From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #249 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Tuesday, February 6 2001 Volume 01 : Number 249 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:27:24 -0800 (PST) From: plus two Subject: Re: [AML] Influence of Mormon Literary Tradition Our moderator wrote: Those of > us who have been around a while on AML-List may > recognize the importance of > new voices on the List to ask new questions, or to > ask old questions in new > ways, and get the conversation going again. Thanks. I've been lurking for almost four years now, so I figure it's my time to contribute. And now I have the time----a 2 1/2 hour commute on public transportation [that's total not one way. I'm not that crazy.] that gives me time on my feet to stand and think. It's hard to read when your packed into a BART train. I just hope what I bring up does seem new in some way because I know that there can be a certain fatigue that comes with some of the issues surrounding Mormon literature, especially on the part of those list members who may have been participating for a while. So I don't mind if people don't want to or don't have the time to discuss what I bring up. Now to give an example of the grafting/own tradition thing that I've been thinking about: I thought that I would grow out of Kafka, but I haven't. I no longer listen to gothic/industrial music that often or write angst-ridden poems, but Kafka continues to haunt. Especially the aphorisms, the parables and paradoxes. I have been of the opinion for awhile that the Mormon tradition could be a fertile one to mine for inspiration in writing this type of literature. [That's why I was delighted to find in the Irreantum fiction guidelines a specific solicitation for parables.] The question is what am I accountable for when it comes to my knowledge of literary history and Mormon tradition? Yes, I know that at some level you have to 'just write' and that inspiration plays a large role in the creative act, but the wellspring of that act is reading. Now, of course, when it comes to parables, you start with the four gospels. But here's the thing---I don't think its possible to directly imitate the parables that Christ relates in the gospels. The reason that they work is not just that he uses the materials of everyday life to illustrate gospel principles, it's also that the gospel principles he relates come from him; they're prophetic; they have a profundity behind them that comes from the mind of the master. Any attempts I've encountered that seek to imitate his type of parable always fail (aren't there some in Esp. for Mormons?). And I think that the reason they fail is that the elements of the analogy are too didactically thought out; they point too directly to the point being made. Kafka almost errs in the other direction. His parabolic language demands interpretation; it pushes the analogy, the imagery to the point that no interpretation can be claimed definitive. [Although in my opinion the 'indeterminacy' of Kafka's work is somewhat exaggerated by some critics.] But while you can't quite get what he's getting at, the very act of thinking about it is (at least for me) rewarding---it leads to thinking about how truth and knowledge and wisdom and ritual works. An example from _The Great Wall of China: Stories and Reflections_: "No. 17 Leopards break into the temple and drink the sacrificial chalices dry; this occurs repearedly, again and again: finally it can be reckoned beforehand and becomes a part of the ceremony." So if Kafka is one extreme (albeit a productive one) and the 'obvious' parable is another one, where does it leave the Mormon parable writer? I don't know for sure. But I do know that a lot of the wilder imagery of the Doctrine and Covenants starts me thinking in some of the same ways that Kafka's aphorisms do. I also think, and now I'm getting back to the Mormon literary tradition, Orson F. Whitney's pronouncement in his epic poem _Love and the Light: An Idyl of the Westland_ is instructive, if at the same time somewhat overwrought: "Were the poet unprophetic,/Or the prophet unpoetic,/Each were wanting in equipment/For the mission laid upon him." In my words, there's something about the interplay between the ideas, the doctrines of the gospel and the poetic image that can push our understanding forward. This is all somewhat premature since I haven't actually made any serious stabs at this mode of writing. But it's what's been percolating in my mind. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:28:12 -0700 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Jerry Johnston on Editing (Deseret News) This is SUCH a good essay! It is part and parcel of the literary process! Boiling things down into the syrup that gives pleasure! Oh, how often could I take the loose novels that come into our bins at Cedar Fort and boil them down into something worthy! Selecting, boiling and shaping are the keys! I am particularly conscious of exactly what Jerry talks about because it is the activity of my address for AML which just may be laughed off the fact of the Westminster cafeteria. It is the BOILING. It is the SELECTION (of scenes, of bits of dialogue--asking ourselves, what is important) and it is the SHAPING(which item comes first, etc.) that profoundly effects the quality of what we are writing! (And then of course we have to write an adequate sentence.) I am glad you wrote this, Jerry. And that Andrew Hall was wise enough to give it to those of us who don't take the Deseret News. Marilyn Brown - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:23:43 -0700 From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Historical Fiction (BYU Universe) On Fri, 02 Feb 2001 13:04:52 -0600 "Rose Green" writes: > So, I agree...on one end, anyway. Actually, we agree on both ends. You said: > Depends on what the facts are that you are changing. A little > fiddling here and there may make a better story, but I just > don't think there's any excuse for shoddy research. Exactly. Same thing goes for science fiction. Generally, the reader of SF expects that there will be things about the science of the story that will be "wrong." In other words, speculative, or undoable at-this-time, or even completely impossible though reasonable within this particular milieu. The same should be expected in historical FICTION. When a writer isn't getting it "right," he better know that he's getting it "wrong" and have a darn good reason for it too. I don't expect to get a history lesson from historical novels any more than I expect to get a science lesson from SF novels. At the same time, however, if the history or science of a novel intrigues me enough, I just may go out and find out what really is true and what ain't. Vallerie Holladay said: > It's a lot easier to educate the writer, who has a > greater personal interest in learning what's real > and a recognition of the need to know why it > matters, as well as a desire to learn how it can > be done well. Some people, unfortunately, but > understandably, have other things on their mind. And so we run into the question of who you WANT your audience to be. I believe if you write to the folks who have other things on their minds and "can't be bothered" then you wind up with pedestrian prose that is flat and has a serious lack of intellectual or emotional or spiritual variety and is unbelievable to those who -- while they have other things to think about with their minds -- also think about the novel they're reading when they're reading it. And I must confess that one of my goals as a writer is to give my audience something to think about even when they're NOT reading my book. I want my audience to be infected with thoughts about my play/poem/song/story/painting/dance/etc. when they are trying to have other things on their mind. Yes, I want to be a virus. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" - -------------------------------------------------------- "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close > > Rose Green > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:34:56 -0700 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Brady Udall Query Sharlee wrote the Kate Udall is about as Mormon as you can get! Hooray! I'm glad to hear it! And she's your cousin! How great! Brady is a wonderful fellow. Clean cut and very much a gentleman. All I know is that Brady's writing isn't really what I would call "MORMON" and good for him, I guess, because if it was "MORMON" it wouldn't have attracted Carol Houck Smith in a thousand years. Marilyn Brown - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 10:40:20 -0700 From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Handling Agents I love the way James Allen and Davis Bitton introduce one of their books on Mormonism, frankly admitting that they are believing Mormons and that their work will be coming through that filter. Nonetheless, they are very bold in discussing controversy and even revealing skeletons in closets. On the other hand, Stegner opens his book with an admission that he does NOT believe Mormonism, but finds it fascinating and the pioneers remarkable. He also maintains objectivity and presents a compelling picture of the Mormon migration--personality flaws in various leaders freely mentioned, but not filtered through an anti-Mormon agenda. [Margaret Young] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 06:18:09 -0700 From: "mcnandon" Subject: [AML] Alan MITCHELL, _Angel of the Danube_ My husband and I just finished reading Angel of the Danube_ and found it a delightful read. We visited Austria just two years ago and enjoyed the incorporation of the Austrian folklore. I must be honest, however and admit that I didn't like the ending. I felt that the folklore analogy seemed contrived and a bit of an encumbrance at that point. It also seemed unrealistic to have her step off the plane wearing a traditional Himmelsruhe Dirndle and a colored apron. Am I off on this, or have you had other such comments? Nan McCulloch - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:30:05 -0700 From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) I commented to another list member at the performance I attended that I'd really like to read it. It's very richly layered. - -- Scott Tarbet > Linda asked: > > >Can I read it? > > I'd be happy to make this available on the List, if no one > objects. Or I could just email it to Linda, if you don't mind a > hundred page file showing up. What do y'all think? > > Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:40:16 -0700 From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] Historical Fiction (BYU Universe) D. Michael wrote: Wouldn't it be better to educate the audience that fiction, after all, is fiction, and they shouldn't be getting their history lessons from fiction? Sure, in an ideal world. But that isn't going to happen. Not only are people not reading history books hardly at all anymore, but you'd be surprised at how many people believe everything they see/read/hear in a historical fiction piece, and never do any follow-up. I think artists have some responsibility to get it at least remotely right, considering at least part of their audience will believe every word as fact. (I've heard of people trying to look up the Steeds' geneological records, for crying out loud.) Even though I am not one of those blind readers, I've even found myself repeating something I "know" about history, then having to stop and think where I learned it from, whether it was an accurate source or whether it was from a piece of art. Historic art tends to color your view of history, whether or not you are aware of it at the time. Of course, we've been through variations of othis discussion before, and I don't want to be redundant. I tend to not sympathize totally with either side of the issue(fiction is fiction vs. be true at all costs to history). There must be a balance. Of course, "balance" is very difficult to define. Annette Lyon - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:46:11 -0600 From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: [AML] New Email List LDS Alternative Do you read Sunstone, Dialogue, Exponent II, Student Review, Irreantum, Journal of Mormon History, and other LDS/Mormon alternative periodicals, with no one to discuss your reading with? I invite you to join a new email list LDS Alternative. The list is for those who would like to discuss the world of LDS alternative periodicals and books, whether you are a reader, editor, or contributor. This list will encompass discussion primarily about content in such periodicals and books; but will also include discussion on upcoming symposiums and conferences, research requests, the culture of the LDS intellectual community, and it's impact on the LDS church and membership. All differing and diverse ideas and thoughts are welcome, but we ask you write and speak with respect and charity. Off-topic threads are discouraged, and will be asked to be taken somewhere else. We ask all posts to be related to the stated purpose above. Mean spirited attacks, such as church or intellectual bashing, are discouraged, and will not be tolerated. All are encouraged to participate. To join follow this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LDS_Alternative/ Sincerely, Dallas Robbins Moderator, LDS Alternative cloudhill@hotmail.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 21:49:16 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Historical Fiction (BYU Universe) Thom Duncan wrote: > Stone treats historyt exactly the same way that Shakespeare did. As a means > to an aratistic end that may have nothing to do with really "happened." That would be fine, except he keeps claiming it's historically accurate. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 21:57:24 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Historical Fiction (BYU Universe) Valerie Holladay wrote: > I think it's easier to educate one author about > audience and the ramifications of trying to publish a > book about poetry, than to educate thousands of > readers, and nonreaders, about the importance of > poetry. > It's a lot easier to > educate the writer, who has a greater personal > interest in learning what's real and a recognition of > the need to know why it matters, as well as a desire > to learn how it can be done well. Apples and oranges. "Educating" people that they should like poetry (i.e., forcing your tastes on them) is a far cry from reminding them of the simple fact that historical fiction is fiction--lots of the stuff in it is made up. On the other hand, "educating" authors that they have to make everything in their historical fiction completely accurate is disguised censorship, not education. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 22:05:33 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Historical Fiction (BYU Universe) Rose Green wrote: > A little fiddling here > and there may make a better story, but I just don't think there's any excuse > for shoddy research. I don't think anyone's promoting shoddy research. We're talking about a special case of the maxim, learn the rules before breaking them. A person who gets history wrong because he doesn't know what really happened is merely incompetent. The author who does his research, and knowingly changes facts because he thinks it will make the story better, is a completely different thing from the author who is just ignorant of the facts. > I can think of another historical series (this time LDS) that sticks so > close to the "facts" as recorded in "history" (whatever that means) that > it's boring. Why the squeamishness? No one else here is shy about naming titles. What series might that be? > If I want to read a fictionalized account of Joseph > Smith, Brigham Young, and the early pioneers, I want to get a better idea of > their character. I want some life, some imagination, breathed into what > they MIGHT have been like. (Like in Card's Stone Tables, or Sarah, both of > which I think did a nice job with that.) Or his book _Saints_, bringing Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the early pioneers to life. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:52:17 -0500 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: [AML] Flashbacks (was: Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_) Thom, I am interested in your comment about flashbacks. I've read a few writing books and don't remember coming across this thought. I have been invaded by thoughts of a book that, quite frankly, I don't want to write. I write all the thoughts down because-well, what else can I do? I don't want to write this story but it's what comes knocking on my door at the most absurd times. And it's all in flashbacks. I'm getting the idea that this older woman, in looking back on her life, is learning how to cope with the present she finds herself in. Any further explanation you could add to your comment would be greatly appreciated. Tracie - -----Original Message----- One of those is the sparse use of exclamation points. Another is the overuse (or the use at all) of flashbacks. Every book on writing I've ever read seems to agree that a writer who has to resort to flashbacks isn't telling his story from the right starting point. And explanation points (like the too often use of adverbs) is a glaring mark of amateurishness. The existence of these two elements alone tells me that, one, the author is too new and inexperienced for my time. His story may be marvelous despite all that; he may be a genuis who, like Charles Dickens, doesn't understand grammar or punctuation but whose story-telling skills are worth the clunky prose. He may have found a way, in the face of the hundreds of failed examples preceding him, to use extensive flashbacks to his advantage. If so, I'll wait for other reviewers and perhaps history to confirm that fact and then I'll read the novel. At this point, I'm not willing to invest the money in a book that shows such signs of being so amateurish. Thom - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:52:19 -0500 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Regionalism This wouldn't happen to be Francoise Boi would it? If you don't mind saying. Tracie - -----Original Message----- Laurel Brady wrote: My experience with my editor at HarperCollins has been exactly the opposite. I was nervous about submitting my first book, as it has rather direct references to faith and God and family and not too subtle Mormon values. My editor jumped on those things, and encouraged me to not only keep them in, but expand them. The end result is not blatant, and not Mormon, but definitely Christian (without being "Christian".) - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:52:16 -0500 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) I think I'm probably one of the mainstream LDS viewers that you may suspect of being offended by this movie. Not having seen it, I don't know if I would be offended. My reasons for not seeing it-other than not being much of a movie watcher--wouldn't be the probability of being offended or not. They would be more on the lines of my stomach/heart/head just can't take really intense portrayals of anything. I'm assuming that when we use the word 'offended' in this context we're talking about 'offending the spirit." I wish we, Mormons, would use different terminology to differentiate between different things. Some members I know equate everything that touches their heartstrings with warm, fuzzy feelings as a spiritual experience, rather the emotional experience it is. There are many films that turn my stomach or 'offend' my emotions without offending my spirit. Depictions of the crucifixion are high on my list of least favorite things to watch. Tracie Laulusa - -----Original Message----- Traffic is the sort of film that would offend mainstream LDS viewers. I suspect they would see it as a worldly exploitation of drugs. I would argue against it being exploitative. The movie is shocking, but showed restraint in a number of instances where other directors/writers would not have held back. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:03:30 -0600 From: "Darvell Hunt" Subject: [AML] Small Yahoo! Is it appropriate to holler a "small yahoo" in this group? ;) [MOD: Absolutely!] I got my first newspaper article published in the "Lehi Free Press" edition of the "New Utah," a small paper published in Utah County. It doesn't pay much and it's no earth-shattering Pulitzer, but I do hope to gain writing experience by publishing an article or two per week. I'm going to be covering Saratoga Springs for the paper, which is where I'm moving in about a month or two. You can see my article posted on the NewUtah web site at: http://www.newutah.com/10821.htm It's not a novel, but it's a start! Darvell _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:40:52 -0700 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Flashbacks (was: Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_) Tracie Laulusa wrote: > Thom, > > I am interested in your comment about flashbacks. I've read a few writing > books and don't remember coming across this thought. Maybe it's a more of an interdiction in screenplays than novels. Virtually everybook I've ever read in writing screenplays warns against their *over*use. > I have been invaded by > thoughts of a book that, quite frankly, I don't want to write. I write all > the thoughts down because-well, what else can I do? I don't want to write > this story but it's what comes knocking on my door at the most absurd times. > And it's all in flashbacks. I'm getting the idea that this older woman, in > looking back on her life, is learning how to cope with the present she finds > herself in. Any further explanation you could add to your comment would be > greatly appreciated. It's not the use of flashbacks that is discouraged, but the inappriate use of same. What constitutes inappropriate use? That could very well be a value judgement. Basically, if it works, it's okay, whatever "works" means. Thom Duncan - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:47:00 -0700 From: "Tyler Moulton" Subject: Re: [AML] Flashbacks Tracie Laulusa wrote: >>I have been invaded by thoughts of a book that, quite frankly, I don't = want to write. I write all the thoughts down because-well, what else can = I do? I don't want to write this story but it's what comes knocking on my = door at the most absurd times. And it's all in flashbacks. I'm getting = the idea that this older woman, in looking back on her life, is learning = how to cope with the present she finds herself in. Tracie, reading this, I'm curious if you've seen the film Starchild. Much = of the film explores the confused thoughts of an aging Mrs. Hargreaves = (the girl for whom Lewis Carroll wrote his stories) looking back on her = life. Flashbacks are interspersed with what seems be the beginnings of = dementia (incorporating the mad Hatter and other characters from Carroll's = stories) as she tries to find sense and meaning and resolution in her = life. I thought it was beautifully done. Flashback can certainly be put to good use. The problem is that too often = it's a patch for sloppy story telling. I say, write your book. Tyler Moulton - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:36:08 -0700 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Tracy says: I'm assuming that when we use the > word 'offended' in this context we're talking about 'offending the spirit." > I wish we, Mormons, would use different terminology to differentiate between > different things. I would prefer the phrase, "offending MY spirit." What I like about that expression is that it is saying that, for whatever reason, a certain movie/book, etc. offends you. And who can argue against that? OTOH, to say that "it offends the Spirit" implies a value judgment of one's ability to understand THE spirit, the Holy Ghost. Thom Duncan - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 12:12:41 -0700 From: "Brent J. Rowley" Subject: Re: [AML] Historical Fiction (BYU Universe) > D. Michael wrote: > Wouldn't it be better to educate the audience that fiction, after all, > is fiction, and they shouldn't be getting their history lessons from > fiction? > Annette Lyon wrote: > Sure, in an ideal world. But that isn't going to happen. Not only are people > not reading history books hardly at all anymore, but you'd be surprised at > how many people believe everything they see/read/hear in a historical > fiction piece, and never do any follow-up. Ain't THAT the truth. People are SO extraordinarily gullable these days, it's just amazing. When I was working with Covenant a couple of years ago, they commented to me that one of the most annoying things they have to deal with is readers calling or writing and asking, (sincerely and honestly), "Where exactly is that cave up by Cody, Wyoming, that leads to the Nephites times?" (Tennis Shoes - Heimerdinger) Give me a break! - -BJ Rowley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Have you gone "Inviz" lately? Check out "Missing Children," Volume Three in the "Light Traveler Adventure Series." Exciting and Action-Packed Out-Of-Body Adventure -- by BJ Rowley http://www.bjrowley.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 12:09:35 -0700 From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] Historical Fiction (BYU Universe) >I don't expect to get a history lesson from historical novels any more >than I expect to get a science lesson from SF novels. At the same time, >however, if the history or science of a novel intrigues me enough, I just >may go out and find out what really is true and what ain't. This is so true. I've been reading a novel set in the 1890s, and one of the characters is the King of Bohemia. I became curious enough about Bohemia to look it up. I found that the last guy in reality to be crowned King of Bohemia took the throne in 1791. I know little or nothing about that part of the world, except to be glad that I wasn't born there, so the exercise was an interesting one for me. Historical novels, if well done, almost always send me for a search for facts about the reality they are based on. Right now I know quite a bit about the Napoleonic Wars, the Mayfair section of London, the Georgian kings of England, and the rigors of life in the Royal Navy. I wouldn't have a clue about any of these things had I not become interested through historical fiction. barbara hume - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:00:54 -0700 From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism No, Alix Reid. - ----- Original Message ----- > This wouldn't happen to be Francoise Boi would it? If you don't mind > saying. > > Tracie > > -----Original Message----- > Laurel Brady wrote: > > My experience with my editor at HarperCollins has been exactly the opposite. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:54:44 -0700 From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Changes Jonathan wrote: The best that the rest of us can generally manage is to pretend that we're all professional, objective, smilingly willing to accept cuts and revisions even though we actually want to RIP THEIR ARMS OFF FOR DARING TO MESS WITH WHAT WE'VE WRITTEN. I'm starting to realize how lucky I was to get the editor I did when I first started out. I wasn't particularly confident as a writer, and I waited on pins and needles to hear from her for any revisions. She was always kind when giving feedback--pointing out the good as well as the not so good, and showing me what I could do to give her what she wanted. She was very much the midwife, as Jonathan describes it. I worked with her several times, and as time went on I came to see her as a real ally who could really make me look good. I trusted her implicitly, and since she returned that trust, I think I produced better work than I would have if the person in the editor's chair had been more of an adversary to me. The more I've writen, though, the more confident I am (I suppose the ego grows with experience), so that sometimes criticism is harder to take. I admit in later years I would quite gladly have ripped off someone's arms. : ) Annette Lyon - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 15:39:30 -0700 From: Mike South Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Changes Our esteemed moderator (Jonathan Langford) wrote: > ...I've seen stories made worse by too much revision and > polishing--but that's usually because the author himself or herself can't > be persuaded to leave the work alone, not because of editorial > interference. This reminds me of something one of my design instructors told me in school. It takes two designers to create a design: one to design it and the other one to tell him when he's finished. - --Mike South - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 12:01:16 -0700 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Historical Fiction (BYU Universe) D. Michael Martindale wrote: > Thom Duncan wrote: > > >> Stone treats historyt exactly the same way that Shakespeare did. As a means >> to an aratistic end that may have nothing to do with really "happened." > > > That would be fine, except he keeps claiming it's historically accurate. Not true. In doing the talk show circuit around JFK time, he made it quite clear he was doing what the Bard was doing. Thom - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 16:09:04 -0700 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Flashbacks On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:52:17 -0500, Tracie Laulusa wrote: >I am interested in your comment about flashbacks. I've read a few = writing >books and don't remember coming across this thought. I have been = invaded by >thoughts of a book that, quite frankly, I don't want to write. I write = all >the thoughts down because-well, what else can I do? I don't want to = write >this story but it's what comes knocking on my door at the most absurd = times. >And it's all in flashbacks. I'm getting the idea that this older woman,= in >looking back on her life, is learning how to cope with the present she = finds >herself in. Any further explanation you could add to your comment would= be >greatly appreciated. Might I suggest you look seriously at something along the lines of Eileen Gibbons Kump's _Bread and Milk_. It seems similar to what you are doing = and was, for me, a very powerful collection of short stories. The narrative thread that ties them together is, to me, much more powerful than any = series of flash-backs could be. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 18:11:06 -0500 From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: [AML] Flashbacks Tyler wrote: >Tracie, reading this, I'm curious if you've seen the film >Starchild. Much of the film explores the confused thoughts >of an aging Mrs. Hargreaves (the girl for whom Lewis >Carroll wrote his stories) looking back on her life. Actually, that's _Dreamchild_: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0089052 I first saw this in Fall 1990 at BYU's International Cinema in a double feature with Jan Svankmajer's _Alice_, a fascinating (and periodically morbid) Czech retelling of the Carroll book using a blend of live action and stop-motion animation -- one of my all-time favorites: http://www.awn.com/heaven_and_hell/SVANK/svank2.htm Eric D. Dixon "We get away with nothing. We cannot escape the repercussions of our actions, however subtle they may be. We cannot get away from ourselves. We cannot get away from the world we live in. Our decisions, our choices which underlie our actions & give rise to them, create the world we inhabit." -- Robert Fripp - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:03:38 -0600 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Historical Fiction (BYU Universe) I think I have to disagree with many of the opinions that are being expressed, essentially--as I see it--blaming readers for their poor judgment if they prefer fiction that is historically accurate, to the extent that the historical facts are known, as opposed to fiction which (either knowingly or unkowingly) takes liberties with those facts. Often, I'm one of those readers. And I don't consider myself either lazy or unsophisticated. Clearly, though, I go to historical fiction for something different than what Thom, or Michael, or some others write it for--though there are also a number of fine historical fiction authors who consider it "part of the game" to take care not to violate any known historical facts, just as some hard science fiction writers consider it "part of the game" not to write anything that violates known physical law, although they may postulate additional laws not currently known. Fine enough; different fiction can have different purposes. But that does put me outside Thom and Michael's audience--as much due to their lack of interest in writing what I want to read, as due to my lack of desire to read what they want to write. Not something for which I (or they) should be blamed, as I see it; all of us make choices about how we will spend our reading and writing time. (By the way, I'm using "Thom and Michael" as a sort of generic label for the position they've staked out here, rather than a comment on any particular work of theirs I've happened to look at...) And so I think that rather than criticize me for my poor taste, it would reward authors who might want to attract my buying dollars (or pennies, depending on how rich or poor I'm feeling at the moment) to find out *why* I feel the way I do. So here are some of my reasons, as best I can sort them out: As I think Tracie pointed out, it's hard to keep track of the source of various "facts" we think we've learned. There's no inherent difference in how we process information from different types of sources--say, from a story as opposed to a history book. I don't like the feeling of not knowing which items I can accept as historically valid and which I can't. More important, as I think I've expressed before, is my sense that in writing particularly about historical characters, authors draw on something already existing: a pool or body of knowledge, attitudes, and so forth. They're not constructing their fictional universe from scratch; rather, they're piggybacking on already existing historical figures and what's known about them. It seems to me that there's a certain responsibility not to misuse that material--a responsibility both to the historical figures involved and to the larger community. The cultural and historical baggage that accompanies historical characters can't be left behind when they're brought into a literary work: it's there along with them. But stories are also actors within a culture, and can have their own effect on the community's body of knowledge and attitudes about historical figures. Indeed, I think that is often their intention. I can't believe that Scott Card had no desire to affect how his readers felt about Joseph Smith when he wrote _Saints_/_A Woman of Destiny_. And even if he didn't plan for it to have that effect, it seems to me that it did--and that the more successful the work as an artistic work, the greater that impact will be. Basically, it seems to me that to fiddle with historical ingredients, then tell us as readers that it's our fault if we let our perceptions of those ingredients be changed by the writers' working with them, is to attempt to exert the storyteller's cultural power while at the same time denying the existence of that power. I should probably add, while I'm at it, that it seems to me that there's a difference between adding something--a character, an event--that was not historically there (as far as we know), and altering the characteristics of a known person or event. The second bothers me a lot more than the first. I also think that in historical fiction, it's appropriate to critique an artistic work not only on points of fact, but also on points of likelihood--for example, whether actions created for a character seem reasonable, based on what we historically know about that person. This seems to me a matter not only of historical accuracy, but of artistic craft as well. If you're going to draw on a certain set of artistic materials, you want to make sure they're well suited to the use to which you're putting them. Of course, such judgments can vary, both in terms of historical meaning and in terms of artistic appropriateness. This doesn't mean, however, that these are inappropriate grounds for critiquing a piece of historical fiction. Rather, it suggests to me that a good critical exchange regarding a piece of historical fiction should help make more explicit the historical *and* artistic assumptions of the reader and writer both. In other words, if I dislike someone else's artistic depiction of Joseph Smith, a good discussion of that fact is likely to include areas such as my own conception of the historical Joseph Smith and the relationship between that conception and the one advanced (in my view) by the work of art. Some may feel that these are not "artistic" questions per se--but in my opinion, the artist invites discussion on precisely these points when using historical figures. Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #249 ******************************