From: owner-buffyfic@lists.xmission.com (buffyfic-digest) To: buffyfic-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffyfic-digest V2 #153 Reply-To: $SENDER Sender: owner-buffyfic@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffyfic@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffyfic-digest Thursday, April 30 1998 Volume 02 : Number 153 In this issue: Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Showing Instead of Telling, & Other Stuff Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Showing Instead of Telling, & Other Stuff Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Showing Instead of Telling, & Other Stuff BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Rachel's critique of "Bitten" BUFFYFIC: Broken Bonds (Part 6) BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: About Critiques and some help wanted. Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Rachel's critique of "Bitten" Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Showing Instead of Telling, & Other Stuff BUFFYFIC: Everton are Rubbish!! Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Rachel's critique of "Bitten" See the end of the digest for information on (un)subscribing to the buffyfic or buffyfic-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:11:31 EDT From: Blu2cool Subject: Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Showing Instead of Telling, & Other Stuff Disclaimer: These are only one humble writer's opinions. I mean no personal harm to anybody, sorry if I offend you. OK. I SO have to jump onto the proverbial bandwagon here. I, personally, thought that the first three or four people who wrote on this subject are absolutely right in their opinions. However, I would like to add that I thought this would discourage new fanfic writers from posting to the list. And that would not be a good thing. So I am writing this letter to the writers as a little encouragement. For every critique I have ever gotten there were at least 4 letters that told me the opposite thing, which was: Your story is great, it rocked, keep writing. I feel that the saying "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" fits very well in this context. From my limited knowledge of the human psyche (hey, I've only been around this world for 16 years) I know that there are two major personality differences, the optimist, and the pessimist. I'm not saying that any of you are pessimists. My analogy is that there would be two ways of looking at fanfic, looking for everything that is good in it, and looking for everything wrong with it. My advice to aspiring writers: take criticisms with a grain of salt, but never stop believing in your own works. Blu Blu2cool@AOL.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:46:06 EDT From: KylenRevik Subject: Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Showing Instead of Telling, & Other Stuff In a message dated 98-04-29 13:14:34 EDT, Blu2cool@aol.com writes: >Disclaimer: These are only one humble writer's opinions. I mean no personal >harm to anybody, sorry if I offend you. Same applying to the reply. :) >OK. I SO have to jump onto the proverbial bandwagon here. I, personally, >thought that the first three or four people who wrote on this subject are >absolutely right in their opinions. However, I would like to add that I >thought this would discourage new fanfic writers from posting to the list. Whoa! Hold on there! In what way does people trying to be helpful discourage writers from posting? It shouldn't, because everyone who's posted on this subject agreeing so far, as well as several private mails, have either said or realized that in no way, shape, or form was anyone trying to discourage new writers from trying. All I've said is that I feel people should put a little more effort into making sure things are proofed, that things make sense, etc. My first topic was just that I've noticed that a lot of people who tell instead of showing, which is one of the first things you're taught *not* to do as a serious writer. Granted, there might only be a few people on this list who really want to be "serious writers". But writing is a skill you need to learn how to do, no matter what you're going to do in life. No way am I trying to discourage anyone from posting to the list. I'm just saying that before you post, make sure your story is the best you can possibly make it. That's all anyone can ask for. Then, when people write to say things they think could help you improve your writing, remember they are only trying to help. Nobody's going to force you to write things you don't want to write, and nobody is going to force anyone else to make changes to their fics. Suggestions are just that -- SUGGESTIONS. Take 'em to heart. >And >that would not be a good thing. So I am writing this letter to the writers as >a little encouragement. For every critique I have ever gotten there were at >least 4 letters that told me the opposite thing, which was: Your story is >great, it rocked, keep writing. Two points: 1) "Critique" is not a bad word, nor does it have negative connotations. A critique is simply comments and suggestions given about a piece of work. 2) Perhaps some people's goals as fanfic writers differ from other people's goals. My goals are to better my writing and bring stories to life. I have noticed that these are also the goals of quite a few other fic writers. A comment that is all praise and ego-boosting is well and good, but one that points out a little something that you could do as a writer to strengthen your story is infinately more helpful as far as knowing what you're doing right or wrong goes. IN NO WAY am I advocating flames or nasty, unconstructive criticisms, here. I have been the victim of those before, and it was a rather upsetting experience. What I _am_ advocating is just that people take the time to offer HONEST constructive criticism instead of giving fake ego-boosts that say there's nothing wrong with a fic when it could use some improvement. >I feel that the saying "Beauty is in the eyes >of the beholder" fits very well in this context. To a point, yes. Views of characters differ, and so will the way different authors portray them. But saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and using it as a way to shield oneself from any and all criticism is, well, pointless. A writer might as well put "Ego-boosting only" under the "feedback" slot at the heads of a lot of the fics posted here. As far as professional authors go, Anne Rice and I *think* Tom Clancy both have the clout not to have editors going through their work. I am a huge, huge Rice fan, but I've been told by people who edit as a living that it's incredibly obvious that she doesn't have anyone review her work before it's published, as the finished stuff is chock full of errors. It's important to remember that no piece of writing is ever truly finished, and there's always something you can do to strengthen it. > From my limited knowledge of >the human psyche (hey, I've only been around this world for 16 years) I know >that there are two major personality differences, the optimist, and the >pessimist. I'm not saying that any of you are pessimists. My analogy is that >there would be two ways of looking at fanfic, looking for everything that is >good in it, and looking for everything wrong with it. Not at all. I don't think there's a single person on this list whose work I've said *only* something negative about. Every time I write someone a critique, I do my best to find and tell them everything good about it I can, because that's how they'll know what it is they're doing right. But I'm not going to *not* mention something bad about something for the sole purpose of not bruising somebody's fragile ego. I've been writing since I was in seventh grade, and I know pretty well how hard it can be to take criticism sometimes. But so long as a writer remembers that people aren't going to go _making things up_ about a fic solely to hurt them, and every word written about a fic is only there because its writer thought the author of the fic would benefit from it, then I don't see why there should be any problem with authors getting honest critiques instead of back-pats only. >My advice to aspiring >writers: take criticisms with a grain of salt, but never stop believing in >your own works. So long as taking criticism with a grain of salt doesn't mean saying, "it's my sacred prose and only over my dead body will anybody make me change it", then yes, I agree with you. But it's also important to be objecting (yes, I know how hard _that_ is) and take a step back from the work you've just finished and say, "Now that I've finished this, and done it best I can, here's something somebody says might make it even better. Does it make sense and would it help the story for me to follow this criticism, and if not, then why is it better my way?" If you can't come up with reasons, ask a few other people what they think. Lord. I'm seriously running at the mouth (fingers?) today. Again, I hope nobody is taking offense at any of this, because none of it is meant offensively. Rachel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:56:27 EDT From: KylenRevik Subject: Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Showing Instead of Telling, & Other Stuff In a message dated 98-04-29 13:52:03 EDT, KylenRevik@aol.com writes: >But it's also important to be objecting (yes, I know >how hard _that_ is) Ack! Typo! Objective. Sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:31:12 -0400 From: ingrid29@juno.com (Ingrid E Stanton) Subject: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Rachel's critique of "Bitten" Rachel- No, I don't mind at all. When someone critiques one of my pieces, I must admit, I don't want to be *bashed,* exactly, but you're right. I don't want layers of undeserved sappy sweetness! If it's good, then I love to hear about it, but if it wasn't, one shouldn't have to lie. As for "Bitten," that was definitely a spur-of-the-moment story. I wrote and sent it out in all of fifteen minutes (However I understand that this does not excuse me). Anyway, things just came to me, and I found myself patting myself on the back for things I hadn't consciously intended while writing. I read the "3rd grade boyfriend" paragraph, and the subtleness of it all blew me away (being blown away by your own writing is fun!)! I think thoughts were flowing directly from the ep into the story. That's when I love to write, b/c it's the most true to the show. I love inspiration! Yes, I did mean "Buffy and the gang." I actually debated putting that in for all of the 2 seconds I spent editing, but alas, it sounded cumbersome at the time! Upon reflection, I would have changed it. The "changing" thing was left ambiguous intentionally (That grammar sucked. Pardon me-no sleep). Cordelia isn't sure how she's changing, or what she's changing into, and I wanted the reader to get into Cordelia's head while at the same time being sort of omniscient, and having some outside knowledge from the show (Damn, there I go again. Somebody has to shoot me and put me out of my misery!). Like dramatic irony, sans the irony. (There! Now I've made a complete fool of myself!) Pardon the sub text. After getting a migraine headache, falling asleep in physics earlier today, and being hit in the head with a tuning fork by a girl who *claims* to be my friend I'm not thinking particularly clearly. Goodnight all, and thanks, Rachel for the honest commentary. Just let me know ahead of time next time. I tend to hyper ventilate. - -Ingrid _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:43:19 -0400 From: uzenet@videotron.ca Subject: BUFFYFIC: Broken Bonds (Part 6) Title: Broken Bonds (Part 6) Author: Northlight e-mail: uzenet@videotron.ca Note: Thanks to those who helped. Summary: Giles dissapears and bad things start to happen. Disclaimer: They aren't mine. Willow shuddered delicately beneath the undeniably unfriendly gaze of Buffy's new Watcher. He stared at her with narrowed eyes as she seated herself at her computer terminal in the library. "This is not acceptable," Tyler stated flatly. Willow nearly sighed in relief as that unfriendly gaze shifted from her to the stunned Slayer. "What do you mean by that!" Buffy exclaimed, her face flushing in anger. To Willow, it looked like Buffy was about ready to stake the man. Watcher or not. Tyler nearly snarled a response. "The Watcher and the Slayer are sacred duties. They are not something to be shared with mere high school students! I cannot believe how irresponsible Rupert was--" "You shut up now!" Buffy hissed. "Willow has helped me immensely in my duties as the Slayer. What right do you have to judge her worth to me?! Besides, this is none of your concern. Giles will be back soon and your opinions won't matter here at all!" "That may be, my dear. But until Rupert does return, you will do what I say. And I say that this girl," he gestured dismissively towards the wide eyed Willow, "is not to be allowed any part in your duties." "Alright! I've had it with you!" Buffy's voice was rapidly rising, and her fists were clenched tightly. 'I've got to stop this!' Willow thought desperately as Buffy advanced towards Tyler threateningly. "Buffy, wait!" she gasped. Buffy's deliberate advance towards Tyler stopped at Willow's protest. Her gaze rested on her friend curiously, requesting an explanation. "It's alright, Buffy," Willow told her softly, avoiding Tyler's hard eyed stare. "You're right, Giles will be back. Until then, I won't interfere with Tyler's wishes." Tyler looked pleased at her words. Buffy wasn't about to give in so easily. Willow and Xander were an important part of her life. They understood her where few others could. She wasn't about to give them up for this man who had already taken Giles away from her. "Forget it, Willow. Tyler has no say in this. You're staying!" Tyler began to protest, but Buffy cut him off. "You can just shut up, Tyler. If you have a problem with Willow being here, I can leave with her. I can do without a Watcher for as long as it takes Giles to return." Her tone clearly stated that she would do exactly what she had threatened. The glowering man took in a deep breath. "Fine, have your way, Buffy." His voice was emotionless again. If the girls hadn't been there, they would have been hard pressed to believe that he had been enraged only moments before. "What?" Buffy gaped at him. 'He gave in? But he seemed so very determined...' He saw her confusion. "I'm sorry that I was so impatient, Buffy. It is just that being the Slayer is a dangerous position. I wouldn't want anyone who was not equipped to deal with the particular dangers associated with being a Slayer to be harmed." 'Why do I not believe that?' She didn't express any of her disbelief but rather nodded. 'If I hadn't distrusted him before, I definitely would have by now.' "Come on Willow. Let's get out of here." Willow rose from her seat, her legs unsteady. Purposely avoiding any glimpse of Tyler, she eagerly followed Buffy out of the library. 'Funny, the library's never seemed so very constricting before...' End Part 6 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 00:53:17 From: tabbylink@patrol.i-way.co.uk Subject: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: About Critiques and some help wanted. Certainly anything by Ingrid makes a good choice, this is the kind of solo writing I would so like to aspire to. :) I would also so like to read this story. My server is causing me so many problems I am seriously considering the digest version for revenge. I'd like to see it try to lose mail sent in *that* format . But you guys are very right about one thing in particular. The more readers to check out your errors the better. Leslie has already promised to check me over (I should start producing this month!), and if anyone else would be kind enough to I would welcome it. I've never done fanfic, in other words I've never tried to write about characters that are human before , so I'm nervous. Though I will say that having read what you've all said and never having written for the list before, knowing how much you all care about a writer's work has encouraged me. I feel I can trust that if anyone sends me comments it's going to be fair. Just to give you an idea of what I'm doing, I'm writing about a time before Oz and Willow got together. In fact, over here in England they haven't yet. :) This is cos I wanted my character and Willow to get close. Kinda with the idea of a sequel if this works out. My character is neither vampire nor human and is searching for the legendary Hellmouth to get back to where he belongs. If anyone has *any* idea where the Hellmouth is meant to be I would be very grateful for this information. This kinda almost fits in with the sort of writing I'm doing now, though it *isn't* a crossover. (I'm just not terribly original ). My character has been created to fit no where other than the Buffyverse. The setting is Earth and it is *not* controversial. (That's just in case anyone's heard of me ). This story also has a strong basis in mythology, although it also contains vampires and slayerage and the usual Buffy gang. Knowing this, anyone who wants to help will be given a very big welcome. :) Betzi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:20:17 EDT From: KylenRevik Subject: Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Rachel's critique of "Bitten" >No, I don't mind at all. When someone critiques one of my pieces, I must >admit, I don't want to be *bashed,* exactly, but you're right. I don't >want layers of undeserved sappy sweetness! If it's good, then I love to >hear about it, but if it wasn't, one shouldn't have to lie. ::nods:: Glad you didn't mind, and I hope it helped. I really don't think I've ever *bashed* somebody, because I've had that happen and it SUCKS (and I ain't talkin' _blood_ here) and made me seriously wary of posting *anything* to the list it happened on. >As for "Bitten," that was definitely a spur-of-the-moment story. I wrote >and sent it out in all of fifteen minutes (However I understand that this >does not excuse me). Actually, here's a point I'd like to make: It's not so much the amount of time spent on a story as it is the complete quality of a piece. "Bitten" was excellent work. Whether you spend a year editing or five minutes doesn't matter so much as that the final piece is the best you can make it. Sometimes, it's very possible that something comes out perfect on the first try-- but sometimes they don't. I know I've just spent the day getting out a rough copy of the last few chapters of a Buffy fic, and the thing is, I *know* they're not as good as they could be, and I know I have to work on them for a few days now-- but I've got the ideas down. Which is why it's a *rough* draft. Sometimes you have ten of 'em, and sometimes you might only have one draft total. It all depends on the story. >Anyway, things just came to me, and I found myself >patting myself on the back for things I hadn't consciously intended while >writing. ::grins:: Don't you _love_ when that happens? The characters just up and run off with the story and you're left wondering what exactly's been happening, but sitting there going, "_Damn_, that was good." >I read the "3rd grade boyfriend" paragraph, and the subtleness >of it all blew me away (being blown away by your own writing is fun!)! Definately. ::grin:: And it fit really well w/her character and all. >I >think thoughts were flowing directly from the ep into the story. That's >when I love to write, b/c it's the most true to the show. I love >inspiration! ::giggles:: Abso-freakin'-lutely. >Yes, I did mean "Buffy and the gang." I actually debated putting that in >for all of the 2 seconds I spent editing, but alas, it sounded cumbersome >at the time! Upon reflection, I would have changed it. ::nods:: >The "changing" thing was left ambiguous intentionally (That grammar >sucked. Pardon me-no sleep). Cordelia isn't sure how she's changing, or >what she's changing into, and I wanted the reader to get into Cordelia's >head while at the same time being sort of omniscient, and having some >outside knowledge from the show (Damn, there I go again. Somebody has to >shoot me and put me out of my misery!). Like dramatic irony, sans the >irony. (There! Now I've made a complete fool of myself!) LOL, not at all. :) That isn't what I meant, though, I don't think. The line in the story was something like "she didn't know what she was changing", and my suggestion was that you just say "what she was changing into", because originally the "into" isn't in the story and I know that sometimes I'll get writing and just _skip_ a word, then somebody finds it later and I'm like "ACK! Why isn't that IN there, I was THINKING that!" (God. Or I typo and say "His pale brushed the grass" instead of "His palm brushed the grass. ::shakes her head:: Gads.) >Pardon the sub text. After getting a migraine headache, falling asleep >in physics earlier today, and being hit in the head with a tuning fork by >a girl who *claims* to be my friend I'm not thinking particularly >clearly. Well, that makes... ::slowly tallies up her personalities:: Oh, a couple bazillion of us. >Goodnight all, and thanks, Rachel for the honest commentary. :) I was home sick today with tons of time on my hand-- thank YOU for providing such a great story to critique, and read, and rave about all day long. ::grin:: >Just let me know ahead of time next time. I tend to hyper ventilate. ::grin:: Aye-aye, mate. R ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:39:47 EDT From: Blu2cool Subject: Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Showing Instead of Telling, & Other Stuff In a message dated 4/29/98, KylenRevik writes: > Yes, I was more-than-slightly confused ::moans:: I AM so sorry! I have a legit excuse, though...I was babysitting the brats from the Hellmouth when I wrote that, so I think it got kinda messed up (I mighta been thinking some violent thoughts at the moment ::gives innocent grin::). I honestly and totally agree with: > (Hint, hint, hint! Reader-people! Critiques are fun and we LIKE them!!!!!!!) And I didn't mean to be such a bitca. Hope ya'll can forget my little boo boo... Blu Blu2cool@AOL.com (check my new sig line, I just put it on...) "You're just a big bucket of funny, Will." -Xander, IOHEFY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:42:06 +0100 From: Mark Jones Subject: BUFFYFIC: Everton are Rubbish!! Everton are rubbish! Everton are rubbish! Everton are rubbish! Everton are rubbish! Everton are rubbish! Everton are rubbish! Everton are rubbish! Everton are rubbish! That's all. This is from Si, if your'e wondering. AL GO TO THE CLOSE TONIGHT!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 98 02:10:07 From: tabbylink@patrol.i-way.co.uk Subject: Re: BUFFYFIC: DISCUSS: Rachel's critique of "Bitten" - --- On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:20:17 EDT KylenRevik wrote: >Actually, here's a point I'd like to make: It's not so much the amount of time >spent on a story as it is the complete quality of a piece. "Bitten" was >excellent work. Whether you spend a year editing or five minutes doesn't >matter so much as that the final piece is the best you can make it. Sometimes, >it's very possible that something comes out perfect on the first try-- but >sometimes they don't. I know I've just spent the day getting out a rough copy >of the last few chapters of a Buffy fic, and the thing is, I *know* they're >not as good as they could be, and I know I have to work on them for a few days >now-- but I've got the ideas down. Which is why it's a *rough* draft. >Sometimes you have ten of 'em, and sometimes you might only have one draft >total. It all depends on the story. I know this so well! There've been times when I've worked for *days* on a story trying to get it right and, I admit, trying to be just a little impressive. But the ones that other people have said are the absolute best are the ones that I've put the least work into. Like the time I rushed off a Christmas story for an APA I was in. I barely had the time to check it, yet it's one of the stories they remember me for and not the ones I literally sweat blood trying to improve. I guess it all depends on how well it flows; if it does it's good, if it don't then sometimes it just ain't gonna. Though don't anyone let that put you off. There's been times when I've worked hard on a story and it's come good too. Betzi ------------------------------ End of buffyfic-digest V2 #153 ****************************** To subscribe to buffyfic or buffyfic-digest, send the command subscribe buffyfic-digest or subscribe buffy to majordomo@xmission.com. You will need to go through a confirmation process, and the listowners have to manually approve your subscription request, so it may take some time. To unsubscribe, send email to majordomo@xmission.com with unsubscribe buffyfic-digest or unsubscribe buffyfic in the body. Back issues of this digest can be found at: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/buffyfic/archive/ Dalton Spence has also provided an index of the buffyfic archive at: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/BUFFYFIC.HTM For help, contact Jill Kirby (jtkirby@mcs.com) or sah (romana@mindspring.com)