From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #751 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, June 19 2002 Volume 01 : Number 751 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:37:18 -0700 From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Setting Goals If it is appropriate to do so, I'd like to offer an essay I wrote years ago on the topic of goal setting. It can be found at http://www.springsofwater.com/wilderness/essview.phtml?title=To+Hope+and+Qui etly+Wait?&loc=/rejoice/hopewait.txt . In facilitating resources, on-line and in person, related to addictions, I find goal setting to be the antithesis to good recovery. I discourage people who are trying to recovery from addiction from setting goals. It makes for a dangerous focus on the problem they are trying to overcome. I do not see the setting of goals to be anywhere in the scriptures I read, and as far as I know, I'm reading the same standard works as anyone else. When a man who is trying to overcome an addiction sets a goal to stay clean for x number of days, he may very well meet that goal, but oh watch out for day x+1! On the other hand, when it comes to things like writing, I find I don't get much done without a goal, or at least a routine that includes writing. I need someting in between. If I set a goal to write every day, I will probably not write any day, but if I make a statement that I want to get some writing done, I usually do. Rex Goode - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:07:26 -0700 From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Ghostly Query I agree. I just finished reading it, having found it at DI. What a delight! We need some more Sam Taylors. On 17 Jun 2002 at 17:31, Tait Family wrote: > In a humorous vein, there's Sam Taylor's classic novel, Heaven Knows > Why. Old Moroni Skinner dies and goes to heaven, but he's worried > about his grandson, so he gets permission to make a "visitation" and > that sets in motion a hilarious story. > > I can't remember now if that's the kind of thing you were looking for, > but I'll jump at any chance to pitch that book. > > Lisa Tait > > > > > > -- > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > > - ----- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com jeffneedle@nethere.net "We're all only fragile threads, but what a tapestry we make." Jerry Ellis, "Walking the Trail" - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:15:48 -0600 From: "Scott Parkin" Subject: Re: [AML] Labor Horror Stories Shelly Choong wrote: > ~I find this to be a curiously Mormon habit. I've been with groups of other > women from work and although they talk a great deal about their children, > they don't ever mention the births of their children. What is it about our > culture that makes this such a popular thing to discuss? I spoke to one > sister about it, and she said she thought it was a form of competition; to > see who could beat out the group with the most difficult births, etc. I'm > not sure if that's it, but I haven't come up with anything better. Scott Bronson already gave my suggestion--that people tend to talk about common experiences. It's a way of connecting to other people and creating a slightly larger "us" than existed before. It's why most of us find "how's the weather?" so amusing--it's one of the few things all of us have in common, so cliched as it is, it's also true that any conversation can be started (or resurrected) by resorting to that old familiar theme. In the Church I think we tend to feel an added social pressure at times, and that pressure often leads to an almost desperate attempt to find something, anything to talk to each other about. We're supposed to be this big happy family in the Church, but in the end we're also individuals with different tastes and ideas and assumptions, and small talk that touches on politics or social issues or even history can lead to a kind of argument that scares many as being too confrontational. We're supposed to be one, yet most of the interesting topics lead to contention. So we look for something that everyone can agree is a difficult yet common experience. This idea of "surviving the war" and telling your stories strikes me as another part of it. Here in Santaquin it's still possible to get people talking about the forest fire last summer with only the broadest prompting. I spent twenty minutes yesterday swapping fire stories with a man I knew by face but not by name. For those twenty minutes we were bosom buddies who had survived the terror and thus could speak at a more intimate level--partly because we know that there are relatively few of us who felt that fear directly, so our association with other survivors is that much more special. We feel affinity for each other regardless of any other separating factors; whatever else is true, we saw that fire with our own eyes. It may not make us special to the world at large, but it binds us in a way that transcends other differences, at least for the moment. I think that social pressure is sometimes even more keenly felt in the Church than elsewhere. We're thrust together with a group of functional strangers and told to be unified. So we revert to the few core topics that most of us have some familiarity with--What do you do for a living? How about that heat spell? How many children do you have? (usually followed by the birthing discussion) Are you from this area? etc. Of course I suspect you're right--having established commonality, we then look for ways to establish ourselves as the authority on the subject. Each of us wants to feel special and important, after all. Men discuss their scars; and so do women. (Which, of course, leaves the unscarred feeling left out, but that's a different discussion...or lack of discussion...or something.) Scott Parkin - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:33:43 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Secret Combinations in Literature ___ Rich ___ | How often do you hear kooky, left-wing conspiracies in Sunday | School? ___ Actually while it may seem a little surprising, the fear of the Military Industrial Complex does pop up quite a bit. Whether or not that is a left or right wing worry is a little difficult I suppose. (After all it was Eisenhower who coined the term) Part of the problem is that there is a lot of overlap between goofy left wing conspiracies and goofy right wing conspiracies. Further I have to admit that I have heard a lot of conspiracies of all sorts, right and left, here in Utah. Not all conspiracies are "false" or "urban legends" either. Let us recall that some turned out to be horribly true, such as testing syphilis on African Americans. The testing of various drugs by the CIA in Toronto back in the 60's also was true. The most famous conspiracy in Utah (outside of the Mountain Meadows Massacre or the "shadow government" of Deseret) was the nerve gas release out past Tooele in the late 60's. The VX gas purportedly came right to the edge of Utah lake. (Today it would have resulted in large number of casualties) Part of the "conspiracy of silence" involved a great deal of pressure on various law enforcement individuals to keep things quiet. Some of the stories related to this (whether true or false) get quite entertaining. Is that a right wing conspiracy or a left wing one? I believe that it was past encounters with government conspiracies in regards to nerve gas, nuclear weapons testing and the like which led strong Utah opposition to the MX missile plans in Utah back in the 80's. Perhaps these aren't quite as fun as the John Birch conspiracies, but they are part of Utah history and still do come up in church every now and then. I've heard lots of strange left wing conspiracy theories in church from more liberal Mormons also. Even here in Utah county! Then there were some of Hugh Nibley's comments on capitalism that always brought me a chuckle. Apparently the debates between Nibley and Wilkinson were the stuff of legend. Each was quite adept with conspiracy theories, as I recall. (Wilkinson was rabidly anti-communist and apparently a lot of the old extreme BYU dress code came from his opposition to the student activism of the 60's and 70's) - -- Clark Goble --- clark@lextek.com ----------------------------- - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:40:47 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Ghostly Query ___ Kathy ___ | George Ritchie's account of being taken by an angel to a bar | to witness an alcoholic's fracture of spirit and the attempts | of evil or unclean spirits to enter through the fracture and | take possession of the addict's body is plausible, given our | actual beliefs, though others may disagree with me on that | point. ___ The problem is the implications of this notion of inebriation facilitating possession. For instance if alcohol and presumably pain killers do such a good job, shouldn't we expect people to emerge from operating rooms possessed fairly quickly? I think that most NDE are sort of interpreting folk beliefs and folk psychology onto reality. This is a great example. It sounds persuasive until you start thinking through the implications for a general theory of biological - spiritual interactions. What I suspect happened here is that people recognize that various drugs cause people to act in a manner they otherwise would not. Given a common belief that "Separates" our mind from our body (the ghost in the machine) this would imply that something else is driving the body. (Which is nice because then you don't have to blame the person for their acts. Rather the drug simply blocks the spirit from controlling the body) The problem is that a modern neurological perspective would simply say that aspects of our personality get activitates that otherwise would not. It is always *us* in these situations. I suspect that a lot of this is akin to how most mental illness would have been called possession in past centuries. Now we know better, given a greater knowledge of the biology of the mind. - -- Clark Goble --- clark@lextek.com ----------------------------- - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:44:09 -0600 From: Russ Asplund Subject: RE: [AML] Doctrine Versus Culture I think what would make it an interesting book is the complexity and variety of responses. I actaully think having a non-US, non-white prophet would be cool, and I--being of norse descent--am also white to an alarming degree. I'm also Canadian by birth, however, so I don't quite have the US-centric view some do. I also spent my mission years in the South, where many people still had trouble accepting that people of other races could hold the priesthood. (Thus leading to my testimony that while the church is true, people still suck...) There were even wards that had to be racially devided, the hard feeling were so bad. So I don't think everyone to accept it quite as easily as you and I. And judging from the political views I hear in Sunday School, just a non-american prophet might be enough to trigger a crisis in faith in some. And yet, those with real testimonies would have to find a way to overcome their prejudices. If I had any skill in contemporary fiction, I'd be tempted to write it. candesa Russell Asplund director of research and development 801.426.5450 russa@candesa.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:42:10 -0600 From: "Ethan Skarstedt" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormons and Topaz [Jonathon: I realize that this post is entirely political/philosophical but since you let Eric's through and he was responding to me, I though I'd send my reply anyway.] Eric said: "Obviously, Ethan wouldn't have written this without knowing it would be controversial. Let me just say, full disclosure, that my hands are shaking right now, I'm so angry. If that was the reaction you wanted, you got it." Yes, I knew it would be controversial. I don't know whether I should be perversely gleeful that I got Eric to use the 2nd person in a post or frightened. >>I think it was a wise idea for the government to intern those of >>Japanese descent during our war with Japan. The vast majority of those >>interned were innocent and harmless and yes it was unfair. War is like >>that. Japanese spies caused a lot of harm to United States citizens, >>soldiers and otherwise. =20 "There is no evidence, none, that the interned Japanese-Americans were involved in any espionage during the war." Of course there's not. Interned Japanese would be incapable of engaging in espionage, that was the point. "There is no evidence, none, that any of the interned were thus prevented from spying." And what would this evidence have been had it existed? Pointing out that there's no evidence for something when there's no real way for that evidence to exist proves nothing. "When Earl Warren (yes, the Earl Warren) was asked about evidence of any espionage work by any interned, he said there was none, and then added "see, that just shows how devious they are." I'm paraphrasing, not having my sources in front of me, but that's about right. " I certainly won't argue with anyone about the infamy of Earl Warren, but pointing out that a man like him said what you quoted accomplishes nothing. So he was a wacko. What's new? An interned spy is out of circulation and therefore cannot spy, and therefore cannot leave evidence of his spying. Pointing out the lack is pointless. >>As an example of this we have Pearl Harbor. In >>the movie of the same name there is a single "Japanese spy" character >>shown taking tours and photographs and reporting to his superiors. I >>assure you (in spite of any historical inaccuracies that film may or may >>not have been guilty of) there was a real-life counterpart to that >>character at Pearl Harbor, more than likely several of them. =20 "Let it go that we're reduced to citing bad Jerry Bruckheimer movies as evidence. Let me add simply that the internment camps housed Japanese/Americans living on the mainland. Hawaii was something else. A single act of espionage commited one place cannot be used to justify the mass illegal and unconstitutional detainment of thousands of loyal citizens who happen to live hundreds of miles away." The character in the film was not offered as evidence, he was an example of what spies do and how innocuous activities like picture taking and touring can be directly translated into horrendous loss of life. Nor was that single example of espionage supposed to justify the internment of thousands of loyal citizens in an attempt to catch a few spies in the same net. In it's role as an example I meant (the actual) Pearl Harbor to typify the kind of thing that spying can make possible. I will again refrain from listing the possible consequences of Japan spying on the U.S. during WWII because they are nearly infinite. >>We will never know how many American lives >>were saved because Japanese moles were languishing in an internment >camp >>instead of gathering and reporting intelligence, but I am sure there >>were many. =20 "I'm just as certain that there were none. There's no evidence whatsoever that a single mole was detained. =20 Again, the fact that there's no evidence that a single mole was detained means nothing. Millennia of warfare has never seen a war that did not involve the warring groups spying on each other. History therefore leads me to believe that the Japanese were at least attempting to spy on us during WWII. And pragmatism leads me to believe that those of Japanese descent were extremely likely to have among there number a few who would and did spy for the Japanese, especially considering the social climate of the time. A climate which could understandably have led to nostalgia for the homeland. "Amazingly enough, a very large percentage of the children of detainees volunteered for service in the armed forces, where they served with unprecedented distinction--more citations for valor than any other ethnicity." I would not presume to define the motives of those Japanese/Americans who volunteered during WWII. I will, however, say that I am aware of the great extent of their valor. Being of Irish descent I feel an inkling of what I imagine they felt every time I hear about an atrocity committed by the IRA. I get the urge to do something to wipe out the stain those butcherers of children spread on the good name of the Irish. That Japanese/American men would feel the same urge and would have the courage and strength to do something about it does not amaze me. >>I am of the opinion that the inconvenience experienced by >>those who were interned, if that had been as far as it went, was a small >>price to pay for the safety of their fellow citizens. "Inconvenience? A mild word for flagrant violations of, among other things, the principle of habeas corpus." You missed the latter half of that sentence. "...if that had been as far as it went,..." (and perhaps I should have said vast inconvenience) As we are all aware, it went a good deal farther, tragically so. As I tried to put forward in my post I separate the idea of the internment and the way the internment was implemented in my mind. In reality they cannot be separated. It was an effective measure against espionage but it was not worth the crimes perpetrated on Japanese/Americans. Frankly, I am of the opinion that, overall, the internment of Japanese/Americans during WWII was not worth it. If we can't, as a nation and a people, do something like those internments without descending to the depths that were reached during WWII then we have no business doing it. I like to think that intelligent and effective precautions against espionage will be taken in my homeland during times of war. And that political correctness will take a back seat to the lives of soldiers and citizens. While I am of the opinion that the idea of the internments was a good one, they are so close to my personal line that even a single abuse of the situation is enough to scrap the whole idea. >>Now for the second half. =20 "And in the second half, you basically say 'still, it was lousy in those camps, let's not let it happen again.' Unless, of course, some misguided notion of patriotism requires again rounding up people by race and throwing them in prison with no charges filed, while their goods and homes are being illegally confiscated." =20 The race card holds no water with me in this instance. It is a sad fact that people of Japanese descent have common physical traits. The most efficient first step to determine who is of Japanese descent is to look for those traits. It is another sad fact that we were at war with Japan. The two facts combined show that (the merits of the internment policy aside) the rounding up of people by race was the best way to accomplish the stated purposes (no matter the racial opinions of those who crafted and carried out the policy). =20 The property of those interned should have been jealously protected and maintained in their absence. If we're not capable of doing that then we have no business implementing an internment, no matter the reason. Of course, it is even arguable whether the anti-espionage benefits from an internment like the one I describe are worth the rights that are, by definition, trampled. I have said which side of that line I stand on but I don't fault anyone for standing on the other. "Parallels with Missouri? Many many many." If a nation of mormons had been at war with the "missourians", who were abusing the mormons among them, there would be a meaningful parallel. Not as it stands. >>"Those who do >>not study history are doomed to repeat it." =20 "Yes. And unless despicable acts are condemned strongly, in unmistakable terms, they will indeed be repeated." =20 "Eric Samuelsen" Having now read all of today's posts on the subject, I want to add something to this one. The fact that no Japanese/Americans were ever caught committing espionage (something I was not aware of, recall my liquid opinions) means very little. To say that no espionage was committed because no one ever got caught is as untenable as saying we knew espionage was going on even though we never caught anybody. The only difference between the merits of the two statements is that on one side there resides the weight of history and experience. - -Ethan Skarstedt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:24:38 -0600 From: "Nan McCulloch" Subject: Re: [AML] Ghostly Query John, I'm sorry that I can't remember the person's name or where I lived in Texas when I heard this account of some visitations from a spirit, but I want to relate an unusual aspect of those appearances for you to consider. A woman in Relief Society was bearing her testimony concerning some genealogy work that she was doing. On several occasions she smelled the distinct odor of cigar smoke in the room where she was working. No one in her home smoked so this was very puzzling to her. She eventually recognized the presence of her grandfather (a cigar smoker), who had absolutely no interest in the gospel while living, and sensed that he was ready to have his work done. I have thought a lot about this. Did the spirit have the power to manifest his presence thought the perception of cigar smoke or was it her sub-conscious mind at work? Nan McCulloch Draper, UT - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:57:09 -0700 From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] LEACH, _Mission Accomplished_ (Review) Thanks for posting this review! I've heard of "dry" Mormons, but never heard the phrase "dry-land Mormon." I assume they mean the same thing! As much as I read, I also appreciate brevity. I hope this author continues to write. [Jeff Needle] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:31:42 -0700 From: "jana" Subject: [AML] Betsy Brannon GREEN, _Hearts in Hiding_ (Review) Review by Arlene Kay Butler (forwarded by Jana Remy) Hearts in Hiding by Betsy Brannon Green Covenant Communications Published 2001 Softcover 299 pages $14.95 Target Audience: female LDS teens and adults Summary: The story artfully combines a suspenseful thriller and romance story together beginning with the murder of Kate's husband Tony, a FBI agent working undercover, by the mob he is trying to infiltrate. The FBI = learns there is also a contract out on Kate's life. To protect her and the = baby she is expecting the FBI moves her to a new town with a new husband and = a new identity. Mark Iverson, the FBI agent who is assigned to be Kate's husband is not very happy with the prospect of taking over the identity of another = couple who although LDS are the inactive, pampered daughter and son-in-law of a state senator. There is some fun as conservative stalwart members Kate = and Mark pretend to be the glamorous high-living couple Nikki and Drew = Johnson who are trying to become active and reform their life in a small = Southern town. As they grow to love the town and it's people, the drama unfolds as the = mob learns the real Kate is missing and put their resources to finding her. I will not ruin the book by revealing everything but suffice it to say = that the story takes many unexpected twists which masterfully keeps up the suspense. Add the tension as the couple find themselves falling in = love. Throw in the delightful humor and people of Haggerty and you have a rich story. Betsy Green has produced an absolutely wonderful book that is charged = with suspense and romance. I could not wait to see how the story turned out = but then was disappointed when it ended because it was so enjoyable. It had nice doses of humor such as this non-member description of a home = teacher: "Winston has gone to help at the wreck so Drew can come to the hospital. He should be here soon. And I've called Elmer," Miss Eugenia continued = and Kate stared blankly. "He said he was your household teacher and that I should call him when you had the baby," she explained. The book did not whitewash life. There are realities that real people = face such as Kate has been married and is pregnant. When they decide to = marry for real in the temple, Mark's family comes only to try to talk him out = of marrying a widow with a baby. Kate also has to work out her feelings = for a dead husband that she did not really know very well. I look forward to more books from this first time author who will no = doubt become very popular. This well-written, delightful book is well worth = the money and is one of the few books I liked well enough to put on my = re-read list. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 03:47:13 -0500 From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Labor Horror Stories At 10:34 AM 6/15/02, Shelly (Johnson-Choong) wrote: >~I was going to remain a lurker, but this thread hit home. I'm childless. >Not by choice. But that's a whole different story. The thing is, I want to >know why Mormon women do this sort of thing? Why is it whenever a group of >Mormon women get together for Enrichment Night, or gather in the hall of= the >church, the conversation always gets around to their 36 hour labor= sessions, >etc.? > >Any ideas? When I was growing up=B9 and would go with my parents to visit my mother's= =20 family, my cousin (who was about my age) and I would try to figure out why= =20 so much of the conversation of our elders revolved around the latest=20 hospital visits, or just the general everyday aches and pains, of=20 themselves or other family members. I suspect the explanation is similar. Maybe it all boils down to something as simple as "Misery loves company"? If so, though, why does no one want to hear me describe my symptoms when I= =20 am not feeling well? _____ =B9This is not an invitation for discussion on whether or not that process= is=20 now, or ever will be, complete. - -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam=85 God bless America! My home, sweet home. - -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:15:32 -0700 From: The Laird Jim Subject: Re: [AML] Secret Combinations in Literature I didn't know that Gordon Dickson was dead! I guess I'll be waiting a few years longer for the end of the Childe Cycle. I've liked him ever since Thieves World. IPR. I believe that the only place that villains ARE forward-looking is in literature. In reality they're mostly looking to ressurect a non-existent past. Communism is trying to restore feudalism, Nazism the Roman Empire, Jacobinism/Napoleon wanted the Roman Empire too, even the Sons of Liberty were after the Roman Empire without the militarism. America is essentially a bourgeois Roman Empire and hence much more stable and moral, but who knows how long it will last. Anthropologists are always hunting for some perfect people of the past--it used to be the Mayans tillt they found that gore-spattered cave in the Yucatan, but they're still trying to find them. It's probably because of the city of Enoch. The conspiracy in my fantasy world is governed by a devil-prince who is trapped in "The Hammer of the Netherworld" which is constructed from the heart of his former body. He cannot move or act, only influence and issue commands to his followers. His goal is to eradicate all life in the world, but he of course uses lies to persuade people to follow him. He sets tasks to the different branches of his secret brotherhood that are designed to bring high body-counts and no more. He doesn't care who wins as long as there's plenty of blood on the ground. His supernatural followers know this but all do not serve his ends necessarily, and sometimes build their own not quite rivals to his. So far the ultimate bad guy is a fairly standard satan-figure. It's the sophisticated followers that I'm having trouble with. The foot soldiers are no problem, its the leaders. They're going to try to convince what amounts to an apostle to rebel and become perdition, cause he KNOWS the truth. That's my dilemma--how do I marshal arguments designed to convince a prophet that won't convince a reader? I've spent years trying to undo the ill effects of my public education--so many falsehoods and lies taught as facts and just lurking around my head without me even being aware of them. I don't want to fill somebody's head with lies that they don't recognize as such. I got all kinds of idiotic notions from schoolteachers, even though I recognized from a very early age what a joke school is. It still works its way in there, and years later there might be a whole web of beliefs based on a fallacy learned as a kiddie. For example I believed that in a divorce a man was ALWAYS responsible. No matter what she did HE was to blame somehow. The man was responsible for everything that went wrong in a marriage, too. This was something I didn't think about or really realize was in me until I saw the movie "War of the Roses" a few years ago. All my friends sided with Michael Douglas. I sided with Kathleen Turner. The argument grew heated, and eventually I realized that the belief I had, though certainly of feminist origin, was extraordinarily demeaning to women, as are many other feminist ideas. (I exclude pre-1920s and iFeminism from that statement.) I don't want to do that to somebody else. This fallacy has brought real consequences. I am terrified of divorce even now, despite the fact that I have pruned most of the ideas behind the fear. In the case of the Kumanite brotherhood it could be much worse. My first attempt was comical, and my second very scary. I'm leaning towards the comical, but unfortunately that would detract from what is otherwise quite serious. The tone of the first book is almost entirely serious. Bad things happen, and the hero who becomes a prophet is a murderer trying to atone for his crime. I can't see goofy arguments working properly, but at least it would make things safe. Hannibal Lector is not a convincing villain in this sense. He couldn't convert anybody, which is why the ending to _Hannibal_ is so silly. His arrogance is just too great to be convincing. I have to admit however that it was _Silence of the Lambs_ that first set me onto Marcus Aurelius, who remains my favorite philosopher. I owe that to Hannibal Lector's "Simplicity! Read Marcus Aurelius. Ask of each particular thing what is it in itself, in it's nature." You never know where you'll find a nugget of wisdom, but it works the other way too. Jim Wilson aka The Laird Jim - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:27:10 -0600 (MDT) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Banned Books (was Secret Combinations) Ivan Wrote: > >Right - Bans books about sex, violence and satanism. > >Left - Bans books like the Bible, the Giving Tree and anything by a dead = > >white > >male. Eric replied: > Not at all. I'd love to = > know where you get your idea about The Giving Tree. I mean, are there = > specific instances you know about where the radical left has tried to ban = > it? I think it's a great kid's book, myself. Huck Finn is an occasional = > target of the nutty left, although not by me. I would say this: the right = > wants to ban books, while the left wants to ban conservative campus = > speakers. (Banning either, of course, is an absolute desecration of the = > most cherished values of both conservatism and liberalism.) Here's a few links: http://www.harperchildrens.com/hch/nonfiction/features/banned/banned.asp http://bakerbooks.net/facts/dyk.html http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/college/nwsevnts/exhibits/banned99/ "The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein Removed from a locked reference collection at the Boulder, Colo. Public Library (1988). The book was originally locked away because the librarian considered it sexist." Basically, the arguments I've heard from the loony left (remember Eric, I'm talking about the loony far left) is that since the tree is female and the boy is male, the strory is really about how the only true fulfilment a women can find is in sacraficing herself totally to make a man happy. personal fulfillment is not an issue for the (female) tree - making a man happy is the highest duty." Also - I find it interesting that you assert the elft doesn't try to ban books - I think they do, they just don't call it banning. They call it "being sensitive." Huck Finn is banned so that they can be sensitive to racial issues. I have a book called 100 Banned Books, that is interesting. The editors try to keep a neutral tone, but a close examination of the language reveals a few prejudices - generally, it is bad to ban a book for any reason (I agree there) - but when they describe books banned by the far left like Huck Finn or the Bible, there is slight change in tone where it becomes clear the editors sympathize with these misled but good people who are just being sensitive to racial and religous issues - but those on the right are just uptight losers with nothing better to do. I think book banning is neither the exclusive province of the right or left - just that the left uses a different name. One last thought - I never think it is right to ban a book, but I also feel that half of what is called "Banning" or "Censorship" really isn't - people just use those terms as a sort of name calling (the logical fallacy of "prejudicial language"). - ---Ivan Wolfe - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:34:40 -0600 From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons and Topaz Just a couple of comments. Although German Americans were not rounded up into camps, they were watched very carefully. An example would be my father-in-law who migrated to the United States after the first part of the Great War (the one to make the world safe for democracy). This man was denied promotions, and endured slurs, etc. all during the second half of that same war. Interestingly, this was in Milwaukee, which, of course, has a huge German population. In my home town of Baltimore, also with a large German population, many German societies disbanded, and those that remained were watched very closely. About thirty years ago, I got to know several Japanese American families in California that spent time in the camps. Prejudice was on a roll even before the war, with at least two of the young men being denied membership in the Boy Scouts. Try telling them they got what they deserved. One woman that I knew was born at Topaz. She campaigned mightily for reparations. Her parents, however, just wanted to get on with their lives. By the way, all of these families became very successful, and did it in one generation, starting with virtually nothing. Was there anything positive coming from internments? I have a theory that goes along the lines that Earl Warren, the main proponent of the camps, realized the injustice his xenophobia brought to many innocents. He, therefore, became just as enthusiastic a proponent for civil rights for all Americans, and led the Supreme Court in breaking new ground in that area. Roy Schmidt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:33:10 -0600 (MDT) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Secret Combinations in Literature > > We _were_ discussing LDS culture! How often do you hear kooky, left-wing > conspiracies in Sunday School? Didn't Eric mention he had heard all of > the above in Sunday School? > > [snip] > > > The far left conspiracy theories are just as fun. > > And nearly completely absent from LDS culture. > / Rich Hammett Have I been attending all the wrong wards? Yes - i hear the far right theories more often, but every far left theory I listed I have also heard at church. - --ivan wolfe - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:46:51 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [AML] Labor Horror Stories The spring issue of Irreantum (now at the printers) has several short stories on the theme of childbirth, including one by Linda Adams that goes into a lot of detail about the labor and delivery of a woman's first child. If you're not a subscriber and want this issue, send $5 with a note requesting the spring '02 Irreantum to AML, PO Box 51364, Provo, UT 84605. Chris Bigelow - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:34:46 -1000 From: "Randall Larsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah/LDS-Made Movies on AFI's "100 Years, 100 Passions" List Preston and Listmembers, I didn't notice it if you mentioned Sam Taylor the greatgrandson of Pres. John Taylor. He was the writer of the original Sabrina. He also wrote a comedy about "Flubber" and a Flying Car which starred Fred McMurray. The second picture probably failed to make the AFI list. A number of filmaker's think Sam's book Nightfall at Nauvoo would make a great Movie or MiniSeries. Unfortunately the project could have been better done in the 1970s when people were more open to non-stereotypical views of history. *** Perhaps I missed it but does Don Bluth get a mention for any of his work at Disney or on his own. *** It was nice to see Michael T. Amundsen mentioned. I knew Michael from the LA1st Ward about 1978. Michael collaborated with me on a treatment back then that didn't quite make it to the Big Screen. I would like to see him get a shot at screenwriting as well as editing. In my opinion editing is not the highest and best use of Amundsen's talent. *** Hal Ashby's "Coming Home" was quite controversial in 1978 for one of its lovemaking scenes. As I recall Ashby thought the way the scene was depicted was crucial to telling the story. I applaud Ashby for his artistic integrity. I do recall that when I saw the film with a group of LDS singles in LA there were more than a few blushes among the sisters. Thanks for sharing your list, Kind regards, Randall Larsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #751 ******************************