From: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com (canslim-digest) To: canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: canslim-digest V2 #1005 Reply-To: canslim Sender: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-No-Archive: yes canslim-digest Monday, September 18 2000 Volume 02 : Number 1005 In this issue: Re: [CANSLIM] test [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts [CANSLIM] Recent Gainers Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts [CANSLIM] Chart Update For 9/18 [CANSLIM] M Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:46:55 EDT From: "can slim" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] test test successful. >From: Dan Cash <> >Reply-To: canslim@lists.xmission.com >To: "realtraders@realtraders.com" >Subject: [CANSLIM] test >Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 09:20:14 -0700 > > > > >- > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:23:55 EDT From: JANSI1AUG1@aol.com Subject: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts In a message dated 09/17/2000 12:22:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: << A few things that he reminded us of: - -He doesn't use stop loss orders. - Most important for big lot size traders due to the SEC filing red flag. - -Doesn't use trailing stops. >> Bill: I believe Bill reconstructed the seminar. Therefore, this question is directed at him: Are you sure WON said that trailing stops (not to mention stop-losses) is verboten using his CANSLIM system? It would seem that not using trailing stops would mean that eventually a winner could become a loser. This seems totally contradictory to WON's injunction never to let a profit turn into a loss. Also, not using stop-losses seems to me to be a wonderful way for someone who buys a failed-breakout to keep that stock below the point where the stock falls more than 8% under the purchase price. Jans - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:35:41 -0500 From: Kent Norman Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts I have been waiting for someone else to ask, but my curiosity is eating me up. What is meant by "the SEC filing red flag" ? Thanks Kent JANSI1AUG1@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 09/17/2000 12:22:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: > > << A few things that he reminded us of: > - -He doesn't use stop loss orders. - Most important for big lot size traders > due to the SEC filing red flag. > - -Doesn't use trailing stops. >> > > Bill: > > I believe Bill reconstructed the seminar. Therefore, this question is > directed at him: Are you sure WON said that trailing stops (not to mention > stop-losses) is verboten using his CANSLIM system? It would seem that not > using trailing stops would mean that eventually a winner could become a > loser. This seems totally contradictory to WON's injunction never to let a > profit turn into a loss. > > Also, not using stop-losses seems to me to be a wonderful way for > someone who buys a failed-breakout to keep that stock below the point where > the stock falls more than 8% under the purchase price. > > > Jans > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:05:12 -0400 From: Al French Subject: [CANSLIM] Recent Gainers WON recommends in HTMMIS stocks that show abnormal strength in weak overall markets. Here are a few that have gained during the retracement period of 9/1/00 to 9/15/00. All have good liquidity and are priced over $15. Many are CANSLIM. Al French LNOP 77% gain EXLN 73% IMGN 52% IMPH 39% EVRC 39% PDLI 39% VITL 38% FCEL 37% SPY 37% AXYS 37% ENCR 35% TUTR 32% AREM 32% KP 36% AMRI 32% BELM 31% XTND 30% SYNM 29% EXCA 29% ALAB 27% MCXC 27% BCF 26% UTI 25% CCRT 25% STR 24% XTO 24% CDN 24% BVF 23% GMRK 23% APWR 23% EIX 22% FNM 22% CLTR 22% THQI 22% WSM 22% BIOI 21% DYN 21% PE 21% TTI 21% DFXI 21% ETR 21% IDA 21% NAT 21% AMSC 21% OSIP 20% KEY 20% ANN 20% BBBY 19% LTD 19% NEOL 19% DURA 19% WDHD 17% HMA 17% BCGI 17% CANI 17% ACTM 16% BKLY 16% OPMR 16% PKE 15% OLOG 15% LENS 15% HIBB 14% ADVP 13% - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:54:32 -0700 From: "Bill Triffet" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts That refereed to O'neals large trade sizes. If he used stop-loss orders, other traders could take advantage of it. He also mentioned something about a filing that is made if he uses them. Perhaps Tom or one of the other industry pros here could clarify this for us. - -Bill back to lurk mode. (g) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Kent Norman To: Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts > I have been waiting for someone else to ask, but my curiosity is eating > me up. What is meant by "the SEC filing red flag" ? > > Thanks > Kent > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:48:02 -0700 From: "Bill Triffet" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts Jans, Let me clarify myself. I did not record the session so yes I have reconstructed the seminar some what. Now. WON said he does NOT use trailing stops as they could put you out prematurely, given the normal fluctuations of the market. That said, he went on to say let the selling rules take you out of a stock. Remember, there are 36 of them starting on page 103 of HTMMIS. I'm sure one could find many reasons to sell a stock just using the rules. Just a couple: #13 - consider selling if the stocks price breaks badly for several days and does not rally, #20 - is also open to examination, sell after a stock declines 8% or so from its peak. (in some cases 12-15%). Please pickup " How to Make Money In Stocks" if you don't have it already. As far a stop-losses he said NO also. He also added that when one such as himself or his holding company places a stop-loss for a large trades, it opens them up for attack by other traders. I do not know exactly how this works but he reminded us that the market place is a battlefield. (g) I was using stop loss orders myself from time to time. In the future, I will try to get a better understanding of all the selling rules. I think it's the better way to go. BTW, in the last year, I have never let a stock slip more than 8% using market orders. I think proper selection from a proper breakout is a better defense. And yes, the few trades I've done since March have all come back to their pivots. Oh well. that is the market we are in. - -Bill > I believe Bill reconstructed the seminar. Therefore, this question is > directed at him: Are you sure WON said that trailing stops (not to mention > stop-losses) is verboten using his CANSLIM system? It would seem that not > using trailing stops would mean that eventually a winner could become a > loser. This seems totally contradictory to WON's injunction never to let a > profit turn into a loss. > > Also, not using stop-losses seems to me to be a wonderful way for > someone who buys a failed-breakout to keep that stock below the point where > the stock falls more than 8% under the purchase price. > > > Jans > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:59:52 -0700 From: "Bill Triffet" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts < snip> stop-losses is verboten using ...his CANSLIM system? I should also add that WON said several times," It is NOT my system... It is the way the market works". Profound thought eh? (g) - -Bill - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 05:36:14 -0400 From: "Tom Worley" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts Not having been at the seminar, it's hard to explain the reference, but I'll try. I know of no "SEC filing" requirement involved with placing a stop loss order, regardless of size of the order. A company "insider" is required to file with the SEC when they intend to sell company stock, regardless of quantity. This filing is supposed to be before the fact, however the SEC is so negligent that it often occurs afterwards. Even when done on time, by the time the filing is available at the SEC site, the stock has usually already been sold. The only "volume related" issue I know of is that a holder of over 5% of the issue of a company must file with the SEC when they sell a quantity sufficient to take them below 5%. This filing is required after the sale takes place. There are also filing requirements for specific %age ownership when you are buying, 5% and 15% being two levels, and I think there is also a notification requirement for 1% ownership. This applies to all share holders, regardless of "insider" or non-insider status. When you place a (sell) stop loss order on a NYSE or AMEX listed stock, that order is ultimately placed on the books of the floor specialist. Thus one person will be aware of all such orders, and can potentially manipulate the market so those orders are triggered (I have seen this happen before, when we placed about 20 or so orders on the same stock totaling over 30K shares). In less than a minute, the stock suddenly traded down nearly two points triggering and executing all the orders. In less than a minute later, it was again trading right where it had been. When you place a (sell) stop loss order on a NASDAQ stock, that order is held either by the firm holding your account, or by another firm that is a market maker. Thus, in theory, no one person is aware of all existing stop loss orders (unless the market makers talk to each other when they see a lot of stop loss orders, and I can't rule that out, nor would it likely be illegal). Regardless of where the stock is listed, users of stop loss orders tend to use practices that are pretty visible. Either they select a whole dollar limit (eg 29 rather than 29.125 or 28.875) or they tend to group up at the same price by looking at similar charts (eg bottom of the base at 43.75 so many stop loss orders placed at 43.625). This also makes it easy for the floor specialist/market maker to shake loose some stock when needed. I would not expect WON and associates to ever use any kind of limit order (buy, sell, stop) as they not only have the time (it's their job, after all) to watch the market but also would have both the computer systems to give them continuous live quotes, and also to set off audible/visual limit minders. As a stockbroker, I never used any limits unless so directed by a client, and usually recommended against the practice. Far better to be able to make a human decision at the time and in light of what the market was doing at that moment. When you have a day job, and cannot watch your portfolio closely, limit buy/sell and stop buy/sell orders tend to make more sense to the individual investor. When you are in the securities industry, living and breathing stocks for 6.5 hours or more a day, you tend to lose the perspective of someone with a day job outside the industry. Tom Worley stkguru@netside.net ICQ # 5568838 - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Triffet To: Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 11:54 PM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts That refereed to O'neals large trade sizes. If he used stop-loss orders, other traders could take advantage of it. He also mentioned something about a filing that is made if he uses them. Perhaps Tom or one of the other industry pros here could clarify this for us. - -Bill back to lurk mode. (g) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Kent Norman To: Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts > I have been waiting for someone else to ask, but my curiosity is eating > me up. What is meant by "the SEC filing red flag" ? > > Thanks > Kent > - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:24:08 -0500 From: Kent Norman Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts Thanks Tom This is very useful information. Kent Norman - ------ Tom Worley wrote: > > Not having been at the seminar, it's hard to explain the > reference, but I'll try. > > I know of no "SEC filing" requirement involved with placing a > stop loss order, regardless of size of the order. > > A company "insider" is required to file with the SEC when they > intend to sell company stock, regardless of quantity. This filing > is supposed to be before the fact, however the SEC is so > negligent that it often occurs afterwards. Even when done on > time, by the time the filing is available at the SEC site, the > stock has usually already been sold. > > The only "volume related" issue I know of is that a holder of > over 5% of the issue of a company must file with the SEC when > they sell a quantity sufficient to take them below 5%. This > filing is required after the sale takes place. There are also > filing requirements for specific %age ownership when you are > buying, 5% and 15% being two levels, and I think there is also a > notification requirement for 1% ownership. This applies to all > share holders, regardless of "insider" or non-insider status. > > When you place a (sell) stop loss order on a NYSE or AMEX listed > stock, that order is ultimately placed on the books of the floor > specialist. Thus one person will be aware of all such orders, and > can potentially manipulate the market so those orders are > triggered (I have seen this happen before, when we placed about > 20 or so orders on the same stock totaling over 30K shares). In > less than a minute, the stock suddenly traded down nearly two > points triggering and executing all the orders. In less than a > minute later, it was again trading right where it had been. > > When you place a (sell) stop loss order on a NASDAQ stock, that > order is held either by the firm holding your account, or by > another firm that is a market maker. Thus, in theory, no one > person is aware of all existing stop loss orders (unless the > market makers talk to each other when they see a lot of stop loss > orders, and I can't rule that out, nor would it likely be > illegal). > > Regardless of where the stock is listed, users of stop loss > orders tend to use practices that are pretty visible. Either they > select a whole dollar limit (eg 29 rather than 29.125 or 28.875) > or they tend to group up at the same price by looking at similar > charts (eg bottom of the base at 43.75 so many stop loss orders > placed at 43.625). This also makes it easy for the floor > specialist/market maker to shake loose some stock when needed. > > I would not expect WON and associates to ever use any kind of > limit order (buy, sell, stop) as they not only have the time > (it's their job, after all) to watch the market but also would > have both the computer systems to give them continuous live > quotes, and also to set off audible/visual limit minders. As a > stockbroker, I never used any limits unless so directed by a > client, and usually recommended against the practice. Far better > to be able to make a human decision at the time and in light of > what the market was doing at that moment. > > When you have a day job, and cannot watch your portfolio closely, > limit buy/sell and stop buy/sell orders tend to make more sense > to the individual investor. When you are in the securities > industry, living and breathing stocks for 6.5 hours or more a > day, you tend to lose the perspective of someone with a day job > outside the industry. > > Tom Worley > stkguru@netside.net > ICQ # 5568838 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Triffet > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 11:54 PM > Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts > > That refereed to O'neals large trade sizes. If he used stop-loss > orders, > other traders could take advantage of it. He also mentioned > something about > a filing that is made if he uses them. > > Perhaps Tom or one of the other industry pros here could clarify > this for > us. > > -Bill > > back to lurk mode. (g) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kent Norman > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 2:35 PM > Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts > > > I have been waiting for someone else to ask, but my curiosity > is eating > > me up. What is meant by "the SEC filing red flag" ? > > > > Thanks > > Kent > > > > - > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:51:16 -0700 (PDT) From: charles maier Subject: [CANSLIM] Chart Update For 9/18 Best charts I found looking at old 52week high lists and canslim lists over the weekend. I try to list only those that have yet to break out and have nice bases. Very best are at the top: Symbol %9/16 Price Up 9/18 vol% up 9/16 close pivot CPN 6 634 99.75 101 5/8 SEBL 4.5 614 99 101 7/8 ENE 3.2 94 89.44 90 7/8 PIR 4.0 146 13 1/4 12.94 MDCC 4.4 370 94.5 (90) (4% extended) but great volume Peronsal favorite is CSC 2.5 57 79.88 80 CSC in running for $9.6 billion contract to be announced Tues or Wed this week. Great two month base besides. Should pop like a cork if they get award. (I am long CSC) Other really good charts Price Up 9/16 WFT HP AES CCN IDTI PEB DLTR FISV SCTU RDN PDS Price down 9/16 AZA BARR ACRT PHM PWER INFA LTR MER MLT MMC INFS MDY SWY ULTE TWTR BARZ BKI BSYS CDX DSL EE EGN ENGL GBCB BDW JKHY AXF ACDO SUPX PMG OMI PMI POS RJF MENS - - ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2000 07:48:10 -0700 From: "Tim Fisher" Subject: [CANSLIM] M Excellent article on the NASDAQ chart: http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/20000918/news/current/kilgore.htx Tim Fisher, 1995 President, Pacific Fishery Biologists Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site PFB Information mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com WWW http://OreRockOn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:36:31 -0700 From: "Bill Triffet" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts Tom, Thanks for the clarification. Your a wealth of knowelage. I can see now where WON would not need to use stops. Perhaps then for those that are not able to monitor their holdings, stops are a good thing. - -Bill - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Worley" To: Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 2:36 AM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts > Not having been at the seminar, it's hard to explain the > reference, but I'll try. > > I know of no "SEC filing" requirement involved with placing a > stop loss order, regardless of size of the order. > > A company "insider" is required to file with the SEC when they > intend to sell company stock, regardless of quantity. This filing > is supposed to be before the fact, however the SEC is so > negligent that it often occurs afterwards. Even when done on > time, by the time the filing is available at the SEC site, the > stock has usually already been sold. > > The only "volume related" issue I know of is that a holder of > over 5% of the issue of a company must file with the SEC when > they sell a quantity sufficient to take them below 5%. This > filing is required after the sale takes place. There are also > filing requirements for specific %age ownership when you are > buying, 5% and 15% being two levels, and I think there is also a > notification requirement for 1% ownership. This applies to all > share holders, regardless of "insider" or non-insider status. > > When you place a (sell) stop loss order on a NYSE or AMEX listed > stock, that order is ultimately placed on the books of the floor > specialist. Thus one person will be aware of all such orders, and > can potentially manipulate the market so those orders are > triggered (I have seen this happen before, when we placed about > 20 or so orders on the same stock totaling over 30K shares). In > less than a minute, the stock suddenly traded down nearly two > points triggering and executing all the orders. In less than a > minute later, it was again trading right where it had been. > > When you place a (sell) stop loss order on a NASDAQ stock, that > order is held either by the firm holding your account, or by > another firm that is a market maker. Thus, in theory, no one > person is aware of all existing stop loss orders (unless the > market makers talk to each other when they see a lot of stop loss > orders, and I can't rule that out, nor would it likely be > illegal). > > Regardless of where the stock is listed, users of stop loss > orders tend to use practices that are pretty visible. Either they > select a whole dollar limit (eg 29 rather than 29.125 or 28.875) > or they tend to group up at the same price by looking at similar > charts (eg bottom of the base at 43.75 so many stop loss orders > placed at 43.625). This also makes it easy for the floor > specialist/market maker to shake loose some stock when needed. > > I would not expect WON and associates to ever use any kind of > limit order (buy, sell, stop) as they not only have the time > (it's their job, after all) to watch the market but also would > have both the computer systems to give them continuous live > quotes, and also to set off audible/visual limit minders. As a > stockbroker, I never used any limits unless so directed by a > client, and usually recommended against the practice. Far better > to be able to make a human decision at the time and in light of > what the market was doing at that moment. > > When you have a day job, and cannot watch your portfolio closely, > limit buy/sell and stop buy/sell orders tend to make more sense > to the individual investor. When you are in the securities > industry, living and breathing stocks for 6.5 hours or more a > day, you tend to lose the perspective of someone with a day job > outside the industry. > > Tom Worley > stkguru@netside.net > ICQ # 5568838 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Triffet > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 11:54 PM > Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts > > > That refereed to O'neals large trade sizes. If he used stop-loss > orders, > other traders could take advantage of it. He also mentioned > something about > a filing that is made if he uses them. > > Perhaps Tom or one of the other industry pros here could clarify > this for > us. > > -Bill > > back to lurk mode. (g) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Kent Norman > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 2:35 PM > Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Re. Oneal Seminar Thoughts > > > > I have been waiting for someone else to ask, but my curiosity > is eating > > me up. What is meant by "the SEC filing red flag" ? > > > > Thanks > > Kent > > > > > > - > > > > - > > - - ------------------------------ End of canslim-digest V2 #1005 ****************************** To unsubscribe to canslim-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe canslim-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.