a course of risk-taking in the humor department, we ought to first seek the Spirit, and abide in it. I guess what I really want to say is that the general membership of the Church is a good-natured lot, and that it is natural to be so by virtue of our membership. I found the prevailing attitude of the offerings in this most recent issue of Irreantum to be a little too sour in that regard. And by the way, as my daughter said to a Utah teenager online the other day, what makes some of you guys think that anyone outside Utah is interested that you have the audacity to use profanity? Virtually every time I read it in one of your pieces, I get the idea that the writer has some kind of "authority" issue, and is taking a rather adolescent pleasure in using profanity for shock value. I feel tired when I read it. I want to say, "Why do you seek to interrupt my rejoicings?" I think the work of the Kingdom can go along much better without it. My best to you all. Linda Hyde - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 18 Jul 2001 17:11:43 -0600 >Now, if an adaptation of Romeo and Juliet included an explicit sex scene >but neglected the getting married part then I'd say that adaptation >became as much a story of the danger of unbridled passion as it was a >story about damage inflicted by familial feuding (or scheming >priesthood). The power of the sex (whether it is legitimate or not) >would fundamentally alter my perception of that story. The only reason >the story isn't fundamentally about the danger of unbridled passion is >because they seek the advise of the priest and get married. Their >passion is bridled in an ultimately important way. It so is not! They may have gotten married, but it was their unbridled passion and total recklessness that cost them their lives and that stirred up ye ol family feud. The marriage was an extension of their teenage loopiness, not a serious covenant made by two mature people--remember just five minutes prior to the whole Juliet idea he was professing similar undying love for Rosalinde. >Jerry McQuire. I love this movie, too. I use Jerry McQuire as a >counter-example to show how the explicit sex is a needed part of this >story. Seeing Jerry's resignation during sex is a vital part of his >relationship with his girlfriend and shows us his reach for a better >morality. Two things that couldn't have been shown as well any other >way. The scene sums up his character as well as that of his girlfriend >giving us a great baseline for his character changes later on (and shows >that his change isn't as sudden as it would otherwise seem). The sex >scene was not gratuitous and its power strengthened the story. I must disagree strenuously. First of all, that wasn't just "explicit," it was practically pornography. It was so incredibly graphic that I was completely shocked to see it in mainstream movie. Who saw Jerry's face in that shocking flash of flesh? There were plenty of other things that serve as a baseline for Jerry's character and even if you really really wanted to show his great resignation during sex there was no real need to get that graphic. It took me out of the story completely. Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 18 Jul 2001 17:19:38 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: > Since you mentioned 3 stories by Card, I thought you might be > interested in related comments Card made several years ago > about "NYPD Blue": > > "It must be said: Never, not once, has any of the > nudity been remotely important to the storyline. Never, > not once, has it been anything other than the series- > creator's adolescent need to say nanner-nanner, I got > away with it. Stories are not advanced by nudity, they > are broken up by it, As long as he is referring to the stories in NYPD blue, I would agree. But I hope he's not talking universally, because I think there are some scenes that are advanced by nudity. (The concentration camp scenes in _Schindler's List_, for instance.) WRT NYPD, I have to agree that the nudity lends little to the story, and I think the producer may have come to that conclusion, the show having virtually no nudity this last season. At least Bochco is an equal opportunity nudity purveyor, having revealed Dennis Franz' corpulent derriere to the TV viewing world. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Ronald WALKER et al., _Mormon History_ Date: 18 Jul 2001 16:22:58 -0700 Indeed -- I'm learning a lot from the book. I didn't know he was involved with the Hoffman stuff. Thanks for the post. [Jeff Needle] [MOD: My recollection (as an intern at BYU Studies at the time) is that *all* practicing Mormon historians were involved one way or another with the Hoffman stuff... And very scary it got, too, when it started looking like someone was sending letter bombs to Mormon historians.] ----- Original Message ----- > > I was Ronald Walker's research assistant back in my undergrad days at BYU. > I spent hours and hours squinting at copies of early 19th century American > newspapers on microfiche for him, searching for references to salamanders > and such. Despite the fact that he was duped by Hoffman (he was convinced > that the so-called Salamander Letter was authentic), he's a fine > historian--and a good man to boot! > > Sharlee Glenn > glennsj@inet-1.com > > > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell Hunt" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 18 Jul 2001 19:28:24 -0500 "Scott and Marny Parkin" wrote: >You seem to be saying that one must either write for money or for >love, but I simply disagree with the premise. Actually, I didn't say that. I said that I hadn't been able to sell a novel yet because I had been writing for passion without giving much consideration to marketability. I also said that I'm trying to do both of these with my current novel, for which I have a LOT of passion and I think matches the LDS market much better than anything that I've written thus far. Some writing can only be for passion and some is obviously written mostly for marketability. But I believe it's possible to write for both. I want to learn _how_ to write for both. Some have done it already and I see the results. I haven't been able to do it yet, but I hope to soon. Now I've said enough. I think I'll go sit at the back of the class and listen for awhile. Darvell _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 18 Jul 2001 22:09:21 -0400 Thom and Steve, very interesting observations. I heard once somewhere that a painting should 'say' something. Otherwise, you might as well snap a photo. A think a photographer who is an artist might take exception to this statement. Because, as in any other medium, there are photos and then there are photos. One of the most moving exhibits I have ever seen was a collection of black and white photographs of, I think mostly Auschwitz. The way they were composed individually, and then collectively had an astonishing impact on me. And the choice of black and white vs color was also a part of making the exhibit a work of art. I was also thinking of how this applied to illustrations in children's books. Some pictures are just illustrations. They represent the words on the page and do not add anything else. Other illustrations seem more like your definition of art. In what I have learned to call a 'true picture book' the pictures tell a story of their own as well. In some cases they even totally contradict the actual written word to make it say something that the text alone does not say. Oh, and what about jacket cover illustration. Doesn't that sometimes become art? Some covers are so well done. Tracie Laulusa - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Kenny Kemp Signs Deal Date: 18 Jul 2001 20:39:07 -0600 >--- Alan Smithee, Jr. Isn't this the name that directors use when they don't want to put their real names in the credits? barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 18 Jul 2001 22:03:51 -0600 Anne Wight wrote: >I love Utah. But it annoys me tremendously when Utah Saints think that >everyone is like them. Utah is it's own distinct culture far different from >everyone elses. Some of us are just born to play the contrarian... ;-) I agree with you that Utah Mormons often assume that the rest of the world is like their corner of the world, but I think that idea extends to pretty much every other community, too. There is a baseline American culture that exists nearly everywhere, and it's probably the one broadly reflected in TV and film. But there's also a unique element to every community that clearly differentiates every place from every other--even within Utah. I currently live in a tiny, rural Utah town whose primary industry is fruit growing, and the local culture is radically different from that of Provo (about 30 miles away), including a substantially lower proportion of LDS among our population. I grew up "in the mission field" as a semi-active Mormon, and lived in some pretty diverse locations including San Francisco, Denver, Washington DC, and Chicago before moving to Utah as an adult. Each of those places had their own broad cultural mores, and each community exerted its own pressures. As the only Mormon in my high school in the northwest 'burbs of Chicago I dealt with a unique set of pressures. Mine was a sexually active but conservative school--many people led chaste lives, and those who were overtly active were often despised as having no taste or limits. The group of people I hung out with (band, choir, and theater, mostly) were actually some of the most physically touchy, yet sexually inactive in the school. They liked to flirt and touch, but they had clear limits and they respected each others' limits. The pressures that most hit my school were drugs and conspicuous consumption. I lived a short 25 miles south of the Wisconsin state line, where the drinking age was only 18 (it was 21 in Illinois). The most popular sport in my school was the kegger bash. The second most popular was a precursor to modern Raves with lots of loud music and an assortment of drugs. As the only Mormon in my high school, I had an enormous pressure to be the good guy all the time. Problem was, I wasn't a very good guy. I didn't talk about my Mormonism much, partly because I knew I wasn't a good example and partly because I didn't want to deal with the expectations. Which is a good thing, since I was also a teen alcoholic. In my case, the isolation from Mormon culture caused me problems that I don't think most Utah Mormons have to deal with. My friends never really had to deal with the morality of drinking alcohol--to them they were just jumping the gun on a perfectly legal and acceptable behavior. Sure, they committed mischief, but not sin. For me, though, I had to overcome (or ignore) the whole sin-thing. I started drinking young (about 10; serious by 12) and was a full-fledged lush at 16 and pretty much out of control and unable to stop. My friends thought I was a little hard core, but not too far over the line. But inside my head, I knew I was doing evil. And those who do evil are evil. Therefore, I was evil and to be despised by the people that I had a moral responsibility to--the Mormons. I felt completely estranged from the community that should have been my solace. If there had been any other Mormons in my school who also drank I might have seen a path back, a belief that maybe my sin was not utterly detestable. I might have felt a community with the saints that could have provided me with a hope of redemption. But I didn't have that. I was completely alone, and in my own mind I was damned. Here in Utah, that issue is completely inverted. I listen to kids challenge each other to morality contests all the time. Some of them one-up each other with how pure or chaste or sinless they are, because that's the common experience, the common language and set of assumptions. I've listened to other Mormon kids viciously mock those who seek to uphold the morality they learned at church. They point the finger from within the culture, creating a betrayal that I never had to consider while growing up in Chicago. To prove their Humanity many think they have to sin, and having sinned now find themselves lost between the extremes in the culture that should have protected them. A completely different set of pressures that are no less devastating than those that I faced in Chicago. Living in the heart or Mormon country doesn't mean that social pressure is eliminated; it just takes a very different form. I would argue that the form is sometimes more damaging than direct temptation because it tears at you from within the allegedly safe walls of your community. All of which is tangential to your comments to Michael, but only somewhat so. I'm not sure that Utah kids have it any easier than those outside our would-be Zion. The pressures are different, not less. I cringe just as much when I hear the rest of the country mock Utah's sheltered simplicity as I do when Utahns minimize the social and ethical challenges that don't make their way into Utah. I think both camps are wrong. It's hard all over. All that changes from place to place are the details of the struggle, not the fact of it. Which is one of the many reasons I think we need to expand our definitions of Mormon literature to deal with a wider variety of locations, cultural assumptions, and situations--not all of which require the language of cultural Mormonism. Just because a Utah Mormon has told a story set in Provo doesn't mean another can't tell--or sell--a story that deals with the same issues from a New England perspective. Telling all our stories in all our permutations is how we create the global community of saints, and discover where our similarities outweigh our differences. That's how we become one people. So let us glory in our differences, recognize that we all struggle with our own unique issues, and try to find ways to overcome whatever challenges we face. Minimizing the other guy's problems may make us feel better about our own failures, but it does nothing to solve them, and it certainly doesn't create the community of saints that can support all of us in our time of need. We create and change our own culture with our art. I believe that through literature, through telling true stories of our individual struggles (whatever they may be), we can knit together our diverse Mormon communities and build a true Zion that spans the world. If we can only stop one-upping each other about how much harder our own lives and problems are. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: [AML] Upcoming Penguin Lives Bio of Joseph Smith Date: 18 Jul 2001 21:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Penguin Books has announced as a part of its Penguin Lives biographical series that Jacksonian historian Robert Remini will author a short 150-200 page biography of Joseph Smith. It should be published at about the time as Dutcher's movie is distributed, which should also coincide with Joseph's 200th birthday anniversary. I've not read any of Remini's historical works, but he's written about Jackson, Clay and other Jacksonian figures. He's an emeritus professor at the Univ. of Illinois. If you're unfamiliar with them, the Penguin Lives series presents short, readable, but a bit pricy, biographies of American and world figures written by prominent authors, usually with a literary flair. Ed Snow ===== Read free excerpts from _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_, a Signature Books Bestseller at http://www.signaturebooks.com/bestsell.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 19 Jul 2001 02:18:39 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > I didn't say you should shy away from it, only that you should treat it > with the power it has. If you don't, you will lose me as a > reader/viewer. I _did_ think you were saying, "Sex is powerful, so you'd better not use it." Now that you've clarified things, I think we may more or less agree. In fact, I think you may have presented a good definition of "gratuitous sex." I define it as sex which is not integral to the story--apparently just thrown in for the effect. You may have pinpointed the mechanism behind it: ignoring the power of sex in people's lives. Sex which doesn't affect their lives is gratuitous because it's a lie. Sex which affects the characters' lives is sex which then becomes integral to the story, because it changes the story. And therefore ceases to be gratuitous. > A literature without sex may be considered incomplete because > it doesn't contain all possible human experience but it is hardly > telling a lie. I hate it when people try to tell me that my life is > driven by sex. It isn't. Sex is a powerful part of life, and a part > everyone has to deal with, but it is just a part. I can't do more here than say I disagree. Sex doesn't have to enter every story--although a character's attitude toward sex ought to be one of those background things an author knows about the character, even if it remains subtext in the story--but if a body of literature which claims to reflect the lives of a distinct group of people, like for example, LDS literature, never reflects a powerful aspect of their lives like sex, then how can it be an accurate reflection? There's a big difference between not reflecting all possible human experience and leaving out a significant aspect of human experience. Fortunately, LDS literature has not left sex out entirely--but there have certainly been attempts to make it that way. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 19 Jul 2001 02:25:56 -0600 REWIGHT wrote: > Sorry D. Michael, but Utah Saints are in a different culture than Saints in > the rest of the world. > I love Utah. But it annoys me tremendously when Utah Saints think that > everyone is like them. Utah is it's own distinct culture far different from > everyone elses. It annoys me when people assume, because I live in Utah now, that I'm just another ignorant Utah Saint. I grew up in Minnesota and didn't move to Utah until I was well into being an adult. I was one of AT MOST four Mormons in my whole high school. I wasn't speaking in ignorance. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 19 Jul 2001 03:25:56 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: > Since you mentioned 3 stories by Card, I thought you might be > interested in related comments Card made several years ago > about "NYPD Blue": > Stories are not advanced by nudity, they > are broken up by it, as the audience stops thinking > about what happens next and is either attracted to or > repelled by or shocked about or simply distracted by > somebody's breast or butt. I simply have to disagree with him here, although I assume he's talking specifically about stories in visual media, since he's had his share of nude scenes in his books. But I take the same stand here as with the "sex is powerful" issue. Nudity stops or advances the story based solely on whether the storyteller handles it well or not. Even KSL was willing to air the nudity in _Schindler's List_ (while balking at the F-word), a tacit acceptance of the notion that nudity can be integral to the story. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] GILMORE, _Shot in the Heart_ (Deseret News) Date: 19 Jul 2001 08:20:59 -0600 Tom Johnson wrote: > > Since you brought up Gilmore and someone is making a movie of JS, I just > have to ask this question. In his book, Gilmore says that the mobsters who > killed JS dragged him down to the ground and shot him in the heart so that > his blood would drop onto the ground in some kind of ....I can't remember. > the blood atonement stuff wasn't until BY, right? Anyway, does anyone know > if that's true, that they shot him in the heart etc? or is it folklore. > > Tom It's folklore. Joseph fell out the window, or jumped. He wasn't shot in the heart but did bleed while lying on the ground. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 19 Jul 2001 18:35:57 > >Chris Grant wrote: > > > Since you mentioned 3 stories by Card, I thought you might be > > interested in related comments Card made several years ago > > about "NYPD Blue": > > > Stories are not advanced by nudity, they > > are broken up by it, as the audience stops thinking > > about what happens next and is either attracted to or > > repelled by or shocked about or simply distracted by > > somebody's breast or butt. > D. Michael: >I simply have to disagree with him here, although I assume he's talking >specifically about stories in visual media, since he's had his share of >nude scenes in his books. Doesn't the quote indicate he's referring to "NYPD Blue" specifically? Or did Chris misidentify it? For what it's worth, I agree with Scott about "NYPD Blue." I'm an avid fan of the show, and while there's not as much nudity as some would have you believe (it occurs maybe twice a season, at least the past few years), I've never seen it add anything to the story or characters. I think the idea is to make the show "gritty" -- the same reason they use rather foul language (which, by the way, DOES add to the show). Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tyler Moulton" Subject: [AML] Re: Fiction in Church Mags Date: 19 Jul 2001 12:56:11 -0600 >>>Rich Hammett: >>>BTW, did anyone ever come up with documentation=20 on the "no fiction in church mags" policy? My returned=20 missionary e-mail list thinks that I made the whole thing up. Being curious, I called The Friend a couple weeks ago and spoke with three = different editors who each told me the same thing: no more fiction, but = there is still room for "true-life stories." Tyler - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Russ Asplund Subject: RE: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 19 Jul 2001 13:18:43 -0600 Okay, I have lived in Utah for all of my life that I can remember. My family history with the church stretches back for generations. And yet, I am a middling liberal democrat, like to dye my hair odd colors--or shave it off entirely at present. I like loud music, write stories based on Jewish Mythology, and have struggled and sinned enough that I can't imagine judging anyone else. I also have a firm testimony and take joy in teaching six year old kids in primary. So I have been raised a Utah Saint, but I don't think I fit anyone's preconceived notions of what a Utah Saint should have turned out like. My point? Not only is each culture distinct, each person is distinct. That is what I value about literature, it lets me see the world from someone else's eyes for a while. My other point is that it bothers me when people stereotype Utah Mormons. Because it doesn't describe me, and it often leads people like me to feel disenfranchised from our culture. Russell Asplund russa@candesa.com "Art is a lie which makes us realize the truth." -Picasso - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Russ Asplund Subject: RE: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 19 Jul 2001 13:35:05 -0600 Why is her parallel any more false than your assessment that Olsen is an illustrator because he doesn't fit your preconceived notion of what an artist should be? And you seem to me to be arguing almost exactly backwards. An illustrator would try to tell a story with their picture. An artist simply tries to create something of beauty, whether it is representational, abstract or symbolic. Now, that art can be bad, good, great, or anywhere along that spectrum. It might move some people more than others. But that doesn't mean we get to call what we like art and dismiss everything else as illustration. Or accuse others of "expects less" just because they expect differently. Russell Asplund russa@candesa.com -----Original Message----- Someone recently disagreed with my assessment of Greg Olsen as an illustrator not an artist. To support Olsen as an artist, she used what I consider a false parallel, that being that she and her daughter were moved by the painting, and therefore it is art to her. Nature can be moving. Seeing a majestic landscape can literally take one's breath away. Is that art, however? Or is that just mankind reacting to overwhelming beauty? I don't deny that Olsen's Christ looks like a real person, an attractive person at that. The alabaster walls of Jerusalem in the background are beautifully rendered. The picture is definitely "pretty." But, to me, it's static. It's not just a snapshot of something happening in time. It has no past or future. Is Christ sitting because he's tired? Can't tell. He's too clean to have been walking the streets of Jerusalem all day. What does his expression tell us about what he thinks about Jerusalem? To me, it tells me nothing. Christ's face is expressionless. He could just as easily be looking at a tree, or a rock. Christ isn't sitting as real people sit, he's posing. None of this means, however, that a person who expects less out of our community's artists can't be moved by such paintings. But then we're talking about matters of taste, and not the nature of art. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 19 Jul 2001 12:01:49 -0700 (PDT) The thread about artists vs. illustrators got me stuck on another tangent: One of my Mormon literary interests is considering forms of writing that may be particularly suited to capturing Mormon philosophy and culture. I've floated two of those ideas to the list already---parables and collaborative writing. Here's the next one: graphic novels. In particular, I think that it would be a fascinating way of capturing the experience of LDS missionaries---a way that could enlarge the genre of the missionary story. When I was on my mission, I came across a little comic-book pamphlet ominously titled Vizitatorii (the Visitors). I think an investigator gave it to me. It was part of a series of Christian (of the born-again vareity, I believe) illustrated tracts put out by a guy located in Chico, CA. The visitors are, of course, LDS missionaries and the tract warns against their evil ways--even debunking their doctrines and exposing their methods. The basic plot: an older women is falling under the influence of the elders. Her young, attractive, college student niece appears one day and takes the elders apart using 'logic' and bible verses. The illustrations are actually quite good. I recall one panel where one of the elders faces is completely tensed and the sweat is streaming down his forehead. The ending is hilarious. As the two defeated elders walk away, one of them begins to express doubt---the other threatens to tell the mission president (I forget what term was used) who would send the doubter off to 're-education camp' (the MTC). So I began by thinking of how one would do a parody of Vizitatorii, but then that seemed hard because it was already kind of a parody, but then I turned to thoughts of Art Speigelmann's _Maus: A Survivor's Tale_ which I haven't read all the way through yet but have read a lot about... My point is that I think the epic-journey kind of structure of the LDS mission (plus the many strange characters one often meets in the course of doing the work) lends itself to the graphic novel form. Anyone else had these thoughts? Any comments on graphic novels as a form--possibilities and limitations? I'm not very familiar with the genre, but I have flipped through some and read reviews of others and it seems as a genre to be stretching beyond the violent, anti/super-hero mode. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "???n ??e" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 19 Jul 2001 12:57:02 -0700 I knew that sooner or later, the topic of "Utah Mormon Culture" was going to head its ugly rear. A wise former moderator of this list once headed me off from making a comment about Utah Mormon culture that I'm sure would have angered a few people. I don't even remember what I was going to say, but I'm sure it was injudicious. I've lived all over, and though I grew up Mormon, after a fashion, was not always in the company of the local Mormon culture. Since becoming an adult, I settled mainly in the Portland, Oregon area, where I live now. What began to change my mind was a four-year relocation to Columbus, Ohio. I started to see that what I thought was a Utah Mormon culture was merely a stereotype that some of us outside of Utah believe in but is not necessarily true. The reason Columbus, Ohio made a difference in my thinking was that in the four years we lived there, many circumstantial changes had a surprisingly large effect on the local Mormon culture. Add to that the broader experience of leaving Portland and then returning to it four years later, where other changes had triggered interesting cultural effects here. In Columbus, the following factors existed: * There was a bedrock of old Mormon families in the area that had been there when there was little more than a ward to cover the whole city. * It had grown to have three stakes each of which covered large territory in outlying areas. * It was in the Washington DC Temple district making for an 8-10 hour drive for temple worship. * The stake center was shared by two wards and two stakes. * There was a mixture of wards and branches in the stake. One of the wards was about 70 miles away. Some of the branches were closer as the crow flies, but down old rural roads that made them more difficult to get to and from. * Within our ward, there were the Westerville residents and the Columbus residents. Westerville was an old village that was now an extension of Columbus. Mostly separated by the outerbelt I-270 freeway, Westerville had a lot of very well-off families. The Columbus side of the ward was not well-off at all and partially slummy. * There was a deaf colony in the ward boundaries, not enough for a unit of their own. All of these factors and more made for a difficult cultural adjustment for my family and me. We lived on the Columbus side of the ward. Our teenagers went to an entirely different high school than the other teens in the ward. Ours was an inner city high school with all of its problems. The other high school was a suburban high school with all of its problems. The old-family people didn't seem to realize that the new-family people keenly felt the differences. The travel distance to church meetings, for home teaching, to stake conference, and for socializing made for interesting culture. So many things changed when a building was being remodeled and people had to travel an hour each way to the building. When the Columbus temple was built, there were big cultural changes that came with it. When some deaf people converted, the need for interpreters grew. The Gospel Essentials class was being taught in ASL. I remember that when the Utah-raised choir director had us open to "The Wintry Day," a Jewish-raised convert commented that the song had little application to Ohio saints, to which the Utah-raised husband of the choir director responded that the pioneer heritage belonged to all saints everywhere. Even more significant to my outlook was moving from the Portland, Oregon area, where the Church was purported to be the second largest denomination next to Roman Catholic, to the Columbus, Ohio area where the Church was barely known, and then back to Portland after some pretty significant changes. When we returned to Portland, the urban stake we had left had been decimated by members moving to the suburbs, mostly to the Washington state side of the Columbia River where housing costs were lower. The changes to the culture of urban Portland Mormons seemed significant. Wards that used to be burgeoning with converts were struggling to stay alive, while outlying stakes were talking about splitting. This year, a reorganization reduced the number of wards in that stake. My overall belief about culture now is that it is closely tied to circumstances and that small changes in circumstances result in large changes in culture. Even things like the view of the authority of priesthood leaders changes, not just from place to place, but from era to era. I moved out of what I used to call, under my breath, The Unrighteous Dominion stake. I called it that after a high councilor reemed a counselor of mine and then said in an aside to me, "A little unrighteous dominion now and then doesn't hurt." From association with some of the people from that stake now, they seem to have softened a great deal now that they're not the highest baptizing stake in the Church. I have come to believe that referring to the "Utah Mormon Culture" is no more than a stereotype. I think the cultures in the church change drastically from stake to stake and ward to ward, based on leadership styles, geography, ethnicity, history, and a little bit of randomness. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Reid Subject: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 19 Jul 2001 14:57:21 -0700 I finally have had a day when I can actually read the post and enjoy them - thank you all for all of your interesting insights. Now, I have a couple of questions: The three-fold mission of the church is to: 1. Redeem the dead 2. Preach the gospel 3. Perfect the Saints (Not necc. in that order.) So, do we, as Mormon writers have any obligation to try and fulfill any of those mission statements? And, if so, does that mean that those who write for LDS publishers are in the process of "perfecting the Saints." While those who write for "gentile/national" publishers are those who are "preaching the gospel?" (i.e When Orson Scott Card writes a story based loosely on Joseph Smith, is he, in some way, helping to preach the gospel?) Thanks for your time. Regards, Terri Terri Reid Executive Producer - Midwest Region PIXELight www.itpnow.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 19 Jul 2001 14:14:02 -0600 D. Michael Martindale writes: [...] >Even KSL was willing to air the nudity in _Schindler's List_ >(while balking at the F-word), a tacit acceptance of the >notion that nudity can be integral to the story. As I understand it, KSL's choice was between airing the movie with the nudity intact or not airing the movie at all. If that is true, it does not seem reasonable to me to interpret KSL's decision to air the movie as anything more than a decision that the nudity was not enough of a negative factor to outweigh the positive messages conveyed by the film. This would be similar to OSC's apparent decision that although the nudity in "NYPD Blue" was a minus rather than a plus, it did not outweigh the pluses to the point that he was unwilling to watch the show. Furthermore, I don't think we should equate KSL's business decisions with the Church's imprimatur. Since KSL televises Jay Leno's monologues, are dirty jokes now okay with the Church? In the eyes of the Church, is watching "Fear Factor", "Spy TV", and "Weakest Link" an appropriate Sabbath day activity since KSL airs them on Sunday nights? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 19 Jul 2001 15:19:27 -0500 I want to respond to this thread and have been trying to collect my thoughts to express my feelings on the subject. As an LDS author it's an issue I can't ignore or fail to deal with. I want to thank Jacob for expressing most of how I feel: Sex is a powerful force. You can't ignore it. First I want to express briefly my tiredness and exhaustion with the argument that sex, even depraved sex, is recorded in the Bible, therefore graphic titillating scenes in today's literature are equally "okay." Sorry. Doesn't work for me. Take the story of Lot's daughters which D. Michael related. I've read it. It tells the basic facts: they got Lot drunk and "lay with him" (<--exact words) to get pregnant. NOWHERE in the text of the Bible is ever related any sexual explicitness unnecessary to relating the basic story. We don't know exact details of how they completed that act, or any such business. It is NOT necessary for us to have those details to understand the gist of what happened. The Bible is NOT more graphic than needed, EVER. Yes, sex happens. The Bible is full of righteous begetting as well as the consequences of immoral sexual behavior. Even the Song of Solomon (which my father called a dirty book and doesn't believe belongs in the Bible) is not anywhere near what I call explicit. Second, I believe that while sex is an ultimate, powerful life force, it is also sacred. As the temple is sacred. You're SUPPOSED to attend the temple often. When you're married, you're SUPPOSED to have sex (I might add, often, and for three basic reasons--the preservation of intimacy between the two of you, for fun, and (duh) for procreation). Embarrassment is not the only reason for not writing detailed sexual encounters; some things are sacred and should be, must be, treated as such. Relate as much detail as is necessary for us to understand what's going on. No more. (The same rule holds if you were writing a scene inside the temple, which we discussed recently: be very cautious.) I don't lock my bedroom door ONLY because of embarrassment if my 11-year old daughter walked in (though it would be an embarrassing moment, sure). Some things are sacred, and for me and my spouse alone to know. So far I believe I've done well teaching my own children about sex without embarrassment. The same daughter I mentioned above knows more about the mechanics of sex than I knew when I got married. In today's world, she has to. If she doesn't hear it from me she'll hear it elsewhere, and it will be incorrect information. STILL, I don't want her reading explicit sex scenes or viewing explicit scenes in movies and have those things swimming in her head at her age. I know I read things as a teen that I wish I hadn't. It was too overwhelming and took my thoughts in directions far from virtuous. Therefore, when I write, I feel I have a responsibility to consider the hormones of my readers. If I were to write something explicit and a married LDS person read it and happened to be aroused by it, that person has a legal and lawful outlet to vent those feelings. That person also has life experience to relate with such a scene, and may not be "thrown out" of the story by it (although they could be, depending). My single readers don't have that. My teenage readers don't. Many of my readers are twelve and thirteen and may lack the maturity to handle a graphically detailed scene. Thankfully I haven't found it necessary to BE very graphic in anything I've written to date. Sex happens in my writing. It's obvious sex happens. It's also obvious that in negative circumstances it's very destructive. But the DETAILS of the particular sex the characters have don't need to be shared, unless a particular thing actually *changes* the character. (Biblical example: it's important for us to know Onan "spilled his seed" on purpose--refusing to raise children to his brother as the law required--to know why the Lord struck him dead. Yet it is still NOT important for us to follow every detailed movement of that fateful event.) We DO have an obligation to keep sex sacred. A former Bishop of mine had a favorite phrase: TMI--"Too Much Information." He'd say it when ward members would converse on such things as their problems with diarrhea or other intestinal distress or health problems. I think the same goes for sex. I've had people give me TMI about their sex lives that I'd really rather not know, thanks very much. I think FREQUENTLY Hollywood gives us TMI about characters' sex lives. Like Jacob was saying: it's an important part of life, but it's not the ONLY thing, either, as Hollywood et al. would have us believe. It's also possible to write in "code" when necessary and use phrases that sexually experienced readers will understand, but virginal and trying-to-stay-that-way readers will not, or will not get as visual an image in their mind as an experienced reader might. Most of the language in _The Color Purple_ describing the relationship Shug and Celie have is veiled in this way. I saw Sharon Stone last night on Actors' Studio. One of the students at the end asked a question about how she reconciled God and her religious upbringing with her work (known for several explicit sexual scenes). I don't agree with everything she said in reply; but one thing she said (paraphrasing) was that we have to acknowledge our sex as part of us. "Not just our sensuality, or our passion, but our **SEX!!**" she said. She said you can't remove that part of yourself or separate it out. It's part of you and you have to accept it and acknowledge its power. (I would add, whether your circumstances allow you to be righteously sexually active or not. You have to cope with that powerful force one way or another.) Are we possibly (culturally, as a group) still afraid to come out and publicly own our sexuality? Are we embarrassed by its sheer, raw power? Afraid it will become "lust" rather than a potent spiritual life force to be celebrated and enjoyed? It occurred to me that many Latter-day Saints DO seem to do this--to separate our sexual selves from the rest of ourselves, at least IN PUBLIC. Maybe not in the privacy of our own bedrooms. Yet--to explain (was it D. Michael who asked?)--the majority of RS sisters I know don't mind talking about it in a healthy way (without violating personal spousal trust.) Most sisters I know-- we've got a good, healthy happy attitude about sex. There *are* those who "don't like it" or feel it's "dirty" or a "duty," but those are the minority (also, shall we say, not frequently found among the younger generation either). According to my husband, men, however, DON'T talk about sex among their Priesthood brethren, at all. Is this part of the problem? Men? Speak up. Never has there been a better statement on morality than "Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments" by Jeffrey R. Holland. If you haven't read it, get a copy. It's excellent. I attended the original devotional address at BYU. While he wasn't explicit, either, he explained better than anyone ever had to me why chastity and monogamy and morality were so vital to righteous living and personal happiness. ...The only challenge left, really, is comprehending that something on an equal sacred plane as the sacrament or temple ordinances, considered sacred and holy, doesn't have to be performed with the same decorum as a temple ordinance... :-D > > Randomly thinking of stories with sex in them: Sex scenes that took me straight out of the story: _Forever_ by Judy Blume (read as a teen; I couldn't get past the explicitness to comprehend the story she intended to tell); most other books by her _Meet Joe Black_ was downright embarrassing as well as unnecessary to forwarding the plot Ken Follett --I don't even remember the TITLE of this book, that's how much this 8-page scene stood out... the main character was a woman, married to one spy from one country (turned out to be the bad guy) and had an affair with the other spy-guy, had to shoot her husband at the end to save herself and her baby? Rebecca something, maybe? _Shakespeare in Love_ --unnecessary nudity and detail, plus I kept thinking how puny Gwyneth Paltrow's figure was, poor thing... Well-handled sex scenes that kept me in the story, forwarded the plot: _Heartburn_ with Meryl Streep/Jack Nicholson (very funny, brief scene) _Songmaster_ by Orson Scott Card --didn't bother me, but likely would bother many, yet was not overly descriptive _The Color Purple_ by Alice Walker --the sex included was vital to the character and plot development, also tastefully handled _What Women Want_ the scene was important to character development, besides being hysterically truthful, without being overly explicit. In a movie _about_ a man able to hear women's private thoughts, leaving sex out of it would have been incomplete. That's all I have time for right now. Baby's crying--naptime! ...come to think of it, I do suffer some personal embarrassment when I take all FIVE of my kids out in public... there is *that*.... (I'm FAR from Utah and 5 kids is an oddity here) the comments people make about don't I know how that happens by now... (but do they mean sex, or birth control? I'll ask the next rude person I bump into.) still I feel embarrassed by the sheer volume, physical evidence of the healthy state of things in my marriage, though I shouldn't be ashamed of *that* at all. working on it... (**still off-topic: another sister with six kids once told me she started answering that with "yeah, isn't it fun??" and said people don't have a good response to that one. I've tried it. It works. They generally shut up.) Well--back to Real Life. Linda ================= Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 19 Jul 2001 15:45:26 -0600 "Eric D. Snider" wrote: > > > Stories are not advanced by nudity, > Doesn't the quote indicate he's referring to "NYPD Blue" specifically? Or > did Chris misidentify it? He jumped off from NYPD Blue, but swerved into a general statement when he said "stories." -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Russ Asplund Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 19 Jul 2001 15:40:23 -0600 I have a friend at work, Joseph Gates, who is working on a superhero comic called Missionary Man. It should be out this fall, he is currently working with his collaborator on the story of the origins of Missionary Man, but I think the idea of a superhero who decides to go on a mission has a lot of promise, and the art and/or illustration is top-notch, as well. Russell Asplund (Three Posts?! Good heavens, I'll forfeit my lurker privileges.) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 19 Jul 2001 15:45:42 -0600 At 12:01 PM 7/19/01 -0700, you wrote: >Any comments on graphic >novels as a form--possibilities and limitations? I tend to think of them as works for readers who don't want to actually read--as crutches for the semi-literate. Now, this is just an impression, and I'm just answering a question! barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 19 Jul 2001 15:40:53 -0700 OK, Rex, when do we get to see the novelization of that post? Chris Bigelow -----Original Message----- I knew that sooner or later, the topic of "Utah Mormon Culture" was going = to=20 head its ugly rear. [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: [AML] Anti-Mormon Literature (was: Mormon Graphic Novels) Date: 19 Jul 2001 16:24:24 -0600 On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 12:01:49PM -0700, William Morris wrote: > When I was on my mission, I came across a little > comic-book pamphlet ominously titled Vizitatorii (the > Visitors). I think an investigator gave it to me. It > was part of a series of Christian (of the born-again > vareity, I believe) illustrated tracts put out by a > guy located in Chico, CA. The visitors are, of > course, LDS missionaries and the tract warns against > their evil ways--even debunking their doctrines and > exposing their methods. As a collector of anti-Mormon literature, I have a copy of the English version of "The Visitors." Chick Publications puts out these phamplets. They do not limit their attacks to Mormons; they also provide anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish pamphlets. Every pamphlet ends with the familiar "Pray to Christ and become saved" message including a multiple choice question: Did you accept Jesus as your own personal savior? Date: ____________ [ ] Yes [ ] No You can find Chick Publications online at . -- Read "The Visitors" in English at -- Read "The Visitors" in Spanish at -- Read "The Visitors" in French at -- Read . . . well, you get the point. (Sorry William, I couldn't find an Italian version online.) You can also do a search on "Mormonism" and read six articles including "Witnessing to Mormons" and "Mormon Teaching: There Is Nothing More Pagan." For a good anti-Catholic tract, read "Why Is Mary Crying" . And just for Jeff Needle: "Where's Rabbi Waxman" . Since the advent of the Internet ministry, you can't get as much good anti-Mormon literature anymore. You used to get at least two or three pieces every time you went to temple square or the Manti peagent. Maybe you have to have a twisted sense of humor, but I love the comparative literature aspects of Mormon vs. anti-Mormon literature. (Like, which document starts more out-of-context quotes directly after the word _not_?) -- Terry L Jeffress | The man who does not read good books has | no advantage over the man who can't read | them. -- Mark Twain - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 19 Jul 2001 16:37:44 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: > > > Furthermore, I don't think we should equate KSL's business > decisions with the Church's imprimatur. Since KSL televises > Jay Leno's monologues, are dirty jokes now okay with the > Church? In the eyes of the Church, is watching "Fear Factor", > "Spy TV", and "Weakest Link" an appropriate Sabbath day > activity since KSL airs them on Sunday nights? > KSL has in the past exercised editorial control over its shows. For example, it stopped showing Saturday Night Live because of content the management found offensive. I think D. Mike is right. If it shows on KSL, the Church must at least tacitly approve. -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 19 Jul 2001 18:42:06 -0400 William Morris wrote: >When I was on my mission, I came across a little >comic-book pamphlet ominously titled Vizitatorii (the >Visitors). I think an investigator gave it to me. It >was part of a series of Christian (of the born-again >vareity, I believe) illustrated tracts put out by a >guy located in Chico, CA. "The Visitors," by Jack T. Chick: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp I came across this one on my mission too. It's pretty funny. It contains the usual obfuscations, misinterpretations and opinion-as-doctrine boilerplate. >My point is that I think the epic-journey kind of >structure of the LDS mission (plus the many strange >characters one often meets in the course of doing the >work) lends itself to the graphic novel form. Anyone >else had these thoughts? Any comments on graphic >novels as a form--possibilities and limitations? A great introduction to the form is "Understanding Comics" by Scott McCloud (which is itself in book-length comic form -- since it's nonfiction it can't rightly be called a graphic "novel"): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006097625X/ And this was followed by a sequel published last year, "Reinventing Comics": http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060953500/ I can't recommend these highly enough -- and not just for those thinking about entering the field. If you've ever read a comic book, or you've ever thought about reading a comic book, or if you think you would enjoy an engaging and witty exegesis on an unfamiliar subject, these books are for you. William is right that graphic novels are expanding into challenging and difficult areas. Art Spiegelman's "Maus" is just the tip of the iceberg. I think many aspects of the Mormon experience would be well-suited to the comic format. Check out some of these for a better idea of what the form has become: "From Hell," by Alan Moore (about the Jack the Ripper slayings, soon to be a film starring Johnny Depp): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0958578346/ "Ghost World," by Daniel Clowes (disaffected teens just after high school, also soon to be a film, starring Thora Birch): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1560974273/ "Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid on Earth," by Chris Ware (a guy with a mid-life crisis reverts to adolescent power fantasies): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375404538/ The "Sandman" series, by Neil Gaiman (someone once swore to me he thought this series, taken as a whole, was the greatest literary work of the last 20 years, in any medium): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1563890119/ "The Tragical Comedy or Comical Tragedy of Mr. Punch: A Romance," also by Neil Gaiman (a shorter introduction to Gaiman's excellent work, this is a visually stunning story about a man recollecting his childhood): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1563892464/ "The Jew of New York," by Ben Katchor (a sprawling but intricate story loosely centered around an early 19th century effort to create a Jewish homeland in upstate New York): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375401040/ "A Contract With God: And Other Tenement Stories," by Will Eisner (a classic by the first master of the form): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1563896745/ "The New American Splendor Anthology," by Harvey Pekar (an anthology of slice-of-life stories and confessionals): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0941423646/ And Scott McCloud's books have lots of other great examples to check out. The graphic novel form is still in its infancy -- a thoughtful exploration of Mormon life would almost certainly be well-received. (Superhero stories still dominate, but there are some great examples of that genre as real literature as well...) Eric D. Dixon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: Re: [AML] Spring 01 (Humor) _Irreantum_ Date: 19 Jul 2001 16:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Linda, I'm grateful for your review of and response to the Humor issue. I was especially glad that you "enjoyed most of it." If every reader enjoys most of an issue, I count that as a successful effort on our part in trying to put it together. _Irreantum_ tries to appeal to the broadest possible range of Mormon readership, and by doing that, we know that some of our material may make some readers wince a little on occasion. I've also tried to understand your concerns with some of the humor in the magazine, and I've got some ideas for you to consider. I think your main concern is that some forms of humor appear to be "mean-spirited" or at someone else's expense, and you'd prefer humor to be more gentle. Humor, like most everthing, is a matter of taste I think. Some people like boiled meat and potatoes (think British), others like exotic culinary creations (think French), while others like it hot and spicy (think Mexican) (and no doubt I've offended someone with my stereotypical culinary analysis). As you indicated, comedy serves many functions. Satirists usually try to correct perceived societal misteps through ridicule, or at least, through exposing them for what they are by turning them into pratfalls that can be laughed at. And, as Twain said, nothing can withstand the assault of laughter. Satirists who aren't careful can turn in Don Rickles clones who forget their mission to correct preceived wrongs and merely take pleasure in ridiculing others. Twain himself lost his way in his later years and ridiculed the entire human race. His last writings are terribly dark. Other humorists are introspective and self-deprecating. This is a safe road to take since it is humor at your own expense. Church leaders and politicians prefer this method. Perhaps your mother might get angry at you for making fun of her child, but usually no one else will be upset. Other humorists like to share things they found funny as mere entertainment. This is my goal as a humorist. It is an observational style of humor that reflects sincere curiosity and stands in awe of the puzzles of our existence. I don't think any form of humor is per se better than any other. In fact, I think you can find most forms of it in the scriptures. Amos, the prophet, uses some sarcasm when he comes down from the hills and refers to the women of Israel as "kine" (cows!). Jesus engages in witty banter with a Samaritan women and seems pleased with her comebacks (remember the "even the dogs get the crumbs off the table" discussion?). And some of his parables are humorous (remember the one about the guy who comes over at 2 in the morning knocking on the door asking for bread--that's like prayer, Jesus says). Joseph Smith's sense of humor later in his life appears to be frequently aggressive and often full of bravado. Some people see this as evidence of arrogance on the part of the Prophet. I view it as an extension of his sense of humor.I hope to finish my essay on Joseph's sense of humor someday--I think it ran the entire gamut of humor types. I remember hearing Grant von Harrison rail against sarcasm once at BYU as a tool of satan one week, only the next week to hear Elder Hartmun G. Rector stand in Stake Conf. and make a joke about his wife's pot roast one night that he likened unto a "burnt offering." Everyone laughed, even his wife. Aslan might have even made a joke like this. And then someone gave the closing prayer, giving thanks for Elder Rector's remarks, and then proceeded to mispronounce his last name in a very funny way. Out of charity, no one laughed, but after the prayer even Elder Rector himself was smiling so wide I thougth his face would crack open at the seams. Surely God must laugh at these incidents, and I hope the angels are silent notes taking. Ed Snow ===== Read free excerpts from _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_, a Signature Books Bestseller at http://www.signaturebooks.com/bestsell.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "thomasb5" Subject: [AML] Re: Anti-Mormon Literature (was: Mormon Graphic Novels) Date: 19 Jul 2001 18:52:30 -0500 http://www.chick.com/default.asp This is the web-site address for the company that produces those tracts. I especially enjoy the one on Dungeons and Dragons. Rick - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 19 Jul 2001 21:44:38 -0500 Tracie Laulusa: Thom and Steve, very interesting observations. I heard once somewhere that a painting should 'say' something. Otherwise, you might as well snap a photo. [I] think a photographer who is an artist might take exception to this statement. Because, as in any other medium, there are photos and then there are photos. One of the most moving exhibits I have ever seen was ... _______________ Exception taken. Very nice recovery noted. Larry (hoping some day to be the maker of one of *those* photographs) Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Boyce Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 19 Jul 2001 22:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Scott Card's "Magic Mirror" is a step in that direction. True, while it may not be strictly Mormon-oriented and more of a fairy tale book for adults, I think that it may show us a glimpse of what is possible for a Mormon graphic novel. On a lighter note, as for that pamphlet you read, "The Visitors" as I think it was titled in english (or Jerseyese :) I did hear about it while on my mission. While I never read that one, I did read others by the same group and there were missionaries in my mission that did. According to them, at the end, one of the missionaries addresses the other by his first name. I find that funny because during my mission, I don't recall ever calling any of my companions anything other than "Elder, "Elder [their last name]," or maybe even just their last name. In fact, when one of my companions wrote me after my mission (and before the end of his), he could not remember my first name. David Boyce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 20 Jul 2001 01:10:19 -0500 At 02:01 PM 7/19/01, William Morris wrote: >One of my Mormon literary interests is considering >forms of writing that may be particularly suited to >capturing Mormon philosophy and culture. I've floated >two of those ideas to the list already---parables and >collaborative writing. Here's the next one: graphic >novels. > >In particular, I think that it would be a fascinating >way of capturing the experience of LDS >missionaries---a way that could enlarge the genre of >the missionary story. > >When I was on my mission, I came across a little >comic-book pamphlet ominously titled Vizitatorii (the >Visitors). I think an investigator gave it to me. It >was part of a series of Christian (of the born-again >vareity, I believe) illustrated tracts put out by a >guy located in Chico, CA. The visitors are, of >course, LDS missionaries and the tract warns against >their evil ways--even debunking their doctrines and >exposing their methods. > >The basic plot: an older women is falling under the >influence of the elders. Her young, attractive, >college student niece appears one day and takes the >elders apart using 'logic' and bible verses. The >illustrations are actually quite good. I recall one >panel where one of the elders faces is completely >tensed and the sweat is streaming down his forehead. > >The ending is hilarious. As the two defeated elders >walk away, one of them begins to express doubt---the >other threatens to tell the mission president (I >forget what term was used) who would send the doubter >off to 're-education camp' (the MTC). Sounds like fun. Wish I could see it. >So I began by thinking of how one would do a parody of >Vizitatorii, but then that seemed hard because it was >already kind of a parody, I frequently come up with parodies of the reactions "born-agains" have to LDS. On rare occasions, I even share them, like the time some born-agains complained about LDS seeming to put more emphasis on Joseph Smith's birthday than Christmas, so I posted a description of how I had my home and yard decorated that year for Smithmas, including a 50-foot statue of the prophet decked out with thousands of blinking lights and a sound system continually blasting out excerpts from his sermons . . . >but then I turned to >thoughts of Art Speigelmann's _Maus: A Survivor's >Tale_ which I haven't read all the way through yet but >have read a lot about... > >My point is that I think the epic-journey kind of >structure of the LDS mission (plus the many strange >characters one often meets in the course of doing the >work) lends itself to the graphic novel form. Anyone >else had these thoughts? Any comments on graphic >novels as a form--possibilities and limitations? Of course, one problem is that you might get the same reaction that some had when _The Leading Edge_ published a graphic story for the first time: some members of the staff (I will name no names, though many here would recognize them), upon seeing "GRAPHIC STORY" in the list of stories scheduled to appear in the next issue, expressed their discomfort that we were about to publish a story with explicit sex, violence, and cussin' . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: RE: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 20 Jul 2001 01:12:34 -0500 At 02:18 PM 7/19/01, Russell Asplund confessed: >Okay, I have lived in Utah for all of my life that I can remember. My family >history with the church stretches back for generations. And yet, I am a >middling liberal democrat, like to dye my hair odd colors--or shave it off >entirely at present. I voted Republican in the last election, and I paint my face green for St. Patrick's day. Your point? ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 20 Jul 2001 01:20:33 -0500 I think the mission of my writing must be to redeem the dead, as they are apparently the only ones reading any of it . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 20 Jul 2001 08:43:01 -0400 Thanks for your observations, Rex. I'm from the Columbus OH area--in the Columbus OH Stake. Westerville has a bit of a reputation all over the region as being a tough ward to live in--Westerville 1st that is. I've heard that Westerville 2nd is quite different. A further not on the differing cultures here within this tri-stake area....A friend of mine who moved into the area last summer has an opportunity to work with all three stakes. He said they all have very different 'personalities'. One stake, according to his observations, has a very white-shirt-and-tie mentality. Walk the walk, talk the talk, dress the dress (quite literally white shirt and tie, no facial hair), a little on the uptight side, very much the 'we hold the priesthood' in solemn tones from the priesthood leadership type of speech. One of the other stakes has a more laid back feel to it. The stake presidency even wears non-white shirts. (My friend feel that there is a correlation between the dress and the attitude.) There is a more open, caring, intellectual progressive feeling to the stake--and more facial hair. He contributes some of this to the presence of OSU in the stake boundaries. The other stake he feels, if I remember right because this is the stake I'm least familiar with, had a more rural feel even though it about the same proportion of city wards to rural wards as the other stakes do. I remember when we moved here about 11 years ago feeling a bit of Mormon culture shock. We had moved here after spending several years in New Jersey and neither my husband or I are from UT (though we attended BYU). But we felt that Mormon culture in our particular ward was very different from other areas we had lived in. We talked about it a lot at the time. Some things that made a difference were that there were far fewer college educated people than other wards we had lived in. There were a lot of converts. Some of them had been members for a long time--back to the days when there was one ward in Columbus, but they had never lived any where but here. In our ward there are not any UT transplants. There were not very many people our same age and situation. There are a lot of people just older and just younger but in NJ there had been a whole segment of the ward 'just like us'--BYU grads, married with kids, doing the high tech thing. There are other wards in Columbus that are more similar to the wards we had lived in before, but ours isn't. We've grown to like it, but I remember a couple very lonely years of adjustment. Yet, isn't that one of the reasons we read? Or at least, it's one of the reasons I read. I want to find out about people who are different, and yet the same. About their experiences, about the things that happen to them. But it seems to me, that at least some of us--meaning Mormons--think there is just one 'right' way to be and we don't want to read or write--well, maybe it's the readers more than the writers--about a Mormon culture that doesn't represent that 'right' way to be. Somehow, coming from that mentality, if it's not this mythical 'right' way than it diminishes the truth and fulness of the gospel that we wonderful Mormons are suppose to bless the world with. (Rex, did you happen to know the Riquinos?) Tracie Laulusa ----- Original Message ----- > > Since becoming an adult, I settled mainly in the Portland, Oregon area, > where I live now. What began to change my mind was a four-year relocation to > Columbus, Ohio. I started to see that what I thought was a Utah Mormon > culture was merely a stereotype that some of us outside of Utah believe in > but is not necessarily true. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN 2001 Awards of Excellence: Mormon History Association Press Release Date: 19 Jul 2001 21:30:13 -0500 Release 16Jul01 A2 [From Mormon News] The Mormon History Association 2001 Awards of Excellence CEDAR CITY, UTAH -- The following awards were presented at the Mormon History Association's annual conference in Cedar City on May 18th: The Leonard J. Arrington Award for a Distinctive Contribution to the Cause of Mormon History LaMar C. Berrett * * * * The Mormon History Association Best Book Award Jan Shipps "Sojourner in the Promised Land, Forty Years among the Mormons" University of Illinois Press * * * * The Mormon History Association Best First Book Award Jorge Iber "Hispanics in the Mormon Zion, 1912-1999" Texas A & M Press * * * * Steven E. Christensen Award for Best Documentary David Bigler & Will Bagley "Army of Israel, Mormon Battalion Narratives" Arthur H. Clark Press * * * * Ella Larsen Turner Award for Best Biography Martha Sonntag Bradley Mary Brown Firmage Woodward "Four Zinas, a Story of Mothers and Daughters on the Mormon Frontier" Signature Books * * * * The T. Edgar Lyon Award for Best Article of the Year Eugene England "The Place of David 0. McKay in Mormon Culture" Sunstone, No. 117 (May 2000): 19-27 * * * * The T. Edgar Lyon Award of Excellence Barbara J. Bernauer "Gathering the Remnants: Establishing the RLDS Church in Southwestern Iowa" John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 20 (2000): 5-33 * * * * The T. Edgar Lyon Award of Excellence Scott H. Faulring "The Return of Oliver Cowdery," in The Disciple as Witness: Essays on Latter-day Saint History and Doctrine in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson, ed. Stephen D. Ricks, Donald W. Parry, and Andrew H. Hedges Provo, UT. FARMS, 2000), 117-73 * * * * The Juanita Brooks Award for Best Graduate Paper W. Paul Reeve "To Hold in Check Outside Influences:' Making Space for Mormons, Miners, and Piutes on the Southwest Mormon Frontier." W. Paul Reeve is a graduate student at the University of Utah. * * * * The Juanita Brooks Award for Best Undergraduate Paper Matthew Grow "Parley P. Pratt and the San Francisco Press, 1851-1855" Matthew Grow is a student at Brigham Young University * * * * The Thomas L. Kane Award Anatoly M. Kolodny Kiev, Ukraine * * * * Special Citation Ronald Walker, David Whittaker, James Allen "Studies in Mormon History, 1830-1997, an Indexed Bibliography" University of Illinois Press >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Re: Anti-Mormon Literature (was: Mormon Graphic Novels) Date: 20 Jul 2001 09:31:26 -0600 (MDT) > The ending is hilarious. As the two defeated elders > walk away, one of them begins to express doubt---the > other threatens to tell the mission president (I > forget what term was used) who would send the doubter > off to 're-education camp' (the MTC). > ~~William Morris and the "faithful" missionary decides to give the ladies names to the temple workers so they can put a curse on her. quite a funny comic that showed very little understanding of how Mormonsim was. It was part of the "Chic" comics - all made by one guy (whose name is Chic) and are very evangelical in flavor (one comic features a sheriff chaisng a convicted murderer on the lam - they both die in the course of events, but the Murderer accepts Jesus moments before he dies, and the Sheriff was a good man, but had never accepted Jesus into his soul. So, or course, the Sheriff goes to Hell and the murderer goes to heaven). There are some fun ones - "How to get rich and stay that way" is particularly clever. Others are far too predictable - the pope is, of course, the anti-christ, the beast who will rule the world in the last days, etc. Interesting stuff. --Ivan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 20 Jul 2001 09:57:03 -0600 Interesting discussion here. One quick response, from a real smart old = Greek guy: "It is also clear that the poet's job is not to report what has happened, = but what is likely to happen: that is, what is capable of happening = according to the laws of probability and necessity . . . the historian = talks of what has happened, the poet of the kind of thing that can = happen." Aristotle, The Poetics, Book IX, translation Gerald Else. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] Spectrum of LDS authors Date: 20 Jul 2001 15:10:11 -0600 I'm working on an Irreantum promotional flyer, and I have nine author photos reflecting the interviews we've done so far. They are appearing together in a straight horizontal line of 9 photos. I thought it would be fun to subtly rank them in order from left to right, under the headline, "Our interviews cover the full cultural spectrum." I've made some notes about my rationale. Your comments on anything related to this ordering would be welcome. >From left to right: Robert Van Wagoner (explicit, unflattering Mormon elements, public statements of inactivity) Robert Kirby (explicit Mormon elements, publicly active but humor mainly iconoclastic) Mary Clyde (literary work, not explicitly Mormon) Dave Wolverton (mass market work, not explicitly Mormon) Richard Dutcher (independent work, explicitly Mormon) Margaret Young (current Deseret Book author, earlier edgier stuff) Anne Perry (mass market work not explicitly Mormon, but Tathea) Rachel Nunes (Covenant romance novelist) Dean Hughes (Deseret Book historical novelist) Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 20 Jul 2001 10:09:35 -0600 Anna Wight wrote: >Utah Saints are in a different culture than Saints in >the rest of the world. Absolutely true. And equally untrue. I'm from Indiana. I now live in Utah, and my kids are in school in Utah. = I've lived lots of places; I now live here. There are some differences. = The big ones are these: the percentage of kids who are sexually active is = a little higher in Utah than elsewhere, the percentage of kids who do = drugs is about the same, the percentage of kids who LOOK LIKE they're = sexually active or doing drugs is quite a bit higher elsewhere. Kids in = Utah are a little better at hiding it, in other words. That's the main = difference. I have no data to confirm this; I'm talking purely subjective = impressions. But polling data that suggests that Utah teens are much less = sexually active than kids elsewhere merely suggests to me that Utah teens = are a bit more prone to lie to pollsters. My son is a good kid, preparing = for his mission, BYU student, a solid kid. I look at his twenty closest = friends, and their lives are every bit as much the hormonally driven soap = opera high school is for my friends' kids living in Indiana, California, = New York, Pennsylvania. =20 >Sure those in Utah have mass media. But they also have an LDS church >on >every corner, temples within half an hour of each other, news that = >>centers >around the church, schools where most of the other students are LDS, = >and >school teachers who are their church leaders. LDS isn't the subculture, = it >is the culture. All true. And the good, sane, moral advice of church leaders goes in one = teenage ear and out the other at about the same rate in Catholic schools, = or Methodist Sunday Schools, as in Mormondom. >The rest of the world has their LDS students in a tiny minority in = schools. >Which means that they're friends come from very different values and >backgrounds. LDS kids are strange. The active ones don't drink, smoke = or >are sexually active. . . . . . . out where everyone can see them. My Southern Baptist friends in = Indiana had parents as strict as mine, and standards as high. =20 >This makes them different. They are surrounded on all >sides by things that are foreign to the things they are taught at church = >and >home. A Mormon outside Utah is different. No question. You do sense a = difference. But I find Provo HS as scary as my parents found Bloomington = South. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 20 Jul 2001 10:16:49 -0600 >So, do we, as Mormon writers have any obligation to try and fulfill any = of=20 >those mission statements? (regarding the three-fold mission of the = Church). Terrific question. My response is this: of course we do. It's just that = the central paradox of art is that the more blatantly we try to do those = three things, the less likely we'll be to succeed. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: [AML] Freelance Writers--Help! Date: 20 Jul 2001 13:32:41 -0600 Ok, guys, another question from the newbie: I'm responding to a call for resumes/proposals for a new book called "A Parent's Guide to Seattle." In their proposal guidelines they ask that you specify a target completion date. Having never written one of these lovelies I have no idea what would be a decent date and what would be completely laughable. Any ideas???? Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] re: Huebener Date: 20 Jul 2001 21:20:54 +0000 Another play based on the Huebener story is Neal Chandler's _Appeal to a Lower Court_, which appeared in Sunstone, December 1990. It tells a fictionalized form of the story from the Branch President's point of view. Andrew Hall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kent Larsen (by way of Ronn Blankenship ) Subject: [AML] MN Internet: EFY, YW and More Personal Pages: Kent Larsen Date: 20 Jul 2001 02:49:02 -0500 From Mormon-News: See footer for instructions on joining and leaving this list. Do you have an opinion on this news item? Send your comment to letters.to.editor@MormonsToday.com Newly Listed Mormon Websites: Clean Romance.com http://www.cleanromance.com/ Electronic publisher specializing in the romance genre, but without graphic sex, language and violence sometimes found in mainstream novels. Website, which currently has some html errors, has page for LDS-specific novels. Currently includes two LDS novels by C. Leeann Hansen. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 20 Jul 2001 09:49:04 -0600 Thanks to Jacob's patient and generous post, I've been wracking my brains = to think of books we shouldn't read, or that I shouldn't read. So here's = the question: are there any books that are just flat evil and that we = just flat shouldn't ever read, ever? Trying to think of some, one obvious example is The Turner Diaries. It's = a novel, a favorite of the Klan and the militia right, and the all-time = favorite book of Timothy McVeigh. All my concerns about judging others = vanished when I read that sucker. It's clearly, obviously and intentionall= y racist, and clearly, obviously and intentionally advocates murder. It's = also atrociously written. It may be the worst book ever. It's fairly = pornographic--at least, it includes a graphic sex scene, maybe the worst = written part of the whole book. I suspect that it's exactly what the = Book of Mormon means by the kinds of books that got the Gadiantons going. = =20 I read it, and I'm glad I did. I think you have to read it if you want to = write about the Klan, which I'm kind of interested in doing. I grew up in = Southern Indiana, and I knew people in high school who were in the Klan. = I'd like to write about the Klan in something other than a 'the-bad-guys-or= -sick-joke-in-a-thriller-or-comedy sense. Okay, so I read it in order to = research a subject. If I had a weakness in that area, if I were prone to = that particular kind of racism, then I probably shouldn't read it. I = think the world would have been a better place had Timothy McVeigh not = read it. =20 I don't think it's possible for a book to be evil, but if it were = possible, this would come as close to qualifying as anything. Well, Mein = Kampf lead to evil, persuaded men to do evil. So did Das Kapital. So, = okay. =20 Except that I've read them all. I've read The Turner Diaries, I've read = Das Kapital in translation and I've read as much of Mein Kampf as I could = stomach, and can't believe that someone had the tenacity and patience to = actually translate it to English. And they didn't do evil to me, at least = that I'm aware of. I'm glad I read them all. I learned a lot from them. = I didn't agree with a single paragraph of Mein Kampf, but I learned a lot = about the ways in wihich an insidious bad idea can lead to other, worse = ideas. Great book about the persuasive process of bad logic. =20 Now these are the three most evil books I can think of, and I've read them = all, and not only don't regret reading them, but am glad I did and think I = learned a lot from them. And so here's my larger point. Our reaction to any work of art, any piece of writing, is governed by = agency. I do not believe that are any books we shouldn't read. But there = are certainly books we shouldn't read in certain ways, with certain = intentions, with certain outcomes. Books can be an occasion for temptation= and sin, just like any conversation or letter or e-mail can be an = occasion for sin. Just like a sacrament meeting talk can become an = occasion for sin. (Aside: at the four theatres run by the Royal Shakespear= e Company, in the men's room, they have condom machines. Apparently, some = people get turned on by seeing Shakespeare performed. Presumably, some of = those same people commit sexual acts outside the bonds of marriage. Does = that mean that seeing excellent performances of Shakespeare's plays = automatically leads people to commit illicit sex acts?) But that doesn't = mean that there are any forms of communication we should avoid. =20 Does that include pornography? Certainly it does. I don't know much = about child pornography, but I know that it can lead to the most horrendous= crimes against children, and I know that there are people who become = experts in it in order to catch those criminals. Can we say this? (I'm = about ready to.) All forms of communication, all art, without exception, = can result, can prompt good. And can also prompt evil, too, if we let it. So let's not focus on what we shouldn't see or read. Let's focus on how = to read or see it. Eric Samuelsen =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 21 Jul 2001 00:40:23 -0600 On Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:01:49 -0700 (PDT), William Morris wrote: >One of my Mormon literary interests is considering >forms of writing that may be particularly suited to >capturing Mormon philosophy and culture. I've floated >two of those ideas to the list already---parables and >collaborative writing. Here's the next one: graphic >novels. > >In particular, I think that it would be a fascinating >way of capturing the experience of LDS >missionaries---a way that could enlarge the genre of >the missionary story. Eric Dixon has already cited Scott McCloud's _Understanding Comics_ and _Reinventing Comics_ for engaging, insightful commentary on the potential= of the graphic novel form. I couldn't agree more. One of McCloud's points about the form is that they've been unnaturally tied to the superhero = genre, to the point that it's hard for many people to imagine comics about = anything other than superheroes. Historically, though, almost every genre was represented--crime stories, romances, horror, historical, confessional...it's a medium for telling stories just like movies. Would you expect every movie made today to be a Western, just because lots of early movies were Westerns? Even the traditional superhero story is = being subverted today--take a look at Frank Miller's _The Dark Knight Returns_,= or Alan Moore's _Watchmen_, or _Kingdom Come_ by Alex Ross and...I can't remember the other guy's name. Whew. Now my shameful secret is out--I = was, and still am, a comic book addict. And I'm a GIRL. (It didn't help that= we just saw Unbreakable tonight.) I think we have the elements for Mormon graphic novels, but they haven't been assembled. We already have writers. We already have artists. We = just need to convince them to work together. Neil Gaiman, for instance, = writes very detailed scripts for his work that are a lot like movie scripts; = then he has artists execute his vision. Other writers work differently, but = in many cases it's a collaborative effort. So if you're a writer with an = idea but no artistic talent, maybe you need to pair up with an artist who = doesn't know how to plot a story. But then you have to convince people like Barbara that it's a legitimate literary form. :) (You wouldn't let me get away with saying that romance novels are crutches for women who can't face reality, would you? You'd = tell me that I didn't understand the genre and that I should read some and correct my misapprehension. Strangely enough, I think the romance genre = has been as much maligned as comics, and for similar reasons: each has its = share of hack writers churning out potboilers, each has a negative stereotype among non-readers.) Not that I'm maligning Barbara for what I think is a natural and understandable impression. As they learn to read, kids = progress from picture-heavy books to books whose only illustration is cover art. Comics seem like a regression in that respect. Heaven forbid that ten-year-old kids should still be reading only "picture books," let alone something with a title like "Voltarr the Mutant Killer Space Android from Beyond the Grave." My homeschool curriculum has a little sentence in the section on teaching children to read that says "comic books do NOT count as free reading = time." Graphic novels are not a replacement for text-based stories. They are something different. I can't use myself as an example of "see I read = comics and I'm still literate" because I was reading regular books for years = before I started reading comics, and the concern is that comics don't help = people who are struggling with reading read better any more than watching a lot = of television does. But here's the second stereotype graphic novels have to contend with: Comic books are for kids. It's not true. I really = recommend that everyone try to find a copy of _Maus: A Survivor's Tale_ and its = sequel (_Maus II: and here my troubles began_). These are not kiddie books. = These are adult stories, and powerful ones. I guess when William says that the graphic novel form would be a good = tool to capture the LDS missionary experience, I agree, but it doesn't make a = lot of sense because to my mind ALL subjects are well-served by this format. Any story you can think to tell can be told in comic book form. (Though it's a measure of the power of the superhero stereotype that even I, the avowed addict, didn't consider the possibility of LDS graphic novels.) I think 'missionary comics' are an intriguing idea. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 20 Jul 2001 15:25:46 -0700 (PDT) --- Barbara Hume wrote: > At 12:01 PM 7/19/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Any comments on graphic > >novels as a form--possibilities and limitations? > > I tend to think of them as works for readers who > don't want to actually > read--as crutches for the semi-literate. Now, this > is just an impression, > and I'm just answering a question! > > barbara hume > Barbara-- Let me try again and see if I can adequately explain why the idea is interesting to me and should be interesting to other literary artists: First off, let me say that I'm not a rabid graphic novel fan, and as I admitted in my initial post, I don't know much about the genre---except that I've been reading articles and reviews in the past couple of years that treat a new batch of graphic novel (emphasis on novel) writers as serious, literary storytellers. If it helps at all, think about the works of William Blake. Actually that may not be a good example because his work, unfortunately, is too often taught without the illustrations, but to get back to my example: The words and illustrations in Blake's works are interdependent. The meaning flows from both. Now, I'm not an expert on Blake, so specific examples are failing to come to mind [Aside: for examples of Blake's work that includes the illustration see http://www.blakearchive.org/main.html]. All I remember is reading _America a Prophecy_ and being inspired by the way the illustrations and text portray the dangers and promises of democracy (as Blake saw them). Now Blake is an unfair example to use because his wild genius is something quite rare (and, to be frank, sometimes quite incoherent), but I think the principle stands. With an epic story that transcends material history (even dimensions--or however you want to explain the notions of the pre-existence and the spirit world), it seems to me like the medium of illustration mixed with text is well-suited to portraying aspects of Mormon culture, history and theology. Plus, Blake was a self-publisher. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 20 Jul 2001 15:29:53 -0700 It is interesting to read this since we are taking our son to the MTC next week to go on his mission to Columbus, Ohio. Jerry Tyner -----Original Message----- Thanks for your observations, Rex. I'm from the Columbus OH area--in the Columbus OH Stake. [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 20 Jul 2001 16:17:41 -0600 I've thought along these same lines. Following is how I've posed the questions on a wish-list of questions I would ask Pres. Hinckley or another GA in an interview. My personal biases are pretty clear in the way I've worded the questions. Let's talk about the role of the creative literary arts as it relates to the mission of the Church. As far as "proclaiming the gospel," what do you think about efforts to present Mormon stories to a national audience? Must such attempts be missionary-minded, or is it valid to aim to portray the Mormon experience more accurately and realistically, with hopes that people will grow in appreciation of us as fellow human beings? As far as "perfecting the Saints," what role can literature play in helping us understand and avoid pitfalls in life? With that goal in mind, is it advisable to take morally challenging journeys through literature? As Latter-day Saints, we seem to allow non-Mormon writers, such as Shakespeare, to delve into darker, earthier material than we tolerate from our own authors. We easily embrace stories about faithful people dealing with adversity that comes from outside themselves, such as persecution or illness or the elements, but we get uncomfortable with literature that examines flaws and limitations within the Mormon culture or within Mormon individuals. Is it possible for our writers to depict something bad and have the end result be good? [I think I got the wording of that last line from someone else's AML-List post.] Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: [AML] KSL and the Church (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 20 Jul 2001 22:39:33 >Chris Grant wrote: > > > > > > Furthermore, I don't think we should equate KSL's business > > decisions with the Church's imprimatur. Since KSL televises > > Jay Leno's monologues, are dirty jokes now okay with the > > Church? In the eyes of the Church, is watching "Fear Factor", > > "Spy TV", and "Weakest Link" an appropriate Sabbath day > > activity since KSL airs them on Sunday nights? > > > Thom Duncan: >KSL has in the past exercised editorial control over its shows. For >example, it stopped showing Saturday Night Live because of content the >management found offensive. > Not entirely correct, from my understanding. KSL and KUTV swapped affiliates a few years ago: KSL had been CBS and KUTV was NBC, and then they traded. (Well, it's more complicated than that, but that was the upshot.) When KSL became an NBC affiliate, that meant they should take on "Saturday Night Live" along with all the other NBC programs. But KSL already had some Saturday night sports or fishing show, or something, that did well for them -- plus, "SNL" had been dropping considerably in the ratings lately. (This was during the down period of 1994 or 1995, I believe.) So KUTV agreed to keep showing "SNL" for a while, even though it was now a CBS affiliate. Once that time ran out -- a year or so -- they stopped showing it, and KSL had no interest in picking it up, so it went away altogether. The content of "SNL" may have been a factor in KSL not wanting to show it, but everything I ever heard them say had more to do with ratings and stuff. It hardly makes sense for it to have been just a content thing, though, since NBC has prime-time shows that are nearly as suggestive that still make it on the air. All of this is reason No. 1 why the church should get out of the TV business. As has been pointed out, KSL airing a show almost makes it seem like the church is approving of that show, when of course no church officials are previewing the programs before they air. It's an uncomfortable mix of business and religion. It results in a watered-down TV station ("SNL" is an extremely high-quality program these days, and KSL is missing out), and a church that sometimes gets embarrassed over what it's "endorsing." Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Mormon Literature Date: 20 Jul 2001 16:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Thanks to Eric, Terry, and Ivan for the references to Chic. And especially to Eric for the excellent introductions to the world of graphic novels. After the diatribe on Blake in my last post, I will now cede the floor to those who know more about the subject. But one last comment about "The Visitors." I went to the Web site and read it in English and at the end the one Elder says that the other will be "shipped off to Timbuktu." I wondered if my memory was faulty, but then found that the site also had the Romanian (not Italian, Terry, but that's cool--the first Romanian Elders were flown over from Italy and the languages are somewhat similar. In fact, Romanian is the closest living language to Latin---articles at the ends of words and all that) version. I was not mistaken. It really does say 're-education center.' As you have probably already guess---this is not a simple translation change. The term has more sinister implications in Romanian, naturally, because of the way Communism tainted the language. In fact, more than once, investigators told me that testimony meeting was not only uncomfortable because of the implications of the word 'testimony'{marturie), but the form itself was too much like party meetings where people felt pressure to get up and sing the praises of Ceaucescu. Of course, most folks, even those who didn't join, embraced the discourse and terminology of the LDS Church. For most it was refreshing to speak in that way and have true feeling behind it. Now, I know of no instances where Anti-Mormon literature actually harmed the work in Romania, but I must say that Chic's translation program is quite impressive (in number of languages covered--not in the actual quality of the translations). ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Rex Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 20 Jul 2001 17:37:11 -0600 Terry, I think the threefold mission of Mormon writers could be described as: 1. Exhume the Dead 2. Stretch the Gospel 3. Disturb the Perfect Saints Explanation: The Dead we have with us always, and we can always drum up new ways to interpret the past. History is always changing and we can give new perspectives on the crimes, punishments, heroism, error, war, tragedy, comedy, etc. New York, Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, The migration west, later migrations, Mountain Meadows, Johnson's army, Mormon Battalion, polygamy, Missions, etc. Different biographies of saints from Rockwell, Gilmore, Hoffman, Widstoe, Fletcher, Romney, Columbus, Washington, Jefferson, Clark, Brigham Young to Phineas Young to Steve Young to Margaret Young to Wee B. Young. Wait--Steve and Margaret are still with us--oh, well, write the book and wait. Stretching the Gospel into new nations, kindreds, tongues, peoples, families, galaxies, dysfunctional families, conflicts, tribes. Or write about the Gospel in fantasy worlds, future worlds, future species, etc. It seems the Gospel and the Spirit touch people no matter what culture and changes them. The question is--into what new life form are they changed? Not the old, but not the form of their elders either? And how is change to be accomplished? Of course this may be based on their personality, experiences with persecution, etc. Either "realism" or "fantasy" could work. Both have limitations. Disturbing the Perfect Saints. Although I don't relate to much of Levi Peterson's writing, I think the short story, "The Christening of Cobern Heights," is a beautiful example of this point. The difficulty comes because the perfect saints are not likely to read Levi. The question becomes: How can Gerald Lund do this in a nice (correlated) way? Disclaimer: by "Perfect Saints" I mean those of us striving for perfection and need the occasional kick upside the head. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 20 Jul 2001 17:45:17 -0600 ---Original Message From: Eric R. Samuelsen >Thanks to Jacob's patient and generous post, I've been >wracking my brains to think of books we shouldn't read, or >that I shouldn't read. So here's the question: are there any >books that are just flat evil and that we just flat shouldn't >ever read, ever? Define we. Is this a personal we or a societal one? I don't think *any* book can corrupt a pure soul any more than music or movies can. I'm not prepared to say that there is any book that should never, under any circumstance be read because it can corrupt any person on Earth who read it. Such a book doesn't exist. But, on the same level, there is no such thing as the incorruptible person, either. Anyone who believes that no work in the world can harm them needs to watch their pride (unless their calling and election has been made sure). Art is the vehicle for ideas. Ideas don't *have* to equal sin, but ideas can certainly equal temptation. Art won't make us sin, but we need to be aware of the temptation. >Now these are the three most evil books I can think of, and >I've read them all, and not only don't regret reading them, >but am glad I did and think I learned a lot from them. And so >here's my larger point. > >Our reaction to any work of art, any piece of writing, is >governed by agency. I do not believe that are any books we >shouldn't read. But there are certainly books we shouldn't >read in certain ways, with certain intentions, with certain >outcomes. Books can be an occasion for temptation and sin, >just like any conversation or letter or e-mail can be an >occasion for sin. Just like a sacrament meeting talk can >become an occasion for sin. > >Does that include pornography? Certainly it does. I don't >know much about child pornography, but I know that it can lead >to the most horrendous crimes against children, and I know >that there are people who become experts in it in order to >catch those criminals. Can we say this? (I'm about ready >to.) All forms of communication, all art, without exception, >can result, can prompt good. And can also prompt evil, too, >if we let it. Again, I want to draw the distinction between personal and societal consumption. While individuals might be affected for good or evil depending on their agency, we need to deal with the effects of certain works on our society as well. So while it is certainly true that any work can be used for good or evil, there is a very real difference in degree that is important. Some books are better at prompting to do good than others. The reverse is true as well. A good example is stuff published by NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association). They publish tracts that describe how to perpetrate evil. Who to target, how to target them, how to defend against being prosecuted for your evil. I think that the publishing of that information should be illegal and that anyone who could write it should be put under serious, constant observation and ostracized by their neighbors. Law enforcement officers should have access to read the materials, but I don't want anyone else to do so, ever. I'm not prepared to condemn specific individuals who would read that filth because there are a lot of reasons to read anything (though certainly I would wonder about their motives and take my evaluation into account in my dealings with them). I am fully prepared to condemn the writer and publisher, however, and to authorize the power of the law to stop them. There is such a limited good use for the materials and such huge evil use of it that I don't want it generally available. I cannot depend on self-policing to limit the evils of their materials and am happy to resort to the hand of government to limit that material (which explains why I am an EX-libertarian). What about the argument that parents and teachers could use this material to help protect children? This benefit is so small that I can't take it seriously. We already know the steps needed to keep our kids safe from sexual predators. Those steps aren't secret and have been known for millennia. Sometimes, we need to update our methods (like recognizing the need to supervise our children in new public arenas like the internet), but the basics haven't changed in ages. >So let's not focus on what we shouldn't see or read. Let's >focus on how to read or see it. This is a good principle individually. I think we pretty much agree with respect to individual preferences. But I think there is a public policy level that is important to consider when we discuss art and the effects of art on consumers. A line needs to be drawn on a public level about what we want generally available. I think that line should be carefully considered and I give weight to a concern I detect in others that the line could be drawn too narrowly. I'm not prepared to go the route that anything that *can* do evil should be banned, shunned or avoided. Personally, I think a good point for public censure is when the only possible good of a work is to learn how to counter those who would perpetrate that evil. That's a sure sign of a work that needs censure. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Freelance Writers--Help! Date: 20 Jul 2001 18:06:54 -0500 At 02:32 PM 7/20/01, you wrote: >Ok, guys, another question from the newbie: > >I'm responding to a call for resumes/proposals for a new book called "A >Parent's Guide to Seattle." In their proposal guidelines they ask that >you specify a target completion date. Having never written one of these >lovelies I have no idea what would be a decent date and what would be >completely laughable. Any ideas???? > >Marianne Hales Harding The general guide to finding out how long a project will _really_ take is to make the best estimate you can, double it, then change to the next higher time unit. For example, if you estimate that a particular project can be completed in one week, better allow at least two months . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 20 Jul 2001 17:55:17 -0500 At 04:45 PM 7/19/01, you wrote: >At 12:01 PM 7/19/01 -0700, you wrote: >>Any comments on graphic >>novels as a form--possibilities and limitations? > >I tend to think of them as works for readers who don't want to actually=20 >read--as crutches for the semi-literate. Now, this is just an impression,= =20 >and I'm just answering a question! > >barbara hume OTOH, some studies (no, I don't have any links handy to share at the=20 moment) have shown that comic books can get kids interested in=20 reading. _Some_ of them do contain some fairly sophisticated words and=20 ideas (though the genre is certainly not immune from Sturgeon's=20 Law). Personally, I would credit some of the superhero=99 comics of the=20 early sixties or so, which frequently had stories by such authors as Otto=20 Binder and Edmond Hamilton, among others, as helping lead me on to science= =20 fiction novels. (Though I know that many English teachers would not=20 consider that a good thing, e.g. the one I had in 10th grade, who, after=20 she asked me what kind of books I liked to read and hearing my answer of=20 "science fiction," replied, "That's not the kind of answer I'd expect from= =20 an English 10X [i.e,. advanced placement] student." ) (=99 denotes a registered trademark of DC and Marvel Comics, Inc.) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 20 Jul 2001 18:25:46 -0600 ----Original Message From: Eric R. Samuelsen >Anna Wight wrote: > >>Utah Saints are in a different culture than Saints in >>the rest of the world. > >Absolutely true. And equally untrue. > >I'm from Indiana. I now live in Utah, and my kids are in >school in Utah. I've lived lots of places; I now live here. >There are some differences. The big ones are these: the >percentage of kids who are sexually active is a little higher >in Utah than elsewhere, the percentage of kids who do drugs is >about the same, the percentage of kids who LOOK LIKE they're >sexually active or doing drugs is quite a bit higher >elsewhere. Kids in Utah are a little better at hiding it, in >other words. That's the main difference. I have no data to >confirm this; I'm talking purely subjective impressions. But >polling data that suggests that Utah teens are much less >sexually active than kids elsewhere merely suggests to me that >Utah teens are a bit more prone to lie to pollsters. My son >is a good kid, preparing for his mission, BYU student, a solid >kid. I look at his twenty closest friends, and their lives >are every bit as much the hormonally driven soap opera high >school is for my friends' kids living in Indiana, California, >New York, Pennsylvania. I'll second Eric's observation with my own, though I'd like to add to it. First, this tendency to hide immoral activities can be a benefit to some teens. I went to High School in Phoenix Arizona where I was one of only two *visible* LDS youth in my High School (and the other was a nut). For spring break my Senior year, I visited a friend in Orem and attended Mountain View for three days (they only had two days off for spring break). During my three days visiting Mountain View classrooms, I saw drug deals go down, fights break out, and other activities that I knew about from my own High School in Phoenix. However, the friends I was visiting were *not aware* of those activities. They didn't know what marijuana looked like because they weren't confronted by it. They didn't realize that the two cowboys in a corner passing a bag of white powder could be anything significant. In my head, bags of white powder changing hands was something to flag in your head as something to avoid because of the potential for danger, they had no such association and didn't even notice. The same elements may be present, and even prevalent, but a certain degree of knowing about it is voluntary (or at least, it was 14 years ago). When I told my friends about my observation at their school, they seriously did not care to know what I was telling them. They didn't want to learn to look for what I was seeing because, unlike me in my High School in Phoenix, they didn't anticipate any danger from *not* knowing. Innocent Utah teens can forgo a level of knowledge--an option that I was denied by living in Phoenix. There is another difference than just that immorality tends to hide. I have found that at the same time that Utah has a visible Mormon element, it also has a visible (and active) anti-Mormon element. One of the things that shocked me when I moved here two years ago is how pronounced the anti-Mormon element is. Having lived in Arizona and Washington state for the prior five years, I was unprepared for that difference. In other states, I never found any actual antagonism for my beliefs. When my religious affiliation was revealed, most were indifferent though some were curious. In Utah, my religious affiliation has lead to actual confrontation and threatened violence. In Utah, you don't have to learn specifics about immorality because good and bad kids tend to group up based on religious lines (you don't have to learn to steer clear of drug dealers, you can simply steer clear of non-seminary students--if a seminary student will deal drugs, they'll hide it). I also recently learned of the existence of a Utah gang called the "Straight Edgers". This gang has strong morality at its core and intolerance as its banner. I don't know of any other state where a person's strong morals can tempt them to join a gang. Utah is a peculiar state, no doubt about it, but I'd hesitate to quantify that difference as easy or hard, or good or bad. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 20 Jul 2001 19:17:10 -0700 Thanks, Tracie. It was the Westerville 1st ward where we lived and I'm not sure why it has a reputation for being a tough ward to live in. It's different. It's very diverse. I think that the richest and poorest Mormons in the region live in that ward. The contrasts there are exciting: rich and poor, black and white, hearing and deaf, urban and rural. Every Sunday, a bus from the deaf colony nursing home brings wheelchair-bound people for sacrament meeting. My sons had to learn to sign the sacrament prayer. Every year they do the "Night of Miracles" cantata on Christmas eve and a concert at Northland Mall. One year, we were sandwiched between two black gospel choirs, one from the local Apostolic Faith. My rendition of "O Holy Night" was not exactly their style, but I got an enthusiastic round of applause. We stayed and enjoyed their music until the mall security told them to turn down their speakers or leave, so they left. Probably the most interesting thing I experienced in that ward was when the stake president was so impressed with our efforts to help same-sex attracted men be faithful to the Church that he asked us to do a fireside where I told my own story about my homosexual past to my own ward. I'm not sure if I'd be brave enough to do that in my current ward. Well, actually, I probably would, but I don't think it would be as calmly received. What stories we tell, whether autobiographical like mine, or fiction, will not find acceptance everywhere in the Church. I tell my story and don't worry how well it will be received. I was told that I really offended a lot of people who would have nothing to do with me, but I didn't notice. I felt well-respected there. I don't think we can worry about things like cultural biases when we create. I am the choir director in my ward. Last week, the bishop told me that there were at least two women who used to come to choir who said emphatically that they won't come as long as I'm the director. I have no idea why and I don't modify the way I direct, the music I choose, or the color of my socks hoping to get as many people there as I can. Yes, I did know the Riquinos. :) Rex Goode - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 20 Jul 2001 22:17:04 -0500 >>Any comments on graphic >>novels as a form--possibilities and limitations? >I tend to think of them as works for readers who don't want to actually >read--as crutches for the semi-literate. Depends on what it is. I'd say that in the already-cited example of *Maus,* the graphic part is a separate aspect of the storytelling act. The drawings and the words tell different things, both contributing to the overall story. (Actually, there are several stories, the account of the father in the concentration camps and the present-day account of the son trying to relate to the father, and also the story of the difficulties of creating a graphic novel.) Sure, some comic books are just that--something for people who don't want to really read. But I think there are graphic writers out there who aren't just retelling something in simplistic pictures but rather creating a multimedia effect. Rose Green _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 20 Jul 2001 22:07:47 -0600 At 01:20 AM 7/20/01 -0500, you wrote: >I think the mission of my writing must be to redeem the dead, as they are >apparently the only ones reading any of it . . . > >-Ronn! :) LOL! Ronn!, for all you know, you're on the best-seller list in Paradise, or Purgatory, or any of the three kingdoms, or perhaps your works are distributed within asbestos covers to those most in need of distraction from their current circumstances. . . . . barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 20 Jul 2001 22:17:23 -0600 At 09:57 AM 7/20/01 -0600, you wrote: >"It is also clear that the poet's job is not to report what has happened, >but what is likely to happen: that is, what is capable of happening >according to the laws of probability and necessity . . . the historian >talks of what has happened, the poet of the kind of thing that can happen." Sounds a lot like the conventional description of a science fiction writer. barbara hum - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] KSL and the Church (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 21 Jul 2001 01:52:35 -0600 Thom Duncan wrote: > > Chris Grant wrote: > > > > > > Furthermore, I don't think we should equate KSL's business > > decisions with the Church's imprimatur. > I think D. Mike is right. If it shows on KSL, the Church must at least > tacitly approve. Before this goes too far, I never meant to imply that if KSL airs it, the church approves of it. I've no idea how involved the church is in influencing KSL content. But I do agree with Thom that KSL has exercised editorial control before, so the way it chose to air _Schindler's List_ is significant--for KSL. For the church, I've no idea. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: [AML] Re: Fiction in Church Mags Date: 21 Jul 2001 09:15:49 -0700 Back on July 2nd, J. Scott Bronson wrote: > Jacob Proffitt: > > > > By implementing a no fiction policy at Church magazines on the > > > sly..., they imply things that they probably don't mean (that fiction > > > is bad). > > James Picht: > > > I think that making the reason for the policy explicit is possible > > only if the brethren can articulate it to themselves. > > Jacob: > > > > But then, explaining things is hard. And dangerous. > > Apparently there is an explanation out there. Frankly, I'm surprised > none of us have heard it. I was explaining this all to a friend the > other day and he said that in his ward a letter was read to them saying > that the reason the fiction is being removed is that too many members are > just unable to distinguish between fiction and reality when it comes to > church publications. Too much fiction, apparently, is being quoted as > doctrine, or near-doctrine from the pulpit. I think it's quite possible > that the Brethren would really like to publish fiction because they know > the value of it. Scott, in which stake does your friend live? And could you ask your friend to ask his bishop for a photocopy of that letter? It would be helpful if we on this list could know precisely what was said and who said it (First Presidency, Quorum of 12, Area Authority, Church magazine editors), rather than our speculating. I don't think such a letter has been read in my ward. Based on the information available thus far, here's how I would summarize the situation: Direction was given by general church leaders to the folks in charge of the magazines, to increase the amount of General Authority-authored pieces in each issue. (It's unclear whether this was phrased as a stringent rule, or as a goal to be worked toward.) Then, in order to accomplish this, the magazine editors made a management decision to not print any more fiction, so as to save space. People on this list disagree on the wisdom or appropriateness of the management decision, including some who disagree, by extension, about the original G.A. directive which prompted the editors' decision. Have I accurately summed this up? Frank Maxwell P.S. Scott, I'm cc'ing you on this post. Please reply directly to the list. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KGrant100@aol.com Subject: [AML] Re: Sex in Literature Date: 21 Jul 2001 12:21:53 EDT Linda, Thank you, thank you, thank you for your post. It was right on target. I could comment on each of the points you made, but I would mainly be expressing agreement :) So I will refrain. The talk you mention by Elder Holland is one of the best I've ever read on the subject. It's online at http://speeches.byu.edu/devo/87-88/holland88.html. It's worth reading more than once. Kathy Grant > From: Linda Adams > Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature > > I want to respond to this thread and have been trying to collect my > thoughts to express my feelings on the subject. [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 21 Jul 2001 12:41:53 -0600 At 12:40 AM 7/21/01 -0600, you wrote: >.) I >think 'missionary comics' are an intriguing idea. When I was a Baptist kid, one of the items I received in Sunday School each week was a comic strip featuring two young Christians in early Rome. I read those avidly. One character was named Nereus, I think--don't remember the other one. It was probably a good teaching device. I always loved church, even as a very young person. Something like that might be good for LDS kids. The only graphic novels I ever had were a series of 12 that were based on Star Trek episodes. I don't think the others were ever produced. I bought them because it was a link to the show, which I loved--it included shots from the show, of course. After video technology came in and I could buy the shows themselves on tape, those books became less important to me as a fan. Another interesting sidelight--the actor John Saxon was discovered because he used to be a model for the scenes in graphic novels, and some producer saw him in there and hired him for the movies. I didn't mean to put down the medium--I just told you what thoughts came into my mind when I saw the term. My point was that other people might have the same reaction. Your analogy to attitudes toward romance novels was a good one--same type of knee-jerk reaction. I can't be too hard on this art form, since one of my business partners, Dave Doering, owns a comics store in Provo (Imagine Nation). When I was a kid, comics were funny. I wonder if they need a different name for them now. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] HULS, _Just Wait_ (Review) Date: 21 Jul 2001 20:13:18 +0000 Anna Wright Wrote; My desire was to write something a 12 year old could read today that > > might get him talking with his parents about things that I fear too many > > parents are not addressing. Perhaps choosing the novel format was a > > mistake, > >I haven't read the book. But, I don't think writing a novel is a mistake. >Many people prefer to get their information in a novel form. I learned a >lot of church history from reading "The Work and the Glory". History that >might have been dull reading otherwise. > >It seems to me your more likely to reach your audience in a novel than if >it >were a pamphlet that gets handed out and the kid ignores. A novel makes it >more personal. > Growing up, I was an avid novel reader. Anything I could get my hands on (that was fiction) I would read. My parents are LDS, but were inactive through much of my life. So, while I was exposed to the church intermittently throughout my life, I never really took it to heart (and I'm happy to say my parents are now happy and active). When I was in highschool one of my LDS friends handed me a copy of First Love and Forever, by Anita Stansfield. That book is what got me reading other LDS Fiction. I found as many LDS writers as I could, and devoured their novels. When I found out that Orson Scott Card was LDS I started reading his books (Saints, Lost boys, etc.) Strangely, I cannot remember the name of the series I'm talking about, but I'm sure D. Michael has it memorized!) When I got to the books that he paralleled to The Book of Mormon, it made me want to read The Book of Mormon, just so that I could understand Card's books. -and TA DA, a teenager who never would have picked up The Book of Mormon on her own, reads it and gains a testimony. -Tami Rae Miller _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Mormon News Posts Date: 21 Jul 2001 22:07:14 -0500 [MOD: Let me just express my gratitude to Larry for doing this for the List. It makes a real difference in our completeness. I hope someone will step up to the plate (I almost said "step up to the bat") and take over this, now that Larry isn't able. And I hope that his life gets less hectic sometime!] For quite some time, I have forwarded posts from the Mormon News List to the AML List that were pertinent to Mormon Letters (and Arts and Music and ... ). While I have enjoyed doing this, it has necessarily been on my discretionary list of things to do. Through absolutely no effort on my part, my schedule was recently and significantly readjusted. And with a total disregard for my own personal desires, my discretionary time was torn asunder and converted to immaterial matter. (Ok. The prophet said there was no such thing, but it surely feels as if there is -- or isn't?) So, is there someone on the list who would like to do this? Ideally, you would already be subscribed to Mormon News, and you would simply forward those items of interest (and many times on topic) to the list. I can't speak for Ronn Blankenship, but I have noticed that recently (while my discretionary time was immaterially converting) he easily scooped me on a few MN posts to AML. If Ronn or anyone else would be interested in doing this on a regular basis, please let me know. I won't be able to keep up with it much longer. (In the event of a tie, we'll let Jonathan determine the winner.) Before committing, should you wonder what work, if any, is really involved, feel free to e-mail me privately with questions. Here's your big chance to change the world, before it begins to reel to and fro in its orbit. Thanks. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN 2001 PEARL Awards Huge Success: Faith Centered Music Association Press Release Date: 21 Jul 2001 20:31:52 -0500 Association Press Release 14Jul01 US UT SLC A2 [From Mormon-News] 2001 PEARL Awards Huge Success The best in the LDS music business are honored SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- Colors, George Dyer and the legendary Kurt Bestor swept the 2001 PEARL Awards held Friday night. Each respective group or artist happily walked away with three awards in their hands. Donning dapper tuxedos and gorgeous gowns artists, presenters and other important guests made the 2001 PEARL Awards the premier event in Salt Lake City. Scott Christopher, the KJZZ Movie Guy, was the host of the evening. He quickly became the crowd favorite with his smart and brilliant handling of the crowd. Dazzling performances were given by 2001 PEARL Award Winners Peter Brienholt Jenny Frogley, Kurt Bestor, Tammy Robinson, Sam Cardon, George Dyer, and Colors, and others. Celebrities were on hand including Marie Osmond and husband Brian Blosil. Blosil received an award for producing the Contemporary Instrumental Album of the Year. Presenters included Carol Makita, Crawford Gates, Jon Bytheway, Dean Hughes, Kurt Bestor, Kenneth Cope and many others. Janice Kapp Perry received the well-deserved Lifetime Achievement Award. After the touching tribute to her immense contributions to the Latter-Day Saint community, she walked to the stage as the audience gave her a standing ovation that didn't seem to end. She delivered a heartfelt and teary-eyed thanks to all. All looked to her with great admiration. Other 2001 PEARL Award Winners include George Dyer - Male Vocalist; Cherie Call - Female Vocalist; Tammy S. Robinson - Inspirational Album; Julie de Azevedo - Contemporary Recording; and Kenneth Cope and Tyler Castleton - Sacred Album. The 2001 PEARL Awards were taped for re-broadcast. The 2001 PEARL Awards will be aired on August 26 at 8 pm on KJZZ TV. ### 2001 Pearl Award Winners Female Vocalist Cherie Call Male Vocalist of the Year George Dyer New Artist of the Year George Dyer Group of the Year Colors (Ryan Merrill, Brian Tibbets, Russell Dixon) Performing Artist of the Year Colors Instrumentalist of the Year Sam Cardon Songwriter of the Year Tyler Castleton Studio Musician of the Year Rich Dixon Sacred Recording "All Creatures of Our God and King" Wondrous Love George Dyer Inspirational Recording "The Olive Tree" Songs for Young Women Jenny Jordan Frogley Sacred/Insprational Instrumental Recording "Overture" The Lamb of God Soundtrack & Passion of the Lamb Cantata Kurt Bestor Inspirational Album The Color of Hope Tammy Robinson; Greg Hansen and Guy Randle Sacred Album A Prayer Unto Thee Kenneth Cope & Tyler Castleton Contemporary Recording -Wings- Dive Deep Julie de Azevedo Contemporary Album Outside the Lines; Colors, John Hancock Contemporary Instrumental Recording "And the Moon" Soulmate Michael Dowdle Sacred/Inspirational Instrumental Album Where Love Is; Jenny Oaks Baker; Kenny Hodges Contemporary Instrumental Album Digability; Sam Cardon; Brian Blosil Themed or Concept Album Forward With Faith; Various Artists; Peter Breinholt & Jon Schmidt Musical Presentation or Soundtrack The Lamb of God Soundtrack & Passion of the Lamb Cantata; Kurt Bestor & Kenny Hodges Compilation Album His Love; Shadow Mountain Producer of the Year John Hancock Orchestrator / Arranger of the Year Kurt Bestor Holiday Recording "We Three Kings" Holiday Wishes: Enoch Train Enoch Train Engineer of the Year Barry Gibbons Best Album Design Heart Made of Wind (Steven Hansen & Tyler Gourley) Radio Show of the Year John Hair (KOSY 106.5) Record Label of the Year Highway Records Retailer of the Year Cardston Book, Lonnie Lockhart Source: 2001 PEARL Awards Huge Success Faith Centered Music Association Press Release 14Jul01 US UT SLC A2 >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Preston" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 21 Jul 2001 23:59:44 -0500 In this discussion of Mormonism and graphic novels, nobody, oddly enough, has mentioned any works by actual Mormon authors or illustrators. One that comes quickly to mind is, of course, Brad Teare, author of the graphic novel _Cypher_ published by Gibbs Smith. Teare's children's book _Dance, Pioneer, Dance_ is simply brilliant, one of the best children's books you'll find at LDS book stores, in my opinion. If you have kids, you've seen his work most recently on the cover of last month's issue of _The Friend_. As for work about Mormon themes, my favorite graphic novel, which can be purchased widely at comic book and larger book stores, is J. M. DeMatteis' brilliant Spider-Man: The Lost Years: One of the warmest, most interesting portrayals of Salt Lake City and a Latter-day Saint character ever written by a non-Latter-day Saint science fiction writer was actually in a trio of Spider-Man comic books. Author J. M. DeMatteis, one of comicdom's most critically acclaimed writers, happens to be a New Yorker who is a practicing convert to Hinduism. But he apparently spent enough time in SLC to capture the flavor of the city well, and to create Latter-day Saint police detective Jacob Raven. Raven is a devout but delightfully complex character who eventually ends up arresting Peter Parker for a murder (committed by his clone) in the regular Spider-Man series. This "Lost Years" limited series reveals the back story of when Raven's and Spider-Man's paths first crossed in SLC. Another way to conceptualize what this work is like: What if Richard Dutcher re-wrote "Brigham City" to feature Peter Parker, and you've captured the feel and intensity of "The Lost Years." [This all might sound preposterous to readers unfamiliar with this work, but I own this book and highly recommend it. The subject matter is definitely mature, however -- it's not meant for kids.] Preston Hunter www.adherents.com ---------- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Spring 01 (Humor) _Irreantum_ Date: 21 Jul 2001 21:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Highlights from this issue: "For the Strength of the Hills (Part Two)" by Lee Allred. Not only is the story great but the writing is both crisp and crunchy (or is it gravelly?). It's weird how all the characters are familiar and yet a little off. I like it. "Educated Woman" by Laraine Wilkins. My wife said 'this is exactly how women think.' We both enjoyed the humor and truth in this poem. I used to be a major poetry snob, but I've grown tired of tightly-wound, heavy-symbol-laden work. I liked that this poem showed a way with words, but wasn't trying to make me detangle some hidden pseudo-profound meaning. "Sung with Vim, Vigor, and a Delicate Tongue" by Harlow S. Clark. I don't know that I would want all of the reviews in _Irreantum_ to read like this one, but Harlow brings such a unique voice and line of thinking to this review that it's a pleasure to read, it makes you think, and it's hilarious. "Rameumptom" by Edgar C. Snow. It was all quite funny, but this phrase in particular was quite brilliant: 'the bilabial coluster of Mormon humor hombres.' I once had a summer job where I worked with dyslexic kids on phonemic awareness. We used all those Latin terms for sounds, but translated, so, for example, the bilabial plosives were called 'lip poppers.' There's no point to this anecdote except to say that linguistic humor cracks me up. I look forward to future pronouncements from the Rameumptom. I enjoyed other items as well, but I wanted to single these four out in particular. Great work. More, please. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: [AML] re: KSL and the Church (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 23 Jul 2001 08:03:17 -0600 Thom Duncan writes: [...] >KSL has in the past exercised editorial control over its >shows. Right. But did Spielberg's hard line regarding editing--recall the brouhaha involving _Schindler's List_ and BYU--and time constraints--Spielberg's TV cut of _Schindler's List_ was not made available to affiliates until the night it was aired--give KSL the option to edit out nude scenes? If not, then I see no reason to infer that KSL executives thought the nudity was integral to (as opposed to something worth tolerating in order to be permitted to air) Schindler's story. >For example, it stopped showing Saturday Night Live because of >content the management found offensive. And then showed equally racy SNL material in prime time during the Thursday Night Live broadcasts. >I think D. Mike is right. If it shows on KSL, the Church must >at least tacitly approve. When columnists at Church-owned _Deseret News_ condemn the same shows KSL is airing, do we then conclude that the Church both tacitly approves *and* tacitly disapproves of these shows? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 23 Jul 2001 11:40:31 -0600 >>> rareyellow@yahoo.com 07/19/01 01:01PM >>> > >One of my Mormon literary interests is considering >forms of writing that may be particularly suited to >capturing Mormon philosophy and culture. I've floated >two of those ideas to the list already---parables and >collaborative writing. Here's the next one: graphic >novels. > >In particular, I think that it would be a fascinating >way of capturing the experience of LDS >missionaries---a way that could enlarge the genre of >the missionary story. One of the treasured volumes in my Mormon book collection is a DC comic = book called "GI Combat, featuring the Haunted Tank," Feb 1974, No. 169. I = found it in one of my missionary apartments, apparently left behind by a = previous resident. The last third of the book is a story called "Peace = With Honor," with the byline "Art and Story (adapted from the Book of = Mormon) by Ric Estrada." The story is narrated by Ether, who warns Coriantumr that his bloodthirst = will lead to the destruction of his people. The great battles between = Coriantumr and Shiz's armies end with millions dead, rejected peace terms, = and new vows of vengeance. Finally, it comes down to the final battle, = which ends with only two wounded generals standing. Shiz stabs Coriantumr, = who with "a last mighty thrust (THWACK! AIEEEE!)" cuts off Shiz's=20 head. Ether moralizes on the tragic victory, then says he will "bury this true = account in the ground, that future generations may learn." The title, "Peace With Honor," is an obvious allusion to Vietnam, which = would have been a fresh memory in '74, and befitting the anti-war theme of = the story. The comic book/graphic novel medium for scripture stories is just a small = step from the animated features done by Living Scriptures, et. al., but I = suspect there would still be some resistance to using what many may view = as a debased medium for sacred stories. Still, even though I am not nor = ever was a fan of comic books, I'm impressed with how Estrada reinterpreted= the scriptural story. He convinced me that the medium has potential for = legitimate literary expression. MBA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BroHam000@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Spring 01 (Humor) _Irreantum_ Date: 23 Jul 2001 14:28:55 EDT thanks for your response, Ed. It is clear to me that humor is a part of Gods' plan. I wrote a little "Mormon Journal" entry in Feb. of 96 about processing chickens, which illustrated very clearly to me that the Lord is the master of mirth. Look it up if you want. The way my husband proposed to me, while I don't feel free to share it - that would have to be his call - was also abundant evidence of a merry Providence. Since we are that we might have joy, it follows that we are invited to partake wholesomely of humor also. Thanks again. Linda Hyde Rosemark, TN - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BroHam000@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Spring 01 (Humor) _Irreantum_ (correction) Date: 23 Jul 2001 14:43:15 EDT make that the Feb. '86 Ensign "Mormon Journal". ar ar Linda Hyde - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] UDALL, _The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint_ (Review) Date: 21 Jul 2001 21:38:27 +0000 Title: The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint: Author: Brady Udall W. W. Norton, New York 2001, 384 pages. Okay everyone, stop your little debates and idle chatter, stop wasting your time, and get a hold of Edgar Mint, right now. Young Brady Udall, with just a collection of short stories under his belt, has produced the best piece of fiction published by a Mormon author since I don't know when, and has become one of the most exciting authors in the US today. Short summary. It is about the young life of Edgar Mint, a dirt-poor Apache half-breed boy, who acts as the narrator. At the age of seven a mailman accidentally runs over his head and his alcoholic mother abandons him. He is "miraculously" brought back to life, albeit with the loss of most of his memory and the ability to write. The first quarter of the book is spent in a deteriorating Arizona hospital where the recuperating Edgar is educated and protected by a collection of deteriorating oddballs. To compensate for his inability to write, he learns to type, which becomes a form of self-therapy (by the end of the book he is dragging around a steamer trunk full of his typing over the years). After recovering he is sent to a bleak reservation boarding school full of brutality and hopelessness. There Edgar meets two Mormon missionaries, converts to the faith, and is taken in by a Utah family (with big problems of their own) through the Indian Placement Program. Throughout this time Edgar is shadowed by the doctor who saved his life, Berry Pinkley, who wants to be a father to Edgar but whose personal life is cascading out of control. Finally Edgar (now 15 or so) leaves the family and tries to fulfill his long held goal of finding the mailman who ran him over and telling him that he is all right. The plot and themes of the novel are fascinating, but what it has going for it more than anything else is Udall's fantastic writing ability. Crackling dialogue, spot-on similes that don't make you think, "Hey, he just used a simile", fascinating "Dickinsian" characters, and no let up in the pace of the story. It reminded me of the time I discovered John Irving after slogging through a series of mediocre novels. We forget sometimes how good it feels to read a skilled writer, one who has impressive literary skills but doesn't bore us with them. Udall's work is very reminiscent of Irving's best novels, like its long, rambling storyline, oddball characters, events from early in the book playing surprising roles in the end, comedy found in tragic circumstances, and the overall tone of the writing. It all has an Irving feel about it. In a good way. The main themes of the book are survival, saviors, and family. The poor southwestern society into which Edgar is thrust is filled with pain, death, and the struggle for survival. Even a small boy apparently killed by a mail truck doesn't cause much of a stir. Only family can be expected to offer protection in this environment, but Edgar lacks even that. His mother took her first drink when she found out she was pregnant and never stopped, and his Anglo father left before Edgar was even born. In a world which seems bent on his destruction, Edgar constantly seeks family figures with whom he can feel safe. Likewise others, drawn by Edgar's purity, try to become his family. They try to act as saviors for each other, but often fall short. Berry, Edgar's stalker/doctor, wants desperately to be Edgar's father, but eventually becomes a danger to himself as well as Edgar. The Madsens, the Mormon couple, seem to offer a real family, but they have their own significant demons to face, and they adopt strays more as a way to fill the void in their lives than out of real love. Edgar does find a real brother, mother, and father at different times of the book, but tragically for Edgar not all of them survive. The pain over the losses, and the joys over the creation of real bonds, gives the book much of its heart. Since this review is going to a Mormon list, I should talk about the Mormon elements in the novel. Mormon characters are central in the novel from Edgar's first encounter with the missionaries until his furtive departure from the Utah family which took him in. The missionaries enter Edgar's life at one of his lowest points and help to turn him around. Although he doesn't understand everything the missionaries say the way they mean it, through their blessing the ghosts of his nightmares are driven away, and through their teachings he is able to build a relationship with God, experience the miracle of repentance and forgiveness (the repentance scenes are among the most beautiful of the book), and find a purpose for his life (to be a "savior" for the mailman). After the pages of brutality at the Indian school, the missionary section comes like a wave of cool water. These older brother figures also open the way for him to join a real family. The Utah Mormon family, the Madsens, provide Edgar with a safe, soft home, where he is overwhelmed with joy at things like having 12 pairs of underwear. Despite their generosity, Edgar soon learns that the mother and father suffer from their own sorrows, and are on the verge of splitting up. While not a stereotypical Mormon family, they are very real and recognizably Mormon. The parents are drawn with some of the least broad strokes in the book, because Udall lets his characters explain themselves through their dialogue, and the Madsens are more taciturn than most. For Mormon readers especially, however, there are enough subtle clues that we come to understand the Madsens very well. Although Mormonism offers Edgar a great many things, he never seems to become enmeshed in Mormon society, and once he leaves the Madsens he leaves Mormonism as well with hardly a look back. Although not explicitly explained, this appears to be because of his damaged relationship with God after the death of a close friend, and the lack of welcome he receives in white Mormon society. Edgar does not dwell on the slights he receives, but we see a few of them, like the day he is called to stand before a Sunday School class as a visual example of a cursed race. The one boy who reaches out to him as a friend obviously is doing so out of a sense of duty after a Sunday School lesson on the Good Samaritan. Edgar comments that the Utah school he attends is not that different from his brutal Indian school, the brutality just went on in a much quieter manner. So ultimately Mormonism is not a driving force for Edgar, but he does seem to be thankful for the blessings he received through it. Still, the book certainly could offend a large swath of Mormon readers with its graphic language (really not that much, and not gratuitous to my way of thinking) and the terrible violence to which Edgar is subjected (and occasionally meets out). I hope readers can look beyond those things to the abundant depth and beauty of the story. It is the kind of beauty that Dostoyevsky talked about, that found in the grungiest of circumstances. Say, did I mention that it is hilariously funny? The con men dressing up as Mormon missionaries to get to Edgar, the urinal puck that Edgar uses as a talisman, the pre-baptismal repentance scene ("Do you have a problem with self-abuse?" "I hit myself with a brick once."). Even his many injuries have funny touches. At one point the school nurse sighs that they should rename the infirmary the "Edgar Mint Memorial Clinic." Udall has commented that at his computer he has a post-it sign that reminds him to keep his work humorous. I appreciate that in a literary author. Although Udall studied at the prestigious Writer's Workshop at the University of Iowa, he has said it didn't add significantly to his education "because I learned everything I needed at BYU." That is comforting to know that BYU is able to train writers of this degree of skill. Can you tell that I am excited about this book? I hope that many of you will read it soon. There are lots of issues about it that I figured there is no point bringing up yet, until more have read it and can comment. (Former Mormon Walter Kirn wrote a very interesting review of the novel in the May issue of GQ, if you can get a hold of it I recommend it.) So come on guys, come on! Time's a wasting! Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 23 Jul 2001 14:19:47 -0500 KGrant100@aol.com wrote: > Linda, > > Thank you, thank you, thank you for your post. It was right on target. I > could comment on each of the points you made, but I would mainly be > expressing agreement :) So I will refrain. > > The talk you mention by Elder Holland is one of the best I've ever read on > the subject. It's online at > http://speeches.byu.edu/devo/87-88/holland88.html. It's worth reading more > than once. > > Kathy Grant > > > From: Linda Adams > > Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature > > > > I want to respond to this thread and have been trying to collect my > > thoughts to express my feelings on the subject. > > [snip] > A great post by Linda and a great talk by J. Holland. And I concurr with Kathys comments. My question is: has anyone written something like this for a 11-12 year old so that preparation for the onslaught of raging hormones and peer pressure is made easier to handle. This may not be the site to discuss this, but I am interested in any answers. dc.huls@verizon.net Craig Huls dc.huls@verizon.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 23 Jul 2001 12:52:45 -0700 Worthy of keeping in the permanent file! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 4:37 PM > Terry, > > I think the threefold mission of Mormon writers could be described as: > > 1. Exhume the Dead > 2. Stretch the Gospel > 3. Disturb the Perfect Saints > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Reid Subject: RE: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 23 Jul 2001 14:53:03 -0700 Okay, so if that General Authority said, "Ya, you betcha, (I hang with General Authorities from the Upper Midwest) you go ahead and write those real stories about real people facing real problems." Then what would we do? When I read Dean Koontz, Ray Bradbury, Orson Scott Card (except for "Saints"), Charles DeLint, etc... I never know what religion their characters are (unless of course it's the stock Catholic priest.) So, do we write our characters with "hints" of religious beliefs - i.e. Battlestar Galactica and Kolob or perhaps Kenny Kemp - where only the Mormons watching/reading get it? Or do we start infiltrating our fiction with "real" glimpses of Mormon life - but in a way that it is a part of the character - not a reproduction of an ad for the church? (I think actually that Orson Scott Card did a fairly good job of this with "Saints.") Can the High Priest Group Leader ever take the place of the grizzled Irish Priest in fiction? Could "Family Man" been about an LDS Elder's Quorum president? Could we bring people into this LDS world of ours and have them actually believe us? No one really says "Fudge" and "Dang It." They use how much Jello? What the heck do you use 800 pounds of dried red kidney beans for? Sorry, I just slipped into the Utah Culture thread. ;) Thanks for your throughts! Terri Terri Reid Executive Producer - Midwest Region PIXELight www.itpnow.com -----Original Message----- I've thought along these same lines. Following is how I've posed the questions on a wish-list of questions I would ask Pres. Hinckley or another GA in an interview. [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Query to Eric Snider Date: 23 Jul 2001 16:33:23 -0600 Eric, I noticed last week that you used terms I'd like you to define a bit, if you don't mind. You wrote of a character's (Sam Neill's Dr. Grant in Jurassic Park 3) "delightful bitterness"--how can something so destructive of the quality of life be delightful? Did you think it made the character more interesting than he was in the first movie? I found him quite interesting. . . . . And you called another movie "darkly funny"--that made me wonder how you would define "dark comedy." It also made me wonder whether I really like dark comedy but just don't know it. In my doctoral dissertation I wrote about Shakespeare's use of looming death as a backdrop to make the comedic elements stand out--maybe I just don't like it when Hollywood does the same thing. BTW, you save me a lot of money. After I read your reviews, I don't want to see any of them--especially the ones you give an "A" to. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 23 Jul 2001 16:52:14 -0500 At 11:15 AM 7/21/01, you wrote: >Back on July 2nd, J. Scott Bronson wrote: > > Too much fiction, apparently, is being quoted as > > doctrine, or near-doctrine from the pulpit. e.g., _Saturday's Warrior_? --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clifford Dubery" Subject: [AML] Mormon Music Publishers Date: 24 Jul 2001 10:21:46 +1000 I am acting as an agent for a local member of the church and composer musician here in Melbourne Australia. I would like to know if anyone can refer me to a publisher as he has produced an excellent work on the Book of Mormon that we all should have the opportunity to hear. Clifford M Dubery Carrum Downs Victoria Australia "The preservation of liberty depends upon the intellectual and moral character of the people. As long as knowledge and virtue are diffused generally among the body of a nation, it is impossible they should be enslaved. There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty" John Adams - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] Help AML Contact Colleges Date: 23 Jul 2001 16:57:23 -0600 The AML is looking for some helpers to get our promotional flyers into the on-campus mail boxes of English dept. faculty and graduate students at some Utah and LDS-oriented universities. We are preparing a mailing about Irreantum, the autumn writers' conference, and the annual meeting coming up in March 2002 and want to get the word out to as many people as possible. Following is a list of institutions we still need contact people for: Westminster College (SLC) Utah State (Logan) Southern Utah (Cedar City) Dixie (St. George) Snow (Ephraim) BYU Hawaii BYU Idaho Southern Virginia University (Are there any we're forgetting? We've already got BYU, UVSC, Weber, SLCC, and U of U covered.) What we would need you to do is: 1) Contact the appropriate dept. secretary and find out if they will put flyers in the faculty and graduate student boxes, and if so how many flyers we should provide and where the bundle should be mailed or delivered to. If possible, you could volunteer to drop off the bundle in person and even stuff the slots yourself, although many secretaries just say, "We'll just take care of it." 2) Tell the AML how many flyers are needed and where they should be mailed (either to you or directly to the dept. secretary), including the correct mailing address. It's not a hard job; it just takes tracking down the right contact person(s) and following up with them and the AML to make sure the flyers get to the right place in the right quantity and make it inside the faculty and graduate boxes. You don't even need to live near the school you volunteer to coordinate with, if you don't mind telephoning them long-distance. If you're willing to volunteer, let us know which school you could help with at irreantum2@cs.com. Thanks, Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] UDALL, _The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint_ (Review) Date: 23 Jul 2001 19:49:50 -0700 This sounds like a wonderful book! Thanks for the review! - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: KSL and the Church Date: 23 Jul 2001 22:10:51 -0500 Chris Grant wrote: I don't think we should equate KSL's business decisions with the Church's imprimatur. Thom Duncan: KSL has in the past exercised editorial control over its shows. Eric D. Snider: All of this is reason No. 1 why the church should get out of the TV business. _______________ I agree with Eric that this is reason No. 1 why the Church should get out of the business. There are a number of other good reasons as well. "On the other hand," as Tevya* would say, the No. 1 reason why the Church should stay in the business is that it gives them access to satellite time and facilities to broadcast Church conferences and other programs. And, just think of that quality music we would have missed if KBYU hadn't aired the Pioneer Fireside Sunday night. KSL and KBYU are the tickets to the satellites for the Church, if they wish to provide any sort of general broadcast dissemination of Church programs and activities. Many years ago,** a decision was made that the broadcast businesses of the Church would be operated for profit, notwithstanding an occasional conflict between Church standards and the standards of the world. There were regulatory issues with the FCC involved in the decision. I imagine that as things change, these decisions are reevaluated on a regular basis and changed as warranted and as the needs of the Church are balanced with ways in which the message of the Gospel can be proclaimed, while still complying with the laws of the land (at least as far as the public airwaves and frequencies are concerned). Than again, considering Eric D. S's No. 1 reason, Tevye* also said, "On the other hand ... No! There is no other hand." Larry Jackson * _Fiddler on the Roof_ ** We discussed this in broadcasting courses in 1972, so it must have predated that time. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Spring 01 (Humor) _Irreantum_ Date: 23 Jul 2001 13:03:05 -0500 At 06:13 PM 7/19/01, you wrote: >Linda, I'm grateful for your review of and response to the Humor issue. I >was especially glad that you "enjoyed most of it." Hey, it wasn't me. I did read it but haven't written up a review. I remember reading the post you're responding to. But who was it? At least, I *think* I'm the only Linda who currently, actively posts instead of lurking. Linda Adams Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: RE: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 23 Jul 2001 14:35:09 -0500 At 10:49 AM 7/20/01, you wrote: >Our reaction to any work of art, any piece of writing, is governed by >agency. I do not believe that are any books we shouldn't read. But there >are certainly books we shouldn't read in certain ways, with certain >intentions, with certain outcomes. Books can be an occasion for >temptation and sin, just like any conversation or letter or e-mail can be >an occasion for sin. On a personal note, I govern my choices for what to read and what to see by the Spirit. I frequently use "movie ratings" as a general guideline (I put that in quotes because they're not very reliable for defining moral content, but that's another, much rehashed discussion), but I still use the Spirit as an additional, far more powerful and effective tool to show me what I, personally, will or will not be affected by in a negative (or positive) way. Books don't have "ratings." They hopefully never will. I've read books I wish I hadn't downloaded into my brain--not because they were inherently evil but because I couldn't handle the content very well, personally. Same for certain movies. (One of them was a PG (?!) -rated movie called "Beethoven." It was hideous, sick, and INTENDED for children's enjoyment. Which I still can't figure.) I figure that God knows me intimately, and he also knows every single word and/or scene in every movie, and he knows what will enrich my life and experience and what will not (or, in other words, what would constitute sin or temptation to sin, or disturb my psyche beyond what I'm able to cope with). I hold that this is a unique and *different* boundary or guideline for every individual. As Eric stated, the world would be a better place had Timothy McVeigh NOT read those diaries: it had a profound negative effect, yet reading the *same* document did not have the identical profound effect on Eric. I could list several books and movies I've been warned away from seeing or reading through the Spirit. I could also list items with ratings or content others might find objectionable but which I did not, and found my life enriched and enhanced by that reading/viewing experience. But I won't list the titles, because what was right or wrong for me may not be the same at all for someone else, and listing the titles will only cause controversy and/or judgment. I can only say I've literally stood in the library, bookstore, video store or wherever, holding an item in my hands , and had the Spirit say either "go ahead, you'll like that one," or "no, don't try that one, it's not for you." We are all individual. Let the Spirit guide you. It works. When I listen, I haven't been disappointed. And on the occasions I stubbornly haven't listened (I make NO claim to perfection :-} ) I've been sorry later that I didn't. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] OSC series (was: HULS, _Just Wait_) Date: 24 Jul 2001 13:59:25 -0600 Tami Miller wrote: > When I found out that Orson Scott Card was LDS I started > reading his books (Saints, Lost boys, etc.) Strangely, I cannot remember the > name of the series I'm talking about, but I'm sure D. Michael has it > memorized!) When I got to the books that he paralleled to The Book of > Mormon, it made me want to read The Book of Mormon, just so that I could > understand Card's books. He's written more than one series. The one based on the Book of Mormon is "Homecoming." Another one loosely based on Joseph Smith's life is "Alvin Maker." A third one based on nothing LDS is the Ender series, which has recently become two-pronged--two series diverging in different directions based on the original book. He's also starting up a series of books on Old Testament women with _Sarah_, and has a trilogy going starting with _Lovelock_ ("Mayflower" trilogy I believe it's called). "Pastwatch" is also a planned series with only one book out so far. Was that good enough for you? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: [AML] J. Scott BRONSON, _The Whipping Boy_ (Unpublished) Date: 24 Jul 2001 14:11:20 -0600 This is the six-year tale of a man and his book. (Seven years if you count the year that it took to write the darn thing.) The man is me and the book is _The Whipping Boy_, which for a short time was called, _A Day of Peace_, when I was convinced by someone that the original title would confuse too many people with that Newberry award winning book from a few decades back. Later, I convinced myself that I preferred my original title and changed it back. For anyone interested in this kind of thing, here is the history of my attempts to get it published: 1. In 1995 I sent _The Whipping Boy_ (full manuscript) and _Love or Devotion: A Boy's Life_ (one chapter) to Hatrack River Publications. I liked the editorial stance of this company and I liked the first couple of books that they published and, quite frankly, I was hoping to get a forword for my novel by the inestimable Orson Scott Card. Eleven months later I received a rejection apologizing for the long delay with the explanation that my novels did not fit into their "somewhat narrow publishing plans." Managing editor, Kristine Card, in the rejection stated that HRP was "concentrating on contemporary, adult Mormon novels that deal[t] with the uniquely Mormon experience of living in the 'small town' community of a ward. For the forseeable future [they would] not be publishing novels that deal[t] primarily with children and young adults." I assume that this was an editorial focus that was decided on after the publication of _Gert Fram_. In regard to _Love or Devotion_, I could understand the decision to reject based on that focus. With _The Whipping Boy_, however, it was obvious that no one had read past the first scene in the book which takes place in a primary class from the POV of one of the boys in the class. If anyone had read further they would have discovered that every member of a particular family gets their day in court as it were and that the book dealt primarily with the whole family. This caused me to consider some way to make it obvious in that first scene to editors and potential readers that the book actually has an adult tone and focus. I couldn't do it. I finally decided that I needed that first scene to be where it was and how it was. I could only hope that people browsing in a store would not be put off by the fact that the first POV character we meet is an eleven-year-old boy. 2. In April of 1996 I had lunch with Jay Parry of Deseret Book and handed over the manuscript to him. Five months later I received a very nice rejection letter. He felt that my writing was clear and straightforward and that I dealt with issues that "are important to everyone who feels." Unfortunately, he also felt that there was a quality to my writing that limited the audience. The word he used to describe this quality was "heavy." It was his feeling that the reading audience for what he considered to be a dark and depressing world was relatively small. While he liked the quality of my writing, he thought the choice of story and character -- though well depicted -- were limited in their appeal. In other words, DB wasn't comfortable in trying to market this book. That's understandable. I didn't think they'd want it, but Jay wanted to read it anyway. 3. In July of '97 I took the manuscript to Bookcraft. A year later I got a very positive rejection from Cory Maxwell. He was terribly emabarrassed at how long it took to get back to me, but I wasn't upset or anything. How can anyone be mad at such a nice guy. Besides, it's not like there's only one person reading and making the decision. The decision not to publish came down to the marketability of the book. "There were some concerns that the manuscript [was] a bit bleak." The positive part came with Cory's comments about the quality of the writing, which he liked. He said that it was finely crafted and dealt honestly and effectively with sensivite issues and relationships. 4. In '99 I saw Paul rawlins on a panel at the Mormon Arts Festival -- the one that was held at BYU. I approached him afterward and asked if Aspen Books was currently accepting fiction. He said that they were and that I should send in whatever I had. I did, and withing three weeks got a form rejection, unsigned from the Review Committee. I can't imagine a committee making a decision that fast so I have assumed that they were in fact, NOT considering fiction at the time. Wish I had known that. Perhaps I'm wrong, and they did actually decide that "[my] manuscript [didn't] fit [their] needs at [that] time." But I doubt it. 5. I submitted _The Whipping Boy_ to Marilyn Brown's contest in '99 and it was rejected Feb. '00 with comments along the line (I've lost the little scrap of paper with the three or four handwritten lines that were paperclipped to the manuscript) that the story was too simple and preachy. I thought a cursory critique like that was rather insulting to people who had put so much into writing and presenting a novel in a professional manner and told Marilyn so. She apologized and told me that she would alter the form of giving out the judges' comments in the future. For penance, Marilyn actually read the novel herself ... and agreed with the judes. But she spent more time telling me so, so that was nice. She didn't think that the book resembled a novel as much as a "potpouri of 'sunday school lessons.'" She didn't think that the writing got good until the last 25 pages. Let me step out here for a second and point out that these are all just opinions. Anything these editors and judges have to say are nothing more than opinions. I, as the writer, have the right to take them or leave them. Some I took. Most I left. I know what kind of book I was trying to write, and if it doesn't fit the parameters of any given publisher, well, too bad for me. But I'm not going to run to the keyboard after every rejection and rewrite to that editor's comments then try to get a DIFFERENT editor to buy it. I'll assess all comments, accept or reject them based on my vision, rewrite or not, then hope that the market will someday open up to that vision of mine. 6. I had a talk with Tyler Moulton at last year's AML Writers' Conference and decided to take my manuscript to Covenant. Eight months later I got another rejection. Although their opinion was that the manuscript was "well written," their editors found it to be "somewhat lacking in the development of characters." Here's one of those opinions that I have to reject. I know what my strengths and weaknesses are as a writer. I'm not much in the way of developing plot, but I know I'm good at character and dialogue at the very least. This manuscript is nothing if not 215 pages of in depth character analysis. Here, I think, is the real reason that the book was rejected: "[We] feared our readership would be offended by the significant sexual undertones ... alongside gospel themes." It was unsigned, "Sincerely, The Editors." I find that a bit odd for some reason. As for the sexual undertones, well, yeah. Marcus wants sex. He ain't getting much so he thinks about it from time to time. There are no scenes where sex actually occurs. There is a scene where a fourteen-year-old girl, on a sudden whim, tries to nurse a baby that she is sitting for. That becomes a defining moment in her life; a source of great guilt that follows here for a long time. So, what's the point of all this? Well, we spend a lot of time talking about trying to write and sell books to the Mormon audience, and I thought it might be of interest to a select few to see exactly how that process goes sometimes. And this: I've got nobody else to send it to in this market -- that I'm willing to send it to. Many of you are probably saying, "What about Signature?" What about them? They don't promote their fiction. I don't write just to be published, I write to be read. And so, I've decided to give it away. If you want to read this book, just let me know. I'll attach a copy to you in any format you want. Almost any format. Whatever I've got in this computer -- WPF, RTF, MSW -- I'll give you. And now, I've got a different book to write. J. Scott Bronson -- Member of Playwrights Circle --- "The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent upon it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do." Galileo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike South Subject: RE: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 24 Jul 2001 15:57:19 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > I also recently learned of the existence of a Utah gang called the > "Straight Edgers". This gang has strong morality at its core and > intolerance as its banner. I don't know of any other state where a > person's strong morals can tempt them to join a gang. Utah is a > peculiar state, no doubt about it, but I'd hesitate to quantify that > difference as easy or hard, or good or bad. The Straight Edge movement actually goes back to the mid-80s beginning with a punk band in the Washington, D.C. area called Minor Threat. They wrote a song called _Straight Edge_ decrying the use of alcohol and drugs and advocating a "straight edge" lifestyle. While this message had good elements, it also included a definite anti-authoritarian streak (as all good punk music does). The band members themselves lived up to what they preached, and many kids followed them. Groups of disaffected youth across the country began to adopt this posture, and somewhere along the way it became acceptable to enforce this belief system on others. If you see someone smoking a cigarette, take it out of his mouth. Then beat him up so he remembers not to smoke again. Some groups even go so far as to attempt to enforce a vegan lifestyle. The idea behind the song was keep yourself clean to keep yourself in control -- you'll be subject to no one but yourself. Sadly, though, the reasons to be clean and in control were distorted. I thought that Edward Norton's character in _American History X_ was a perfect portrayal of what can happen to a person with this kind of thinking. (I know he wasn't portraying a straight-edger, but the attitudes are much the same.) --Mike South - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike South Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 24 Jul 2001 16:28:01 -0600 Barbara Hume wrote: > When I was a Baptist kid, one of the items I received in Sunday School each > week was a comic strip featuring two young Christians in early Rome. I > read those avidly. One character was named Nereus, I think--don't remember > the other one. It was probably a good teaching device. I always loved > church, even as a very young person. Something like that might be good for > LDS kids. I've actually been thinking for a while about the idea of a comic strip with a Mormon character in it. I think it would address the problem that we are afraid we won't be accepted by the outside world because they don't know the "real us". I think comic strips as a medium offer a unique opportunity to establish long-term relationships between the characters and the reader. Most of us know just how Charlie Brown feels when he vows that this is the year he's going to kick that football. Or how Calvin feels when he's rudely yanked from his adventures as Spaceman Spiff back into his classroom at school. We know because day-after-day and year-after-year we got to know the characters. And even though the authors have moved on or even died, the characters are still part of us. I think a well done strip with a Mormon character could both tell great stories and show the world that we know we have foibles just like everyone else. And how we deal with the fact that deep down many of us feel like we're not supposed to have those foibles. Of course, well done is subjective. Many strips today seem like shallow imitations of bad sitcoms -- just an excuse for characters to zing each other. Or to show how witty the author can be when weighing in on political topics of the day. But there are examples from the past that show the form is more than capable of handling difficult themes, complex characterization, and engaging story lines: Krazy Kat, Little Nemo In Slumberland, and Barnaby come to mind. In the last 50 years though there have been fewer notable strips. The only great ones I can think of are Peanuts, Bloom County, and Calvin & Hobbes. Just thinkin' out loud. --Mike South - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Fiction in Church Mags Date: 24 Jul 2001 17:53:42 -0400 Larry Jackson wrote: > > Rich Hammett: > > BTW, did anyone ever come up with documentation > on the "no fiction in church mags" policy? My returned > missionary e-mail list thinks that I made the whole thing up. For what it's worth, the no-fiction policy was posted on the AML list by a member of the editorial staff of the _Ensign_ Richard Johnson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Michael O. TUNNELL, _Brothers in Valor_ Date: 24 Jul 2001 17:57:36 -0400 luannstaheli wrote: > > I believe it is. There was also a non-fiction book about these boys a > year or > more ago in the LDS market. > > Rose Green wrote: > > > By any chance is the book about Helmut Huebner and his friends? > This may be answered already (I am sorting through over four hundred e-mails that were awaiting me when I returned from a trip to Vancouver WA. to see my granson baptized and my new granddaughter blessed), but there is a book _Before the Blood Tribunal_ for which I wrote a review for the list about six years ago. Richard B. Johnson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: [AML] Eudora Welty Dead at 92 Date: 24 Jul 2001 20:18:38 -0500 Just read in PW Daily that Mississippi's Eudora Welty, 1909-2001 passed away. Demonstrating the extent to which Eudora Welty is venerated in her native Mississippi, her body will lie in state Wednesday from 2 to 5 p.m. in the Old State Capitol. She died in Jackson yesterday at age 92. The exquisitely restored venue was the site for the ceremony in which she was awarded the Legion of Honor medal--France's highest civilian honor--in 1996, three years before she became the first living American writer included in the Library of America and 23 years after The Optimist's Daughter, one of her five novels, won a Pulitzer Prize. (Among her other encomiums was the 1987 National Medal of Arts.) Taken from PW Daily Copyright 2001, Cahners Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Mormon News Posts Date: 24 Jul 2001 20:43:53 -0500 [MOD: Thanks for both Debra and Larry for their work.] Debra Brown has graciously offered to take up the baton and forward MN post of interest to the AML List. Please be as patient with her as you were with me, while I fiddled with the behind-the-scenes technicalities of the process. Thanks to Debra for her willingness to contribute. And, as always, thanks to Jonathan for letting them slide on through to the list from time to time. It's been a pleasure to be of some service to the List. As I step away from the plate, I'll still be around, practicing my speed reading skills more often than I would wish. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN "Brigham Young" to be screened at Lee Library July 26: BYU Press Release Date: 24 Jul 2001 19:50:32 -0500 Press Release 12Jul01 US UT Prov A6 [From Mormon-News] "Brigham Young" to be screened at Lee Library July 26 PROVO, UTAH -- The Special Collections Motion Picture Film Archive at Brigham Young University's Harold B. Lee Library will present the feature film "Brigham Young" on Thursday (July 26) at 7 p.m. The free screening is the archive's birthday tribute to Brigham Young. The film is an historic motion picture that dramatized for a worldwide audience the trek of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from Illinois to the Salt Lake Valley in 1846-47. Doors open at 6:30 p.m. No food or drink is permitted in the Lee Library Auditorium located on the library's first level, and everyone eight years of age and over is welcome. While admission is free, seating is limited. "Brigham Young" was the first major feature-length motion picture dealing with the history of the Church of Jesus Christ that received full cooperation from Church leaders. "It was a landmark film primarily because it reversed more than three decades of negative portrayals of Latter-day Saints," says James D'Arc, curator of the Special Collections Motion Picture Film Archive. President Heber J. Grant worked closely with producer and studio chief Darryl F. Zanuck at Twentieth Century-Fox for nearly two years while the film was in various stages of production. President Grant announced to the press, following a preview screening in August 1940, that the film would be a "friendmaker. I would not change a line." "Brigham Young" featured a then-stellar cast that included leading Fox stars Tyrone Power and Linda Darnell as the romantic interest. Vincent Price, in one of his early film roles, appeared as Joseph Smith. The title role went to Dean Jagger who, on the strength of his performance in "Brigham Young," was signed to a long-term contract with the studio. He later received an Academy Award in 1949 as best supporting actor in "Twelve O'Clock High." An accompanying exhibit, "The Fox and the Lion: Darryl F. Zanuck's Brigham Young," will be presented by the L. Tom Perry Special Collections Department during the months of July and August. The exhibit contains materials connected with the making and release of the 1940 film. Located next to the Lee Library Auditorium, the exhibit is open Mondays through Saturdays during the library's normal operating hours, 8 a.m.-10 p.m. Admission to the exhibit is free. -###- Source: "Brigham Young" to be screened at Lee Library July 26 BYU Press Release 12Jul01 US UT Prov A6 http://www.byu.edu/news/releases/Jul/Young.htm >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] J. Scott BRONSON, _The Whipping Boy_ (Unpublished) Date: 25 Jul 2001 02:11:54 +0000 What a great attitude! I hope I have the conviction that you do, to keep trying, when I work up the courage to start submitting and receive the inevitable rejection letters. I would love to read your book. I was also thinking that Worldsmiths, D. Michael Martindale's writers group would probably like to read it. Tami Miller - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] OSC series (was: HULS, _Just Wait_) Date: 25 Jul 2001 02:13:09 +0000 Ah, Just as I suspected! [Tami Miller] >From: "D. Michael Martindale" [snip] > >He's written more than one series. The one based on the Book of Mormon >is "Homecoming." Another one loosely based on Joseph Smith's life is >"Alvin Maker." A third one based on nothing LDS is the Ender series, >which has recently become two-pronged--two series diverging in different >directions based on the original book. He's also starting up a series of >books on Old Testament women with _Sarah_, and has a trilogy going >starting with _Lovelock_ ("Mayflower" trilogy I believe it's called). >"Pastwatch" is also a planned series with only one book out so far. > >Was that good enough for you? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Savage" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 24 Jul 2001 19:19:32 -0700 > Craig Huls wrote > My question is: has anyone written something like this for a 11-12 > year old so that preparation for the onslaught of raging hormones and peer > pressure is made easier to handle. This may not be the site to discuss this, > but I am interested in any answers. dc.huls@verizon.net > It's out of print, but I found a copy recently through half.com, so I know they are around. It's called "The Love Book" by songwriter Marvin Payne, published by Bookcraft in 1980. I gave this book to my 11 year-old son and 13 year-old daughter to read and they both loved it. It does an amazing job of preparing young adults for those raging hormones in a VERY entertaining, while still spiritually uplifting, way. Just a quick example from the second chapter titled "Superman" (Bookcraft and Marvin, I hope you don't mind me reprinting this, but get the darn thing republished. It is great!) "But it was fifth grade when it all came to a head. I vividly remember praying every night in the fifth grade. Something like, 'If there is any way, in the great plan for the world and its inhabitants, that Lilli Purcell can be made to love me, I'll keep all the commandments. I'll keep commandments I'm not even old enough to understand yet. You can make up whole new commandments, hard ones, I don't care - I'll keep them all. Because she's so skinny and so smart and plays kickball so good... But if there's no way. If in all the destinies of men and stars such a thing is not meant to be; if it would violate some grand eternal plan for Lilli Purcell to love me . . . how 'bout Janice Robinson?' The answer was 'no.' It came in the classic Doctrine and Covenants manner - a stupor of thought. Of course I hadn't read the Doctrine and Covenants, so I didn't accept the answer and kept the stupor. here's a tragic picture: A little fifth grader, muddling around in a stupor of thought, walking headlong into bikes, trees, adults. Stupors manifest themselves in different ways. With me it was that I slept a lot in class." The whole book is written in this fun kind of style. You can read it in an afternoon, but I still remembered it after twenty years when I wanted something like it for my kids. -Jeff Savage - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 24 Jul 2001 20:29:39 -0500 At 11:21 AM 7/21/01, you wrote: >Linda, > >Thank you, thank you, thank you for your post. It was right on target. I >could comment on each of the points you made, but I would mainly be >expressing agreement :) So I will refrain. > >The talk you mention by Elder Holland is one of the best I've ever read on >the subject. It's online at >http://speeches.byu.edu/devo/87-88/holland88.html. It's worth reading more >than once. > >Kathy Grant Thanks, Kathy! I always feel nervous before I hit the "send" key on posts like that one--highly charged--and I'm glad to hear you appreciated it. Frank Maxwell says you're in Gilroy, but not his ward? Is that right? I went to high school in Hollister. Are you in the Young's ward? Are the Smurthwaite's & the Eggers' still around? I'm just curious because it's my old stomping grounds. Nice to meet someone from "home!" (Even if it's been YEARS since I've visited.) Linda Adams Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Eudora Welty Dead at 92 Date: 24 Jul 2001 20:17:38 -0700 I read this in this morning's paper. A great loss. One of the great Southern writers, she had a unique way of capturing the moods of the South. You may know that, in her later years, she was unable to write, and suffered greatly. But her mind remained sharp to the end. [Jeff Needle] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 24 Jul 2001 23:34:08 -0500 At 11:07 PM 7/20/01, you wrote: >At 01:20 AM 7/20/01 -0500, you wrote: > >>I think the mission of my writing must be to redeem the dead, as they are >>apparently the only ones reading any of it . . . >> >>-Ronn! :) > >LOL! Ronn!, for all you know, you're on the best-seller list in Paradise, >or Purgatory, or any of the three kingdoms, or perhaps your works are >distributed within asbestos covers to those most in need of distraction >from their current circumstances. . . . . > >barbara hume I suspect the last scenario to be closest to the truth, although the purpose is probably not distraction but to cause additional weeping and gnashing of teeth . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Query to Eric Snider Date: 24 Jul 2001 23:42:19 -0500 At 05:33 PM 7/23/01, barbara hume wrote: >Eric, I noticed last week that you used terms I'd like you to define a >bit, if you don't mind. > >You wrote of a character's (Sam Neill's Dr. Grant in Jurassic Park 3) >"delightful bitterness"--how can something so destructive of the quality >of life be delightful? Did you think it made the character more >interesting than he was in the first movie? I found him quite >interesting. . . . . I think one might consider his bitterness a natural progression from the first movie: he can't seem to get funding for what he considers true science, and when he gives a lecture on his work to a packed auditorium, all anyone wants to ask about are the events documented in the first two films, which he would rather forget. And then . . . how would you describe your feelings if you had been lied to, kidnapped, hit over the head, had your plane crash in the one location on Earth you never want to go, then spend the next several days running from things that could swallow you whole and are strongly motivated to do so? Jovial? And, BTW, I have not seen a review of _JP3_ by Eric Snider. Am I missing some posts? (And who wants to see mine? FWIW, I did _not_ give it an "A".) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 24 Jul 2001 23:50:22 -0500 At 05:28 PM 7/24/01, Mike South wrote: >I've actually been thinking for a while about the idea of a comic strip with >a Mormon character in it. Of course, there's already "Pickles," where the LDS elements are rather subtle, like a picture of the temple hanging on the wall in the background. Then there was the independent super-hero comic "Captain Canuck," about a super-hero from the Great White North who happened to be LDS. (BTW, Thom, whatever happened to your idea for a Mormon comic book that we talked about . . . ?) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Query to Eric Snider Date: 25 Jul 2001 00:14:26 -0600 >You wrote of a character's (Sam Neill's Dr. Grant in Jurassic Park >3) "delightful bitterness"--how can something so destructive of the >quality of life be delightful? Did you think it made the character >more interesting than he was in the first movie? I found him quite >interesting. . . . . Dr. Grant's bitterness in "JP3" is the result of his experiences in the first movie (he wasn't in the second one). While I agree bitterness is not the best way to deal with life's travails, I'd have to say I hardly blame him for being a bit world-wearying after being nearly eaten by dinosaurs. His bitterness is delightful, in my opinion, because it is funny -- "darkly funny," even. It's not the sort of strong, ugly bitterness that makes you not want to be around someone. It's more of a slightly caustic, sardonic, humorous bitterness. You can tell there's real pain and growing cynicism behind it, but as a movie-watcher, it's an interesting and enjoyable character trait. It's also rare for a sequel character to develop over time. Usually, after someone gets chased by the serial killer, they're all back to normal for the next movie, apparently not permanently damaged by the trauma of the first movie. >And you called another movie "darkly funny"--that made me wonder how >you would define "dark comedy." It also made me wonder whether I >really like dark comedy but just don't know it. In my doctoral >dissertation I wrote about Shakespeare's use of looming death as a >backdrop to make the comedic elements stand out--maybe I just don't >like it when Hollywood does the same thing. I don't remember which movie I recently described as "darkly funny," but it sounds like you more or less have an idea what I mean by it. Morbid humor, gallows humor, humor involving death or anything else that usually given serious treatment, etc. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: [AML] re: KSL and the Church Date: 25 Jul 2001 00:17:35 -0600 >Chris Grant wrote: > >I don't think we should equate KSL's business >decisions with the Church's imprimatur. > >Thom Duncan: > >KSL has in the past exercised editorial control >over its shows. > >Eric D. Snider: > >All of this is reason No. 1 why the church should >get out of the TV business. > Larry Jackson: >I agree with Eric that this is reason No. 1 why >the Church should get out of the business. There >are a number of other good reasons as well. > >"On the other hand," as Tevya* would say, the >No. 1 reason why the Church should stay in >the business is that it gives them access to >satellite time and facilities to broadcast Church >conferences and other programs. I don't think the church would have TOO much trouble finding another Salt Lake station to air conference. It airs in several other parts of the country, too, thanks to one of the local stations donating the time as a public service. Eric D. Snider - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Publishers Date: 25 Jul 2001 08:49:34 -0600 on 7/23/01 6:21 PM, Clifford Dubery at clifford@dubery.com wrote: > I would like to know if anyone can refer me to a publisher as he has produced > an excellent work on the Book of Mormon that we all should have the > opportunity to hear. You might submit to Jackman Music Publishing in Orem, Utah. Or your client could consider self-publishing and finding a distributor. Steve -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 25 Jul 2001 09:47:32 -0600 (MDT) > > I didn't mean to put down the medium--I just told you what thoughts came > into my mind when I saw the term. My point was that other people might > have the same reaction. Your analogy to attitudes toward romance novels was > a good one--same type of knee-jerk reaction. > barbara hume That knee-jerk reaction I beleive is responsible for the cosntant complaint "people don't knoe how to read." I argue instead that readers of superhero comics (like Marvel and DC) know how to read (generally - any group has it's share of mindless drones) - the analysis fans put comics through would put to shame any close reading done by a fromalist critic. However, as the comic readers get older, they are told that they have been reading sub-par literature and they need to stop - they are told their reading experiences are useless and unworthy - so they abandon reading comics, and are never taught how to use the techniques they developed towards other literature. And then teh teachers compaling the kids don't know how to read. That's my contention -and I have lots of evidence to back it up, but I ususally never get to that part because my professors or teachers or friends look at me funny and decide to ignore such an obviously foolish notion. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "???n ??e" Subject: Re: [AML] Query to Eric Snider Date: 25 Jul 2001 08:49:47 -0700 Barbara, I can't answer for how Eric meant, "delightful bitterness," but I think it is an apt description of Sam Neill's Dr. Grant. First, Sam Neill has this smile that even when he's angry, upset, or bitter makes him look like he's harboring a delightful secret. I first remember seeing Sam Neill in the Australian film, _A Cry in the Dark_, a true story about a woman accused of murdering her baby on a campout in a campground infested with dingos. I didn't really notice how his smile affected his character. In _The Hunt For Red October_, however, his Vasily Borodin character had the smile. Instead of delightful bitterness, he seemed to be delightfully cautious. While talking with Captain Ramius in hushed tones about their impending defection to the United States, he speaks of wanting to live in Montana with a pick-up truck. He seems childlike and full of awe at the anticipated freedom, with a touch of disbelief in the midst of fear. In both Jurassic Park movies in which he appears, he carries over the childlike visage and always seems delightful and delighted, even when he's indignant. At one point, he decries the "playing God" mentality that created Jurassic park and somehow, his sly smile leads you to believe that even though he hates what has been done, he still is in awe of it. My bishop asked me how I liked the film. He had heard from members of his family that saw it that it was not very good, that it all seemed like it was just intended to leave the door open for another sequel. I didn't feel that way. Expectedly, the door was left open, but apart from that, the film was good. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 25 Jul 2001 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) --- Mike South wrote: > I've actually been thinking for a while about the > idea of a comic strip with > a Mormon character in it. I think it would address > the problem that we are > afraid we won't be accepted by the outside world > because they don't know the > "real us". > > I think comic strips as a medium offer a unique > opportunity to establish > long-term relationships between the characters and > the reader. When I think about a project like this, I think of "Farley" a daily comic strip run exclusively in the San Francisco Chronicle. The strip comments on and makes cracks about life, culture and politics in the Bay Area. There is a set groups of characters who provide long-term relationships like you describe above and a rotating group of 'topical' characters e.g. whoever is mayor of San Francisco at the time, etc. [topical characters---for external use only]. I use "Farley" as an example because although it can be biting, it is also good natured----it's the kind of comic that a Mormon audience might accept. Of course, this would be a comic with a limited audience (Farley only appeals to Bay Area folks and really only to those for whom life here is an integral part of their cultural identity). You can find Farley here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/comics/Farley.dtl > I think a well done strip with a Mormon character > could both tell great > stories and show the world that we know we have > foibles just like everyone > else. And how we deal with the fact that deep down > many of us feel like > we're not supposed to have those foibles. > I think that this is part of the reason why I brought up the idea of Mormon graphic novels in the first place, although I didn't think to include comic strips in my initial post. But, yeah, I agree with Mike. Different media can accomplish different things in the world of Mormon literature. It's quite likely that a comic could explore the foibles and pitfalls and incongruities of Mormon culture in a way that would be more 'acceptable' to a Mormon audience. As Mike mentions above, readers develop long-term relationships with the characters in the strip, which means that after you build your audience you can sometimes introduce ideas/topics/humor that your audience might reject if presented in a different way. Of course, it seems like what Mike may be referring to is a strip that would have appeal to a national audience i.e. not an insider comic like "Farley" but maybe something like "For Better or For Worse" with a Mormon character or family. > Of course, well done is subjective. Many strips > today seem like shallow > imitations of bad sitcoms -- just an excuse for > characters to zing each > other. Or to show how witty the author can be when > weighing in on political > topics of the day. But there are examples from the > past that show the form > is more than capable of handling difficult themes, > complex characterization, > and engaging story lines: Krazy Kat, Little Nemo In > Slumberland, and Barnaby > come to mind. In the last 50 years though there have > been fewer notable > strips. The only great ones I can think of are > Peanuts, Bloom County, and > Calvin & Hobbes. > I don't think that he yet reaches the level of the strips Mike mentions above, but I do want to plug Howard Tayler, the author of "Schlock Mercenary" an excellent daily sci-fi Web comic. Howard is a fellow saint and occasionally throws in (often sly) references to Mormon culture in his work (although to my knowledge there are no Mormon characters yet). More importantly his comic manages to combine engaging long-term story lines with daily humor. While much of the humor is sci-fi related (including hilarious spoofs of Star Trek, Microsoft), I'd still recommend it to non-geeks. You can find schlock here: http://www.schlockmercenary.com/. Since it is a serial comic, I'd recommend using the drop-down bar on the main page to start reading from the beginning of one of the episodes. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 25 Jul 2001 12:08:13 -0600 On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 02:53:03PM -0700, Terri Reid wrote: > So, do we write our characters with "hints" of religious beliefs - i.e. > Battlestar Galactica and Kolob or perhaps Kenny Kemp - where only the > Mormons watching/reading get it? > > Or do we start infiltrating our fiction with "real" glimpses of Mormon life > - but in a way that it is a part of the character - not a reproduction of > an ad for the church? (I think actually that Orson Scott Card did a fairly > good job of this with "Saints.") I don't think any of these "Should we?" questions really help us define the true and correct directions of Mormon literature, mainly because Mormon literature doesn't really have a true and correct direction as a whole, on a true and correct direction for individual authors and readers. Although this sounds like the broken record (skipping CD?) of writing advice, you write what feels right to you for the story you want to tell. I don't think that we should set out to write stories that have real Mormons as characters unless that character makes sense in your story. What if, for example, you want to write a historical novel about a family during the revolutionary war. You cannot have an explicitly Mormon character in that setting (unless you want to introduce John or one of the three Nephites). But you can have a basically moral character that exhibits a belief system that parallels ours. If you set your story in our day, then you have to choose characters that make sense for your plot. If you set your story in Utah, then you would probably want to match the population distribution by making at least half your characters Mormon. If you set your story in China, then you would need a really good reason to include a Mormon character. I believe that if you try to include additional Mormonness in your stories for the edification of the reader, then you will probably produce didactic literature that fails to interest the readers you wanted reach. People who want a sermon already go to church. You also have to keep your intended audience in mind. Your everyday, John Doe reader will probably not mind a Mormon character in a story if that character fits the plot. But you probably could not sell John the story about the temple president's conflict and the revelation he received in the celestial room that solves his problem. But you probably can sell that to Molly Mormon. -- Terry L Jeffress | Advice to young writers who want to get | ahead without any annoying delays: don't | write about Man, write about a man. | -- E. B. White - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: [AML] Cherie CALL, _Heart Made of Wind_ Date: 25 Jul 2001 12:10:26 -0600 [MOD: You can slum in our district anytime...] Okay, it might be a little off-topic for an LDS literary list, but those of us peeking over the wall into the LDS literary world from inside the LDS music world wish we had a similar list to trumpet our favorite virtuous, lovely, of good report, acoustic, praiseworthy, and somewhat groovy musical discoveries. Cherie Call - Heart Made of Wind. Available through Excel Distribution 1-800-566-6114 and www.cheriecall.com. I think this is a terrific album by a terrific songwriter. Her influences--Just guessing here--Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, but really who knows and who cares when it sounds original and grows on you more with every listening? There's a good review at: http://www.meridianmagazine.com/music/010508hearts.html which is a little on the intellectual side, but gets it right. I just wanted list members who enjoy contemporary acoustic music not to miss this one. :-) Steve Perry -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 25 Jul 2001 13:17:00 -0700 Ronn Blankenship wrote: > At 05:28 PM 7/24/01, Mike South wrote: > > >I've actually been thinking for a while about the idea of a comic strip with > >a Mormon character in it. > > Of course, there's already "Pickles," where the LDS elements are rather > subtle, like a picture of the temple hanging on the wall in the > background. Then there was the independent super-hero comic "Captain > Canuck," about a super-hero from the Great White North who happened to be > LDS. (BTW, Thom, whatever happened to your idea for a Mormon comic book > that we talked about . . . ?) "Captain Moroni" is what he turned out to be. A true super-hero in the classic sense. Called by an angel to his sacred duty to fight against evil in the world. I wrote the first origin episode but never found an artist to bring it to life. Captain Moroni's secret identity was a BYU student (a la Peter Parker). I seem to recall he had a breastplate that protected him from harm, carried a staff made from Joseph's coffin that had healing powers, and a whole bunch of other cool stuff. All his powers had a basis in known or little-known Mormon history and folk doctrine. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 25 Jul 2001 13:21:02 -0700 Ivan Angus Wolfe wrote: > > > > I didn't mean to put down the medium--I just told you what thoughts > came > > into my mind when I saw the term. My point was that other people might > > have the same reaction. Your analogy to attitudes toward romance > novels was > > a good one--same type of knee-jerk reaction. > > barbara hume > > That knee-jerk reaction I beleive is responsible for the cosntant > complaint "people don't knoe how to read." > > I argue instead that readers of superhero comics (like Marvel and DC) > know how to read (generally - any group has it's share of mindless > drones) - the analysis fans put comics through would put to shame any > close reading done by a fromalist critic. However, as the comic > readers get older, they are told that they have been reading sub-par > literature and they need to stop - they are told their reading > experiences are useless and unworthy - so they abandon reading comics, Never happened to me. I became a closet comic book reader. I would sneak them into my bed under the covers and read them via a flashlight. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 25 Jul 2001 14:23:27 -0600 (MDT) I hurridly wrtoe: > That knee-jerk reaction I beleive is responsible for the cosntant > complaint "people don't knoe how to read." Of course, comics may be a contributing factor in the fact that I can't type! -Ivan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] Help AML Contact Colleges Date: 25 Jul 2001 14:35:36 -0600 How about the College of Eastern Utah in Price? Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 25 Jul 2001 15:48:05 -0500 Whoops! I'm sorry, Kathy and all the rest of you, I meant to send that note to Kathy privately but forgot to change the "To:" address. My apologies. Linda Adams >>Kathy Grant > >Thanks, Kathy! I always feel nervous before I hit the "send" key >on posts like that one--highly charged--and I'm glad to hear you >appreciated it. > >Frank Maxwell says you're in Gilroy, but not his ward? Is that right? I >went to high school in Hollister. Are you in the Young's ward? Are the >Smurthwaite's & the Eggers' still around? I'm just curious because it's my >old stomping grounds. Nice to meet someone from "home!" (Even if it's been >YEARS since I've visited.) > >Linda Adams - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Internet: More Performers and Composers Date: 25 Jul 2001 17:30:10 -0400 NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- New websites by LDS composers and performers led = the=20 new websites listed in Mormon directories this past week. Sites for = composer=20 Melanie Gunsay, singer-songwriter Jared Utley and German-language = performer=20 Maike Hamman all featured the basic features found in musician's = websites,=20 with Gunsay's perhaps the nicest site of the three, while Hamman uses = the=20 artists pages provided on the popular mp3s.com service. In addition to the musicians, several personal webpages were joined by a = site that tries to combat misrepresentations by anti-Mormons: The Truth=20 About Mormonism, and a french-language site that tries to provide=20 information about the LDS Church. Newly Listed Mormon Websites: Melanie Gunsay: Composer http://www.melaniegunsay.com/=20 Page for sacred music composer. Includes a biography, information about = the=20 albums Gunsay has produced, links to listen to her music, and a = newsletter=20 mailing list for fans to join. Lee Hamblin Homepage http://www.lhwebdev.com/lee/=20 Web page for Lee Hamblin, which includes photos, information about BYU,=20 files, information about Guatemala, his family and links to a variety of = sites, including some LDS-oriented sites. Maike Hamman http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/227/maike_hamman.html=20 mp3s page for german folk musician who is reportedly an LDS Church = member.=20 Page has information about her albums, biographical information, contact = information, links, and a performance calendar. Idumea.org http://www.idumea.org/=20 French-language page for information about the LDS Church. Kolobquest http://communities.msn.com/kolobquest/=20 A personal website with photos and links to the LDS Church's website, = LDS=20 World and to the RLDS Church's Graceland College. Justin Utley http://www.justinutley.com=20 Website for singer-songwriter and performer Justin Utley. Site includes=20 information about Utley's two albums. Visitors can hear songs from the=20 albums and purchase them. The Truth About Anti-Mormonism http://www.angelfire.com/sk2/ldsdefense/index.html=20 An LDS apologetic resource page, with links to information about the LDS = Church and pages of information about anti-Mormon misrepresentations. The Voyles http://users.yourvillage.com/avoyles/index.html=20 Family page for the Voyles family, including pages for brothers, = grandkids,=20 and the family's ancestry. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Cherie CALL, _Heart Made of Wind_ Date: 25 Jul 2001 15:53:53 -0600 On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:10:26 -0600 Steve writes: > [MOD: You can slum in our district anytime...] > > Okay, it might be a little off-topic for an LDS literary list, but > those of us peeking over the wall into the LDS literary world > from inside the LDS music world Don't most songs have lyrics? I see no reason whatsoever for songwriting to be off topic. We've certainly moaned about the dearth of "good" hymns around here. I'd love to talk about some great LDS CDs. > Cherie Call - Heart Made of Wind. > Available through Excel Distribution 1-800-566-6114 > and www.cheriecall.com. I saw Cheri perform one of her songs at a dance concert a couple of months ago. It was very nice and so was she. I met her afterwards. May I also suggest Kenneth Cope's "stories from eden's garden?" I think it's quite a sublime collection of songs. And Greg Simpson is LONG overdue for a followup to his fine rock album, "Seven Wonders." I think there's some nice lyricising (I love the english language -- I can make up words any time I feel like it.) going on in these albums. Julie de Azevedo has some nice lyrics too, but her performance lacks heart. Even though the production on her "Dive Deep" is very, very nice (John Hancock, I think), I don't get any special pleasure in listening to her sing. It has nothing to do with the quality of her voice; she'a about on par with Joni Mitchell or Judy Collins, but she's got no personality. Anyway, just my few thoughts about contemorary LDS music. J. Scott Bronson -- Member of Playwrights Circle --- "The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent upon it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do." Galileo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Help AML Contact Colleges Date: 25 Jul 2001 16:05:50 -0700 Is that a volunteer to coordinate getting flyers to that college? -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 1:35 PM How about the College of Eastern Utah in Price? Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Stringer Subject: [AML] Harding Play Staged Reading Date: 25 Jul 2001 16:45:53 -0600 I am hoping this is something that is allowed on the list. [MOD: Absolutely!] I just returned from Cedar City, Utah and enjoying another great couple of days at the Shakespearean Festival. I wanted to alert or remind, whichever the case may be, that Marianne Hales Harding has a play in the "Plays in Progress" program this year and I shall be going back down to Cedar City on the 30th to a staged reading of it. It is also being performed on August 16 and 17. According to the Festival Playbook, the readings will be held at 10:15am in the Downtown Cedar Theater at 33 North Main Street. Admission is complimentary, but they are asking for a $5 to $10 contribution to help cover costs. I am looking forward to it. Her play is "Next Rest Stop 78 Miles" Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN A Pioneer Days Celebration: Washington DC Temple Visitors' Center Date: 25 Jul 2001 19:24:09 -0400 WASHINGTON, DC -- The Washington DC Temple Visitors' Center Presents a=20 Pioneer Days Celebration featuring Todd Thatcher and Musical Guests on=20 Saturday, July 28 at 7 p.m. Todd Thatcher and his Musical Guests are all members of The Church of = Jesus=20 Christ of Latter-day Saints and reside in the Washington Metropolitan = area.=20 They enjoy performing at local ward firesides and activities, and are=20 currently working on recording a studio album. Program:=20 "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief" "Brighter Days in Store" "How Firm a Foundation" "I Will Go and Do What the Lord Hath Commanded" "Whoa, Haw, Buck and Jerry Boys" "Come, Come, Ye Saints" "This is the Place" "To Those Who Came Before Me" "Faith In Every Footstep" Washington DC Temple Visitors' Center 9900 Stoneybrook Drive Kensington, MD=20 301-587-0144 >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 26 Jul 2001 00:30:39 -0600 I have to agree Alan. I admire writers that risk doing cultural critique, that feel a mission to change the world, that write because they feel compelled to try and make a difference. In response to your words below, I want to share one anectdote. I was talking to a student at BYU who was in an advanced degree program in counseling. He told me that Levi Peterson's stories helped him in working with his Mormon clients more than any of the theory he was studying in school. His comment was one reason I decided to do my master's degree in English rather than in psychology or sociology. As the mother of six sons, ages 14-26, I find Peterson's work to also be revelatory in exposing the intenstity of the sexual feelings that young (and old) males (and females) go through, and the (somtimes tortured) internal conflict that can create in a rigorously strict religious belief system and culture. Gae Lyn Henderson (who tries to fit her 6 sons into every post if possible) > > Disturbing the Perfect Saints. Although I don't relate to much of Levi > Peterson's writing, I think the short story, "The Christening of Cobern > Heights," is a beautiful example of this point. The difficulty > comes because > the perfect saints are not likely to read Levi. The question becomes: How > can Gerald Lund do this in a nice (correlated) way? > > Disclaimer: by "Perfect Saints" I mean those of us striving for perfection > and need the occasional kick upside the head. > > Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 26 Jul 2001 00:31:41 -0600 > I must disagree strenuously. First of all, that wasn't just > "explicit," it > was practically pornography. It was so incredibly graphic that I was > completely shocked to see it in mainstream movie. Who saw > Jerry's face in > that shocking flash of flesh? There were plenty of other things > that serve > as a baseline for Jerry's character and even if you really really > wanted to > show his great resignation during sex there was no real need to get that > graphic. It took me out of the story completely. > > Marianne Hales Harding I saw the Utah County "Clean Flicks" version. No sex at all in the movie. Quite a number of bleeped words. A great story about materistic versus personal values. I suspect that many AML listers might feel such external cutting defiles the sacred realm of authorship and artistic vision. Maybe I ought to argue that myself, after all I'm an English teacher and I just posted something about the sexuality in Levi Peterson's work being morally valuable. BUT, because it is Wednesday, and as the mother of six sons, I sometimes put on my conservative Mormon mother persona and go for the edited version. In fact I wouldn't have seen it otherwise. Now why do I do that? Training and lots of church talks? Am I more afraid of visual representations of sex than written ones? Do I really think I can protect my kids in this age of computer-available everything? Do I have a split personality because of my culture? I love to read Eric Samuelson's liberatory vision of see no evil in art. Why am I such a wimp about it myself? Or am I just not (completely) corrupted yet? Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: Re: [AML] Harding Play Staged Reading Date: 26 Jul 2001 10:22:43 -0600 >I am looking forward to it. Her play is "Next Rest Stop 78 Miles" > >Eileen Stringer >eileens99@bigplanet.com I'm working on it even as we speak :-) I hope you'll get to see my work often at Utah Shakes--and I look forward to meeting an AML-er there. I'll be at the readings on Aug 16th and 17th and I would love it if any of the AML-listers in the area would come out. It's not an overtly Mormon play, but it had the good fortune to have an overtly Mormon playwright :-) Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 26 Jul 2001 11:44:39 -0700 (PDT) --- Terry L Jeffress wrote: > I don't think any of these "Should we?" questions > really help us > define the true and correct directions of Mormon > literature, mainly > because Mormon literature doesn't really have a true > and correct > direction as a whole, on a true and correct > direction for individual > authors and readers. > This sentiment--that nobody should be saying what authors should be writing--seems to be fairly widespread among Mormon writers and critics. I agree that no one person can command the direction of Mormon literature, and that the laissez faire approach makes sense, especially in a culture that has very discriminating tastes in art (in both the negative and positive sense), but I think raising the 'should' kind of questions are important for Mormon artists to consider on a personal creative level. I'm not convinced that letting the muse runs its course is always the best idea---which leads me to the next section below: > Although this sounds like the broken record > (skipping CD?) of writing > advice, you write what feels right to you for the > story you want to > tell. I don't think that we should set out to write > stories that have > real Mormons as characters unless that character > makes sense in your > story. I think I understand this idea. I've certainly heard it from fiction writers of all colors and persuasions. In almost every author interview I've ever read/heard, the author says something like: "This character sat down and spoke to me. She even surprised me in places, taking me to places I hadn't anticipated, even resisting some of the directions I was trying to take her in." I've been in the flow. I know that when you start over-thinking things, it doesn't work. I've felt those details, those words, those actions well up from someplace deep in my mind (not that my mind is the marianis trench or anything). I understand that trying to force an ideological-based slant breaks up the flow, kills the narrative, turns the writing from elegant to stilted. And yet I still don't like the idea that this all justifies the final narrative---that somehow there isn't choice involved. Now I'm not saying that authors give themselves over to some evil muse that subverts their moral center. I don't believe that writers channel evil (or at least most don't). And I understand that one can write about evil, depict sin, and still be a moral person. And I agree that readers need to focus on the complete story and not obssess over 'distasteful' details. So where does this leave me? I'm not sure. I think what I'm struggling with is this idea about being true to the story. Terry says above that "you have to write what feels right to you for the story you want to tell." Don't we, to some extent, choose what feels right to us? That said, I'm not sure how we make those choices---it's probably not something we can completely control because it's the amalgam of our physical, spiritual, and reading experiences (which often overlap), but don't we still make choices about what influences we absorb and what projects we decide to pursue? Now this is not fair to Terry because I'm using his quote in a way he probably didn't mean. Judging from the rest of his post, he's simply making the point that you can't force Mormon-ness on a story that resists it i.e. his historical fiction example. Plus he makes the point that Mormon literature can express the Mormon point of view without employing Mormon characters. But still I ask, do we not choose our muse? Has anyone actually said, wait a minute, I'm not sure that the form/content/plot/voice of this story is taking me in a direction I'm comfortable (comfort on a moral not aesthetic level) with? Can one choose to temper the demands of high-brow aesthetics or genre expectations and still write something that's not horribly didactic? Actually, all literature is didactic in my book. 'L'iterature teaches us that ambiguity and form are paramount. I don't necessarily dispute that agenda, just like I don't dispute the agendas (the demands) of genre fiction. I enjoy reading both. And I like good writing. But I sometimes ask myself what I'm giving up by giving into the demands of a certain form, a certain story, and I wonder if there are alternatives. That's probably why I'm still a weak writer of fiction. Well this post is way too abstract and self-indulgent, but I still think we should ask ourselves "should we?" sometimes. I like the idea of a diverse Mormon literature, but I also would like to see a Mormon literature that resists more often the dominant ways of writing. Yes, many attempts by 'minor' literatures to do just that have failed, but the possibilities still intrigue me. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] MN New Products: Classic Books Reissued, Edgar Mint Gets Critical Praise: Kent Larsen 25Jul01 US NY NYC A4 Date: 26 Jul 2001 17:31:25 -0400 Classic Books Reissued, Edgar Mint Gets Critical Praise NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- This week's new books include two classics that have been reissued, and a new novel that is winning national critical praise. Dean Jessee's "Personal Writings of Joseph Smith" and B. H. Roberts' "Mormon Battalion" have both been reissued in new editions from LDS publishers, while two new books, Lewis B. Horne's collection of short stories and Brady Udall's novel, "The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint" are likely to gain crtical praise, already seen in the case of Udall's "Edgar Mint." New and recent products: Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, edited by Dean C. Jessee Deseret Book Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Author $27.95 New (second) edition of this compilation of Joseph Smith's diaries and journals. Mormon Battalion by B. H. Roberts Maasai Publishing Book; LDS Publisher; Non-Fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $11.95 New edition of B. H. Robert's classic account of the trek of the Mormon Battalion's 2,000-mile march from Winter Quarters through Colorado and Arizona to California and the Pacific. Out of print since the original edition was published in 1919. The House of James and Other Stories by Lewis B. Horne Signature Books Book; LDS Publisher; Fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $14.95 Horne writes stories about common people who are finding their way through life. In one, James, a new convert to Mormonism, is asked by his bishop to rent a room to an ex-covict. In another, Fred watches helplessly as his high school sweetheart chooses between him and a new life back east. But while the author doesn't give all the answers to life's questions, he captures the mood and psychological pressures on ordinary people trying to choose between conflicting values, between irreconcilable options, who encounter unwanted circumstances which can ironically sometimes prove to be blessings in disguise. The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint: A Novel by Brady Udall W.W. Norton & Company Book; National Publisher; Fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $24.95 "A witty, wise and heart-wrenching tale of a naive orphan's struggle to survive an often unforgiving world," this novel tells the story of an indian youth as he moves through an Arizona reservation into an LDS foster family and into adulthood. Edgar Mint is the bastard son of a rebellious Apache girl who is severely injured when a mailman's jeep runs over his head at age 7. Revived by a doctor at a local hospital, he is discovered by two LDS missionaries who find him an LDS foster home in Utah. But Edgar has a difficult life with his foster Mormon family, discovering that the family also has it problems, from marital infidelity to a sexually curious teenage daughter, and is himself troubled, lying, stealing and even committing a murder. Early reviews of the novel have given it critical praise, including from novelist Tony Earley who said, "If Dickens had been born in Arizona, he might have written a book like this." See also: Brady Udall's New Novel Looks at an Indian in Mormondom http://www.mormonstoday.com/010622/A2BUdall01.shtml >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 26 Jul 2001 13:34:21 -0400 Many moons ago, while we were students at BYU, a couple of my friends were producing a comic strip based on the Book of Mormon. If memory serves (steady, steady) their names were Pepper Power and Leo Paur. Both of them had drawings published in The Leading Edge, and I've seen Leo's name as director (or maybe producer) of the current Batman cartoon series. Anybody have updates on these guys, their projects? Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN "City of Joseph" Pageant Starts; Expects to Draw 50,000: Burlington IA The Hawk Eye 23Jul01 US IL Nauv A1 Date: 26 Jul 2001 17:36:47 -0400 "City of Joseph" Pageant Starts; Expects to Draw 50,000 NAUVOO, ILLINOIS -- Nearly 1,000 cast and crew members gathered in Navoo, Illinois this week, as preparation for this year's "City of Joseph" pageant got underway. It is estimated that 50,000 people will attend the two week pageant that will tell the story of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint's prophet Joseph Smith and the founding of the city of Nauvoo in 1839. For the McGraw family, and eight of their ten children, it will be their fourth year the family has participated. For the Clinton family of ten, it will be a two week summer vacation that no one wants to miss. "It's just the most wonderful thing to do with family," said Ellen McGraw of Roanoke, VA. "There is so much bonding that goes on." After the first year, the kids just won't let us not come," she added. Last year, Matt Clinton, now 17, saw the musical, "City of Joseph" for the first time. "I thought it was really cool and I could do the stuff that they did so I knew I wanted to be in it," he said. But the best way for Matt to join in was to convince the Clinton family that they should try it too. "We were told the best way for Matt to be in was if our whole family was in it, because they only take whole families," Yvonne said. "And I said, 'Oh, can you imagine our whole family?'" "When we got that letter of acceptance, there were shouts of joy around here," Yvonne said, surprised that all of the family shared Matt's desire to participate. "They were so excited. In fact, we've had complete unity." The family will stay in a cabin and eat their meals in a mess hall. Yvonne compared the costs of staying home and buying groceries and they were the same. The opportunity to be in close proximity to other cast members allows them to have more interaction with people from all over the country. Brik Eyre of Libertyville, Illinois will play Joseph Smith and is practicing with the cast for the first time. He and his wife, along with their five children, are all in the show. Their 2 and 1/2 month old baby will be carried on the outdoor stage in a family scene. Eyre said he knew the story of Nauvoo and Joseph Smith, but really began to understand Smith and the times he lived in while researching the role. "That's been actually a very humbling experience," he said. "City of Joseph" was written in the 1970's by R. Don Oscarson and co-author Maughan W. McMurdie. Oscarson will be returning to Nauvoo this year to play the part of narrator Walt. Lynn Bodily, a choreographer with the Schubert and Ariac Crown theaters in Chicago, will director the current production. She said the Church has spent some $13,000 on new costumes for this year's pageant along with a new Nauvoo Temple prop showing the structure from a somewhat different angle. "They thought it could be more authentic," Bodily said. Like the town of Nauvoo, the musical captures the feel of the 1840's through the authentic costumes, some made by cast members, and the sets. "Brent has had to grow a beard, all the boys had to grow their hair out because boys wore their hair longer then and the dresses are very period dated," Yvonne Clinton said. "I'm past the itch part, so it's been OK, but I'm looking forward to shaving it off," Brent Clinton said. "People wonder why I'm growing a beard in the middle of summer. Well, this is why." Vigorous rehearsal schedules, 15-hour days and the sweltering midday sun are all taken in stride in preparation for Friday night's first performance at 8:30 p.m. at the outdoor amphitheater across Parley Street from the Nauvoo Restoration Inc.Visitors Center. Performances are scheduled for Friday and Saturday with the show resuming July31 and running through August 4. Some seating is available but lawn chairs and blankets are welcome. "City of Joseph" is second in attendance only to the "Hill Cumorah" pageant held in Palmyra, N.Y. Source: Nauvoo readies for annual pageant Burlington IA The Hawk Eye 23Jul01 A1 http://www.thehawkeye.com/daily/stories/ln23071.html By Stephen A. Martin: The Hawk Eye Cast and crew of 1,000 gather for retelling of Mormon story. Clinton family to take part in 'City of Joseph' play Clinton IA Herald 24Jul01 P2 http://www.zwire.com/news/newsstory.cfm?newsid=2125677&title=Clinton%20famil y%20to%20take%20part%20in%20%27City%20of%20Joseph%27%20play&BRD=1408&PAG=461 &CATNAME=Top%20Stories&CATEGORYID=410 By Don Berger Herald Staff Writer >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] KSL and the Church Date: 26 Jul 2001 12:39:52 -0700 Chris Grant wrote: > Thom Duncan writes: > > [...] > >KSL has in the past exercised editorial control over its > >shows. > > Right. But did Spielberg's hard line regarding editing--recall > the brouhaha involving _Schindler's List_ and BYU--and time > constraints--Spielberg's TV cut of _Schindler's List_ was not > made available to affiliates until the night it was aired--give > KSL the option to edit out nude scenes? KSL didn't edit out the nude scenes. The ones in the camps they kept as are. The nude scenes of naked women in bed were skillfully shadowed. > And then showed equally racy SNL material in prime time during > the Thursday Night Live broadcasts. Yeah, I can't figure that one out. > >I think D. Mike is right. If it shows on KSL, the Church must > >at least tacitly approve. > > When columnists at Church-owned _Deseret News_ condemn the same > shows KSL is airing, do we then conclude that the Church both > tacitly approves *and* tacitly disapproves of these shows? Columnists don't represent the paper as a whole, and therefore not the Church, but rather their own opinions. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Harding Play Staged Reading Date: 26 Jul 2001 16:51:13 -0700 Marianne Hales Harding wrote: > >I am looking forward to it. Her play is "Next Rest Stop 78 Miles" > > > >Eileen Stringer > >eileens99@bigplanet.com > > I'm working on it even as we speak :-) I hope you'll get to see my work > often at Utah Shakes--and I look forward to meeting an AML-er there. I'll > be at the readings on Aug 16th and 17th and I would love it if any of the > AML-listers in the area would come out. It's not an overtly Mormon play, > but it had the good fortune to have an overtly Mormon playwright :-) And a very good reading at Playwrights Circle, when Marianne was local and could meet with us regularly. Congrats from your fellow Playwrights Circle members. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 26 Jul 2001 21:17:21 -0600 On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:44:39 -0700 (PDT), William Morris wrote: >I'm not sure. I think what I'm struggling with is >this idea about being true to the story. Terry says >above that "you have to write what feels right to you >for the story you want to tell." Don't we, to some >extent, choose what feels right to us? >Has anyone actually said, wait a minute, I'm not sure >that the form/content/plot/voice of this story is >taking me in a direction I'm comfortable (comfort on a >moral not aesthetic level) with? Yes. I had developed a story that I thought was very strong, about a subject I cared about, in a genre I love. I discovered that the combination of all those things created a story that was beyond my ability--beyond my = comfort level--to tell. To do so would have meant immersing myself in a world I didn't want to be in, without any guarantee that I could eventually pull = it off. It was, in short, a story I decided I didn't want to tell. My solution was to set it aside. Understand that I did not do this lightly. I do not come up with plots easily and I almost never come up with plots that mean something. I = worked at this for three years before I stopped. Also, it's not the only = solution. Another writer might have found a better way to tell the story; others = might not have worried about the kind of story it was going to be. But as far = as I could tell, it had to be a bloody, dark, twisted tale about some really evil things, and sanitizing that vision would have meant sacrificing something really powerful. And I decided I would rather not write it at = all than write something wishy-washy. >Well this post is way too abstract and self-indulgent, >but I still think we should ask ourselves "should we?" >sometimes. I like the idea of a diverse Mormon >literature, but I also would like to see a Mormon >literature that resists more often the dominant ways >of writing. To me it depends on what "we" means. I don't like the idea of "should = we?" that restricts the ability of each artist to represent his or her own = vision of Mormon literature. I *would* like it to mean that Mormon artists = don't need to feel constrained to tell only stories that will be acceptable to = the world, or only stories that look like everyone else's stories. The best thing about writing is that nobody is given just one perfect story to tell--you get lots and lots of chances. Forgoing one of them is more = like waiting for the next elevator than missing the last lifeboat off the Titanic. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 26 Jul 2001 21:43:52 -0600 ---Original Message From: Gae Lyn Henderson > I saw the Utah County "Clean Flicks" version. No sex at all > in the movie. Quite a number of bleeped words. A great story > about materistic versus personal values. > > Now why do I do that? Training and lots of church talks? Am > I more afraid of visual representations of sex than written > ones? Do I really think I can protect my kids in this age of > computer-available everything? Do I have a split personality > because of my culture? I love to read Eric Samuelson's > liberatory vision of see no evil in art. Why am I such a > wimp about it myself? Or am I just not (completely) corrupted yet? I wouldn't have seen an unedited version of Jerry McGuire if I were in your situation, either. At least, not at home. I think there is a huge difference in situations that can change things from appropriate to inappropriate. We watch a number of movies after the kids go to bed that we'd never, ever, watch with them anywhere around. Some of those are rated PG. Many of them are movies other families let their kids watch. Individual situations, tastes, tolerance, and weaknesses vary. It isn't about deciding which of us is corrupt. It's about recognizing what each of us uses to make the value judgments that we do. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Rex Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 26 Jul 2001 22:24:57 -0600 Gae Lyn, (Good to hear from you---when are you bringing the horses out and herding cows?) You wrote: I was > talking to a student at BYU who was in an advanced degree program in > counseling. He told me that Levi Peterson's stories helped him in working > with his Mormon clients more than any of the theory he was studying in > school. His comment was one reason I decided to do my master's degree in > English rather than in psychology or sociology. I have no doubt Peterson's stories have the effect of sorting out such feelings. But when readers like me revolt at the world view contained therein, we are likely to throw the book across the room and pull out the Discourses of Brig. Young for some balance/adult supervision. > As the mother of six sons, ages 14-26, I find Peterson's work to also be > revelatory in exposing the intenstity of the sexual feelings that young (and > old) males (and females) go through, and the (somtimes tortured) internal > conflict that can create in a rigorously strict religious belief system and > culture. Interestingly, I think it is the wallowing in permissive-ness that causes the most tortured internal conflicts. Yes, the young (and old) feel guilt and conflict in regards to said feelings, but if you consider those souls that feel no guilt with regard to their sexual actions, then according to the venerable Harold Bloom, that is much worse. Because then they can feel no love. And by the way, do you feel Barry Monroe words convey the negotiating of the conflicted feelings? > Gae Lyn Henderson (who tries to fit her 6 sons into every post if possible) Alan Rex Mitchell (who tries to fit Barry Monroe into every post if possible) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rwilliams Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 27 Jul 2001 00:10:09 -0600 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Original Message From aml-list@lists.xmission.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> I must disagree strenuously. First of all, that wasn't just >> "explicit," it >> was practically pornography. It was so incredibly graphic that I was >> completely shocked to see it in mainstream movie. Who saw >> Jerry's face in >> that shocking flash of flesh? There were plenty of other things >> that serve >> as a baseline for Jerry's character and even if you really really >> wanted to >> show his great resignation during sex there was no real need to get that >> graphic. It took me out of the story completely. >> >> Marianne Hales Harding > > >I saw the Utah County "Clean Flicks" version. No sex at all in the movie. >Quite a number of bleeped words. A great story about materistic versus >personal values. > >I suspect that many AML listers might feel such external cutting defiles the >sacred realm of authorship and artistic vision. Maybe I ought to argue that >myself, after all I'm an English teacher and I just posted something about >the sexuality in Levi Peterson's work being morally valuable. BUT, because >it is Wednesday, and as the mother of six sons, I sometimes put on my >conservative Mormon mother persona and go for the edited version. In fact I >wouldn't have seen it otherwise. > >Now why do I do that? Training and lots of church talks? Am I more afraid >of visual representations of sex than written ones? Do I really think I can >protect my kids in this age of computer-available everything? Do I have a >split personality because of my culture? I love to read Eric Samuelson's >liberatory vision of see no evil in art. Why am I such a wimp about it >myself? Or am I just not (completely) corrupted yet? > > >Gae Lyn Henderson > This is my first post, though I=92ve been following several threads, at least, cursorily. And before I respond, perhaps I should introduce myself. My name is John Williams, and I was educated at BYU, then USU (where I just finished my thesis, hence the lack of time for posting), and will be starting a Ph.D. in Comparative Literature at UC Irvine this fall. So that=92s me anyway. To be honest, I didn=92t read exactly what Gae Lyn said earlier about =93the sexuality in Levi Peterson=92s work being morally valuable,=94 but I=92d like to make two points about her post. First of all, I think the sexuality in Levi Peterson=92s work IS morally valuable. In fact, I think Levi illustrates, particularly in _The Backslider_, that Mormons should actually WELCOME =93Sex in Literature=94 as portrayed by other Mormons. Why leave the portrayal of sex to those who are bound to misinterpret its sacred power? Secondly, in answer to Gae Lyn=92s question =93Am I more afraid of visual representations of sex than written ones?=94 I would answer YES, or at least, you should be. I don=92t buy the argument that sex portrayed vividly on a screen is equal to sex portrayed vividly in literature. As this discussion has gone on, I have noticed a rather disturbing conflation of the two. I would argue, however, that literature might be the only really safe place to portray sex, or violence, or whatever. Of course, I recognize that the human mind has a wonderfully creative ability to conjure up images, and that some literature, designed to titillate, also counts as pornography, because it =93does dirt=94 on sex. Fine. We won=92t waste our time with that. But whereas a photograph of two people having sex violates my sense of modesty and morality, a literary portrayal seems much more innocuous. As evidence, just try recalling the EXACT wording of some sex scene you=92ve ever read in a book. I=92ve read several. I can remember reading dozens of sex scenes in Gabriele Garcia Marquez=92s _Love in the Time of Cholera_, but the precise details escape me. I may be able to recall a few disparate images, but they certainly don=92t stick in my mind the way that dirty magazine from 8th grade does. Photographs of people having sex, even more than drawings of the same, breach the shield of aesthetic distance that literature can provide. They thrust the viewer into an immediate, and disturbingly intimate relationship with the actors. Literature doesn=92t do this. And, as a Graduate Instructor at USU having graded several papers on the subject of =93external cutting defil[ing] the sacred realm of authorship and artistic vision,=94 I have to say that logically there isn=92t any substance to this argument. Take, for example, the brouhaha about editing Titanic or any of the R rated movies in Utah County. The =93artistic integrity=94 argument goes something like this: The director created the film with a specific logical sequence in mind, and to interrupt or skip over these scenes, thus catering to the =93less mature=94 audience, would be to disrupt the artistic wholeness of the film. Okay, great. But the same logic implies two very overlooked arguments: (1) If we shouldn=92t ever interrupt the artistic continuity of a film then, naturally, there shouldn=92t be ANY films on TV, unless they can show them without commercials. (=93Don=92t cut out the sex or violence, but go ahead and interrupt with Purina Cat Chow and Walmart commercials every five minutes, it shouldn=92t affect the director=92s =93original=94 intention.) (2) And speaking of the director=92s original intention, has anyone else noticed that at the beginning of every video there is a small disclaimer stating =93this film has been modified and formatted to fit your screen blah blah blah=94? I used to think this was a hilarious announcement since, if they hadn=92t formatted it to fit my screen, and had merely cut out nineteen inches of the huge movie screen, then all I=92d ever see is an occasional ankle. Of course, what they really mean is that they have scrunched the wider movie screen to fit my square-shaped TV screen. But doesn=92t viewing =93Saving Private Ryan=94 on my wimpy little nineteen inch screen contradict the director=92s =93original=94 intention anyway? I=92m not a cinematographer but I assume that the effect is VERY different, even=97do we dare say it?=97altered? Most people who get upset with movie editing are rather hypocritical in their selective allegiance to the director=92s artistic intentions. My feeling is that different people have different levels of sensitivity, and that we shouldn=92t be so condescending as to say =93you NEED to see this sex or violence or else you can=92t see the movie at all.=94 If we had a =93effected by sex=94 meter, and showed the same movie to two different people, then certainly the results would be different. I might score a =935,=94 but my teenage brother might be up around =938.=94 Isn=92t that the entire reason for the rating system? Well, it=92s late, and I=92m beginning to see why some members of the list spend so much time here; one gets into the argument and then can=92t leave. But it is rather fun. Perhaps I=92ll contribute more often. John - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] KSL and the Church Date: 27 Jul 2001 07:36:00 -0600 Thom Duncan writes: [...] >KSL didn't edit out the nude scenes. Right, and I was arguing that KSL didn't have the freedom and/or ability to edit out the nude scenes. Does anyone have evidence to the contrary (i.e., evidence that they did have both the freedom and the ability to do so)? If not, inferences based on KSL's failure to exercise freedom and/or ability that they did not have seem unwarranted to me. [...] >Columnists don't represent the paper as a whole, and >therefore not the Church, but rather their own opinions. KSL and the _Deseret News_ are each only a part of the Church's holdings. Is it really that much more significant when the whole of a part does something than when a part of a part does? If so, how about BYU's actions in regard to _Schindler's List_? Were those actions less reflective of the Church's position than KSL's? If so, why? Chris Grant - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 27 Jul 2001 10:40:21 -0600 >I saw the Utah County "Clean Flicks" version. No sex at all in the movie. >Quite a number of bleeped words. A great story about materistic versus >personal values. You didn't miss anything by missing the sex scene. And I don't think it's a matter of being more sensitive to visual images than literary images. I would have been just as offended at a book that was as graphic as that movie was. Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Reid Subject: RE: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 27 Jul 2001 12:01:07 -0700 For the past eight months or so, my sister and I have been co-writing a novel. It started out as a suspense story about some women in Southern Illinois who run an Underground Railroad that "moves" abused women from one area of the country to another. The suspense part was that someone in the Underground was killing some of the women. We sent the first hundred pages to our agent in New York and she was pretty excited about it. And we proceeded to tell the story - but as we continued, we really didn't like the direction of the novel. The characters, the motivation, the plot was taking us to a real seamy side of life and we felt that we would be exploiting abused women even more if we continued. So - we stopped. Now we get to explain to our agent that we'll be working on something else and getting it to her real soon.:) My sister is not LDS. She has written excellent suspense novels with strong female characters. I've always been her editor - but this time we wanted to see what we could do together. And actually, the writing was great, the scenes were realistic and as we read what we created, we became more and more uncomfortable. Which then lead me to my original question - about the Mission of Mormon Letters. Just because we can - should we? (A twist on Terry's response.) And perhaps it goes back to Shakespeare's Hamlet - Polonius, "To thine own self be true." Terri Terri Reid Executive Producer - Midwest Region PIXELight www.itpnow.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Upcoming Mormon Events: Kent Larsen 26Jul01 E4 Date: 08 Jul 2001 14:14:26 -0400 [MOD: This is a rather long post, and some of the items are clearly not within AML-List's purview--but others clearly are. What do you all think? Is it worth making long events-postings like this to AML-List (space permitting), or should we try to limit our space to more arts-oriented announcements? Do you feel you get value out of this?] Upcoming Mormon Events Events during the next two weeks involving Mormons, Mormonism or the LDS Church [Regions given are nearest metropolitan area. Time zones include hours from GMT] Church Lectures, Symposia and Workshops Music - Classical BYU Touring Groups Music - Popular Books Museums and Art Theater and Film LDS Singles and Youth Miscellaneous Date Region Description and Details CHURCH 25Jul US CA SanF Oakland Temple Pageant thru 28Jul Oakland CA 800pm PDT(-0700) Oakland Temple Visitors Center 26Jul US UT CDal Castle Valley Pageant thru 28Jul Castle Dale UT 830pm PDT(-0700) Oakland Temple Visitors Center 27Jul US IL Nauv City of Joseph Pageant thru 28Jul Nauvoo IL 31Jul US UT Prov BYU Devotional -- E. Harrison Powley Internet Provo UT 1100am MDT(-0600) BYU deJong Concert Hall [Broadcast locally and at http://broadcasting.byu.edu/devos/ ] 31Jul US UT CDal Castle Valley Pageant thru 4Aug Castle Dale UT 830pm PDT(-0700) Oakland Temple Visitors Center 31Jul US UT Prov BYU Annual Genealogy and Family History Conference thru 3Aug Provo UT BYU Conference Center 31Jul US IL Nauv City of Joseph Pageant thru 4Aug Nauvoo IL 7Aug US UT Prov BYU Devotional -- Mark L. 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State Cont- US UT SLC Mahonri Young: A Song of Joys inuing Provo UT BYU Museum of Art Cont- US UT SLC Minerva Teichert's "Desert Cantos" inuing Provo UT BYU Museum of Art Cont- US UT StG Impressions of a Prophet by Liz Lemon Swindle inuing St George UT St George Tabernacle Thru US UT SLC Pastoral Utah: Landscape Paintings from the Permanent 25Aug Collection Provo UT BYU Museum of Art Thru US ID Poca Four Paintings by Minerva Teichert Fall Rexburg ID John Taylor Religion Building Thru US UT SLC The Living Christ: Images from the Life of Jesus 3Sep Salt Lake City UT Museum of Church History and Art Thru US UT Prov Mormon Moderne: New Directions in Latter-day Saint Architecture 15Sep Provo UT BYU Museum of Art Thru US UT SLC Valiant Pioneer Children, an interactive children's exhibit 14Oct Salt Lake City UT Museum of Church History and Art Thru US UT SLC In the Footsteps of Joseph Smith: Photographs of Early Church 14Oct Historic Sites, 1805-1846 Salt Lake City UT Museum of Church History and Art Thru US UT SLC Mormon canes and walking sticks 11Nov Salt Lake City UT Museum of Church History and Art Thru US UT SLC World Views: Latter-day Saints Artists Look at Life 17Mar02 Salt Lake City UT Museum of Church History and Art THEATER & FILM Every Internet Music and the Spoken Word Sunday Cable 700 am, 930am, 300pm MDT(-0600) BYU-TV Thru US UT SLC Saturday's Voyeur 2001 26Aug Salt Lake City UT 730pm MDT(-0600) Salt Lake Acting Company, 168 W. 500 North Wed & Thur 730pm Fri & Sat 800pm Sun 200pm & 700pm LDS SINGLES AND YOUTH 1stFri US CA LA Rock Dance Every Month Valencia CA 900pm PDT(-0700) 24915 Peachland Ave. 1stSat US CA LA Discovery Series & Dance Every Month Fountain Valley CA 700pm PDT(-0700) 17500 Bushard (at Slater) 1stSat US CA LA Rock and Country Western Dance Every Month San Bernardino CA 830pm PDT(-0700) 3860 Waterman Ave 2ndFri US CA LA Single Adult Gospel Study Group, Every Month Long Beach CA 730pm PDT(-0700) Cal State Long Beach Institute of Religion 2ndFri US CA LA Rock Dance Cancelled for March! Every Month Covina CA 900pm PDT(-0700) La Verne Stake, at the Charter Oak building 2ndFri US CA SD The San Diego Singles Dance Every Month San Diego CA 900pm PDT(-0700) San Diego Stake Center 2ndSat US CA LA Rock Dance Every Month Brea CA 900pm PDT(-0700) 151 N. Poplar Ave 3rdFri US CA LA Dance Instruction / Variety Dance Every Month Thousand Oaks CA 830pm PDT(-0700) 3645 Moorpark Rd., 3rdFri US CA LA Rock Dance Every Month Irvine CA 900pm PDT (-0700) Irvine stake center 3rdSat US CA SD Singles 31+ Social / Luncheon Every Month Long Beach CA 100pm PDT (-0700) Long Beach East Stake 3rdSat US CA LA Dance Lesson & Dance Every Month South Pasadena CA 830pm PDT (-0700) South Pasadena Ward building 4thSat US CA LA Rock/Variety Dance Every Month Buena Park CA 830pm PDT (-0700) 7600 Crescent Ave 23Jul US UT Prov Especially for Youth -- BYU 8 Thru 28Jul Provo UT BYU 23Jul US ID Poca Especially for Youth -- BYU Idaho 6 Thru 28Jul Rexburg ID Ricks College 23Jul US AZ Flag Especially for Youth -- Arizona 2 Thru 28Jul Flagstaff AZ Northern Arizona University 23Jul US NV LV Especially for Youth -- Nevada Thru 28Jul Las Vegas NV UNLV 23Jul US UT Logn Especially for Youth -- Logan 1 Thru 28Jul Logan UT Utah State University 23Jul US NY Genv Especially for Youth -- New York 1 Thru 28Jul Geneva NY Hobart & William Smith Colleges 23Jul US CA SanD Especially for Youth -- California- San Diego 1 Thru 28Jul San Diego CA San Diego State University 27Jul US LA BatR Single Adult Conference to 29Jul Baton Rouge LA Baton Rouge Stake Center 30Jul US VA Rich Especially for Youth -- Virginia 6 Thru 4Aug Buena Vista VA Southern Virginia College 30Jul US UT Logn Especially for Youth -- Logan 2 Thru 4Aug Logan UT Utah State University 30Jul US CA SanD Especially for Youth -- California- San Diego 2 Thru 4Aug San Diego CA San Diego State University 30Jul US UT StG Especially for Youth -- Cedar City Thru 4Aug Cedar City UT Southern Utah University 30Jul US CA SanJ Especially for Youth -- California Thru 4Aug Rohert Park CA Sonoma State University 30Jul US TX Dent Especially for Youth -- Texas Thru 4Aug Denton TX Texas Women's University 6Aug US UT Prov Especially for Youth -- BYU 9 Thru 11Aug Provo UT BYU 6Aug US ID Poca Especially for Youth -- BYU Idaho 7 Thru 11Aug Rexburg ID Ricks College 6Aug US CA StaB Especially for Youth -- California- Santa Barbara Thru 11Aug Santa Barbara CA University of California Santa Barbara 10Aug US GA Atl Atlanta Regional Single Adult Conference Thru 12Aug Atlanta GA Crowne Plaza Hotel 11Aug CA AB Leth Corn Bust, Single Adults Taber AB MISCELLANEOUS 13Jul US CA LA BYU Molecular Genealogy Project Data Collection to 28Jul Orange CA Orange County Fair 31Jul US UT Prov BYU Molecular Genealogy Project Data Collection to 3Aug Provo UT BYU Genealogy Conference 11Aug US NV LasV 14th Annual LDS Summer Splash Las Vegas NV Wet & Wild water park >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] Jennie HANSEN, _The River Path_ (Review) Date: 26 Jul 2001 20:50:24 -0700 Review ====== Jennie Hansen, "The River Path" 2000, Covenant Communications Paperback, 240 pages, $13.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle "The River Path" is Hansen's eighth work of fiction for the LDS market. Reading the blurb on the back cover does not do justice to the book's complex and intriguing plot. When Matt Bingham, a cradle Mormon, chose to marry Dana Dalby, a recent convert, neither set of parents could make sense of the situation. When Dana joined the Church, her parents completely disowned her. Matt's parents, solid Latter-day Saints, had wished their son Matt would have married a woman more mature in the faith, better able to raise their children in the Gospel. A strong sense of tension -- Dana's alienation from her parents because of her decision to become a Mormon, Matt's family because of his choice of a wife -- dominates the early part of the book and creates a tension so thick you'd need a knife to cut through it. In the case of Matt's family, he, his brothers and his father work together in a construction business, and the family remains close despite their doubts about Dana. Matt and Dana's son, Joshua, becomes ill will a disease that will require a bone marrow transplant if he is to have any chance of surviving. The best bet would be a close family member, but none of the tests on Matt's family yield a close enough match. It remains for Dana's family to rescue the child from certain death -- the family that disowned their daughter and refuses to talk with her. Matt's mother travels to California to try to convince a family member to be tested, and there sees a work of art produced by Dana reflecting her understanding of Lehi's dream of the Tree of Life. Dana had told the family of her family's total distancing of themselves from her, but no one is prepared for either the depraved condition of her father or the shocking selfishness of her mother. The title, "The River Path," comes from the painting just mentioned. In this painting, Matt's mother sees deeply into the soul of her daughter-in-law, an awakening that will affect not just her view of Dana, but also of herself and her own narrow way of thinking. A secondary plot emerges as the family business is attacked by an unknown assailant, out to bring the business down. There are plenty of suspects; it only lacks plenty of clues. Each of the major characters finds his or her way along "The River Path," coming to terms with their shortcomings, renewing their commitment to family and to the Gospel. This book is very well written. Characterizations are crisp and realistic, from the evil Mr. Dalby to the delightfully daffy Home Teacher who visits Dana as she keeps watch over her son in the hospital. Just when you think you have it all figured out, Hansen throws in a plot twist that sends you back to square one. In the end, the pieces come together in a satisfying way. There are some points of discontinuity that are puzzling. One that comes to mind involves Matt's decision to purchase cell phones for himself and for Dana. Having delivered the phone to her, she soon finds herself needing to make a call. She runs to a phone booth, finds it busy, and goes looking for another one. No explanation is given as to why she couldn't just use her cell phone. Another instance -- reference is made to a cave-in at a construction site, a query as to whether the cause had been determined. I may have missed it, but I didn't find any reference to a cave-in prior to this question being asked. Again, I may have just missed it. "The River Path" is a fine example of what Mormon fiction, addressed to a wide audience, can be. It avoids being preachy, but manages to teach solid values. Without being overly-melodramatic, Hansen delivers well-written scenes of intimacy and hungry love. I liked this book very much. I have in my stack her next book, and look forward to diving into it. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: [AML] re: Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 27 Jul 2001 14:16:14 -0600 Something about this list is disturbing. I really like knowing there = are other people out there--somewhere--who are like me. I really like = everyone's opinions, but it bothers me to read that there should be a = "mission" to my writing. I already went on a mission. I've got kids = now. Now is the time to be happy. Anything beyond "have a good time" = is going to lead to preachiness, which was the downfall of Mormon = literature of the 70's. Be happy! Learn to love something. Write in a = way that will cause you to be happy. Even if the subject matter is dark = or disturbing if you love something happiness will come from it. (At = least, that;s what I tell myself.) Maybe that is a "mission" of sorts. Paris Anderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "???n ??e" Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 27 Jul 2001 15:17:34 -0700 John Williams brings up an interesting point, which leads me to a question. I agree that there is a difference between vividly portrayed sex in film and vividly portrayed sex in literature, and that literature is a safer place for it. In modern times, however, a very popular novel will likely result in a popular film, and the sex scenes in the novel will end up in the film. I haven't seen _Jerry Maguire_, and I have no plans to see it. Another film with a very graphic, if distant sex scene that I did see was _The Name of the Rose_ from the novel by Umberto Eco. I did not read the novel, but have to believe that the scene in the movie must have come from the book, given the importance of the scene to the title. It would reveal a bit of conceit to write a novel with a movie sale in mind, I suppose, but if novels are the safe place for sex and movies are not, wouldn't a Mormon author want to bear in mind that whatever sex he puts into a novel may end up graphically portrayed in a film? This is an important question to me as I write about sexually-charged topics in my novel doing my best to avoid vivid portrayals. I can succeed in the written word, but if anyone were to make a movie out of it, I'd feel like a pornographer. I'm not even counting on being published much less making a movie sale, but I have decisions to make. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN News Briefs: Kent Larsen Date: 08 Jul 2001 18:48:19 -0400 News Briefs In the News Today: Ryan Shupe and Rubberband Record 'Live' CD: BYU NewsNet 25Jul01 A2 Ryan Shupe and Rubberband Record 'Live' CD PROVO, UTAH -- The LDS bluegrass band Ryan Shupe and the Rubber Band released a new live album June first titled "Live" which is only available at their concerts. The band, which was called the "Dave Matthews Band gone bluegrass" by MTV.com, has changed somewhat since its previous album, with the addition of Bart Olson on drums and Jeremy Nielsen on bass. Its new CD draws on previously unreleased material, recorded at two sold-out shows February 2-3 at the Junction Theater in Ogden, including a nine-minute version of "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" and a version of "Rainbow Connection" that leads into "Banjo Boy." The group sold over 16,000 copies of their first two albums, and also appeared in the film "God's Army" performing "Go To Hell." Band records "Live" sound on CD BYU NewsNet 25Jul01 A2 http://newsnet.byu.edu/index.cfm?story=32081 By Jared Johnson: NewsNet Staff Writer >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] LaBute Quoted in Maureen Dowd's Column Date: 27 Jul 2001 16:02:19 -0700 (PDT) The highly amusing "New York Times" columnist Maureen Dowd wonders, in this summer of Gary Condit, if all men are dogs and talks to BYU alum Neil LaBute about it. Here are the relevant quotes and a link to the entire article: > > I called the men-are-dogs maestro, Neil LaBute, who > has done two > movies and a recent New Yorker short story exploring > the subject. I > told him about the new HBO series and asked the > director, who's in > London shooting a movie of the novel "Possession," > if men and women > have stopped evolving. Are these stale stereotypes > of married men, > pining all day for office assistants and interns and > shopgirls and > computer girls and redheads who walk by in airports, > true? > > Men, he replies, are "the gender I would trust > second. If > scientists stumble onto a third gender, there's > definitely a chance > of slippage" by women away from men. > > He acknowledged that men are drawn to the > "unknowability" of new > conquests, even if it's just in fantasy. > "Undeniably, we've gotten > to a place where we're more aware of how each gender > operates," he > says. "But I sense that it's like some kind of > animal that's been > caught and trained. There's still that sort of > feeling when one > hears that cry of the pack, going to the edge of the > fence and > looking out and thinking: `Those were the great > days. What > happened? Where did it all go wrong?' " > > The man in his New Yorker story is humiliated by a > girl he flirts > with in the airport when she discovers he's there > with his wife and > kids. But the embarrassment is no match for the > beast. As the girl > walks away from the family, Mr. LaBute writes, the > man thinks to > himself: " `She wants me. She wants me. I know > she wants > me.' " > > It's that simple. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/25/opinion/25DOWD.html?ex=997198656&ei=1&en=ae98237c179fd149 > ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] GAs in Church Pubs Date: 27 Jul 2001 22:40:13 -0700 (July 27, 01) I was on vacation and I foolishly took my computer with me thinking I might be able to use it at my sister-in-law's house, and when I plugged it in over at her son's furniture store I got Data Error Reading Drive C. Finally got back into Widoze (precursor to Orfanz), but Juno wouldn't recognize my modem though I could read old unread mail in my inbox, so I reinstalled Juno, and it still wouldn't, so I finally reinstalled the Wind'sEye #98. Found this message while I was rummaging through old stuff and wrote the following, which languished in my drafts folder until I got Juno to recognize my modem today. On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:47:49 -0500 James Picht writes: > Thom Duncan wrote: > > > My cynical opinion would be, yes, [GAs] would get published even > > if their fiction was dreadful. Does anyone really think, for instance, > > that "I Believe in Christ" would have ever seen the inside of the > > LDS hymnbook if it hadn't been written by Bruce R. McConkie? > The hymnbook is a somewhat different beast. Every ward buys them, > whether they contain hymns by McConkie or not, and McConkie's > hymn inclusion seems almost an example of vanity-press printing > rather than the market-driven acceptance his SF trilogy would > have received (had he ever finished it). It's actually a way for the Church to emphasize the importance of writing poetry. My father spent a couple of hour talking with Robert Cundick, long-time Tablenicker organist and my cousin Lori's father-in-law, and came away convinced that the most important pomes we can write are hymns, pomes of praise. I've always thought Bro. Cundick must have had the same conversation with the 12, seeing how many GAs wrote hymns for the 1985 hymn book. If creative work is so important that even Church leaders are asked to create work, maybe we should follow their example. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Bestsellers: Kirn's "Up in the Air" Makes Lists: Kent Larsen 27Jul01 US NY NYC A4 Date: 28 Jul 2001 00:59:00 -0400 Bestsellers: Kirn's "Up in the Air" Makes Lists NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- After a month-long hiatus for logistical reasons, Mormon News' bestseller lists have returned to find that former LDS Church member Walter Kirn's most recent book, "Up in the Air" has just appeared on several major bestseller lists. The book is a satiric look at modern business culture. Meanwhile, on the LDS Bestseller list, titles don't seem to have shifted much. Kathleen H. Barnes and Virginia H. Pearce's "Prayer Time" board book has jumped onto the list in the 4th spot while Beneath the Surface by Jeni Grossman and Hearts in Hiding by Betsy Brannon Green have also joined the list. Of course, bestseller lists don't usually have many changes during the summer, which is a slow time for bookstores, as they await the arrival of new titles for the fall season. In the LDS market, booksellers will only find out about the new titles at next month's LDS Booksellers convention. The current titles on US National bestseller lists are: Up in the Air, by Walter Kirn Satiric novel about a man's attempt to accumulate 1 million frequent flier miles, working in the airborne world he claims to inhabit, Airworld. The man, a management consultant who fires people for a living, embarks on his final trip to accumulate the millionth mile, only to find himself faced with an evil nemesis and discover that someone has stolen his identity, assuming control of his credit cards and, of course, his frequent flier miles. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 2 - Amazon.com (July 27) Fiction Hardcover 32 - New York Times (July 27) Fiction Hardcover 11 - Wordsworth Independent (July 24) Fiction Hardcover The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen R. Covey This ten-year-old personal management classic is still selling strongly. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 25 - Amazon.com (July 27) Non-Fiction Paperback 65 - Barnes & Noble Top (July 27) Top 100 7 - New York Times (July 8) Paperback Business 150 - USA Today (July 27) 5 - Wall Street Journal (July 20) Business Bestsellers in LDS Bookstores: This Last Title 1 - The First 100 Temples by Chad S. Hawkins Deseret Book 2 - Standing for Something: 10 Neglected Virtues That Will Heal Our Hearts and Homes by Gordon B. Hinckley Three Rivers Pr 3 - Expressions of Faith by Greg Olsen Deseret Book 4 - Prayer Time by Kathleen H. Barnes and Virginia H. Pearce; Illustrated by Dilleen Marsh Deseret Book 5 - Beneath the Surface by Jeni Grossman Covenant Communications 6 - The Book of Mormon for Latter-day Saint Families by Thomas R. Valletta Deseret Book 7 - Missionary Reference Library Set Deseret Book 8 - Hearts in Hiding by Betsy Brannon Green Covenant Communications 9* - Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley by Gordon Bitner Hinckley Deseret Book 9* - The Promise of Discipleship by Neal A. Maxwell Deseret Book 11 - The Message by Lance Richardson American Family Publishing/Origin Book Sales 12 - Children's Songbook Words and Music (CD) Church Distribution 13* - Women of Destiny (CD) Deseret Book 13* - A Quiet Heart by Patricia T. Holland Deseret Book 15 - The Kingdom and the Crown by Gerald N. Lund Shadow Mountain * Indicates tie LDS Books rankings reflect sales rankings at approximately 50 LDS bookstores, generally in the Western United States. Mormon News is actively seeking to expand both the quality of these rankings and the number of stores participating. Bookstores and other vendors of LDS books are urged to contact Mormon News at editor@mormonstoday.com to participate. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN Upcoming Mormon Events: Kent Larsen 26Jul01 E4 Date: 28 Jul 2001 02:18:30 -0400 To the list: (this is about that really long post about upcoming Mormon events) Glad there was finally something I felt I could do to contribute to the list and sorry for the way the first few posts came through, that problem is fixed now. I probably could have edited this one down a bit, but I wasn't sure how much freedom I had considering it wasn't mine to begin with. My reasoning on the Church catagory was that pageants are plays, therefore, keepers. I didn't notice the devotional or genealogy conference ones, otherwise, I would have chopped those out. Looking through the Lectures, Symposia and Workshops, I should have chopped alot! Sorry. As for the BYU Touring group.......your call on that. I probably should have deleted the Singles and Youth and Miscellaneous stuff, but thought if it wasn't kosher, Jonathon would have taken it out, so its his fault! As for the value, its nice to see what is going on in the rest of the world (granted that obviously all the interesting stuff is mostly in Utah) and what I am missing out on by living in the mission field. Anyway, as I go along, I am sure I will improve. Can I blame carpal tunnel surgery? Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 28 Jul 2001 10:48:48 -0600 Hey, this is one of the best AML letters I have ever seen! I can't believe it! Somebody is STANDING FOR SOMETHING. Bravo! I commend you! I am so proud of you, Terri. You didn't make money. No money is worth being successful with some of the garbage I see on the national market. I have the same questions as we go through the hundreds of manuscripts we recieve from national writers here at Cedar Fort. What are we going to publish? Of course you need the money, but I would rather STAND FOR SOMETHING. And it wouldn't be exploitation or possible misunderstanding. I'm not saying the seamy side can't be there (it is in the scriptures for what it is--the Bible and the Book of Mormon, etc.). But perhaps it can just be dealt with in a way that only presents it as the opposition, and doesn't give us the details or how-tos until we titillate ourselves. I love this letter and I'm going to keep it. Cheers! Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- > For the past eight months or so, my sister and I have been co-writing a > novel. It started out as a suspense story about some women in Southern > Illinois who run an Underground Railroad that "moves" abused women from one > area of the country to another. [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 28 Jul 2001 11:15:00 -0600 A very astute post, William. I'm so looking forward to your paper on this very subject in March, 2002. I've missed most of this discussion because the list wasn't coming in for two weeks. But I should have read your post and Melissa Profitt's post before I answered Terri. However, the truth remains the same: writers are SO DIFFERENT and what offends one will not offend another. And writers are artists. Of course there were many offended by Michael Angelo's David and the Sistine chapel. It's such a risk to say anything. However, I am reading manuscripts, and there are many that just don't tell a wonderful story, but include bad language and sex that are offensive. It's a judgment call. And I just hope all of us are watchful, like Terri. Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- > This sentiment--that nobody should be saying what > authors should be writing--seems to be fairly > widespread among Mormon writers and critics. I agree > that no one person can command the direction of Mormon > literature, and that the laissez faire approach makes > sense, especially in a culture that has very > discriminating tastes in art (in both the negative and > positive sense), but I think raising the 'should' kind > of questions are important for Mormon artists to > consider on a personal creative level. I'm not > convinced that letting the muse runs its course is > always the best idea---which leads me to the next > section below: [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 28 Jul 2001 11:18:34 -0600 Gae Lyn, I think part of it is political. You trust some work because you know from whence it came (by their fruits ye shall know them). Do you think that may be right? Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- > I saw the Utah County "Clean Flicks" version. No sex at all in the movie. > Quite a number of bleeped words. A great story about materistic versus > personal values. > > I suspect that many AML listers might feel such external cutting defiles the > sacred realm of authorship and artistic vision. Maybe I ought to argue that > myself, after all I'm an English teacher and I just posted something about > the sexuality in Levi Peterson's work being morally valuable. BUT, because > it is Wednesday, and as the mother of six sons, I sometimes put on my > conservative Mormon mother persona and go for the edited version. In fact I > wouldn't have seen it otherwise. > > Now why do I do that? Training and lots of church talks? Am I more afraid > of visual representations of sex than written ones? Do I really think I can > protect my kids in this age of computer-available everything? Do I have a > split personality because of my culture? I love to read Eric Samuelson's > liberatory vision of see no evil in art. Why am I such a wimp about it > myself? Or am I just not (completely) corrupted yet? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] UDALL, _The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint_ (Review) Date: 28 Jul 2001 12:52:15 -0600 Andrew Hall writes: [...] >It all has an Irving feel about it. In a good way. I've only read one book by John Irving: _A Prayer for Owen Meany_. Based on that limited information, I would agree that _Edgar Mint_ definitely has an Irving feel to it, but not just in good ways. Udall is clearly a talented writer who has written a powerful, moving novel, a novel that is filled with vulgar language and that contains explicit description of sexual activity. [...] >Edgar does not dwell on the slights he receives, but we see a >few of them, like the day he is called to stand before a >Sunday School class as a visual example of a cursed race. The teacher doesn't just identify the Lamanites as cursed. When Edgar is in front of the class, the teacher says: "Edgar here, in his own way, is a relic of those Book of Mormon times, . . . Out in the world they might call him an American Indian, but we know better. In truth he is as much a Lamanite as the prophet Samuel or King Lamoni." (Even this episode has sexual references that would violate AML-List guidelines if the full passage from the book were to be quoted here.) [...] >Still, the book certainly could offend a large swath of >Mormon readers with its graphic language (really not that >much, Everything's relative, I guess. In the first couple hundred pages of the book (before Edgar moves in with the Mormon family) there are, on average, every couple of pages words used that I think you still can't use on network television (unless you're Steven Spielberg). [...] >I hope readers can look beyond those things to the abundant >depth and beauty of the story. It is the kind of beauty that >Dostoyevsky talked about, that found in the grungiest of >circumstances. In the early part of the book, one of Edgar's benefactors says: "Lord help us this world is a horrible place." I think that at least the first part of the book makes a strong case that he's right. There is some brightening towards the end, but we are still left with the protagonist saying: "I can see no divine purpose behind the tangle of this existence, no ordering hand. It is all a mystery, or more accurately, a mess." Dostoyevsky is one of my favorite authors, and I do see beauty in the grunginess he portrays. Some of Udall's choices have made it harder for me to see the corresponding beauty in _Edgar Mint_. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruth Starkman Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 28 Jul 2001 23:39:13 -0700 I haven't much to say about the Sex in Literature thread, except that maybe my own preference (also being a mother of sons and probably because of upbringing) is for the less explicit in literature and esp. in film. But I do want to say that it makes very much sense to me that Gae Lyn Hendersen and John Williams would find Levi Petersen's writing morally valuable and potentially possessing equal or more cultural insights than some psychological or social scientific study. Several years back I stumbled across _The Backslider_ and, never having read _any_ LDS lit, I decided to read it in hope it might give me insight into Utah culture when I was preparing to teach at the U. It didn't take me very long to figure out it wasn't mainstream Mormon-readership stuff, but I thought it would be unfortunate if many people shied away from it for this reason. For me, the novel was moving, wonderfully written, and did tell me a lot about the meaning of temptation and shame for Mormons. I also happen to think it's one of the best American novels written in the last 20 years. This said, I'm sad to hear of Alan Mitchell's allergic response. I mean, isn't there room for both ends of the spectrum? --Ruth Starkman (PS Welcome John Williams and good luck on your doc at Irvine!) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 28 Jul 2001 14:03:51 -0600 Terry L Jeffress wrote: >I don't think any of these "Should we?" questions really help us >define the true and correct directions of Mormon literature, mainly >because Mormon literature doesn't really have a true and correct >direction as a whole, on a true and correct direction for individual >authors and readers. While I actually agree with your fundamental premise, I have to comment on one possible interpretation of your comment. I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone else what a Mormon "ought" to write in the sense of telling them that this subject is fit and that subject is not, or that this detail is authentically Mormon where that one is not. But I do think we have a right (and a responsibility) to be careful readers and critics and to ask why certain kinds of stories are not being told, or why there seems to be an over-representation of another kind of story. We have a right to challenge both the authors and the publishers of LDS fiction to do more or different than they currently are, and to lodge both our approving and disapproving comments on what is currently being published. This is the essential dialog that literature creates between author and reader--a dialog that has largely been appropriated by Academia. Many authors want to shut that dialog down to a single direction--the author may pontificate to the reader and criticize anything he wants, but if the reader responds with criticism of their work or its apparent messages, then some horrible moral evil has occurred and the poor hapless author is being censored. But censoring the reader's thoughts is somehow okay. I'm not convinced that literature works under such a model. Many of our great books are comments by one author on things that another author had to say. In other words, dialog. Some of those responses have been vehement, vitriolic condemnations. Most of our major literary movements were an attempt by one group of people to comment on the failures or excesses of another group. So while I absolutely agree that it's neither useful nor right to try to establish some monolithic definition of what elements *THE* one and true orthodox Mormon story is composed of, I don't think there's anything at all wrong with readers expressing their opinions about how or why a story worked for them, or how and why it didn't. And I believe authors need to get a slightly thicker skin about those who would judge them unrighteously, because we will never escape such judgements in this life. Oddly, it seems that many Mormon authors can dish it out, but they can't take it. >Although this sounds like the broken record (skipping CD?) of writing >advice, you write what feels right to you for the story you want to >tell. I don't think that we should set out to write stories that have >real Mormons as characters unless that character makes sense in your >story. Couldn't agree more. We have to tell the stories that interest and engage us. At the same time, we also need to be willing to stretch and reach and take chances to tell *all* of the stories that interest us, not just the easy ones or the ones with more clearly identifiable market segments or target demographics. Many Mormons that have failed to tell Mormon stories could rise to the challenge of telling strongly Mormon stories that use their considerable talents to build a more powerful home literature. To date, I have failed to be engaged by the majority of Mormon novels that I've read, but recently I've been privileged to see more and more stories that do engage me. I think J. Scott Bronson's novel _The Whipping Boy_ is both a great Mormon story and a just plain great story of what it means to be a real person seeking to be like Christ. I believe that Mormons should read this powerful book, and I'm in the process of seeing what I can do to facilitate that. I've seen other books that I think stretch and expand our concept of what it is to be human and Mormon, and what it means to reconcile those two things. We are starting to publish--within the mainstream Mormon press--stories that sometimes look critically at our own racial history or that showcase non-standard visions of what it means to be Mormon. We need to do more of that. We need to unafraid of criticizing our culture or our assumptions or our conventions. But... We also need to be unafraid of telling stories that recognize the powerful truths and potential contained within our culture or assumptions or conventions. We need to be equally unafraid to praise that which is praiseworthy within our communities and our churches. We need to be willing to tell the stories of how our faith or community has sustained us, not just how they have failed us. We need to be willing to take a chance and reveal our own personal views of what it means to be Mormon and to strive and to hope--and sometimes to fail, but at other times to succeed. We need to constantly re-examine ourselves and learn to tell more and different stories that we tell now--including stories of our own culture. Mormons need to tell true stories that engage us as people. If your vision is to tell stories of non-denominational people, then tell those stories. But I would also like to see more of us tell stories of what it's like to be ourselves, as both people and Mormons. Does that mean that I think all Mormon authors *should* tell explicitly Mormon stories? No. But I would like Mormon authors to consider telling stories of ourselves. I would like them to think about Mormonness as a legitimate area of concern and exploration and to give it another chance as an area where they can tell real and powerful stories. I would like them to take a chance and actively expand their own concepts of what kinds of stories they want to write. I'd just like to see more Mormons consider Mormon stories as a legitimate outlet for their creative energies. Not a demand, but a desire. Because I believe that the talent exists right now to tell the most powerful stories of Mormonness and humanity that the world has ever seen--if only our talented people will consider telling stories of Mormons as well as stories of others. I believe that Mormon people are ready for another kind of literature, and that the Mormon market will soon provide sufficient rewards to make telling Mormon stories more than just a labor of love. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KGrant100@aol.com Subject: [AML] Re: Sex in Literature Date: 29 Jul 2001 12:29:29 EDT In a message dated 7/27/2001 1:07:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: > > I must disagree strenuously. First of all, that wasn't just > > "explicit," it was practically pornography. > > There were plenty of other things that serve as a baseline > > for Jerry's character and even if you really really > > wanted to show his great resignation during sex there was > > no real need to get that > > graphic. It took me out of the story completely. > > > > Marianne Hales Harding Since I saw the cleaned-up version (I was still living in Utah at the time) and never saw the bedroom scene, I have to agree: there were plenty of other indications of Jerry's resignation or unwillingness to open his heart. Several come immediately to mind: the scene when his wife is watching video of the wedding, and also the scene where Jerry and his wife were out to dinner with the character played by Cuba Gooding, and his wife--the contrast between the two couples' relationships was poignant and telling. One reason I liked the movie so much was it illustrated how a relationship can be drained of vitality when one of the partners closes his or her heart, and how the relationship becomes alive again when those walls come down. IMHO, a graphic bedroom scene would have obscured rather than enhanced that insight. Kathy Grant - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Irreantum2@cs.com Subject: [AML] Angels Among Us Series Date: 29 Jul 2001 21:34:47 EDT [MOD: Thanks to Chris Bigelow for forwarding this announcement to the List.] Announcing Angels Among Us You are invited to get involved with a new book series scheduled to begin in= 2003: Angels Among Us. The AAU series is a series of life stories about the= real people in our communities who continually change others' lives for the= better. They are those like the people who, 100 years ago, our great-grandp= arents were taught to venerate: the heroes in our communities who all too of= ten today go unnoticed, overshadowed by today's superstar worship. Enders' F= amily Publishing is conducting a search for writers interested in penning th= ese true heroes' stories, putting into the limelight, finally, those who sho= uld never have been crowded from it. We need people to write about people. You need only two attributes in order to qualify to be an AAU author: 1) kno= wledge of someone whose life story should be pedestalized as an example to o= thers, and 2) the desire to write their story. If you think you may be interested in writing one of these true life stories= , please visit the EFP web site and learn how you can get involved. http://www.endersfamily.com The EFP web site includes as much of the information that will interest you=20= as we could think to include. The Authors and Agents section discusses submi= ssion guidelines as well as contract and copyright issues. The FAQ provides=20= answers to the questions most writers are bound to ask after reading through= the Authors and Agents section. You can also learn almost anything you migh= t want to know about EFP through other portions of the web site. Notice: The email list used for this announcement was generated via a web site searc= h using the keywords write, writer, writers, writing, author, authors, and a= uthoring. EFP generated this email list to target a specific audience and th= e list will be discarded following this one use. This list will not be sold=20= or shared with anyone for any reason prior to being erased from our files: w= e value your privacy. This is the first time we've used this technology. We're hoping that targeti= ng only those active enough in this industry to be found using such a specif= ic search method will pre-filter the enormous number of responses normally g= ained through traditional advertising methods. Best wishes, Dave Enders Owner, Enders' Family Publishing - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: [AML] Editing Literature (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 30 Jul 2001 11:24:48 -0600 On Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 12:10:09AM -0600, rwilliams wrote: > And, as a Graduate Instructor at USU having graded several papers on > the subject of "external cutting defil[ing] the sacred realm of > authorship and artistic vision," I have to say that logically there > isn=92t any substance to this argument. Take, for example, the > brouhaha about editing Titanic or any of the R rated movies in Utah > County. The "artistic integrity" argument goes something like this: > The director created the film with a specific logical sequence in > mind, and to interrupt or skip over these scenes, thus catering to > the "less mature" audience, would be to disrupt the artistic > wholeness of the film. Okay, great. But the same logic implies two > very overlooked arguments: To me the artistic integrity argument takes on a very different tone when you apply the same editing techniques to a book. Say I want my kids to read _Catcher in the Rye_ but without all those nasty words. So I take my copy of _Catcher_ to my local book doctor, who for a fee will use a razor blade to cut out all the objectionable words and scenes. How vile to treat a book in such a way. I cannot stand to see a book mutilated. When I get a book out of the library, I flip through all the pages and set all the bent corners straight. You people who bend the pages instead of using a bookmark make me sick. Heck, I can barely stand to write in a book. I even have two sets of scriptures. The expensive leather bound edition just for reading and the cheap simulated leather covered edition in which I can make marks so I can simulate the proper image of the well-read Elders Quorum instructor. When I apply my distaste of book mutilation to the practice of modifying films for the taste of the reader, I get the same bad taste in my mouth. I know many people who freely admit to skipping over boring sections of books -- they flip past a few pages until they get past the "council of war" scene and get back to the real action. Why not use the remote control and just skip over the objectionable scene -- or wait until the movie comes out on network television. =20 Heck, if you find the scene that objectionable, then don't buy the film in the first place. Even if you edit out the scene, you still know the scene existis. When you talk about the movie with your friends, they will all assume that you have seen the nude scene -- unless you go out of your way to make a discraimer about owning an edited version. (Besides, you paid for the scene anyway. Hollywood will never know that you object to the nude scene. The producer will just chalk up one more sale and keep making the same type of movies. If you really object to such films, then you should boycott those things you find objectionable. I don't own the film in question, but not because of the nude scene -- the film bored me to distraction.) I agree that visual images have a different mental staying power over the printed word, but to me that just means that we have to practice some extra vigilance when selecting our visual versus our verbal entertainment. Somehow it seems to me a sort of capitulation to view an edited version of a film. If you really object to the content of a movie, then you probably shouldn't watch it at all. Again, the producers still see you cash, and have no way to tell that your money paid for a diffrerent verison of the film. You end up tacitly supporting the film instead. (I guess all the people who paid to have objectional scenes edited out of video tapes could have sent the bits of tape back to the producers with a note.) But tape editing only provides a short-term solution. Within a few years, you will only find DVDs on the shelves. And a few more years after that, theaters will have digital projectors that no longer use easily editable films. How will you then edit out the scenes? Pay someone to burn a new DVD one for you? The only successful long-term solution -- for any medium -- becomes personal integrity. What will we as individuals allow into our minds? And because each individual must set a personal limit, then we really cannot draw any line in the sand over which no one else should cross. (With the one exception of our minor children, for whom we set the limits until they have learned their to set their own.) --=20 Terry L Jeffress | The first thing an unpublished author | should remember is that no one asked him | to write in the first place. With this | firmly in mind, he has no right to | become discouraged just because other | people are being published. | -- John Farrar - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Jennie HANSEN, _The River Path_ (Review) Date: 30 Jul 2001 12:00:10 -0600 At 08:50 PM 7/26/01 -0700, you wrote: >There are some points of discontinuity that are puzzling. One >that comes to mind involves Matt's decision to purchase cell >phones for himself and for Dana. Having delivered the phone to >her, she soon finds herself needing to make a call. She runs to >a phone booth, finds it busy, and goes looking for another one. >No explanation is given as to why she couldn't just use her cell >phone. Maybe the character is like me. I got a cell phone recently, but I keep forgetting about it. I forget to charge it, or I leave it at home. Maybe she did the same. (I think I do it because I know the reason my son encouraged me to get it is so he can find me when he wants a free babysitter.) barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 30 Jul 2001 11:31:13 -0700 ???n ??e wrote: > John Williams brings up an interesting point, which leads me to a question. > > I agree that there is a difference between vividly portrayed sex in film and > vividly portrayed sex in literature, and that literature is a safer place > for it. > > In modern times, however, a very popular novel will likely result in a > popular film, and the sex scenes in the novel will end up in the film. One wonderful exceptionis Jaws. In the book, the sleazy affair between the Richard Dryfuss character and the Sheriff's wife was deleting, to the betterment of the film. It should have been deleted from the book. If ever a plot line smelled of padding, this was it. I counted the pages from the time the affair stopped to the time the Jaws plot returned - 100 pages of useless deversion. The Reader's Digest version also toned down the sex scenes, improving greatly on the book. > I haven't seen _Jerry Maguire_, and I have no plans to see it. Another film > with a very graphic, if distant sex scene that I did see was _The Name of > the Rose_ from the novel by Umberto Eco. I did not read the novel, but have > to believe that the scene in the movie must have come from the book, given > the importance of the scene to the title. What I found unrealsitic about that sex scene is that the woman was way too good looking, given the times, the hygiene practices of the day, and the and the state of denstistry. > It would reveal a bit of conceit to write a novel with a movie sale in mind, > I suppose, but if novels are the safe place for sex and movies are not, > wouldn't a Mormon author want to bear in mind that whatever sex he puts into > a novel may end up graphically portrayed in a film? Yes, given that the director is usually the last word on how to do a scene. I've read the original script of the film American X. It starts off (in the film) with a rather graphic sex scene overheard (but seen by the audience) by the main character's younger brother. The script just has the brother hearing the sounds from the other room. > This is an important question to me as I write about sexually-charged topics > in my novel doing my best to avoid vivid portrayals. I can succeed in the > written word, but if anyone were to make a movie out of it, I'd feel like a > pornographer. I'm not even counting on being published much less making a > movie sale, but I have decisions to make. Serious considerations. Suppose you do get the book published, and it makes a move sale. You, as a new writer, would have NO rights over the final film version. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 30 Jul 2001 13:34:06 -0500 Rex Goode on 7/27/01 wrote: > John Williams brings up an interesting point, which leads me to a question. > > I agree that there is a difference between vividly portrayed sex in film and > vividly portrayed sex in literature, and that literature is a safer place > for it. > > In modern times, however, a very popular novel will likely result in a > popular film, and the sex scenes in the novel will end up in the film. > > It would reveal a bit of conceit to write a novel with a movie sale in mind, > I suppose, but if novels are the safe place for sex and movies are not, > wouldn't a Mormon author want to bear in mind that whatever sex he puts into > a novel may end up graphically portrayed in a film? > > This is an important question to me as I write about sexually-charged topics > in my novel doing my best to avoid vivid portrayals. I can succeed in the > written word, but if anyone were to make a movie out of it, I'd feel like a > pornographer. I'm not even counting on being published much less making a > movie sale, but I have decisions to make. > > Rex Goode > A question I have had several times. I am determined to handle it, if given the opportunity, by contractual arrangements with the film company, director and producers. If that cannot be negotiated to my satisfaction then I will have to find the financing and do the movie myself! I know easier said than done! Faith can move mountains, why not an investor or two. I think to a movie made by Mel Gibson "The Man without a Face" where he played the tutor with a background of assumed guilt of abuse of a student who died in a car crash while Gibsons Character was driving. Nothing was done in that movie to titilate nor agravate the situation, though the subject was discussed. I never read the book that movie was based on, I feared it would not come up to the standard of the movie. Some day perhaps. The work Gibson has done since with all the wars, detective stuff, may have thrilled the world, but "The Man without a Face" in my opinion made a strong plea for tolerance, love, stewardship and personal responsibility and without anything that could not be viewed by a 12 year old. It is still my favorite Mel Gibson Movie! Craig Huls - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Reid Subject: RE: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 30 Jul 2001 16:12:07 -0700 Scott said: I'd just like to see more Mormons consider Mormon stories as a legitimate outlet for their creative energies. Not a demand, but a desire. Because I believe that the talent exists right now to tell the most powerful stories of Mormonness and humanity that the world has ever seen-if only our talented people will consider telling stories of Mormons as well as stories of others. I totally agree - we have the talent to share our stories and our talents. I believe that Mormon people are ready for another kind of literature, and that the Mormon market will soon provide sufficient rewards to make telling Mormon stories more than just a labor of love. Okay - in this area, I think we limit ourselves - but perhaps I'm not understanding you. Sure the Mormon people/market might be ready - but why aren't we telling our stories to the whole world? Economically, if you can sell to a national publisher, you'll make more money. But, more than that, if you want to tell powerful stories, why limit their exposure to the folks who already have the whole picture. Sure, it will uplift and rededicate, but how about those brothers and sisters of ours who are lost and have never even seen a glimpse of the joy we have. Paris wrote: . I already went on a mission. I've got kids now. Now is the time to be happy. Anything beyond "have a good time" is going to lead to preachiness, which was the downfall of Mormon literature of the 70's. Be happy! Learn to love something. Write in a way that will cause you to be happy. Even if the subject matter is dark or disturbing if you love something happiness will come from it I disagree with Paris, although I never got the chance to go on a mission, I feel that I'm on a "mission" every day of my life. We live in the Midwest, in a small rural community. Folks here know that my family is LDS and they watch. They know the "writer" who freelances for the paper and who gets involved in community projects is one of those crazy Mormons. They watch my kids and they ask questions. And if this writer, decides to write steamy bodice ripper romances (not that all romances are like that - but there are some) or exploitative sexy murder mysteries - what message does that send about who this writer really is? I can be happy - but only when the choices I'm making are ones that I can be happy with. Marilyn wrote: Somebody is STANDING FOR SOMETHING. First, an aside - did you notice who published "Standing for Something?" Not one of the usually church publishers - but Random House. I have no doubt that he could have published it with any of the LDS publishers - but he chose a national publishing house, I believe, for the exposure. He wanted to touch as many people as he could and not limit his words to the usual LDS crowd. Second, Marilyn - a sincere thank-you for your praise and comments - but I actually feel that perhaps I should have pulled out sooner. Now that I have made my decision, my husband and daughter - who read my story as I wrote it - both feel quite relieved. Hopefully, I've learned a lesson and I won't go there again. Terri Terri Reid Executive Producer - Midwest Region PIXELight www.itpnow.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN "Lady in Waiting" to be performed at Margetts Theatre: BYU Press Release 25Jul01 US UT Prov A2 Date: 30 Jul 2001 17:26:25 -0400 "Lady in Waiting" to be performed at Margetts Theatre PROVO, UTAH -- "Lady in Waiting," an original play by Brigham Young University graduate student Melissa Larson, will be performed in the Margetts Theatre Aug. 1-4 and 7-11 as part of the 2001 Theatre Student Showcase. All shows will begin at 7:30 p.m. Tickets are $10 for the public and $8 for BYU faculty and students. For general information or tickets, call (801) 378-4322. Half-price preview performances will be Aug. 1-2. Directed by Wendy Simmerman and set in Tudor England, the play describes the love story of Meg Wyatt, a lady-in-waiting to Queen Anne Boleyn. Love, friendship and betrayal are the themes of "Lady in Waiting," according to playwright Larson. "In a time when marriage is merely a matter of business, Meg finds herself torn between the possibility of love and one of the few careers a 16th century woman might pursue," said Larson. Based on the play and film "Anne of A Thousand Days," the BYU production focuses on the story of Meg and Sir Anthony Lee. Since little is known about these two historical characters, the playwright was allowed more freedom in their development. "We only know that Meg and Anthony lived and married," Larson said. "'Lady in Waiting' develops their relationship and uses Anne and Henry VIII as examples of what not to do in a relationship." George Boleyn, Anne's brother and the object of Meg's infatuation, is the "romantic ideal." In the beginning of the first act when Meg discovers he is to marry someone else, it destroys her, said Larson. Brokenhearted and terrified of spinsterhood, Meg accepts the company--and eventual proposal--of Anthony Lee. The production parallels the romance of Meg and Anthony to that of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. Henry broke from the Roman Catholic Church to marry Anne, but was disappointed when she failed to bear him a son and heir. Henry VIII is a symbol of male dominance, according to Larson. "We know that he married his third wife only ten days after the execution of his second wife, Anne." The story, although set in 16th century England, has modern applications. "Meg wants to be with Anne to fulfill her duties as a lady-in-waiting while Anthony wants her to be at home. She must make decisions regarding career and marriage," according to Larson. "Lady in Waiting" is an original student work. All aspects of the production, including design and production management, were completed by students. Heidi D. Reed is Meg Wyatt, with Ryan Michael Painter as George Boleyn, Amanda Scheffer as Anne Boleyn, Benjamin Hess as King Henry VIII, Peter Briggs as Sir Anthony Lee, Ryan Flake as William Brereton, Mark Ailshie as Henry Norris and Lucy Nielson as Meredith. Scenic designer for the production is Alisha Paddock, costume designer is Annette Crismon, hair and make-up designer is Jennifer Brass Jenkins, sound designer is Loraleigh Bowyer and lighting designer is Jason Hagey. The production stage manager is Elneeta Timmons, and the production advisor is Loraine Edwards. -###- Source: "Lady in Waiting" to be performed at Margetts Theatre BYU Press Release 25Jul01 US UT Prov A2 http://www.byu.edu/news/releases/Jul/Lady.htm >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN NYC's Whitney Museum Exhibit's Retrospective on Mormon Artist: Kent Larsen 29Jul01 US NY NYC A2 Date: 30 Jul 2001 17:29:36 -0400 NYC's Whitney Museum Exhibit's Retrospective on Mormon Artist NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- One of New York City's most prestigious art museums, the Whitney Museum of Art, opened a major retrospective recently on Wayne Thiebaud, an Arizona native who grew up in a devout Mormon family. Over his career, Thiebaud has become a well-recognized artist whose reputation is ranked among the most important in Modern art and whose work is represented in major art books. The exhibit, titled "Wayne Thiebaud: A Painting Retrospective" originated with the Fine Arts Museum of San Francisco, where it appeared last year at San Francisco's Legion of Honor. The New York City installation has been augmented from the collections of New York Museums and private collections on the East Coast. It is the largest exhibit ever of Thiebaud's work, and the first major exhibit on the East Coast since a 1962 show at Allen Stone's gallery. Thiebaud is best known for his paintings of pies, gumball machines and other representations of everyday life. The choice of pies and gumball machines has sometimes led critics to label Thiebaud's work as pop art -- like that of Andy Warhol and Roy Liechtenstein. And while Thiebaud rejects that label, he is still considered one of the more important Modern artists. Thiebaud was born November 15, 1920 to a devout Mormon family in Mesa, Arizona, but grew up in Southern California and Southern Utah, working at times on family farms. As a teenager his principle activity in the arts was designing sets and lighting for high school productions. But his interest in art picked up after he broke his back playing sports and he used his time while recuperating to take up cartooning. One biographer says that Thiebaud was able to draw Popeye simultaneously with both the left and right hands. With that skill he went to work briefly in the animation department of Walt Disney Studios, but was later fired when he tried to organize a labor union there. In 1942, Thiebaud entered the US Air Force, but ended up painting murals for the Army instead of fighting in World War II, and was discharged in 1945. By 1947 he was gainfully employed as a commercial artist, working for Rexall Drug Company where he created an original comic strip for the company. It wasn't until 1950 that Thiebaud decided to study art seriously. After a year at San Jose State University, he went to study at California State University at Sacramento, from which he graduated in 1953. Along the way he had his first art show, in 1951, at Sacramento's Crocker Art Gallery. Soon after, Thiebaud took the first of several extended trips to New York City, where he met and befriended Modernist painters such as Willem de Kooning and Franz Kline. While de Kooning and Kline had their influence on Thiebaud, he never quite fit in with their abstract expressionist views, instead rejecting their taste for bombast and for grand tragic-historic themes for more modest subjects -- ribbon shops, pinball machines and, eventually, pies. "I had been put off by the churchy feeling of a lot of New York painting, and I saw de Kooning was too," Thiebaud told one interviewer. "He disabused me of it, and, as much as anyone, suggested to me that painting was a lot more important than art." He then looked around for subjects that fit his views, "I'd worked in food preparation. So I'd always seen ... the way they line up food, sort of ritualistically, and I thought, 'Oh, I'll try that.' So I started painting these ovals for the plate and then put a triangle on it. And I mixed up a pumpkin color, maybe, I'd put it on and it was so far away from pumpkin color that I though, 'oh, I've got to put other colors in there." So I added blues and other colors to see if it could enliven it, but then I realized I'd painted this row of pies and started laughing and said, 'well, that's the end of me as a serious artist. Nobody's going to take this seriously.'" But the reaction to Thiebaud's pies was just the opposite. The New York art world loved the pies, just at the time that it discovered Jasper Johns' flags and Warhol's soup cans, leading Thiebaud to be grouped with them as "pop artists." He dislikes that label, however, saying that his work is representational. Instead of making his subjects seem surreal, like Warhol or Johns, Thiebaud instead had a keen sense for seeing the surreal in everyday life -- the "goofy," odd nature of everyday "ritualism." Theibaud returned to California where he soon got a position teaching at Sacramento City College. Ten years later he joined the faculty at the University of California, Davis, where he is still on the faculty as an emeritus professor. His long time residence in California has led some critics to call him a 'California' artist. But when asked by the Sacramento Bee about that label last year, Thiebaud rejected the label, "There are aspects of California in [my] work - the landscape of San Francisco and the Sacramento River. But the food things are not more California than elsewhere." Likewise, given that he has left the LDS Church, Thiebaud would likely say that he is not a Mormon artist. But yet there are aspects of religion and Mormonism in the philosophy he uses in his art; modesty, simplicity and straightforwardness. Last year he told PBS' Newshour with Jim Lehrer that he doesn't really call himself an artist, saying, "Isn't it something for other people to make a decision about? I think it's just like, as I say, it's like a priest referring to himself as a saint. ... It's decided apart from you and that's the way it should be." This modesty also appears in his subject matter, where Thiebaud prefers to work with modest, everyday things, realizing that "even though you're working with everyday things, modest subject matter, that doesn't have to be minor. Those kinds of things, I think, can mean a lot to us." As a result, he sticks with the things he has experience with: teaching, raising a family, having a good life. He looks at the ritual of the everyday, "I don't know what other cultures do, but in America, the preparation and ritual of banquets and ... Mormon picnics are fascinating. Every little American cafe or restaurant or cafeteria always says they have the best hamburger in the world. I don't know how they know that. So they paint these pictures of them with gigantic pieces of meat and lettuce. Big Boy!" Thiebaud also rejects the use of irony in his work, instead preferring to show things in a straightforward way, "I've never trusted irony very much because it's very confusing. You never know where you are. It's like a big Jell-O or marshmallow world. It's hard to get a foothold. ... I don't usually think [paintings that use irony are] very effective." And he feels that simple objects are the subjects he does best, "People ask my why I don't do a nice pretty Viennese cake or spaghetti. I don't know anything about it. I'd have to be Jackson Pollock to do spaghetti." The retrospective of Thiebaud's work has attracted a lot of media attention over the past year, since it first appeared in San Francisco. Major newspapers in San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Washington DC and now New York have covered his work as the exhibit has gone on display in their areas, and the national PBS TV program the Newshour with Jim Lehrer also interviewed him. The exhibit is on display at the Whitney until September 23rd. Sources: Wayne Thiebaud: Wistful Joy in Soda-Fountain Dreams New York Times 29Jun01 A2 http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/29/arts/29KIMM.html By Michael Kimmelman Whitney Show Takes the Cake New York Daily News 28Jun01 A2 http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-06-28/New_York_Now/Culture/a-116435.asp By Celia McGee: Daily News Feature Writer N.Y. embraces Western artist Wayne Thiebaud: The Painter of Pies Knows the Real Thing, Too New York Times 27Jun01 A2 http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/27/living/27THIE.html By Regina Schrambling Wayne Thiebaud: Still Generating Art Rooted in Respect for Painting New York Times 2Jan01 A2 http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/02/arts/02ARTS.html By Stephen Kinzer Gotta Be Me Dallas TX Observer 5Oct00 A2 http://www.dallasobserver.com:80/issues/2000-10-05/arts.html By Christine Biederman Through four decades of masterful painting, Wayne Thiebaud remains true to his vision The Sad and Painful Truth of Thiebaud's Art Suite101.com 1Jul00 A2 http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/artists/42559 By Tricia Dake A Feast for the Eyes PBS Newshour 30Jun00 A2 http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/jan-june00/thiebaud_6-30.html Interview by Elizabeth Farnsworth Thiebaud Retrospective Captures Art's Paradoxes San Francisco Chronicle pgC1 9Jun00 A2 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/06/09 /DD90140.DTL By Kenneth Baker: Chronicle Art Critic Curator turns detective to reel in the years Sacramento CA Bee 4Jun00 A2 http://www.sacbee.com/ourtown/life/thiebaud2.html By Victoria Dalkey: Bee Art Correspondent Thiebaud on Thiebaud Sacramento CA Bee 4Jun00 A2 http://www.sacbee.com/ourtown/life/thiebaud1.html By Victoria Dalkey: Bee Art Correspondent Sacramento's pre-eminent painter, Wayne Thiebaud, talks about his career and a major retrospective of his work Websites: Whitney Museum of Art http://www.whitney.org/ Wayne Thiebaud Sheldon Memorial Art Gallery and Sculpture Garden http://sheldon.unl.edu/HTML/ARTIST?Thiebaud_W/SSI.html Wayne Thiebaud Artcyclopedia http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/thiebaud_wayne.html Wayne Thiebaud http://www.fi.muni.cz/~toms/PopArt/Biographies/thiebaud.html >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 30 Jul 2001 16:14:20 -0600 On Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 02:03:51PM -0600, Scott Parkin wrote: > I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone else what a Mormon > "ought" to write in the sense of telling them that this subject is > fit and that subject is not, or that this detail is authentically > Mormon where that one is not. But I do think we have a right (and a > responsibility) to be careful readers and critics and to ask why > certain kinds of stories are not being told, or why there seems to be > an over-representation of another kind of story. The original question came up as "Should we as writers write A or B?" with the implication that writing about A excludes writing about B and vice versa. If any single author wants to set out to write A, then more power to that person, but I don't think that in general writers should, as a block, decide to exclusively write about B. Each writer should make a determination about the stories, themes, and modes that personally resonate and tell those stories. To me the question limited itself to writers before the act of creation. Once a story finds its way into publication, then readers and critics have the opportunity, if not the duty, to respond. > Many authors want to shut that dialog down to a single direction--the > author may pontificate to the reader and criticize anything he wants, > but if the reader responds with criticism of their work or its > apparent messages, then some horrible moral evil has occurred and the > poor hapless author is being censored. But censoring the reader's > thoughts is somehow okay. And no one likes an elitist crybaby. I don't see this problem much in Mormon letters (yet). But I have seen this phenomenon in "literary" authors who look down their noses at all readers. I have also seen this in the film industry where producers with more money than they could ever use decide they don't need outside input. > I'd just like to see more Mormons consider Mormon stories as a > legitimate outlet for their creative energies. Not a demand, but a > desire. Because I believe that the talent exists right now to tell > the most powerful stories of Mormonness and humanity that the world > has ever seen--if only our talented people will consider telling > stories of Mormons as well as stories of others. A worthy desire, but I think our culture makes the fulfilling of that desire more difficult than in other cultures. We go to a lot of effort to appear sinless. Any literature that peeks into the dark reality of Mormonness must ultimately take on sin and imperfection. Most people don't want to face the fact that these problems exist. We judge people based on their apparent sinlessness. We make assumptions about their worthiness based on the afflictions they must endure. We wonder about the sins of the parents when the child chooses not to serve a mission. I would like to see a literature that shows real Mormons dealing with real life problems, but I think we run an uphill battle with the members that have completely joined the sinless-on-the-surface club. Also, so many of our stories have conversion as the climax, but conversion only tells a tiny fraction of the story. A heck of a lot of enduring goes on between conversion and death. We also must face the fact that our church owns the major book distribution system for our literature. I don't believe that the editorial content of Deseret Book titles could shift very far from its present course. Covenant could probably publish more interesting material, but Covenant has such a strict profit motive, that they probably wouldn't take the chance. That leaves Signature, which has published some challenging titles, but these always seem to have an anti-Mormon theme. We may have the talented people who could tell these stories, but I don't believe that we have a broad-minded enough culture willing and ready to receive these stories. I think we should tell the stories anyway, and allow history to filter out the stories that get retold. -- Terry L Jeffress | The truth is that Simple English is no- | one's mother tongue. It has to be worked | for. -- Jacques Barzun - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN History News Briefs: Kent Larsen Date: 30 Jul 2001 18:55:21 -0400 Humor on the Pioneer Trail SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- A senior librarian at the LDS Church's history library, Melvin L. Bashmore, has collected humorous tales from pioneer diaries over his 26-year career with the library. He has shared those tales with many during the past few years after he put together a collection of the stories titled, "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Utah: Laughable Incidences on the Mormon Trail," for which he received an award for merit from the Utah Humanities Council last year. Utah trek also paved by smiles Deseret News 24Jul01 D6 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,295013016,00.html By Lynn Arave: Deseret News staff writer >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: [AML] The Mark and Mike Show Date: 30 Jul 2001 19:22:10 -0400 We just had a T1 line installed at the office, so lately I've been watching all the streaming video I've been too impatient to watch (or unable to watch) with a 56k modem. Today, I came across the "Mark and Mike" show at zerotv.com, featuring Mark Borchardt and Mike Schank, who were the subjects of the documentary "American Movie" -- one of my favorite films, and quite possibly the best film of 1999. The "Mark and Mike" show is more of the same -- documentary footage of Mark and Mike hanging around and sometimes working: http://www.zerotv.com/shows/archive.cfm?show_id=10 The first five episodes (generally two or three minutes long) are particularly funny because they guest-star a couple of Mormon missionaries who bumped into Mark while tracting (we called it "field teaching" in my mission) and somehow got roped into helping him assemble copies of "Coven," the short film Mark made during the filming of "American Movie." The best part comes in the fifth episode when Mark is autographing a "Coven" poster for the missionaries and asks them whether "Mormon" is spelled with an "m-a-n" or an "m-o-n" -- and neither of them are too sure at first! I hear that Mark & Mike are appearing on Letterman tonight (Monday night), in case y'all want a short glimpse of what these guys are like before seeing more... Eric D. Dixon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Williams Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 30 Jul 2001 17:15:11 -0600 >It would reveal a bit of conceit to write a novel with a movie sale in mind, >I suppose, but if novels are the safe place for sex and movies are not, >wouldn't a Mormon author want to bear in mind that whatever sex he puts into >a novel may end up graphically portrayed in a film? > >This is an important question to me as I write about sexually-charged topics >in my novel doing my best to avoid vivid portrayals. I can succeed in the >written word, but if anyone were to make a movie out of it, I'd feel like a >pornographer. I'm not even counting on being published much less making a >movie sale, but I have decisions to make. Rex, you ask an excellent question, and I'm not sure I know the answer. I guess I would say, however, that before a book is made into a film, they need the author's permission, don't they? And I suppose you could insist that the sex scenes in your book do not come out too graphic. But I think we might be dealing with an entirely different ball game here (and an entirely new thread). What do you do if the film producer alters your plot? Or leaves out an important character? Or changes one of the scenes? I think Roland Barthes's idea in "Image--Music--Text" (1977) is valuable here. He argues that "a text's unity lies not in its origin but in its destination," and that "It is not that the Author may not 'come back' in the Text, in his text, but he then does so as a 'guest.' If he is a novelist, he is inscribed in the novel like one of his characters, figured in the carpet; no longer privileged, paternal, aletheological, his inscription is ludic. He becomes, as it were, a paper-author: his life is no longer the origin of his fictions but a fiction contributing to his work." This may seem like a rather frustrating injunction for an author trying to control how the film version of his book goes, but I think Barthes is right. Even if you did prevent the sex scenes from becoming pornographic, you would still have little control over how the rest of the scenes are produced, or how talented the actors are, in much the same way that you can hardly dictate how one interprets (or misinterprets) your text once it's been published. Once your work becomes available for public consumption, you float out there with the rest of us, detached and foreign. --John Williams - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Williams Subject: RE: [AML] Editing Literature (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 30 Jul 2001 17:38:28 -0600 >To me the artistic integrity argument takes on a very different tone >when you apply the same editing techniques to a book. Say I want my >kids to read _Catcher in the Rye_ but without all those nasty words. >So I take my copy of _Catcher_ to my local book doctor, who for a fee >will use a razor blade to cut out all the objectionable words and >scenes. How vile to treat a book in such a way. Actually, I think it's pretty much the same. The real problem with editing a work of art is not whether editing is good or bad, but rather WHO is doing the editing. If someone else thinks it's either bad or too mature for me to read, and they eliminate certain portions without my consent, then, yes, you have a kind of Orwellian nightmare emerging. But if I decide to expurgate part of a text, for my own reading, then I certainly have a right to do so. The distinction is that I can't force that expurgation onto someone else. In fact, I would argue that there is probably something wrong with a reader who doesn't make ANY sort of editorial decisions while he or she reads, whether it's deciding when that portion of the text is no longer interesting or valuable, or else just blindly accepting everything one reads. >I cannot stand to see a book mutilated. When I get a book out of the >library, I flip through all the pages and set all the bent corners >straight. You people who bend the pages instead of using a bookmark >make me sick. Heck, I can barely stand to write in a book. I even >have two sets of scriptures. The expensive leather bound edition just >for reading and the cheap simulated leather covered edition in which I >can make marks so I can simulate the proper image of the well-read >Elders Quorum instructor. I too am enchanted by what John Updike called "the charming little clothy box of the thing." But I've grown somewhat weary of hearing about the "sacredness" of books. I'd rather use and abuse my texts than to have immaculately bound copies of Shakespeare and Dickens on my mantle where they collect dust, symbols of the time I DON'T have to read. I agree that dog-earing and cutting one's books is generally a bad idea, but there is certainly nothing morally wrong with either. And it's probably a GOOD idea to write in one's book, as it nearly always ignites one's critical faculties, dramatizing the important interaction one has with a text. However, there IS something morally wrong with dog-earing, cutting, or writing in a LIBRARY book, in which case one is forcing one's own editing on someone else (and, let's not forget, committing a crime). >When I apply my distaste of book mutilation to the practice of >modifying films for the taste of the reader, I get the same bad taste >in my mouth. Do you get the same bad taste in your mouth when you apply this logic to, say, the culinary arts? Ex: the Chef wrote this recipe with green pepper in it. You don't like green peppers, or you're allergic to them? Well, then, you shouldn't be allowed to have the soup at all. Either you get it EXACTLY as the menu describes it or else you don't get it at all (this is starting to sound like the Soup Nazi on Seinfield). >I know many people who freely admit to skipping over >boring sections of books -- they flip past a few pages until they get >past the "council of war" scene and get back to the real action. Why >not use the remote control and just skip over the objectionable scene >-- or wait until the movie comes out on network television. This is exactly my point. There is nothing MORALLY (or artistically) wrong with this. On the surface, it may seem like a rather weak intellectual cop-out to skip the parts you don't like, but, let's face it, everyone does this to a certain extent. We do this on a much smaller scale all the time by giving certain portions of a text more attention than other portions. It seems rather quixotic--even impossible--to argue that everyone must give equal attention to every part of every work of art. I'm even editing your post as I respond to it right now, addressing certain parts and neglecting others. >Heck, if you find the scene that objectionable, then don't buy the >film in the first place. Even if you edit out the scene, you still >know the scene existis. Here you have an interesting argument. I would add only two things: (1) The simple rule of supply and demand indicates that if enough people were editing their films, and if producers knew about it, then they would make edited versions. Or, one could argue, these people have a personal agenda to make immoral films, in which case, they will keep making bad films, whether you buy them or not, and your personal boycott makes no difference anyway. (2) How far does one carry this boycott? You don't like the fact that Barnes and Nobles sells books on abortion, so you don't ever shop there? (Once, while working at Deseret Book I heard an even wackier version of this argument: an irate shopper approached me and argued that Deseret Book should not sell Colin Powell's biography because he supports abortion, as if there were some logical connection between Abortion--Colin Powell--Deseret Book--The Church). I don't like the fact that Martin Luther King committed adultery so I don't celebrate Human Rights Day? Don't even turn on the TV because, even if you change the channel, you still know the objectionable scene exists on the other channel? If another church doesn't have the entire truth, then ignore it entirely? I much prefer your "personal integrity" argument below. >Within a few >years, you will only find DVDs on the shelves. And a few more years >after that, theaters will have digital projectors that no longer use >easily editable films. How will you then edit out the scenes? Pay >someone to burn a new DVD one for you? I don't own a DVD player, but as I understand it, you can quite easily program your DVD player to skip whatever parts you don't like (please correct me if I'm wrong here). In fact, it might even be EASIER to edit with DVD than VHS, since you don't have to actually cut anything. >The only successful long-term >solution -- for any medium -- becomes personal integrity. What will >we as individuals allow into our minds? Here I think we agree. If my mom decides to edit her DVD movies, then great. I'm not going to tell her she can't watch the movie at all because she didn't like that one part. And, likewise, I won=92t insist that she order her artichoke saute with parsley in it, even if she misses out on the WHOLE saute. --John Williams - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN News Briefs: Kent Larsen 29Jul01 X1 Date: 30 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0400 News Briefs 1. LDS Filmmaker Groberg Recognized with Pioneer Day Award OGDEN, UTAH -- Film maker Lee B. Groberg, a native of Farr West, Utah, was given one of five 2001 Utah Pioneers of Progress awards Tuesday as part of the "Days of '47" celebration. The awards honor outstanding Utah citizens who have, in their own areas of endeavor, carried on the pioneering spirit of the original pioneers who first settled Utah. Grobert is the owner of Groberg Communications, a film production company, and has produced two highly acclaimed documentaries for PBS, "Trail of Hope: The Story of the Mormon Trail," and "American Prophet: The Story of Joseph Smith." Groberg was born in 1951 and now resides in Bountiful, Utah with his wife, Jeanene and seven children. In addition to "Trail of Hope" and "American Prophet" Groberg also wrote and directed "American Gunmaker: The John M. Browning Story," two other documentaries and three educational films. He is currently working on a film about Nauvoo. PBS docu-films earn Farr West native award for 'pioneering' Ogden UT Standard-Examiner 26Jul01 A2 http://www.standard.net/standard/news/news_story.html?sid=000107251905180392 20+cat=community+template=news1.html >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 30 Jul 2001 21:30:07 -0600 On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:17:34 -0700, ???n ??e wrote: > Another film=20 >with a very graphic, if distant sex scene that I did see was _The Name = of=20 >the Rose_ from the novel by Umberto Eco. I did not read the novel, but = have=20 >to believe that the scene in the movie must have come from the book, = given=20 >the importance of the scene to the title. The scene in the book is presented in a highly metaphorical sense, in = which sex becomes the realization of all the young protagonist's ideals of = beauty and love. The scene in the movie is a lot of grunting and moaning. The = two couldn't be more different. It's an important scene (that is, the fact = of his having sex at that time with that person in that way) because of who = the protagonist and the woman are, and because of the things the protagonist = is struggling with. And there was never any way they could film it the way = it was written because it's a long string of images free-associating in the = way such things do inside one's head. But in the movie, it comes across as--well, as watching someone have non-pornographic sex (that is, the = real thing, not erotic choreography with a sleazy soundtrack). It misses the whole point of how the protagonist (whose name I just can't remember = right now) felt about the incident, which is every bit as important as the fact that it occurred at all. I was annoyed by it. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Jennie HANSEN, _The River Path_ (Review) Date: 30 Jul 2001 14:38:15 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:00 AM > At 08:50 PM 7/26/01 -0700, you wrote: > >There are some points of discontinuity that are puzzling. One > >that comes to mind involves Matt's decision to purchase cell > >phones for himself and for Dana. Having delivered the phone to > >her, she soon finds herself needing to make a call. She runs to > >a phone booth, finds it busy, and goes looking for another one. > >No explanation is given as to why she couldn't just use her cell > >phone. > > Maybe the character is like me. I got a cell phone recently, but I keep > forgetting about it. I forget to charge it, or I leave it at home. Maybe > she did the same. (I think I do it because I know the reason my son > encouraged me to get it is so he can find me when he wants a free babysitter.) > > > barbara hume > Hee hee hee! Yes, perhaps that's what happened! - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Rex Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 30 Jul 2001 22:36:03 -0600 For me, the novel (Backslider) > was moving, wonderfully written, and did tell me a lot about the meaning of > temptation and shame for Mormons. I also happen to think it's one of the best > American novels written in the last 20 years. > > This said, I'm sad to hear of Alan Mitchell's allergic response. I mean, isn't > there room for both ends of the spectrum? > --Ruth Starkman Alan responds: Sure, there is plenty of room. And I'm sure my comments (sneeze!) about hurling Backslider across the room were taken as compliments, if Peterson is listening. From what I know of him, he is a mild-mannered gentleman who likes to stir things up. There is a fair amount of tension in his books and stories, some of which relies on sexual tension and guilt (now there's an understatement). The characters' tentative commitment and fear-soaked testimonies add to the tension. Levi's story of St. Augustine comes to mind, but it could apply to many of his stories. As I said earlier, I wish there was a way for the Gerald Lunds to put more Peterson in their stories. My comment about reading the discourses of Brigham Young for balance is best explained by the tone: Bro. Brigham was 99.9 percent sure of himself and his mission. That confidence is stablizing for some of us. For others, it may sound like blos bravado. Also, I like him because Brigham was a man who was not dominated by his sexual desires. Alan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] re: Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 30 Jul 2001 23:04:42 -0500 At 03:16 PM 7/27/01, you wrote: >Something about this list is disturbing. I really like knowing there = >are other people out there--somewhere--who are like me. I really like = >everyone's opinions, but it bothers me to read that there should be a = >"mission" to my writing. I already went on a mission. I've got kids = >now. Now is the time to be happy. Anything beyond "have a good time" = >is going to lead to preachiness, which was the downfall of Mormon = >literature of the 70's. Be happy! Learn to love something. Write in a = >way that will cause you to be happy. Even if the subject matter is dark = >or disturbing if you love something happiness will come from it. (At = >least, that;s what I tell myself.) Maybe that is a "mission" of sorts. > >Paris Anderson Will I get yelled at for simply saying, "Hear, hear!"? --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Jennie HANSEN, _The River Path_ (Review) Date: 30 Jul 2001 23:12:57 -0500 At 01:00 PM 7/30/01, barbara hume wrote: >At 08:50 PM 7/26/01 -0700, you wrote: >>There are some points of discontinuity that are puzzling. One >>that comes to mind involves Matt's decision to purchase cell >>phones for himself and for Dana. Having delivered the phone to >>her, she soon finds herself needing to make a call. She runs to >>a phone booth, finds it busy, and goes looking for another one. >>No explanation is given as to why she couldn't just use her cell >>phone. > >Maybe the character is like me. I got a cell phone recently, but I keep >forgetting about it. I forget to charge it, or I leave it at home. Maybe >she did the same. (I think I do it because I know the reason my son >encouraged me to get it is so he can find me when he wants a free babysitter.) If you were male, you could wear it on your belt. (Though I confess to have occasionally left the house and sometime later--when I needed to make a call, of course-- discovered that the holster is empty and the cell phone is still safely hooked to its charger back at home.) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 31 Jul 2001 08:05:12 -0600 On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:17:34 -0700 "???n ??e" writes: > Another film with a very graphic, if distant sex scene that I did > see was _The Name of the Rose_ from the novel by Umberto > Eco. I did not read the novel, but have to believe that the scene > in the movie must have come from the book, given the > importance of the scene to the title. It did come from the book, but it wasn't translated correctly. The depiction of the sex in the movie was crud, crass and visceral. The depiction of the scene in the book was ethereal at the very least. No grunting or groaning or cries of passion. It all took place in that young monk's head. I was one paragraph long and went a long way to reveal his character. He did his best to turn his sin into a spiritual experience, which, I believe is left to the reader to determine if that is right and good. I think the scene in the film marred an otherwise brilliant story. I'm not against the idea of the scene being included, just didn't like the way it was portrayed. Rex, if you don't want "hollywood" to mess up your story, there are three things you can do. 1. Don't let them have your book. 2. Make the film yourself. 3. Contractually, maintain complete creative control. Of course, number three means never getting your film made in "hollywood.' J. Scott Bronson -- Member of Playwrights Circle --- "The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent upon it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do." Galileo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: [AML] Re: LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 31 Jul 2001 00:27:00 -0500 > > It's part of being true to yourself. There are mainstream LDS writers out > there who don't put any LDS material in their writing. Doesn't that kind of > feel like they sold "us" out? Honestly, no. I don't think writers "sell out" if they don't put their religion in their writing. Sometimes being LDS has nothing to do with the story. For instance if your writing a fantasy that takes place on another world, you may use LDS elements subliminally put in, but you won't have LDS characters. If you write a crime drama, you might not have any LDS reference in it. It's not selling out because most of the world isn't LDS. I would consider it a sell out if an LDS person put graphic sex, swearing or used ideas that were against LDS belief. That's not to say that you're Catholic cop can't express his personal beliefs. I'm talking about taking our religion and making it look like a cult. Anna [Wight] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 31 Jul 2001 00:35:49 -0500 > I have no doubt that Martindale and Bigelow and Duncan can have > significant success both in the national and the LDS markets. I > believe Proffit and Wight and Hume can reach both their literary and > their financial (read "copies sold") goals in whatever markets they > pursue. But the way they will do it is with excellent writing and > storytelling, not reliance on "our" publishers to publish our stories > just because they're ours. Just out of curiousity (here's my geneology side kicking in) who is Wight? Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: [AML] AML-List Review Archive Update Date: 31 Jul 2001 14:00:49 -0600 I have updated the AML-List Review Archives with the following reviews: 435 The Other Side of Heaven by Mitch Davis reviewed by Margaret Young (13 April 2001) 436 Brigham City by Richard Dutcher reviewed by J. Scott Bronson (17 April 2001) 437 I'll Find You by Clair Poulson reviewed by Jeff Needle (24 April 2001) 438 Brigham City by Richard Dutcher reviewed by Rob Williams (25 April 2001) 439 One in a Billion by Sharlee Mullins Glenn reviewed by Marilyn Brown (3 May 2001) 440 One More River to Cross by Margaret Blair Young reviewed by Samuel Brunson (3 May 2001) 441 Diary of Anne Frank reviewed by Harlow S. Clark (4 May 2001) 442 Ashley and Jen by Jack Weyland reviewed by Katie Parker (11 May 2001) 443 Praise to the Man by Larry Barkdull reviewed by Terry L Jeffress (16 May 2001) 444 Wine-Dark Sea of Grass by Marilyn Brown reviewed by D. Michael Martindale (16 May 2001) 445 Falling Toward Heaven by John Bennion reviewed by D. Michael Martindale (16 May 2001) 446 Joseph F. Smith: Portrait of a Prophet by Richard Neitzel Holzapfel reviewed by Jeff Needle (19 May 2001) 447 Wine-Dark Sea of Grass by Marilyn Brown reviewed by Morgan B. Adair (21 May 2001) 448 The Message by Lance Richardso n reviewed by Jeff Needle (22 May 2001) 449 On This Day in the Church: An Illustrated Almanac of the Latter-day Saints by Richard Neitzel Holzapfel reviewed by Larry Jackson (27 May 2001) 450 Restoration Scriptures: A Study of Their Textual Development by Richard P. Howard reviewed by Jeff Needle (28 May 2001) 451 In the Eye of the Storm by John H. Groberg reviewed by Larry Jackson (1 June 2001) 452 Fishers of Men by Gerald N. Lund reviewed by Andrew R Hall (3 June 2001) 453 SF X 5 reviewed by Ivan Angus Wolfe (7 June 2001) 454 The Testaments of One Fold and One Shepherd reviewed by D. Michael Martindale (13 June 2001) 455 Just Wait by Craig Huls reviewed by Terry L Jeffress (13 June 2001) 456 The Testaments of One Fold and One Shepherd reviewed by Richard Dutcher (13 June 2001) 457 Angel of the Danube by Alan Rex Mitchell reviewed by Jacob Proffitt (15 June 2001) 458 The Testaments of One Fold and One Shepherd reviewed by Jacob Proffitt (15 June 2001) 459 Macady by Jennie Hansen reviewed by Jeff Needle (23 June 2001) 460 Brigham City by Richard Dutcher reviewed by Marjorie Meyer (27 June 2001) 461 Macady by Jennie Hansen reviewed by Katie Parker (29 June 2001) 462 Kirtland by Susan Evans McCloud reviewed by Katie Parker (2 July 2001) 463 I Hated Heaven: A Novel of Love after Death by Kenny Kemp reviewed by Jeff Needle (10 July 2001) 464 Joseph Smith's United Order by Kent W. Huff reviewed by D. Michael Martindale (10 July 2001) 465 Brigham Young's United Order by Kent W. Huff reviewed by D. Michael Martindale (11 July 2001) 466 Knowledge is Power by Sidney B. Sperry reviewed by Jeff Needle (13 July 2001) 467 The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint by Brady Udall reviewed by Andrew R Hall (23 July 2001) 468 The River Path by Jennie Hansen reviewed by Jeff Needle (26 July 2001) I really should update the archive more frequently so that this message doesn't get so long, but it seems like I only updated the list a few weeks ago. Since this message has gotten so long, I will skip the statistics. At this point, we have 59 reviews this year. We should easily surpass 100 reviews this year. I guess I'll have to set a harder challenge for next year. -- Terry L Jeffress | What is written without effort is, in | general, read without pleasure. | -- Samuel Johnson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] AML Mailing List Date: 31 Jul 2001 14:28:10 -0600 If you are not already on the AML's snail-mail list but would like to received printed notices about AML events and publications, please send your snail-mail address to irreantum2@cs.com. Occasionally we randomly select names to receive a sample copy of Irreantum, so if you haven't gotten around to subscribing, you may luck out that way. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 31 Jul 2001 20:44:54 +0000 Why can't you do something that you consider a `mission' and be happy at the same time? Anything I love and choose to do well I consider a `mission', for instance; raising my children, my marriage, my relationships, my church callings, if I had a job . . .(HA! like all of these things aren't a job!) The list goes on and on. When I have died, and God looks back at what I've written, done, etc. I want Him to see that I fulfilled my calling (I believe God considers sharing the gospel every LDS person's calling, Where much is given much is required, right?) to carry the gospel to all of those who don't have it. Sooo, even if I never publish much, my children will read what I write, and I want my writing to say something to them about what I believe, and what kind of values I promote. That is my mission, and I am very happy with it! Your mission should never be over. How can two years of your life possibly make up for everything that God has given You? [Tami Miller] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _Gadianton_ (in _Sunstone_) Date: 31 Jul 2001 17:22:51 -0700 (PDT) I received the new July 2001 issue of "Sunstone" in the mail yesterday and found it features Eric Samuelsen's play about business and morality, "Gadianton" (with a new essay by Eric on the genesis and writing of it.) I urge everyone to get hold of this immediately. Eric is every bit the writer Neil LaBute is, with a more urgent commitment to specifically Mormon themes. As for his tale of getting "Gadianton" to the stage at BYU, Eric is a better and more patient man than I am. (EVERYBODY wants to tell you what and how to write--at other universities they have speech codes, and Hollywood has odious little consultants that give you "notes" on what is commercial. I suspect the process at BYU is gentler than those, but no less final.) ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm