From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 01 Jul 1999 09:47:09 EDT In a message dated 6/30/99 8:41:05 PM Central Daylight Time, farseer@swbell.net writes: << Todd, who don't have a nifty nickname yet. >> hi...nifty zopi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 01 Jul 1999 08:36:19 -0600 Traphand, Here's the status page for this bill. Looks like nothing has happened yet. This is a good site, all of us should watch it carefully. www.senate.gov Can do a search on bill number or keyword. Especially note the sponsors - a pack of trouble makers for shore Red Coyote S.1006 SPONSOR: Sen Torricelli, Robert G. (introduced 05/11/99) Jump to: Titles, Status, Committees, Amendments, Cosponsors, Summary TITLE(S): OFFICIAL TITLE AS INTRODUCED: A bill to end the use of conventional steel-jawed leghold traps on animals in the United States. STATUS: Floor Actions ***NONE*** STATUS: Detailed Legislative Status Senate Actions May 11, 99: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Environment and Public Works. STATUS: Congressional Record Page References 05/11/99 Introductory remarks on Measure (CR S5052) COMMITTEE(S): COMMITTEE(S) OF REFERRAL: Senate Environment and Public Works AMENDMENT(S): ***NONE*** COSPONSORS(5): Sen Boxer, Barbara - 05/11/99 Sen Feinstein, Dianne - 05/11/99 Sen Kerry, John F. - 05/11/99 Sen Lautenberg, Frank R. - 05/11/99 Sen Schumer, Charles E. - 06/17/99 SUMMARY: ***NONE*** > -----Original Message----- > From: Traphand@aol.com [SMTP:Traphand@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 6:55 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 > > Has the bill been voted on yet.If not when does it come up for vote.Most > assinine thing i every heard of.let me know if i can help stop another > #$@#$%^&* bill from > passing.Their are on the way to take away your gun rights ,trapping > right.better stop before i start rolling; > > rick petzoldt > long time ago a.m.m. menber > > traphand@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: long, but worth pondering Date: 01 Jul 1999 22:15:31 -0600 I think this is rather interesting. Long, but keep reading >> >>Charlton Heston, speaking on 'Winning the Cultural War,' Tuesday, February >>16, 7:30 pm, Ames Courtroom, Austin Hall. Sponsored by the Harvard Law >>School Forum, a student organization at Harvard Law School. For almost 50 >>years, the Forum has been bringing to HLS noteworthy individuals from all >>fields to engage in exciting and wide-ranging exchanges of ideas. Forum >>programs are open to the public and generally consist of a speech or panel >>discussion followed by a question-and-answer session. >> >>Mr. Heston >> >>I remember my son when he was five, explaining to his kindergarten class >>what his father did for a living. >> >>"My Daddy," he said, "pretends to be people." >> >>There have been quite a few of them. >> >>Prophets from the Old and New Testaments, a couple of Christian saints, >>generals of various nationalities and different centuries, several kings, >>three American presidents, a French cardinal and two geniuses, including >>Michelangelo. >> >>If you want the ceiling re-painted I'll do my best. >> >>It's just that there always seems to be a lot of different fellows up here. >>I'm never sure which one of them gets to talk. Right now, I guess I'm the >>guy. >> >>As I pondered our visit tonight it struck me: If my Creator gave me the >>gift to connect you with the hearts and minds of those great men, then I want >>to use that same gift now to re-connect you with your own sense of liberty ... >>your own freedom of tho ught ... your own compass for what is right. >> >>Dedicating the memorial at Gettysburg, Abraham Lincoln said of America, "We >>are now engaged in a great Civil War, testing whether this nation or any >>nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure." Those words are true >>again. . . I believe that we are again engaged in a great civil war, a >>cultural war that's about to hijack your birthright to think and say what >>lives in your heart. >> >>I fear you no longer trust the pulsing lifeblood of liberty inside you . . . >>the stuff that made this country rise from wilderness into the miracle that >>it is. >> >>Let me back up a little. About a year ago I became president of the >>National Rifle Association, which protects the right to keep and bear arms. I >>ran for office, I was elected, and now I serve ... I serve as a moving target >>for the media who've called me everything from "ridiculous" and "duped" to a " >>brain-injured, senile, crazy old man." I know, I'm pretty old ... but I >>sure Lord ain't senile. >> >>As I have stood in the crosshairs of those who target Second Amendment >>freedoms, I've realized that firearms are not the only issue. >> >>No, it's much, much bigger than that. >> >>I've come to understand that a cultural war is raging across our land, in >>which, with Orwellian fervor, certain acceptable thoughts and speech are >>mandated. >> >>For example, I marched for civil rights with Dr. King in 1963 - long before >>Hollywood found it fashionable. But when I told an audience last year that >>white pride is just as valid as black pride or red pride or anyone else's >>pride, they called me a racist. >> >>I've worked with brilliantly talented homosexuals all my life. But when I >>told an audience that gay rights should extend no further than your rights >>or my rights, I was called a homophobe. >> >>I served in World War II against the Axis powers. But during a speech, when >>I drew an analogy between singling out innocent Jews and singling out >>innocent gun owners, I was called an anti-Semite. >> >>Everyone I know knows I would never raise a closed fist against my country. >> >>But when I asked an audience to oppose this cultural persecution, I was >>compared to Timothy McVeigh. >> >>>From Time magazine to friends and colleagues, they're essentially saying, >>"Chuck, how dare you speak your mind like that? You are using language not >>authorized for public consumption!" >> >>But I am not afraid. If Americans believed in political correctness, we'd >>still be King George's boys - subjects bound to the British crown. >> >>In his book, "The End of Sanity," Martin Gross writes that "blatantly >>irrational behavior is rapidly being established as the norm in almost >>every area of human endeavor. There seem to be new customs, new rules, >>new anti-intellectual theories regularly foisted on us from every >>direction. >> >>Underneath, the nation is roiling. Americans know something without a name >>is undermining the country, turning the mind mushy when it comes to >>separating truth from falsehood and right from wrong. And they don't like >>it." >> >>Let me read a few examples. >> >>At Antioch college in Ohio, young men seeking intimacy with a coed must get >>verbal permission at each step of the process from kissing to petting to >>final copulation ... all clearly spelled out in a printed college >>directive. >> >>In New Jersey, despite the death of several patients nationwide who had >>been infected by dentists who had concealed their AIDs - the state >>commissioner >>announced that health providers who are HIV-positive need not....need >>not. . .tell their patients that they are infected. >> >>At William and Mary, students tried to change the name of the school team >>"The Tribe" because it was supposedly insulting to local Indians, only to >>learn that authentic Virginia chiefs truly like the name. >> >>In San Francisco, city fathers passed an ordinance protecting the rights of >>transvestites to cross-dress on the job, and for transsexuals to have >>separate toilet facilities while undergoing sex change surgery. >> >>In New York City, kids who don't speak a word of Spanish have been placed >>in bilingual classes to learn their three R's in Spanish solely because their >>last names sound Hispanic. >> >>At the University of Pennsylvania, in a state where thousands died at >>Gettysburg opposing slavery, the president of that college officially set >>up segregated dormitory space for black students. >> >>Yeah, I know . . . that's out of bounds now. Dr. King said "Negroes." >> >>Jimmy Baldwin and most of us on the March said "black." But it's a no-no >>now. >> >>For me, hyphenated identities are awkward . . . particularly >>"Native-American. " I'm a Native American, for God's sake. I also happen to >>be a blood-initiated brother of the Miniconjou Sioux. >> >>On my wife's side, my grandson is a thirteenth generation native American . >>. . with the capital letter on "American." >> >>Finally, just last month . . . David Howard, head of the Washington D.C. >>Office of Public Advocate, used the word "niggardly" while talking to >>colleagues about budgetary matters. Of course, "niggardly" means stingy or >>scanty. But within days Howard was forced to publicly apologize and resign. >> >>As columnist Tony Snow wrote: "David Howard got fired because some people >>in public employ were morons who (a)didn't know the meaning of niggardly,' >>(b)didn't know how to use a dictionary to discover the meaning, and (c) >>actually demanded that he apologize for their ignorance. " >> >>What does all this mean? It means that telling us what to think has evolved >>into telling us what to say, so telling us what to do can't be far behind. >> >>Before you claim to be a champion of free thought, tell me: Why did >>political correctness originate on America's campuses? And why do you >>continue to tolerate it? >> >>Why do you, who're supposed to debate ideas, surrender to their >>suppression? >> >>Let's be honest. Who here thinks your professors can say what they really >>believe? >> >>That scares me to death. It should scare you too, that the superstition of >>political correctness rules the halls of reason. >> >>You are the best and the brightest. You, here in the fertile cradle of >>American academia, here in the castle of learning on the Charles River, you >>are the cream. But I submit that you, and your counterparts across the >>land, are the most socially conformed and politically silenced generation >>since >>Concord Bridge. And as long as you validate that ... and abide it ... you >>are - by your grandfathers' standards - cowards. >> >>Here's another example. Right now at more than one major university, Second >>Amendment scholars and researchers are being told to shut up about their >>findings or they'll lose their jobs. Why? Because their research findings >>would undermi ne big-city mayor's pending lawsuits that seek to extort >>hundreds of millions of dollars from firearm manufacturers. >> >>I don't care what you think about guns. But if you are not shocked at that, >>I am shocked at you. Who will guard the raw material of unfettered ideas, >>if not you? Democracy is dialogue! >> >>Who will defend the core value of academia, if you supposed soldiers of >>free thought and expression lay down your arms and plead, "Don't shoot me." >> >>If you talk about race, it does not make you a racist. >> >>If you see distinctions between the genders, it does not make you sexist. >> >>If you think critically about a denomination, it does not make you >>anti-religion. >> >>If you accept but don't celebrate homosexuality, it does not make you a >>homophobe. >> >>Don't let America's universities continue to serve as incubators for this >>rampant epidemic of new McCarthyism. >> >>But what can you do? How can anyone prevail against such pervasive social >>subjugation? The answer's been here all along. >> >>I learned it 36 years ago, on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in >>Washington D.C., standing with Dr. Martin Luther King and two hundred >>thousand people. >> >>You simply ... disobey. >> >>Peaceably, yes. Respectfully, of course. Nonviolently, absolutely. >> >>But when told how to think or what to say or how to behave, we don't. We >>disobey social protocol that stifles and stigmatizes personal freedom. >> >>I learned the awesome power of disobedience from Dr. King . . . who learned >>it from Gandhi, and Thoreau, and Jesus, and every other great man who led >>those in the right against those with the might. >> >>Disobedience is in our DNA. We feel innate kinship with that disobedient >>spirit that tossed tea into Boston Harbor, that sent Thoreau to jail, that >>refused to sit in the back of the bus, that protested a war in Viet Nam. >> >>In that same spirit, I am asking you to disavow cultural correctness with >>massive disobedience of rogue authority, social directives and onerous laws >>that weaken personal freedom. >> >>But be careful ... it hurts. Disobedience demands that you put yourself at >>risk. Dr. King stood on lots of balconies. >> >>You must be willing to be humiliated ... to endure the modern-day >>equivalent of the police dogs at Montgomery and the water cannons at Selma. >> >>You must be willing to experience discomfort. I'm not complaining, but my >>own decades of social activism have left their mark on me. >> >>Let me tell you a story. A few years back I heard about a rapper named >>Ice-T who was selling a CD called "Cop Killer" celebrating ambushing and >>murdering police officers. It was being marketed by none other than >Time/Warner, >>the biggest entertainment conglomerate in the world. Police across the country >>were outraged. Rightfully so - at least one had been murdered. But >>Time/Warner was stonewalling because the CD was a cash cow for them, and >>the media were tiptoeing around it because the rapper was black. >> >>I heard Time/Warner had a stockholders meeting scheduled in Beverly Hills. >>I owned some shares at the time, so I decided to attend. What I did there was >>against the advice of my family and colleagues. I asked for the floor. To a >>hushed room of a thousand average American stockholders, I simply read the >>full lyrics of "Cop Killer" - every vicious, vulgar, instructional word. >> >>"I GOT MY 12 GAUGE SAWED OFF I GOT MY HEADLIGHTS TURNED OFF I'M ABOUT TO >>BUST SOME SHOTS OFF I'M ABOUT TO DUST SOME COPS OFF..." It got worse, a lot >>worse. I won't read the rest of it to you. But trust me, the room was a sea >>of shocked, frozen, blanched faces. The Time/Warner executives squirmed in >>their chairs and stared at their shoes. They hated me for that. >> >>Then I delivered another volley of sick lyric brimming with racist filth, >>where Ice-T fantasizes about sodomizing two 12-year old nieces of Al and >>Tipper Gore. >> >>"SHE PUSHED HER BUTT AGAINST MY ...." >> >>Well, I won't do to you here what I did to them. Let's just say I left the >>room in echoing silence. When I read the lyrics to the waiting press corps, >>one of them said "We can't print that." ''I know," I replied, "but >>Time/Warner's selling it. >> >>Two months later, Time/Warner terminated Ice-T's contract. I'll never be >>offered another film by Warners, or get a good review from Time magazine. >>But disobedience means you must be willing to act, not just talk. When a >>mugger sues his elderly victim for defending herself... jam the switchboard >>of the district attorney's office. >> >>When your university is pressured to lower standards until 80% of the >>students graduate with honors . . . choke the halls of the board of >>regents. >> >>When an 8-year-old boy pecks a girl's cheek on the playground and gets >>hauled into court for sexual harassment . . . march on that school and >>block its doorways. When someone you elected is seduced by political power >>and betrays you . . . petition them, oust them, banish them. When Time >>magazine's cover portrays millennium nuts as deranged, crazy Christians >>holding a cross as it did last month . . . boycott their magazine and the >>products it advertises. >> >>So that this nation may long endure, I urge you to follow in the hallowed >>footsteps of the great disobediences of history that freed exiles, founded >>religions, defeated tyrants, and yes, in the hands of an aroused rabble in >>arms and a f ew great men, by God's grace, built this country. >> >>If Dr. King were here, I think he would agree. >> >>Thank you. >> >> >> > > Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: long, but worth pondering Date: 02 Jul 1999 00:01:52 -0500 Washtahay- No, its really not. It pertains to the study of the fur trade how? LongWalker c. du B. At 10:15 PM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > >I think this is rather interesting. Long, but keep reading >>> >>>Charlton Heston, speaking on 'Winning the Cultural War,' Tuesday, February ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Hall (Idaho) and the Mountain Man Museum (Pinedale, WY) Date: 01 Jul 1999 23:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Stopped by both Fort Hall and the Mountain Man Museum during my little 2500 mile odessey of a vacation. Ran out of time to see all the other places I wanted to.... Fort Hall. Interesting place. I'd like to hear other's opinions of the replica. I was impressed by the amount of work it took to build it, and it is obviously maintained very well..... but.... it almost seems that it was built, and then forgotten. A gem never cut and polished, no curator(?), no knowledgable guides(?). I couldna even find a printed history of the post at the gift/book store. They do have a nice saddle (Shoshone ?) that I took about 100 pictures of. While it fell short of what I had imagined... overall I think it's worth stopping in to see... probably a lot better on the weekends if you can catch some of the local skinners in. The Mountain Man Museum. I was very dissapointed in this museum. It was broad brush at it's best. A video from the 70's with Charlie Hanson was interesting, but the whole thing seemed aimed more at tourists than the scholar... which I suppose it is. They had one of Kit's later guns there, and some other guns... only one of which was flint.. an old beat up british smoothie in about .72 cal (or so). Also had some nice examples of hand forged traps, and some good examples of moccs. They do not allow any photographs inside the museum though. Think I need to head fer the Dakota's next vacation. Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Hall (Idaho) and the Mountain Man Museum Date: 02 Jul 1999 05:36:59 -0700 Lee, Have seen what you mentioned and have never said anything, thinking maybe it was me expecting to much, guess my thoughts were like yours. I thought I was spoiled because of fur trade forts like Bent's Fort, Ft. Union, Ft. deChartre, Ft. Osage, Ft. Charlette and the Museum of the Fur Trade to mention a few, thanks for how you felt on your visits. Our governments will take the time, spend our money and then fall short on the least expensive part, providing educational material and knowledgeable guides. Most folks interested in history, reenactments, etc. would give their "I" teeth to work in these places and have fun doing it. And again we the tax payers take it in the shorts. Later YF&B Buck Conner Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write. The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the bi-monthly journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk food. ________________________________________________________ > On Thu, 01 July 1999, Lee Newbill wrote: > > Stopped by both Fort Hall and the Mountain Man Museum during my little > 2500 mile odessey of a vacation. Ran out of time to see all the other > places I wanted to.... > > Fort Hall. Interesting place. I'd like to hear other's opinions of the > replica. I was impressed by the amount of work it took to build it, and > it is obviously maintained very well..... but.... it almost seems that it > was built, and then forgotten. A gem never cut and polished, no > curator(?), no knowledgable guides(?). I couldna even find a printed > history of the post at the gift/book store. They do have a nice saddle > (Shoshone ?) that I took about 100 pictures of. While it fell > short of what I had imagined... overall I think it's worth stopping in to > see... probably a lot better on the weekends if you can catch some of the > local skinners in. > > The Mountain Man Museum. I was very dissapointed in this museum. It was > broad brush at it's best. A video from the 70's with Charlie Hanson was > interesting, but the whole thing seemed aimed more at tourists than the > scholar... which I suppose it is. They had one of Kit's later guns > there, and some other guns... only one of which was flint.. an old beat up > british smoothie in about .72 cal (or so). Also had some nice examples > of hand forged traps, and some good examples of moccs. They do not allow > any photographs inside the museum though. > > Think I need to head fer the Dakota's next vacation. > > Regards > > Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho > NMLRA member 058863 > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 02 Jul 1999 08:17:43 -0700 A good way to get to know the AMM - it's values and what to expect is do as Buck Conner has suggested. Turtle. _______________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write. The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the bi-monthly journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk food. ______________________________ > On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:53:36 -0500 Jim Colburn > writes: > >Washtahay- > >At 08:35 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > >>How does one go about joining the AMM? There's only a handful of > >skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. > > Todd, they don't really exist. > > Its really just two or three guys who came up with this great > >scheme to > >drive people crazy-lets PRETEND to start this really neat sounding > >organization. When people try to contact us to ask about joining, > >we'll > >send them to someone else, who will send them to someone else, and so > >on > >and so on.... it took a lot of time, writing a lot of letters, making > >a > >lot of phone calls, spending a lot of money to travel a lot of miles > >to > >meet folks who didn't show up (if they ever existed!) when they said > >they > >would before I figured that one out. > > I'm not sure who the two or three guys are though. One of > >these days I am > >gonna come up with some really great trade goods to bribe Hawk or John > >Kramer into telling me-pretty sure one or the other of them would have > >some > >clues. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 02 Jul 1999 09:01:52 -0700 The publication is not bi-monthly, it is quarterly: February, May, August, September......more or less. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 8:17 AM > A good way to get to know the AMM - it's values and what to expect is do as Buck Conner has suggested. > Turtle. > _______________________ > Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write. > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle > 3483 Squires > Conklin, MI 49403 > ATTN: Jon Link > > The subscription for the bi-monthly journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk food. > ______________________________ > > On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:53:36 -0500 Jim Colburn > > writes: > > >Washtahay- > > >At 08:35 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > > >>How does one go about joining the AMM? There's only a handful of > > >skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. > > > Todd, they don't really exist. > > > Its really just two or three guys who came up with this great > > >scheme to > > >drive people crazy-lets PRETEND to start this really neat sounding > > >organization. When people try to contact us to ask about joining, > > >we'll > > >send them to someone else, who will send them to someone else, and so > > >on > > >and so on.... it took a lot of time, writing a lot of letters, making > > >a > > >lot of phone calls, spending a lot of money to travel a lot of miles > > >to > > >meet folks who didn't show up (if they ever existed!) when they said > > >they > > >would before I figured that one out. > > > I'm not sure who the two or three guys are though. One of > > >these days I am > > >gonna come up with some really great trade goods to bribe Hawk or John > > >Kramer into telling me-pretty sure one or the other of them would have > > >some > > >clues. > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Cyber-Skinners' Rendezvous '99 Pix Date: 02 Jul 1999 17:31:20 EDT Greetings Folks, I have my pix posted from the Cyber-Skinners' Rendezvous up at Stik Wlaker's. You will find them at: http://metrostlouis.com/stiks/cyber-vous.htm Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Canut Du Nord Web site Date: 02 Jul 1999 14:57:42 -0700 Terry, Yeah, it's a great web site, but where's the sound track of you, Scott and Dave singing the official anthem of the Canut Du Nord? "Men, Men, Men, Men,......" :-) Hope you all had fun at Westerns, put some pix up for us flatlanders, will ya'? YMDS , Tassee (Yer Fort Nisqually Gal) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 02 Jul 1999 23:29:10 -0500 Sorry to disillusion you LongWalker but, AMM has something over 500 membe= rs at present, it began with 5 good men. We are approaching 2000 member number= s issued over the years. =20 The information is free, no fine nor fancy plunder is needed. I am disappointed to hear some didn't keep their commitments to meet you, that= is not what we are about. The only way to join is to be sponsored by a party, two bosslopers or one hiveranno. We take sponsorship very seriously, as we are first a brotherhood.=20 Until we've been on the ground with a prospect in all seasons, it seldom happens. We are each personally responsible to all the other brothers fo= r the people we sponsor.=20 There was a time when most anyone could join by asking and that brought a= few problems. Now sponsorship is the only way to join, it is not problem fre= e. Sometimes it's difficult to make location & schedules coincide to where y= ou become well enough acquainted with one or more of us to be invited to joi= n. In some areas there are very active parties and joining up through one of th= em isn't as difficult as happening to know a member and becoming close enoug= h for them to know you well enough to offer membership, and when necessary find you a second sponsor. The best way that can happen is to spend time together o= n the trail. Dean tries to find someone close by to contact when someone requests information about joining. Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't.=20 It is a group of individualists some of whom are pretty set in their ways= .=20 Some winter alone very nicely. =20 To give you an idea of how we're spread out; there is an active party abo= ut 250 miles East of me, there is one other member within 100 miles North, and o= ne more another 100 miles on up the road. Its 300 miles South and 500 miles= West to find more. I don't get to see any of them often. Joining is often no= t something easily planned, those who belong find their way to us sooner or later. =20 John...=20 Hiveranno, #656 At 09:53 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: >Washtahay- >At 08:35 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: >>How does one go about joining the AMM?=A0=A0 There's only a handful of >skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. > Todd, they don't really exist.=A0=20 > Its really just two or three guys who came up with this great scheme to >drive people crazy-lets PRETEND to start this really neat sounding >organization.=A0 When people try to contact us to ask about joining, we'= ll >send them to someone else, who will send them to someone else, and so on >and so on....=A0 it took a lot of time, writing a lot of letters, making= a >lot of phone calls, spending a lot of money to travel a lot of miles to >meet folks who didn't show up (if they ever existed!) when they said the= y >would before I figured that one out.=A0=20 > I'm not sure who the two or three guys are though.=A0 One of these days= I am >gonna come up with some really great trade goods to bribe Hawk or John >Kramer into telling me-pretty sure one or the other of them would have s= ome >clues. > Unless you already have those great trade goods to part with, or a lot = of >time to waste trying to find the mythical AMM, read Nasitir and Drummond >and maybe Anderson's journals-still frustrating at times but the results >are likely to be more tangible! >LongWalker c. du B. >=20 If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mountainman333@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 03 Jul 1999 10:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Speaking of the AMM could some one let me know the URL to there web site I seem to have lost it , Im starting a web page and want to add it to my links Thanx in advance. Mike S. http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 03 Jul 1999 08:27:19 -0700 Go to my web site for several links you maybe interested in, including the AMM and others. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ Buck Conner On Sat, 03 July 1999, mountainman333@webtv.net wrote: > > Speaking of the AMM could some one let me know the URL to there web site > I seem to have lost it , Im starting a web page and want to add it to > my links Thanx in advance. Mike S. > > > http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 03 Jul 1999 08:28:23 -0700 Go to my web site for several links you maybe interested in, including the AMM and others. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ Buck Conner On Sat, 03 July 1999, mountainman333@webtv.net wrote: > > Speaking of the AMM could some one let me know the URL to there web site > I seem to have lost it , Im starting a web page and want to add it to > my links Thanx in advance. Mike S. > > > http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dammiller@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 03 Jul 1999 11:38:47 -0500 Mythocal???? Hmmmmmmmm........ Then I just spent that last few days up in the Tetons with GHOSTS..... Even sat with a founding member (had a mythocal picture taken with him)...... But I'm glad that I have been set straight on this issue........wouldn't want to be associated with hoodoo's...... AND I'm not a member......YET........ just was invited to partake of the festivities and all.......boy them ghosts do know how to party!!!!! Dave ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Any Alabama Brothers out there? Date: 03 Jul 1999 12:45:18 -0700 Dear Sirs, Are there any Brothers here from Alabama? I'd like to hook my dad up with some guys in his area. Mainly, I'd like to tell him about any rendezvous or living history events that he could attend as a flatlander. He's a modern muzzleloader, but has gotten interested in "going primitive" since I've started doing it. He's attended one event at Fort Toulouse, but they wouldn't let him watch the shooting competition since he didn't have period attire. ($%#$@ NMLRA!) I'm making him an outfit so that won't happen again. He's in Mobile, but it's nothing to him to travel to Louisiana or Florida or Georgia. Any info you could provide I would be very grateful for. Your Most Humble Servant, Tassee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Any Alabama Brothers out there? Date: 03 Jul 1999 16:33:18 EDT Tassee (and other interested parties) here are some events in the AL,LA,FL and GA areas, culled from Smoke and Fire News and The Territorial Dispatch: ALABAMA: OCT 1-3 - 6th Annual Colonial Isle Dauphine, Dauphine Island Fort Gaines Historical Site 334/861-6992 NOVEMBER 3-7 - Alabama Frontier Days Fort Toulouse/Jackson Park, Wetumpka, AL, contact Fort Toulouse Foundation, 2521 W. Fort Toulouse Road Wetumpka, AL 36093 FLORIDA: JUNE 18-20 Spanish Night Watch, St. Augustine, Jon Williams 904/797-7217 or Rick or Lee 904/794-7682 GEORGIA: OCTOBER 15-17 - 10th Annual Rendezvous & Fun Shoot, Lexington, GA Sponsored by Beaver Swap Primitives, NO OTHER INFO LISTED SOUNDS LIKE LOTS OF ACTIVITIES FOR EVERYBODY. pan throw, shooting, potluck dinners, wood provided, ice avail. tobacco spitting, etc. contact Smoke & Fire News, maybe they have correct contact info Hope this helps, Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mountainman333@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 03 Jul 1999 21:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Thanx, Buck I ll do just that!!! P.S. I always enjoy the list guys!!! Mike S. http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Any Alabama Brothers out there? Date: 03 Jul 1999 22:06:53 EDT Tassee, Forgot to include this info in the previous post: there are also lots of events in the TN, MO, AR and NM areas. If you think your dad might be interested, let me know off-list and I'll get the info to you. Also, he might be interested in a rag like the Smoke & Fire News. Info on their stuff is available online at The Smoke & Fire Co. Not only a good newspaper, but also good plunder available from them. yhs, Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Happy Birthday Date: 04 Jul 1999 11:21:30 -0600 Happy 223rd birthday, Cousin Jonathan! --Janey Canuck (who just turned 132 a few days ago) agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Tomahawk & Long Rifle journal Date: 04 Jul 1999 12:37:43 -0700 List readers, Have talked to Bill Cunningham (editor of Tomahawk & Long Rifle) and I stand corrected on number of journals published each year, with additional subscriptions of interested parties we may get to be a bi-monthly publication in time. But for now you will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. Later Buck Conner Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk food. ________________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Laughlin" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Happy 4th. Date: 04 Jul 1999 13:07:36 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BEC61E.2FEF8F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward. Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot of what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't just fight the British. We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government! Some of us take these liberties so much for granted...We shouldn't. So, take a couple of minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid . . . LET'S ALL REMEMBER THAT FREEDOM IS "NEVER FREE"!!!! Author unknown. ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BEC61E.2FEF8F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Pat Laughlin <pat1@pe.net>
To:=20 <Tom Laughlin <pat1@pe.net>
Date: Sunday, = July 04,=20 1999 12:44 PM
Subject: Happy 4th.

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed=20 the
Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by = the=20 British as traitors, and tortured
before they died.  Twelve had = their=20 homes ransacked and burned.  Two
lost their sons serving in the=20 Revolutionary Army, another had two
sons captured.

Nine of the = 56=20 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the
Revolutionary=20 War.

They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, = and=20 their
sacred honor.  What kind of men were = they?

Twenty-four were=20 lawyers and jurists.  Eleven were merchants, nine
were farmers = and large=20 plantation owners; men of means, well
educated.

But they = signed the=20 Declaration of Independence knowing full well
that the penalty would = be death=20 if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy = planter and=20 trader, saw his
ships swept from the seas by the British Navy.  = He sold=20 his home and
properties to pay his debts, and died in = rags.

Thomas=20 McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to
move his = family=20 almost constantly.  He served in the Congress without
pay, and = his=20 family was kept in hiding.  His possessions were taken
from him, = and=20 poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties = of=20 Dillery, Hall, Clymer,
Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and=20 Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted = that the=20 British
General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for=20 his
headquarters.  He quietly urged General George Washington to = open
fire.  The home was destroyed, and Nelson died=20 bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties = destroyed.  The=20 enemy
jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John = Hart was=20 driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their
13 children = fled for=20 their lives.  His fields and his gristmill were
laid to waste. = For more=20 than a year he lived in forests and caves,
returning home to find his = wife=20 dead and his children vanished.  A
few weeks later he died from=20 exhaustion and a broken heart.

Norris and Livingston suffered = similar=20 fates.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American=20 Revolution.

These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. = They=20 were
soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but=20 they
valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering,=20 they
pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm = reliance=20 on
the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to=20 each
other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred = honor."

They=20 gave you and me a free and independent America.  The = history
books never=20 told you a lot of what happened in the Revolutionary War.
We didn't = just=20 fight the British. We were British subjects at that
time and we = fought our=20 own government!

Some of us take these liberties so much for = granted...We=20 shouldn't.

So, take a couple of minutes while enjoying your 4th = of July=20 holiday
and silently thank these patriots.  It's not much to ask = for=20 the
price they paid . . .

LET'S ALL REMEMBER THAT FREEDOM IS=20 "NEVER FREE"!!!!

Author = unknown.
------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BEC61E.2FEF8F20-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: FWD: Fw: send this on Date: 04 Jul 1999 18:48:10 -0600 DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants < This individual is trying to get one million hits on his web page > > > within 100 days. He is then going to send the address to some > > > legislators to show there are people interested in continuing to > own > > > guns. Just go to his web site to show a hit. > > > > > > http://home.talkcity.com/ArenaBlvd/mar_1/fight_4_2_amnd_rites.html > >> > > Jan and Bill > = > = RFC822 header Received: from smtp2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.32] by mail.market1.com = with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id ABB37120208; Sun, 04 Jul 1999 12:45:07 -0600 Received: from oemcomputer (dal-qbu-zok-vty38.as.wcom.net [216.192.243.38]= ) by smtp2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20828; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:45:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907041845.OAA20828@smtp2.mindspring.com> From: "Jan and Bill" To: "Dave VanderKratts" , "Don & Phyllis Keas" , "Gary Hertzog" , "Jeremy Kline" , "John Eastwood" , "Larry Erpenbach" , "Phil & Connie LaLena" Subject: Fw: send this on Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:43:39 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RCPT-TO: X-UIDL: 431 Status: U = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 04 Jul 1999 19:12:01 -0600 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm/index.html -----Original Message----- Speaking of the AMM could some one let me know the URL to there web site I seem to have lost it , Im starting a web page and want to add it to my links Thanx in advance. Mike S. http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mountainman333@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 04 Jul 1999 21:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Thanx Ron, I appreciate the reply !!!!!!! Mike S. http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Answers to: The AMM Journal & Joining Date: 05 Jul 1999 10:43:38 -0700 Thanks to Buck & John - they have given interested parties the resource and general information on the AMM. Turtle. ______________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov. Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk food. Later Buck Conner AMM - Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ______________________________________________________________ AMM has something over 500 members at present, it began with 5 good men. We are approaching 2000 member numbers issued over the years. The only way to join is to be sponsored by a party, two bosslopers or one hiveranno. We take sponsorship very seriously, as we are first a brotherhood. Until we've been on the ground with a prospect in all seasons, it seldom happens. We are each personally responsible to all the other brothers for the people we sponsor. There was a time when most anyone could join by asking and that brought a few problems. Now sponsorship is the only way to join, it is not problem free. Sometimes it's difficult to make location & schedules coincide to where you become well enough acquainted with one or more of us to be invited to join. In some areas there are very active parties and joining up through one of them isn't as difficult as happening to know a member and becoming close enough for them to know you well enough to offer membership, and when necessary find you a second sponsor. The best way that can happen is to spend time together on the trail. Dean Rudy tries to find someone close by to contact when someone requests information about joining. Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't. It is a group of individualists some of whom are pretty set in their ways. Some winter alone very nicely. To give you an idea of how we're spread out; there is an active party about 250 miles East of me, there is one other member within 100 miles North, and one more another 100 miles on up the road. Its 300 miles South and 500 miles West to find more. I don't get to see any of them often. Joining is often not something easily planned, those who belong find their way to us sooner or later. John Kramer If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canut Du Nord Web site Date: 05 Jul 1999 23:00:43 -0700 I'll talk to Dave about that . hey i stared down a bear sat at Nat. 15-20 feet away . what a rush! YMHS, Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canut Du Nord Web site Date: 05 Jul 1999 23:49:39 -0700 Yeah? Think about how the poor bear felt! (sorry, couldn't resist!) Medicine Bear terry l landis wrote: > I'll talk to Dave about that . hey i stared down a bear sat at Nat. 15-20 > feet away . what a rush! > YMHS, > Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canut Du Nord Web site Date: 06 Jul 1999 12:30:37 -0700 terry l landis wrote: > I'll talk to Dave about that . hey i stared down a bear sat at Nat. 15-20 > feet away . what a rush! Moose-Moose, For crying out loud! Are we gona have to wait until it comes out in Field and Stream before we hear the details?! I had a great time up there, kinda sorry I missed the bear. Sure met a lot of nice folks and saw some beautiful scenery anyway. So tell the story! I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 06 Jul 1999 20:44:22 -0600 Dave, Have you developed those pictures yet ??? could be an interesting picture if it turns up showing you with your arm around a tree or something... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: MtMan-List: the bear at Nat. Date: 07 Jul 1999 10:41:22 -0700 Saturday morning we got up and packed out all the gear we wouldn't need for the last day and took it out. a couple of miles away there was a set of teepee rings so we went to investigate them . when we got back it was hot . so i went down to the creek to wash pots and bring up some water to boil. well i got done washing and i stuck my head in the creek for some heat relief. the whole time i was down there i didn't feel right,but i couldn't put my finger on why . so when i stood up and shook the water offin my head i looked over to the other bank and looking at me over a big log was this bear. all i could see at first was the top of it's nose , eyes and ears. my first thought was "thats a bear!"then it was "shit thats a small bear!" so i reached down -never taking my eyes off of that bear- picked up my hat and put it on. i then turned around and got the pots of water i had and stood up and looked at that bear. it was sniffing around right where i first saw it .i walked half way to the hill and turned around still there and no momma yet. i walked up to the bottom of the hill and turned around, still there. this hill is about20-30 ft high and i got up it in 10 steps and didn't spill a drop. my booshway is sitting at the top in the shade and when i got to the top i hollered at him "hey dave f%$&in Ephraim" and he said "huh?" and i said a little louder " f%$&in Ephraim" he said " what?" and i said " a god damned bear" and pointed to the spot . we let the rest of camp know so it could be chased off because of the horses and all. and then Dave says yer name is Ephraim now. you earned it so now you got it. and then he said "what did you learn today?" i said never leave camp with out a loaded gun. what a trip for this pilgrim to his first rocky mountain rendezvous. that bear was down where dirty shirt was camped the day before . stood about 4ft tall and was the most beautiful shade of copper/ blonde. shining times i shall never forget. in those rocky mountains my sense of brotherhood was born. YMHS, " Ephraim" Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the bear at Nat. Date: 07 Jul 1999 15:13:44 EDT Ephraim: Where exactly are these tipi rings? These are the kinds of things I like to seek out and make a vacation of going to see them. We frequently search out petroglyph sites, here in the west and I then bring my family to see them. Tipi rings would be very interesting to us. You can trust us not to molest them in any way and keep them a secret from people who may. If you don't want the whole world to know, contact me off-list, if you don't mind. Thanks, Carp - kc764@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the bear at Nat. Date: 07 Jul 1999 13:35:41 -0700 "Ephraim", Your lucky that this little guy's mamma didn't show or even some of it's friends, I have talked to the US Forestry folks that work the bears in several of the western National Parks, and that type of encounter I'm told can get real nasty - real fast. Personally have never had that experience, but Mike Moore, Buck Conner and Ken "Quill" Smith of the Baker Party have; Ken ran into a mother and her baby just a few weeks ago from what I understand at a party camp in South Park, CO. At the Rocky Mountain College held in this area it's not uncommon for such sightings, as is the area of this years Nationals. Thank you for sharing your story, one that I'm sure will be remembered and told many times in your travels. Turtle. ________________________ > On Wed, 07 July 1999, terry l landis wrote: > Saturday morning we got up and packed out all the gear we wouldn't need > for the last day and took it out. a couple of miles away there was a set > of teepee rings so we went to investigate them . when we got back it was > hot . so i went down to the creek to wash pots and bring up some water to > boil. well i got done washing and i stuck my head in the creek for some > heat relief. the whole time i was down there i didn't feel right,but i > couldn't put my finger on why . so when i stood up and shook the water > offin my head i looked over to the other bank and looking at me over a > big log was this bear. all i could see at first was the top of it's nose > , eyes and ears. my first thought was "thats a bear!"then it was "shit > thats a small bear!" so i reached down -never taking my eyes off of that > bear- picked up my hat and put it on. i then turned around and got the > pots of water i had and stood up and looked at that bear. it was sniffing > around right where i first saw it .i walked half way to the hill and > turned around still there and no momma yet. i walked up to the bottom of > the hill and turned around, still there. this hill is about20-30 ft high > and i got up it in 10 steps and didn't spill a drop. my booshway is > sitting at the top in the shade and when i got to the top i hollered at > him "hey dave f%$&in Ephraim" and he said "huh?" and i said a little > louder " f%$&in Ephraim" he said " what?" and i said " a god damned bear" > and pointed to the spot . we let the rest of camp know so it could be > chased off because of the horses and all. and then Dave says yer name is > Ephraim now. you earned it so now you got it. and then he said "what did > you learn today?" i said never leave camp with out a loaded gun. > what a trip for this pilgrim to his first rocky mountain rendezvous. > that bear was down where dirty shirt was camped the day before . stood > about 4ft tall and was the most beautiful shade of copper/ blonde. > shining times i shall never forget. in those rocky mountains my sense of > brotherhood was born. > YMHS, > " Ephraim" > Terry Landis Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700 I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing it the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the correct way! Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 18:20:55 EDT Munroe: You can make char cloth easily by putting some 100% cotton or flax material in a tight can, like a steel film can, with a small hole in the top from, say, an ice pick, or the tip of a knife. This material can not have fire proof treatment, for obvious reasons. Put the can in a camp fire or a propane bbq, not on your home stove, so your wife doesn't kill you and leave it there until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes or an hour. This "burns" the cloth in an oxygen free environment, thereby not completely consuming the material and making it suseptable to catching a spark. As far as your flint; yes you get the best results from a sharp edge. Use your fire steel to knap the edge of the rock, by striking it and knocking a sharp edge into the rock. By the way, other rocks, besides flint, will create a spark, e.g., quartz, that I pick up out here in the west all the time, sparks very well. Also, you will notice that some rocks have "hot spots" and you will learn to know your rocks. These "hot spots" are where you will want to continue to strike, for best results. Your fire steel needs to be high carbon steel. Anybody who makes them, commercially, will make them from high carbon steel, or they won't sell many, because they won't work. Make a "nest" from dried grass, dead bark from a cedar tree, or something along those lines. Put your rock on top of a piece of your charcloth, strike the rock and catch a spark on it. Then, place the glowing cloth in the middle of your "nest", blow on it until it bursts into flame and place it in you prepared kindling where you want your fire. OSHA warning; this will be hot so don't hold onto it very long (so we don't get sued). Hope this helps. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 17:35:45 -0500 Monroe, What you are trying to do is scrape off some of the steel with the stone. The steel should be hardened. Some modern tool steels don't spark well. If you sometimes get spark and sometimes don't it is probably more your technique than fault of the stuff you're using. It helps to have a sharp edge though if your technique is good you can get spark from a pretty dull edge. The angle of attack is more important than how hard you hit. Again, think of the stone scraping a layer off the steel. Think of the angles you use when sharpening a knife. I usually hold the flint (more or less) stationary with a tiny piece of char on top and strike the steel against the stone edge. I have used a fifty cent size piece of stone for months at a time when I was a hand rolled cigarette chain smoker and lit every smoke or fire with flint & steel. A good flint doesn't wear out in a few strokes. I have been using the same steel since '76, it's worn but still works. When I was only striking a light I usually caught a spark with a single strike. Now several years later (and out of daily practice) it usually takes a few strokes to do the same. Back in '79 I was on a ride in Wyoming with a large AMM brigade. One of the graybeards was complaining about not being able to strike a spark during a break to rest the horses. First he thought it was his stone so I took it and struck spark, then he figured it was his striker, it too worked for me, then he figured it was his char and that worked for me as well with his stone and striker. The point is I was in practice and he wasn't. Practice makes perfect. Technique will suffer with lack of use. John... At 01:46 PM 7/7/99 -0700, you wrote: >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing it >the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 07 Jul 1999 17:46:33 -0500 John Kramer wrote: > > Sorry to disillusion you LongWalker but, AMM has something over 500 members at > present, it began with 5 good men. We are approaching 2000 member numbers > issued over the years. > > The information is free, no fine nor fancy plunder is needed. I am > disappointed to hear some didn't keep their commitments to meet you, that is > not what we are about. > > The only way to join is to be sponsored by a party, two bosslopers or one > hiveranno. We take sponsorship very seriously, as we are first a > brotherhood. > Until we've been on the ground with a prospect in all seasons, it seldom > happens. We are each personally responsible to all the other brothers for the > people we sponsor. > > There was a time when most anyone could join by asking and that brought a few > problems. Now sponsorship is the only way to join, it is not problem free. > > Sometimes it's difficult to make location & schedules coincide to where you > become well enough acquainted with one or more of us to be invited to join. > In > some areas there are very active parties and joining up through one of them > isn't as difficult as happening to know a member and becoming close enough for > them to know you well enough to offer membership, and when necessary find > you a > second sponsor. The best way that can happen is to spend time together on the > trail. > > Dean tries to find someone close by to contact when someone requests > information about joining. Sometimes that works out and sometimes it > doesn't. > It is a group of individualists some of whom are pretty set in their ways. > Some winter alone very nicely. > > To give you an idea of how we're spread out; there is an active party about > 250 > miles East of me, there is one other member within 100 miles North, and one > more another 100 miles on up the road. Its 300 miles South and 500 miles West > to find more. I don't get to see any of them often. Joining is often not > something easily planned, those who belong find their way to us sooner or > later. > > John... > Hiveranno, #656 > > At 09:53 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Washtahay- > >At 08:35 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > >>How does one go about joining the AMM? There's only a handful of > >skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. > > Todd, they don't really exist. > > Its really just two or three guys who came up with this great scheme to > >drive people crazy-lets PRETEND to start this really neat sounding > >organization. When people try to contact us to ask about joining, we'll > >send them to someone else, who will send them to someone else, and so on > >and so on.... it took a lot of time, writing a lot of letters, making a > >lot of phone calls, spending a lot of money to travel a lot of miles to > >meet folks who didn't show up (if they ever existed!) when they said they > >would before I figured that one out. > > I'm not sure who the two or three guys are though. One of these days I am > >gonna come up with some really great trade goods to bribe Hawk or John > >Kramer into telling me-pretty sure one or the other of them would have some > >clues. > > Unless you already have those great trade goods to part with, or a lot of > >time to waste trying to find the mythical AMM, read Nasitir and Drummond > >and maybe Anderson's journals-still frustrating at times but the results > >are likely to be more tangible! > >LongWalker c. du B. > > > If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. > john Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 18:00:59 -0700 Not specifically mentioned below is that most people hold the flint in one hand, and strike it with the steel, using a glancing blow, as if you were shaking a fly off the fist holding the steel. This will shave sparks off as noted, which land on the char cloth held either above or below the flint (whatever seems more secure, and after noting where your stroke sends the most sparks). Also, I have made char in a lot less than 45 minutes, I suppose it depends on the heat of the fire. The main amount of smoke gets over with in 5-10 minutes; there is some question whether you can "overcook" the char, but in any case, after the smoke dies away, allow to cool before inspecting. It will probably work if it is dark brown to fully black. If it will not take a spark, test with a match -- if it will not catch, your cloth may have had fire retardent added (washing thoroughly may help). Any amount of synthetic fiber will also gum up the works with a plastic coating. Use a long, slowly building breath of air to nurse your glowing char into a flame -- don't huff and puff. Pat Quilter. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 3:21 PM Munroe: You can make char cloth easily by putting some 100% cotton or flax material in a tight can, like a steel film can, with a small hole in the top from, say, an ice pick, or the tip of a knife. This material can not have fire proof treatment, for obvious reasons. Put the can in a camp fire or a propane bbq, not on your home stove, so your wife doesn't kill you and leave it there until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes or an hour. This "burns" the cloth in an oxygen free environment, thereby not completely consuming the material and making it suseptable to catching a spark. As far as your flint; yes you get the best results from a sharp edge. Use your fire steel to knap the edge of the rock, by striking it and knocking a sharp edge into the rock. By the way, other rocks, besides flint, will create a spark, e.g., quartz, that I pick up out here in the west all the time, sparks very well. Also, you will notice that some rocks have "hot spots" and you will learn to know your rocks. These "hot spots" are where you will want to continue to strike, for best results. Your fire steel needs to be high carbon steel. Anybody who makes them, commercially, will make them from high carbon steel, or they won't sell many, because they won't work. Make a "nest" from dried grass, dead bark from a cedar tree, or something along those lines. Put your rock on top of a piece of your charcloth, strike the rock and catch a spark on it. Then, place the glowing cloth in the middle of your "nest", blow on it until it bursts into flame and place it in you prepared kindling where you want your fire. OSHA warning; this will be hot so don't hold onto it very long (so we don't get sued). Hope this helps. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 18:54:03 -0700 Monroe, It is the steel and not the rock that cause the sparks. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 3:20 PM > Munroe: > You can make char cloth easily by putting some 100% cotton or flax material > in a tight can, like a steel film can, with a small hole in the top from, > say, an ice pick, or the tip of a knife. This material can not have fire > proof treatment, for obvious reasons. Put the can in a camp fire or a > propane bbq, not on your home stove, so your wife doesn't kill you and leave > it there until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes or an hour. This "burns" > the cloth in an oxygen free environment, thereby not completely consuming the > material and making it suseptable to catching a spark. > > As far as your flint; yes you get the best results from a sharp edge. Use > your fire steel to knap the edge of the rock, by striking it and knocking a > sharp edge into the rock. By the way, other rocks, besides flint, will > create a spark, e.g., quartz, that I pick up out here in the west all the > time, sparks very well. Also, you will notice that some rocks have "hot > spots" and you will learn to know your rocks. These "hot spots" are where > you will want to continue to strike, for best results. > > Your fire steel needs to be high carbon steel. Anybody who makes them, > commercially, will make them from high carbon steel, or they won't sell many, > because they won't work. > > Make a "nest" from dried grass, dead bark from a cedar tree, or something > along those lines. Put your rock on top of a piece of your charcloth, strike > the rock and catch a spark on it. Then, place the glowing cloth in the > middle of your "nest", blow on it until it bursts into flame and place it in > you prepared kindling where you want your fire. OSHA warning; this will be > hot so don't hold onto it very long (so we don't get sued). > > Hope this helps. > > Carp > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 22:16:13 -0500 Munroe To clarify another post, the flint scrapes tiny pieces of steel from = the striker which are rendered essentially molten by the friction of the = scraping action of the flint on the steel. These tiny pieces of hot = steel are the sparks that will ignite charred fabric or wood. A good = sharp flint and a good steel will produce plenty of sparks virtually = every strike if the proper angle and speed are used . Getting a good = shower of sparks is accomplished the same way a musician gets to = Carnegie Hall....practice, practice, practice. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 3:46 PM > I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of = flint > and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have = been > trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I = get a > shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get = any. I > can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing = it > the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear = out the > edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I = can > find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In > between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the > correct way! >=20 > Munroe Crutchley > Grants Pass, OR >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and steel info Date: 07 Jul 1999 20:29:04 -0700 Thanks everyone for the info on firemaking; sounds like I need to put in some time at it. Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 03:46:19 GMT On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700, you wrote: >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have = been >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get= a >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. = I >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing = it >the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out = the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > > Never have had time to finish this darn thing.... This is from March, 1998......just wanted to show Dean I still lurk a lot around here, but don't post much any more. BTW, if anyone wants the pics of the New Orleans price guide from 1831, I finally figured out how to send them in a painless fashion. Several people have asked for this information recently. The following is a reprint of an article I posted in early October. The finished article was lost in a hard disk crash around Thanksgiving, and I have not recreated it. This is based on several years of experience, and an exchange on the Usenet group soc.history.living with several folks who also frequent this mailing list. Scott, see if you can find your own words in this! I'm sorry, but the article is NOT complete. If you've never made a flint and steel fire before, here's the gist of it. The following is a DRAFT copy. The actual article is only about half done. I=92m retaining the copyright for this article, since I hope to have it published for profit and make millions of dollars when Steven Spielberg turns this into a major movie.. The final article had all the contributors listed. I don't have them here, but pulled all the 1996-1997 exchanges off of Deja News by doing a search for "fire starting". When I rewrite this, full credit to all contributors will be given, especially for the info on charwood. The article needs a lot of wordsmithing. I have not done much except spell check it, so it is obviously not ready to go yet. =20 ---------------------------- There=92s a lot of ways to start fires. I=92m going to cover techniques I=92ve used off and on over the last 19 years. I=92ll also cover a few techniques that I do NOT have a lot of experience with, but other folks do I=92ll be straight with you when I report on something someone else recommends, but I=92ve only experimented with. If I don=92t like = the method, I=92ll tell you, but understand it may be because I don=92t have the technique down due to enough experimentation. Try it yourself. =20 We=92re going to cover charcloth making, striker selection, flint selection, proper tinder and then tie all this together into proper flint and steel firestarting. Char is usually made from cloth, but several people I corresponded with have used different natural materials. This will be covered later on. We=92ll also cover how to select and use a firebow, how to use your shootin=92 iron as a fire starter, char wood making and use, the burning lens (aka magnifying glass), and we=92ll end it with what I diplomatically call =93shortcut=94 (others may call it cheating) techniques some scum-sucking weasles use to get an edge on the competition, just so you have an idea of what to look out for. Charcloth Making =46orget all the stuff they told you in Boy Scouts about using dryer lint, picking up a rock and striking sparks, or rubbing two sticks together. It=92s hogwash. If you follow the recommendations in this article, make a batch or two of charcloth so you can see what is =93good=94 versus =93bad=94 select a flint as described, and have a good striker, you=92ll have flame in less than 15 seconds almost every time you try. My personal best at fire starting is 8.1 seconds, and that took third place.=20 Char is important because you need some material that will catch the sparks from your striker. You can have a marvelous striker and flint, and chuck sparks into dryer lint until the cows come home. And they come home about the time you have a spark catch in the dryer lint. =20 The reason you char cloth is to essentially turn it into pure carbon, kinda like a super charcoal briquette. You want a material that chars well, and has a lot of surface roughness to hold the spark from the striker until it can ignite the cloth. Dryer lint, et. al, has a much higher combustion temperature to keep a coal glowing than does char cloth. That=92s why it is so hard to start a fire this way. Good char cloth will grab a spark as soon as it hits. Start with 100 percent cotton or linen fabric. Make absolutely sure there are no synthetics. These will melt and burn and leave a fire-proof coating over what remains of the fabric. It also makes an awful mess of your char tin. Wool has its own fire retardant. Lore has it that you can=92t make char cloth out of wool, and I always believed it until I sat down to write these lines. I=92ve always accepted that wool won=92t work, but you know, I have never tired it. I will have to take a shot at it next time I make up a batch of char. I=92ve heard that using cloth with patterns makes inferior char cloth. In my experience, it doesn=92t seem to matter. New fabric such as left overs from shirt making need to be washed several times before you char them. Most material like this contains a something called a sizing, which is fine clay impregnated in the cloth to make it smoother and easier to cut for patterns. You can make char cloth from it, but the sizing leaves a bit more ash in the tin, and sometimes keeps a spark for catching as it seems to have to burn through the sizing first. Pure canvas from the sewing store works pretty good after being well washed. Flannel works well too if you make sure you do NOT get the flame-retardant kind. All of these things will work. To make char cloth you can=92t put out without water, you have to use a special type of cloth. Forget about blue jeans, cotton scraps, flannel, canvas, etc. The best stuff I have ever found for char cloth is called Monk's Cloth (available at almost any sewing center, at least here in Texas). It has 5-9 threads in the warp and the woof (?) (these are sewing terms I really don't understand, but it means the top layer weaves in and out of the bottom layer {going sideways of course} kinda like the plastic webbing you have on your aluminum framed lawn chairs, except this is all cotton, and is a lot thinner weave. Monks cloth looks a lot like a coarser weave of the gauze you=92d find in a first aid kit. For those of you who are wondering, I=92ve tried using gauze for char also. It crumbles too easily compared to the Monk=92s cloth for my taste, but catches a spark immediately. If I ever get access to a scanner, I=92ll upload a picture to the web. How do you make char cloth? Easy. Get some 100% linen or cotton, or if you=92ve been paying attention, get some Monk=92s cloth ( wash it once or twice first-a yard of this stuff will start hundreds of fires), cut it up into about inch and a half squares, no larger. When you have a decent handful of pieces, put them in your char tin. I fill my tin (one of the old, large shoe polish tins) so that the pile sticks out about three-eighths of an inch before putting the lid on. This compresses the cloth a little, but I=92ve never noticed a problem . If you really stuff the tin full, you=92ll find a lot of the material in the center is not properly charred. A little compression is ok, a lot is bad. A char tin is nothing more than a small metal can that has a tight fitting metal lid. A shoe polish tin or a pint paint can works great. The pint paint can doubles as a container when making char wood. We=92ll cover that later. Clean out all residue from the previous inhabitant of the can before your start. The real secret is to have a very tight fitting lid, and to close it down tight after you put in the cloth. Next, take a small nail, about a one inch finishing nail and poke a hole in the lid. =20 Now, find a small twig and sharpen it until it plugs the hole you just punched in the top as tight as can be. Set the twig aside, as you won=92t need it for a while. Now toss the can, lid up on the fire. I=92ve tried a bunch of different fires. Some work and some don=92t and = I don=92t know why. Campfires seem to make the best char cloth. Set it on the edge of the coals, and plan 2-5 minutes a side for cooking. Good charcoal fires work about the same. I=92ve tried this numerous times on my propane grill in the backyard, and on my coal forge, at both fast and slow heats, and never had any luck with making good char. My best guess is that even on =91slow=92 heat, it is still too = much for propane and coal. Okay, you have your char tin heating on the fire. More and more smoke is coming out the tiny hole you made (that=92s why you made it!). The smoke smells really nasty. Drop a burning twig across the hole to ignite the smoke if you or your neighbors have a sensitive nose. When the smoke trail is almost gone, flip the can over in the fire, wait 1-2 minutes, and flip it back over. If there is no more smoke pull the can out of the fire, and IMMEDIATELY stick the twig into the hole on the top. The twig is to prevent pulling air back into the can as it cools down. =20 This is why it is nice to make char toward nightfall. If the can starts glowing red, it tells you that you do NOT have an airtight seal, and that air is being sucked back into the char tin, setting the char on fire....that=92s why the can is a dull red in color...it=92s hot. If this happens, toss the charcloth out and start over. I once needed to make some char at rendezvous and had stepped on the lid, so couldn=92t get a good seal. Rather than go borrow another tin, I tried making up a thick mud of clay, smeared that around the rim, put on the lid, added a bit more clay to the seam and tossed it in the fire. It worked like a charm. If the char is brown, or even has white spots, it was not on the fire long enough. Put it back in the can and cook it some more. You should see more smoke coming out the hole as you finish charring the cloth. If the char is brittle, it has been overcooked or still had the sizing left in the cloth. Leftover sizing often also leaves a shiny residue in the can. If it is brittle, throw it away and start over. Good char should be bend double without any cracking or crazing while being uniformly black in color. You should be able to bend it in half with no problems. If it can=92t do that, it is overcooked and makes inferior charcloth. Yep, it will still start fires, just not nearly as quickly. Assuming none of these bad things happened, congratulations! You=92ve made your first char cloth! Now what? Selecting a Flint A lot of people think this is a no-brainer, but it is important. There are two things you want in a flint. The first is sharpness, and the second is hardness. A truly sharp flint is like a piece of broken glass. It is one molecule thick on the edge. No steel knife of any type can even begin to approach that sort of sharpness. Learn how to knap a flint for maximum sharpness. It makes a big difference in how strong a string of sparks you can toss from the steel. Some of the best flints I=92ve ever had have been flakes and spalls left around after someone demonstrated arrowhead making. They=92re small and exceedingly sharp. Rule of thumb is that the darker the piece of flint, the harder it is. And the harder the piece of flint, the lower it dulls. But I=92ve seen some awfully light colored flints throw some very impressive sparks. So I give sharpness the nod over the hardness of the flint. If you can find it, get a chunk of red jasper. Some parts of the country it is easy to come by, and others quite difficult. Here in Houston, where we=92re 100 miles or more from the nearest rock at ground level, I cruise gravel parking lots. Much of the gravel we get is flint, and there always seems to be a piece or two of red jasper. Red jasper is 2-3 times as hard as flint, and if sharp will really throw some truly awesome sparks that can still sizzle when they hit the ground.=20 Selecting a Striker There are two types of strikers. Good ones and bad ones. Initially, it can be hard to tell the difference. The best place to get a GOOD striker is at rendezvous from the smith who made it. If you buy it from someone other than the blacksmith who made it, test it out for 10-15 minutes. Rule of thumb is that you should be able to hold the striker at waist level, strike it with the flint, and have sparks burning at the top of your moccasins. When you find a striker that does this, keep striking for about 15 minutes. Some of the strikers available have only a case hardening. Those sparks you see are little bits of burning metal cut off by the flint (see why we want a sharp flint?) and ignited by the friction of the flint hitting the striker.. If you only have a case hardness on the steel the metal is hard for only 2-3 thousands of an inch, and after 10 or so minutes of striking, suddenly quit giving off a spark. You=92ve used up the hardness, and the striker is worthless. You=92ll pay a few bucks more getting a striker from the original smith, but you=92ll also get a lifetime guarantee, most likely. Make sure the striking face is smooth. If it is made from a file, make sure that there are no file marks left on the face of the striker, or near the edges where a flint can hit. Catching one of these defects can snap the striker in half, as it forces it to break along a fault line. Tinder Tinder is made out of dead plants, the finer the better. There=92s a lot of good material out there. Dead grasses rolled through the hands until they become fibers, tow used in taxidermy (the leftovers from the flax plant when the linen is removed), hay, pine needles, cedar bark ground up finely by hand and allowed to dry. You want to keep it fine, but not turn it into a powder. Tinder is the stuff that will take the glowing coal from you char cloth and suddenly burst into flame for building your fire. Get the deadest, driest stuff you can find, dry it some more, and then keep it dry! Making a Fire by Flint and Steel Okay, you now have good charcloth, a good flint, a good steel and some tinder. How do we go about turning this into a conflagration? No problem. First of all, you=92re going to split up some kindling. Then you=92re going to follow the three (3) steps below EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. Once you get these three steps down pay, you can start experimenting to improve your speed. The tender you have will burn for only a few seconds, so you have to get some larger stuff burning during that time. Start by getting some dry wood split into pieces about the size of match sticks, and gradually progressing until you are adding pieces about a half to inch in diameter. At that point there is no way the fire is going out unless the heavens open up. We=92re not going to get into types of fires. I like a tipi style, other like some of the many others. Use what works for you. 1. Strike the spark. If you=92re right-handed, hold the steel in your left hand. Hold the flint/jasper level in your right with 2-3 pieces of char on top of the rock. The sharp edge of the flint must point to yor right.Use your thumb to keep the char from slipping off and position it so that the char is even with the striking edge of the flint. Use the steel to whack the flint in a rather gentle motion. You=92re trying to shave off tiny pieces of burning metal with the flint, not bash down a building. If you have to hit it hard to get a spark, you=92ve got either a lousy striker or a dull flint. Band-Aids may be called for until you get a feel for the proper technique. Keep it up until you get a spark to catch on the char. If you have good equipment and Monk=92s cloth, only one or two whacks will be needed. You can see a small orange glow in the char where the spark has lodged. This glow may only be obvious in the dark unless you shade the cloth. If you can=92t see it and burn your thumb, it=92s lit.. 2. Blow it into flame Blow on it gently to sprea This can cause a massive blowing fit, d the fire and at the same time grab a handful of the tinder you=92ve already made up into a bird=92s nest about the size of a baseball. Tuck the glowing char down into the center of the birdsnest, pinch the birdsnest closed using your thumb and forefinger to compress it around the char cloth, raise it above your head slightly with your back to the wind, and gently blow on it. If your lungs empty, and no flames are in sight, turn your head to 90 degrees, grab a breath of fresh air, and resume blowing. You keep the nest above your head, plus turn it 90 degrees to keep from sucking the unlit smoke back in your lungs, which is detrimental to your Mt. Man image. 3. Starting the Fire When the flames suddenly erupt, drop the birdsnest into your firepit, add the kindling, and gently nurse the blaze into a full conflagration by adding slightly larger pieces of wood to the fire. Make up a pot of coffee, and invite the booshway over. He may not be impressed with your first-ever flint and steel fire, but he always appreciates a pot of coffee. =46irebows I=92ll be the first to admit this is not one of my areas of great expertise. But I have used a couple of systems, and have started a hundred or so fires this way, mainly for the benefit of the public. Roy Parker We've all heared that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks = to the internet, we know this is not true. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 00:02:03 EDT Wrong. It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two are struck together. It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the fire steel, shaved off by the rock. However, not all rocks and steel will spark together. That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we don't necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel. Only high carbon steel will spark, to my knowledge. However, several, different kinds of rock will create a spark, when struck with the right steel. One is no good without the other. So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that much detail. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 23:07:13 -0500 Roy What is the price guide for? Send it along if it isn't painful. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 10:46 PM On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700, you wrote: >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of = flint >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have = been >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I = get a >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. = I >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing = it >the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out = the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I = can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > > Never have had time to finish this darn thing.... This is from March, 1998......just wanted to show Dean I still lurk a lot around here, but don't post much any more. BTW, if anyone wants the pics of the New Orleans price guide from 1831, I finally figured out how to send them in a painless fashion. Several people have asked for this information recently. The following is a reprint of an article I posted in early October. The finished article was lost in a hard disk crash around Thanksgiving, and I have not recreated it. This is based on several years of experience, and an exchange on the Usenet group soc.history.living with several folks who also frequent this mailing list. Scott, see if you can find your own words in this! I'm sorry, but the article is NOT complete. If you've never made a flint and steel fire before, here's the gist of it. The following is a DRAFT copy. The actual article is only about half done. I'm retaining the copyright for this article, since I hope to have it published for profit and make millions of dollars when Steven Spielberg turns this into a major movie.. The final article had all the contributors listed. I don't have them here, but pulled all the 1996-1997 exchanges off of Deja News by doing a search for "fire starting". When I rewrite this, full credit to all contributors will be given, especially for the info on charwood. The article needs a lot of wordsmithing. I have not done much except spell check it, so it is obviously not ready to go yet. =20 ---------------------------- There's a lot of ways to start fires. I'm going to cover techniques I've used off and on over the last 19 years. I'll also cover a few techniques that I do NOT have a lot of experience with, but other folks do I'll be straight with you when I report on something someone else recommends, but I've only experimented with. If I don't like the method, I'll tell you, but understand it may be because I don't have the technique down due to enough experimentation. Try it yourself. =20 We're going to cover charcloth making, striker selection, flint selection, proper tinder and then tie all this together into proper flint and steel firestarting. Char is usually made from cloth, but several people I corresponded with have used different natural materials. This will be covered later on. We'll also cover how to select and use a firebow, how to use your shootin' iron as a fire starter, char wood making and use, the burning lens (aka magnifying glass), and we'll end it with what I diplomatically call "shortcut" (others may call it cheating) techniques some scum-sucking weasles use to get an edge on the competition, just so you have an idea of what to look out for. Charcloth Making Forget all the stuff they told you in Boy Scouts about using dryer lint, picking up a rock and striking sparks, or rubbing two sticks together. It's hogwash. If you follow the recommendations in this article, make a batch or two of charcloth so you can see what is "good" versus "bad" select a flint as described, and have a good striker, you'll have flame in less than 15 seconds almost every time you try. My personal best at fire starting is 8.1 seconds, and that took third place.=20 Char is important because you need some material that will catch the sparks from your striker. You can have a marvelous striker and flint, and chuck sparks into dryer lint until the cows come home. And they come home about the time you have a spark catch in the dryer lint. =20 The reason you char cloth is to essentially turn it into pure carbon, kinda like a super charcoal briquette. You want a material that chars well, and has a lot of surface roughness to hold the spark from the striker until it can ignite the cloth. Dryer lint, et. al, has a much higher combustion temperature to keep a coal glowing than does char cloth. That's why it is so hard to start a fire this way. Good char cloth will grab a spark as soon as it hits. Start with 100 percent cotton or linen fabric. Make absolutely sure there are no synthetics. These will melt and burn and leave a fire-proof coating over what remains of the fabric. It also makes an awful mess of your char tin. Wool has its own fire retardant. Lore has it that you can't make char cloth out of wool, and I always believed it until I sat down to write these lines. I've always accepted that wool won't work, but you know, I have never tired it. I will have to take a shot at it next time I make up a batch of char. I've heard that using cloth with patterns makes inferior char cloth. In my experience, it doesn't seem to matter. New fabric such as left overs from shirt making need to be washed several times before you char them. Most material like this contains a something called a sizing, which is fine clay impregnated in the cloth to make it smoother and easier to cut for patterns. You can make char cloth from it, but the sizing leaves a bit more ash in the tin, and sometimes keeps a spark for catching as it seems to have to burn through the sizing first. Pure canvas from the sewing store works pretty good after being well washed. Flannel works well too if you make sure you do NOT get the flame-retardant kind. All of these things will work. To make char cloth you can't put out without water, you have to use a special type of cloth. Forget about blue jeans, cotton scraps, flannel, canvas, etc. The best stuff I have ever found for char cloth is called Monk's Cloth (available at almost any sewing center, at least here in Texas). It has 5-9 threads in the warp and the woof (?) (these are sewing terms I really don't understand, but it means the top layer weaves in and out of the bottom layer {going sideways of course} kinda like the plastic webbing you have on your aluminum framed lawn chairs, except this is all cotton, and is a lot thinner weave. Monks cloth looks a lot like a coarser weave of the gauze you'd find in a first aid kit. For those of you who are wondering, I've tried using gauze for char also. It crumbles too easily compared to the Monk's cloth for my taste, but catches a spark immediately. If I ever get access to a scanner, I'll upload a picture to the web. How do you make char cloth? Easy. Get some 100% linen or cotton, or if you've been paying attention, get some Monk's cloth ( wash it once or twice first-a yard of this stuff will start hundreds of fires), cut it up into about inch and a half squares, no larger. When you have a decent handful of pieces, put them in your char tin. I fill my tin (one of the old, large shoe polish tins) so that the pile sticks out about three-eighths of an inch before putting the lid on. This compresses the cloth a little, but I've never noticed a problem . If you really stuff the tin full, you'll find a lot of the material in the center is not properly charred. A little compression is ok, a lot is bad. A char tin is nothing more than a small metal can that has a tight fitting metal lid. A shoe polish tin or a pint paint can works great. The pint paint can doubles as a container when making char wood. We'll cover that later. Clean out all residue from the previous inhabitant of the can before your start. The real secret is to have a very tight fitting lid, and to close it down tight after you put in the cloth. Next, take a small nail, about a one inch finishing nail and poke a hole in the lid. =20 Now, find a small twig and sharpen it until it plugs the hole you just punched in the top as tight as can be. Set the twig aside, as you won't need it for a while. Now toss the can, lid up on the fire. I've tried a bunch of different fires. Some work and some don't and I don't know why. Campfires seem to make the best char cloth. Set it on the edge of the coals, and plan 2-5 minutes a side for cooking. Good charcoal fires work about the same. I've tried this numerous times on my propane grill in the backyard, and on my coal forge, at both fast and slow heats, and never had any luck with making good char. My best guess is that even on 'slow' heat, it is still too much for propane and coal. Okay, you have your char tin heating on the fire. More and more smoke is coming out the tiny hole you made (that's why you made it!). The smoke smells really nasty. Drop a burning twig across the hole to ignite the smoke if you or your neighbors have a sensitive nose. When the smoke trail is almost gone, flip the can over in the fire, wait 1-2 minutes, and flip it back over. If there is no more smoke pull the can out of the fire, and IMMEDIATELY stick the twig into the hole on the top. The twig is to prevent pulling air back into the can as it cools down. =20 This is why it is nice to make char toward nightfall. If the can starts glowing red, it tells you that you do NOT have an airtight seal, and that air is being sucked back into the char tin, setting the char on fire....that's why the can is a dull red in color...it's hot. If this happens, toss the charcloth out and start over. I once needed to make some char at rendezvous and had stepped on the lid, so couldn't get a good seal. Rather than go borrow another tin, I tried making up a thick mud of clay, smeared that around the rim, put on the lid, added a bit more clay to the seam and tossed it in the fire. It worked like a charm. If the char is brown, or even has white spots, it was not on the fire long enough. Put it back in the can and cook it some more. You should see more smoke coming out the hole as you finish charring the cloth. If the char is brittle, it has been overcooked or still had the sizing left in the cloth. Leftover sizing often also leaves a shiny residue in the can. If it is brittle, throw it away and start over. Good char should be bend double without any cracking or crazing while being uniformly black in color. You should be able to bend it in half with no problems. If it can't do that, it is overcooked and makes inferior charcloth. Yep, it will still start fires, just not nearly as quickly. Assuming none of these bad things happened, congratulations! You've made your first char cloth! Now what? Selecting a Flint A lot of people think this is a no-brainer, but it is important. There are two things you want in a flint. The first is sharpness, and the second is hardness. A truly sharp flint is like a piece of broken glass. It is one molecule thick on the edge. No steel knife of any type can even begin to approach that sort of sharpness. Learn how to knap a flint for maximum sharpness. It makes a big difference in how strong a string of sparks you can toss from the steel. Some of the best flints I've ever had have been flakes and spalls left around after someone demonstrated arrowhead making. They're small and exceedingly sharp. Rule of thumb is that the darker the piece of flint, the harder it is. And the harder the piece of flint, the lower it dulls. But I've seen some awfully light colored flints throw some very impressive sparks. So I give sharpness the nod over the hardness of the flint. If you can find it, get a chunk of red jasper. Some parts of the country it is easy to come by, and others quite difficult. Here in Houston, where we're 100 miles or more from the nearest rock at ground level, I cruise gravel parking lots. Much of the gravel we get is flint, and there always seems to be a piece or two of red jasper. Red jasper is 2-3 times as hard as flint, and if sharp will really throw some truly awesome sparks that can still sizzle when they hit the ground.=20 Selecting a Striker There are two types of strikers. Good ones and bad ones. Initially, it can be hard to tell the difference. The best place to get a GOOD striker is at rendezvous from the smith who made it. If you buy it from someone other than the blacksmith who made it, test it out for 10-15 minutes. Rule of thumb is that you should be able to hold the striker at waist level, strike it with the flint, and have sparks burning at the top of your moccasins. When you find a striker that does this, keep striking for about 15 minutes. Some of the strikers available have only a case hardening. Those sparks you see are little bits of burning metal cut off by the flint (see why we want a sharp flint?) and ignited by the friction of the flint hitting the striker.. If you only have a case hardness on the steel the metal is hard for only 2-3 thousands of an inch, and after 10 or so minutes of striking, suddenly quit giving off a spark. You've used up the hardness, and the striker is worthless. You'll pay a few bucks more getting a striker from the original smith, but you'll also get a lifetime guarantee, most likely. Make sure the striking face is smooth. If it is made from a file, make sure that there are no file marks left on the face of the striker, or near the edges where a flint can hit. Catching one of these defects can snap the striker in half, as it forces it to break along a fault line. Tinder Tinder is made out of dead plants, the finer the better. There's a lot of good material out there. Dead grasses rolled through the hands until they become fibers, tow used in taxidermy (the leftovers from the flax plant when the linen is removed), hay, pine needles, cedar bark ground up finely by hand and allowed to dry. You want to keep it fine, but not turn it into a powder. Tinder is the stuff that will take the glowing coal from you char cloth and suddenly burst into flame for building your fire. Get the deadest, driest stuff you can find, dry it some more, and then keep it dry! Making a Fire by Flint and Steel Okay, you now have good charcloth, a good flint, a good steel and some tinder. How do we go about turning this into a conflagration? No problem. First of all, you're going to split up some kindling. Then you're going to follow the three (3) steps below EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. Once you get these three steps down pay, you can start experimenting to improve your speed. The tender you have will burn for only a few seconds, so you have to get some larger stuff burning during that time. Start by getting some dry wood split into pieces about the size of match sticks, and gradually progressing until you are adding pieces about a half to inch in diameter. At that point there is no way the fire is going out unless the heavens open up. We're not going to get into types of fires. I like a tipi style, other like some of the many others. Use what works for you. 1. Strike the spark. If you're right-handed, hold the steel in your left hand. Hold the flint/jasper level in your right with 2-3 pieces of char on top of the rock. The sharp edge of the flint must point to yor right.Use your thumb to keep the char from slipping off and position it so that the char is even with the striking edge of the flint. Use the steel to whack the flint in a rather gentle motion. You're trying to shave off tiny pieces of burning metal with the flint, not bash down a building. If you have to hit it hard to get a spark, you've got either a lousy striker or a dull flint. Band-Aids may be called for until you get a feel for the proper technique. Keep it up until you get a spark to catch on the char. If you have good equipment and Monk's cloth, only one or two whacks will be needed. You can see a small orange glow in the char where the spark has lodged. This glow may only be obvious in the dark unless you shade the cloth. If you can't see it and burn your thumb, it's lit.. 2. Blow it into flame Blow on it gently to sprea This can cause a massive blowing fit, d the fire and at the same time grab a handful of the tinder you've already made up into a bird's nest about the size of a baseball. Tuck the glowing char down into the center of the birdsnest, pinch the birdsnest closed using your thumb and forefinger to compress it around the char cloth, raise it above your head slightly with your back to the wind, and gently blow on it. If your lungs empty, and no flames are in sight, turn your head to 90 degrees, grab a breath of fresh air, and resume blowing. You keep the nest above your head, plus turn it 90 degrees to keep from sucking the unlit smoke back in your lungs, which is detrimental to your Mt. Man image. 3. Starting the Fire When the flames suddenly erupt, drop the birdsnest into your firepit, add the kindling, and gently nurse the blaze into a full conflagration by adding slightly larger pieces of wood to the fire. Make up a pot of coffee, and invite the booshway over. He may not be impressed with your first-ever flint and steel fire, but he always appreciates a pot of coffee. Firebows I'll be the first to admit this is not one of my areas of great expertise. But I have used a couple of systems, and have started a hundred or so fires this way, mainly for the benefit of the public. Roy Parker We've all heared that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks = to the internet, we know this is not true. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 23:36:26 -0500 Wrong?? Nothing I said was wrong. Do you think the rock sparks? Or = that the spark is spontaneously created when the steel and the rock are = struck together? The sparks come from the steel, not the rock, every time. A poor steel = and/or a poor rock will not create many sparks, as you say. A sharp = flint and a good steel can be used to produce sparks in quantity, and = this is the common way to strike fire. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:02 PM > Wrong. It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two = are=20 > struck together. It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the = fire=20 > steel, shaved off by the rock. However, not all rocks and steel will = spark=20 > together. That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we = don't=20 > necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel. Only high = carbon=20 > steel will spark, to my knowledge. However, several, different kinds = of rock=20 > will create a spark, when struck with the right steel. One is no = good=20 > without the other. So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that = much=20 > detail.=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 09:06:10 -0400 On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700 "Munroe Crutchley" writes: > Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! Munroe Crutchley a flint can be resharpened on ocasions and using the sharpest edge is normally the best---when you strike the steel with your flint it should be a glancing blow just like hitting a flint hammer to a frizzen---what you are doing is shaving off some of the metal in the steel that is where the sparks come from. the way you were talking in your posting I would assume that you may have some soft and hard spots in your steel---most of the guys that have a good fire steel guard them with their life and will use them for a lifetime---everyone likes a certain type of steel as far as shape goes and there are many choices you can make from the forged steel which it sounds like you have---forged steels are sometimes only tempered on the outside and loose their temper---if not done properly as you use it unless the smith was a good one and knew his tempering- I have a steel that was given me by fred printice when i first started skinning back in the early 60's and it is the proper size for my firebox and feels good to me and always gives consistant spark no matter if i use flint or chert or other hard rock---the black english flint chips do the best with it and the sparks will crackel when you hit it a lick with the flint---it is made out of a old used up and rusty horse rasp---with the rough large surfaces ground off a bit so that it will still have a good gripping surface and the edges are ground smooth---the smooth edge is what i strike the flint on or the thinner surface---the rasp was broken into pieces about 4 inches long and it is about 1 1/2 in wide and about 1/4 in thick----all that was done to it was the grinding and it sparks like hell---"there was no tempering involved"---it has temper thru and thru---it has never been retempered or has gone soft and has had the hell used out of it. when i strike the steel it is at a glancing blow of about 10 to 15 degrees and not a banging motion---remember the flint must cut off small minute slivers of the steel each time it is struck that is where the sparks come from--- I have seen people strike the steel to the flint and the flint to the steel ---basicly it is what is comfortable to you and gets the job done---back about a year ago one of the guys posted a article on fire making and went thru the whole process about 6 or seven pages of good information---look in the arcives and see if you can find the posting---it even gives a good and full explination of making char---with a good steel and good char you should be able to have a blaze in less than 10 seconds--one strike with the flint and steel and one blow---I have been to a lot of matches and posted a lot of flint and steel fire times under 5 seconds---from first strike to visible flame--- you might want to case harden the steel that you are using it might help or on the other hand if it is a real low carbon steel then it will loose all its spark and you have to start at SQUARE 1----try making your own steel from a old file and grinding the edges smooth can find lots of old big files at garege sales and in junk stores break it with a hammer and grind smooth to fit ----have seen several people who work in a machine shop take the files and put them on the surface grinder and smooth them out and they make excelent fire steels---have a small one about 2 inched by 1 1/4 by 3/16 that i carry in my shooting bag all the time use for fire making on the treck and for knapping stuborn flints with hard spots in them.. keep making the sparks fly and as you play you will learn what is best for you---REMEMBER A GOOD STEEL IS A TREASURED THING--- YMHOSANT "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 08 Jul 1999 09:30:12 -0400 >We Don't advertise. > >Snakeshot #1593 > the quite professionals---sometimes its difficult to carry a pilgram thru to acceptance---I like to know the guy inside and outside and know his metal before i ask him it took me about 3 years to get my sponcers to ask me if i wanted to join---nuff said--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 09:23:05 -0400 good posting john K. on the fire starting cant emphasise the technique too much as well as practice---it must be done in a way that it is comfortable and natural to you---used some of your finish last week it still works great---going to have to get some more soon---probably my next trip west will drop by and pick some up---best to you--- YMHOSANT "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caren Rago Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 10:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Actually the reason for good sparks from steel and rocks over poor sparks is due to the carbon in the steel or rocks. Low carbon values usually end up in very poor sparks thats why you can have a good steel and poor flint/chert or a poor steel with good flint/chert and get lousy results. I have found that files made in the USA spark great where files from china and korea suck. Now after you get your file and if you want to make a trad. striker you heat, pound and bend until you get the shape and then it needs to be tempered. I just spent the weekend alongside a very informative blacksmith at a rendezvous who explained and showed me how to do this. He also explained the properties of the metal and why today we can not make horse shoes and knives throw sparks. I carry a piece of flint in my pocket and while at flea markets and yard sales I always use it to see if I can get sparks from a variety of old files and tools. You would be amazed at what throws sparks and what does not. For instance I was in the back yard and picked up a piece of granite and wow did it throw sparks with the flint. I will be trying to start a fire with it one day to see if it works. Just my two cents Frank V. Rago At 11:36 PM 7/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >Wrong?? Nothing I said was wrong. Do you think the rock sparks? Or that the spark is spontaneously created when the steel and the rock are struck together? >The sparks come from the steel, not the rock, every time. A poor steel and/or a poor rock will not create many sparks, as you say. A sharp flint and a good steel can be used to produce sparks in quantity, and this is the common way to strike fire. >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:02 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel > > >> Wrong. It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two are >> struck together. It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the fire >> steel, shaved off by the rock. However, not all rocks and steel will spark >> together. That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we don't >> necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel. Only high carbon >> steel will spark, to my knowledge. However, several, different kinds of rock >> will create a spark, when struck with the right steel. One is no good >> without the other. So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that much >> detail. >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 12:50:08 EDT In a message dated 7/7/99 5:27:03 PM EST, KC764@aol.com writes: << Then, place the glowing cloth in the middle of your "nest", blow on it until it bursts into flame >> If you value your facial hair, nose hair, eyes etc. Don't hold the nest below your face and blow. I have seen far to many successful fire starters in competions have the nest flare up beautifuly in their face. Hold it in front of your face not below and down wind is not a bad idea either. If you have to blow on it below your face try using your turkey bone turkey call as a blow tube which works great and gets your face back out of burn distance. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Nationals Date: 08 Jul 1999 13:03:45 EDT Hello all, What a great pleasure it was to have attended the AMM National Rendezvous for the first time. The location was fantastic although had hoped we could have had a view of the Tetons from camp. I think the single greatest impression I have is the camaraderie and friendship displayed by all. Eventhough this was my first National with the AMM, it seemed that just by virtue of being there I was accepted as a brother by all. A heartfelt thanks to you good brothers. I was able to meet many friends from this list. Among them were Capt Lahti, with whom I had the pleasure of studying tracking, Terry Landis, Lanney Ratcliff, Pat Quilter, Don and Phyllis Keas, Jerry Zaslow and Paul Jones. I was able to spend some time with Dean Rudy discussing things before he had to leave. Even had the honor of having Hiverano #1, ole Walt Hayward camped nearby. It was enjoyable spending some time around the fire with him as he reminisced. The colleges were great. I didn't make it to all of them, but I did get in on Winter Camping, Snow Shoe making, Tracking, Horse packing, and Trap making. Another of the highlights was the Buffalo butchering. Inspite of how long it took the poor crittur to die, once he did Rod Douglas, Wes Housler and Doc Ivory (what's his real name?) went to town and had him skinned and butchered in about one hour. Them boys know how to do it right. A hearty chaw of fresh liver with a dose of bile capped off the event. Truly shinin times in the Rocky Mountains! WAUGH!!!! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Weather - this time of the year. Date: 08 Jul 1999 11:05:25 -0700 Hello Camp Just got off the phone with old friend Peter Gobel of "Goose Bay Workshops", seems he has had bad luck again in VA. He had his house "nailed" by a thunder strom a few years ago, did much damage. On July 3rd of this year his shop had the same experience, blow a 2' hole in the roof, split the back of the building, knocked bricks out of the fireplace and fried most of the electrical equipment. While we were talking the insurance people showed up, will let you know the results later. While thinking of Peter's problem, we should think about bad weather when out and about doing our historical events, this could be seriuos if in the wrong place at the right time. The members of this list may enjoy what the weather brought to our forefathers living in St. Louis and surrounding area at the time of the Fur Trade. BAD WEATHER “Suddenly the weather turns bad! Thundershowers, lighting, the sun is blotted out! And there is nothing we can do to warn or prevent this act of mother nature.” These headlines appeared in the St. Louis Messenger on July 27,1837. Then the article goes on about, “the terrible heat wave and drought of 1833-1834 and how the earth was parched, creeks turned into dry rock beds and crops burned in the fields. During the drought the temperature hovered near 100-degrees for the entire growing season and questioned how some families made it with available food supplies! ” This was of coarse, extreme weather seldom seen in the Illinois country, but the threat of changes like this and an earlier period in 1816 had people talking of building food supplies like natures animals do every year. The start of storing grain and other field products was born. Lets get back to the 1816 weather change, reported in Harper’s Magazine, of that following year, “ Both January and February of 1816 were warm and springlike, so much so that settlers let their fireplaces die. The cold started in March, with each day windy and blustery. Despite the weather, spring crops were planted, with vegetation well under way by April when unusual cold moved in. Snow or sleet fell for 17 different days in May, killing the fruit trees. June saw frost and snow for all but 3 days, it lasted through July. August was worse, with ice coating the fields, vegetation was gone, wildlife had moved to distant lands and panic felled upon the people.” This strange change in the weather was caused by a volanco thousands of miles away, that sent so much ash into the heavens it changed lives around the world and was not found out until a few years later. (Several others have written of this unusual condition in North America in later years, Sunshine and Life magazines did several articles in the early 1900’s.) The oldtimers had several weather signs they used, “when cows lie down in the pasture - expect rain”, “spiderwebs on the morning grass with dew - expect rain”, “if birds build their nests close to the trunk - expect a rainy summer - if nests are built low - expect high winds” or “frogs croaking in early spring - expect rain”. Ben Franklin had several similar sayings, as did Thomas Jefferson both interested in growing edibles. These pioneers, as others that followed had weather saying for each cloud formation, wind from different compass points or anything of unsual conditions. In 1839 the Messenger reported, “ We’re predicting the weather more accurately than in the past, but its not harnessed and earthquakes, hurricanes and tornado could happen at anytime.” Dwelling on such predictions, was considered in bad taste, it could raise our blood level far too high! With the changes in the weather, in the same area in the last few years, things haven’t improved that much with some of the experts reportings! Barry Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. ________________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 13:48:39 -0500 At 10:22 AM 7/8/99 -0400, Frank V. Rago wrote: >For >instance I was in the back yard and picked up a piece of granite and wow= did >it throw sparks with the flint.=A0 I will be trying to start a fire with= it >one day to see if it works. > Before fire steels there were fire rocks. Bow drills, hand drills, and lightning weren't the only older ways. It is as readily done today as in pre-history. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Weather - this time of the year. Date: 08 Jul 1999 16:48:51 EDT Buck, Had the great pleasure of meeting two fine fellows from the Baker party at the National. Jim Sebastian and Mike Moore. Two first class men who welcomed us into their camp the night before we arrived at the rendezvous site. They fed us Buffalo loin ans shared a warm fire. Nice to meet fellow trappers on the trail. Give em my best! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #322 Date: 08 Jul 1999 17:15:15 -0500 > > > >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint > >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been > >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a > >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I > >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; For information on fire starting with flint and steel, as well as other assorted information, try this URL; http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/PleinAir/priskar2.htm This is the archived messages of an e-mail group, so there is allot of extraneous garbage, but you will find lots of gems of information if you dig long enough. J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 08 Jul 1999 16:26:14 -0700 Hawk, I believe that Bill Cunningham, Buck Conner and others in the AMM are pushing the "Tomahawk & Long Rifle" journal for interested parties to learn about this group, their values, etc. Something that was available but not advertised, Buck told me they would someday like to see them on the news-stand and advertised in other magazines. This would be a good starting point. Turtle. __________________________________________ > the quite professionals---sometimes its difficult to carry a pilgram thru to acceptance---I like to know the guy inside and outside and know his metal before i ask him it took me about 3 years to get my sponcers to ask me if i wanted to join---nuff said--- > > YMHOSANT > =+= > "Hawk" Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Weather - this time of the year. Date: 08 Jul 1999 16:29:31 -0700 Poor Gobel, Pete's wife is expecting a baby just shortley and now this, I'd move out of that location after getting hit two times in three years. Thanks Buck for the interesting history lesson on weather. Turtle. _____________________________ > On Thu, 08 July 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > Hello Camp > > Just got off the phone with old friend Peter Gobel of "Goose Bay Workshops", seems he has had bad luck again in VA. He had his house "nailed" by a thunder strom a few years ago, did much damage. On July 3rd of this year his shop had the same experience, blow a 2' hole in the roof, split the back of the building, knocked bricks out of the fireplace and fried most of the electrical equipment. While we were talking the insurance people showed up, will let you know the results later. > > While thinking of Peter's problem, we should think about bad weather when out and about doing our historical events, this could be seriuos if in the wrong place at the right time. > > The members of this list may enjoy what the weather brought to our forefathers living in St. Louis and surrounding area at the time of the Fur Trade. > > BAD WEATHER > “Suddenly the weather turns bad! Thundershowers, lighting, the sun is > blotted out! And there is nothing we can do to warn or prevent this act of mother nature.” These headlines appeared in the St. Louis Messenger on July > 27,1837. > > Then the article goes on about, “the terrible heat wave and drought of > 1833-1834 and how the earth was parched, creeks turned into dry rock beds and crops burned in the fields. During the drought the temperature hovered near 100-degrees for the entire growing season and questioned how some families made it with available food supplies! ” > > This was of coarse, extreme weather seldom seen in the Illinois country, but the threat of changes like this and an earlier period in 1816 had people talking of building food supplies like natures animals do every year. The start of storing grain and other field products was born. > > Lets get back to the 1816 weather change, reported in Harper’s Magazine, of that following year, “ Both January and February of 1816 were warm and springlike, so much so that settlers let their fireplaces die. The cold started in March, with each day windy and blustery. Despite the weather, spring crops were planted, with vegetation well under way by April when unusual cold moved in. Snow or sleet fell for 17 different days in May, killing the fruit trees. June saw frost and snow for all but 3 days, it lasted through July. > August was worse, with ice coating the fields, vegetation was gone, wildlife had moved to distant lands and panic felled upon the people.” This strange change in the weather was caused by a volanco thousands of miles away, that sent so much ash into the heavens it changed lives around the world and was not found out until a few years later. > > (Several others have written of this unusual condition in North America in later years, Sunshine and Life magazines did several articles in the early 1900’s.) > > The oldtimers had several weather signs they used, “when cows lie down in the pasture - expect rain”, “spiderwebs on the morning grass with dew - expect rain”, “if birds build their nests close to the trunk - expect a rainy summer - if nests are built low - expect high winds” or “frogs croaking in early spring - expect rain”. > > Ben Franklin had several similar sayings, as did Thomas Jefferson both interested in growing edibles. These pioneers, as others that followed had weather saying for each cloud formation, wind from different compass points or anything of unsual conditions. > > In 1839 the Messenger reported, “ We’re predicting the weather more > accurately than in the past, but its not harnessed and earthquakes, > hurricanes and tornado could happen at anytime.” > > Dwelling on such predictions, was considered in bad taste, it could raise our blood level far too high! > > With the changes in the weather, in the same area in the last few years, things haven’t improved that much with some of the experts reportings! > > Barry Conner > AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory > > ________________________________________________________ > Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle > 3483 Squires > Conklin, MI 49403 > ATTN: Jon Link > > The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. > ________________________________________________________ > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 08 Jul 1999 21:42:40 -0500 Files in the last twenty years have been manufactured from materials that differ from the older files. Jim Kelly, metallurgist at Rolled Alloys Corp. in Michigan, wrote an article for one of the blackpowder journals about fifteen years ago, called New Knives from Old Files. He explains the differences, as applied to knifemaking, of the alloy properties of newer files. I will enter this article into the Hist Text, if anyone wants it, or if the demand is there, I can copy it and mail out. It runs about six pages, and is a bit much for the list. Jim is a very practical metallurgist, and a blackpowder shooter. He is an amateur smith as well. Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Steel Strikers Date: 08 Jul 1999 22:37:32 -0400 (EDT) Any reason why they're not case hardened [i.e., carburized] to 10-20 thousandths ? Not possible with primitive methods ? Striker thickness (or lack of sufficient material) prevents it ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Munroe-Flint and Steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 21:51:19 -0700 Munroe, Do you know about Frog Holler Rendezvous, put on by the Fort Umpqua Muzzleloaders up near Oakridge? I went this year without my regular running buddy, and pretty quickly figured out my skills were way out of shape. I insisted on starting all my own fires, and brother, was the coffee ever late! I take it for granted that I have a skill once I know it, but, I'm here to tell you that you have to use it constantly to get any good. My only hints to add to the list is, try holding the tinder nest over your head, with the wind blowing through it, and then you blow too. That will help it catch. I also found that a properly hardened striker is your best friend. I can't tell by looking at it, but friends told me the steel I had was poor quality. I've since acquired a better one, but only by asking my friend the blacksmith to make sure it was a good 'un! Try asking around to folks who know steel and have them pick you out a good striker. By the way, Fort Umpqua Muzzleloaders has a great gun show in February in Eugene at the Lane County Fairgrounds (3rd weekend), and Frog Holler Rendezvous @ Hills Creek Reservoir in April (4th weekend). Frog's the best rondy on the west coast for us flatlanders: full primitive, canoe in, no tourists, no farby camps, and a great bunch of folks. Capt. Lahti will back me on that! :-) YMDS, Tassee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Moose-Moose and Ephraim???? Date: 08 Jul 1999 21:55:08 -0700 Terry and Roger, Iffen it's not tellin' any deep dark man secrets, why you callin' Terry Moose-Moose? And what's the deal with "Ephraim?" That latin for Bear? YMDS, Tassee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Brooks" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Files Date: 10 Jul 1999 08:27:50 +1200 Rock Wrote >Files in the last twenty years have been manufactured from materials >that differ from the older files. Jim Kelly, metallurgist at Rolled >if anyone wants it, or if the demand is there, I can copy it and mail >out. It runs about six pages, and is a bit much for the list. Rock, Would like to get a copy of that article . If you can either e.mail it to me or post in the archives I am cleaning out one of my sheds at the moment.,Have come across many files of my daddys and grand daddys and poss some from my Gt Grand Daddys...Your article may give me food for thought on what to do with some of them. Have never tried to make a knife but one day.. Kia Ora Big Bear In cool frosty Marlborough New Zealand. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 09 Jul 1999 05:49:55 -0700 Mike, Would be interested in seeing file information. Buck On Thu, 08 July 1999, Mike Rock wrote: > > Files in the last twenty years have been manufactured from materials > that differ from the older files. Jim Kelly, metallurgist at Rolled > Alloys Corp. in Michigan, wrote an article for one of the blackpowder > journals about fifteen years ago, called New Knives from Old Files. He > explains the differences, as applied to knifemaking, of the alloy > properties of newer files. I will enter this article into the Hist Text, > if anyone wants it, or if the demand is there, I can copy it and mail > out. It runs about six pages, and is a bit much for the list. > Jim is a very practical metallurgist, and a blackpowder shooter. He is > an amateur smith as well. > > Rock Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Nationals Date: 05 Sep 1999 14:26:40 +0000 Todd: I enjoyed reading your post on the AMM Nationals. Driving back across the country from Wyoming to Atlanta, I thought long and hard about how I would phrase my "thank you" for the opportunity to attend the Nationals as a guest. It is hard to put into words the effect the experience had on me, but I will do my best. You might want to print this out instead of reading on-screen, because I may go on a bit. First of all, Narcissa Whitman could not have felt more welcomed than I. The hospitality and courteousness I was afforded by the AMM Brothers could not have made me feel more at home. Hiverano #1 Walt Hayward addressed all the women in attendance as his sisters, and invited them to call him, Brother. Many times on the "list" I have heard cries for equality -- give me family over equality any day. Some of you know that I found my way to your "list" as I researched a novel I have just completed (No, it is not the Mormon-related novel on-line!). The novel is historical fiction involving Osborne Russell and the Rendezvous of 1838. Four years ago when I began writing I found a quote by Thoreau and posted it in my kitchen, at work, and by my computer. "If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. He will put some things behind, will pass an invisible boundary; new, universal, and more liberal laws will begin to establish themselves around and within him; or the old laws will be expanded, and interpreted in his favor in a more liberal sense, and he will live with the license of a higher order of beings. If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." For the past four years I have concentrated on putting the foundations under my castles, and had neglected the rest of Thoreau's poem. But when I drove up Gros Ventre Road to Dry Cottonwood Creek and entered the AMM encampment, I passed the invisible boundary Thoreau described. For several years I have camped at Crystal Creek Campground, 17 miles before the 1999 Rendezvous site, while researching and writing my book. One of my character's meets Osborne Russell within three miles of this year's encampment. After all the book-learning, the research, the questions asked, walking into the AMM Nationals was as close as humanly possible for me to go back in time and sit by the fire with Bridger, Carson, Meek, Dripps, and Russell. It is an experience I will never forget, and I will share whenever the opportunity presents itself. Thoreau wrote another poem from "Dead Poet's Society." Its title is unknown, but it seems to fit each of you Brothers. "I went to the woods because I wanted to live deliberately. I wanted to live deep and suck all the marrow of life! To put to rout all that was not life, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived." Thank you again, for the best, damn time of my life. Respectfully submitted, Laura Glise ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 09 Jul 1999 10:53:21 -0400 in the early stages of the publication I remember when the guy that was publishing it didnt have enough money to pay theprinting and postage to ship it and would send notes to the brothers requesting donations in order to keep it afloat---and they have done a hell of a fine job ---always have good info glad to see that it is going out to others that are not members--this additional number will will help with the costs of printing and publication. We even took up a collection at Oka Valley one year and had the famous goat and pig shoot sponsered by the imfamous "Dale Black" and papy horn--- the goat and pig was alive in the bed of dales truck and were turned loose on the range 120 ac for the guys to collect their own prize---dont know where the goat and pig went to this day----????????---for sure that is??? "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On 8 Jul 1999 16:26:14 -0700 writes: >Hawk, > I believe that Bill Cunningham, Buck Conner and others in the AMM >are pushing the "Tomahawk & Long Rifle" journal for interested parties >to learn about this group, their values, etc. > Something that was available but not advertised, Buck told me they >would someday like to see them on the news-stand and advertised in >other magazines. This would be a good starting point. > Turtle. >__________________________________________ >> the quite professionals---sometimes its difficult to carry a pilgram >thru to acceptance---I like to know the guy inside and outside and >know his metal before i ask him it took me about 3 years to get my >sponcers to ask me if i wanted to join---nuff said--- >> >> YMHOSANT >> =+= >> "Hawk" > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account >http://www.uswestmail.net > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 09 Jul 1999 12:26:17 -0400 rock would like a copy of the article on files either hardcopy or electronic---if electronic please send it to alpega@aol.com---my juno account does not allow attachments--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steel Strikers Date: 09 Jul 1999 13:13:29 EDT In a message dated 99-07-08 22:38:24 EDT, you write: << Any reason why they're not case hardened [i.e., carburized] to 10-20 thousandths ? Not possible with primitive methods ? Striker thickness (or lack of sufficient material) prevents it ? >> Case hardning would work, but the steel would "wear out" -- i.e. the "case" would wear through or get gouged out & quit sparking. The best steels are made of good high carbon steel like files, springs, drill rod, but there you have to watch it -- the new "M2" alloy doesn't work as well as the older "water hardning" drill rod. You could even use car axels, gears, & king pins from the older or big trucks, but it'd take a lot of hammering!! Also -- I've noticen in the various posts on the "flint & steel thread", most of us hit the "rock" with the steel & (oh rats, can't remember who started this) the "new fire starter" said he hit the steel with the rock. BOTH ways work. I sometimes think it's easier to "aim" the sparks by striking the steel with the flint, but I seem to have my best luck with striking the flint with the steel. Gotta watch the knuckles though. Which ever way you get used to will work. John mentioned "fire rocks" & someone else mentioned a piece of granite that sparked on his flint. Around here, we sometimes find iron pyrite ("fool's gold") & some of that will spark. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 09 Jul 1999 16:23:03 -0700 We had the same problem for years with the Colorado State Muzzle Loading Association, I was editor and we did bi-monthly publications, one member worked for a big company and would do the printing at night on the "qt" and I would pay for the mailing of up to 1000 bulk rate mailings. Then wait until we had our yearly "State Shoot" to collect the owed funds, the next two issues where covered then back to the old game plan - it took 3-4 years of under the table publishing before we got on our feet. Granted additional sales in over the counter and subscriptions, along with paid advertising would be of great help. Several that I have talked to are interested in advertising if the journal is available to the public - thats good business for everyone. Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. ________________________________________________________ > On Fri, 09 July 1999, Michael Pierce wrote: > in the early stages of the publication I remember when the guy that > was publishing it didnt have enough money to pay theprinting and > postage to ship it and would send notes to the brothers requesting > donations in order to keep it afloat---and they have done a hell of > a fine job ---always have good info glad to see that it is going > out to others that are not members--this additional number will > will help with the costs of printing and publication. > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Black Bear Confrontation Date: 09 Jul 1999 23:28:23 -0400 (EDT) There was one in Michigan about a year ago - made the local outdoors programs on channel 56. The guy that went eyeball to eyeball with the animal (for about one agonizing hour) also happened to have a video camera with him at the time. Several times the bear would try to work his way in on him and each time he would shout out of the blood of his heart !!!GET OUT A HERE BEAR!!! - !!!BEAR GET OUT A HERE!!! Needless to say, the guy was scared s---less (who wouldn't be?), but to his credit he didn't panic and kept his head (didn't run). He eventually joined up with his fishing buddy (also his brother, if remember it correctly). Coincidentally, a wild cougar (confirmed sighting) is currenly loose in upper Macomb County. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Black Bear Confrontation Date: 09 Jul 1999 22:43:19 -0500 The encounter with that bear probably aged that fellow plumb to social = security age. Jee-Zus!! =20 Cougars are making a comeback where they have been absent for decades. = A friend of mine shot a big one in Bosque county, Texas about 4 years = ago. Bosque county is only two counties south of Ft Worth and is the = adjacent county to mine. The cat was taken maybe 60 miles southwest of = a metropolitian area of 4 million. A medium sized cougar (presumably a = released or escaped pet) was captured in the alley about two blocks from = my house about 5 years ago. The neighbors said that they couldn't kick = their dogs out of the house at night for weeks before the dog pound guys = caught it. Above and beyond the call of duty if you ask me. However, the most dangereous critters in most woods are the ones that = walk on two legs. Be careful...always. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 10:28 PM > There was one in Michigan about a year ago - made the local outdoors > programs on channel 56. The guy that went eyeball to eyeball with the > animal (for about one agonizing hour) also happened to have a video > camera with him at the time. Several times the bear would try to work > his way in on him and each time he would shout out of the blood of his > heart !!!GET OUT A HERE BEAR!!! - !!!BEAR GET OUT A HERE!!! Needless = to > say, the guy was scared s---less (who wouldn't be?), but to his credit > he didn't panic and kept his head (didn't run). He eventually joined = up > with his fishing buddy (also his brother, if remember it correctly). > Coincidentally, a wild cougar (confirmed sighting) is currenly loose = in > upper Macomb County. >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Black Bear Confrontation Date: 10 Jul 1999 11:41:51 EDT > There was one in Michigan about a year ago. The guy that went eyeball to eyeball with the > animal (for about one agonizing hour). Several times the bear would try to work > his way in on him and each time I'm sure everyone has their bear stories, but while you have to remain vigilant, they usually don't amount to anything. I used to canoe trek in Quetico for many years back in the early 70's. Always in the early spring just after ice-out. We invariably ran into bears every year. They were hungry, were drawn to campfires like a magnet, and often had cubs. One year, after 40 miles of hard paddling and portaging, we cooked supper on a sand bar, and just flipped the canoe over and crawled under it instead of setting up camp. Two cubs got around us, so that the cubs were on the sandbar, then us, then the sow in the treeline. No guns allowed in Quetico. We threw the canoe straight up and against the trees. The noise scared the bejesus out of the cubs and they went squalling to Mom. We were prepared to swim for it though and had our hatchets ready. Another time, we pulled into shore for the evening and were just unloading the canoe. A bear snuck in behind our backs and made off with our food pack. I happened to see it about 40 yards away snarfing down all our food. I went after it with a canoe paddle, scared it off, and got the slimy, smelly pack back. There was very little to salvage, and we lived off the land for the next three days. Out of 6, 14 day treks, we ran into bears every time. In all the others, we had the time to stow our food up a bear line, and they passed uneventfully. These were all free range bears, not garbage dump bears, so they were probably more skittish. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bvannoy Subject: MtMan-List: Thank you(s) Date: 10 Jul 1999 19:14:27 -0500 To all involved with the Eagle Scout Badge: In case my husband (Chases Hawks) didn't say so himself, here is a heartfelt "thank you right back" for all the heartwarming letters we received from Barney's family and relatives. It was wonderful to be included; glad to have been of help. If C.H. were to meet any of you in person, I'm sure he'd just say "Aw shucks", or something the equivalant thereof. Yours Truly, Badger Woman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #324 Date: 10 Jul 1999 23:32:03 -0500 > >Files in the last twenty years have been manufactured from materials > >that differ from the older files. Jim Kelly, metallurgist at Rolled > > >if anyone wants it, or if the demand is there, I can copy it and mail > >out. It runs about six pages, and is a bit much for the list. > > Would like to get a copy of that article . Thanks J.D. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bvannoy Subject: MtMan-List: Thank you(s) Date: 10 Jul 1999 19:14:27 -0500 To all involved with the Eagle Scout Badge: In case my husband (Chases Hawks) didn't say so himself, here is a heartfelt "thank you right back" for all the heartwarming letters we received from Barney's family and relatives. It was wonderful to be included; glad to have been of help. If C.H. were to meet any of you in person, I'm sure he'd just say "Aw shucks", or something the equivalant thereof. Yours Truly, Badger Woman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: strikers Date: 10 Jul 1999 23:46:08 -0500 > >Any reason why they're not case hardened [i.e., carburized] to 10-20 > >thousandths ? Not possible with primitive methods ? > >Striker thickness (or lack of sufficient material) prevents it ? > The longer the striker, or other part is heated in the case hardening compound, the deeper the case. In the old days some smiths made their own blister steel by "cooking" wrought iron in charred bone meal and charred leather in a sealed metal box until the case hardening penetrated to the center of the iron billet. Thin case hardening, anything less than .010-.015, is plain laziness on the part of the person doing the work, the result of someone who doesn't know what they are doing, or the product of a cheap manufacturer. J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 11 Jul 1999 11:16:37 -0500 The best sparks come from the highest carbon steel that is hardened to the maximum. However, this combination also results in the maximum number of broken steels. Hardening high carbon steel by heating to a bright red and then water quenching makes the steel almost as brittleness as glass. Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it harder, it makes it softer! Tempering steel is removing some of the hardness to make the steel less brittle. So the smith has to come up with a compromise of the best tradeoff of hardness with acceptable strength of the steel. There are many recipes for this, and I make steels with a very hard striking face, but the inside edge of the steel is tempered for strength. Also, I have observed the comedy of many novices striking the steel with the flint, repeating very quickly. When they don't get many sparks, they speed up the process. It's more important to get the right force and angle not how many times you repeat. The winners of fire starting competitions rarely hit the steel (or flint) more than a couple of times. Finally, to completely beat this subject to death, be mindful of the proximity of your knuckles when you strike that sharp flint. I just counted four scars on the middle knuckles of my left hand, which I suspect were flint-induced. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---Original Message----- >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing it >the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 11 Jul 1999 11:36:05 -0500 The best sparks come from the highest carbon steel that is hardened to the maximum. However, this combination also results in the maximum number of broken steels. Hardening high carbon steel by heating to orange and then water quenching makes the steel almost as brittleness as glass. Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it harder, it makes it softer! Tempering steel is removing some of the hardness to make the steel less brittle. So the smith must compromise hardness with acceptable strength of the steel. There are many recipes for this, and I make steels with a very hard striking face, but the inside edge of the steel is tempered for strength. Case hardening (carburizing) to any depth is a daunting proposition. The steel is packed in an air-tight container packed with a mixture of types of carbon. Then the container must be maintained at a red-hot or hotter temperature for hours. Maybe three hours at orange temperature or 6 to 12 hours at red hot will result in maybe a 1/32 inch skin of high carbon steel. When hardened, this would result in a good combination of hardness and strength, but the time, expense, and effort would b ehigh. With the relatively low cost of high carbon steels, most smiths forego case hardening except in the cases where a very thin layer will suffice. Also, I have observed the comedy of many novices striking the steel with the flint, repeating very quickly. When they don't get many sparks, they speed up the process. It's more important to get the right force and angle, not how many times you repeat. The winners of fire starting competitions rarely hit the steel (or flint) more than a couple of times. Finally, to completely beat this subject to death, be mindful of the proximity of your knuckles when you strike that sharp flint. I just counted four scars on the middle knuckles of my left hand, which I suspect were flint-induced. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---Original Message----- >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing it >the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Black Bear Confrontation Date: 11 Jul 1999 09:40:47 -0700 Lanney, I was talking to some old friends in northern Colorado, and they are having the same problem with cougars coming into building developements, small farms, etc. Then you go a hundred miles south and the same story is happening there but with the black bear. Was also told the mule deer seem to be having problems for the last couple of years. We had similar problems like this in this area around State College, PA a dozen years ago with cats, bears and white tails, wonder if this is a cycle thing - like with rabbits and squirrels !! Turtle. ___________________________________________ > On Fri, 09 July 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > The encounter with that bear probably aged that fellow plumb to social security age. Jee-Zus!! > Cougars are making a comeback where they have been absent for decades. A friend of mine shot a big one in Bosque county, Texas about 4 years ago. Bosque county is only two counties south of Ft Worth and is the adjacent county to mine. The cat was taken maybe 60 miles southwest of a metropolitian area of 4 million. A medium sized cougar (presumably a released or escaped pet) was captured in the alley about two blocks from my house about 5 years ago. The neighbors said that they couldn't kick their dogs out of the house at night for weeks before the dog pound guys caught it. Above and beyond the call of duty if you ask me. > However, the most dangereous critters in most woods are the ones that walk on two legs. Be careful...always. > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 11 Jul 1999 12:56:35 -0400 On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:16:37 -0500 "Glenn Darilek" writes: > The winners of fire starting competitions rarely hit the steel (or flint) more than a >couple of times. Iron Burner from your posting i can see that you have made several fire strikers and know what it takes---totally agree with you and you made a lot of good points ---especially in the technique thing---very important ---One strike and one blow and you got it all together---if a person practices this their profeciency in fire building increses---suggest the people that have been following this string go to the arcives and pull out the fire making posting that gives the total picture on all the process and methods--- again good posting Iron Burner--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Black Bear Confrontation Date: 11 Jul 1999 15:35:17 -0400 turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Lanney, > I was talking to some old friends in northern Colorado, and they are having the same problem with cougars coming into building developements, small farms, etc. Then you go a hundred miles south and the same story is happening there but with the black bear. Was also told the mule deer seem to be having problems for the last couple of years. > > We had similar problems like this in this area around State College, PA a dozen years ago with cats, bears and white tails, wonder if this is a cycle thing - like with rabbits and squirrels !! Here, it's 'yotes! They're getting more bold, and kill and drag off pets out of yards. The most damage is done with the white tail, as they kill a LOT of fawns soon after birth. Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 12 Jul 1999 07:45:36 -0500 Glenn Wrote: >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it harder, it makes it softer!<<< Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is annealing, which softens the metal. Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 12 Jul 1999 10:37:32 -0400 Okay, I finally snapped.....First, folks, as interesting as this thread and the differing opinions are, starting a fire with flint, steel & and some sort of char is not brain surgery. Go to you local smith, buy a good steel, get a nice, sharp piece of flint, char up some punk and get to firemakin'... Don't analyze it to death and try to suck all the fun outta it. And tempering DOES soften steel. A knife that comes out of the quench is glass hard and will shatter or snap at the slightest provocation. You use a heat source, (I use a wrought iron block heated until it is near white) and set the metal on it and "draw a temper" The colors range from a light straw (razor hard) to a dark blue (spring soft). The secret is knowing how to do it and to reading the colors. Tony is right that annealing softens metal, but that is used after forging to be able to file a knife or whatever into a final shape. I do not temper my fire steels at all. They temper themselves from the heat after the quench. I take them out of the quench when they are still damned hot and let them cool. Just a good oil quench and a resulting steel that will last you a lifetime, if you don't lose it... The one I carry has been with me for near 15 yrs now. And it works as good as it did the day I made it. Or better yet, learn to make and use a fire-bow and we won't have to worry about flint, steel OR char!! Thanks Dennis Miles AMM #1622 Hiveranno. "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 northwoods wrote: > Glenn Wrote: > > >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it > harder, it makes it softer!<<< > > > > > Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is > annealing, which softens the metal. > > Tony Clark -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 12 Jul 1999 18:29:48 -0700 Dennis, You go Brother. I was just about to say my two cents worth, but you pretty much said it all. YEAH, WHAT HE SAID ! I will add this. There are a lot of fire steels in the rendezvous trade tents that won't make good trotline weights. Get a good one. A decent flint and practice practice practice. That's all I have to say about that. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Okay, I finally snapped.....First, folks, as interesting as this thread >and the differing opinions are, starting a fire with flint, steel & and >some sort of char is not brain surgery. Go to you local smith, buy a good >steel, get a nice, sharp piece of flint, char up some punk and get to >firemakin'... Don't analyze it to death and try to suck all the fun outta >it. > And tempering DOES soften steel. A knife that comes out of the quench is >glass hard and will shatter or snap at the slightest provocation. You use >a heat source, (I use a wrought iron block heated until it is near white) >and set the metal on it and "draw a temper" The colors range from a >light straw (razor hard) to a dark blue (spring soft). The secret is >knowing how to do it and to reading the colors. >Tony is right that annealing softens metal, but that is used after >forging to be able to file a knife or whatever into a final shape. > >I do not temper my fire steels at all. They temper themselves from the >heat after the quench. I take them out of the quench when they are still >damned hot and let them cool. Just a good oil quench and a resulting >steel that will last you a lifetime, if you don't lose it... The one I >carry has been with me for near 15 yrs now. And it works as good as it >did the day I made it. > >Or better yet, learn to make and use a fire-bow and we won't have to >worry about flint, steel OR char!! > >Thanks >Dennis Miles >AMM #1622 Hiveranno. > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > >northwoods wrote: > >> Glenn Wrote: >> >> >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it >> harder, it makes it softer!<<< >> >> >> >> >> Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is >> annealing, which softens the metal. >> >> Tony Clark > >-- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed Date: 12 Jul 1999 20:57:13 EDT Need your help guys. We're headed for Colorado this Thursday night (7/15). Will be doing a big circle of it, with scheduled stops in Colorado Springs, Pueblo, Salida, Aspen, Rocky Mtn. National Park, Estes Park and Denver. We have already scheduled a day at Bent's Fort. Anyone know of any other historically interesting places I should hit along the path we are taking? Any info would be helpful. Thanks! Rick Petzoldt Traphand Traphand@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 12 Jul 1999 20:30:02 -0500 Warning: Hit the Delete button right now if you are not interested in the terminology of tempering steel. I think I got the tempering terminology figured out finally. In the book "The Art of Blacksmithing" Alex W. Bealer says: "Contrary to popular opinion, the term "tempering" is not applied to hardening steel, but rather to controlled softening after the steel has been hardened with heat and rapid quenching in a brine bath." In the book Practical Blacksmithing" Percy W. Blandford says: "Hardening is done by by heating to reddness and cooling quickly. This will make tool steel extremely hard, but it will also be brittle. . . . Some of the brittleness- and with it some of the hardness - has to be removed by tempering." Mirriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says "temper 4 a (1) : to soften (as hardened steel or cast iron) by reheating at a lower temperature." HOWEVER Webster's also defines temper as "4 a (2) hardening (as steel) by reheating and cooling in oil." Most blacksmiths know that high carbon steel will not be hardened as much with an oil quench as with a brine or water quench because oil does not cool as fast as water or brine. Therefore, Webster's recognizes tempering as hardening steel by controlling the quenching rate so the steel is not as brittle as it would be if it were hardened by a brine or water quench. In any case, you don't want to harden your steel to the point of brittleness unless you want to surprise some young'n that he is strong enough to break steel with his bare hands. Are we ready to pronounce the Requiescat in Pace for this subject? Glenn Darilek Iron Burner >northwoods wrote: > >> Glenn Wrote: >> >> >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it >> harder, it makes it softer!<<< >> >> >> Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is >> annealing, which softens the metal. >> >> Tony Clark > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed Date: 12 Jul 1999 21:53:02 -0500 If you can fit Delta into your trip you can tour Ft Uncompagre. It is a = magnificent reproduction of an early trading fort. Dan Duder (I presume = he is still there) will give you a very good tour. Delta is north of = Montrose on the western side of the state and may be out of your loop, = but my trip there was well worth the trouble in 1997. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 7:57 PM > Need your help guys. We're headed for Colorado this Thursday night = (7/15). > Will be doing a big circle of it, with scheduled stops in Colorado = Springs,=20 > Pueblo, Salida, Aspen, Rocky Mtn. National Park, Estes Park and = Denver. >=20 > We have already scheduled a day at Bent's Fort. >=20 > Anyone know of any other historically interesting places I should hit = along=20 > the=20 > path we are taking? Any info would be helpful. >=20 > Thanks! > Rick Petzoldt > Traphand > Traphand@aol.com >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: MtMan-List: i just got my card! Date: 12 Jul 1999 20:10:25 -0700 well i just got my probationary card today so its official yer all stuck with me . as to how to join the amm ? i just got on this list, made a correct kit and got to know some people. if that don't get you invited to a doins ASK. thats what i did . of course capt Lathi lives three hours away, but if you want something bad enough you'll drive ten! when he put me in touch with my local booshway i told him he'd have to take me in or i would pester him till he did. i love mountain man rules! PS Dennis thanks for the good info on tempering. i plan to try that some day. YMHS, "Ephraim" Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose-Moose and Ephraim???? Date: 12 Jul 1999 21:47:29 -0700 Barbara Smith wrote: > Terry and Roger, > > Iffen it's not tellin' any deep dark man secrets, why you callin' Terry > Moose-Moose? And what's the deal with "Ephraim?" That latin for Bear? Tassee, Yup, that be latin for Bear. You heard that story, but his name really should be "Ephraim-Moose! Moose!-Muskrat yum yum. But that is all too long even if it is discriptive. So we will just call him "Ephraim" or "YumYum" for short. I remain simply........... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Nationals Date: 12 Jul 1999 21:54:29 -0700 Laura Rugel Glise wrote: > "I went to the woods because I wanted to live deliberately. I wanted > to live deep and suck all the marrow of life! To put to rout all that > was not life, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not > lived." > > Thank you again, for the best, damn time of my life. > > Respectfully submitted, > Laura Glise Miss Laura, I presume to speak for all of the Brothers you met when I say, you are most By God Welcome and welcome back any time. I remain........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: i just got my card! Date: 13 Jul 1999 02:22:24 -0400 congratulations terry---now the real learning process begins---work hard and dont be afraid to ask questions of those who have gone before you---some of it will be easy for you and some is more dificult--- welcome brother YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:10:25 -0700 terry l landis writes: >well i just got my probationary card today so its official yer all >stuck with me . >as to how to join the amm ? i just got on this list, made a correct >kit and got to know some people. if that don't get you invited to a >doins ASK. thats what i did . of course capt Lathi lives three hours >away, but if you want something bad enough you'll drive ten! when he >put me in touch with my local booshway i told him he'd have to take me >in or i would pester him till he did. i love mountain man rules! > > >PS Dennis thanks for the good info on tempering. i plan to try that >some day. >YMHS, > "Ephraim" > Terry Landis ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 13 Jul 1999 06:55:23 -0500 Obviously just another case of me not knowing what I am talking about. Thanks for clarifying that for me. For some reason I was under the assumption that the correct and most accurate way to temper a hardened piece was to temper from soft, or to first anneal first , and then heat to the desired color, and then quench in oil or whatever you are using. Could you please tell me if there is any difference between the final results of "drawing" a temper like Denice called it, and doing the same thing,(heating to desired color and quenching in something other than water) to a soft piece? Thanks, Tony Clark -----Original Message----- >Warning: Hit the Delete button right now if you are not interested in the >terminology of tempering steel. > > >I think I got the tempering terminology figured out finally. > >In the book "The Art of Blacksmithing" Alex W. Bealer says: > >"Contrary to popular opinion, the term "tempering" is not applied to >hardening steel, but rather to controlled softening after the steel has been >hardened with heat and rapid quenching in a brine bath." > >In the book Practical Blacksmithing" Percy W. Blandford says: > >"Hardening is done by by heating to reddness and cooling quickly. This will >make tool steel extremely hard, but it will also be brittle. . . . Some of >the brittleness- and with it some of the hardness - has to be removed by >tempering." > >Mirriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says > >"temper 4 a (1) : to soften (as hardened steel or cast iron) by reheating at >a lower temperature." > >HOWEVER > >Webster's also defines temper as "4 a (2) hardening (as steel) by reheating >and cooling in oil." > >Most blacksmiths know that high carbon steel will not be hardened as much >with an oil quench as with a brine or water quench because oil does not cool >as fast as water or brine. Therefore, Webster's recognizes tempering as >hardening steel by controlling the quenching rate so the steel is not as >brittle as it would be if it were hardened by a brine or water quench. > >In any case, you don't want to harden your steel to the point of brittleness >unless you want to surprise some young'n that he is strong enough to break >steel with his bare hands. > >Are we ready to pronounce the Requiescat in Pace for this subject? > >Glenn Darilek >Iron Burner > > >>northwoods wrote: >> >>> Glenn Wrote: >>> >>> >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it >>> harder, it makes it softer!<<< >>> >>> >>> Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is >>> annealing, which softens the metal. >>> >>> Tony Clark >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 13 Jul 1999 08:46:36 -0400 Tony, Doesn't work that way.. Go to the library, get a book on the subject and read it. Sincerely Dennis > > . Could you > please tell me if there is any difference between the final results of > "drawing" a temper like Denice called it, and doing the same thing,(heating > to desired color and quenching in something other than water) to a soft > piece? > > Thanks, > Tony Clark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Glenn Darilek > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 8:25 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel > > >Warning: Hit the Delete button right now if you are not interested in the > >terminology of tempering steel. > > > > > >I think I got the tempering terminology figured out finally. > > > >In the book "The Art of Blacksmithing" Alex W. Bealer says: > > > >"Contrary to popular opinion, the term "tempering" is not applied to > >hardening steel, but rather to controlled softening after the steel has > been > >hardened with heat and rapid quenching in a brine bath." > > > >In the book Practical Blacksmithing" Percy W. Blandford says: > > > >"Hardening is done by by heating to reddness and cooling quickly. This > will > >make tool steel extremely hard, but it will also be brittle. . . . Some of > >the brittleness- and with it some of the hardness - has to be removed by > >tempering." > > > >Mirriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says > > > >"temper 4 a (1) : to soften (as hardened steel or cast iron) by reheating > at > >a lower temperature." > > > >HOWEVER > > > >Webster's also defines temper as "4 a (2) hardening (as steel) by reheating > >and cooling in oil." > > > >Most blacksmiths know that high carbon steel will not be hardened as much > >with an oil quench as with a brine or water quench because oil does not > cool > >as fast as water or brine. Therefore, Webster's recognizes tempering as > >hardening steel by controlling the quenching rate so the steel is not as > >brittle as it would be if it were hardened by a brine or water quench. > > > >In any case, you don't want to harden your steel to the point of > brittleness > >unless you want to surprise some young'n that he is strong enough to break > >steel with his bare hands. > > > >Are we ready to pronounce the Requiescat in Pace for this subject? > > > >Glenn Darilek > >Iron Burner > > > > > >>northwoods wrote: > >> > >>> Glenn Wrote: > >>> > >>> >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it > >>> harder, it makes it softer!<<< > >>> > >>> > >>> Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is > >>> annealing, which softens the metal. > >>> > >>> Tony Clark > >> > > > > > > > > -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tommy Edge Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 13 Jul 1999 07:49:57 -0500 northwoods wrote: > Glenn Wrote: > > >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it > harder, it makes it softer!<<< > > Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is > annealing, which softens the metal. > > Tony Clark HARDENING SIMPLE STEELS All of the really low alloy steels have one feature which make them virtually foolproof when it comes to cooking them for hardening. When one of the low alloy steels reaches the critical temperature where it can be hardened by quenching, it turns non - magnetic. As the steel heats, check it with a magnet. At a certain point, the magnet won't stick. That's usually at a temperature (color) far lower than you would think. Once the magnet won't stick to the blade, give it a moment more in the fire and then into the quench it goes. (An extra 50 degrees over the critical temperature insures better hardening and won't hurt the steel.) The simple alloys can also be selectively hardened, not with a fancy temper line, but with a softer back that will make the spine and tang less susceptible to breakage. All you have to do is take the blade up to heat very quickly, getting the thin parts along the edge hot before the thicker spine. You could also just dip the cutting edge into the oil, allowing the spine to cool more slowly, not hardening it. Should you err and get the spine too hot and inadvertently harden it, you can use a torch to partially anneal the critical areas. I recommend that all stick tang blades have a softer section where the tang joins the blade. When the hot blade hits the oil, you will almost always get some fire. Don't leave the tang half out of the oil. It is near red hot, sticking out of the oil and acting like the wick of a candle to start a fire in the tank. NEVER use a small tank of oil to quench a lot of blades. Sooner or later, you'll find the flash point of the oil. That's where it starts burning all by itself, and you won't like that one little bit. Forged blades will always have stress than needs to be worked out before hardening. They should be annealed, preferably several times before hardening. Some knife makers have had wonderful results by annealing their blade steel three times before hardening. It reduces grain size significantly, making a much tougher blade. Any steel that has been hardened need to be tempered , annealed, or drawn back or what ever you want to call it. O-1 is oil hardening if taken up to 63to65 rockwell and not tempered within one hour or so it might crack , tempering by heating after heat treating will reduce the stress caused by heat treating -- Thank You Tommy Edge 1244 CCR 157 Cash Ar. 72421 http://www.nex.net/tedge I make knives. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 13 Jul 1999 08:09:38 -0500 You were not incorrect, as Webster's points out. I have no experience with comparisons of the two processes for controlling the hardness of steel. However, by reheating to various lower temperatures, the smith can temper the steel to any level of softness one desires. By the controlled quench method, the only way to vary the amount of tempering is to have a range of different oils or liquids with various cooling rates. If the hardness is acceptable for your purpose with an oil quench, I think that method would be easier to duplicate every time. To open this can of worms more, however, there are at least two more tempering variables to consider. One is the type of steel (amount of carbon) and the other is the size (particularly thickness) of the object being tempered. I will not get into that other than to say that there is a way to make a trial temper with the particular type of steel you are using to get the optimum temper for the particular application. I imagine that if any other readers have read this far, they must be convulsing in agony over this thread, which has progressed beyond the intent of the hist_text list. Perhaps if there is any more discussion of this we should do it privately. Glen Darilek Iron Burner northwoods wrote: > > Obviously just another case of me not knowing what I am talking about. > Thanks for clarifying that for me. For some reason I was under the > assumption that the correct and most accurate way to temper a hardened piece > was to temper from soft, or to first anneal first , and then heat to the > desired color, and then quench in oil or whatever you are using. Could you > please tell me if there is any difference between the final results of > "drawing" a temper like Denice called it, and doing the same thing,(heating > to desired color and quenching in something other than water) to a soft > piece? > > Thanks, > Tony Clark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Glenn Darilek > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 8:25 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel > > >Warning: Hit the Delete button right now if you are not interested in the > >terminology of tempering steel. > > > > > >I think I got the tempering terminology figured out finally. > > > >In the book "The Art of Blacksmithing" Alex W. Bealer says: > > > >"Contrary to popular opinion, the term "tempering" is not applied to > >hardening steel, but rather to controlled softening after the steel has > been > >hardened with heat and rapid quenching in a brine bath." > > > >In the book Practical Blacksmithing" Percy W. Blandford says: > > > >"Hardening is done by by heating to reddness and cooling quickly. This > will > >make tool steel extremely hard, but it will also be brittle. . . . Some of > >the brittleness- and with it some of the hardness - has to be removed by > >tempering." > > > >Mirriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says > > > >"temper 4 a (1) : to soften (as hardened steel or cast iron) by reheating > at > >a lower temperature." > > > >HOWEVER > > > >Webster's also defines temper as "4 a (2) hardening (as steel) by reheating > >and cooling in oil." > > > >Most blacksmiths know that high carbon steel will not be hardened as much > >with an oil quench as with a brine or water quench because oil does not > cool > >as fast as water or brine. Therefore, Webster's recognizes tempering as > >hardening steel by controlling the quenching rate so the steel is not as > >brittle as it would be if it were hardened by a brine or water quench. > > > >In any case, you don't want to harden your steel to the point of > brittleness > >unless you want to surprise some young'n that he is strong enough to break > >steel with his bare hands. > > > >Are we ready to pronounce the Requiescat in Pace for this subject? > > > >Glenn Darilek > >Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock Date: 13 Jul 1999 08:10:22 -0600 Friends, I am making an elkskin/deerskin hunting frock using the Eagle's View Caped Woodsman's frock pattern (no. 92). I have many questions, but one in particular regarding sleeves. I think I figured it out that the pattern offers a choice of sleeves, the tapered one and the straight one. The cutout pattern in the leather instructions call for the tapered one, but they seem very small. I wrapped the sleeve pattern around my arm and thought it was pretty narrow. Is there any problem using the straight sleeve instead? I haven't cut any leather yet, not till I get this pattern figured out. Eagle's view patterns are supposed to be simple, but the directions leave much to be desired. What's missing is a step by step process of putting the thing together. Do they assume too much? Has anyone had experience with this particular pattern and could lend me assistance? TIA Cheers, HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock Date: 13 Jul 1999 07:01:07 -0700 Henry, Go with the straight sleeve, remember in cold weather you may have several shirts on and you'll need to have room to move around without tearing out seams. In warm weather when working or on extended walks you will sweat and the tapered sleeve will stick to your under garment and again tear seams. If you look at any of the photo's of old clothes, a large percentage of them are loose fitting, leaving room for additional clothing and breathing room. Most leather garments that fit snug, when wet stick real good to under clothing or just your skin - loose fitting ones are easier to live with and seem to last longer with less seam stress. Later Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory > On Tue, 13 July 1999, "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > > Friends, > > I am making an elkskin/deerskin hunting frock using the Eagle's View Caped > Woodsman's frock pattern (no. 92). > > I have many questions, but one in particular regarding sleeves. I think I > figured it out that the pattern offers a choice of sleeves, the tapered one > and the straight one. The cutout pattern in the leather instructions call > for the tapered one, but they seem very small. I wrapped the sleeve > pattern around my arm and thought it was pretty narrow. Is there any > problem using the straight sleeve instead? I haven't cut any leather yet, > not till I get this pattern figured out. > > Eagle's view patterns are supposed to be simple, but the directions leave > much to be desired. What's missing is a step by step process of putting > the thing together. Do they assume too much? Has anyone had experience > with this particular pattern and could lend me assistance? > TIA > > Cheers, > HBC > > **************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 > Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock Date: 13 Jul 1999 12:32:40 -0400 > I am making an elkskin/deerskin hunting frock using the Eagle's View Caped > Woodsman's frock pattern (no. 92). > > > Eagle's view patterns are supposed to be simple, but the directions leave > much to be desired. I attempted to make a pair of breeches from an Eagle View pattern. I eventually gave up and turned the project over to my wife. After about 8 hours and much cursing, my wife, her mother and aunt finally had a finished garment. Her aunt, who sews professionally, pronounced the pattern maker "a sick individual". Just on the principle of it, she made me another pair loosely based on the pattern to show how it is supposed to work. Bottom line, if you are not an experienced clothing maker, Eagle View patterns are pretty crude. Kirk Silverdale PA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Northwest Trade Gun Kit? Date: 13 Jul 1999 11:52:57 -0700 Okay Folks, I looked on the innernept and could not find a Trade Gun kit anywhere. Any clues for the search to continue? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Northwest Trade Gun Kit? Date: 13 Jul 1999 15:00:41 EDT > I looked on the innernept and could not find a Trade Gun kit anywhere. Any > clues for the search to continue? Rick, http://oldfoxtraders.com Click on the link that says suppliers. I have almost everyone in the business listed there. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed Date: 13 Jul 1999 14:22:51 -0600 Howdy Rick, This may not be fur trade, per se, but sounds like you are going to be near Fairplay, CO, in the famed Bayou Salade. This is the site of what is called the "Old South Park City Museum". It is a recreated old west Main Street: houses, hotels, pharmacy, doctor & dentist office, etc.They went around to all the old mining settlements, etc here in CO where buildings still existed and moved them, intact, to this location. We always have a great time visiting, never had any complaints from out-of-towners. Great local history, and one of the best arrowhead displays I've ever seen. What's your plans for Denver ?? If'n you've a mind to palaver a bit over a cool one, let me know off-line & I'll send you my phone number. Always time for a brother. Red Coyote Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Traphand@aol.com [SMTP:Traphand@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 6:57 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed > > Need your help guys. We're headed for Colorado this Thursday night > (7/15). > Will be doing a big circle of it, with scheduled stops in Colorado > Springs, > Pueblo, Salida, Aspen, Rocky Mtn. National Park, Estes Park and Denver. > > We have already scheduled a day at Bent's Fort. > > Anyone know of any other historically interesting places I should hit > along > the > path we are taking? Any info would be helpful. > > Thanks! > Rick Petzoldt > Traphand > Traphand@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Northwest Trade Gun Kit? Date: 13 Jul 1999 19:48:44 EDT try track of the wolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 13 Jul 1999 19:09:11 -0500 Sorry fellas, I am typing that article in, but am behind. It will add considerably to the thread, so some of you might want to dump it. Pretty good reading, but will be a few days yet. Rock I thought Ursa was bear in Latin. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock Date: 13 Jul 1999 19:29:57 -0500 Henry I have no input on your question. I just wanted to say that it is good = to see your name on my screen again. Where you been? YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 9:10 AM > Friends, >=20 > I am making an elkskin/deerskin hunting frock using the Eagle's View = Caped > Woodsman's frock pattern (no. 92). >=20 > I have many questions, but one in particular regarding sleeves. I = think I > figured it out that the pattern offers a choice of sleeves, the = tapered one > and the straight one. The cutout pattern in the leather instructions = call > for the tapered one, but they seem very small. I wrapped the sleeve > pattern around my arm and thought it was pretty narrow. Is there any > problem using the straight sleeve instead? I haven't cut any leather = yet, > not till I get this pattern figured out. >=20 > Eagle's view patterns are supposed to be simple, but the directions = leave > much to be desired. What's missing is a step by step process of = putting > the thing together. Do they assume too much? Has anyone had = experience > with this particular pattern and could lend me assistance? > TIA >=20 > Cheers, > HBC >=20 > **************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 > Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** >=20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock Date: 13 Jul 1999 20:00:10 -0700 Yeah Henry, I guess the rumors of you going under were greatly exagerated. Good to hear from you. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Henry I have no input on your question. I just wanted to say that it is good to see your name on my screen again. Where you been? YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 9:10 AM > Friends, > > I am making an elkskin/deerskin hunting frock using the Eagle's View Caped > Woodsman's frock pattern (no. 92). > > I have many questions, but one in particular regarding sleeves. I think I > figured it out that the pattern offers a choice of sleeves, the tapered one > and the straight one. The cutout pattern in the leather instructions call > for the tapered one, but they seem very small. I wrapped the sleeve > pattern around my arm and thought it was pretty narrow. Is there any > problem using the straight sleeve instead? I haven't cut any leather yet, > not till I get this pattern figured out. > > Eagle's view patterns are supposed to be simple, but the directions leave > much to be desired. What's missing is a step by step process of putting > the thing together. Do they assume too much? Has anyone had experience > with this particular pattern and could lend me assistance? > TIA > > Cheers, > HBC > > **************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 > Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 13 Jul 1999 19:09:25 -0700 > > > I thought Ursa was bear in Latin. Rock, It is but you got to tell them something or they just keep asking. Yea, your rigorously right. It is Ursa in Latin. I believe that Ephraim was a name given to Grizzlies by some Mt. Men as in "Old Ephraim" but right off the top of my head I don't know where the original name comes from or remember the association that it had with big bears but I think it is a biblical name. Sounds Hebrew to my ear. Perhaps some one else would care to elaborate for Tassee. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 13 Jul 1999 22:21:20 -0400 And what self-respecting mtn man wants to be hung with the moniker of "Ursala"? Sorry, couldn't help myself.... D Roger Lahti wrote: > > > > > > I thought Ursa was bear in Latin. > > Rock, > > It is but you got to tell them something or they just keep asking. > Yea, your rigorously right. It is Ursa in Latin. I believe that Ephraim > was a name given to Grizzlies by some Mt. Men as in "Old Ephraim" but > right off the top of my head I don't know where the original name comes > from or remember the association that it had with big bears but I think it > is a biblical name. Sounds Hebrew to my ear. Perhaps some one else would > care to elaborate for Tassee. I remain...... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 13 Jul 1999 19:58:28 -0700 Dennis Miles wrote: > And what self-respecting mtn man wants to be hung with the moniker of > "Ursala"? > > Sorry, couldn't help myself.... Dennis, Well, old son, I reckon I didn't expect you would be able to resist. There was an old Mt. Man over in the Selway back in '43' or was it '53', can't remember for sure which, what had him a she bear he'd raise up from a cub. Killed her mammy, he did, and she was one of the last Grizzlies left in them hills by that time. Well he raised up that cub and taught her tricks and such and fed her real good on Selway elk and white tail deer. He never did have much truck with the few whites that were around, mostly HBC employees anyway. So he got to thinking of his cub as being a human like him. Well, one thing led to another and they eventually fell in love. He took his 'sweety bear' and himself down to Lapway and had Dr. Spaulding marry the happy couple. The good Dr. was reluctant but this old fella wasn't to be denied and so the ceremony was duly performed. When the Dr. got to the part where he asks the bride "Do you (insert brides name here) take this man to be your lawfully wedded husband until death, etc." the Dr. turned to the groom and said "Why, I don't believe I caught the Ladies name". Our Mt. Man said with pride " Well, good sir, I call her Ursula. Got a fancy ring to it don'tcha reckon?" The Dr. allowed as how it did and with that information, finished the wedding. The wedding party feasted on smoked and fresh salmon from the Clearwater River and all present danced with the "Beautiful Bear Bride" and the proud new husband well into the night. They went back to their mountains the next morning and were rarely seen again. They did raise a family of strapping boys and beautiful girls. The children did come out of the mountains and spread across the Pacific NW. I would venture to say that they still walk amongst us today. I have my suspicions about the lineage of "Ephraim Moose Moose Muskrat yum yum" and his "Party Boshway" DP! I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > D > > Roger Lahti wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I thought Ursa was bear in Latin. > > > > Rock, > > > > It is but you got to tell them something or they just keep asking. > > Yea, your rigorously right. It is Ursa in Latin. I believe that Ephraim > > was a name given to Grizzlies by some Mt. Men as in "Old Ephraim" but > > right off the top of my head I don't know where the original name comes > > from or remember the association that it had with big bears but I think it > > is a biblical name. Sounds Hebrew to my ear. Perhaps some one else would > > care to elaborate for Tassee. I remain...... > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' > > -- > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Osos, grande Date: 10 Sep 1999 04:07:28 +0000 Captain: Couldn't help but respond to your tale. There is a book, "Daughters of Copper Woman," in which a bear falls in love with a beautiful woman (an event not uncommon in mythology). The bear is embarrassed by his affection for the human, but eventually, overcome with passion, declares his love for her. The woman, confronted with her grizzly suitor, is not shocked or repulsed, and remarks, "We are all simply a bunch of bones in a sack of flesh." Ain't it the truth. Looking forward to seeing you in the near future on the northwest coast. Laura Glise Atlanta, Georgia but heading for Washington State ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Osos, grande Date: 13 Jul 1999 20:59:58 -0700 Laura Rugel Glise wrote: > Captain: > > Couldn't help but respond to your tale. Dear lady, Tale? Why that's the God's honest truth, it is! Now the story you relate is surely a story and I recall it from my youth. But then perhaps?! At any rate, we look forward to your lovely presence in the Magnificent Pacific NW. Have a safe journey little lady and we will see you when you get here. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Items for sale Date: 13 Jul 1999 23:42:37 -0500 Washtahay- I have the following items for sale: 1) Left handed L&R Leman percussion lock $40 1) .58 cal rifle barrel, octagonal, tapered, made by Moody $100 Thanks LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ephraim Date: 13 Jul 1999 22:21:05 -0700 According to Poulsen's 'The Mountain Man Vernacular' Ephraim A term used in the mountains for grizzly bear. Hebrew name meaning 'fruitful'. I thought ol' Ephraim was another name for the Devil. I have nothing to support that other than my memory. I looked it up and found the above. Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 14 Jul 1999 08:02:48 -0400 Capt. That was truely an inspirin' tale, it was. And true it had to be. And if it weren't so early here, I would open that flask you made me and take a sip to it. I was pondering on the tale and was wondering iffen mebby the not so distant kin of those two may have wandered theyselves down Texas way... Because I can think of a hairylegged Mtn Man there that would pass as kin...Mebby I'll start callin' him Ursala... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lewis Kevin Raper" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Northwest Trade Gun Kit? Date: 14 Jul 1999 10:35:04 -0400 Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Wrote: > > Okay Folks, > I looked on the innernept and could not find a Trade Gun kit anywhere. Any > clues for the search to continue? Answer: http://www.dixiegun.com Watch yer top knot, Kevin (PossumHunter) Raper "No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in life" ( Testimony of Anabaptist leader Hans Denk) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Where I've been Date: 14 Jul 1999 10:27:54 -0600 Well, Compadres, I ducked out for a while. I had my PhD qualifying exams in May, which sapped a lot out of me. Then I jumped into travel: a National Park Service program at Fort Larned (Santa Fe Trail Days), a consulting job at a museum in Port Arthur, TX, and a living history conference in Kansas City. And all that in about 6 weeks. I'm just beginning to catch my breath. Me and the family are leaving Friday for Santa Fe to stay with my ol' pal Marc Simmons. We're gonna spend Saturday at El Rancho de Las Golondrinas, and visit with other friends who work there. In between all that, I'm trying to get a few things done, like brain a couple of hides, repair equipment, make this d--n leather hunting frock, and get ready for the big weekend at Bent's Fort (Santa Fe Trail Encampment) at the end of the month. I also agreed to speak at the Las Animas, CO high school the day before the deal at Bent's. What was that about catching my breath? Anyway, I'm glad I was missed, altho, it didn't occur to me that I went anywhere. Now I know how Mark Twain felt. Makes me feel like sharing a flask of aguardiente and a game of Spanish Monte with y'all. Of course, Ol' Jeff Hengesbaugh can out do me on both. ;-) Cheers, HBC > >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:00:10 -0700 >From: "larry pendleton" >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock > >Yeah Henry, I guess the rumors of you going under were greatly exagerated. >Good to hear from you. >Pendleton >- -----Original Message----- >From: Ratcliff >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 5:30 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock > > >Henry >I have no input on your question. I just wanted to say that it is good to >see your name on my screen again. Where you been? >YMOS >Lanney Ratcliff **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 14 Jul 1999 09:11:01 -0700 now capt. lathi is tellin tales again. it must be a tale . i hope you all believe it's a tale. me ? look like a bear?just becuse i'm almost 6ft tall and hairy as a sheep skin. well, thank you for the compliment capt. i'll get even........i mean i owe you one...... see you on the ground soon ? YMHS, "Ephraim" Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Where I've been Date: 14 Jul 1999 14:07:15 EDT Henry, When you see your old buddy Marc Simmons, ask him if he is ever going to finish the book on Kit Carson, then let me know what he says. Good to see you around again. Missed you at the Nationals. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 14 Jul 1999 11:21:06 -0700 Dennis Miles wrote: > Because I can think of a > hairylegged Mtn Man there that would pass as kin...Mebby I'll start callin' him > Ursala... Dennis, I think I know just the "man" you speak of. He was up to the AMM Nationals on the Gros Ventre a couple weeks ago. With his scent in the air it's no wonder our young pilgrim had an encounter of the close kind. As to what we might start calling him, I think you will agree that "Ursala Minor" would be a gross understatement! Perhaps "Ursa Major" or "Major Ursa"? I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 14 Jul 1999 14:31:18 -0400 > > "Major Ursa"? I remain....... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' <>>>Capt. We are speakin of the same fella....BUT if we start callin him "Major Ursa", hell, his head may swell some. I think mebby "Major Ursala" will keep the swellin down... And as soon as he starts reading this (or havin' his lovely wife read this to him) that he will wanna toss his two cents in.. Not that it will do much good... D -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 14 Jul 1999 11:39:08 -0700 terry l landis wrote: > now capt. lathi is tellin tales again. it must be a tale . i hope you all > believe it's a tale. me ? look like a bear?just becuse i'm almost 6ft > tall and hairy as a sheep skin. well, thank you for the compliment capt. > i'll get even........i mean i owe you one...... > see you on the ground soon ? Ephraim, I do hope to see you on the ground soon. We will be doing a lot of scouting this next 3 or 4 months looking at sites for the 2000 AMM Nationals. We have some possible sites in mind but want to check them out again. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > YMHS, > "Ephraim" > Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 14 Jul 1999 11:51:48 -0700 Dennis Miles wrote: > > I think mebby "Major Ursala" will keep the swellin down... And as soon > as he starts reading this (or havin' his lovely wife read this to him) that he will wanna > toss his two cents in.. Not that it will do much good... Dear Sir, I await further developments with bear baited breath! I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: A hunter's name for the grizzly bear - "ephraim" Date: 14 Jul 1999 14:12:33 -0700 Here's what a few other sources show for "ephraim" Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ______________________________________________________________________ Hypertext Webster Gateway: "ephraim" ______________________________________________________________________ From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (web1913) Ephraim \E"phra*im\, n. [The proper name.] (Zo["o]l.) A hunter's name for the grizzly bear. ______________________________________________________________________ From U.S. Gazetteer (1990) (gazetteer) Ephraim, UT (city, FIPS 23530) Location: 39.35972 N, 111.58436 W Population (1990): 3363 (943 housing units) Area: 6.8 sq km (land), 0.0 sq km (water) Zip code(s): 84627 Ephraim, WI (village, FIPS 24150) Location: 45.15765 N, 87.16626 W Population (1990): 261 (705 housing units) Area: 10.1 sq km (land), 0.0 sq km (water) ______________________________________________________________________ From Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary (easton) Ephraim double fruitfulness ("for God had made him fruitful in the land of his affliction"). The second son of Joseph, born in Egypt (Gen. 41:52; 46:20). The first incident recorded regarding him is his being placed, along with his brother Manasseh, before their grandfather, Jacob, that he might bless them (48:10; comp. 27:1). The intention of Joseph was that the right hand of the aged patriarch should be placed on the head of the elder of the two; but Jacob set Ephraim the younger before his brother, "guiding his hands wittingly." Before Joseph's death, Ephraim's family had reached the third generation (Gen. 50:23). ______________________________________________________________________ From Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary (late 1800's) (hitchcock) Ephraim, fruitful; increasing ______________________________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Northwest Trade Gun Kit? Date: 14 Jul 1999 16:32:28 -0500 > > > > > > > I looked on the innernept and could not find a Trade Gun kit anywhere. Any > > clues for the search to continue? http://members.xoom.com/TVM/ http://www.moad.com/jbrown/ http://www.firelocks.com/ http://www.trackofthewolf.com/ http://www.oct-country.com/ http://www.caywoodguns.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 14 Jul 1999 19:29:04 -0500 There are a bunch of folks here with mixed backgrounds all right. = Grizz, Aligator, Snapping Turtle....various beasts. Even the lower = forms are mixed up as well. There is a snake here that is found nowhere = else......the very dangerous and elusive Copperback Rattle Moccasin. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 7:02 AM > Capt. > That was truely an inspirin' tale, it was. And true it had to be. = And if it > weren't so early here, I would open that flask you made me and take a = sip to it. I > was pondering on the tale and was wondering iffen mebby the not so = distant kin of > those two may have wandered theyselves down Texas way... Because I can = think of a > hairylegged Mtn Man there that would pass as kin...Mebby I'll start = callin' him > Ursala... > D >=20 > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >=20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 14 Jul 1999 19:43:40 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BECE31.2C8CD8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is my 2 cents. Note the dates: 1816 and 1817. I can read THAT. Major Ursa ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 1:31 PM >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > "Major Ursa"? I remain....... > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' >=20 > <>>>Capt. > We are speakin of the same fella....BUT if we start callin him "Major = Ursa", hell, his > head may swell some. I think mebby "Major Ursala" will keep the = swellin down... And as soon > as he starts reading this (or havin' his lovely wife read this to him) = that he will wanna > toss his two cents in.. 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UAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQ AUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQA+iiigBlFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFA BRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAF FFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUU UUAPooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKK KACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAoooo AKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKAP/2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BECE31.2C8CD8E0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 14 Jul 1999 20:52:26 -0400 Ratcliff wrote: > There are a bunch of folks here with mixed backgrounds all right. Grizz, Aligator, Snapping Turtle....various beasts. >>Yep.. And one hairylegged mountaineer I'll call Ursala... D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files Date: 14 Jul 1999 18:09:59 -0700 Capt. L-moccasin or Rattler Miles !!!! On Wed, 14 July 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > There are a bunch of folks here with mixed backgrounds all right. Grizz, Aligator, Snapping Turtle....various beasts. Even the lower forms are mixed up as well. There is a snake here that is found nowhere else......the very dangerous and elusive Copperback Rattle Moccasin. > Lanney Ratcliff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dennis Miles > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 7:02 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files > > > > Capt. > > That was truely an inspirin' tale, it was. And true it had to be. And if it > > weren't so early here, I would open that flask you made me and take a sip to it. I > > was pondering on the tale and was wondering iffen mebby the not so distant kin of > > those two may have wandered theyselves down Texas way... Because I can think of a > > hairylegged Mtn Man there that would pass as kin...Mebby I'll start callin' him > > Ursala... > > D > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Fwd: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 14 Jul 1999 22:16:10 EDT --part1_240a998c.24be9e6a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_240a998c.24be9e6a_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from aol.com (rly-yb05.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.5]) by air-yb05.mail.aol.com (v60.14) with ESMTP; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:02:50 -0400 Received: from cc_mail.ci.culver-city.ca.us (mail.ci.culver-city.ca.us [216.100.0.33]) by rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (vx) with SMTP; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:02:32 -0400 Received: by CC_MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <38T5WW2P>; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:59:48 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Glenn Darilek [mailto:llsi@texas.net] Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 9:36 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel The best sparks come from the highest carbon steel that is hardened to the maximum. However, this combination also results in the maximum number ofbroken steels. Hardening high carbon steel by heating to orange and then water quenching makes the steel almost as brittleness as glass. Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it harder, it makes it softer! Tempering steel is removing some of the hardness to make the steel less brittle. So the smith must compromise hardness with acceptable strength of the steel. There are many recipes for this, and I make steels with a very hard striking face, but the inside edge of the steel is tempered for strength. The way I learned to harden and temper tool (high carbon) steel, when I was in high school metal shop (1972), is as follows: 1..Using an oxygen/acetylene torch, thoroughly heat the tool you are making to cheery red. 2. Quench (dip) the hot metal in oil and stir around to cool quickly. You may get a small surface flame up upon quenching. You can use water instead of oil. I can't remember what the difference is, other than I remember oil gave a better result. This is the hardening process. Do not drop the steel on a hard surface, as it may shatter. 3. Heat up your home stove to 450 degrees and then "bake" the steel for an hour. This is the tempering process. 4. Another way to temper is to use the torch and heat the metal, slowly and evenly, to a straw color and let cool at room temperature. I have hardened and tempered punches, ball peen hammers, chisels, etc., using the above methods. I read of an old timers method for case hardening mild steel is to wrap the item to be hardened in leather, then encase it, or wrap it in tin from a tin can, or whatever, and put it in the coals of a camp fire for an hour or two. I remember reading this in a discussion of how to harden a frizzen. I have not tried this. Has anyone out there tried or heard of this? Carp --part1_240a998c.24be9e6a_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Brief Comments Date: 14 Jul 1999 22:37:28 -0400 (EDT) good hands-on practical knowledge from Tommy Edge (the non-magnetic phase of the steel is called austenite - the hardened and drawn back phase is called tempered martensite). Iron Burner: didn't convulse in agony, but did have a good heart bubbling laugh that lasted 5 minutes. Ephraim was the youngest son of Joseph son of Jacob son of Isaac son of Abraham. Ephraim is Hebrew and means fruitful. See KJV Bible, Genesis 41:50-52. "Thank God for Michigan" - Abraham Lincoln, May 1861. "Thank God for Texas and Her Rangers" (Lanney and no doubt others with keen insight and wisdom have said the 2 legged creatures are the most dangerous beasts in the forest or mountains). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 14 Jul 1999 22:19:42 EDT In a message dated 99-07-14 17:02:50 EDT, you write: << -----Original Message----- From: Glenn Darilek [mailto:llsi@texas.net] Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 9:36 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel The best sparks come from the highest carbon steel that is hardened to the maximum. However, this combination also results in the maximum number ofbroken steels. Hardening high carbon steel by heating to orange and then water quenching makes the steel almost as brittleness as glass. Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it harder, it makes it softer! Tempering steel is removing some of the hardness to make the steel less brittle. So the smith must compromise hardness with acceptable strength of the steel. There are many recipes for this, and I make steels with a very hard striking face, but the inside edge of the steel is tempered for strength. The way I learned to harden and temper tool (high carbon) steel, when I was in high school metal shop (1972), is as follows: 1..Using an oxygen/acetylene torch, thoroughly heat the tool you are making to cheery red. 2. Quench (dip) the hot metal in oil and stir around to cool quickly. You may get a small surface flame up upon quenching. You can use water instead of oil. I can't remember what the difference is, other than I remember oil gave a better result. This is the hardening process. Do not drop the steel on a hard surface, as it may shatter. 3. Heat up your home stove to 450 degrees and then "bake" the steel for an hour. This is the tempering process. 4. Another way to temper is to use the torch and heat the metal, slowly and evenly, to a straw color and let cool at room temperature. I have hardened and tempered punches, ball peen hammers, chisels, etc., using the above methods. I read of an old timers method for case hardening mild steel is to wrap the item to be hardened in leather, then encase it, or wrap it in tin from a tin can, or whatever, and put it in the coals of a camp fire for an hour or two. I remember reading this in a discussion of how to harden a frizzen. I have not tried this. Has anyone out there tried or heard of this? Carp >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 14 Jul 1999 22:34:12 EDT ubj: RE: MtMan-List: Flint and steel -----Original Message----- From: Glenn Darilek [mailto:llsi@texas.net] Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 9:36 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel The best sparks come from the highest carbon steel that is hardened to the maximum. However, this combination also results in the maximum number ofbroken steels. Hardening high carbon steel by heating to orange and then water quenching makes the steel almost as brittleness as glass. Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it harder, it makes it softer! Tempering steel is removing some of the hardness to make the steel less brittle. So the smith must compromise hardness with acceptable strength of the steel. There are many recipes for this, and I make steels with a very hard striking face, but the inside edge of the steel is tempered for strength. The way I learned to harden and temper tool (high carbon) steel, when I was in high school metal shop (1972), is as follows: 1..Using an oxygen/acetylene torch, thoroughly heat the tool you are making to cheery red. 2. Quench (dip) the hot metal in oil and stir around to cool quickly. You may get a small surface flame up upon quenching. You can use water instead of oil. I can't remember what the difference is, other than I remember oil gave a better result. This is the hardening process. Do not drop the steel on a hard surface, as it may shatter. 3. Heat up your home stove to 450 degrees and then "bake" the steel for an hour. This is the tempering process. 4. Another way to temper is to use the torch and heat the metal, slowly and evenly, to a straw color and let cool at room temperature. I have hardened and tempered punches, ball peen hammers, chisels, etc., using the above methods. I read of an old timers method for case hardening mild steel is to wrap the item to be hardened in leather, then encase it, or wrap it in tin from a tin can, or whatever, and put it in the coals of a camp fire for an hour or two. I remember reading this in a discussion of how to harden a frizzen. I have not tried this. Has anyone out there tried or heard of this? Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Ephraim and America Date: 14 Jul 1999 22:56:43 -0400 (EDT) All American Indians (north, central, and south) are the sole and exclusivedescendents of Ephraim and Manasseh, the two sons of Joseph. [Another name for the devil is satan, not Ephraim. devil means false accuser and slanderer, while satan means adversary or opponent of all that is good, i.e. that comes from God the Great Spirit Father and His Only Begotten Son]. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Photos Date: 15 Jul 1999 03:30:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00FA_01BECE72.5363DE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep, he took lots of purty pictures, showed them to me, told me the = stories..... Bitch! It looks like you guys really had a great time in a beautiful place. = Color me green. S ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ratcliff=20 To: Sidney Porter=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 5:47 PM I thought you might like to see a few photos of what you missed. Lanney ------=_NextPart_000_00FA_01BECE72.5363DE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yep, he took lots of purty pictures, showed them to = me, told=20 me the stories.....  Bitch!
 
It looks like you guys really had a great time in a = beautiful=20 place.  Color me green.
 
S
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ratcliff =
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 = 5:47=20 PM

I thought you might like to see a few photos of what you = missed.
Lanney
------=_NextPart_000_00FA_01BECE72.5363DE00-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed Date: 15 Jul 1999 03:45:35 -0700 I agree with Lanney, Ft. Uncompagre is a pretty good stop. Dan Deuter, his brother, and one other man were there when I went. I don't remember Dan's brother's name, but I do recall that he does some of the most beautiful quill work that I've ever seen. Having done a bit myself, it's a talent I greatly admire. Sidney If you can fit Delta into your trip you can tour Ft Uncompagre. It is a magnificent reproduction of an early trading fort. Dan Duder (I presume he is still there) will give you a very good tour. Delta is north of Montrose on the western side of the state and may be out of your loop, but my trip there was well worth the trouble in 1997. Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ursala Date: 15 Jul 1999 03:56:55 -0700 Dennis, Yep, Ursala does fit purty good, don't it? Fits as well as Big Zwey any day.... :0) S Capt. That was truely an inspirin' tale, it was. And true it had to be. And if it weren't so early here, I would open that flask you made me and take a sip to it. I was pondering on the tale and was wondering iffen mebby the not so distant kin of those two may have wandered theyselves down Texas way... Because I can think of a hairylegged Mtn Man there that would pass as kin...Mebby I'll start callin' him Ursala... D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Marc Simmons (was: Where I've been) Date: 15 Jul 1999 09:10:39 -0600 Marc says he wants to finish that Carson book in the worst way, but too many other (personal) things have taken precedence during the last two years. Once that's all over, he'll get back to the manuscript. He said he wanted to show me some stuff he found that he's putting into it. I'll be sure to give him all of your regards. He'll be glad to know he has a following out there (he's a very modest guy. I can't convince him that he has more than just a following among fur trade reenactors). >Henry, > > >When you see your old buddy Marc Simmons, ask him if he is ever going to >finish the book on Kit Carson, then let me know what he says. >Good to see you around again. Missed you at the Nationals. > >Todd Glover > **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Keith and Linda Lawyer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed Date: 15 Jul 1999 11:13:44 -0500 Hello. Yes, Dan Deuter is still at Fort Uncompagre in Delta, Colo. His brother, Jim, has moved back to S.D. Ed Maddox is also still at the fort with Dan. They do a beautiful job and if they find out something they have done there is incorrect, they change it. It is a wonderful place to visit. Plan to stay most of the day. My husband and I were married at the Fort and visit every time we go to Colo. Didn't get to go this year due to family "doings". :( Linda ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A hunter's name for the grizzly bear - "ephraim" Date: 15 Jul 1999 12:30:33 -0700 Funny how the different time frame have used a term or name, interesting. Turtle. > On Wed, 14 July 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Here's what a few other sources show for "ephraim" > > Buck Conner > AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Hypertext Webster Gateway: "ephraim" > ______________________________________________________________________ > > From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (web1913) > > Ephraim \E"phra*im\, n. [The proper name.] (Zo["o]l.) A hunter's name for the grizzly bear. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > From U.S. Gazetteer (1990) (gazetteer) > > Ephraim, UT (city, FIPS 23530) Location: 39.35972 N, 111.58436 W > Population (1990): 3363 (943 housing units) Area: 6.8 sq km (land), 0.0 > sq km (water) Zip code(s): 84627 Ephraim, WI (village, FIPS 24150) > Location: 45.15765 N, 87.16626 W Population (1990): 261 (705 housing > units) Area: 10.1 sq km (land), 0.0 sq km (water) > ______________________________________________________________________ > > From Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary (easton) > > Ephraim double fruitfulness ("for God had made him fruitful in the land > of his affliction"). The second son of Joseph, born in Egypt (Gen. > 41:52; 46:20). The first incident recorded regarding him is his being > placed, along with his brother Manasseh, before their grandfather, > Jacob, that he might bless them (48:10; comp. 27:1). The intention of > Joseph was that the right hand of the aged patriarch should be placed on > the head of the elder of the two; but Jacob set Ephraim the younger before his brother, "guiding his hands wittingly." Before Joseph's death, Ephraim's family had reached the third generation (Gen. 50:23). > ______________________________________________________________________ > > From Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary (late 1800's) (hitchcock) > > Ephraim, fruitful; increasing > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal Date: 15 Jul 1999 14:39:36 -0700 It's the age old question. Probably been discussed here before. What's the similarity between gauge and calibre? Is a 20 gauge the same as a .54? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal Date: 15 Jul 1999 17:07:19 -0500 Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote: > > It's the age old question. Probably been discussed here before. What's the > similarity between gauge and calibre? Is a 20 gauge the same as a .54? .58 calibre is 20 gauge. If I am wrong about this please someone correct me. But, guage is the measure of the number of steel balls that diameter that it takes to make 1 pound. 20 gauge would take 20 steel balls .58 dia. to make one pound. this may not be true any more but I read it somewhere once. Snakeshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal Date: 15 Jul 1999 18:07:11 -0400 >It's the age old question. Probably been discussed here before. What's the >similarity between gauge and calibre? Is a 20 gauge the same as a .54? You might find the information in a FAQ on the MLML web page useful. First item discussed is just this question. It's at: http://members.aye.net/~bspen/math.html Other FAQs are available on the MLML page, URL below. Bob Bob Spencer Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal Date: 15 Jul 1999 17:21:58 -0500 You are almost right, Snakeshot. Gauge is determined by the number of = round, bore diameter LEAD balls required to weight a pound. 20 gauge = =3D 20 round lead balls to the pound....about .62 caliber. Caliber is = the diameter of the bore expressed in 1/100's of an inch. 50 caliber = =3D .5 inch.....that is 50/100's inch or one half inch, Denise. =20 Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 5:07 PM > Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote: > >=20 > > It's the age old question. Probably been discussed here before. = What's the > > similarity between gauge and calibre? Is a 20 gauge the same as a = .54? > .58 calibre is 20 gauge. If I am wrong about this please someone > correct me. But, guage is the measure of the number of steel balls > that diameter that it takes to make 1 pound. 20 gauge would take > 20 steel balls .58 dia. to make one pound. this may not be true=20 > any more but I read it somewhere once. >=20 > Snakeshot >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ephraim and America Date: 15 Jul 1999 17:45:47 -0500 >All American Indians (north, central, and south) are the sole and >exclusivedescendents of Ephraim and Manasseh, the two sons of >Joseph. And the documentation for this can be found where? I am a Christian,yet I play an Indian when reenacting and REALLY want to know where I can find this? Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tommy Edge Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal Date: 15 Jul 1999 19:13:23 -0500 Bishnow wrote: > Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote: > > > > It's the age old question. Probably been discussed here before. What's the > > similarity between gauge and calibre? Is a 20 gauge the same as a .54? > .58 calibre is 20 gauge. If I am wrong about this please someone > correct me. But, guage is the measure of the number of steel balls > that diameter that it takes to make 1 pound. 20 gauge would take > 20 steel balls .58 dia. to make one pound. this may not be true > any more but I read it somewhere once. > > Snakeshot lead balls not steel -- Thank You Tommy Edge 1244 CCR 157 Cash Ar. 72421 http://www.nex.net/tedge I make knives. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Jackson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal Date: 15 Jul 1999 18:38:06 PDT I have a trade gun in 24 gauge, she shoots a .570 ball MadJack >From: Tommy Edge >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:13:23 -0500 > >Bishnow wrote: > > > Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote: > > > > > > It's the age old question. Probably been discussed here before. >What's the > > > similarity between gauge and calibre? Is a 20 gauge the same as a >.54? > > .58 calibre is 20 gauge. If I am wrong about this please someone > > correct me. But, guage is the measure of the number of steel balls > > that diameter that it takes to make 1 pound. 20 gauge would take > > 20 steel balls .58 dia. to make one pound. this may not be true > > any more but I read it somewhere once. > > > > Snakeshot > >lead balls not steel > > >-- >Thank You >Tommy Edge >1244 CCR 157 >Cash Ar. 72421 >http://www.nex.net/tedge >I make knives. > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal Date: 15 Jul 1999 22:12:16 -0400 My understanding is that gauge is fairly equivalent to balls per pound. With a desire to play with numbers, one can figure this based on density, volume, and bore size. There's a bunch of good threads on this in the archive E-mail files, but to make things simple, I call my .54 smoothbore a 28 gauge. There's one good thread which defines the use of ratios, knowing that 0.72 bore = 12 gauge (12 balls to the pound). It goes like this: cube the result of dividing the diameters (0.72/0.54) then multiply by 12 to get 28.44 or 28 gauge. I suppose it should work they other direction as well. Tom Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote: > It's the age old question. Probably been discussed here before. What's the > similarity between gauge and calibre? Is a 20 gauge the same as a .54? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal Date: 16 Jul 1999 01:42:11 EDT Lead not steel is correct, and here are some equivelents as taken from both the '99 Dixie Gun Works Catalog, pg 709, and 'The Complete Black Powder Handbook' by Fadala, pg 188: GAUGE BORE DIAMETER BALLS PER LB (APPROX) 12 .729 12 18 .637 17 20 .615 20 24 .579 24 28 .550 28 29 .543 29 50 .453 It is noted in Fadala that the actual gauge of most modern BP guns varies from the above calculated figures. It says that many, if not most 12 gauge are actually 13, and that most 10's are actually 11's, due to the loading components (whatever the heck that means). Hope this helps, Barney ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 16 Jul 1999 13:46:29 -0600 Ho the List, Maybe you guys can help me........... I have a couple of hand hammered copper mugs. They are very nicely made, but drinking out of them worries me, for all the reasons well known. I have been looking around here for a source of tin that I might coat the interiors with. The responses I have received range from "never heard of such a thing" to "not many people do THAT any more". But no one can tell me where I might purchase this stuff. Is anyone besides me FRUSTRATED at the fact that most people who work in hardware, lumber, auto parts stores, etc. know NOTHING about the products they sell. Or worse yet, know nothing of products they should sell, but don't?? I know minimum wage buys you little in the way of experience these days, but this is ridiculous. I have read posts on this list about how to tin, but not where to get the stuff. I've looked thru the yellow pages here in Denver, but can't find a heading or business that fits the bill. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Lou Colorado Territory ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 16 Jul 1999 15:37:49 -0700 Sickler, Louis L wrote: > Ho the List, > > Maybe you guys can help me........... > > I have a couple of hand hammered copper mugs. They are very nicely made, but > drinking out of them worries me, for all the reasons well known. I have been > looking around here for a source of tin that I might coat the interiors > with. Lou, You can use "silver bearing lead free solder" as sold in plumbing shops "Eagle Hardware", "Ernst", etc. to tin the inside of your copper pots. A one lb. roll will cost you about $6 to $10 bucks depending on what the going rate is. Get the solder and some paste flux intended for use with that particular brand of solder and get with me on Monday or Sunday night. I got to make a run to Boise so can't go in to detail now on how to do it but it ain't brain surgery! I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Wilson Price Hunt Party > The responses I have received range from "never heard of such a thing" > to "not many people do THAT any more". But no one can tell me where I might > purchase this stuff. > > Is anyone besides me FRUSTRATED at the fact that most people who work in > hardware, lumber, auto parts stores, etc. know NOTHING about the products > they sell. Or worse yet, know nothing of products they should sell, but > don't?? > > I know minimum wage buys you little in the way of experience these days, but > this is ridiculous. > > I have read posts on this list about how to tin, but not where to get the > stuff. I've looked thru the yellow pages here in Denver, but can't find a > heading or business that fits the bill. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Lou > Colorado Territory ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 16 Jul 1999 15:48:11 -0700 Capt. You're right...goin' to Boise ain't anything like brain-surgery...more of a pain the the other end!!! HAR HAR HAR and apologies to any boise-ites from former idaho falls-ite! Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 16 Jul 1999 17:48:29 -0500 Lou, A search of Thomas Register turned up: Canfield 1 Crossman Rd. Sayreville, NJ 08872 USA Tel: -Out Of State: 800-526-4577 Fax: 732-316-2177 Or Call: 732-316-2100 Assets: 5M+ ($5,000,000 - 9,999,999) Employees: 50-99 Activity(ies): Manufacturer Year Established: 1844 Description: Mfrs. Of Wire, Bare & Core Solders. Solder Preforms, Spheres= , Rings, Including Acid & Rosin Core Solder, Electronic, Plumbers, Automotive, Jewelers, Ingot & Pig Solder, Solder Paint, Paste Form, Solde= r Creme Silver Brazing Alloys, Fluxes, Soldering Chemicals For Stained-Glas= s, Came Lead, Tinning Solders, Fuse Wire, Babbitt, Babbitt Wire, Tin Anodes, Solder Anodes, & Tin Alloyed With Zinc, Cadmium, Bismuth, Antimony & Silver. Distributors Of Brand Name Pig Tin In Bar, Ingot & Pig Forms. They had a web site listed when I tried it the link didn't work. Try the 800 # they should at least be able to tell you who you can buy some from. You might also try local dental laboratory supplies, they may have some. They used to. A dairy supply should also sell bar tin, good plumbing suppliers also used to. Farm supply also used to stock bar tin. If you're doggedly determined you will find some. Buying acids gets tric= ky anymore -- be prepared to answer questions. John... At 01:46 PM 7/16/99 -0600, you wrote: >Ho the List, > >Maybe you guys can help me........... > >I have a couple of hand hammered copper mugs. They are very nicely made,= but >drinking out of them worries me, for all the reasons well known. I have = been >looking around here for a source of tin that I might coat the interiors >with. The responses I have received range from "never heard of such a th= ing" >to "not many people do THAT any more". But no one can tell me where I mi= ght >purchase this stuff. > >Is anyone besides me FRUSTRATED at the fact that most people who work in >hardware, lumber, auto parts stores, etc. know NOTHING about the product= s >they sell. Or worse yet, know nothing of products they should sell, but >don't?? > >I know minimum wage buys you little in the way of experience these days,= but >this is ridiculous. > >I have read posts on this list about how to tin, but not where to get th= e >stuff. I've looked thru the yellow pages here in Denver, but can't find = a >heading or business that fits the bill. > >Any help would be greatly appreciated. > >Lou >Colorado Territory >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 16 Jul 1999 19:33:05 EDT Lou, If your mugs are solid copper, is it really necessary to coat them at all? The best water piping is just copper with no lining. To find the stuff you need, check plumbing supply stores. I found tin solders in rolls like electrical solder, but lead and flux free to use on copper water piping, so its safe for drinking water. A knowledgable counter man in either of those type stores should be able to get you the right product. Get the object to be coated hot enough so the melt will flow over the surfaces and with a well protected hand and arm, swish it around to cover the copper, then pour out the excess. Hope this helps, Barney ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 16 Jul 1999 19:11:34 -0500 If anything acidic is to be drunk from the cup, it should be tinned. = Coffee is acidic, but anyone who can drink hot coffee from a copper cup = is too tough to die anyhow. I swear, the cup seems hotter than the = coffee. A rolled edge tin cup is bad enough, so I use a crock cup. = Does anybody know for sure if alcohol is safe to drink from an untinned = copper cup? Ice water is safe for sure. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 6:33 PM > Lou, If your mugs are solid copper, is it really necessary to coat = them at=20 > all? The best water piping is just copper with no lining. To find = the=20 > stuff you need, check plumbing supply stores. I found tin solders in = rolls=20 > like electrical solder, but lead and flux free to use on copper water = piping,=20 > so its safe for drinking water. A knowledgable counter man in either = of=20 > those type stores should be able to get you the right product. Get = the=20 > object to be coated hot enough so the melt will flow over the surfaces = and=20 > with a well protected hand and arm, swish it around to cover the = copper, then=20 > pour out the excess. =20 > Hope this helps, Barney > =20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Tin, Date: 16 Jul 1999 19:38:43 -0500 Louis, give me an address, and Ill send out a pound or so of tin, and some flux. rock See, Buck, what goes around comes around!!!! Thanks, Buck. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 16 Jul 1999 22:28:08 EDT I just finished reading the autobiography of Gurdon Saltonstall Hubbard and got through several chapters of SwiftWalker before the interlibrary loan time was up. For those of you who aren't familiar with him, Hubbard started as a 15 year old clerk with the American Fur Co. and ended being the Chief Trader in charge of all the Illinois country by the time he was around 25. The book provided some enlightening first hand info, but also created some questions. He traveled with the Illinois Brigade as a clerk. Firstly, he stated that the voyageurs ate daily rations of peas and tallow, and on Sundays, the meal was a special treat... pancakes and honey from the company's stores. He also stated that they carried only knives and tomahawks, and no other weapons. No guns. The trader and clerks (3) ate in a separate mess and had tents. The voyageurs had no shelter except in very bad weather, when they stowed the trade goods under the canoes and used the tarps, which usually covered the goods, to fashion shelters using the canoes. He stated that he took the trader's Manton double-barrel flint shotgun to hunt for their meals......often taking small game and waterfowl for their meals. The Brigade seemed to consist of the Trader, the clerks, and the voyageurs with 13 watercraft to carry the goods. The time period was shortly after the Chicago Massacre and before the Winnebago Wars. There were still hostile Indians in the area. However, it seemed like the shotgun was the only gun in the whole group. In one altercation with hostile Indians around Peoria, he mentioned going to the canoe and getting the shotgun, aimed, and fired. At the last minute, one of the voyageurs knocked the gun aside. The altercation ended through diplomatic relations rather than fighting. Had he shot the chief, it seems the whole brigade would have been unarmed except for hand weapons and the shotgun. Secondly, he mentioned neips, these being scraps of blanket bound around the feet as socks, which the mocassins were put over. Wool is a good insulator both in hot and cold, and would also soak up sweaty feet. On one occasion they were making the portage from Lake Michigan to the DesPlaines river, through Mud Lake. It was a bad time of the year, and the portage took three days to get everything over. The mud in the lake was over waist high, and they all ended up covered with leeches. Also, everyone always got sick after making this portage, and many got diseases which affected them for a lifetime. Do you suppose they made this portage naked? It doesn't seem like mocassins would be especially suited for 3 days of mud crawling. Additionally, he stated that each man carried his personal goods in a linen bag which was stowed in the canoe. When traveling afoot to take goods to the remote trading posts, each man carried a 90 lb pack. Do you suppose these were actual packs, or just trade goods wrapped in tarps and hitched with rope? Since there a lot of voyageurs involved in the Western Fur Trade, I wonder if these facts are consistent with that area as well. Lots of good stuff in these books. I encourage anyone interested in the western Great Lakes fur trade to read them as a first person reference. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 13 Sep 1999 04:12:11 +0000 9:00 p.m. EST Friday eve I wasn't going to bring this up, but when I saw the subject: anomalies, it just seemed fitting. When I was writing my book, Across the Seasons, I found the hand-written page of Osborne Russell's title page on the "drudy list." I chilled to think that it was written in Russell's hand, the protagonist of my book. A strange idea occurred to me: What if I had Russell's handwritting analyzed by a graphologist. What would it tell me that I didn't know about him/his personality after reading Journal of a Trapper. I did. Is anyone interested? If so, I will elaborate. If not, no harm done. Laura Glise Atlanta ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 16 Jul 1999 23:47:01 -0400 TELL US!!!!!!!!!!!! D Laura Rugel Glise wrote: > 9:00 p.m. EST Friday eve > > I wasn't going to bring this up, but when I saw the subject: anomalies, > it just seemed fitting. > > When I was writing my book, Across the Seasons, I found the hand-written > page of Osborne Russell's title page on the "drudy list." I chilled to > think that it was written in Russell's hand, the protagonist of my > book. > > A strange idea occurred to me: What if I had Russell's handwritting > analyzed by a graphologist. What would it tell me that I didn't know > about him/his personality after reading Journal of a Trapper. > > I did. Is anyone interested? If so, I will elaborate. If not, no harm > done. > > Laura Glise > Atlanta -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 13 Sep 1999 06:05:38 +0000 Midnight EST: Dennis, thank you for asking: An excerpt from my book, Across the Seasons: "A month before her trip, with Russell's Journal in hand, Sarah navigated the Internet trying to find Russell's journal on-line. At www.xmission.com:80:/~drudy/ she clicked on a link and found the handwritten title page of Journal of a Trapper slowly appearing on her computer screen. A haunting chill passed through her body as she sat in the dark, reading the familiar words written in Osborne's hand. . . . The idea of having Russell's handwritting analyzed, the handwriting of a dead man, intrigued her. She paid a graphologist $30 to reveal Russell was self-confident, outgoing, and sociable. He kept things inside himself and could be secretive and self-defensive. She characterized him as impulsive, and strongly determined, with a tendency to worry about things. She also said he had guilt feelings from the past (leaving home at16 and running off to sea, maybe), and some bitterness. Russell was spiritual. How could a man live in the Shining Mountains and not be spiritual?) His handwriting showed Russell had a strong sex drive and was very physical and athletic. He had a tendency to exaggerate. He was intelligent, aggressive, and responsible. He was also possessive. He didn't want to let go. When he became frustrated he was volatile, but he could hold his temper." (end excerpt) It seemed blasphemous, in a way, to take Osborne Russell's handwriting and ask a graphologist to take it apart and give me insights into his character. But, writing my book, it seemed one more way to look beyond his prose and his experience(s) and "find' out who he really was. I don't think he'd care. I think it would just be one more yarn he'd tell around the campfire. God, don't you wish we could sit down with him tonight! I hope you agree. Laura Glise Atlanta ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 16 Jul 1999 22:13:40 -0400 lou contact me offline and let me know how much tim you need--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 17 Jul 1999 11:45:24 -0400 please include me in a copy of that info if you will you can send it offline if you wish--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Thu, 13 Sep 1956 04:12:11 +0000 Laura Rugel Glise writes: >9:00 p.m. EST Friday eve > >I wasn't going to bring this up, but when I saw the subject: >anomalies, >it just seemed fitting. > >When I was writing my book, Across the Seasons, I found the >hand-written >page of Osborne Russell's title page on the "drudy list." I chilled >to >think that it was written in Russell's hand, the protagonist of my >book. > >A strange idea occurred to me: What if I had Russell's handwritting >analyzed by a graphologist. What would it tell me that I didn't know >about him/his personality after reading Journal of a Trapper. > >I did. Is anyone interested? If so, I will elaborate. If not, no >harm >done. > >Laura Glise >Atlanta > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 17 Jul 1999 11:34:45 +0000 Hi Laura Glise, You wrote: "A strange idea occurred to me: What if I had Russell's handwritting analyzed by a graphologist. What would it tell me that I didn't know about him/his personality after reading Journal of a Trapper. I did. Is anyone interested? If so, I will elaborate. If not, no harm done." Iwould be interested in the reading analysis. Joseph Miller -- Join our All ABOUT COLORADO Newsletter E- mailto:aboutColorado@Colorado-Mall.com OR go to http://aboutColorado.listbot.com to review archives and subscribe! -- Joseph Miller, Webmaster http://www.Colorado-Mall.com For information on Spnsor Banner Ads E- mailto:sponsor@Colorado-Mall.com To be Happy, Joyous and Free Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 17 Jul 1999 11:58:47 -0600 "Sickler, Louis L" wrote: >I have a couple of hand hammered copper mugs. They are very nicely made, > but drinking out of them worries me, for all the reasons well known. I have > been looking around here for a source of tin that I might coat the interiors with. At our house, we decided NOT to use the lead-free plumber's solder for tinning the copper pots Jeff makes. This solder is 95% tin, 5% antimony. (Some specialty "silver solders" actually contain the heavy metal cadmium, BTW; read the label!) Although the antimony is okay when used in plumbing, it may be toxic when used for other things. We decided not to risk using this solder to tin pots which were likely to be heated to boiling, used over heat for long cooking times, or used with acidic foods such as tomatoes or other fruits. Instead, we found a "metal alloyer" in our yellow pages, and got 100% pure bar tin. Metal alloyers can also be a cheap source of pure lead bars--if you buy both, make sure you will be able to tell which is which a year later! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 17 Jul 1999 19:03:23 -0500 > Do you suppose they made this portage naked? Dave,not quite naked,unless talking in the period mindset! One of the reasons the French got along so well with the natives was the Voyageurs afinity with comfort and native dress. Considering the routes traveled in the early trade through the "Old Northwest" were nearly all water and having spent a lifetime in the region the less clothing the better! Unless the mosquitos and blackflies are biting. Unlike the English superior attitude that whites are better than natives,the French by at least 1720-1740 had as much Indian ancestry as they had French. >When traveling afoot to take goods to the remote trading posts, >each man carried a 90 lb pack. Do you suppose these were actual >packs, or just trade goods wrapped in tarps and hitched with rope? It depends on your idea of what a pack is! If it is something on the order of 20th century backpacks,the answer is NO. If your answer is tightly bundled trade goods or furs(depending on the direction one was going) then the answer is YES. I believe Alaxander Henry wrote about the voyageurs packs and the fact that most engages would carry 2(yes two)packs at a time to get the portage over with as quickly as possible(I think there was some bonus's involved in this,I've been studying the War of 1812 lately and haven't been reading Henry or Nute lately. BTW,get a copy of Grace Lee Nutes book; "THE VOYAGEURS" and "THE VOYAGEURS HIGHWAY" a companion book. I think you can get reprints of both from Jas.Townsend for under $20. The way you described remote trading posts,I have to ask about your knowledge of the "Old Northwest"(not a flame) I am unaware of even the remotest post not being situated on a navagable river or stream. If you know something I don't,please share it with me,I'm here to learn! To show what I'm trying to say,you can can travel from Quebec to New Orleans by water with only (IIRC) 3 portages and I believe the longest was around Niagra falls. A back breaking 4-5 mile trot then back to the water and relatively easy travel. >Since there a lot of voyageurs involved in the Western Fur Trade, I >wonder if these facts are consistent with that area as well. I doubt it,as by then horses and mules were the mainstay of the trade and the Whites had begun to trap for themselves rather than trading. I don't think my Great (X6 or something like that) Grandfather ever thought of trapping the furs himself,but he did secure a trading license from King Louis in 1685 and that branch of the family was in the fur trade until about the American Civil War. >Lots of good stuff in these books. I encourage anyone interested >in the western Great Lakes fur trade to read them as a first person >reference. >Dave Kanger Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 17 Jul 1999 18:25:41 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BED08A.2BB1F620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello the list I recently bought a fine straight razor and a high quality strop from = Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to shave with = the thing. So far the results are satisfactory and the two cuts have = not required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and = suggestions regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would = appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the blade. Do you = apply anything to the strop? You know....information. Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any deficit in = his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach one = something, so jump in there with your expertise and help me out here.=20 By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and a = Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Ain't this a better subject than some that we have seen lately? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BED08A.2BB1F620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello the list
I recently bought a fine straight razor  and a high quality = strop from=20 Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to shave with = the=20 thing.  So far the results are satisfactory and the two cuts have = not=20 required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and suggestions=20 regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would = appreciate guidance=20 regarding sharpening and stroping the blade.  Do you apply anything = to the=20 strop?  You know....information.
 
Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any = deficit in=20 his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach one = something, so=20 jump in there with your expertise and help me out here. 
 
By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and a = Gerjman=20 solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price.
 
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Ain't this a better subject than some that we have seen=20 lately? 
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BED08A.2BB1F620-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 17 Jul 1999 22:06:38 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BED0A0.A46FFCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lanney Many years ago I too go the hots to use a straight razor. I = sharpened it up to best of my abability. Put hot wash cloth on my face, = used a brush and soap mug, and attempted to shave. On the first side of = my face there were only a few nicks, "hope they stop bleeding before I = go to work at 3:pm", then on the other side which was ackward, I added a = few more nicks. I now had a nice collection of nicks. I finally got = shaved. The next morning as I looked in the mirror to shave I noticed = there were too many scabs to even be able to use a safety razor. Looked = as if I shaved using my McCulloch. I waited a few days to heal up and = had a nice start on a set of whiskers. I used common sense and decided a = beard was safer than the straight razor. On the side of safety grow a beard. Put your fine razor in your = pack basket and lay it out at each voo` and say "yup some day when I`m = ready I`ll use it". GOOD LUCK TO YOU !!!!!!!! =20 John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ratcliff=20 To: History List=20 Cc: AMM=20 Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 5:25 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Hello the list I recently bought a fine straight razor and a high quality strop from = Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to shave with = the thing. So far the results are satisfactory and the two cuts have = not required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and = suggestions regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would = appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the blade. Do you = apply anything to the strop? You know....information. Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any deficit = in his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach one = something, so jump in there with your expertise and help me out here.=20 By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and a = Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Ain't this a better subject than some that we have seen lately? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BED0A0.A46FFCE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     Lanney
 
     Many years ago I too go the = hots to=20 use a straight razor.  I sharpened it up to best of my abability. = Put hot=20 wash cloth on my face, used a brush and soap mug, and attempted to = shave. =20 On the first side of my face there were only a few nicks, "hope they = stop=20 bleeding before I go to work at 3:pm", then on the other side which was = ackward,=20 I added a few more nicks. I now had a nice collection of nicks. I = finally got=20 shaved. The next morning as I looked in the mirror to shave I noticed = there were=20 too many scabs to even be able to use a safety razor. Looked as if I = shaved=20 using my McCulloch. I waited a few days to heal up and had a nice start = on a set=20 of whiskers. I used common sense and decided a beard was safer than the = straight=20 razor.
 
     On the side of safety grow = a beard.=20 Put your fine razor in your pack basket and lay it out at each voo` and = say "yup=20 some day when I`m ready I`ll use it".
 
          &nbs= p; =20 GOOD LUCK TO YOU !!!!!!!! 
 
 

John (BIG JOHN) = Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest =20 Ohio           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;          =20
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ratcliff =
To: History List
Cc: AMM
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 = 5:25=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, = 17 Jul=20 1999 19:25:47 -0500

Hello the list
I recently bought a fine straight razor  and a high quality = strop=20 from Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to = shave with=20 the thing.  So far the results are satisfactory and the two cuts = have not=20 required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and = suggestions=20 regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would=20 appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the = blade.  Do=20 you apply anything to the strop?  You know....information.
 
Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any = deficit in=20 his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach one = something, so=20 jump in there with your expertise and help me out here. 
 
By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and a = Gerjman=20 solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price.
 
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Ain't this a better subject than some that we have seen = lately? 
------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BED0A0.A46FFCE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 17 Jul 1999 22:05:07 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BED0A0.6E2955A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lanny: My old barber [long since gone under] shaved me with a straight = edge when I was younger. He said the trick was the angle of the blade, = pull the area that you are going to shave tight with your other hand and = go SLOWLY. A warm, wet towel will help if you have a thick beard. As = to sharpening with a strop, jewerlers rouge on the linen side and the = razor moved in a small circular motion, then finished on the leather = side. As with shooting pool, flintlocks and brain surgery, practice = makes perfect!! Long John ---Original Message----- Cc: AMM Hello the list I recently bought a fine straight razor and a high quality strop = from Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to shave = with the thing. So far the results are satisfactory and the two cuts = have not required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and = suggestions regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would = appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the blade. Do you = apply anything to the strop? You know....information. =20 Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any = deficit in his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach = one something, so jump in there with your expertise and help me out = here.=20 =20 By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and a = Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price. =20 YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Ain't this a better subject than some that we have seen lately? = =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BED0A0.6E2955A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lanny:  My = old barber=20 [long since gone under] shaved me with a straight edge when I was = younger. =20 He said the trick was the angle of the blade, pull the area that you are = going=20 to shave tight with your other hand and go SLOWLY.  A warm, wet = towel will=20 help if you have a thick beard.  As to sharpening with a strop, = jewerlers=20 rouge on the linen side and the razor moved in a small circular motion, = then=20 finished on the leather side.  As with shooting pool, flintlocks = and brain=20 surgery, practice makes perfect!!  Long=20 John           &nb= sp;     =20 ---Original = Message-----
From:=20 Ratcliff <rat@htcomp.net>
To: = History List=20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Cc:=20 AMM <ammlist@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Saturday, July 17, 1999 7:22 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: = Sat, 17=20 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500

Hello the list
I recently bought a fine straight razor  and a high = quality strop=20 from Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to = shave with=20 the thing.  So far the results are satisfactory and the two = cuts have=20 not required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and = suggestions=20 regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would=20 appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the = blade. =20 Do you apply anything to the strop?  You = know....information.
 
Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any = deficit=20 in his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach one = something,=20 so jump in there with your expertise and help me out = here. 
 
By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and = a=20 Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price.
 
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Ain't this a better subject than some that we have = seen=20 lately? 
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BED0A0.6E2955A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 17 Jul 1999 21:47:26 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BED09D.F5FD1780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John So far I haven't had that many nicks...only two. Maybe I will have = better luck than you did. If it doesn't work out I may use the razor as = you suggest, since it is a handsome tool. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Hunt=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Cc: AMM=20 Sent: Sunday, July 18, 1999 12:06 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Lanney Many years ago I too go the hots to use a straight razor. I = sharpened it up to best of my abability. Put hot wash cloth on my face, = used a brush and soap mug, and attempted to shave. On the first side of = my face there were only a few nicks, "hope they stop bleeding before I = go to work at 3:pm", then on the other side which was ackward, I added a = few more nicks. I now had a nice collection of nicks. I finally got = shaved. The next morning as I looked in the mirror to shave I noticed = there were too many scabs to even be able to use a safety razor. Looked = as if I shaved using my McCulloch. I waited a few days to heal up and = had a nice start on a set of whiskers. I used common sense and decided a = beard was safer than the straight razor. On the side of safety grow a beard. Put your fine razor in your = pack basket and lay it out at each voo` and say "yup some day when I`m = ready I`ll use it". GOOD LUCK TO YOU !!!!!!!! =20 John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ratcliff=20 To: History List=20 Cc: AMM=20 Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 5:25 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Hello the list I recently bought a fine straight razor and a high quality strop = from Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to shave = with the thing. So far the results are satisfactory and the two cuts = have not required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and = suggestions regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would = appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the blade. Do you = apply anything to the strop? You know....information. Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any = deficit in his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach = one something, so jump in there with your expertise and help me out = here.=20 By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and a = Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Ain't this a better subject than some that we have seen lately? = =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BED09D.F5FD1780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John
So far I haven't had that many nicks...only two.  Maybe I will = have=20 better luck than you did. If it doesn't work out I may use the = razor as you=20 suggest, since it is a handsome tool.
Lanney
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John Hunt =
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Cc: AMM
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 1999 = 12:06=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: = Sat, 17=20 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500

     Lanney
 
     Many years ago I too go = the hots to=20 use a straight razor.  I sharpened it up to best of my abability. = Put hot=20 wash cloth on my face, used a brush and soap mug, and attempted to=20 shave.  On the first side of my face there were only a few nicks, = "hope=20 they stop bleeding before I go to work at 3:pm", then on the other = side which=20 was ackward, I added a few more nicks. I now had a nice collection of = nicks. I=20 finally got shaved. The next morning as I looked in the mirror to = shave I=20 noticed there were too many scabs to even be able to use a safety = razor.=20 Looked as if I shaved using my McCulloch. I waited a few days to heal = up and=20 had a nice start on a set of whiskers. I used common sense and decided = a beard=20 was safer than the straight razor.
 
     On the side of safety = grow a beard.=20 Put your fine razor in your pack basket and lay it out at each voo` = and say=20 "yup some day when I`m ready I`ll use it".
 
          &nbs= p; =20 GOOD LUCK TO YOU !!!!!!!! 
 
 

John (BIG JOHN) = Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest =20 = Ohio           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;          =20
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ratcliff
To: History List
Cc: AMM
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 = 5:25=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: = Sat, 17 Jul=20 1999 19:25:47 -0500

Hello the list
I recently bought a fine straight razor  and a high = quality strop=20 from Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to = shave with=20 the thing.  So far the results are satisfactory and the two = cuts have=20 not required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and = suggestions=20 regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would=20 appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the = blade. =20 Do you apply anything to the strop?  You = know....information.
 
Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any = deficit=20 in his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach one = something,=20 so jump in there with your expertise and help me out = here. 
 
By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and = a=20 Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price.
 
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Ain't this a better subject than some that we have = seen=20 lately? 
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BED09D.F5FD1780-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 17 Jul 1999 21:59:15 -0500 Original Message----- Kestrel wrote: >>>>> The way you described remote trading posts,I have to ask about your >knowledge of the "Old Northwest"(not a flame) I am unaware of even the >remotest post not being situated on a navigable river or stream. If you know >something I don't,please share it with me,I'm here to learn! > To show what I'm trying to say,you can can travel from Quebec to New >Orleans by water with only (IIRC) 3 portages and I believe the longest was >around Niagra falls. A back breaking 4-5 mile trot then back to the water >and relatively easy travel.<<<<< Some of the posts here in northern WI where not near navigable rivers or streams at all, they where situated on lakes. It was not at all uncommon to have portages from 2 to 3 miles, or farther, between bodies of water. Practically all of the routes traveled by early traders where situated on water routes and overland trails that had been pioneered by native americans and had existed for centuries even millennia. Native americans where not at all averse to traveling for considerable distances between the "easiest and most suitable" water routes. My research indicates that they where also transporting large amounts of goods and materials, not unlike the later French traders. Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 17 Jul 1999 22:03:47 -0500 --Original Message----- Cc: AMM >>I would appreciate any tips and suggestions regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the blade. Do you apply anything to the strop? You know....information<< There was an article on just this subject in the last "Muzzleblasts". If you can't find a copy i'll send you mine i'm done with it. Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 17 Jul 1999 22:24:57 EDT don't shave with it if your hands are shaking...a man looks very strange without his nose..... used to be, a barber would apply an emory compound to the blade... mebbe you ought to go find an old barber to teach hands on... my barber here in clarksville still shaves yer neck with a straight razor zopi...who occasionally shaves with his ka-bar...'cuz i kin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 18 Jul 1999 22:42:14 -0500 Thanks Tony, I would appreciate seeing the issue. Contact me off list = and I will be glad to give you my address and provide postage for the = magazine. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 10:03 PM > --Original Message----- > From: Ratcliff > To: History List > Cc: AMM > Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 7:26 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 >=20 > >>I would appreciate any tips and suggestions regarding shaving with a > straight razor. Also, I would appreciate guidance regarding sharpening = and > stroping the blade. Do you apply anything to the strop? You > know....information<< >=20 > There was an article on just this subject in the last "Muzzleblasts". > If you can't find a copy i'll send you mine i'm done with it. >=20 > Tony Clark >=20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 18 Jul 1999 22:43:56 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BED16F.0491ED80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John It didn't take me long to figure out "SLOWLY". Thanks for the info. YMOS Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John McKee=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 10:05 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Lanny: My old barber [long since gone under] shaved me with a = straight edge when I was younger. He said the trick was the angle of = the blade, pull the area that you are going to shave tight with your = other hand and go SLOWLY. A warm, wet towel will help if you have a = thick beard. As to sharpening with a strop, jewerlers rouge on the = linen side and the razor moved in a small circular motion, then finished = on the leather side. As with shooting pool, flintlocks and brain = surgery, practice makes perfect!! Long John = ---Original Message----- From: Ratcliff To: History List Cc: AMM Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 7:22 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Hello the list I recently bought a fine straight razor and a high quality strop = from Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to shave = with the thing. So far the results are satisfactory and the two cuts = have not required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and = suggestions regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would = appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the blade. Do you = apply anything to the strop? You know....information. Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any = deficit in his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach = one something, so jump in there with your expertise and help me out = here.=20 By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and a = Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Ain't this a better subject than some that we have seen lately? = =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BED16F.0491ED80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John
It didn't take me long to figure out "SLOWLY".  Thanks for the = info.
YMOS
Lanney
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 McKee
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 = 10:05=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: = Sat, 17=20 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500

Lanny:  My = old barber=20 [long since gone under] shaved me with a straight edge when I was=20 younger.  He said the trick was the angle of the blade, pull the = area=20 that you are going to shave tight with your other hand and go = SLOWLY.  A=20 warm, wet towel will help if you have a thick beard.  As to = sharpening=20 with a strop, jewerlers rouge on the linen side and the razor moved in = a small=20 circular motion, then finished on the leather side.  As with = shooting=20 pool, flintlocks and brain surgery, practice makes perfect!!  = Long=20 = John           &nb= sp;     =20 ---Original = Message-----
From:=20 Ratcliff <rat@htcomp.net>
To: = History List=20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Cc:=20 AMM <ammlist@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Saturday, July 17, 1999 7:22 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500

Hello the list
I recently bought a fine straight razor  and a high = quality strop=20 from Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to = shave with=20 the thing.  So far the results are satisfactory and the two = cuts have=20 not required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and = suggestions=20 regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would=20 appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the = blade. =20 Do you apply anything to the strop?  You = know....information.
 
Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any = deficit=20 in his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach one = something,=20 so jump in there with your expertise and help me out = here. 
 
By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and = a=20 Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price.
 
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Ain't this a better subject than some that we have = seen=20 lately? 
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BED16F.0491ED80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 18 Jul 1999 22:47:06 -0500 I think that there are precious few barbers who can still shave = customers with a straight razor....AIDS and lawsuits are the main = culprits, I bet. Thanks for the info. YMOS Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 9:24 PM > don't shave with it if your hands are shaking...a man looks very = strange=20 > without his nose..... >=20 > used to be, a barber would apply an emory compound to the blade... > mebbe you ought to go find an old barber to teach hands on... > my barber here in clarksville still shaves yer neck with a straight = razor >=20 > zopi...who occasionally shaves with his ka-bar...'cuz i kin >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 17 Jul 1999 22:44:11 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BED0A5.E30FD740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You know Lanney, in an effort to beautify America, growing a beard might = not be a bad idea. Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: John Hunt To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Cc: AMM Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 7:04 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 =20 =20 Lanney =20 Many years ago I too go the hots to use a straight razor. I = sharpened it up to best of my abability. Put hot wash cloth on my face, = used a brush and soap mug, and attempted to shave. On the first side of = my face there were only a few nicks, "hope they stop bleeding before I = go to work at 3:pm", then on the other side which was ackward, I added a = few more nicks. I now had a nice collection of nicks. I finally got = shaved. The next morning as I looked in the mirror to shave I noticed = there were too many scabs to even be able to use a safety razor. Looked = as if I shaved using my McCulloch. I waited a few days to heal up and = had a nice start on a set of whiskers. I used common sense and decided a = beard was safer than the straight razor. =20 On the side of safety grow a beard. Put your fine razor in your = pack basket and lay it out at each voo` and say "yup some day when I`m = ready I`ll use it". =20 GOOD LUCK TO YOU !!!!!!!! =20 =20 =20 =20 John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ratcliff=20 To: History List=20 Cc: AMM=20 Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 5:25 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 =20 =20 Hello the list I recently bought a fine straight razor and a high quality = strop from Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to = shave with the thing. So far the results are satisfactory and the two = cuts have not required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips = and suggestions regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would = appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the blade. Do you = apply anything to the strop? You know....information. =20 Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any = deficit in his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach = one something, so jump in there with your expertise and help me out = here.=20 =20 By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and = a Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price. =20 YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Ain't this a better subject than some that we have seen = lately? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BED0A5.E30FD740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You know Lanney, in an effort to = beautify=20 America, growing a beard might not be a bad idea.
Pendleton
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 John Hunt <jhunt1@one.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Cc:=20 AMM <ammlist@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Saturday, July 17, 1999 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List: Date:=20 Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500

     Lanney
 
     Many years ago I too go = the hots=20 to use a straight razor.  I sharpened it up to best of my = abability.=20 Put hot wash cloth on my face, used a brush and soap mug, and = attempted to=20 shave.  On the first side of my face there were only a few = nicks,=20 "hope they stop bleeding before I go to work at 3:pm", = then on the=20 other side which was ackward, I added a few more nicks. I now had a = nice=20 collection of nicks. I finally got shaved. The next morning as I = looked in=20 the mirror to shave I noticed there were too many scabs to even be = able to=20 use a safety razor. Looked as if I shaved using my McCulloch. I = waited a few=20 days to heal up and had a nice start on a set of whiskers. I used = common=20 sense and decided a beard was safer than the straight = razor.
 
     On the side of safety = grow a=20 beard. Put your fine razor in your pack basket and lay it out at = each voo`=20 and say "yup some day when I`m ready I`ll use = it".
 
          &nbs= p; =20 GOOD LUCK TO YOU !!!!!!!! 
 
 

John (BIG JOHN)=20 Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest =20 = Ohio           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;          =20
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Ratcliff
To: History List
Cc: AMM
Sent: Saturday, July 17, = 1999 5:25=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500

Hello the list
I recently bought a fine straight razor  and a high = quality=20 strop from Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning = how to=20 shave with the thing.  So far the results are satisfactory = and the=20 two cuts have not required the paramedics but I would appreciate = any=20 tips and suggestions regarding shaving with a straight razor. = Also, I=20 would appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping = the=20 blade.  Do you apply anything to the strop?  You=20 know....information.
 
Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to = any=20 deficit in his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to = teach=20 one something, so jump in there with your expertise and help me = out=20 here. 
 
By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle = and a=20 Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's = price.
 
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Ain't this a better subject than some that we = have seen=20 lately? 
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BED0A5.E30FD740-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: MtMan-List: Trip across country Date: 18 Jul 1999 21:44:16 -0700 I am driving from Oregon to Friendship, Indiana for the NMLRA nationals in September. I will be stopping over in Denver on the way out but have no planned route for the trip back (might swing up through Montana). I would like to see as much fur trade history as possible and especially some original Hawken rifles. Can anyone help me with some known locations where original Hawkens are on display? I plan to try to hit the Museum of the Fur Trade in Nebraska and the Museum of the Mountain Man in Wyoming. Any suggestions for other points of interest would be appreciated. Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trip across country Date: 18 Jul 1999 23:51:06 -0500 You might try Ft Bridger, which is near the SW corner of Wyoming. There = is a good museum in Cody, Wyoming, too. Can't help you with Hawken = rifles. You might find a few other good guns......there were tons of = them. ymos Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, July 18, 1999 11:44 PM > I am driving from Oregon to Friendship, Indiana for the NMLRA = nationals in > September. I will be stopping over in Denver on the way out but have = no > planned route for the trip back (might swing up through Montana). I = would > like to see as much fur trade history as possible and especially some > original Hawken rifles. Can anyone help me with some known locations = where > original Hawkens are on display? I plan to try to hit the Museum of = the Fur > Trade in Nebraska and the Museum of the Mountain Man in Wyoming. Any > suggestions for other points of interest would be appreciated. >=20 > Munroe Crutchley > Grants Pass, OR >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: lead from tin, telling apart Date: 19 Jul 1999 00:06:33 -0500 Cast tin can be told from cast lead easily. When bent slowly, tin 'cries' (yes, it is the official term). The crystals inside are forming dislocations that move in jumps with the stress, and make the characteristic creaking, snapping noise. Lead just bends silently and doesn't even whimper. Rock Looks like Lou will have tin to spare!! Sal Ammoniac is the flux to use, and old hardware stores or sheetmetal shops have it. If anyone needs some, holler. The old zinc and hydrochloric acid flux is good too. Use cotton rags and gloves, or leather gloves are okay but more costly. Old terrycloth or towel on a stick is disposable too. Use this to rub tin and flux inside. Heat with torch, fire, charcoal, you get the idea. Just don't overheat a lot. On the files/knives article, I just copied it and will send it off. Too much typing, and then I couldn't attach it properly as the file was too big to e-mail. Thanks for your patience. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:24:36 -0500 Date: 18 Jul 1999 23:44:39 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BED0FF.5AA42FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Help!! I apparantly I deleted Buck Connor's (Clark & Son) web site. Would = somebody be kind enough to forward it to me? thanks Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BED0FF.5AA42FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Help!!
I apparantly I deleted Buck Connor's (Clark & Son) web = site. =20 Would somebody be kind enough to forward it to me?
thanks
Lanney Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BED0FF.5AA42FA0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:24:36 -0500 Date: 18 Jul 1999 22:47:07 -0700 --------------656682D7E5EB073A9CEB9B9C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here ya go! http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ Frank Ratcliff wrote: > Help!!I apparantly I deleted Buck Connor's (Clark & Son) web site. > Would somebody be kind enough to forward it to me?thanksLanney > Ratcliffrat@htcomp.net --------------656682D7E5EB073A9CEB9B9C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here ya go!

http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/

Frank
 

Ratcliff wrote:

Help!!I apparantly I deleted Buck Connor's (Clark & Son) web site.  Would somebody be kind enough to forward it to me?thanksLanney Ratcliffrat@htcomp.net
--------------656682D7E5EB073A9CEB9B9C-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 18 Jul 1999 14:22:36 -0400 lanny--- remember its quite difficult to teach a old dog new tricks---may have to rename you again to scarface---(GBG) biggest trick is to keep it really sharp and practice the strapping ---get a good arkansas black water stone to edge it out with or keep the edge straight--then staap it befor and after each usage---a dull one cuts more than a sharp one---lots more blood---lots of luck--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies (Super Long) Date: 18 Jul 1999 21:10:19 EDT Jeff, Thanks for responding. Laura kind of killed my thread with her follow up post about handwriting analysis. While you info if not what I wanted to hear, here goes: > The way you described remote trading posts,I have to ask about your > knowledge of the "Old Northwest"(not a flame) I am unaware of even the > remotest post not being situated on a navagable river or stream. If you know > something I don't,please share it with me,I'm here to learn! OK, now I have to ask you the same question about knowledge, but I will seek to prove you wrong. There is much that is "not" written about the fur trade. I am going to answer this part, after I answer the next part. > To show what I'm trying to say,you can can travel from Quebec to New > Orleans by water with only (IIRC) 3 portages and I believe the longest was > around Niagra falls. A back breaking 4-5 mile trot then back to the water > and relatively easy travel. The Chicago Portage is a pearl among industrial parks. The actual site is a National Historic site owned by the Cook Country Forest Preserve District. It consists of about 70 acres, including the original crossing and the property where Laughton's Trading post was located. Mud lake is immediately to the east, and the last remaining riverbed of the original DesPlaines river before it was leveed and diverted. The Chicago Portage was known in ancient times by the Indians, first discovered by Marquette and Jolliet in 1673, and used throughout time by those countries who traded in fur. It was always known as the "Gateway to the West" for obvious reasons. France was able to maintain dominance over it for 27 years until the Fox Wars of 1701-1740 put an end to unchallenged French domination. From about 1700 to 1795 it remained under Indian influence. Following the F&I War, actual French trading influence was terminated, and following Pontiac's rebellion, Indian loyalties turned to the new English masters. British rule was shortlived. During the Rev War, both sides used the Portage. The land was ceded to the new colonial government by the French in 1783. However, ownership was not possession. It took the Battle of Fallen Timbers (1794) and the subsequent Greenville Treaty (1975) to eradicate Indian claims to the region. Jefferson ordered the construction of Fort Dearborn to protect the passage and its inhabitants. Other treaties later reaffirmed its protection and possession. Now, to answer the first part. The actual portage was located on a small divide approximately 10-12 feet above Lake Michigan water level. At wet stage, it could be transversed without even having to touch land. As it got drier, the length of the portage increased, and so did the difficulty. The actual portages, of which there were two, went around Mud Lake, a huge quagmire about 20 miles long. Goods were off loaded at the Chicago river and carried afoot to the DesPlaines. The canoes were alternately, paddled, poled, or drug through the mud; depending on the water level. Additionally, during low water both the DesPlaines and the Illinois rivers were unnavigable, and the canoes had to be floated, drug or carried all the way to Starved Rock where the first deep, unhindered navigable water started. The goods were portaged, or carried on horses, or in wagons pulled by oxen under these low water conditions. This was a distance of 100 miles. You can easily see where your statement about Niagara above is flawed. Here is the breakdown: 1. When high, the DesPlaines overflowed the divide into the Chicago river. No portage was necessary. These conditions were present approx. 48 days per year. 2. As the water level receded to the level of the divide, the portage became one mile long. This lasted approx. 26 days per year. 3. This portage was increased to 1.5 miles when Mud Lake's water level fell to it's normal deep water outline. This lasted for an additional 44 days per year. 4. As the dry season commenced additional portages occurred in the irregular bed of Mud Lake and ultimately required a portage of 7 miles along the north shore of the lake from the Chicago river to Portage Creek. The duration of these conditions varied with the draft of the boats, but did not exceed 103 days. 5. The rest of the year, the lake was either to shallow for passage or was frozen solid. As I said above, this was only the portage itself, and did not include passage downstream to Starved Rock. Now to get to the trading posts themselves. After the War of 1812, the American Fur Co. began to consolidate it's monopoly on the Illinois fur trade. It was under the supervision of Antoine DesChamps from 1817-1724. Hubbard was a clerk for DesChamps and rose in the company to take over as head trader (1824-1835) Also included in the Chicago area trade were John Kinzie, John Crafts, and Jean Beaubien. Trade goods came from the factory at Mackinac, and furs were delivered there. Hubbard was known as "SwiftWalker" by the Indians because he regularly traveled on foot and easily covered 60 miles per day. (documented many times) While a clerk, he thought up the idea of delivering goods to the trading posts rather than having them meet the boats. Things could be distributed much faster and efficiently this way. He had posts in Wisconsin, and down the Illinois border as far as Monticello. His early headquarters were in Danville (my childhood home). Goods were carried to these remote posts by foot with parties of voyageurs carrying packs on their backs. This route became known as "Hubbard's Trail" and later achieved preservation by being the first state route. Today, it is known as Illinois Route 1. There are numerous other trails, seven in all, which radiated out from Chicago to the remote trading posts, and they are all major roads today. As these trails became well worn, goods were transported by horse, and sometimes wagon. In 1833, a treaty was signed in Chicago with the Indians where they gave up their rights to the Illinois country, and they started to vacate the land and move across the Mississippi. This effectively ended the fur trade in Illinois. Since the Indians did ALL the trapping, their removal killed the trade. The Laughton Bros. ran a trading post for the Company in Chicago. By 1835, the trade had dwindled to only $300 per year, and they were forced to run an inn to supplement their income. The whole Illinois trade was dependent on trading posts which were "not" water accessible. I hope you have been enlightened. I suspect this situation was more prevalent in other parts of the country than has been documented. Now, so ya don't think I am a historical genius, I just learned about the geology this weekend. Our group was asked to set up a small encampment for atmosphere at the site this past weekend, while the state ran some guided tours led by a man who has made the Portage site his life's work. While I knew the history part, I didn't know about the geology of the area, and he provided that information. He will be giving the tour again in October, and I will be sure to be in the group who does the walking tour this time. He is a wealth of information. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 18 Jul 1999 18:21:35 -0700 Sickler, Louis L wrote: > Ho the List, > > Maybe you guys can help me........... Lou, Well, I see we have had some input on this subject since I was last up and recieving mail. I'm back from Boise and willing to talk you through it, Lou. Did you get the materials or do you still have questions or do you just want to drop it at this point. I think the point was well made that drinking coffee or what ever out of a copper cup in camp is not going to kill you or make it hard for you to have kids or even remember which rest stop you left them at but copper cups are hard to drink hot liquids out of since they transfer heat so well. I personally like to make myself a camp cup out of the wide end of a nice cow horn with a nice fir, hemlock, or spruce plug in the bottom. With or without a self handle it sure beats a metal cup for drinking enough morning coffee quick enough to get me going. Either way Lou, I'd be glad to help. Let me know where you are at on this now. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 18 Jul 1999 08:43:03 -0700 Brother Lanney, When I met you on the Interstate outside of Denver and delievered your straight razor, strp, etc. never gave it a thought about a few instructions or a good field medical kit, sorry. Here's a few tips that may help if not already tried. Good luck, YF&B Buck SHAVING TIPS: MAKE SURE YOUR SHAVING AREA HAS BEEN THOUROUGHLY MASSAGED WITH HOT WATER APPLY SHAVING SOAP OR SHAVE GEL ONTO THE SHAVING AREA - USE A DECENT BLADE AND STROP IT ON A REGULAR BASIS. SHAVE WITH THE GROWTH OF THE HAIR--ONLY GO AGAINST THE GRAIN AT THE END OF THE SHAVE, AND ONLY THEN IF YOU HAVE TO. (SHAVING AGAINST THE GRAIN OF HAIR GROWTH IS THE MAIN CAUSE OF RAZOR BURN, NICKS AND IRRITATION). SOMETIMES ONE MUST REPEAT STROKES TO AN AREA OR USE SHORT STROKES AND RINSE THE BLADE OFTEN IN HOT WATER. SHAVE IN A DOWNWARD DIRECTION DO NOT PRESS HARD ON THE SHAVE AREA WITH THE BLADE. RINSE THE SHAVEN AREA WITH COOLER WATER AND APPLY AN AFTER SHAVE COLOGNE IMMEDIATELY AFTER SHAVING. SHAVING GEL Ther are several shaving gel's available that have a unique pH balanced, non-lathering formula that lessens razor irritation, while conditioning the skin. Shaving Gel helps your beard stand up for a closer, painless shave. Used daily, the special ingredients soothe the skin, and over time will lessen lines and repair damaged skin. ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. ________________________________________________________ > ----- Original Message ----- > Hello the list > > I recently bought a fine straight razor and a high quality strop from Buck Connor and at the tender age of 52 I am learning how to shave with the thing. So far the results are satisfactory and the two cuts have not required the paramedics but I would appreciate any tips and suggestions regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I would appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and stroping the blade. Do you apply anything to the strop? You know....information. > > Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to admit to any deficit in his knowledge of all things, much less be invited to teach one something, so jump in there with your expertise and help me out here. > > By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony wood handle and a Gerjman solingen blade....worth every nickle of Buck's price. > > YMOS > > Lanney Ratcliff > > ps: Ain't this a better subject than some that we have seen lately? Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Brooks" Subject: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 20 Jul 1999 08:14:24 +1200 >you to have kids or even remember which rest stop you left them at but copper >cups are hard to drink hot liquids out of since they transfer heat so well. To cure this problem put a band aid on the lip where you drink from or glue a thin piece of leather to it instead. You can continue to drink liquids as hot as you like with no problems. Works with tin and copper. Kia Ora Big Bear In dark drizzly Marlborough New Zealand. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 19 Jul 1999 05:56:44 -0500 A good razor hone is my next quest. Thanks Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, July 18, 1999 1:22 PM > lanny--- > remember its quite difficult to teach a old dog new tricks---may have = to > rename you again to scarface---(GBG) biggest trick is to keep it = really > sharp and practice the strapping ---get a good arkansas black water = stone > to edge it out with or keep the edge straight--then staap it befor and > after each usage---a dull one cuts more than a sharp one---lots more > blood---lots of luck--- >=20 > YMHOSANT > =3D+=3D > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com >=20 > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: off topic: covered wagon plans Date: 19 Jul 1999 09:35:27 EDT Greetings List: A fellow living history reenactor and friend is trying to build a covered wagon. He has the tools, and the expertise but does not have plans or dimensions. If any one could help us out with either dimensions, plans or point us in the right direction we would be most appreciative. YMOS Red Hawk (MIA3WOLVES@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: BRAINTANNING ? Date: 19 Jul 1999 12:11:58 -0700 Has anyone had any first hand experience using the method of braintanning described in Mark Baker's tape ? I have always used McPherson's method described in his book, and I have always had good results. The method in Baker's tape seems to be a little quicker and simpler and may be more authentic. Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BRAINTANNING ? Date: 19 Jul 1999 10:41:08 -0700 Larry, Please contact me off line, need some information from you. Thanks Buck buck.conner@uswestmail.net > On Mon, 19 July 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: > > Has anyone had any first hand experience using the method of braintanning > described in Mark Baker's tape ? I have always used McPherson's method > described in his book, and I have always had good results. The method in > Baker's tape seems to be a little quicker and simpler and may be more > authentic. > Pendleton Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 19 Jul 1999 10:53:19 -0700 Tony, If you would please contact me off list about the article you have mentioned, thanks. Need a copy. Buck buck.conner@uswestmail.net > On Sat, 17 July 1999, "northwoods" wrote: > > --Original Message----- > From: Ratcliff > To: History List > Cc: AMM > Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 7:26 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 > > >>I would appreciate any tips and suggestions regarding shaving with a > straight razor. Also, I would appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and > stroping the blade. Do you apply anything to the strop? You > know....information<< > > There was an article on just this subject in the last "Muzzleblasts". > If you can't find a copy i'll send you mine i'm done with it. > > Tony Clark Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:06:29 -0700 The Brooks wrote: > > > To cure this problem put a band aid on the lip where you drink from or glue > a thin piece of leather to it instead. Big Bear, One could also use a plastic cup, or carry a ceramic cup and use aluminum plates and bowls and cook on a Colman Stove with propane and set up a rip-stop nylon tent and, etc. Kinda defeats the whole idea of going primitive if we start using modern aids (band-aids) to help us live through the experience don't it?! No flame intended. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' In sunny warm Central Washington State. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trip across country Date: 19 Jul 1999 14:37:01 EDT Munroe, It might be a bit much of a side trip, but the J.A. Davis Arms and Historical Museum in Claremore, OK (NE of Tulsa) has one of the most incredible collections ever assembled, including original Hawkins. Also, if you do get down that way, the Cowboy Hall of Fame (OKC) and Museum of the Plains Indian (Lawton, OK) are IMHO both worth the time. Barn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Trip Date: 19 Jul 1999 15:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Hey Barn: How about Indian City, Anadarko, Oklahoma ?(S.W. of Oklahoma, City on the way to Lawton.)Cow Boy hall of Fame in O.K.C also. If Monroe makes it to Oklahoma. === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan R Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 19 Jul 1999 21:48:49 +1200 Lanney wrote I would appreciate any tips and suggestions regarding shaving with a straight razor. ,SNIP> I used to use a straight razor to shave hair off Lions and Tigers when we had to operate on them at a local safari park , My suggestion ( based on experience) is to ensure that your subject is well anesthetized before you start shaving YMOS CUTFINGER Friendships made. Problems shared. Campfires across the Wilderness Auckland ,New Zealand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 19 Jul 1999 18:34:07 -0500 read my entire msg.,notice I mention 4-5 mile portages and you consider 2-3 miles(to or on a lake,a navagable waterway!) remote. What gives? >>A back breaking 4-5 mile trot >>then back to the water and relatively easy travel.<<<<< >Some of the posts here in northern WI where not near navigable >rivers or streams at all, they where situated on lakes. It was not >at all uncommon to have portages from 2 to 3 miles, or farther, >between bodies of water. Practically all of the routes traveled by >early traders where situated on water routes and overland trails >that had been pioneered by native americans and had existed for >centuries even millennia. Native americans where not at all averse >to traveling for considerable distances between the "easiest and >most suitable" water routes. My research indicates that they where >also transporting large amounts of goods and materials, not unlike >the later French traders. >Tony Clark Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698 Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies (Super Long) Date: 19 Jul 1999 18:34:12 -0500 Dave,I don't have time for a complete answer to your GREAT POST, but I had forgot the Des Plains-Chicago River. I still don't quite understand why traders would put themselves through the misery when one could use the Fox-Wisconsin rivers and only have to deal with one, at that time short but sometimes swampy portage of about 2-3 miles! I don't have all the answers either,but debates like this show that several can all be correct,we just don't have all the data. BTW,when is this walk going on? Chicago is only 1 1/2 hours away! Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! ARE YOU READY?.......TO MEET THE KING? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 19 Jul 1999 20:57:07 -0500 Kestrel wrote: >>read my entire msg.,notice I mention 4-5 mile portages and you consider 2-3 miles(to or on a lake,a navagable waterway!) remote. What gives?<< I never said I consider 2-3 miles remote. >> I am unaware of even the remotest post not being situated on a navagable river or stream<< I said that some posts weren't on navigable rivers or streams. Some where on lakes. >>To show what I'm trying to say,you can can travel from Quebec to New Orleans by water with only (IIRC) 3 portages and I believe the longest was around Niagra falls. A back breaking 4-5 mile trot then back to the water and relatively easy travel<< Here you say that on a particular route from Quebec to New Orleans you believe that the longest portage is a "back breaking 4-5 miles", and there are only two other portages involved with this route. This may be true. Does it mean that early traders would choose this route over other routes that pherhaps had more or longer portages? I say no. There where many factors in choosing routes of travel. Sometimes many miles overland to a faster waterway actually saved time. Some waterways that appear to be logical routes of travel were not chosen because of factors like lack of game or potable water. >>I still don't quite understand why traders would put themselves through the misery when one could use the Fox-Wisconsin rivers and only have to deal with one, at that time short but sometimes swampy portage of about 2-3 miles!<< It's certainly true that water travel was what made the fur trade possible, however the number and length of portages is not solely what determined the most satisfactory routes of travel or placement of posts. I found this out by studying topographical maps in an attempt to find the most direct and easiest routes between posts, I.E. fewest and shortest portages, then canoeing a few thousand miles looking for sites. Took me a while to figure out that the most direct water routes where not the key. Traveling overland was no big deal under many circumstances. >>If you know something I don't,please share it with me,I'm here to learn!<< That is all I am attempting to do. Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 19 Jul 1999 21:37:13 -0500 Now THAT is good advice!! Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 4:48 AM > Lanney wrote > I would appreciate any tips and suggestions regarding shaving with a > straight razor. > ,SNIP>=20 > I used to use a straight razor to shave hair off Lions and Tigers when = we > had to operate on them at a local safari park , My suggestion ( based = on > experience) is to ensure that your subject is well anesthetized before = you > start shaving >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > YMOS > CUTFINGER > Friendships made. > Problems shared. > Campfires across the Wilderness > Auckland ,New Zealand >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: darlene Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BRAINTANNING ? Date: 20 Jul 1999 22:40:21 -0400 Please take me off the list. I lost how I am suppose to be able to do this. Thank you' At 12:11 PM 7/19/99 -0700, you wrote: >Has anyone had any first hand experience using the method of braintanning >described in Mark Baker's tape ? I have always used McPherson's method >described in his book, and I have always had good results. The method in >Baker's tape seems to be a little quicker and simpler and may be more >authentic. >Pendleton > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 19 Jul 1999 22:39:43 -0400 I offered to help.... D Ratcliff wrote: > Now THAT is good advice!! > Lanney > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straight Razors Date: 19 Jul 1999 20:42:56 -0600 "Ratcliff" asked: > Do you apply anything to the strop? Jeweler's rouge.---Yr humble &c &c, A.G. agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: sam colt Date: 19 Jul 1999 21:52:18 -0500 God made man, Sam Colt made 'em equal. Happy Birthday Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lewis Kevin Raper" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic: covered wagon plans Date: 20 Jul 1999 00:33:09 -0400 Red Hawk Wrote: > Greetings List: > A fellow living history reenactor and friend is trying to build a covered > wagon. He has the tools, and the expertise but does not have plans or > dimensions. If any one could help us out with either dimensions, plans or > point us in the right direction we would be most appreciative. > > YMOS > > Red Hawk > (MIA3WOLVES@aol.com You might try Dollywood in Pigion Forge TN www.dollywood.com They have a really good wagon shop that makes authentic wagons. I have seen their covered wagons fist hand and they are the best. They may be able to help you with plans or parts. Watch yer top knot! Possum Hunter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic: covered wagon plans Date: 20 Jul 1999 00:41:55 EDT also try Panther Primitives. they are now selling a couple of different size wagons. 1.800.487.2684 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 20 Jul 1999 03:19:08 -0500 TONY!,(have I got your attention yet?) >>Some of the posts here in northern WI where not near navigable >>rivers or streams at all, they where situated on lakes. It was not >>at all uncommon to have portages from 2 to 3 miles, or farther, >>between bodies of water. READ THE ARCHIVES THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE(SAID?) "some of the posts here in northern WI where not near navigable rivers or streams at all, they were situated on lakes." IF YOU CAN CANOE IT, IT IS NAVIGABLE. Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698 Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Brooks" Subject: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 21 Jul 1999 08:47:47 +1200 >using modern aids (band-aids) to help us live through the experience don't Capt, Sure do, Thats why I also suggested a leather strip on the lip. Do what I did to beat the heat." Unroll" the rolled lip and force in a bit of thin hide. Bash the lip down again there by holding hide in. Roll hide over lip. saves getting lips burnt. If you get sick of it flapping about. glue down or it can also be held on by drilling cup and holding leather strip each end with a couple of copper nails passed through and peened over. Or if you aren't really that far into authenticity carry part of your first aid kit(Permitted I believe under the " Rules") around the lip of your cup. Hope your weather isn't really as hot as we been hearing about. Temp is a pleasant 70 degreesF at the moment but it should be nearer 40 Degrees F. Tis the middle of winter! Regards Kia Ora Big Bear In warm windy Marlborough New Zealand. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re:MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 20 Jul 1999 07:58:46 -0600 ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: >.. they carried only knives and >tomahawks, and no other weapons. No guns. This is very surprising; in Canada at this time (c. 1812, I gather?), where things were more peaceable, my impression is that they often travelled with two or three muskets in a party, for hunting & defence from bears, wolves, etc. When danger was more immediate, the trading muskets would be broken out for use. >The trader and clerks (3) ate in a separate mess and had tents. > The voyageurs had no shelter except in very bad weather, when they stowed the >trade goods under the canoes and used the tarps, which usually covered the >goods, to fashion shelters using the canoes. This is mostly consistent with voyageurs in Canada at the time, except that I think everyone messed together while travelling. When heavy rains came en route, everyone crammed into the clerks' tent. Otherwise, the voyageurs slept under the overturned canoes. When the voyageurs got to the major rendezvous on Lake Superior, the voyageurs were allowed to sleep in the clerks' tents while the clerks lived in the fort's quarters and dined in the Great Hall. The voyageurs drew modest rations from the kitchen, except for the guides & interpreters, who were allowed to dine with the 'gentlemen'. > Do you suppose they made this [very muddy] portage naked? Yep--just wearing their shirts to keep off the sun & insects. Why get your clothes needlessly covered with mud? In the canoes, everyone was usually "naked from the waist down", as David Thompson once put it, because they were always in the water. >Additionally, he stated that each man carried his personal goods in a linen >bag which was stowed in the canoe. Again, standard practice in the Canadian fur trade was to have a 40-lb bag as a personal baggage allowance for voyageurs. >When traveling afoot to take goods to the >remote trading posts, each man carried a 90 lb pack. In Western Canada at this time, this would be a 90-lb bundle of goods wrapped in Russia sheeting (linen canvas), with two 'ears' of sheeting left at the corners to pull the bundles up by. Once the bundle was on your back, a tump line across the forehead was added. On portages, voyageurs carried two of these bundles (one resting on top of the other), but for long land journeys (very rare in the Canadian fur trade since posts were *always* on rivers or lakes), only one pack would be carried. Could you give the complete info on this book so I can find a copy? It sounds like it could be quite interesting. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: MtMan-List: TIN Date: 20 Jul 1999 08:03:18 -0600 Good Morning All, Thanks for the HUGE response to my question. Just goes to show what a great bunch folks live behind these postings. I'm sorry for posting a question and not responding faster. My only e-mail is at work (mon-fri) and yesterday I was doing some work for the Longmont Museum, so today is my first chance to read your responses. To Capt. Lahti, yes I thought of using some "silver" solder that I use for an occasional stained glass window, but there are no list of other ingredients any where on it and I was afraid of just the thing that Angela stated. I had enough chemistry in college to know that antimony, cadmium, and the like are NOT good for you at all, and that they might be included in this solder. To Barney and Lanney, up until now I've only used them for water and the occasional cold beer, but have had people comment that I was crazy for using them for, say hot chocolate/coffee or Wild Turkey (a personal favorite). I wasn't all that concerned, since I didn't use them on a daily basis, but was interested to try something new (ie. Tinning) so I thought these were a likely candidate for the experiment. Yes, the Turkey probably causes more damage than the copper ever would!!! But copper, etc isn't as much fun, don'cha know. To John, thanks for the ideas on other places to look. I'll keep Canfield's address if'n I need more. To Hawk, I guess I'll take Mike up on his offer, he said he has it all packaged up and ready to go... But thank you very much for your offer as well. And finally to Mike Rock, thanks for the generous offer. I'll send you my address offline. But a pound of tin ought to cost SOME in postage. I feel like I should offer something in return.... Is there anything you need ?? I always have lots of home tanned leather (oil or brain), antlers, or maybe some other hand-made possibles lying about, if you ever need anything, just ask. This goes for the rest of you out there, too. Thank you one and all for some GREAT help. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 20 Jul 1999 08:14:11 -0700 The Brooks wrote: > Hope your weather isn't really as hot as we been hearing about. Temp is a > pleasant 70 degreesF at the moment but it should be nearer 40 Degrees F. Tis > the middle of winter! Kia Ora, It will probably get up around 90 degrees F here in eastern WA. by mid afternoon. That isn't really very hot for this part of the state. It gets quit a bit warmer from time to time. We're somewhat used to it. All kidding aside, I do recommend a horn cup. They are easy to make with or without a handle (the handle of mine finally broke off so I just use a thong through two little holes on one side) and will deal equally well with hot or cold liquids. I like to use two part resorcinol glue to get a permanent fit to the plug/bottom but a well fitted bottom that has been put in with the horn hot and then pinned in place should work just fine too. Sure wish I could visit your island some day. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 Date: 20 Jul 1999 10:44:44 -0500 A few years ago an heirloom razor was passed down to me. Not content with having the thing tucked away in a drawer, I decided to use it. Not knowing enough about sharpening and honing, I left it at a barber shop where a professional sharpener came around peiodically and sharpened their scissors, etc. When I got it back, I soaked my stubble and applied the shaving soap from a mug I had also bought. I nervously steadied my nerves to shave with the thing. As I drew it across my cheek, as each hair was severed I heard a high pitched ping accompanied with a sharp impulse of pain. I quickly decided the heirloom was too precious to use for shaving. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ratcliff > To: History List > Cc: AMM > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 5:25 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 > 19:25:47 -0500 > > Hello the list > I recently bought a fine straight razor and a > high quality strop from Buck Connor and at the > tender age of 52 I am learning how to shave with > the thing. So far the results are satisfactory > and the two cuts have not required the paramedics > but I would appreciate any tips and suggestions > regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I > would appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and > stroping the blade. Do you apply anything to the > strop? You know....information. > > Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to > admit to any deficit in his knowledge of all > things, much less be invited to teach one > something, so jump in there with your expertise > and help me out here. > > By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony > wood handle and a Gerjman solingen blade....worth > every nickle of Buck's price. > > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff > ps: Ain't this a better subject than some that we > have seen lately? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic: covered wagon plans Date: 20 Jul 1999 12:35:29 -0500 Covered wagons are not necessarily off topic. Alfred Jacob Miller painted many of them from his 1836? travels to the west. I seem to remember that they were mostly the two-wheeled variety, but I will check. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner Lewis Kevin Raper wrote: > > Red Hawk Wrote: > > > Greetings List: > > A fellow living history reenactor and friend is trying to build a covered > > wagon. He has the tools, and the expertise but does not have plans or > > dimensions. If any one could help us out with either dimensions, plans or > > point us in the right direction we would be most appreciative. > > > > YMOS > > > > Red Hawk > > (MIA3WOLVES@aol.com > > You might try Dollywood in Pigion Forge TN www.dollywood.com They have a > really good wagon shop that makes authentic wagons. I have seen their > covered wagons fist hand and they are the best. They may be able to help you > with plans or parts. > Watch yer top knot! Possum Hunter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic: covered wagon plans Date: 20 Jul 1999 11:25:39 -0700 The Oregon-California Trails Association (OCTA) puts out a quarterly magazine that a few issues back had a excellent article about emigrant wagons. The article took two issues to complete. It had drawings and measurements of most of the critical parts of the wagon. The author would be a good contact for someone who is thinking about constructing a wagon. You can order the magazine from OCTA, they have a web page: http://calcite.rocky.edu/octa/octahome.htm gail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James A Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 20 Jul 1999 13:53:04 -0500 I always thought that it was interesting at the end of Michael Curot's (sp?) log of being on the Yellow River (present day Wisconsin) in 1803-4, that when they left in the spring they stopped to visit an indian village by what is now Spooner Lake, to do this they went up the Namakogon River. Spooner Lake is the headwaters of the Yellow River, but was muddy before a dam was put in. Also the Namakogon is a bigger river than the Yellow. So it must have been easier to paddle up there and then walk about 6 miles down to Spooner Lake. I hope I have most of the facts right, I have a copy of the journal at home. Being from Spooner originally I find this fascinating, and will be going to the Rendezvous at the site of the Yellow River forts. Curot worked for the XY compnay who built their trading post right next to the NW fort. Currently the site has been rebuilt after finding the burnt remains underground. If anyone from the list is going up, I will probably be in the back field with a wedge tent. Look for my sign with the Blue Heron on it and stop in and say hi. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: razor stropping Date: 20 Jul 1999 14:15:15 -0700 -Lanney, As promised here's more information, in process of doing an article on shaving and equipage for the T&LR journal. Later YF&B Buck ______________________________________________________ Here's some information from Arthur Boon; STROPPING TECHNIQUE Strop only before shaving, after the edge could 'grow' for at least 24 hours, but preferably 48 hours. If you strop the edge immediately after shaving, the misaligned microserrations behave as a burr, which will break off and penetrate the leather, which will turn into sandpaper. If you honed just before stropping, clean the blade with water and soap and dry with a cloth without touching the edge; this too is to prevent small metal parts to get stuck into the strop, which can damage the edge while stropping. Keep the tang between index finger and thumb and keep those fingers stretched. Place the blade flat on the strop. In case of a hanging strop, keep it under tension continuously, because if you let it hang through, you will create a round and therefore blunt cutting edge. Pull the blade over the strop away from the cutting edge and in the direction of the back. If you strop the other way in the direction of the edge (which is the case during honing), you will cut through the strop, or you will cause knicks which will damage the razor. In the course of this stroke, take care that the complete cutting edge has touched the strop. The pressure of the knife on the strop should not exceed the weight of the knife, to prevent rounding and thus blunting the cutting edge. At the end of the stroke, keep the blade in contact with the strop, and swing the blade 180 degrees, causing it to rotate around the back; the back should keep in contact with the strop. Then do a stroke in the other direction. Repeat this about 10-60 times. Do this procedure first on the canvas (about 10 times) next on the leather. ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. ________________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Arms Date: 20 Jul 1999 17:06:14 -0600 Friends, I need help for a friend/museum director. He needs to find out: 1. What types of firearms were Spaniards using, in terms of muskets and pistols in the Spanish Borderlands (American Southwest) about 1780. Did they use primarily Spanish-made guns? I suspect, being a colonial backwater as this area was, they might have been issued surplus guns, but perhaps I'm mistaken. 2. Are there any companies making repro firearms of the ones Spaniards used at that time in that place? I know of a couple being used, like Brown Bess and Charliville (sp), but I am not sure the Spanish were buying from Britain or France, unless they were traded as contraband. TIA HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal Date: 20 Jul 1999 17:18:17 -0500 Ratcliff wrote: > > You are almost right, Snakeshot. Gauge is determined by the number of round, bore diameter LEAD balls required to weight a pound. 20 gauge = 20 round lead balls to the pound....about .62 caliber. Caliber is the diameter of the bore expressed in 1/100's of an inch. 50 caliber = .5 inch.....that is 50/100's inch or one half inch, Denise. > Lanney Ratcliff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bishnow > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 5:07 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal > > > Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote: > > > > > > It's the age old question. Probably been discussed here before. What's the > > > similarity between gauge and calibre? Is a 20 gauge the same as a .54? > > .58 calibre is 20 gauge. If I am wrong about this please someone > > correct me. But, guage is the measure of the number of steel balls > > that diameter that it takes to make 1 pound. 20 gauge would take > > 20 steel balls .58 dia. to make one pound. this may not be true > > any more but I read it somewhere once. > > > > Snakeshot > > I don't know what I was thinking. After I read my own post I remembered that was why I put .62 balls in my 20ga. Snakeshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 20 Jul 1999 21:51:31 -0500 Hey chickenhawk, Obviously you have an inability to differentiate between a lake, river and a stream. I won't bother the list trying to explain it to you. If you contact me off list I would be more than happy to. Tony Clark -----Original Message----- > >TONY!,(have I got your attention yet?) > >>Some of the posts here in northern WI where not near navigable > >>rivers or streams at all, they where situated on lakes. It was not > >>at all uncommon to have portages from 2 to 3 miles, or farther, > >>between bodies of water. > >READ THE ARCHIVES THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE(SAID?) > "some of the posts here in northern WI where not near navigable rivers or >streams at all, they were situated on lakes." >IF YOU CAN CANOE IT, IT IS NAVIGABLE. > > > Jeff Powers > A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! > "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin > 1698 > >Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Haught" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic: covered wagon plans Date: 20 Jul 1999 23:25:06 -0400 Foxfire #2 and #9 have chapters regarding building a horse drawn wagon. -mwh > >Red Hawk Wrote: > > Greetings List: > A fellow living history reenactor and friend is trying to build a covered > wagon. He has the tools, and the expertise but does not have plans or > dimensions. If any one could help us out with either dimensions, plans or > point us in the right direction we would be most appreciative. > > YMOS > Red Hawk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 20 Jul 1999 23:51:05 EDT slings and arrows from Boise. I just got back from our local rendezvous "Buckskin Bill" near Cascade, ID (about 75 miles to the north), and what do I find, insults. That's just un-neighborly! Okay, okay all joking aside, I am pretty wired! I'm not sure how other groups dole out "Mountain man names", but I received mine this last weekend.. My best friend was one of the segundos and Because of some odd mishap(s) when we were camping and hunting over the last few years, I was named "Sleeps Loudly" Y'all can do whatever you want with that. He was much kinder than he coulda' been. So instead of signing off as Grizz from now on, I'll just ZZZZZZZZZZZZ That's all for now, ymhs Sleeps loudly, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 20 Jul 1999 21:18:27 -0700 WSmith4100@aol.com wrote: So instead of signing off as Grizz from now on, I'll just ZZZZZZZZZZZZ That's all for now, ymhs > Sleeps loudly, > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, Well it is easier to type! I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: RE Dave Kanger post on Old Northwest Portage from Chicago Date: 21 Jul 1999 01:16:30 -0500 Dave, Another good book is 'Chicago and the Old Northwest, 1673-1835, A stud of the evolution of the northwestern frontier, together with a history of Fort Dearborn', by Milo Milton Quaife, Ph.D, Univ. of chicago Press, 1913. Picked this up from Smokey for $US135, and it was a good deal. If you and Angela want to arm wrestle for first borrow rights, let me know. It has a lot on the thread, and is well researched and annotated. I usually let books out for a month, then start hunting. You two, let me know if you want to read this one. Bunches more books here, too. rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Arms Date: 20 Jul 1999 23:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Henry, Don't know if this will help, but since some of us are at La Purisima Mission here in California, I have a little bit of info for you that might help. I know that it was documented that at La Purisima in around 1823-1827 they had Brown Bess muskets (I'm not sure which model they carried, but could fine out if needed.) Also, Santa Ana's troops carried 3rd Model Brown Bess Muskets. Knowing these pieces of information, I guess you could extrapolate that in 1780, they would possible have also had surplus muskets (maybe 1st Model Brown Bess?) I will see what I can find out from the people who run La Purisima. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 05:06 PM 7/20/99 -0600, you wrote: >Friends, > >I need help for a friend/museum director. He needs to find out: > >1. What types of firearms were Spaniards using, in terms of muskets and >pistols in the Spanish Borderlands (American Southwest) about 1780. Did >they use primarily Spanish-made guns? I suspect, being a colonial >backwater as this area was, they might have been issued surplus guns, but >perhaps I'm mistaken. > >2. Are there any companies making repro firearms of the ones Spaniards used >at that time in that place? I know of a couple being used, like Brown Bess >and Charliville (sp), but I am not sure the Spanish were buying from >Britain or France, unless they were traded as contraband. > >TIA > >HBC > >**************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 >Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 >806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 21 Jul 1999 03:25:57 -0500 >Hey chickenhawk, >Obviously you have an inability to differentiate between a lake, >river and a stream. I KNOW perfectly well the Difference between a lake,stream and river. i ALSO KNOW THE SAME COMMON DENOMINATOR OF ALL 3,at some time of each and every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they couldn't use them on lakes and had to make 200,300 mile or longer trips over land. Your entire arguement is based on a desire to deny the use of navagable water OF ANY KIND. I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back. READ THE JOURNALS OF THE TRADERS THAT TRAVELED THIS COUNTRY,WATER TRAVEL WAS THE PREFERRED METHOD,if you can document primary sources of period traders going overland instead of by water,post it. Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! Give me a woman who truly loves beer,and I will conquer the world! Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 21 Jul 1999 07:23:27 -0700 Boys, with water ways in the lower 48 in our time, (now) most of them are poor for making any distance on without having to portage every once and awhile. Have followed the L&C foot steps for a long period of time. Have done everything but the Columbia River in crossing this land, one 28 day trip from Ft. Morgan CO to Ft. deChartre IL (1260 miles on the river) showed us just how many portages are now needed. On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages of a few 100 yards to a mile or so depending on the irrigation project encountered, a problem not experienced until this century, what will the next one hold ! You mentioning "navagable", hell we have seen the Platte and the Missouri at this point in early and late summer, anymore passable water is not a given. Have some great pictures of dragging a 20 foot canoe with a 600 lb. payload in a few inches of water on both rivers. We have walked and pulled canoes for miles in trying to get to St. Louis with prime plews. > every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it > is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so > much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they The condition of modern man does very poorly at carrying large loads any distance, our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers, most folks today couldn't pickup their own body weight - no less 200-300 lb. loads as we read about. > I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk > at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back. I can completely understand what both of you are saying and really don't know how to have you two settle your points of view, other than maybe just moving on to another subject. Take care YF&B Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 21 Jul 1999 09:57:35 -0500 well said, buck. Long John -----Original Message----- >Boys, with water ways in the lower 48 in our time, (now) most of them are poor for making any distance on without having to portage every once and awhile. > >Have followed the L&C foot steps for a long period of time. Have done everything but the Columbia River in crossing this land, one 28 day trip from Ft. Morgan CO to Ft. deChartre IL (1260 miles on the river) showed us just how many portages are now needed. On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages of a few 100 yards to a mile or so depending on the irrigation project encountered, a problem not experienced until this century, what will the next one hold ! > >You mentioning "navagable", hell we have seen the Platte and the Missouri at this point in early and late summer, anymore passable water is not a given. Have some great pictures of dragging a 20 foot canoe with a 600 lb. payload in a few inches of water on both rivers. We have walked and pulled canoes for miles in trying to get to St. Louis with prime plews. > >> every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it >> is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so >> much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they > >The condition of modern man does very poorly at carrying large loads any distance, our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers, most folks today couldn't pickup their own body weight - no less 200-300 lb. loads as we read about. > >> I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk >> at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back. > >I can completely understand what both of you are saying and really don't know how to have you two settle your points of view, other than maybe just moving on to another subject. > >Take care >YF&B >Buck Conner >AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: "navagable" water ways Date: 21 Jul 1999 08:45:14 -0700 Left out something: On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages "PER DAY". sorry for missing that. Buck > On Wed, 21 July 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Boys, with water ways in the lower 48 in our time, (now) most of them are poor for making any distance on without having to portage every once and awhile. > > Have followed the L&C foot steps for a long period of time. Have done everything but the Columbia River in crossing this land, one 28 day trip from Ft. Morgan CO to Ft. deChartre IL (1260 miles on the river) showed us just how many portages are now needed. On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages of a few 100 yards to a mile or so depending on the irrigation project encountered, a problem not experienced until this century, what will the next one hold ! > > You mentioning "navagable", hell we have seen the Platte and the Missouri at this point in early and late summer, anymore passable water is not a given. Have some great pictures of dragging a 20 foot canoe with a 600 lb. payload in a few inches of water on both rivers. We have walked and pulled canoes for miles in trying to get to St. Louis with prime plews. > > > every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it > > is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so > > much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they > > The condition of modern man does very poorly at carrying large loads any distance, our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers, most folks today couldn't pickup their own body weight - no less 200-300 lb. loads as we read about. > > > I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk > > at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back. > > I can completely understand what both of you are saying and really don't know how to have you two settle your points of view, other than maybe just moving on to another subject. > > Take care > YF&B > Buck Conner > AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 21 Jul 1999 13:56:17 EDT > Could you give the complete info on this book so I can find a copy? It > sounds like it could be quite interesting. Angela, Good correlations....thanks. Often what is unwritten in a journal leaves us to wonder, but it may have just been omitted. For instance, the guns...it was specifically mentioned that the voyageurs carried no firearms and the chief trader carried a Manton shotgun, but I think there were others traveling with the group who may have had guns. Perhaps, guides or interpreters who were part of the company but not specifically mentioned. I'm going from memory....I should have taken notes until I can purchase a copy for myself, but he talked of the coming into the trading posts. They stopped a ways away, cleaned up, and put on their finest clothes. A specific description of the voyageur's finest was included. They also hung flags and various trade goods and clothes from the sail masts. Then they arrived at the post with much flair and excitement, volleys from shore, etc. They left the same way, and I think he said that the voyageurs then stripped down to their working clothes. I got the impression they wore a shirt and some baggy, loose knee trousers rather than breechclouts. If you go to http://bibliofind.com and enter gurdon saltonstall hubbard into the key word search, you will come up with both his autobiography and the book called "SwiftWalker." Swiftwalker is an expanded version of his autobiography supplemented with additional information from his personal papers and other local history sources. The autobiography is just a narrative of his time as a clerk and trader in Chicago. Both books are out of print. Prices ranged from $7.50 and up. Both are good additions to one's library. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 21 Jul 1999 14:26:48 EDT With all you getting upset over this bill, just know this is just one of many that have come this way. The one on a national front that is fighting these is the National Trappers Assn. If this really upsets you and you really enjoy reliving the era that help discover this country, then I simply ask, Are you a member of the National Trappers Assn. and if not Why? I'm a life member myself, I don't walk both sides. You either help save our heritage or you help it to die. There's no in-between. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE Dave Kanger post on Old Northwest Portage from Date: 21 Jul 1999 14:58:47 EDT Mike Rock writes: > If you and Angela want to arm wrestle for first borrow rights, let me know. It > has a lot on the thread, and is well researched and annotated. I > usually let books out for a month, then start hunting. You two, let me > know if you want to read this one. Mike, A very kind offer which I may take you up on this winter. Angela can have first dibs if she wants to read it now. I have some guns I need to get finished between now and Fall, and I work on them most evenings. I read the Hubbard books cause Deb got them on interlibrary loan and they were a quick read. Speaking of books.....I just added a few more for sale to my website, mostly dealing with the Plains and Overland eras. http://oldfoxtraders.com Then products/misc/books. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Date: 21 Jul 1999 15:47:31 EDT Just got back from the Kit Carson musuem in Taos, N.M. I have always heard there were no women at rendezvous, but they had a list of Kit's travels even showing where he had left his child. The list as writen would have you believe that his first and second wife traveled with him on his trap lines and to rendezvous. How about it? TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Date: 21 Jul 1999 16:00:51 EDT In a message dated 7/21/1999 12:53:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, TrapRJoe@aol.com writes: > The list as writen would have you > believe that his first and second wife traveled with him on his trap lines > and to rendezvous. would that be the same as taking a sandwich to a banquet? Barn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 21 Jul 1999 17:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Don't trap and not a member of the NTA, but I did write my senators and asked them not only to vote against it but to come and attend the next rendezvous down here in Ga. in Oct. and relive a part of the Fur Trade era. The rep. wrote me a very nice letter back and thanked me. The dem. did nothing. At 02:26 PM 7/21/99 EDT, you wrote: >With all you getting upset over this bill, just know this is just one of many >that have come this way. The one on a national front that is fighting these >is the National Trappers Assn. If this really upsets you and you really >enjoy reliving the era that help discover this country, then I simply ask, >Are you a member of the National Trappers Assn. and if not Why? I'm a life >member myself, I don't walk both sides. You either help save our heritage or >you help it to die. There's no in-between. > > > TrapRJoe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Date: 21 Jul 1999 17:49:38 -0500 Carson married Josepha Jaramillo in February 1843, which was after the last rendezvous. Of course there were plenty native American women at some of the rendezvous. In his autobiography, Carson doesn't say anything about his two native American wives and his children from them. Back then, having a native wife was not socially acceptable to some. Indeed, when I first visited the Carson museum about 12 years ago, there was no mention of these other wives. When I asked a matronly museum volunteer about that, she coyly implied that they were'nt really wives. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner -----Original Message----- >Just got back from the Kit Carson musuem in Taos, N.M. I have always heard >there were no women at rendezvous, but they had a list of Kit's travels even >showing where he had left his child. The list as writen would have you >believe that his first and second wife traveled with him on his trap lines >and to rendezvous. > >How about it? > >TrapRJoe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 21 Jul 1999 18:22:24 -0500 -----Original Message----- Buck, Sorry to put you and the rest of the good folks on the list through our ... faaailure...tocommunicate. I 've read enough first hand accounts to want to do more than talk about the water routes these early traders used. I to have traveled literally thousands of miles over the very routes they used. Talk about dragging canoes through shallow water,I know what thats like!, my canoe can carry 1100# never had it quite that heavy, but close on a few trips, heading down a river was always a real adventure (going up was a pain in the arse). Sometimes you never knew what you where going to encounter. Some of my most memorable trips where on Superior itself. Beautiful country but very unforgiving to those who aren't careful and prepared. Sometimes that isn't enough. The main point I was trying to make to Kestrel took me a few years of traveling these water routes to discover, and it's the simple fact that the water route with the fewest portages does not make nessacarily the best route. Example: There was an American Fur Company post on lake Le Vieux Desert to the north of me. This was an ideal location for a post (the closest town is called Watersmeet, they really do here) because 2 miles to the north the Ontanogan River flowed into Superior,The Wisconsin River flowed out of the lake it being its headwaters, to the east was the Brule R which flowed into the Menominee which then went to Lake Michigan. For laughs I decided to try to find the routes the traders took from La Vieux Desert to Lake Superior.Logic told me it was the Ontanogan which was only a 60 mile trip with no portages in high water. I was wrong. The routes that where primarily used where MOSTLY portages. One of the routes I eventually found on an original map and it started off with a portage which had 120 "pauses"! I'm not sure how far a pause is, but it was a looong way to portage. Why did they choose routes that had so many portages? I believe it may have been because many times they did not have extremely large loads to transport, after all we aren't talking about the Athabascan country. Compared to that these posts in WI where relatively close to the Forts that resupplyed them, maybe they where supplied several times a season. I also think other factors as simple as the bugs being bad(or other very mundane reasons) effected the use of certain routes.If EVERY factor was equal obviously the quickest route that required the least amount of work was used, but until a person attempts to follow in the footsteps of these early travelers they have NO idea the factors that are involved. Even after reading about it. Like the remark you made about the condition of modern man, "our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers" that was well said but I have lots of fun and plenty of great memories trying to emulate them as I am sure you also do! Take care, Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Date: 21 Jul 1999 16:16:24 -0700 TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > Just got back from the Kit Carson musuem in Taos, N.M. I have always heard > there were no women at rendezvous, TrapRJoe, Who the hell you been talk'in to boy? No women at Rendezvous? Most consarnded thing I ever heard of. Of course there were women at rendezvous, hundreds of them and that's a fact. Now if'n your meaning white women, now that's another story. There were of course hundreds of indian and half-breed women (french/indian or metis from the Lakes and Canada areas along with the indigenous indian women of the tribes friendly to the Trapping Companies and their employees. As to white women, I believe that Narsisa Whitman and perhaps a couple other missionary wives were the first white women to be reported at rendezvous. I don't remember the particular year but it was 1837 or later when they came through with their husbands on the way to minister to the Nez Perce in particular. This is all pretty general info and I am sure there are those who can elaborate but yup, there were lots of women at rendezvous. I remain........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Date: 21 Jul 1999 22:25:23 EDT White, women, missionaries in the mid-1830s. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 21 Jul 1999 22:54:17 -0400 Good point... pls send me the URL for them... Addison -----Original Message----- >With all you getting upset over this bill, just know this is just one of many >that have come this way. The one on a national front that is fighting these >is the National Trappers Assn. If this really upsets you and you really >enjoy reliving the era that help discover this country, then I simply ask, >Are you a member of the National Trappers Assn. and if not Why? I'm a life >member myself, I don't walk both sides. You either help save our heritage or >you help it to die. There's no in-between. > > > TrapRJoe > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: razor stropping Date: 21 Jul 1999 21:53:54 -0500 THIS I have printed and saved to several files. It is the information I = needed. Thanks, Buck. I hope you sell a pile of these = razors.......refer 'em to me if you like. YMOS Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Cunningham Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 4:15 PM > -Lanney, >=20 > As promised here's more information, in process of doing an article on = shaving and equipage for the T&LR journal. >=20 > Later > YF&B > Buck > ______________________________________________________ > Here's some information from Arthur Boon; >=20 > STROPPING TECHNIQUE > Strop only before shaving, after the edge could 'grow' for at least 24 > hours, but preferably 48 hours. If you strop the edge immediately = after > shaving, the misaligned microserrations behave as a burr, which will > break off and penetrate the leather, which will turn into sandpaper. = If > you honed just before stropping, clean the blade with water and soap = and > dry with a cloth without touching the edge; this too is to prevent = small > metal parts to get stuck into the strop, which can damage the edge = while > stropping. Keep the tang between index finger and thumb and keep those > fingers stretched. Place the blade flat on the strop. In case of a > hanging strop, keep it under tension continuously, because if you let = it > hang through, you will create a round and therefore blunt cutting = edge. > Pull the blade over the strop away from the cutting edge and in the > direction of the back. If you strop the other way in the direction of > the edge (which is the case during honing), you will cut through the > strop, or you will cause knicks which will damage the razor. In the > course of this stroke, take care that the complete cutting edge has > touched the strop. The pressure of the knife on the strop should not > exceed the weight of the knife, to prevent rounding and thus blunting > the cutting edge. At the end of the stroke, keep the blade in contact > with the strop, and swing the blade 180 degrees, causing it to rotate > around the back; the back should keep in contact with the strop. Then = do > a stroke in the other direction. Repeat this about 10-60 times. Do = this > procedure first on the canvas (about 10 times) next on the leather. > ________________________________________________________ =20 > Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of = the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: =20 > =20 > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 =20 > ATTN: Jon Link =20 > =20 > The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two = years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. =20 > ________________________________________________________ =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Arms Date: 21 Jul 1999 22:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Henry, Talked to George Thompson, Capitain of the AMM this evening, who is also a docent at La Purisima Mission and I was mistaken about the Brown Bess Muskets at La Purisima in the 1820s. George said that the reason they had Brown Bess Muskets on display was because the correct guns were stolen and this is what they got to replace them. They picked Brown Bess Muskets because they were just about everywhere during that time period. He told me that the guns that they did have were Miguelet (I hope I spelled it right) Muskets, which were made in Spain. George told me that one of our AMM Brothers (Carl Herder) actually has an original and that another (Joe Curtis) has made reproductions in the past. If you would like, I will get their numbers because they are not on the net to my knowledge. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: The long awaited, ***Old Files to New Knives, copied from the original.*** Date: 22 Jul 1999 02:04:59 -0500 I have not been able to contact Jim Kelly, my friend, and author of this article. He works for Rolled Alloys, in Michigan, and is an excellent metallurgist, blackpowder shooter, and amateur smith. I don't think he will use a skinning knife of me, and this is an excellent article. Mike Rock Old Files and New Knives Jim Kelly, January, 1987 "Used files are the handies source of high carbon steel available to the home craftsman. treat them right and they'll make wood chisels finer than any on the market, as well as excellent knives. But, if you forge them like mild steel and heat reat carelessly, the result can be brittle tools with crumbly edges. Doing it right means forging and hardening from controlled, moderate to low temperature. First, some light background in steel metallurgy. Most of you know that steel is hardened by heating to red heaat, then quenching in oil or water. Do this to low carbon steel and nothing much happens. It will remain rather soft. This is because steel must have a certain amount of carbon in it before it will harden. Very roughly speaking, the higher the carbon, the higher the as quenched hardness and wear resistance, but the lower in toughness. Some examples. Commonly available cold drawn steel is generally AISI 1018. The '10' means plain carbon steel, and the '18' means a nominal 0.18%by weight carbon content. Heat this steel red hot, quench in cold water and it will harden a little, but not enough to be useful. Normally the only heattrreatment done to 1018 would be to case carburize it. Commonmachine shafting, axles, and some modern shotgun barrels are AISI 1035 (nominally 0.35% carbon). This steel responds to heat treatment. If small pieces are water quenched, and then tempered peacock blue, they will attain a spring hardness (but, no, this does not mean that 1035 is useful spring steel). AISI 1060 (0.55 to 0.65% carbon) is used for sledge hammers and cold shisels, shich must be hard, yet take a beating. As the carbon content of steel increases, the as- quenched hardness also increases, up to a level of about 0.6% carbon. Above this, higher carbon increases hardness (that is, resistance to being dented) onlyu slightly> But wear resistance does continue to improve with sill higher carbon, above 0.6%. The excess carbon can form many fine, hard iron carbide particles which help retain sharp edges and resist abrasion. Common wood saws and older power lawnmower blades are AISI 1070 to 1080 (0.7 to 0.8% carbon). Axes are 1086 and str drills are 1095. 1095, with carbon ranging from 0.90 to 1.03%, is the highest carbon plain carbon steel you can find in steel warehouses. Since the beginning of this decade Nicholson/Black Diamond files have been 1095. 1095 steel makes good general purpose knives, daggers, firesteels and wood working tools. Back to files. Obviously, file teeth must be extremely hard and wear resistant to stay sharp while cutting metal. For centureis, files have been made of either soft iron, which is then case hardened, or high carbon steel. Even high carbon steel files may be coated with some mixure to lightly case harden them. Thisis so the razor fine cutting edge dosn't burn off when heated cherry red to harden it. In 'The Thirteenth Book of Narural Magik', 1589, G.B. Della Porta describes 'ways whereby Iron may be made extream hard'. To harden files he says: 'Take Ox hoofs, and put them nto an oven to dry, that they may be powdered fine; mingle well one part of this with as much common salt, beaten glass, and chimney-soot, and beat them together, and lay them up for your use in a wooden vessel hanging in the smoak; for the salt will melt with any moisture on the place, or air. The powder being prepared, make your Iron like to a file; then cut it chequerwise, and crosswayes, with a sharp edged tool: having made the Iron tender and soft, as I said, then make an Iron chest fit to lay up your files in, and put them into it, strewing on the powder by course, that they may be covered aoll ocer: then put on the cover, and lute will the chinks with clay and straw, that the smoak of the powder may not breath out; and lay a heap of burning coals all over it, that if may be red-hot about an hour:when you think the powder to be burnt and consumed, take the chest out from the coals with Iron pincers, and plunge the files into very cold water, and so they will become extream hard. This is the usual temper for files; for we fear not if the files should be wrested by cold waters.' This four hundred year old process is metallurgically entirely correct. The chimner soot, of course, is a nearly pure source of carbon the carburize or case harden the surface. 'Ox hoofs', along with carbon, provide nitrogen which further improves sliding wear resistance. Salt and glass melt the whole mess together to provide intimate contact with the iron. They also probably catalyse or enable the high temperature chemical reactions which get the carbon into the iron. And, even today the 'usual temper for files' is just as they come from the quench, with no further reheat(or draw). Until recent years when the EPA became overly concerned, modern practice was to coat high carbon steel files with a roughly similar mixture before hardening from a protective lead bath [heated quite red, to provide the heat--lead is a commonly used heat treat heating bath, as is molten salt--Mike]. The moder version of Ox hoofs is potassium ferrocyanide (K4Fe (CN)6. This is mixed with flour and bone black, and all are boiled together in salt water. Both files and rasps were coated with this 'cyanide loaf'. Rasps still are, as it is necessary to case harden the 1035 steel from which they are made. While the currently used 1095 processes into a very good file, I suggest you get ahold of pre-1980 files to make the best edge holding tools. These older files will be of 1.2 to 1.4% carbon steel, which is higher carbon than van be found anywhere else. Other than your memory there a couple of ways of telling which are the older files. One is that files marked only 'Black Diamond' were made in 1975 or earlier, and are difinitely 10130 (1.3% carbon) steel. After that year the manufacturer stamped 'Black Diamond' on one side and 'Nicholson' on the other. The other idstinction is the tang. It used tobe that to same metal the tangs were hot'rolled from the file bland with little waste. [these tangs generally taper BOTH in length AND thickness--Mike] By 1978 it was more economical to use a longer blank and shear off metal to form the tang. [these tangs taper only in the length--Mike]. A sheared tang will appear obviously different than a hot rolled tang. The ultra high carbon of these older files makes the steel capable of taking and holding a razor edge and suits it for the very finest of wood cutting tools. This high carbon also makes the steel more tricky to forge and heat threa than, say, an AISI 1070 spring steel. If you overheat and coarsen the grain of your file steel it will not be capable of taking the finest edge. That old Nicholson file in your scrap bod was heated for about five minutes in a molten lead bath at 1440 Degrees F., quenched in brine to get maximum hardness, and then NOT tempered at all. Let's do the simplest job first, and make a straight wood chisel or wood turning tool out of that old file. Most commercially available wood chisels ae not eally meant either to take or hold a fine edge. The best on the maker these days are, sad to say, Japanese, such as Oiichi or Iyoroi. Well, you can match these chisels. Just grind your file to the shape you want, usually with a 25 to 30 degree bevel. Use plenty of water so not to soften it, or, worse yet, crack it. The best bet is to first scrub off all old oil and grease. This is necessary to preserve domestic tranquility as you are about to temper the thing at 350 degrees in Wife's oven, for a good hour. This will relieve a lot of internal stress 9like taking one small glass of wine) and prevent the fine edge from chipping. The safest thing to do is temper before you grind it to shape, so it is less likely to crack in grinding. I suggest 300-350 degrees F, which is very light straw. After tempering for an hour the straw may deepen somewhat. Do not trust the temperature settings on kitchen ovens, try a scrap piece first and go by the temper color, or by a Tempilstik. You now have a wood chisel which willhold as good or better edge than anything on the market today. This choice of seel and temper will not make a good bowie knife, although it would be great for a skinning knife. That 350 degree F temper leaves the metal rather too brittle to handle the rough use of our average camp knife. A skinning knife must hold a good edge through a lot of cutting. Hopefully, you all won't use your skinning knives to chop wood, bone and tin cans as well. For bowies, daggers and firesteels I'd first suggest using a post-1980 file of 1095 steel. This will still hold a good edge but be a little tougher than the older 10130 steel. Temper a bit before grinding to shape. For most knives I suggest tempering at 500 degrees F. Thatis a mottled brown to purple temper color. Again, I'd use the household oven for about an hour. And don't trust the temperature setting on that dial! We have about come to the point where we've gotta get serious about temperature measurement. Pyrometers, thermocouples and electronically controlled electric heat treat furnaces ust aren't in your budget, are they? Do forget about judging temperature, at red heat, by eye. Even professional heat treaters can be off by 200 degrees F when checked against the cold, unfriendly pyrometers. Well, there is hope for the low budget shop. That is, an inexpensive and very accurate metod of temperature measurement, called a Tempilstik. This thing is a calibrated crayon. Let's say you sprung $6 or so for a 500 degree f temperature indicating crayon. First, mark your workpiece with this crayon. Heat the etal. The crayon mark will change color, that means nothing. But, as soon as the metal reaches 500 degrees F, that dry opaque mark will change to a distinct melted mark. Really, you should also mark it with a 525 degree F Tempilstif so you will know if it got too hot. These things are easy to use and they are accurate. The 500 degree F Tempilstik is accurate to +/- 5 degrees F. Above 700 degrees F or so, the procedure is to stroke the hot metal with the Tempilstik now and again during heating. When the metal reachs temperature, the crayon will leave a liquid smear [the 'feel' of the stroke changes too. This lets you work kinda blind, inside your fire--Mike]. The cost of Tempilstiks is currently $5.90 in quantities from 1-9. They are carried by welding suply distributors, or may be had direct from: Tempil Division, Big Three Industries, Inc., 2901 Hamilton Blvd., south Plainfield, N.J. 07080 (201-757-8300. Minimum order is three Tempilstiks, and include some postage. [I will check and confirm this address and telephone number--Mike]. Back to files. It is more fun to forge a blade to shape than to grind it, so let's get into the nitty gritty. Forging high carbon steel is a very different matter than working mild steel. Yes, you blacksmith types know it is easier to burn high carbon steel. But even if you don't burn it, forging a 1.3% Carbon file from a white heat and slow cooling it can coarsen the grain and make it rather brittle at any temper. One problem is all that carbon. When steel contains more than 0.8% carbon, it is easy to get a brittle iron carbide network. Huh?? Well, the excess carbon can form a brittle carbide layer around each grain. Back up further! all metals, including steel, consist of millions of tiny crystals, all stuck together. Imagine a pile of graped that have been pressed together without breaking the skins. each grapeis roughly the same shape as a metal crystal or 'grain'. If you overheat and slow cool a file, the 'skins' of each of the little 'grape' will be hard and glass brittle. That translates into a cutting edge that easile becomes radded or crumbles. I suggest forging that file, especially if it is the old 10130 steel, as if it was a true Damascus (Wootz) steel. That is, heat to a much lower temperature than usual. This means fore muscle butit will also keep the metal fine grained, which is most important. damascus, which could be as high as 2% carbon, is forged starting at 1550-1600 degrees F and finished at a blood red, about 1200 degrees F. There is really no way you can jusde a 1660 degree F starting temperature by eye. If you are serious about fine work and don't like throwing hours of your time and material into the scrap bin, invest in a couple of Tempilstiks, rated at say, 1550 and 1600 degrees F. Once the blade has been forged you should always anneal it to reduce chances of warping and cracking during the hardening operation. The safest way to do this is to heat the blade 1300-1400 degrees F for half an hour or so, and bury it in ashes or lime to cool slowly. [Omitting this pre-hardening anneal is about the single greatest cause of amateur smith's failures in hardening steel--mike] Most steels are annealed from a higher temperature. I am suggesting this lower anneal to keep the fine grain structure and fine carbide distribution you got by forging that old 1.3% carbon file down in the cherry to blood red range. [sub-critical anneal--breaks up any fine carbide network--Mike] Now that you have forged and annealed the blad, grind it all over to near final shape. you MUST grind off the scaled, decruburized surface or it will crack in heat treatment. When yu heat in the forge, some of theiron oxidizes to a blue-gray scale. that is obvious. But, some of the carbon literally burns out of the steel's surface. This is just the opposite of case hardening. If you leave that thin, soft, low carbon skin on the blade, paradoxically enouth it WILL crack when quenched in water or brine. To harden that file steel, heat to 14401450 degrees F for about 4-5 minutes and brine quench. Again, invest in a 1425 and a 1450 Tempilstik. Do NOT overheat it! The quench is important. If you want to be really traditional, you could use the urine of a three year old goat fed only ferns for three days. However, today there is a better way, particularly for apartment dwellers and other Urban Folk. That is salt brine. Mix just 13 ounces of common salt in a gallon of fresh water. That makes a 9% brine solution. This brine will quench twice as good as water. [extract heat from the steel at twice the rate--Mike]. It reduces the chances of cracking and warping and makes a harder part. Brine is, of course, less fragrant than the aforementioned animal product. Keep your brine cool or at no more that room temperature. Don't quench file steel in oil. That won't harden it well at all. How you dunk the knife in the brine quench is important. If you belly-flop it in, it is guaranteed to warp, and it may crack. Plunge the hot knife straight into the brine, and it will come out reasonably straight. It will be more straight if you quench in brine than if you quench in water. this is because brine quenches the steel more uniformly all over. Move the knife in a figure 8 motion while it sizzles in the brine. This gives a more uniform quench. Remove it while it is still warm and temper as soon as possible. Tempering quickly is important, lest the metal decide to crack while resting quietly on your workbench. [that tell tale 'click' in a quiet shop is VERY disheartening--Mike]. The word 'temper' these days means to reheat a quenched part to make it softer and tougher. for knives of file steel I temper at least at 450 degrees F, preferable 500 degrees F. If you forged a firesteel out of an AISI 1095 steel file, I would temper 500 to 600 degrees F. You might temper first at 500 degrees F and try striking spark. If it seems too hard, retemper at 600 degrees F (the blue beyond purple). If the knife blade is crooked, temper it first before you try to straighten it!! [Cool to room temperature after all tempering or annealing operations-mike]. Then heat it to 300 degrees F again (straw to brown) and straighten while hot. DO NOT heat the steel a beautiful blue and try to straighten at this temperature. Steel has a peculiar brittleness while it is in the blue range (550-600 degrees F). [This range is known as the blue-brittle range for a reason, and is avoided like the plague in industry--there is also a black heat, 885 degrees F known as 'black shearing heat' where a two inch bar of steel can be cut cleanly with a 2# hammer and a cold chisel--Mike]. This toughness, by the way, is important in a farriers rasp. When shoeing a horse I understand it is occasionally necessary to get the beast's attention. This is accompolished by rapping them on the hoof. High carbon farrier's rasps tend to break during this endeavor. Hence, they are made of tough 1035, lightly cased. [anyone comfirm this??????? --Mike] you can forge the rasp steel from high temperatures without embrittling itl when you're finished, take the forging and normalize ti by heating to 1575-1650 degrees F and air cool. This refines the grain which may have coarsened in the forge. It is very important that the steel be fine grained. Fine grain steel in remarkably tougher than coarse grain. All steel forgings shold be annealed or normalized to impreve their toughness. To harden that rasp steel, heat 1525-1600 degrees F and quench in cold brine. For a tough throwing knife, temper about 700 degrees F. This discussion holds for American made Nicholson or Black Diamond rasps. If you are wont to purchase asian products I might suggest you contact an Asian metallurgist regarding how best to treat them. [I would suggest the obvious......BUY AMERICAN, BE AMERICAN --Mike] I would like to thank Jim for this fine article, and hope your patience on this thread was not exhausted by the length. Mike Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Date: 22 Jul 1999 10:42:45 EDT Last week the Carson museum called them wifes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 22 Jul 1999 10:46:14 EDT Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL? TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 22 Jul 1999 08:51:42 -0600 IT IS www.nationaltrappers.com Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: TrapRJoe@aol.com [SMTP:TrapRJoe@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 8:46 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 > > Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL? > > TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women at Rendezvous Date: 22 Jul 1999 09:52:20 -0600 Iron Burner & Capt. Lahti have stolen some of my thunder, but I have to chime in to agree: lots of women were involved in the fur trade. Just because they weren't white doesn't mean that they don't count. Iron Burner wrote: >When I asked a matronly museum volunteer about that, she coyly implied that >they [Kit Carson's native American wives] weren't really wives. That reminds me of a story. (My apologies if I've already told this one on the list!) In 1836, the Rev. Herbert Beaver arrived at Fort Vancouver to collide headfirst with Dr. John McLoughlin over the subject of McLoughlin's mixed-blood (half-breed) country wife, Marguerite. Dr. McLoughlin married her at Rainy Lake "according to the custom of the country" in 1811. At that time, there was no clergyman for hundreds of miles around (and no justices of the peace either), so a common-law marriage was his only option. Beaver, however, called Marguerite a "kept Mistress" who should not be allowed to associate with decently married couples. When Beaver continued his abuse even after Chief Trader James Douglas married the McLoughlins in a civil ceremony (Douglas was also a JP), Dr. McLoughlin gave Beaver a sound thrashing with his own cane. (All of the above is from Van Kirk, 155-157) In short, had you suggested to many Canadian fur traders that their "country wives" weren't _really_ wives, you would have been in deep yogurt. I must hasten to add, however, that some fur traders were less honorable than Dr. McLoughlin, James Douglas, Daniel Harmon, David Thompson, and John McDonald of Garth (just to name a few). These other men (George Simpson, for example) considered their country wives to, in fact, be "kept Mistresses", and treated them accordingly. I would not be so bold as to suggest which category Kit Carson fell into. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 22 Jul 1999 05:30:11 -0400 *chuckles* The URL is hte web address of a site... http:// then..... address -----Original Message----- >Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL? > > TrapRJoe > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 22 Jul 1999 09:49:15 -0700 TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL? > > TrapRJoe TrapRJoe, I think that's a range of mountains in Russia. Just a guess, I remain.......... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 22 Jul 1999 12:18:13 -0600 ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: >it was specifically mentioned that the voyageurs >carried no firearms and the chief trader carried a Manton shotgun, but I >think there were others traveling with the group who may have had guns. >Perhaps, guides or interpreters who were part of the company but not >specifically mentioned. Don't forget the clerks! In the Canadian fur trade from about 1794 to 1811, there was a spot called La Mont'ee on the Saskatchewan River at the eastern edge of the plains (later it was the site of Fort Carlton). It was a horse corral. When the returning canoes reached this point, the clerks and bourgeois left the voyageurs to continue on upstream, while they mounted horses and hunted buffalo & elk to supply the party with meat on the last leg of their journey. Every evening they found the voyageurs & camped with them (well, almost every evening--sometimes they couldn't find the voyageur camp!) >A specific >description of the voyageur's finest was included. I don't suppose you could pass this on to me? Thanks for the info on the book; I'll have to see if I can track it down. Tony Clark wrote: >I decided to try to find the routes the traders took from La Vieux Desert to >Lake Superior.Logic told me it was the Ontanogan which was only a 60 mile >trip with no portages in high water. I was wrong. The routes that were >primarily used where MOSTLY portages. One of the routes I eventually found >on an original map and it started off with a portage which had 120 "pauses"! >I'm not sure how far a pause is, but it was a looong way to portage. I bet a 'pause' is the same as a 'pose', which was about a half mile. This is one LOOONG portage. In Canada, the longest fur trade portages I know of were Portage La Loche (aka Methy Portage), which was twelve miles over the height of land separating the Hudson's Bay watershed from the Athabasca watershed, and Grand Portage, which was nine miles long. There were also Howse Pass and Athabasca Pass (both in the Rockies), however, which were entirely different, since the canoes were not carried over the passes but left on either end. Also, horses were often used to help cross these passes. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: razor stropping Date: 22 Jul 1999 13:15:49 -0700 Lanney, Thanks bud, I looked on Clark & Sons website, found the shaving stuff and now I'm in trouble; ordered all the goodies - straight razor, after shave, badger brush, soap, strop and the brass shaving mug. If I cut myself - this will please the little woman, if I don't - she may cut me. This looks like a no win deal ! Turtle > On Wed, 21 July 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > THIS I have printed and saved to several files. It is the information I needed. Thanks, Buck. I hope you sell a pile of these razors.......refer 'em to me if you like. > YMOS > Lanney > > -Lanney, > > > > As promised here's more information, in process of doing an article on shaving and equipage for the T&LR journal. > > > > Later > > YF&B > > Buck > > ______________________________________________________ > > Here's some information from Arthur Boon; > > > > STROPPING TECHNIQUE > > Strop only before shaving, after the edge could 'grow' for at least 24 > > hours, but preferably 48 hours. If you strop the edge immediately after > > shaving, the misaligned microserrations behave as a burr, which will > > break off and penetrate the leather, which will turn into sandpaper. If > > you honed just before stropping, clean the blade with water and soap and > > dry with a cloth without touching the edge; this too is to prevent small > > metal parts to get stuck into the strop, which can damage the edge while > > stropping. Keep the tang between index finger and thumb and keep those > > fingers stretched. Place the blade flat on the strop. In case of a > > hanging strop, keep it under tension continuously, because if you let it > > hang through, you will create a round and therefore blunt cutting edge. > > Pull the blade over the strop away from the cutting edge and in the > > direction of the back. If you strop the other way in the direction of > > the edge (which is the case during honing), you will cut through the > > strop, or you will cause knicks which will damage the razor. In the > > course of this stroke, take care that the complete cutting edge has > > touched the strop. The pressure of the knife on the strop should not > > exceed the weight of the knife, to prevent rounding and thus blunting > > the cutting edge. At the end of the stroke, keep the blade in contact > > with the strop, and swing the blade 180 degrees, causing it to rotate > > around the back; the back should keep in contact with the strop. Then do > > a stroke in the other direction. Repeat this about 10-60 times. Do this > > procedure first on the canvas (about 10 times) next on the leather. > > ________________________________________________________ > > Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: > > > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 > > ATTN: Jon Link > > > > The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. > > ________________________________________________________ > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 22 Jul 1999 13:29:50 -0700 Tony, Sounds like you two have a lot in common, I remember reading in "Canoe" magazine about the "Colorado Five" making the 1260 river mile trip (one way) and several other articles about them doing other long trips in other magazines, all period. Don't know about the Mississippi and that traffic, bridges and other stuff in the water while in a canoe today. Don't know if this group is still around or if they have done any big lakes like you mentioned. One of that group, Bill Jones told me the average age on the long trip was 50, and they had a great time, Buck had just had his back fused a year before and still went, he's lucky it held together - understand it went and had to have a steel pin a year or so later. Does anyone know if they still do these trips or not anymore, Buck you out there. Turtle. > Buck, > Sorry to put you and the rest of the good folks on the list through our ... > faaailure...tocommunicate. > I 've read enough first hand accounts to want to do more than talk about the > water routes these early traders used. I to have traveled literally > thousands of miles over the very routes they used. Talk about dragging > canoes through shallow water,I know what thats like!, my canoe can carry > 1100# never had it quite that heavy, but close on a few trips, heading down > a river was always a real adventure (going up was a pain in the arse). > Sometimes you never knew what you where going to encounter. Some of my most > memorable trips where on Superior itself. Beautiful country but very > unforgiving to those who aren't careful and prepared. Sometimes that isn't > enough. The main point I was trying to make to Kestrel took me a few years > of traveling these water routes to discover, and it's the simple fact that > the water route with the fewest portages does not make nessacarily the best > route. Example: There was an American Fur Company post on lake Le Vieux > Desert to the north of me. This was an ideal location for a post > (the closest town is called Watersmeet, they really do here) because 2 miles > to the north the Ontanogan River flowed into Superior,The Wisconsin River > flowed out of the lake it being its headwaters, to the east was the Brule R > which flowed into the Menominee which then went to Lake Michigan. For laughs > I decided to try to find the routes the traders took from La Vieux Desert to > Lake Superior.Logic told me it was the Ontanogan which was only a 60 mile > trip with no portages in high water. I was wrong. The routes that where > primarily used where MOSTLY portages. One of the routes I eventually found > on an original map and it started off with a portage which had 120 "pauses"! > I'm not sure how far a pause is, but it was a looong way to portage. Why did > they choose routes that had so many portages? I believe it may have been > because many times they did not have extremely large loads to transport, > after all we aren't talking about the Athabascan country. Compared to that > these posts in WI where relatively close to the Forts that resupplyed them, > maybe they where supplied several times a season. I also think other factors > as simple as the bugs being bad(or other very mundane reasons) effected the > use of certain routes.If EVERY factor was equal obviously the quickest route > that required the least amount of work was used, but until a person attempts > to follow in the footsteps of these early travelers they have NO idea the > factors that are involved. Even after reading about it. Like the remark you > made about the condition of modern man, "our life styles have made us take a > back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers" that was well > said but I have lots of fun and plenty of great memories trying to emulate > them as I am sure you also do! > > Take care, > Tony Clark Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 22 Jul 1999 16:44:13 EDT > >A specific description of the voyageur's finest was included. > I don't suppose you could pass this on to me? Sorry, Angela As I mentioned, they were quick reads; I whizzed through the autbiography quickly and only got through a couple of chapters of SwiftWalker before Deb's interlibrary loan time was up. One thing that did catch my eye was the fact that they put on "white" sashes as part of this finery. Any idea what they were? > Thanks for the info on the book; I'll have to see if I can track it down. Better hurry.....I'm gonna buy the cheapest copies I find before anyone else grabs them. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 22 Jul 1999 18:00:17 -0500 -----Original Message----- Angela wrote: >>I bet a 'pause' is the same as a 'pose', which was about a half mile. This is one LOOONG portage. In Canada, the longest fur trade portages I know of were Portage La Loche (aka Methy Portage), which was twelve miles over the height of land separating the Hudson's Bay watershed from the Athabasca watershed, and Grand Portage, which was nine miles long. There were also Howse Pass and Athabasca Pass (both in the Rockies), however, which were entirely different, since the canoes were not carried over the passes but left on either end. Also, horses were often used to help cross these passes<< Thank you for the information Angela. I have wondered what the approximate distance of one of these 'pauses' was for quite some time. I sometimes find it quite difficult to study these old maps and try and correlate the info. that is given with a modern map because often times the scale is so far off. The particular portage I mentioned was up the Montreal River in northern WI. I located it on a map that was included in a letter from James Duane Doty to Lewis Cass (the then governor of Michigan?) dated September 27, 1820. The map is specifically of all of the major water routes in northern WI that where in use at that time. The letter also gives 5 pages of information dealing with the details of these routes. It was really a great find for me. Why would they have made a portage like this to La Vieux Desert?(By the way could you please tell me what that means?) If you look at a map of Northern WI and the upper peninsula of Michigan it is pretty much sandwiched between Lake Superiour and Lake Michigan. The specific area I am describing around La Vieux Desert and Watersmeet is on the height of land for that region, with major rivers flowing into Superior to the North and West, The Mississippi to the South, and Lake Michigan to the East. Assuming they were coming from Michilimakinac, they could have taken Superior to the mouth of the Montreal, then the long portage which paralleled that river up to a chain of lakes, then to La Vieux Desert to the post, then continue east over the height of land to the Brule which enters the Menominee and a leisurely trip to lake Michigan then to the fort. Thats pure speculation on my part. I know of other routes that have quite long portages. What do you think of my idea that the loads they were carrying may not have been extremely large? It seems to me if one isn't burdened with an overly large load that it may be faster to go overland rather than pull or pole it up river in a canoe. Especially if the rivers are fast like many are here. Also, they weren't to far from a source of supply's. This area may just be unique in the respect that it is a 'cross roads' of sorts for water travel. Thanks, Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 22 Jul 1999 18:35:28 -0500 -----Original Message----- Turtle wrote: >>Tony, Sounds like you two have a lot in common, I remember reading in "Canoe" magazine about the "Colorado Five" making the 1260 river mile trip (one way) and several other articles about them doing other long trips in other magazines, all period. << I don't think any thing I have ever done would shine a light to that undertaking. My hat is off to Buck and those boys for even thinking of such a grand adventure as that. The best I have ever done is 100 miles or so at one crack, and not period. Unfortunately I never had any company except for my dog, until I met my wife that is (she is one in a million, even though she don't like fast water. My dog didn't either for that matter.) My main reason for canoeing all these rivers and lakes is for: 1) The fun of it. 2) Learn about the fur trade 3) I am researching a book that deals with the routes the native americans have been using to transport goods since approx. 3000 B.C. Ironically, since many of the fur trade routes are the same routes native americans used, I begin looking for these ancient prehistoric routes on the fur trade routes. There is VERY little evidence left after a few thousand years that someone has used a particular river as a transportation route. But it is there. You also mentioned Bucks back problems (I know all about those I have been a timber faller for 14 yrs.) reminds me of the fact that the voyageurs where normally quite short and subsequently had few back problems. They were known to have lots of hernia problems if my memory serves me correctly. All those heavy loads they carried took there toll. Good Luck, Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 22 Jul 1999 16:48:00 -0700 Never did the big lakes like Tony is talking about, mostly minor to major rivers - less work going down stream, all now water under the bridge. > Don't know if this group is still around or if they have done any > big lakes like you mentioned. No longer the same group, I sold the canoes and the trailer, got to busy with other stuff, others moved on. > Does anyone know if they still do these trips or not anymore, Buck > you out there. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Arms Date: 22 Jul 1999 20:29:42 -0700 Henry, I have seen and shot one of the guns Joe Curtis is building, and they are really built well. I don't remember what he sells them for but if a guy wanted to go that direction in history, you would do well to get in touch with him. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Henry, > >Talked to George Thompson, Capitain of the AMM this evening, who is also a >docent at La Purisima Mission and I was mistaken about the Brown Bess >Muskets at La Purisima in the 1820s. George said that the reason they had >Brown Bess Muskets on display was because the correct guns were stolen and >this is what they got to replace them. They picked Brown Bess Muskets >because they were just about everywhere during that time period. > >He told me that the guns that they did have were Miguelet (I hope I spelled >it right) Muskets, which were made in Spain. George told me that one of our >AMM Brothers (Carl Herder) actually has an original and that another (Joe >Curtis) has made reproductions in the past. If you would like, I will get >their numbers because they are not on the net to my knowledge. > >Best Regards, > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 22 Jul 1999 19:51:45 -0600 ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: >One thing that did catch my eye was the fact that they [voyageurs] put on "white" sashes >as part of this finery. Any idea what they were? My only guess is that this is some mangled version of "worsted" sashes, since voyageur sashes in my time period (1774-1821) are usually described as "worsted belts". Tony Clark wrote: > Why would they have made a portage like this to La Vieux >Desert? I don't presume to guess; geography is really not my strong point! >(By the way could you please tell me what that means?) Well, Le Vieux means "the old man", vieux means "old" (masculine), and desert is a masculine noun that can mean either "desert" or "wilderness". So it could be Old Man's Desert, Old Man's Wilderness, Old Desert, or Old Wilderness. Do the Native Americans in that area have an "Old Man" character in their traditions? We have an Oldman River in Alberta which is named after the Blackfoot people's Old Man, Napi. >What do you >think of my idea that the loads they were carrying may not have been >extremely large? When Alexander Mackenzie's voyageurs were travelling on foot due to a very long and impassable section of the Fraser River, they carried only 80 or 90 lbs instead of the usual 180 lbs (2 X 90 lbs). They were also 'packing' them in the modern sense--one pack to a voyageur, carried constantly. Now, a 'pose' is different; it's a staging point. The voyageurs take their packs to the 'pose', dump them there, and go back empty to the last pose for another load. This enables you to keep an eye on the goods at either end of the pose, while carrying more goods than you could if you used your voyageurs like pack mules, carrying the same load from A to B. So if they were using poses, then it's different from constantly carrying a burden like Mackenzie's voyageurs. Perhaps, by only carrying one pack, they were sacrificing weight for speed (as you suggested). One thing's for darn sure: you don't make such a long portage unless there's no other way. But I know that voyageurs would sometimes take extremely winding canoe routes--in one case, twelve miles of river travel took them just three straight miles from their starting point. Perhaps the water routes would have taken them through *extremely* hostile territory? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Shaving Date: 22 Jul 1999 22:47:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_00000075.01BED494 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Turtle - Nice shaving outfit! Your strop should be a set, one leather = and the other canvas. =20 To break in a new leather strop, rub in lather (from your mug) into the = leather and then=20 rub it in good with a glass bottle; for 5-10 minutes too smooth out the = leather. Do this a couple days in a row. After that, rub your strop with the palm of = your hand to keep it=20 soft and pliant or pliable. Don't over strop your razor. Strop it 8 - = 12 times on the canvas and then 8 - 12 times on the leather. Then forget the whole idea and = shave with a safety or disposable razor. :) Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0000_00000075.01BED494 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Turtle   - = Nice shaving=20 outfit!  Your strop should be a set, one leather and the other=20 canvas. 
To=20 break in a new leather strop, rub in lather (from your mug) into the = leather and=20 then
rub it in good with a glass = bottle;  for 5-10=20 minutes too smooth out the leather.  Do this
a couple days in a row.  After = that, rub your=20 strop with the palm of your hand to keep it
soft and pliant  or pliable.  = Don't over=20 strop your razor.  Strop it 8 - 12 times on the canvas
and then 8 - 12 times on the = leather.  Then=20 forget the whole idea and shave with a safety
or disposable razor.   = :) =20 Frank
 
------=_NextPart_000_0000_00000075.01BED494-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 23 Jul 1999 07:13:44 -0700 Tony, Thank you for the kind remarks, "it did shine" and we will remember it for the rest of our lives, the best part was everyone we met was positive - not a negative person, different than what we all see on the "news" - all negative carp. Turtle mentioned "Canoe" magazine, we picked up a reporter from that publication in his fancy modern canoe clothes, made him put on what we had on - breeches, clouts and leggings, etc. Only let him take his small camera and note pad, he wanted his energy and junk food - but left them in his car. After a 150 miles with us he wasn't sure who's gear was better and wrote that in his article - that's cool. > Unfortunately I never had any company except for my dog, until I met my wife that > is (she is one in a million, even though she don't like fast water. My dog didn't either > for that matter.) A couple of people makes life much easier in many cases, that's great your lady goes along. > 3) I am researching a book that deals with the routes the native Americans > have been using to transport goods since approx. 3000 B.C. > Ironically, since many of the fur trade routes are the same routes native > americans used, I begin looking for these ancient prehistoric routes on the > fur trade routes. It will be interesting to read your findings on lost ancient routes, you may want to consider a GPS unit for locations, a metal detector for possible camp sites. > reminds me of the fact that the voyageurs where normally quite short and > subsequently had few back problems. We all got them (backs) and like mentioned before, modern man can't handle like loads of our forefathers, we just flat got soft after a dozen or more decades. Later Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. ________________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 23 Jul 1999 13:39:16 EDT Thank you for telling this computer ignorant trapper what a URL is. Don't forget your state trappers assn. as well. Right now it is very hard to trap legally if at all in Arizona and Colorado, and many other states regularly stand at great risk of loosing their right to trap. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Brown Bess and stuff Date: 23 Jul 1999 16:29:41 -0600 Hey hermanos y hermanas What's the going rate for a new (repro) Brown Bess? I guessed $600-$700 (DGW quotes), depending on the maker. We're talking assembly line quality here, not hand crafted. Just your garden variety repro Bess. What about a Charleville (same question)? I'm asking for a guy who might be considering using one in a Spanish Colonial (1780-1790s) exhibit, related to my earlier query on Spanish firearms. He wants to consider all options. I'm not a pre-1800 shooter. What accoutrements go with a Bess or Charleville, and what is the related cost for that as well? Any consensus on whether Charlevilles were or could have been used on the Spanish Borderlands frontier? TIA, HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: The Filibuster Is * On * Date: 23 Jul 1999 15:49:44 -0700 Friends, Our low life elected officals are at it again, sign up for this mail list and give them more responses than they could ever dream of on "Gun Control". Smith is standing up for us, let him know your pleased, and screw Lott into the ground with complaints. Either we fight to keep what we got, or in a few years we sit around and cry about what we use to have, your choice ! Later Buck Conner Colorado Territory ____________________________________ Senator Smith Throws Down the Gauntlet! -- Stands up to Trent Lott by forcing filibuster on anti-gun crime bill Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org (Friday, July 23, 1999) -- Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-MS) has set the Senate wheels in motion for a series of votes to stop Senator Bob Smith's filibuster on the juvenile crime legislation. The first vote has been set for Monday, July 26. So far, Senator Smith (I-NH) has prevented any progress on the anti-gun crime bill by promising to use the ancient art of "filibuster." Yesterday, that promise became reality when Smith objected to a motion by Sen. Lott to move the bill along. This is truly a David v. Goliath stand-off. The Senate leadership, led by the Majority Leader, is trying to roll Senator Smith and bring his delaying tactics to an end. Of course, Senator Lott must first clear at least six parliamentary "hurdles" that have been erected by Senator Smith. The key vote will occur on Wednesday or Thursday when the Senate will determine whether the Gore/Lautenberg gun control crime bill (S. 254) will move forward. That vote will be on an effort to shut down debate on Sen. Smith's filibuster-- known in Washington as "invoking cloture" on the filibuster-- and will decide whether Sen. Lott can substitute the virulently anti-gun crime bill (S. 254) in lieu of the crime bill that was passed by the House. Eventually, Senator Lott wants to send the crime legislation to a House-Senate conference committee to iron out the differences between the two bills. But that can only come after he's cleared the Smith "hurdles"-- a process that should take several days. Lott can clear each one of these hurdles with a 60-vote majority in the Senate. If that happens, President Clinton will be one step closer to signing a crime bill that is replete with gun bans and gun owner registration. But if our side gets 41 votes at any point along the way, then Senate rules will allow Smith to continue filibustering the bill-- which could entail his standing on the Senate floor and reading long passages from a library of pro-gun literature. You may want to tape this from C-Span and label it "Second Amendment books on tape by Senator Smith." Smith is willing to do that. He is committed to doing whatever it takes to defend the 2nd Amendment. But he needs 40 other Senators to stand with him! Again, Monday's vote will begin a whole series of votes on this issue. Each one is slightly different, and GOA will do its best to keep you informed as to what is coming down the pike. Until then, please start asking your Senators to support the Smith filibuster. Senator Smith is without question THE defender of 2nd Amendment rights in the Senate. Tell your Senator that you would like him or her to follow Smith's lead on the upcoming series of votes. CONTACT INFORMATION: * Toll-free at 1-888-449-3511. [Please be patient when calling this number; sometimes it rings for quite a while. But they will answer!] * The regular Capitol Switchboard number is 202-224-3121. * Fax and e-mail contact info is available at http://www.gunowners.org/s106th.htm on the GOA webpage. P.S. There has been quite a bit of confusion in the media as to what is actually transpiring on Monday. Some in the media are reporting that Monday's vote is about the appointment of Senate conferees. This is incorrect. Technically speaking, the purpose for Monday's vote in the Senate is to bring up the House crime bill (H.R. 1501) for debate. As stated above, Lott eventually wants to appoint conferees, but that will only happen if he can overcome every Smith filibuster. ************** Cheaper Than Dirt donates a percentage of your total order to GOA if you use http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/goa.htm to enter their online store. ************** Did someone else forward this to you? To be certain of getting up to date information, please consider subscribing to the GOA E-Mail Alert Network directly. There is no cost or obligation, and the volume of mail is quite low. To subscribe, simply send a message to goamail@gunowners.org and include the state in which you live, in either the subject or the body. To unsubscribe, reply to any alert and ask to be removed. _________________________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brown Bess and stuff Date: 23 Jul 1999 19:00:40 EDT I must be missing something - I thought a brown bess was a teapot that you picked up at woolworths for about 3 pounds sterling.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brown Bess and stuff Date: 23 Jul 1999 19:51:24 -0500 -----Original Message----- Emma wrote: >>>I must be missing something - I thought a brown bess was a teapot that you picked up at woolworths for about 3 pounds sterling..<<< Emma, I just happened to have this handy. It's probably more than you really wanted to know, however I did find it interesting. From a article "The Flintlock... Father of Firearms" by Louis W. Stienwedel Snip>>> In the early years of the 18th century there evolved a flintlock musket that bridged the gap between the true ancient arms and the guns of today. This, the first official British army musket, was known more properely as"Her Majesty's Musket" or the "national weapon", but it quickly picked up the nickname of "Brown Bess". The origin of the pseudonym is obscure; a number of historians have explained it by the pickled brown barrel and the brownish walnut stock but this explanation seems to ignore the fact that guns had been finished in the same fashion for decades, indeed for centuries, before. But hassles over its title aside, the Brown Bess went forward with the Union Jack to the four points of the compass and quickly became the teeth behind the roar of the british lion. The boast that the sun never set on the British empire owed a generous measure of thanks to the persuasive qualities of the gun that rapidly became an instutution and lingered on, in various forms, for 139 years. Accounting for a bulk of some fourteen poiunds and a gangling length of some 60 inches-plus an inhospitable looking socket bayonet- Bess's facade was nothing less than ferocious.Mechanically, Bess was an aristocrat among military arms wich, like the rank and file of the contemparary armies themselves, were frequently the dregs of the market. In contrast to the "national weapons" of ather countries, which could not boast of such refinements until considerably later, the Brown Bess came equipped with a bridle lock which served to firmly hold the lockwork in perfect alignment for sure fire performance. Further improvements included a reinforced flashpan screw so that the frizzen and pan cover could not be bent out of place by repeated blows of the snpping cock. This greatly increased the longevity of the gun and forever squelched the argument that the flintlock was to fragile for the vicissitudes of military life. Caliber of the Bess was 76 (11 gauge) which, compared ot the tiny bores of today, begins to suggest artillery prorportions. However, regulations provided that the piece be loaded with a 71 caliber ball which, as anyone familiar with the ballistics of muzzleloaders will quickly realize, did nothing for accuracy since the powder charge sent the undersized, unpatched ball bouncing erratically down the barrel (With compression escaping around it)to strike unpredictably somewhere in the next few hundred feet. Despite it's unpretentious record of inaccuracy, the Bess was childs play to load with such an undersized bullet, so a British regular was able to get of as many as 6 shots a minute. Siezing upon this unequalled speed of fire, John Churchill introduced what amounted to mass production into military tactics. Massing a thousand regulars,Churchill could count on 6000 rounds of fire per minute issuing forth from a self sustaining sheet of orange flame and bluish smoke. In such a set up obviously the accuracy of a individual gun was'nt overly important, but it was through such tactics, plus the durable sure fire qualities of the Brown Bess, that a considerable measure of the British empire was won and held. Quite possibly the same success would have prevailed in the American affair of 1776 had it not been for the more rugged tree covered terrain wich hindered such strategy and a sufficient number of backwoodsmen with there slower loading but superbly accurate"long rifles" to make such a massing in the open-particularly with scarlet uniforms- a decidedly dangerous bussiness.<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 23 Jul 1999 20:57:39 -0600 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Too late for Colorado. Trapping already banned. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants TrapRJoe wrote: >Thank you for telling this computer ignorant trapper what a URL is. Don'= t = >forget your state trappers assn. as well. Right now it is very hard to = trap = >legally if at all in Arizona and Colorado, and many other states = regularly = >stand at great risk of loosing their right to trap. > > TrapRJoe > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A9E969012A; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:44:09 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 117jMO-000546-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:43:52 -0600 > Received: from [198.81.17.68] (helo=3Dimo24.mx.aol.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 117jMM-00052m-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:43:50 -0600 > Received: from TrapRJoe@aol.com > by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id fXYZa24272 (4422) > for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:39:17 -0400 (= EDT) > From: TrapRJoe@aol.com > Message-ID: <1c799c93.24ca02c4@aol.com> > Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:39:16 EDT > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 942 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 24 Jul 1999 09:49:25 EDT Colorado's State Trapping Assn. is trying to get it back. They could sure use all the support they can get. If your from Colorado let me encourage you to join their assn. Their President is Al Davidson. He can be reached for information on how to join and what buckskinners can do, at P.O. Box 625, Saguache, CO 81149 Can you image the economic impact it would have on the state if buckskinners and sportsmen ban the state over this. Boy, what pressure. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 24 Jul 1999 10:17:26 -0500 -----Original Message----- Buck wrote: >>Thank you for the kind remarks, "it did shine" and we will remember it for the rest of our lives<< Thats what it's aaall about, in my opinion. In the end the good memories (or bad for some) is mostly all a person has. >>A couple of people makes life much easier in many cases, that's great your lady goes along.<< Amen >>, you may want to consider a GPS unit for locations, a metal detector for possible camp sites.<< I don't use the GPS for the routes, however I do use it to find my way back to locations where these prehistoric americans had mined for copper. These can be way off the beaten path. BTW, the procurement and transportation of copper is what these routes were primarily used for at one time I believe. The use of copper for tools and ornamentation in WI and the U.P. of Michigan may be the oldest use of metals by people anywhere in the world. I have some rather sophisticated equipment for locating sites and features. I work with many professional archeologists from this region. I would like to learn more about your 1200 mile river trip. Would that be possible,and where could I find that article from 'Canoe' magazine? Any idea? Thanks, Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 24 Jul 1999 09:54:27 -0500 -----Original Message----- Angela wrote: >>Well, Le Vieux means "the old man", vieux means "old" (masculine), and desert is a masculine noun that can mean either "desert" or "wilderness". So it could be Old Man's Desert, Old Man's Wilderness, Old Desert, or Old Wilderness. Do the Native Americans in that area have an "Old Man" character in their traditions? << Thanks for the information. To my knowledge the native americans in that area do not have an old man character in there traditions, however it would not suprise me to learn that they have. This I will look into further. Your translation does bring to mind the fact that I have heard lake Le Vieux Desert reffered to as 'Old Plantation Lake'. >>Now, a 'pose' is different; it's a staging point. The voyageurs take their packs to the 'pose', dump them there, and go back empty to the last pose for another load. This enables you to keep an eye on the goods at either end of the pose, while carrying more goods than you could if you used your voyageurs like pack mules, carrying the same load from A to B.<< Another alternative to this type of portaging would have been to unload half of the cargo or all depending on the difficulty of the obstacle to pass, while the canoe would remain in the water and the rapids or obstacle forced. I forget what the French terminology for this particular maneuver is. At least this way the men who would otherwise have to carry the canoe got some respite, which was significant because I believe it took four men to carry a 36' canoe which weighed 600 (?) or so pounds, canoe upside down with two men to a side under the gunwales. It is my understanding that the Canadian fur trade also used a 25' canoe that was portaged in an upright position, the way it would sit on the water. Two men where able to carry it as it weighed approx. half of what a 36' did. >>One thing's for darn sure: you don't make such a long portage unless there's no other way. But I know that voyageurs would sometimes take extremely winding canoe routes--in one case, twelve miles of river travel took them just three straight miles from their starting point.<< Point well taken. Assuming that each voyageur was responsible for carrying about 6 packs in three loads, every mile of portage would have required 5 miles of travel,(3 trips out and 2 back). Then considering that the rate of travel over a portage was probably 3 mph and allowing some time for loading and unloading, a mile of portaging thus would take a total of 2 hours, or about one half mile per hour net. This would explain the use of a more roundabout water route especially for the larger canoes with the larger loads, however as payload size and canoe size is reduced, you reach a point where longer portages become more efficient I believe. One other factor is that many of the routes with longer portages that i have been describing may have been used after the stereotypical Canadian fur trade transportation systems had evolved into slightly different methods(post 1820). This may have been a result of increased traffic on these routes due to encroachment of civilization. In this region at that time most eyes may have been to the Western U.S., lots of factors to consider I'll be searching for more information about this in the near future. Thanks again, Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 24 Jul 1999 13:42:18 -0700 > On Sat, 24 July 1999, "northwoods" wrote: > Thats what it's all about, in my opinion. In the end the good > memories (or bad for some) is mostly all a person has. Isn't that the truth; my Dad use to tell me "you come into this world - bald, no teeth and messing your drawer's, when you leave your in about the same condition." I'd kind of like to keep my teeth, still like to eat. > I don't use the GPS for the routes, however I do use it to find my > way back to locations where these prehistoric americans had mined > for copper. These.......... > The use of copper for tools and ornamentation in WI and the U.P. > of Michigan may be the oldest use of metals by people anywhere in the world.......... I find this very interesting findings, such places as these mined areas and what they hold. > I would like to learn more about your 1200 mile river trip. Would > that be possible,and where could I find that article from 'Canoe' > magazine? Any idea? As for "Canoe" magazine it been out of print according to the gal I talked to at there office, she said that article made that issue one of there best sellers. I can make a copy if anyone ones to read it, send a self address-stamped, legal size envelope to my business address and I'll send you a copy of that article on that trip published in Canoe magazine. Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. P.O.Box 28168, 13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16, Lakewood, CO 80228 I have a journal of this 1260 mile trip up on my computer if everyone would like it sent out ! Covers the total experience, period food, clothing, camp and equipage. Let's hear about these copper mines Tony and more on the camps and have you found anything of interest. Later Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. ________________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 24 Jul 1999 14:05:22 -0700 Folks, The biggest problem is getting any group of any size to ban together in this state or any other in today's society. We have become a "what's in it for me" group of people, like it or not. I've played this game many many times with the Colorado State Muzzle Loading Assoc. We have mentioned them before on this list, Joe it's an up hill battle that is never played on even ground. Our elected officals hold the cards, deal the cards and call the winner (which will always be in their favor). I know what you mean, and it sounds wonderful to ban all sportsman together, tried that a few agree, and the rest just go on their merry way with their heads in the sand or somewhere else. I've tried anything from meetings with free cook-outs to just ass-ripping articles, your talking to the masses with deaf ears. This has been over a 25-30 year period of telling them how their "rights" are going out the window by the "do-gooders", now after that long a period we're starting to see the bottom line. That's why I put the "Gun Owners of America" on this list, I reply to the various parties on these alerts, surprising as it may be 90% of these elected officals will respond to your e-mails if you give them you address. Of course I'm probably on every "Sh... List" they pass around among themselves. I also write to the ones that are standing up against gun control, like Smith, and tell them what a great job they are doing and will be remembered at election. It takes a little of your time to do this, but if we don't - you may want to take lots of pictures of your weapons, traps ,etc. because that may be all you have to look at down the road. This applies in the USA now, not just in Colorado folks, its time to wake up and be heard, hope its not to late ??? Later Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. ________________________________________________________ > On Sat, 24 July 1999, TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > Colorado's State Trapping Assn. is trying to get it back.They > could sure use all the support they can get. If your from Colorado > let me encourage you to join their assn. Their President is > Al Davidson. He can be reached for information on how to join and > what buckskinners can do, at P.O. Box 625, Saguache, CO 81149 > Can you image the economic impact it would have on the state if > buckskinners and sportsmen ban the state over this. Boy, what > pressure. > TrapRJoe Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Date: 24 Jul 1999 17:15:08 EDT Buck, I'd sure like to read that 'canoe trip' journal. Please e-mail it to rr1la@aol.com. Thanks, Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List:copper (off topic) Date: 25 Jul 1999 16:44:49 -0500 >I don't use the GPS for the routes, however I do use it to find my >way back to locations where these prehistoric americans had mined >for copper. These can be way off the beaten path. BTW, the >procurement and transportation of copper is what these routes were >primarily used for at one time I believe. The use of copper for >tools and ornamentation in WI and the U.P. of Michigan may be the >oldest use of metals by people anywhere in the world. I have some >rather sophisticated equipment for locating sites and features. I >work with many professional archeologists from this region. Tony, while the copper was mined up there much of it found its way as far south as Cahokia (near St. Louis) in Ill. I think it was traded even farther south,west,and east. A few years ago the Logan Museum of Anthropology had an exibit on prehistoric trade routes in North America. It seems that the copper mines you mentioned were the source of the most easily traceable trade item. Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! ARE YOU READY?.......TO MEET THE KING? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: word wrap (off topic) Date: 25 Jul 1999 16:44:54 -0500 Hey Buck, can you check your e-mail software and set your option to wrap around at the end of a screen of text? you run off 2-3 pages wide and I have to print anything you write in order to read it. Its not an easy task when I have to save it,then convert it 3 times to get a readable document. I have mentioned this to others on other lists and learned that all one has to do is set the software to auto word wrap. Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! THE BILL OF RIGHTS......(Void where prohibited by law) Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 25 Jul 1999 18:40:20 EDT I agree, but we can't roll over and play dead. Are you a member of the Colo. Trappers Assn., and or the National Trappers Assn.? My wife and I were just talking about how we needed about 50 wild coon to dump out in one of Denver's elite neighborhoods so quite Sunday morning. We wondered how long it would take them to try to find a trapper. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 25 Jul 1999 16:56:49 -0700 Haven't belonged for 15 years, I dropped out when moving to the city and selling all the trapping equipment, was in when Major B. was one of the main folks in Ft. Collins. > I agree, but we can't roll over and play dead. Are you a member of the Colo. > Trappers Assn., and or the National Trappers Assn.? I know of several state trappers that handle such things in the metro areas and they don't trap they use a dart gun. > wondered how long it would take them to try to find a trapper. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: MtMan-List: "sign lanuage" Date: 25 Jul 1999 18:02:17 -0700 Folks, I have tried without much success, working by myself, in trying to learn "sign lanuage". Got the books by Tomkins and Clark, tried all the suggestions with very little success. Talked to several members in my local party, seems some were having the same problems. Work always messes you up in getting together. Then here comes the tape that members where talking about (the one that's no longer available) and the new tape "Indian Sign Language" with Larry Pendleton. I figured I have all the other available sources, so I'll see what the tape is like, wasn't sure if I knew Larry or not. Talked to several AMM members on the e-mail list and was told this tape would help, I wouldn't bet on that, Dennis Miles can tell you teaching the Amish doesn't work really well. To make a long story short, I ended up buying several of these tapes for Clark & Sons Mercantile, thinking if I can't learn this - sell them through there and forget "sign". Well I received the "Indian Sign" tapes, sat down and within a few minutes I reconized Larry, we met a while back. I have watched this tape several times, and believe it or not - I think I can learn this stuff, and that's amazing as hard as I have tried in the past. Larry does an excellent job in clearly explaining each word and does it several times, you really "shine" and make it easy. I think enough of this tape, that as soon as my web master gets back from a vacation in Europe (think I'm in the wrong line of work) she will have it (picture and inform) on the front page of Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. web site. Larry you have made my day, I thank you and am sure many more will do the same. Better get ready for Vol #2, with more "sign" bud, us dumbies need all the help we can get. Later Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory PS Don't forget to talk up the T&LR. __________________________________________________Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. __________________________________________________ Report Junk Mail Print Message Show Headers _________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "sign lanuage" Date: 25 Jul 1999 21:42:31 -0700 Buck, Contact me off_list for credit card information to get a tape, and have a couple other questions on cookware. Thanks Turtle. > I think enough of this tape, that as soon as my web master > gets back from a vacation in Europe (think I'm in the wrong > line of work) she will have it (picture and inform) on the > front page of Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. web site. > _________________________________________________ > > Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade > and early history of the times, the one the > American Mountain Men read and write: > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * > Conklin, MI 49403 > ATTN: Jon Link > > The subscription for the journal is $20 for a > year or $35 for two years. You will receive > quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. > _________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Voyageur hernias (was: Anomalies) Date: 26 Jul 1999 08:44:12 -0600 Tony Clark wrote: > reminds me of the fact that the voyageurs were > normally quite short and subsequently had few back problems. > They were known to have lots of hernia problems if my memory serves me > correctly. This is a well-accepted "fact" about voyageurs-- I've seen it printed in a number of places-- but I haven't found any actual evidence for it in my reading of Canadian fur trade journals & memoirs for the period 1774 to 1821. I've been paying particular attention to the accidents and illnesses of people in the fur trade, and I've only found two cases of hernia ("rupture"). The first was a pork-eater, who had a hernia just a few days after leaving Montreal (he was sent back home); the second was an experienced voyageur, way out in the Peace River area (NW corner of Alberta, NE corner of British Columbia). His bourgeois, Simon Fraser, strongly suspected the voyageur was only pretending to be sick. You would think that, with those heavy loads, voyageurs would be prone to hernia. Why don't we see it? I think it was because only the inexperienced pork-eaters were the ones who had the hernias; by the time the men got out west to Lake Superior, they knew how to handle their loads safely. Also, someone has suggested that the famous voyageur sash could function as a support belt (I think that's the term) to prevent hernia. On the other hand, MANY voyageurs died of drowning and starvation. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Voyageur hernias (was: Anomalies) Date: 26 Jul 1999 12:01:41 EDT Angela writes: > This is a well-accepted "fact" about voyageurs-- I've seen it printed in a > number of places-- but I haven't found any actual evidence for it in my > reading of Canadian fur trade journals & memoirs for the period 1774 to > 1821. I've been paying particular attention to the accidents and illnesses > of people in the fur trade, and I've only found two cases of hernia Once again Gurdon Hubbard rears his ugly head; or, it could have been John Kinzie in "WauBun." Anyway, one of them was "WALKING" to one of their trading posts in Wisconsin with the trader that ran that post. They got caught in a storm and got lost. The trader could go no further because of a massive hernia and starvation. He was cached in a near death mode while Hubbarb (?) found his way to an Indian encampment. He made his way back with help, but the trader died. You really need to get a copy of this book. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Voyageur hernias (was: Anomalies) Date: 26 Jul 1999 10:09:28 -0700 On Mon, 26 July 1999, Angela Gottfred wrote: > someone has suggested that the famous voyageur sash could function as a > support belt (I think that's the term) to prevent hernia. > > On the other hand, MANY voyageurs died of drowning and starvation. > the ones with hernias! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Voyageur hernias (was: Anomalies) Date: 26 Jul 1999 10:09:28 -0700 On Mon, 26 July 1999, Angela Gottfred wrote: > someone has suggested that the famous voyageur sash could function as a > support belt (I think that's the term) to prevent hernia. > > On the other hand, MANY voyageurs died of drowning and starvation. > the ones with hernias! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Tapes Date: 26 Jul 1999 20:36:03 -0700 Folks, This is terrible timing, what with all the kind words from Buck, Lanney, and well, more words from Dennis, but there has been a increase in the retail price of the Sign Language Tapes due to an increase in the cost of producing the tapes and the tapes themselves. [ We are using a higher quality video cassette. ] The new price will be $24.95 ea. plus $3.25 shipping and handling. I am really sorry but this is unavoidable. I really do appreciate all the kind words from guys like Buck who have been able to learn Indian Sign Language by using the tape. Thanks for your support. Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Voyageur hernias (was: Anomalies) Date: 27 Jul 1999 02:34:35 -0500 >the inexperienced pork-eaters were the ones who had the hernias; by >the time the men got out west to Lake Superior, they knew how to >handle their loads safely. Also, someone has suggested that the >famous voyageur sash could function as a support belt (I think >that's the term) to prevent hernia. Angela,I would have to ask someone in the medical profession about the sash as a support belt. Personally I don't think that is a safe assumption. I read you saying that the sash was used like a weightlifters belt,been there done that and have had 3 ruptures(heavy construction is a killer),I used to wear a belt until the last surgeon told me that it was worthless as a means of preventing hernias. Anyone that can provide medical evidence to the contrary,please post it as I to have seen the sash reference and the "Well known fact" that hernias were the major cause of death for voyageurs. But like Angela,drowning was more common according to the journals. >On the other hand, MANY voyageurs died of drowning and starvation. >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Battle Lines Forming in the Senate Date: 27 Jul 1999 09:49:00 -0700 Here is the fight that's coming down, don't delete this message; being interested or involved in reenactments of history, you have seen what has gone down in the past, and what maybe our furture. Re-read this e-mail and then call or e-mail your elected offical and voice your opinion about these new proposed gun laws. Act now, or as mentioned before: "take pictures of your weapons, as that's all you'll have after they are collected". Later Buck Conner _________________________________________________ Battle Lines Forming in the Senate -- Senator Bob Smith forces colleagues to decide between God or gun control Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org (Tuesday, July 27, 1999) -- What does one do when outgunned by the other side? Call for Divine help of course. Senator Bob Smith (I-NH), who is fighting a lonely battle in the U.S. Senate, has done just that. It still appears that on this Wednesday, Smith will force a showdown between two different approaches to fighting crime: one that emphasizes the role of the Ten Commandments and prayer (the House crime bill) and one that imposes even more gun control (the Gore-Lautenberg version passed in the Senate). Smith's parliamentary maneuvering resulted in yesterday's expected vote being cancelled-- thus leaving the ultimate showdown for later this week. On Wednesday, the Senate will vote on whether to shut down Smith's filibuster of a "substitute" embodying the language of the Senate anti-gun crime bill (S. 254). If Senators Trent Lott (R-MS) and Orrin Hatch (R-UT) are successful in overcoming Smith, then they will replace the House crime bill (H.R. 1501) with the anti-gun Senate version. IT IS CRITICAL THAT SENATORS VOTE IN FAVOR OF THE SMITH FILIBUSTER. The Smith filibuster is the ONLY thing keeping the anti-gun S. 254 language from advancing in the legislative process. Senators Lott and Hatch want to take the gun control language in S. 254 and substitute it into the House crime bill. The House bill contains language reaffirming the role of the Ten Commandments and prayer in public schools; prohibiting the release of dangerous criminals solely on the basis of prison conditions; and recognizing the role of media violence, the impact of certain music, and lack of school discipline in tragedies such as the one which occurred at Columbine. The House bill is not a perfect bill, but one can see the interesting dilemma that Senator Smith has put his Senate colleagues into. As Smith is framing it, Senators must decide between choosing morality (in the House bill) or choosing a Senate bill that contains the Al Gore/Frank Lautenberg gun control provisions-- including one that would almost certainly put gun shows out of business (see Talking Point #4 below). As far as Second Amendment rights are concerned, the ultimate yardstick is to STOP S. 254 AND THE "SENATE SUBSTITUTE" THAT EMBODIES IT!!! Thus, the message gun owners can relay to their Senators is that for every crime bill vote that arises in the next couple of weeks, they should always vote against the anti-gun Senate language. HERE'S WHAT TO DO: * Please call both of your Senators toll-free at 1-888-449-3511. You can also call them using the Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121. Ask your Senators to vote in support of the Smith filibuster and to vote AGAINST the S. 254 language at every point along the way. * Please forward this message to as many interested people as you can. * Many of you have already sent numerous faxes and e-mails to your Senators, and we thank you for that. But at this late date, it is imperative that we flood their offices with phone calls. TALKING POINTS (Gun control in the Senate bill, S. 254): 1. Young adult gun ban. This ban, introduced by Senator John Ashcroft (R-MO), could severely punish parents who allow their kids to even touch a so-called semi-automatic "assault weapon." While the amendment allows for certain exemptions, there are some imponderable questions which NO senator could answer, but which a parent would have to answer in order to avoid incarceration. For example: What is a "semiautomatic assault weapon"? The definition, plus exemptions, takes up six pages of fine print in the U.S. Code. While a gun manufacturer will pay handsome salaries to attorneys to decipher such convoluted definitions, it will be considerably harder for a parent to determine which of his family firearms are so-called assault weapons, and suspect under this provision. 2. Extending the ban on moderate-capacity magazines. This provision, introduced by Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), would ban the importation of any magazine that can hold over 10 rounds-- no matter when the magazine was manufactured. 3. Hatch-Kohl "Lock-up your safety" requirements. Senators Orrin Hatch (R) and Herb Kohl (D) introduced this amendment which forces gun sellers to include trigger locks with every handgun sold. 4. Banning private sales of firearms at gun shows. This amendment offered by Sen. Lautenberg of New Jersey would ban private sales at gun shows-- sales between two PRIVATE individuals-- unless the buyer first submits to a background registration check. Under this provision, even displaying a firearm at a gun show, and subsequently transferring that gun to a non-dealer (if it is displayed with a notice that it is for sale), will result in a two-year prison sentence-- five years for the second violation. This amendment would also impose a series of restrictions and requirements upon gun show promoters-- requirements that would almost certainly put gun shows out of business. For example, this Lautenberg provision allows gun show promoters to be imprisoned for two years for failure to notify EVERY attendee of his legal requirements. Finally, this provision grants BATF open-ended inspection authority to harass vendors at gun shows, and explicitly gives BATF the right to keep a gun owner registration list for up to 90 days. ************** Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Battle Lines Forming in the Senate Date: 27 Jul 1999 10:13:32 -0700 For a list and e-mail address for your state senators: http://www.gunowners.org/s106th.htm Look under your state for information. _______________________________________________ > Here is the fight that's coming down, don't delete this message; being interested or involved in reenactments of history, you have seen what has gone down in the past, and what maybe our furture. Re-read this e-mail and then call or e-mail your elected offical and voice your opinion about these new proposed gun laws. > > Act now, or as mentioned before: "take pictures of your weapons, as that's all you'll have after they are collected". > > Later > Buck Conner > _________________________________________________ > > From: Gun Owners of America > > Battle Lines Forming in the Senate > -- Senator Bob Smith forces colleagues to decide between God or gun control > > Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert > 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 > Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 > http://www.gunowners.org > > As far as Second Amendment rights are concerned, the ultimate yardstick is to STOP S. 254 AND THE "SENATE SUBSTITUTE" THAT EMBODIES IT!!! Thus, the message gun owners can relay to their Senators is that for every crime bill vote that arises in the next couple of weeks, they should always vote against the anti-gun Senate language. > > HERE'S WHAT TO DO: > > * Please call both of your Senators toll-free at 1-888-449-3511. You can also call them using the Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121. Ask your Senators to vote in support of the Smith filibuster and to vote AGAINST the S. 254 language at every point along the way. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Voyageur hernias Date: 27 Jul 1999 14:15:48 EDT Jeff, I think you are right about the belts... IIRC, it was Cal-OSHA that not long ago released the results of a study indicating that the so-called 'support' belts were useless in preventing either hernia or back problems. BUT, you still see MANY people wearing them, as MANY companies still require them, probably becuase of their insurance companies. It could be that the voyagers THOUGHT they worked, and we all know the power of mind over matter..... not to mention the power of the danged insurance co's. Barn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cherokeoil@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "sign lanuage" Date: 27 Jul 1999 20:47:11 EDT I`d be interested in a copy of the tape to. You can get ahold of me off line to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: MtMan-List: Interesting gun control statistics (not period topic) Date: 27 Jul 1999 21:20:07 -0400 Here are some interesting statistics taht were forwarded to me.... Kinda makes you stop and think a bit... Addison Miller >Congress has been under the gun lately, no pun intended, The President >in his efforts to distort the truth has blasted Republicans and the 50 >Democrats who shot down his anti gun legislation. Let me give you a few >reasons why we don't need gun control. Here is documented proof of what >happens after gun control > >Soviet Union establishes gun control in 1929 >from 1929-1953 20 million political dissidents unable to defend >themselves are rounded up and exterminated. > >Turkey establishes gun control in 1911 from 1915 to 1917 1.5 million >Armenians, unable to defend themselves are rounded up and exterminated > >Germany establishes gun control in 1938 from 1939 til 1945 13 million >Jews, gypsies,homosexuals, mentally ill people and other mongrelized >folks are rounded up and exterminated > >China establishes gun control in 1935 from 1948-1952 20 million >political dissidents unable to defend themselves are rounded up and >exterminated > >Guatemala establishes gun control in 1964 from 64-1981 100,00 Mayan >Indians unable to defend themselves are rounded up and exterminated. > >Uganda establishes gun control in 1970 from 1971-1979 300,00 >Christians unable to defend themselves are rounded up and exterminated. > >Cambodia establishes gun control in 1956 from 1975-1977 one million >educated people, unable to defend themselves are rounded up and >exterminated. > >Need I say more ? That's how I see it !! > > > > > >----------------------- Internet Header -------------------------------- >Sender: teddwebb@pop.mindspring.com >Received: from smtp2.mindspring.com (smtp2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.32]) > by hil-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.19) with ESMTP id >VAA20346; > Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:10:39 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from pop.mindspring.com (user-37kaa7b.dialup.mindspring.com >[207.69.40.235]) > by smtp2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA32088; > Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:10:09 -0400 (EDT) >Message-ID: <377033CC.EDC50276@pop.mindspring.com> >Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:09:33 -0400 >From: Tedd Webb >Reply-To: teddwebb@mindspring.com >Organization: Innovative Marketing of America, Inc. >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: teddwebb@mindspring.com >Subject: Webb's World 6/23/99 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; >x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >-------------------- End Forwarded Message -------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Women Date: 27 Jul 1999 22:32:34 +0000 10:00 p.m. Tuesday EST I found a new book, A Rendezvous Reader: Tall, Tangled, and True Tales of the Mountain Men 1805-1850 edited by James H. Maguire, et al. In "Marriage and Settlement Patterns of Rocky Mountain Trappers and Traders," William R. Swagerty discusses his statistical anaylsis of the information in LeRoy Hafen's series "The Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West." Studying not only the 292 biographical essays collected in the Hafen series but also twenty additional biographies, Swagerty found that most trappers had only one wife (1.45 average). By 1834 first marriage had taken place for the majority. Of 312 cases, 182, 58.3 percent, never married again. Some of these marriages occurred before the husband headed west. However, 106, or 38.9 percent, of 272 first marriages were with Indian women. Twenty men married mixed bloods, while forty-four (16.1 percent) wedded Anglo- Americans. Many French-American marriages (9.2 percent) were consummated before the men involved left the St. Louis area; however, only six of the forty-two known Canadians married other Canadians. Fifty-two trappers who frequented Santa Fe married Spanish-American women there or in Taos (19.1 percent of all first marriages and 67.7 percent of all who would eventually settle in the Taos region), while of those who went on to California, only one-half married daughters of Californios. This is a very enjoyable book. It has readable accounts by and about mountain men. Laura Glise ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 27 Jul 1999 21:44:06 -0500 re:long lines chickenhawk If you are using netscape, check 'view', then down near the bottom, hit 'wrap long lines' and save it. This will let you read without strain. rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Tape Date: 27 Jul 1999 22:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Be there a phone # one can call to order it? (specifically, the new higher quality tape mentioned by larry pendleton). BTW: about 12 years ago saw two Natives from Walpole Island (Chippewa, Ottawa, and Potawatomi located in Ontario Canada off Lake St.Clair) talk sign - very interesting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: AMM-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject Date: 27 Jul 1999 22:35:03 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BED880.44BB6D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 10:28 PM I just witnesed an awesome sight. The Space Shuttle passed from west to = east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night landing...probably = right about now. That puppy was moving faster than you would believe, = glowing orange and leaving a white contrail from horizon to horizon, a = sight made even more fantastic by the clear sky and full moon. I have = rarely seen anything that made my hair stand on end, but folks, that = did. Godspeed to the crew and thanks for the show.....something I won't = soon forget. Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BED880.44BB6D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ratcliff =
To: AMM ; History List
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 10:28 PM
Subject: AMM-List: Space Shuttle...non period = subject

I just witnesed an awesome sight.  The Space Shuttle passed = from west=20 to east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night = landing...probably right=20 about now.  That puppy was moving faster than you would believe, = glowing=20 orange and leaving a white contrail from horizon to horizon, a sight = made even=20 more fantastic by the clear sky and full moon.   I have rarely = seen=20 anything that made my hair stand on end, but folks, that did.  = Godspeed to=20 the crew and thanks for the show.....something I won't soon = forget.
Lanney Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BED880.44BB6D60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject Date: 27 Jul 1999 22:28:07 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BED87F.4D00D920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just witnesed an awesome sight. The Space Shuttle passed from west to = east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night landing...probably = right about now. That puppy was moving faster than you would believe, = glowing orange and leaving a white contrail from horizon to horizon, a = sight made even more fantastic by the clear sky and full moon. I have = rarely seen anything that made my hair stand on end, but folks, that = did. Godspeed to the crew and thanks for the show.....something I won't = soon forget. Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BED87F.4D00D920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just witnesed an awesome sight.  The Space Shuttle passed = from west=20 to east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night = landing...probably right=20 about now.  That puppy was moving faster than you would believe, = glowing=20 orange and leaving a white contrail from horizon to horizon, a sight = made even=20 more fantastic by the clear sky and full moon.   I have rarely = seen=20 anything that made my hair stand on end, but folks, that did.  = Godspeed to=20 the crew and thanks for the show.....something I won't soon = forget.
Lanney Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BED87F.4D00D920-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject Date: 28 Jul 1999 03:38:49 GMT A few years back while at rendzvous at Groce's Plantation, the whole camp was treated to the spectacle of the (first) Russian Space Station breaking up when it hit the atmosphere. A truly monumental sight also. Probably the first time most of us had a kindly thought for the USSR (Cold War, don't ya know back then). Kinda neat watching billions and billions of rubles burning up. On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:28:07 -0500, you wrote: >I just witnesed an awesome sight. The Space Shuttle passed from west to= east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night landing...probably = right about now. That puppy was moving faster than you would believe, = glowing orange and leaving a white contrail from horizon to horizon, a = sight made even more fantastic by the clear sky and full moon. I have = rarely seen anything that made my hair stand on end, but folks, that did.= Godspeed to the crew and thanks for the show.....something I won't soon= forget. >Lanney Ratcliff Roy Parker We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks = to the internet, we know this is not true. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: AMM-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject Date: 28 Jul 1999 00:14:35 -0400 --------------FAA58C10D0224DD64EB6CB82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in Fla. And I missed it. Darnit. Linda Holley Ratcliff wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ratcliff > To: AMM ; History ListSent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 10:28 PMSubject: > AMM-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject > I just witnesed an awesome sight. The Space Shuttle passed from west > to east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night > landing...probably right about now. That puppy was moving faster than > you would believe, glowing orange and leaving a white contrail from > horizon to horizon, a sight made even more fantastic by the clear sky > and full moon. I have rarely seen anything that made my hair stand > on end, but folks, that did. Godspeed to the crew and thanks for the > show.....something I won't soon forget.Lanney Ratcliff --------------FAA58C10D0224DD64EB6CB82 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in Fla.  And I missed it.  Darnit.

Linda Holley

Ratcliff wrote:

 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ratcliff
To: AMM ; History ListSent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 10:28 PMSubject: AMM-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject
 I just witnesed an awesome sight.  The Space Shuttle passed from west to east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night landing...probably right about now.  That puppy was moving faster than you would believe, glowing orange and leaving a white contrail from horizon to horizon, a sight made even more fantastic by the clear sky and full moon.   I have rarely seen anything that made my hair stand on end, but folks, that did.  Godspeed to the crew and thanks for the show.....something I won't soon forget.Lanney Ratcliff
--------------FAA58C10D0224DD64EB6CB82-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject Date: 27 Jul 1999 21:13:01 -0700 --------------D4687F3601BE3F6393E56E5E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whatcha drinkin' Lanney? Got any more? Just kiddin'...no really, whatcha drinkin'? Medicine Bear Ratcliff wrote: > I just witnesed an awesome sight. The Space Shuttle passed from west > to east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night > landing...probably right about now. That puppy was moving faster than > you would believe, glowing orange and leaving a white contrail from > horizon to horizon, a sight made even more fantastic by the clear sky > and full moon. I have rarely seen anything that made my hair stand > on end, but folks, that did. Godspeed to the crew and thanks for the > show.....something I won't soon forget.Lanney Ratcliff --------------D4687F3601BE3F6393E56E5E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whatcha drinkin' Lanney?  Got any more?  <VBG>
Just kiddin'...no really, whatcha drinkin'?

Medicine Bear
 

Ratcliff wrote:

I just witnesed an awesome sight.  The Space Shuttle passed from west to east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night landing...probably right about now.  That puppy was moving faster than you would believe, glowing orange and leaving a white contrail from horizon to horizon, a sight made even more fantastic by the clear sky and full moon.   I have rarely seen anything that made my hair stand on end, but folks, that did.  Godspeed to the crew and thanks for the show.....something I won't soon forget.Lanney Ratcliff
--------------D4687F3601BE3F6393E56E5E-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject Date: 27 Jul 1999 23:24:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01BED887.2C8EE760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nothing but clear, cold spring water. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frank=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 11:13 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject Whatcha drinkin' Lanney? Got any more? =20 Just kiddin'...no really, whatcha drinkin'?=20 Medicine Bear=20 =20 Ratcliff wrote:=20 I just witnesed an awesome sight. The Space Shuttle passed from = west to east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night = landing...probably right about now. That puppy was moving faster than = you would believe, glowing orange and leaving a white contrail from = horizon to horizon, a sight made even more fantastic by the clear sky = and full moon. I have rarely seen anything that made my hair stand on = end, but folks, that did. Godspeed to the crew and thanks for the = show.....something I won't soon forget.Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01BED887.2C8EE760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nothing but clear, cold spring water.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frank =
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 = 11:13=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Space=20 Shuttle...non period subject

Whatcha drinkin' Lanney?  Got any more?  = <VBG>=20
Just kiddin'...no really, whatcha drinkin'?=20

Medicine Bear
 =20

Ratcliff wrote:=20

I just witnesed an awesome sight.  The Space Shuttle passed = from west=20 to east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night = landing...probably=20 right about now.  That puppy was moving faster than you would = believe,=20 glowing orange and leaving a white contrail from horizon to horizon, = a sight=20 made even more fantastic by the clear sky and full moon.   = I have=20 rarely seen anything that made my hair stand on end, but folks, that = did.  Godspeed to the crew and thanks for the = show.....something I=20 won't soon forget.Lanney = Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_0066_01BED887.2C8EE760-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Indian Sign Lanuage" video Date: 28 Jul 1999 06:59:17 -0700 Folks, We have just received the new tapes that Larry has just mentioned of : "Indian Sign Language" with Larry Pendleton, cost is $ 24.95 plus postage, at $ 3.25 (not sure on postage yet). Will have on webe site either tonight or tomorrow night, the part no# is CSV-101 for reference. Check Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. at : http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ like mentioned information should be put in either tonight or tomorrow night, as soon as web master can get to it. Thanks Buck Conner dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. > On Tue, 27 July 1999, Cherokeoil@aol.com wrote: > > I`d be interested in a copy of the tape to. You can get ahold of me off line > to. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Nelson, Roy S" Subject: MtMan-List: tanning recipes Date: 28 Jul 1999 10:18:31 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BED904.10DB63A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Could anyone help me out with some home tanning recipes for "hair on" ? I would like to make a shooting bag from a coon skin I still have in the freezer from last year. Thanks in advance. Scott ------_=_NextPart_001_01BED904.10DB63A4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable tanning recipes

  Could anyone help me out with = some home tanning recipes for "hair on" ? I would like to make a = shooting bag from a coon skin I still have in the freezer from last = year. Thanks in advance.

        =         =         =         =         =         Scott

------_=_NextPart_001_01BED904.10DB63A4-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Hard Tack, Pilot Bread Date: 28 Jul 1999 10:25:18 EDT Brothers, Could someone please share some hard tack/pilot bread recipies? I've misplacced mine and can't remember the exact amounts. I looked in the archives but couldn't locate anything. Thanks in advance! Happy Trails Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Indian Sign Lanuage" video Date: 28 Jul 1999 10:48:23 -0700 Buck, Quess I missed what Larry said about "old" and "new" tapes, and price difference, which do I have coming ? Thanks Turtle. ______________________________________________ > On Wed, 28 July 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Folks, > > We have just received the new tapes that Larry has just mentioned of : "Indian Sign Language" with Larry Pendleton, cost is $ 24.95 plus postage, at $ 3.25 (not sure on postage yet). Will have on web site either tonight or tomorrow night, the part no# is CSV-101 for reference. > > Check Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. at : http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > > like mentioned; information should be put in either tonight or tomorrow night, as soon as web master can get to it. > > Thanks > Buck Conner > dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: "Indian Sign Lanuage" video Date: 28 Jul 1999 11:03:43 -0700 Larry said they have changed to a better quality tape, cost to produce and costs in general have raised cost of tape. The tape sent is the new better quality tape, believe everything has been upgraded per Larry. Later Buck _________________________________________ > On Wed, 28 July 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Buck, > Quess I missed what Larry said about "old" and "new" tapes, and price difference, which do I have coming ? > > Thanks > Turtle. > > ______________________________________________ > > On Wed, 28 July 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > We have just received the new tapes that Larry has just mentioned of : "Indian Sign Language" with Larry Pendleton, cost is $ 24.95 plus postage, at $ 3.25 (not sure on postage yet). Will have on web site either tonight or tomorrow night, the part no# is CSV-101 for reference. > > > > Check Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. at : http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > > > > like mentioned; information should be put in either tonight or tomorrow night, as soon as web master can get to it. > > > > Thanks > > Buck Conner > > dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hard Tack Recipe Date: 28 Jul 1999 14:55:46 -0700 Todd, Here is my Hardtack recipe. It's from the New Ulm, MN militia. It is dated 1863. All dogs, and most people, like it. 3 cups milk (raw or buttermilk) 2 talblespoons Sugar (raw, brown) 1 tablespoon Salt 8 cups flour (3 cups whole wheat, 5 cups unbleached) 4 tablespoons shortening Mix well and roll out 1/4" thick. Cut 3" x 3" squares. Punch holes in pieces with a wooden spoon handle (like a soda cracker) Bake at 400 dg for 35 minutes (to taste) If you're going to use hardtack soon, don't bake as long- this will leave more moisture in mix. It will be easier to eat, but won't keep as long. Store in a cloth sack, not a sealed container (or it will mold). I've been passing this stuff out for a long time. In fact folks remembered me as the guy with the good hardtack, hence my name 'Hardtack'. It has been used for communion at services at rendezvous many times, it's unleavened bread. My Gt- G'pa was a member of the New Ulm Militia at about the turn of the century. The militia unit was formed in 1862, after the Sioux Uprising in the area. It was formed to defend the town. The Unit has never seen action, but has always been active. They are at all the Public functions, etc... They use the original canons, which were donated by the good people of Cincinatti in 1862. Hope you enjoy the recipe. Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: MtMan-List: "Indian Sign Language" new version Date: 28 Jul 1999 16:17:19 -0700 Folks, We have received the new tapes that Larry has just mentioned: "Indian Sign Language" with Larry Pendleton, cost is $ 24.95 plus postage, at $ 3.25 (not sure on postage yet, but close). NOW have on web site, the part no# is CSV-101 Check Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. at : http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ Thanks Buck Conner dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. Later, Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: AMM-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject Date: 28 Jul 1999 20:00:24 -0700 -----Original Message----- Lanney, I saw the thing the first time it landed in FLA. It came over about 5:00 AM. Since I was Dairy Farming back then, I was definitely up at that time of day. One thing that was neat was the sound. It sounded like someone running a arc welder. Kind of popping and frying. Were you able to here it ? I don't know if I had been in town if I could have heard it. Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: Ratcliff To: AMM ; History List Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 8:28 PM Subject: AMM-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject I just witnesed an awesome sight. The Space Shuttle passed from west to east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night landing...probably right about now. That puppy was moving faster than you would believe, glowing orange and leaving a white contrail from horizon to horizon, a sight made even more fantastic by the clear sky and full moon. I have rarely seen anything that made my hair stand on end, but folks, that did. Godspeed to the crew and thanks for the show.....something I won't soon forget. Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hard Tack, Pilot Bread Date: 28 Jul 1999 20:20:21 -0500 Todd, Nabisco actually sells pilot bread, calling it Crown Pilot. It is sold = only in New England but Nabisco will sell it to you and ship it to your = door in amounts as small as half a case....12 boxes the size of graham = cracker cartons....at around $3.00, maybe more now, per box. I bought a = case a couple of years ago and still have three boxes left. I forget = the exact details, but in the late 18th century a New England baker got = a contract with the brand new United States to supply pilot bread to the = navy, which got his business off to a good start. As time went by, his = business was one of the handful of bakeries that merged to form National = Biscuit Company....Nabisco. The recipe used is said to be as close to = the original as modern supplies and regulations will permit. They are = essentially slightly crisper than usual soda crackers, but without the = perforations across the middle of each cracker. They are baked a little = browner than saltines and have a distintive flavor....sort of like = toasted saltines. There are four rows of seven little holes separated = by four rows of four little holes that run the lenght of each cracker = and "Crown Pilot" is embossed in the cracker. Nabisco tried to = discontinue them but the good folks in New England raised so much ruckus = about it (kahn't eat chowdah without 'em) that Nabisco relented and put = them back on the shelves in that area. Call Nabisco for ordering = information at 1-800-NABISCO. That is 800-622-4726. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 9:25 AM > Brothers, >=20 > Could someone please share some hard tack/pilot bread recipies? I've=20 > misplacced mine and can't remember the exact amounts. I looked in the=20 > archives but couldn't locate anything. Thanks in advance! >=20 > Happy Trails >=20 > Todd Glover >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hard Tack, Pilot Bread Date: 28 Jul 1999 21:48:28 EDT Todd, I have a reprint from an old Mother Earth News that has about 2 dozen recipes for hardtack. Different flavors, etc. Rye, wheat and on and on. From an authentic standpoint, these don't make it, but from a taste bud position, they are worth experimenting with. If you want it let me know. Jim Hardee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Some Northwest Happenings in Late July and August Date: 28 Jul 1999 19:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Two Rivers Rendezvous When: July 30 - Aug 1 Where: Approx. 21 miles east of Libby, MT Details: Rifle Trail , Hawk and knife, Pistol trail, Mountainman Run, Peewee trail, Long gong, Fun shoots, Games for all ages, Junior rifle giveaway, traders welcome, period dress encouraged. Fees: Shooting: blanket prize + $15/single $25/family Camping: $5 Trader: $5 or a donation to the blanket More Info? Contact the following folks: Dave Windom 3688 Hwy 2 S Libby, MT 59923 Ph# 406 293-7251 Beth Kumle 1600 Cabinet Ave. Libby, MT 59923 Ph# 406 293-7672 Mark Morain email at mmorain@libby.org 5640 Champion Haul Rd. Libby, MT 59923 PH# 406 293-8239 ************************************************ Little Butte Mountain Men Bessie Creek Primitive Rendezvous When: Aug 20-22 Where: Bessie Creek (near Prospect), OR Details: See thier website at http://eddie.grrtech.com/LBMM/ Fees: based on attendance, usually between $8.00 - $10.00. More Info? Contact Crazy Wolf at (541) 826-5145 ************************************************ Cataldo Mission Trader's Rendezvous When: Aug 21-22 Where: The Old Cataldo Mission, Idaho. From Couer D'Alene, go east on 90, signs will be posted. Details: Call the Park at 208-682-3814. This is supposed to be a really good event that is getting better every year. Whether you need supplies, or just want to sit around and talk Blackpowder stuff, it's a good one. Fees: More Info? (208)682-3814 ************************************************ "1999 BENEFIT RENDEZVOUS" For the Make a Wish Foundation Sponsered by: SIMLA (Southern Idaho Muzzle Loaders ASSN.) When: Aug 27-29, 1999 Where: Sawtooth Nat'l forest, South Hills. Take HWY 93 south of Twin Falls, Idaho, to one mile north of Rogerson. Turn east on Shoshone Basin Road (gravel). Travel approx. 20-22 miles to Langford Flats, there will be lots of signs posted for you to follow. Details: Trailwalk, knife and hawk, long gong, paper range, pistol, revolver, team shoot, firestarting. Potluck on Saturday night (all are welcome). Net Proceeds go to the "Make a wish Foundation". Bring your own water and firewood. Be prepared for closed fire season, plan on alternative cooking source if needed. Fees: $10 plus $2 per person. Shooting: Adults $10, juniors and Peewees $5. ***No blanket Prizes*** More Info? Contact Ron Corle at 208-734-6204, Scott Hoffman at 208-543-5709, or Jay Edmons at 208-733-8615. ************************************************ Lower Yellowstone Plainsmen Two Day Shoot When: 28-29 Aug Where: Glendive, Montana Details: Rifle and pistol match at a range west of Glendive. Saturday shoots are primitive, gun style blanket shoots. On sunday the regular aggregate pisto and rifle shoots are held. Over night camping on the range is encouraged. Sundays matches consist of two pistol matches and six rifle matches. Pistols shot at 25 and 50 yards, rifle at 25, 50 and 100 yards. Offhand, crossed sticks and bench rest. Fees: Sat: $2 and blanket prize, Sun: $1 per match or $6 for all day. More Info? Contact John Groshart at jonancy1@juno.com Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting gun control statistics (not period Date: 28 Jul 1999 22:57:04 EDT It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years in Australia....they lost their gun ownership rights very recently (from a historical perspective) One can paint many a scenario that "COULD" easily become a reality in this country. It is quite interesting to me that the constitution basically is a document created to limit the power of government. But today it is being used to limit the freedom of We The People. We need to stand up for our beliefs and protect our freedoms. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: AMM-List: Space Shuttle...non period subject Date: 28 Jul 1999 23:05:07 EDT Lanney wrote: << I just witnesed an awesome sight. The Space Shuttle passed from west to east right over Texas headed to Florida for a night landing. >> If you ever have the chance to witness a night time launch of the space shuttle it is worth a long drive, the long wait and possible launch delays. Seen from Cocoa Beach in Florida it is one awesome sight. It lights up the sky and the beach for miles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Date: 29 Jul 1999 09:17:11 -0700 Just to clear up the white women in the west story a little: Narcissa Whitman and Eliza Spaulding traveled west together with their missionary husbands in 1836. The Spauldings established thier mission at Lapwai and the Whitmans at Walla Walla. These are the earliest white women in the rocky mountain west that I've come upon. Kurt > TrapRJoe, > > > As to white women, I believe that Narsisa Whitman and perhaps a couple other > missionary wives were the first white women to be reported at rendezvous. I > don't remember the particular year but it was 1837 or later when they came > through with their husbands on the way to minister to the Nez Perce in > particular. This is all pretty general info and I am sure there are those who > can elaborate but yup, there were lots of women at rendezvous. I remain........ > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: "Indian Sign Language" new version Date: 29 Jul 1999 08:10:09 -0700 Buck, Just checked the information, looks good. Can't wait to see what the tape is like - everyone is talking about the fine job Larry has done on "Indian Sign Language". Heard about it on several of the "lists" I belong to, thanks for letting us know you have it available. Turtle. > > "Indian Sign Language" with Larry Pendleton - video is NOW on web site, > the part No# is CSV-101 > > Check Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. at : http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Date: 29 Jul 1999 11:47:31 -0700 Kurt Westenbarger wrote: > Just to clear up the white women in the west story a little: Narcissa Whitman and > Eliza Spaulding traveled west together with their missionary husbands in 1836. > The Spauldings established thier mission at Lapwai and the Whitmans at Walla > Walla. These are the earliest white women in the rocky mountain west that I've > come upon. > Kurt Kurt, Thanks for cleaning up my guess's. Knew I was close but not on the mark, now I know what the mark was . Well, I knew what it was but forgot the specifics. Long and short term memory is going (well it is a good excuse). I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > > TrapRJoe, > > > > > > As to white women, I believe that Narsisa Whitman and perhaps a couple other > > missionary wives were the first white women to be reported at rendezvous. I > > don't remember the particular year but it was 1837 or later when they came > > through with their husbands on the way to minister to the Nez Perce in > > particular. This is all pretty general info and I am sure there are those who > > can elaborate but yup, there were lots of women at rendezvous. I remain........ > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: "Indian Sign Language" new version Date: 29 Jul 1999 14:04:26 -0700 Got my tape this morning in the mail, haven't had time to watch, thanks Buck for the fast service. Oh, thanks for the tip on the free e-mail with US West, seems to work fine. Concho > Buck, > Just checked the information, looks good. Can't wait to see what the tape is like - everyone is talking about the fine job Larry has done on "Indian Sign Language". Heard about it on several of the "lists" I belong to, thanks for letting us know you have it available. > Turtle. > > > > > "Indian Sign Language" with Larry Pendleton - video is NOW on web site, > > the part No# is CSV-101 > > > > Check Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. at : http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hard Tack, Pilot Bread Date: 29 Jul 1999 18:07:47 -0500 On 1999-07-28 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >X-UIDL: 33c60623bb53fd284de39a4d7bdf3003 >Todd, >I have a reprint from an old Mother Earth News that has about 2 >dozen recipes for hardtack. Different flavors, etc. Rye, wheat >and on and on. From an authentic standpoint, these don't make it, >but from a taste bud position, they are worth experimenting with. >If you want it let me know. >Jim Hardee What issue #? Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: "Indian Sign Language" Date: 29 Jul 1999 19:59:57 -0700 DL, When did you come back to the States, haven't seen you since the late 80's, early 90's, get tired of the Northwest Territory ? Haven't seen the name "Concho" for years, soon as I saw it I knew it was the crazy one, what happened - you buying a "sign language" tape, you used to teach it brother ! See your like the rest of us, signing up for free internet e-mail. Let's here from you on some of the stuff talked about, you have a wealth of knowledge on American History after teaching all those years. Take care. Turtle. > Got my tape this morning in the mail, haven't had time to watch, thanks Buck for the fast service. Oh, thanks for the tip on the free e-mail with US West, seems to work fine. > > Concho > D. L. Smith > Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: "Indian Sign Language" [off topic] Date: 30 Jul 1999 04:50:45 -0700 Turtle, Didn't realize Daniel Smith was "DL" or "Concho" when sending him the "sign" tape. I bet the gave him a free rise out of the NW Territory - tar and feathers included. Should be an interesting tale. I'll call Crosby Brown and warn him that "Concho" is living in the same town, lock up the kids and small animals - only kidding DL. _______________________________________________ > On Thu, 29 July 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > DL, > When did you come back to the States, haven't seen you since the late 80's, early 90's, get tired of the Northwest Territory ? > Haven't seen the name "Concho" for years, soon as I saw it I knew it was the crazy one, what happened - you buying a "sign language" tape, you used to teach it brother ! > See your like the rest of us, signing up for free internet e-mail. Let's here from you on some of the stuff talked about, you have a wealth of knowledge on American History after teaching all those years. > Take care. > Turtle. > > > Got my tape this morning in the mail, haven't had time to watch, thanks Buck for the fast service. Oh, thanks for the tip on the free e-mail with US West, seems to work fine. > > > > Concho > > D. L. Smith > > Washington, MO. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: MtMan-List: Re: "Indian Sign Language" [off topic] Date: 30 Jul 1999 09:05:02 -0700 Well Folks, After being in the NW for the last 12 years and returning to the lower 48, these two are still the same with their "cute cheap shots". I paid for my ride Buck, and the tar wasn't that hard to remove either. Turtle are you still as slow as years ago ? I have already talked to Mr. Brown and he gave his best to all, he's working on the Lewis theory not being correct - lots of doc. information. Thanks guys "Concho" Yes, I look forward to having input on this list. __________________________________________ > On Fri, 30 July 1999, "Buck" wrote: > Turtle, > Didn't realize Daniel Smith was "DL" or "Concho" when sending him the "sign" tape. I bet they gave him a free ride out of the NW Territory - tar and feathers included. Should be an interesting tale. > > I'll call Crosby Brown and warn him that "Concho" is living in the same town, lock up the kids and small animals - only kidding DL. > _______________________________________________ > > > On Thu, 29 July 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > DL, > > When did you come back to the States, haven't seen you since the late 80's, early 90's, get tired of the Northwest Territory ? D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Powderhawk" Subject: MtMan-List: "Indian Sign Language" new version Date: 30 Jul 1999 12:07:58 -0700 Hello List, I must have deleted Clark & Sons Merc. web site address, want to order "Indian Sign Language". Thanks. Keep your powder dry Powderhawk Historian-Reenacter-Writer Lake Mills, IA Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Indian Sign Language" new version Date: 30 Jul 1999 13:50:46 -0700 http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > On Fri, 30 July 1999, "Powderhawk" wrote: > > Hello List, > > I must have deleted Clark & Sons Merc. web site address, want to order "Indian Sign Language". > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Powderhawk" Subject: MtMan-List: "Indian Sign Language" new version Date: 31 Jul 1999 13:36:03 -0700 Hello List, Thank you for the replies, must have gotten a dozen of them on Clark & Sons URL. I can always depend on answers to my questions and sometimes more than expected. > I must have deleted Clark & Sons Merc. web site address, want to order "Indian Sign Language". > > Thanks. Keep your powder dry Powderhawk Historian-Reenacter-Writer Lake Mills, IA Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lewis Kevin Raper" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hard Tack, Pilot Bread Date: 31 Jul 1999 22:11:02 -0400 Jim, Could you scan them and post them or e-mail them to me? Thanks, Possum Hunter "No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in life" ( Testimony of Anabaptist leader Hans Denk) ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 9:48 PM > Todd, > > I have a reprint from an old Mother Earth News that has about 2 dozen recipes > for hardtack. Different flavors, etc. Rye, wheat and on and on. From an > authentic standpoint, these don't make it, but from a taste bud position, > they are worth experimenting with. If you want it let me know. > > Jim Hardee >