From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Thoughts on a Year's End Date: 01 Jan 2000 01:02:21 -0800 My Brothers, It is almost one here in the northwest. I guess the world has not ended and we must be Y2K compliant or I would not be sending this out. I hope that your new years was as good as it could be. May the spirits see you though another year. And may you always have the sunshine on you when you are in camp and may your bedroll be soft. A Brother Wayne Harper 3 strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Aphishamores Date: 31 Dec 2000 23:12:26 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BF53E4.80941320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Finally a subject I feel somewhat qualified to contribute to. Joe Back shows a picture of an aparejo in his book Horses, Hitches. and = Rocky Trails. He discribes it as a "good Spainish pack saddle." It = does appear to have more padding built into it than other types of pack = saddles and I have heard that it was good for more wieght than a = sawbuck. But that could be simply because the Spainards were just more = prone to over loading their stock. The referances to apishamores that I have read appear to refer more to a = saddle pad that went over the tree of a saddle (both pack and riding) = rather than under it. It would be similar to a mochilla although from = the sound at least of softer material. In this use it seems like it = would wear the riders hide more than the stock animal. =20 =20 I am blessed/cursed with a 1400 lbs quarter horse and several other such = critters including a eight month old long ear. I will be exceedingly = pleased to experiment with any hair on buffalo hide if someone would = like to donate the above said item to me. Yours=20 WYnn =20 =20 Regarding these...Dick Patten in his new BOBVIII article talks about = using a buffalo apishemore nad found that they rubbed his horses and mules bad. Have others found this to be the case nad what do they do instead? Rick -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of George Noe Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 4:04 AM In Terry C. Johnston's book "Blood Song". book 8 of the series "THE PLAINSMEN" I have found , Aphishamores, the leather and canvas covers for the pack saddles. Aparejos, saddle pads used beneath the mules' wooden pack frames. Just thought I wood pass this along as I raised the question earlier. grn ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BF53E4.80941320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Finally a subject I feel somewhat = qualified to=20 contribute to.
 
Joe Back shows a picture of an aparejo = in his book=20 Horses, Hitches. and Rocky Trails.  He discribes it as a "good = Spainish=20 pack saddle."    It does appear to have more padding = built into=20 it than other types of pack saddles and I have heard that it was good = for more=20 wieght than a sawbuck.  But that could be simply because the = Spainards were=20 just more prone to over loading their stock.
 
The referances to apishamores that I = have read=20 appear to refer more to a saddle pad that went over the tree of a  = saddle=20 (both pack and riding) rather than under it.  It would be similar = to a=20 mochilla although from the sound at least of softer material.  In = this use=20 it seems like it would wear the riders hide more than the stock=20 animal.   
 
I am blessed/cursed with a 1400 lbs = quarter horse=20 and several other such critters including a eight month = old long=20 ear.  I will be exceedingly pleased to experiment with any = hair on=20 buffalo hide if someone would like to donate the above said item to = me. =20 <G>
 
Yours
WYnn
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:51:37 = +0000
From: rick_williams@byu.edu
Subjec= t: RE:=20 MtMan-List: Aphishamores ???

Regarding these...Dick Patten in his = new=20 BOBVIII article talks about using a
buffalo apishemore nad found that = they=20 rubbed his horses and mules bad.
Have others found this to be the = case nad=20 what do they do instead?
Rick

-----Original = Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.= xmission.com
[mailto:owner-hist_text= @lists.xmission.com]On=20 Behalf Of George Noe
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 4:04 = AM
To: hist_=20 text
Subject: MtMan-List: Aphishamores ???


 In Terry = C.=20 Johnston's book "Blood Song". book 8 of
the series "THE = PLAINSMEN"
 I=20 have found ,
 Aphishamores, the leather and canvas covers for=20 the
pack saddles.
   Aparejos, saddle pads used beneath = the=20 mules'
wooden pack frames.
 Just thought I wood pass this = along as I=20 raised the
question=20 earlier.
 grn



------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BF53E4.80941320-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel Date: 31 Dec 2000 23:26:26 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BF53E6.754E1C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My nephew and I were discussing the merits and faults of lighting fires = with flint and steel and he posed a question as to how someone in say = Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the home. Or another way = to put it is what was then the state of the art fire making method? I = told him I did not know but I have a great source for such information! My next question is how do some of you carry your "fire kit"? = Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the same tin you make it = in? And how do you keep it from making a lot of noise? Thank You all for sharing your knowledge and being so damned = entertaining WYnn=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BF53E6.754E1C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My nephew and I were discussing the = merits and=20 faults of lighting fires with flint and steel and he posed a question as = to how=20 someone in say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the = home.  Or=20 another way to put it is what was then the state of the art fire making=20 method?  I told him I did not know but I have a great source for = such=20 information!
 
 
My next question is how do some of you = carry your=20 "fire kit"?  Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the same = tin you=20 make it in?  And how do you keep it from making a lot of=20 noise?
 
Thank You all for sharing your = knowledge and=20 being so damned entertaining
WYnn 
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BF53E6.754E1C20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel Date: 01 Jan 2000 13:36:47 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01BF545D.3FF86B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wynn, I pack my char in the same tin I make it in. Over the char I put a = piece of buckskin and on top of that I put my steel and flints. The tin = is then closed and inserted into a small leather beltpouch made = especially for the size of the altoid tin. Also in the pouch I have = shoved some tinder just in case I can not find it in the field. FVR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 1:26 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel My nephew and I were discussing the merits and faults of lighting = fires with flint and steel and he posed a question as to how someone in = say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the home. Or another = way to put it is what was then the state of the art fire making method? = I told him I did not know but I have a great source for such = information! =20 My next question is how do some of you carry your "fire kit"? = Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the same tin you make it = in? And how do you keep it from making a lot of noise? =20 Thank You all for sharing your knowledge and being so damned = entertaining WYnn=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01BF545D.3FF86B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wynn,
 
I pack my char in the same tin I make = it in. =20 Over the char I put a piece of buckskin and on top of that I put my = steel and=20 flints.  The tin is then closed and inserted into a small leather = beltpouch=20 made especially for the size of the altoid tin.  Also in the pouch = I have=20 shoved some tinder just in case I can not find it in the = field.
 
FVR
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wynn &=20 Gretchen Ormond
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Saturday, January 01, = 2000 1:26=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and=20 Steel

My nephew and I were discussing the = merits and=20 faults of lighting fires with flint and steel and he posed a question = as to=20 how someone in say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the=20 home.  Or another way to put it is what was then the state of the = art=20 fire making method?  I told him I did not know but I have a great = source=20 for such information!
 
 
My next question is how do some of = you carry your=20 "fire kit"?  Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the = same tin=20 you make it in?  And how do you keep it from making a lot of=20 noise?
 
Thank You all for sharing your = knowledge and=20 being so damned entertaining
WYnn 
------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01BF545D.3FF86B80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel Date: 01 Jan 2000 10:59:13 -0800 > Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > My nephew and I were discussing the merits and faults of lighting > fires with flint and steel and he posed a question as to how someone > in say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the home. Or > another way to put it is what was then the state of the art fire > making method? Wynn, I'm not an expert on what the state of the art was but I believe that back east by that time things had progressed to the point that a form of matches was being used but I am not certain about the dates. I would suspect that even so, the common man might not be able to afford such a luxury. One of the merits of doing your fire making with flint and steel is surely the difficulty in finding matches if they were available at all. Kinda the same philosophy as shooting flint locks rather than having to carry enough caps to last a season. > My next question is how do some of you carry your "fire kit"? > Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the same tin you make it > in? And how do you keep it from making a lot of noise? There are probably as many ways as there are folks doing this but I don't use char cloth. I use charred punk wood, usually made from rotten birch but most any deciduous tree wood that is rotten to the point of being stringy and falling apart will work. It is fairly fragile so is kept in a separate flat can that may be used to make more. That can is stored with some form of tinder such as pounded cedar bark or dry grass or even dry tree moss (I even have been known to use squares of burlap sacks that supplies come in) along with a piece of flint and a steel are stored in a greased leather bag. I may also carry a brass oval can with a burning glass in the lid, a steel, flint and small can of char. The hard rattley things are wrapped with tinder. Since the tinder has some padding to it there is no rattling if everything is kept separated. I also have an emergency kit that is in a small silver box wrapped in a bee's waxed rag which keeps it quit waterproof if I should go overboard. It has a small cap tin with char packed with some tinder and the flint and steel. Makes no noise either. Some where in my kit if there is room is a waxed linen bag of tinder and candle stubs. It is usually rolled up in my bed roll. I usually carry a couple small sticks of pitch pine too but separate if they are long. No, I do not lack for fire makings! This past summer I found that the hanging tree moss on this side of the Rockies will work for tinder if there is a bit of forest duff ( pine needles/fir needles/bark chips) mixed in and it is bone dry. Actually burns like it has been nitrated with salt peter or pitch pine. I'm curious as to how others do it too so wade in guys! I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping Date: 01 Jan 2000 11:06:53 -0800 The Hudson Bay Company's decision to make the Snake River country a "fur desert" was based upon political underpinings rather than strictly business goals. The thought was that the Oregon country was being divided between America and Canada, and that the Snake River country would probably go to the Americans, who were at that time working their way through and around the Blackfeet country and into the HBC strongholds along the Snake and Salmon rivers. Clearing the country of fur would take away any incentive for the Americans to advance through the country and set up in competition with HBC posts. Plus, since the writing was on the wall that Canada would lose access to the trapping grounds in question, they had no incentive not to clear out all of the resources they could get their hands on. Sounds a lot like "Barbarians at the Gate" to me. My question backatcha all is this: The Blackfoot nation zealously kept the American Fur Company's Upper Missouri Outfit and the Rocky Mountain Fur Company's brigades from effectively trapping Blackfeet hunting grounds because they felt that these parties were taking Blackfeet beaver. They would not trade with the Americans because they had a long-term trading relationship with the Canadian firms. If they were buddy-buddy with the HBC how could the HBC get away with destroying Blackfoot fur country? B'st'rd Huss931@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Angela, > Thanks for the information about the HBC's intention about the attempt to > create a "fur desert." I don't know much about the Canadian operations. I > guess that HBC wanted to eliminate the competition through destruction of its > competitor's fur sources? That seems pretty short-sighted. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping Date: 01 Jan 2000 11:07:20 -0800 Here's some further information on over-trapping, from Utley's "A Life Wild and Perilous". The context is some reflection as the fur trade era nears its end as 1840 approaches. "As much as changing hat styles, the beaver trade strangled itself. Beyond every man's financial incentive to trap every beaver he could, competition between American companies and with the Hundon's Bay Company took a dreadful toll on the beaver population. As early as 1831, the veteran William Gordon declared that 'The furs are diminishing, and this diminution is general & extensive. The beaver may be considered as extirpated on this side of the Rocky Mountains.' Allowed to recoup for a few years, he thought, the numbers would rebound. West of the Continental Divide, extermination could also be expected. The Convention of 1828, extending joint occupation of Oregon indefinitely, 'lends to the ravaging of the country as both parties do all they can to make the most out of the present time.'" It is probably fortunate that changing styles and the Panic of 1837 took the burnish off of the fur of beaver. In 1832 J.J. Astor's son wrote to Chouteau in St. Louis that nutria fur made an excellent hat and could be sold for less than half the price of a beaver hat. Those who tried to follow Ashley's example in dragging a fortune out of the streams of the Rocky Mountains lacked two things that Ashley had going for him: innovation and timing. It looks like timing was what saved the beaver in the Rocky Mountains, too. While trappers continued to pursue beaver fur, and even do today, most know that they are reaping a quality of life reward in place of a financial one. The buffalo did not have the benefit of fashion and timing, and look what happened to them. B'st'rd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee S. Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping Date: 01 Jan 2000 14:14:21 -0800 JW Stephens wrote: > My question backatcha all is this: > The Blackfoot nation zealously kept the American Fur Company's Upper > Missouri Outfit and the Rocky Mountain Fur Company's brigades from > effectively trapping Blackfeet hunting grounds because they felt that > these parties were taking Blackfeet beaver. They would not trade with > the Americans because they had a long-term trading relationship with the > Canadian firms. If they were buddy-buddy with the HBC how could the HBC > get away with destroying Blackfoot fur country? Hallo From what I've read about the NWC and the HBC, they trapped a lot of area, but not generally in Blackfoot territory. Their posts in the interior of the Oregon Country were in Flathead, Nez Perce, Cayuse, Spokane, and Snake country.... I believe David Thompson, NWC, had to find another pass after ticking off the Blackfeet. Additionally, the Snake River Brigades launched by the HBC after the merger with the NWC indicate that while they knew the Blackfeet, they didn't trust them overly much. Finnian McDonald's 1822 expedition lost about seven men to the Blackfeet. Ross's expedition of 1823 had to scramble twice to avoid becoming trophies of a first a Piegan war party, and secondly a Blackfoot war party. Sooo, all was not roses for the HBC and the Blackfeet. YMOS Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel Date: 01 Jan 2000 18:53:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF5489.73388580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I made a belt pouch that holds my two Altoids tins (one for char cloth = and one for flint and steel) and a 4" round can that I put my rope = tinder in. I found that the small peices of rope that you can't use for = anything else (usually 18" or less) makes GREAT tinder. I pull it apart = and then roll it in to a "birds nest". Char cloth + rope nest + flint = and steel =3D good fire :) I also carry a small pouch of lighters knot = that has been shaved. Makes fire starting real easy... Ad Miller ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF5489.73388580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I made a belt pouch that holds my = two Altoids=20 tins (one for char cloth and one for flint and steel) and a 4" = round can=20 that I put my rope tinder in.  I found that the small peices of = rope that=20 you can't use for anything else (usually 18" or less) makes GREAT = tinder. I=20 pull it apart and then roll it in to a "birds nest".  = Char cloth=20 + rope nest + flint and steel =3D good fire :)  I also carry a = small pouch of=20 lighters knot that has been shaved.  Makes fire starting real=20 easy...
 
Ad Miller
 
------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF5489.73388580-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "TIM ROWE" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Y-2-K Date: 01 Jan 2000 22:20:19 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF54A6.636F3500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 7:18 PM > In a message dated 1/1/2000 2:15:13 PM Central Standard Time, > dunn24@hotmail.com writes: > > << > The Twelve Days Of Y2K > On the first hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "I can't use my A-T-M card. > "On the second hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "No traf-fic lights, > "And I can't use my A-T-M card." > On the third hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "Where are those darn can-dles, > "No traf-fic lights, > "And I can't use my A-T-M card. > "On the fourth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "Our toi-lets won't flush, > "Where are those darn can-dles," > No traf-fic lights, > "And i can't use my A-T-M card." > On the fifth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "YOU... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... > "Our toi-lets won't flush, " > Where are those darncan-dles, > "No-o traf-fic lights, > "And I can't use my A-T-M card. > "On the sixth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "Your hand is in my pock-et, > "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... > "Our toi-lets won'tflus, > "Where are those darn can-dles, > "No-o traf-fic lights, > "And I can't use my A-T-M card. > "On the sev-enth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "Why don't the phones work, > "Your hand is in my pock-et, > "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS!... > "Our toi-lets won't flush, > "Where are those darn > can-dles, > "No-o traf-fic lights, > "And I can't use my A-T-M card." > On the eighth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-ysay: > "There go the com-pu-ters, > "Why don't the phones work, > "Your hand is in mypock-et, > "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... > "Our toi-lets won'tflush, > "Where are those darn can-dles, > "No-o traf-fic lights, > "And I can't use my A-T-M card." > On the ninth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "Planes just keep on cir-cling, > "There go thecom-pu-ters, > "Why don't the phones work, > "Your hand is in mypock-et, > "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... > "Our toi-lets won'tflush, > "Where are those darn can-dles, > "No-o traf-fic lights, > "And I can't use my A-T-M card. > "On the tenth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, > "Planes just keep on cir-cling, > "There go the com-pu-ters, > "Why don't the phones work, > "Your hand is in mypock-et, > "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... > "Our toi-lets won'tflush, > "Where are those darn can-dles, > "No-o traf-fic lights, > "And I can't use my A-T-M card." > On the e-lev-enth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "Is it al-most o-ver, > "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, > "Planes just keep oncir-cling, > "There go the com-pu-ters, > "Why don't the phones work, > "Your hand is in my pock-et, > "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS!... > "Our toi-lets won't flush, > "Where are those darncan-dles, > "No-o traf-fic lights, > "And I can't use my A-T-M card." > On the twelfth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: > "Re-minds me of the old days, > "Is it al-mosto-ver, > "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, > "Planes just keep on cir-cling, > "There go thecom-pu-ters, > "Why can't the phones work, > "Your hand is in mypock-et, > "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... > "Our toi-lets won'tflush, > "Where are those darn can-dles, > "No-o traf-fic lights... > "AND I CAN'T USE MY A-T-M CARD!" > _________ >> > > ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF54A6.636F3500 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Y-2-K.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Y-2-K.eml" Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc05.mail.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Sat, 01 Jan 2000 15:15:13 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f167.hotmail.com [216.32.181.167]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Sat, 01 Jan 2000 15:14:58 -0500 Received: (qmail 90867 invoked by uid 0); 1 Jan 2000 20:14:58 -0000 Message-ID: <20000101201458.90866.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.156.160.69 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 01 Jan 2000 12:14:57 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.156.160.69] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is pretty funny! JESS The Twelve Days Of Y2K On the first hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "I can't use my A-T-M card. "On the second hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "No traf-fic lights, "And I can't use my A-T-M card." On the third hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "Where are those darn can-dles, "No traf-fic lights, "And I can't use my A-T-M card. "On the fourth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "Our toi-lets won't flush, "Where are those darn can-dles," No traf-fic lights, "And i can't use my A-T-M card." On the fifth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "YOU... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... "Our toi-lets won't flush, " Where are those darncan-dles, "No-o traf-fic lights, "And I can't use my A-T-M card. "On the sixth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "Your hand is in my pock-et, "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... "Our toi-lets won'tflus, "Where are those darn can-dles, "No-o traf-fic lights, "And I can't use my A-T-M card. "On the sev-enth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "Why don't the phones work, "Your hand is in my pock-et, "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS!... "Our toi-lets won't flush, "Where are those darn can-dles, "No-o traf-fic lights, "And I can't use my A-T-M card." On the eighth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-ysay: "There go the com-pu-ters, "Why don't the phones work, "Your hand is in mypock-et, "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... "Our toi-lets won'tflush, "Where are those darn can-dles, "No-o traf-fic lights, "And I can't use my A-T-M card." On the ninth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "Planes just keep on cir-cling, "There go thecom-pu-ters, "Why don't the phones work, "Your hand is in mypock-et, "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... "Our toi-lets won'tflush, "Where are those darn can-dles, "No-o traf-fic lights, "And I can't use my A-T-M card. "On the tenth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, "Planes just keep on cir-cling, "There go the com-pu-ters, "Why don't the phones work, "Your hand is in mypock-et, "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... "Our toi-lets won'tflush, "Where are those darn can-dles, "No-o traf-fic lights, "And I can't use my A-T-M card." On the e-lev-enth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "Is it al-most o-ver, "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, "Planes just keep oncir-cling, "There go the com-pu-ters, "Why don't the phones work, "Your hand is in my pock-et, "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS!... "Our toi-lets won't flush, "Where are those darncan-dles, "No-o traf-fic lights, "And I can't use my A-T-M card." On the twelfth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: "Re-minds me of the old days, "Is it al-mosto-ver, "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, "Planes just keep on cir-cling, "There go thecom-pu-ters, "Why can't the phones work, "Your hand is in mypock-et, "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... "Our toi-lets won'tflush, "Where are those darn can-dles, "No-o traf-fic lights... "AND I CAN'T USE MY A-T-M CARD!" __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF54A6.636F3500-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and strike a lights Date: 01 Jan 2000 23:55:03 EST Here is an amusing coffee story handed down from a crow family, that you may find interesting. The band of crow indians were traveling to visit one of the first forts that had been built in their territory, one man mostly to get coffee that he had tasted before when a white man traded with them. He was able to trade for coffee at the fort, and gave it to his wife to prepare for him. Now, she had never seen or drank coffee before, but she did just as her man told her to do, roasting the beans in the hot coals till dark colored, and then pounding them fine. She served a pile of them to him, and said, " they tasted dry so I mixed them with some fat ." "Thats not the way," he said. "You mix them with water, like soup." "Why didn't you say so?" she asked, and then dumped the pounded beans into the stew she had cooked. Her husband was not in a good humor by then, and he kicked the whole pot of stew over onto the ground! I think this is one old indian recipe I'll forgo. I don't know if you can classify this as one of them pemmican recipes, but if you boys are so inclined, have at her! As for fire starting kits, ours are very ordinary, just canvas scrap char cloth or any cotton, for that matter. I do believe that trappers probably did revert to using fungi or punk wood for their char after they had been out here a while. Our flint, steel, and char are carried in a strike a light tin. I used to have a piece of leather over the char, till I had to use it to patch my moccasin, & have never got around to replacing it.I carry mine in the shooting bag, Jill carries hers in a deer foot bag on her belt. We usually carry birdnesting and some fat wood rolled up in our bedroll for when we can't find dry birdnest around camp. We look for pitch pine, or fat wood on our travels, and chop a few small pieces to carry with us. Trees killed by lightening are good sources,lightening makes the sap rise to the surface of the wood. Save your little candle stubs, too, they are just as good as fat wood. We've only been on the list a short while, but thoroughly enjoy it, even when the fur is a flyin'! Its all been entertaining and educational! Just want to wish you all the best for the holiday seasons and the coming new century, and hope to see you all down the trail or in the mountains! Crazy Cyot and Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Y-2-K Date: 01 Jan 2000 20:59:40 -0800 I was on one of the Y2k implementation groups (informed user) for state of NV We had zero problems this am when we turned the mainframe from tits up to full tilt! Big non-event but this is funny ---------- >From: "TIM ROWE" >To: >Cc: >Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Y-2-K >Date: Sat, Jan 1, 2000, 10:20 PM > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: ; ; ; >; ; ; >; ; ; >; ; ; >; ; ; >; ; ; >; >Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 7:18 PM >Subject: Fwd: Y-2-K > > >> In a message dated 1/1/2000 2:15:13 PM Central Standard Time, >> dunn24@hotmail.com writes: >> >> << >> The Twelve Days Of Y2K >> On the first hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "I can't use my A-T-M card. >> "On the second hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "No traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the third hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card. >> "On the fourth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Our toi-lets won't flush, >> "Where are those darn can-dles," >> No traf-fic lights, >> "And i can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the fifth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "YOU... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won't flush, " >> Where are those darncan-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card. >> "On the sixth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Your hand is in my pock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won'tflus, >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card. >> "On the sev-enth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Why don't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in my pock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS!... >> "Our toi-lets won't flush, >> "Where are those darn >> can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the eighth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-ysay: >> "There go the com-pu-ters, >> "Why don't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in mypock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won'tflush, >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the ninth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Planes just keep on cir-cling, >> "There go thecom-pu-ters, >> "Why don't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in mypock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won'tflush, >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card. >> "On the tenth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, >> "Planes just keep on cir-cling, >> "There go the com-pu-ters, >> "Why don't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in mypock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won'tflush, >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the e-lev-enth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Is it al-most o-ver, >> "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, >> "Planes just keep oncir-cling, >> "There go the com-pu-ters, >> "Why don't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in my pock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS!... >> "Our toi-lets won't flush, >> "Where are those darncan-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the twelfth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Re-minds me of the old days, >> "Is it al-mosto-ver, >> "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, >> "Planes just keep on cir-cling, >> "There go thecom-pu-ters, >> "Why can't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in mypock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won'tflush, >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights... >> "AND I CAN'T USE MY A-T-M CARD!" >> _________ >> >> >> > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Y-2-K Date: 01 Jan 2000 20:59:40 -0800 I was on one of the Y2k implementation groups (informed user) for state of NV We had zero problems this am when we turned the mainframe from tits up to full tilt! Big non-event but this is funny ---------- >From: "TIM ROWE" >To: >Cc: >Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Y-2-K >Date: Sat, Jan 1, 2000, 10:20 PM > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: ; ; ; >; ; ; >; ; ; >; ; ; >; ; ; >; ; ; >; >Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 7:18 PM >Subject: Fwd: Y-2-K > > >> In a message dated 1/1/2000 2:15:13 PM Central Standard Time, >> dunn24@hotmail.com writes: >> >> << >> The Twelve Days Of Y2K >> On the first hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "I can't use my A-T-M card. >> "On the second hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "No traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the third hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card. >> "On the fourth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Our toi-lets won't flush, >> "Where are those darn can-dles," >> No traf-fic lights, >> "And i can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the fifth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "YOU... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won't flush, " >> Where are those darncan-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card. >> "On the sixth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Your hand is in my pock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won'tflus, >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card. >> "On the sev-enth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Why don't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in my pock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS!... >> "Our toi-lets won't flush, >> "Where are those darn >> can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the eighth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-ysay: >> "There go the com-pu-ters, >> "Why don't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in mypock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won'tflush, >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the ninth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Planes just keep on cir-cling, >> "There go thecom-pu-ters, >> "Why don't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in mypock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won'tflush, >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card. >> "On the tenth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, >> "Planes just keep on cir-cling, >> "There go the com-pu-ters, >> "Why don't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in mypock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won'tflush, >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the e-lev-enth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Is it al-most o-ver, >> "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, >> "Planes just keep oncir-cling, >> "There go the com-pu-ters, >> "Why don't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in my pock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS!... >> "Our toi-lets won't flush, >> "Where are those darncan-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights, >> "And I can't use my A-T-M card." >> On the twelfth hour of Y-2-K I heard some-bod-y say: >> "Re-minds me of the old days, >> "Is it al-mosto-ver, >> "Spoiled food tastes rot-ten, >> "Planes just keep on cir-cling, >> "There go thecom-pu-ters, >> "Why can't the phones work, >> "Your hand is in mypock-et, >> "YOU ... STU-PID JERRRRKS! ... >> "Our toi-lets won'tflush, >> "Where are those darn can-dles, >> "No-o traf-fic lights... >> "AND I CAN'T USE MY A-T-M CARD!" >> _________ >> >> >> > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: crazy & jill Date: 02 Jan 2000 01:09:10 -0500 I enjoyed your story in the T&LR about the hunting trip. Especially the story from different points of view. Hope to read more. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: over-trapping Date: 02 Jan 2000 04:58:23 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF54DD.FF317480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable : JW Stephens asked: . If they (the Blackfeet) were buddy-buddy with the HBC how could the = HBC get away with destroying Blackfoot fur country? B'st'rd Correct me if I am wrong but the Blackfeet country centered in what = would now be the Eastern Montana/Canada border. Of Course they wandered = a great bit but I do not think that they would concider the Snake River = country as their own. As I understand where Peter Ogden went with the = Snake River Brigade it was through Oregon/Idaho/Northern Utah. Even without this topographical difference I do not believe the HBC = would have been too worried about offending Indian allies if it got in = the way of reaching an important objective. They knew the Blackfeet = need English guns etc. The Blackfeet weren't going anywhere. Yours=20 WYnn ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF54DD.FF317480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
: JW Stephens asked:
. If they (the Blackfeet) were = buddy-buddy with the=20 HBC how could the HBC
get away with destroying Blackfoot fur=20 country?

B'st'rd
 
Correct me if I am wrong but the = Blackfeet country=20 centered in what would now be the Eastern Montana/Canada border.  = Of Course=20 they wandered a great bit but I do not think that they would concider = the Snake=20 River country as their own.  As I understand where Peter Ogden went = with=20 the Snake River Brigade it was through Oregon/Idaho/Northern = Utah.
 
Even without this topographical = difference I do not=20 believe the HBC would have been too worried about offending Indian = allies if it=20 got in the way of reaching an important objective.    = They knew=20 the Blackfeet need English guns etc.  The Blackfeet weren't going=20 anywhere.
 
Yours
WYnn
 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF54DD.FF317480-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: FWD: [Fwd: Cool Statistics] Date: 02 Jan 2000 17:33:29 -0700 DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Received: from speedy.pld.com [206.253.33.136] by mail.coyotenet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.03) id A34C3E4010E; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:17:48 MDT Received: from pld.com (gc-usr15.pld.com [209.42.80.142]) by speedy.pld.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA10312; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:06:31 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <386CF266.24A6CC83@pld.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Jack Arnold , Jackie , Jeff , Lonnie , Odie , Pat , Ralph , Tim Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Think you might enjoy these. I found them rather interesting. Work Statistics Can you imagine working at the following Company? It has a little over 500 employees with the following statistics: *29 have been accused of spousal abuse *7 have been arrested for fraud *19 have been accused of writing bad checks *117 have bankrupted at least two businesses *3 have been arrested for assault *71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit *14 have been arrested on drug-related charges *8 have been arrested for shoplifting *21 are current defendants in lawsuits *In 1998 alone, 84 were stopped for drunk driving Can you guess which organization this is? Give up? It's the 535 members of your United States Congress. The same group that perpetually cranks out hundreds upon hundreds of new laws designed to keep the rest of us in line. RFC822 header Received: from mail.coyotenet.net [207.174.95.34] by mail.market1.com (SMTPD32-5.01) id ADEF36300B2; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:19:43 -0600 Received: from cnip.net [207.174.86.11] by mail.coyotenet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.03) id ADFD15B012C; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:19:57 MDT Message-ID: <386D1D60.FE2610FD@cnip.net> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:17:20 -0700 From: Ralph McPherson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Barbara Kelly , ckwalton , craig staley , Erin Barnhart , Michael Myzia , Phyllis and Don Keas , Pisciotta's , "Roger W. Schneider" , Roy & Barbara Kelly , "ThunderWol@aol.com" , victoria a miller , "yelowroz1@aol.com" Subject: [Fwd: Cool Statistics] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F26CC70B1593B3AC6E23AA11" X-RCPT-TO: X-UIDL: 4658 Status: U ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel Date: 02 Jan 2000 17:24:20 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF5546.34331D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Myself, I have a can just for makein char. IT is a quart paint can with = 3 holes in both ends. I just put old levis cut up into 3 inch squares = and then throw them into the fire place. =20 I put my char in the same tin as my flint and steel, I put a little wax = around the edges to keep it water tight. I also shave a little cedar = twigs, especially when it is really wet out like here in the northwest. 3 strings =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF5546.34331D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Myself, I have a can just for makein = char. =20 IT is a quart paint can with 3 holes in both ends.  I just put old = levis=20 cut up into 3 inch squares and then throw them into the fire=20 place.  
 
I put my char in the same tin as my = flint and=20 steel,  I put a little wax around the edges to keep it water=20 tight.   I also shave a little cedar twigs,  especially = when it=20 is really wet out like here in the northwest.
 
3 strings  =20
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF5546.34331D60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping Date: 02 Jan 2000 19:26:36 -0800 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3029685996_98804_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I believe, Osbourne Russell places the blackfeet just barely in the headwaters of the Snake in eastern Idaho. As I remember from being a kid in Eastern Idaho the Shoshone Indians were in the valley of the Snake. The Blackfeet were moved to Fort Hall Reservation later? ---------- : JW Stephens asked: . If they (the Blackfeet) were buddy-buddy with the HBC how could the HBC get away with destroying Blackfoot fur country? B'st'rd Correct me if I am wrong but the Blackfeet country centered in what would now be the Eastern Montana/Canada border. Of Course they wandered a great bit but I do not think that they would concider the Snake River country as their own. As I understand where Peter Ogden went with the Snake River Brigade it was through Oregon/Idaho/Northern Utah. Even without this topographical difference I do not believe the HBC would have been too worried about offending Indian allies if it got in the way of reaching an important objective. They knew the Blackfeet need English guns etc. The Blackfeet weren't going anywhere. Yours WYnn --MS_Mac_OE_3029685996_98804_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping I believe, Osbourne Russell places the blackfeet just barely in the headwat= ers of the Snake in eastern Idaho.  As I remember from being a kid in E= astern Idaho the Shoshone Indians were in the valley of the Snake.  The= Blackfeet were moved to Fort Hall Reservation later?
----------
R>

: JW Stephens asked:
. If they (the Blackfeet) were buddy-buddy with the HBC how could the HBC get away with destroying Blackfoot fur country?

B'st'rd
 
Correct me if I am wrong but the Blackfeet country centered = in what would now be the Eastern Montana/Canada border.  Of Course they= wandered a great bit but I do not think that they would concider the Snake = River country as their own.  As I understand where Peter Ogden went wit= h the Snake River Brigade it was through Oregon/Idaho/Northern Utah.
 
Even without this topographical difference I do not believe = the HBC would have been too worried about offending Indian allies if it got = in the way of reaching an important objective.    They knew t= he Blackfeet need English guns etc.  The Blackfeet weren't going anywhe= re.
 
Yours
WYnn
 

--MS_Mac_OE_3029685996_98804_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping Date: 02 Jan 2000 22:48:02 -0700 Hello the List, Blackfeet were like grizz. They went where ever they wanted. If you include the Gros Ventre as Blackfeet, they deviled everyone in Snake River Country, Pierre's Hole, of course Three Fork (just east of modern Butte, MT), out in Wyoming, etc. You weren't safe from Bug's Boys most anywhere here in the "shinin' mountians". Blackfeet were never on Fort Hall reservation as "tenants". That dubious honor was given the various bands of Shoshoni and Bannocks. Blackfeet res is up in Browning, MT, bordering Glacier National Park. However, the Blackfoot River that does run near the Fort Hall reservation has been called the Blackfoot River since fur trade time. Shoshoni ranged clear up in Horse Prairie (near Dillon, MT) to the Yellowstone Park area, over south of Wind River, then down into Utah. Yup, all them boys got around! Allen Hall in Fort Hall Country At 07:26 PM 01/02/2000 -0800, you wrote: >I believe, Osbourne Russell places the blackfeet just barely in the >headwaters of the Snake in eastern Idaho. As I remember from being a kid in >Eastern Idaho the Shoshone Indians were in the valley of the Snake. The >Blackfeet were moved to Fort Hall Reservation later? >---------- >From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: over-trapping >Date: Sun, Jan 2, 2000, 3:58 AM > > >: JW Stephens asked: >. If they (the Blackfeet) were buddy-buddy with the HBC how could the HBC >get away with destroying Blackfoot fur country? > >B'st'rd > >Correct me if I am wrong but the Blackfeet country centered in what would >now be the Eastern Montana/Canada border. Of Course they wandered a great >bit but I do not think that they would concider the Snake River country as >their own. As I understand where Peter Ogden went with the Snake River >Brigade it was through Oregon/Idaho/Northern Utah. > >Even without this topographical difference I do not believe the HBC would >have been too worried about offending Indian allies if it got in the way of >reaching an important objective. They knew the Blackfeet need English >guns etc. The Blackfeet weren't going anywhere. > >Yours >WYnn > > > > >Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping > > >I believe, Osbourne Russell places the blackfeet just barely in the headwaters of the Snake in eastern Idaho.  As I remember from being a kid in Eastern Idaho the Shoshone Indians were in the valley of the Snake.  The Blackfeet were moved to Fort Hall Reservation later?
>----------
>From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@favorites.com>
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: MtMan-List: over-trapping
>Date: Sun, Jan 2, 2000, 3:58 AM
>
>
>
: JW Stephens asked:
>. If they (the Blackfeet) were buddy-buddy with the HBC how could the HBC
>get away with destroying Blackfoot fur country?
>
>B'st'rd
> 
>Correct me if I am wrong but the Blackfeet country centered in what would now be the Eastern Montana/Canada border.  Of Course they wandered a great bit but I do not think that they would concider the Snake River country as their own.  As I understand where Peter Ogden went with the Snake River Brigade it was through Oregon/Idaho/Northern Utah.
> 
>Even without this topographical difference I do not believe the HBC would have been too worried about offending Indian allies if it got in the way of reaching an important objective.    They knew the Blackfeet need English guns etc.  The Blackfeet weren't going anywhere.
> 
>Yours
>WYnn
> 
>
>
> > > Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 03 Jan 2000 01:39:45 -0500 (EST) Where Swan (Johnson's Flathead wife) shows him how to hunt grouse? by throwing a stone from within 8 feet? - without using a leather sling! Can such a hunting technique be backed up from any American Indian historical records? from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 03 Jan 2000 10:54:47 +0000 I don't know about no steenkin' grouse, but I once nailed a goose taking wing from about 20 feet with a fist-sized rock. Dropped it dead, to my chagrin. I was in college and didn't want it dead. I've also stalked grouse to within about 10 feet, so I suspect such a technique is possible, but no, I've never read of an incident like that. B'st'rd JON MARINETTI wrote: > > Where Swan (Johnson's Flathead wife) shows him how to hunt grouse? by > throwing a stone from within 8 feet? - without using a leather sling! > Can such a hunting technique be backed up from any American Indian > historical records? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 03 Jan 2000 07:00:57 -0800 On Sun, 02 January 2000, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > Where Swan (Johnson's Flathead wife) shows him how to hunt grouse? by > throwing a stone from within 8 feet? - without using a leather sling! > Can such a hunting technique be backed up from any American Indian > historical records? > According to an article a few years ago in the American Hunter (NRA) magazine, Jefferson used the leather thong with a small piece of leather tied in the center (sling) to throw rocks into heavy cover when hunting birds or deer. A few presidents later Teddy R. was doing the same thing. He told reporters he had read about this and how well it worked, seems the Europeans watching the natives is where they got it from. The article didn't say which "natives" - Africa, North America, or who know's. Several of us have used this method for twenty years after seeing Robert Stack use it on American Sportsman while hunting game birds. It works for any game we have tried it on - elk, deer, bear, birds and even buffalo. Works very nicely to move game around for a better shot also. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 03 Jan 2000 07:34:13 -0800 On Mon, 03 January 2000, Buck wrote: > > On Sun, 02 January 2000, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > > > > Where Swan (Johnson's Flathead wife) shows him how to hunt grouse? by > > throwing a stone from within 8 feet? - without using a leather sling! > > Can such a hunting technique be backed up from any American Indian > > historical records? > > > According to an article a few years ago in the American Hunter (NRA) magazine, Jefferson used the leather thong with a small piece of leather tied in the center (sling) to throw rocks into heavy cover when hunting birds or deer. > > A few presidents later Teddy R. was doing the same thing. He told reporters he had read about this and how well it worked, seems the Europeans watching the natives is where they got it from. The article didn't say which "natives" - Africa, North America, or who know's. > > Several of us have used this method for twenty years after seeing Robert Stack use it on American Sportsman while hunting game birds. It works for any game we have tried it on - elk, deer, bear, birds and even buffalo. Works very nicely to move game around for a better shot also. > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ I hit "send" my mistake and didn't get to finish what I was writing, sorry. I have never seen anything written on just throwing small stones or rocks as a method of killing, usually everything read shows the use of another item involved with the use of a rock or stone - like a sling, slingshot, a bow with a stone or blunt rock attached and so on. Hollywood has made many movies with kids and adults throwing stones at game and people - from the cavemen to the street gangs !!! Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "P. Amschler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greenhorn needs help. Date: 03 Jan 2000 09:03:07 -0800 Well, After almost a year in hidding I have a question about this question..'no pun here':) THe answer was give as to use Canvas well if one wanted to be a bit more "PC" in the Mounian Man Circles what about Osnbreg fabric? I have been told by a few AMM members that this is a very close match. --- amschlers@mailcity.com LYCOShop is now open. On your mark, get set, SHOP!!! http://shop.lycos.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 03 Jan 2000 12:07:42 -0500 (EST) I remember reading as a youth a book about the historical Grizzly Adams where one of his Native American friends or helpers struck several birds off a tree branch with a stick for the supper pot! Many ideas in this book proved to be correct such as how to render Acorns edible,so this similar incident many be correct as well! YMOS M.W http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel Date: 03 Jan 2000 11:15:29 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF55DB.D76E6BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wynn, I pack mine much like Frank, except that my tin is roughly the = size of an old aspirin can. Not very big, but the striker I use is a two = finger one so fits right in. I also carry a small bag of tinder, usually = juniper bark or uncombed flax. Sometimes both. Bill C -----Original Message----- From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, January 01, 2000 10:23 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel =20 =20 My nephew and I were discussing the merits and faults of lighting = fires with flint and steel and he posed a question as to how someone in = say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the home. Or another = way to put it is what was then the state of the art fire making method? = I told him I did not know but I have a great source for such = information! =20 =20 My next question is how do some of you carry your "fire kit"? = Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the same tin you make it = in? And how do you keep it from making a lot of noise? =20 Thank You all for sharing your knowledge and being so damned = entertaining WYnn=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF55DB.D76E6BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wynn, I pack mine much like Frank, = except that=20 my tin is roughly the size of an old aspirin can. Not very big, but the = striker=20 I use is a two finger one so fits right in. I also carry a small bag of = tinder,=20 usually juniper bark or uncombed flax. Sometimes both.
Bill = C
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Wynn & Gretchen Ormond <leona3@favorites.com>
T= o:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Saturday, January 01, 2000 10:23 AM
Subject: = MtMan-List: Flint=20 and Steel

My nephew and I were discussing the = merits and=20 faults of lighting fires with flint and steel and he posed a = question as to=20 how someone in say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the=20 home.  Or another way to put it is what was then the state of = the art=20 fire making method?  I told him I did not know but I have a = great=20 source for such information!
 
 
My next question is how do some of = you carry=20 your "fire kit"?  Specifically, do you pack your char = cloth=20 in the same tin you make it in?  And how do you keep it from = making a=20 lot of noise?
 
Thank You all for sharing your = knowledge=20 and being so damned entertaining
WYnn 
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF55DB.D76E6BC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel Date: 03 Jan 2000 11:16:48 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF55DC.068AF7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By the way, pioneers often had a little flint-pistol-like device in the = home that they used to start their char glowing with. Dixie may still = sell them. They work pretty neat. Bill C -----Original Message----- From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, January 01, 2000 10:23 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel =20 =20 My nephew and I were discussing the merits and faults of lighting = fires with flint and steel and he posed a question as to how someone in = say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the home. Or another = way to put it is what was then the state of the art fire making method? = I told him I did not know but I have a great source for such = information! =20 =20 My next question is how do some of you carry your "fire kit"? = Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the same tin you make it = in? And how do you keep it from making a lot of noise? =20 Thank You all for sharing your knowledge and being so damned = entertaining WYnn=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF55DC.068AF7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
By the way, pioneers often had a = little=20 flint-pistol-like device in the home that they used to start their char = glowing=20 with. Dixie may still sell them. They work pretty neat.
Bill = C
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Wynn & Gretchen Ormond <leona3@favorites.com>
T= o:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Saturday, January 01, 2000 10:23 AM
Subject: = MtMan-List: Flint=20 and Steel

My nephew and I were discussing the = merits and=20 faults of lighting fires with flint and steel and he posed a = question as to=20 how someone in say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the=20 home.  Or another way to put it is what was then the state of = the art=20 fire making method?  I told him I did not know but I have a = great=20 source for such information!
 
 
My next question is how do some of = you carry=20 your "fire kit"?  Specifically, do you pack your char = cloth=20 in the same tin you make it in?  And how do you keep it from = making a=20 lot of noise?
 
Thank You all for sharing your = knowledge=20 and being so damned entertaining
WYnn 
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF55DC.068AF7C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greenhorn needs help. Date: 03 Jan 2000 11:06:10 -0800 "P. Amschler" wrote: > > Well, > After almost a year in hidding I have a question about this question..'no pun here':) > THe answer was give as to use Canvas well if one wanted to be a bit more "PC" in the Mounian Man Circles what about Osnbreg fabric? P. Amshler, I presume this question deals with shirt making material? Osneberg would work just fine, be authentic and be my choice over canvas for a shirt. It is quit a bit lighter in weight than even the lightest grades of canvas and usually has some small dark thick spots of fiber that give it a homespun look. I think it would be too light weight for pants or shelters but..... Hope that's what you were looking for in way of an answer. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fabric dies Date: 03 Jan 2000 13:22:42 -0500 >yup use a dye.. rit will work, if you do not mind modern stuff.. but you >must have a mordant... that is the stuff that sets the dye so it does not >fade. Lotsa things can be a mordant, vinegar, ammonia.. and hot piss.. >yeah, animal urine works real good... commercially it comes powdered and is >called urea. Natural dyes.. depends on the color you want to achieve.. >Black in not really period.. it was not until this century that a stable >black dye was created, it faded usually to a dark green... >anne > Given the availability of vinegar, then and now, I'd rather stay away from anyone's urine but my own. What proportion of vinegar mordant-to-Rit dye solution is recommended? HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greenhorn needs help. Date: 03 Jan 2000 12:46:20 -0800 You can get onsnaberg and other period fabrics at good quality and prices from Hamilton Dry Goods. They have a web site under that name, and are owned by Ron Hamilton, generally known as "Tennessee." HE is located in, guess where, Cookeville, TN. -----Original Message----- > > >"P. Amschler" wrote: >> >> Well, >> After almost a year in hidding I have a question about this question..'no pun here':) >> THe answer was give as to use Canvas well if one wanted to be a bit more "PC" in the Mounian Man Circles what about Osnbreg fabric? > >P. Amshler, > >I presume this question deals with shirt making material? Osneberg would >work just fine, be authentic and be my choice over canvas for a shirt. >It is quit a bit lighter in weight than even the lightest grades of >canvas and usually has some small dark thick spots of fiber that give it >a homespun look. I think it would be too light weight for pants or >shelters but..... Hope that's what you were looking for in way of an >answer. I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rick_williams@byu.edu Subject: RE: MtMan-List: over-trapping Date: 03 Jan 2000 22:21:19 +0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_KJY1fp5kAP09WoBihykhqw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE When Andrew Henry took his group to the three forks area and tried to= trap in 1812, he was repeatedly attacked by blackfeet.=A0 This is where= =A0 Lewis and Clark's George Druilliard lost his life.=A0 Finally these trappers ga= ve up and most returned the Missouri to St. Louis.=A0 However Henry was met by = a party coming back up river went over the hills and established his fort on = the Snake side of the divide near the Lake and river that bears his name.= =A0 He apparently felt safe enough to built his fort on this side of the mou= ntains rather than on the other.=A0 This side would be considered more Banno= ck Shoshoni Flathead country. =A0 Further,=A0 Ogden's Snake River party that was given the charge to tr= ap out the Snake River Country to limit the American intrusion on THIS side = of the divide.=A0 The side was up for territorial debate=A0between England a= nd the US not the=A0Missouri or Louisiana Purchase side. -----Original Message----- =46rom: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wynn & Gretch= en Ormond Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 11:58 AM : JW Stephens asked: =2E If they (the Blackfeet) were buddy-buddy with the HBC how could t= he HBC get away with destroying Blackfoot fur country? B'st'rd =A0 Correct me if I am wrong but the Blackfeet country centered in what w= ould now be the Eastern Montana/Canada border.=A0 Of Course they wandered = a great bit but I do not think that they would concider the Snake River count= ry as their own.=A0 As I understand where Peter Ogden went with the Snake R= iver Brigade it was through Oregon/Idaho/Northern Utah. =A0 Even without this topographical difference I do not believe the HBC w= ould have been too worried about offending Indian allies if it got in the = way of reaching an important objective.=A0=A0=A0 They knew the Blackfeet nee= d English guns etc.=A0 The Blackfeet weren't going anywhere. =A0 Yours WYnn =A0 --Boundary_(ID_KJY1fp5kAP09WoBihykhqw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
When=20 Andrew Henry took his group to the three forks area and tried to trap= in 1812,=20 he was repeatedly attacked by blackfeet.  This is where  Le= wis and=20 Clark's George Druilliard lost his life.  Finally these trappers= gave up=20 and most returned the Missouri to St. Louis.  However Henry was = met by a=20 party coming back up river went over the hills and established his fo= rt on the=20 Snake side of the divide near the Lake and river that bears his name.=   He=20 apparently felt safe enough to built his fort on this side of the mou= ntains=20 rather than on the other.  This side would be considered more Ba= nnock=20 Shoshoni Flathead country.
 
Further,  Ogden's Snake River party t= hat was given=20 the charge to trap out the Snake River Country to limit the American = intrusion=20 on THIS side of the divide.  The side was up for territorial= =20 debate between England and the US not the Missouri or Louis= iana=20 Purchase side.
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wynn= &=20 Gretchen Ormond
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 11:58=20 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Mt= Man-List:=20 over-trapping

: JW Stephens asked:
. If they (the Blackfeet) were bud= dy-buddy with=20 the HBC how could the HBC
get away with destroying Blackfoot fur= =20 country?

B'st'rd
 
Correct me if I am wrong but the B= lackfeet=20 country centered in what would now be the Eastern Montana/Canada bo= rder. =20 Of Course they wandered a great bit but I do not think that they wo= uld=20 concider the Snake River country as their own.  As I understan= d where=20 Peter Ogden went with the Snake River Brigade it was through=20 Oregon/Idaho/Northern Utah.
 
Even without this topographical di= fference I do=20 not believe the HBC would have been too worried about offending Ind= ian allies=20 if it got in the way of reaching an important objective.  = ; =20 They knew the Blackfeet need English guns etc.  The Blackfeet = weren't=20 going anywhere.
 
Yours
WYnn
 
--Boundary_(ID_KJY1fp5kAP09WoBihykhqw)-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Deschamps Sisters Date: 03 Jan 2000 18:25:17 EST Laura, Yes, Mr. Ferris had a way with words. Far more eloqunet than all the purposed "Trapper Talk" one hears from reenactors. Say, did you ever get any info on the Deschamps sisters? If not, there is an interesting story about a fued between the Deschamps and the Rems at Fort Union in Charles Larpenteur's "Forty Years a Fur Trader..." I don't have the page number (I'm at work) but if you need it, let me know and I'll get it to you. Jim Hardee ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry derringer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 03 Jan 2000 19:28:35 -0500 > > > Where Swan (Johnson's Flathead wife) shows him how to hunt grouse? by > > > throwing a stone from within 8 feet? - without using a leather sling! > > > Can such a hunting technique be backed up from any American Indian > > > historical records? Howdy! Been a lurker for a while but this one caught my attention.............no big deal!! Back in my younger days (in the eastern states) I used to go squirrel huntin with a pocket full o rocks & make my limit. Had to throw with my left hand tho,....tore'm up pretty bad with my right hand................ JD ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 03 Jan 2000 17:16:01 -0800 I don't know about historical documentation. But two years ago my foster son took a grouse with a rock about the size of a baseball and at about 12 feet. the grouse was along side a dirt road. He is a pretty big kid.(and at times pretty damn lucky) And in the same year I took one with a club about a foot long thrown in tomahawk style. The Grouse was sitting on a branch in a tree. 3strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 03 Jan 2000 17:16:01 -0800 I don't know about historical documentation. But two years ago my foster son took a grouse with a rock about the size of a baseball and at about 12 feet. the grouse was along side a dirt road. He is a pretty big kid.(and at times pretty damn lucky) And in the same year I took one with a club about a foot long thrown in tomahawk style. The Grouse was sitting on a branch in a tree. 3strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Trappers Date: 03 Jan 2000 23:51:54 EST We were talking last month about the character and "grit" that were part of a trapper's personality. In my research lately I found a couple of references I really enjoyed. The first, a reference to Jed Smith out of DeVoto's "Across the Wide Missouri." " . . . his (Smith's) prejudices were so strong that he could not be reasonable with himself." The second regarding Hugh Glass from "Pirate, Pawnee and Mountain Man: The Sage of Hugh Glass," by John Meyers Myers. "He had his failings. But his fellow trappers bear testimony to his honor, integrity and fidelity. He could be relied on -- and no man would fly more swiftly, nor contribute more freely to the relief of a suffering fellow man than he. Sunk amidst depravity, Hugh had surfaced undepraved. Living as a savage, he had become no part of one. . . . Bold, daring, reckless and eccentric to a high degree; but was nevertheless a man of great talents and intellectual as well as bodily power. But his bravery was conspicuous beyond all other qualities for the perilous life he lived." Quite an epitaph! Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "P. Amschler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greenhorn needs help. Date: 03 Jan 2000 21:01:52 -0800 Great answer and a positive one that I can use. Thanks --- amschlers@mailcity.com LYCOShop is now open. On your mark, get set, SHOP!!! http://shop.lycos.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 04 Jan 2000 09:02:07 -0700 I have many times used a stick to kill blue grouse. Not alot of throwing rocks in the woods but lots of good sticks. Blue grouse are pretty stupid and I don't carry a 22 when elk hunting. besides like to be a little quiet if elk are around. Joe Check out our new web site at http://www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ We have great home tanning kits based on 20 years experience New leather wildlife coasters and placemats at wholesale prices ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? Date: 04 Jan 2000 18:09:20 -0800 As I was sewing up a pair of moosehide mocs, I started thinking. [ Yes Dennis, I know that is strange. ] I don't ever recall reading where the mountain men killed and ate a moose. Have any of you found such documentation ? Were moose not in the Rocky Mountains at that time ? Were they not considered fittin vitals ? So many questions. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? Date: 04 Jan 2000 18:14:41 -0700 Being a guide in Yellowstone I get very interested in wildlife populations both historically and presently. Below is a portion of the report EFFECTS OF WINTER RECREATION ON WILDLIFE OF THE GREATER YELLOWSTONE AREA: A LITERATURE REVIEW AND ASSESSMENT, Greater Yellowstone Winter Wildlife Working Group, October 1999, Pages 73 - 74, which addresses your question of were moose in the Rockies, or in this case the Greater Yellowstone Area (GYA), historically. Kurt POPULATION STATUS AND TREND Moose may have been rare in western North America during historic as well as pre-Columbian times (Peterson 1955, Kelsall and Telfer 1974, Kay 1997). However, since about 1900 moose appear to have extended their range and/or become more numerous (Kelsall and Telfer 1974, Kay 1997). Estimating moose population size has proven to be a consistent problem in many areas (Timmermann 1974, 1993; Gasaway et al. 1986), and a lack of accurate estimates has hampered good management (Gasaway et al. 1986). Some attempts to determine moose population status and trend in the Greater Yellowstone Area (GYA) have been equally problematic (Tyers unpublished data, Gasaway 1997), and a good count for this region has not been achieved. Although demographic data are not available at a large landscape level, it is known that moose are uncommon compared to other ungulates in the GYA. In addition, populations are often at low density. In these circumstances, a conservative approach to moose population management is advised (Tyers unpublished data, Gasaway 1997, Karns 1997). Some information on moose populations in the GYA is available. Houston (1982) reported that moose remains have not been found in archeological sites in northwest Wyoming or south central Montana. He concluded that moose had not yet occupied northwest Wyo-ming in 1830 (Houston 1968), but had colo-nized the Yellowstone area by the 1870s; they appeared on Yellowstones northern range around 1913 (Houston 1982). Schullery and Whittlesey (1992) reviewed the documentary record for wolves and related wildlife species in the Yellowstone National Park area prior to 1882. Based on historic accounts, they con-cluded that moose were common in the south-ern part of the park in 1882, and rare sightings were made near or on the northern range about the same time. Recent studies indicate a population de-cline following the 1988 Yellowstone fires in areas where fire effects were severe and in areas where moose rely on older lodgepole pine forests for winter range (Tyers unpub-lished data, Tyers and Irby 1995). In response to these data, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks has significantly reduced hunting quotas in districts north of Yellowstone National Park (T. Lemke, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, personal communication). In portions of the GYA where moose have different winter-use patterns or where fire effects are not an issue, the trend may be different. Several hypotheses have been proposed to explain the biogeography of moose in western North America. Kelsall and Telfer (1974) presented five hypotheses to explain the rela-tively recent expansion of moose. These include: (1) moose have had a limited amount of time to colonize North America since the last glaciation; (2) climatic variationthe Little Ice Age and associated severe winter weather limited moose populations around 1700?1800; (3) disease once limited moose numbers; (4) European settlement modified the original climax forests, which were poor moose habitat, and created seral vegetation types that moose prefer; and (5) predators once limited moose, but the near extermination of native carnivores allowed moose to extend their range and expand their populations. Kay (1997) proposed a sixth hypothesis: moose were extremely vulnerable to predation by Native Americans who had no effective conservation practices. The result was a control of moose biogeography by native hunting. Loope and Gruell (1973) proposed a seventh hypothesis specific to the GYA: a very low moose population during the 19 th century was the result of fires, which maintained early successional vegetation. They speculated that moose populations have increased in this century in northwest Wyoming as forests have matured under a management policy of fire suppression. A primary factor in this, they believe, is an increase in subalpine fir, a shade-tolerant species found in older forests. They further hypothesized that subalpine fir is the staple food item in the diets of moose in the area. Tyers (unpublished data) tested this hypothesis and demonstrated that moose along the northern border of Yellowstone National Park feed primarily on subalpine fir saplings in older lodgepole forests. Although the Shiras moose is a relatively recent arrival to the GYA, available habitat is now occupied. However, future population trends are uncertain. Habitat conditions, human influences, and exposure to predation vary considerably across the GYA. In addition, the small home range size of moose and the strong fidelity moose show to a geographic area tend to create many fairly discrete popula-tions. For these reasons, it is likely that local populations will display very different trends. As evidenced by the hypotheses for recent moose range expansion explained above, future trends in the GYA will be largely determined by predation and habitat quality. Humans, bears, and wolves prey upon moose in the GYA. The recent reintroduction of wolves is an important variable with unknown consequences. Some have speculated that wolves will play a major role in regulating moose populations, and a decrease in moose numbers will be noticed (Messier et al. 1995). The 1988 Yellowstone fires were a landscape-level disturbance that affected the successional stage of vegetation. This will undoubtedly be a determining factor for moose populations in a large spatial and temporal context. In many parts of the GYA, a return to an early succes-sional stage represents a decrease in moose winter habitat that will reduce carrying capac-ity (Tyers unpublished data). Riparian areas with deciduous vegetation are important foraging areas for moose. They are limited in size and distribution and are particularly vulnerable to human impacts. Management of these areas will also play a role in determining moose population trends. larry pendleton wrote: > As I was sewing up a pair of moosehide mocs, I started thinking. [ Yes > Dennis, I know that is strange. ] I don't ever recall reading where the > mountain men killed and ate a moose. Have any of you found such > documentation ? Were moose not in the Rocky Mountains at that time ? Were > they not considered fittin vitals ? So many questions. > Pendleton > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? Date: 04 Jan 2000 19:41:02 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF56EB.A24509C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the info, Kurt. That pretty much explains it. Pendleton=20 -----Original Message----- From: Kurt Westenbarger To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 5:14 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? =20 =20 Being a guide in Yellowstone I get very interested in wildlife = populations both historically and presently. Below is a portion of the report = EFFECTS OF WINTER RECREATION ON WILDLIFE OF THE GREATER YELLOWSTONE AREA: A = LITERATURE REVIEW AND ASSESSMENT, Greater Yellowstone Winter Wildlife Working = Group, October 1999, Pages 73 - 74, which addresses your question of were = moose in the Rockies, or in this case the Greater Yellowstone Area (GYA), = historically. =20 Kurt =20 POPULATION STATUS AND TREND Moose may have been rare in western North America during historic as well as pre-Columbian times (Peterson 1955, Kelsall and Telfer 1974, Kay 1997). However, since about 1900 moose appear to have extended their range and/or become more numerous (Kelsall and Telfer 1974, Kay 1997). Estimating moose population size has proven to be a consistent problem in many areas (Timmermann 1974, 1993; Gasaway et al. 1986), and a lack of accurate estimates has hampered good management (Gasaway et al. 1986). Some attempts to determine moose population status and trend in the Greater Yellowstone Area (GYA) have been equally problematic (Tyers unpublished data, Gasaway 1997), and a good count for this region has not been achieved. Although demographic data are not available at a large landscape level, it is known that moose are uncommon compared to other ungulates in the GYA. In addition, populations are often at low density. In these circumstances, a conservative approach to moose population management is advised (Tyers unpublished data, Gasaway 1997, Karns 1997). Some information on moose populations in the GYA is available. Houston (1982) reported that moose remains have not been found in archeological sites in northwest Wyoming or south central Montana. He concluded that moose had not yet occupied northwest Wyo-ming in 1830 (Houston 1968), but had colo-nized the Yellowstone area by the 1870s; they appeared on Yellowstone=12s northern range around 1913 (Houston 1982). Schullery and Whittlesey (1992) reviewed the documentary record for wolves and related wildlife species in the Yellowstone National Park area prior to 1882. Based on historic accounts, they con-cluded that moose were common in the south-ern part of the park in 1882, and rare sightings were made near or on the northern range about the same time. Recent studies indicate a population de-cline following the 1988 Yellowstone fires in areas where fire effects were severe and in areas where moose rely on older lodgepole pine forests for winter range (Tyers unpub-lished data, Tyers and Irby 1995). In response to these data, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks has significantly reduced hunting quotas in districts north of Yellowstone National Park (T. Lemke, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, personal communication). In portions of the GYA where moose have different winter-use patterns or where fire effects are not an issue, the trend may be different. Several hypotheses have been proposed to explain the biogeography of moose in western North America. Kelsall and Telfer (1974) presented five hypotheses to explain the rela-tively recent expansion of moose. These include: (1) moose have had a limited amount of time to colonize North America since the last glaciation; (2) climatic variation=17the Little Ice Age and associated severe winter weather limited moose populations around 1700?1800; (3) disease once = limited moose numbers; (4) European settlement modified the original climax forests, which were poor moose habitat, and created seral vegetation types that moose prefer; and (5) predators once limited moose, but the near extermination of native carnivores allowed moose to extend their range and expand their populations. Kay (1997) proposed a sixth hypothesis: moose were extremely vulnerable to predation by Native Americans who had no effective conservation practices. The result was a control of moose biogeography by native hunting. Loope and Gruell (1973) proposed a seventh hypothesis specific to the GYA: a very low moose population during the 19 th century was the result of fires, which maintained early successional vegetation. They speculated that moose populations have increased in this century in northwest Wyoming as forests have matured under a management policy of fire suppression. A primary factor in this, they believe, is an increase in subalpine fir, a shade-tolerant species found in older forests. They further hypothesized that subalpine fir is the staple food item in the diets of moose in the area. Tyers (unpublished data) tested this hypothesis and demonstrated that moose along the northern border of Yellowstone National Park feed primarily on subalpine fir saplings in older lodgepole forests. Although the Shiras moose is a relatively recent arrival to the GYA, available habitat is now occupied. However, future population trends are uncertain. Habitat conditions, human influences, and exposure to predation vary considerably across the GYA. In addition, the small home range size of moose and the strong fidelity moose show to a geographic area tend to create many fairly discrete popula-tions. For these reasons, it is likely that local populations will display very different trends. As evidenced by the hypotheses for recent moose range expansion explained above, future trends in the GYA will be largely determined by predation and habitat quality. Humans, bears, and wolves prey upon moose in the GYA. The recent reintroduction of wolves is an important variable with unknown consequences. Some have speculated that wolves will play a major role in regulating moose populations, and a decrease in moose numbers will be noticed (Messier et al. 1995). The 1988 Yellowstone fires were a landscape-level disturbance that affected the successional stage of vegetation. This will undoubtedly be a determining factor for moose populations in a large spatial and temporal context. In many parts of the GYA, a return to an early succes-sional stage represents a decrease in moose winter habitat that will reduce carrying capac-ity (Tyers unpublished data). Riparian areas with deciduous vegetation are important foraging areas for moose. They are limited in size and distribution and are particularly vulnerable to human impacts. Management of these areas will also play a role in determining moose population trends. =20 larry pendleton wrote: =20 > As I was sewing up a pair of moosehide mocs, I started thinking. = [ Yes > Dennis, I know that is strange. ] I don't ever recall reading = where the > mountain men killed and ate a moose. Have any of you found such > documentation ? Were moose not in the Rocky Mountains at that = time ? Were > they not considered fittin vitals ? So many questions. > Pendleton > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html =20 =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF56EB.A24509C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the info, Kurt.  = That pretty=20 much explains it.
Pendleton 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Kurt Westenbarger <kwesten@wyellowstone.com>=
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, January 04, 2000 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 MOOSE ?

Being a guide in Yellowstone I get very=20 interested in wildlife populations
both historically and = presently. =20 Below is a portion of the report EFFECTS OF
WINTER RECREATION ON = WILDLIFE=20 OF THE GREATER YELLOWSTONE AREA: A LITERATURE
REVIEW AND = ASSESSMENT,=20 Greater Yellowstone Winter Wildlife Working Group,
October 1999, = Pages 73=20 - 74, which addresses your question of were moose in
the Rockies, = or in=20 this case the Greater Yellowstone Area (GYA),=20 historically.

Kurt

POPULATION STATUS AND = TREND
Moose may=20 have been rare in western
North America during historic as well = as=20 pre-Columbian
times (Peterson 1955, Kelsall and
Telfer 1974, = Kay=20 1997). However, since about
1900 moose appear to have extended=20 their
range and/or become more numerous (Kelsall
and Telfer = 1974, Kay=20 1997).
Estimating moose population size has
proven to be a = consistent=20 problem in many
areas (Timmermann 1974, 1993; Gasaway
et al. = 1986),=20 and a lack of accurate estimates
has hampered good management=20 (Gasaway
et al. 1986). Some attempts to determine
moose = population=20 status and trend in the
Greater Yellowstone Area (GYA) have=20 been
equally problematic (Tyers unpublished data,
Gasaway = 1997), and a=20 good count for this
region has not been achieved. = Although
demographic=20 data are not available at a large
landscape level, it is known = that moose=20 are
uncommon compared to other ungulates in the
GYA. In = addition,=20 populations are often at low
density. In these circumstances, a=20 conservative
approach to moose population management = is
advised (Tyers=20 unpublished data, Gasaway
1997, Karns 1997).
Some information = on moose=20 populations in
the GYA is available. Houston (1982) = reported
that=20 moose remains have not been found in
archeological sites in = northwest=20 Wyoming or
south central Montana. He concluded that
moose had = not yet=20 occupied northwest Wyo-ming
in 1830 (Houston 1968), but had=20 colo-nized
the Yellowstone area by the 1870s; they
appeared on = Yellowstone=12s northern range
around 1913 (Houston 1982). = Schullery=20 and
Whittlesey (1992) reviewed the documentary
record for = wolves and=20 related wildlife species
in the Yellowstone National Park area = prior=20 to
1882. Based on historic accounts, they con-cluded
that = moose were=20 common in the south-ern
part of the park in 1882, and rare=20 sightings
were made near or on the northern range about
the = same=20 time.
Recent studies indicate a population de-cline
following = the 1988=20 Yellowstone fires in
areas where fire effects were severe and = in
areas=20 where moose rely on older lodgepole
pine forests for winter range = (Tyers=20 unpub-lished
data, Tyers and Irby 1995). In response
to these = data,=20 Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks
has significantly reduced = hunting quotas=20 in
districts north of Yellowstone National Park (T.
Lemke, = Montana=20 Fish, Wildlife and Parks,
personal communication). In portions of = the
GYA where moose have different winter-use
patterns or = where fire=20 effects are not an issue,
the trend may be different.
Several=20 hypotheses have been proposed to
explain the biogeography of = moose in=20 western
North America. Kelsall and Telfer (1974)
presented = five=20 hypotheses to explain the rela-tively
recent expansion of moose.=20 These
include: (1) moose have had a limited amount
of time to = colonize=20 North America since the
last glaciation; (2) climatic=20 variation=17the
Little Ice Age and associated severe = winter
weather=20 limited moose populations around 1700?1800; (3) disease once=20 limited
moose
numbers; (4) European settlement modified=20 the
original climax forests, which were poor
moose habitat, = and=20 created seral vegetation
types that moose prefer; and (5) = predators=20 once
limited moose, but the near extermination of
native = carnivores=20 allowed moose to extend
their range and expand their = populations.
Kay=20 (1997) proposed a sixth hypothesis:
moose were extremely = vulnerable to=20 predation
by Native Americans who had no = effective
conservation=20 practices. The result was a
control of moose biogeography by=20 native
hunting.
Loope and Gruell (1973) proposed a
seventh=20 hypothesis specific to the GYA: a very
low moose population = during the 19=20 th century
was the result of fires, which maintained=20 early
successional vegetation. They speculated that
moose = populations=20 have increased in this
century in northwest Wyoming as forests=20 have
matured under a management policy of fire
suppression. A = primary=20 factor in this, they
believe, is an increase in subalpine fir, a=20 shade-tolerant
species found in older forests. They
further=20 hypothesized that subalpine fir is the
staple food item in the = diets of=20 moose in the
area. Tyers (unpublished data) tested = this
hypothesis and=20 demonstrated that moose along
the northern border of Yellowstone=20 National
Park feed primarily on subalpine fir saplings = in
older=20 lodgepole forests.
Although the Shiras moose is a = relatively
recent=20 arrival to the GYA, available habitat is
now occupied. However, = future=20 population
trends are uncertain. Habitat conditions,
human = influences,=20 and exposure to predation
vary considerably across the GYA. In=20 addition,
the small home range size of moose and the
strong = fidelity=20 moose show to a geographic
area tend to create many fairly = discrete=20 popula-tions.
For these reasons, it is likely that = local
populations=20 will display very different trends.
As evidenced by the = hypotheses for=20 recent
moose range expansion explained above, future
trends in = the GYA=20 will be largely determined
by predation and habitat quality.=20 Humans,
bears, and wolves prey upon moose in the
GYA. The = recent=20 reintroduction of wolves is
an important variable with unknown=20 consequences.
Some have speculated that wolves
will play a = major role=20 in regulating moose
populations, and a decrease in moose = numbers
will=20 be noticed (Messier et al. 1995). The 1988
Yellowstone fires were = a=20 landscape-level
disturbance that affected the successional = stage
of=20 vegetation. This will undoubtedly be a
determining factor for = moose=20 populations in a
large spatial and temporal context. In = many
parts of=20 the GYA, a return to an early succes-sional
stage represents a = decrease=20 in moose
winter habitat that will reduce carrying = capac-ity
(Tyers=20 unpublished data). Riparian areas
with deciduous vegetation are=20 important
foraging areas for moose. They are limited in
size = and=20 distribution and are particularly
vulnerable to human impacts. = Management=20 of
these areas will also play a role in determining
moose = population=20 trends.

larry pendleton wrote:

> As I was sewing up = a pair=20 of moosehide mocs, I started thinking.  [ Yes
> Dennis, I = know=20 that is strange. ]  I don't ever recall reading where = the
>=20 mountain men killed and ate a moose.  Have any of you found=20 such
> documentation ?  Were moose not in the Rocky = Mountains at=20 that time ?  Were
> they not considered fittin vitals = ?  So=20 many questions.
> Pendleton
>
>=20 ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


--------------------= --
hist_text=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF56EB.A24509C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 04 Jan 2000 22:08:29 -0500 Pendleton, You'll like 'em....I have 2 pair of Moose Mocs (brained, deeply smoked) that have lasted me near 5 yrs.. acourse, as some Brothers will attest, I seldome wear 'em... Hell, only Wimmin, the infirm and wee bairn wear foot coverin's when the ground isn;t covered wi' at least 6" of snow... D larry pendleton wrote: > As I was sewing up a pair of moosehide mocs, I started thinking. [ Yes > Dennis, I know that is strange. ] I don't ever recall reading where the > mountain men killed and ate a moose. Have any of you found such > documentation ? Were moose not in the Rocky Mountains at that time ? Were > they not considered fittin vitals ? So many questions. > Pendleton > > -------------------- > Aux Ailments de Pays! -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BarneyPFife@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 04 Jan 2000 22:20:21 EST On a recent SE Alaska trip, from Anchorage to Vancouver, I asked about Moose everywhere, wantin' to see 'em, and was told they didn't inhabit the southern part of the state cuz it was too warm, and that I needed to go north of Fairbanks iff'n I wanted to see any. That would lead me to believe they weren't in the lower 48 (Rockies) neither. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 04 Jan 2000 19:31:40 -0800 I had one in camp above North Park in the Rockies late September. Curious contraption, those Mooses. Reminded me of a 4-WD truck with it's high center. Haven't seen mention of them in the early shining mtns. in literature that I can recall, though. Seems like Capt. Lewis' bio records would be a good primary source, though. That one is not at hand for me, though. Anyone? B'st'rd BarneyPFife@aol.com wrote: > > On a recent SE Alaska trip, from Anchorage to Vancouver, I asked about Moose > everywhere, wantin' to see 'em, and was told they didn't inhabit the southern > part of the state cuz it was too warm, and that I needed to go north of > Fairbanks iff'n I wanted to see any. That would lead me to believe they > weren't in the lower 48 (Rockies) neither. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 04 Jan 2000 19:48:29 -0800 Here's a reply that I received. Bobbie wrote: > > For some reason, my post to the list doesn't go through, so I'm going to > reply to you personally. > > >I had one in camp above North Park in the Rockies late September. > > The North Park meese were "imported" by the Colorado Division of > Wildlife. If I remember correctly, they were brought in from the > Yellowstone area. There is much debate that the moose were actually not > native to this area, and only periodically wandered in. > > HTH, > > Bobbie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 04 Jan 2000 20:50:14 -0800 Here's some more from Bobbie. Thanks! Bobbie wrote: > > Thanks for posting my reply. > > Akin to that bit of info, and I hope not too much off-topic, the elk were > completely hunted out of the area that is now Rocky Mountain National Park, > by the turn of the century. There were two "shipments" of elk brought in > from the Yellowstone area, I believe in 1913 and 1914 to repopulate the park. > > About the beaver: my understanding is that they came so close to dying out > that they actually changed their behavior patterns in order to survive. > They were originally diurnal, and became nocturnal. > > Bobbie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 05 Jan 2000 01:16:27 -0400 >On a recent SE Alaska trip, from Anchorage to Vancouver, I asked about Moose >everywhere, wantin' to see 'em, and was told they didn't inhabit the southern >part of the state cuz it was too warm, and that I needed to go north of >Fairbanks iff'n I wanted to see any. That would lead me to believe they >weren't in the lower 48 (Rockies) neither. Barn The National Moose Range is on the Kenai peninsula, and I've seen a lot of them there. Maybe they meant the southeastern part of the state? Bob Bob Spencer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Moose Date: 05 Jan 2000 01:09:49 -0500 The posting from Kurt on the moose was right on target and jibes with the information I've dug out of several biogeography sources. Neither Lewis nor Clark mention, in their journals, having seen a moose. However, on Monday, June 2, 1806, Lewis noted that "the Indians [Chopunnish] inform us that there are a plenty of Moos to the S.E. of them on the East branch of Lewis's river [the Salmon River in Idaho]." This is the only journal reference to this animal but it provides strong evidence that the moose was present in the Montana-Idaho border area in the early 19th century. My paternal grandfather was supervisor of the Shoshone National Forest beginning in 1911 and told me that there were plenty of moose in the northern portion of the forest (the Shoshone River and Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone drainages) when he was with the Forest Service. He also told me that they were relatively recent migrants into the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem (he didn't call it that, but that's what he meant) and that several early ranchers on the North Fork of the Shoshone River reported seeing their first moose in the 1890s. My father-in-law worked for a timber company in the southern part of the Shoshone Forest (the Wind River drainage) in the mid-1930s and I remember him talking about a friend of his who was the first to kill a moose on the Wind River in 1936. To this day, moose do not range naturally range farther south than the southern end of the Wind Rivers. If you know this country, you'll know why. It's hard to imagine a moose crossing the Wyoming Basin to get to what would be good moose range in the Medicine Bow or Sierra Madre mountains. I've always been intrigued that the subspecies of this great deer that we call the "Wyoming" or "Shiras" moose apparently didn't make it to Wyoming until my grandpa was a young man. Our summer home in northwestern Wyoming is in excellent moose range and we rarely go more than a week without seeing two or three of these animals and the evidence they leave of their presence is abundant. John ******************************************************************** Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 johnlallen@uconn.cted.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 05 Jan 2000 08:45:50 -0500 (EST) I used to live in Anchorage and the Moose used to walk down the streets!(don't know bout the rest of the area) Humbly, M.W. http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 05 Jan 2000 08:15:36 -0800 I spent considerable time in Alaska in the late 50s, early 60s. There were moose all over - especially around Anchorage. When I was back for a visit in the late 80s they were still there. It is also my belief that in New England moose were common in the colonial days. Bill C -----Original Message----- >On a recent SE Alaska trip, from Anchorage to Vancouver, I asked about Moose >everywhere, wantin' to see 'em, and was told they didn't inhabit the southern >part of the state cuz it was too warm, and that I needed to go north of >Fairbanks iff'n I wanted to see any. That would lead me to believe they >weren't in the lower 48 (Rockies) neither. Barn > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 05 Jan 2000 13:17:22 -0600 Some good reading on the subject can be had in the book: "The Moose Book" by Samuel Merrill published by E.R. Dutton and Company 1916 The book also contains artwork by Rungius. Very nice. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 05 Jan 2000 14:05:03 -0800 Since I usually buy any book I take an interest in, I went searching for this book - found it on Alibris. What a deal! It must be good, since the only copy I could find runs out at $240.00! I guess I shall have to check the library in town. I am humbled. Bill C -----Original Message----- >Some good reading on the subject can be had in the book: > >"The Moose Book" by Samuel Merrill published by E.R. Dutton and Company 1916 > >The book also contains artwork by Rungius. Very nice. > >northwoods > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blackfoot territory (was over-trapping) Date: 05 Jan 2000 15:59:10 -0700 "Lee S. Newbill" wrote: >>From what I've read about the NWC and the HBC, they trapped a lot of area, but not generally in Blackfoot territory.<< Before 1821, the NWC & HBC didn't do a lot of trapping directly. Primarily they traded with the Natives for furs. When they did bring in Iroquouis trappers, it was with the consent of the Natives in the area that the Iroquois were going to trap. When these Iroquois wandered too far afield, they got into _really_ big trouble. >>I believe David Thompson, NWC, had to find another pass after ticking off the Blackfeet.<< Yes, that's right. The last trader to cross over the pass that Thompson had used to cross over to Kootenay House was the HBC's Joseph Howse. He was allowed to cross over by the Peigan only on condition that he never do it again. He was warned that if he returned, he would be turned into dried meat. So in 1810, Thompson headed north to the Athabasca Pass (in Jasper National Park), which he knew about through the Iroquois trappers. As far as I know, prior to 1821, the HBC & NWC _never_ sent anyone into Blackfoot territory to trap. They knew that would be a death sentence. They often bemoaned all the beaver going to waste in Blackfoot territory, but they weren't about to take the risk of going after it. Also, HBC & NWC posts were always on the north side of the North Saskatchewan River, because that was the boundary between the Cree and the Blackfoot. The first fur post in Canadian Blackfoot territory was Bow Fort (aka Peigan Post), which was established about 1837 (if I remember right!) on the express invitation of the Blackfoot. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? Date: 05 Jan 2000 16:18:41 -0700 "Kurt Westenbarger" wrote: >> Below is a portion of the report EFFECTS OF WINTER RECREATION ON WILDLIFE OF THE GREATER YELLOWSTONE AREA Moose may have been rare in western North America during historic as well as pre-Columbian times (Peterson 1955, Kelsall and Telfer 1974, Kay 1997).<< This really floored me! Moose might have been rare in the western U.S., but here in Western Canada, moose hide has been preferred for moccasins for at least 200 years, and moose meat filled many fur traders' kettles. Perhaps the researchers were confused because in the Canadian fur trade, moose were often called by their French name, "orignal". But both David Thompson and Daniel Williams Harmon, to name just two, included detailed information on "moose deer" in their memoirs. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 05 Jan 2000 17:54:36 -0700 Barney, I always seem to run into moose in wyoming. Around Ten Sleep- while going to the western national seen 8 (three which came into camp at dark and bull tried to get our horses into his harem, but our ever brave riding mule, she is about 15 hands high, tried to scare him off. Thought we were in trouble on that one!); the last AMM camp Jim Sebastian and I kicked up a cow and calf in the willows just down stream from main camp. Here in Colorado, only found foot prints, but they always seem to kill a few during elk season. mike. BarneyPFife@aol.com wrote: > On a recent SE Alaska trip, from Anchorage to Vancouver, I asked about Moose > everywhere, wantin' to see 'em, and was told they didn't inhabit the southern > part of the state cuz it was too warm, and that I needed to go north of > Fairbanks iff'n I wanted to see any. That would lead me to believe they > weren't in the lower 48 (Rockies) neither. Barn > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 06 Jan 2000 01:04:49 GMT > > Where Swan (Johnson's Flathead wife) shows him how to hunt grouse? by > > throwing a stone from within 8 feet? - without using a leather sling! > > Can such a hunting technique be backed up from any American Indian > > historical records? > > I did this very thing to a rabbit about thirty years ago. Plain blind luck!! However, the throwing stick has been used to take small game by a number of native peoples, as well as those folks not well off enough, or otherwise not able to own a gun. In my limited experience with throwing sticks, it is not only possible, but practical to take small game with this weapon, with lots of practice, when you don't want to make noise or expend your ammunition. J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dammiller@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 05 Jan 2000 20:14:22 -0600 Barny, I have had the great fortune of seeing them here in Utah on many occasions. Have pictures of a fine young bull not more than 20 feet away (on the other side of a parked car) at the top of Alpine loop above American Fork Utah. Others I have seen in Box Elder County and in Cache County. Both counties are in northern Utah. Have seen them in southern Idaho while on hunting trips with family. So I guess they must be different ones that were talked about in Alaska. Dave On Wed, 05 Jan 2000 17:54:36 -0700 Mike Moore writes: >Barney, > I always seem to run into moose in wyoming. Around Ten Sleep- >while going to >the western national seen 8 (three which came into camp at dark and >bull tried to >get our horses into his harem, but our ever brave riding mule, she is >about 15 >hands high, tried to scare him off. Thought we were in trouble on that >one!); the >last AMM camp Jim Sebastian and I kicked up a cow and calf in the >willows just >down stream from main camp., > Here in Colorado, only found foot prints, but they always seem to >kill a few >during elk season. > mike. > >BarneyPFife@aol.com wrote: > >> On a recent SE Alaska trip, from Anchorage to Vancouver, I asked >about Moose >> everywhere, wantin' to see 'em, and was told they didn't inhabit the >southern >> part of the state cuz it was too warm, and that I needed to go north >of >> Fairbanks iff'n I wanted to see any. That would lead me to believe >they >> weren't in the lower 48 (Rockies) neither. Barn >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? Date: 06 Jan 2000 03:40:25 EST Larry, No one has answered your question so I'll take a stab. 1. In late October - early November, 1824, Alexander Ross and company crossed the continental divide via Lemhi Pass. (Interestingly, this pass essentially crosses the Bitterroots from Montana into Idaho. Lewis and Clark crossed it on Aug. 12, 1805. Their journal indicates the pass is about 3 - 4 days travel from the Dillon, MT area.) After spending much time and ammunition shooting at geese and ducks, Ross reports, "We were at the same time surrounded on all sides by herds of buffalo, deer, moose and elk, as well as grouse, pheasant, and rabbit." Ross, Alexander. The Fur Hunters of the Far West. University of Oklahoma Press, Norman. 1956. pg. 291. 2. On Sept. 5, 1832, Warren Angus Ferris passed 25 miles down the Big Hole Valley. He says, "...our hunters killed three grizly(sic) bears, several goats, deer, and two buffaloes; the latter, however, is seldom found in this country; though it abounds in black and white tailed deer, elk, sheep, antelopes, and sometimes moose, and White mountain goats have been killed here." Ferris, Warren Angus. Life in the Rocky Mountains. Northland Press, Flagstaff, AZ. 1983. pg 233. So without further adieu, there appears to have been moose in the Rocky Mountain trapping grounds of the mountain men. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Date: 06 Jan 2000 05:28:48 -0800 On Wed, 05 January 2000, dammiller@juno.com wrote: > > Barny, > > I have had the great fortune of seeing them here in Utah on many > occasions. Have pictures of a fine young bull not more than 20 feet away > (on the other side of a parked car) at the top of Alpine loop above > American Fork Utah. Others I have seen in Box Elder County and in Cache > County. Both counties are in northern Utah. Have seen them in southern > Idaho while on hunting trips with family. > > So I guess they must be different ones that were talked about in Alaska. > > Dave > > On Wed, 05 Jan 2000 17:54:36 -0700 Mike Moore > writes: > >Barney, > > I always seem to run into moose in wyoming. Around Ten Sleep- > >while going to > >the western national seen 8 (three which came into camp at dark and > >bull tried to > >get our horses into his harem, but our ever brave riding mule, she is > >about 15 > >hands high, tried to scare him off. Thought we were in trouble on that > >one!); the > >last AMM camp Jim Sebastian and I kicked up a cow and calf in the > >willows just > >down stream from main camp., > > Here in Colorado, only found foot prints, but they always seem to > >kill a few > >during elk season. > > mike. Mike, That camp at Lost Park is a real good spot to see moose, it's a drop off point for the newcomers when brought in from Wyo. Kermit and myself have seen at least two dozen in just 3-4 trips up there. Lots of young babies and mom's. Later, Buck Conner \\\|/// -@-@- ---oo00---(_)---00oo--- _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html _________________________________ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? Date: 06 Jan 2000 07:37:02 -0700 Interesting Angela - I've forwarded your response to a freind of mine who is one of the research sources mentioned in the report. Snail mail because I don't have his email. Anyway, if and when I get a reponse I'll post it here. For others who responded with moose tales - I've backpacked in Yellowstone every year since '72 and never had a bear problem. Been chased twice by moose though. Both were cows, only one had a calf, and both came from over 50 yards away to chase me around a tree. Nasty critters moose. Local woman about four years ago was knocked down and stomped by a young bull breaking several ribs and puncturing a lung. Ask local naturalists what the most dangerous animal is in the GYA and I bet 60% will say moose because they give little indication that they're bugged before taking action. The other 40%? People driving machines of any type because they're looking for moose (etc) instead of at where they're going. Kurt Angela Gottfred wrote: > "Kurt Westenbarger" wrote: > > >> Below is a portion of the report EFFECTS OF > WINTER RECREATION ON WILDLIFE OF THE GREATER YELLOWSTONE AREA > Moose may have been rare in western > North America during historic as well as pre-Columbian > times (Peterson 1955, Kelsall and > Telfer 1974, Kay 1997).<< > > This really floored me! Moose might have been rare in the western U.S., but > here in Western Canada, moose hide has been preferred for moccasins for at > least 200 years, and moose meat filled many fur traders' kettles. Perhaps > the researchers were confused because in the Canadian fur trade, moose were > often called by their French name, "orignal". But both David Thompson and > Daniel Williams Harmon, to name just two, included detailed information on > "moose deer" in their memoirs. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? Date: 06 Jan 2000 10:10:57 -0500 (EST) The year before I moved to Achorage a collage Professer was stomped to death by a Moose w/ a calf on a trail just out side of downtown on which I was very fond of hiking. When I first got there (Alaska) and asked about Bears every one said dont worry about the bears worry bout the Moose!!! YMOS M. http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? Date: 06 Jan 2000 20:24:03 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF5883.F93C4560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Jim, Hell I just finished reading LIFE IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS, and I missed = the note about the moose. Thanks again ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: Casapy123@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, January 06, 2000 12:41 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? =20 =20 Larry, =20 No one has answered your question so I'll take a stab. =20 1. In late October - early November, 1824, Alexander Ross and = company=20 crossed the continental divide via Lemhi Pass. (Interestingly, this = pass=20 essentially crosses the Bitterroots from Montana into Idaho. Lewis = and Clark=20 crossed it on Aug. 12, 1805. Their journal indicates the pass is = about 3 - 4=20 days travel from the Dillon, MT area.) After spending much time = and=20 ammunition shooting at geese and ducks, Ross reports, "We were at = the same=20 time surrounded on all sides by herds of buffalo, deer, moose and = elk, as=20 well as grouse, pheasant, and rabbit." Ross, Alexander. The Fur = Hunters of=20 the Far West. University of Oklahoma Press, Norman. 1956. pg. 291. =20 2. On Sept. 5, 1832, Warren Angus Ferris passed 25 miles down the = Big Hole=20 Valley. He says, "...our hunters killed three grizly(sic) bears, = several=20 goats, deer, and two buffaloes; the latter, however, is seldom found = in this=20 country; though it abounds in black and white tailed deer, elk, = sheep,=20 antelopes, and sometimes moose, and White mountain goats have been = killed=20 here." Ferris, Warren Angus. Life in the Rocky Mountains. Northland = Press,=20 Flagstaff, AZ. 1983. pg 233. =20 So without further adieu, there appears to have been moose in the = Rocky=20 Mountain trapping grounds of the mountain men. =20 Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF5883.F93C4560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Jim,
  Hell I = just finished=20 reading LIFE IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS, and I missed the note about the=20 moose.  Thanks again !
Pendleton
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Casapy123@aol.com = <Casapy123@aol.com>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Thursday, January 06, 2000 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 MOOSE ?

Larry,

No one has answered your = question=20 so I'll take a stab.

1.  In late October - early = November, 1824,=20 Alexander Ross and company
crossed the continental divide via = Lemhi=20 Pass.  (Interestingly, this pass
essentially crosses the=20 Bitterroots from Montana into Idaho.  Lewis and Clark =
crossed it on=20 Aug. 12, 1805.  Their journal indicates the pass is about 3 - 4 =
days travel from the Dillon, MT area.)   After = spending much=20 time and
ammunition shooting at geese and ducks, Ross reports, = "We=20 were at the same
time surrounded on all sides by herds of = buffalo, deer,=20 moose and elk, as
well as grouse, pheasant, and rabbit." = Ross,=20 Alexander. The Fur Hunters of
the Far West. University of = Oklahoma=20 Press, Norman.  1956.  pg. 291.

2.  On Sept. = 5, 1832,=20 Warren Angus Ferris passed 25 miles down the Big Hole =
Valley.  He=20 says, "...our hunters killed three grizly(sic) bears, several=20
goats, deer, and two buffaloes; the latter, however, is seldom = found in=20 this
country; though it abounds in black and white tailed deer, = elk,=20 sheep,
antelopes, and sometimes moose, and White mountain goats = have=20 been killed
here."  Ferris, Warren Angus. Life in the = Rocky=20 Mountains. Northland Press,
Flagstaff, AZ.  1983. pg = 233.

So=20 without further adieu, there appears to have been moose in the Rocky =
Mountain trapping grounds of the mountain men.

Jim = Hardee,=20 AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
(530)283-4566 = (H)
(530)283-3330 (W)
(530)283-5171 FAX
Casapy123@aol.com

----------= ------------
hist_text=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF5883.F93C4560-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: Bounced Mail(OFF TOPIC) Date: 06 Jan 2000 23:54:36 -0500 Hello... After a couple of "PAY YOUR INTERNET BILL" calls, I am back online.. The pinheads (and I AM being kind) that took over this server have been tinkering with it and managed to FUBAR it and it has bounce all mail for about 12 hrs.. SOooo... Anyone that has tried to threaten, cast dispersions on my character or just cuss at me and your mail has bounced back in your face, I apologize on behalf of the pinheads... Thanks for your indulgence... Dennis -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: MtMan-List: Trading sites Date: 07 Jan 2000 10:59:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF58FE.45613840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I lost all my bookmarks and included was a bookmark for a trading site = that we talked about on this site many months ago. Does anyone know its = address? or any other buckskinning trading sites. Thanks Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF58FE.45613840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I lost all my bookmarks and included = was a bookmark=20 for a trading site that we talked about on this site many months = ago.  Does=20 anyone know its address?  or any other buckskinning trading=20 sites.
 
Thanks
 
Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF58FE.45613840-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trading sites Date: 07 Jan 2000 12:02:29 PST contact me offlist at kpmtnman@hotmail.com. I will forward my list to you. >From: "Frank V. Rago" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Trading sites >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:59:29 -0500 > >I lost all my bookmarks and included was a bookmark for a trading site that >we talked about on this site many months ago. Does anyone know its >address? or any other buckskinning trading sites. > >Thanks > >Frank ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee S. Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trading sites Date: 07 Jan 2000 12:20:53 -0800 Frank I've got a few at my site .... http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill/ YMOS Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trading sites Date: 07 Jan 2000 17:38:13 -0500 Thanks for all the help guys I am getting the bookmarks updated. Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 3:20 PM > Frank > > I've got a few at my site .... > http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill/ > > YMOS > > Lee Newbill > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose Date: 08 Jan 2000 22:06:45 -0500 (EST) Bull Moose yields the right of way to a Bull Mammoth (Wooly) or a Bull Mastadon. There are TWO main points of view on how they all got to the American Continent :) from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BarneyPFife@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re-Living Our History? Date: 09 Jan 2000 15:27:25 EST A VISITOR FROM THE PAST I had a dream the other night, I didn't understand. A man was walking through the mist, with flintlock in his hand. His clothes were torn and dirty, as he stood there by my bed. He took off his three-cornered hat, and speaking low, he said: "We fought a revolution, to secure our liberty. We wrote the Constitution, as a shield from tyranny. For future generations, this legacy we gave. To the land of the free and the home of the brave." "The freedom we secured for you, we hoped you'd always keep. But tyrants labored endlessly while your parents were asleep. Your freedom gone, your courage lost, you're no more than a slave. In the land of the free and home of the brave." "You buy permits to travel, and permits to own a gun, Permits to start a business, or to build a place for one. On land that you believe you own, you pay a yearly rent. Although you have no voice in choosing, how the money's spent." "Your children must attend a school that doesn't educate. Your Christian values can't be taught, according to the state. You read about the current news, in a regulated press. You pay a tax you do not owe, to please those who assess." "You've given your control, to those who do you harm, So they can padlock churches, and steal the family farm, And keep our country deep in debt and put men of God in jail, Harass your fellow countrymen, while corrupted courts prevail." "Your public servants don't uphold the solemn oath they've sworn. Your daughters visit doctors, so their children won't be born. Your leaders ship artillery and guns to foreign shores, And send your sons to slaughter, fighting other people's wars." "As I awoke he vanished, in the mist from whence he came. His words were true, we are not free, we have ourselves to blame. For even now as tyrants, trample each God-Given Right. We only watch and tremble, too afraid to stand the sight." Adapted from a poem by Thelen Paulk (reprinted by permission) Bravery and nobility are traits that only exist when a nation is sensitive to morality and the conscience of its citizens. When a nation is no longer sensitive to the conscience of its citizens, but, instead, dispossesses them or even attacks them with weapons of war, one can know that nation's heart of bravery and nobility has turned to a heart of despotism. It may profess to be a lamb and a peace lover but, in reality, it speaks as a dragon. It may paint its weapons of war white and call its armies "peace keepers" but it is still a dragon. It may very well be that the heart of a dragon is what this nation wants, but it also should be understood, that heart will always lead a nation to its end. One cannot oppress without being oppressed. Eventually, the nation turns against itself and national ruin is the result. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Date: 11 Jan 2000 00:26:39 -0500 (EST) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Flint or Cap's Date: 11 Jan 2000 01:48:03 -0500 (EST) Ho the List! I was wonderin' what type of lock (flint or cap) was used most often during the the1830's on rifles and pistols by Trappers in the Rockys,and why? YMOS, Mike Wolfe http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 12 Jan 2000 07:31:07 -0500 Off to the Alafia Ronny in the morning. See youall when I get back. Hope to run into some of you there... Look for the MOUSE HOUSE and all are welcome at our camp... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint or Cap's Date: 11 Jan 2000 07:14:20 -0600 I believe that's what's known in some circles as a "slam dunk". The prevalent type of ignition system on rifles and pistols, in the mountains, during the fur trade era was the flintlock. Reason: If percussion caps were to get wet (a constant environment for a beaver trapper) then they became useless and their weapon{s} became a club.Flints didn't suffer that problem and could be had in their "raw" state, in most areas, by bending down and picking them up. Long John ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 12:48 AM > Ho the List! > I was wonderin' what type of lock (flint or cap) was > used most often during the > the1830's on rifles and pistols by Trappers in the Rockys,and why? > YMOS, > Mike Wolfe > > http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin > > The road to progress is the path of fools!!! > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: NMLRA Winter National Shoot Reminder-Non NMLRA member Event Date: 11 Jan 2000 07:39:03 -0700 (MST) Thought I would post this reminder for everyone that the NMLRA is holding their 8th. Annual Winter National Shoot in Phoenix Arizona, at the Ben Avery Shooting F acility approximately 23 miles to the North of Downtown Phoenix. Starting on Feb ruary 16, 2000, and Finishing on February 21, 2000. Now a little news if you are not an NMLRA Member, but would like to come and Camp Primitive for a few days in the Sonora Desert among the Giant Saguaro Cactus, Sh op on Trader Rows, Buy some Raffle Tickets, or just see what Winter National Shoo t is all about. If you are interested in coming to the event, and not participating in the NMLRA Shooting Matches, you CAN STILL come to Ben Avery Shooting Facility, and Camp in the Primitive Camp, as the property is under the control of the Arizona Game & Fi sh Department. The fees that are involved are very minimal. It will cost you $4 .00 a day for each Primitive Camp Site no matter how many are stay in your Campsi te So the numbers work out like this, you and sie Tepee you can fill it with fr iends each night, a Daily Camping Fee of $4.00 will be collected by Arizona Game & Fish, also you will be required to pay a Range Usage Fee for each Campsite of $ 4.00 every other day to use the Public Range at Ben Avery Shooting Facility. Rea son for the Range Fee is the Primitive Campground is open only to Registered Shoo ters. No reservation necessary as the Primitive Camp @ Ben Avery Shooting Facili ty is very very large. So the numbers work out like this, you and six friends come to the event, and Cam p Primitive in one Campsite with one Tent. You will pay a total of $32.00 if you stay the entire 6 days. Also if you are not an NMLRA Member but are interested in participating in the NM LRA Shooting Events, they have a NEW DEAL, where a Non Member can pay a $10.00 "E vent Participation Fee", and participate in the Winter National Shooting Events, buy paying all the other Normal Registration Fee, Match, or Aggregate fee etc. B asically you have some of the membership privileges, that allow you to compete in an NMLRA event without have to buy a full $35.00 Annual NMLRA Membership. Also there are not GATE Fees at the Ben Avery Shooting Facility, so if you live c lose enough to drive out for the day, and only want to look around, and do some s hopping on Trader Row. You will not have to pay a Gate, or Parking Fee. Also this year this is a large pool of both auction, and raffle items. That will be auctioned & raffle off Saturday night so if you are near come out and take a look, and maybe buy a few raffle tickets. There is a list of the item on my web- page this is liked below. If anyone need any more information about this posting or the NMLRA Winter Nation als, send me an e-mail on this mailing list, or check my Message Forum listed bel ow. Hope to meet some of you @ Winter National Shoot 2000, as I should be their with the Guy in the Skies help... -- Penny Pincher-NMLRA Field Representative In The West Don't Forget the NMLRA Winter National Shoot 2000 February 16-21 2000 @ The Ben Avery Shooting Facility-Phoenix Arizona http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb750171 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint or Cap's Date: 11 Jan 2000 08:53:48 -0800 About as soon as caps became available, the mountain men (mountaineers, trappers, et al), converted to them. Converting flints to cap was the mainstay of the Hawken brothers gun shop.. Whether it was because of increased reliability, or perhaps the "in thing", the entire country went for the latest technology. There are many recorded instances in the annals of the fur trade that support this. (Joe Meek being chased by the bear while his gun snapped futilely on caps, Provo outfitting his entire company with cap lock rifles, etc. As to brand names of either, go to Flayderman's, or other reference works, or perhaps a patient historical minded gunsmith/builder. Bill C -----Original Message----- >I believe that's what's known in some circles as a "slam dunk". The >prevalent type of ignition system on rifles and pistols, in the mountains, >during the fur trade era was the flintlock. Reason: If percussion caps were >to get wet (a constant environment for a beaver trapper) then they became >useless and their weapon{s} became a club.Flints didn't suffer that problem >and could be had in their "raw" state, in most areas, by bending down and >picking them up. Long John >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 12:48 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: Flint or Cap's > > >> Ho the List! >> I was wonderin' what type of lock (flint or cap) was >> used most often during the >> the1830's on rifles and pistols by Trappers in the Rockys,and why? >> YMOS, >> Mike Wolfe >> >> http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin >> >> The road to progress is the path of fools!!! >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Flint vs Percussion Date: 11 Jan 2000 15:53:52 -0800 In the book Edward Warren, Stewart Drummond notes that the mountain men he travelled with in 1833 and 1837 were mostly armed with "miserable shot-out flintlock rifles". He was quite partial to his fancy English 62 caliber Joe Manton percussion rifle. He asserted (in the hands of his favorite expert hunter) that it took more game with less lead than the flinters. So I think it is accepted that most veteran mountain men were hanging onto their trusty old flint rifles, whereas the more progressive or wealthy were adopting percussion by the end of the period. The onset of the cap-and-ball revolver no doubt accelerated the change to percussion. Speaking personally I rather enjoy shooting flint, and while there are a few tricks to keeping one going, I have seen plenty of misfires with cap as well. Lewis Garrard in his 1846 account "Yah To Wah" refers to snapping on a "new waterproof cap" during times of danger, which implies that this improvement was still worth mentioning in the 1840's (and that exposed caps might be expected to go stale!). We should also keep in mind that the supply lines to the frontier improved greatly during the 1840's. Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint or Cap's Date: 11 Jan 2000 22:38:10 -0800 Those caplocks are a cute idea, but they won't catch on........... hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint vs Percussion Date: 12 Jan 2000 09:36:07 -0800 Pat, as much as I respect you and admire the research you do, I am at odds with your position here. Edward Warren is a novel (and not a very successful one), My interpretation of what Stewart was attempting with these passages was to show that these trappers were on hard times, having only miserable. . . .flintlocks (indicating that if they were not forced to they would have better arms). Reading I have done supports that. For instance, Job Dye, a mountain man who certainly was not among the wealthy, in 1831, when traveling with Ewing Young, had an encounter with a bear, which he shot with his percussion lock rifle. This is the account in which he had to stop in the middle of the action, burn out the "tube" so the gun would continue to fire, and then finish off the bear. Joe Meek, in 1836 (The River of the West page 220), fought a bear (one of his most famous fights with them). Meek was armed with a cap lock. At this time Meek was still only a trapper, not particularly moneyed. There are too many accounts of trappers, widely spread over the west, carrying cap locks, for me to believe that they favored the flint when they could get the advanced technology. Hence, the Hawken brothers mainstay of converting flints to caps. On my wall I have two original guns, one built as a flinter in Mass in 1836, converted to cap, and one built in about 1750 as a flint, used in the revolutionary war and later converted to cap. This was a common practice during the fur trade, as far as I can tell. I know that it is fun to shoot flinters - that is what I shoot also. And certainly, they were there in the fur trade. But it is my belief that as soon as a trapper could get the more reliable percussion lock he did so. Bill C -----Original Message----- >In the book Edward Warren, Stewart Drummond notes that the mountain men he >travelled with in 1833 and 1837 were mostly armed with "miserable shot-out >flintlock rifles". He was quite partial to his fancy English 62 caliber Joe >Manton percussion rifle. He asserted (in the hands of his favorite expert >hunter) that it took more game with less lead than the flinters. So I think >it is accepted that most veteran mountain men were hanging onto their trusty >old flint rifles, whereas the more progressive or wealthy were adopting >percussion by the end of the period. The onset of the cap-and-ball revolver >no doubt accelerated the change to percussion. Speaking personally I rather >enjoy shooting flint, and while there are a few tricks to keeping one going, >I have seen plenty of misfires with cap as well. Lewis Garrard in his 1846 >account "Yah To Wah" refers to snapping on a "new waterproof cap" during >times of danger, which implies that this improvement was still worth >mentioning in the 1840's (and that exposed caps might be expected to go >stale!). We should also keep in mind that the supply lines to the frontier >improved greatly during the 1840's. >Pat Quilter > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: The Crossing (fwd from Civil War listserv) Date: 12 Jan 2000 10:27:42 -0500 I thought my fur trade friends would be interested in what one of the Civil War folks thought. This is a long one. HBC >Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 00:43:34 EST >From: EmmaSamson@aol.com >Subject: Re: The Crossing (TV movie) > >Hello all, > >I really enjoyed the film quite a bit - in fact I watched concurrent >preformances! > >I liked Jeff Daniels' portrayal of Washington (probably America's most >underrated general!) - and from what I have read of what he was going through >at the time, his almost stoic public appearance and the contrast of his more >open side with intimate friends was quite on target. He could also swear up >a storm if need be - and had a bit of a dry humor streak - as witnessed with >his jab at Gen. Henry Knox (whom Ft. Know in Kentucky is named after). Good >job at portraying an incredibly complex man whose iron will alone often kept >the dream of independence alive when Congress (cretins back then as today), >fellow commanders, desertions, lack of popular support (about 1/3 of the >colonists tops!!) and loads of other things would have crippled or destroyed >a lesser man. > >As for the accents - that of Gen. Horatio Gates was good as he was British >born and had served some years as an officer in the British Army - thus would >have been upper middle to upper class. He was a real pain to Washington (who >was a pain back) and deemed himself the ONLY American officer worthy of army >command based on his experience. While he could be a pompous ass - he did >win the big victory at Saratoga (although it can be argued that Benedict >Arnold won it by disobeying his house arrest and riding to the sound of the >guns) and did not do that badly as an army commander - at least until Camden >in South Carolina!!. > >The German accents I will leave to better qualified people. The uniforms >seemed accurate though. As an aside for the Hessians - not all Germans who >came over were Hessians. Many, if not most, were Brunswickers - but the >colonists called them all "Hessians". Not all the German troops were >mercenaries either. The Brunswickers were not - but Braunschweig (Brunswick) >was reimbursed for costs of the soldiers by Britain - as one of the Brunswick >heirarchy was married to King George III's sister. This was a practice that >Britain also used in the Napoleonic Wars. When you don't have enough >manpower hire them!!! > >As for their alleged military prowess as explained to Washington in the film >- - while they were certainly well drilled and well disciplined troops and >were >indeed feared by the as yet untrained Continental Army (and even more so my >the often terrible militias), they were not the Prussians of contemporary >Frederick The Great. THAT army was the finest in Europe period! Why >Frederick did not get involved on Britain's side is beyond me - and he did >disuade Catherine The Great of Russia not to get involved by sending troops >to America to fight for Britain. European monarchies viewed the American >revolution with quite the fear of a spread to Europe should it succeed. In >fact that feeling carried over well into the Napoleonic Wars even after >Napoleon had crowned himself emperor as enough of the French Republic was >still in place. France was not even a sure bet to intervene on the American >side for quite some time - and they did so to mess more with Britain than to >help a republican government form. They paid the price for the republican >government in their own revolution some years later (from a monarchist's >perspective anyway). > >The film did pretty well in explaining the importance of Trenton to the >colonial cause. In fact - it may well be the most important event of the war >in that had Washington lost his army would have simply dissolved, Congress >would have lost confidence in him (as they were getting hammered by his foes >like Gen. Charles Lee and Gates (among others) and he would have been >replaced and the Revolution probably would have collapsed right there. > >In that respect, Washington's raid on Trenton (and the subsequent raids on >Princeton) was probably the most important battle ever fought by American >troops. If he had lost, nothing that came after would have happened plain >and simple. A VERY underappreciated campaign. > >As for reading material historian Robert Ketchum has a book called "The >Winter Soldiers: The Battles For Trenton And Princeton" which I am sure the >supreme Ed O'Dwyer can obtain for you (along with his excellent book on >Saratoga and Bunker Hill). I have not read the Trenton book but his Saratoga >book was outstanding!!! > >Finally - as I am sure you ALL want to know - the flags depicted were >accurate!!! Although I really wanted to see the Hessian colors (quite >beautiful!!) > >Greg Biggs > **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint vs Percussion Date: 12 Jan 2000 12:10:00 -0500 (EST) It seems that opinions very! It does seem to be a hard ? to answer from what I've read in books (thats why I asked!) But I think Im inclined to agree w/ Mr. Cunningham! If I'm not mistaken the Percussion cap was invented in 1822, and it seems to me that ten years later (give or take) most folks would have switched if possible!?! Any other opinions? M.Wolfe http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint vs Percussion Date: 12 Jan 2000 11:36:06 -0800 There was nothing in the percussion line being "mass" marketed, especially in the states, until at least 1826. The first percussion caps marketed were in paper rolls, much like a kid shoots in a cap gun today. You can see a great example at the little gun museum at the Chattanooga battlefield (Fort Ogilvie), TN. -----Original Message----- It seems that opinions very! It does seem to be a hard ? to answer from what I've read in books (thats why I asked!) But I think Im inclined to agree w/ Mr. Cunningham! If I'm not mistaken the Percussion cap was invented in 1822, and it seems to me that ten years later (give or take) most folks would have switched if possible!?! Any other opinions? M.Wolfe http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Flint vs Percussion Date: 12 Jan 2000 10:36:31 -0800 Bill C and I are not really at odds in our impressions. I would agree that percussion was rapidly taking over in the 1830's, but there were some holdouts, therefore either would be "correct". I resisted reading Edward Warren until recently because it was "only a novel". However, Stewart makes it clear in his prologue that his intent was to document as much of the color and detail of his travelling observations as possible in an accessible form. The "storyline" is fairly ludicrous, but the incidents he reports have often been corroborated, and he gives them with more detail than you get in most of the journals. I read his remarks about the trapper's guns through the eyes of a high-class nobleman, somewhat disdainful of the backwards ways of the scroungy Americans. He conveyed the impression that the flintlock users were the older more hide-bound trappers, and his remark was offered as if he were answering some contention which occured around the campfires. In any case, he noted their guns, so I offered this as an eyewitness account that there were still some flint users at the end of the period. I would wager that new or rebuilt rifles coming into the mountains from the1830's on were percussion, while those who were still using older worn-out guns for whatever reason (sentiment, trust, poverty) were usually flint. The dividing line may have been whether or not you travelled to a major center of gun building (St Louis). I agree with Bill that there was a thriving business converting flint to percussion -- the museums are full of such examples. Therefore, it appears most users were voting with their wallets as soon as percussion was a stable technology. The transition was clearly under way in the 1830's and presumably complete by the 1840's. However, 10-20 years is none too long to replace a major technology -- guns at this time were comparable to automobiles now, being a central piece of "high technology" which people depended on. Even in this age of rapid development, it takes over 20 years for a technology like fuel injection to replace carburettors. So just because something was invented in 1822 doesn't mean everyone had it only ten years later. Respectfully submitted Patrick Quilter. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Flint vs Percussion Date: 12 Jan 2000 14:47:32 -0800 Absolutely! I agree with you entirely here, Pat. In fact, my first flinter I got in 1945 or 46 when my dad reached up over the windows in the front room of the old farm and told me that when I'd got a deer with it he'd consider getting me the 38-40 I kept harping about. By the time I learned to shoot it and got a deer with it I didn't want the 38-40. Flintlock was my game! I still shoot them (though traditional bows seem to be more my speed today) in preference to all others.. I'm sure there were mountain men who felt the same way. Bill -----Original Message----- > Bill C and I are not really at odds in our impressions. I would agree >that percussion was rapidly taking over in the 1830's, but there were some >holdouts, therefore either would be "correct". > I resisted reading Edward Warren until recently because it was "only a >novel". However, Stewart makes it clear in his prologue that his intent was >to document as much of the color and detail of his travelling observations >as possible in an accessible form. The "storyline" is fairly ludicrous, but >the incidents he reports have often been corroborated, and he gives them >with more detail than you get in most of the journals. I read his remarks >about the trapper's guns through the eyes of a high-class nobleman, somewhat >disdainful of the backwards ways of the scroungy Americans. He conveyed the >impression that the flintlock users were the older more hide-bound trappers, >and his remark was offered as if he were answering some contention which >occured around the campfires. In any case, he noted their guns, so I offered >this as an eyewitness account that there were still some flint users at the >end of the period. > I would wager that new or rebuilt rifles coming into the mountains from >the1830's on were percussion, while those who were still using older >worn-out guns for whatever reason (sentiment, trust, poverty) were usually >flint. The dividing line may have been whether or not you travelled to a >major center of gun building (St Louis). I agree with Bill that there was a >thriving business converting flint to percussion -- the museums are full of >such examples. Therefore, it appears most users were voting with their >wallets as soon as percussion was a stable technology. The transition was >clearly under way in the 1830's and presumably complete by the 1840's. >However, 10-20 years is none too long to replace a major technology -- guns >at this time were comparable to automobiles now, being a central piece of >"high technology" which people depended on. Even in this age of rapid >development, it takes over 20 years for a technology like fuel injection to >replace carburettors. So just because something was invented in 1822 doesn't >mean everyone had it only ten years later. >Respectfully submitted >Patrick Quilter. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Flint vs Percussion Date: 12 Jan 2000 18:13:34 -0800 Let see. In '45 I was ... um ... -10. (Hee hee he). (Good points about caps vs. flints although I think that most in mtns got not new guns but only new locks. Should be relevant info in bills of lading to the mtns tho suppliers seem quite diverse by this period.) B'st'rd Bill Cunningham wrote: > > Absolutely! I agree with you entirely here, Pat. In fact, my first flinter I > got in 1945 or 46 when my dad reached up over the windows in the front room > of the old farm and told me that when I'd got a deer with it he'd consider > getting me the 38-40 I kept harping about. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Flint vs Percussion Date: 12 Jan 2000 23:46:12 -0500 (EST) Good point Mr.Quilter! Humbly Recieved, Michael Wolfe http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Birchbark Canoes on the Columbia Date: 13 Jan 2000 03:07:31 -0800 (PST) Hallo the Camp.... A while back we were discussing the presence of birchbark canoes on the waters of the west slope..... While reading up on some events of 1813 and 1814, I found the following quotes in "The Savage Country" (Walter O'Meara, 1960).... The first, attributed to Gabriel Franchere, an Astorian clerk, Nov 1813... "Messrs. Alexander Stuart and Alexander Henry, both partners of the N.W. Company, arrived at the factory in a couple of bark canoes manned by sixteen voyageurs...." The second... supposedly from Alexander Henry the Younger's journal, (early 1814?) regarding a rather unproductive punitive expedition to reclaim goods stolen by some inland Indians.... "At noon we embarked in four birch-rind canoes and two large wooden canoes...." Location was Fort George (Old Fort Astoria), near the mouth of the Columbia. Will attempt to find the actual entries in Henry's journal when I get a chance.... Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birchbark Canoes on the Columbia Date: 13 Jan 2000 09:04:32 -0700 Lee Newbill wrote: >>The second... supposedly from Alexander Henry the Younger's journal, (early 1814?) regarding a rather unproductive punitive expedition to reclaim goods stolen by some inland Indians.... "At noon we embarked in four birch-rind canoes and two large wooden canoes...." Location was Fort George (Old Fort Astoria), near the mouth of the Columbia. Will attempt to find the actual entries in Henry's journal when I get a chance....<< Allow me . From Alexander Henry the Younger's Fort George journal for 10 Jan 1814: "At 12 O'Clock we embarked on board four canoes, two birch rind and two large wooden, 51 men and 11 Passengers, aslo Coalpo and his wife, their own canoe going in company with us, paddled by eight of his slaves." (Gough edition vol 2, p. 640) 11 Jan 1814:"At half past 6 O'clock one of our bark canoes run upon a rock and broke a large hole in her bottom..." (Gough 1:642) 12 Jan 1814:"At 12 OClock one of our bark canoes ran foul of a stump, and tore two bits of bark from her bottom, about the size of my hand, which instantly floated on the water behind the canoe. Still by bailing out the water she was kept afloat until one OClock when we put ashore to repair her..." (Gough 1:643) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birchbark Canoes on the Columbia Date: 13 Jan 2000 11:40:26 EST Ho Lee, Thanks for doin all that research! The birchbark canoe is just to versatile of a water craft to be left east of the Stonies and damned in it ain't a great way to get around. Beside, ya don't have to feed em..... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: not on this subject. Date: 13 Jan 2000 11:44:46 EST Howdy all, I was beginning to get worried, cause i havent received any postings for a few days. Did I miss something? Did something happen?....?????? was sure clad t see brother Lee's post today when i signed on. watch yer topknots ZZZZZZZZZZZZZz Wade "Sleeps loudly" Smith ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: not on this subject. Date: 13 Jan 2000 10:15:05 -0800 WSmith4100@aol.com wrote: > > Howdy all, > I was beginning to get worried, cause i havent received any postings for > a few days. Did I miss something? Did something happen?....?????? was sure > clad t see brother Lee's post today when i signed on. > > watch yer topknots > ZZZZZZZZZZZZZz > Wade "Sleeps loudly" Smith Sleeps loudly, It has been pretty quiet. You didn't miss anything. I was very interested in what Friend Lee came up with. I'll have to incorporate that finding in my thinking now. Thanks Lee, and Angela. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' P.S. Lee, got your gear together yet? Feb. 11/14 is coming fast. Have Vern help?! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Of wet snow and footwear.... Date: 13 Jan 2000 12:29:49 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, R Lahti wrote: > P.S. Lee, got your gear together yet? Feb. 11/14 is coming fast. Have > Vern help?! Dearest Capt. At first, I was planning to recreate the atmosphere of Valley Forge, and walk in barefoot, leaving bloodstained snow behind as a marker to the way out, then, in just a short distance, you all would have to carry me...... then I remembered who was going, and figgered you would either shoot all laggards, or try and make extra rations of me.... so..... I am now working feverishly on the "blanket pacs", and am wondering how to do the seams so that they don't (1) all line up with the outer mocs, and (2) don't chafe me tender, delicate footsies? Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birchbark Canoes on the Columbia Date: 13 Jan 2000 12:40:52 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Angela Gottfred wrote: > Allow me . > >From Alexander Henry the Younger's Fort George journal for 10 Jan 1814: Thanks Angela! I must note that everytime I read about the birchbark canoes... I also read a lot about "pitching the seams", or bailing, or "the canoe broke upon the rock". High maintenance and delicate creatures they were, but with all that, they logged thousands of miles in them, if not without more than a few voyagers going to a watery grave. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BoborJamie@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: "Beaver Dick" Leigh Date: 13 Jan 2000 16:19:54 EST "Dull Hawk" and Allen, sorry it's takin' me so long to get back to you. I've been trying to uncover the mystery. It appears that Beaver Dick Leigh cannot be a direct ancestor, but I'm trying to find out about a possible brother to him in Montana. My mother is 1/8 Th. Blackfoot and Beaver Dick married Bannack and Shoshone Indians. It just doesn't jive. My Mother's father was Palmer Leigh -his father was Elmer Leigh- his father is "name unknown" and was a scout for the Cavelry. If he were Beaver Dick's brother then that would be the only possible link. Thanks again for your information. I did order a couple of the books the two of you mentioned. Jenny of The Tetons was great. I haven't been able to get This Side Of The Mountains yet, but I am still trying. I haven't given up. My sister and I may go to Wyoming to the museum and then to Montana if we have to, but we are determined to find the link. Thanks again so much. Jamie boborjamie@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Of wet snow and footwear.... Date: 13 Jan 2000 13:52:47 -0800 Lee Newbill wrote: > Dearest Capt. Lee, Not that I mind blind servitude but that sure sounds like a kissup to me. Dearest Capt. Indeed! > > At first, I was planning to recreate the atmosphere of Valley Forge, Too early a period. and > walk in barefoot, leaving bloodstained snow behind as a marker to the way > out, then, in just a short distance, you all would have to carry > me...... then I remembered who was going, and figgered you would either > shoot all laggards, or try and make extra rations of me.... so..... Reality is now sinking in. > > I am now working feverishly on the "blanket pacs", and am wondering how to > do the seams so that they don't (1) all line up with the outer mocs, and > (2) don't chafe me tender, delicate footsies? Glad I asked you to ask. Baseball stitch or "herring bone" stitch. Use wool yarn for most seams. I just finished two pair using an old Sorel Pac liner for a pattern. Two uppers that fasten up the front of the foot and two sole pieces that have a simply running stitch all the way around to fasten uppers and soles. Make the uppers first if you have a pattern like I did. Lots simpler to get the right shape. If you do that just start at the front and do a "herring bone" stitch back and forth between each side as you move up the seam. The stitch pulls the two pieces together so they butt like the stitches on a baseball make the pieces of a baseball cover butt together. I think they use two threads on baseballs but you can use just one, going back and forth, it will look like a baseball stitch. Once the uppers are together to the front of the ankle or a bit lower, (don't want them so tight there you can't pull them on), start at the front of one side and using a simple up and down running stitch go from front to back and then back to front pushing the needle the opposite way through the first set of stitches. Start at the front and attach the other side the same way. Once done with that you can trim off any extra material up the back and use the herring bone stitch to close that seam. The only seams that might give you any problem are the ones at the bottom sides and they will have the selvage to the outside. Another important feature you should incorporate is a stitch line across each two sole pieces just behind the ball of your foot and just forward of your heal. You can do that with normal thread so the stitch itself is not thick. These two lines of stitch keep the sole pieces from sliding with your foot. If you do not have an existing pattern for the sides you simply sew the sides as "rectangles" onto the soles along the bottom seam first and then up the back and then close the front by going back and forth as you gather the two fronts together. Trim the excess off the fronts and backs, cut the seam open, trim off the seam allowance and put back together with the baseball/herringbone stitch so you do not have a raised seam pressing into the top of your foot. You can make mocs the same way but for winter snow shoeing I like a center seam with a vamp insert like the "Lakes" indians make/made in Canada, etc. Hard to explain how to make those. You need to see a picture. But the above directions will make serviceable mocs. Be sure to make the mocs after you have the liners made that will fit over wool socks. I think we are going to go to the Gresham BP gun show this Sat. and not go up to the David T Party winter camp for just one night. Talk at you later. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Flint vs Percussion Date: 13 Jan 2000 16:08:00 -0700 Bill, I have always wafered of this subject ( I shoot and hunt with a flinter most of the time and carry a flinter at camps), but did run across something I found interesting on this subject while doing rescearch on another project: from "Adventures in the Santa Fe Trade, 1844-47" by James Josiah Webb. pages 116-7 "He (Doan) had been presented with an old rifle by Messrs. Bent, St. Vrain and Company, and wished me to trade with him for a double-barrelled shotgun I had. The trade proposed was not very enticing, but inconsideration of his anxiety for the trade and the history of the rifle, I finally accomodated him by a even swap, and have never regretted it. Many years before, a trapper employed by the American Fur Company had taken it on a trapping expedition in the Blackfeet country . The Indians killed him and took his gun. Years after Messrs. Bent, St. Vrain and Company sent an expedition to that nation on a trapping and trading trip, and traded for the old rifle. At the fort it was restocked (full length) and altered from flint-lock to percussion, and kept at the fort as a target rifle for several years. In 1846 I had it newly grooved, half stocked, and added a new lock and breech pin, and carried it in all my travels in the trade except for my last trip. In 1849 a man from Boonville Missouri, on his way to California, came into the store where I was cleaning it up, and on looking at it, said " My father made that gun. There are his initials. It must be very old, for he has been dead for many years and did no work of that kind for many of the last years of his life. He made all his guns by hammering out the barrels by hand and boring them and creasing them in the same way". This is the history of my old and trusty friend, companion and bedfellow, who never went back on me- "old Blackfoot"- the name it was known by at the fort and which I always retained." Quite a history! And it also shows how some of the old guns were used and reused till there were nothing left. Bill Cunningham wrote: > Absolutely! I agree with you entirely here, Pat. In fact, my first flinter I > got in 1945 or 46 when my dad reached up over the windows in the front room > of the old farm and told me that when I'd got a deer with it he'd consider > getting me the 38-40 I kept harping about. By the time I learned to shoot it > and got a deer with it I didn't want the 38-40. Flintlock was my game! I > still shoot them (though traditional bows seem to be more my speed today) in > preference to all others.. I'm sure there were mountain men who felt the > same way. > Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Quilter > To: Mtnman Forum (E-mail) > Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 10:33 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Flint vs Percussion > > > Bill C and I are not really at odds in our impressions. I would agree > >that percussion was rapidly taking over in the 1830's, but there were some > >holdouts, therefore either would be "correct". > > I resisted reading Edward Warren until recently because it was "only a > >novel". However, Stewart makes it clear in his prologue that his intent was > >to document as much of the color and detail of his travelling observations > >as possible in an accessible form. The "storyline" is fairly ludicrous, but > >the incidents he reports have often been corroborated, and he gives them > >with more detail than you get in most of the journals. I read his remarks > >about the trapper's guns through the eyes of a high-class nobleman, > somewhat > >disdainful of the backwards ways of the scroungy Americans. He conveyed the > >impression that the flintlock users were the older more hide-bound > trappers, > >and his remark was offered as if he were answering some contention which > >occured around the campfires. In any case, he noted their guns, so I > offered > >this as an eyewitness account that there were still some flint users at the > >end of the period. > > I would wager that new or rebuilt rifles coming into the mountains from > >the1830's on were percussion, while those who were still using older > >worn-out guns for whatever reason (sentiment, trust, poverty) were usually > >flint. The dividing line may have been whether or not you travelled to a > >major center of gun building (St Louis). I agree with Bill that there was a > >thriving business converting flint to percussion -- the museums are full of > >such examples. Therefore, it appears most users were voting with their > >wallets as soon as percussion was a stable technology. The transition was > >clearly under way in the 1830's and presumably complete by the 1840's. > >However, 10-20 years is none too long to replace a major technology -- guns > >at this time were comparable to automobiles now, being a central piece of > >"high technology" which people depended on. Even in this age of rapid > >development, it takes over 20 years for a technology like fuel injection to > >replace carburettors. So just because something was invented in 1822 > doesn't > >mean everyone had it only ten years later. > >Respectfully submitted > >Patrick Quilter. > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Flint vs Percussion Date: 13 Jan 2000 16:52:30 -0800 I don't waffle on the subject - I tend to get pedantic and boring about it. In my mind, according to the research I've done (and I once did considerable for a series of magazine articles), percussions hit the mountains about as quickly as they became available and the trappers could lay hands on them. Yes, many of them merely had their flints converted to cap, but that still made a percussion gun. I prefer the romance - and the convenience - of a flinter. To me they have more personality and I prefer priming the pan to loading up a cap loader and then squeezing that fragile little sucker onto the nipple. And for me a flinter cleans easier without later misfires due to something I forgot to prod out of the nipple. Bill -----Original Message----- >Bill, > I have always wafered of this subject ( I shoot and hunt with a flinter most >of the time and carry a flinter at camps), but did run across something I found >interesting on this subject while doing rescearch on another project: > from "Adventures in the Santa Fe Trade, 1844-47" by James Josiah Webb. pages >116-7 > "He (Doan) had been presented with an old rifle by Messrs. Bent, St. Vrain >and Company, and wished me to trade with him for a double-barrelled shotgun I >had. The trade proposed was not very enticing, but inconsideration of his >anxiety for the trade and the history of the rifle, I finally accomodated him by >a even swap, and have never regretted it. Many years before, a trapper employed >by the American Fur Company had taken it on a trapping expedition in the >Blackfeet country . The Indians killed him and took his gun. Years after Messrs. >Bent, St. Vrain and Company sent an expedition to that nation on a trapping and >trading trip, and traded for the old rifle. At the fort it was restocked (full >length) and altered from flint-lock to percussion, and kept at the fort as a >target rifle for several years. In 1846 I had it newly grooved, half stocked, >and added a new lock and breech pin, and carried it in all my travels in the >trade except for my last trip. In 1849 a man from Boonville Missouri, on his way >to California, came into the store where I was cleaning it up, and on looking at >it, said " My father made that gun. There are his initials. It must be very old, >for he has been dead for many years and did no work of that kind for many of the >last years of his life. He made all his guns by hammering out the barrels by >hand and boring them and creasing them in the same way". > This is the history of my old and trusty friend, companion and bedfellow, >who never went back on me- "old Blackfoot"- the name it was known by at the fort >and which I always retained." > Quite a history! And it also shows how some of the old guns were used >and reused till there were nothing left. > >Bill Cunningham wrote: > >> Absolutely! I agree with you entirely here, Pat. In fact, my first flinter I >> got in 1945 or 46 when my dad reached up over the windows in the front room >> of the old farm and told me that when I'd got a deer with it he'd consider >> getting me the 38-40 I kept harping about. By the time I learned to shoot it >> and got a deer with it I didn't want the 38-40. Flintlock was my game! I >> still shoot them (though traditional bows seem to be more my speed today) in >> preference to all others.. I'm sure there were mountain men who felt the >> same way. >> Bill >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pat Quilter >> To: Mtnman Forum (E-mail) >> Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 10:33 AM >> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Flint vs Percussion >> >> > Bill C and I are not really at odds in our impressions. I would agree >> >that percussion was rapidly taking over in the 1830's, but there were some >> >holdouts, therefore either would be "correct". >> > I resisted reading Edward Warren until recently because it was "only a >> >novel". However, Stewart makes it clear in his prologue that his intent was >> >to document as much of the color and detail of his travelling observations >> >as possible in an accessible form. The "storyline" is fairly ludicrous, but >> >the incidents he reports have often been corroborated, and he gives them >> >with more detail than you get in most of the journals. I read his remarks >> >about the trapper's guns through the eyes of a high-class nobleman, >> somewhat >> >disdainful of the backwards ways of the scroungy Americans. He conveyed the >> >impression that the flintlock users were the older more hide-bound >> trappers, >> >and his remark was offered as if he were answering some contention which >> >occured around the campfires. In any case, he noted their guns, so I >> offered >> >this as an eyewitness account that there were still some flint users at the >> >end of the period. >> > I would wager that new or rebuilt rifles coming into the mountains from >> >the1830's on were percussion, while those who were still using older >> >worn-out guns for whatever reason (sentiment, trust, poverty) were usually >> >flint. The dividing line may have been whether or not you travelled to a >> >major center of gun building (St Louis). I agree with Bill that there was a >> >thriving business converting flint to percussion -- the museums are full of >> >such examples. Therefore, it appears most users were voting with their >> >wallets as soon as percussion was a stable technology. The transition was >> >clearly under way in the 1830's and presumably complete by the 1840's. >> >However, 10-20 years is none too long to replace a major technology -- guns >> >at this time were comparable to automobiles now, being a central piece of >> >"high technology" which people depended on. Even in this age of rapid >> >development, it takes over 20 years for a technology like fuel injection to >> >replace carburettors. So just because something was invented in 1822 >> doesn't >> >mean everyone had it only ten years later. >> >Respectfully submitted >> >Patrick Quilter. >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Flint vs Cap Date: 13 Jan 2000 16:18:32 -0800 (PST) My feelings are hurt. When I ask this same basic question a few months ago, I didn't get this much info. I guess thats why you have to keep up with the flow. grn ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MOOSE ? Date: 13 Jan 2000 20:27:49 EST Hello Camp, Just got back from hunting in Colorado with friends, nice fat cow elk for= the effort. Talk about moose Mike, Buck was right we saw a half dozen year ol= d calves, some mom's and two bulls, right where he told you Mr. Moore to lo= ok. The weather was great, never that nice when Turtle and yours truely lived= there, perfect hunting weather and good sleeping. We're going to apply for moose in Colorado in April now that Buck showed = them to me, out of stater's may have trouble getting drawn from what a game wa= rden told us. I'll try anyway, man are those babies are big and they don't see= m to care whether you are around, not like elk that haul ass. Pennsylvania has started a good elk program, something else to draw for t= his year. Seems like everytime Dennis - I get to my e-mail I'm doing wash after returning from Colorado. Damn Buck makes it to easy for me and his wife a= lways loads me up with lots of goodies to eat while I'm driving back home, thin= k she figures if I got a sugar hi, I won't go to sleep while driving. Later, another load is done. Concho Hey Buck - THANKS Oh your personal page looks great, check it out guys he put a few items f= rom his collection on it, neat stuff and more to come. Get the trade guns and= the officers pistols on there pal - everyone would like to see them. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint vs Percussion Date: 13 Jan 2000 19:15:06 -0800 I remember reading that most of the boys that went to the civil war used flintlocks at home due to the cost of percussion caps that were used as tools for rich people and professionals (but I can't remember where I saw it, may have been in Foote's books) ---------- >From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint vs Percussion >Date: Wed, Jan 12, 2000, 9:10 AM > >It seems that opinions very! It does seem to be a hard ? to answer >from what I've read in books (thats why I asked!) But I think Im >inclined to agree w/ Mr. Cunningham! If I'm >not mistaken the Percussion cap was invented >in 1822, and it seems to me that ten years later (give or take) most >folks would have switched if possible!?! Any other opinions? > M.Wolfe > >http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin > >The road to progress is the path of fools!!! > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Email use fees (off topic, but important) Date: 14 Jan 2000 08:32:43 -0500 >INTERNET FEES-GOING TO CONGRESS >CNN has reported that within the next two weeks Congress is going to vote >on allowing telephone companies to CHARGE A TOLL FEE for Internet access. >Translation: Every time we send a long distance e-mail we will receive a >long distance charge. This will get costly. Please visit the following web >site and file a complaint to your Congressperson. We can't allow this to >pass! The following address will allow you to send an e-mail on this >subject DIRECTLY to your Congressperson. > >http://www.house.gov/writerep > >Put this in your address book. Pass this on to your friends. It is urgent! >I hope all of you will pass this on to all your friends and family. We >should ALL have an interest in this one. > >WAIT, THERE'S MORE! IN ADDITION, The last few months have revealed an >alarming trend in the government of the United States attempting to >quietly push through legislation that will affect your use of the >Internet. Under proposed legislation the U.S. Postal Service will be >attempting to bilk email users out of "alternate postage fees." Bill 602P >will permit the Federal Govt. to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email >delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer >would then be billed in turn by the ISP. Washington D.C. lawyer Richard >Stepp is working without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming >law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost revenue due to the >proliferation of e-mail costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. >You may have noticed their recent ad campaign "There is nothing like a >letter." Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of e-mail per >day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50 >cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above and beyond their >regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money paid directly to the >U.S. Postal Service for a service they do not even provide. > >The whole point of the Internet is democracy and non-interference. If the >federal government is permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a >surcharge to email, who knows where it will end. You are already paying an >exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency. It >currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from New York to >Buffalo. If the U.S. Postal Service is allowed to tinker with email, it >will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United States. One >congressman, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a "twenty to forty dollar >per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the >government's proposed email charges. Note that most of the major >newspapers have ignored the story, the only exception being the >Washingtonian which called the idea of email surcharge "a useful concept >who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999 Editorial). Don't sit by and watch >your freedoms erode away! Send this e-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and >tell all your friends and relatives to write to their Congressman and say >"No!" to Bill 602P. It will only take a few moments of your time, and >could very well be instrumental in killing a bill we don't want. PASS THIS >ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WHO USES EMAIL REMEMBER THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE >ISSUES THAT EFFECT ALL OF US ONLINE. LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD NOW, NOT >AFTER. **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birchbark Canoes Date: 14 Jan 2000 11:17:08 -0500 (EST) Ho the list! I found a ref. to Birch Bark canoes in Sewell Newhouses (a manufacturer of beaver traps!) "The Trapers Guide;A manual of instructions"from the 19th cen....Newhouse praised the dugout canoe as "strong and serviceable though many trappers found it heavy to carry.....The birchbark canoe was, "preferred on streams where portage is necessary." YMOS, M. Wolfe http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Email use fees (off topic, but important) Date: 14 Jan 2000 11:25:30 -0500 (EST) I already did this and got a nice letter(snail mail no less) from my congressman saying this was untrue and that he would fight any such legeslation in the future. Also inclued was a memo from the Postoffice titiled "E-mail rumor completely untrue!" so give your C-man a break this is a false rumor!!! M.W http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pavel Grund" Subject: MtMan-List: Hallo! Date: 14 Jan 2000 17:30:08 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF5EB5.00FAEF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hallo ! I am new member these discussion group. I am from Czech republic- = central Europe. Our club TRAPPERS=B4 CORRAL is item of WESTERNERS = INTERNATIONAL, and is focused in life of trappers in USA, mainly = MOUNTAINMENS. If you be interested our activity, visit page = WWW.WESTERNERS.CZ specially TRAPPERS=B4 CORRAL. I'm looking forward to = next interesting discussions . PEGGY ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF5EB5.00FAEF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hallo !
I am new member these = discussion=20 group. I am from Czech republic- central Europe. Our club TRAPPERS=B4 = CORRAL is=20 item of WESTERNERS INTERNATIONAL, and is focused in life of trappers in = USA,=20 mainly MOUNTAINMENS. If you be interested our activity, visit  page = WWW.WESTERNERS.CZ specially = TRAPPERS=B4=20 CORRAL. I'm looking forward to   next interesting discussions = .=20 PEGGY
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF5EB5.00FAEF40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Email use fees (off topic, but important) Date: 14 Jan 2000 08:30:00 -0800 As did I..... John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 8:25 AM > I already did this and got a nice letter(snail mail no less) from my > congressman saying this was untrue and that he would fight any such > legeslation in the future. Also inclued was a memo from the Postoffice > titiled "E-mail rumor completely untrue!" so give your C-man a break > this is a false rumor!!! > M.W > > http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin > > The road to progress is the path of fools!!! > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Email use fees-urban legend Date: 14 Jan 2000 09:00:23 -0500 Friends, It has been brought to my attention that the email fee story I forwarded to this list is a hoax. Please forgive me, but as you know these days Congress is sometimes prone to doing some pretty silly things. However, in the course of discovering that this one is merely an urban legend, I discovered a neat website at: http://urbanlegends.about.com/culture/urbanlegends/ Some of those old tales take me back to my camp counselor days. Enjoy. Cheers, HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping in Alaska Date: 14 Jan 2000 11:36:19 -0500 (EST) Gee, I almost forgot why I got on here in the frist place! Question, How early were American/ Eroupian trappers venturing up into Alaska? I thought I read about a Canadian Alexander Mackenzie going into the region in the late 18th. cen.? Again, Your Most Obidian Servant, Michael Wolfe http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Email use fees (off topic, but important) Date: 14 Jan 2000 10:19:30 -0500 This is a debunked hoax. D -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping in Alaska Date: 14 Jan 2000 10:24:46 -0500 I hate to sound like a certain politician, but it depends on what your definition of "Alaska" is (or what your definition of "European trappers" is). The Russians were active in the Aleutian Islands as early as the 1740s and had fur trading camps on the mainland of Alaska by the 1750s. This activity was simply an extension of the Siberian fur trade in the most logical direction and the Russians were mostly traders rather than trappers. By the mid-1770s, much of the southern Alaskan coast was extensively mapped by the great British explorers, including Captain James Cook, and British and Boston ships followed into the area for fur-trading purposes by the 1780s. Again, little if any trapping was practiced; furs were obtained by trading with the native peoples. One of North America's most important explorers, the Scot Alexander Mackenzie, traveled down the Mackenzie River to the Arctic Ocean in 1789 and, in 1792-93, crossed the Continental Divide (the first European to do so north of Mexico) from the Peace River to the Fraser River, which he followed down to the Pacific. On neither of these trips did he enter into what we now define as Alaska. Neither did he do any trapping but he was representing the continent's largest fur-trading company at the time so he definitely would fall into the category of fur trade explorer. The first documented entry into Alaska from the East (by English and Scots, not Russians who were active only in the coastal areas) came in 1839 when John Bell, a representative of the Hudson's Bay Company, crossed the Richardson Mountains from the Mackenzie River Valley and reached the Porcupine River and followed it downstream to its junction with the Yukon. Bell and his HBC contemporary, Robert Campell, who reached the Yukon in the early 1840s, were both traders and trappers. Sources: John L. Allen (ed.), North American Exploration (Univ. of Neb. Press 1997), especially the relevant chapters by Gibson in vol. 2 and by Allen in vol. 3; Richard Ruggles, A Country So Interesting: The Hudson's Bay Company and Two Centuries of Mapping (Montreal, 1991); and Theodore J. Karamanski, Fur Trade and Exploration: Opening the Far Northwest, 1821-1852 (Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1983). ************************************ Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 johnlallen@uconn.cted.net ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 11:36 AM > Gee, I almost forgot why I got on here in the frist place! Question, How > early were American/ > Eroupian trappers venturing up into Alaska? > I thought I read about a Canadian Alexander > Mackenzie going into the region in the late 18th. cen.? > Again, Your Most Obidian Servant, > Michael Wolfe > > http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin > > The road to progress is the path of fools!!! > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hallo! Date: 14 Jan 2000 12:16:59 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF5E89.41B86FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello. I am a friend of Dr. Cech of your television industry, and of = Peter Semelka, formerly of your country. Good to hear from you. I was = once on a television program on your television called Objective. Bill Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Pavel Grund To: ve=F8ejn=E1 konference US MM Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 8:31 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Hallo! =20 =20 Hallo ! I am new member these discussion group. I am from Czech republic- = central Europe. Our club TRAPPERS=B4 CORRAL is item of WESTERNERS = INTERNATIONAL, and is focused in life of trappers in USA, mainly = MOUNTAINMENS. If you be interested our activity, visit page = WWW.WESTERNERS.CZ specially TRAPPERS=B4 CORRAL. I'm looking forward to = next interesting discussions . PEGGY ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF5E89.41B86FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello. I am a friend of Dr. Cech of = your=20 television industry, and of Peter Semelka, formerly of your country. = Good to=20 hear from you. I was once on a television program on your television = called=20 Objective.
 
Bill Cunningham
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Pavel Grund <peggy@pce.czcom.cz>
To:=20 ve=F8ejná konference US MM <hist_text@xmission.com>
= Date:=20 Friday, January 14, 2000 8:31 AM
Subject: MtMan-List:=20 Hallo!

Hallo !
I am new member = these=20 discussion group. I am from Czech republic- central Europe. Our club = TRAPPERS´ CORRAL is item of WESTERNERS INTERNATIONAL, and is = focused=20 in life of trappers in USA, mainly MOUNTAINMENS. If you be = interested our=20 activity, visit  page WWW.WESTERNERS.CZ specially=20 TRAPPERS´ CORRAL. I'm looking forward to   next = interesting=20 discussions . PEGGY
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF5E89.41B86FC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hallo! Date: 14 Jan 2000 12:02:05 -0500 On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:30:08 +0100 "Pavel Grund" writes: > Hallo ! PEGGY welcome to the fire hope you enjoy the chat and can understand my accent since i come from the southern united states---while in germany in the military i was told that i spoke with a very heavy accent---not common to others that spoke english--- hope you enjoy and again welcome--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: Hallo! Date: 14 Jan 2000 11:41:42 -0800 (PST) Hawk: I'm from S.C.Oklahoma, and I cain't understand your accent.( You don't talk "Okie") Welcome to the fireside, hope you enjoy !!! Peggy grn > welcome to the fire hope you enjoy the chat and can > understand my accent > since i come from the southern united states---while > in germany in the > military i was told that i spoke with a very heavy > accent---not common to > others that spoke english--- > > > hope you enjoy and again welcome--- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: > 1-727-771-1815 > e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE > software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 14 Jan 2000 15:28:21 EST Hello to those who are interested in the mountain man. I need some advise. After years of research on the American mountain man and work on my Ph.D., I wrote a dissertation on Robert Campbell. Over the past years, new letters from him to his wife and other have been found. I decided to add these and convert the book to a more readable novel. I kept his actual words as much as possible and stayed true to his real nature. This man was honorable. The book will be published in late January-- Irish Mountain Man, The Story of Robert Campbell. I want to get a wide distribution and believe that people who are interested in this time and life style would find it interesting and of value to their understanding of the nature of a person who was a close friend of Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and partner of Bill Sublette. Does anyone have any ideas? I have thought of creating a web page [Irishmountainman.com] and trying to get people to go there and order from the Prism Distributing Company which will distribute the book for me. I have been invited to Ireland to sign copies at the Irish-American Folk Park where Campbell's ancestral home has been restored. I am thinking about going to several rendezvous. It will be carried on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., but, it is complicated and not very profitable to carry it on these dealers. Are there specific places which I should contact to see if they will stock the book? I decided to keep the price as low as possible ($12.95) and in paperback to allow most people to be able to afford it. [I am used to not making much profit-- I run a not-for-profit community mental health center}] I really believe that Campbell has a lot to say to people today. Anyway, I would appreciate any ideas from the readers. Thanks, Steve [huss931@aol.com] ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 14 Jan 2000 14:52:19 -0800 Go to http://www:whattheheckisthis? They will list the book for nothing and charge you nothing for those that sell. A real change from the 50 to 55% distributors charge or the 25 to 40 % bookstores get. Congratulations on finishing what must have been a lengthy process. Bill Cunningham -----Original Message----- >Hello to those who are interested in the mountain man. > >I need some advise. After years of research on the American mountain man >and work on my Ph.D., I wrote a dissertation on Robert Campbell. Over the >past years, new letters from him to his wife and other have been found. I >decided to add these and convert the book to a more readable novel. I kept >his actual words as much as possible and stayed true to his real nature. >This man was honorable. > >The book will be published in late January-- Irish Mountain Man, The Story of >Robert Campbell. I want to get a wide distribution and believe that people >who are interested in this time and life style would find it interesting and >of value to their understanding of the nature of a person who was a close >friend of Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and partner of Bill Sublette. > >Does anyone have any ideas? I have thought of creating a web page >[Irishmountainman.com] and trying to get people to go there and order from >the Prism Distributing Company which will distribute the book for me. I have >been invited to Ireland to sign copies at the Irish-American Folk Park where >Campbell's ancestral home has been restored. I am thinking about going to >several rendezvous. > >It will be carried on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., but, it is complicated >and not very profitable to carry it on these dealers. Are there specific >places which I should contact to see if they will stock the book? > >I decided to keep the price as low as possible ($12.95) and in paperback to >allow most people to be able to afford it. [I am used to not making much >profit-- I run a not-for-profit community mental health center}] I really >believe that Campbell has a lot to say to people today. > >Anyway, I would appreciate any ideas from the readers. > >Thanks, > > Steve [huss931@aol.com] > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 14 Jan 2000 15:11:06 -0800 Correction: it's not whattheheckisthis - it's, whattheheckisthat. Sorry\ Bill C -----Original Message----- >Hello to those who are interested in the mountain man. > >I need some advise. After years of research on the American mountain man >and work on my Ph.D., I wrote a dissertation on Robert Campbell. Over the >past years, new letters from him to his wife and other have been found. I >decided to add these and convert the book to a more readable novel. I kept >his actual words as much as possible and stayed true to his real nature. >This man was honorable. > >The book will be published in late January-- Irish Mountain Man, The Story of >Robert Campbell. I want to get a wide distribution and believe that people >who are interested in this time and life style would find it interesting and >of value to their understanding of the nature of a person who was a close >friend of Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and partner of Bill Sublette. > >Does anyone have any ideas? I have thought of creating a web page >[Irishmountainman.com] and trying to get people to go there and order from >the Prism Distributing Company which will distribute the book for me. I have >been invited to Ireland to sign copies at the Irish-American Folk Park where >Campbell's ancestral home has been restored. I am thinking about going to >several rendezvous. > >It will be carried on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., but, it is complicated >and not very profitable to carry it on these dealers. Are there specific >places which I should contact to see if they will stock the book? > >I decided to keep the price as low as possible ($12.95) and in paperback to >allow most people to be able to afford it. [I am used to not making much >profit-- I run a not-for-profit community mental health center}] I really >believe that Campbell has a lot to say to people today. > >Anyway, I would appreciate any ideas from the readers. > >Thanks, > > Steve [huss931@aol.com] > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 14 Jan 2000 17:04:17 EST Bill, THANKS. I will try to use it too. Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Robert Campbell Date: 14 Jan 2000 16:03:33 -0700 Okay you knowledge-based left-brainers...is the Robert Campbell friend & pard of Sublette the same guy who trekked into the Alaskan country in the '40's...or are they different Campbells? Rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anne MacDonnald Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Email use fees (off topic, but important) Date: 14 Jan 2000 18:24:36 -0500 sorry if I offend... but to put it bluntly...the below 'news' is bullshit.. now back to lurking and sewing for the Alafia a. "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > >INTERNET FEES-GOING TO CONGRESS > >CNN has reported that within the next two weeks Congress is going to vote > >on allowing telephone companies to CHARGE A TOLL FEE for Internet access. > >Translation: Every time we send a long distance e-mail we will receive a > >long distance charge. This will get costly. Please visit the following web > >site and file a complaint to your Congressperson. We can't allow this to > >pass! The following address will allow you to send an e-mail on this > >subject DIRECTLY to your Congressperson. > > > >http://www.house.gov/writerep > > > >Put this in your address book. Pass this on to your friends. It is urgent! > >I hope all of you will pass this on to all your friends and family. We > >should ALL have an interest in this one. > > > >WAIT, THERE'S MORE! IN ADDITION, The last few months have revealed an > >alarming trend in the government of the United States attempting to > >quietly push through legislation that will affect your use of the > >Internet. Under proposed legislation the U.S. Postal Service will be > >attempting to bilk email users out of "alternate postage fees." Bill 602P > >will permit the Federal Govt. to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email > >delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer > >would then be billed in turn by the ISP. Washington D.C. lawyer Richard > >Stepp is working without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming > >law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost revenue due to the > >proliferation of e-mail costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. > >You may have noticed their recent ad campaign "There is nothing like a > >letter." Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of e-mail per > >day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50 > >cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above and beyond their > >regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money paid directly to the > >U.S. Postal Service for a service they do not even provide. > > > >The whole point of the Internet is democracy and non-interference. If the > >federal government is permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a > >surcharge to email, who knows where it will end. You are already paying an > >exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency. It > >currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from New York to > >Buffalo. If the U.S. Postal Service is allowed to tinker with email, it > >will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United States. One > >congressman, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a "twenty to forty dollar > >per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the > >government's proposed email charges. Note that most of the major > >newspapers have ignored the story, the only exception being the > >Washingtonian which called the idea of email surcharge "a useful concept > >who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999 Editorial). Don't sit by and watch > >your freedoms erode away! Send this e-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and > >tell all your friends and relatives to write to their Congressman and say > >"No!" to Bill 602P. It will only take a few moments of your time, and > >could very well be instrumental in killing a bill we don't want. PASS THIS > >ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WHO USES EMAIL REMEMBER THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE > >ISSUES THAT EFFECT ALL OF US ONLINE. LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD NOW, NOT > >AFTER. > > **************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 > Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 14 Jan 2000 19:00:23 -0500 Steve, It's tough to sell good books these days, particularly if you aren't one of the "big names". I wish you luck! A really productive outlet for western books is the bookstore that is housed in nearly all museums and visitors' centers in federal establishments (national parks, monuments, forests, etc.), and state parks/recreation areas in the West. The folks who stock those stores (sometimes run by the federal or state government, more often by a contract vendor) tend to look for reviews of recently published works in the periodical literature to find appropriate titles for their shelves. If you can afford it, send copies of your book for review to journals such as Montana, the magazine of western history (Helena, MT), and the Western Historical Quarterly (Logan, UT). Both of these journals are associated with the Western History Association. Also send copies to state historical societies for review in their journals (virtually all state historical societies in the West have decent quarterly journals). This should help to get your work onto shelves in western bookstores in places of high tourist traffic. For direct sales through your own website or Amazon.com, etc., your best bet is also the book review route in historical journals. You're dealing with a fairly specialized audience that tends to read specialized material. The trick is to get them to notice your book and the best way to do that is to "advertise" through book reviews in the journals produced by the organizations to which they belong. My publishers have told me that one book review in a decent historical periodical is worth several expensive advertisements in the same magazine. Hope this helps. John ************************************ Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 johnlallen@uconn.cted.net ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 3:28 PM > Hello to those who are interested in the mountain man. > > I need some advise. After years of research on the American mountain man > and work on my Ph.D., I wrote a dissertation on Robert Campbell. Over the > past years, new letters from him to his wife and other have been found. I > decided to add these and convert the book to a more readable novel. I kept > his actual words as much as possible and stayed true to his real nature. > This man was honorable. > > The book will be published in late January-- Irish Mountain Man, The Story of > Robert Campbell. I want to get a wide distribution and believe that people > who are interested in this time and life style would find it interesting and > of value to their understanding of the nature of a person who was a close > friend of Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and partner of Bill Sublette. > > Does anyone have any ideas? I have thought of creating a web page > [Irishmountainman.com] and trying to get people to go there and order from > the Prism Distributing Company which will distribute the book for me. I have > been invited to Ireland to sign copies at the Irish-American Folk Park where > Campbell's ancestral home has been restored. I am thinking about going to > several rendezvous. > > It will be carried on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., but, it is complicated > and not very profitable to carry it on these dealers. Are there specific > places which I should contact to see if they will stock the book? > > I decided to keep the price as low as possible ($12.95) and in paperback to > allow most people to be able to afford it. [I am used to not making much > profit-- I run a not-for-profit community mental health center}] I really > believe that Campbell has a lot to say to people today. > > Anyway, I would appreciate any ideas from the readers. > > Thanks, > > Steve [huss931@aol.com] > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping in Alaska Date: 14 Jan 2000 19:47:27 -0700 Michael Wolfe wrote: >>Eroupian trappers venturing up into Alaska? I thought I read about a Canadian Alexander Mackenzie going into the region in the late 18th. cen.?<< Mackenzie, who worked for the North West Company, went down the Mackenzie River to its mouth in the Arctic Ocean in 1789. In 1793, he went west from Peace River, Alberta to Bella Coola, B.C (on the Pacific Ocean, 13 years before Lewis & Clark). He was knighted for this feat. I'm pretty sure that neither route entered what is now Alaska. The Russians, on the other hand, started trapping sea otters in Alaska's Alexander Archipelago in the 1740's, and started establishing fur posts in Alaska in the 1790's. The Russian-American Company was established in Russia in 1799; it was modelled on the HBC & Dutch East India Company. (This isn't my research area--yet--but I got a copy of a book on the NW coast fur trade for Christmas.) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 14 Jan 2000 19:26:57 -0800 Bill, Your web site don't compute.......http://www:whattheheckisthis John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 2:52 PM > Go to http://www:whattheheckisthis? They will list the book for nothing and > charge you nothing for those that sell. A real change from the 50 to 55% > distributors charge or the 25 to 40 % bookstores get. > Congratulations on finishing what must have been a lengthy process. > > Bill Cunningham > -----Original Message----- > From: Huss931@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:28 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: mountain man book > > > >Hello to those who are interested in the mountain man. > > > >I need some advise. After years of research on the American mountain man > >and work on my Ph.D., I wrote a dissertation on Robert Campbell. Over the > >past years, new letters from him to his wife and other have been found. I > >decided to add these and convert the book to a more readable novel. I kept > >his actual words as much as possible and stayed true to his real nature. > >This man was honorable. > > > >The book will be published in late January-- Irish Mountain Man, The Story > of > >Robert Campbell. I want to get a wide distribution and believe that people > >who are interested in this time and life style would find it interesting > and > >of value to their understanding of the nature of a person who was a close > >friend of Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and partner of Bill Sublette. > > > >Does anyone have any ideas? I have thought of creating a web page > >[Irishmountainman.com] and trying to get people to go there and order from > >the Prism Distributing Company which will distribute the book for me. I > have > >been invited to Ireland to sign copies at the Irish-American Folk Park > where > >Campbell's ancestral home has been restored. I am thinking about going to > >several rendezvous. > > > >It will be carried on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., but, it is > complicated > >and not very profitable to carry it on these dealers. Are there specific > >places which I should contact to see if they will stock the book? > > > >I decided to keep the price as low as possible ($12.95) and in paperback to > >allow most people to be able to afford it. [I am used to not making much > >profit-- I run a not-for-profit community mental health center}] I really > >believe that Campbell has a lot to say to people today. > > > >Anyway, I would appreciate any ideas from the readers. > > > >Thanks, > > > > Steve [huss931@aol.com] > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 14 Jan 2000 21:29:27 -0800 Turns out I misspelled it - it's "whattheheckisthat - not whattheheckisthis. And. . . for some reason it is not responding today. I have a call in to see why not. News at eleven. . . . -----Original Message----- >Bill, >Your web site don't compute.......http://www:whattheheckisthis >John Funk > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Cunningham >To: >Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 2:52 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book > > >> Go to http://www:whattheheckisthis? They will list the book for nothing >and >> charge you nothing for those that sell. A real change from the 50 to 55% >> distributors charge or the 25 to 40 % bookstores get. >> Congratulations on finishing what must have been a lengthy process. >> >> Bill Cunningham >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Huss931@aol.com >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:28 PM >> Subject: MtMan-List: mountain man book >> >> >> >Hello to those who are interested in the mountain man. >> > >> >I need some advise. After years of research on the American mountain >man >> >and work on my Ph.D., I wrote a dissertation on Robert Campbell. Over >the >> >past years, new letters from him to his wife and other have been found. >I >> >decided to add these and convert the book to a more readable novel. I >kept >> >his actual words as much as possible and stayed true to his real nature. >> >This man was honorable. >> > >> >The book will be published in late January-- Irish Mountain Man, The >Story >> of >> >Robert Campbell. I want to get a wide distribution and believe that >people >> >who are interested in this time and life style would find it interesting >> and >> >of value to their understanding of the nature of a person who was a close >> >friend of Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and partner of Bill Sublette. >> > >> >Does anyone have any ideas? I have thought of creating a web page >> >[Irishmountainman.com] and trying to get people to go there and order >from >> >the Prism Distributing Company which will distribute the book for me. I >> have >> >been invited to Ireland to sign copies at the Irish-American Folk Park >> where >> >Campbell's ancestral home has been restored. I am thinking about going >to >> >several rendezvous. >> > >> >It will be carried on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., but, it is >> complicated >> >and not very profitable to carry it on these dealers. Are there specific >> >places which I should contact to see if they will stock the book? >> > >> >I decided to keep the price as low as possible ($12.95) and in paperback >to >> >allow most people to be able to afford it. [I am used to not making much >> >profit-- I run a not-for-profit community mental health center}] I really >> >believe that Campbell has a lot to say to people today. >> > >> >Anyway, I would appreciate any ideas from the readers. >> > >> >Thanks, >> > >> > Steve [huss931@aol.com] >> > >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 14 Jan 2000 21:39:56 -0800 It's up now. If it doesn't light up for you, go to your search engine and type in whattheheckisthat - Snap and Dogpile both do it for me. Bill C -----Original Message----- >Bill, >Your web site don't compute.......http://www:whattheheckisthis >John Funk > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Cunningham >To: >Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 2:52 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book > > >> Go to http://www:whattheheckisthis? They will list the book for nothing >and >> charge you nothing for those that sell. A real change from the 50 to 55% >> distributors charge or the 25 to 40 % bookstores get. >> Congratulations on finishing what must have been a lengthy process. >> >> Bill Cunningham >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Huss931@aol.com >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:28 PM >> Subject: MtMan-List: mountain man book >> >> >> >Hello to those who are interested in the mountain man. >> > >> >I need some advise. After years of research on the American mountain >man >> >and work on my Ph.D., I wrote a dissertation on Robert Campbell. Over >the >> >past years, new letters from him to his wife and other have been found. >I >> >decided to add these and convert the book to a more readable novel. I >kept >> >his actual words as much as possible and stayed true to his real nature. >> >This man was honorable. >> > >> >The book will be published in late January-- Irish Mountain Man, The >Story >> of >> >Robert Campbell. I want to get a wide distribution and believe that >people >> >who are interested in this time and life style would find it interesting >> and >> >of value to their understanding of the nature of a person who was a close >> >friend of Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and partner of Bill Sublette. >> > >> >Does anyone have any ideas? I have thought of creating a web page >> >[Irishmountainman.com] and trying to get people to go there and order >from >> >the Prism Distributing Company which will distribute the book for me. I >> have >> >been invited to Ireland to sign copies at the Irish-American Folk Park >> where >> >Campbell's ancestral home has been restored. I am thinking about going >to >> >several rendezvous. >> > >> >It will be carried on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., but, it is >> complicated >> >and not very profitable to carry it on these dealers. Are there specific >> >places which I should contact to see if they will stock the book? >> > >> >I decided to keep the price as low as possible ($12.95) and in paperback >to >> >allow most people to be able to afford it. [I am used to not making much >> >profit-- I run a not-for-profit community mental health center}] I really >> >believe that Campbell has a lot to say to people today. >> > >> >Anyway, I would appreciate any ideas from the readers. >> > >> >Thanks, >> > >> > Steve [huss931@aol.com] >> > >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: http://www.whattheheckisthat.com Date: 14 Jan 2000 23:07:10 -0600 You gotsta watch your punctuation...I was going to say...you gotta watch your colon, but decided not to. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping in Alaska Date: 15 Jan 2000 08:17:05 -0600 -----Original Message----- >Mackenzie, who worked for the North West Company, went down the Mackenzie >River to its mouth in the Arctic Ocean in 1789. In 1793, he went west from >Peace River, Alberta to Bella Coola, B.C (on the Pacific Ocean, 13 years >before Lewis & Clark). He was knighted for this feat. I'm pretty sure that >neither route entered what is now Alaska. Quite an adventure they had on that trip in 1793. I read about the details of this trip, in what book I don't even remember, when I was just a kid. I think this story more than any other got me interested in canoeing and trying to follow some of the routes taken by these early explorers. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: Hallo! Date: 14 Jan 2000 15:15:04 -0500 george I talk "hillbillian" Northwestern Arkansas---just east of indian country GBG---HA HA "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: Hallo! Date: 15 Jan 2000 08:51:38 -0800 (PST) I guess you talk itbut not write it , hunh ? My Wife if from Colcord, OK. (LAPLAND)Where Arkansas laps over into Oklahoma. Not far from Siloam Springs AR. Her brother, Billy Mitchell has an Electric Motor repair shop there. I lived in Tulsa, but grew up at my grandparents, Aunt and Uncles, in the same region. Summers as long as my parents would let me stay away from Tulsa. grn Thanks for the reply !!!! --- hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > george I talk "hillbillian" Northwestern > Arkansas---just east of indian > country > GBG---HA HA > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: > 1-727-771-1815 > e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE > software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: SORRY LIST !!! Date: 15 Jan 2000 08:55:18 -0800 (PST) I was going to hit HAWK with that last one off list, hit send beforI changed address grn ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Verlin Kinsey" Subject: MtMan-List: Heavy Barrell Date: 15 Jan 2000 19:49:22 -0600 Yesterday I had to go to the library and next door is the local historical society museum. There was about 20 minutes until they closed for the day but since it had been a while I decided to go in and see what was on display. One room was devoted to old quilts, one room to old tools and medical equipment and the final room, a small one, had about a dozen rifles on display. The one that caught my eye was one they have listed as a buffalo rifle. It is a half stock, hooked breech, .60 caliber with a 1 7/16" barrel approximately 30". It has a Hawken style breech and from what I could see, very deep grooves. It was too high for me to see if it had a makers mark on it. The curator said it weighed about 23-25 pounds. Since they were about to close I talked to the curator and he said they would have that display up for about another 6 weeks and if I came back and they weren't too busy he would let me photograph it. Was this size of barrel common or would it have been special made for large charges used on buffalo? Just wondering, Sparky >From the Flint Hills of Kansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: Hallo! Date: 16 Jan 2000 07:23:58 -0800 Hi there I now them ther words of hillbilly caus i am from ther ya no. born in Baxter Springs ks just north of miami ok, ya no. been thur them wood several times chasin girls and be chased by dadies ya no. 3 strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: Hallo! Date: 16 Jan 2000 07:26:02 -0800 I am from that neck of the woods except I live in the northwest now. home town Baxter Springs Ks just over the border from Miami ok 3 strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: Hallo! Date: 16 Jan 2000 09:08:03 -0800 (PST) YA Kan-sans and Arkies still AFeread of comin ta injan Terrotorie, US Okies made it and satied. --- Wayne & Terri wrote: > I am from that neck of the woods except I live in > the northwest now. home > town Baxter Springs Ks just over the border from > Miami ok > > 3 strings > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: Hallo! Date: 16 Jan 2000 14:27:31 -0500 On Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:08:03 -0800 (PST) George Noe writes: > YA Kan-sans and Arkies still AFeread of comin ta > injan Terrotorie, US Okies made it and satied. dont be slam dunking those boys I still have family in indian territory---and probably a few richous friendlies running there also --- them were shining times--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Pickert Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Moccasin Meet 2000 - RSVP Date: 16 Jan 2000 14:15:43 -0800 (PST) --0-1957747793-948060943=:5665 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Here is some infor someone on the list might like! Note: forwarded message attached. ===== Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com --0-1957747793-948060943=:5665 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Apparently-To: walksinthenight@yahoo.com via mdd203.mail.yahoo.com X-Track2: 2 X-Track: -50 Received: from m5.boston.juno.com (205.231.100.197) by mta219.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2000 01:29:39 -0000 Received: "o8bUjgEt4V8dN8Ahzj+op6KlwFpnwG1rdABx49f/7PT+VXSjLbU39w==" Received: (from mocmeet@juno.com) by m5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EWEU5B4W; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:29:28 EST Message-ID: <20000115.203156.-327457.3.mocmeet@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4,9-11,17-18,24-25,30-31,38-39,43-48,51-53,56-57 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Content-Length: 2815 Rick, Happy New Year. Our Moccasin Meet 2000 packets are currently being printed. The website will be entirely updated shortly as well. Plans are in the making for even more exciting workshops than last year. This year's dates are July 16-22. The following is an exerpt from the information packet. Get back to me ASAP for the additional savings, and certainly with any questions. If you or someone you know isn't able to come to the Meet but would like to help in this way anyway it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. *** We (the hosts of Moccasin Meet) are partnered with a Mohawk community near here that is working to build a school to restore the language and culture, and a company called Excel/Teleglobe. This partnership allows us to raise funds from bonuses and commissions received from internet commerce, internet service, paging and long-distance services used by the customers we gather. Should you choose to use these services in support of us, we in turn, will grant you a $15 discount, per product used, toward your Moccasin Meet registration. Use of the 7cents/min. long-distance and internet would then result in a $30 discount. For additional discount call by January 30. Become a representative in our fundraising team and earn a free Dell computer. (Qualify now for your savings and register later.) This is a way that, not only, can you save on your phone bills, but also know that year around funds are going to support something that you believe in. However, this discount can only be available to persons who enroll through us, or another representative in our fundraising program. Participation as a customer will be verified. Excel/Teleglobe is an international company, which is the fourth largest long-distance provider in the U.S., and hosts the largest internet backbone in the world. They were the first to offer 7 cents/min. long- distance and now 3 cents/min. Recently the opening of the online store, which features over 1 million items, is making a mark in history. Excel/Teleglobe is a company of strong ethics and values and we are proud to be associated with them. If you have internet access please see our personal company website for company, product, online store, and service details. You may enroll via the secure connection on this site, otherwise, please call us for further information. http://www.excelir.com/weg or (518) 875-6886 (in NY) or 1-888-272-6889 (outside NY) Sincerely, Eva P.S. If you are not sure that we have your snail mail address and you would like a printed information booklet, please get back to me with that. Thanks. Moccasin Meet is a Northeast Primitive Skills Gathering held each July in upstate NY. Next year's dates are July 16-22, 2000. CHECK OUT OUR WEBSITE - http://sites.netscape.net/moccasinmeet/index.html --0-1957747793-948060943=:5665-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Wet Steel Date: 16 Jan 2000 04:48:47 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0145_01BF5FDC.F985C2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not to long ago I asked everyone how they carried there fire makins. I = guess it was no surprise that their was a lot of different types of = tinder and char being used (Some I did not even recognize). Likewise, it = was no surprise that everyone wanted to keep these two items dry, but it = did surprise me that everyone appeared to keep the flint and steel as = dry as possible also. I had expected some would be carrying their steel = tied on or loose in a bag and the same with the flint and keeping tinder = and char in tin thus removing much chance of annoying rattles = (especially after using the tinder and char to light a fire, thus = reducing the amount of cushion).=20 This got my curiosity up so tonight I dropped flint and steel in a glass = of water. Then started the fireplace fire with it. Of course my = experiment is not very controlled or exhaustive but I found that they = still made a fine spark. However, I had a devil of a time getting the = spark to stick on the char cloth. On other occasions using the same = combinations it has not been a problem. Does anyone have a specific reason for keeping the flint and steel dry? = Or an insight into why I got these results? ------=_NextPart_000_0145_01BF5FDC.F985C2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Not to long ago I asked everyone how they carried there fire makins. = I guess=20 it was no surprise that their was a lot of different types of tinder and = char=20 being used (Some I did not even recognize). Likewise, it was no surprise = that=20 everyone wanted to keep these two items dry, but it did surprise me that = everyone appeared to keep the flint and steel as dry as possible also. I = had=20 expected some would be carrying their steel tied on or loose in a bag = and the=20 same with the flint and keeping tinder and char in tin thus removing = much chance=20 of annoying rattles (especially after using the tinder and char to light = a fire,=20 thus reducing the amount of cushion).

This got my curiosity up so tonight I dropped flint and steel in a = glass of=20 water. Then started the fireplace fire with it. Of course my experiment = is not=20 very controlled or exhaustive but I found that they still made a fine = spark.=20 However, I had a devil of a time getting the spark to stick on the char = cloth.=20 On other occasions using the same combinations it has not been a = problem.

Does anyone have a specific reason for keeping the flint and steel = dry? Or an=20 insight into why I got these results?

------=_NextPart_000_0145_01BF5FDC.F985C2C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet Steel Date: 16 Jan 2000 16:57:31 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF6042.C6FC6140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I try to keep my stuff dry to avoid rust. I think the oxidation of the = steel makes the spark not as hot. The spark from a clean steel will be = hotter than a spark from a dirty or rusty steel. Ron *************************************** cstmzd@ida.net FREE DSL Service..no more ISP's!! http://in.winfire.com/s/isapiEng.dll/wf.exe?cmd=3Drl&452,20004843&wf.exe Get $20 for Free https://preview.x.com/new_account.asp?Referrer=3Dreferralsplus@homepage.c= om ****************************************** ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 4:48 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Wet Steel Not to long ago I asked everyone how they carried there fire makins. I = guess it was no surprise that their was a lot of different types of = tinder and char being used (Some I did not even recognize). Likewise, it = was no surprise that everyone wanted to keep these two items dry, but it = did surprise me that everyone appeared to keep the flint and steel as = dry as possible also. I had expected some would be carrying their steel = tied on or loose in a bag and the same with the flint and keeping tinder = and char in tin thus removing much chance of annoying rattles = (especially after using the tinder and char to light a fire, thus = reducing the amount of cushion).=20 This got my curiosity up so tonight I dropped flint and steel in a = glass of water. Then started the fireplace fire with it. Of course my = experiment is not very controlled or exhaustive but I found that they = still made a fine spark. However, I had a devil of a time getting the = spark to stick on the char cloth. On other occasions using the same = combinations it has not been a problem. Does anyone have a specific reason for keeping the flint and steel = dry? Or an insight into why I got these results? ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF6042.C6FC6140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I try to keep my stuff dry to avoid rust. I think = the=20 oxidation of the steel makes the spark not as hot. The spark from a = clean steel=20 will be hotter than a spark from a dirty or rusty steel.
 
Ron
***************************************
cstmzd@ida.net
 
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******************************************
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wynn &=20 Gretchen Ormond
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 = 4:48=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Wet = Steel

Not to long ago I asked everyone how they carried there fire = makins. I=20 guess it was no surprise that their was a lot of different types of = tinder and=20 char being used (Some I did not even recognize). Likewise, it was no = surprise=20 that everyone wanted to keep these two items dry, but it did surprise = me that=20 everyone appeared to keep the flint and steel as dry as possible also. = I had=20 expected some would be carrying their steel tied on or loose in a bag = and the=20 same with the flint and keeping tinder and char in tin thus removing = much=20 chance of annoying rattles (especially after using the tinder and char = to=20 light a fire, thus reducing the amount of cushion).

This got my curiosity up so tonight I dropped flint and steel in a = glass of=20 water. Then started the fireplace fire with it. Of course my = experiment is not=20 very controlled or exhaustive but I found that they still made a fine = spark.=20 However, I had a devil of a time getting the spark to stick on the = char cloth.=20 On other occasions using the same combinations it has not been a = problem.

Does anyone have a specific reason for keeping the flint and steel = dry? Or=20 an insight into why I got these results?

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF6042.C6FC6140-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: poem author unknown Date: 16 Jan 2000 19:37:09 -0600 I'm tired of the rustle and hustle, I'm sick of the racket and din, I want to cut loose from the bustle, Go out where the rivers begin, I long to get up in the open, 'mongst the cedar and tall tamarack; I want to make camp on a lake shore; In an old tumble-down lumber shack. I'm tired of the pomp and the grandeur, I'm sick of the falseness and bluff; I want to get up where the country is virgin and wooded and rouph. I long to awake in the morning, And pull on an old flannel shirt, And courduroy pants that are mended And moccasins covered with dirt. I care not a cuss where the place is, Nor how far away it may be, So long as it's up in the open Where I can unleash and be free. Where the odor of cedar and hemlock Will greet me whene'er I awake, And the moon casts its shadows at nightfall Of the pine on the wind-rippled lake. Just give me a pipe and tobacco, Some coffee and bacon , and then Turn me foot-loose away in the forest, Far of from the pathways of men....." Cabin fever? thisw ain't to far away: http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/coppercountry.JPG northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: poem author unknown Date: 16 Jan 2000 20:39:58 -0600 R. W. Service, most likely ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet Steel Date: 17 Jan 2000 09:04:53 -0600 I was in two fire starting comps last year, at Grand Portage up had to drop you flint and steel in a bucket before lighting your fire, at Pine City (MN) you had to put your whole firekit in the bucket for about 5 minutes with your flint and steel in it. Was entertaining, most people wipped off their tools once retrieved, wet hands are almost a worse problem especially when handling char cloth. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: funny link! Date: 17 Jan 2000 10:37:03 CST Hi all, I found this site last night. It is very funny but, you have to have a sound card. It is: http://www.hampsterdance.com I hope you all have a good day. There's another thing, I just started new classes Thursday(yes I'm a High School student) and in my first class, AP US History(a college course), we were having a disscussion on why Europeans came to the Americas. I said that they some of them came for furs and they all laughed even though I know it's absolutly true. How can I make them see the light? Matt Porter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: MtMan-List: Colonial emmigration.... Date: 17 Jan 2000 12:24:17 -0600 > History(a college course), we were having a disscussion on why Europeans > came to the Americas. I said that they some of them came for furs and they > all laughed even though I know it's absolutly true. How can I make them see > the light? with documentation... the only way to prove to a skeptic... by and large, though the primary reasons that Europeans came to this country were either for religious freedom or economic reasons. I think that is the point your teacher was making, the majority, not the minority. If you look the first settlements in the northeast were religion based, in the south, ecoomic based... or they were crown colonies. [Mobile, new orleans, charlestowne - st. augustine] anne macdonnald a 13th generation south carolinian ps...please to note, I am refering to the original colonies...not the later emigrations, like say post Culloden, or the Irish famines... I am refering to pre 1750. Okay, I know the date for Culloden, but I am still not talking about that particular group. grins.... was not Montreal de Quebec a initally a crown colony as well, I forget... souther history is more my realm, that and southern architecture actually. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Union Trading Post Date: 17 Jan 2000 09:58:18 -0700 Hello to this list. Does anyone have the traders list for Fort Union 1828 or 1836? I am particularly interested in these 2 periods of time for Fort Union Trading Post. I am on another list but it is limited to Muzzleloading and is not set up to handle related conversation on topical conversations such as Fort Union-1828. I have already gotten in trouble talking about the buffalo but this list rules seem to permit me to explore this. I am aware of the webpages regarding Fort Union and I have recently returned from Fort Union where I examined beads that came out of the ground when they were rebuilding Fort Union on the actual location. I am thankful for any help I receive. Glad to find this campfire and hope it shed a little light my way. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Robert Campbell Date: 17 Jan 2000 12:12:37 EST They are different people. I had the same confusion when I started my research years ago. Robert Campble of the Sublette and Campbell Co. centered his activity in the Rocky Mountains, Sante Fe, and St. Louis. Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: funny link! Date: 17 Jan 2000 12:29:49 EST Hi,, Congratulations on getting into the AP History class. I teach American History in a local college and really feel fortunate when students have a good background in American History. Also, you are correct about Europeans coming for furs. In both my Masters In History and my PhD in American Studies I researched this in great depth. Among the findings were: 1. The French primarily came for this reason. 2. But, the others (except Spain) used furs as a supplement to their attempt to make money from the new world. 3. You will soon study the Navigation Acts of England in Colonial America. One of the major restrictions was on "hats." Colonials were not allowed to have a hat industry. The "best" hats were made of beaver. The term "high hat" applied to an aristocrat comes from the tall hats which, of course, needed more beaver fur and thus cost much more. The restrictions meant that there was a great demand for fur in England. This is proof of the value of the fur trade and the demand in Europe. 4. Also, the Leipzig Fur markets during the Colonial period demanded much fur and encouraged those in the New World to harvest furs of all kinds. I hope this helps your classmates understand that you really are correct. Good luck. Stephen Huss, Ph.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David R Anderson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 15 Jan 2000 09:45:59 -0600 Still not working today, Bill. Dookiebear On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:29:27 -0800 bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) writes: >Turns out I misspelled it - it's "whattheheckisthat - not >whattheheckisthis. And. . . for some reason it is not responding >today. I >have a call in to see why not. News at eleven. . . . >-----Original Message----- >From: John C. Funk, Jr. >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 7:27 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book > > >>Bill, >>Your web site don't compute.......http://www:whattheheckisthis >>John Funk >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Bill Cunningham >>To: >>Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 2:52 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book >> >> >>> Go to http://www:whattheheckisthis? They will list the book for >nothing >>and >>> charge you nothing for those that sell. A real change from the 50 >to 55% >>> distributors charge or the 25 to 40 % bookstores get. >>> Congratulations on finishing what must have been a lengthy process. >>> >>> Bill Cunningham >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Huss931@aol.com >>> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>> Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:28 PM >>> Subject: MtMan-List: mountain man book >>> >>> >>> >Hello to those who are interested in the mountain man. >>> > >>> >I need some advise. After years of research on the American >mountain >>man >>> >and work on my Ph.D., I wrote a dissertation on Robert Campbell. >Over >>the >>> >past years, new letters from him to his wife and other have been >found. >>I >>> >decided to add these and convert the book to a more readable >novel. I >>kept >>> >his actual words as much as possible and stayed true to his real >nature. >>> >This man was honorable. >>> > >>> >The book will be published in late January-- Irish Mountain Man, >The >>Story >>> of >>> >Robert Campbell. I want to get a wide distribution and believe >that >>people >>> >who are interested in this time and life style would find it >interesting >>> and >>> >of value to their understanding of the nature of a person who was >a >close >>> >friend of Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and partner of Bill Sublette. >>> > >>> >Does anyone have any ideas? I have thought of creating a web page >>> >[Irishmountainman.com] and trying to get people to go there and >order >>from >>> >the Prism Distributing Company which will distribute the book for >me. I >>> have >>> >been invited to Ireland to sign copies at the Irish-American Folk >Park >>> where >>> >Campbell's ancestral home has been restored. I am thinking about >going >>to >>> >several rendezvous. >>> > >>> >It will be carried on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., but, it is >>> complicated >>> >and not very profitable to carry it on these dealers. Are there >specific >>> >places which I should contact to see if they will stock the book? >>> > >>> >I decided to keep the price as low as possible ($12.95) and in >paperback >>to >>> >allow most people to be able to afford it. [I am used to not >making >much >>> >profit-- I run a not-for-profit community mental health center}] I >really >>> >believe that Campbell has a lot to say to people today. >>> > >>> >Anyway, I would appreciate any ideas from the readers. >>> > >>> >Thanks, >>> > >>> > Steve [huss931@aol.com] >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >---------------------- >>> >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> ---------------------- >>> hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >>> >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 17 Jan 2000 12:21:41 -0800 Damn! It's working for me. Go to Dogpile, type in www.whattheheckisthat and see how it goes. Bill -----Original Message----- >Still not working today, Bill. >Dookiebear >On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:29:27 -0800 bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) >writes: >>Turns out I misspelled it - it's "whattheheckisthat - not >>whattheheckisthis. And. . . for some reason it is not responding >>today. I >>have a call in to see why not. News at eleven. . . . >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John C. Funk, Jr. >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 7:27 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book >> >> >>>Bill, >>>Your web site don't compute.......http://www:whattheheckisthis >>>John Funk >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: Bill Cunningham >>>To: >>>Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 2:52 PM >>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book >>> >>> >>>> Go to http://www:whattheheckisthis? They will list the book for >>nothing >>>and >>>> charge you nothing for those that sell. A real change from the 50 >>to 55% >>>> distributors charge or the 25 to 40 % bookstores get. >>>> Congratulations on finishing what must have been a lengthy process. >>>> >>>> Bill Cunningham >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Huss931@aol.com >>>> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>>> Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:28 PM >>>> Subject: MtMan-List: mountain man book >>>> >>>> >>>> >Hello to those who are interested in the mountain man. >>>> > >>>> >I need some advise. After years of research on the American >>mountain >>>man >>>> >and work on my Ph.D., I wrote a dissertation on Robert Campbell. >>Over >>>the >>>> >past years, new letters from him to his wife and other have been >>found. >>>I >>>> >decided to add these and convert the book to a more readable >>novel. I >>>kept >>>> >his actual words as much as possible and stayed true to his real >>nature. >>>> >This man was honorable. >>>> > >>>> >The book will be published in late January-- Irish Mountain Man, >>The >>>Story >>>> of >>>> >Robert Campbell. I want to get a wide distribution and believe >>that >>>people >>>> >who are interested in this time and life style would find it >>interesting >>>> and >>>> >of value to their understanding of the nature of a person who was >>a >>close >>>> >friend of Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and partner of Bill Sublette. >>>> > >>>> >Does anyone have any ideas? I have thought of creating a web page >>>> >[Irishmountainman.com] and trying to get people to go there and >>order >>>from >>>> >the Prism Distributing Company which will distribute the book for >>me. I >>>> have >>>> >been invited to Ireland to sign copies at the Irish-American Folk >>Park >>>> where >>>> >Campbell's ancestral home has been restored. I am thinking about >>going >>>to >>>> >several rendezvous. >>>> > >>>> >It will be carried on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., but, it is >>>> complicated >>>> >and not very profitable to carry it on these dealers. Are there >>specific >>>> >places which I should contact to see if they will stock the book? >>>> > >>>> >I decided to keep the price as low as possible ($12.95) and in >>paperback >>>to >>>> >allow most people to be able to afford it. [I am used to not >>making >>much >>>> >profit-- I run a not-for-profit community mental health center}] I >>really >>>> >believe that Campbell has a lot to say to people today. >>>> > >>>> >Anyway, I would appreciate any ideas from the readers. >>>> > >>>> >Thanks, >>>> > >>>> > Steve [huss931@aol.com] >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >---------------------- >>>> >hist_text list info: >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------- >>>> hist_text list info: >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >>>> >>> >>> >>>---------------------- >>>hist_text list info: >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pavel Grund" Subject: MtMan-List: RE:RE: Hallo! Date: 17 Jan 2000 20:47:46 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01BF612C.1BBA1B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank all , who reply to my message. Up to direct address I answer in = sequence as shall I can. Excuse me, please, for my terrible English. = Translations are cause hold-up. Thank you for your friendly interest. = Peggy ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01BF612C.1BBA1B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank all , who reply to  my = message. Up=20 to direct address I answer in sequence as shall I can. Excuse me, = please, =20 for my terrible English. Translations are cause  hold-up.  = Thank you=20 for your friendly interest. Peggy
------=_NextPart_000_006D_01BF612C.1BBA1B20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Any activity....... Date: 17 Jan 2000 15:19:23 EST Has there been any activity on the list in the last several weeks. I seem have received a couple of spotty responses to threads, but have not received the individual emails which generated the thread. It would seem things are being posted but that I am out of the loop. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book Date: 17 Jan 2000 17:00:16 -0700 http://www.whattheheckisthat.com/ Whattheheckisthat You have to put the " .com " after it!!! Ron *************************************** cstmzd@ida.net FREE DSL Service..no more ISP's!! http://in.winfire.com/s/isapiEng.dll/wf.exe?cmd=rl&452,20004843&wf.exe Get $20 for Free https://preview.x.com/new_account.asp?Referrer=referralsplus@homepage.com ****************************************** ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 1:21 PM > Damn! It's working for me. Go to Dogpile, type in www.whattheheckisthat and > see how it goes. > Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: David R Anderson > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Monday, January 17, 2000 10:56 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book > > > >Still not working today, Bill. > >Dookiebear > >On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:29:27 -0800 bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) > >writes: > >>Turns out I misspelled it - it's "whattheheckisthat - not > >>whattheheckisthis. And. . . for some reason it is not responding > >>today. I > >>have a call in to see why not. News at eleven. . . . > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: John C. Funk, Jr. > >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >>Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 7:27 PM > >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book > >> > >> > >>>Bill, > >>>Your web site don't compute.......http://www:whattheheckisthis > >>>John Funk > >>> > >>> > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: Bill Cunningham > >>>To: > >>>Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 2:52 PM > >>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man book > >>> > >>> > >>>> Go to http://www:whattheheckisthis? They will list the book for > >>nothing > >>>and > >>>> charge you nothing for those that sell. A real change from the 50 > >>to 55% > >>>> distributors charge or the 25 to 40 % bookstores get. > >>>> Congratulations on finishing what must have been a lengthy process. > >>>> > >>>> Bill Cunningham > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Huss931@aol.com > >>>> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >>>> Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:28 PM > >>>> Subject: MtMan-List: mountain man book > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >Hello to those who are interested in the mountain man. > >>>> > > >>>> >I need some advise. After years of research on the American > >>mountain > >>>man > >>>> >and work on my Ph.D., I wrote a dissertation on Robert Campbell. > >>Over > >>>the > >>>> >past years, new letters from him to his wife and other have been > >>found. > >>>I > >>>> >decided to add these and convert the book to a more readable > >>novel. I > >>>kept > >>>> >his actual words as much as possible and stayed true to his real > >>nature. > >>>> >This man was honorable. > >>>> > > >>>> >The book will be published in late January-- Irish Mountain Man, > >>The > >>>Story > >>>> of > >>>> >Robert Campbell. I want to get a wide distribution and believe > >>that > >>>people > >>>> >who are interested in this time and life style would find it > >>interesting > >>>> and > >>>> >of value to their understanding of the nature of a person who was > >>a > >>close > >>>> >friend of Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and partner of Bill Sublette. > >>>> > > >>>> >Does anyone have any ideas? I have thought of creating a web page > >>>> >[Irishmountainman.com] and trying to get people to go there and > >>order > >>>from > >>>> >the Prism Distributing Company which will distribute the book for > >>me. I > >>>> have > >>>> >been invited to Ireland to sign copies at the Irish-American Folk > >>Park > >>>> where > >>>> >Campbell's ancestral home has been restored. I am thinking about > >>going > >>>to > >>>> >several rendezvous. > >>>> > > >>>> >It will be carried on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc., but, it is > >>>> complicated > >>>> >and not very profitable to carry it on these dealers. Are there > >>specific > >>>> >places which I should contact to see if they will stock the book? > >>>> > > >>>> >I decided to keep the price as low as possible ($12.95) and in > >>paperback > >>>to > >>>> >allow most people to be able to afford it. [I am used to not > >>making > >>much > >>>> >profit-- I run a not-for-profit community mental health center}] I > >>really > >>>> >believe that Campbell has a lot to say to people today. > >>>> > > >>>> >Anyway, I would appreciate any ideas from the readers. > >>>> > > >>>> >Thanks, > >>>> > > >>>> > Steve [huss931@aol.com] > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> >---------------------- > >>>> >hist_text list info: > >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------- > >>>> hist_text list info: > >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>---------------------- > >>>hist_text list info: > >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > >> > >>---------------------- > >>hist_text list info: > >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >________________________________________________________________ > >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Any activity.......TOF Date: 17 Jan 2000 17:33:48 -0700 Hello TOF, I posted to this MtMan List for the first time yesterday. Have you seen my post? 2badger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Any activity.......TOF Date: 17 Jan 2000 18:41:26 -0600 Yes Walt, your coming in loud and clear. Haven't got the specific info. your looking for, but I did get a chance to stop in at Ft. Union this summer and look around. Neat place they say that at one time this was the largest operating Ft. there was. Even bigger than Bent's. Your looking for the traders list for 1828? Isn't that the year the fort was built? northwoods -----Original Message----- >Hello TOF, I posted to this MtMan List for the first time yesterday. Have >you seen my post? >2badger > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE:RE: Hallo! Date: 17 Jan 2000 20:07:40 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF6126.81DD9FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your English is good enough....better than some of ours. It is = certainly than our ability to speak Czech. Congratulations on your = efforts and keep up the good work. We all stand ready to help you in = any way possible or to answer your questions. Lanney Ratcliff Cleburne, Texas rat@htcomp.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Pavel Grund=20 To: ve=F8ejn=E1 konference US MM=20 Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 1:47 PM Subject: MtMan-List: RE:RE: Hallo! Thank all , who reply to my message. Up to direct address I answer in = sequence as shall I can. Excuse me, please, for my terrible English. = Translations are cause hold-up. Thank you for your friendly interest. = Peggy ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF6126.81DD9FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Your English is good enough....better than some of ours.  It = is=20 certainly than our ability to speak Czech.  Congratulations on your = efforts=20 and keep up the good work.   We all stand ready to help you in = any way=20 possible or to answer your questions.
Lanney Ratcliff
Cleburne, Texas
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Pavel = Grund=20
To: ve=F8ejn=E1=20 konference US MM
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 = 1:47=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: RE:RE: = Hallo!

Thank all , who reply to  = my message.=20 Up to direct address I answer in sequence as shall I can. Excuse me,=20 please,  for my terrible English. Translations are cause =20 hold-up.  Thank you for your friendly interest.=20 Peggy
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF6126.81DD9FE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Any activity.......TOF Date: 17 Jan 2000 19:14:03 -0700 Your looking for the > traders list for 1828? Isn't that the year the fort was built?> northwoods Yes Sir, That was the year The fort Union Trading Post was constructed by the American Fur Company. I am looking for their opening trade list. 2badger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trade list fort union Date: 17 Jan 2000 19:25:44 -0700 Have been advised that another 2badger exhist on list. Will revert to badgerhole. Does anyone have any information regarding the trade list for fort union 1828? Badgerhole Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Union Trading Post Date: 17 Jan 2000 20:33:36 -0600 http://www.google.com/ Walt Go to "Google"....a superior search engine.....and initiate a search for = Fort+Union+Trading+Post. I got 6770 hits. Maybe one of them will help = you. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 10:58 AM > Hello to this list. Does anyone have the traders list for Fort Union = 1828 > or 1836? I am particularly interested in these 2 periods of time for = Fort > Union Trading Post. >=20 > I am on another list but it is limited to Muzzleloading and is not set = up to > handle related conversation on topical conversations such as Fort > Union-1828. I have already gotten in trouble talking about the = buffalo but > this list rules seem to permit me to explore this. >=20 > I am aware of the webpages regarding Fort Union and I have recently = returned > from Fort Union where I examined beads that came out of the ground = when they > were rebuilding Fort Union on the actual location. >=20 > I am thankful for any help I receive. Glad to find this campfire and = hope > it shed a little light my way. >=20 > Walt > Park City, Montana >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Blacks in the Fur Trade Date: 17 Jan 2000 22:25:12 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF6139.B8601D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think I remember someone asking for information about black people in = the fur trade and/or westward expansion. Some interesting information = can be found at: http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/furtrade.htm Be sure to click on the web page at the end. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF6139.B8601D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think I remember someone asking for information about black = people=20 in the fur trade and/or westward expansion.  Some interesting = information=20 can be found at:
http://www.coax.net/= people/lwf/furtrade.htm
Be sure to click on the web page at the end.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF6139.B8601D00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Union Trading Post Date: 17 Jan 2000 22:10:38 -0700 I have been through the overview of the websearch for fort union Lanney. I have been unable to find the 1828 list of trading materials for that year. Thanks, badgerhole. and initiate a search for Fort+Union+Trading+Post. I got 6770 hits. Maybe one of them will help you.YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Moccs and such... Date: 18 Jan 2000 01:07:04 -0800 (PST) Well..... The inserts are cut and sewn, and the bottom halfs of the elk hide moccs are cut, and the right one sewn..... me good wrist is wore out punching the awl through, so I figgered I'd sit and type for a spell... Not the prettiest looking moccs... in fact, by the time I stuff the blanket liner, a thick pair of wool socks, and my fat feet into them, they come pretty close to looking like something Micky Mouse might be proud to wear. I don't think Sorrell boot company will be knocking on my door to have me make their winter boots anytime soon. The baseball stitch worked well to minimize the welt. I used a doubled glovers stitch on the leather to try and keep the seams as tight as possible. Had to go back after the fact and widen the ankle hole, as the combination of liner, sock and ankle were way too tight. Ah well, at least I have a pattern for when I finish that elk hide tanning project this spring. They are warm, five minutes in the house and I had to take them off as my feet were sweating profusely... will take them for a horse ride over the mountain in the next week or so and see how long they keep me delicate footsies comfortable. Should be interesting wearing spurs with them, if not comfortable. And yer wrong Capt..... You said my feet wouldna stay dry in them.... I wore them all over my livingroom and my feet never got wet once! Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Union Trading Post Date: 18 Jan 2000 06:38:34 -0600 Oh well, maybe it will turn up. good luck. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 11:10 PM > I have been through the overview of the websearch for fort union = Lanney. I > have been unable to find the 1828 list of trading materials for that = year. > Thanks, badgerhole. >=20 > and initiate a search for Fort+Union+Trading+Post. I got 6770 hits. = Maybe > one of them will help you.YMOS Lanney Ratcliff >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Winter National Shoot Date: 18 Jan 2000 06:37:00 -0700 (MST) Anyone from this list coming out to PHX for the Winter Shoot next month??? -- Penny Pincher-NMLRA Field Representative In The West Don't Forget the NMLRA Winter National Shoot 2000 February 16-21 2000 @ The Ben Avery Shooting Facility-Phoenix Arizona http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb750171 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Moccs and such... Date: 18 Jan 2000 10:05:07 -0800 Lee Newbill wrote: > And yer wrong Capt..... You said my feet wouldna stay dry in them.... I > wore them all over my livingroom and my feet never got wet once! Lee, Been known to happen. You might consider giving them a lick with some bear grease, etc. to help prevent them from taking up too much moisture on your way up to Winter Camp. Isn't total proof against moisture but it does help a bit. Now all you got to do is make another pair so you have something to wear while the first pair are drying out. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: James Nasmyth makes fire in 1815 Date: 18 Jan 2000 12:05:07 -0700 Hey folks, I thought the flint & steel crowd might find this quote very interesting: "The boys fired off gunpowder, or threw squibs or crackers from morning till night. It was one of the greatest schoolboy events of the year. My little brass cannon and hand-guns were very busy during that day. They were fired until they became quite hot. These were the pre-lucifer days. The fire to light the powder at the touch-hole was obtained by the use of a flint, a steel, and a tinder-box. The flint was struck sharply on the steel; a spark of fire fell into the tinderbox, and the match of hemp string, soaked in saltpetre, was readily lit, and fired off the little guns. .." It is from Nasmyths autobiography. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: MtMan-List: Poison River Party?? Date: 18 Jan 2000 11:59:36 -0700 Well since i had to miss the camp, what kind of fun did the PRP get planned this year? Almost a Pilgrim, Ron *************************************** cstmzd@ida.net FREE DSL Service..no more ISP's!! http://in.winfire.com/s/isapiEng.dll/wf.exe?cmd=rl&452,20004843&wf.exe Get $20 for Free https://preview.x.com/new_account.asp?Referrer=referralsplus@homepage.com ****************************************** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Re; Funny site Date: 18 Jan 2000 11:19:44 -0800 (PST) There is much documentation as to the Russian fur trading experience on the west coast. I hope your instructer is not only concerned with the east coast. It would appear from what I have read that fur was the primary reason for west coast exploration. Hope this helps, Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Re; Hallo Date: 18 Jan 2000 11:22:55 -0800 (PST) Greetings, Peggy, and welcome. I tried to reach you off list, but don't know if you received my message. My son will be in your country this spring, and I would like to have more information for him. Please contact me off list if possible. Thanks, Dog, Gabe's Hole Brigade __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Moccs and such... Date: 18 Jan 2000 10:05:07 -0800 Lee Newbill wrote: > And yer wrong Capt..... You said my feet wouldna stay dry in them.... I > wore them all over my livingroom and my feet never got wet once! Lee, Been known to happen. You might consider giving them a lick with some bear grease, etc. to help prevent them from taking up too much moisture on your way up to Winter Camp. Isn't total proof against moisture but it does help a bit. Now all you got to do is make another pair so you have something to wear while the first pair are drying out. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Moccs and such... Date: 18 Jan 2000 11:51:07 -0800 (PST) I thought he said he had to pullthem off because his feet sweat in them, MOST have Got Wet !!! --- R Lahti wrote: > Lee Newbill wrote: > > > And yer wrong Capt..... You said my feet wouldna > stay dry in them.... I > > wore them all over my livingroom and my feet never > got wet once! > > Lee, > > Been known to happen. You might consider giving > them a lick with > some bear grease, etc. to help prevent them from > taking up too much > moisture on your way up to Winter Camp. Isn't total > proof against > moisture but it does help a bit. Now all you got to > do is make another > pair so you have something to wear while the first > pair are drying out. > I remain.... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: The Great Divide Date: 18 Jan 2000 14:55:42 EST I flew across the Great Divide last week on a trip from my new home in the Pacific Northwest back to the Deep South. I have driven across the Continental Divide many times through South Pass, Idaho, and Colorado, but I have never seen the Rocky Mountains from above. It was clear why they earned their name the Shining Mountains. The deep snow looked like crusty boiled icing clinging to the mountain sides. The silver rivers snaked across the landscape reflecting the bright white light. I swear, even at 37,000 feet, I heard Bridger, Smith, Sublette, Newell, Meek, and Russell. They're still down there. Their voices and their laughter tangled upwards and I heard their merriment. They were gathered around the campfire in their winter camp; telling yarns, reciting Shakespeare, and a tale or two of Swift. I heard them reminiscing about the days when the mountain streams teemed with Ashley beaver, and the Rendezvous of 1838 when a plew was $5.00 a pound. I heard them longing for the spring to come and the summer to follow when the earth would warm again like a willing woman under them. Looking forward to another Rendezvous. Here in late January when it seems the rain will never end and the snow will never melt, I, too, am looking forward to Rendezvous. Looking forward to sharing a fire with those of you who have become steady friends. Until then, I wish you Fair Weather Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Divide Date: 18 Jan 2000 12:12:34 -0800 Ms. Laura Jean, Ah, there you go again lass, sweet talkin us with your pretty words. Winter has it's charm but we'll be none to glad to see the Spring come flowing out of the mountains in a rush of dancing waters. Thank you for the lovely picture. Winter well, dear lady, I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Wind1838@aol.com wrote: > > I flew across the Great Divide last week on a trip from my new home in the Pacific Northwest back to the Deep South. I have driven across the Continental Divide many times through South Pass, Idaho, and Colorado, but I have never seen the Rocky Mountains from above. It was clear why they earned their name the Shining Mountains. The deep snow looked like crusty boiled icing clinging to the mountain sides. The silver rivers snaked across the landscape reflecting the bright white light. > > I swear, even at 37,000 feet, I heard Bridger, Smith, Sublette, Newell, Meek, and Russell. They're still down there. Their voices and their laughter tangled upwards and I heard their merriment. They were gathered around the campfire in their winter camp; telling yarns, reciting Shakespeare, and a tale or two of Swift. I heard them reminiscing about the days when the mountain streams teemed with Ashley beaver, and the Rendezvous of 1838 when a plew was $5.00 a pound. > > I heard them longing for the spring to come and the summer to follow when the earth would warm again like a willing woman under them. Looking forward to another Rendezvous. > > Here in late January when it seems the rain will never end and the snow will never melt, I, too, am looking forward to Rendezvous. Looking forward to sharing a fire with those of you who have become steady friends. > > Until then, I wish you > Fair Weather > Laura Glise > Wind1838@aol.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Divide Date: 18 Jan 2000 15:22:17 -0700 Grand words. Many Thanks. Rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison River Party?? Date: 18 Jan 2000 17:22:48 EST Ron, We missed you at Ft. B., you need to stay out of those potato cellars! We hope you are feeling better now. Funny how those things seem to happen just when we have fun stuff planned, isn't it? The first thing planned is a snowshow/tobaggan trip in Feb. Crazy is getting with a proffesor at Utah to teach snowshoeing and tracking, plus storytelling to a group of students and he thought that we could combine that with a winter camp and make some money for the party at the same time. There is a big push for fund raising since we host the nationals a year from July. Allen is making out the new schedule now, and there are a lot of camps, in fact, too many! There are just too many things that we all want to do! The one that I most look forward to is the ride in to the camas fields to dig and have a camas feast. A new man that we met was in the A.M.M. years ago and he wants to go rabbit hunting with sticks and then have a rabbit roast. Yarrow has plans for a fishing camp to learn how to tye primitive flys, make thorn fishooks and cordage, then see how many fish we can catch. Another 5 day ride is in the planning stages, too. Sounds fun, huh? You ought to become a member this year, Ron There are 2 openings right now, and time's a wastin'! Crazy and JILL ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry derringer Subject: MtMan-List: Camas roots Date: 18 Jan 2000 19:52:34 -0500 Howdy list! Saw this post mention Camas fields & remember readin abt it in Lewis & Clark's books. Can anyone fill me in on this root? can it be planted & grown as a "crop" do they have seeds? Indiana born but mtnman at heart. jd GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > Ron, > We missed you at Ft. B., you need to stay out of those potato > cellars! We hope you are feeling better now. Funny how those things seem to > happen just when we have fun stuff planned, isn't it? The first thing > planned is a snowshow/tobaggan trip in Feb. Crazy is getting with a > proffesor at Utah to teach snowshoeing and tracking, plus storytelling to a > group of students and he thought that we could combine that with a winter > camp and make some money for the party at the same time. There is a big push > for fund raising since we host the nationals a year from July. Allen is > making out the new schedule now, and there are a lot of camps, in fact, too > many! There are just too many things that we all want to do! The one that I > most look forward to is the ride in to the camas fields to dig and have a > camas feast. A new man that we met was in the A.M.M. years ago and he wants > to go rabbit hunting with sticks and then have a rabbit roast. Yarrow has > plans for a fishing camp to learn how to tye primitive flys, make thorn > fishooks and cordage, then see how many fish we can catch. Another 5 day > ride is in the planning stages, too. Sounds fun, huh? You ought to become > a member this year, Ron There are 2 openings right now, and time's a wastin'! > Crazy and JILL > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: RE:RE: Hallo! Date: 18 Jan 2000 19:02:08 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_INwDnAaW3xL+KrMMloaojg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Well said. I figure when I learn to speak 3 or 4 languages like some= of my foreign co-workers, THEN, I'll have room to comment. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Ratcliff Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 8:08 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE:RE: Hallo! Your English is good enough....better than some of ours. It is cer= tainly than our ability to speak Czech. Congratulations on your efforts and= keep up the good work. We all stand ready to help you in any way possibl= e or to answer your questions. Lanney Ratcliff Cleburne, Texas rat@htcomp.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Pavel Grund To: ve=F8ejn=E1 konference US MM Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 1:47 PM Subject: MtMan-List: RE:RE: Hallo! Thank all , who reply to my message. Up to direct address I answ= er in sequence as shall I can. Excuse me, please, for my terrible English. Translations are cause hold-up. Thank you for your friendly interes= t. Peggy --Boundary_(ID_INwDnAaW3xL+KrMMloaojg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Well=20 said.  I figure when I learn to speak 3 or 4 languages like some of = my=20 foreign co-workers, THEN, I'll have room to comment.  =20
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of=20 Ratcliff
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 8:08 = PM
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE:RE: = Hallo!

Your English is good enough....better than some of ours.  It = is=20 certainly than our ability to speak Czech.  Congratulations on = your=20 efforts and keep up the good work.   We all stand ready to = help you=20 in any way possible or to answer your questions.
Lanney Ratcliff
Cleburne, Texas
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Pavel Grund=20
To: ve=F8ejn=E1=20 konference US MM
Sent: Monday, January 17, = 2000 1:47=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: RE:RE:=20 Hallo!

Thank all , who reply to  = my message.=20 Up to direct address I answer in sequence as shall I can. Excuse me, = please,  for my terrible English. Translations are cause =20 hold-up.  Thank you for your friendly interest.=20 Peggy
--Boundary_(ID_INwDnAaW3xL+KrMMloaojg)-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Moccs and such... Date: 18 Jan 2000 19:27:45 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, George Noe wrote: > I thought he said he had to pullthem off because his > feet sweat in them, MOST have Got Wet !!! Oh SURE George.... I knew someone was gonna catch that after I sent it... the real sweating came when my wife woke up the next morning and saw how badly I had trashed the living room after we spent Saturday a picking it up! Winter moccs come in handy when you're locked outside with the hounddogs. Since I'm probably not gonna have the funds to make a spare set of moccs, I'm thinking a spare set of liners (or two) will be almost as handy. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 18 Jan 2000 21:39:33 CST To all, Thanks to all who responded to my post on the non-believers. I have yet another question on that is not related to the mountain men. In 1587 the English settled on a island off of North Carolina. Sir Walter Raliegh and John White were the founders. Raliegh and white left to fight the Spanish navy(the great defeat of the Spanish Armada by the hand of the English) and came back 3 years later bringing supplies. When they returned, all they found was the inhabitants tools, huts, etc. and a tree with "CROATOAN" carved in it. Raliegh did say to leave a message if they moved. He looked up and down the mainland coast but found no one but a group of Indians with lighter hair than the other local tibes. Does anyone know what happened to the English settlers? Matt Porter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 18 Jan 2000 22:47:51 -0600 your teachers have not touched on this one? amazing.... it is still a mystery. No one knows... they also contained the first childe born in the new world Virginnia Dare...think that was her name. And I bet they will tell you that St. Augustine was the first village too... there is another, a yr older.. anne > Thanks to all who responded to my post on the non-believers. I have yet > another question on that is not related to the mountain men. In 1587 the > English settled on a island off of North Carolina. Sir Walter Raliegh and > John White were the founders. Raliegh and white left to fight the Spanish > navy(the great defeat of the Spanish Armada by the hand of the English) and > came back 3 years later bringing supplies. When they returned, all they > found was the inhabitants tools, huts, etc. and a tree with "CROATOAN" > carved in it. Raliegh did say to leave a message if they moved. He looked > up and down the mainland coast but found no one but a group of Indians with > lighter hair than the other local tibes. Does anyone know what happened to > the English settlers? > > Matt > Porter > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 18 Jan 2000 23:01:29 EST Hi, CROATOAN was the name of a nearby island. As we understand it, they were to go there if threatened. The historians that I have read believe that it is likely that Spanish raiders came. In the attempt to reach the island, the settlers might have been killed at sea. Others believe that Native Americans attacked, they tried to leave and their boat(s) sank in a rough sea. I have even read of those who believe that they went inland and this could account for blue eyes found in some Native Americans along the Missouri. I suspect this is more likely a result of Vikings or Celts, however! Mysteries like this really make history exciting! Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camas roots Date: 18 Jan 2000 20:05:29 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, jerry derringer wrote: > Howdy list! > Saw this post mention Camas fields & remember readin abt it in Lewis & Clark's > books. > Can anyone fill me in on this root? can it be planted & grown as a "crop" do they > have seeds? Hallo from Idaho Jerry There are two types of Camas in our area, (Idaho) the Common Camas (Camassia quamash), and Mountain-Death Camas (Zigadenus elegans), both are in the Lily family. As the name states, you probably don't want to mess with the Death Camas varity... it's toxic to both man and beast. It's good to know what Death Camas looks like, as it can be (and has been) confused with wild onions, sego lilies, fritillariias, and wild hyacinths when these edible plants are only a few inches high. A tell-tale trait when in flower, Death Camas flowers have thickened green or yellow glands at the base of each flower petal. Both white-man and Indian alike mistook 'em in the old days... both suffered the consequences. Interesting facts (from "Peterson's Rocky Mountain Wildflowers"): Quamash is an Indian name. The bulb of this plant is starchy and nutritious; it can be eaten at any season but is best in autumn. The boiled bulbs are potato-like in flavor but slightly slimy or gummy and less mealy than potatoes. They can be baked, roasted, dried, or eaten raw. Indians cooked them in rock ovens. The Camas probably played a more significant role in early western history than any other plant. If formed the chief vegetable diet of the Indians of the Northwest, trappers, and early settlers. Members of the Lewis and Clark expedition used the Camas extensively and at times were entirely dependent on it as food. The bulbs of this plant enticed the Nez Perces, under Chief Joseph, to leave their reservation along the Clearwater River in Idaho and go south to collect them. This infraction started the Chief Joseph War, which was one of the most brilliant campaigns waged by the American Indian in defense of thier homelands. Elk, deer, and moose reportedly graze the plant in early spring. Because Camas grows so luxuriantly in places, frequently giving a bluish tint to acres of meadowland, it has inspired many place names, such as; Camas, Idaho; Camas Prarie, near Grangeville, Idaho; and Camas Hot Springs, Montana. I sure it has seeds, but I am unaware of anyone attempting to grow it as a crop since it needs wet, somewhat marshy soil to grow in. Harvested by digging. Also used as a flavoring for tea by the gents at Fort George circa 1814 (Journal of Henry Alexander the Younger, Vol II) Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 18 Jan 2000 20:10:05 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 Huss931@aol.com wrote: > I have even read of those who believe that they went inland and this > could account for blue eyes found in some Native Americans along the > Missouri. I suspect this is more likely a result of Vikings or Celts, > however! > Mysteries like this really make history exciting! Ahhh... the famous lost tribe of the Welsh Indians? I read recently that the Mandans were believed to be that with their lighter skin and lighter colored eyes.... but they were a long, long way from the sea... Lost in the mists of time..... Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Two Otter Trading Date: 18 Jan 2000 21:07:58 -0800 (PST) Ho the camp! Just a note to let you know of a new trader on the web... it's Twin Otter Trading, and they can be found at www.twinottertrading.com The business is run by Tim and Juanita Hines, and they make some dandy clothes. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison River Party?? Date: 19 Jan 2000 01:37:45 EST Sorry about that, Jill was trying to send a message off the list to Ron. We're a might green at this computin stuff. A MIGHT RED FACED Crazy and Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 19 Jan 2000 07:14:40 -0600 -----Original Message----- >Hi, > CROATOAN was the name of a nearby island. I heard that it was the name of a nearby indian village. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 19 Jan 2000 09:39:30 -0500 (EST) William Strachey, an early settler of the Virginia colony, wrote in 1613 that according to the local indians, the Roanoke colonists had merged with a local people and subsequently moved inland, where they constructed and lived in two storie stone houses more like European dwellings than Native American habitations.......the Indians of Robeson County N.C., now know as the Lumbee believe they are the descendants ofthis group. "The Lumbee,by Adolph L.Dial" YMOS, Michael Wolfe P.S My Wife is part Lumbee and her mother a Lumbee bon in N.C. truly belives this!!! M.W http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 19 Jan 2000 11:02:35 -0600 No offense meant, but there are lots of 'stories' about what happened to this colony....non truly substantiated. As things stand now, (I just called up to a historian friend at USF, he says that nope, officiallly it is still a mystery - thier dissappearance.) Seeems to me, I recall a year or two ago, the History Channel did a show about this.... might contact them, and see what they say... granted it is a popular tv show, and they are not long on documentation, but........... > William Strachey, an early settler of the Virginia > colony, wrote in 1613 that according to the local indians, the Roanoke > colonists had merged with a local people and subsequently moved inland, > where they constructed and lived in two storie stone houses more like > European dwellings than Native American habitations.......the Indians of > Robeson County N.C., now know as the Lumbee believe they are the > descendants ofthis group. > "The Lumbee,by Adolph L.Dial" > YMOS, > Michael Wolfe > P.S My Wife is part Lumbee and her mother a Lumbee bon in N.C. truly > belives this!!! > M.W > > http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin > > The road to progress is the path of fools!!! > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 19 Jan 2000 11:56:56 -0500 (EST) That is however what the Lumbee belive to be true. I did not mean to implie it was "The Truth" or the only answer to a very interesting histori- cal riddle,just one of many explanations! Humbly, M.Wolfe http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 19 Jan 2000 12:47:42 -0600 Yeah, I know,.... what I have always found amusing is the way history is written, not only by the victors, but lately the slant is to write, or rather rewrite it to reflect poltical climes. I have my own high school history book, in it it states that the Japenese were winning in the Pacific, that was a factor in deciding to drop the A-bomb.... In my 17 yr old son's that tidbit is conveniently left out. I remember a conversation with my father, who was in intelligence during that time, in the Army Air Corps. He told me the same thing.... But now because we are buddy-buddy with Japan, we cannot say anthing that might be construed as 'wrong'. Another pet peeve of mine is that historians, and teachers, frequently teach history from a modern standpoint. Not either understanding or wishing to look at it from the attitude of the times whether or not, the attitudes were right or wrong, is totally immaterial, it was how they looked at things, and viewed the world during that time in history. ooopps, how did that soapbox slide over here...sigh.... anyway... annie > That is however what the Lumbee belive to be true. I did not mean to > implie it was "The Truth" or the only answer to a very interesting > histori- > cal riddle,just one of many explanations! > Humbly, > M.Wolfe > > http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin > > The road to progress is the path of fools!!! > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Croatoan Date: 19 Jan 2000 10:11:42 -0800 (PST) Matt, the story you are referring to is known as "the Lost Colony". There are a lot of theories and stories about the event. I believe the T.V. program referred to earlier was an episode of the program "in Search of" Or it may have been on "Histories Mysteries" I am not sure which. It still remains a mystery, but Virginia Dare remains the first white child known to be born in the new world. It is an interesting story, for sure. Dog __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wefarmasmidgen" Subject: MtMan-List: Croatoan Date: 19 Jan 2000 12:48:01 -0600 If you visit Jamestown, the historians there will tell you that it is not known what is meant by CROATOAN, and where the settlers went is still a mystery. There are several theories; none of them proven. However, the most likely seems to be that some of the settlers were absorbed into the indian tribes - this is based on fact that there were blue-eyed indians to be found in the area. Someone mentioned that this would be most likely from the vikings; maybe, maybe not, maybe some from both sources. Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin wefarm@pcii.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Croatoan Date: 19 Jan 2000 14:01:40 -0600 Seems to me another theory involved a mass grave, but I am working on a long ago tv show... yeah it was on History's Mystery's and Nat'l Geo did a spread on it some years back. another mystery is how a stele covered in viking runes exists in kansas [or was it okla.?] found the website one night when I typed in Rune as a search word... ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 12:48 PM > If you visit Jamestown, the historians there will tell you that it is not > known what is meant by CROATOAN, and where the settlers went is still a > mystery. There are several theories; none of them proven. However, the > most likely seems to be that some of the settlers were absorbed into the > indian tribes - this is based on fact that there were blue-eyed indians to > be found in the area. Someone mentioned that this would be most likely from > the vikings; maybe, maybe not, maybe some from both sources. > > Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen > in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin > wefarm@pcii.net > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: Croatoan Date: 19 Jan 2000 12:28:16 -0700 Please take the Croatoan discussion off list..it doesn't fit here. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 19 Jan 2000 13:38:22 -0500 there is a town in north carolina that was founded by the so called lost tribe---dont remember the name---someone else might have that info---they have been trying to get recognized as a indian tribe for years---it is located just south of fayetteville nc. On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:47:51 -0600 "Anne MacDonnald" writes: > your teachers have not touched on this one? > amazing.... it is still a mystery. No one knows... > they also contained the first childe born in the new world > Virginnia > Dare...think that was her name. > > And I bet they will tell you that St. Augustine was the first > village too... > there is another, a yr older.. > anne > > > > > > Thanks to all who responded to my post on the non-believers. I > have yet > > another question on that is not related to the mountain men. In > 1587 the > > English settled on a island off of North Carolina. Sir Walter > Raliegh and > > John White were the founders. Raliegh and white left to fight the > Spanish > > navy(the great defeat of the Spanish Armada by the hand of the > English) > and > > came back 3 years later bringing supplies. When they returned, > all they > > found was the inhabitants tools, huts, etc. and a tree with > "CROATOAN" > > carved in it. Raliegh did say to leave a message if they moved. > He > looked > > up and down the mainland coast but found no one but a group of > Indians > with > > lighter hair than the other local tibes. Does anyone know what > happened > to > > the English settlers? > > > > Matt > > Porter > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 19 Jan 2000 14:18:31 -0600 -----Original Message----- >whether or not, the attitudes were right or wrong, is totally immaterial, it >was how they looked at things, and viewed the world during that time in >history. "Never judge the events of the past by using the perspectives of the present." Thats one of my favorite sayings. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: For Sale Date: 19 Jan 2000 15:22:50 -0500 Hi all, Excuse this crass commercial announcement. But a friend of mine, Jim Moore, Outta Pa. has the following for sale. It ia all high quality stuff and ENTIRELY hand sewn. The breeches are pricey, but the rest is worth it.. He will sell or trade...He trades well... D > > > > >Waistcoat--wool, grey, early, knee-length, with leather buttons--$250 > > > >Breeches--linen, olive drab-ish, fly waist, pockets, buttons at waist, > >leg ones missing...well used, small holes, greasy from being out in > the > >woods, hunting, etc. $200 > > > >Blanket, 6 X 6 1/2 feet, handspun, hand-dyed, handwoven, from > >Prickett's Fort $200, > > > >Trade or sell, on everything. Call James at 724-537-7240 after 8 pm > >EST... > > -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: funny link! Date: 17 Jan 2000 17:13:25 -0800 >I researched this in great depth. Among the findings were: > 1. The French primarily came for this reason. > 2. But, the others (except Spain) used furs as a supplement to their > attempt to make money from the new world. > 3. You will soon study the Navigation Acts of England in Colonial > America. One of the major restrictions was on "hats." Colonials were not > allowed to have a hat industry An excellent source for the history of early British migrations to this country is "Albions Seed", Four British Folkways in America. David Hackett Fischer, Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-506905-6 The book discusses, in length, the four great migrations from Britain to the New World including the Speech ways, building ways, Family Ways, Marriage ways, Gender, sex, child rearing, naming ways, death ways, religious ways, magic ways, learning ways, food, fashion, sports, work, Time ways, distribution of wealth , rank, social ways, ways of order, power, and freedom. Lots of foot notes and a bibliography too. At $26 bucks in paperback and just over 900 pages, this book is a little intimidating for those of us without the benefit of higher education, but it is a very interesting read. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tipis@mediaone.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 19 Jan 2000 18:15:12 -0500 Actually there was the settlement at Ft. Caroline in Jacksonville, FLa. that can claim the first "white" child born in the new world that predates Dare. Unfortunately they also disappeared when force to go back to France and their ship was destroyed by a large storm off the coast of St. Augustine. Linda Holley Anne MacDonnald wrote: > your teachers have not touched on this one? > amazing.... it is still a mystery. No one knows... > they also contained the first childe born in the new world Virginnia > Dare...think that was her name. > > And I bet they will tell you that St. Augustine was the first village too... > there is another, a yr older.. > anne > > > Thanks to all who responded to my post on the non-believers. I have yet > > another question on that is not related to the mountain men. In 1587 the > > English settled on a island off of North Carolina. Sir Walter Raliegh and > > John White were the founders. Raliegh and white left to fight the Spanish > > navy(the great defeat of the Spanish Armada by the hand of the English) > and > > came back 3 years later bringing supplies. When they returned, all they > > found was the inhabitants tools, huts, etc. and a tree with "CROATOAN" > > carved in it. Raliegh did say to leave a message if they moved. He > looked > > up and down the mainland coast but found no one but a group of Indians > with > > lighter hair than the other local tibes. Does anyone know what happened > to > > the English settlers? > > > > Matt > > Porter > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Croatoan Date: 19 Jan 2000 20:37:10 -0600 Heavener Oklahoma. Seems wierd, but if you look at a map, it would be possible to get to Heavener, by heading down the Mississippi, and then up the Arkansas. Put you to within a days walk of where the stone is. Fiction book called "The Runestone" by Dan Coldsmith that presensts some plausible ideas how the Mandan got their blond hair and green eyes, and how the stone got there. The author points out it IS fiction, and does not say this is how things happened, but how they could have happened. Pretty good read actually. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Anne MacDonnald > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 2:02 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Croatoan > > > Seems to me another theory involved a mass grave, but > I am working on a long ago tv show... > yeah it was on History's Mystery's and Nat'l Geo did a > spread on it some years back. > > another mystery is how a stele covered in viking runes exists in > kansas [or > was it okla.?] found the website one night when I typed in Rune > as a search > word... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wefarmasmidgen" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 12:48 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Croatoan > > > > If you visit Jamestown, the historians there will tell you that > it is not > > known what is meant by CROATOAN, and where the settlers went is still a > > mystery. There are several theories; none of them proven. However, the > > most likely seems to be that some of the settlers were absorbed into the > > indian tribes - this is based on fact that there were blue-eyed > indians to > > be found in the area. Someone mentioned that this would be most likely > from > > the vikings; maybe, maybe not, maybe some from both sources. > > > > Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen > > in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin > > wefarm@pcii.net > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 19 Jan 2000 21:14:31 -0800 Hello the camp, A friend has asked me the following question and I don't have the answer. "Does the AMM know or made a list of the type rifles, smoothbores, trade guns, etc. carried and used by the MM? Most prevalent type etc.? How much research into firearms has AMM done?" I took a look in the archives and found many references to rifles, guns and fusils, etc. but didn't find any specific references that really came close to answering the above question in any detail other that "so may of rifles, so many NW guns, so many fusils, etc. Has anyone compiled a report of what types and styles, etc. of guns were carried? Where can I find that information. Thanks, I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 00:40:08 -0700 Has anyone compiled > a report of what types and styles, etc. of guns were carried? Where can > I find that information. Thanks, I remain.....> YMOS> Capt. Lahti' Good question Capt. Lahti', you may find that this is breaking new ground. Signal fires appear rather limited around this campfire in the few days I have begin to participate. Maybe a new table is called for. Badgerhole. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 07:37:48 -0600 If you want to see what learn more about the types of firearms carried by the mountain men check out the book "The Plains Rifle". It probably covers the information you are looking for better than any other work I have seen. northwoods -----Original Message----- >Hello the camp, > >A friend has asked me the following question and I don't have the >answer. > >"Does the AMM know or made a list of the type rifles, smoothbores, trade >guns, etc. carried and >used by the MM? Most prevalent type etc.? How much research into >firearms has AMM done?" > >I took a look in the archives and found many references to rifles, guns >and fusils, etc. but didn't find any specific references that really >came close to answering the above question in any detail other that "so >may of rifles, so many NW guns, so many fusils, etc. Has anyone compiled >a report of what types and styles, etc. of guns were carried? Where can >I find that information. Thanks, I remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 06:47:44 -0800 On Wed, 19 January 2000, R Lahti wrote: > > Hello the camp, > > A friend has asked me the following question and I don't have the > answer. > > "Does the AMM know or made a list of the type rifles, smoothbores, trade > guns, etc. carried and > used by the MM? Most prevalent type etc.? How much research into > firearms has AMM done?" > > I took a look in the archives and found many references to rifles, guns > and fusils, etc. but didn't find any specific references that really > came close to answering the above question in any detail other that "so > may of rifles, so many NW guns, so many fusils, etc. Has anyone compiled > a report of what types and styles, etc. of guns were carried? Where can > I find that information. Thanks, I remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' Capt., Charley Hanson tried to put together a list years ago and found there where to many unknowns. For example: the military gave you a musket when finishing your enlistment and many left for the mountains carrying that weapon, according to Charley the numbers are unknown - where the men went with their guns. But we see them in collections found in the Rockies, plain, tacked, broken or their parts used on other guns. Same with the NW, trade gun and everything from fowlers to plains rifles, everytime Charley thought he had a handle on it, another thing would come up to change his count or his mind. I have a pre 1813 Sharpe trade gun, limited in manf. numbers from England - sold for the east coast only according to the historians (that's where mine came from), yet Charley found a chopped down one at an old ranch in NE, a family hand-me-down - now at the museum. One's guess is as good as another's on what, type and numbers went to the trade. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~ ~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory Aux Ailments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 08:01:05 -0800 There are numerous books out there - well written, serious stuff. Plus there are many, many journal and diary entries from the period that provide a wealth of information. One just has to be willing to do the ground work of hunting for it. Start with the card or computer index at the local library. Bill C -----Original Message----- >Hello the camp, > >A friend has asked me the following question and I don't have the >answer. > >"Does the AMM know or made a list of the type rifles, smoothbores, trade >guns, etc. carried and >used by the MM? Most prevalent type etc.? How much research into >firearms has AMM done?" > >I took a look in the archives and found many references to rifles, guns >and fusils, etc. but didn't find any specific references that really >came close to answering the above question in any detail other that "so >may of rifles, so many NW guns, so many fusils, etc. Has anyone compiled >a report of what types and styles, etc. of guns were carried? Where can >I find that information. Thanks, I remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 08:59:01 -0600 Re: Northwoods' post: on "The Plains Rifle" "The Plains Rifle" by Charles E. Hanson Gun Room Press 127 Raritan Ave Highland Park, NJ Excellent book, even for beginners. Has beautiful photographs. Lots of details. Be sure to get a cup of coffee because Mr. Hanson's style of writing is as if you and he are sitting at the kitchen table drinking coffee while he shares his perspective and knowledge. Texan On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:37:48 -0600 "northwoods" writes: > If you want to see what learn more about the types of firearms > carried by > the mountain men check out the book "The Plains Rifle". It probably > covers > the information you are looking for better than any other work I > have seen. > > northwoods > > -----Original Message----- > From: R Lahti > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: January 19, 2000 11:13 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade > > > >Hello the camp, > > > >A friend has asked me the following question and I don't have the > >answer. > > > >"Does the AMM know or made a list of the type rifles, smoothbores, > trade > >guns, etc. carried and > >used by the MM? Most prevalent type etc.? How much research into > >firearms has AMM done?" > > > >I took a look in the archives and found many references to rifles, > guns > >and fusils, etc. but didn't find any specific references that > really > >came close to answering the above question in any detail other that > "so > >may of rifles, so many NW guns, so many fusils, etc. Has anyone > compiled > >a report of what types and styles, etc. of guns were carried? Where > can > >I find that information. Thanks, I remain..... > > > >YMOS > >Capt. Lahti' > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade] Date: 20 Jan 2000 09:58:43 EST bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) wrote: There are numerous books out there - well written, serious stuff. Plus th= ere are many, many journal and diary entries from the period that provide a wealth of information. One just has to be willing to do the ground work o= f hunting for it. Start with the card or computer index at the local librar= y. Bill C -----Original Message----- Hey Bill, A few issues back you had an article in the Tomahawk & Long Rifle on trad= e guns that Buck wrote, I use that article for reference when doing men's luncheons, etc. - good information and not much baloney to weed through. = I really like what you have done with that publication old friend. Buck has moved his web page to another server - ABOUT.COM, need to get th= e address, guess AT&T got a little pricey. Take care Bill, Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade] Date: 20 Jan 2000 10:03:58 EST Victoria Pate wrote: Re: Northwoods' post: on "The Plains Rifle" "The Plains Rifle" by Charles E. Hanson Gun Room Press 127 Raritan Ave Highland Park, NJ Excellent book, even for beginners. Has beautiful photographs. Lots of details. Be sure to get a cup of coffee because Mr. Hanson's style of writing is as if you and he are sitting at the kitchen table drinking coffee while he shares his perspective and knowledge. Texan _______________________________ That must be where Buck gets his style from, him and Charlie where friend= s for 30 years, ever free weekend Buck would make the trip from Denver to Chadr= on to be with his friend. Got we miss you Charles E. Hanson, Jr. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade] Date: 20 Jan 2000 10:10:40 -0800 Thank you for the kind words. I just mailed the Feb issue - the PO should have it to everyone within about three weeks. Bill -----Original Message----- bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) wrote: There are numerous books out there - well written, serious stuff. Plus there are many, many journal and diary entries from the period that provide a wealth of information. One just has to be willing to do the ground work of hunting for it. Start with the card or computer index at the local library. Bill C -----Original Message----- Hey Bill, A few issues back you had an article in the Tomahawk & Long Rifle on trade guns that Buck wrote, I use that article for reference when doing men's luncheons, etc. - good information and not much baloney to weed through. I really like what you have done with that publication old friend. Buck has moved his web page to another server - ABOUT.COM, need to get the address, guess AT&T got a little pricey. Take care Bill, Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 11:24:59 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BF6338.FC365200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capt., I think the right answer is, they carried whatever type of gun they = had when they initially went to the mountains. There are documents that = detail what type of guns were carried to the mountains by the trading = companies, but that doesn't reflect what the turnover rate was on guns. = By that I mean, how long did the average gun last that was taken to the = mountains. One thing we have to keep in mind, fine guns were highly = cherished then as they are now, but for the most part guns were just = tools, like traps, knives and all the other gear. They were neccessary = for the harvesting of furs, much like a carpenters or plumbers tools are = used today. when one wore out they got another one. I guess that was a rather longwinded way of saying, I don't know, and = I don't think anyone else does either. Like you I wish I did. One = thing that has always puzzled me is, why did the trading companies = document all the details of the cloth and the sizes and colors of the = beads, but didn't document the calibers of the guns that were taken or = sizes and styles of the knives that were taken. Now before I stir up = another discussion, I know that there are surviving examples of butcher = knives and scalpers, but in the records the say so many doz. butcher = knives and so many scalpers etc. without giving any detail of the style = or size. So many questions. Pendleton =20 -----Original Message----- From: R Lahti To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 9:12 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade =20 =20 Hello the camp, =20 A friend has asked me the following question and I don't have the answer. =20 "Does the AMM know or made a list of the type rifles, smoothbores, = trade guns, etc. carried and used by the MM? Most prevalent type etc.? How much research into firearms has AMM done?" =20 I took a look in the archives and found many references to rifles, = guns and fusils, etc. but didn't find any specific references that really came close to answering the above question in any detail other that = "so may of rifles, so many NW guns, so many fusils, etc. Has anyone = compiled a report of what types and styles, etc. of guns were carried? Where = can I find that information. Thanks, I remain..... =20 YMOS Capt. Lahti' =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BF6338.FC365200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Capt.,
  I think = the right=20 answer is, they carried whatever type of gun they had when they = initially went=20 to the mountains.  There are documents that detail what type of = guns were=20 carried to the mountains by the trading companies, but that doesn't = reflect what=20 the turnover rate was on guns.  By that I mean, how long did the = average=20 gun last that was taken to the mountains.  One thing we have to = keep in=20 mind, fine guns were highly cherished then as they are now, but for the = most=20 part guns were just tools, like traps, knives and all the other = gear.  They=20 were neccessary for the harvesting of furs, much like a carpenters or = plumbers=20 tools are used today.  when one wore out they got another = one.
  I guess that was a rather longwinded way of = saying, I=20 don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either.  Like you I = wish I=20 did.  One thing that has always puzzled me is, why did the trading=20 companies document all the details of the cloth and the sizes and colors = of the=20 beads, but didn't document the calibers of the guns that were taken or = sizes and=20 styles of the knives that were taken.  Now before I stir up another = discussion, I know that there are surviving examples of butcher knives = and=20 scalpers, but in the records the say so many doz. butcher knives and so = many=20 scalpers etc. without giving any detail of the style or = size.
So many questions.
Pendleton 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, January 19, 2000 9:12 PM
Subject: = MtMan-List: Guns=20 of the fur trade

Hello the camp,

A friend = has=20 asked me the following question and I don't have=20 the
answer.

"Does the AMM know or made a list of the = type=20 rifles, smoothbores, trade
guns, etc. carried and
used by the=20 MM?  Most prevalent type etc.?  How much research = into
firearms=20 has AMM done?"

I took a look in the archives and found = many=20 references to rifles, guns
and fusils, etc. but didn't find any = specific=20 references that really
came close to answering the above question = in any=20 detail other that "so
may of rifles, so many NW guns, so = many=20 fusils, etc. Has anyone compiled
a report of what types and = styles, etc.=20 of guns were carried? Where can
I find that information. Thanks, = I=20 remain.....

YMOS
Capt.=20 Lahti'

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BF6338.FC365200-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 09:34:25 -0800 Walt Foster wrote: > Good question Capt. Lahti', you may find that this is breaking new ground. > Signal fires appear rather limited around this campfire in the few days I > have begin to participate. Maybe a new table is called for. Badgerhole, Good to hear you pop up friend. So far what I have seen in the "ledgers" and "bill's of lading" (from a quick perusal) has been just references to "rifles", "guns", "fusils", etc. No specific brands, styles, or types other than a couple entries for "NW guns" or "NW Fusils", I think the former is how it was worded. There was another interesting entry referring to "twisted" fusils versus just "fusils. Wonder what that meant? I did come across a couple references to "Hawken" guns or rifles but that I think was the only reference made to a specific "brand" or "maker" and that didn't shed any light on what type of "Hawken" was being referred to. There seemed to be an inordinate disparity between "fusils" or NW guns (which I assume refer to some type of smoothbore rather than rifle) and specific numbers of rifles with many more of the former being taken west to the "Trade" than the latter. In the very few journal entries I browsed last night all the narrators refused to go into detail as to what specific gun they were carrying other than to made "reference" to having a rifle or a gun or a fusil. I was thus left to wonder. Any one have any input? I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: MtMan-List: powder Horns Date: 20 Jan 2000 12:38:57 -0600 morning all; a couple of years ago, there was a lovely book published and advertised on muzzleblasts about powder horns. I would like to gift my elder brother with it, but for the life of me cannot remember the title or author. anyone? thanks annie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 09:59:34 -0800 (PST) Hello Captn. I don't think that the AMM has a specific list of types, but I would refer your friend to "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" by Carl P. Russell. A good place to start. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 09:14 PM 01/19/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Hello the camp, > >A friend has asked me the following question and I don't have the >answer. > >"Does the AMM know or made a list of the type rifles, smoothbores, trade >guns, etc. carried and >used by the MM? Most prevalent type etc.? How much research into >firearms has AMM done?" > >I took a look in the archives and found many references to rifles, guns >and fusils, etc. but didn't find any specific references that really >came close to answering the above question in any detail other that "so >may of rifles, so many NW guns, so many fusils, etc. Has anyone compiled >a report of what types and styles, etc. of guns were carried? Where can >I find that information. Thanks, I remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder Horns Date: 20 Jan 2000 12:07:40 -0600 Have you tried to contact the Muzzle Blasts people? Their telephone # is 1-(812) 667-5131 and their fax # is 1-(812) 667 5137. That would be a good place to start if you haven't already checked with them. Long John ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 12:38 PM > morning all; > > a couple of years ago, there was a lovely book published and advertised on > muzzleblasts about powder horns. > I would like to gift my elder brother with it, but for the life of me cannot > remember the title or author. > anyone? thanks annie > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 12:24:37 -0500 roger--- dont know anyone in the amm that has this type of info except the museum of the fir trade in crofton nebraska---but dont know if it is on a database or not so i would suggest that you: contact the davis museum in clarimore okla---believe they have a web site---a mr lee Good---ask him to print out all the gun makers from XXXX to XXXX and you would have a pretty complete list then all you need to do is decide if any were known to exist in the fur trade west---lee has all his makers and info on a computer database and they have one of the largest collections of ML in the workd---he has spent a lot of time putting his database together---don't know if he would share the info but it is quite possible---he sure has a lot of info---almost impossible to stump him---he also has a writup on each maker with all the info that he has---I sure would like to have a copy of his total database ---he was still working on it 4 or 5 years ago when i saw and talked to him his wife is also an expert on trade beads---dan anderson is a good friend of thers and usually contacts lee if i need anything--- hope this is some help---this would really be a good thing for the AMM to have and could use to assist their members---you might be able to cut a deal--- let me know offline if i can be of help or what you find out--- YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:14:31 -0800 R Lahti writes: > Hello the camp, > > A friend has asked me the following question and I don't have the > answer. > > "Does the AMM know or made a list of the type rifles, smoothbores, > trade > guns, etc. carried and > used by the MM? Most prevalent type etc.? How much research into > firearms has AMM done?" > > I took a look in the archives and found many references to rifles, > guns > and fusils, etc. but didn't find any specific references that really > came close to answering the above question in any detail other that > "so > may of rifles, so many NW guns, so many fusils, etc. Has anyone > compiled > a report of what types and styles, etc. of guns were carried? Where > can > I find that information. Thanks, I remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Guns of the Fur Trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 10:09:26 -0800 (PST) No one has mentioned "Firearms, Traps and Tools" which was one of the references we used years ago. Has it been discredited over time? While looking for my copy I came across another titled "Guns on the Early Frontier" by Carl P. Russell which may be of help. I agree that people most likely carried what they had upon leaving for the west. As for the term "twisted fusil" , the most likely explanation would be a rifled barrel, but I have never heard of such. If Curly Gostomski were still alive he could probably enlighten us. Another good 'un gone and missed. Well, I guess I have rambled long enough. Dog, G.H.B. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: GUN LIST Date: 20 Jan 2000 10:12:55 -0800 (PST) If you find a site for the Jim Davis Museum, Please post it or send it to me. George ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder Horns Date: 20 Jan 2000 10:13:45 -0800 (PST) Anne, Could you be talking about Madison Grant's book "Powder Horns and Their Architecture?" I think it is still in print and not too expensive (I think I paid $35.) There is another very extensive book that came out a few years ago, but it was $100+; unfortunately I don't remember the name of that book. Hope that helps. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 _______________________________________________________________________________ At 12:38 PM 01/20/2000 -0600, you wrote: >morning all; > >a couple of years ago, there was a lovely book published and advertised on >muzzleblasts about powder horns. >I would like to gift my elder brother with it, but for the life of me cannot >remember the title or author. >anyone? thanks annie > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN LIST Date: 20 Jan 2000 10:34:45 -0800 George Noe wrote: > > If you find a site for the Jim Davis Museum, Please > post it or send it to me. George, This what your looking for? That's the URL for the J. M. Davis Gun Museum. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: [Fwd: FW: MtMan-List: powder Horns] Date: 20 Jan 2000 10:45:33 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0EC0E5BD8E5486CEF44EBD58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------0EC0E5BD8E5486CEF44EBD58 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from texchg.te.l-3com.com ([166.20.232.3]) by mtapop5.gte.net (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000120183330.TUW4668359.mtapop5@texchg.te.l-3com.com> for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:33:30 -0600 Received: by TEXCHG with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:41:12 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Afternoon Capt. Here is the powder horn info that Anne is looking for. For some reason, I can receive hist_text posts but can't send them. Could you forward this for me? Thanks Kirk Hi Anne. Muzzleblasts, June 1996. Folk Art Of Early America: The Engraved Powder Horn, by Jim Dresslar. Dresslar Publishing, PO Box 635, Bargersville, IN 46106. (317)422-5147 $95.00 plus $4.95 S/H ISBN 8-9651839-8-8 (1996 price) Kirk --------------0EC0E5BD8E5486CEF44EBD58-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder Horns Date: 20 Jan 2000 14:28:26 -0600 If you want the best book ever written on the subject,(might be the one you saw advertised as it was published a 96') get him "The Engraved Powder Horn" by Jim Dresslar published by Dresslar publishing. The photography is by David Wesbrook. The address of Dresslar publishing is: Dresslar Publishing P.O. box 635 bargersville, Indiana 46106 Better yet, if your in the neighborhood stop in and see Jim. His book on horns contains photos of the best 100 or so horns in the country. The book itself is a masterpiece. northwoods -----Original Message----- >morning all; >a couple of years ago, there was a lovely book published and advertised on >muzzleblasts about powder horns. >I would like to gift my elder brother with it, but for the life of me cannot >remember the title or author. >anyone? thanks annie > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the Fur Trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 14:33:01 -0600 -----Original Message----- >No one has mentioned "Firearms, Traps and Tools" which >was one of the references we used years ago. Has it >been discredited over time? nooooo! Still one of the best references ever compiled. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: Re: FW: MtMan-List: powder Horns] Date: 20 Jan 2000 16:12:39 -0600 oooooo cool beans! that's it...dresslars book... yup... remember the name once I saw it... I tell ya senility is not all its cracked up to be.. thanks all. dunno if anyone here remembers Charley Knight of the Florida Frontiersman he has been gone from us lo, these 4 yrs, but he was the one who taught me to make or rather carve my own powder horn. Patient man, anyone else prolly would have strangled me and my incessant questions. ::smiles:: anne macdonnald > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: MtMan-List: interesting quote Date: 20 Jan 2000 16:16:18 -0600 thanks guys for all the help... while this comment is a bit early for our period.... I remember a thread along similar lines a month or so ago... this is worth sharing, if for nothing else to see that some things never, ever change... anne 0=== Quotations from the Wise and Funny 0=== http://coolsig.com/bin/getsig?quotations "The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." (Marcus Tullius Cicero, 55 B.C.) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Judy Tyler Subject: MtMan-List: Davis Museum Date: 20 Jan 2000 16:15:59 -0600 George, Website for Davis Museum. http://www.state.ok.us/~jmdavis/inside.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Davis Museum Date: 20 Jan 2000 14:22:33 -0800 (PST) Thank you for the site. Both of you that sent it . grn --- Judy Tyler wrote: > George, > > > Website for Davis Museum. > > http://www.state.ok.us/~jmdavis/inside.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: My apology. Date: 20 Jan 2000 20:44:20 CST I'm sorry to fill the discussions with subjects that are irrelevant to the Mountain Men. The only reason I posted those messages was because I knew that someone here would know something about the topics. I didn't know where else to turn. My apologies to all of you. Matt Porter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Brittle Hide Date: 20 Jan 2000 21:45:52 -0500 Dealing with a very old, very thin, and very brittle cased hide. Wondering whether there is any treatment (mink oil?) which soften and help preserve this hide so as to be able to sew the tears without more tearing. Thanks! Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 19:32:51 -0800 On Thu, 20 January 2000, R Lahti wrote: I was thus left to wonder. Any one have any input? I remain.... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' ________________________________________ Here's some information out of a couple dozen sources, see article Capt. at URL bottom of this page. ________________________________________ BOARD OF ORDNANCE INDIAN GUNS 1813, 1814, 1815, 1816 This is just a very small part of the details available on the contractors and the numbers of firearms supplied in a few years as shown, good example of arms beginning supplied. Administration of Indian Gifts was handled by the BOARD OF TRADE during the first half of the 18th century and customary for the BOARD OF ORDNANCE to supply the firearms, gunpowder and lead, all included in those gifts. This practice stopped in 1753 for some reason that's not clear when reading supply lists. From this period on the BOARD OF TRADE furnished the orders for arms and choose who was to build them. In 1755 the contractor of choice was Richard Wilson of Minories, London. Wilson and his son, William continued to supply arms for the North American Indian trade well into the mid 1790's. The number shown with the contractor's name is the quantity sold to the Ordnance Stores from 1813 to 1816. Some of the contractors involved in supplying arms: David BLAIR (at his death his widow took over) 781 Jane Hannah BLAIR 538 Samuel & William DAWES 1,048 Samuel GALTON 2,557 John GILL 943 Thomas HAMPTON 1,135 Richard & William HOLLIS 1,215 KETLAND & ALLPORT 2,779 KETLAND & WALKER & CO. 2,983 Thomas LOWNDES 1,267 MORRIS & GRICE 1,821 Thomas MOXHAM 1,532 William J. ROLFE 1,335 Ramsay & Richard SUTHERLAND 2,587 Henry & John WHATELEY 1,580 Robert WHEELER & SON 1,491 WILLETS & HOLDEN 1,194 TOTAL 26,786 Shown below is a list of types of weapons produced for each year of the four years of their contracts. ARMS 1813 1814 1815 1816 TOTAL COMMON GUNS 2,911 5,595 3,806 182 12,494 CHIEF'S GUN 3,448 2,934 3,645 91 10,118 RIFLES 0 801 737 0 1,538 PISTOLS 531 1,319 786 0 2,636 _____ _____ _____ ____ ______ 6,890 10,969 8,974 273 26,786 Other archives such as the Canadian and British sources should have detailed information on supplies or shipments as well as related items sent to the Indian Trade and who issued them................. all this and more at new site, listed under weapons, "Success in the Fur Trade". See URL under my name. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~ ~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory Aux Ailments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brittle Hide Date: 20 Jan 2000 22:47:02 -0600 try neatsfoot oil...lots of it... you can help it soak in with a hand held blow dryer on low... Bf's old hunting boots were brittle, dry... had to be fixed, before I took them to the bootmaker, did the neatfoot oil thing... two big bottles in fact... 9 yrs later, they are still soft and supple... if the leather is very thin, i would suggest maybe a soft paint brush or you can consult someone who restores old books, they know of chemicals that can restore thin leather as well.. anne - Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:45 PM > Dealing with a very old, very thin, and very brittle cased hide. > Wondering whether there is any treatment (mink oil?) > which soften and help preserve this hide so as to be able > to sew the tears without more tearing. > > Thanks! > > Tom > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Moccs and such... Date: 20 Jan 2000 09:09:48 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01BF6326.1A07F760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not the prettiest looking moccs... in fact, by the time I stuff the blanket liner, a thick pair of wool socks, and my fat feet into them, = they come pretty close to looking like something Micky Mouse might be proud = to wear. I don't think Sorrell boot company will be knocking on my door to have me make their winter boots anytime soon. Well Lee this sounds all to familiar. I have made four mocs......some = folks would say that would be two pair but they looked so dissimilar = that four mocs is more representative of reality. When I finished the = last two in December, the first had a much longer toe than I have. In = an attempt to fix the problem I ended up with a nice pointy, upturned, = elf-like toe. Someone on this list claimed that after you get mocs = dusty and muddy enough they all start looking a lot alike. In my case I = pray its true! Anyway, as I read The Book of Buckskinning VII I had the impression that = the author felt that a single layer of leather and extra wool worked = better (dried out quicker) and still offered adequate protection for = winter. What do those of you with some winter experience on the ground = think? Humbly WYnn ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01BF6326.1A07F760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Not the prettiest looking moccs... in = fact, by the=20 time I stuff the
blanket liner, a thick pair of wool socks, and my = fat feet=20 into them, they
come pretty close to looking like something Micky = Mouse might=20 be proud to
wear.  I don't think Sorrell boot company will be = knocking=20 on my door to
have me make their winter boots anytime = soon.
Well Lee this sounds all to = familiar.  I have=20 made four mocs......some folks would say that would be two pair but they = looked=20 so dissimilar that four mocs is more representative of reality.  = When =20 I finished the last two in December, the first had a much longer toe = than I=20 have.  In an attempt to fix the problem I ended up with a nice = pointy,=20 upturned, elf-like toe.   Someone on this list claimed that = after you=20 get mocs dusty and muddy enough they all start looking a lot = alike.  In my=20 case I pray its true!
 
 
Anyway, as I read The Book of = Buckskinning VII I=20 had the impression that the author felt that a single layer of = leather and=20 extra wool worked better (dried out quicker) and still offered adequate=20 protection for winter.   What do those of you with some = winter=20 experience on the ground think?
 
Humbly
WYnn
 
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01BF6326.1A07F760-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the Fur Trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 22:06:06 -0800 Brothers, I just ordered it at the libray tonight. When it comes in I will let you know what I think of it. 3-strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the fur trade Date: 20 Jan 2000 22:45:42 -0800 Buck Conner wrote: ________________________________________ > Here's some information out of a couple dozen sources, see article Capt. at URL bottom of this page. > ________________________________________ Buck, Thanks. I'll forward this on to the Col. He was quit impressed with the AMM Archives site. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Moccs and such... Date: 20 Jan 2000 23:50:28 -0700 At 09:09 AM 01/20/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Anyway, as I read The Book of Buckskinning VII I had the impression that the author felt that a single layer of leather and extra wool worked better (dried out quicker) and still offered adequate protection for winter. What do those of you with some winter experience on the ground think? > >Humbly >WYnn Wynn, I use a leather side seam moccasin with about 12" tops. Inside is a side seam wool blanket liner that started off with 2 extra layers of wool blanketing on the sole. Wore them for 4 years in deep snow and some well below 0 temps. They were just fine. Just this year in a hunting camp I added 2 more layers of blanketing on the sole, the old ones kinda compressed down. I expect another 4 years out of them. Nice thing about snow is that it doesn't abrade the leather so it holds up good. I use bear grease and beeswax to keep them as water proof as moccasins can be. Being able to pull the liners out of the leather to dry is a very good feature. Good luck on yours. Oh, by the way, these moccasins are as warm as any Sorrels that I've ever owned! Allen Hall in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Moccs and such... Date: 20 Jan 2000 22:51:47 -0800 > Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > Anyway, as I read The Book of Buckskinning VII I had the impression > that the author felt that a single layer of leather and extra wool > worked better (dried out quicker) and still offered adequate > protection for winter. What do those of you with some winter > experience on the ground think? Wynn, I agree! I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 21 Jan 2000 06:28:02 PST Yes ma'am you are correct on all counts. YMOS, Kevin >From: "Anne MacDonnald" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN >Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:47:51 -0600 > >your teachers have not touched on this one? >amazing.... it is still a mystery. No one knows... >they also contained the first childe born in the new world Virginnia >Dare...think that was her name. > >And I bet they will tell you that St. Augustine was the first village >too... >there is another, a yr older.. >anne > > > > > > Thanks to all who responded to my post on the non-believers. I have >yet > > another question on that is not related to the mountain men. In 1587 >the > > English settled on a island off of North Carolina. Sir Walter Raliegh >and > > John White were the founders. Raliegh and white left to fight the >Spanish > > navy(the great defeat of the Spanish Armada by the hand of the English) >and > > came back 3 years later bringing supplies. When they returned, all they > > found was the inhabitants tools, huts, etc. and a tree with "CROATOAN" > > carved in it. Raliegh did say to leave a message if they moved. He >looked > > up and down the mainland coast but found no one but a group of Indians >with > > lighter hair than the other local tibes. Does anyone know what happened >to > > the English settlers? > > > > Matt > > Porter > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 21 Jan 2000 06:41:03 PST Amen. Brother, amen. You are preaching to the choir, and I am behind 100 percent. I try to take that approach in all of the history classes I teach. It can be very unpopular, but it cuases my students to THINK and then to discuss. A very effective tool, even if constant reminders about not imposing tidays mores and standards do raise some eyebrows from time to time. YMOS, Kevin >From: "Anne MacDonnald" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN >Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:47:42 -0600 > >Yeah, I know,.... > >what I have always found amusing is the way history is written, not only by >the victors, but lately the slant is >to write, or rather rewrite it to reflect poltical climes. > > >I have my own high school history book, in it it states >that the Japenese were winning in the Pacific, that was a factor in >deciding >to drop the A-bomb.... >In my 17 yr old son's that tidbit is conveniently left out. >I remember a conversation with my father, who was in intelligence during >that time, in the Army Air Corps. >He told me the same thing.... But now because we are buddy-buddy with >Japan, >we cannot say anthing that might be construed as 'wrong'. > >Another pet peeve of mine is that historians, and teachers, frequently >teach >history from a modern standpoint. Not either understanding or wishing to >look at it from the attitude of the times >whether or not, the attitudes were right or wrong, is totally immaterial, >it >was how they looked at things, and viewed the world during that time in >history. > >ooopps, how did that soapbox slide over here...sigh.... >anyway... annie > > > That is however what the Lumbee belive to be true. I did not mean to > > implie it was "The Truth" or the only answer to a very interesting > > histori- > > cal riddle,just one of many explanations! > > Humbly, > > M.Wolfe > > > > http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin > > > > The road to progress is the path of fools!!! > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My apology. Date: 21 Jan 2000 07:12:40 PST No reason for the formal apology. I think we all are flattered that you would ask our humble opinions. I f we aren't willing to share the wealth, are really being accurate in our "re-enactment"? YMOS, Kevin >From: "Matt Porter" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: My apology. >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:44:20 CST > >I'm sorry to fill the discussions with subjects that are irrelevant to the >Mountain Men. The only reason I posted those messages was because I knew >that someone here would know something about the topics. I didn't know >where else to turn. My apologies to all of you. > >Matt > Porter >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My apology. Date: 21 Jan 2000 09:11:56 -0800 Isecond your comments Kevin. Matt has nothing to apologize for. In fact he is to be commended for coming in. Bill C -----Original Message----- >No reason for the formal apology. I think we all are flattered that you >would ask our humble opinions. I f we aren't willing to share the wealth, >are really being accurate in our "re-enactment"? >YMOS, >Kevin > > > >>From: "Matt Porter" >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com >>Subject: MtMan-List: My apology. >>Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:44:20 CST >> >>I'm sorry to fill the discussions with subjects that are irrelevant to the >>Mountain Men. The only reason I posted those messages was because I knew >>that someone here would know something about the topics. I didn't know >>where else to turn. My apologies to all of you. >> >>Matt >> Porter >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rick_williams@byu.edu Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Guns of the Fur Trade Date: 21 Jan 2000 21:04:23 +0000 Firearms of the American West Volume 1 is very good. They detail some of the contracts that the AFC and ohters had with Pennsylvania and St. Louis based smiths. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of northwoods Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:33 PM -----Original Message----- >No one has mentioned "Firearms, Traps and Tools" which >was one of the references we used years ago. Has it >been discredited over time? nooooo! Still one of the best references ever compiled. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guns of the Fur Trade Date: 21 Jan 2000 15:02:18 -0700 It would be neat to see a AFC table of trade arms from 1828-1850 Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 21 Jan 2000 17:57:36 -0800 Yes gentlemen, history is written by the victors, and with a slant. Just check out our history. It is written that the land of where the US is was barren of human life. and just ripe for the taking. It was manifest destiny for the white European to take this land and abuse it as "HE" seemed fit. I must say that the French at least respected the native community in as much as they wanted them as partners not slaves. Respected them as a people not as a savage that did not have any sense. Enough of this soap box... Sorry gentlemen for the carrying on.... 3-Strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 21 Jan 2000 20:22:06 -0600 -----Original Message----- >Just check out our history. It is written that the land of where the US is was >barren of human life. and just ripe for the taking. Where is that written? I can't remember ever seeing it. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cultivation of camas Date: 21 Jan 2000 21:34:53 EST We are a little slow in responding with this, but we had to check with our friend and mentor, Bill Varga, to get the address for bulbs and for some extra information on camas. camassia quamash is a member of the lily family, a blue flowered plant resembling a hyacinth. They can be grown from seeds, but it may take as long as 2 or 3 years to get a bloom this way. It is much faster to grow the bulbs. Each bulb has platelets at the bottom of it, which form new bulbs. Camas can be cultivated, and has been grown in gardens for years, for its beautiful flowers,rather than as a food crop. Flowers bloom in June, and this is when bulbs are gathered, as the blue blossom assures that one is not gathering the white flowering death camas. It does grow along wetter areas in mountain meadows but these areas are dry as summer progresses, so it does not actually need bog conditions all year to grow, just a lot of water early in the season. kWe found it growing in what appeared to be fairly rich, heavy soil, PH around 7 or 8. If you want to try growing your own, here is a source where you can buy bulbs. They have five different types available, but camassia quamash is our Rocky Mt. native. The Daffodil Mart 7463 Heath Trail Gloucester Va. 23061 Phone #: 1-800-all-bulb address and above info. courtesy of Bill Varga, better known as Paco Solitaire. Its very delicious eaten raw, but after baking they are absoutely wonderful! It took three hours of steam baking to cook just a handful of bulbs. They were just like candy when they were done, Be careful, though. Too many will give diarrhea, just like when Lewis and Clark party gorged themselves on it. We flattened some cooked bulbs in the palms of our hands and sun dried them to take on our 5 day ride, and they were good, too, but nothing beats fresh baked. See ya on the trail, Crazy & Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 21 Jan 2000 21:34:38 -0600 huh what????!?!?!? and pray tell who were all those unwashed masses clad in leather living here before us white men 'discovered' this land... oh puhleeeeze....!!!! sigh... I have seen a lot of cow chips but this one takes the entire cake! grins.. anne ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 8:22 PM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne & Terri > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: January 21, 2000 8:01 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN > > > >Just check out our history. It is written that the land of where the US is > was > >barren of human life. and just ripe for the taking. > > Where is that written? I can't remember ever seeing it. > > northwoods > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: MtMan-List: Alafia Date: 21 Jan 2000 22:51:47 -0600 heya all; just wanted to telly everyone the Alafia is alive and well. Spent the day out there... oh my, the goodies to be had. I hear my new flintlock .40 shoots right fine... the sibling who gave it to me for Yule, is the one enjoying it... my surgeon tells me that if he hears of me belly dancing of shooting guns, he will personaly commit me... as if my insanity was ever in question to begin with... The weather today was magnificent... sunny, cool wind, out of the sun, but sorta warm... warm is a relative & highly subjective word with a native floridian. We think anything below 70 is going to give us frostbite. ::laughing:: I went to visit freinds, who are merchants, and to shop... I do things with fabrics and wool.. that is the best way to describe some of my interests... well I play a bit with leather and furs, but not often anymore [grins]. You guys are really missing something. [she says with a small evil smile] sigh... and I am sure I shall be missing a lot this summer. I had a most fortunate thing happen. The lady who does Heritage Clothiers, marvelous stuff. Sent me to another couple who live near where I am moving to go to school in Ohio, they will hook me up with the whole French and Indian circuit up there... oh my...how wonderful. I figure that since I am to be up in Yankeeland [as my dtr calls it] for a yr and a half, and the SCA up there is only around a bit, and the F&I thing is big up there..heck why not have a good time, and then there is Friendship. right down the Interstate... oh my! oh joy! I will have a brain fulll of learning when I head south to NOLA. But the Alafia, walked outside the RV to leave and the sky just took my breath away. I Live in a city, the ambient light takes away the beauty of the night sky. I had forgotten there was a Milky Way... The Lady Moon rose and blessed me with her light as I drove home, what a way to end a perfect day, one with family, and freinds doing something I love dearly. anne macdonnald ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 21 Jan 2000 22:14:43 -0800 No, but that is the way the land was treated and nor would I say that the natives were treated fairly and given far price for the lands that they lived on. They were never thrown off the land that was theirs. Of course they were the losers in the war. and the European's were the just victors. and of course every treaty that that was ratified by both the Indian and congress was followed though to the letter by the government of the United States. And Congress did take excellent care of the natives when it was decided that they would be the guardians of the Native Americans. And the Indians were always at fault when a treaty was broken even though they sat on a chunk of land that would not produce anything and there was no food provided for them when the government had stated they would supply the necessities of life if they stayed on the reservation...... Of course I am getting on the soap box again. What do I know, Just read the history that the white man has written and he will tell you that it was manifest destiny for the white race to dominate and tame the North American Continent from sea to shining sea. Of course what happened in 1492 to now were nothing just the lost of culture and lives over the number of years. There were only about 50 million humans on the North American Continent when Columbus started the invasion in North America. But there is as few as 1% left in the US. 3-strings. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 21 Jan 2000 22:15:39 -0800 true 3strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 22 Jan 2000 05:38:11 EST Hello there by the fire. There was some talk going on about pack type moc. I was a wonderin if any one out there had come across any first hand accounts of this kind of winter foot ware being used in the mountains during the fur trade. I've read about blanket scraps being warped around the feet in leu of sox, but nothing about a booty being sewn. But I have not read every thing in fact there are somehow question weather I can read at all. I have come across mention of Buffalo hair on winter mochas. But winter ware like so many other areas of the fur trade ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 22 Jan 2000 06:55:50 EST oops a durn miss fire, how did that thing get away from me before I was done with it? I loves these new finagled contraptions! Where was I? Oh ya; there just isn't a lot of first hand accounts that go in to much detail about winter ware. I have used buffalo and deer with hair on to make my winter moccasins. They have served me well for several years. I have found that they do dry slower then pack type. the hair holds the moisture and you can't take them apart like you can packs. In my opinion side seam hair high toped winter moccasins like the Indians in the Rockies were making. Would be the type used by the trappers. For one reason a lone buffalo, deer and elk were all around them. Blankets had to be shipped from Saint Leu then bought at mountain prices. Witch would you have used! See ya on the trail Crazy& Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 22 Jan 2000 14:11:46 -0800 GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: Hello there by the fire. There was some talk going on about pack type moc. I was a wondering if any one out there had come across any first hand accounts of this kind of winter foot ware being used in the mountains during the fur trade. grazing Coyote, I too can't recall right off where I have read it (perhaps in Journal of a Trapper or the L&C Journals) but I have read accounts of "Frontiersmen" setting down to make "stockings" along with moccasins in anticipation of winter and rough going. I've read about blanket scraps being warped around the feet in leu of sox, but nothing about a booty being sewn. That is the most common reference made. A simple wrapping of the feet with blanket strips. As I said, I have read where a party was making socks of what I would assume was blanketing. I have come across mention of Buffalo hair on winter mochas. But winter ware like so many other areas of the fur trade Where was I? Oh ya; > there just isn't a lot of first hand accounts that go in to much detail about > winter ware. That is one of the problems with recreating the history of our early frontiers. The every day chores and practices were taken for granted by the practitioners and just not written down in the detail we would like. I have used buffalo and deer with hair on to make my winter > moccasins. They have served me well for several years. I have found that they > do dry slower then pack type. the hair holds the moisture and you can't take > them apart like you can packs. In my opinion side seam hair high toped winter > moccasins like the Indians in the Rockies were making. I would not agree out of hand that what you have used was all that common especially among indians. Too many comments do exist about stuffing moccasins with hair or grass. From what I have read (and I can't give you references) it was more common for the northern indians, plains or whatever to make leather mocs and stuff them with some type of insulation rather than make mocs of buffalo robes or deer robs (with hair). I would imagine that leg wraps were made of such material but less common to see whole moccasins made thus. I don't even believe that today's Inuit and Canadian Northland Indians make such moccasins, not withstanding the use of seal or caribou robes as moccasin material. Would be the type used > by the trappers. For one reason a lone buffalo, deer and elk were all around > them. Blankets had to be shipped from Saint Leu then bought at mountain > prices. In any case whether they would use robes from the animals available or blankets, it is probably safe to say that both were done. Blanket material was not "that hard" to come by. And one does what one is used to doing if at all possible. Another consideration in how we dress versus how they dressed, comes into play when you consider how much time they spent outdoors and how much we do. You do get acclimated to extreme weather conditions if you live outdoors all year long. Having no heated house at nigh to go back to is required to achieve that. > Witch would you have used! I personally would have made oversized mocs of dressed hides (hair off) and made socks of blanketing were it available. Which is what I do now. If not then of course I would use animal robes/furs. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Date: 22 Jan 2000 18:38:14 -0800 Gentlemen, Have just finished a change of e-mail addresses, web site locations, etc. for personal and business pages. AT&T decided to change there web page size from 9 meg to 6 meg, didn't bother to inform it's users, just sent a bill. I had 8 meg on personal page and my bill for that page jumped from $19.95 to $32.75. So I jumped ship and went another direction leaving AT&T suck eggs. e-mail at: buck.conner@uswestmail.net personal page: http://www.pages.about.com/buckconner business page: http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ Thank you for your time, make needed changes for contacting me for personal or business. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Ailments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 22 Jan 2000 22:54:46 -0600 buck, GTE hit me with that 100 hr per month limit. Anything over the limit was a buck an hr. I started seeing $200/month internet bills, and I had a small buisness account. Not to mention the service was crappy. I signed with Earthlink.... have been a happy camper ever since... the best part is that when traveling, all I Need is a local number, which there seem to be ooodles of.... marvelous company. ----- Original Message ----- "American_Mountain_Men" ; "Fur Trade History Canada" ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2000 8:38 PM > Gentlemen, > > Have just finished a change of e-mail addresses, web site locations, etc. for personal and business pages. > > AT&T decided to change there web page size from 9 meg to 6 meg, didn't bother to inform it's users, just sent a bill. I had 8 meg on personal page and my bill for that page jumped from $19.95 to $32.75. So I jumped ship and went another direction leaving AT&T suck eggs. > > e-mail at: > buck.conner@uswestmail.net > > personal page: > http://www.pages.about.com/buckconner > > business page: > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > > Thank you for your time, make needed changes for contacting me for personal or business. > > > Later > Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ > ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ > ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory > "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" > Aux Ailments de Pays! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: MtMan-List: Powderhorn plugs Date: 23 Jan 2000 12:19:12 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_019B_01BF659C.0EF4EFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone on the list know when metal threaded inserts for powder horn = plugs became available? Is something that has been around for awhile or = a recent luxury? Thanks in advance,=20 YMOS "Dull Hawk" ------=_NextPart_000_019B_01BF659C.0EF4EFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone on the list = know when=20 metal threaded inserts for powder horn plugs became available? Is = something that=20 has been around for awhile or a recent luxury?
Thanks in advance, =
 
YMOS
"Dull=20 Hawk"
------=_NextPart_000_019B_01BF659C.0EF4EFE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Blanket socks (was: Winter mocs) Date: 23 Jan 2000 12:59:28 -0700 It's surprising that the mountain men would have worn blanket scraps wrapped= =20 around their feet, since voyageurs wore moccasins with 'a pair of blanket=20 socks=85two pair of socks are used with snow shoes...' ( Back, 314) David= =20 Thompson's memoirs also mention blanket socks. ( Thompson, Narrative, 68)=20 Blanket socks were usually sewn when they were needed, rather than brought= =20 from Montreal ready-made. (Tyrrell, 495 ; Back, 191) (Full references=20 available on request.) Perhaps the blanket scraps were actually blanket strips wrapped around the= =20 lower leg, like puttees? My husband used these, along with high moccasins,= =20 when he did snowshoeing years ago.=20 Your humble & obedinet servant, Angela Gottfred =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Mocassins and hair boots-possible fur trade ref. Date: 23 Jan 2000 14:14:32 -0600 Whoa, Capt. Check out "Our Boots", by Jill Oakes and Rick Riewe, U of Manitoba. This is THE source for current and past footwear of the Arctic cultures, worldwide. Jill has another book, just out in hardcover, "Spirit of Siberia", that is enough to make one cry..it is beautifully done. There is a summary footwear, past and present, in each. Construction details, drawings, photographs and text are the bulk of the contents, with historic perspectives and anecdotal information as well. Hair in, hair out, sealskins, polar bear, the local mutt, you name it, they made and make boots out of it. Some commercial 'yellow' hides show up as well, and are not well liked. Plans for clothing are sparse, as the research was funded in part by the Bata Shoe Museum, in Toronto. More on clothing is found in "Copper and Caribou Inuit Skin Clothing Production", by Jill. Our Boots, ISBN 0-500-27860-1 Spirit of Siberia, ISBN 1-55054-648-1 Copper and Caribou Inuit Skin Clothing Production, ISBN 0-600-12909-4 "Spirit of Siberia" is where I pulled my references to the circumpolar use of 'tipi-like' dwellings, without smoke flaps, some months ago, for the list. Most respectfully, Mike Rock ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 21 Jan 2000 18:24:02 -0800 > > Of course I am getting on the soap box again. What do I know, Just read the > history that the white man has written and he will tell you that it was > manifest destiny for the white race to dominate and tame the North American > Continent from sea to shining sea. Of course what happened in 1492 to now > were nothing just the lost of culture and lives over the number of years. > There were only about 50 million humans on the North American Continent when > Columbus started the invasion in North America. But there is as few as 1% > left in the US. Hmmm, 50 million natives when Columbus arrived. I have seen estimates of that number of persons for precontact populations, but other more realistic estimates range from just a couple of million people to around 10-15 million. And remember these are only estimates. No one knows how many people there were, or even how many tribes. Well folks, we're doing it again. Judging the actions of our ancestors by modern standards without looking objectively at what many consider the victims. Sure our ancestors, I say again, our ancestors, not WE, broke treaties with the Indians, but the Indians broke treaties too. I can't say as I blame the Indians for most of the times they broke those treaties , but it has to be remembered they did break treaties too. Our ancestors are portrayed as buying land for paltry sums of trade goods, but those trade goods had great value to the Indians. Guns, iron knives, axes, arrow and spear points were worth their weight in gold to stone age tribes, as were glass beads and a myriad of other objects they could not produce. We forget the relative value of those objects to the tribes, as opposed to the value placed on them by the white traders. I can only imagine the first Indians to trade with the white man laughing at the stupid white men who were willing to trade such priceless objects as guns, iron knives and axes for the paltry number of furs the Indians gave them in return. The value of an object is relative to ones ability to produce or procure that item. It's the old law of supply and demand. Our ancestors are portrayed as the devil incarnate in our dealings with the Tribes, but the Tribes, themselves, weren't angels either. Lets not forget what the various tribes did to one another. The Five Nations of Iroquois league completely wiped out the Erie Nation in the early 1700's. The Huron were all but wiped out by their Algonquin enemies in the 1680's. And those are only two instances that I can think of off the top of my head. You might also research the treatment of the Shawnee by the Iroquois. The Shawnee were defeated by the Iroquois, and the men were made to wear the apron worn by women as a means of the Iroquois exerting their authority over the Shawnee. Any Shawnee man caught wearing a man's clothing was immedialty killed by the Iroquois. Nice treatment huh. Whey aren't the descendents of the Shawnee protesting past inhumane treatment by the Iroquois? No money in it. Why aren't those instances of inhumanity by the tribes as widely protested as, or as widely known as our ancestors treatment of the Tribes? No money in it. The French had the same designs on Indian lands as the English, but they were much more subtle in their machinations. Sure, many French became intimately aquainted with the Tribes, and many Frenchmen intermarried and lived with the tribes, but the overall effect would have been the same. It might have taken longer, but disease, liquor, and the dependency on French trade goods would have doomed the native lifestyle and culture as sure as any conquering army. Oh yeah, the French Crown had the same intent, in regards to acquisition of Indian lands, as the English. Remember Celeron's trip down the Ohio River claiming the land for France and burying lead plates to insure that claim? The French looked upon that land as belonging to the Crown, not the Tribes but the French King. I seem to remember that France sent many emissaries to the Eastern Tribes in an attempt to convince them to fight for the French during the F&I War. The English did the same, but were more content to persuade the Tribes to remain neutral. Though the English did recruit the Eastern Tribes of the Iroquois League to fight for the British cause. Yep, the end result would have been the same. I'm tired of being portrayed as the bad guy and the "minorities" being portrayed as victims. It's easier to blame us because many of them are addicted to drugs and alcohol, or because they don't have good paying jobs when all they have to do is to take the personal responsibility to NOT drink that booze or take those drugs, and take the initiative to settle down to work on getting an education. BTW, my Anglo-Saxon heritage puts me in a minority too. Only 20 % of the people in this country are of Anglo- Saxon descent, but it isn't politically correct to recognize the hated white folks of Anglo-Saxon descent as such. Besides, there's not enough money in it to organize and depict our "minority" as victims of a greater minority. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN Date: 23 Jan 2000 18:53:36 -0600 -----Original Message----- >more realistic estimates range from just a couple of million people to around 10-15 >million. Some people who have studied the subject extensively would say less than a million for the area that now compromises N. America. >Well folks, we're doing it again. Judging the actions of our ancestors by >modern standards Some people enjoy doing this. It's a phase people go through. Well some folks never get through it if there education doesn't continue. hindsight is 20/20 and all that. As for everything else you said, don't waste your breath. It's something everyone has to figure out for themselves in my opinion... northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: bear hides Date: 23 Jan 2000 20:11:27 -0500 Two of my friends want to get black bear hides, "already tanned". One wants to make some accouterments for his rev-war soldier portrayal, the other just wants one to use in camp. If anyone can tell me where to find them it would be appreciated. Thank you John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: Address change(off topic) Date: 23 Jan 2000 19:17:18 CST Good day all, I was pleased to see that you all were not offended with my messages. Anyway my e-mail adress is changing to pmporter@up-link.com I just thought you all would like to know. Matt Porter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear hides Date: 23 Jan 2000 18:32:07 -0700 Check with Moscow Hide & Fur www.hideandfur.com Ron *************************************** cstmzd@ida.net $500 Daily prize..$25,000 Grand Prize http://www.suite101.com/join.cfm/74531 Get $20 for Free https://preview.x.com/new_account.asp?Referrer=referralsplus@homepage.com ****************************************** ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2000 6:11 PM > Two of my friends want to get black bear hides, "already tanned". One wants > to make some accouterments for his rev-war soldier portrayal, the other just > wants one to use in camp. If anyone can tell me where to find them it would > be appreciated. > > Thank you > > John (BIG JOHN) Hunt > Longhunter > Mountainman > southwest Ohio > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 23 Jan 2000 21:54:03 EST Hello, there by the fire. Throw another megabyte on-its cold out tonight. Thanks, Angela that's what I was looking for, some first hand accounts of that type moccasin being used. Granted, it wasn't by the American fur trappers, but I guess them Hudson Bay men and Voyageurs hit these Rocky Mts. too. Cap'n, in your comments about Indians not using hair on moccasins, I must disagree, although your use of hair to stuff into moccasins was a practice used. I use loose deer hair myself, but in the bottom of my buffalo hair on mocs, since the hair is worn thin after 7 years of winter use. In regards to winter mocs made of hair-on skins, there is actually quite a bit of documentation in their use by Indian tribes of the plains/plateau. Several examples are currently on display in museums, one of which is the Cody museum in WY. Merrithweather Lewis wrote of the Shoshones: The meckersons of both sexes are usually the same and are made of deer or elk or buffaloe skin dressed without the hair. Sometimes in winter they make them of buffalo skin dressed with the hair on and turn the hair inwards as the Mandans, Minetares and most of the nations do who inhabit the buffalow country. The mockerson is formed with one seem on the outer edge of the foot is cut open at the instep to admit the foot and sewed up behind. In this respect they are the same with the Mandans. Two Badger wrote in the U."M.O. Handbook, Nothing I have seen does a better job of keeping your feet warm than the insulating qualities of hair or fur inside the moccasins. ...I now use exclusively the side seam design.. Chronister, Landry, and Hansen believe they were more common and are more appropriate by date. Angela , Osborne Russel wrote, on a trappers dress, " his personal dress is a flannel or cotton shirt, { if he is fortunate enough to obtain one, if not antelope skin answers the purpose} or smoked buffaloe skin, leggings, a coat made of a blanket or buffaloe robe a hat or cap of wool, buffaloe or otter skin. his hose are pieces of blanket wrapped around his feet which are covered with a pair of moccasins made of dressed deer elk or buffalo skin with his long hair falling loosely over his shoulders completes his uniform." See ya on the trail, Crazy and Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Miscellaneous Date: 23 Jan 2000 22:19:39 -0500 (EST) Am sorry to hear about Charley Hanson's passing. Recently? Maybe God needed him up there for some more important work??? Flints: How does sharpening the edge with a small hand held V-shaped HRC 62 file block compare with knapping them? Did any of the forefathers try this? from Michigan ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear hides Date: 23 Jan 2000 20:30:34 -0800 Check with Joe Brandl at Absaroka tannery in DuBois WY. -----Original Message----- >Two of my friends want to get black bear hides, "already tanned". One wants >to make some accouterments for his rev-war soldier portrayal, the other just >wants one to use in camp. If anyone can tell me where to find them it would >be appreciated. > > Thank you > >John (BIG JOHN) Hunt >Longhunter >Mountainman >southwest Ohio > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 23 Jan 2000 19:30:58 -0800 GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > > Hello, there by the fire. Throw another megabyte on-its cold out > tonight. Thanks, Angela that's what I was looking for, some first hand > accounts of that type moccasin being used. Granted, it wasn't by the > American fur trappers, but I guess them Hudson Bay men and Voyageurs hit > these Rocky Mts. too. Gazing Coyote, Yes Angela, thank you for your as usual timely intervention. Whether they were HBC men or Voyageurs or Rocky Mt. Men, the original question dealt with whether hair on Buffalo hide mocs were a common item and thus authentic to the Rocky Mt. experience. My view's haven't changed appreciably. Such were made I'm sure, but I see no definitive evidence that such were common in winter, only "sometimes" made, in the manner of the Mandans. Cap'n, in your comments about Indians not using hair > on moccasins, I must disagree, although your use of hair to stuff into > moccasins was a practice used. I use loose deer hair myself, but in the > bottom of my buffalo hair on mocs, since the hair is worn thin after 7 years > of winter use. In regards to winter mocs made of hair-on skins, there is > actually quite a bit of documentation in their use by Indian tribes of the > plains/plateau. Several examples are currently on display in museums, one of > which is the Cody museum in WY. Are those examples collected during the Fur Trade? Merrithweather Lewis wrote of the Shoshones: > The meckersons of both sexes are usually the same and are made of deer or > elk or buffaloe skin dressed without the hair. Sometimes in winter they make > them of buffalo skin dressed with the hair on and turn the hair inwards as > the Mandans, Minetares and most of the nations do who inhabit the buffalow > country. Again to use your example, "sometimes". The mockerson is formed with one seem on the outer edge of the foot > is cut open at the instep to admit the foot and sewed up behind. In this > respect they are the same with the Mandans. This refers to the construction methods, doesn't it? Basically a side seam which was very common (as I understand it) to several tribes. > Two Badger wrote in the U."M.O. Handbook, Nothing I have seen does a > better job of keeping your feet warm than the insulating qualities of hair or > fur inside the moccasins. ...I now use exclusively the side seam design.. > Chronister, Landry, and Hansen believe they were more common and are more > appropriate by date. I can hardly refute the findings or conclusions of such learned scholars but I think that though common, tey certainly were not the only style of moc made by "whites" as evidence the several pictures showing otherwise. Two Badger's conclusion that Buffalo hair on winter mocs will serve well can not be refuted. Angela , Osborne Russell > wrote, on a trappers dress, " his personal dress is a flannel or cotton > shirt, { if he is fortunate enough to obtain one, if not antelope skin > answers the purpose} or smoked buffaloe skin, leggings, a coat made of a > blanket or buffaloe robe a hat or cap of wool, buffaloe or otter skin. his > hose are pieces of blanket wrapped around his feet which are covered with a > pair of moccasins made of dressed deer elk or buffalo skin with his long hair > falling loosely over his shoulders completes his uniform." Again using your chosen example, blanket material was used by the trapper (whether wrapped or sewn into a sock) to insulate his moccasins. Not buffalo hair on hides or even hair inside. Again such may very well have been done. The question is how common was it to do so. We certainly see the advantage and I see nothing wrong with someone making such a pair. The same holds true for side seam style mocs. Very easy to build and certainly common in much of the haunts of the trappers of old but most definitely not the only kind and perhaps not even the most prevalent. Which ever, for my purposes I find that a vamped pucker toe style made of brain tan with "made" wool "socks" in pairs inside serve quit well in lieu of buffalo or seal skins. See you on the trail. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 23 Jan 2000 20:51:41 -0700 > Two Badger wrote in the U."M.O. Handbook, Nothing I have seen does a > better job of keeping your feet warm than the insulating qualities of hair or > fur inside the moccasins. ...I now use exclusively the side seam design.. See ya on the trail, Crazy Hello Crazy, this is badgerhole. You and 2Badger are right. I made my first pair of side seam moccasins 1954 from an Indian tanned elk skin provided by my Uncle Bob. I have seen side seam moccasins made with buffalo hair turned in on the inside of the moccasins. I used to ice fish over in 2Badgers neck of the woods Learned to layer the moccasins deep enough to cut the cold. Gary Johnson one of the Crow historians talks about Lewis and Clark arriving in center seam moccasins. I think the company converted right away to side seams after coming out of the woods and onto the plains. The side seam does seem to make better winter gear for use by mountain men than any other moccasin design and is period correct from 1800-1850 around here. The Crows used them and the Blackfeet called them real moccasins. Badgerhole Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 23 Jan 2000 21:14:55 -0700 > Which ever, for my purposes I find that a vamped pucker toe style made > of brain tan with "made" wool "socks" in pairs inside serve quit well in > lieu of buffalo or seal skins. See you on the trail. I remain....> YMOS > Capt. Lahti' By vamped pucker toe do you mean made in the style of the Salish? Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 23 Jan 2000 21:11:44 -0800 Walt Foster wrote: > By vamped pucker toe do you mean made in the style of the Salish? > Badgerhole Badgerhole, I'm of the impression that the Salish style of moccasin is a side seam style. The gathered toe vamped moccasin is eastern. I've read that the word moccasin traditionally referred to a shoe with a puckered u-shaped 'vamp' over the instep. The name of the Great lakes Ojibway tribe means 'people of the puckered moccasins'. In the "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear" the side seam is the "Salish (Flathead) side seam" on page 48. Such a moccasin style does not have a vamp. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 23 Jan 2000 22:31:47 -0700 > In the "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear" the side seam is > the "Salish (Flathead) side seam" on page 48. Such a moccasin style does > not have a vamp. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Hello Capt. Lahti', Thanks for the use of such a fine old reference source. My son has mine so I have no idea of the page number I refer to. The moccasin I am talking about may be listed as Kuteni. Not sure about the spelling but they are a vamped center seam also. This is a very old moccasin pattern. I have a pair. They are much more complicated to make than the side seam of the northern plains, mountains of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. Plateau tribes used the side seam including the Uses who were considered mountain dwellers. The Blackfoot called side seems the real moccasin. Over here in the birth place of the American Mountain Man temperatures can get to 51 below or better in some places not counting the wind chill. Foot gear is essential. I think the side seam is easier to cope with to produce foot gear that will protect at these extremes of killer cold weather. And with the side seam being so common among the tribes in the Upper Missouri how could they not have been popular and practical in use by the mountain men themselves? Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 23 Jan 2000 22:08:44 -0800 Walt Foster wrote: > Thanks for the use of such a fine old reference source. My son has mine so > I have no idea of the page number I refer to. The moccasin I am talking > about may be listed as Kuteni. Badgerhole, It's Kootenai and on page 26. That tribe is closely related to the Salish if I am not mistaken (wouldn't be the first time if I am). I think they are an even farther north tribe than salish/flathead (if those two go together as I think they do). Not sure about the spelling but they are a > vamped center seam also. This is a very old moccasin pattern. I have a > pair. You got that right. Much more complicated to make. I won't even try to describe how they differ from a simple 'vamped pucker toe" design. Rather than just gathering up the toe, they have a funny cutout at the toe which has to be turned up and sewn to the vamp. They are much more complicated to make than the side seam of the > northern plains, mountains of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. Plateau tribes > used the side seam including the Uses who were considered mountain dwellers. > The Blackfoot called side seems the real moccasin. Every one was the first to invent everything. > > Over here in the birth place of the American Mountain Man temperatures can > get to 51 below or better in some places not counting the wind chill. Foot > gear is essential. I think the side seam is easier to cope with to produce > foot gear that will protect at these extremes of killer cold weather. I know by now that you are inordinately proud of your state (and rightfully so) and that it gets hotter and colder and blows more and etc. than any where else but it does get cold back in the lakes country of Northern US and Southern Canada. It also gets cold up north of you and a bit to the west. Other styles of moccasins were made to be used in those other cold areas. The side seam is a very easy moccasin to make but it does not have a corner on dealing with cold weather. And > with the side seam being so common among the tribes in the Upper Missouri > how could they not have been popular and practical in use by the mountain > men themselves? There are plenty of sketches showing Mt. Men wearing pucker toe style mocs. I'm just as sure that some wore side seams and probably other styles as well. I think it is a big mistake to hang your hat on one style. I think that is wrong and not what was done. I don't see pictures of many mt men dressed as indians and I read many first person accounts that come close to detailing how they dressed themselves and it all added up to them not changing from what they were used to doing back home. When cloth clothing wore out they made more of dressed skins but in the same style as was the custom. I would imagine that when they made moccasins they made them as they had always done back east (where they had all just recently come from). Some may have had indian women make them moccasins and some of them may have adopted the ways of manufacturing footgear similar to the local population but there are too many accounts of whites setting down to make more moccasins for themselves. You know how to make moccasins and have been doing it that way for Lord knows how long. If you come to Wa. and spend a few years near me are you going to change the way you make moccasins just because I make them different. I wouldn't. Just like the indians they lived and worked around these people are tradition bound as much or more so than anyone. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 24 Jan 2000 02:27:58 EST Hello in the camp, the fire still warm? A warm fire, good pair mochas and a buffalo robe to roll up in are my most favorite things come this time of year. Captain, didn't mean to get your guard hair up! The most important thing here that we do agree on is both types work. I have been making and using hair on moc. for at least the last 20 years. With only one regret and that was when they wore out. We do agree that they were there and if you need more documentation believe me I have it in my books some ware I just don't have the time right know to do the digging. I'm busy making a new set of snow shoes and raw hide waits for no man. The reason I asked the question about pack type was I have been seeing more and more people using them but when asked about documentation I never got any And I hadn't read any accept for Russell account of blanket wraps. That is a stretch from wraps to sewn booties two lairs thick. But I must admit I have not read ever thing, I'm still trying. It seems I need to do some on those Here Before Christ boys. The main thing here is keeping your feet warm and dry and your a happy camper. Both types of moc will do that. Captain one more question, now mind your guard hair. have you noticed with the pucker toe that it gathers snow on top and when the snow melts your feet get wet? See on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: furs for mountain men Date: 24 Jan 2000 01:17:01 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF6608.B7F017C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thought I would forward this to the list ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2000 11:47 PM Dear Sirs: WE are a fur trading company located in Okanogan county, Washington, = near the site of the first fur trading post in the northwest, built = 1811. We sell raw and tanned furs of most animals. Does your group = ever need any full skins, heads, scrap, or pieces for bags, etc. If you = do, please let us quote you prices, Sincerely, George Brady Cascade Biological Supply Box 535 Pateros, WA 98846 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF6608.B7F017C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thought I would forward this to the list
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: George = Brady=20
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2000 11:47 PM
Subject: furs for mountain men

Dear Sirs:
WE are a fur trading company located in = Okanogan=20 county, Washington, near the site of the first fur trading post in the=20 northwest, built 1811.  We sell raw and tanned furs of most = animals. =20 Does your group ever need any full skins, heads, scrap, or pieces for = bags,=20 etc.  If you do, please let us quote you prices,
Sincerely,
George Brady
Cascade Biological Supply
Box 535
Pateros, WA = 98846
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF6608.B7F017C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: furs for mountain men Date: 24 Jan 2000 02:43:32 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF6614.CDA0A6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, good forward on source of furs for mountain men. I question George on = "near the site of the first fur trading post in the northwest, built = 1811." The first fur trading post in the northwest was built by Manual = Lisa at the mouth of the Big Horn River 1807. Badgerhole ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF6614.CDA0A6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,
good forward on source of furs for = mountain=20 men.  I question George on "near the site=20 of the first fur trading post in the northwest, built 1811."  The = first=20 fur trading post in the northwest was built by Manual Lisa at the = mouth=20 of the Big Horn River 1807. =20 Badgerhole
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF6614.CDA0A6A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 24 Jan 2000 09:27:34 -0800 GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > > Hello in the camp, the fire still warm? > > A warm fire, good pair mochas and a buffalo robe to roll up in > are my most favorite things come this time of year. Captain, didn't mean to > get your guard hair up! The most important thing here that we do agree on is > both types work. Gazeing Coyote, If you did it didn't stand up all that much. The reason I asked the question about pack type was I have been seeing > more and more people using them but when asked about documentation I never > got any And I hadn't read any accept for Russell account of blanket wraps. > That is a stretch from wraps to sewn booties two lairs thick. Admittedly finding documentation that talks to exact construction methods for such things is nie on to impossible. I won't go so far as to say that wool booties made thus were ever made. When they talk of setting down to make socks and even moccasins, we just do not know how they did it. Anything we come up with is speculation and at best close because of peripheral evidence. And such items of clothing do not last and pass the test of time. The design is quit old but not necessarily a design used for inner foot wear. So more speculation. Let us leave it at this. If you do not feel comfortable making something like that which you can not document to your own satisfaction that's fine. I am comfortable enough with what I am doing to go ahead and continue. I will advocate it as a more suitable alternative than wearing rubber packs with felt pack liners or even using manufactured felt pack liners and will not say that it is documented as totally authentic (only in the context of using wool blanketing to make moccasin liners which is documentable). I can live with that. Captain one more question, now mind your > guard hair. > have you noticed with the pucker toe that it gathers snow on top and when the > snow melts your feet get wet? Hasn't happened yet. I have found that though the soles of my feet may feel damp, the upper part of the moccasin not only doesn't get wet, my feet don't feel wet or even damp above the soles. I am careful not to have a serious buildup of snow on the tops of my feet when I stand next to a fire. The vamp of my moc is leather topped with red trade wool. Hope that explains it. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: bear hides THANKS Date: 24 Jan 2000 12:30:22 -0500 Thanks to all who gave reference`s on where to get bear skins. Should be able to fine whats needed there. Again thanks John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #455 Date: 24 Jan 2000 12:02:18 -0500 Angela, Why does the text of your message contain all those equal signs and number 20s? I'm curious. HBC >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:59:28 -0700 >From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Blanket socks (was: Winter mocs) > >It's surprising that the mountain men would have worn blanket scraps wrapped= >=20 >around their feet, since voyageurs wore moccasins with 'a pair of blanket=20 >socks=85two pair of socks are used with snow shoes...' ( Back, 314) David= >=20 >Thompson's memoirs also mention blanket socks. ( Thompson, Narrative, 68)=20 >Blanket socks were usually sewn when they were needed, rather than brought= >=20 >from Montreal ready-made. (Tyrrell, 495 ; Back, 191) (Full references=20 >available on request.) > >Perhaps the blanket scraps were actually blanket strips wrapped around the= >=20 >lower leg, like puttees? My husband used these, along with high moccasins,= >=20 >when he did snowshoeing years ago.=20 > >Your humble & obedinet servant, >Angela Gottfred > **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #455 Date: 24 Jan 2000 12:21:50 -0600 I didn't get this on Angela's original post. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 24 Jan 2000 13:33:40 -0700 For what it's worth, here's some info I dug out of my notes: "Their [Assiniboine Indians'] shoes, as well as those of the Crees, are always made of buffalo leather the hair turned inwards which serves them as socks." John Macdonnell, Red River, 1797 (Wood & Thiessen, 90) The Assiniboines (aka Stoneys, Nakoda) were quite far-ranging; they have a reserve in the foothills of the Rockies, about 20 mi east of Banff. "[I hope you] will have the goodness to get whatever Leather you can spare made up into serviceable shoes--part for Summer and part for Winter--" letter to Robert McVicar, HBC, 1820 (Back, 333) "...get all the Leather that can be collected at St. Mary's, Fort de Pinette & Colvile House made up into Winter Shoes..." 1821 (Simpson, 278) Of course, this doesn't tell us how the 'winter shoes' differed from the 'summer shoes'; it might have just been a difference in height, and nothing to do with hair. Thanks for the Osborne Russell quote; now I'm wondering why he didn't use blanket socks. No wife? No sewing skills? Or perhaps the blanket scraps were quicker to dry than socks. Moccasins with puckered toes & vamps weren't restricted to the east; a pair was collected in Ft. Chipewyan, in Northern Alberta, in 1859 (McCormack, _Northwind_, 71). This style is also shown in Peter Rindisbacher's paintings of Natives from the Winnipeg area c. 1822. Although I haven't looked into it in detail, this style seems to be associated with the Cree, Canada's largest & most widespread Native group. Crees were closely associated with Canadian fur traders from the beginning of the trade on Hudson's Bay--if not earlier! Oh, and the Kootenay/Kutenai/Ktunaxa traditionally did go quite far north, as far as the area of the Rockies just west of Jasper, Alberta. I don't recall if the Inland Salish also went that far. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 24 Jan 2000 17:55:00 -0600 > > I don't see pictures of many mt men dressed as indians and I read many > first person accounts that come close to detailing how they dressed > themselves and it all added up to them not changing from what they were > used to doing back home. When cloth clothing wore out they made more of > dressed skins but in the same style as was the custom. I would imagine > that when they made moccasins they made them as they had always done > back east (where they had all just recently come from). > With that in mind Cap'n, what would a trader working for one of the companies, fresh from the flats wear? I am working on a set of fur in moccasins, but I also have a set of leather soled, all leather boots that I wear about the house when I'm working and hunting. These would be "Jeff Davis" boots or Civil War era brogans. I know they aren't authentic, but they're serving until I get my moccasins made. I knocked off some pucker toes, but the leather was too thin to be much more than sleep wear =). I'm hoping to get some hair-on buffalo scraps to make into winter mocs. NW Missouri doesn't get that cold, we seldom get below -30 with wind, but I'm hoping to head a little further north and west and try my hand at camping. Reckon warmer footware would be advisable. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 24 Jan 2000 17:13:27 -0800 farseer wrote: > > With that in mind Cap'n, what would a trader working for one of the > companies, fresh from the flats wear? Farseer, There is a good article in BOB (don't remember which volume) on clothing of the fur trade by a couple guys that did their homework. Many other paintings and such of a particular time will show what the common fashion of civilized folk was. As to your question, it depends on what year so it is hard to be specific (even if I had the knowledge to be that specific) but I would imagine that if you had on a linen shirt under a "fitted" frock coat with the shirt tucked into breeches or pantaloons of wool, linen, canvas, or indian dressed hides, with either knee socks or no shocks showing and had on all leather shoes or boots of the period or perhaps even moccasins you would be dressed as a typical trading post factor. I am working on a set of fur in > moccasins, but I also have a set of leather soled, all leather boots that I > wear about the house when I'm working and hunting. These would be "Jeff > Davis" boots or Civil War era brogans. I know they aren't authentic, but > they're serving until I get my moccasins made. I knocked off some pucker > toes, but the leather was too thin to be much more than sleep wear =). It is not that hard to attach a separate sole piece to the bottoms of your pucker toes. The originals were not thickly soled either. Just got to get used to walking on bare feet. I'm > hoping to get some hair-on buffalo scraps to make into winter mocs. NW > Missouri doesn't get that cold, we seldom get below -30 with wind, but I'm > hoping to head a little further north and west and try my hand at camping. > Reckon warmer footware would be advisable. It surely does help. Hope I answered your question. You'll excuse me but I have to go throw some chile and corn bread together for supper. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 24 Jan 2000 19:36:57 -0700 It's been an interesting discursion on winter moccasins and the type of discussion that is EXACTLY suited for this forum. Since I wear a pair of "shoe pack" type winter moccasins, I'll give my thoughts on the topic. No, I haven't been able to document their use in the Rocky Mountains circa 1805-1840. That is I haven't seen them in a Miller painting, nor on Ashleys' trade records. Jed Smith hasn't mentioned them in his diary, nor Russell or Ferris or Leonard, etc. It is known that shoepacks were worn in the East. (Check Bakers videos, He'll provide documentation.) In Ellen Gehret's book "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" she mentions that stocking were often made either by knitting or by sewing pieces cut from blanket. It's not to difficult to imagine using those blanket stockings inside a shoe pack. This is where the use of a historical "persona" comes into play. If a fellow lived in rural Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee etc in the middle to late 1700's and spent time in the woods, it is likely that he learned to make his own footwear. The predominant style moccasin of the area or a shoepack would be a logical choice. If that same fellow traveled westward he took that knowledge with him. If he found his way to the mountains and was in need of proper warm winter footwear, he could either trade with the friendlies or make his own according to his knowledge. I feel either would be correct and authentic. Too bad Miller didn't hang around over the winter, maybe we'd know a little more. Happy Trails Teton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 24 Jan 2000 20:53:41 -0600 Thanks Cap'n. Don't want to stay a flatlander forever =) Aquiring all the right bitz is gonna take some time I suppose. That's part of the joy of this! I've done medieval re-enactments for a number of years (not historically accurate, hysterically accurate is more the like) and I have some things that will pass, barely, but most of it's for other time periods. Much obliged to you. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of R Lahti > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 7:13 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs > > > farseer wrote: > > > > With that in mind Cap'n, what would a trader working for one of the > > companies, fresh from the flats wear? > > Farseer, > > There is a good article in BOB (don't remember which volume) on clothing > of the fur trade by a couple guys that did their homework. Many other > paintings and such of a particular time will show what the common > fashion of civilized folk was. As to your question, it depends on what > year so it is hard to be specific (even if I had the knowledge to be > that specific) but I would imagine that if you had on a linen shirt > under a "fitted" frock coat with the shirt tucked into breeches or > pantaloons of wool, linen, canvas, or indian dressed hides, with either > knee socks or no shocks showing and had on all leather shoes or boots of > the period or perhaps even moccasins you would be dressed as a typical > trading post factor. > > I am working on a set of fur in > > moccasins, but I also have a set of leather soled, all leather > boots that I > > wear about the house when I'm working and hunting. These > would be "Jeff > > Davis" boots or Civil War era brogans. I know they aren't > authentic, but > > they're serving until I get my moccasins made. I knocked off > some pucker > > toes, but the leather was too thin to be much more than sleep wear =). > > It is not that hard to attach a separate sole piece to the bottoms of > your pucker toes. The originals were not thickly soled either. Just got > to get used to walking on bare feet. > I'm > > hoping to get some hair-on buffalo scraps to make into winter mocs. NW > > Missouri doesn't get that cold, we seldom get below -30 with > wind, but I'm > > hoping to head a little further north and west and try my hand > at camping. > > Reckon warmer footware would be advisable. > > It surely does help. Hope I answered your question. You'll excuse me but > I have to go throw some chile and corn bread together for supper. I > remain... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Date: 24 Jan 2000 19:17:22 -0800 farseer wrote: > > Thanks Cap'n. > Much obliged to you. Farseer, Your welcome and any time. Glad to share my biases and prejudice's along with my considered opinions any time. Nobody came to the Shining mountains a Hiverano. If you always look at your self as a pilgrim you will continue to grow. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders Webpage Date: 24 Jan 2000 23:04:59 -0800 (PST) Hallo For those what keep track of such things, the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders have relocated their webpage to.... http://members.xoom.com/HogHeavenML Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Stefely" Subject: MtMan-List: Croatan response Date: 25 Jan 2000 12:13:52 PST Greetings to all, I have monitored this list for a number of years and have been, in turn, informed, entertained, chagrined and amused. I've never been moved to express an opinion, offer a suggestion or congratulate a particularly insightful comment until now. I have no idea as to the identity of "J.D.", but his assessment of the progression of history in the New World was definitely on the mark. If I understood him correctly our ancestors were the ones guilty of any and all wrongdoing, regardless of whether they were Europeans, Native Americans or any other ethnic group. No one today should be expected to be held accoutable (or need feel guilty) for "the sins of the father". And if claiming "victim" status is valid then I, being of Slavic descent, should expect to be entitled to all manner of sympathy, apology and recompense from the Italian community. After all, the Romans totally dominated my ancestors, enslaving thousands of them. I am even forced to bear the stigma of the very name Slav (from the Latin designation for "slave"). Oh, shame of shame! Imagine what this does to one's self esteem! Now, is this ridiculous or what? And, as J.D. also mentioned, the mores of the time determined what was considered right and wrong, regardless of what we may think today. This neither excuses nor condones any certain behaviour. History is just that - history. Better to study and learn from it than hold it over anyone's head as some sort of sword of Damocles. J.D. also made another astute observation in the organized, militaristic, destructive force of the Iroquois. Research, research, research! They and other Native Americans were certainly not averse to annihilating entire tribes. More than one group was sent to extinction by their fellow inhabitants after 1492, and it is anyone's guess as to how many had been before that date. All humans possess their attributes and their shortcomings; the Native Americans are no exception. It is as inaccurate to portray them as "bloodthirsty redskins" as it is to view them as "Noble Savages" or "Lo, the poor Indian". I realize that this subject is off topic, but I wanted to commend J.D. and to remind folks that history is history. One should learn from it but unless one was personally involved in it (i.e. recent history) there is no reason to feel guilty about it or use it to garner pity. S.G. Stefely ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Croatan response Date: 25 Jan 2000 17:18:13 -0600 -----Original Message----- >History is just that - history. Better to study and learn from it than hold >it over anyone's head as some sort of sword of Damocles. One thing I've noticed from my meager learning is that it has only been a very few select individuals with certain personality traits throughout history which have primarily caused history as we know it to occur as it has. The rest of the population of the planet has only been "along for the ride". >J.D. also made another astute observation in the organized, militaristic, >destructive force of the Iroquois. Not only that, but the entire "league of nations" as it was known was nothing more than a military alliance formed for the advantage of member tribes, to the disadvantage of non-member tribes. It is interesting to note that the animosity between some of the member tribes before the formation of the league continued on after formation. But the benefit of being united greatly outweighed the differences they had. >I realize that this subject is off topic, but I wanted to commend J.D. and >to remind folks that history is history. One should learn from it but >unless one was personally involved in it (i.e. recent history) there is no >reason to feel guilty about it or use it to garner pity. Better yet, it would be wise to try and look ahead to determine what will people be saying in the future about our times, and critisizing us for our inaction, indifference, or partisipation in. Lets try and leave a legacy our descendants will be proud of. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Blanket socks (was: Winter mocs) Date: 25 Jan 2000 18:31:54 EST Angela, I just found one more reference -"Having wrapped my feet up in clean pieces of blanket {the only stockings worn in the interior} and put on a pair of clean dry moccasins, I bethought me of the poor dogs, and taking down some raw fish, went out to feed them." This quote by Paul Kane, in Wanderings of an Artist Among the Indians of North America. He traveled in Canada with HBC in 1845--48. You are quite the researcher on the North country, we learn a lot from you. Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books Date: 25 Jan 2000 18:38:39 EST Hello, all; Does anyone know of a web site where these two books are in print on-line? Journal of Rudolph Friederich Kurz, and F. Laroque's journal? Dean Rudy, if you read this, I REALLY want these on the A.M.M. web site! Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: MtMan-List: LFFT Has Moved Date: 25 Jan 2000 16:31:15 -0700 For those of you with links. The Lewis Fork Free Trappers website has moved to: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books Date: 25 Jan 2000 19:15:04 -0600 have you looked at the Gutenburg Project site? it is worht a shot... got to http://www.askjeeves.com and ask where it is... lost my bookmarks in the great crash... ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 5:38 PM > Hello, all; > Does anyone know of a web site where these two books are in print > on-line? > > Journal of Rudolph Friederich Kurz, and F. Laroque's > journal? > Dean Rudy, if you read this, I REALLY want these on the A.M.M. web > site! > Jill > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books Date: 25 Jan 2000 19:16:06 -0500 > Does anyone know of a web site where these two books are in print > on-line? > > Journal of Rudolph Friederich Kurz, and F. Laroque's > journal? I would suggest starting with www.amazon.com Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books Date: 25 Jan 2000 18:11:58 -0600 Jill, I've known Dean to post every legal transcription of appropriate text anyone has ever provided to him. The best way to get what we want is to do it and post it for everyone else to enjoy. If you want something done right you've got to do it yourself. John... At 06:38 PM 1/25/00 -0500, you wrote: >=A0=A0 Hello, all; >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Does anyone know of a web site where= these two books are in print=20 >on-line? >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Journal of= Rudolph Friederich Kurz,=A0=A0 and F. Laroque's=20 >journal? >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Dean Rudy, if you read this, I REALLY want these on= the A.M.M. web=20 >site! >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Jill > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Croatan response Date: 25 Jan 2000 19:37:59 -0600 speaking of history.... on my refrigerator is a very atute observation. ''well behaved women never make history'' - Eleanor Roosevelt. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 5:18 PM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Stefely > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Date: January 25, 2000 2:15 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Croatan response > > > > >History is just that - history. Better to study and learn from it than > hold > >it over anyone's head as some sort of sword of Damocles. > > > One thing I've noticed from my meager learning is that it has only been a > very few select individuals with certain personality traits throughout > history which have primarily caused history as we know it to occur as it > has. The rest of the population of the planet has only been "along for the > ride". > > >J.D. also made another astute observation in the organized, militaristic, > >destructive force of the Iroquois. > > Not only that, but the entire "league of nations" as it was known was > nothing more than a military alliance formed for the advantage of member > tribes, to the disadvantage of non-member tribes. It is interesting to note > that the animosity between some of the member tribes before the formation of > the league continued on after formation. But the benefit of being united > greatly outweighed the differences they had. > > >I realize that this subject is off topic, but I wanted to commend J.D. and > >to remind folks that history is history. One should learn from it but > >unless one was personally involved in it (i.e. recent history) there is no > >reason to feel guilty about it or use it to garner pity. > > Better yet, it would be wise to try and look ahead to determine what will > people be saying in the future about our times, and critisizing us for our > inaction, indifference, or partisipation in. Lets try and leave a legacy our > descendants will be proud of. > > northwoods > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books Date: 25 Jan 2000 19:36:43 -0700 Jill, I have acopy of Larocques journal if you'd like to borrow it. Todd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter Mocs Date: 25 Jan 2000 22:14:03 -0700 Hello Capt. Lahti', Sorry I had to step away from the campfire for awhile but it give me time to further consider the conversation about mocs particularly winter mocs in relation to the mountain man from 1800-1850 inclusive. Your right in your post. I am inordinately proud of the state that give birth to the American Mountain Men. Montana, Wyoming and Idaho are at the core of that movement from the time of John Coulter and his sojourn 1807-1808 that defines the extent of his winter camp and set the standard for furture mountain men to set their mark in experience. I think the type of moc worn closer to 1800 is represented on page 50 item D and then by item C on the same page. For any of you who have the Crazy Crow Trading Post you can see a picture of both types of mocs side by side. A 3rd moc A on the same page shows a 1850 style that can be used with 12 ought beads and be authentic for the period by documentation through Fort Union Trading Post. Prior to 1850 8 ought beads and bigger were in use. Both of the early style mocs can be obtained in kits with patterns for under 20 bucks and a catalogue can be obtained at 1 800 786 6210 or email crazycrow@texoma.net This is a good source for some mountain man supplies. And a good place to start for the beginning mountain man who wants to learn to make their own foot gear. It is a big step in going from a first pair of everyday mocs to winter mocs but practice will allow the maker to scale the operation and get a good looking fit. Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter Mocs Date: 26 Jan 2000 02:46:30 -0600 Where did you get your information on beads? John... At 10:14 PM 1/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >Hello Capt. Lahti', > >Sorry I had to step away from the campfire for awhile but it give me time= to >further consider the conversation about mocs particularly winter mocs in >relation to the mountain man from 1800-1850 inclusive.=A0 Your right in= your >post.=A0=A0 I am inordinately proud of the state that give birth to the= American >Mountain Men.=A0 Montana, Wyoming and Idaho are at the core of that= movement >from the time of John Coulter and his sojourn 1807-1808 that defines the >extent of his winter camp and set the standard for furture mountain men to >set their mark in experience. > >I think the type of moc worn closer to 1800 is represented on page 50 item= D >and then by item C on the same page.=A0 For any of you who have the Crazy= Crow >Trading Post you can see a picture of both types of mocs side by side.=A0= =A0 A >3rd moc A on the same page shows a 1850 style that can be used with 12= ought >beads and be authentic for the period by documentation through Fort Union >Trading Post.=A0 Prior to 1850 8 ought beads and bigger were in use. > >Both of the early style mocs can be obtained in kits with patterns for= under >20 bucks and a catalogue can be obtained at 1 800 786 6210 or email >crazycrow@texoma.net > >This is a good source for some mountain man supplies.=A0 And a good place= to >start for the beginning mountain man who wants to learn to make their own >foot gear.=A0 It is a big step in going from a first pair of everyday mocs= to >winter mocs but practice will allow the maker to scale the operation and= get >a good looking fit. >Badgerhole > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Born Subject: MtMan-List: gloves Date: 26 Jan 2000 06:57:55 -0700 I've learned a lot from all the post about winter moc's but what about the hands. Does anyone have any good info. on what the western trapper was wearing on his hands during the winter? Cheers, Don ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gloves Date: 26 Jan 2000 06:12:44 PST I am not sure on the accuracy part, but I have seen several pair of beaver fur mittens kined with red trade wool and elk hide palms. Run a strip of rawhide across the shoulders and you have a pair of "idiot" mittens. YMOS, Kevin >From: Don Born >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: gloves >Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:57:55 -0700 > >I've learned a lot from all the post about winter moc's but what about the >hands. Does anyone have any good info. on what the western trapper was >wearing on his hands during the winter? > Cheers, > Don > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gloves Date: 26 Jan 2000 09:47:27 -0600 the next question.... ::laughing:: did his mom teach him to do this? [sorry, I just had to do this] to be honest, it seems like a logical thing... and it is what I did in colorado, when I Lived there in the high country... I had a pair of down ski mittens... later I made a pair fo brain tan mittens, and lined them with wool mittens, worked much better.... In fact, I too had a braided leather strip, I used to pull the leather ones off, to do things that required a bit of dexterity... mostly, though I sat on my horse and shivered. . Run a strip of > rawhide across the shoulders and you have a pair of "idiot" mittens. > > YMOS, > Kevin > > > > >From: Don Born > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: hist_text@xmission.com > >Subject: MtMan-List: gloves > >Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:57:55 -0700 > > > >I've learned a lot from all the post about winter moc's but what about the > >hands. Does anyone have any good info. on what the western trapper was > >wearing on his hands during the winter? > > Cheers, > > Don > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne MacDonnald" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gloves Date: 26 Jan 2000 09:49:25 -0600 I am not sure where I saw it....have been reading stuff on florida history during that time period again... but even down here, it got downright cold... there was mention somewhere, [sigh, think I saw it in a book at USF recently] that they wrapped blanket strips around the hands leaving the fingers free. my next thought was what about frostbite... ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 7:57 AM > I've learned a lot from all the post about winter moc's but what about the > hands. Does anyone have any good info. on what the western trapper was > wearing on his hands during the winter? > Cheers, > Don > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: McClenahan & Loggins Date: 26 Jan 2000 08:50:05 -0700 (MST) Anyone know if these two are still bulding Guns etc, and how they can be reached. E-mail, URL, or Snail Mail Addy, Phone # Thanks -- Penny Pincher-NMLRA Field Representative In The West Don't Forget the NMLRA Winter National Shoot 2000 February 16-21 2000 @ The Ben Avery Shooting Facility-Phoenix Arizona http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb750171 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Sweeneys Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gloves Date: 26 Jan 2000 08:32:56 +0000 Hi Don. In the Mountain Man's Sketch book, by Mr. Hanson, there are two patterns that might be of interest to you. First is a pair of Shoshoni smoked buckskin gloves. Then on the following page it shows Canadian Indian mittens made of red wool blanketing. I hope this helps. See ya in the mountains. YMOS, Mick Sweeney Sierra Foothills Don Born wrote: > I've learned a lot from all the post about winter moc's but what about the > hands. Does anyone have any good info. on what the western trapper was > wearing on his hands during the winter? > Cheers, > Don > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: John Kramer Date: 26 Jan 2000 11:08:58 -0700 Where did you get your information on beads? John... by documentation through Fort Union Trading Post. Prior to 1850 8 ought beads and bigger were in use. Walt Foster Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gloves Date: 26 Jan 2000 11:01:05 -0800 On Wed, 26 January 2000, The Sweeneys wrote: > Hi Don. > > In the Mountain Man's Sketch book, by Mr. Hanson, there are two patterns > that might be of interest to you. First is a pair of Shoshoni smoked > buckskin gloves. Then on the following page it shows Canadian Indian mittens > made of red wool blanketing.............. Look at the number of books on Pennsylvania clothing, one of them shows wool knit half mittens (fingers uncovered) with an outer pair of wool blanket ones full size mittens and a cord attached to go over the neck. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Ailments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tipis@mediaone.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: John Kramer Date: 26 Jan 2000 16:07:19 -0500 Someone tell me where I saw that great article by Allen Chronister on beads of the period. Was it in Muzzle loader or the Muzzle Blasts? Great up to date information on beads and he also, or that is where it is, the new edition of Buckskinning 8. Linda Holley Walt Foster wrote: > Where did you get your information on beads? > > John... > > by documentation through Fort Union Trading Post. Prior to 1850 8 ought > beads and bigger were in use. > > Walt Foster > Park City, Montana > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Traders Row Date: 26 Jan 2000 17:38:00 -0500 Remember, anyone is invited to email me any items they have for sale and I will post them on my Traders Row page on my web site. This is for the Mountain Man List, ONLY, and will not be give to other lists. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/trader.htm Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear hides Date: 26 Jan 2000 17:31:29 -0700 John, I can get you some black bear hides, let me know what size and wheather or not you need the head and all feet attached Thanks Joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Allen Chronister on beads Date: 26 Jan 2000 21:06:01 EST I'll bet you are thinking of his article, Beyond the Wall, in Muzzleloader, March/April, 1993. Crazy and Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Janzen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gloves Date: 26 Jan 2000 23:31:10 -0500 Just finished Eckert's book on the French and Indian war(s) and he specifically mentions the Canucks using strings run up through the sleeves to keep their mittens attached citing "the men, knowing that the loss of their mittens would mean certain frostbite, kept them with a string attached so they would not be lost..." (paraphrasing). Seems handy to me as mittens are better than gloves to keep the hands warm, and being able to slip them off for fine tasks, then slip them back on again makes sense. I'm for mittens. Can anyone document the trigger finger style mittens where you can stick a finger out? Regards, Kid! -----Original Message----- >Look at the number of books on Pennsylvania clothing, one of them shows wool knit half mittens (fingers uncovered) with an outer pair of wool blanket ones full size mittens and a cord attached to go over the neck. > >Later >Buck Conner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gloves Date: 26 Jan 2000 22:28:50 -0800 I learned this trick as a dumb kid in snow country, My Momma didn't raise no fool..... All Kidding aside, this is a very practical way to keep from loosing fingers due to frostbite...... hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tipis@mediaone.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Allen Chronister on beads Date: 27 Jan 2000 06:37:44 -0500 That maybe the one. Thanks. Have to go back to my issues and see. Definitely will cut the work back of plowing through it. Thanks. Linda GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > I'll bet you are thinking of his article, Beyond the Wall, in > Muzzleloader, March/April, 1993. Crazy and Jill > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matthew Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 14:04:35 -0600 Hi all! I'm just so excited, like a giddy school boy. We are having are first snow down here in Arkansas. They say that we should get about a foot by tomorrow. I just wanted to share my excitement with you all. Matt Porter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 12:48:06 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Matthew Porter wrote: > I'm just so excited, like a giddy school boy. We are having are first > snow down here in Arkansas. They say that we should get about a foot by > tomorrow. I just wanted to share my excitement with you all. Matt.... with luck... you'll get our snow too... Looking forward to the greenup.... Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary McLeod" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 15:56:34 EST Baaa-Humbug!!!, Old bones in Michigan >From: "Matthew Porter" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: first snow >Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:04:35 -0600 > >Hi all! > I'm just so excited, like a giddy school boy. We are having are first >snow down here in Arkansas. They say that we should get about a foot by >tomorrow. I just wanted to share my excitement with you all. > >Matt > Porter > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 16:33:50 -0600 We got a dose of sleet and freezing rain south of Ft Worth....would = trade for snow anyday. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 2:04 PM > Hi all! > I'm just so excited, like a giddy school boy. We are having are = first > snow down here in Arkansas. They say that we should get about a foot = by > tomorrow. I just wanted to share my excitement with you all. >=20 > Matt > Porter >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 15:13:08 -0800 Matthew Porter wrote: > > Hi all! > I'm just so excited, like a giddy school boy. We are having are first > snow down here in Arkansas. They say that we should get about a foot by > tomorrow. I just wanted to share my excitement with you all. Matt Porter, Well bless your little heart. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 15:16:35 -0800 Lee Newbill wrote: > Matt.... with luck... you'll get our snow too... > > Looking forward to the greenup.... > > Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee, Now don't be giving away our snow so quick. We're gona need it in a couple weeks so we don't have to wade in to camp through the mud that will follow. BTW, some of us are going in on Friday the 11th. Are you going to go in with us or wait till later in the day? I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 15:13:35 PST Got 6 inches here in Durant Oklahoma, temperature hovering around 25 degrees. Planning to put to use all I've learned about winter mocs tomorrow. Going out with the smoothbore for the last weekend of squirrel season. Worst thing about snow down here is it's just so damn wet. No matter how well you grease them, or how well you make them it's gonna get in. You boys in the high country shouldn't rain on our parade, snow like this only comes every 10 years or so. If I should freeze to a tree while I'm out, feel free to devide my gear come spring green up. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Ailments de Pays! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 15:09:18 -0800 (PST) Matt, We got it here in Oklahoma befor you did, if we didn't need the moisture, I'd just as soon you got our 5-12 in. with yours. grn --- Matthew Porter wrote: > Hi all! > I'm just so excited, like a giddy school boy. > We are having are first > snow down here in Arkansas. They say that we should > get about a foot by > tomorrow. I just wanted to share my excitement with > you all. > > Matt > Porter > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: Camping item of interest Date: 27 Jan 2000 18:37:56 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF68F5.A0DEDEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello the camp. Saw reference to Crazy Crow on the list and, by = coincidence, got their flyer in this afternoon. I don't know the quality = but they have listed a "iron skillet w/ folding handle. 9" diameter x 1" = deep, with a 5 1/4 inch long handle. The web site is www.crazycrow.com = and the item # is 5587-002-009. Quite a handy item to have. Long John ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF68F5.A0DEDEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF68F5.A0DEDEA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 19:47:54 -0500 Lanney, Grab Pendleton and c'mon up.. Winter camp starts next Thursday at Snake's place... We will build snow forts.. D Ratcliff wrote: > We got a dose of sleet and freezing rain south of Ft Worth....would trade for snow anyday. > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Matthew Porter > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 2:04 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: first snow > > > Hi all! > > I'm just so excited, like a giddy school boy. We are having are first > > snow down here in Arkansas. They say that we should get about a foot by > > tomorrow. I just wanted to share my excitement with you all. > > > > Matt > > Porter > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 19:00:55 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF68F8.D6A9E5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cliff, We'll do that very thing. You keep yer nose in the wind, and stay = warm. Be a helluva deal to have to argue with Austin over my share of = your gear. LP -----Original Message----- From: Chance Tiffie To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:14 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow =20 =20 Got 6 inches here in Durant Oklahoma, temperature hovering around 25 = degrees. Planning to put to use all I've learned about winter mocs = tomorrow.=20 Going out with the smoothbore for the last weekend of squirrel = season. =20 Worst thing about snow down here is it's just so damn wet. No = matter how=20 well you grease them, or how well you make them it's gonna get in. You boys in the high country shouldn't rain on our parade, snow = like=20 this only comes every 10 years or so. If I should freeze to a tree while I'm out, feel free to devide my = gear come=20 spring green up. =20 =20 =20 Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Ailments de Pays! =20 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com =20 =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF68F8.D6A9E5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cliff,
  We'll = do that very=20 thing.  You keep yer nose in the wind, and stay warm.  Be a = helluva=20 deal to have to argue with Austin over my share of your gear.=20 <VBG>
LP
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Chance Tiffie <bossloper@hotmail.com>
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 first snow

Got 6 inches here in Durant Oklahoma, = temperature hovering around 25
degrees. Planning to put to use = all I've=20 learned about winter mocs tomorrow.
Going out with the = smoothbore for=20 the last weekend of squirrel season. 
Worst thing about = snow down=20 here is it's just so damn wet.  No matter how
well you = grease them,=20 or how well you make them it's gonna get = in.
     You=20 boys in the high country shouldn't rain on our parade, snow like =
this=20 only comes every 10 years or so.
If I should freeze to a tree = while I'm=20 out, feel free to devide my gear come
spring green=20 up.



Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant,=20 OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Ailments = de=20 = Pays!

______________________________________________________
Ge= t=20 Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


---= -------------------
hist_text=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF68F8.D6A9E5E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Sweeneys Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Caps Date: 27 Jan 2000 17:54:26 +0000 Hello in the Camp, I was wondering if anyone in their reading has come across references to mountaineers wearing fur caps with leather visors, like the ones so popular in paintings, and at today's rendezvous. I like to wear a coonskin cap with visor in the winter, but would also like to accurately portray the Rocky Mountain Trapper. YMOS, Mick Sweeney Sierra Foothills ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Anyone around Payette Idaho? Date: 27 Jan 2000 18:11:49 -0800 (PST) Hi Got a query from the Payette Chamber of Commerce today looking for information on how to set up an event concurrent with their festival. If anyone is from the that area, or knows the local club contact point, I'd appreciate some info that I could pass back to them. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Calgary? Date: 27 Jan 2000 21:43:26 EST Angela... I'm doing some over nights in Calgary for the next month...are there any museums I should check out on a Saturday afternoon while I'm there?? Thanks, Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Camps n Snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 20:32:57 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, R Lahti wrote: > Now don't be giving away our snow so quick. We're gona need it in a > couple weeks so we don't have to wade in to camp through the mud that > will follow. BTW, some of us are going in on Friday the 11th. Are you > going to go in with us or wait till later in the day? I remain... Actually, this winter has been rather mild to us here on the west side of the Clearwater Range... I haven't had to call my nieghbor with his "cat" yet, the wee little tractor plow I have is working just fine. On the winter camp, I hope it goes a mite bit less wet than the last one I went on. Snow is good, rain is bad. I'm looking forward to testing out my winter mocs, new snowshoes, and the pair of hideous mittens I'm fashioning from notes out of Ken Grissom's "Buckskins & Blackpowder". Winter camping is a whole different twist. Think I'll also work on a new pair of drop front wool trousers as me leggings get a bit drafty in Feb. What time do you think you fellows will be arriving at Feather Creek on the 11th? Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: The Rocky Mountain College Date: 27 Jan 2000 20:44:13 -0800 (PST) Walt You fellows putting the "recreation of the Rocky Mountain College" on this year? Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Camps n Snow Date: 27 Jan 2000 21:18:32 -0800 Lee Newbill wrote: I'm looking forward to testing out > my winter mocs, new snowshoes, and the pair of hideous mittens I'm > fashioning from notes out of Ken Grissom's "Buckskins & > Blackpowder". Lee, Lots of things to test out and I'm looking forward to seeing what you have made along with seeing if all the advice I have given my "pilgrims" on what they need to do will take hold But leave the bales of straw home this time. Winter camping is a whole different twist. Think I'll also > work on a new pair of drop front wool trousers as me leggings get a bit > drafty in Feb. I use french cut breeches and wool leggings over my knee socks and winter mocs with lots of wool shirts. > > What time do you think you fellows will be arriving at Feather Creek on > the 11th? I will be meeting with Crawdad Sat. at my house, he wants to use some bear grease on his new mocs. We'll be talking about when and where at that time and I'll keep you and Vern posted. I think we will shoot for noon or early afternoon at the latest so we have time to make it up the trail and set camp. And I too hope it don't rain. Been that route at a snow shoe. Wasn't any fun with 2 ft. of snow and 50 degrees. Anyway I will keep you posted and if you can go in with us that would be great. Talk at you later, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Rocky Mountain College Date: 28 Jan 2000 01:38:07 -0700 the "recreation of the Rocky Mountain College" on this year? Your Most Obedient Servant... > Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders > http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill Hello Lee, yes Sir. This year in 2000 should we recieve the proper amounts of snow we will hold a quiet camp from February 19-22 in Honor of Jim Bridger and the large number of Mountain Men gathered here from the months of October to February 1836-1837 as described by Osborn Russell in his book Journal of a Mountain Man. Russell also talks about calling this camp the Rocky Mountain College in the same book. This year is primarly a planning camp. We are wondering what to do about the lack of snow. Ron Tewalt from Sidney, Montana showed up and began to take off clothes. Said it was warm over here. A webpage is under reconstruction regarding this event and our Clark Bottom Rendez-vous in honor of the members of Captain Clark party who also camped here in July of 1806. We are really puzzled about the snow or lack of it. 2 open winters in a row is hard to take. The lack of snow is not good when it comes to reenacting a winter camp. Winter gear looks out of place without snow. I will send you the new URL shortly. If anyone is interested about this year contact me off line or call 406 633 2497. Crazy Weather! My best Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man headgear Date: 28 Jan 2000 02:21:59 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF6936.74978220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Kurtz depicts fur hats with a short bill. Badgerhole ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF6936.74978220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think Kurtz depicts fur hats with a = short=20 bill.
Badgerhole
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF6936.74978220-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: tongue in cheek Date: 28 Jan 2000 07:34:31 EST How many people does it take to change a light bulb in cyberspace?... 1 to successfully change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed. 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers. 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb. 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list, saying that, "We are all using light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list." 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brands of light bulb work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list, which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to collate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say that this is just what this list was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for a new list alt.lite.bulb. 38 votes proclaiming the advantages in using vintage light bulbs. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 28 Jan 2000 06:25:56 -0800 On Thu, 27 January 2000, "Ratcliff" wrote: > We got a dose of sleet and freezing rain south of Ft Worth....would trade for snow anyday. > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lanney, Being raised with the Amish - they had an old saying that I'm sure Dennis M. will agree with, being in that country. "On thee first snow that one may track a duck in, write down thee date. This number will be the number of snow's that one will see tracks for thee winter". In other words the number of snows that puts down at least 1" or better would be counted; funny thing is we have tried this counting method for many years and come within a snow one way or the other from the written date of the first snow for that season. I can't remember if you count the first snow or not !! Like the Amish would say in asking and answering in the same sentence. "Pretty good, say not". Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Ailments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matthew Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: More Snow! :-) (off topic) Date: 28 Jan 2000 09:53:12 -0600 Hi again, We didn't get as much snow the first day as inticipated. Only about 9"-11". It's still snowing though. I'll tell you one thing, Chance Tiffie is right when he said that a snow like this comes around only about once every ten years. The last snow like this I remember was in 1988 when I was 5. 13" in one day. I came from outside where my dad, sister, and I were pushing my dad's Dodge Dakota(ironic name for a truck that gets caught in the snow) up our driveway (which is about 100 ft. higher in elevation comparied to that of our house) while my mom was driving. People start down here start going all loopy and when they drive, are attracted to the ditches or other vehicles, like yesterday. My dad was driving the same Dakota when suddenly the person in the other lane swerved into my dad's lane a forced him to the ditch where he killed a group of mailboxes with one hit. No damage to the truck except for that annoying piece of plastic underneath the front bumper was knocked loose. I don't understand why they manke anything on vehicles plastice anywhow. Someone came along and whinched my dad out. I do know how Lanny Ratcliff feels also. Every year we get about 2"-3" of sleet and freezing rain. It bends trees over, makes powerlines sang, and it make all the car body repair men very happy! I was also able to track a group of cyotes chasing a small deer. That reminds me. I was trying to pick out a Muntain Man name. I've narrowed it down to "Rook"(short for rookie and it is also a castle) or "Tatonka" (Native American for the largest and smartest bull buffalo of the herd). Tell me what y'all think. Matt Porter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first snow Date: 28 Jan 2000 10:59:02 -0500 Matt, I think your really confused about the snow! If memory is correct Ark. has had massive snow`s for years. Thats where Billy Boy Clinton is from. I`m still glad your excited and looking forward to another snow, "er snow job". (VVVBBBGGG) hehehe John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 12:06 PM > Hi all! > I'm just so excited, like a giddy school boy. We are having are first > snow down here in Arkansas. They say that we should get about a foot by > tomorrow. I just wanted to share my excitement with you all. > > Matt > Porter > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More Snow! :-) (off topic) Date: 28 Jan 2000 09:21:11 -0800 Matthew Porter wrote: > > Hi again, > I do know how Lanny Ratcliff feels also. Every year we get about 2"-3" > of sleet and freezing rain. It bends trees over, makes powerlines sang, and > it make all the car body repair men very happy! Matthew, I don't envy you'all your showy winter weather about now. Here in Eastern WA. we rarely have such a snow but years ago when I was a kid I remember we had some ice storms like you mention. The climate has changed enough since that such storms seem to be a thing of the past for a while anyway. > I was also able to track a group of cyotes chasing a small deer. That > reminds me. I was trying to pick out a Muntain Man name. I've narrowed it > down to "Rook"(short for rookie and it is also a castle) or "Tatonka" > (Native American for the largest and smartest bull buffalo of the herd). > Tell me what y'all think. Did you get any coyotes? BTW, one normally does not pick a "mountain name" for ones self, but rather it is bestowed one by ones fellows. It usually is picked for some particular trait or event/happenstance that the owner suffered under. Just be yourself and someone will hang a name on you eventually. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More Snow! :-) Date: 28 Jan 2000 14:19:46 EST Hello there by the fire' Capt'n Lahti is right about the names, as soon as you screw up royally, a name will be bestowed upon you to remind you always of the occasion! The best names are given, not chosen fro one's self. With all the talk about snow, What are your methods of keeping fire over 10 feet of snow? Paul Kane tells about their party cutting down 6 logs of green timber 18 to 20 feet long, and laid down close together to form a platform. " The fire is then kindled on it, and pine branches spread on each side, on which the party, wrapped in their blankets, lie down with their feet towards the fire. The parallel logs rarely burn through in one night, but the dropping coal and heat form a deep chasm immediately under the fire, into which the logs are prevented from falling by their length." Of course, we can "t just go cutting down green trees these days. Dave Tippets showed me a good way for a small camp. He cut two limbs from a tree and laid them parallel on the snow, then used the lid of a camp kettle, laid upside down on these limbs, to build a tiny fire, just big enough to cook a one man meal on. Crazy dug down 6 feet once, {and only once} to make a large pit with snow benches around it but that's only practical for a long camp. Then one could put a canvas over it for a shelter, too. He says that's way too much work for a short term camp. Its very easy to break a sweat doing that sort of thing, too, which is a big mistake and much regretted come nightfall. We've also just built a fire on the snow, and as it melts down, just built a fire in another spot. Anyone else have a favorite way? Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Nevins" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camping item of interest Date: 28 Jan 2000 16:06:16 PST John, I got one about six months ago and it works just fine. Tim Nevins >From: "John McKee" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: "AMM COMMON LIST" >Subject: MtMan-List: Camping item of interest >Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:37:56 -0600 > >Hello the camp. Saw reference to Crazy Crow on the list and, by >coincidence, got their flyer in this afternoon. I don't know the quality >but they have listed a "iron skillet w/ folding handle. 9" diameter x 1" >deep, with a 5 1/4 inch long handle. The web site is www.crazycrow.com and >the item # is 5587-002-009. Quite a handy item to have. Long John ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Goex. Date: 28 Jan 2000 19:25:34 -0500 Goex has had another explosion ("accident"). Details are hard to get at this point. They are out of production at this point and it could be MUCH more serious than that. Fred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: MtMan-List: Jags and ramrod tips Date: 28 Jan 2000 20:17:49 -0600 Does anybody know when the brass tips, and threaded jags first showed up? I'd like to have period correct (1810-1830 for me) fiddly bitz, but I'm curious as to when this type of jag showed up. What were the correct types of jags, ball pullers, etc would have been available in the early days of the fur trade? Todd Oh, we're finally getting some snow in Missouri. A whopping 1/2 inch. Woowee. Better get the dog sled out. My first rendezvous is in 2 weeks in Northern Iowa, I'm hoping there is some snow, and that it's not just bitter cold. I'm looking forward to this. This will be my pilgrim trip and I am counting the days til I head out!!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gloves-Mittens Date: 28 Jan 2000 23:06:54 -0500 (EST) "Clad in skins and furs, an Oroqen hunter, member of a once nomadic people [Indigenous] on the Chinese side of the Black Dragon River [the border between Manchuria and Siberian Russia], braves minus 30.F to track moose and deer." 10"x12.5" photograph by REZA shows him trotting on a white horse thru about 6-8 inch snow pack. He's wearing gloves with split flap mittens over them. Mittens are attached to his coat by some sort of mid- forearm band. Appears to be wearing mocassins? (only right foot shows in photo). Gloves, mittens, and footwear all appear to be the same material and color - sorta hard to tell with the lighting. [Feb.2000 National Geographic, p.5-6.] from Michigan ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More Snow Date: 28 Jan 2000 20:08:20 PST Just returned from my day in the snow. For those of you that responded off-line wanting to get thier names in early for my gear; I'm sorry to dissapoint you!! As for the day trek, I learned a few things. The temp was never over 25 degrees, and the snow was somewhere around 6-8 inches. I wore two linen shirts, an osnanburg shirt, mid-thigh leather coat, and a linen scarf on the upper torso. I wore fustian knee breeches and new pair of brain-tan leggings on the lower half. One pair of sideseam mocs covered my feet, and thats all they did. I was plenty warm, with no complaints. I had my first experience with brain-tan, and will shortly be changing my coat to brain-tan as well. It absorbed less water than my partners commercial tanned pantaloons. Great job Jean Heinbuck!!!! I WAS very excited with my ability to build a fire in the snow, especially with wood covered with a half inch of ice, until I got home and saw Jill's question concerning building fire on 10 feet of snow. Sure let the air outta my baloon!! As far as game, squirrels were scarce, but passed up several good shots at whitetail deer. Ended up eating jerky and keepsake biscuits for lunch with one cup of coffee. It took three very large handfuls of snow to produce one small cup of coffee. Sure don't compare with mountain doins, but a good time none the less. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Ailments de Pays! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More Snow Date: 28 Jan 2000 21:09:10 -0800 (PST) On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Chance Tiffie wrote: > Sure don't compare with mountain doins, but a good time none the less. Cliff... Sounds like a good day... and it's not the mountains that make the doins... it's the doins that make it. lemme know when you invent moccs that keep the wet out Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Passing of a friend, list member, etc. Date: 29 Jan 2000 07:15:04 EST Hist_list members, It is a sad day to have to report that a friend to many on this list and members in Colorado has went to the other side. Lee "Turtle" Boyer, formally of Loveland CO, now living in Siglerville PA= has been taken from us as of Friday 01/28/2000. He will be missed by all that= has had the pleasure of his company, in person, by mail or on this list, alwa= ys good for a fun time. He was in a snowmobile accident and passed away at the scene, his sons ha= d to bring him out as medical personell where unable to reach them at the location. God Bless you Turtle, say "Hi" to Charley Hanson and damn you, save me a = spot at that campfire in the sky. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Passing of a friend, list member, etc. Date: 29 Jan 2000 07:52:56 -0500 Hell, this news is not what I wanted to wake up to today. I sorta figger that My runnin' Partner "Duff" met him at the gates and took him to that valley of beaver that he's been trappin' for a couple of years. Anything I can do on this end, I will.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Passing of a friend, list member, etc.] Date: 29 Jan 2000 10:58:46 EST deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) wrote: Hell, this news is not what I wanted to wake up to today. I sorta figger that My runnin' Partner "Duff" met him at the gates and to= ok him to that valley of beaver that he's been trappin' for a couple of year= s. Anything I can do on this end, I will.. D ____________________ Isn't that the truth Dennis, I got called at work Friday afternoon, that = the boys where in route with their Dad, that's all I was told. Went to the hospital to wait, but he was already on his way to a better place. They where running some back trails on the trap line, when the steering b= roke and sent Turtle down a steep bank into a tree head first, it was over at = that point. Brother, think what went through the sons minds and having to brin= g him out, may we never experience such a moment. I called Buck last night, so I guess he's getting ready to head this way = this morning, Turtle was his Uncle. That's a hard pill to take being that clos= e - more like brothers. I'll let you know what's happening later. Thanks Dennis for being a good friend to our friend. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Passing of a friend, list member, etc.] Date: 29 Jan 2000 12:58:06 -0800 On Sat, 29 January 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) wrote: > > Hell, this news is not what I wanted to wake up to today. > I sorta figger that My runnin' Partner "Duff" met him at the gates and took him to that valley of beaver that he's been trappin' for a couple of years. > > Anything I can do on this end, I will.. > D > ____________________ > > Isn't that the truth Dennis, I got called at work Friday afternoon, that the > boys where in route with their Dad....... > > I'll let you know what's happening later. Thanks Dennis for being a good friend to our friend. > > Concho. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Boys, Just got into Harrisburg PA, will pass your words on to the family, thanks. Still have an hour and a half drive from here when Concho shows, aren't laptops great. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More Snow! :-) Date: 27 Jan 2000 22:04:01 -0800 > Crazy dug down 6 feet once, {and only once} to make a large pit with > snow benches around it but that's only practical for a long camp. Then one > could put a canvas over it for a shelter, too. He says that's way too much > work for a short term camp. Its very easy to break a sweat doing that sort > of thing, too, which is a big mistake and much regretted come nightfall. > We've also just built a fire on the snow, and as it melts down, just built a > fire in another spot. I have been told by those who have some experience in snow country that packing down the snow with snow shoes and breaking it up once it is solid enough to remove in solid pieces is much easier and less time consuming than digging. The compacted pieces of snow can also be used to build a wind break. An alternative to letting the fire melt into the snow would be to cut several branches as thick as possible and make a raft several branches thick to build the fire on. I suppose new branches can be added under the raft as the fire burns through the top layers, or maybe use long branches that can be pushed together under the fire as it burns through. I don't live in an area that gets much snow, so I don't know how well these things will work. Just a coupla thoughts. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Passing of a Friend Date: 29 Jan 2000 20:31:27 -0800 (PST) Was Lee the same "turtle" that used to stop at bridger on his way to nationals? My condolences to all his family and friends. After seeing his words on the site many times, his humor will be missed by all. If he was the brother who used to stop here, I will miss his visits, and I know he has gone to a better trapping ground. Dog, Gabe's Hole Brigade __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FSLark@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: first rendevous Date: 30 Jan 2000 08:02:12 EST I have been receiving the list for almost a year. I had never been to a rendevous until I made a day visit to Alafia here in Florida last weekend. Over the preceeding months I had read extensively about mountain men and long hunters. I began to look at the longhunter persona as what I wanted. I chose that for no other reason than I live in the east so I should portray an easterner. I have an acquaintence who protrays a Seminole Indian in local reenactments. He helped me get started with some good ideas on what to buy first (my costume). At Alafia I purchased myself a shirt, jacket, and hat. Pants I will attempt to make out of buckskins I bought at another event. I lack moccasins as well, but I plan to make them too. I wore my partial outfit around at a smaller rendevous here in Florida (Ft. Dade) and noticed that when I talked to seasoned people, they were nothing but helpful. I also noticed that "flatlanders" kept asking me questions about the event that I had no way of answering. I still have a long way to go, I have no long rifle, camp gear, or other accouterments I don't know if my wife quite understands ... Frank ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Passing of a friend, list member, etc.] Date: 30 Jan 2000 10:37:57 -0500 buck wish the family our best and stress if there is anything we can do let us know---again sorry for the big loss-- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http:\\angelfire.com\fl2\mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first rendevous Date: 30 Jan 2000 13:47:56 EST Frank: If you ask a scientist about combustion he will give you all the details. If you ask someone how to light a fire, they will probably hand you a match. But Frank, as you obviously know, there is a smell in the smoke, that most folks, no matter how deeply they inhale, can't distinguish. To me, it's a smell of the past, of people in my own family and otherwise in our nation's history, that I would like to gather around, in the dim light of the fire - shutting out the rest of the world -- to share with, learn. Sharing yarns, and wisdoms, and outright lies that give a body merriment. Maybe someday I'll run into you Frank, and we'll sit around that fire with other friends, and I'll tell you how I showed up at the Wind River 1838 reenactment in Wyoming and now, looking back, made more embarrassing historically Inaccurate, foolish mistakes than I desire to share (again) on this list. But I made friends, Frank. I made friends that I don't have to see every year. I made friends that I pull around every fire I build, most are in spirit because most often I build my fires alone. And do you know what? The best part? In this day and age of the Internet I found some magic again that my life had been sorely lacking. You see it's not about your long rifle or your moccasins at all. Clothes don't make the man, regardless of the time. Honor makes the man and that's what you'll find in the histories we read and the new friends you will make, on this list, and at the fire. Best wishes to you, Frank. See you in the silver smoke. Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first rendevous Date: 30 Jan 2000 14:43:58 -0500 VERY well put, Laura. It's a commradire (sp) that most folks will never know. (And thats a shame...) Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Crooked Hand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: first rendevous Date: 30 Jan 2000 22:32:01 -0500 VERY well put, Laura. It's a commradire (sp) that most folks will never know. (And thats a shame...) Ad Miller ********** True Ad... If I did not go to Rendezvous, I would still be wonderingwhat kind of mate you were..a nd that lovely wife of yours.. would only be somebody I was still waiting to meet.. you are all such fine folks.. and I betcha that everybody who shared your fire knows that what I say is true. FOlks who don;t go to rendezvous are just plain missing out on the most excellent activity they can put in ther callendars... fires to share, food to enjoy, songs, jokes, stories, fresh air and COMRADESHIP/////// not to be replaced by anything else. Your camp, fire and friendship willnot soon be forgotten! Crooked Hand ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Lee "Turtle" Boyer Date: 30 Jan 2000 22:25:22 -0500 (EST) Buck, Please convey my deepest sympathies to your aunt and her sons at this terrible tragedy of losing a husband, a father, and a friend to many. May the God of all comfort and strength help the tearful widow and her brave sons thru this most difficult and painful time. from Michigan ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Snow (3-4 feet) Date: 30 Jan 2000 23:01:24 -0500 (EST) Two brothers in my church (and 2 other brothers who had to come back Friday) just returned late Saturday afternoon from a weeklong primitive snowmobile camp 80 miles north of Sault Ste.Marie, Michigan - Ontario. No telephone lines nor modern buildings and only road was a gravel "highway". Reported 3-4 feet of snow on the ground (considered real light at this time for an average winter there). Saw lots of trapper's cabins or shacks and a few wolves - no moose, bear, etc. Sounds like a great place for a winter rondy. Lanney may want to trade for a foot of this stuff. from Michigan ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrick Goltl" Subject: MtMan-List: rifles Date: 31 Jan 2000 07:40:48 PST does anyone have any info on Deer Creek rifles? junk? accurate or pathetic reproduction? i know absolutely nothing about them, so any information is appreciated. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles Date: 29 Jan 2000 18:47:29 -0800 > does anyone have any info on Deer Creek rifles? junk? accurate or pathetic > reproduction? > > i know absolutely nothing about them, so any information is appreciated. There was a thread on Deer Creek rifles on the Traditional Muzzleloading Message Hide about a month ago; http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb106703&TL= I don't think there were many good things said about them. someone there can fill you in. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles Date: 31 Jan 2000 19:31:54 -0500 Patrick Goltl wrote: > > does anyone have any info on Deer Creek rifles? junk? accurate or pathetic > reproduction? > > i know absolutely nothing about them, so any information is appreciated. In the past, their work was VERY good! I haven't seen anything from them in a couple of years, so I don't know how good the workmanship is now. Fred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Crooked Hand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles Date: 31 Jan 2000 21:14:56 -0500 Fred... I bought two of their rifles in the last 2 years.. they were so nice and so accurate out of the box that when I showed them to friends.. I had to order more! nice stuff.. and if you have any problems, they actually talk to you on the phone.. and are NICE about it! Crooked Hand/Wethlee-Enke` http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 7:31 PM > Patrick Goltl wrote: > > > > does anyone have any info on Deer Creek rifles? junk? accurate or pathetic > > reproduction? > > > > i know absolutely nothing about them, so any information is appreciated. > > In the past, their work was VERY good! I haven't seen anything from them > in a couple of years, so I don't know how good the workmanship is now. > > Fred > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waterproof Porous Cloth Date: 31 Jan 2000 20:26:13 -0600 Waterproof Porous Cloth I have many recipes I won't publish. The ingredients are too difficult to come by or too dangerous to be mentioning on a general interest list. Modern alternatives to the old materials don't work the same way so the results are quite different than they originally were. In most cases the results with modern materials are less satisfactory than those done wholly the traditional way. I have finally encountered an old recipe, which should work for waterproofing cloth without the need to use litharge and other forms of lead. I am providing an edited version of the original for clarity and brevity. The process works for both canvas and wool. It is claimed to be impervious to water yet allows the passage of air. Make 2 quarts weak glue. (Hot hide glue thin as water.) Add 1 ounce alum Add 2 ounces lye soap (makes for softer cloth) Apply (brush) hot to both sides of stretched cloth with the nap. Or run small pieces of cloth through the solution made by the tubful and wring dry with rollers. First air-dry the treated cloth; then dry in a room at low heat allow the cloth to remain for a few days, be certain to expel all the moisture completely. Sun drying can speed the process. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 31 Jan 2000 20:16:33 -0700 Hello All, A good friend of mine who has too much spare time on his hands, is thinking of making some replica "I.Wilson" knives. (Of course I know it's really "J. Wilson", spare me) Before he starts he wants to know if there is any interest out there in obtaing one. Here are the details: he'll use 8" Russell butcher blades, taper the handle section so it appears hand forged, put on hickory handles with six pins and shaped as per originals, and lastly he's looked into having a stamp made with the orginal "I. Wilson" marking and correct cartouches. He figures the finished product with shipping should be $35.00 each. Before he has a $250.00 stamp made, he asked me to query you good folks to see if there's any interest. Of course we're not talking any attempt at forgery, just a correct looking replica. let me know if you're interested.... "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party Pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: What's in a Name? Date: 31 Jan 2000 09:09:20 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0144_01BF6BCA.DB8426A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matt asked:=20 I was trying to pick out a Muntain Man name. I've narrowed it down to = "Rook"(short for rookie and it is also a castle) or "Tatonka" (Native = American for the largest and smartest bull buffalo of the herd). Tell me = what y'all think. The Capt. and Jill explained the naming quite well but I thought that = perhaps I could do it more humorously. In a local group here there is a = feller known "whar ere Mountain Men shall meet" as No Grimace. Which as = you may guess came from forgetting a rather popular beverage when it was = assigned to his care. You can likely guess what Dry Dog forgot. Another = man received his name from singing at the wrong time, since you have = probably heard that "It aint over tell the Fat Duck sings!"=20 There is even Cherry who never seemed to do anything wrong to get a = naming. That was not for me. I quickly earned the title of Small Balls. = Now that it is a long story (not to be told at this fire) but trust that = I earned it and wear it proudly.=20 I realize that some here are grieving the loss of a close friend and = hope that my humor is not poorly timed. I spoke at my seventeen year old = nephews funeral last summer and I know that humor can be perfectly = acceptable way to grieve. He was Char rokee. A mispronunciation of the = name of a rifle he had been given for Christmas. My condolences to the = friends of Lee "Turtle" Boyer.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0144_01BF6BCA.DB8426A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Matt asked:

 I was trying to pick out a Muntain = Man name.=20 I've narrowed it down to "Rook"(short for rookie and it is also a = castle) or=20 "Tatonka" (Native American for the largest and smartest bull buffalo of = the=20 herd). Tell me what y'all think.

The Capt. and Jill explained the naming = quite well=20 but I thought that perhaps I could do it more humorously. In a local = group here=20 there is a feller known "whar ere Mountain Men shall meet" as No = Grimace. Which=20 as you may guess came from forgetting a rather popular beverage when it = was=20 assigned to his care. You can likely guess what Dry Dog forgot. Another = man=20 received his name from singing at the wrong time, since you have = probably heard=20 that "It aint over tell the Fat Duck sings!"=20

There is even Cherry who never seemed to do anything wrong to get a = naming.=20 That was not for me. I quickly earned the title of Small Balls. Now that = it is a=20 long story (not to be told at this fire) but trust that I earned it and = wear it=20 proudly.

I realize that some here are grieving the loss of a close friend and = hope=20 that my humor is not poorly timed. I spoke at my seventeen year old = nephews=20 funeral last summer and I know that humor can be perfectly acceptable = way to=20 grieve. He was Char rokee. A mispronunciation of the name of a rifle he = had been=20 given for Christmas. My condolences to the friends of Lee "Turtle"=20 Boyer.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0144_01BF6BCA.DB8426A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's in a Name? Date: 31 Jan 2000 21:12:53 -0700 I think you don't go looking for a name, you let one come to you. You asked.... Todd Glover ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 31 Jan 2000 20:43:42 -0800 Todd, I'd proly be game for a couple at that price....Keep us posted? hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 31 Jan 2000 23:00:06 -0600 Todd Good knife makers are hard to find these days.....count me in for one of = the knives for $35. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:16 PM > Hello All, >=20 > A good friend of mine who has too much spare time on his hands, is > thinking of making some replica "I.Wilson" knives. (Of course I know = it's > really "J. Wilson", spare me) >=20 > Before he starts he wants to know if there is any interest out there = in > obtaing one. > Here are the details: he'll use 8" Russell butcher blades, taper the > handle section so it appears hand forged, put on hickory handles with = six > pins and shaped as per originals, and lastly he's looked into having a > stamp made with the orginal "I. Wilson" marking and correct = cartouches. > He figures the finished product with shipping should be $35.00 each. >=20 > Before he has a $250.00 stamp made, he asked me to query you good = folks=20 > to see if there's any interest. >=20 > Of course we're not talking any attempt at forgery, just a correct > looking replica. >=20 > let me know if you're interested.... >=20 >=20 > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > Poison River Party Pilgrim >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 31 Jan 2000 21:04:23 -0800 Teton, I'd be interested in a couple at that price and I suspect a couple of guys up here in my party would too. Like was said, keep me posted. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Corey Tretteen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 31 Jan 2000 22:26:46 -0800 I would be interested in at least one of them knives, maybe 2. =20 Corey ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html