From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #197 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Thursday, November 16 2000 Volume 01 : Number 197 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:50:10 -0600 From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: [AML] Robert Hughes and Stupid People I just came across a delicious, funny statement by Robert Hughes, the art and cultural critic and historian. He says: "There are some works of art that stupid people will never understand because they weren't made for stupid people." Just had to share it. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:31:53 -0700 From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum >>> tjeffress@altavista.net 11/14/00 10:48AM >>> > >You must also consider Van Wagoner's decision to set _Dancing Naked_ >in Salt Lake City. If the setting were not important, he could as >easily have left Terry teaching school at some school in New England >where Terry got his masters and Ph.D. Instead, Van Wagoner moves >Terry to Salt Lake because Terry must battle not only his father's >homophobic heritage, but also the cultural heritage of Terry's Mormon >background. =20 Of course, it's also possible that Van Wagoner set the story in SLC and=20 included a few Mormon references because he is familiar with Mormon=20 culture and knows the names of streets and landmarks in SLC. Sometimes=20 a cigar is just a cigar, and sometime a city is just a city. A book has to = be=20 set somewhere--does setting it in SLC mean that the book is really = "about"=20 Mormonism, in the absence of any other evidence? MBA (Morgan B. Adair) - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:31:50 -0600 From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing At 10:38 AM 11/13/00, you wrote: >Oops, Margaret, I must have hit SEND too soon. I meant to point out a few >things as EXCEPTIONS, certainly including your novel, and I'm sorry my >final summary "cheese" statement seemed to apply to everything mentioned. >(I think I tried to start out being positive but then got caught up in the >other side.) I agree with you, we are making progress, but the overall >tenor of the Deseret Book mailing still put me off more than made me >proud---your novel and a handful of other things excepted. :-) I'm also hoping, Chris, that my book was also among that handful of exceptions, since you mentioned it as well! Linda Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:03:56 -0600 From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Linda ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ >Okay, Linda. Read you book. Enjoyed it. Now I'm horribly curious about which >chapter you mentioned writing first. I'm guessing it's after Alyssa leaves >home, but I'd like to know for sure. Could you clue in those of us who have >read it? > >Annette Lyon Thank you for asking, Annette! I don't mind at all. It's Chapter 37, "The Stranger," which is very near the end. After I wrote it I had to find out who Alyssa was, where she was going, and where she came from. I wrote the next few chapters before I went back and wrote the beginning. I'd be happy to answer any other questions you (or any other list members) may have about it, if I can. I'm not spilling the plot of the sequel, though. Grin! I've been away from e-mail lately, trying to catch up now, and I should be able to answer. I'm working on getting the sequel manuscript completed by December (so it can be published by next summer.) So I know Richard will holler at me if he sees me posting here too much :-), but I'm glad to talk about it. Linda ============ Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:37:01 -0500 From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Eric R. Samuelsen wrote: > I'd really like to see the research on this. I live in Utah County, and if > someone were to ask me where one should go to rent a pornographic movie, or > buy a pornographic magazine, I would have absolutely no idea what to tell > them. I quite literally don't have any idea where in town such items are > found. And I'm from a small town in Indiana, very Bible Belt and > conservative, and I probably would be able to tell someone where in that > town such materials were found. It's the internet and mail order, man. That's how it goes down in most places these days, particularly in middle America. It's also underground. You and I probably have no idea how to score a few hits of ecstacy or some roofies (rohypnol, the date rape drug), but they're real easy to get in any town in America. The interstates make it double easy. There are three in close proximity to Provo/Orem. Just because honest types don't know how to find this stuff doesn't mean that it's not available. Just to corroborate Thom's story with more hearsay, I have friends who are family counselors and therapists in Provo, and one who processes child abuse claims for Utah County. All have told me that I'd freak out if I knew the sheer numbers of grave problems, seriously grave problems. I have no trouble believing this because the scriptures have said it would go this way. I second what Thom said about being able as writers to write honestly about what's going on. All's not well in Zion, I'm afraid. Any writer who says that there is is lying. I don't think that this belief is a license to darkness. All is not well, but there is hope and there is repentance and there is goodness in people and there is beauty, but as 2 Nephi tells us, "it must needs be that there is an opposition in all things" or else "righteousness could not come to pass." If LDS writers don't recognize this opposition in their writing, we're cheating ourselves and our readers, and we're making it so that people who do recongize the oppositions will have nothing to do with our work. - -- Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:04:17 -0600 From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. (was: Writers' Conference Feedback) At 03:24 PM 11/13/00, you wrote: >I'm afraid I disagree strenuously with one comment Chris >Bigelow made in his assessment of the Writers' Conference. >Chris stated: "I don't think [Darius] Gray addressed a >useful topic." I'm afraid I also agree with Lee, although I wasn't in attendance. I'm sure I would have thoroughly enjoyed this presentation from the comments I've read about it, particularly because it addressed issues I am currently facing in my own writing. In defense of Chris, however, I've read a good chunk of his writing in our writers' group (Worldsmiths), and Chris does use integrated characters naturally, so maybe this is a non-issue for him. (? Just guessing here, Chris, trying to toss your gooey-centered post [your words] back in the oven a few minutes...) >Chris mentioned most if not all of these in his assessment. But >there is one critical, one crucial element he did not. > >Audience. > >And that English-language Mormon Literature audience has an >ever-growing segment of non-Wasatch Front, non-white >readership. Unless a writer is dead set on reaching an >ever-shrinking piece of the pie, it would behoove that >writer to learn how to reach them. At the very least learn >to not turn them away. (And these arguments are even >stronger for those wishing to write Mormon Literature for >the national market.) That's me, there--I'm one who wants to write for the national market. Yet here is my background: while I personally am 1/4 Hispanic myself, and grew up in California in a 50% Hispanic high school, my life experience has unfortunately had few Black people directly in it, due mainly to demographics. Black culture and history fascinates me. I'm honestly one of the least racially prejudiced people I know. But all told, I know two black families on an acquaintance level, and have occasional contact with maybe two others. I'm glad to live in Kansas City where, finally, the population is much more integrated than other places I've lived. And the one Black Mormon sister I did get to know passed away after only 18 months of Church membership. (She was wonderful, too, and I still miss her.) So my dilemma as a writer is, how do I create believable Black characters in my work, without sufficient personal experience? Where do I go to further my education, to learn the things life hasn't naturally given me the opportunity to know (yet?) I was about to write a post on this very topic when this thread started. I very much want to do this, and have tried. In my novel, _Prodigal Journey,_ two of the main supporting characters are Black. In the first drafts they weren't. But as I got to know them better, and see them in my mind's eye, I realized this was part of who they were, their identity. I was aware I couldn't just "use a crayon" and color them in, so to speak, by changing only their physical descriptions. There is so much depth of culture and ancestry and . . . everything, that these characters would know and have and feel, that would be different than my personal experience, that I don't know about them yet. I hope my portrayal is believable enough (and I did have help from my publisher to make the transition.) But it's an issue I'm still working on with the sequel. I don't know where to turn to glean more information and knowledge on what it is like, what it feels like, to be Black in America today (AND Mormon). I can imagine what it might mean in the future (since the series is set in the future,) but the future grows out of the present, and people in our day would be my characters' "ancestors." I need to know their history, so that their experience resonates truthfully with today's readers. I have a good imagination, but that doesn't make up for accurate information. I don't know how, or if I could approach the issue with the smattering of acquaintances I have. I would absolutely hate to offend anyone. How can I communicate my absolute respect while asking stupid questions? Things a child might ask--these are things I need to know. Details from how do you work with black hair, (you know, what types of products do you use, different from what I do) for instance, to the greater questions of what does your Black heritage mean to you. (And should you capitalize Black all the time, or not? is one way more PC than another, or more preferred? Oy.) I'm painfully reminded of the time I asked a kid in my 5th grade class how he cleaned his braces. I was just curious. I didn't have them. Braces are outside my personal range of experience. He said, "With a WaterPik, STUPID," and walked away in disgust. I'm just, well, not anxious to repeat that sort of experience on an adult level. Know what I mean? I think I managed okay in _Prodigal Journey,_ but anything I can still learn will make me more comfortable with what I'm trying to accomplish. Does anyone out there have any suggestions? Are there any black members out there who would be willing to talk to me? (Privately is fine, since it would be mostly off list-topic kinds of things.) I don't know, for example, which authors are best to read, which movies are best to watch, that can educate me. Any suggestions, anyone? Obviously I need to buy Margaret Young's novel and read that, which is on my list. But other than that. Who? Spike Lee? Sydney Poitier? _The Color Purple?_ . . . I figured out "Blazing Saddles" really wasn't useful at all :-) but "In the Heat of the Night" was a fine, fine movie. Who really is excellent at recreating the black experience? I'd also like to hear from anyone who's read my book on how I did with their characterization so far. And what exactly does the Genesis Project entail, Margaret? Do they have, say, a newsletter or anything? It sounds like something I should take hold of if I can. I'm not in Utah. Glad I'm not, to tell the truth, but I do miss out on some of these things, like this writers' conference. Well. Here goes. I've been meaning to send out a post that addresses this for a long time. Hope I haven't shoved my foot too deeply down my throat in admitting my ignorance. Linda ================== Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:46:45 -0800 From: "jana bouck remy" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life As I've read through the posts on this topic I found myself agreeing with the side that said that Mormons have fewer of the hidden problems that Thom referred to. But as I reflected on the experience of my own family, I would have to disagree with myself. In recalling just two generations of my family I can cite incidences of infidelity, abortion, physical, sexual & emotional abuse, divorce, pornography addiction, excommunication of a Stake Pres., pregnancy outside of and/or prior to wedlock, "living together" before marriage, a missonary being sent home early, Word of Wisdom problems, etc. And I have to say that I come from a very active LDS family where almost all the men served missions, most marriages were in the temple, there are numerous bishops, high councilors, RS, YW and Primary presidents. I think that these problems are common in all Mormon families. But what is uncommon about members of the church is the way they are able to overcome their pasts. I've seen those who were abused as children becoming exemplary parents, those who divorced re-marrying happily, those who got pregnant outside of marriage repenting and raising their children to be strong members of the church, those who had sexual experience before marriage repenting and marrying in the temple, etc. My Mo Lit connection...after thinking about my family I realized that I've got some good stories to tell :) Guess I should start writing!! Jana Remy - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:17:03 EST From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Kent Larsen : MN Mormon Books On National Bestseller Lists: Kent Larsen From: Kent Larsen To: Mormon News Subject: MN Mormon Books On National Bestseller Lists: Kent Larsen 14Nov00 A4 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:40:00 -0500 [From Mormon-News] Mormon Books On National Bestseller Lists NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- Its not unusual for books by or about Mormons to hit the bestseller lists in the U.S. Four such titles are currently on a number of bestseller lists, and several others have hit the lists during the past year. With this message, Mormon News is launching a periodic look at which titles by Mormons or about Mormons and their history are currently on various bestseller lists. Mormon News has covered several titles that hit the best seller lists during the past year, including President Gordon B. Hinckley's book, "Standing for Something," which is likely to be the best selling Mormon-related title of the year. But other titles have been on the list, including books by highly regarded LDS authors Clayton Christensen, Orson Scott Card, Anne Perry and Richard Paul Evans. The four current titles on bestseller lists are: Nothing Like it in the World, by Stephen Ambrose A history of the building of the transcontinental railroad in the US. Ambrose, a highly regarded historian, details the involvement of Mormons in building crucial portions of the road, including the driving of the "golden spike" in the heart of Mormon territory. Currently on the following bestseller lists: Wall Street Journal (Nov 10) Non-Fiction Hardcover #9 Publishers Weekly (Nov 8) Non-Fiction Hardcover #8 WordsWorth Independent Bookseller (Nov 7) Non-Fiction Hardcover #3 Barnes & Noble Top 100 #33 Knight Ridder Non-Fiction #6 BooksAMillion Non-Fiction Hardcover #12 Booksense (Nov 13) Non-Fiction Hardcover #1 New York Times (Nov 19) Non-Fiction Hardcover #6 USA Today (Nov 5) #56 See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684846098/mormonnews More about Stephen E. Ambrose's "Nothing Like It in the World: The Men Who Built the Transcontinental Railroad" at Amazon.com The Carousel, by Richard Paul Evans LDS author Evans writes about the love between a man and a woman, which is tested by the demands of family and work. Currently on the following bestseller lists: Publishers Weekly (Nov 8) Fiction Hardcover #13 Knight Ridder Fiction #10 BooksAMillion Fiction Hardcover #11 New York Times (Nov 19) Fiction Hardcover #11 USA Today (Nov 5) #70 See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684868911/mormonnews More about Richard Paul Evans' "The Carousel" at Amazon.com The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen R. Covey This ten-year-old personal management classic is still selling strongly. Currently on the following bestseller lists: Barnes & Noble Top 100 #59 USA Today (Nov 5) #107 See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671708635/mormonnews More about Stephen R. Covey's "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" at Amazon.com Expecting Adam, by Martha Nibley Beck A lapsed Mormon tells of her decision to have a downs-syndrome child in the face of opposition from her academic peers. Currently on the following bestseller lists: New York Times (Nov 19) Non-Fiction Paperback #34 See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812929802/mormonnews More about Martha Nibley Beck's "Expecting Adam: A True Story of Birth, Rebirth, and Everyday Magic" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:28:59 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Orson Scott CARD Speech Thom Duncan wrote: > "Amercian Beauty" > show us what's wrong with our society but doesn't lionize it, as Card seems > to be implying (or D. Mike inferred). I believe I reported accurately Card's intent. His exact quote was: "evil from beginning to end." Having never seen the film, I can't take a stand one way or the other on this. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 08:21:40 -0200 From: "Renato Rigo" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C04FA6.3EDE5EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Wilhelm Reich is a German psychologist that wrote several books about = sex (not porn books , of course)His most famous books are : The = Function of the Orgasm. and The Sexual Revolution. One of his principles is The Sexual Economic Principle. This principle = means that when we aren=B4t satisfied in a relationship with a person we = usually look for other person outside. But, with Mormons, this isn=B4t = possible because of the faith, then they try porn material to minimize = the problem or the avoid the reality. What do people prefer to buy pron = material instead of talking to their partners?=20 The people usually acts guided by the pain or personal satisfaction = (physhology teory). We look for things that will satisfy us or things = that won=B4t cause us any kind of pain. =20 When you have a wrong education about sex, talking about sex become a = painful act that makes people to prefer to buy porn material and avoid = the subject with the partner. God created us, and Gave us the possibily to Create other people = physically. The way He chose to us to do this was a wonderful way. But = the power of the man in destroying things transformed this way into a = dirty thing.... In the 60=B4s we have a sexual revolution that made people abandon all = the rules about sex. Imagine a can full of gas...=3D sexual repression. People were submited = along the time (19th century and beginning of 20th century) One day the can exploded because of the pressure of the gas and the gas = escaped fastly...=3D Sexual Revolution After escaping the gas have been reducing his velocity.. (Aids made the = people more careful about sex, etc) I think the future is : the sex will finally become a natural thing , = people will practice it with love and responsability...and we will talk = more about it freely. And I don=B4t think this is a especifical problems of Mormons... =20 Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C04FA6.3EDE5EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Wilhelm Reich is a German = psychologist that=20 wrote several books about sex (not porn books , of course)His most = famous books=20 are  : The Function of the Orgasm. and The Sexual = Revolution.
One of his=20 principles is The Sexual Economic Principle. This principle means that = when we=20 aren=B4t satisfied in a relationship with a person we usually look for = other=20 person outside. But, with Mormons, this isn=B4t possible because of the = faith,=20 then they try porn material to minimize the problem or the avoid the = reality.=20 What do people prefer to buy pron material instead of talking to = their=20 partners?
 
The people usually acts guided by the = pain=20 or personal satisfaction (physhology teory). We look for things = that will=20 satisfy us or things that won=B4t cause us any kind of=20 pain.  
When you have a wrong education = about sex,=20 talking about sex become a painful act that makes people to prefer = to buy=20 porn material and avoid the subject with the partner.
 
God created us, and Gave us the = possibily to Create=20 other people physically. The way He chose to us to do this was a = wonderful way.=20 But the power of the man in destroying things transformed this way into = a dirty=20 thing....
 
In the 60=B4s we have a sexual = revolution that made=20 people abandon all the rules about sex.
Imagine a can full of gas...=3D = sexual=20 repression. People were submited along the time (19th century and = beginning of=20 20th century)
One day the can exploded because of=20 the pressure of the gas and the gas escaped fastly...=3D Sexual=20 Revolution
After escaping the gas have been = reducing his=20 velocity.. (Aids made the people more careful about sex, = etc)
I think the future is : the sex = will finally=20 become a natural thing , people will practice it with love and=20 responsability...and we will talk more about it = freely.
 
And I don=B4t think this is a especifical problems of=20 Mormons...  
 
Renato Rigo
renatorigo@ig.com.br
- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C04FA6.3EDE5EE0-- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:17:03 EST From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Kent Larsen : MN Mountain Meadows Massacre Documentary Featured At Film Festival: Salt Lake Tribune From: Kent Larsen To: Mormon News Subject: MN Mountain Meadows Massacre Documentary Featured At Film Festival: Salt Lake Tribune 11Nov00 A4 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 10:30:00 -0400 [From Mormon-News] Mountain Meadows Massacre Documentary Featured At Film Festival ST GEORGE, UTAH -- A film festival held in St George, Utah Saturday featured a documentary on the Mountain Meadows Massacre made by a local film professor and relative of then LDS Church President Brigham Young. Eric Young, professor of film at Dixie College and a descendant of Brigham Young's brother, said he made the film with the aim of clearing Brigham Young of responsibility for the massacre, but was unable to find the evidence to do so. The documentary draws heavily from the classic 1950 book, "Mountain Meadows Massacre," by Mormon historian Juanita Brooks. Like the book, the film is sympathetic to John D. Lee, the Mormon pioneer convicted for the massacre and shot at the massacre's location, 20 years later. Lee is widely considered a scapegoat. Professor Young says he approached the subject after trying to date a descendant of Lee. "I went to pick her up for our first date," Young says, "and her mother told me that because of what [Brigham Young] did to her ancestor, John D. Lee, she wouldn't let me date her daughter." The documentary was one of 23 films shown as part of the festival. Source: Documentary on Massacre Headlines Eclipse Festival Salt Lake Tribune 11Nov00 A4 http://www.sltrib.com/11112000/utah/42358.htm By Lin Alder: Special to the Tribune See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0806123184/mormonnews More about Juanita Brooks' "The Mountain Meadows Massacre" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 12:52:37 -0200 From: "renatorigo" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life > Thom, Where did you get the numbers to have the conclusion that Utah has more porn materials and child sexual abuse than other states? What about questioning these numbers? Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:24:15 -0200 From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re:[AML] Robert Hughes and Stupid People Dallas Robbins > He says: "There are some works of art that stupid people will never understand because they weren't made for stupid people." Just had to share it. What=B4s the definition of a stupid person? Who=B4s stupid? The person who made some works of art that isn=B4t for all (the commom public) or the people who didn=B4t understand the "dificult" art ?????????? Think about this, man !!!!!!!!! Renato Rigo - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:01:41 -0700 From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Thom Duncan wrote: >Let's not shoot the messenger, just because we don't like the news or want >to believe it. I would never advocate shooting anyone, least of all Thom (though if the messenger must die, it would be better to use a non-gun method so as not to annoy the gun lobby ;-) ). I do think it's fair to question the source and validity of the information, though. Anecdotal evidence is always questionable, as are many larger studies. As with everything else in this age of easy dissemination of information, the consumer has a right to ask what's in the package, and where it came from. I know, for example, that it's illegal to rent an X-rated video from a general video rental store in Utah (yes, there was a time in my life when I tried). You can't buy an explicit men's magazine such as Playboy, Penthouse, Oui, Gallery, or Gent in Utah County, though they are readily available in Salt Lake County. You can't legally subscribe to a satellite porn channel such as XXXtacy, True Blue, or Eurotica in Utah, though the Playboy Channel is available. There's an arbitrary line drawn between the alleged "hard R" and a regular X rating. How that line is drawn, or where is a mystery to me. Then again, Utah is one of the most Internet-connected places in the US. More people have computers, and more people have Internet access here than nearly anywhere else in the country. It's very easy to get explicit pictures, video, and fiction off the Internet--stuff that's a great deal raunchier than anything you could buy in a magazine. I tend to question that Utahns use more porn per capita than any other state; with the exception of the Internet, it's just not easily available. But I also suspect that those Utahns who do seek porn do so from a much more defiant point of view than in other places. There is a tremendous social (and legal) stigma here, and that forces consumers of porn to make an explicit choice to go against the push of society--to seek porn requires them to reject the mindset of the broader society. That was one of the interesting things I noticed while living in Germany. There was a much more casual attitude toward the explicit there, and as a result, there tended to be less of a sense of danger in consuming it--it was just another lifestyle choice like coffee, tea, or milk, or hockey vs. ice skating. I think it's very possible--even likely--that Utah porn users are more hard core; I think the social conditions almost demand it. If that means that those individuals jump more enthusiastically into it and amass a greater amount of it than happens elsewhere, I can accept that (though I'd still like to see the primary data and validate the data's source). I think the same pressure applies to people who act out on their sexual imagination. Having been forced to overcome such a great social resistance, they then may very well dive into the deep end of the pool when they do decide to act (sort of the way SLOC did with bribery; having decided to do it, they then proceeded with reckless abandon--and poor technique). And the point is well taken that many of these people are either Mormons, or are shaped by the pressures and influences of Mormon culture. I see no reason not to tell their stories if the market can support it or the author is willing. But I still think you have a long row to hoe if you want me to believe that every Mormon is a closet pedophile and every bishop is boffing the Relief Society president. That some are and do is not a question; of course it happens. But to say that only the stories that depict such things are truly "real" or truly representative of the culture is a stretch that I can't follow. And yet... Literature has a long history of telling the stories of people at the edges of society. Heaven knows, I don't think Ahab was the Everyman of 1850s America, or even an average representation of the subclass of whaling boat captains; he was slightly excessive by all standards of the time. But it's those very eccentricities that make him just distant enough for the author to expose (and exaggerate) real human tendencies, without attacking any individual reader. That distance allows for more thorough investigation. I get bothered when I hear that the only true stories are those of the edge. Yes, I believe that they are often more true in concept than other stories, but I don't accept that they're all more true in detail. And while I can accept the author's statement that some people (who may be Mormons) do feel the way that characters in a book do, I do not accept that any one voice speaks the mind of the whole community. (No, not even the prophet, who speaks the law of the community, but not the mind of it.) And I still don't think that the question "should a Mormon write that?" is an especially useful question. Each of us must ask "should *I* write that?" And each of us has to decide where our esthetic lines are drawn, and what subject matters or details are out of bounds. Authors have opinions and readers have opinions. Each should allow the other their thoughts, and neither is justified in saying, "Well, *real* Mormons only believe the way I say they do." In that case, both are wrong together, because Mormons--like all humans--are a diverse and wonderful people. They make desperate mistakes, commit gross arrogances, build wonderful beauty, and seek to prosper as best they can. And they speak their thoughts is variety of voices and by a multitude of metaphors. Scott Parkin - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 08:40:47 -0700 From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life A couple of short responses: Cathy Gileadi Wilson writes: >Thomas More in _The Care of the Soul_ suggests that sexuality >is basic to our human nature, and if we deny that, it will >find a way for expression. Thomas More, the Catholic saint, or Thomas Moore, the former Catholic monk? Cathy continues: >So those many Mormons who aren't married might find their way >through pornography. Or they might not. Did Mr. Moore use pornography when he was a Catholic monk? Thom Duncan writes: >It's rather a given to anyone who has made a study of human >behavior that anything that can be imagined has been done by >someone, somewhere. I can certainly see why such a principle would be attractive to authors, because it says everything you write is real. It does tend to undercut criticism of the unrealistic nature of goody-goody Mormon literature, because it presumably applies equally well to it. And isn't the principle self-defeating? I can imagine students of behavior accepting as given a principle that is ridiculous. Has this thing that I've imagined been done? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:25:48 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] American Beauty (was: Orson Scott CARD Speech) Thom Duncan, on American Beauty >Only we see the flip side, the results of going against >traditional family values. The characters end up suffering for their >mistakes, as our religion tells us will happen to all unrepentant = >people. I'd take this a step further. The sins of the characters in American = Beauty are all shown to be based on illusion, or even delusion. The = characters are all pose and pretense, and act (do acts of evil) as a = result of pose and pretense. The sexually promiscuous teenager turns out = to be a virgin, and is finally revealed as a lonely, frightened little = girl who really despises herself. And when Kevin Spacey's character = finally sees her for who she is, without the romantic fantasies he's = projected on to her, his evil desires (and they are absolutely evil, no = question about it) disappear. And they . . . chat. About his daughter, = who it turns out, he really does love, genuinely and truly. His character = has utterly wrecked his life and the life of his family, and the feeling = he's left with is nothing less than an overpowering, all encompassing = sadness. =20 I thought American Beauty was a bit overrated. The stylization of it, the = hard edged look of it, was at odds a bit with what it finally turned out = to about: a kind of goofy spirituality. A consequenceless spirituality, I = think. I thought the manically rigid and abusive military father next = door was a particularly distasteful cliche, and I didn't think Annette = Bening's character was particularly inhabited. I mean, nobody's that = surface-conscious, I don't think. And the wise-beyond-his-years drug = dealer teenager character was someone I just didn't buy for a second. I = loved the idea that we can find beauty in a piece of trash blowing in the = wind, and I was moved by the ending, though it was a bit nutty, still I'm = a sucker for nutty New Age movies. (I love, and will always love Field of = Dreams, for example). I thought AB was an interesting film, in some ways = a powerful film, generally well acted and with some nice moments. The = best film of the year? No way. Not a chance. The Straight Story blew it = off the screen. Even a fairly conventional thriller like Sixth Sense did = a much better job of doing what it was trying to do than AB. So the Oscar went to a not-so-great film, an overrated film that nonetheles= s had some nice things going for it and was pretty well acted. And the = Academy ignored some much better, much better acted films. There have = been worse travesties. (Shakespeare in Love, anyone? Titanic? The Sound = of Freaking Music?) But to say AB's an utterly immoral movie, or a movie = without social value, 'evil from the beginning to the end?' Balderdash. Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #197 ******************************