From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V2 #73 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, June 4 2003 Volume 02 : Number 073 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 22:35:48 -0400 From: "Richard Johnson" Subject: [AML] RE: Restrictions on Being Alone I confess that I, the most conservative of the conservative have generally ignored this guideline all my life, and don't expect to change now. Richard Johnson - -----Original Message----- barbara states, regarding car rides with the opposite sex: I think this guideline is insulting to men. It implies that they are all closet rapists and must never be given an opportunity to take advantage of a woman. It is so Victorian. barbara hume - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:24:07 -0700 From: "Susan Malmrose" Subject: [AML] Re: Memorial Day > On a related note: Over the weekend it occurred to me to wonder whether > there is a particularly Mormon way of observing Memorial Day. For us it was > always a day to pile in the car and drive down to Carbon and Emery counties > to 'decorate' the graves of our ancestors, always with flowers from our own > yard of course. I was at least 25 years old before it dawned on me that > Memorial Day was supposed to be a patriotic holiday. For me, it was a day of > remembering and honoring our ancestors. Is this a Mormon thing? Or a > generational thing? Anybody know anything about how Memorial Day has been > perceived and observed over the years? This interests me so I took a quick glance around online. Memorial Day started out as a way of honoring those who died in the Civil War, but it isn't clear where and when the actual first observance of it happened. One web page I came across said this: "In recent years, it has also become a special day to honor family members and friends who we wish to remember - regardless of whether or not they served the in the armed forces." http://www.birthdayexpress.com/bexpress/planning/MemorialDay.asp My family never did anything for Memorial Day when I was growing up. (My family isn't LDS anyway.) But I've tried to make it the day I go and visit the graves of my brother, sister and nephew. I have a thing for cemeteries, though, and also usually visit Jimi Hendrix's grave. Disappointed I didn't have a chance to do it this year. Susan M - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:09:37 -0700 From: "Susan Malmrose" Subject: Re: [AML] Dan BROWN, _The Da Vinci Code_ > Isn't it a very common Mormon belief that indeed M. Magdalene was the > > Savior's earthly wife--in fact, one of several? > > Bruce McConkie's sister Margaret Pope is our Sunday School teacher and > happened to mention that very "common Mormon belief" in our Sunday school > class last Sunday. And sisters Mary and Martha were also his wives! YES! But > does anyone know the story that after his resurrection he ended up in France > with a huge family of kids and that's why the "cloth" ended up in Turin? > Marilyn Brown (having returned to the list for a time!). All of my husband's LDS family members believe it, I'm pretty sure. Although I can remember his grandmother telling me Christ couldn't have been married to Mary Magdalene because she had been a prostitute. It had to have been Mary and Martha. I always figured a former prostitute is just who Christ would have married. Although of course it's not necessarily true that she was one. I personally do tend to believe he was married and had children. But it's not something that's very important to me at this point. I have had the possibility of it taught to me in Gospel Doctrine class before (the reasons why it would have been likely). Susan - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 00:30:28 EDT From: Cathrynlane@cs.com Subject: [AML] Leif ENGER, _Peace Like A River_ [Cathryn's thread title: Why Can't We Write Something Like This?] I've just finished reading LEIF ENGER, "Peace Like A River", and while I felt no need to shake my fist at the heavens shouting "agghh" because Kushner could write something brilliant like "Angles in America" I am envious and covetous of Enger's ability to produce the kind of novel I hope that someone LDS could someday produce. "Peace Like A River" is about the kind of faith that produces miracles in the lives of ordinary and even flawed people. Without a bit of preaching it persuades the reader to at least wonder what it would be like if they, like the narrator, believed. Ruben Land is the novel's asthmatic protagonist. His father, Jerimiah, is a true believer in the King James Bible and possessed of a Brother of Jared sort of faith and the ability to exercise that faith to bring about large and small miracles, mostly healings. Add a brother who lures two teenaged predators to his home in order to murder them, a little sister who confronts life by composing cowboy epics in rhymed verse, an air stream trailer, burning seams of coal and a few other unusual but fully believable characters. Whenever I raved about this book to friends they would ask, "What's it about?" I would start to relate the plot and it sounded weird to me, too, but don't let the weirdness keep you from reading it. There seems to be no desire to mask the religious nature of the story and the straight forward storytelling seems to appeal to many; it's sold well and won awards. The fictional Ruben frequently tells us that he doesn't expect the reader to believe his tale but he is compelled to tell it as he knows it. Maybe that tone is what makes this so successful and what LDS storytellers need to learn how to do. I can't help but compare "Peace" to NORMAN MCLEAN "A River Runs Through It". Both relate religious life and thought as an essential part of the story in a matter of fact way. The best example I know of, in Mormon literature, which integrates someone's religious struggles into the story is "Brigham City", but I think the writing in "Peace Like A River" is far more beautiful. (Of course BC is a movie and PLAR a novel, sort of like comparing apples and oranges and not exactly fair.) Too many of our LDS novels seem want to end with a baptism, conversion or at least repentance. We so much want to convince and convert the world that the greatest amount of our literature is dressed up missionary tracts. Mormon audiences might have a problem with the religious faith of the father in this story producing the miracles that the character Ruben witnesses and receives. I think many LDS people would be unwilling to acknowledge that a non priesthood holder could produce genuine, from the Lord results. I would have reacted that way a few years ago but I've spent the last ten years rubbing shoulders with Arkansas church goers (non LDS) and found many to be deeply committed to Christ, full of faith and some of the finest folk I've ever known. Since early childhood I've gauged my favorite books by how they make me feel. When I get a good one I have a warm, full, satisfied feeling in my midsection. I think it's exactly how I felt when as an infant I was fed, dry and warm and cared for. I've become more sophisticated in my evaluation of literature over the years but once in a while I can still find one that produces that feeling. It feeds my soul and I translate that feeling into my first, best comfort. "Peace Like A River" feeds me. I hope that we could somehow get this caliber of literature produced, heck, I think that Deseret Book would even sell it. Cathryn Lane - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:19:29 -0500 From: lajackson@juno.com Subject: [AML] Re: Restrictions on Being Alone Barbara Hume: [on riding in cars with the opposite sex} I think this guideline is insulting to men. It implies that they are all closet rapists and must never be given an opportunity to take advantage of a woman. It is so Victorian. _______________ I figure there's no sense finding out if you're right or not. [grin] Actually, aside from some temptation to which more are susceptible than they think, I believe it has to do with perceptions. Brother Smith and Sister Jones (not their real names, of course) drove up to Church one Sunday. Her husband was out of town and his wife was ill. I shook her hand and said, "Good morning, Sister Smith." She never rode alone with him again. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 04:36:14 +0000 From: "Carrie Pruett" Subject: [AML] re: Restrictions on Being Alone >barbara states, regarding car rides with the opposite sex: >I think this guideline is insulting to men. It implies that they are all >closet rapists and must never be given an opportunity to take advantage of >a woman. It is so Victorian. you know, this is one of the things that strikes me as most lamentable among the social "non-doctrine doctrines" that circulate within the Church. possibilities for male/female friendship are SO constricted, starting with the merrie miss/blazer divide when you're what? Ten? The implication that men and women don't really have anything to offer each other outside of marital, family, or home teacher/priesthood holder type relationships seems absolutely pervasive in the church. I haven't been active in the church for a decade (since my freshman year in college), I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in my generation (mid twenties), outside of the church (or some other religions of course), who think that sharing a house or apartment, much less a car ride, with someone of the opposite sex is a big deal - or that it makes them any more or less likely to have sex with each other -but I never even considered forming serious platonic friendships with men until my mid 20s - whereas, among others in my generation, and even moreso with people a little younger than me, it seems much more common. I'm sure this is partly an individual thing, but I think it is tied to the church. We're trained early on to see boys as either potential mates and priesthood holders or potential sexual predators (and, even creepier, both at once -) I've even heard sacrament talks asserting that a married person who has close friends of the opposite sex is committing a form of adultery. what's up with this? Mission rules are one thing, but what about grownups with individual judgment? Have others had similar experiences with intergender friendships in or out of the church? It seems that this issue could present its own challenges in writing for or about Mormons, quite aside from the SSA issue. Carrie _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:03:25 -0600 From: robertslaven@shaw.ca Subject: Re: [AML] Dan BROWN, _The Da Vinci Code_ > From: "Brown" > Subject: Re: [AML] Dan BROWN, _The Da Vinci Code_ > > Isn't it a very common Mormon belief that indeed M. Magdalene was the > > Savior's earthly wife--in fact, one of several? > > Bruce McConkie's sister Margaret Pope is our Sunday School teacher and > happened to mention that very "common Mormon belief" in our Sunday > schoolclass last Sunday. And sisters Mary and Martha were also his > wives! YES! But > does anyone know the story that after his resurrection he ended up > in France > with a huge family of kids and that's why the "cloth" ended up in > Turin?Marilyn Brown (having returned to the list for a time!). > That latter idea (although I can't remember if they referred to the Shroud of Turin in it) was well-explored in an odd book, _The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail_. Forget the authors, but it was very popular in the 1980's, and is still widely available. The idea was that the Holy Grail ('san graal', perhaps) wasn't really a cup. It was really the Holy Blood ('sang real' in French), i.e. the (biological) descendants of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene. Talk about which European royal families were attached (Merovingians, whoever they were, figure prominently). Whoever got set up as King of Jerusalem for the brief period when the Crusaders successfully occupied Palestine was supposedly the 'true heir'. Lots about the Knights Templar, secret Masonic rituals, etc. etc. I think a lot of the book is pretty fudgy, but there are some interesting tidbits. (Their supposition that Jesus didn't really die on the cross, but merely suffered from a particular kind of shock before he was taken down and recovered, for example, is no surprise.) And, of course, they're not the only ones to have pursued such a line. (In fact, didn't Meridian Magazine just have an article about a genealogical relationship between the House of David and the House of Windsor? Didn't read it, just saw a title in an e-mail from them. Probably worth a look.) Robert - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:40:54 -0700 From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] SSA in Mormon Lit Amelia, Thanks for an opportunity that I think will help me answer you and also be certain to relate it somehow to literature. Your question is interesting and I hope I can answer it clearly. As I said, I'm not necessarily an advocate of the theory myself, but the majority of my SSA friends do subscribe to it, so I hear it a lot. It seems to work for them, but since I haven't tried it for myself, cannot vouch for it. I can relate to much of the theory. I'm just not sold on the therapy that is based on the theory. I will use myself to answer your question. First, the theory doesn't say that SSA men are not part of the masculine world. It says they don't feel part of the masculine world. It's one word, but it changes the meaning a great deal. This kind of SSA man, according to the theory, is the one who was always picked last for sports, couldn't ever get good at basketball, liked doing the things that society tells him is not masculine. He doesn't feel connected. Other males seem like a mystery to him. Then there are those that not only feel apart from the male world, but feel abused by it. My father abandoned my mother when she was pregnant with me. Because my mother had to go to work to support us, she left me with her sister and her mother while she worked. For the first three years of my life, I was nurtured and cared for completely in a world populated almost exclusively by women. When my mother married my stepfather when I was three, there was, in his family, an older male who beat and molested me for six years. My stepfather believed that boys should show neither emotion nor affection. All of the men in my life were harsh or abusive. All of the women were caring and kind. So, if the theory is correct, you add to my sense that men are the mysterious other the idea that things masculine are evil and hurtful, and you have a boy who is attracted to males but also afraid of them. I rejected masculinity. My attractions were to men who seemed kind and confident. It would not have mattered what they considered their sexual orientation to be. It only mattered that they didn't act like what I thought men were like. This played out in my choice of literature and media. Edmund Dantes had me going both ways. I loved how he tried to bless the lives of those he loved, but his vengeance scared me. Edmund Dantes had more effect on me that any character in all of literature. I read Alexandre DUMAS, _The Count of Monte Cristo_ (unabridged) when I was fifteen. It was in him I learned the futility of revenge and the sweetness of service. When the good in Dantes won out, I decided what I would do with my life and my past. Oddly, if I had any enjoyment of female characters at all, it was the bad girl of a story. I dearly loved Milady. Hated it when the musketeers paid to have her head chopped off and sent her down the river. I enjoyed fictional characters who were the opposite of my notions of what people were really like. Now, Amelia, as with anything that attempts to explain human behavior, you will always find exceptions. A friend once said to me, "I always loved manly men. Fems make me ill. I would be attracted to a man I thought was very masculine. If I tried to seduce him and he had sex with me, I would hate him for doing something so unmasculine as having sex with me." Poor guy. He's in a bind. "Masculine" does not at all imply "straight." That's a stereotype that doesn't hold very well, but just check the personal ads to see that the preferences and biases in the gay world are plentiful. How many men in the male-to-male section advertise themselves as "straight-acting" or want someone who is straight acting? It's highly desirable to be straight acting. Like you, I am attracted to gay or straight and always masculine, but if I had not chosen a different life, I would only pursue that attraction with someone I thought would be willing to cooperate with it. So, yes, despite being attracted to masculinity, gay men are going to be attracted to each other. They may be attracted to straight men too, but the potential for it going anywhere isn't there, so why waste time with it? Rex Goode - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 18:25:29 -0700 From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] SSA in Mormon Lit Jonathan asked me to enumerate some of the different theories about the origins of same-sex attraction. Well, of course there's the old born-that-way theory which has two variations. 1. A genetic component 2. A prenatal component Though it may be slow in reaching Utah, the idea of a gay gene is rapidly losing support in the gay community. They're not saying there isn't a gay gene and they're not saying there is. They aren't pushing it anymore as an explanation of how people become sexually attracted to their own gender. Why? Well, the Human Genome Project. If someone ever identifies a gay gene and invents a way to erase it _in vitro_, parents will be able to prevent homosexual children. Wouldn't that be an interesting Future-Shock novel? This fear was brought home to me by a lesbian guest speaker in a class about cultural diversity. She is considered a leader in this area. She said that finding a gay gene could very easily bring about the end of queer culture and she was not in favor of holding to the argument that people are born homosexual. Interestingly, she still believes that her homosexuality is inevitable enough to have divorced her husband the moment she realized she was a lesbian. She saw no other way. If they don't want to hold out hope for the discovery of a gay gene, then there must be something that happens to a fetus that causes it. Believing that allows you to keep a born-that-way stance, but it also opens up another potential threat to queer culture. If someone finds out what trauma might cause it in the womb and women are guaranteed the right to an abortion, parents may opt to abort gay fetuses. Imagine a story about a future Mormon couple who go to the obstetrician and are told that their baby will be born gay and are offered an abortion. [MOD: Wow! Now *that's* a speculative fiction idea!] So, if it isn't genetic and it isn't prenatal, that leaves the idea of a lifestyle choice. Well, that's where I've been for a long time, but it doesn't sell well with me, because if I know one thing, I did not ever consciously choose to be the way I am. Granted, I did choose how I would deal with it, but there was not some pivotal moment where I decided I'd be gay. There was only the defining moment where I knew that the teachings of the Church about marriage and eternity were true, and that I had to choose whether my sexual orientation or my testimony would guide my choices. In many ways, it confounds me that the gay community doesn't latch onto an environmental cause as its preferred explanation. There is still room in such an explanation to hang upon it calls for tolerance, respect, and equal rights. There is still room to say they don't know what causes it but that people should respect their right to choose how they will deal with it. Some say that gender affirmative therapy is dangerous and harmful. Well, I know dozens of men who have gone through it and feel it did them a lot of good. It's not for me, but I support their right to seek whatever kind of therapy they want. A case could be made for the availability of gay affirmative therapy, which seeks to help a person "come out" and be comfortable with his or her sexuality. Right now, the American Psychological Association has made gay affirmative therapy the only acceptable treatment. Their _Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders_ (DSM-IV) elimated any reference to homosexuality as a treatable condition. A leader in the fight to have that alteration was a Dr. Robert L. Spitzer. Many years later, in an attempt to settle the question, he conducted a study that showed his own original opinion to be wrong. He found men who actually had changed their orientation sufficiently to allow them to marry women and become fathers. The APA rejected his research, one of their own most eminent researchers. DSM-V is due to come out. I wonder if his name will even appear in the prominent position it has occupied in the past. The entire question of the genesis of homosexual feelings if far more political than scientific. A final theory about causality that I find interesting as it relates to the masculinity discussion. Some have adopted the view that homosexual men are not less masculine, but are hyper-masculine.Imagine some surge of testosterone in the male fetus at some point in development that causes a change to the way his little brain operates, elevating him to a new level of masculinity that needs a male sexual partner. To my way of thinking, it sets up an ugly hierarchy with homosexual men at the top and straight women at the bottom: hypermasculine males attracted down to masculine males; masculine males attracted down to lesbians or straight women; lesbian (masculine women) attracted down to straight (feminine) women. Conjures up imagines of a grim future society as well. Rex Goode - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:39:35 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Narrative Choices My bad. I used the word "also" but had meant to write "almost." The "almost" being what President Bartlett's advisors thought the lie would amount to. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 21:15:10 -0500 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] RE: Sickbed Reading & Viewing (Comp 2) [MOD: This is a compilation post.] >From barbara@techvoice.com Fri May 30 17:58:13 2003 At 05:56 PM 5/30/03 -0500, you wrote: >. Try Georgette Heyer. . . She had extensive contemporary records from >the period and a compulsive need to research that give her books a depth >that less fastidious authors lack. >I'd personally recommend _The Grand Sophy_ as the strongest of her >books, though >I'm sure others on the list would suggest others. The Grand Sophy is definitely one of her best. The Unknown Ajax is another favorite of mine. They are not too heavy on the romance element, so they appeal to readers who are Real Men. Right now I'm reading Regency Buck, in which the second chapter gives a rather gruesomely detailed description of an actual boxing match between Cribb and Molyneaux. As for the suggestion about reading trashy romance novels . . . you might try reading the untrashy ones instead. Watch Midnight Run only if you're totally desensitized to the f-word. The story is good and the acting is marvelous (Grodin is seriously underrated), but the language definitely drives me right out of the room. barbara hume - --------------------------------------- >From eew@eewoodbury.com Sat May 31 12:12:22 2003 I second My Neighbor Totoro, and recommend three more Hayao Miyazaki titles (excellent dubs produced by Miramax/Disney) currently available: Spirited Away - If you want to know where the spirit of Walt Disney currently resides, it's at Studio Ghibli in Japan. This year's Academy award winner for best animated feature film. (Watch for the dust bunnies from Totoro.) Princess Mononoke - the most sophisticated "eco-drama" ever made, IMHO. Set during Japan's medieval period. Miyazaki acknowledges that preservation and progress can never be truly reconciled, and never preaches. Kiki's Delivery Service - begins by positing that witches can fly, but that's not what it's about. Takes place in that ideal European Mediterranean city that we all know must exist somewhere. Also seconded: Krzysztof Kieslowski's Red. Books: A collected Chandler and Conan Doyle should always be close by. Braum Stoker's Dracula is a thumping good read, and a reminder how faithful Joss Whedon actually was to the original. Yes, this triology could be classified as fantasy, but comparable to Lewis's Narnia series. Pullman takes as his source material Milton's Paradise Lost and turns heaven on its head: His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman 1. The Golden Compass 2. The Subtle Knife 3. The Amber Spyglass Three more great young adult novels: Blood and Chocolate (Annette Curtis Klaus) The Killer's Cousin (Nancy Werlin) Owl in Love (Patrice Kindl) More fantasy (though it is contemporary, like Buffy): each of K.A. Applegate's 12-part "Everworld" series (beginning with The Search for Senna) is a fast, fun read. And you will learn more about world mythology than you thought you knew. Speaking of Y/A fiction, two of my favorite teen-angst movies. Christian Slater stars in both, and could be taken for a young Jack Nicholsen in the second: Pump up the Volume Heathers Eugene Woodbury - ----------------------------------------- >From ddgraham@netutah.net Sat May 31 16:36:43 2003 Hey, Eric! First, I just wanted to say that we had a blast at Rule a Wife, Have a Wife. It's exciting to see so much talent taking that many risks at one time. It also made me reminiscent of a particular Greek piece I was in years ago, where I had the opportunity to flex my muscles in more ways than one. Sad to say it, but I miss college a little. I need to go back again someday... I'd like to recommend a few of my favorites, and if I'm lucky, you've not seen a couple of them. Well, first of all, Eric, I recommend that you have a Kathryn Hepburn and Merryl Streep fest. For that matter, make sure to throw in a little bit of Christopher Walken. He's so special. The Hepburn fest must include Suddenly Last Summer (just for creepy hoots), The Rainmaker (for the quaintness of the piece), The Lion in Winter (mais oui), and The Madwoman of Chaillot (and then you have to tell me how that movie is, because I haven't actually seen it but it sounds to so good!). Merryl movies - well, you've probably seen all of these, but definitely include her two Oscar winners if you're just in the mood to bask in Merryl. But, you must also include Postcards from the Edge and Defending Your Life for the sheer fun of it. And on the Christopher Walken note, if you're not too susceptible to depression, The Deer Hunter is one of my all-time favorites. Did I tell you that the first time I saw that one I sobbed for over an hour, from about the time DeNiro returned to the US w/out Walken to the breakfast scene after the funeral? I believe the word is actually convulsing (especially during the Russian roullette scene - the second one, not the first). So maybe you're not in a crying mood. If you're willing to only watch part of a film, Blast from the Past has some of my favorite Walken moments. But, as you likely know, the second half of the movie is really not worth watching. Some other nice ones are Persuasion (if you're feeling romantic), Enchanted April (if you're depressed), Kurosawa's Dreams (if you desire to see Scorcese in a straw hat), Burnt by the Sun (exquisite - you must have seen and loved it), AND (if you need cheering up)Buffy the Vampire Slayer (the movie) and The Money Pit. Hey, if you want to borrow my Buffy seasons one through three, they're yours. :) I'll stop now, but I really wish we could all have a movie fest at your house. That would be fun. We'd all wait on you hand and foot while we invade your home. Oh, yeah, when you get in the mood for some very fun light reading, definitely read everything ever published by Salinger (especially the ones about the Glass family). Love, Dianna Graham - --------------------------------------------- >From rhammett@hiwaay.net Mon Jun 02 22:03:50 2003 Eric Dixon mentioned Gaiman's _American Gods_--I found it a fascinating read. I'm a moderate Gaiman fan; his _Neverwhere_ is one of the best books I've ever read. _Good Omens_ (with Pratchett) and _Gods_ were fascinating, too. He can construct a world that seems familiar, and then shift it about 60 degrees into a place nearly entirely Other. The London of _Neverwhere_...the US of _Gods_...They seem _more_ real than the London and US that I'm familiar with. It's not an alternate history thing, not Card's Alvin Maker series or anything by Turtledove. Things aren't that different, and they are contemporary. Card nearly completely fails to create this type of...depth for me in Alvin Maker. I keep reading Alvin Maker to see what happens next in the chain of events, similar to why I read Harry Potter. In reading _Neverwhere_ I wanted to be there, I was there. But it's not because Gaiman creates a pretty place. I've not read his comics, but as far as I know, he's stuck to dark places. And sometimes they're too dark for me. Vivisection in _Neverwhere_. The wife's death scene in _Gods_, which is almost the glue that holds the book together...it was too much for me. I almost stopped reading the book. I don't know if the brutality contributes to the amazing depth I experience when I read his books -- superficially, I don't see that it does. I haven't read Evenson's stuff--has anybody read both, and can you tell me if there's any similarity? Does the violence actually make me like the book better, even though I can barely read it? As for other sickbed reading, Terry Pratchett is one of the best satirists ever. He's written around 30 books, most set in his fantasy setting "Discworld", which he is careful to tell us has no relation to the roundworld we're familiar with. I'd recommend _Small Gods_ and _Reaper Man_. He also writes characters who you care about, and you might be surprised who some of them are. And certainly none of Gaiman's ultra-graphic violence, although it might feel violent occasionally as Pratchett gently skewers your sacred cows. Generally light reading, with a heart and a point. I wish there were Mormon writing that inspired me like they do. I wish the _scriptures_ could move me like that. Maybe Evenson has some Gaiman-like potential--Labute certainly does. But no Pratchetts...but as far as I know, there's only one on the entire Roundworld anyway. Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett - ---------------------------------------- - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 21:15:19 -0500 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Re: Griffin, "Theocracy U.S.A." (Comp 1) [MOD: This is a compilation post.] >From lajackson@juno.com Tue Jun 03 14:58:08 2003 R.W. Rasband: A bit of nasty Mormon-bashing from "Crisis", the conservative Catholic magazine: http://www.crisismagazine.com/may2003/Griffin.htm _______________ Whoever did the fact checking didn't do very well, did they? Do folks still check stuff before they print it, or is that just too passe nowadays? Larry Jackson - ---------------------------------------- >From eric_samuelsen@byu.edu Tue Jun 03 15:15:15 2003 Pretty tiresome piece. A lot of it is just silly; most Salt Lake = residents have never, except for their missions, been more than an hour = outside city limits? That's just bizarre. He offers no evidence for = it, and it sure don't square with my observations. =20 Eric Samuelsen - ----------------------------------- >From jongiorgi@sunset.net Tue Jun 03 15:36:06 2003 My father used to say: "Just because you're paranoid, does not mean they're not out to get you." I always laughed at that, but it contains a kernel of truth. I'd like to put a spin on that saying: "Just because it's a little one-sided, does mean it's completely false." I read Griffin's article, and I found it to be more truthful than not. Certainly one-sided, certainly biased, certainly quick to gloss over Catholicism's historical oddities with one line while harping on Mormonism's historical oddities with paragraph after paragraph. And while much of his major observations are easy to ignore, I found about a dozen smaller observations-in-passing to be dead-on accurate, and deeply indicting to the sub-sub culture of Wasatch area LDS culture. Someone once said to me, there are only four kinds of critics in this world: 1) Those that like you for the right reasons. 2) Those that like you for the wrong reasons. 3) Those that don't like you for the wrong reasons. 4) Those that don't like you for the right reasons. And the ONLY ones we have to worry about, are the last ones. It is not necessary to give any time or consideration to those who praise us, be they right or wrong, nor is it necessary to give any time or consideration to those who damn us for the wrong reasons. But when someone condemns some aspect of our behavior or culture which is in any way accurate, it behooves us to pay very close attention, and try to fix the problem. Some of the social (not GOSPEL) problems which Griffin's article identifies we have also, many times, identified here on the list, so there is no doubt that there is a certain circle which is very aware of these issues. The difficulty comes in fixing it... which is debatable and probably impossible. But I, frankly, found too much of importance in Griffin's article to completely dismiss it as just "nasty bashing." There is some bashing, sure, and some negative exaggeration of things which are only occasionally true (which he slants to lead readers to believe are generally true). But a lot of it is spot on (and some of it is even complementary); but his reasons for being uncomfortable in SLC are exactly the same reasons why I (a devout member of the church) choose to no longer live along the Wasatch Front now that I have children to rear. I think Robert Griffin and I could have a meaningful conversation, and he might even expand, tone down or otherwise modify certain sections of his article after we talked. But a distressing amount of what he said struck me as incontestable (particularly with respect to statistics about divorce, teen pregnancy, suicide, clinical depression, etc.), and if not incontestable, at least highly defensible (such as a certain local social insecurity, a notable lack of cultural diversity, a tendency to live in denial, a Kinkadian world view). All is not well in "Zion" (as was prophesied would be the case). We have yet to see SLC become one of the most wicked places on the face of the earth, but it will eventually. Hey, I LOVE to visit there, and I find so much that is of good report there that I always have a pleasant stay. But raise my kids there? It strikes terror into my heart. Besides, we put too much of a burden on the Wasatch Front, one which it was never meant to take. It isn't "Zion." It's a launching point for the eventual creation of a Global Zion (which will ultimately be headquartered in New Jerusalem, NOT SLC!). SLC is just a temporary headquarters, necessary for a time. Now we must expand and refocus, socially, culturally, to broader horizons. Having spent some of my most important formative years in Independence, MO, I've always considered THAT our Center Stake of Zion, and SLC is just an important and convenient stopping-ground on our millennial journey towards the end of days. But is SLC the end-all-be-all? Hardly. It need not be. And while some of the social problem prevalent in that specific region are also endemic to the Church globally, most of them are NOT globally identifiable to LDS culture, but are solely regional. The question is, how can the arts be used as an instrument in cultural enlightenment, or can it? I don't think we need necessarily dwell, in our literature, on the nasty underbelly of modern SLC culture, but neither do I think we need be overglossy about it, either. And, as has been called for by our overseas correspondents, what about viewpoints from outside the Intermountain West perspective, or even the US perspective? I think it will become more and more important to cultivate such alternate (extra-Utah) viewpoints, be they stories, books or films, as time goes on. At any rate, here was just one biased journalist's take after a six-month stay in SLC. I have to say: He's not all wrong. Jongiorgi Enos - ------------------------------------------- >From jeff.needle@general.com Tue Jun 03 16:15:37 2003 Nasty indeed. It seems mean-spirited, and not exactly accurate in some places. The writer tends toward absolutes and broad brush strokes, not a good idea when desiring credibility. - ---------------- Jeffrey Needle jeff.needle@general.com (or, if there's a bounce) jeffneedle@tns.net - ------------------------------------------ >From scottparkin@pxi.net Tue Jun 03 19:25:08 2003 I thought it was cute. Catholics complaining about the dark side of Mormon history? That's so cute I can hardly stand it. They make some excellent points. All is not perfect in Zion, and in more than a few cases all is not even adequate, no less well. We have a lot of work to do. If we've created an imperfect Zion, that puts us in company with every other group that's ever lived on the planet--religious, political, or social. But, as the article itself pointed out, at least we're trying. I think that's worth something. Maybe we really are human after all. It's nice of someone to finally notice. Scott Parkin - ---------------------------------------- - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V2 #73 *****************************