From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #194 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Tuesday, November 14 2000 Volume 01 : Number 194 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:24:59 -0700 From: Lee Allred Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback I'm afraid I disagree strenuously with one comment Chris Bigelow made in his assessment of the Writers' Conference. Chris stated: "I don't think [Darius] Gray addressed a useful topic." There are a number of ways in which to respond: the trendy inclusionary "I Want to Teach the World To Sing" Coke Commercial response; the "a presentation on ''Extending the Depth and Breadth of our Culture' in a conference subtitled 'Extending the Culture' is Certainly Apropos response; and several others possible responses. But I wish to respond as a writer, a very selfish what's-in-it-for-me-as-a-writer response. Chris made a number of excellent suggestions and criticisms of the conference. I read his take on Darius' panel as an extension of his theme that the conference should be a nuts-and-bolts writers' panel, not a pleasant afternoon for literary spectators. In that context, it might be easy to view Margaret's and Darius' presentation, while pleasant, informative, and thought-provoking, as taking up space on a limited program schedule that might more profitably be used for writing workshops or agent/editor interviews or manuscript critiques...something more practical for serious writers. And it is this that I must strenuously disagree. There are many things a writer has to keep in mind while plying his craft: plot, characterization, manuscript formatting, editors and publishers, agents, etc. etc. Chris mentioned most if not all of these in his assessment. But there is one critical, one crucial element he did not. Audience. And that English-language Mormon Literature audience has an ever-growing segment of non-Wasatch Front, non-white readership. Unless a writer is dead set on reaching an ever-shrinking piece of the pie, it would behoove that writer to learn how to reach them. At the very least learn to not turn them away. (And these arguments are even stronger for those wishing to write Mormon Literature for the national market.) Margaret's and Darius' presentation was two-fold. Margaret gave several general points to consider, along several different cultural groups (and included a personal way a writer could "do research" to learn how to be more inclusionary one one's writing). Darius gave a presentation on one concrete example of a simple elementary cultural assumption, one not intended to give offense, many if not most Mormons share can not only be hurt-giving, but stands the very real probability (as Darius' scriptural scholarship attests) of being flat out ethnocentrically wrong. Unnecessarily wrong. Now. The genealogical portion of Darius' presentation didn't take all that much time. Twenty minutes, maybe? Thirty? I learned more in that twenty or thirty minutes as a writer (not to mention as a person) than I did during the rest of the conference, excellent as the other sessions were. I can't claim I've suddenly solved the problem of writing inclusionary Mormon Literature or other great feats of multicultural derring-do after attending that presentation. But I do have a much better insight, as a writer, into one segment of my audience that I didn't have before attending. And I do know that my approach to any writing project in which I might attempt dealing with Old or New Testament times is forever changed. For the better, I think. And as a writer, a very selfish what's-in-it-for-me writer, I find that "a useful topic." A useful topic indeed. Lee Lee Allred leea@sff.net www.leeallred.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:52:39 -0700 From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" I've been up to my hips for many years in the logistics and considerations surrounding high school plays, so if I might offer a little perspective: > From: Of Chris Grant > > A few thoughts on the "Godspell" controversy: > > (1) Richard Johnson suggested that students opposed to the > play simply not participate in it. Is it really that simple? > In my high school, all drama students (i.e., those in drama > classes or intending to letter in drama) were required to > participate in all plays (either as cast or crew). Of course. But any student objecting to a show on grounds of their individual ethic can certainly be excused, particularly if the parents also object. Happens all the time. I once had a family go ballistic because Joe Cable's shirt is off in "South Pacific". > (2) Even if there is no such requirement at Ogden High, > there are only so many plays a school can put on during the > year. A school that puts on a play that is too offensive for > a student to participate in has reduced the number of plays > that that student can participate in. The school limits the number of plays available to any given student with every decision it makes to produce or not produce a particular play. "I'm sorry -- there just aren't parts for everybody who auditioned" is a very familiar refrain. > (3) The _Deseret News_ story on the controversy suggests > that Ogden High students need to seek special permission *not* > to attend a school play. Given that level of endorsement of > its plays by the school, I can see why some students and > parents might not be satisfied with the "love it or leave it" > option. Again, sure, it happens all the time, and not a big deal. The school has an assembly where the entire student body is expected to attend the play, and just like with any other assembly, a student has to have special permission not to attend. > (4) Thom Duncan said that he thought the dissenting parents > were "hyper-spiritual". In 1994 President Hinckley wrote a > letter to Pioneer Theatre Company threatening to withdraw the > Church's grant to that company because of profanity in some of > their productions. I'm assuming Thom doesn't think President > Hinckley is hyper-spiritual, so I was wondering what he thought > the essential difference is between these parents' actions > this year and President Hinckley's actions in 1994. If Ogden > High were to put on the plays President Hinckley objected to, > could parents object to them without being hyper-spiritual? Apples and oranges. President Hinckley did an entirely appropriate thing: he informed the theatre's decision-makers that one of their major and very influential contributors didn't like some decisions they were making. We all make decisions where we spend our money based on how we feel about what is being done. That's very different from trying to keep others from producing or viewing something. If President Hinckley, who has the ultimate moral authority if anyone is going to object to a production, limits his response to a gentle reminder that the theatre is offending a major contributor, what makes anyone else think they should go further? Here IMO is a good example of a good example. - -- Scott Tarbet - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 10:01:21 -0500 From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" I very much enjoyed Chris Grant's post about Godspell. He really gets at the heart of some of these questions. I particularly liked his observations that it is not so easy for offended students to just bow out. In many cases, theater productions are mandatory for those taking the classes, even if it is tech work and the like. Also also think that his comparison to Hinckely a valuble line of thought. surely we must recognize that the prophet is in a different role as leader and that every public move he makes is one in which he more or less, "speaks for the Church." We as citizens do not always speak for the church, so we have a little more latitude. The danger is when people see the acts of individual church members in this light. Sometimes members actually INVITE the comparison of their actions and attitudes to those of the prophet, and there is a great danger in this. And regarding the comments on Duncan's thoughts on hyper-spirituality: I'm not sure that someone can be hyper-spiritual, but I am sure that people can promote their spirituality (at whatever level) in a rude and thoughtless way. In the same vein, I think that people can promote their free-thinking ideals in a rude and thoughtless way. To condemn a condemner doesn't seem to to much. I was just in Austin, TX and joined in the election protests on the Texas State Capitol (I won't say which side). There was no discussion going on, just hollering. No one was being convinced of anything. It felt good, and it felt like action, but it wasn't action. Not really. It was, in many ways, just yelling. Sort of like what we got here for a while on the Ogden issue. - -- Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:59:15 -0700 From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum >>> annette@lyfe.com 11/09/00 01:39PM >>> > >A few months ago, I recall a lively debate over whether the play _Bash_ = (was >that the title?) should have been written with the national audience in = mind >when it portayed Mormons so badly (homophobia, the same issue). That if = it >was written for us, as a wakeup call, that would be one thing, but to >portray us to the masses, a group that may stereotype us, was something = else >entirely. But no one has said a word about that regarding _Dancing = Naked_. >Is that because we all assumed it was written for us? Well, it wasn't. = Does >that change how we view it? The protagonist in _Dancing Naked_, Terry, was an inactive Mormon,=20 but that's about the extent of the Mormon factor in the book. Terry is=20 homophobic, but he learned his attitudes from his father. The Church is = not=20 portrayed as the source of those attitudes. MBA - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:00:21 -0700 From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > [MOD: I'd like to add that anyone who didn't attend the conference but might > be interested in attending future ones should perhaps provide input also to > let us know what would make you more or less interested in attending.] > > To those who attended the writers conference, thank you. We'd like to > know what you thought of it so we can put on a better one next time. If > you would respond to the following 15 questions, it would be very > helpful: > > 1. Was the conference worth attending? Why? Absolutely! I thoroughly enjoyed putting names from the AML list with faces. It was fun to meet Rachel Nunes. And the offerings of the conference were so specific for Mormon writers, with such excellent, knowledgeable presenters, that it should've inspired everyone who attended. > > > 2. What would you change to make it more valuable to you? > The biggest problem for me was the snafu with the date. It was too bad that the Nov. 11 date got publicized before the location was secured, which ultimately meant that we didn't get to hear Richard Dutcher (I was truly excited to meet him!) and Kristen Randall, who I haven't seen in twenty years. > > 3. Was the admittance fee fair, or do you think it should be different? > I think the fee was EXTRAORDINARY! For what was offered, every participant should've felt that they got the deal of a lifetime. Most conferences are priced in the $300. range--because big-name writers are paid to come. We actually had bit-name writers who came without pay. Only in a Mormon society! > > 4. Do you prefer having a catered lunch, or would you rather fend for > yourself? Was the lunch priced fairly? Lunch was fine, and a good place for socializing. I frankly enjoyed the conversation better than the food. > > > 5. Which sessions were most valuable to you? > I was a presenter, and only heard part of Dean Hughes' presentation, but I thought it wonderful. He is always so unpretentious and helpful. > > 6. How could any sessions you attended have been improved? > > 7. What are your feelings about using UVSC as the location? Were the > facilities acceptable? Where would you prefer the conference be held? > More signs were needed to direct us to the Student Center. I guess I'd prefer BYU's facilities, but I had no strong objections. > > 8. Do you like the time of year the conference is held (November), or > would you prefer another? Summer time would perhaps make it more a possibility for those who don't live in the area. > > > 9. Was the length of the conference about right, or would you prefer a > longer conference (evening sessions, more than one day)? > About right. > > 10. How did you like the guests of honor: Margaret Young, Darius Gray, > Dean Hughes? > I ALWAYS enjoy Dean Hughes. I won't analyze myself, but will say something about Darius Gray, because I was SO PROUD of him. He resisted this symposium, thinking this was "my" crowd--writerly types. Darius does not consider himself a writer. (He's a wonderful writer despite what he thinks, but he doesn't consider himself one.) I was sorry that Chris Bigelow didn't get much from Darius's plenary talk. I thought it was excellent, and want to contextualize it for the AML listers. Here is a man who has been a Mormon for 35 years, who was called a "nigger" the first time he attended the Church he had joined, who deals almost daily with calls from around the country from Blacks who are struggling to keep their faith in a religion which seems, at times, not to want them. Darius presented Biblical genealogy, listing Blacks in the Bible (or those who very well could've been Black) and suggesting that the Savior's appearance wasn't Swedish. He came with no intent to give literary helps, but with a strong desire, sprung of his own life and of his stewardship as the president of the Genesis Group, to help white Mormons expand their paradigm--which is exactly what the title of our session suggested we do. I was extremely impressed with his preparation. I am always impressed by his knowledge. If you take the implications of what Darius said, the challenge to Mormon writers was very clear: That we must do better than we have done in presenting literature which embraces and extends to other cultures, which now make up so much of our Church. Does it matter that Mormon writers change their paradigm of Biblical genealogy? Does it matter that they get to know the connections between Ham, Cush, and the land of Jerusalem? I think it does. One of Darius's aims in our writing partnership has been to help me see further than I have been trained to see into Black culture. Last week, he brought me two videos about the artistic depiction of Blacks over the past century. We watched white actors apply blackface to do minstrel acts, which eventually gave way to black actors blackening their own faces and caricaturing themselves. This has been essential knowledge, because Elijah Abel (one of our main characters) performed minstrel acts in Ogden during the 1870's. As I came to understand the history of these shows, I also pictured Elijah--this remarkable convert to Mormonism, holder of the priesthood, and friend of Joseph Smith--painting his face to essentially mock himself and his people. It is a disquieting and poignant image. For me to better understand what Elijah Abel went through in his life, it mattered that I understand the history of the kind of show he performed. For us to better understand our own Christian heritage, I think it vital that we understand the undyed ROOTS of our faith. I was so pleased that Darius accepted the invitation to speak, and hope that most who heard him heard what he was actually saying, and understood that the implications are far-reaching for any of us who are working to expand the borders of Mormon literature. [Margaret Young] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:54:32 -0700 (MST) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing > > All in all, it looks to me like another big helping of Mormon-American = > processed cheese. I don't know about you, but this ain't my culture. > > Chris Bigelow=20 > Well - it's mine. I may not like all of it (I personally don't care for kitsch), but it must sell - real people do buy these things and they enjoy them and apparently get something out of them that I don't. If it helps them be better people, or have more fulfilled lives, I say more power to them The stuff Deseret book sells in the way of Christmas kitsch may not be to my liking, but it is to my mother and father and plenty of other real people whose judgement I respect and whi I know are critical thinkers. - --Ivan Wolfe - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:01:10 -0700 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Real People On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:57:02 -0700, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >I think that might be going too far to the other extreme. I'd be happy >with a family that does most of them well, but falls short in one or two >areas which end up causing conflict. A family that does all the right things has plenty of conflict already. Messing up on one or two areas is more likely to reduce conflict if anything. Kids just don't want to do the right thing all the time so = when parents *do* you will have a lot of struggle already. Jacob - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:07:34 -0700 (MST) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life > > > Apparently autoerotic > >asphyxiation does happen, but is it realism or something else > >that has induced Signature Books to publish two novels on the > >subject in the last 5 years? > > Apparently, it happens enough in our culture for President Hinckeley to > mention during the last Priesthood Conference. > Thom Ivan replies - Pres. Hinckley was talking about something totally different - it was a fad when I was in Jr high and high school and has apaprently popped up again in Utah - it may eventually give into the autoerotic asphyxiation if done long enough, but the point when I was in high school was merely to choke the person until they passed out - while I never had it doen to me, I was around dozens of men in the locker room who were doing it and had it done and not one of them had an erotic experience - they just though it was "cool" to black out. That is the practice Pres. Hinckley was talking about. - --Ivan Wolfe - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:42:16 -0700 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:25:52 -0700, Thom Duncan wrote: >What books like Dancing Naked does is help others see what I and others = have >had to learn the hard way--that we, as Mormons, are, sad to say, no = better >or worse than any other group of people our size. I know we'd like to = think >so, but it doesn't seem to be that way. > >When it comes to human behavior, literally anything you can imagine = humans >doing has been done, and Mormons have done it as much, if not more in = some >cases, as other people. Thom, your data is as statistically invalid as anybody else's. I see no support for your statements that Mormons are as wicked or degraded as any other group our size. Frankly, to believe such a statement, you have to believe that the gospel has *no* elevating influence. That is just = wrong. Individual Mormons may well be as degraded as any other individuals in = the world, but I believe that the gospel influence, while not absolute, is certainly efficacious enough to give us an aggregate edge. True, you can't judge an individual by the group. Just because I am = Mormon doesn't mean I am by definition more moral than any other individual. = But claiming that Mormons as a group are as degraded as any other group is saying that the true gospel of Christ has no meaning in the lives of = members of the Church ostensibly lead by Christ. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:42:54 -0700 From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Thom Duncan wrote: [quoting me] >>I don't know people who exhibit the level of perfection Michael >>discusses, but I do know people that are doing pretty well in >>many of the areas he discusses. I certainly know more of them >>than I do people who are meth addicts or have committed suicide. > >You may be right. You may also not [know?] your friends as well >as you [think you?] do. I agree that no mortal (including novelists and playwrights) has perfect understanding of the life of another. On the other hand, unless I'm trapped within "Weekend at Bernie's", the number of my friends that have committed suicide does not exceed the number I think are dead. [...] >What books like Dancing Naked does is help others see what I and >others have had to learn the hard way--that we, as Mormons, are, >sad to say, no better or worse than any other group of people >our size. How could a work of fiction (as opposed to a sociological study) possibly provide evidence that Mormons are, in reality, identical to all other equally-sized groups? [...] >A friend who teaches abnormal psychology at BYU stood on my >front porch in North Orem once and told me, "Thom, you would be >shocked if I told you how many people, many within walking >distance, many whom you know from this ward, are involved in the >most disgusting aspects of human behavior: spouse abuse, child >sexual molestation. If your friend really knows of people in your ward who are involved in child sexual molestation, why is he gossiping to you about it instead of turning them in? [quoting me again] >>I know stake presidents have a lot of problems to deal >>with, but how many of them have Relief Society sisters >>defecating on their front porch, as happens in Levi Peterson's >>"The Christianizing of Coburn Heights"? > >My first Bishop had an affair with the RS president, stole all >the tithing money in our ward, and ran off with her. When your RS president defecates on your stake president's front porch, let me know. [...] >>Apparently autoerotic asphyxiation does happen, but is it >>realism or something else that has induced Signature Books to >>publish two novels on the subject in the last 5 years? > >Apparently, it happens enough in our culture for President >Hinckeley to mention during the last Priesthood Conference. The pass-out game President Hinckley referred to (a) is usually not auto, (b) is not erotic, and, unlike autoerotic asphyxiation, (c) is based on restricting blood flow to the brain. See, e.g., "http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/libstory_state?dn00&0009290211". [...] >>In Kathryn Kidd's _The Alphabet Year_, there's a three-year-old >>boy who lives in Salt Lake City and is almost always buck naked >>when he's in public. When he visits a fire station, he "burn[s] >>his private parts by sliding down the fireman's pole naked". >>Realistic? I don't think so. > >Because you've never seen it? Maybe I've lived a secluded life. Everyone who knows of a three- year-old who, who while visiting a fire station, "burned his private parts by sliding down a fireman's pole naked", raise your hand. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 19:49:07 -0200 From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Topics for Satire D. Michael Martindale said: > They're really saying that? Better tell all those General Authorities to stop cracking jokes then (including President Hinckley). I don=B4t attend conferences in English....The Authorities in Brazil have a diferent behavior....I supose... I=B4ll will try to listen to the general conference on the net to try to change my mind about this... Thanks Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:04:12 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Real People (A Reading List) And I would add John Updike, John Irving, Philip Roth. Chris Bigelow - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:22:07 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Responding to Lee Allred: You've grasped something something kind of ethereal about the Young/Gray = plenary session that I still don't really get. I wonder if the Young/Gray = presentation would have been more suited to the AML's annual academic = conference. I guess I could just think of a lot of things I'd rather have = heard them talk about, such as how two people collaborate to write a book = and maybe more about the publishing process. Certainly some of the = presentation (especially Margaret's part) was useful and interesting for a = writers' conference---I just thought it didn't send me away satisfied as = an ending for a writers' conference.=20 Here's hoping I don't meet Margaret Young in person for a few more weeks, = until my gooey-in-the-middle e-mails have blown over . . .=20 Chris Bigelow - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:46:48 -0700 From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing > Have you seen the latest issue of the Latter-Day Harvest catalog? I have not seen it, but I will add this.....Latter-Day Harvest has been the *only* place I have been able to track down Benson Parkinson's book _Set Apart_ and they have been very helpful in finding other hard to find elsewhere Mormon literature. Hopefully this helps balance out their need to stay afloat in the bookselling business by selling "kitsch" - that seemingly is a big seller this time of year. ;) Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:54:05 -0700 From: Lee Allred Subject: [AML] US NEWS & WORLD REPORT Cover Story on Mormonism The November 13th issue of US NEWS & WORLD REPORT features a cover story, "The Mormon Moment" by Jeffery L. Sheler, on Mormonism--particularly on the Church's rate of growth. One of the most fascinating elements of the article is that Sheler draws heavily on Harold Bloom's 1992 book, THE AMERICAN RELIGION. (A Bloom quote is used for one of the photo blurbs, in fact.) The article is even-handed (quite so when compared to the hit-pieces TIME occasionally runs) and goes into substantial detail about the struggles a the Utah Church that suddenly finds itself a worldwide multicultural entity is currently going through. For the amount of depth a newsmagazine is limited to, the extent of the article is impressive. When was the last time you read a cogent summary of the pros and cons of the dreaded Correlation issue in a national weekly? There's a sidebar article covering missionaries tracting in Japan, photos of the MTC and Wasatch-area Church member activities, including a baptism and a setting apart for a Church calling. There's also an underlying mild paranoia (present, too, in Bloom's book) of the unstoppable juggernaut of the Invasion of the Baptizing Pod People. One of my favorite quotes is the shocked realization that "[i]n North America, Mormons already outnumber Presbyterians and Episcopalians combined." And of course, there's the inevitable muttering about how rich the Mormon Church--those bounders won't turn over their financial records!--secretly is. All in all, however, the attempt at a fair, neutral article is quite commendable. There were some shots taken, some detractors quoted without refutation, but there were some positive observations and several zingy quotes from Church authorities and members in there, too. Lee Lee Allred leea@sff.net www.leeallred.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:37:01 -0700 From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum I would be interested to know how Margaret's student perceives the "demonized stereotypes" in _Dancing Naked_. If the student is referring to Terry's father, I don't think he's stereotyped, although he may be sketched to the limit :). Still, I have heard people talk in the same way and seen them behave similarly too, sometimes maybe worse. I think we may not want to recognize or like these characters because they're too close to home. Similarly, a reading-group friend threw _Salt Dancers_ in the fireplace because she "hated" it--translate that into too close to home, I think. I think that it's more important to get past our visceral reactions to the characters and find the meaning in _Dancing Naked_, which is that our feelings, responses, character, and ways of being in the world are forged in our backgrounds: family, childhood, maybe our chromosomes. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:40:55 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Availability of Student Films (was: Writers' Conference Feedback) I appreciate Gae Lyn talking about the student films. I agree that both = War Play and The Last Good War are outstanding films. Based on the response at AML, I've encouraged the College here to put both = those films on sale through the BYU Performing Arts Catalogue. Right now, = they're only available for sale through the filmmakers themselves. If = anyone's interested, The Last Good War was made by Ryan Little, and he can = be contacted at (801) 371-0563, or via the Theatre and Media Arts = Department at BYU. Brian Lefler directed War Play (which I think is a = wonderful film to show children about violence--my kids absolutely loved = it, and got the message very clearly indeed). Brian can be reached at = (801) 756-5824. Both films will be, I think, more widely available, but = it may be a few weeks. The Last Good War is set during WWII. An American soldier is captured by = a German soldier, and the film explores their relationship, and Christian = values in a war setting. War Play is about a boy who plays war games with = a friend of his. Their game gets way out of hand, with devastating = results. They're both exceptionally well made, and both run about 15 = minutes. Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 19:54:42 -0600 From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Topics for Satire At 00:59 11-11-00 -0700, you wrote: >renatorigo wrote: > > > We musn=B4t laugh at church, conferences...etc > >They're really saying that? Better tell all those General Authorities to >stop cracking jokes then (including President Hinckley). > >-- >D. Michael Martindale >dmichael@wwno.com Oops. I guess that means that all of us in the Celestial Room at the=20 temple dedication a couple of months ago are doomed because we laughed at=20 President Hinckley's opening joke? - -- Ronn! :) - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:38:04 -0500 From: Merlyn J Clarke Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life I've only jumped into this thread, but there was an extended piece in the NYT about a court case in Prove, Utah involving a local video outlet owner being sued for renting porn videos. During the court hearing, so the report told, the man's attorney happened to look out the window where the Marriott Hotel caught his eye. He called a recess, went over to the hotel and got a tally on how many porn films the hotel made available in its rooms, and how many had been viewed. The number far surpassed what the video store owner rented. He was also able to discover how many people in Utah County subscribed to porn channels on cable. Again, the numbers soared over what the video outlet ever rented. When he reported all this, it took the jury 15 minutes to throw the case out. But here's the interesting part. It was found that the amount of porn consumed in Utah County per capita exceeds the national average. So hows that for life among the Mormons? Merlyn Clarke - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:10:22 -0500 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: [AML] Dickens (was: Real People) I'm interested in your comment about Charles Dickens. According to the 'class' I'm taking (on B&N.com), Dickens was extremely popular at the time of his writing. His work was serialized in newspapers and reached masses of people. His "Christmas Carol" is considered to have started-or vastly helped along, at any rate-a social revolution in England. Is it that he wasn't considered a "great" writer by the intellectual community? And I loved the Poisonwood Bible. Would it surprise you to know that many of my LDS friends won't touch it with a ten-foot pole? Tracie Laulusa - -----Original Message----- What about our western writer (Arizona), Barbara Kingsolver and POISONWOOD BIBLE? Willa Cather was good and popular at the same time. Toni Morrison? So was Charles Dickens (yet no one knew he was good until 100 years after he died). Cormac McCarthy, and Larry McMurtry? I know there are many others. John Gardner. But you are right about one thing, there is a lot of trash out there that gets sold and read! Marilyn Brown - ---------- > Who are the best american writers nowadays? What about > the classics? - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:20:07 -0200 From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Real People > thanks evebody for the tips about good american writers... I got about 25 names to try... About 1 year of reading... :-)) Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 05:10:11 -0800 (PST) From: Albert Wang Subject: Re: [AML] Real People (Reading List) Hi there, the best american writers living out there now are: 1) Thomas Pynchon 2) Don Delillo 3) Cormac McCarthy 4) Robert Coover 5) perhaps Carole Maso??? sincerely, Alfie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 03:28:31 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Orson Scott CARD Speech Monday morning, Nov 13, Orson Scott Card spoke at BYU on the topic of "Scripture and Faith." He discussed a number of ideas that fit well into many of our discussions on the list. Here is a summary of things he said: Reality (including history) is a collection of events that we know happened. But the minute we start assigning causality to real events, we are inventing history, because we can never know for sure why something happened. We can never even understand our own motives for why we do things: we are constantly revising why we did this or that in our minds. Fiction is a collection of fabricated events, but in fiction we can explore why things happen, why people do things. In fiction, motives are known and absolute: the author tells us what the character's motive is, or if he doesn't, we are meant to assume the most obvious motive under the circumstances. This is why stories are so treasured. It's the only time we know for sure why someone did something, and we're hungry for that. This is in fact the primary purpose for fiction: stories of why people do what they do. There are two basic kinds of scripture. One is sayings of a prophet, like the Doctrine and Covenants or the Koran. The kind we're interested in today is the other kind: collections of stories. Those that accept a particular set of scriptures as true usually want it to be final in both senses: the facts are correct and the motives are accurately known. In Christianity, these people tend to be the ones who consider the canon close, the ones who read the Bible literally. Mormons are not one of these people. They reject the finality of the scriptures because they believe in continuous revelation. The canon is always subject to revision. This is one reason the rest of Christianity despises us. Our open canon is both a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that we get to know more things than those who accept a closed canon. The curse is that what we know is never final. Contrary to what most members of the church think, this makes us not the church with all the answers, but the church that knows there are more questions to ask. But the revisions do not come from scholars, and those that attempt to set themselves up in this way we need to ignore. Only prophets have that perogative. In the meantime, it is our obligation to read and understand the scriptures ourselves. Many things in the scriptures become confusing when we try to take an absolutist or literalist approach. We need to remember that the scriptures are a filtering of truth through human beings. Much effort has been made to try to reconcile what Alma said about the hereafter or what Abinadi said about the nature of God, and what we understand today. It's all a waste of time. Alma simply didn't have as much information as we do, and tried to explain the afterlife as best he could with the information he had. The message Abinadi was called and inspired to deliver was repentance and forsaking the wicked ways of the king and the lawyers. Expounding on the nature of the Godhead was not his primary calling. In addition, his sermon was not written down personally. It was passed on to us by Alma: it was already filtered by a second human being before it ever got recorded. The story of Abraham and Sarah is probably fairly accurate: it's an old piece of writing that fits well into the culture of the time period it claims for itself. On the other hand, the story of Joseph is more of a "just-so" story about how storing grain started in Egypt. But Egyptians had been storing grain long before Joseph ever showed up. This doesn't mean that the story of Joseph is fabricated, but it does probably mean that our version is a much later version than the original which has been embellished upon. Because LDS scripture is not final, Mormons have a hunger for fiction as a means to explore answers we realize we don't have yet. Mormons are less in need of faith-affirming literature than other denominations. We want something more than piety--we want truth. Those who join the church in most cases are giving up their culture, and often friends or family, in exchange for the truth. The rest of the human race is just not as committed to truth as Mormons. The premier storytelling medium in America today is movies. Television to a lesser degree, but television doesn't have the prestige of movies. When's the last time you said you were transformed by a television show? Our culture today is greatly influenced by the movies and TV shows that have come before. "Philadelphia Story" is a beloved classic film, even by Mormons. Yet it is "deeply, deeply evil" [exact quote]. Today we live in the culture that that film promoted. In the film, the father gives a speech where he tells his daughter that she is responsible for his adultery because she was so cold and judgmental to him. Adultery is forgiven without repentance. Those in the film who uphold rules of morality are despised and depicted as buffoons. Those who make up their own rules are free spirits that we are encouraged to admire. We live in that world today. The movie did its work because we didn't see its true message. It was disguised behind good writing and charming characters played by beloved actors. The film seemed to have a positive Christian message: forgive others. But the strongest Christian message in the New Testament is repentance, and then forgiveness. When the rules that sustain civilization are broken, oddly enough, anarchy begins to reign. When rules are destroyed, rule-breakers begin to rule. And now we have Clinton as our leader. The best picture last year was "American Beauty." It has the same message as "Philadelphia Story," but makes no attempt to hide it this time. It has no redeeming social value. It is evil from beginning to end. This is how far we have come. You cannot tell a story without conveying a moral message. It comes through in every word you write. The least effective messages are those you try to tell. The minutue the reader notices a message, it stops influencing him. The message of "Philadelphia Story" is pervasive in our society these days. This is why I am much more interested in stories Mormons write to the world than to each other, although those are valuable too. In every word, without any attempt to do so, Mormons will convey their moral values to the world in the stories they tell. Discourse can be valuable, but when you're looking for a transformative experience emotionally, even spiritually, fiction does it better than discourse. This is why Christ's parables have survived centuries of interpretation with their messages basically intact, while his discourses have suffered all sorts of revisionism. Mormon artists have a hard time being noticed by the world if their art isn't dark. Who is the most prominent LDS filmmaker in the world today? Neil LaBute, because his work is dark. That's how Mormons can get noticed by the world. We in Mormon culture need to value our storytellers more. I knew all along that for me to have a strong following in the church, I would first have to be successful outside of the church, because we don't value our storytellers. Most of the people paying attention to our storytellers are doing so to find fault with them. One of the best LDS writers, Brian Evanson, was rejected by BYU, because even though he wrote moral literature, it was also dark. Some moron of a student complained and made a lot of trouble, and no one came to Brian's defense. He left BYU and is now working somewhere where he doesn't have to put up with that kind of garbage. He could transform the world with his talent, and we rejected him. Those of us who do value our storytellers need to speak up as loudly as the critics. If Brian had received support, he would probably still be at BYU. [Interesting bits and pieces in the Q&A session...] What is the status of the Ender's Game movie? It has no star-level role for adults, so it won't attract the biggest actors. It requires good performances from a number of young actors, but by the time the good young actors like Haley Joel Osment, and Jake Lloyd too now, become stars, they are too old to play Ender. So the child actors will all have to be unknowns. Ender's Game will be a "green screen" movie (i.e. lots of special effects), and the type of directors who can draw out good performances in young actors--or can even make a poor performance look good--are completely put off by that kind of movie: they won't even look at the script. They think of science fiction in terms of "Starship Trooper" type films. Still, Card is optimistic. It would just take one breakthrough: one studio who believes in it, or one great director, and everything else will fall into place. Meanwhile, Card is working on his own answer to the phenomenon started by "God's Army." His production company will be producing "My One and Only," a comedy about Mormon girls who are on a quest to find their "one and only" eternal companion. At first he wrote the script as a straight comedy. But with "God's Army" he came to realize that it needed to be more: it needed to address deeper issues within the framework of a comedy. "Matrix" is probably the best science fiction film ever made. The text is not the story. The text is the tool that helps the author and the reader collaborate together to create the story. The author cannot be responsible for interpretations (he called them "misreadings") by the reader. Science fiction magazine editors are desparate for good stories by new authors. They print a lot of mediocre stuff because they have to fill their magazines with something. If you haven't had success selling to an SF magazine, it's probably for one of two reasons: you haven't found "your editor" yet, or you just need to improve your writing. How well a writer handles 3rd person limited POV is the critical difference between those that get published and those that don't. Card has a new website called "The Ornery American" (www.ornery.com), which publishes essays by people who make no claim to being intellectuals or some kind of elite: just ordinary folk stubborn enough to believe that they are the people who made America great. He also plans on spinning off part of his Hatrack website (www.hatrack.com) into an online magazine. Hatrack Publishing was doing well when they had a distributor who knew what it was doing. That distributor went out of business when a disgruntled employee filed a lawsuit against it. Their current distributor doesn't know what it's doing, as can be evidenced by the fact that Hatrack books are not found in stores. Card still wants to keep the publishing company going, but the distribution problem needs to be resolved. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #194 ******************************