From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #745 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Monday, June 17 2002 Volume 01 : Number 745 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:16:29 -0600 (MDT) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: RE: [AML] Secret Combinations in Literature > Now, first of all, I should say that I think all the things I listed above = > are nutty. If you agree with any of them, I'm sorry for calling you = > nutty. Write me privately and let's talk. I just think it's interesting = > that this one area of Book of Mormon emphasis has had such a weird effect = > on some aspects at least of current LDS culture. We are, at the very = > least, inclined to see phenomena of which we disapprove as linked to some = > sort of secret combination.=20 > > Eric Samuelsen What I find interesting about Eric's list is that it is composed of strictly conspiracy theories propounded by ultra-conservative thinkers. Absent were conspiracies held by those on the far left. I saw a Mallard Fillmore cartoon once that said something like "Ever notice how many intellectuals easily dismiss right wing conspiracy theories, but openly advocate left wing ones. This list is fairly general, so it isn't pointed at anyone in particular (I probably actually hold some of these views myself to one degree or another). (and these are all extremes - most of us fall in the middle somewhere). Right wingers tend to believe communists are behind it all Left wingers tend to believe it's capitalists Right - Jewish overlords Left - White Male overlords (may be Jewish) Right - Feminists, Homosexuals Left - Chauvanists, Heterosexuals Right - The Media and Hollywood! Left - Hollywood is fine, except for George Lucas and his awful Star Wars movies. Right - Bans books about sex, violence and satanism. Left - Bans books like the Bible, the Giving Tree and anything by a dead white male. Right - Bill Clinton ordered the murder of lots of people. Left - George W. Bush allowed 9/11 to happen to solidify his power The question for literature is - what do you base the theories on. I find it interesting that the discussion so far has been on theories that originate from the far right. The far left conspiracy theories are just as fun. - --ivan wolfe - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:24:00 -0600 From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Change Names or Not? My inclination is to say use real names. Since she kept a journal all that time, it'd be pretty hard to try to sue her. Contemporary records tend to trump anything except contradicting contemporary records. Jacob Proffitt <-- not a lawyer. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:32:56 -0600 From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Money Matters - ---Original Message From: Clark Goble > ___ Jacob ___ > | In my opinion, though, too many bishops are quick to reach > | the judge part and a bit short on the actual getting to know > | you bit. That's likely a side-effect of our lay-priesthood. > ___ > > Probably an other part is the 300+ members they have to deal > with. I've noticed that if you make an effort to get to know > the bishop that then he'll be aware of you. Otherwise he > only knows you as more than a face if you happen to be in a > calling he interacts with a lot. Ah. But that's my point. If a bishop is going to make a comment that simultaneously assigns blame, he needs to make sure he has the requisite information. It doesn't matter if he's never met me before in his life, if he is going to say that I should budget better, then he had better have previously asked me what my budget is. Passing judgement without a clear spiritual impression or detailed knowledge is an abdication of responsibility. In my opinion, of course. Jacob Proffitt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:23:03 -0700 From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Will BAGLEY, _Blood of the Prophets_ (Review) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clark Goble" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 5:42 PM Subject: RE: [AML] Will BAGLEY, _Blood of the Prophets_ (Review) > ___ Jeff ___ > | I feel a bit uncomfortable defending Bagley's thesis here. > | An outsider treads lightly. I suspect Will himself could > | answer this question better. > ___ > > We're all friends here. So let lose with your thoughts. Ha! The surest way to LOSE friends is to "let loose with my thoughts" . I knew going in to the book that Will would not hold BY blameless, to say the least. I knew he had that bias, and made some provision for that in reading the book. My main concern was, did he have history to support his thesis? This is a tough question. And I continue to feel some discomfort about *defending* any person's bias. I'd rather just report the findings, and let others engage in the argument. [Jeff Needle] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:53:22 -0500 From: lajackson@juno.com Subject: [AML] Re: Secret Combinations in Literature Bill Willson: Speaking of conspiracies then and now, I have often wondered if any of our Latter-Day Writers have addressed the issues raised about the church in "The God Makers." Have the enlightened LDS writers chosen to ignore this trash or have they written anything to expose and or refute its false claims? _______________ Gilbert W. Scharffs wrote _The Truth About "The God Makers"_ in 1986 (Publisher's Press, 408 pp, hardcover). At the time the book was published, he had taught in the Church Education System for 27 years, had earned his Ph.D. and was on the religious faculty at BYU. If I remember correctly, he addressed the book page by page and did a pretty good job of documenting his findings. I have the book and skimmed it. I didn't spend a lot of time on it because I thought "The God Makers" was so ridiculous in the first place. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:02:02 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Ghostly Query ___ Richard ___ | I'd recommend Duane Crowther's excellent treatise entitled, | _Life Everlasting_. Be sure to get the most recent edition. ___ Just out of curiosity, but is that the Crowther book that goes through a lot of "non-official" GA comments on spirits from the 19th century? There is a quote I've been looking for about how some GAs said that if you cut a hole in the body the spirit could "see" through it. I'm looking for the quote for a paper I'm writing on Orson Pratt's theology of spirits and Stoicism. I argue that they are pretty much the same, minus the old geocentric view of the "spheres" in the heavens and Pratt's denial of interpenetration. (i.e. two bodies in the same place) If anyone knows a good collection of quotes on spirits from more obscure sources (i.e. not _The Seer_ or related texts) I'd appreciate it. - -- Clark Goble --- clark@lextek.com ----------------------------- - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:11:05 -0600 From: "Nan McCulloch" Subject: Re: [AML] Secret Combinations in Literature Gilbert W. Scharffs wrote _The Truth About "The God Makers"_: A response to an inaccurate portrayal of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It was published by Publishers Press, Salt Lake City, Utah. I read the 5th printing in 1988. There was a disclaimer saying that the views and interpretation of LDS doctrine and history in this book reflect the understanding of the author and are not necessarily the official views of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I thought the book was interesting, since we were living in Texas at the time and our local Protestant churches were giving _The God Makers_ firesides and preaching anti-Mormon stuff from the pulpit. My Baptist friends took up a collection to send Bibles to Utah. I am not sure that the book was completely doctrinally correct. It has been a long time since I read it. My husband was the bishop in Huntsville, Texas for 11 years. The Saints in that area either worked at the prison or taught at Sam Houston State University. Nan McCulloch - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:07:05 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Secret Combinations in Literature Bill Willson wrote: > Speaking of conspiracies then and now, I have often wondered if any of our > Latter-Day Writers have addressed the issues raised about the church in *The > God Makers.* Have the enlightened LDS writers chosen to ignore this trash > or have they written anything to expose and or refute its false claims? An entire book has been written refuting _The God Makers_. It's called _The Truth About the God Makers_ and was written by Gilbert Scharffs, published by Bookcraft. There is also a _God Makers II_ book which I've never seen, except listed on Amazon.com. Both _God Makers II_ and _Truth_ are listed out of print, but _God Makers_ itself is still in print. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:44:22 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Lynching the Speaker b5dorsai wrote: > > I always have enjoyed the definition that Orson Scott Card gave in his book > "The Saint's Dictionary" on Adam. He said (I am paraphrasing here because I > do not have the book in front of me) that "Adam was the first man to blame a > woman for his own actions." The book is _Saintspeak: The Mormon Dictionary_, and the entry reads: "Adam: The first man to insist he was not responsible for what a woman enticed him to do." - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:00:40 -0500 From: "Preston" Subject: [AML] re: Ghostly Query A few days ago, answering a query about LDS-related fiction about ghosts, I mentioned L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s novel OF TANGIBLE GHOSTS. The novel I was actually thinking of -- the one that is set in Utah and is largely about Latter-day Saints -- is titled GHOST OF THE REVELATOR. In GHOST OF THE REVELATOR the "Revelator" is Joseph Smith, and the novel involves an extremist faction intent on using new ghost-related technology to conjure up the ghost of Joseph Smith. OF TANGIBLE GHOSTS is the first novel, and REVELATOR is its sequel. Although Latter-day Saints are mentioned in passing in the first novel, they are not the focus. Both novels are by Modesitt, a rather prolific and successful science fiction writer who lives in southern Utah, but is not a native of the state and has never been a Latter-day Saint. Interestingly enough, a character who is essentially supposed to be Orson Scott Card (but is named "Carson Orr") plays a key role in Modesitt's other LDS-centric novel THE PARAFAITH WAR. Both novels present a very fresh, very knowledgable perspective on Utah and Latter-day Saints, and there is clearly admiration and respect for the culture, although by the end of each Modesitt's more agnostic/environmentalist pespectives emerge victorious. [Preston Hunter] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:27:49 -0700 From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] re: Will BAGLEY, _Blood of the Prophets_ (Review) Well, I must say that my review of Bagley's book has raised more discussion, and heated comment, on-list and off-list, than anything I've ever done. It was even forwarded to one of the hotshots at FARMS (who is also a personal friend), and I've just finished a response to him. I thought I'd better clarify something that may not have been clear. When I wrote the review, I decided to cite the most controversial, and interesting, parts of Bagley's view of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Some have taken this as my agreement with his conclusions. If I agreed with the conclusions of every book I review, I'd be a true schizoid. Thanks to all for your support. - -------------------------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com or jeffneedle@nethere.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:41:23 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Doctrine Versus Culture At 11:14 AM 6/13/02, you wrote: >I seriously doubt such a prophet would be accepted in Utah or in >most wards in any state that are predominantly made up of white Americans. >Not in our lifetimes anyway. Things would have to change dramatically for >that to happen. Now, that could make an interesting LDS book. The Lord calls a man from, say, Portugal to be the prophet, and the Caucasian American contingent of the church says, "No! We won't have it! He's not One of Us!" Then what happens? Does the Lord accept their dismissal of His choice, or does he say to the Causcasian American bigots, "You're out.We'll just go along without you." There are some interesting precedents in the Old Testament to this sort of thing. barbara hume - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:23:08 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Secret Combinations in Literature Responding to the Laird Jim: > What worries me are > several problems that come up when creating even a false secret = brotherhood > dedicated to evil. >=20 > First there are their acts. Evil is not pleasant to write about > Creating > characters that are steeped in evil is no fun, and making them believable= is > even less fun. You're kidding, right? There's nothing more fun in the world than writing = villains. The hard part is reigning yourself in. Certainly as an actor, = there's nothing more fun than playing a villain, and writing them has it's = own pleasures. It's good guys who are hard to write. Most of the = pleasure of writing is creating characters who do awful things I wouldn't = ever do on my own account > How villainous can a > villain be and yet exist in literature that Mormons would not object to? > What would be the point of writing a book that my own people wouldn't = read? > Especially because it wasn't uplifting. Well, Mormons flock to see Shakespeare, and my subjective impression is = that the plays of his that do best with Mormon audiences are Macbeth and = Richard III. And the Book of Mormon has generally been a popular = favorite, aside from the Isaiah passages, which folks just skip. Coupla = nasty bad guys in that work. =20 As for 'uplifting', I don't have the faintest idea what that word means. = Anyone? My favorite movie of the last ten years, Amores Perros, provided = me an intensely moving spiritual experience, and was also extremely = violent, with quite graphic sexual content. That's 'uplifting' to me, in = ways that manipulative schlock like 'Testaments' never could be. =20 As for creating fiction with secret combinations in it, I think that's a = wonderful challenge. Just make it plausible. Can we declare space aliens, = the UN and the Kennedy assassination off-limits? Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:02:02 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] New Sugar Beet We never said it would be worth it; we just said it would be funny. http://www.thesugarbeet.com Stake Presidency Warns of Heightened Need for Food Storage President Monson Mows Lawn Seattle Man Has More in Common with Relief Society Sisters New PDA Plug-In Broadcasts Scripture-Study Habits Sunstone Dramatically Expands Programs Institute Director Bans "Grease" Relief Society Develops "Powder-Puff Self-Defense" Class Local Eagle Forum President Promoted Shirley MacLaine Once Married to Brigham Young New Mother Unable to Remember Spelling of Daughter's Name Review of Attack of the Clones Plus our usual departments - ----- Coming July 24: The Sugar Beet Pioneer Issue A preview of headlines: Latter-day Saints Help Reverse America's Position on the Ignorant Heathen Red Man, by H.E. White The Blessings of Being a Daughter in Zion, by Bishop Ezekiel K. Fillmore Unmarried 20-Year-Old Men Are A Menace To Society, by Jedediah C. Woolley, Stake Patriarch Ask a Gleaner Girl Mormons Almost Not Valley's First White Settlers Catching Up with Emma Smith - ----- Want to try your hand at Sugar Beet reporting? Send your story to chris@thesugarbeet.com. Do you draw superhero comics? Are you a sinister code jockey? The Sugar Beet needs a few new helpers. Click here for more info: http://www.xmission.com/~thebeet/business/jobs.html OPT OUT: To stop receiving Sugar Beet updates, reply to this message with REMOVE in the subject header. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:12:19 -0700 From: The Laird Jim Subject: Re: [AML] Doctrine Versus Culture on 6/13/02 10:14 AM, Rachel Ann Nunes at Rachel@rachelannnunes.com wrote: > Being married to a foreigner, I have noticed a > distinct difference in the way he is treated in Utah because he has an > accent. This has influenced the development of my ethnic theory, which > basically states that people who speak with an accent are called to > supportive roles, usually secretary or teachers, but not to positions of > authority. Not in Utah anyway, though there are a few exceptions. (I've > noticed my ethnic theory doesn't hold true in some wards in California and > perhaps in a few other states.) [snip] I think your husband is right. I am no fan of the Utah culture, but God knows what he's doing. I used to think on my mission that naturally those with the best leadership abilities would always be called to leadership positions and was rather astonished at some of the half-wits that were in charge of things. Bumbling, foolish, and sometimes outright rule-flouters. One of the Assistants used to wander off by himself every morning to play racketball! Eventually I learned that leadership positions often go to those who need growth in that area, not those who can do the best job. As far as a foreign born and accented Prophet it's just a matter of time. If there's a revolution in Utah so what? Backwoods provincialism is what we're dealing with here not egocentrism. But then I always try to find any reason other than the psychological because I don't believe in psychology or psychiatry and particularly in pscychiatrists. I'm a Occam's Razor kinda guy. It is a fact, however, that America is the best country in history with only a few exceptions, like the Nephites from 33-230+/- AD and the city of Enoch. If we weren't so perfectionistic we'd have no poor among us already. Poor here ain't poor there! If it weren't so hot you might like AZ. The Mormon culture down here is much better than in UT. There are still a few Utahrdish things that go on down here on occasion, but mostly being only 8-10% of the population is a good mix. Of course I live where I'm the only Mormon in 5 square miles except for my roommate. Give the poor yokels a chance. Have pity on them and demonstrate your superior knowledge by your tolerance for their backwardness. They'll come around eventually. If not, so what? Putting up with foolishness ain't exactly being marched off to a concentration camp. Jim Wilson aka the Laird Jim - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:34:03 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] Sugar Beet Needs Help The Sugar Beet (www.thesugarbeet.com) has been making headway in the world of Mormon humor and satire, but we are looking to expand in a few areas that we don't have the personnel and/or expertise to handle. If you're interested in helping us, peruse the following descriptions of two volunteer positions. If you have any questions, feel free to e-mail the Sugar Beet editor at editor@thesugarbeet.com. [Note: Please forward this message to any groups or individuals who may be interested.] Comic Artist The Sugar Beet is currently developing a comic strip called HIGH COUNCIL MAN. High Council Man is a superhero with super strength and endurance. He can fly, has the ability to see and hear things at great distances, etc. Standard Superman-type stuff. He has a rotating sidekick called The Boy Elder. In each adventure this character will be completely different (fat, skinny, bald, and so forth), though he'll wear the same simple costume: a suit and tied-on cape. We have not settled on a costume for High Council Man. We're looking for an artist to draw the strip, which will be written by one of our current writers. The strips themselves will be standard panel cartoons rather than gag strips, and they'll be longer than the 3-5 panels strips that appear in the daily newspaper-more like your average Sunday strip, though we may consider longer formats at some time. We're looking for sophisticated comic art, not your standard Marvel or DC fare. You'll be more successful if you're in the "Jimmy Corrigan," "Krazy Kat," "Red Meat," "Calvin and Hobbes" or Dark Horse comics zone. We're not looking for "X-men," "Heavy Metal," or other main stream approaches, though we'd be interested if you demonstrated a retro style like that of Steve Dittko or Jack Kirby. In addition to your drawing ability, you'll need to be able to make pretty strict deadlines and submit your work electronically in LZW-compressed TIFF format with an IBM Byte order (PDFs are also okay). You will also need to be able to layout, ink, letter, and color, while working from a script or story board. We would prefer images created the old-fashioned way and then scanned or run through Streamline, rather than computer-generated images-but if you work that way, convince us. If you're interested, send a brief letter of interest and no more than three sample pages of your work (be sure to show your range) to the following address. We will accept submissions until July 31st. Those who did not make the first cut will be informed by August 7th. Also make sure to send photocopies (BW or color) of your work as well as an e-mail address, as the Sugar Beet will not return submissions. Submissions to: ATTN: High Council Man Todd Robert Petersen PO Box 982 Cedar City, UT 84721 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= Code Jockey The Sugar Beet is looking to add some interactivity to our site. We already have a web designer, so we don't need that kind of help. What we're looking for is someone with a pretty swift knowledge of any (or all?) of the following: ASP, XML, DMHTL, PERL, JAVA. Our most immediate need is for some help with passwording, e-mail handling, and forms, but our needs will change and develop. If you're interested, send an e-mail of interest to petersent@suu.edu. In this message give us some background on yourself, your qualifications, and some links to on-line work that you've done, so we can see your chops in action. Also make sure to have the words "stunt coder" somewhere in the subject line, or we might not catch your message. We'll accept letters until July 5th. Those who don't make the first cut will be notified by July 12th. Chris Bigelow - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:46:17 EDT From: PinkDiva@aol.com Subject: [AML] Introduction: Lisa Turner I've been lurking on this list for a few weeks and thought I'd introduce myself. My name is Lisa Turner. I live in Littleton, Colorado. I am a writer and a writing teacher. I have had three books published in the LDS market -- two humorous novels (PRAY AWAY POUNDS and TWELVE DISASTERS OF CHRISTMAS) and a book of essays. I've also written a lot for magazines and have written a series of easy readers for high school foreign language students (they are translated into Spanish, so I can't read my own novels once they're out of my hands.) I am currently finishing up another novel. The main characters are Mormons and faith is a theme of the novel, but I''m not sure if it's publishable in the Mormon market. Besides writing, I am married and have three sons (ages 17, 15, and 12). Yes, that's a lot of testoterone in this household. I am the ward choir director (eternally) and currently, my ward is allowing me to also teach Relief Society even though I told them I would "supplement" my lessons from sources outside the manual. I've found the discussions on this list very interesting and I'm looking forward to reading more! Lisa Turner - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:21:54 -0600 From: "Paris Anderson" Subject: Re: [AML] Understanding Others Some of them no longer wish to be associated with "people who don't understand, won't understand, or don't/won't care". > Ken Burton said that. That's about where I am right now. Maybe I should thank him for saying that. But to be honest it infuriates me--makes me want to . . . it'll pass . . . it always does . . . then I;ll get tearful and feel so sorry and ashamed of myself. Maybe I should add to his list of won'ts and don'ts a "can't understand." I don't think people at Church can understand what my problem is and how they could help me. And I really don't expect them to, because I don't. I know I change quickly. But the problem stems from a head injury and post tramatic stress and something else that I forgot. Last time I saw the bishop I was standing on the poarch of a friend's house talkking. The bishop was walking by and he came up and shook Barry's hand and talked to us. He didn't shake my hand or look me in the eye. He talked to me, but he was careful about his eyes. I was grateful about that. I really didn't want to fight for no reason. So I'm thinking maybe he can't understand, but maybe God does and maybe God told him what to do and what not to do cuz I'm having a hard time with church right now and I don't need athority people making threats. Maybe God will figure out what to do with me someday and then He'll tell the bishop. I think maybe if he tells the bishopp not to shake my hand or look at me maybe he know other things that would help. Paris Anderson - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #745 ******************************