From: owner-exotica-digest@lists.xmission.com (exotica-digest) To: exotica-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: exotica-digest V2 #926 Reply-To: exotica-digest Sender: owner-exotica-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-exotica-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes exotica-digest Friday, March 16 2001 Volume 02 : Number 926 In This Digest: RE: (exotica) KPM - list RE: (exotica) KPM - list Re: (exotica) nancy and lee again again Re: (exotica) Sampling / Originals Re: (exotica) fellini again - Intervista Re: (exotica) Film recommendation RE: (exotica) KPM - list (exotica) [obits] assorted links (exotica) Dave Vorhaus (exotica) KPM ambisonic recordings (exotica) Blunts, bitches, and Herb Alpert RE: (exotica) Dave Vorhaus Re: (exotica) Mary Mayo RE: (exotica) Mary Mayo RE: (exotica) Mary Mayo RE: (exotica) Film recommendation Re: (exotica) Film recommendation (exotica) Re: sampling debate Re: (exotica) Dave Vorhaus Re: (exotica)sampling debate Re: (exotica)sampling debate Re: (exotica) (Exotica) Brother Theodore Re: Re: (exotica) (Exotica) Brother Theodore RE: (exotica) Blunts, bitches, and Herb Alpert Re: (exotica) Blunts, bitches, and Herb Alpert (exotica) More slicing and dicing Re: (exotica) Sampling / Originals (exotica) I'm finished (exotica) Nancy and..... Frank (exotica) Uh Oh Re: RE: (exotica) Re: Re: finer with age? Re: (exotica) More slicing and dicing RE: (exotica) Blunts, bitches, and Herb Alpert Re: (exotica) Nancy and..... Frank (exotica) [obits] Sir Lancelot, Ann Sothern ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:52:33 +0100 From: "Marco \"Kallie\" Kalnenek" Subject: RE: (exotica) KPM - list This is my "amateur KPM discograpgy". Hardly comprehensive, but better than nothing... KPM 1028 lp 1968 Various Miniature moods KPM 1085 lp 1971 Merrick Farran,W./E. Vetter Electronic music KPM 1092 lp 1971 Scott,Johnny Todays achievements/Topical events KPM 1127 lp 1973 Various Happy rainbows KPM 1243 lp 1980 Vorhaus,Dave The Vorhaus sound experiments KPM 1245 lp 198? Various Archive series vol.1:light atmosphere KPM 1246 lp 198? Various Archive series vol.2:drama KPM 1297 lp 198? Various Archive series vol.3:light hearts KPM 1298 lp 1983 Various Archive series vol.4:newsreels Marco # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:11:32 -0000 From: Charles Moseley Subject: RE: (exotica) KPM - list Does anyone know where I can find a definitive (or a close to) list of the very collectable KPM releases from the late 60s/early 70s? De Wolfe, Amphonic & Telemusic would also be good. Good luck! You're going to find this very very very difficult. For instance I know that certain numbers on the Montparnasse series are excellent. No 7 is blinding. But one man's blinding is another man's disco crap. Whenever I've been offered library records that I've been recommended, I would always insist on a listen first - even over the phone. And most dealers I know that collect and sell library LPs know that they sell for a LOT! So you won't find them cheap unless you search and search. I'd be keen for selling all mine for 'dealer' prices now because most of them only have one or two good tracks on Charles Moseley Editor - C3 Magazine 3 St Peter's Street, London, N1 8JD Direct: +44 (0) 20 7704 3313 Main: +44 (0) 20 7226 8585 ISDN: +44 (0) 207 359 6756 www.c3mag.com www.c3mag.com www.c3mag.com # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:17:20 -0500 From: "m.ace" Subject: Re: (exotica) nancy and lee again again >I have an LP called 'Did you ever' (white cover), by Nancy and Lee that has >Lee mocking his own guitar playing and ending with him saying 'can I go back >to Sweden now?', scrambling footsteps and a door (or was that my >imagination?). Apart from 'Did you ever?', which is an OK double entendre >hit from my childhood, it has 'Down from Dover', and 'Red balloon' which I >really rate. Interesting... sounds like that album is "Nancy & Lee Again" retitled for the hit (UK-only hit?). And you remember the ending correctly. That's "Got It Together". - --m.ace # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:06:33 -0500 From: buMp Subject: Re: (exotica) Sampling / Originals >I think that sampling is at its core disrespectful, >and a distortion of the original artist's intention. that is funny, i feel it is the total opposite. i sample things i have great respect for. i am not distorting the original artist's intention because with sound collages, I am the artist, with an intention of making a interesting piece of work out of many. the sampled item is the means, not the end, therefore there is no way i can be distorting any other artists intention since that has nothing to do with what i am doing. their piece remains their piece in all its glory. mine, obviously, will have my intention, glorious or not. i don't feel sampling is illegal or stealing. some of us are not musicians and will never be, but technology and taste has evolved (or devolved, however you wanna stand on it) to a point we can make music using existing sounds we find exciting no matter where they come from. i would like to think it takes some sort artistic talent, and appreciation to do this. as with everything it can be done badly or uncreatively but it can also be done wonderfully with genius. (my props to tipsy dave once again) my point is that everything is its own entity, which cannot be distorted. to think that i am, is distorting MY intentions as a artist or creator. on the other hand. sampled music does not have to be made of other music either, it could be sampled noise, speech etc. am i distorting the intention of nature when i sample a thunderstorm? or the distorting the intention of the trashman when i sample his trash truck munching garbage? probably so, and what does it matter? i am about celebrating sounds, not disrespecting them. its early and i have had no sleep excuse my intention of trying to communicate. cheers y'all bump ps. i do agree wholeheartedly about your documentary film opinions. pss. what about words and the intentions of authors??? what if i use a part of a sentence from a William Burroughs story to create a lyric in a song or the title of a track? is this illegal or disrespectful? don't think so. he could have created it from a cut up (sample) from someone elses book. Brion Gysin maybe! i really gotta stop now. ****************************************************** ***************************** ************* DJ Bump "Primitive Rhythms for Evolved Minds" Defective Records-Executive Producer bump@defectiverecords.com http://www.defectiverecords.com "Music, Non-Stop" -- Ralf + Florian # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:18:42 -0500 From: "m.ace" Subject: Re: (exotica) fellini again - Intervista >Is this the one where they're making a film with Mastrionni, and decide to >go and visit Anita Ekberg up in her hideaway in the hills? Yes. - --m.ace # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:22:48 -0500 From: "m.ace" Subject: Re: (exotica) Film recommendation >Besides the well-known works like "La dolce vita" and "Amarcord", I would >recommend "Casanova", one of Fellini's most underrated movies from the >70s, which is instead an incredible visual experience, and has one of the >best Rota's scores ever. I can't wait for a DVD of it. Oh yeah! I blanked out on that one. It has an amazing intentionally stagy look. Very lavish. It got a bad critical reception, but who cares. - --m.ace # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 07:45:42 -0800 From: "jonathan richardson" Subject: RE: (exotica) KPM - list >This is my "amateur KPM discograpgy". Hardly comprehensive, but better than >nothing... >KPM 1243 lp 1980 Vorhaus,Dave The Vorhaus sound experiments this one interests me a bit. Dave Vorhaus was the man behind White Noise which put out one my all time fav electronic albums called "An Electrical Storm" . I didnt know he did anything else after White Noise. Looks like the search is on!! 1980 is right about at my cutoff date for a lot of electronic music I listen to other than Kraftwerk. Thanks Marco!!! I have a couple of KPM comps and for the most part they are very good. love that Alan Hawkshaw!! - -jonny _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:04:45 -0500 From: nytab@pipeline.com Subject: (exotica) [obits] assorted links http://lonnieglosson.com/lg.htm Lonnie Glosson Mr. Harmonica 14 February 1908 - 2 March 2001 ================== http://www.mtv.com/sendme.tin?page=/news/articles/1441608/20010313/story.jhtml Glenn Hughes ,Village People ======== http://www.latimes.com/obituary/20010311/t000021506.html Frankie Carle; Big Band Leader ==== http://www.country.com/music/news/newswire/benny-martin-0301-f.html Fiddler Supreme Benny Martin Dead at 72 ====== http://www.latimes.com/news/state/20010312/t000021830.html T. McMichael; Last of the Merry Macs Founders === http://www.star-telegram.com/news/doc/1047/1:METRO21A/1:METRO21A0313101.html Bluesman Robert Ealey laid to rest with honors; Musician, mentor eulogized # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:08:41 -0000 From: Charles Moseley Subject: (exotica) Dave Vorhaus The man himself did three White Noise LPs - An Electric Storm in Hell is superb! He also worked at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop and is a pioneer of electronic music. Lots of TV/BBC noises were down to him including the Dr Who theme (I think) - not as composer but as a provider of eerie sounds. That KPM LP is one of several by him. Charles Moseley Editor - C3 Magazine 3 St Peter's Street, London, N1 8JD Direct: +44 (0) 20 7704 3313 Main: +44 (0) 20 7226 8585 ISDN: +44 (0) 207 359 6756 www.c3mag.com www.c3mag.com www.c3mag.com # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:34:03 -0500 From: nytab@pipeline.com Subject: (exotica) KPM ambisonic recordings http://personal.riverusers.com/~manderso/uhjdisc/ambikpm.htm Here's the URL for a short discography of KPM Ambisonic (a surround sound process) recordings. Try this for more links: http://www.google.com/search?q=kpm+discography lousmith@pipeline.com # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:58:01 -0800 (PST) From: Bonita Kelso Subject: (exotica) Blunts, bitches, and Herb Alpert In the middle of all this discussion about the ins and outs of sampling, I heard the most wonderful, horrible thing on the radio (I was twiddling around. That's my excuse): Some unknown rap artist (if anyone knows who, holler) yapping about his own bad ghetto stud self over a slowed down (think a 45 RPM played at 33 1/3) version of Herb Alpert's "Rise." Brother, even if you are pro-sample, that's just LAME. When I record MY hardcore rap EP I'm gonna use the Living Marimbas at 16 RPM! still amazed, Li'l Bonita __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:08:12 +0100 From: "Marco \"Kallie\" Kalnenek" Subject: RE: (exotica) Dave Vorhaus Charles wrote: > The man himself did three White Noise LPs - An Electric Storm in Hell is > superb! THe latest issue of Record Collector (a British magazine) has a review of 'Sound mind' by White Noise V. Apparently a failry recent release by Vorhaus. The 'V' stand for five, I guess - so maybe there are five White Noise albums? > That KPM LP is one of several by him. Correct. Brian Karasick sent me a tape of another one (I have the 'Sound experiments' myself). Brian, what was the title of that album? Marco # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:09:36 -0800 (PST) From: Chuck Subject: Re: (exotica) Mary Mayo I read the liner notes on the back of a clasical record, with a rather dressed up picture (shakespearian) of Mary Mayo and 2 other classical singers. M M had a career as a classical singer and appeared on late night talk shows, like Jack Paar according to these notes. Is Mary Mayo still alive? Besides Moon Gas, one of my all time favorite albums, what else is M M on that is cool? Thanks Chuck > --- Magnus Sandberg wrote: > > This is how Mary Mayo looked in 1951: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1416406751 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:34:04 -0000 From: Charles Moseley Subject: RE: (exotica) Mary Mayo You know what - I'm pretty sure that Mary Mayo is one of the Hillside Singers - a mushy religious LP I bought in Florida. I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony, etc etc. I'll check this weekend. Charles Moseley Editor - C3 Magazine 3 St Peter's Street, London, N1 8JD Direct: +44 (0) 20 7704 3313 Main: +44 (0) 20 7226 8585 ISDN: +44 (0) 207 359 6756 www.c3mag.com www.c3mag.com www.c3mag.com # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:49:47 +0100 (CET) From: "Magnus Sandberg" Subject: RE: (exotica) Mary Mayo citerar Charles Moseley : > > You know what - I'm pretty sure that Mary Mayo is one of the Hillside > Singers - a mushy religious LP I bought in Florida. I'd like to teach the > world to sing in perfect harmony, etc etc. > > I'll check this weekend. I bidded on a record call "The MGM strings" the singer was Mary Mayo, I didnt know anything about it, but I had a hunch it was good, and often my hunches are correct, at least for me. So anyone who has it please tell me cause the record was long gone. She recorded three christmas albums as well, I have tried to locate some copies but still none. Moon Gas is one of my favorites too, Chuck. It is truly fantastic. Magnus # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:14:44 +0100 From: Piero Cavina Subject: RE: (exotica) Film recommendation At 19.45 15/03/01 +0100, Marco \"Kallie\" Kalnenek wrote: >Andr=E9 Popp did a cover version of one of the tunes from that movie. I'd= have >to look up the title, but it was written by Nino Rota. Snakefinger did a cover too, the tune was "Shining faces". - -- Ciao, \ P. \ PGP public key available.=20 # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:14:47 +0100 From: Piero Cavina Subject: Re: (exotica) Film recommendation At 00.09 16/03/01 +0100, Moritz R wrote: >Is there any Fellini film that Nino Rota DIDN'T make the music for? Obviously.. any film made after Rota's death..! I think that the first was "La citt=E0 delle donne", the music was by Luis= =20 Bacalov. Fellini said that it sounded exactly like Rota :) - -- Ciao, \ P. \ PGP public key available.=20 # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:35:26 -0800 From: "F. Cobalt" Subject: (exotica) Re: sampling debate To me, an example of a "bad" sample in a song is when it is so long, you can easily figure out what it is, and then you find yourself wanting to hear the original song the sample came from. That's my only contention. A group like Tipsy does good things with samples. Quite a number of hip-hop groups, and very inept "ambient" musicians do bad things with samples. Mr. Unlucky - -- Mr. Unlucky presents Shoot To Kill, a weekly set of jazz, soundtrack music, Now Sound, and the occasional foray into international territory on Supersphere.com, Thursdays 1-2 p.m. (CST). Many past sets are archived for future listening pleasure. http://www.supersphere.com Get 250 color business cards for FREE! at Lycos Mail http://mail.lycos.com/freemail/vistaprint_index.html # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:46:36 EST From: Tipsydave@aol.com Subject: Re: (exotica) Dave Vorhaus In a message dated 3/16/01 8:07:17 AM, charlesm@contentrepublic.com writes: << He also worked at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop and is a pioneer of electronic music. Lots of TV/BBC noises were down to him including the Dr Who theme (I think) - not as composer but as a provider of eerie sounds. >> The way I heard it, it was Delia Derbyshire (from White Noise-An Electric Storm) who played (and improvised some of) the Dr Who theme, but who knows? - -dave # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:46:22 EST From: DJJimmyBee@aol.com Subject: Re: (exotica)sampling debate I have always liked sampling, even from the mid 8T's when JB's grunts were everywhere to rap's using a lick of an old soul favorite to rap over, to today's loungecore/breakbeat sampling. The music of Ursala 1000 is my favorite modern sampling, although I don't have the Tipsy LP from a few years back. Mose Allison once said that every singer really has only one song. Every other song is a new arrangement of the basic song the singer presents. Following that line, many good songs have really one or two essential hooks. I know, I know, what about the bridge, the choruses, all the other stuff... But when the good hooks are extracted and used in a new context I find it exciting. Even a short Perez Prado shout adds excitement to a new song. ..A good horn lick from an old mambo rekkid weaves another layer onto the groove. It also gives respect to the original imho. Not long ago on this list someone compared todays sampling on top of new beats to a couple of art movements from days gone by....I'd like to hear that one again because it seems that sampling has that same context. Was it the Dadaist Movement?...JB # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:01:43 -0500 From: buMp Subject: Re: (exotica)sampling debate Not long ago on this list someone >compared todays sampling on top of new beats to a couple of art movements >from days gone by....I'd like to hear that one again because it seems that >sampling has that same context. Was it the Dadaist Movement?...JB could have been me. seems i always blurt out opinions when this issue arises since i find it extremely bogus that people always say sampling is lame, stealing and wrong etc. i did compare it to photo collage by the dadaists once. alan just mentioned photo collage as well. another example would be dadaist extrordinaire Marcel Duchamp and his FOUNTAIN sculpture, which was nothing but a URINAL turned upside down with the word "Fountain" written on it. a perfect example of lifting someone elses work to another level or context. using the design and intent of someone else and twisting it into a artistic idea of your own. the importance of this is that ART it is the IDEA, not what it is made of. bump descending the staircase # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:25:58 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Waugh Subject: Re: (exotica) (Exotica) Brother Theodore Out of curiosity: Didn't Brother Theodore play the role of the elder Klopek in The 'Burbs? - --- Tipsydave@aol.com wrote: ===== "What I need is a shot of Drambuie and some clean sheets." - Jack Nance __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:31:21 -0500 From: nytab@pipeline.com Subject: Re: Re: (exotica) (Exotica) Brother Theodore Ben Waugh wrote: > Out of curiosity: Didn't Brother Theodore play the role of the elder Klopek in The 'Burbs? - -------------- aka Uncle Reuben Klopek You are correct, sir! lousmith@pipeline.com # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:44:11 -0800 From: "Ron Grandia" Subject: RE: (exotica) Blunts, bitches, and Herb Alpert >>>Brother, even if you are pro-sample, that's just LAME.<<< Well there ya go... It's funny that when folks start choosing sides, it gets hard to give any concession to the other viewpoint. I have to believe that most "anti-samplers" have formed their opinion based on experience. A lot of the remix stuff out there is repetitive, unimaginitive TRIPE. But that just goes to illustrate my feelings on the matter: It's hard to do well, and that's why it's art. It's easy to shoot at an art-form by pointing to it's misuse. It's amighty big target. Ron "Rollin' with my homies" Grandia # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:14:22 EST From: Tipsydave@aol.com Subject: Re: (exotica) Blunts, bitches, and Herb Alpert In a message dated 3/16/01 9:02:03 AM, bonitakelso@yahoo.com writes: << Some unknown rap artist (if anyone knows who, holler) yapping about his own bad ghetto stud self over a slowed down (think a 45 RPM played at 33 1/3) version of Herb Alpert's "Rise." Brother, even if you are pro-sample, that's just LAME. >> That would be the notorious BIG. It's a puff daddy production, so of course it's lame. I don't use Herb Alpert samples, myself, because I heard that he objects to being sampled. I do remember hearing a rap number that plunders "the Lonely Bull" that I actually liked, though. - -dave # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:45:38 -0800 From: bigshot Subject: (exotica) More slicing and dicing exotica-digest wrote: >Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:16:06 -0500 >From: alan zweig >Subject: Re: (exotica) Sampling / Originals > >I guess I have nothing better to do than to let your black and white >pronouncements push my buttons. I'm not trying to make you mad. If you're getting upset, just move on to something else. I'm just discussing music here. >So I guess your approach would be: >1) Don't make a film about the "artist" at all. >2) Everytime you refer to one of their films/musical performances, you >don't show anything or play anything. >3) The only good biography of Orson Welles would be about 50 hours long >because it would have to include every film he directed or acted in, in its >entirety. I choose none of the above. A good documentary on an artist would include biographical information, interviews and critical comment. But it would also include enough of the art itself *in its own context* for the viewer who isn't familiar with it to get an idea of what it's all about. That doesn't mean that you have to show all of Welles's films in their entirety. It just means you have to show intact segments with the original soundtrack. The approach I don't agree with is when they make alphabet soup montages of fifteen frame bits from all of the films randomly edited to the beat of irrelevant music with people talking in voice over over the top of it. A LOT of documentaries I see are like that. A good documentary film director is transparent. He doesn't allow his own creativity to act as a barrier between the viewer and the subject. MTV style editing may be applicable to rock videos and commercials, but it's no way to make a documentary. >If you were to say that there's a kind of music that often uses >"samples" and generally you don't like that kind of music, >nobody could argue with that. That's a matter of taste. I do have personal tastes in music and film, but that isn't what I'm talking about here. >But to say that the original is always superior to the thing which >samples it, is just stubborn and unsupportable. As I said... every time I've heard music using samples from tunes I am familiar with, I feel that the person doing the sampling produced nothing more worthwhile and valid than the original artist who created the music in the first place did. When I read a review posted here saying that a particular CD uses samples from Martin Denny, Les Baxter, Arthur Lyman and Raymond Scott, EVEN WITHOUT HEARING IT, I feel pretty safe in saying that it would be just about impossible for the group of musicians who produced that CD to create something better than all of their sources. That list of artists includes some of the greatest and most innovative musicians of the fifties, and in Raymond Scott's case, of all time. I'm sure the editing is clever, and it "works" musically. But there would have to be a lot more than just clever editing going on for it to be better than Les Baxter, Martin Denny, Raymond Scott and Arthur Lyman. >What about spoken word samples? If you take Shakespere's sonnets and remove them from their original context, it would be the exact same thing. >If you listen to a lot of these musical pieces which sample bits >and pieces off records, you will come across a lot of bits of spoken >word, originating in many cases from old instructional records, >stereo test records, self-help, motivational, Christian records etc. In that case, where the original being sampled was never intended to be any sort of creative product, taking it out of context might be funny or an amusing non-sequiter. But I can't see how "garbage in" could lead to that much more than "garbage out". Maybe if you were doing a film like Atomic Cafe, you could use stuff like that to make a point, but even Atomic Cafe had large chunks of ephemeral films presented in their original context. Those were the parts of the film that made the point the best. A good example of using non-sequiter bits is David Byrne and Brian Eno's My Life In The Bush of Ghosts. But the quality of the music isn't rooted in the snippets of religious radio broadcasts. Those could be taken out of the mix, and it would still stand on its own. And to answer your question before you ask it, when I listen to that album I *do* wish I could hear the radio snippets in their original context. (Particularly the Arab singer.) See ya Steve Stephen Worth bigshot@spumco.com The Web: http://www.spumco.com Usenet: alt.animation.spumco Palace: cartoonsforum.com:9994 Spumco International 1021 Grandview, 2nd Floor Glendale, CA 91201 # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:00:55 -0500 From: alan zweig Subject: Re: (exotica) Sampling / Originals At 10:06 AM 3/16/01 -0500, buMp wrote: > >ps. i do agree wholeheartedly about your documentary film opinions. I'm not sure who you're agreeing with here bump. But somehow I assume you meant the other guy, the guy who doesn't like to see or hear "excerpts" of the subject's work in a documentary. Far be it from me to defend Ken Burns and his artless "gather excerpts and explain" style of filmmaking. But certainly that style is effective. It can be annoying but at the very least, you'd have to call it a "necessary evil". What about art books? It's true that it would be much better to see the paintings at their original size. In fact, you could make the argument that shrinking the size of a painting to fit it in a book so severely distorts the artist's intentions that it would be better if we never saw this "representation" at all. And I might almost agree. Except then we'd have no art books, no photography books and no films about artists or photographers or musicians or chefs or candlestickmakers. I'm not sure how these two issues got conflated into one. (is that the proper use of the word "conflate"?) Sampling images or music for what is in essence a "collage", is really nothing like excerpting pieces of music to illustrate a point in a documentary. I could give you a thousand silly arguments to illustrate the point that documentarians have no choice but to use that technique. It's like a cooking show. They show you how they prepare it and then for the sake of time, they pull one out of the oven that's already been cooking. Surely you don't say "Hey I wanted to watch it cooking". Or maybe you do. If this list were simply a debating forum, it might be interested to debate HOW filmmakers choose to excerpt and sample. There are issues to debate there. For instance, I know one filmmaker who specialized in films about painters. Like me, he was sick of this technique for shooting paintings that almost everyone uses. The moves are so consistent, it's like they were done with a machine. And often they were. 90% of films about painting start with a closeup in the middle of the painting, then slide slightly to the right (or left) and gradually pull back till you see the whole painting. This guy decided never to do that. He just shows the whole painting, no camera moves or closeups. I loved that he did that. Not many filmmakers think about the "meaning" of the techniques they use. They just do them. And I guess the same thing can be said for "music samplers". I've heard some stuff where it seemed like they just threw in a sample, not because they needed to or because it was integral to the piece but simply "because they could". Jesus, this is a huge topic. I could ask that anyone who replies to my post, please refrain from excerpting any phrase or sentence since it will inherently distort my meaning and the beauty of my work. But I won't. AZ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:26:43 -0500 From: alan zweig Subject: (exotica) I'm finished Really I am. AZ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:07:02 -0500 From: "Domenic Ciccone" Subject: (exotica) Nancy and..... Frank OK rather than do the research myself it's a lot easier to just ask here! How many recordings are there of Nancy and Frank Sinatra? "Nancy in London" has them doing "Life's A Trippy Thing". Anything else available? No easy answers at www.nancysinatra.com, but nice animation. check it out. Domenic Ciccone "Martinis with Mancini" WJUL 91.5FM Friday’s 6-9AM EST http://www.geocities.com/martinimancini/ http://wjul.cs.uml.edu/listen.html (On Real Audio) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:43:49 -0500 From: "cheryl" Subject: (exotica) Uh Oh While we're on the subject... I got the new Tipsy today. It's no secret to this list how much I love Trip Tease - so I was really convinced that this one was never going to live up to my expectations. Happily, I was wrong, wrong, wrong - so far, it's every bit as good, if not better than Trip Tease (high praise indeed...) Definitely well worth the wait! One question for Tipsy Dave, though - didn't you say a while back that Sir Henry was doing some keyboard stuff on this one? Or didn't it end up getting used? ciao, cheryl # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:27:16 -0600 From: "Colleen Pyles" Subject: Re: RE: (exotica) Re: Re: finer with age? Larry wrote: A mere child. I'm a few summers ahead of you, Colleen. (But at least I'm still officially part of the Post-WWII Baby Boom!) ^^^^^^^^^^ THAT'S RIGHT..."BOOMERS" RULE! Colleen _____________________________________ Get your free E-mail at http://www.ireland.com # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:37:22 -0500 From: Lou Smith Subject: Re: (exotica) More slicing and dicing At 03:45 PM 3/16/01 -0800, Steve wrote: >As I said... every time I've heard music using samples from tunes >I am familiar with, I feel that the person doing the sampling >produced nothing more worthwhile and valid than the original artist >who created the music in the first place did. > Um, so where do re-mixes fit into all this? Especially when they've been commissioned by the original artist?? Lou (don't shoot me) # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:42:50 -0500 From: Lou Smith Subject: RE: (exotica) Blunts, bitches, and Herb Alpert At 01:44 PM 3/16/01 -0800, Ron wrote: > > I have to believe that >most "anti-samplers" have formed their opinion based on experience. A lot of >the remix stuff out there is repetitive, unimaginitive TRIPE. > >But that just goes to illustrate my feelings on the matter: It's hard to do >well, and that's why it's art. Doesn't this all just follow the "90% of everything is shit" rule? I mean, that's what's so easy about picking the good old stuff -- there's been more time for the cream to rise and the sediment to fall. Lou # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:47:52 -0500 From: "m.ace" Subject: Re: (exotica) Nancy and..... Frank >How many recordings are there of Nancy and Frank Sinatra? > >"Nancy in London" has them doing "Life's A Trippy Thing". Anything else >available? "Somethin' Stupid" - --m.ace # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:10:31 -0500 From: Lou Smith Subject: (exotica) [obits] Sir Lancelot, Ann Sothern From the Los Angeles Times: Lancelot V. Pinard, aka "Sir Lancelot," a well known calypso singer, born May 24, 1902, in Trinidad, died March 12, 2001, in Anaheim. He appeared in 16 Hollywood films (including "Two Yanks In Trinidad," "Curse of the Cat People," "Buccaneer," and many more), and wrote over 200 songs. Survived by three children, eight grandchildren, fifteen great-grandchildren, six great-great-grandchildren, and nine younger brothers and sisters and their families. He was preceded in death by his wife of 57 years, Marie. ==== Ann Sothern, TV's `Private Secretary,' dies at 92 By BOB THOMAS .c The Associated Press LOS ANGELES (AP) - Ann Sothern, the blond beauty who starred as the movies' wisecracking ``Maisie'' and as the busybody Susie McNamara in the 1950s TV series ``Private Secretary,'' has died at her Idaho home. She was 92. Sothern died late Thursday of heart failure at her home in Ketchum, Idaho, said her spokesman, Mike Kaplan. An accomplished singer as well as comedian, Sothern appeared in MGM musicals such as ``Lady Be Good'' and ``Panama Hattie.'' She was in a second TV series, ``The Ann Sothern Show,'' as the assistant manager of a plush New York hotel. Sothern's film career spanned six decades and included 64 movies and more than 175 TV episodes. Only in 1988 did she win recognition from the Motion Picture Academy. She was nominated for an Oscar as supporting actress in ``The Whales of August,'' which also starred veterans Bette Davis, Lillian Gish and Vincent Price. ``She was one of those people who I think was never, ever appreciated in her own time,'' Robert Osborne, a columnist for The Hollywood Reporter and host of Turner Classic Movies cable TV network, said on Friday. ``There was nothing she couldn't do. Light comedy was her forte, but she also was a good singer and the camera loved her.'' Her first Columbia film was the lightweight 1934 musical ``Let's Fall in Love.'' She followed with more undemanding roles at Columbia and RKO, where she and another contract player, Lucille Ball, commiserated over their lack of progress. After RKO dropped her, Sothern waited a year until she could find a worthy role. ``Trade Winds'' in 1939 offered her sophisticated comedy (dialogue by Dorothy Parker) and brought rave reviews and an MGM contract. Her first MGM film, ``Maisie,'' had been designed for Jean Harlow, who had died in 1937. It cast Sothern as a flip one-time burlesque dancer with a warm heart and a failing for man trouble. Said Variety: ``She's sexy, smart and resourceful - and decidedly likable throughout.'' The film was a hit and led to nine more ``Maisies'' between 1939 and 1947. MGM also starred her in musicals and comedies such as ``Dulcy,'' ``Words and Music,'' ``Three Hearts for Julia,'' ``Thousands Cheer'' and ``Fast and Furious.'' In ``Lady Be Good'' she sang Kern-Hammerstein's ``The Last Time I saw Paris,'' which won the 1941 Academy Award as best song. After leaving MGM, she proved herself as a serious actress in Joseph Mankiewicz's ``A Letter to Three Wives,'' Oscar winner for best picture of 1949. A siege of hepatitis kept her out of acting for a year, then in 1952 she launched her television career with ``Private Secretary.'' ``Like all the other stars at MGM, I had been living in a glass cage,'' she said after facing the rigors of TV schedules. ``Life was beautiful there; everything was done for us. I had forgotten what real work was.'' ``Private Secretary,'' in which she played the nosy Susie McNamara, was an immediate success, lasting from 1953 to 1957. The star quit after a dispute with the producer, and in 1958 she began ``The Ann Sothern Show,'' playing an assistant manager of a big-city hotel. She worked at the former RKO studio, newly owned by Ball and Desi Arnaz. After the series faded in 1961, movie roles became scarce, studios being wary of hiring TV stars. Wanting to return to serious roles, she studied drama with Stella Adler and then played a prostitute in ``Lady in a Cage,'' a political busybody in ``The Best Man,'' a blowzy has-been in ``Sylvia.'' Her other films included ``Chubasco,'' ``The Killing Mind,'' ``Golden Needles'' and ``Crazy Mama.'' She also had one more recurring role in a TV series, a most unusual one: She was the voice of the woman reincarnated as an antique auto in the 1965-66 sitcom ``My Mother the Car.'' She was born Harriette Lake in Valley City, N.D., on Jan. 22, 1909. Her mother sang in concerts, and as a youngster Harriette learned piano and trained as a lyric soprano. Harriette was 6 when her father deserted the family, and her mother moved her three daughters to Minneapolis, and later Los Angeles. Harriette made her film debut in Warner Bros.' early talkie, ``The Show of Shows,'' in 1929. After a few small roles, she went to Broadway for the musicals ``Smiles,'' ``Everybody Welcome'' and ``America's Sweetheart.'' She was appearing in ``Of Thee I Sing'' when Columbia Pictures signed her. Columbia boss Harry Cohn decided there were too many Lakes in movies. She became Ann Sothern, taken from her mother's first name and the distinguished actor E.H. Sothern. Sothern was plagued with health problems in later years. In 1974, a fake tree fell on her during a play, fracturing a vertebra and damaging nerves to her legs. Years of operations and treatments followed. She was married to bandleader-actor Roger Pryor from 1936 to 1942 and to actor Robert Sterling from 1943 to 1949. Both marriages ended in divorce. Sothern moved to 1984 to Ketchum, where she had visited to ski since the 1940s. Her only child, actress Tisha Sterling, had a house nearby and was with her when she died. KETCHUM, Idaho (Reuters) - Actress Ann Sothern, who during 70 years in show business moved from bit-parts and B-movies to becoming an Oscar-nominated leading lady and star of her own television series, has died of heart failure, associates said on Friday. She was 92 years old. Sothern, who started in Hollywood as an extra and spent a decade as a B-movie regular, became a major star after playing the lead role in 1939's "Maisie," an MGM film about the adventures of an energetic showgirl that was originally intended for Jean Harlow. Sothern captured the street-smart, independent title character so well that MGM made nine more "Maisie" movies, one of the studio's most successful series and one that transformed Sothern into a household name and a feminist icon. She capitalized on that image with two 1950's television shows, "Private Secretary" and "The Ann Sothern Show," which ran until 1961 and featured Sothern as the first working woman to appear in a situation comedy. Sothern earned five Emmy nominations for the two shows, which she produced, and won a Golden Globe award. The actress then lent her voice to the 1960's sitcom "My Mother the Car." Sothern spent much of the 1970s and 80s in semi-retirement, but returned in 1987 to star alongside fellow screen legends Lillian Gish, Bette Davis and Vincent Price in "The Whales of August," for which she received her first Academy Award nomination. Born Harriette Lake in Valley City, North Dakota, in 1909, the young actress got her start singing in stage productions and filled mostly bit parts until Columbia Pictures signed her to a contract in 1934 and changed her name. Sothern spent the rest of the decade acting in such films as "The Hell-Cat," "Eight Bells," and two movies opposite Gene Raymond, "Hooray for Love" and "The Smartest Girl in Town." She starred alongside Edward G. Robinson and Humphrey Bogart in "Brother Orchid," winning critical acclaim. Sothern, who was divorced from actor-musician Roger Pryor and actor Robert Sterling, is survived by her daughter and a sister. A mass is scheduled for her at Our Lady of the Snows Church in Ketchum on March 23. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info exotica" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email exotica@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ End of exotica-digest V2 #926 *****************************