From: owner-associates-digest@lists.xmission.com (associates-digest) To: associates-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: associates-digest V1 #17 Reply-To: associates-digest Sender: owner-associates-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-associates-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk associates-digest Wednesday, October 25 2000 Volume 01 : Number 017 Re: (associates) Guardian, Commercial and Idealist Ethical Syndromes Re: (associates) Guardian, Commercial and Idealist Ethical Syndromes Re: (associates) Guardian, Commercial and Idealist Ethical Syndromes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:45:31 -0700 From: "Thomas L Mc Kendree" Subject: Re: (associates) Guardian, Commercial and Idealist Ethical Syndromes Pat Gratton, Ph.D., gratton@pobox.com wrote: >I argue that Jacobs missed a third syndrome, which I call the >Idealist Syndrome: > http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Idealist_Syndrome.html > >I use the categorization of these three syndromes to characterize >members of organizations interested in transformational technologies: > http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Transtech_Ethical_Syndromes.html I've looked at both, and they are both interesting. Your "Idealist Ethical Syndrome" is definitely an ethical point of view of many people, so it's probably ok to call it a syndrome. I suspect, however, that it may not be a "System of Survival." The central question a system of survival has to answer is how do the follower's of the syndrome get the resources they need to survive (and propogate)? [Note, the answer has to really work; it need not necessarily be articulated.] I think this "IES" might be similar to what I call the "super-engineer" point of view. Basically, it's a strong focus on the technical aspect of designing/making something, combined with a strong distaste for "the real world." This means that things having to operate in context, rather than in a world optimized for your design, the fact that costs matter, and that trade-offs on non-technical criteria are real, are typically despised. Lots of Microsoft-haters fall into this camp. So do people who believe that all medical decisions must be resource blind. OTOH, when an idealist can actually focus on realizing his ideal, the results can be quite spectacularly good. [This suggests to me that maybe it should be called the "Artist Ethical Syndrome."] I also doubt "Shun Trading" and "Shun Comfort" are quite right. It might be more accurate to say "Ignore [Do Not Focus On] Trading and Comfort," and certainly there is no hestitation in buying the right tools, when one has the money. Tom McKendree tmckendree@west.raytheon.com P.S. Your summary of _Systems of Survival_, at http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Systems_of_Survival.html accidentally has "Guardian Moral Syndrome" as the title for "Commercial Moral Syndrome." - - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 00:18:14 -0500 From: "Pat Gratton" Subject: Re: (associates) Guardian, Commercial and Idealist Ethical Syndromes Thomas McKendree says: > >I argue that Jacobs missed a third syndrome, which I call the > >Idealist Syndrome: > > http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Idealist_Syndrome.html > > > >I use the categorization of these three syndromes to characterize > >members of organizations interested in transformational technologies: > > http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Transtech_Ethical_Syndromes.html > > I've looked at both, and they are both interesting. Your "Idealist > Ethical Syndrome" is definitely an ethical point of view of many people, > so it's probably ok to call it a syndrome. I suspect, however, that it > may not be a "System of Survival." The central question a system of > survival has to answer is how do the follower's of the syndrome get the > resources they need to survive (and propogate)? [Note, the answer has to > really work; it need not necessarily be articulated.] SoS, p21, Arbruster says, "I propose our first report should simply aim at identifying our system or systems of moral behavior concerned with work." There's a bit of ambiguity in this proposition, since idealism is generally not successful economically - however, the activity that artists, scientists, etc. engage in is clearly "work". So, the Idealist Sydrome is definitely the sort of thing that Jacobs was looking for. However, it's true that the focus of the Idealist is not survival - which only means that this conclusion of Jacobs is incorrect (i.e., it's not true that all ethical systems for work focus on survival), which in turn means that she picked the wrong title for the book! Or maybe she did pick the right title... While the idealist syndrome doesn't generally pay off for the *idealist*, it does pay off for the *culture* (so long as not too many people are engaged in idealistic pursuits). The histories of science are filled with stories of scientists who died impoverished, but contributed great scientific or mathematical advances - which eventually generated great commercial benefit. Journalism is generally a poorly paid profession, but the openness that it brings is also of great benefit to our culture. So, there's a pretty good argument that Idealism is a survival system - for the culture. > I think this "IES" might be similar to what I call the "super-engineer" > point of view. Basically, it's a strong focus on the technical aspect > of designing/making something, combined with a strong distaste for "the > real world." This means that things having to operate in context, rather > than in a world optimized for your design, the fact that costs matter, > and that trade-offs on non-technical criteria are real, are typically > despised. Lots of Microsoft-haters fall into this camp. So do people > who believe that all medical decisions must be resource blind. OTOH, > when an idealist can actually focus on realizing his ideal, the results > can be quite spectacularly good. [This suggests to me that maybe it should > be called the "Artist Ethical Syndrome."] Excellent examples! Note that television writers (who very likely to be idealists) tend to focus on the idealist aspects of other professions: medicine, law, policing, etc.. (I'm overstating my case here slightly - television produces what sells - and portrayals of idealism sell well.) I agree that idealists can make spectacular commercial (and guardian) breakthroughs. Idealism can provide a much greather focus and endurance than commercial and guardian ethics, and thus can sometimes produce spectacular breakthroughs. Interesting point though - achieving such success may actually repel the idealist, driving him to another field or topic. The reason for the repulsion is that the field or topic is now tainted by trading and/or force applications. (I think that ample examples of this phenomena can be found.) I originally called the syndrome "Artistic", but switched to "Idealist" since this term is more generic (e.g., journalism lacks the creativity that characterizes art - but clearly follows the same mindset). > I also doubt "Shun Trading" and "Shun Comfort" are quite right. It might > be more accurate to say "Ignore [Do Not Focus On] Trading and Comfort," I think that the imperative is clearly stronger than "don't focus on". In this mentality, there's a clear scorn rather than indiference to money. I think that I could pick numerous examples, but here's a few: - - The reaction of the open-source community to intrusion of commercial interests. - - I saw some quite beautiful collages in a coffee shop in Fremont (and usually despise collages - these were *that* good). Next them the collages was a small note from the artist - apparently he had received offers to buy the collages, but had turned the offers down because he did not feel that his work was mature yet. (If he were merely 'not focussing' on trading, then he would have accepted.) - - Jacobs relates the message of "The Gift" by Lewis Hyde as, "His thesis is that the artist has been blessed with special gifts, with talents. He bestows these on the community as a gifts. He should receive in turn, pure gifts." This is clearly shunning of trade. A similar attitude appears in the open-source community in discussion of Gift Economies. > and certainly there is no hestitation in buying the right tools, when one > has the money. Agreed, but when he has no money, then stealing the tools may be considered to be justified as well. Interesting case in point: Graffitti is often recognized as art - art that by definition requires the theft of a sorts (namely of the wall to paint on). ..Pat > P.S. Your summary of _Systems of Survival_, at > http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Systems_of_Survival.html > accidentally has "Guardian Moral Syndrome" as the title for > "Commercial Moral Syndrome." Thanks. Fixed. - - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:06:31 -0700 From: "Thomas L Mc Kendree" Subject: Re: (associates) Guardian, Commercial and Idealist Ethical Syndromes - --0__=61Q9lFTWoCbjMtgeRqkr7jjUjEWrBXNWmlkrTUcydwgV7tQBiTjXJLoU Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For those arguing the relative merits of this list, I just tried to submit a post to nanodot on the discussion of ethical syndromes, but it choked on the table I wanted to supply. I tried to line up the alleged characteristics of the three syndromes, and fill in the obvious holes. Since nanodot didn't work, I'm sending it out here. 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For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------ End of associates-digest V1 #17 ******************************* - To unsubscribe from $LIST, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe $LIST" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.