From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest) To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffy-digest V3 #20 Reply-To: buffy@lists.xmission.com Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffy-digest Wednesday, January 13 1999 Volume 03 : Number 020 In this issue: BUFFY: Wanda Spoilers From Eonline BUFFY: QUESTION! Re: BUFFY: QUESTION! BUFFY: Gingerbread: Amy et al. BUFFY: Gingerbread: Amy et al. BUFFY: Gingerbread - audio issues BUFFY: Joyce BUFFY: Hansel and Gretel BUFFY: Admin: Spoiler Space Re: BUFFY: Joyce Re: BUFFY: Gingerbread Re: BUFFY: Tonight's episode was like "The Crucible" RE: BUFFY: Spoiler for Unknown Ep Re: BUFFY: Joyce BUFFY: Michael BUFFY: "Gingerbread" BUFFY: Faith returning Next Week BUFFY: Review--Gingerbread **SPOILERS!!** Re: BUFFY: A new guy for Buffy? Re: BUFFY: Joyce See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:38:49 -0500 (EST) From: cn2759@coastalnet.com (JW) Subject: BUFFY: Wanda Spoilers From Eonline Saw a couple of posts about some of the things Wanda mentioned during her weekly chat. Below is everything she mentioned on Buffy some is 'WOW'! S P O L I E R S Wanda, what's going on with Willow and Xander? Their relationship (friendship and otherwise) seems to have come to a quick stop. It's not Willow and Xander you should be concernen about. It's Xander and Faith, because they sleep together in an upcoming episode after Xander saves her. How 'bout that for a scoop? From flashlight: I thought you said Faith was leaving Buffy. Not sure. I do know that a new watcher (a real one this time) comes to town very soon and shakes things up. From crs123: So are Xander and Faith going to be a couple or just really embarrassed? No, but what it does is get Buffy interested. See, Faith asks Buffy if she's ever slept with Xander, which starts Buffy thinkin'... From mustang23: Any info on the Willow being raped rumor? My sources say not true. I think it may have been started because Buffy and Willow get caught by a group of hoodlums, from what I understand, but my sources don't know anything about a rape. From clover21: Any other Buffy scoop, Wanda? Please? Okay, yes. Xander starts to feel really left out, thanks to Cordy. The gang is off fighting vamps, so Xander starts hanging with the school bully (whom we later find out is really a dead guy). The bully tries to use Xander to help him destroy all, but instead, Xander ends up saving the day--including Faith. In the process, though, he almost gets stabbed. It's one big Xander episode, which I personally think is long deserved. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:55:56 -0800 From: alanazar@jasper.uor.edu Subject: BUFFY: QUESTION! Has Joss been on the posting board lately? I love it when he shows up late Tuesday night! Anyone know the address for the celebrity archive??? Comments: Loved the "creepy" factor. This episode really dug into some issues... the creepiness of seeing Willow's activities as dark and maybe destructive. The dead children (so glad they were a demon). The tattoos. The parents ready to turn in their own children to be slaughtered. It was a very "It" and "Stepford" episode for me. Every 30 years a demon returns and creates mob mentality. But Willow's "hail beelzebub" speech was SO FUNNY! Go Willow! Uggh to the pop psychology mom. She's one of those people who will catch 22 you with the "denial" argument. Did anyone else gag at her "I" statements? No wonder Willow was so sensitive to them in that past ep. Xander's personality seems to be GONE. Is he suddenly realizing that he has no male friends? Was that final scene to solidify friendship between Oz and Xander? To quote the Simpsons: "This was male bonding at its best. A fire was involved." :-) Tthat is it for my comments. Except where is our other slayer???? Okay, I had a cheesy thought. For those of you who like her. Start a group called "Ye of Little Faith". Why not? There are already little willow and little buffy sights and people! What am I saying? It's probably a long-established group. Speaking of catchy names, MOO was hysterical... and check out Buffy with the 50 cent words! Girlfriend's in the know! On a totally off topic note-- the Faculty, imnsho, was pretty good. Check it out. It's old school Body Snatcher weirdness, with a pretty hot cast. And of course the director is R. Rodriguez~who's strange and "hip" style makes the movie pretty smooth. Look for the football scene! Classic. ANyhow that is all my dears. I guess I should work! Annoying. Remember, I need that celebrity posting sight. Thanks! Autumn - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:12:46 EST From: Toph179@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: QUESTION! Ialanazar@jasper.uor.edu writes: <> The address is: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~hsiao/media/tv/buffy/bronze/ According to the archives he hasn't been on since December 15 but I think he lurks and doesn't let on that he's there. I know I lurk a lot but have not had the courage to participate yet! louise - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:23:02 -0500 From: Chris Tower Subject: BUFFY: Gingerbread: Amy et al. S P O I L E R A L E R T S P O I L E R A L E R T Did anyone else find it odd that Amy was chillin' with her homeys at the beginning of "Gingerbread" as if she is "in" on the whole slayer thing? Buffy then talks openly about this... Later, those jocks backed off when Buffy showed up. Is she well known for= being one tough Mama or do people know she's the slayer? Then the ep didn't seem to play out as I thought it would. I was expecting Willow, Amy, and "Michael"? (who was the fourth in the coven) to be part of a secret evil. Like Amy had sucked Willow into something, enchanted her even. Because that spell casting scene looked A LOT like BLACK MAGIC not good WHITE MAGIC. Thoughts? EMBRACE UNCERTAINTY peace, chris (obligatory signature file quote) "Gazing in the mirror at my emaciated body, I observed a woman held up by= = her culture as the physical ideal because she was starving, = self-obssessed and powerless, a woman called beautiful because she = threatened no one except herself." --Abra Fortune Chernik - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:49:07 -0500 From: genevieve@gist.com (Genevieve Faulkner) Subject: BUFFY: Gingerbread: Amy et al. >Did anyone else find it odd that Amy was chillin' with her homeys at the >beginning of "Gingerbread" as if she is "in" on the whole slayer thing? >Buffy then talks openly about this... Actually, when Buffy and Giles were in her house and then later reversing the spells (in The Which), it was kinda hard to keep all that a secret. >Later, those jocks backed off when Buffy showed up. Is she well known for >being one tough Mama or do people know she's the slayer? In Halloween, Buffy protects Xander from Larry at the vending machines. She twists his arm and tells him to "get gone". So Larry already knew she was tough. >I was expecting Willow, Amy, and "Michael"? (who was the fourth in the >coven) to be part of a secret evil. Like Amy had sucked Willow into >something, enchanted her even. Because that spell casting scene looked A >LOT like BLACK MAGIC not good WHITE MAGIC. I thought that they were using the symbol to solve the case. I could never believe that Willow would do something harmful, and I did not want to think of Amy in a bad way either. Also, maybe they don't have a forth and that is why they can not summon more of the elements. I only know any thing about whiches from 'The Craft', so I have no idea if they even need a forth. The Charmed girls don't. I could not stop laughing though the entore last scene, starting with Cordelia slaping Giles to Oz saying "We're here to save you". It was all classic. Genevieve "Did I get him?" - -------------------------------------------------------- "Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass." -- BtVS - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:08:53 -0800 From: Sai Wong Subject: BUFFY: Gingerbread - audio issues The episode has aired so I won't add any spoiler space .... First off did any of you notice sound problems during the broadcast of this episode (particuarly at the beginning). The sound went softer ... then louder ...softer ....then louder This was quite a good episode. Nice to see Amy the Witch again (I wonder if she will make a guest appearence on the other WB show 'Charmed' ???) I think the ending of the episode where Willow was trying to turn Amy back from a rat was done in light humor. I think it was use to show that Willow hasn't quite perfected her witchcraft and is still a 'student'. I think it is assumed that Willow was able to transform Amy back into human form after several attempts. Nice to see Cordelia. Although she was not in the episode much she had the best lines. I do wish they would use her character more, but I suspect that Joss et al are just distancing her in preparation for the new Angel series. The topic of the episode was hysteria and how people can freek out under pressure and it was all neatly tied up in a witchhunt theme. One thing that gets me is how easily people in Sunnydale forget things. Ok, the demon affected the peoples memories but once he was gone there is still the debrie behind. The pile of burnt books, the MOO banners etc ... These 'clues' are left behind, wouldn't perople be curious, and try and use these clues to rebuild their memories ? I am really under the impression that Joyce is totally devoid of any human intelligence. Even with her knowlege that Buffy is the Slayer, Joyce still see's Buffy as an irresponsible kid that needs hand-holding by an adult (her in this case). Joyce respresents the "my parents don't understand me". I do hope she gets eaten one day Regarding Willow's mum. I think she was an educated working parent. Seems to me that Willows parents both work (or spend little time with their daughter) so much so that the family unit has broken down and when they do meet it is like talking to strangers. As an example, Willow's mum's comment about her hair. Sai Keeper of the Grrr Arrrg end credit mutant - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:16:46 -0600 (CST) From: Kelly White Subject: BUFFY: Joyce After seeing Gingerbread, I've came to the conclusion that Joyce should die. Or at least get what's coming to her. Kelly "God grant me the strength to accept the things I cannot change, change those I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people who irritated me." - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:30:07 EST From: fun-ee@juno.com (fun ee) Subject: BUFFY: Hansel and Gretel I see some posts here about Hansel and Gretel being reversed in their roles from the fairy tale. Actually, they are and they aren't. The way I remember the fairy tale of Hansel and Gretel, they were lured by a wicked witch who wanted to cook and eat them. They turned the tables on the witch and killed her by pushing her into the oven. The Hansel and Gretel in Gingerbread are carrying on the same pattern of killing witches, except the witches they are no longer a good little boy and girl, but a demon. Perhaps the original Hansel and Gretel weren't good in the first place. And the fairy tale was built around the demon. After all, what kind of 'good' boy and girl would push an old lady who bakes cookies into her own oven and kill her? funee (: ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:57:11 -0600 (CST) From: Jill Kirby Subject: BUFFY: Admin: Spoiler Space NO spoiler space is needed once the episode has aired. None. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Jill Jill Kirby - jtkirby@mcs.net www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/410 That stupid speech of LaCroix. If I was Nat, I'd pretend to be dead too in hopes he would finally shut up. --Debra Ann, regarding "Last Knight" - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 04:13:12 -0500 From: sah Subject: Re: BUFFY: Joyce At 12:16 PM 1/13/99 -0600, Kelly White wrote: >After seeing Gingerbread, I've came to the conclusion that Joyce should >die. Or at least get what's coming to her. A lot of the arguement about Angel revolved around the fact that he's possessed by a demon, and the demon is the one responsible for his actions. It's pretty clear to me that Joyce and the other parents were under the influence of the Hansel and Gretel demon last night, so you do have to wonder how responsible they were for their actions. What I thought was interesting about last night's episode were all the parenting issues. We have Buffy's mom, who is making a real effort to understand and be a part of her daughters life, and then you have Sheila Rosenblum, who treats her daughter like a case study. I found it interesting that the gamut of parents, the involved and the detached *both* pretty much screw it up. The message--parents in the buffyverse are damned if they do and damned if they don't. And, more importantly, it's awfully hard being the parent of a teenager. So, as always, I'm willing to cut Joyce a lot more slack than most people because at least she's trying. Unlike Willow's mother, who clearly isn't all that interested in her daughter or her life. Of the two, Willow's situation is profoundly sadder and far more screwed up than Buffy's will ever be. - --sah - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:00:21 -0500 (EST) From: Robin Carroll Subject: Re: BUFFY: Gingerbread On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Ryan Harrington wrote: > I wonder about this. Amy cast the spell on Buffy and she reversed it. I > wonder if the Buffy universe is like Bewitched (the 70's show, not BBB) > where only the caster can break the spell. I hope not cuz then Amy's SOL. > What a family. Her mom's a trophy and she's a rat. Giles and Amy (mostly Giles) reversed her mother's spells in The Witch, so I am taking that as evidence that the Bewitched rules don't apply. The problem is probably that Willow is a novice, and Buffy has even less experience with witchcraft. Giles to the rescue :) Robin rncl@uhura.cc.rochester.edu "The winter here's cold and bitter. It's chilled us to the bone. We haven't seen the sun for weeks, too long, too far from home." ~Sarah Mclachlan, "Full of Grace" - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:10:24 -0500 From: Jeff Rohaly Subject: Re: BUFFY: Tonight's episode was like "The Crucible" At 21:43 1999-01-12 EST, EBugayong@aol.com wrote: >Tonight's episode was pretty cool but it's sort of a copy of "The >Crucible." It's mainly the same. The parents think that the kids are >really witch's. I'm looking forward for next weeks episode. But it's really only a copy in the sense that the mob mentality that led to the burning of witches was used as an allegory in each case. In The Crucible, it was an allegory to what was happening in Washington with the House UnAmerican Activities Committee and its investigations into Communist sympathizers and the resulting destruction of the lives of many families including the blacklisting of a lot of Hollywood people. Here, the underlying story wasn't quite that, at least not specifically. In fact, as iocaste@aol.com pointed out, there wasn't just one underlying theme to this episode. And in a sense, the mob had the right idea. Supernatural forces are the enemy here, just not the supernatural forces they decided to take their vengeance out on. I'm wondering exactly what degree of influence the demon had. I mean, selective memories or not, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the people of Sunnydale are a bit fed up with getting the short end of the supernatural stick. The mass hysteria events, such as the one in BB&B, are forgotten or rationalized away but surely a lot of families pick up on the fact that they only need to set 3 places at the old dinner table when they used to set 4. Or as Joyce so eloquently put it, how many of them have known someone who just disappeared or got skinned (I loved that) or suffered neck ruptures. When faced with things they can't explain with a simple answer, isn't it human nature for people to try to blame something or someone for what's going on? So did the demon just create the circumstances that allowed underlying feelings to come out, that is, present two dead children who appeared to have been the victims of a ritual sacrifice, and then sit back and let human nature take its course? Or did it also sort of act like a drug and cause people to do things they otherwise would not have done? Or a little of both and in which case, where was the line drawn -- which actions would the parents have taken if there had been no demon and they really did find two dead children who were the victim of a ritual sacrifice? I don't really know the exact or simple answer. (And hey, I blame Joss for that!!). Seriously, I think this ambiguity makes the story even more interesting. I'd sure like to think that Joyce and Willow's mother were under the influence as they set their daughters ablaze but scarier things have happened in human history. Wasn't there more than a kernel of truth in Joyce's statement that all she really wanted was a normal happy daughter but instead she got a Slayer? And what about the locker searches and the confiscation and burning of "evil" books. Those things really happen, don't they? Would the students' parents have taken part in that without being egged on by a demon? Some other thoughts: 1. Isn't The Mayor a great phony politician. Whether or not he sold his soul and cavorts with demons or what have you, he gives a good "I feel your pain" speech, doesn't he. 2. I totally agree with Mz. Gwyn that Giles and Cordy work well off each other. She's got just the right personality to get under Giles' skin. At least Giles -- unlike Angel in my opinion -- has the sense of humor to fight back at her too. I'm really wondering if Angel and Cordy will have the same chemistry as Giles and Cordy or Buffy and Cordy. For the sake of the Angel series they're going to have to. 3. It was nice to see Amy again. I can't help but think that some of these minor characters are being tried out to see if the audience latches onto them. There will be room for cast additions once Buffy loses some people at the end of the year. Jeff Rohaly rohaly@iaw.com http://www.iaw.on.ca/~rohaly/tvschedule/tvmain.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:13:36 -0800 From: Sai Wong Subject: RE: BUFFY: Spoiler for Unknown Ep > SPOILERSPACE > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 9 > 10 > 11 > 12 > 13 > 14 > 15 > 16 > 17 > 18 > 19 > 20 > 21 > 22 > 23 > 24 > Anyone else kinda "raise your hand if ew" on this? I don't know, I like > Faith > fine, but I don't really want her with Xander. I'd much rather see > Xander's > first time be with Willow or Cordelia . . or even Buffy. Just not Faith. [Sai Wong (Exchange)] Didn't Xander and Cordelia "make-out" alot when they were dating ? Surely Xanders' first time was with Cordy ? Regarding the Faith thing. Wasn't it mentioned that Faith gets a little horny after she slayed a few vampires. Maybe Xander was around after some post-slaying activity ??? Sai - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 99 14:59:04 PST From: "Sapphire" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Joyce - ---------- > > > After seeing Gingerbread, I've came to the conclusion that Joyce should > die. Or at least get what's coming to her. > Long live The People for the Unethical Treatment of Joyce!!! I wondered = if I was the only one yelling, and that was *before* she was being influenced by the = big ugly. Would *you* be out walking alone at night when you know about vampires?? = She didn't even have a stake or a cross out that I could see. My daughter being the = vampire slayer or no, if I couldn't slay 'em, my butt would be at home. ::grin:: Distrac= ting Buffy like that could have gotten them both killed. I am thinking that Willow should rese= arch some amnesia spell to erase the whole slayer thing from her memory.... Sapphire: PUTJ, CoS, X-Over admin, GASPer Creeker Numero Uno, DC list admin; http://www.busprod.com/aclaybor; WPWP = #724; Keeper of Willow's momentary obsession with sore thumbs, Willow's whimper= of sadness for her dead fish, her fake frog fit in KBD, and her 'Big Boy' = grave stance from 'Anne' Keeper of Gile's Occasional Befuddled Look; VampWillow's make= - -up collection; Keeper of VampXander's wish to watch (The Wish) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:26:17 -0500 From: "jim r." Subject: BUFFY: Michael Hey everyone, I have noticed a lot of chat about who Michael was on last night's ep. Okay, the only thing that I remember him from from was the short-lived Nickelodeon (sp?) show Salute Your Shorts. I forget his name but that was definitely him. And I think he should be able to reverse the spell on Amy, he really seems to be the only really experience "witch" there as of right now. Okay, just thought some of you would like to know. Jill Keeper of Buffy's keys and goodbye note Keeper of Xander's concern for Willow - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:25:23 EST From: BuffySumr9@aol.com Subject: BUFFY: "Gingerbread" I absolutly loved this ep! Almost everything Cordelia said was funny! Her lines were great! I especially loved, "Someday your gonna wake up in a coma." LoL! How many people could actually say that? Only Cordy! And I loved Buffy: "Did I get it? Did I get it?!" Those were two of the funniest moments in BtVS history, IMHO. BTW - Next week's ep looks great! Lots 'o Luv, Ashley - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:34:07 -0500 From: "jim r." Subject: BUFFY: Faith returning Next Week Hey all, This is just a thought of mine, NOT A SPOILER. But I will put a space just in case so nobody gets mad at me. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Okay, maybe next week will be a Faith ep. Because now Faith can save Buffy! I mean if theoretically Buffy can't do anything about this "prophecy" that is going to come to pass with her fighting that demon with no power, Faith may be her only hope. Also, what is Giles gonna do about all of his books? What if the police also got his Watcher diaries and things that can NEVER be replaced! Maybe he should have listened to Jenny and scanned all his books? (Just a thought, I am pretty sure she said that in I Robot, You Jane, or something along thoselines) I was totally freaking out when I saw last night's ep. I mean all those books around Amy, Willow, and Buffy were Giles' books right? I mean where else would they have gotten them? Also, thanks for letting me ramble :) Jill Keeper of Buffy's keys and goodbye note Keeper of Xander's concern for Willow - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:36:01 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Hickerson Subject: BUFFY: Review--Gingerbread **SPOILERS!!** Warning: If seeing you want to avoid SPOILERS for the latest episode of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer, "Gingerbread" please turn back now.... In short: Good concept, shaky execution. In terms of air dates, "Gingerbread" is a huge, pivotal episode for Buffy. After being named to numerous top ten lists for the best shows of 1998 and coming off two weeks of solid repeats, the first new episode of 1999 needed to be something that would not only please the long time fans that most of us are but also one that would snag new viewers who might be tuning in to see what all the hype is about. So, "Gingerbread" has some really huge shoes to fill. Needless to say I had high hopes for it, despite the concept summary I read on-line a few weeks back. And while "Gingerbread" did fairly well in bringing up some interesting issues, as a whole it didn't much for me. Part of this is an initial predjuice against one of the authors who came up with the concept of the episode--namely one Thania St. John. If she's the person I'm thinking of, she wrote several early episodes of Lois and Clark that I left me cold and so that predjuice carried over here. My biggest overall complaint with her writing wsa that she took what were dynamic, interesting characters and made them one-dimensional in her scripts in order to advance the plotlines or get a good laugh. Her biggest sin was taking Lois from being a strong, agrresive but likeable woman and turning her into a more witch like character who was the butt of a lot of jokes. And I could easily see her doing the same thing with Buffy.... Because, let's face it, outside of Babylon Five, Buffy has some of the strongest female characters in the sci-fi genre. (I am reminded of just how strong the B5 women are since I recnetly rewatched the fourth season opener, Hour of the Wolf). And while St. John's script didn't exactly turn Buffy into a simpering idiot, it did do a grave injustice to her character. Buffy seemd totally out of character for the entire run of the story. Instead of the three-dimensioanl character she has been in, say the Becoming, Lie To Me, or most of the show for that matter, she seemd rather one note. No where is this more apparent to me than in the scene with Joyce in which she talks about if she's doing any good in Sunnydale and the final sequence killing the ugly monster of the week. First up, the scene with Joyce. While I felt this scene raised some issues that were interesting, such as has Buffy really done good in the overall picture and does she just react to the evil rather than really combatting it, the injustice done to her character was too much. It called to mind the scene from the Becoming when Buffy is forced to choose between her relationship with her mom and saving the world. That worked well for the dramatic moment it created as well as the consequences that we are still seeing played out. This one seemed like a scene they came up with to put on there and have Buffy act like a spoiled teenager about it. Of course, the greater injustice is that Buffy has to have Angel come and tell her that she makes a difference. Yes, the scene was nice, but it was completely wasted. It reminds me again of what St. John did to Lois in several of her episodes--taking her from being self-realiant to someone who NEEDED Superman to rescue her. It diminished the character a bit. And while it was nice to see Angel being a bit supportive, the whole scene didn't mesh well with what we saw in Revelations a few weeks back. Next up, the final scene with Buffy tied to the stake. OK, first of all, why didn't she rip the stake out and try to esacpe earlier. Secondly, her comments, "Did I kill him? Did I kill him?" seemd a bit contrived. It made the entire final act seem like a set-up for a bad punch-line. As for the monster, I guess I can buy the angle they're taking here. Though the idea of it being Hansel and Gretel seems obvious looking back at the title....:-) The other thing is the red herring didn't work out well enough. If the symbol on the children's hands is a harmless one used to tell fortunes as Willow professes and the epiosde later seems to confirm, then why did most of Giles books seem to corborate that the symbol was some kind of ritual evil? It seemed like the brought this up just to put suspicion on Willow and Amy (who was really under-used and wasted in the overall story!) rather than as an actual way to advance the plot. If we'd had an inkling the symbol might not be evil before Giles books were taken, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The other part of the problem is how quickly the town turns against Buffy and the other girls. I guess you can chalk it up to the evil influence of the demon, but it seems a bit odd. After all, this is Sunnydale where they accept that vampire attacks are kids on LSD. It felt almost like the parallel universe episode in a way. Like we'd fallen into the bizarro universe where Sunndydaleites care about the town and want to take it back. My other major problem with this episode was the unrealized potential. Namely in the plot-line that saw Joyce trying to integrate herself a bit more into Buffy's world. I liked the idea of Joyce coming out to see what Buffy does on patrol a great deal. But again, the execution hampered it a great deal. Part of it is that Joyce's characterization has been all over the map this year--from really witchy in Anne to supportive, overprotective Mom here. I want to see a bit more consistency to her from week to week. But, for all the parts I didn't like, there wer a few I did. I really, really enjoyed the continued fall-out from the Willow/Xander kiss a few weeks ago. Seeing Xander's obvious guilt playe dotu was really fun and the scene in which he talks about Oz's silences being filled with meaning was a real hoot. These scenes alone almost redeemed the episode for me. Overall, though, I have to admit this one was really a big hit and miss affair for me with far more misses than hit. I don't think I've been this disappointed in an episode all year, with the exception of Band Candy.... So, that about wraps it except a few small things.... --Seeing Willow's mom...jury's still out. Part of me thinks it should have been like Vera on Cheers or Maris on Frasier. More fun to hear about them, but not seem them. --I loved Willow's litany of crimes..."I'm dating a musician." That was well done. --I am glad that we are seeing some growth and consequences of Willow's search into the study of witchcraft. Overall, that worked well enough to be believable. I also like that she's not doing major spells just yet. --Amy was totally wasted here. The few scenes she was in were a totaly waste of time. It seemed they included her only because she was a witch for the witchhunt which is a disservice to an interesting character. (This is the seocnd time I've been none too pleased with the return of an old face this year, the other being Ethan in Band Candy....) --As I said before, Angel's scene while nice wasn't overly effective. I hope he's gonna do more than brood around finding his place in the world now.... Well, that's about it for now. Overall, a disappointment. My rating: 4.0 (out of 10.0) Next up: Buffy's 18th b'day.....the preview looked good! :-) "What are you going to do--levitate a pencil at them?" --Buffy. Michael Hickerson | "Just look behind your own soul mhickers@usit.net | and the person that you'll see, public.usit.net/~mhickers | just might remind you of me." welcome.to/generations | --Colin Raye welcome.to/buffyreviews | - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:42:02 EST From: Marusky@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: A new guy for Buffy? In a message dated 1/12/99 0:45:22 AM EST, WILLICA@LFC.Edu writes: << Her need for love and support does not make her any less strong. >> Exactly. People- male or female- need love and support. That's what makes us human. Same goes for Buffy and any other character that accurately reflects human nature. I think her need to have her love for Angel requited is not a weakness. Feelings give her strength (see conversation with Kendra in WML 2). The only issue is making sure these feelings don't control her. two cents and then some, Marusky :) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:54:09 -0500 From: Jeff Rohaly Subject: Re: BUFFY: Joyce At 04:13 1996-01-01 -0500, sah wrote: >A lot of the arguement about Angel revolved around the fact that he's >possessed by a demon, and the demon is the one responsible for his >actions. It's pretty clear to me that Joyce and the other parents were >under the influence of the Hansel and Gretel demon last night ... Maybe I should watch it again, but this issue wasn't as clear to me. Especially concerning the other parents. With Joyce, we know she was actually talking to the demon in its child form, but maybe it was just a really persuasive demon? I'm only being half facetious. Did it just bring out underlying feelings in Joyce and then count on her to rally the citizenry of Sunnydale and bring out their underlying feelings in the hope that things would get out of control and thus further its cause? So I guess I might agree with what you're saying but to paraphrase President Clinton, it depends on what the meaning of the words "under the influence" is. I see this situation as more analogous to what The First was trying to do to Angel in Amends rather than a strict demon-possession type of thing. In other words, using the person's own inside torment against him or her. Now, I do admit that I can't really see Joyce willing to burn Buffy at the stake without being in a mind-altered state but I think the uncertainty, especially with the other parents, is what makes things interesting. Also, maybe this is all just wishful thinking on my part. Because I think the episode loses some of its impact if we're going to rely on a demons-made-me-do-it defense for the parents. I think the episode remains more powerful if we're left with the idea that in their normal state, the citizenry of Sunnydale are just a nudge away from a vengeful mob. Jeff Rohaly rohaly@iaw.com http://www.iaw.on.ca/~rohaly/tvschedule/tvmain.html - - ------------------------------ End of buffy-digest V3 #20 ************************** To subscribe to buffy or buffy-digest, send the command subscribe buffy-digest or subscribe buffy to majordomo@xmission.com. You will need to go through a confirmation process, and the listowners have to manually approve your subscription request, so it may take some time. Back issues of this digest can be found at: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/buffy/archive/ For help, contact Jill Kirby (jtkirby@mcs.com) or sah (romana@mindspring.com)