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Subject: buffy-digest V2 #470
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buffy-digest       Wednesday, September 16 1998       Volume 02 : Number 470



In this issue:

       Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1
       Re: BUFFY:  Angelus vs. Angel
       BUFFY: Buffy vs. Xena article in L.A. Times
       BUFFY: Re: Buffy vs. Xena article in L.A. Times
       BUFFY: Buffy Warrior Princess
       Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1
       Re: BUFFY:  Angelus vs. Angel
       Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1
       Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1
       BUFFY: SMG gets thumbs down from hairstylists on Emmy night
       BUFFY: Re:Angel responsibility
       BUFFY: Angel/responsibility
       BUFFY: A few questions...
       BUFFY:  Angel/Xander
       Re: BUFFY: Buffy&Giles?
       BUFFY: Re: Buffy vs. Xena article in L.A. Times
       RE: BUFFY: A few questions...
       Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1
       Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1
       BUFFY: Angel and Illness (was Re: Angelus/Xander debates)
       BUFFY: Angel and Illness (was Re: Angelus/Xander debates)

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy
or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:20:28 EDT
From: Tracyrr74@aol.com
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1

In a message dated 9/16/98 12:21:06 PM Central Daylight Time,
fanggang@cx57791-a.alsv1.occa.home.com writes:

<< He most
 certainly invited the demon in.  After hitting on Darla, he jumps at her
 offer of excitement.  
 
 Darla:  I could show you. (smiles)
 Angel:  Sounds exciting.
 Darla:  It is. And frightening.
 Angel:  I'm not afraid. Show me. Show me your world.
 (excerpted from slayerfanfic.com) >>

I didn't take it as his knowing that she was a vampire. He saw a beautfiul
woman and wanted to see new and exciting things. If we didn't know Darla was a
vampire would have assumed automatically that she was? To me he thought she
was just someone that did new things and he wanted to go with her, instead of
where helived. Did this make sense?  <g>  NOt too sure I am really tired and
know what I want to say but don't know if it came out right  :)

Tra

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:21:35 EDT
From: Tracyrr74@aol.com
Subject: Re: BUFFY:  Angelus vs. Angel

In a message dated 9/16/98 12:26:08 PM Central Daylight Time,
genevieve@gist.com writes:

<< I know there is an episode where Buffy said "Vampires suck your blood, and
 then you suck their blood.  It is this whole sucking thing."  It might have
 been Welcome to the Hellmouth or Lie to Me.  Can someone confirm this? >>

It was in Welcome to the Hellmouth ( I just watched it last night) :)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:23:29 EDT
From: fun-ee@juno.com (fun ee)
Subject: BUFFY: Buffy vs. Xena article in L.A. Times

The Daily News of Los Angeles 
September 2, 1998, Wednesday 


BODY: 
Think Joan Crawford at her ''Mommie Dearest'' worst. Now, think of all 
that twisted fury unleashed in a whirl of kick boxing, sword-wielding 
and bone-crushing mayhem, and you get an idea what today's TV female 
action heroines are like. In the '60s we had ''The Avengers'' with Emma 
Peel (Diana Rigg) and ''Honey West'' (starring Anne Francis in the title 
role), but their karate moves look positively dainty compared to the 
likes of today's TV terminators - Xena, Warrior Princess (Lucy Lawless) 
and Buffy the Vampire Slayer (Sarah Michelle Gellar). Now, some fans 
prefer watching ''Buffy,'' which returns with new episodes at 8 p.m. 
Sept. 29 on KTLA (Channel 5), with its teen-age star and her 
scorched-demon policy, while others favor ''Xena,'' which begins its new 
season at 9 p.m. Oct. 3, also on KTLA, with it slice-and-dice queen (we 
mean princess). 

To settle the debate (peaceably) over which show is the baddest (like in 
good), we had our panel of experts (well, more like fanatics) dissect 
the strengths of each series: 


Best Makeup Effects 
(Featuring the creatures) 

''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' 
No, we're not taking about Gellar's eyeliner (it can be frightening), 
but some impressive creature makeup effects from vampires, werewolves, 
giant worm demons and last, but not least, the half-fish Sunnydale High 
swim team. 

The prosthetic effects for the Warrior Princess are ambitious (centaurs 
and other creatures) but don't seem to come off as well as the Slayer's 
show. 


Best Actress 
(That's like asking who can smash faces better. OK, a legitimate 
question but we couldn't decide.) 

Draw 


Best Costume 
(Finally, something important) 

''Xena, Warrior Princess'' 
While colorful, Buffy's dizzying teen trash fashions are enough to make 
any mother race for a Valium or any viewer wondering if they're feeling 
the effects of bad sushi. The Warrior Princess wins this one with a 
classic brass-brassiere-and-leather ensemble. 


Best Love Interest 
(Sleeping with the enemy) 

''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' 
The Slayer's main squeeze is the vampire Angel (David Boreanaz), who has 
been cursed by having his human soul returned to him. This had the 
effect of making him a kinder and gentler vampire and one tormented 
puppy dog. Buffy fell hard and gave up her virginity to him (more or 
less discreetly off camera). Unknown to either, there was a clause in 
the curse that if Angel experienced ''one moment of true happiness,'' 
the curse would be lifted and his human soul would be taken away. Well, 
Angel experienced that moment during his night with the Slayer, and it 
turned him back to his vicious vampire self, vowing to kill Buffy, her 
family and friends (talk about being dumped the morning after!). 

Xena's love life is a little too extensive to catalog here. However, in 
her own beware-of-casual-sex episode, after a one-night stand with a 
young Julius Caesar, the ruler returns the next day to order her 
crucified and have her legs broken! Even Xena's gal pal, Gabrielle 
(Renee O'Connor), had her husband murdered by Callisto (more about her 
later) after their wedding night. These women just have to learn the 
B-movie golden rule: If you have sex, somebody has to die. 


Best Special Effects 
(Best bug-eyed monsters) 

''Xena, Warrior Princess'' 
The effects house for ''Xena,'' Flat Earth Productions, produces some 
remarkable effects for a weekly syndicated TV show. Computer-generated 
dragons, winged harpies and even the watery god Poseidon regularly 
populate the series. 

Buffy seems only to manage an endless series of vampire disintegration 
scenes, and in the dramatic season finale, in which a door to hell is 
opened, the visual effect looked like an outtake from a bad Drano 
commercial. 


Best Villain 
(You can't keep a bad girl down) 

''Xena, Warrior Princess'' 
Warrior Queen/Goddess Callisto (portrayed by actress Hudson Leick in a 
clawing cat scream of a performance) hurtles onto the screen like a 
Pakistani tactical nuke about to go critical. Callisto, who blames Xena 
for the death of her family, has dedicated her life to the destruction 
of the Warrior Princess and her nearest and dearest. A brief chronology 
of Callisto's career: orphaned at an early age; trained herself in the 
martial arts; raised an army to commit numerous atrocities, defeated by 
Xena in personal combat; imprisoned, escapes, commits more atrocities; 
defeated again by the Warrior Princess; murders Gabriel's husband; dies 
by drowning in quicksand (while Xena watches); comes back from Hades; 
switches bodies with Xena; sent back to Hades; switches bodies again 
with Xena; becomes immortal; disfigured by fire; trapped underground; 
becomes a goddess; encased in molten lava; assists in the murder of 
Xena's son; trapped in an alternate dimension and killed (don't you
believe 
it) with a poisoned, goddess-slaying dagger in the season finale. 

Honorable mention has to go to Buffy for producing a larger number of 
interesting adversaries week in and week out, with honorable mention for 
Spike (James Marsters) and Drusilla (Juliet Landau), referred to by 
executive producer Joss Whedon as the ''Sid and Nancy of the vampire 
set.'' 


Best Writing 
(You've got to be kidding) 

''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' 
Surprising to anybody who hasn't seen the show, ''Buffy'' is actually a 
very satiric look at the suburban high-school experience. Producer Joss 
Whedon has managed to keep the high-concept program consistently fresh 
and interesting, with good characterizations and plot twists. 

The best that can be said of ''Xena'' is that it has a no-holds-barred 
attitude. One episode featured an ancient Greek remake of ''The Poseidon 
Adventure'' (not the god, but the Irwin Allen disaster movie), while 
another was a complete musical. All of this gives it a zany but very 
uneven feel. 


Best Action 
(Wham, bam, don't call me ma'am) 

''Xena, Warrior Princess'' 
Although some viewers might find Xena's almost-surreal Hong Kong style 
of action too silly, there's no denying they've done some spectacular 
stunts. Most memorable: a seaside chariot race/battle between Xena and 
Callisto (again). 

Honorable mention goes to ''Slayer,'' whose more realistic Hollywood 
style of action imparts a greater air of menace. 


Best Supporting Cast 
(Suffering sidekicks) 

''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' 
The Slayer's show has a great secondary cast of characters: school 
librarian and Buffy's mentor Rupert Giles (Anthony Stewart Head), 
hapless sidekick Xander Harris (Nicholas Brendon), class brain and 
Buffy's best friend Willow Rosenburg (Alyson Hannigan), and spoiled 
cheerleader/Xander's love interest Cordelia Chase (Charisma Carpenter). 

Although sidekick Gabrielle (Renee O'Conner) has a growing cult 
following, Xena's supporting cast is about as helpful as an anchor 
thrown to a drowning Warrior Princess. 


Best Weapons 
(A cut above....) 

''Xena, Warrior Princess'' 
The Warrior Princess is very coolly equipped with broadsword, dagger, 
chakra (a razor-sharp Frisbee), bullwhip, hidden stiletto concealed 
between her breastplates and her war horse, Argo. 

By comparison, Buffy seems like a lamb (she doesn't even have a driver's 
license) being led to the slaughter with only a cross, holy water and a 
wooden stake. Occasionally she is armed with a crossbow but almost 
invariably misses and then has to rely on her martial-arts skills and 
some found object lying around the set to stake out her victim. 


Best Season Finale 
(All's well that doesn't end in hell) 

''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' 
In a very dramatic end to this year's season, Buffy reveals her secret 
identity to her mother and makes a pact with the devil by allying 
herself with Spike. Buffy's former vampire lover Angel regains his soul; 
however, in order to save the world, she's forced to send him back to 
hell at swordpoint. Despondent, she becomes a runaway, leaving 
Sunnydale. 

A lot certainly happened in ''Xena's'' finale. Callisto dies (again), 
Gabrielle's demon daughter dies (again), the world is saved (this 
happens pretty much every week), and Gabrielle dies (for the first 
time). Unfortunately, we've seen it all before. What the Warrior 
Princess really needs is a season finale in which her entire writing 
staff goes off the cliff. 


Score: 
''Xena, Warrior Princess'' 5.5 
''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' 5.5 


- ---------------------------------------------

You'll all notice that Buffy got Best Writing!  That says it all...cause
without those magic scripts, you don't got much.  Furthermore, it is the
writing that endures and sooner or later it will be acknwoledged.  I
PREDICT: Next year we'll see Buffy the Vampire Slayer nominated for
either a Best Acting, Best Writing or Best Directing award, and
deservedly so.

funee







_____________________________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:37:25 EDT
From: fun-ee@juno.com (fun ee)
Subject: BUFFY: Re: Buffy vs. Xena article in L.A. Times

Sorry I forgot to include the title of the Los Angeles Times Article
about Buffy and Xena:


HEADLINE: BATTLE OF THE SCREAM QUEENS; WE RATE TV'S HOTTEST ACTION 
STARS: LUCY LAWLESS AND SARAH MICHELLE GELLAR 
The Daily News of Los Angeles 
September 2, 1998, Wednesday, 


...thought you all might want to know especially you librarians and
website archivists out there.

funee   





_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:45:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Descending Muse <dguevin@zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: BUFFY: Buffy Warrior Princess

One of the coolest things that I saw at DragonCon was a production of
Buffy Warrior Princess.  It was filled with that witty Buffy humor, music
and wierd games. Buffy and the gand go back into the time of Xena and
asume roles of characters who they are closely likke.

Reality is for those who lack imagination...
********************************************
 Willow:  (smiles)  You lack a guy.
 Buffy:  I do.  Which is fine with me, most of the time, but...
 Willow:  What about Angel?
 Buffy:  Angel?  I'd like to see him in a relationship.  'Hi, honey,
 you're in grave danger.  I'll see you next month.'
 Willow:  He's not around much, it's true.
 Buffy:  (looks dreamy)  When he is around... it's like the lights dim
 everywhere else.  You know, it's like that with some guys.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 98 15:12:00 CDT
From: Mickie Erickson <Mickie@decisionsys.com>
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1

> Angel knew he had a demon inside of him, that for the time being he was
> able to control..  He didn't know how, when or why that demon might
> re-emerge.  He chose to establish a very serious relationship with   
Buffy

I don't see any indication that he had any trouble controlling the demon   
in the past.  If the demon was going to make trouble, you'd think it   
would do so when Angel was reeling around half starved. He'd gone nearly   
100 years without killing anyone, and without any sign that the curse was   
going to be broken by  anyone or anything.  Dispite the similarities,   
this isn't Forever Knight, you can't assume that the same rules apply.   
 So I think that Angel can be excused for a bit of complacency, thinking   
that the curse couldn't be broken by accident and thus going about his   
life the best he could and in the process aquiring friends and lovers.

I stand by my traffic accident analogy,  Angel losing his soul was a   
tragic accident that our heros could not have reasonably forseen, based   
on 100 years of empirical data.  If you want to blame someone blame the   
gypsies for willfully withholding vital data.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mickie Erickson (mickie@decisionsys.com)
  "You are finite, Zathrus is finite, this is wrong tool"
                                              - Zathrus, Babylon 5




- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 98 15:19:00 CDT
From: Mickie Erickson <Mickie@decisionsys.com>
Subject: Re: BUFFY:  Angelus vs. Angel

>Didn't he invite the demon in 200 years ago?  To particpate in the   
"whole
>sucking thing"  don't you have to make a choice to suck the vampires   
blood?
>Maybe he wants him out now, but he wanted him in at some point.

Sorry, I'm not buying that Darla gave Angel full disclosure of what he   
was getting himself into.
I saw no indication that Angel even knew that Darla was a vampire.  As   
far as he was conserned, he was flirting (while drunk) with a beautiful   
lady of dubius virture who suddenly takes a chunk out of his neck,  while   
he is realing in shock she forces her blood into his mouth, and   
swallowing is a semi-automatic reflex.

Mickie
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mickie Erickson (mickie@decisionsys.com)
  "You are finite, Zathrus is finite, this is wrong tool"
                                              - Zathrus, Babylon 5




- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:33:35 EDT
From: Toph179@aol.com
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1

In a message dated 9/16/98 8:17:45 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Mickie@decisionsys.com
writes:

<< I stand by my traffic accident analogy,  Angel losing his soul was a   
 tragic accident that our heros could not have reasonably forseen, based   
 on 100 years of empirical data.  If you want to blame someone blame the   
 gypsies for willfully withholding vital data. >>


AMEN!!!  For what it's worth, I agree completely.  Even Jenny didn't realize
until it was too late about "the catch" to the curse, and why didn't she know
that if she was sent to watch Angel anyway.  And what's up with the moment of
happiness bit anyway?  Why would the gypsies put a clause like that in it?
They knew how bad the demon Angelus was.  Why would they want to have any
other person or clan or whatever go through that?  A curse is supposed to make
the person suffer.  Taking the soul back "if he has a moment of happiness" is
just plain dumb.

Just my thoughts.
louise

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:37:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ben Scofield <aramis@wam.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1

On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Autumn Nazarian wrote:

> My one original point, however, is that of questioning why the soul (if
> gone) retains the memory of the demon's deeds.  If it is gone, why does
> it remember and regret??

possible answer--

in a NORMAL resoulment, it wouldn't (if the demon were somehow cast out
for good).  what Angel went through, though, was a CURSE.  perhaps it
turns out that there is a clause the gypsies added to another ritual to
get the curse, whereby the in-reality innocent soul gets the memories SO
THAT the suffering would commence.

personally I think the gypsies made the same mistake that a lot of the
people on the list have made (and Xander and Cordy and Kendra made)- Angel
didn't do all those bad things.  Angelus did.  Look at the immediate
aftermath of the curse.  Angel has no clue what's going on until the
memories of the demon's doings hit him.  The gypsies did all they could do
in punishing somebody.  There was no way to make the demon regret, so they
did the next best thing- call back the soul and make IT feel like crap.
Not very fair, if you ask me, but a) nobody did, and b) losing the favored
daughter of your tribe makes you a little crazy, I suppose.

ben scofield


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:38:29 -0700
From: "Ash or Shelley" <moondoggie@thegrid.net>
Subject: BUFFY: SMG gets thumbs down from hairstylists on Emmy night

EEK!!
Just got this through news, (forgive if its been posted!)

"Those whose do's were deemed definite don'ts by those in the know: Buffy
the Vampire Slayer's Sarah Michelle Gellar;..."

Was her hair really that bad?
You can find this article at:
http://www.mrshowbiz.com/news/todays_stories/980915/hair091598.html
Gidget


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:41:25 PDT
From: "Elka Priest" <elka_knits@hotmail.com>
Subject: BUFFY: Re:Angel responsibility

De-lurking, finally, to put in my 2cents worth on this subject.  We all 
know Angel was angst ridden over vampy actions of past.  We also know 
Angelus' actions were driven in part for his feelings towards Buffy.  At 
one point he says he hates her for making him feel[not an exact quote, 
obviously].  So it seems to me that Angelus and Angel are one and the 
same.  Angelus has the memories and reacts to experiences of Angel.  
Angel has the memories and reacts to experiences of Angelus.  When they 
showed original reinstatement of soul old gypsy guy said soon you will 
remember everybody you killed--the face of our daughter and all the 
others[again from memory]  he made no differentiation between a person 
w/a soul and one w/o a soul.  I think it is safe to say that in 
Buffyland a soul is the same as a conscious- this BTW is also a 
theological argument-having a soul is knowing right from wrong and 
caring about it.  Just because Angelus has no soul does not mean he 
isn't aware of right and wrong or even the consequences of his actions 
but rather that he doesn't care about such things.

  Vampies other than Angelus show human feelings and motivations.  They 
are also aware of consequences of actions.  Dru tortured Angel for 
killing family and turning her into Vamp---anger, spite, vengence etc.  
Spite taunted Angelus w/his feelings for Buffy and pointed out that he 
was mucking things up-a sure sign of knowing consequences of actions.  
He also worked w/Buffy to get Angelus out of the way and "save" 
Dru--jealousy, love.  Angelus stuck around to watch Buffy's reaction to 
Miss C's death[knowing what it would be and delighting in it] All those 
Vampies who quaked in fear of masters and Spikes reaction to their 
failures etc.  If Dru was given a soul do you think she would be less 
tortured for seeing future, less unbalanced because of family's murder?  
Or if Spike was given a soul he would care for Dru less?  Just because 
they show no remorse/guilt for killing and meyham doesn't change who 
they intrinsically are as beings.

  signing off before rambling gets too long
  elka_knits@hotmail.com

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 98 16:48:21 EDT
From: <csummers@banyan.utelfla.com> (Charles Summers)
Subject: BUFFY: Angel/responsibility

It seems like it is impossible to talk about Angel/Angelus and Xander's 
treatment of him/it without assigning blame.

It doesn't matter who or what is responsible for Jenny's death--the fact is 
that if Buffy had kept Angel at arm's length, as one should any vampire, 
none of the Angelus trouble would have ever happened.

That doesn't make it Buffy's fault either, she couldn't of known what would 
happen.  She should have treated Angel with caution and suspicion as the 
slayer, and maintained a detached cool about him.

Whatever his motives, Xander rightly saw Angel as an accident waiting to 
happen--and that is the real point, not assigning blame.

Chas


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:26:20 EDT
From: Chewie615@aol.com
Subject: BUFFY: A few questions...

1) The person with the book covers...  Is it a WB montage or strictly a Buffy
book cover?
2) Could someone please give me the date for the WB article in the New York
Times a few days back?  Or the link to where I can look it up on the net.  I'd
really appreciate it!  Or if someone even has it trascribed, that'd be
wonderful!
3) I sent in my money for Gold Seating at the Creation Convention, is anyone
else plannig on attending?  I'd love to meet up with Dave again if I can and
anyone else that wants to go.  You don't need to buy Gold Seating if you
attend, however, you're not guaranteed an autograph if you don't have at least
Preferred...  which is still upwards of $40, but it doesn't mean you can't
just pay regular price!  Buffy fans unite!

OK, I'm done...
Mary

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:37:11 -0400
From: genevieve@gist.com (Genevieve Faulkner)
Subject: BUFFY:  Angel/Xander

This is kind of a spoiler from the book Blooded regarding how Angel feels
about Xander.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
Angel says that he is glad Xander feels animosity towards him because he
knows that if "something" ever happens again, Xander will protect the
others.  While this book is not by Joss it sheds some light on the subject.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:38:00 EDT
From: CrzyBluSk8@aol.com
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Buffy&Giles?

In a message dated 98-09-16 09:41:43 EDT, Toph179@aol.com writes:

<< There have been other hints that they are feeling something outside of 
 just  a professional Slayer/Watcher  relationship, but this is as blatent
 as you can get without crossing the line into felony land.  Wither goest
 this star-crossed pair?>> >>

Personally, I thought they had a father daughter relashonship.

Dagh, Summer, whatever you wanna call me

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:37:58 EDT
From: fun-ee@juno.com (fun ee)
Subject: BUFFY: Re: Buffy vs. Xena article in L.A. Times

Another correction.   This article was not from the L.A. Times it was
from The Daily News of Los Angeles.

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxwell House Coffe Culpa,
funee  (:




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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:39:47 -0400
From: genevieve@gist.com (Genevieve Faulkner)
Subject: RE: BUFFY: A few questions...

I sent in my money for Gold Seating at the Creation Convention

Where is the Creation Convention you are going to?  I heard there is one in
NY in the Spring, is this the one you are talking about?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:45:43 EDT
From: CrzyBluSk8@aol.com
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1

In a message dated 98-09-16 13:10:21 EDT, rohaly@iaw.com writes:

<< But I don't accept your analogy.  I would see it more as: you invite a
 friend to walk over to your house one night, knowing that a murderer is on
 the loose in your neighborhood and several people have been killed by that
 person over the last few days.  Your friend is then killed by this person
 on the way over to your house.  Do you feel some of the blame?   >>

My question is, if it's true love, can you help falling head over heels in it?

Dagh

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:51:05 EDT
From: CrzyBluSk8@aol.com
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's Angel Speech in Becoming Pt1

In a message dated 98-09-16 13:23:08 EDT,
fanggang@cx57791-a.alsv1.occa.home.com writes:

<< So yeah, he's responsible for getting "infected" with the demon.  And thus
 indirectly responsible for the demons actions.  I'm with Xander and the
 late Kendra on this, "He should die".
 >>

But think about it. It's the 1750's you're walking the streets and you see a
girl in a dark alleyway. The word "whore" probably comes to mind. "I could
show you the world" sounds a bit like a modest way of saying "Let's have sex".

So when you think about it, he thought they were going to have sex, nothing
more.
Can you really blame him for being ignorant of Demons,vampires, and such? I
didn't think so.

Dagh

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:46:10 -0400
From: optimist2@mail.snet.net
Subject: BUFFY: Angel and Illness (was Re: Angelus/Xander debates)

Charles Summers wrote:

>So I guess you wouldn't mind having a schizophrenic around all the time
>with one sweet and one murderous personality?

Tracyrr74@aol.com then replied:

>>Well heck,  IF he looked that good (like I think Angel does) : sure why
>>not!!!
Bring him on <grinning><<

OKay, I'm just going to take a deep breath here. Phew...alright, now I can
start. I'll make this as short and sweet as possible because what I'm about
to say is off topic . (Don't worry list moms, it will eventually relate to
Buffy.) When you bring  mental illness into casual conversation, you have
to be careful. Not only because its a very sensitive issue, but because of
all the societal stereotyping, discrimination, and prejudice that comes
with it. I'm sure that when Charles wrote this he had no intention at all
of being insulting or disrespectful. But this still needs to be addressed.
My first problem is the misuse of the word "schizophrenic". Schizophrenia
is not the medical condition of having split personalites, that is refered
to as Multiple Personality Disorder. So now that that is cleared up let me
get to my next problem. That is, people who do have MPD do not necessarily
have a "murderous" personality. Mental illness can affect anyone, whether
they be the sweet "girl next door" or a convicted criminal. It really irks
me how much the word "schizophrenic" is misused. So Charles, would I mind
having a schizophrenic around all the time? Nope, not at all. Because I do.
I'm not angered or trying to blow this up, I just figured I'd clear up a
few misconceptions.

- -If anyone really wants to understand the difference between these 2
illnesses, I'd be happy to help. Or I'd suggest doing some realize. But as
this is a Buffy list I'm going to try and get back to the point. -

Does this relate to Angel? I think so. Everyone has had great arguments on
both sides but I tend to think of Angel as Angel and Angelus as what he
is--a demon. Now is it easy to see this if your Xander, Willow, or even
Buffy? Probably not. One of the hardest things in the world is to live
around someone who gets "changed" and acts completely opposite from the
person you once knew. Not only that, but the person may do and say hurtful
things they normally wouldn't. A person who is schizophrenic is a clear
example of this, if you actually know a thing about the disease. The person
still retains all of their old memories and thoughts, but ultimately they
are not in control of themselves. Sound familiar anyone? This by no means
implies that the person is a great threat to society and becomes a
homocidal "maniac" overnight. The person however may still be a danger to
themselves and to others. So should a person who has been treated for
schizophrenia, note the word *treated*  because today there is still  no
cure, stay away from everyone they have ever loved because there is a
chance they may have a relapse at any given time? Is this one possibility?
Sure. But can that person become a useful member of society like anyone
else? Of course, this is exactly what Angel did. Now I'm sure a lot of
people feel that it should have ended there; that Angel should have known
better than to get involved with Buffy. But imagine you were that person
living alone for so long, is it better not to be with someone because you
have a fault that could hurt the other person? To not have friends and
people who are like family to you? Love is a risk. And I'm not just talking
about the love Buffy and Angel shared. Yeah, Angel knew he was at risk, but
I can't see blaming him for what's happened either time.

On the same note I can't really "blame" (and I hate that word) Xander too
much. Everyone is going to react to a situation like this differently.
Quick hypotherical here: You know 2 people who are gyspsy-cursed vampires
who lose their souls. One is your brother who you've loved for 17 years,
the other is a girl or guy you've never really liked. They both do equally
horrible things like Angelus does. You have a chance to restore their
souls. Which one do you choose and why? This may seem like an obvious
example, but I hope you get my point. Xander's reaction is one of confusion
and hurt. Xander is hurting like everyone else in Buffy. He has had to
adjust to some serious life-altering events in the last 2 years that aren't
easy to anyone. This is why I love this show so much. We saw how
realistically Joss handled Buffy's PTSD after "Prophecy Girl". Joss doesn't
just make everything "all better" or black and white. Hell, if he did we
couldn't be having these debates all the time. :) And we can't paint Angel
or Xander into the picture we want whether it be good or bad. This is
another point I want to make. It seems to me that some people think that
Angel supporters are or should be Xander haters and vice versa. That seems
ridiculous to me if not extremely childish.  I'll be the first one to admit
that I love the Angel/Buffy romance on the show, but I'm not going to hate
Xander because of this. Xander did something he shouldn't and *gasp* he
lied. Do I agree with what he did? No. Do I think hhis intentions were pure
in trying to help Buffy? No way. Do I believe lying is a good thing? No.
But do I hate Xander now because he made a mistake? Nope...I see it for
what it was--a mistake. Joss wants us to have a natural reaction of anger
towards Xander here, but we can't forget that Xander is human, he makes
mistakes. We don't have to agree with what happened--just accept it. And
let's not gloss over that one word people seem to forget..forgiveness.  It
won't be easy by any means at all, but its not unrealistic either.

I have so many more thoughts rolling around in my head right now but I
think this is enough. Now I'll just sit back and read everyone else's mail.
Thanks to all who have read.

- --Ann



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:00:40 -0400
From: optimist2@snet.net
Subject: BUFFY: Angel and Illness (was Re: Angelus/Xander debates)

** Sorry if this gets double posted I got an error message the first time**

Charles Summers wrote:

>So I guess you wouldn't mind having a schizophrenic around all the time
>with one sweet and one murderous personality?

Tracyrr74@aol.com then replied:

>>Well heck,  IF he looked that good (like I think Angel does) : sure why
>>not!!!
Bring him on <grinning><<

OKay, I'm just going to take a deep breath here. Phew...alright, now I can
start. I'll make this as short and sweet as possible because what I'm about
to say is off topic . (Don't worry list moms, it will eventually relate to
Buffy.) When you bring  mental illness into casual conversation, you have
to be careful. Not only because its a very sensitive issue, but because of
all the societal stereotyping, discrimination, and prejudice that comes
with it. I'm sure that when Charles wrote this he had no intention at all
of being insulting or disrespectful. But this still needs to be addressed.
My first problem is the misuse of the word "schizophrenic". Schizophrenia
is not the medical condition of having split personalites, that is refered
to as Multiple Personality Disorder. So now that that is cleared up let me
get to my next problem. That is, people who do have MPD do not necessarily
have a "murderous" personality. Mental illness can affect anyone, whether
they be the sweet "girl next door" or a convicted criminal. It really irks
me how much the word "schizophrenic" is misused. So Charles, would I mind
having a schizophrenic around all the time? Nope, not at all. Because I do.
I'm not angered or trying to blow this up, I just figured I'd clear up a
few misconceptions.

- -If anyone really wants to understand the difference between these 2
illnesses, I'd be happy to help. Or I'd suggest doing some realize. But as
this is a Buffy list I'm going to try and get back to the point. -

Does this relate to Angel? I think so. Everyone has had great arguments on
both sides but I tend to think of Angel as Angel and Angelus as what he
is--a demon. Now is it easy to see this if your Xander, Willow, or even
Buffy? Probably not. One of the hardest things in the world is to live
around someone who gets "changed" and acts completely opposite from the
person you once knew. Not only that, but the person may do and say hurtful
things they normally wouldn't. A person who is schizophrenic is a clear
example of this, if you actually know a thing about the disease. The person
still retains all of their old memories and thoughts, but ultimately they
are not in control of themselves. Sound familiar anyone? This by no means
implies that the person is a great threat to society and becomes a
homocidal "maniac" overnight. The person however may still be a danger to
themselves and to others. So should a person who has been treated for
schizophrenia, note the word *treated*  because today there is still  no
cure, stay away from everyone they have ever loved because there is a
chance they may have a relapse at any given time? Is this one possibility?
Sure. But can that person become a useful member of society like anyone
else? Of course, this is exactly what Angel did. Now I'm sure a lot of
people feel that it should have ended there; that Angel should have known
better than to get involved with Buffy. But imagine you were that person
living alone for so long, is it better not to be with someone because you
have a fault that could hurt the other person? To not have friends and
people who are like family to you? Love is a risk. And I'm not just talking
about the love Buffy and Angel shared. Yeah, Angel knew he was at risk, but
I can't see blaming him for what's happened either time.

On the same note I can't really "blame" (and I hate that word) Xander too
much. Everyone is going to react to a situation like this differently.
Quick hypotherical here: You know 2 people who are gyspsy-cursed vampires
who lose their souls. One is your brother who you've loved for 17 years,
the other is a girl or guy you've never really liked. They both do equally
horrible things like Angelus does. You have a chance to restore their
souls. Which one do you choose and why? This may seem like an obvious
example, but I hope you get my point. Xander's reaction is one of confusion
and hurt. Xander is hurting like everyone else in Buffy. He has had to
adjust to some serious life-altering events in the last 2 years that aren't
easy to anyone. This is why I love this show so much. We saw how
realistically Joss handled Buffy's PTSD after "Prophecy Girl". Joss doesn't
just make everything "all better" or black and white. Hell, if he did we
couldn't be having these debates all the time. :) And we can't paint Angel
or Xander into the picture we want whether it be good or bad. This is
another point I want to make. It seems to me that some people think that
Angel supporters are or should be Xander haters and vice versa. That seems
ridiculous to me if not extremely childish.  I'll be the first one to admit
that I love the Angel/Buffy romance on the show, but I'm not going to hate
Xander because of this. Xander did something he shouldn't and *gasp* he
lied. Do I agree with what he did? No. Do I think hhis intentions were pure
in trying to help Buffy? No way. Do I believe lying is a good thing? No.
But do I hate Xander now because he made a mistake? Nope...I see it for
what it was--a mistake. Joss wants us to have a natural reaction of anger
towards Xander here, but we can't forget that Xander is human, he makes
mistakes. We don't have to agree with what happened--just accept it. And
let's not gloss over that one word people seem to forget..forgiveness.  It
won't be easy by any means at all, but its not unrealistic either.

I have so many more thoughts rolling around in my head right now but I
think this is enough. Now I'll just sit back and read everyone else's mail.
Thanks to all who have read.

- --Ann



- -

------------------------------

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