From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest) To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffy-digest V2 #50 Reply-To: buffy@xmission.com Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffy-digest Wednesday, January 21 1998 Volume 02 : Number 050 In this issue: Re: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) BUFFY:SURPISE/INNOCENCE HELP Re: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) RE: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) Re: BUFFY: Two Parter - The ring BUFFY: Is it possible buffy/Angel (spoiler thought) Re: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) BUFFY: Wait..I'm a little confused. Re: BUFFY: Dang you Joss! Re: BUFFY: Two Parter - The ring BUFFY: Jenny as betrayer?????? BUFFY: Reactions Re: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) Re: BUFFY: Something I've noticed Re: BUFFY: Buffy Crew? BUFFY: Jenny's Guilt (was: Too many thoughts) BUFFY: David Boreanaz Re: BUFFY: Part 2 SPOILERS --- How long? Re: BUFFY: Surprise/Innocence - LOTS of comments/spoilers BUFFY: Buffy - Pagers Maybe??? BUFFY: vamp healing (was Role-Reversal BUFFY: Joss rules! BUFFY: Party of Fiends Re: BUFFY: Luke/The Judge, long lost brothers? Re: BUFFY: a little theory (related to tonight's eposide, kinda) BUFFY: Keeper site BUFFY: In defense of Cordy Re: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:22:34 -0500 (EST) From: sah Subject: Re: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) At 12:20 PM 1/21/98 -0500, jjswbt@huskynet.com wrote: >I disagree ..to some degree. If Jenny was sent there to watch Angel..and to >keep Buffy and Angel apart..then she, I assume, knew that happiness on >Angel's part was a "bad thing". [snip] It was pretty obvious to everyone but >Giles that Buffy and Angel were headed exactly where they ended up. Was she so sure they were heading in that direction? Obviously it's possible for a mortal and a vampire to have sex, but did Jenny know this? Was she *really* in a position to keep Angel and Buffy apart? I'm not really convinced her trying to stop them, or even telling them the truth would have prevented the inevitable. Also, it wasn't the act itself that caused Angel to lose his soul--it was the contentment that came with it. That could have happened at any time, any place, whether they knew about the specifics of the curse or not. I still say the only thing she's guilty of is poor judgement, something *everyone* on the show has been guilty of at one time or another. >BTW..what kind of silly curse was that anyway? Angel gets his soul back so >he will suffer. As soon as he stops suffering he goes back to being a >soulless demon . Yeah, I have to agree it doesn't make a lot of sense. Better to dust him if he finds happiness, rather than lose that which gives him some humanity. It also seems inevitable to me that he *would* lose his soul because the humanity in him allows for guilt and contentment, and eventually, he was going to have at least a moment of the latter without the former. - --sah - -- sah * romana@mindspring.com * romana@aol.com NatPack * BotCoS * Jungle Patrol * BBPGrrl:TGLIL * Bishop * BTVS Listowner Nat's B&B: http://free.prohosting.com/~romana/natpack/html My homepage: http://free.prohosting.com/~romana/index.html "I've decided that as much as I want wild sex, right now I'd settle for someone to clean my house." --jk - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:27:36 -0800 From: "F@llen_@ngel" Subject: BUFFY:SURPISE/INNOCENCE HELP I don't think this is spoiler space. I was wondering...if anyone coul send me the two episodes on tape???? I'm willing to make an exchange, for just about anything ($$, blank vid, etc.) Here, both were aired, monday and tuesday, and because of my mother-who-doesn't-know-how-to-work-a-vcr screwed up, I only got the dream sequence in 1/1...can anyone help me? ***************************************************** "Well, you guys don't know. Maybe this time it'll be different." -Xander "It's Angel missage." -Willow "You know why? I am immature. I'm a teen. I have yet to mature." -Buffy ***************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:41:10 -0500 (EST) From: tan3@cornell.edu Subject: Re: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 jjswbt@huskynet.com wrote: > If Jenny was sent there to watch Angel..and to > keep Buffy and Angel apart..then she, I assume, knew that happiness on > Angel's part was a "bad thing". See, here's a major point: from her point of view, and from her clan's, it would be a bad thing for Angel to be happy. They want him to suffer. Therefore, the original people decided, "Hey, if he gets to start _liking_ this curse, he'll be happy, we'll be thwarted, and that ain't our point here." So, they said, "When (If) he ever gets content, the curse will begone, and the remaining people (from the clan) will deal with it then" However, this useful piece of knowledge wasn't passed on to all the members of the clan. I'm more than willing to accept that jenny didn't know. She knew he shouldn't be happy, but she thought it was so that vengence would continue to be fulfilled, not so that he would re-lose his soul. Why can I accept this? I like Jenny, and I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Jenny's problem arose that she began to like both Buffy and Angel and she lost focus on the vengence-thing, especially when Angel became an ally. So, she thought, "He's a good guy. Ah, I'll let him have a bit of happiness." without knowing the full consequences of her actions. What's my point? Jenny didn't betray Buffy since she didn't have access to all the information about the curse. If she *did* actually have all that info, then discard the above message, and put my name on the list of people who wouldn't mind seeing her stoned to death (the type where you throw rocks at the victims, people. Keep your minds focused. :) ) Anyway, them's my thoughts. Tracey tan3@cornell.edu Keeper of the Cluelessness of the Rest of the School - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:27:40 -0800 From: "Sai Wong (Exchange)" Subject: RE: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) A bit of spoiler protection ... S P O I L E R > At 11:01 AM 1/21/98 -0500, Michael Hickerson wrote: > > My question here is did Jenny really betray Buffy? Yes, she > >betrayed her oath and didn't warn Buffy, but I don't see it as > betraying > >Buffy so much as hoping that things would Angel might work out > despite the > >curse. > > I agree, this wasn't really a betrayal. In a way, I can understand > Giles > being upset with her (it's a neat reversal of their earlier > situation). > But I still maintain she didn't do anything wrong except possibly show > poor > judgement. [Sai Wong (Exchange)] Also when Ms Calender found out about the "Angel being happy will break the curse" thing from her Uncle, it was already too late, Buffy and Angel had already consumated their relationship and Angel had turned bad. So there was actually nothing she could have done to prevent it. Ms Calender did not put the curse on Angel (her ancesters did) and did not make him evil (Buffy and Angels happyness did). With regard to Buffy and Giles snapping at Ms Calender, I think that they were both angry and confused by what had happened and wanted to vent their anger. Even when Giles told Ms Calender to "go" he did it in a controled way. Giles was angry, yes, but he also understood that if Ms Calender where in close proximity to them they might incorrectly lash out at her. They needed time to calm down and think things through. Giles, in a way was protecting both Buffy and Ms Calender. > Someone pointed out earlier that Jenny betrayed them by not revealing > her > secret. Well, Buffy and Giles and the Slayerettes have secrets too, > that > they have to keep from people very important to them. I'm thinking of > Joyce in particular. Also, Giles was pretty reluctant to talk about > the > situation with Ethan when it first cropped up, and certainly never > mentioned it until it came to a head. I don't think he ever mentioned > that > he knew Ethan, but I could be wrong about that. [Sai Wong (Exchange)] I don't think Jenny betrayed Buffy. Jenny was given orders to keep a watch on Angel. She was not ordered to kill Angel or anything, just keep a watch on him. You have to remember that Angel is not a goody two shoes, he killed MANY people over the years. If Jenny had told Buffy about her mission she would have betrayed her ancesters and all the victims of the evil Angel. (She would be, in a way, be helping a killer - Angel) > All I'm saying is that Jenny didn't do anything in these episodes that > all > the other characters haven't done as well. I can understand that > there are > hurt feelings, and probably rightly so, but IMO Jenny is *not* > responsible > for what happened to Angel, anymore than Buffy and/or Angel are, or > even > Giles is for not discouraging them. Nobody really is--it's just > something > that happened. [Sai Wong (Exchange)] Agreed. > --sah > > sah * romana@mindspring.com * romana@aol.com > NatPack * Jungle Patrol * Bishop * Bossy the Lost Dwarf * BTVS > Listowner > Nat's B&B (moving shortly): > http://members.aol.com/romana/natpage_stuff/ > "There are billion-dollar fashion and diet and physical-fitness > industries > out there. They have a huge investment in making sure women hate > their > bodies." --Camryn Manheim > > - [Sai Wong (Exchange)] Sai - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:26:31 PST From: "Mz. Gwyn" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Two Parter - The ring <> Won't happen, she gave the ring back to him, after the whole "I'll call you, don't call me" scene Ciao Bellas Mz. Gwyn http://www.geocities.com/~mistressgwyn priestessworship@hotmail.com lgums@msmc.la.edu "the opposite of war is not peace, but creation" Mark RENT-the musical "Whatever is causing the Joan Collins tude, deal with it, embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever, but get over it." Cordelia (WSWB) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:38:36 -0500 From: Python! Subject: BUFFY: Is it possible buffy/Angel (spoiler thought) * * * * * * * * * You know how Buffy was fighting with Angel and said you are not the real Angel? Well maybe she wont be sooo mad at him if/when he gets his soal back. She might know that it is not his fault. But I can bet that they will never be *together* again. I think that the Buffy and Xander thing will start to happen and then Angel will get his soal back, but dont count out Cordy though,(I could be wrong). ^JeNnY^ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:45:40 From: Jeff Rohaly Subject: Re: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) Wendy: >BTW..what kind of silly curse was that anyway? Angel gets his soul back so >he will suffer. As soon as he stops suffering he goes back to being a >soulless demon . Does that sound like a *good* plan? ... Allow me to be >the first to say "Way to go, fellas." Allow me to be the second. I never have understood this curse. So the vampire demon Angelus kills this "dumb as a post" gypsy girl and her clan decides to punish an entity, Angel's soul, that had nothing to do with this death. Sure, the demon is punished too because it no longer gets to kill and feed off human beings and from what it said in Innocence, it's also hurt by the fact that it has to sit idly by as Angel acts all touchy-feely. But the real target of this curse seems to be Angel's soul, as witnessed by the fact that the curse is removed once Angel's soul achieves true happiness. That seems so unfair. I know the clan was after vengeance not justice but I think a simple "make blood taste like garlic" curse on Angelus would have gotten things done. Wouldn't have made for good TV, I'll grant you. On another note, has Joss ever said how far in advance the stories are planned out? For instance, do you think that Jenny's secret background was set when her character was first introduced last year or whether that was decided later as a way to advance the Angel going bad storyline? What about the length of time before Angel's soul is restored? Do you all think that's set in stone or whether Joss and TPTB are open to seeing how it goes (both with respect to good stories coming out of it as well as fan reaction) and adjusting the story as need be? Jeff Rohaly rohaly@iaw.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:52:23 EST From: aurora01@juno.com (Annie L) Subject: BUFFY: Wait..I'm a little confused. I loved this episode. It was uspetting though. I thought the person to betray Buffy was going to be Jenny and not Angel. But anyway, I'm a little confused with something. Did Angel know about the curse and how it could be lifted? If he did, do you think he just slept with Buffy just to be a vampire again? Just a thought... Annie L., Aurora01@juno.com Keeper of Buffy's Library Card, Cordelia's Summer Make-up kit and Allure Magazine and Willow's Adidas Backpack - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:30:03 EST From: VampSlayr6 Subject: Re: BUFFY: Dang you Joss! Me being a big Buffy/Angel fan all I have to say is ::sniff,sniff:: ::cry,cry:: ::sob like buffy,sob like buffy:: I felt a void after last night's episode and I didn't like it. But I'm still faithful to the show and no matter how much Angelus is going to bug me I'm still going to wish he was the same old Angel that loves Buffy. Enough rambling, I'm finished, I guess. Beth Keeper of some cool quotes Buffy's "I can't take care of things! I killed my Giga Pet. Literally. I sat on it and it broke." (which i actually did today by the way, not sat on but left him home when i went to school) Giles' "Trout? Trout! Yes, uh, trout is-is a fish." - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:04:40 -0500 From: Annie Subject: Re: BUFFY: Two Parter - The ring Nicoley99 wrote: > that ring he gave Buffy. "the heart signifies love, and > when its facing towards you, it means you belong to someone". i just saw a girl I used to be friends with and she had the same ring, but I didn't have time to ask her where she got it - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:26:01 -0800 From: Dan Compora Subject: BUFFY: Jenny as betrayer?????? I'm surprised that some of you still see Jenny as the betrayer. Jenny really didn't betray Buffy--it was Angel who turned on her. Jenny certainly had a hidden agenda, but she did nothing to hurt Buffy, albeit she should have shared her information sooner. She had her own conflict to deal with--she may have been inconsiderate, but I wouldn't call her actions betrayal. I hope this Gypsy storyline goes somewhere. Angel could have "turned" on Buffy without the Jenny/gypsy storyline, which appears to have been just a red herring. I hope they pick up this aspect in a future episode. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:20:52 EST From: DaisyFoo14 Subject: BUFFY: Reactions Wow! Oh, wowowowowowow!!!! That was such an incredible episode!!! I was shaking (not staking) throughout the final 3/4, and sobbing at the end. First I was really upset that he was still the evil Angel at the end, but once I thought it over, it was a perfect ending. It was just so tasteful, sophisticated, and I could not stop crying. Just let it burn......(or something like that...) Innocence was just too perfect. Everything was perfectly done...everyone's performance was just....perfect! Everything perfect, perfect, perfect! That talk with Giles in the car...oh! This had a very PG feel, and is tied for my favorite episode w/ PG and Angel. I tend to like these emotional episodes, the ones that make me cry. Joss, thank you, thank you, thank you! This was a beautifully crafted episode. You are a God. Alli T:DaisyFoo14@aol.com-GASPer-Keeper: C's cell phone,sparkle purse, light blue silk dress, X's Tweety Bird watch,Scooby Doo Shirt, robe in trash, newspaper @ Bronze, B's purple-pink lamp,green sunglasses,suitcases, W's light blue rolly hat, maroon quarterback shirt, green and blue V-neck sweater, Giles' dict. stand, Jenny's circle-chain belt. "Think of something cool, tell him I said it."-Buffy,PG - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:26:30 -0500 From: Mark Subject: Re: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) jjswbt@huskynet.com wrote: > BTW..what kind of silly curse was that anyway? Angel gets his soul back so > he will suffer. Does that sound like a *good* plan? ..they make Angel > suffer for 90 years and *then* let a ravening demon back into the world. > Allow me to be the first to say "Way to go, fellas." I *love* this!! And "silly" doesn't even begin to cover it: Suppose I am totally evil, and I attack you and capture your home and lock you in the cellar. Then, using your home as a base of operations, I start systematically killing everyone in the neighborhood. You are locked in the cellar, subjugated and oblivious, and powerless to do a single thing about my evil rampage. Then some members of the tribe of a young woman I've killed decide that the way to make *me* suffer is to let *you* out of the cellar so that *you* can be properly horrified and feel suitably guilty about what *I've* done against your will, living in your house. And meanwhile, they keep *me* chained in your house so that I can make matters worse by attacking you periodically, just for fun. Then (the coup de grace of psychotic illogic), they arrange it so that the moment you experience any happiness whatever, they'll kill *you* and give the house back to *me* -- the actual source of their grievances -- so I can go on yet another rampage, killing yet more innocent people. Well, that's fair. Yep. Way to go, fellas!! Mark - -- markwithak@mindspring.com keeper of Willow's diffidence - ------------------------------------ "it could be me...it's not, though." - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:27:09 EST From: BBallGrrl4 Subject: Re: BUFFY: Something I've noticed In a message dated 98-01-20 00:21:53 EST, you write: << He's also in "The Mighty Ducks" that's where he got his start. >> Just a bit more to that tidbit: his name's Joshua Jackson (charlie in those ducks movies that I used to be so obsessed with when i was little) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:11:50 EST From: BBallGrrl4 Subject: Re: BUFFY: Buffy Crew? In a message dated 98-01-19 12:57:53 EST, you write: Buffy Crew (east coast) and haven't received word of it. I was wondering if someone from the crew could contact me? I live in NJ. >> If you get any info on potential NJ Buffy crews could ya send it my way? I live in Essex.. Thanks ~Caroline - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:50:10 +0000 From: "Amy Sheldon" Subject: BUFFY: Jenny's Guilt (was: Too many thoughts) This does contain spoilers for Surprise and Innocence, so those who haven't seen it should stop reading now. Michael Hickerson My question here is did Jenny really betray Buffy? Yes, she > betrayed her oath and didn't warn Buffy, but I don't see it as > betraying Buffy so much as hoping that things would Angel might work > out despite the curse. Jenny can't be faulted for keeping her mission of watching Angel a secret. Yeah, in retrospect it was a mistake, but as many people have pointed out, most of the characters in BtVS have been caught keeping secrets that later caused problems. If she had come clean immediately, there would have been an initial reaction of shock and anger, but everyone would have realized fairly quickly that it really couldn't be considered her "fault" that Angel had lost his soul, since she didn't know that Angel's relationship with Buffy could break the curse (and from the conversation we saw that she had with her uncle, it looks like she really *didn't* know what would happen). Where she screwed up, and what is going to keep both Buffy and Giles angry at her for a while, is in not telling them what had happened to Angel as soon as she had found out from her uncle. If nothing else, she should have told them immediately after Angel attacked Willow. That probably would have saved her uncle's life, since you know that Buffy would have insisted upon going to him immediately, and they might have beaten Angel to the hotel room. By waiting until she was forced to tell, she made it a lot harder for Buffy and company to believe that she truly didn't know what would happen to Angel if the curse was broken. And by not telling, she gave Buffy a REALLY bad night. Sure, it would be incredibly guilt-producing to know that his love for you made your boyfriend SO happy that he lost his soul; but it would be a lot better than thinking that you'd been so bad in bed that he was driven back to vampirism.... The only way I can see that she could make up for this would be if she were instrumental in returning Angel to the side of light. On the other hand, in Real Life, totally innocent people frequently mess up their lives and are never able to make things right, so maybe we are seeing the end of Ms. Calendar's tenure on BtVS. - ------ Amy Sheldon Member GASP - Giles Appreciation Society Panters Proud Buffyatric & Keeper of The Accent Amy.Sheldon@sff.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 17:06:49 PST From: jphelan@radware.net (Jim Phelan) Subject: BUFFY: David Boreanaz Hey everyone!! I looked in the TV Guide and it didn't ever say when David was going 2 be on Keenan Ivory Wayans. Does anyone know 4 sure when he's going 2 be on there? PLEASE tell me. THANKS, Laura - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:58:04 EST From: BBallGrrl4 Subject: Re: BUFFY: Part 2 SPOILERS --- How long? In a message dated 98-01-21 11:34:02 EST, you write: << I don't care as long as they don't kill him and they do it soon. >> for everyone going to the David chat tonight, I'd have to say that if/how/and when they'll bring him back is the best question to ask....im definitely dying to know..I mean David is a great actor either way but I can't stand to see him hurt Buffy anymore....All i know is that if he is killed off, there will be a huge void in my Buffness seeing as he is one of my favorite characters..just my two cents.. ~Caroline - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:13:04 EST From: Jillium5 Subject: Re: BUFFY: Surprise/Innocence - LOTS of comments/spoilers ok here's some space in case * * * * * * * * >One question it brought to mind was Xander the monkey in >the dream? No I don't believe he was. Do you remeber the whole sceen with Oz where her was saying somthing like. "You know the monkey is the only animal cracker with pants and I wonder if he's all like I mock you with my monkey pants" and he says that in a french accent and willow says "the monkey's french" and oz replies "of course all monkeys are french Ok now on to the ep. I think we'll see the evil angel for a while it will creat tension. And I think what's going to happen once he gets his soul back is he will be so guilty for all that he did and said to buffy he won't be able to face her. It will take a long time for their relationship to heal. Oz can I even express how much I LOVE him and willow. The whole sceen where they're in the van. You would not believe how much I was wimpering I was thinking to myself why can't I ever meet someone as sweet and funny as oz but that's a whole other topic that you don't care about. The Linolium makes me want to have sex from Xander and the You hold your gun like a sissy had me rotf. GREAT JOB JOSS that was the best show yet...and I can't wait till next week with the werewolf. I hope that if oz really is the werewolf somehow he still gets to stick around because it said in the previews that buffy protect the WW from poachers. But judging from the sceens last night after buffy who knows. Jill - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:16:33 -0700 From: "Flora Connor" Subject: BUFFY: Buffy - Pagers Maybe??? There's one thing that keeps bugging me about that last Buffy episode... These people can find any damn thing they need on the web, they can reprogram computers and hack into anything, they can break into and get away with stealing from US Army posts. Why the hell doesn't eveyone have a little thing like a beeper? I mean, come on, for Crist's sake. Every teenager from here to Canada wears one 24/7. And Buffy, the all mighty Slayer who is needed at a moment's notice, can't get a Motorolla going? The whole time that Giles and the gang were in the library going "Where's Buffy?!!?" I couldn't get that out of my head. Anyway, that's my rant for today.... Flora - --- ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Did you ever drool down a Twizler by mistake?" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:24:58 -0600 From: Mia_McDavid@em.fcnbd.com Subject: BUFFY: vamp healing (was Role-Reversal The question of vamp healing was brought up. I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that they heal sort of like people do. If it's broken, slashed, or burnt, it can heal. But, if it's gone, it's gone. OK, let's get really gross here. If you cut a vamp open and eviscerated it, would the cavity close up and the vamp walk around without its guts? Would they regenerate? Here is a place where vamp unkillability pushes the situation into a new direction. Mia I *LOVE* this show~ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:16:22 -0600 From: Mia_McDavid@em.fcnbd.com Subject: BUFFY: Joss rules! OK, guys, my email server must be messed up, because I have *no* new msgs about Innocence today, and I know you all are talking! Anyway, I'm gonna talk about it, so if you haven't watched *what the heck are you waiting for???* There were so many things that were SO cool. A curse with a self-destruct mechanism. Incredible. And that stupid, STUPID uncle, not telling Jenny what would really happen. And then not thinking about the danger to himself. Stupid, stupid, dead dead. Poor Jenny. Not evil. Just mislead by her people, and now so rejected for it. Even Giles: "She said, 'Get out.'" DB must be relishing this chance to flex his acting muscles some. Glee, scorn, mockery, aren't things he's been able to do much with on this show. He was so incredible, wonderfully *vile* the first time he saw Buffy! Buffy's dream after she cried herself to sleep--about Angel in the sunlight, did anybody else think that was *him* trying to reach her, trying to help? His real self, the only part that can withstand the day? Will his soul visit her again in the coming months, offering guidance and comfort? Giles was so wonderful at the end--everything a Watcher and mentor should be. I could have kissed him! Oz is worthy! I wasn't sure before, but he was so wise and so gentle with Willow in the van. It would serve Xander right if Willow actually learned to love him. Oh, I could go on and ON. Bless Joss Weedon. I knew he wouldn't let us down! Mia I *LOVE* this show~ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:33:01 -0800 From: Lisa Rose Subject: BUFFY: Party of Fiends It's kinda strange, but here are some "Little Buffy" movie synopses that were suggested to me and written months before the spoilers for this two-part episode were ever leaked. These two have turned out to be strangely prophetic: 1. BUFFY AND THE BEAST - A wild and happy-go-lucky vampire is cursed by bitter gypsies with the return of his guilt-ridden human soul. Now he spends all his days brooding in a lonely apartment. Only the freely given love of a beautiful young woman (the town's slayer) can lift the curse and return him to his former crazy and carefree ways. At which point she'll have to kill him.... 11. DESPERATELY SEEKING DARLA - Angelus the Vampire has been released from that pesky gypsy curse that restored his human soul by the liberating love of a beautiful young slayer whom he suckered into falling for him. Now with the curse and the slayer out of the way, he frantically searches for his old partner in crime and former supernatural squeeze, Darla, the "Belle of Budapest." His excitement grows as he races to the underground, eager to re-consummate their relationship, already hearing her deadly dulcet tones again in his mind. Then he halts in horror, remembering to his dismay that he killed her. Doh! (The Little Buffy Site is at: http://www.wco.com/~cybrpaws/lilbuffy.html) Speaking of Darla, I bet Angelus IS mad that the darned slayer influenced him to kill her. So is Spike. If Darla were still around, Angelus would have a romantic diversion away from Drusilla. Heck, they could even double-date! (Angel & Darla, Spike & Dru). As it stands, I thought it was kinda interesting for that moment when Angel, Dru, & Spike were like a family again after he lost his soul and returned to them, a demonic Party of Five, "Party of Fiends"? But agreed that it probably can't last. Spike is going to get jealous if the powerful, hunky Angelus horns-in on his woman. And he's already bitter and reduced to manipulation, sitting in his little wheelchair (like the kid from The Secret Garden?), the poor thing. How pathetic was it that the formerly terrifying William-the-Bloody had to hide from the Slayerettes when they showed up at the warehouse? It must have been humiliating for him. Lisa - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:21:21 EST From: Jillium5 Subject: Re: BUFFY: Luke/The Judge, long lost brothers? When I first saw the judge an odd thought poped into my head. I couldn't get over that he was the samw color as windshield wiper fluid I'm odd but that's ok Jill - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:20:56 EST From: BBallGrrl4 Subject: Re: BUFFY: a little theory (related to tonight's eposide, kinda) In a message dated 98-01-19 22:35:40 EST, you write: << Now I think Drusilla is that gypsy girl. >> I was thinking that too...and I had all these great reasons which were drained from my head due to late night midterm cramming...did anyone else notice that the gypsy clan was named the Romanin anymore? just musing.. ~Caroline - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:25:21 EST From: Jillium5 Subject: BUFFY: Keeper site Can someone send me the adress to the keeper site for minor characters/(Oz if there is one) thanks - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:15:33 -0500 From: John Nestoriak Subject: BUFFY: In defense of Cordy Spoilers for all eps up to Innocence. I've been a long-time defender of the hidden virtues of Cordelia. I've always felt that she has a lot of depth that she's intentionally or otherwise hiding from people. And so the Xander/Cordy pairing was a good thing in my book. They're both really characters who hide behind a public face that doesn't reveal who they are. Xander has his joking and Cordy has her popularity and self centeredness. Now I have to admit that my confidence in this was shaken by Cordy's response to Xander in Surprise. When he suggests that they "come out of the closet" (couldn't resist) her response I so harsh that I got the impression that she really was just using him out of her lust. In Innocence she redeems herself a bit. Two key scenes. First Cordy and Xander in the army base. She shows a lot more innocence than I would have thought. Perhaps our Cordy isn't as "experienced" as many had previously assumed. And her genuine compliment toward Xander was great. But more importantly the kiss and make up scene in the library. Cordelia's comment about how Xander would risk death for Buffy but wouldn't for her shows her own genuine care for Xander and his feelings and also her own insecurity. Cordelia seems to be driven by a rather low self-esteem. A lack of feeling lovable. I continue to have high hopes for Xander and Cordelia's future relationship and will proudly continue to oppose all who would besmirch the good name of the fair Cordelia. (tongue firmly inserted in cheek) - -- John Nestoriak * "My shoes are too tight, but it Software Engineer * doesn't matter because I have The Telephone Connection * forgotten how to dance." jnestoriak@telecnnct.com * - Londo Mollari (Babylon 5) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:15:14 -0500 (EST) From: Amber Subject: Re: BUFFY: Too many thoughts (all about Innocence! SPOILERS) On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Mark wrote: > any happiness whatever, they'll kill *you* and give the house back to > *me* -- the actual source of their grievances -- so I can go on yet > another rampage, killing yet more innocent people. Well, that's fair. > Yep. Way to go, fellas!! ::nods head vigorously:: Allow me to add my $0.02 worth on this one myself, as I couldn't help but be absolutely *furious* with teh people who did this to Angel--two wrongs do not make a right, no matter how good it may seem at the time and how hurt you are at the time. Here's my thoughts on what should be done for Angel (AKA the eclectic technopagan's version): A second curse is only going to make matters worse. He needs a "blessing," not a curse, and a good dose of healing afterwards. Why do I say this? Well, the dead giveaway to his current condition was when the Judge said that Spike and Drusilla "reeked of humanity...full of affection and jealousy" and didn't feel an itch from Angel. Spike and Drusilla have more humanity than Angel now??? Great. Just great. Nice and thorough job of "house cleaning". :P Soul retrival, when done properly, isn't a huge deal...if you know what you're doing, that is, and you know the details. Finding someone who is strong and knowledgable enough to help Angel shouldn't be terribly difficult--you could find any type of esoteric worker in Sunnydale, I would think...considering it's right on the Hellmouth, I don't think that people can survive without being a) totally psi-blind or b) sensitive and knowledgable enough to knwo what to do in case...well, you know. They should get someone who's a good healer...a nice trip to the underworld never hurt anyone, huh? * Amber * * Amber SilverWolf/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar/Elektra/O'mra * * * * http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7969 -Amber's Domain * * http://members.tripod.com/~Lolandrea/ -Castle Amber * * http://www.angelfire.com/ny/samilani -Samilani * - - ------------------------------ End of buffy-digest V2 #50 ************************** To subscribe to buffy or buffy-digest, send the command subscribe buffy-digest or subscribe buffy to majordomo@xmission.com. You will need to go through a confirmation process, and the listowners have to manually approve your subscription request, so it may take some time. Back issues of this digest can be found at: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/buffy/archive/ For help, contact Jill Kirby (jtkirby@mcs.com) or sah (romana@mindspring.com)