From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V2 #84 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Friday, June 13 2003 Volume 02 : Number 084 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:24:12 -0600 From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] THURMAN, _Whitewashed Tombs_ (Review) > My wife recently had an interesting experience that relates to this idea. She > received a call to serve for jury duty. When she went in for the interview and > selection from the jury pool it turned out that it was a murder case involving a > man who was severely inebriated at the time the crime took place. > In the initial questionaire they asked if she drank alcohol, and whether she was > Mormon. When she answered no to the first and yes to the second, she was > immediately dismissed from the jury pool and sent home (they had called in over > 70 people for the jury pool). > Apparently no active Mormon can give fair consideration to an inebriated > defendant--at least according to the lawyers (and judge) serving the circuit > court in Provo. > Scott Parkin Actually, that's fairly common anywhere. Here in Alaska (yes, I am in Alaska for the summer), my Father was denied Jury Duty because the defendants had been drunk while knocking over a liquor store, and so Mormons, since they don't drink, apparently can't be fair judges. (For a literary tie, this spurred my writing of a few sf stories in a future where religous belief automatically disqualifies you for any public jobs in the USA). - --ivan wolfe - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:05:26 -0400 From: Sam Brown Subject: RE: [AML] Restrictions on Being Alone Hello, >-----Original Message----- I have also dismissed this but for the additional reason that the scripture has been notoriously misunderstood by many Mormons. I'm no expert in Greek but what I have learned is that the better translation of that all too-familiar passage should be something like, " Avoid evil as soon as it makes it appearance." IOW, it isn't talking at all about "looking" evil but getting the h*** out of Dodge when evil reers its ugly head. Eschew evil, that's what the scripture says. RESPONSE: Thanks for the engaging post, Thom. I hate quibbling with someone I agree with, but the scripture is 1 Thess 5:22, and in a mish-mash of Pauline proof-texts, the apostle says, literally, "get away from every form of evil." The Grk, eidon, refers to form/shape/appearance, and most Christian exegetes interpret it as staying away from things that are evil (along the lines of "avoid every kind/sort of evil") with a hefty representation of "avoid things that look evil" in the most puritanical traditions. The "appearance" reading is certainly not excluded by the text itself. Importantly, at least in this passage, Paul doesn't talk about "others' perceptions" of evil, which the common LDS interpretation Thom alludes to seems to require (though admittedly he does wander there in other letters). That scripture doesn't deter me because I think the point is that heterosexual friendships aren't evil, so "Being Unalone" (to neologize awkwardly), isn't the shape/form/appearance of evil. I'm more concerned that casting women as succubi and men as puerile slaves to libido _is_ the exact shape of evil, as it hobbles our personhood and limits our capacity to grow into humans of substance. To prove I haven't lost the literary vision of the AML list charter, this discussion has made me think carefully about a short story about a man who is consumed by avoiding the appearance of evil and in so doing estranges his wife. It would be hard to avoid being trite or moralizing, but you might be able to show how his focus on appearances of evil results in his objectification of his wife, alienating him from her. Perhaps a variation on Hawthorne's Birthmark, where the scientist is obsessed with the single imperfection, with a backwards application of Dorian Gray as her face is gradually drained of humanity. sam - -- Yours, Samuel Brown, MD Massachusetts General Hospital sam@vecna.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:47:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] Dushku (Was:World's Top 2 LDS Actresses Starring in FOX TV Series) There was a recent episode of the MTV reality show "Punk'd" (in which practical jokes are played on celebrities by "That 70's Show" star Ashton Kutcher and filmed with hidden cameras) where Dushku was set up and falsely accused of shoplifting at a clothing store. She responded by letting fly with a colorful set of cuss words, most of which were bleeped for broadcast. But what is she, 22 years old? I probably would have responded the same way when I was her age. In the "Buffy" finale, the rogue slayer Faith not only survived the Sunnydale apocalypse, but took further steps towards redemption with the help and friendship of principal Wood. The moral, I suppose: there's hope for us all. I wish Dushku would have taken the Fatih-based Buffy spinoff instead of going to Fox. That network has a recent habit of canceling its best new shows ("Firefly", "Andy Richter Controls the Universe".) So I'm not getting my hopes up for Dushku's new show. ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:28:11 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Restrictions on Being Alone Robert Slaven: >While the guidelines of never being >alone with someone of the opposite sex to whom you're not >married seems excessive and silly to many, the fact is it will >pretty much keep anyone out of trouble if followed. So will celibacy but no one is suggesting that as a practical long-term solution. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:53:30 -0700 From: "jana" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormonism and Feminism > As one who has used the F word from the microphone in church (the word was > *feminist*, and may be as potentially shocking in a fast and testimony meeting > as that other F word), I say Amen and Amen. :-) Thanks for offering a > definition of feminism that is accurate and fair. As for lit, I highly recommend > Exponent, especially Exponent II, which is a feminist Mormon periodical that has > been going for about 30 years. It's terrific. > Jana Riess > > A few months ago I heard that Ex2 was going under. Is it still alive and kicking? - --Jana Remy PS: One of my favorite gifts ever is a collection (about 10 years worth) of Ex2's given to me by my mother when I started college. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:30:31 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Massage >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com >[mailto:owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Richard Johnson >Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 4:34 PM >To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: [AML] re: Massage (was: Restrictions on Being Alone) > > >Sigh! I want Paris to move to Statesboro, GA/ > Why not? Paris is already in Texas. Thom Duncan - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:37:04 -0600 From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Restrictions on Being Alone - ---Original Message From: Thom Duncan > >-----Original Message----- > >Thom, I said "guideline" for a reason. I'm all for moral > >agency and adults acting like adults and taking responsibility > >for their own actions. But while the subject of this thread > >has "Restrictions" in it, I have yet to hear anybody talking > >about anything sinister enough to warrant such a strong > >reaction here. > > Then let me give you an example. In a previous ward, my > Bishop admonished all MP holders to avoid giving women rides > in cars even if it was an emergency. The example he gave, > "You are driving home on a rainy day and notice that Sister > Smith, your neighbor, is totally drench. Now your first > inclination would be to stop and offer her a ride. Don't do > it. FIRST GO HOME AND GET YOUR WIFE THEN RETURN AND OFFER A > RIDE TO SISTER SMITH." > > Can you think of anything more insane than that? Or anything > that undermines the beautiful teaching of the Good Samaritan > than such, and I don't shy away from using the word, > "Pharasaic" teachings as that? I think that's an accurate characterization, Thom. I'm sorry you had such an inappropriate leader. That's an example (as related mind, I hesitate to pronounce judgment on the actual situation) of an insane personal doctrine being taught as truth and if I had been there, I wouldn't have hesitated to say so. I wish the rest of the men in the room had had the guts to speak out against such a bizarre statement. I'd hardly characterize it as common teaching in the church, though. In all my travel and the different wards I've lived in, I've never heard anything that ridiculous. Jacob Proffitt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 01:20:16 -0400 From: "Amelia Parkin" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormonism and Feminism Nan, after your last post I did read _the women's quarterly_ (the current issue as far as it is accessible on line), their newsletter (which i believe is called _exFemina_), and their sister site SheThinks.org (the campus version). I was stunned and horrified to find that on SheThinks, under feminism, the articles all had to do with silly dating advice a la 17 or YM, etc., etc. or with utterly ridiculous jabs made at liberal policies. really, i could read higher quality journalism in almost any publication i could purchase at the local grocery store. i had expected at least an intelligent counter argument to current hot issues in the feminist/un-feminist worlds. as for _the women's quarterly_, i purused IWF's site quite extensively and read the latest issue of the journal. well written, witty, intelligent. but it felt like all i was reading was a bunch of conservative ideologues writing about how horrible the feminist movement is. i didn't find much of anything that actually addresses real issues that real women face in the world. just a backlash against the UN, against Kate Millett, and other various and sundry people and ideas associated with the feminist movement. is it possible that i could find interesting information there? probably. but i'm not interested in reading political rhetoric on either side of the political spectrum. what i'm looking for is lasting solutions to what i see as problems. i have a lot of thinking to do about the posts that came in response to this thread. it is an issue i deal with often in my life. an issue i have thought about extensively. i'd like to read the posts that came a little closer so i can respond with the thoughtfulness that the others have responded with. so you'll be hearing more from me on this issue. amelia - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:46:00 -0600 From: Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Dan BROWN, _The Da Vinci Code_ Clark Goble wrote: >Well, except the process of canonization is different from the >history of the texts canonized. And it took some time for the >anti-marriage trend to dominate - although clearly you can see it >even at the time of Paul. I believe some tied this to various >acetic movements prior to Jesus (perhaps even the essenes). But I >admit I've not read much on that. A good resource for this is Catherine Thomas's dissertation "The Influence of Asceticism on the Rise of Christian Text, Doctrine, and Practice in the First Two Centuries" (available from BYU Studies). I was a little difficult for me to read in places, but I think mostly from not being knowledgable about the time period and philosophies discussed. But it was still very interesting to see how the philosophies affected readings and re-editings of the texts. Marny Parkin - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:09:45 -0600 From: "Nan P. McCulloch" Subject: [AML] William F. BUCKLEY, _Getting it Right_ I haven't read William F. Buckley's new novel, but I have read three = reviews on the book. We have discussed earlier that the protagonist = John Bircher love interest of the Ayn Rand character is a Mormon. In = the most recent _National Review_ under notes & asides there is a letter = to WFB from Gordon Cummings a Mormon from Concord, Calif. I am = interested to know what you listers think of the letter from Bro. = Cummings and the response from William F. Buckley. =20 Dear Mr. Buckley: Reading the interview with you about your new novel, = I was disappointed at the way you described the Mormon character. = Apparently, this character loses his virginity while serving as a = missionary for the Mormon church in Hungary. Speaking as a Latter-day = Saint(a.k.a. "Mormon") myself, this is offensive and disappointing. = There aren't very many Mormon characters in contemporary novels that = aren't actually about the Mormons, so when there is one, who is such a = bad example of what we stand for, and the character isn't balanced with = one who sets a better example, the result is to place us all in a bad = light. This is not showing much respect for other people's religions. Here is WFB's response: Dear Mr. Cummings: The author of _Getting it Right_ cast its Mormon = protagonist in the highest light, with corporal weaknesses most = religions were founded to cope with. Does the author have a responsibility to balance a wayward character = with a believing practicing character in a novel? Nan McCulloch - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:27:58 -0700 From: robertslaven@shaw.ca Subject: re: [AML] Mormon Horror Being between two computers (long story), I've lost track of who mentioned the book by Gary Gilmore's brother in terms of showing Mormon horror (in the form of capital punishment methods causing loss of blood/blood atonement/etc.). That gave me a great idea for a story/novel. A relatively new bishop (6 months?) is shaking his head as he locks his office and goes through the chapel turning off lights. The appointments of the evening run through his mind: the 19-year-old whose mission papers are now in the bishop's desk instead of on their way to SLC because of a nasty pornography/masturbation problem; the recently-separated wife who's admitting to a temptation to lesbianism after having put up with an abusive husband (and father before that) for so long; the well-respected businessman who just confessed now, in the last appointment, that he's been seeing prostitutes on business trips. He had no idea the ward had this many problems with chastity. Then, walking towards his car in the almost-empty parking lot, he notices that Brother X's car (his last appointment) is still there. Brother X left 15 minutes before...is he sitting in his car thinking or crying or something? Bishop walks over to look...and finds Brother X, dead, lying beside the driver's side door, his throat slashed and blood all over the parking lot. Bishop pulls out his cellphone and dials 911, and then kneels down to look at Brother X. There's a crumpled paper stuffed into Brother X's clenched hand...it's a page torn from Brigham Young's _Journal of Discourses_, quoting President Young on the topic of blood atonement.... The trick, now, of course, is for the Bishop to help try to figure out who's doing this. The why would be relatively obvious to the least-sheep-like of Mormons (not to mention most ex- or anti-Mormons). Setting it somewhere where Mormons aren't so thick on the ground (i.e. where the cops are almost certainly non-Mormons) would allow some good exposition work as the bishop tries to explain to the cops what's up. Room for the Bishop to question his own faith...maybe he's a convert and never thought about this much before...or maybe he's got an ancestor who was 'atoned' (or at least rumoured to have been) and has buried the thoughts until now.... Lots of fertile ground there, methinks. (If anyone steals this idea, I won't mind *too* much, as long as I get a free copy and a mention in the acknowledgments....) ObSortaRelated: I've been a capital punishment buff since I was a pup, always interested in the history, methods, etc. But if I was ever appointed Lord High Executioner, I'd go with hanging, British-style. In the 1950's, they had it down to an art -- from opening of cell door to dropping of trap, a typical time was 8 seconds. Very quick, very clean. Very unmessy, esp. w.r.t. blood, which would upset those who favour the whole blood atonement thing. But even when Utah ditched hanging and brought in lethal injection, the firing squad is still an option. (It is in Idaho, too....) ObLitNoteReTheAbove: _The Hangman's Tale_, by Syd Dernley. Syd was an assistant hangman in England in the 1950's, and participated in about 20 executions. Lots of detail on exactly how it was all done. The movie _10 Rillington Place_, about the Christie/Evans case, depicts a very realistic scene where Evans is hanged (Dernley was in on that one), which shows almost perfectly how it was done then in England...except that Evans (John Hurt) stands on the trap breathing heavily through the hood for way too long. In real life, as soon as the hood was on, the noose was on, and the legs were strapped, the head executioner pulled the lever almost immediately. Evans took 15 seconds, largely because he moved slowly from the cell to the gallows. An interesting movie and an interesting case, as Evans was later posthumously pardoned, which led the way to hanging's abolition in England in the 1960's. OK, that's probably more than y'all wanted to know. I'll shut up now. Robert the weird - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:11:38 -0500 From: "Linda Kimball" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormonism and Feminism Jana Riess wrote: > As one who has used the F word from the microphone in church (the word was > *feminist*, and may be as potentially shocking in a fast and testimony meeting > as that other F word), I say Amen and Amen. :-) Thanks for offering a > definition of feminism that is accurate and fair. As for lit, I highly recommend > Exponent, especially Exponent II, which is a feminist Mormon periodical that has > been going for about 30 years. It's terrific. For any of you wanting a free back issue or to subscribe to Exponent II ($20 for one year, $35 for 2), contact Exponent II P.O. Box 128 Arlington, MA 02476-0002 A great issue just came out and another issue is going to press around the end of June. As a convert to the Church back in the early 70's, I remember distinctly hearing a woman (Judy Dushku) speak in an institute class in Cambridge, MA. She talked about how she told her colleagues at the college where she taught "Of course I'm a feminist! I'm a Mormon, aren't I?" That sounded so "just right" to me. Yes, words have gotten very loaded since then, and I have learned much, much more about Mormon culture over the years, but I still believe Judy's phrase sums it up. Linda Hoffman Kimball - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:19:07 -0500 From: "Margaret Dyal" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormonism and Feminism Preston Hunter wrote: The reason there is a stigma about feminism in the Church is for the most part not because of any problems with the Church of its members, but because the word "feminism" has been hijacked by people with illogical, dishonest and immoral agendas. Feminism is thus very much like Islam. It has been "hijacked" and now stands, in the mind of most people, for something different than what many of its adherents believe in, or what its founders meant for it to be. I find this to be very true and as a young woman, feminism seems to be a one-issue system of beliefs: pro-abortion/choice. As a person who has a strong religious and humanist conviction that abortion is immoral, exploitive, and denigrating I feel that I can no longer call myself a feminist because the assumption is, as a feminist, I am pro-abortion/choice, which I am most definitely not. I would consider myself a feminist of the Susan B. Anthony and Mary Wollstonecraft type. Not the Patricia Ireland and Andrea Dworkin type which dominate feminist politics today. Margaret Dyal - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:48:10 -0700 From: "BJ Rowley" Subject: [AML] re: Belly Dancing Here's an interesting article that appeared this morning on CNN concerning Belly Dancing as a aerobic exercise: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/diet.fitness/06/13/bellydancing/index.html - -BJ Rowley - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:50:15 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] Salt Lake Most Wicked City? <<>> I remember often hearing this as a youth--in fact, SLC would be the world's MOST wicked city--but what is the source? Also, I remember hearing that this planet was the only one among God's billions of worlds that was wicked enough to kill the Savior, whose atonement applies to all the planets. However, elsewhere I've read that each planet has its own redeemer, which is what I buy into. Chris Bigelow - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:08:33 -0400 From: "Richard Johnson" Subject: RE: [AML] Belly Dancing I just knew we'd finally hear from Cathy, and that what she said would make sense. Back in the fifties the members of the company at the San Diego Shakespeare festival had the opportunity (actually we were pushed pretty hard) to take belly dancing from a lovely Turkish couple whose names (along with many others) I have forgotten but I have taught belly dancing techniques (without identifying them) to hundreds of actors for use as warm ups, movement preparation etc. It has always been hilarious to watch the expression on student faces as their fat old professor demonstrated pelvic slides and rotations or chest isolations, and to see those expressions change as they themselves really began to focus on the movement. Down with Lloyd Miller and his "cultural definitions". Richard B. Johnson, Husband, Father, Grandfather, Actor, Director, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool. I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important- and most valuable. Http://www.PuppenRich.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:38:37 -0600 From: Boyd Petersen Subject: RE: [AML] Restrictions on Being Alone on 6/11/03 4:27 PM, Robert Slaven at robert@robertslaven.ca wrote: > While the guidelines of never being alone > with someone of the opposite sex to whom you're not married seems excessive > and silly to many, the fact is it will pretty much keep anyone out of > trouble if followed. Sure it will keep you out of trouble, so will walling yourself up in a very small room, but it also limits your world of experience. I think most Mormons suffer from heterophobia--we place so much emphasis on sex being the very definition of morality that we are constantly worrying about not having sex. No one talks about sex, no one watches dirty movies, but it seems to be on everyone's mind. It's as if sexual relations will just automatically break out any minute two people of the oposite sex are alone together. (On a side note, I recently spoke with the director of BYU's international cinema program, and he told me about one particular crusader who used to rent all of the IC movies--back when they edited--and would take clips of all the naughty bits [the bad language, nudity, etc. that BYU would cut before showing the films] and then splice them together and duplicate the tape and send the copies to all the BYU board of directors and GAs. Now there is a guy who is so worried about sex that he's going to see every bit of it that might contaminate our local studentbody!) I teach English part-time at BYU and most of my colleagues are women. Yes, sometimes there are two of us alone in the shared office together. And what usually happens is that we have great conversations. I think we all respect the fact that we're committed, not seeking a relationship beyond the status of friends, and don't see anything sexual about our relationships. I have had many, many close friendships with women throughout my life, and my wife has had many close friendships with men. The only time I've ever had any problem was when I worked for the U.S. Congress and had a good friend that I used to walk with at lunch time. Rumors started to spread about the two of us and they all started with "You know, Boyd's a Mormon, and those Mormons can have more than one wife." Once I educated folks about that misconception, I never had any other problems. (Literary tie in:) I would really like to see more literature explore the broader implications of morality--that morality is not just about not having sex. I also teach Ethics at UVSC, and I do a little ethical case study at the beginning of the semester to help students evaluate how they prioritize their individual ethical code. Sexual sins always rank highest (even over murder!) for these kids. Amazes me. And I find that many of these nice Utah valley Mormons see other kinds of ethical lapses (Enron, for example) as no big deal. No wonder this is the fraud capital of the world. Someone on the list recently mentioned Nathaniel Hawthorne as a model for some moralistic literature that might be aimed at the Mormon reader. I really like this idea. - --Boyd Petersen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:47:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Rich Hammett Subject: Re: [AML] SSA in Mormon Lit On Fri, 06 Jun 2003, Rex Goode wrote: > I suppose one of the main reasons I don't subscribe wholly > to any of those ideas is because I would hate to be so > easily explained. A natural fear, but, I think you'd agree, a foolish one. Heterosexuality can be easily explained in terms of one thing--reproduction. You can get a fairly decent explanation by including one other factor--allocation of individual and social resources. All of this nicely evolved to its current state over billions of years. And yet, I don't feel cheapened by that. I _do_ think the specific theories that you've been discussing are poor scientifically, and serve mostly to justify certain attitudes and programs. But at some level, any biological explanation will seem too glib. But it shouldn't cheapen your life and experiences. This is a (rare, for me) place where I think pure science is nearly orthogonal to art and "life". rich ps. apologies for the late follow-up...I was at a conference on the Left Coast and had a very slow internet connection. Much too slow to keep up with the traffic on this list recently! - -- \ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett / rhammett@HiWAAY.net \ They that can give up essential / liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve \ neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:28:46 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormonism and Feminism Amelia Parkin wrote: > somehow we have this stigma > attached to feminism and i frankly do not understand it. perhaps it has > something to do with the ERA and the church's official opposition to that > amendment. but mostly i think it has to do with ignorance. with an > unwillingness to engage with this field of thought called "feminism". and > with fear. as if being feminist and mormon are mutually exclusive. Why many perceive them as mutually exclusice seems pretty clear to me. Feminism took the mother out of the home and put her in the workplace. As a result, it also took the children out of the home and put them into daycare. Feminism also wants the woman to have the right to kill her unborn child. Feminism is destroying the family. As you say, most feminists may not be of the male-bashing variety, but they are the silent majority. The vocal minority are very much into male-bashing, and it's the vocal members of a movement who define the movement in the public's eyes. Therefore feminism attakcs males, who are fathers and grandfathers and brothers and sons and grandsons of Mormons. Family members. Priesthood holders. Feminism (as perceived by many) does all sorts of damage. That's why it's considered mutually exclusive with Mormonism. Perception is reality. You can bemoan all day how the perception is inaccurate, but that won't change things. The perception must be changed. That can only happen through education. In my opinion, the best way to educate a populace that holds to a fallacious perception and does so with great enthusiasm is through the guerilla tactics of literature. We need LDS stories about feminists. We need publishers who will publish stories about feminists. We need authors who will write stories about feminists, cast in a mold that _will_ get published and _will_ get read. In other words, stories about feminists that are not labeled feminist stories. We need female protagonists that act like feminists without having that label appear anywhere. So go write some. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:30:45 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Restrictions on Being Alone Gae Lyn Henderson wrote: > How about it Sugar Beaters? Can I write for The Sugar Beet? That was scathing. It need to be in the Sugar Beet. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:32:43 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Restrictions on Being Alone Gae Lyn Henderson wrote: > But don't you have to take into account that she was a smoker? It can't be > that attractive to kiss someone who smells and tastes like that? I can honestly say I've never kissed a smoker, so I don't really know how bad it tastes, although I always imagined it would taste awful (which is probably why I've never tried it.) But female physical attractiveness can overcome all sorts of negative things, and she was very attractive. I don't think the smoking would have been an issue--at least not until I did give her a taste. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:39:59 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Restrictions on Being Alone Paris Anderson wrote: > I know people would say that's against the rules. To touch people, and get > into situations where I going to end up feeling a bond with people. Our society has abolished touch. If males touch, they might be homosexuals. If a man touches a woman, she may scream sexual harrassment. If an adult touches a child (especially if it's a man doing the touching), he's probably a sexual predator. If two kids touch, schools are now starting to call _that_ sexual harrassment, even if the kid is too young to know what sex is. The only ones who are still allowed to touch each other are women. Any other form of touch is interpreted as sexual. So no one touches anyone anymore. The scriptures prophesied that in the latter days the love of many would wax cold. Gee, I wonder what's causing that. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:58:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Rich Hammett Subject: [AML] Re: Mormonism and Feminism I've been alternately amused and horrified by the way "feminism" has been attacked here in the last few days. I am absolutely certain that some of the list's feminists hold very strongly to some of the opinions that have been denigrated as the "evils of feminist institutions." I know this, because I am one of them. I hope the others don't feel silenced by the attacks. A common theme in several attacks was the crazy idea that women should be able to do anything a man can do. Just the fact that someone here would attack that idea makes me feel like we're 50 years further in the past than I thought we were. I guess the idea is that women are different from men. Not exactly a new statement, but what does it mean? Does it mean that men are physically stronger than women? Phrased so superficially, that statement seems obvious, but does anybody think that Woody Allen could take on Chyna in wrestling? I don't think even professional wrestling could get away with that mismatch. A couple of women said they had never experienced institutional gender bias in the Church. I must not understand what those words mean...or have these women ever served as bishop? The current setup enables leaders to think of "women's issues" as a subset of "church issues." And women are ALWAYS "them" to the church leaders. It is by definition an institutional gender bias. But one that is on its last legs, I think. I hope. Will Catholics or Mormons make the jump first? Sounds like good speculative fiction. Is there any of that in Mormon feminist circles, or is that too subversive? As far as the Independent Women's Forum, it is exactly as Fair and Balanced as Fox News Channel. Actually, the more I read, I think it's actually more of a right-wing screed than FNC. Quite a few painfully bad facts and numbers, too, so don't rely on them for anything other than making you fell better about yourself. I think there's room for real feminism in mormonism and mormon literature, not just the watered-down version that some are espousing. There are actually _good_ arguments for decriminalizing prostitution, and some of the other radical notions. And I'm sure some of that has worked its way into even Mormon pioneer novels...pioneer Utah (and later) was lousy with brothels. I will agree with the "anti-feminists" who said that it was a mistake of some feminists to denigrate motherhood. That is a critical function, and should be open even as a career choice. But we can also make laws to encourage allowing women to be a mother, and still contribute in other ways to society, and develop their other gifts. The ideal of universal motherhood as a calling is a mind-destroyer and soul-killer. "Women" can do everything "men" can do, and it's up to us to find ways as a society to make it possible for good motherhood to be a part of that, and not an obstacle from it. rich - -- \ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett / rhammett@HiWAAY.net \ They that can give up essential / liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve \ neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:07:49 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [AML] Restrictions on Being Alone I once heard a story about a priesthood leader following in his car alongside a sister as she walked home during a heavy rain storm. He kept shouting encouragement to her through the barely-opened window. Her body may have been wet and cold, but her soul was warm and secure that day, I'm sure. Chris Bigelow - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:56:20 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormonism and Feminism Robert Slaven wrote: > Hear hear. Fact is, feminism has one thing right; men *are* pigs. (As one > net-friend of mine once put it, "All men are pigs. It's just that > sometimes, they're something more.") The 'natural man' part of most men is > tempted to treat women in stereotypical caveman style; bop 'em on the head > and drag 'em back to the cave. While the guidelines of never being alone > with someone of the opposite sex to whom you're not married seems excessive > and silly to many, the fact is it will pretty much keep anyone out of > trouble if followed. Men are pigs only because people keep saying things like "men are pigs" and everyone starts believing it. If you're convinced you're a pig, you'll make no attempt to act otherwise. If you're convinced you're not a pig, you won't act like one. I am a man. I am not a pig. I embrace my sexuality, but I don't abuse it. I respect women, but no more or less than other men. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V2 #84 *****************************