From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V2 #9 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Monday, April 7 2003 Volume 02 : Number 009 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:43:07 -0700 From: thelairdjim Subject: Re: [AML] Conservative Literary Theory? There is little or no classicist criticism in the university right now because conservatives are pretty much locked out of most liberal arts seats and especially literary seats. Even at the community college level, believe it or not. I used to work with an educational computer dealer and strangely enough I find out the political bent of pretty much everyone I meet, even casually. I can't imagine why. If you want to find conservative literary critics (philosophical rather than political) you'll have to hit the internet. Most of the think tanks, some of the smaller, less well known classical liberal colleges and a bunch of free enterprise sites have book, movie and television criticism in the classical sense. I am not talking about Brent Bozell, but rather James Bowman or David Konig. Bennett is well known mainly because he's respected by a lot of journalists, which is not a recommendation in my view. I've read the _Book of Virtues_ and it's okay but hardly classic. It's for children, to begin with, and it's way too careful for me. You're right that conservatism is mainly reactionary, but this is not something that bothers me. Trying to prevent socialists from wrecking the world and killing another 150 million people is a noble cause in and of itself, regardless of its philosophical underpinnings. You assume that all conservative philosophy is derived from Christianity, but that is utterly false. What is known as conservatism today is a strange compound of Stoicism, Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Burke, Locke, Smith, Jefferson and Hamilton. And a whole lot more. Conservatism is big tent--no goose-stepping allowed. You might notice that most of these are (or were) foes--Burke and Locke, Zeno and Plato, Jefferson and Hamilton. This is still the case within the conservative movement and even more within the Republican party. There are many different religion and philosophies embedded in the conservative movement because we all agree on one thing--we're not going to have our religion and lifestyles dictated by the left. In the literary sense this amounts to criticizing from a classical perspective not because everybody agrees with all classical beliefs, but because the road is and was important. The way the world came about teaches about the way it is. By declaring Year 0 in France (and Cambodia, etc) and in effect denying the value of anything ever learned before 1789 AD the left has lost the link to its roots, which are still all visible to a conservative. That's why Classicism, that's why the regard for history and virtues. Oh, and as far as Camille Paglia goes, who cares whether she's a pagan or a lesbian? That would not exclude her from being conservative (though she really isn't philosophically conservative). She just said some nasty things about some leftists and was excommunicated. There are lots of people like here who are welcomed to the conservative side of things but that doesn't make them conservative. Some recent examples are Tammy Bruce and Christopher Hitchens. Neither are conservative--Bruce is a lesbian feminist and Hitchens is a Stalinist atheist. They are both published by conservative magazines and exiled from liberal magazines, though Hitchens has made something of a comeback lately. I couldn't disagree with them more, except they found something out through their exile and are on the path set by David Horowitz and Ronald Radosh and a million others. It takes a lot of mugging to make a leftist see reality but it can be done, and the puritanically rigid dogmas of the left are making even the most dogmatic step back. The reason I mention all this is because of the absolutely close-minded way you describe conservatives in your post. Supposedly liberals are open-minded and free-thinking. At least every one I've ever met claimed to be, while simultaneously being as narrow-minded and reflexive as it is possible to be. Your picture comes right out of the liberal (even Democratic Party) stereotype, without any deviation at all. I could never be a liberal because I could never be so uncritical. You're perfectly right that most liberals (by which I mean illiberal leftists) see conservative anything as prefixed by "reactionary fundamentalist" but that proves nothing except their own bigotry. I don't think you are such a bigot. Jim Wilson aka the Laird Jim On Monday, Mar 31, 2003, at 11:15 America/Phoenix, Eric R. Samuelsen wrote: > I'm very interested in this question of conservative literary theory, > though I've felt constrained from joining this thread because, well, > I'm not a conservative. Here's where I see conservative literary > theory right now, though I think it's not what you're thinking of; > it's actually more a fundamentalist literary theory. It's a theory > based on the notion that there exits an absolute one-on-one > correlation between what one reads (or reads) and what one does. I > think of William Bennett, for example, and the Book of Virtues. The > theory there seems to be that there exist certain canonized texts, > 'classics,' which are called classics because they clearly and > unmistakably set our for us certain absolute moral principles. Read > the text, apply its moral to your life, and you're a better person, > and we're a better society. And most contemporary literature doesn't > have that, so it's best dismissed as exemplifying 'moral relativism.' > > Okay, I'm setting up Bennett as a straw man, and attacking his book > (which I've not read all the way through, though I have started > reading it a couple of times) and conservative theory along with it, > and that's not a nice thing to do. But guys like Michael Medved are > just that boneheaded, and when he comes to speak at BYU, he's SRO in > our biggest house. > > Now, let me also acknowledge of course that there's a lot of > boneheaded Marxist, Marxist feminist, radical feminist, radical > lesbian feminist, post-colonialist, Marxist post-colonialist and > radical lesbian Marxist post-colonialist feminist criticism floating > around the academy these days. I yield to no one in my admiration for > the infinite ability of academics to write idiotically. But that > criticism, a lot of the bad stuff, comes out of the same place that > Bennett seems to me to be coming from. I see it all the time in > professonal organizations I belong to: papers that point out that > David Mamet is clearly a sexist pig, because he doesn't write very > interesting female characters anyway, and besides he wrote Oleanna, a > play in which a professor gets fired because of a false accusation by > a feminist student, so he's a bad guy, so we can't let our students > read him or they're going to catch that oh-so-virulent sexist pig > virus. I'm not kidding; I've heard papers that bad. But the point is, > they're coming from the same critical stance really that Bennett is, > at least in my probably reductive and simplistic opinion. > > Point in part is, for a lotta folks, when you write 'conservative > literary theory' they read 'reactionary fundamentalist literary > theory.' I mean, conservatism is in part cultural, a reaction against > certain presumably retrograde cultural trends that can easily (and not > always inaccurately) be demonized as 'anti-family.' We see it a lot > in film criticism, or television criticism. In Mormon cultural > circles, there's a lot of anti-TV rhetoric and a lot of anti-Hollywood > rhetoric; it even surfaced here, on the List, when we got into the > R-rated movie thread (which believe me I don't want restarted). Like > it or not, that rhetoric is usually labeled 'conservative.' Bill > Bennett is usually labeled a 'conservative cultural critic.' > > If y'all don't want to go there, and I sense you don't, you need to > clarify that position. There are actual ideas behind the ideology > which we call political conservatism. Those ideas could well provide > the philosophical basis for literary criticism. So who are you > citing? 'Liberal' criticism, I gather, is the stuff derived from > Derrida and Foucault and Althuzzer and them thar guys. Real > philosophers, whose ideas have very broad implications and > applications, which is why post-modern and post-structuralist ideas > permeate every part of the academy. So who are your guys? Camille > Paglia, maybe? She's a self-declared pagan and lesbian, but she > loathes Foucault and is not an uninteresting thinker. Levinas? But > be careful there, we lefties have already claimed him. > > Interesting project, though. Keep us posted. > > Eric Samuelsen > > > > > > > > -- > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > > - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 16:21:44 -0500 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] AML-List Overload Folks, There are currently over 60 posts in the in-box. That's over two full days of messages. Many of these represent multiple posts from some of our most frequent (and valued) contributors to AML-List. Frankly, I'm not entirely certain what to do about the current situation. This comes at a time when I am swamped with work for the classes I'm teaching and for my own independent contracting. Dealing with things equitably--screening for only one or two posts per person, creating compilation posts, judging which of several posts from the same person is most AML-List-worthy--is time-consuming, and I don't have that time right now. What I will probably do is to try to do a bit of the above, as I'm able. Some messages may go into overflow; depending on list load, they may never make it out again. If you feel strongly about something that hasn't appeared after several days, email me again; I may have lost it. (Please include the text in the new message.) In the meantime, brief and/or off-topic messages are likely not to make it out. And please think and weigh, on your own, which of the various comments you might make is the one you care most about, and do some self-pruning in that respect. Thanks for your participation. I'm sorry if I sound dismayed; it's wonderful that the conversation is taking off so. And thanks also for your understanding. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 23:48:22 -0700 From: "Jen Wahlquist" Subject: RE: [AML] Books on the Bedside Table Richard Dutcher wrote: "I'm interested in hearing what you Mormon writers are reading at the moment, what novels you've enjoyed recently, and what novels you haven't enjoyed. It would be fun to get a quick snapshot of our collective reading." How lucky you are, those who have real time for reading! I'm trying not to be envious of your lists of currently read books. Mine will be more slender. Here's what I've read lately: Green Mars, by Kim Stanley Robinson (I know he won either the Hugo or the Nebula for his Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars series, and I enjoyed the first half of this one, but by the second half I was hoping for some sort of plot and/or character development to happen -- in addition to all the marvellous descriptions of taming the wild red planet. Unfortunately, he saves the action for the last 40 or 50 pages of a long book.) The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint, by Brady Udall (Apparently most people think this is a hysterically funny book. I did laugh a couple of times, but found more pathos than humor. Udall does write with fine style.) Alexander Hamilton: A Life, by a historian whose name I have forgotten. Same author who wrote Thomas Jefferson: A Life. Published 2003. (I read this so I could give a review for my mother's book club, and she asked to borrow it afterwards, so I can't look up the name. Anyway, the book presents a different view of Hamilton from that in McCullough's John Adams (Hamilton and Adams were political enemies). First chapter covers the fatal duel with Aaron Burr, then traces Hamilton's history from his illegitimate birth on a Caribbean sugar island to his education at King's College (later Columbia), to his fortunate marriage to an heiress, his service as George Washington's Aide de Camp during the Revolutionary War, and so on. I enjoyed reading the book, and now give Hamilton a familiar nod and sometimes a wink each time I spend a $10 bill.) William Cooper's Town: Power and Persuasion on the Frontier of the Early American Republic, by Alan Taylor. (Won the Pulitzer in 1995. A delightful read. Great detail. Taylor must have researched for five years, at least. William Cooper was the developer father of James Fenimore Cooper.) Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Volume 11, 2002. (Just arrived in the mail. Particularly enjoyed Diane Wirth's article on "Quetzalcoatl, the Maya Maize God, and Jesus Christ," probably because I occasionally include the Mayan Popul Vuh and Title of the Lords of Totonicapan in my World Mythology class, and see many clues to a possible history and influence of Christ in those ancient works.) Valhalla Rising, by Clive Cussler. (Picked this up at the grocery store on a whim. Typical adventure novel with lots of rising action and little, if any, character development. Cussler must have a lot of moxy to dare inserting himself as a character in his own novel. What haunted me was how parts of the novel foreshadowed 9-11, yet it was published a couple of months before.) A Natural History of Love, by Diane Ackerman. (Received this book as a gift last month, and am finding it to be better reading than expected. Actually, it's well-researched, well-written, and fascinating.) - --Jen Wahlquist - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 21:31:12 -0800 From: "Jongiorgi Enos" Subject: Re: [AML] BofM in Mormon Lit Alan Rex Mitchell: " So Sheri Dew is right, and conservative, to say they want books that show consequences. I am afraid of this kind of witchhunting, scared to death of it, because I don't trust the judge. But a critic maybe could analyze a book based on a "consequences" scale, as an intellectual exercise. The book of Mosiah could rate high on the scale because of Noah's death, but might score low because his priests got away with murder AND the Lamanite girls." Except that they didn't get away. 400 years later their descendents were still being hunted and burned at the stake whenever they were identified, in complete fulfillment of Abinadi's prophesy. So, "Mosiah" fits the bill: the ultimate comeuppance story. Jongiorgi Enos - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 00:00:01 -0700 From: "Eric Russell" Subject: RE: [AML] Conservative Literary Theory? In fact, that >might be an interesting way to define conservative literary theory. You >could call it neo-post-modernism--concerned with the distance separating >"other" while reaching out towards universal chaos-touched themes of shared >culture and identity. > >Jacob Proffitt > I like this "neo-post-modernism." But one thing I would add to the themes of shared culture and identity is shared responsibility. It seems like Derrida and friends, through their insistence on everyone as "other", have created a world of moral relativism where, as Derrida himself has said, "responsibility becomes irresponsible." I think an important part of conservatism is, not necessarily "family values" whatever that means, but some sense of shared responsibility that is inherent and relatively non-subjective. Basically, I think it tries to preserve some form of ethical grounding where liberalism has often let it float away. Eric Russell _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 23:49:56 -0800 From: Harlow S Clark Subject: [AML] Marden Clark Bibliography On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 07:15:56 -0500 "Kent S. Larsen II" writes: > > Harlow: > > Could you provide a bibliography of your father's work? > > I think many of us would love a list of what he wrote. > > Kent OK, thanks for asking. Here's a partial bibliography taken from the BYU Library Catalog, Church magazines cd, www.harktheherald.com, memory, and my collection of Irreantums. Some of the entries are incomplete. I thought I had a copy of his vitae on the cd backup I made of his files, but I don't find it. This doesn't include about 367 newspaper columns, an interview in Century 2 or Inscape, and a few other things. There are also quite a few unpublished poems and essays, and some stories. BOOKS Doctoral Dissertation on the novels of Robert Penn Warren PN 29.02 .C5384 1949 1949 (Masters thesis) Elements of Aristotelian tragedy in Melville's Moby Dick 808.04 Cla 1970 About language : contexts for college writers with Soren Cox and Marshall Craig AS 36 .B75 A2 vol.2 no.2 1972 (Redd monograph) Modern and classic: the "wooing both ways" PE 1417 .C624 1975 1975 About language: contexts for college writing 2d ed. with Soren Cox and Marshall Craig PS 3553 .L2864 M6 1979 (Poems) Moods: of late BX 8688.1 .P7518 1980 1980 Poems of praise : poems in commemoration of the one hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with Hart, Edward LeRoy, 1916- BX 8688.3 .C548 1984 1984 (Stories) Morgan triumphs AC 901 .A1a no.2189 1988 (Poetry chapbook) Christmas voices BX 8688.4 .C548L 1992 1992 Liberating form: Mormon essays about literature MSS SC 3015 1999 (Manuscript or typescript) Autobiography, 1999 Razor Sharp (unpublished collection of poems) I'd Rather Be . . . (unpublished collection of newspaper columns and essays touching on politics) POEMS BX 8605.1 .B76b vol.4 no.2 1964 (BYU Studies) Sunset BX 8605.1 .B76b vol. 1 no. 2 1962 (BYU Studies) Late on Mother's Day BX 8605.1 .B87b vol. 6 no. 3-4 1965 (BYU Studies) Late on Father's Day BX 8605.1 .B76b vol. 8 no. 1 1967 (BYU Studies) Sonnet: to peace BX 8605.1 .B76b vol. 8 no. 1 1967 (BYU Studies) Astronomy BX 8605.1 .B76b Vol. 14 no. 3 1974 (BYU Studies) Three poems To Kevin: Newly a Missionary, Ensign, Jan. 1976, 13 Too Late on Father's Day, Ensign, July 1977, 60 BX 8605.1 .D541 Vol.11 no.1 1978 (Dialogue) God's plenty BX 8605.1 .Su74 Vol.3 no.6 1978 (Dialogue) Wasatch BX 8605.1 .B76b Vol. 20 no. 1 1979 (Dialogue) Black hole BX 8605.1 .B76b Vol. 22 no. 4 1982 (Dialogue) Christmas voices BX 8605.1 .D541 vol.18 no.3 1985 (Dialogue) Lightning barbs BX 8605.1 .D541 vol.18 no.1 1985 (Dialogue) This is my body BX8605.1 .B76b Vol.25 no.1 1986 (BYU Studies) For the earth BX 8605.1 .D541 vol.21 no.2 1988 (Dialogue) August 6 Light Leaves, Irreantum 1:1 March 1999, 24 Living Words for Easter, Irreantum 1:1 March 1999, 23 BX 8605.1 .Su74 no.119 2001 (Sunstone) To Brian, lying dying ESSAYS BX 8605.1 .D541 vol.5 no.2 1970 (Dialogue) Some implications of human freedom BX 8605.1 .D541 vol.7 no.4 1972 (Dialogue) On the Mormon commitment to education BX 8605.1 .B76b Vol. 15 no. 1 1974 (BYU Studies) Liberating form Liberating Form, Ensign, June 1977, 43-45 BX 8605.1 .Su74 Vol.5 no.2 1980 (Sunstone) The new Mormon mysticism BX 8605.1 .Su74 Vol.7 no.6 1982 (Sunstone) Whose yoke is easy? BX8688 .P941 1979-82 1983 (AML Annual) Paradox and tragedy in Mormonism BX8688 .P941 1979-82 1983 (AML Annual) Toward a more perfect order within : being the confession of an unregenerate but not unrepentant mistruster of Mormon literature BX 8605.1 .D541 Vol.16 no.4 1983 (Dialogue) Toward a more perfect order within : being the confessions of an unregenerate but not unrepentant mistruster of Mormon literature BX8605.1 .D541 vol.20 no.3 1987 (Dialogue) "I'd rather be..." LITERARY CRITICISM BX 8605.1 .B76b vol.1 no.1 1959 (BYU Studies) The wages of sin in Hawthorne BX 8605.1 .B76b vol. 4 no. 1 1961 (BYU Studies) Religious implications in the novels of Robert Penn Warren BX8608 .A1 no.2579 1964 The conversions of God : a poem Larson, Clinton F., 1919- Tragic Effect in "The Hairy Ape" PS 2384 .M62 A1 no.133 1976 Blending cadences : rhythm and structure in Moby Dick BX 8605.1 .B76b Vol. 19 no. 2 1979 [Book review of] History as a tool in critical interpretation: a symposium Good-hearted Criticism from Goodheart, Literature and Belief (Review of a book by Eugene Goodheart) STORIES BX 8605.1 .D541 Vol.17 no.3 1984 (Dialogue) Much of a river Casino (unpublished) Aryan Jew (unpublished) Tim and Dringo, the Elf of the Spring-o (unpublished children's story) ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEWS UA OH 160 1985 Oral history, 1995-1991 Smith, Oliver R. UA OH 77 1982 Armin Hill oral history interview, may 25, 1982 Hill, Armin J, (Armin John), 1912- MATTER UNORGANIZED COLUMNS IN THE DAILY HERALD (the last 32 of about 400) (www.harktheherald.com) Momentous experiences in life adding up, January 05, 2002 Appreciation strengthened by great teachers, January 12, 2002 Stirring music can make simple words profound, January 19, 2002 New dryer adds headaches along with satisfaction, January 26, 2002 'Lord of the Rings' filled with symbolism, February 02, 2002 Reflection brings sorrow for large overindulgence, February 09, 2002 God doesn't see winner and losers, just his children, February 16, 2002 Weapons can't create security for the world, February 23, 2002 Olympic images bring pride over work well done, March 02, 2002 Learning a big lesson from a small creature, March 09, 2002 Spring's promise makes footsteps in the memory, March 16, 2002 Scripture adds meaning and richness to life, March 23, 2002 Neighbor leaves behind much to be pleased with, March 30, 2002 Easter deserves greatest thanks, notice from all, April 06, 2002 Knowledge helps prevent, solve daily challenges, April 13, 2002 Car accident reaffirms faith in Lord's love, April 20, 2002 Lack of guile makes 'uncle' memorable, April 27, 2002 Difference in homes, houses sparks memory, May 04, 2002 Saving three ducklings brings man satisfaction, May 11, 2002 Bees' residence in walls of home gets split review, May 18, 2002 Birds' openness counters masked human nature, May 25, 2002 Bees' presence provides chance for education, June 01, 2002 Two tree stumps reminders of good friendship, June 08, 2002 Beauty apparent in many different forms of creation, June 15, 2002 Quiet time gives opportunity to appreciate family, June 22, 2002 Reflection on beliefs caused by observing nature, June 29, 2002 Dreams mirror experiences in our memories, July 06, 2002 New marriage is the melding of two families, July 13, 2002 Difficult births show dichotomy of Lord's plans, July 20, 2002 Common bond breaks the walls between religions, July 27, 2002 Marion Hanks endeared by life of serving others, August 03, 2002 Way man lived his life recalled after final hours, August 10, 2002 ABOUT BX 8605.1 .D541 vol.13 no.3 1980 (Dialogue) [Book review of] Moods : Of late, by Marden J. Clark Bradford, Mary Lythgoe, 1930- BX 8605.1 .Su74 Vol.6 no.3 1981 (Sunstone) [Book review of] Moods : of late, by Marden Clark Saderup, Dian. BX 8605.1 .Su74 vol.13 no.2 1989 (Sunstone) [Book review of] Christmas voices, by Marden J. Clark; Tinder dry poems, by Dennis Marden Clark; A Zipper of haze, by Timothy Liu Collings, Michael R. BX 8605.1 .D541 vol.23 no.1 1990 (Dialogue) [Book review of] A zipper of haze, by Timothy Liu ; Tinder, by Dennis Marden Clark ; Christmas voices, by Marden J. Clark Christmas, R. A. ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 00:37:12 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] BofM in Mormon Lit >-----Original Message----- >There's lots of great stuff in the story of Ammon and Lamoni, >what with >dis-arming the sheep thieves, a king apparently dying and >coming back to >life, and so on. As explored in my play, A Sceptre, A Sword, A Scented Rose, first performed at BYU in 1973. Great story. And I had a lot of fun taking a story that's only two chapters in the BofM and turning into a two and one half hour play. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:23:42 -0600 From: "Lisa Tait" Subject: Re: [AML] Yale Mormonism Conference Seeing announcements for things like this just kills me because I want to be there! Please, oh please, keep us updated, anyone, if you hear of the proceedings being published, links to articles about the conference, etc. Or if anyone on the list was able to be there, I for one would appreciate hearing more about what happened, off list if it's not topical enough. Lisa Tait - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:38:35 -0700 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] _Stones_ Performances At 11:53 AM 4/2/03 -0700, you wrote: >You've got at least one person out here who is dying to see the show, but >I'm pretty much attached to a little baby at present. I'm looking forward to >when she's old enough to leave with a baby sitter for date night! How about this? Leave hubby with baby. It's his baby, too. He's not baby-sitting, he's doing his job. Go to the show with a girlfriend, or with a slew of girlfriends. This play is great. The performances are great. Take lots and lots of tissues. I saw this show last night for the second time, and was just as moved as the first time. This time I was prepared, and distributed tissues to audience members around me. Best thing--Scott gave me a hug after the play. Barbara R. Hume Provo, Utah - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:57:04 -0700 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Video Rights & The Mona Lisa At 10:55 PM 4/2/03 -0800, you wrote: >Just as Irreantum only picks up a = >few rights when they agree with you to publish your short story (First >North American English Language Serial Rights, and nothing more), you have >only acquired a few rights when you bought the tape or DVD. For me, this brings up a point totally unrelated to what Jon is trying to get across. If Irranteum publishes a work of mine, what rights do they have, since they didn't buy any rights? Is it simply a gentleman's agreement that I won't publish it anywhere else before it appears in Irranteum? Barbara R. Hume Provo, Utah - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:50:43 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Video Rights & The Mona Lisa This was a great little diatribe by Jongiorgio, and I learned a lot from = it. My question is this; you bought the videotape, and with it, certain = rights. But you also bought a thing, an artifact. I mean, if I use the = videotape to tie up a burglar, that's okay, right, because it has nothing = to do with viewing the movie. =20 So . . .can I take a pair of scissors and hack up the tape any old way and = then splice it back together, and then throw it away. . . . So . . . can I hack it up, splice it back together, then watch it, then = throw it away. . . .=20 So . . . can I watch it, hack it up, splice it together, watch it, then = keep it . . .=20 I'm with you, first, in that I don't want the Cleanflicks thread restarted,= and second, in that I could care less about the Cleanflicks case, because = it does not and never will have anything to do with my life. I just think = it's intriguing to get your perspective on where the law draws the = line.=20 Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:54:54 -0700 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Author's Omniscience Jongiorgi Enos wrote: On a completely side note, I am VASTLY curious as to the additions that Margaret is going to add to her novelization of BC. Marilyn Brown writes: Again, I am totally honored to be mixed up with Margaret Young. She's still my twin, only Young and gorgeous, etc. I appreciated these questions from Mr. Enos! He's very astute. Nobody knows everything. And guess what? Our language gets in the way of whatever we do know. So it's all a crap shoot. But I am enjoying coming closer to MY VIEW. Cheers! Lurker, (and author of BC, the novel), Marilyn Brown - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:52:06 -0700 From: "Eugene Woodbury" Subject: [AML] Re: Wanting to Be Jews I'm sure (as from reading some of O.S. Card's missives on the subject, not personal experience) that there are Baptist/Evangelical strongholds where Mormons are singled out for vituperation, but Jews and Catholics are just as, or more, likely to be on the receiving end of that kind of enmity. But for the most part, I wouldn't even say we are misunderstood. Let alone hated. I grew up in New York, and nobody I knew (the other 99 percent of the population) hated Mormons. They didn't know who we were, to start with. I lived far enough east of Palmyra that the average person was less informed about Mormons than he was about, say, Sikhs. It's because of those real-world demographics that the only discernable Mormon "culture" remains that of Utah. This is reinforced by the narrow definition of who a "real" Mormon is--most commonly a species of "Utah Mormon." A Jew/Catholic/Buddhist/Muslim, to compare, does not have his religious beliefs or culture pre-determined or pre-assigned by where or whether he shows up for worship services, or whether or to what theological hierarchy he swears allegiance. (That may determine your membership in a sect of the religion, but not any kind of right to belong to the larger religion and exercise its rites.) Of course, we assert that Mormon theology is identifiably unique, though it often seems to be a state secret. When I attended BYU in the early 1980s, it was still part and parcel of every GA's message that we were peculiar in our beliefs, in our religious culture, and if the world out there didn't like it, tough. Be proud of the fact. But by the time I had graduated we were no longer a "peculiar people"; we were "the same only different," with an emphasis on "mostly the same." Since then, this trend has only become more marked. Nowadays, you're only likely to hear of Mormon theology outside of a strictly Mormon context when some outside group objects to the execution of this or that tenet. And so far, the church has gone out of its way to accommodate those complaints and assuage the complainers. It doesn't strike me as a good way to create the identifiable religious culture you need to build the symbolic language that a catholic artistic vision (i.e., reaching beyond the Wasatch Front) demands. At the same time (reserving the right to contradict myself), I think if we simply stopped apologizing for our religious language, most people would stop being put off by it. If George Lucas can invent a half-baked theology and get millions of kids to start counting the number of Jedi angels on the head of a pin, then I think most people could easily grasp the technicalities of Mormon society without overt explication. It reminds me of a genre of pop-anthropology best sellers in Japan during the 1980s called Nihonjin-ron, which basically argued that the Japanese were so unique that only the Japanese could appreciate how special they really were. Well, no. [Eugene Woodbury] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 11:52:54 -0700 (MST) From: Fred C Pinnegar Subject: Re: [AML] Artists' Personal Lives See Barbara's comment below. My response: In my Poetry of the Restpred Gospel class, we recently explored Joseph Smith as the kind of poet described by Emerson in his essay on the personality and character of the artist (The Poet). There, the artist is described as the knower, the doer, and the sayer. Similarly, the seer (another term for poet in the Romantic period) is one who sees things more clearly and deeply and accurately than other people and articulates that vision to others. I don't think the artist is above the laws of man and God, but he often moves rapidly beyond them, tracing, as Thoreau suggests in Civil Disobedience, the currents of the bible and constitution back to their source. The poet is like the automaton in Blade-Runner who said, "I've seen things." This does not mean that you have to go out and deliberately break laws so you can have horrific experiences to talk about, but it does mean that the writer has to be, as Henry James says, a person upon whom nothing is lost. There is sufficient horror (or humor) in normal, every day life to fill volumes. Emily Dickinson, living the life of a nun, saw it all. Seeing things, however, is not without its cost, and that is why there are so many maimed and wounded poets and artists among us. The price of the vision may be the eye that beheld it. No one knows this better than Paris, and the isolation he feels is the same as that poet who said: A damsel with a dulcimer In a vision once I saw: for the response to him is the same: "His flashing eyes, his floating hair! Weave a circle round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honey-dew hath fed, And drunk the milk of paradise. Regards, Fred Pinnegar > At 08:58 PM 3/29/03 -0700, you wrote: > >But I believe the expectations we have of artists as human beings must > >be different from the rest. They must be freer to see the truth and > >point it out, or truth will not be fully seen. They must be freer to > >explore and understand the ugliness of the human condition, even if it > >means personal experience, or the ugliness will never be recognized and > >rooted out--it will fester and grow and destroy countless lives. > > Freer in what way? Surely you don't mean free of the moral laws that govern > people. It's been tyrants and oppressors like Napoleon who've said that > they were different--that the laws applying to "ordinary" people were not > meant for them. An artist or writer or musician or filmmaker is no more > justified in deliberately sinning than is anyone else. Your comment implies > that only the artist is capable of saving civilization, based on his > having wallowed in the gutter. I don't like the typical meek and mild LDS > literature any more than you do, but anytime someone says that he should > not be subject to the same laws as everyone else, I think he needs to think > carefully about that viewpoint. > > barbara hume - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 12:08:53 -0700 From: Margaret Young Subject: RE: [AML] BofM in Mormon Lit I have my students write stories about the scriptural characters we don't hear much about--or at least from a perspective we don't usually get (such as Goliath's or Delilah's or Leah's). The results have been occasionally good, but I would say that for the most part, it is dangerous for writers to take on a world they don't know. Often, I get dialogue with lots of "thee's" and "thou's" in it--and it almost always feels created, not a thing like real speech. The writer's imagination seems to strain towards bringing people to life without much understanding of their real contexts. Frankly, I think it's a dangerous prospect. Though I've seen the exercise bring about a few good stories, I would highly recommend against anyone trying to do a whole novel based on these stories. We get into problems of hero worship, clich=E9, and message-over-content. Now that I think of it, David Woolley has already written some novels set in or around the Book of Mormon, as has another guy--who was going to do 46 volumes, right? I haven't read any of their works. Do they have problems with the things I've identified? ________________ Margaret Young 1027 JKHB English Department Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602-6280 Tel: 801-422-4705 Fax: 801-422-0221 =20 - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:54:58 EST From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Video Rights & The Mona Lisa In a message dated 4/3/03 9:28:32 PM Mountain Standard Time, jongiorgi@sunset.net writes: > "When asked about movie editing by companies like Clean Flicks, in order = > to make more family friendly films, Dutcher had this to say, "I don't = > like it, but I recognize their right to do it." Then he gave an example = > that you could buy the "Mona Lisa" and then by rights destroy it because = > it's yours, but that doesn't make it right." > > Okay. Let's get something straight.. > > Buying a video is absolutely NOTHING like buying the Mona Lisa. There is = > absolutely no legal equivalent.=20 > Jon, Had the rest of my comments regarding this controversy been printed, you would have seen that I explained much the same thing. In this quoted section of my comments, I was merely trying to communicate one's freedom to do whatever one wants with one's own bought-and-paid-for property, whether it is one of 10 million copies of "Titanic" or the original Mona Lisa. Richard Dutcher - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V2 #9 ****************************