From: buffy-owner@xmission.com (buffy Digest) To: buffy-digest@xmission.com Subject: buffy Digest V1 #304 Reply-To: buffy@xmission.com Sender: buffy-owner@xmission.com Errors-To: buffy-owner@xmission.com Precedence: buffy Digest Thursday, September 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 304 In this issue: RE.:BUFFY: Philias in the world of buffy. Re: BUFFY: Link with the Master and killing bad guys Re: BUFFY: SPOILER: Where'd she go? Re: BUFFY: BUFFY premier Spoiler Re: BUFFY: SPOILER: Where'd she go? Musings on Charisma Re: BUFFY: Something Buffy Said Re: BUFFY: InStyle Mag. Re: BUFFY: Teasing or Inviting? BUFFY: Recurring Lines Re: BUFFY: SPOILER: Where'd she go? Musings on Charisma Re: BUFFY: Full Season Ordered Re: BUFFY: WSWB: Torture (was: Was it chocolate?) Re: BUFFY: WSWB, Erm...How many SPOILERS? Re: BUFFY: SPOILER: Where'd she go? Musings on Charisma Re: BUFFY: WSWB, Erm...How many SPOILERS? Re: BUFFY: WSWB: Torture (was: Was it chocolate?) Re: BUFFY: Box O' Responses Re: BUFFY: WSWB: Torture (was: Was it chocolate?) Re: BUFFY: Link with the Master and killing bad guys Re: BUFFY: WSWB, Erm...How many SPOILERS? Re: BUFFY: SPOILER: Where'd she go? Musings on Charisma Re: BUFFY: WSWB: Torture (was: Was it chocolate?) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:30:06 -0400 From: Jesse Jou Subject: RE.:BUFFY: Philias in the world of buffy. At 9:43 AM -0400 9/18/97, THE ARCHANGEL GABRIEL wrote: >Hey JJ, howza bout' a new club. BUFFA-PHELIACS. You know. It doesn't >have to be connected to just Buffy. Or we could start a chain. >WILLO-PHELIACS, XANDER-PHELIACS................Ahem. Sorry. Well, Angel and Buffy represents a rather subdued form of necrophilia, in which both participants are capable of motion. Giles is a bibliophile, whilst Ms. Calendar may be an anglophile. ;-> Willow would be a Xanderphiliac (for some reason, the expression "Xando Calrisian" has just popped into my head. oh, the horror.) Cordelia could some day be a philanthropist, whilst Xander seems more of a philatelist So, Archangel, I guess I'm all for the cateloguing (sp.) of the various philias of Buffy fandom: I understand the Diagnostic and Statitistical Manual of the American Psychological Association is due for an update: perhaps we could submit them with BWS and BAD as legitimate psychological disorders to be covered by HMOs around the nation? I know I'd like to talk to a therapist about buffy. ObBuffy: As a testament to the brilliance of Joss Whedon, a rewatching of the saga cell that opens the season premiere gives away important plot information in the pasting together of shots of Giles, Willow and Ms. Calendar, and Cordelia, fighting the Hellmouth in PG, with shots of the Master's body disintegrating. ;-) JJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:00:40 -0400 (EDT) From: FanOfBuffy@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Link with the Master and killing bad guys All this talk about Buffy being linked to the Master got me to thinking Remember in PG when Buffy came upon the Master, she commented on his water damage, and he said something like, "Oh good, the feeble banter portion of the fight". Well, in WSWB, Buffy said something eerily similar! After Absalom babbled on for a bit, Buffy said, "So, are you going to kill me, or are we just making small talk?" Maybe she was more connected to the Master than we thought (I still want some loose ends tied up from PG...like why she felt stronger, different, and how she knew where the Master was at the end) Another thing that never fails to surprise me is Joss' willingness to kill off Buffy's opponents. Not that that's a bad thing. But I remember watching WttH, and liking Luke...and bam, he died! Same with the Three, Absalom, Claw Guy, Jesse, the Master, Darla and possibly the Annointed One (the the latter 3 where more developed than the rest). That seems so unusual in a series! Usually there's one baddie that's around for the entire series! That's another thing that sets Buffy apart from other shows! I have to applaud Joss and the writers though. Every time I'm sad that a "bad guy" has been defeated (though it's necessary to keep showing that Buffy is a successful slayer), the show just creates new ones that are just as good or even better than the previous ones! I have to wonder though....if Angel hadn't been so popular, what would have happened to him? I bet he would have died long ago or sometime this season saving Buffy. Man, I would love to get into Joss' mind and find out why he did certain things the way he did! (I bet he could answer the Xander/Buffy dance question!) Beth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:14:07 -0400 (EDT) From: cn2759@abaco.coastalnet.com (JW) Subject: Re: BUFFY: SPOILER: Where'd she go? > She wasn't with Giles and the > others as they were hanging over The Master's bones, and she didn't talk > to Buffy at the end. Either I just completely missed her, or she really > did become a vamp... >> There were four people hanging over the master, and Cordy was one. I think the reason you don't see her later was because it was the big emotional ending. We see the intense expressions of Giles, Willow and Xander. If we had seen Cordelia, what comment would she make. It would be in character to say something self-centered, then taking away the focus on Buffy. Of course in the very end we see her in the daylight, so shes no Vamp. Well, she might be a vamp but not a vampire. JW ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:16:14 -0400 (EDT) From: cn2759@abaco.coastalnet.com (JW) Subject: Re: BUFFY: BUFFY premier Spoiler >BUFFY:"Look this is Slayer stuff, ok. Can we just have a little less >from the civilians please. "XANDER: "OK, that's just about enough!" >OK, am I the only one who would have liked to have seen that scene >played out without the intervention of Principal Snyder? * Xander might have been bleeding more than he did in the library. I could see Buffy pop him one right in the kisser, with the mood she was in. She's freaked about the master and Xander starts to give 'tude, he could be Talcum powder. I think Buffy wanted somebody to fight, we saw her destroy the practice dummy. I think its the same with Angel in the scene outside the Bronze, she was looking for somebody to let loose some of that anger on. Yes, some of it was suggestive but I think she really was looking for a fight. JW ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:43:59 -0400 From: Jesse Jou Subject: Re: BUFFY: SPOILER: Where'd she go? Musings on Charisma At 1:14 PM -0400 9/18/97, JW wrote: >There were four people hanging over the master, and Cordy was one. I >think the reason you don't see her later was because it was the big >emotional ending. this is a good, within-show explanation. There may be a real-world explanation too if the rumor that Charisma was sick during filming is true, thus explaining her huskier vocal stylings and absence from the destruction of the master scene in this ep. Something along the lines of: Charisma: "I've been hanging upside down all night and I'm really sick and you don't really need me in this scene would it be okay if I went home and collapsed?" Joss: "Sure, girlfriend, go home and take care of yourself. We'll see you bright and early tomorrow." Speaking of Charisma, I was thinking of her ill-fated foray into Aaron Spelling land, Malibu Shores. I remember watching a couple of episodes because of the romance between good girl/bulimic Keri Russell (who later was to play Conor's dead girlfriend in Buffy Challenger Roar) and bad boy/poet Tony Luca (in whom some critics saw a young Luke Perry, who of course was Pike in BtVS the original movie). I remember being struck by how Charisma's was a performance of maximum bitchiness and minimum impact. I'm thankful she's gone on to show deeper depths in Cordelia. Also, in another bizarre twist of fate, I could swear I saw Charisma's equally interesting named MS co-star Essence Atkins in a recent repeat of Promised Land, costarring I believe in an episode with the blond hyena boy from the Pack. You see, it really is all one. JJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:01:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Wolfkazzy@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Something Buffy Said In a message dated 97-09-17 00:20:45 EDT, you write: > Or, am I truly losing it > and this is all unrelated? No, you're not loosing it. I noticed it too, especially Angel's reaction to it. He recognized it as well. Wolfkazzy Keeper of Angel's Soul "I can walk like a man, but I'm not one."--Angel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:20:18 -0400 (EDT) From: kvweller@Charleston.Net Subject: Re: BUFFY: InStyle Mag. At 07:38 AM 9-18-97 -0500,Dave wrote: September issue,> The article is in the October issuse it has Meg Ryan on the front. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:57:07 -0400 From: John Nestoriak Subject: Re: BUFFY: Teasing or Inviting? I wonder how many of us had Literature teachers who would have loved to have seen us put this much thought and effort into analyzing the books we read ... > Okay, I'm trying to answer several different threads here, I think, not > just this one me too. Lets step back one step further. The whole dance scene follows the "I've moved on ... to the living" comment. What's Buffy thinking at this point? In my mind it's something like "I really like Angel but I can't stand to let him have such an emotional hold on me." At least at the subconscious level. And then Xander does the puppy dog imitation. The next thought is something along the lines of "I'll show Angel how I have moved on." The dance is more for Angel than Xander. Her interest is more in acting seductively to someone other than Angel than particularly to get to Xander (and Willow). At least at first. While on the dance floor Xander realizes he's being used and Buffy realizes what she's doing to both Xander and Willow. Of course hurting Xander and Willow (pushing them away) is more of a bonus at this point than a negative. "Don't you wish I would?" becomes a tease. "Don't you wish I was really into you rather than just using you to get at Angel?" She leaves without comment to Xander, Willow or Angel. The act wasn't premeditated but she's not exactly feeling sorry about it either. > What I don't quite understand is how Xander, the next day, can even > briefly try to pretend to himself that she might have been coming on to > him because she likes him. He knows better. Clearly you've never been a 16 year old guy in love! Having been there I can assure you that Xander's comment is perfectly natural. The 16 year old guy longing after a "girl of his dreams" will use all sorts of irrational reasoning to alternate between she loves me and she hates me. He so desperately wants Buffy to love him that part of him is saying "Hey she asked me to dance and what a dance it was!". Ignoring all the subtext and surrounding behavior this was a come-on. Of course even the hormonally challenged 16 year old mind realizes that can't really be true: "Ok, she's possessed." - -- John Nestoriak ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:24:24 -0400 (EDT) From: DaisyFoo14@aol.com Subject: BUFFY: Recurring Lines Also, on the topic of lines happening again this season from last season, is the one from Prophecy Girl, where Xander walks into Angel's apartment to tell him she's gone. As he walks in, he says, "Mind if I come in?" When Angel is in Buffy's room @ night, in WSWB, he says, "Mind if I come in?" I know this is a common thing to say, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. Alli T:DaisyFoo14@aol.com-GASPer-Keeper of Big:C's Cell Phone,Sparkle Purse, X's Tweety Bird Watch,B's purple pink lamp,J's Earrings,"Effective Parenting" Tapes, G's dictionary stand,Lance's notebook,SHS lockers.Little:X's Superman PJs w/matching Cape(+ Padded Feet),C's"Baby Prom Queen"Make-up Set,W's Lonely Ken Doll (after Little X stole Barbie),B's"Sarah,Slain and Tall (tales of an alt univ)" book, Master's Blood-Flavored Toothpaste (he can't wait to brush his fangs at night!) "Think of something cool, tell him I said it."-Buffy,PG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:43:28 -0700 From: Lisa Rose Subject: Re: BUFFY: SPOILER: Where'd she go? Musings on Charisma At 01:43 PM 9/18/97 -0400, Jesse Jou wrote: >this is a good, within-show explanation....Something along the lines of: >Charisma: "I've been hanging upside down all night and I'm really sick and >you don't really need me in this scene would it be okay if I went home and >collapsed?" Joss: "Sure, girlfriend, go home and take care of yourself. >We'll see you bright and early tomorrow." Followed by, Lost Boy: "You let Charisma go home early?" Joss W: "Yeah, she's sick and her role is really pretty minor in this scene. You figure anyone will even notice she's missing?" >bad boy/poet Tony Luca (in whom some critics saw a young Luke Perry, who of >course was Pike in BtVS the original movie). Given that the premiere of "90210" is still fresh in my mind, it cracks me up that someone has already been compared to a "young" Luke Perry, as though Luke is now some bloated, balding Marlon Brando. "You're fifteen minutes are up, Mr. Perry, time to leave Teen Magazine! And will somebody please tell Jason Priestley?" Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:50:07 -0700 From: Lisa Rose Subject: Re: BUFFY: Full Season Ordered At 10:50 AM 9/18/97 -0500, JOSEPH NORTHCOTT wrote: >I just got the word last night. Warner Bros. has ordered an >additional 9 episodes of BtVS. Yea! 13 + 9 = 22. So it looks like >we're going to get a full season after all. (Did you ever have >any doubts?) Hmmm, based on the decent overnight ratings of WSWB? Maybe we can thank ourselves for converting enough innocent humans to our blood-drinking ways! We saved the season, I say we party! Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:01:59 -0700 From: Lisa Rose Subject: Re: BUFFY: WSWB: Torture (was: Was it chocolate?) Ahhh Joseph and Mike, Glad I could count on you both to jump in against any argument that sounded the vaguest bit like "political correctness" (whatever that term means anymore, it's become so diffuse, perhaps it means anything that threatens to spoil our fun) At 10:36 AM 9/18/97 -0500, JOSEPH NORTHCOTT wrote: >Wow. You just gave soulless vampires' views the same weight as everybody >elses. (Chris's in this case.) Moral relativism is alive and kicking. >What's next, vampires watching a tv show about a slayer hunter? Funny you should mention that. As a piece of humor related to the Little Buffy Page, I once wrote of a vamp TV show called "Darla, the Human Killer" about a brave young blonde vamp who tries to protect her people from a remorseless human vamp-killer named Buffy who is aided by a treacherous vampire betrayer named Angel. It was a big hit among vamps, until Buffy and Angel abruptly canceled it. >You are assigning a trait to vampires that isn't there. In the Buffyverse, >they have no soul. If you feel compelled to deny moral superiority over >them, I think you are really missing what it means to be without a soul. They have a demon inside, which to them may be our equivalent of a soul. Among the Master's minions, to be without a demon inside might be akin to being soulless as a human. Darla felt genuinely sorry for Angel that his inner demon had been compromised by the return of his soul. Try to take leave of your perspective as a human, just for a moment. >If we followed your train of thought, then police wouldn't be able to kick >down a criminal's door just because criminals shouldn't kick down our >doors. Buffy is like the "Vampire Policewoman." (Now there's a term that >will stick.) I feel very safe saying vamps are murderers, but she is _not_ >a murderer for killing vamps. Joseph, I'm surprised at you! Police can't kick down a person's door without reasonable cause and they're certainly not supposed to torture anyone, even the most heinous of serial murderers, ever! That example plays right into my hands! >You've made a subtle twist on the definition, but it isn't might makes >right. Moral relativism is where all views are given equal weight, >regardless of how kooky some are. No, moral relativism is where there is no absolute moral truth, that moral truth is dependent upon which party's perspective you assume. If there were to be an absolute Buffyverse moral law such as "Thou shalt not torture thy victims" and BV humans were to abide by it, whereas BV vamps weren't, then perhaps BV humans might have a reason to claim *absolute* (as opposed to relative) moral superiority. As it stands now, they don't have such a reason, IMO, even though I root for them nonetheless (hey, *I'm* human!). >You just equated Buffy's actions with the concentration camps in the >Holocaust. Ouch. No, I suggested that declaring "open-torture day" on groups whom we declare to be animals or soulless is a dangerous road to start down because of how it's been abused on other humans (and maybe animals too). As a patriotic human, I don't normally lament that Buffy is committing vampire genocide (although miss hayse made some interesting points to suggest maybe she sorta is). It's just enlightening to be circumspect occasionally in our human smugness. >I'm going with Chris. The point of the scene was to show how differently >Buffy treats vamps. Juxtaposed with her feelings in WttHM: "It isn't like I >have any fluffy bunny feelings for them." I don't have fluffy bunnies for vamps either. And I cheer when Buffy dusts them. I'm a human patriot. But I think we should acknowledge that we cheer for Buffy because she's human and so are we, and the vamps pose a threat to us humans. Not because we are necessarily superior to them. >Whoops, that flirtation just crashed and burned. Sorry. Yeah sure, it probably really crashed and burned when I told you offlist that I wasn't Lucy Lawless! (and I can only *imagine* which former list member you might be equating me with now!) Next! At 11:42 AM 9/18/97 -0400, PalOBuffys@aol.com wrote: >Vampires, whose sole purpose is to rid the earth of mankind. Vampires, who >in fact have no souls and prove it time and again in their actions. >Vampires, who have no concept of the value of life, human or otherwise. >Vampires, who, for the most part, couldn't care less about each other. >(Sure, the Master made some favorable comments about Angel and Darla, but Everything we think about vampires is colored by the fact that they eat us. Kinda like the way we think about sharks. I'm not saying we shouldn't kill them (as we often have to kill sharks). I'm just saying we should check our moral superiority at the door, because it's gotten us into such trouble in dealing with other mortal members of our world in the past. We have a way of using the "no soul" argument for abusing groups we don't understand, whether we are Egyptian pharaohs, Chinese Emperors, or Spanish Conquistadores. But I really enjoy Buffy, so I don't to get stuck in this no-win argument for very much longer. >Darla sure got a kick out of lancing The Three a while back. She made >capital punishment fun, and that's just plain sick.) Wow, I know an awful lot of *humans* who love capital punishment too. (who would joyfully throw the electric chair switch on a whole range of criminals, not just murderers). Does that mean they have no souls and I can stake 'em! (no wait, that would mean I have no soul too, gosh it's all so confusing!). Joss bases all his vampires on evil human archetypes at some level, IMHO >I say throw political correctness out the window when it comes to vampires >(Buffy's "undead-American" comment was great though!) and use whatever means >necessary to prevent them from accomplishing their task. I laughed at "undead-American" too, especially because Angel is totally *not* into "identity politics" and Buffy just said it to be mean. Banish this thread back into its book of containment! Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:05:40 -0400 (EDT) From: James Bjorkman Subject: Re: BUFFY: WSWB, Erm...How many SPOILERS? My apologies for the length of this post. There's just too much to say.. On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Lisa Rose wrote: [re the Buffy dance with Xander and her leaving him there.] > But you're assuming it was premeditated. She may have been in a punchy > mood, saw Xander standing there, and thought "I'm gonna mess with his head." > Just like she tried to pick a fight with Angel. My point was that she was just being a typical teen, acting out for her own pleasure, not to get even with everyone. I don't see any difference with what you're saying. I suppose I should put a big label "rhetorical question" the next time I use that device, since that appears to be what you misunderstood in my post. [Re Xander might have interpreted Buffy's behavior as flirtatious.] > After the cold water she threw on him with that line, and walking out > on him? He may have been a little slow in this episode, but not that > slow. He still knows when he's been humiliated. If he's so sure he was humiliated, he sure didn't show it the next day. I don't think you have to be "slow" to give an old friend the benefit of the doubt about behavior that can have lots of different interpretations. Though it sounds as though you might not. Which is fine. Like Xander, I would have, too. Sometimes it's better to not be instantly judgmental and act like life has ended because of typical teen insensitivity. [Re Xander is a big boy and will survive.] > Are you kidding? Given how much he loves and trusts her? To have > her lure him in and betray him like that shouldn't devastate him? > IMO, I would have a low opinion of Xander if I thought he *wouldn't* > be shaken up by such a thing! Um, he practically smooches with Willow one minute, and manfully risks his life for her (I thought Xander's "Go Willow" was extremely powerful, though nobody's mentioned it), and then suddenly Buffy is his one and only? I think you're giving the Buffy/Xander thing way too much credit and Xander's ability to survive typical girlish behavior way too little. I saw little to be "shaken up" about, especially given his earlier behavior with Willow. [Re Buffy's behavior was not all that atypical for a teen.] > She's not just "a girl." She's Buffy, the love of his life. And she > normally doesn't do stuff like this, so he's gonna take her seriously > and not laugh about it. With Cordy, he'd be wary. But he absolutely > trusts Buffy (for good reason until now). Um, you must have missed the part with Willow and the ice cream cone. Maybe he has *two* loves of his life? Lucky guy. And why he would so trust and adore a girl who dissed him so completely in Prophecy Girl is beyond me. When someone reacts like Xander did to Buffy's dis in PG, moaning and listening to the music of pain, it usually means a permanent change his feelings towards the perpetrator (Buffy). At least it has in *my* prior relationships. [Re Cordy is not known to think anything about Xander.] > Besides, after fighting alongside him in PG, Cordy > may like Xander better than before (even if she doesn't admit it > to her snob friends). Um, who's reading stuff in now? Simply saying "things are different now between Cordy and Xander, though we don't know why" is kind of a cop-out, especially since they practically haven't seen each other in months. Or do you have a SHRED of evidence to support this? Oh well, I don't want this to turn into a slugfest, so I'll leave it at that, however much I like slugfests with worthy opponents. I hope the list moms can forgive the quoting. No offense intended. The emotional investment everybody seems to have in this scene is pretty darn amusing, though. :) :) Joss hit a nerve. jb "Nobody has suffered like I have suffered." Cordelia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:17:21 -0400 (EDT) From: James Bjorkman Subject: Re: BUFFY: SPOILER: Where'd she go? Musings on Charisma On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Jesse Jou wrote: > Malibu Shores. [Snip.] I remember being struck by > how Charisma's was a performance of maximum bitchiness and minimum impact. > I'm thankful she's gone on to show deeper depths in Cordelia. Well said, though she had maximum impact on this particular viewer. I just wish I had taped that bedroom scene in Malibu Shores with CC and Spelling's son. That was a classic! Oh, and re Buffy and WSWB, I think your explanation on CC's absence (or near-absence - I'm still not convinced it was actually her that was doing the hanging) from the hanging scene is spot on. Can you say, "Hanging misery for the stunt double?" Heehee. The others weren't so lucky - I bet ASH wished he had a head cold, too. jb "Nobody has suffered like I have suffered." Cordelia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:37:49 -0700 From: "Christopher B. Castro" Subject: Re: BUFFY: WSWB, Erm...How many SPOILERS? On the soon-to-be-undead topic of Buffy/Xander dance: >Are you kidding? Given how much he loves and trusts her? To have >her lure him in and betray him like that shouldn't devastate him? >IMO, I would have a low opinion of Xander if I thought he *wouldn't* >be shaken up by such a thing! And we must keep in mind that Xander is in *high school*, a young teenager, and that at that age, especially with the relatively low amount of experience he's had in the male-female relations field, his self-esteem is under serious jeopardy. Think about it. This is the girl he dreams about, the one he listened to the 'music of pain' because of, and to have her mess with his mind like that, entice him and then, as you put it, James, "leave him high and dry", has to be devastating no matter how you look at it. I'm sure Xander felt better when it was just simple rejection, because at least he knew she wasn't interested. But when Buffy approached him in the Bronze like she did and began to come on to him in that fashion, he was given a mansion of pleasure which she promptly burned to the ground. Frankly, I don't see how difficult this is to understand. }:)> Chris 2 **Keeper of Xander's Cool** **BABS Loremaster** ========================================================================= BABS Homepage: http://www.porter.ucsc.edu/~weasel/BABS/babs.htm ========================================================================= "No, no, listen, don't listen to me, listen. You can find them if you are brave. They passed down all the roads long ago. And the Red Bull ran close behind them and covered their footprints." - -Peter S. Beagle, "The Last Unicorn" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:56:03 -0700 From: "Christopher B. Castro" Subject: Re: BUFFY: WSWB: Torture (was: Was it chocolate?) >Granted, Buffyverse (BV) humans may need to dust BV vampires just to >survive. But if the BV humans don't feel compelled to show the BV vampires >any "human" decency in the process (ie, freedom from cruel and unusual >punishment), how can they claim any moral superiority over them? I understand your argument regarding morals, and I don't have any argument to rebuke your statements, but I know that I'd certainly prefer a world wherein the human species is preserved, and *demons* aren't walking it. Let me then, tell you my reasons for believing that vampires just aren't good. The greater majority of the human species, I believe, are inherently good creatures. I don't believe testaments that all humans are inherently evil, nor will I listen to such testaments. As Giles basically stated, the first vampire began to infect humans and spreaded the curse, thus creating other vampires. In order for a vampire to be created, another creature (the soul of the human), if you will, must be destroyed or ripped out, in order for the vampire spirit to invade. And *there*, is where I have the biggest problem. If vampires could propagate without having to destroy/replace the soul of a human being, there might be better ground for their existence. Another question to add to this disccusion. If vampires and humans, in your opinion, are moral equals and both have equal rights to exist on this planet, then how on earth (no pun intended) do you view them as villains in the show? Shouldn't you be feeling sorry for them, furious at that sick Slayer who keeps killing them all with no remorse? ObBuffy: Does the Annointed One qualify as a vampire king? What exactly is his status in vampire society? I don't believe it was ever stated, but it seems that he is something of a unique figure among vampires. He was also linked to prophecies during the first season, but now he's a freelance Annointed One. Career opportunities? The first vampire king kid? }:)> Chris 2 **Keeper of Xander's Cool** **BABS Loremaster** ========================================================================= BABS Homepage: http://www.porter.ucsc.edu/~weasel/BABS/babs.htm ========================================================================= "No, no, listen, don't listen to me, listen. You can find them if you are brave. They passed down all the roads long ago. And the Red Bull ran close behind them and covered their footprints." - -Peter S. Beagle, "The Last Unicorn" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:04:15 -0700 From: Lisa Rose Subject: Re: BUFFY: Box O' Responses Brother, you are on a roll here. Lemme see if I can keep up... At 12:12 PM 9/18/97 -0400, Jesse Jou wrote: >ROTFL! Yes, Virginia, there is an Angelus. You thing of pure evil! >Not to be cruel to DB, who is perfectly perfect in form >and function IMO, but he teeters right on the border of being kinda blank, >his saving grace being a home-spun self-deprecation that somehow manages to >peek through Angel's morose character. Yes, this characterizes well an impression of Angel I didn't even know I had until you so artfully persuaded me of it. But is his blankness due to really being blank, or do we assume blankness for all creatures of his flawlessness, and refuse to see texture (goddess help me, I see little). I now embrace his home-spun self-deprecation (most eagerly!). >Last night I was rewatching >the ep on my fuzzy recording and stood up and screamed "Imposter! The real >Master is still alive!" As I live and breathe, he is sharing an apartment with L. Ron Hubbard and Elvis Presley in Hoboken. >This do I crave to see. The return of she-mantises, en force, perhaps >taking on the much ballyhooed Spike and Dru in a bloody turf war that will >blow all our discussion of moral relativism away like so much master bone >grounded into talcum. We know at least one vamp was immortally afraid of Ms. Mantis. Perhaps there is a vamp Achilles heel for which mantises have just the right serrated spear? Cover those piercing appendages in sawdust and go straight for the heart? >(Speaking of which, surely those fragments of Master >bone would have some mystical import? Perhaps, if mixed with milk, it >forms a rich chocolatey beverage full of evil-nourishing vitamins? >Slim-Mast? "Slim-Mast"? Too much! I was thinking of something to beef up the calcium content of the school's "Soylent Green" with! Humanoid Corpses are humanoid corpses. Souls, schmouls... >Or perhaps that Buffy would couch such behavior in terms of >sexual aggression? I mean couldn't she have just been really disagreeable >without rubbing herself against Xander? It just makes me feel so cheap and >manipulated. Shame on you, Joss. ;-> Ah, she knew Xander's area of greatest vulnerability, the sexuality department. And she went for it. Having been an undead hunk for centuries, Angel would have re-Buffed such an approach (as he did with Darla). So she got to him at the level of aggression, taunting him with his pent-up violence. (Xander, being pretty good with words, might have simply joked about that approach if she'd tried it with him). Is it her art, that even in a callous frenzy, she can tailor her attack to her victims' specific vulnerabilities? >(speaking of which, two words that might >have changed the course of buffy history if only the vampires knew about >it: Elizabeth Arden. may they never bring Cordelia across.). Stop! You are slaying me! And as I claim to be human, you must assume me to have a soul. Therefore, you commit a moral crime! >BTW, did anyone else notice how the dancing thing ties into Prophecy Girls' >"I want to dance with you" scene? Well, Xander boy, you got your wish; the >price of getting what you want is that you get what you want. Tying into the theme of the new "Wishmaster" film that would compete with IKWYDLS or ScreamII for teen market share if the timings were better? Better yet, "The Monkey's Paw" (because of which I'm reluctant to ever wish again), a story that (as once stated on the lists) would make a definitely Dubbalicious Buffy premise! >Well, for the Buffy/Giles shippers out there, it would play into her >"Father" complex, eh? "Father," get it? Get it? Oh, wait. Stop! My skin becomes dry, even dusty! >If Angel were a monk or priest, he would probably have been a "Brother" >or a novitiate. erm. Ne'er mind. Do you broach brother/sister incest, brother? Ever your adoring sister, Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:06:59 -0700 From: "Christopher B. Castro" Subject: Re: BUFFY: WSWB: Torture (was: Was it chocolate?) As humans, we can rationalize that vampires are >empirically evil because they are our enemy-- and we don't understand >them, and can't because they are our enemies. Just as I'm sure animals >do not understand why we eat them all the time (by the way, I'm NOT a >vegetarian- just making a point) and perhaps find it a character flaw as >well. I understand what you're trying to get across, here, but there's one little problem with your reasoning. No, not every human eats animals, or uses animals products, or has ever been known to kill an animal. We have a choice, and for various reasons, whether it's more convenient, we don't have to see it butchered, we don't see Proctor & Gamble's murder of 50K animals a year, etc., we can decide to do either or. I, however, don't believe that the vampire community is going to splinter as a small group of bloodsuckers decide that it's just not right to feed off of humans and that it's time to start investing in blood banks. The only way I'd see that happening is if they all were cursed by the Rom. But then again, that wouldn't make them villains any longer, would it (re-Angel)? Of course, there've been some good Borg, but we're not talking biological changes here. Vampires are soulless, and in the Buffyverse that means they're evil, and they're not going to change their ways because they're sick of killing. In fact, they love it. }:)> Chris 2 **Keeper of Xander's Cool** **BABS Loremaster** ========================================================================= BABS Homepage: http://www.porter.ucsc.edu/~weasel/BABS/babs.htm ========================================================================= "No, no, listen, don't listen to me, listen. You can find them if you are brave. They passed down all the roads long ago. And the Red Bull ran close behind them and covered their footprints." - -Peter S. Beagle, "The Last Unicorn" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:12:32 -0700 From: "Christopher B. Castro" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Link with the Master and killing bad guys >That seems so unusual in a series! Usually there's one baddie that's >around for the entire series! That's another thing that sets Buffy apart >from other shows! Well, one thing we do know is that Joss wasn't sure of the series' life expectancy so he only prepared for one season. Oh Master, we never got the chance to know you well! Aw, who cares. }:)> Chris 2 **Keeper of Xander's Cool** **BABS Loremaster** ========================================================================= BABS Homepage: http://www.porter.ucsc.edu/~weasel/BABS/babs.htm ========================================================================= "No, no, listen, don't listen to me, listen. You can find them if you are brave. They passed down all the roads long ago. And the Red Bull ran close behind them and covered their footprints." - -Peter S. Beagle, "The Last Unicorn" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:22:26 -0700 From: Lisa Rose Subject: Re: BUFFY: WSWB, Erm...How many SPOILERS? At 01:37 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Christopher B. Castro wrote: >But when Buffy approached him in the Bronze >like she did and began to come on to him in that fashion, he was given a >mansion of pleasure which she promptly burned to the ground. Frankly, I >don't see how difficult this is to understand. Oooh, I *like* this, "mansion of pleasure which she promptly burned to the ground." Can I quote you? Reminds me of an old Kris Kristofferson tune called "Darby's Castle" about a similar betrayal that ended in a mansion being burned (Wait a minute, "Chris Castro" and "Kris Kristofferson," hmmm, a mere coincidence? You be the judge!). Just don't get carried away with any imagery of how Xander's mansion was erected, Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:12:47 -0700 From: Lisa Rose Subject: Re: BUFFY: SPOILER: Where'd she go? Musings on Charisma At 04:17 PM 9/18/97 -0400, James Bjorkman wrote: >Well said, though she had maximum impact on this particular viewer. I >just wish I had taped that bedroom scene in Malibu Shores with CC and >Spelling's son. That was a classic! Glad to see that nepotism is alive and well! So I guess *all* of Aaron's average-looking children get to have sex with gorgeous co-stars in front of millions of viewers? ObBuffy: Cordy has a soul, I don't care what anybody says. If Buffy had indeed staked her in that Bronze hallway in "WttH," then that would have been a mis-stake! Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:43:45 -0700 From: Lisa Rose Subject: Re: BUFFY: WSWB: Torture (was: Was it chocolate?) At 01:56 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Christopher B. Castro wrote: >Let me then, tell you my reasons for believing that vampires just aren't >good. In order for a vampire to be created, another creature (the >soul of the human), if you will, must be destroyed or ripped out, in order >for the vampire spirit to invade. And *there*, is where I have the biggest >problem. If vampires could propagate without having to destroy/replace the >soul of a human being, there might be better ground for their existence. Yes Grasshopper (to borrow the language of your friend chastising you for email changes), now you are beginning to formulate an moral *absolutist* argument against vamps. I'm not sure it's impregnable (there are those who argue that humans must kill merely to survive; and vamps may not see possessions any differently than we see eating cows), but it's much more substantial than merely falling back on "they have no souls" or "they're bloodthirsty animals," IMHO. >Another question to add to this disccusion. If vampires and humans, in your >opinion, are moral equals and both have equal rights to exist on this >planet, then how on earth (no pun intended) do you view them as villains in >the show? Shouldn't you be feeling sorry for them, furious at that sick >Slayer who keeps killing them all with no remorse? I hate the vampires! I want to see Buffy slaughter them all! Except for Angel, of course, and I'd also like Darla, Luke, Master, and now Absalom to come back because they're cool! I feel moral outrage at what vampires do! But I occasionally remind myself that I'm a human, so I'm biased. If I were a vampire, I might see things *completely* differently. >ObBuffy: Does the Annointed One qualify as a vampire king? What exactly is >his status in vampire society? At this point I'd say his status is that of a target. Lisa ------------------------------ End of buffy Digest V1 #304 *************************** To subscribe to buffy Digest, send the command: subscribe buffy-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-buffy": subscribe buffy-digest local-buffy@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "buffy-digest" in the commands above with "buffy". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/buffy/archive. These are organized by date.