From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #234 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Thursday, January 18 2001 Volume 01 : Number 234 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:27:29 -0500 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes It's interesting that I heard something very similar on Rush Limbaugh the other day-and I don't listen to him very often, so it's a bit of a coincidence. From memory the gist was that in universities, especially Ivy League, there is a very liberal agenda. Students are practically brainwashed with it. Conservatism, capitalism, and being religious are not just frowned upon but persecuted. He went on at some length about the "religious left". Quite interesting in a Rush Limbaugh kind of way. But I'm not sure that I agree that BYU has more freedom. They are very selective about who they hire and who they admit in the first place. So the percentage of students or faculty that are going to push edges is not as high as it would be if they let just anyone attend. There is a very strict honor code-an assumption of basic moral values. Sometimes I think we *do* get a little too paranoid about what is and isn't acceptable. 'We' meaning members of the church. Not that I want to see a bunch of what I would consider sleaze. But who am I to decide that for someone else? Ideally I think you are right. The gospel should be freeing, not controlling. It ties into some things I've been thinking about a lot lately. I won't go into it all because it's already pages in my journal. But, in summary, I think that, as a church-not the institute itself, but the members who are part of it-we are too exclusive. We do not welcome everyone into our midst with open arms and nurture their tiny seeds of faith. I find that most members want other members, and investigators, to be showing forth some really great fruits before they consider them worthy of the honor of even looking into the kingdom. I don't always agree with what Eric, Thom, D. Michael, or some of the other frequent posters say. But I am so grateful for all their comments. They make me think, ponder, consider, and search. Tracie Laulusa - -----Original Message----- I've heard about how restrictive BYU is for years, and I'm sick of it. The reality is that, barring anything blatantly anti-GA or anti-LDS, you can pretty much discuss anything under the sun, conservative and liberal. That is not the case elsewhere. It may sound ironic at first, but BYU has MORE academic freedom than most other places. (Okay, I'm ducking for the backlash.) Annette Lyon - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:53:57 -0600 From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue >One thing I've noticed in the 30 years I've been in the Church is a >particular voice pattern when they read Scriptures. The voice starts low, >then continues rising until it drops on the last syllable of the line. On >the next line, the pattern starts again. It's a bit mind-numbing, but for >all I know, it may be common to many people not accustomed to the concept >of >trying to read aloud with feeling. How funny--I wondered if I was the only one who noticed that. It happens when missionaries learn other languages, too--they may speak more or less normally in running conversation, but whenever they start to read scripture or say something of Spiritual Significance, you know because of the strange intonation pattern that happens. I've heard it on a mission in Chile and in two different extended periods of living in Germany. Rose _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:23:17 -0600 From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Wanted: Cinderella's Father For some reason, this struck my funnybone. I must be aging. I stumbled into this online at last Friday's (January 12, 2001) Deseret News. Theater editor Ivan Lincoln compiles an Auditions column, in which he writes, "THE SCERA CENTER in Orem has already started rehearsals for "Into the Woods," but a 50-year-old (or thereabouts) man is still needed to play Cinderella's father." Thinking (or more accurately not thinking) this might be my ticket to fame and fortune, my brain quickly restarted when the commute factor kicked in (I'm several states away). I guess 50-year-old men who want to play Cinderella's father are hard to come by. So here's a big chance for somebody else who would like to enjoy a real mid-life (or thereabouts) crisis. And in the off-chance there really is someone out there, Ivan Lincoln continues, "Those interested in auditioning can call the SCERA at 225-2560 or send an e-mail to mskate@usa.net." Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:02:38 -0800 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:42:46 -0700 Annette Lyon writes: > I keep hearing about the lack of "academic freedom" at BYU. The reality, > in my opinion, couldn't be further from the truth. At most universities > students are expected to accept or embrace highly liberal ideas. > Conservative ideas, religion, etc. cannot even be discussed, or the > student/professor/whoever is lashed out at. I have heard this sentiment several times on AML-List, and I keep wanting to ask, "What liberal university did you go to?" I went to a very liberal (votever dot meinz) university in the least-churched city in the country (i.e., Seattle has the fewest churches per capita of any major American city), and noone challenged me on my religious attitudes or tried to force me to accept highly liberal ideas. Indeed, the day we discussed my story "The Covenant Breaker" in David Bosworth's class I got a reaction I would hardly have expected at a secular university. There's a scene where a returned missionary meets at church a boy he's molested a couple of days before. "Oh, God," he says. The boy answers, "No, it's just me, Brendan." David's comment to the class was, "Sometimes it's nice to be reminded that when we say things like that we _are_ taking the Lord's name in vain." That was a very diverse class. We had an observant Jew who announced she wouldn't be in class one day because of Yom Kippur (falls in October, right?), a practicing Methodist, a New Mexican who wrote a Christmas miracle story that I didn't like the first time I read it because I was reading it askew, but it keeps haunting me, so I know it's a good piece--wish I could get ahold of her. (Anyone heard of Pamela Seltzer?) We also had a high school teacher from Alaska who I think was an atheist but was very taken with Inuit spirituality, and a Jack London existentialist (who didn't much like me, perhaps because we both have strong and strongly contrasting world views and try to reflect the whole of our views in everything we write, and another atheist (?) who later teamed up with the Seattle 5th ward primary president's inactive husband to write a hard-boiled detective novel. And this very diverse group probably liked the story better than a Mormon audience would have, even though that audience would have felt more resonance in the opening passage describing a baby blessing. And it's not just the faculty who were respectful of people's rights to express their opinions. The UW Daily (Rag) had a faculty advisor who let them publish whatever they wanted--didn't think his role was censor, and some of the letters to the editor were close to libelous. But they published a lot of letters from conservative students, one who always signed "In His Name." There was also an active conservative student movement on campus. A much wider divergence of opinion than I saw at BYU, and yet it reminded me of BYU in one way. The Daily Universe was always running letters from students who would say, "So-and-so, I don't know how anyone with a testimony could say such-and-such." The Daily ran letters like, "So and so you blankety-blank blanker-blanking blank of a blank (I'll leave you to fill in the blanks) you really need help for saying that, and I hope you get the blankety blank help you get (whatever you fill the blanks in with will be mild) you blankety blanker." That is, students (much more than professors) at both universities would try to disenfranchise people who disagreed with them, but I had good experiences both places, though I suspect my very LDS fiction got a better hearing at the secular university than it would have at the sacred. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:04:14 -0700 From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue >On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 12:28:40PM -0800, plus two wrote: >> Does anyone have any theories or observations of how >> 'contemporary' Mormons speak? What do they speak >> about? Do they exhibit any linguistic patterns that >> mark them as Mormon? In prayer and testimony meeting, Mormons are always thanking God for "the opportunity..." To be here, to worship, to have the gospel, for our callings, etc. I wonder if this has to do with our concept of free agency--we don't thank God for making us Mormon or good or smart or holy, but for giving us that opportunity. But aside from the Mormon speech patterns, which I consider distinct from Utah speech patterns, I believe most of the speech comes from the local culture where Mormons reside. Barry Monroe speaks mostly like a Californian, but with Mormon and German nouns thrown it. And as most missionaries would agree, no self-respecting California dude would ever say "flip." Only male missionaries from the Intermountain region would say the f-word. My working hypothesis is to use local culture and throw in a few Mormon words and phrases. And I am grateful for the opportunity to share my thoughts... Alan Mitchell - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:11:49 -0700 From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Scott Parkin: - --- I wish BYU was open to more divergent approaches, but I accept that they're not. Fortunately, other universities exist where I can study those things that BYU will not teach. I have the freedom to pick and choose. - --- I tend to agree with such moderate expression of interest. Personally I rather enjoy most "R" media. Probably most BYU students and staff are responsible enough to use such material without significant risk to any of them. Here's the rub, though--it is the escalation of hyperbole from the liberals. The more protests, the more antagonistic the rhetoric from dissidents and naysayers, the more polarization between groups that might otherwise settle their petty differences in a reasonable fashion. When extreme voices cry out so shrilly that their freedom is being infringed, making a mountain out of a molehill, it becomes a self-fulfulling prophecy. BYU administrators are forced to take _some_ kind of action on matters they might have been inclined to ignore, had it not been thrust in their faces. I consider this and all similar forms of mutual antagonism to be nothing less than ironic just rewards. - --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:06:35 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History (was: Year in Review) Margaret Young wrote: > He asked the rhetorical question, "Do we really need to review some aspects > of our history?" I find that troubling. I find it especially troubling > today, since I just got a note from a friend announcing that she is > leaving the Church. The historical problems AND THE COVER-UPS just got > too much for her. Maybe the "whitewashed" history was necessary for a while for a fledgling religion--maybe--but it's coming back to haunt us now. We could get away with it as a small, eccentric sect that no one paid much attention to, but now that we are receiving the recognition and acclaim we've craved all these years, along with that comes the detailed scrutiny of our history. Now the "whitewashed" version isn't holding up, and people like Margaret's friends are losing their testimony of the entire Gospel because of the credibility gap caused by our reworked history. Perhaps the truism "Honesty is the best policy" should have been more carefully considered all those years. We teach that our leaders, even our prophets, are not perfect. Yet we still seem to need them to be _almost_ perfect, or somehow they're not called of God. Cute little foibles are okay to make them more endearing, but big whoppers of mistakes are frightening. But why? Noah got drunk and lay about naked. Jacob stole his brother's birthright by subterfuge instead of trusting that God would fulfill his promise in due time. Moses took credit for a miracle of God and was denied entrance into the promised land. Eli couldn't fulfill his responsibilities as a father and God had to destroy his sons. David committed adultery and murder. Peter denied Christ three times. Paul spoke against marriage, which is a requirement for exaltation. Joseph Smith lost 100+ pages of sacred scripture because he refused to accept God's instructions. Brigham Young taught questionable doctrine that has been repudiated by subsequent prophets. These are not little foibles. Prophets have a long history of making huge mistakes. Trying to pretend the mistakes don't exist does what any disingenuousness does: destroys one's credibility. So my response to your plea... > Help me out here. The > subject of what we should or should not be writing, being Mormons, is a > frequent topic of discussion. Can we have a little more of it? I'm > also extremely interested in how you individually have dealt with the > Church's historical problems and held onto your testimonies, and how > you've helped others through their own problems. ...is, we should write about whatever we want, as long as we're honest with the truth. Isn't honesty supposed to be a basic virtue of the Gospel? Why doesn't it seem to be a valued virtue in the Gospel's literature? I've held onto my testimony by repudiating the unworkable folk doctrine that our leaders need to be "almost perfect." Rather than discouraging me, this reassures me. Maybe I have a better chance at exaltation than I thought. Maybe Christ's atonement really does make up for our human weaknesses, as long as we're trying to make progress in the right direction. Whether this helps anyone else with their testimony, I have no idea. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:26:25 -0800 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History (was: Year in Review) On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:18:06 -0700 Margaret Young writes: > He asked the rhetorical question, "Do we really need to review some > aspects of our history?" Yes, I suppose we do, not to embarrass our culture or hate ourselves, but to understand and to testify--we can choose how we interpret our personal and institutional and cultural tragedies and sufferings and weaknesses and strengths. > I find that troubling. I find it especially troubling today, since I just got > a note from a friend announcing that she is leaving the Church. The > historical problems AND THE COVER-UPS just got too much for her. I am so sad. People on the edges of the Church and culture are often my subjects though I don't know they would particularly like what I write about. I feel great empathy for people on the edges. (Though I doubt I practice much empathy.) > Notice that I am linking this subject to the list via my own work and > my twin's (Marilyn Brown's). Help me out here. The subject of what > we should or should not be writing, being Mormons, is a frequent > topic of discussion. Can we have a little more of it? I have a whole group of e-mails I started working on over the Christmas hiatus (love Robert Benchley's classic, "Filling that Hiatus," I always wondered as a boy what a hy-a-toose was. Love the part where he eats the doily--or was that a different essay?) about what we should write about. > I'm also extremely interested in how you individually have dealt with > the Church's historical problems and held onto your testimonies, and > how you've helped others through their own problems. One of the Swearing Elders, McMurrin, I think (though it could be Grandpa's cousin Obert Tanner) has an essay called, "Is Religion the Denial of History." I haven't read it yet, but I imagine we all hope that repentance is the denial of history "I the Lord will remember it no more." And if true religion is true repentance or true forgiveness, maybe the sins of the past can mean something different than a cause to leave. I think one big help for me was when Armand Mauss gave his "Angel and the Beehive" talk at BYU and said that the only people anti-Mormon writing can affect is people who think about religion in the same way as the anti-Mormon writers. Another thing that helped a great deal was my growing understanding that all interpretation is choice. Another thing that helped me was a comment Owen Clark (yes, part of the clan, different branch) made one day. Fine gospel doctrine teacher in the ward next door (Seattle 3rd) and I used to linger in the RS room after EQ (It was too small for the RS Sisters--love those acorn-names) and talk to him as the 3rd ward high priests filed in (last I heard he had been called as President of the Aaronic Priesthood in that ward). "What are you writing, Owen?" He told me that he had begun noticing that the institutional behavior of the post-manifesto church (100 years) was strikingly like the behavior of people he treated for post-traumatic stress. ("Lucy, you need to see a puh-see-a-key-a-trist." Every time I work on an assembly line I find myself singing, "Lucy in the ca-andy fac-tory, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum.") "The Church was raped by the federal government," he says. I think about that a lot, and compare it to the number of posts I've written about my own wounds and never sent. I find Jan Shipps' writings helpful. > If it gets too personal (or if Jonathan feels it's off-topic), please e-mail me > individually. I need to hear from you SOON. > > [Margaret Young] Sorry for the pitiful offering. That capitalized SOON and the late hour compels me to send this off with less deliberation than I might otherwise. Maybe more later. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:58:14 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue I would suggest that the way to write Mormon dialogue is to spend some = time really listening to Mormons dialogueing. I absolutely love to stand = in a long line, for example, the longer the better. Perfect eavesdropping = time. Most of the time, when I eavesdrop, it's in circumstances where the = eavesdropees might catch me. And I'm a big ugly guy--appallingly = conspicuous. So lines are good. I'm writing this early in the morning, and for health's sake, I've been = parking as far from my office as reasonably possible. So here are the = snippets of conversation I overheard at BYU, this morning, while walking = to work. A: So, like, he calls me, right, and I'm all, 'hey, it's good to talk to = you,' and I'm, like, thinking, 'who are you?' B: Totally. I hate that. A: So anyway. . . . A (A different A, obviously): No, see, no, deathbed repentance is-- B: Okay, not like the Catholics, but still--. A: Completely . . . there's this verse in I think Alma--. A: Revolver, it's maybe the fifth best Beatles album--. B: No, see, people who have really studied this think it's the transitional= - --. A: Sgt. Peppers is-- B: It's--. A: See, that's the most important album of-- A: It's the most boring class in the history of. . . . That's one morning, one walk. Now, the Beatles album arguers, I followed = a bit, but they saw me and lowered their voices. The rest of them I heard = just by listening to people. =20 IMHO, that's how you learn how to write dialogue. Reading helps some. = Listening helps more. Listen to people. Be nosy. And if you have a = choice of the long line at the grocery store, or the shorter line, take = the longer one. People talk about the most interesting things in grocery = stores. =20 Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #234 ******************************