From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: television documentary Date: 01 Sep 2000 07:37:24 -0500 bicycles in the Army? What does that have to do with the subject of this list? Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fw: Somethin' to think about......OFF TOPIC Date: 01 Sep 2000 08:37:31 -0700 (PDT) >Just take a couple of minutes to read > this......... > > > >WHERE WE'RE HEADED By Robert A. Waters > > > > > > > > > > > >You're sound asleep when you hear a thump > outside your bedroom door. > > > > > > > >Half-awake, and nearly paralyzed with fear, you > hear muffled whispers. > > > >At least two people have broken into your house > and are moving your > way. > > > > > > > >With your heart pumping, you reach down beside > your bed and pick up > your > > > >shotgun. You rack a shell into the chamber, > then inch toward the door > > and > > > >open it. > > > > > > > >In the darkness, you make out two shadows. One > holds a weapon--it > looks > > > >like a crowbar. > > > > > > > >When the intruder brandishes it as if to > strike, you raise the shotgun > > and > > > >fire. The blast knocks both thugs to the > floor. One writhes and > > screams > > > >while the second man crawls to the front door > and lurches outside. > > > > > > > >As you pick up the telephone to call police, > you know you're in > trouble. > > > >In your country, most guns were outlawed years > before, and the few that > > are > > > >privately owned are so stringently regulated as > to make them useless. > > > >Yours was never registered. > > > > > > > >Police arrive and inform you that the second > burglar has died. They > > arrest > > > >you for First Degree Murder and Illegal > Possession of a Firearm. > > > > > > > >When you talk to your attorney, he tells you > not to worry: authorities > > will > > > >probably plea the case down to manslaughter. > "What kind of sentence > > will I > > > >get?" you ask. "Only ten-to-twelve years," he > replies, as if that's > > > >nothing. "Behave yourself, and you'll be out > in seven." > > > > > > > >The next day, the shooting is the lead story in > the local newspaper. > > > >Somehow, you're portrayed as an eccentric > vigilante while the two men > > you > > > >shot are represented as choir boys. Their > friends and relatives can't > > find > > > >an unkind word to say about them. Buried deep > down in the article, > > > >authorities acknowledge that both "victims" > have been arrested numerous > > > >times. But the next day's headline says it > all: "Lovable Rogue Son > > Didn't > > > >Deserve to Die." The thieves have been > transformed from career > criminals > > > >into Robin Hood-type pranksters. > > > > > > > >As the days wear on, the story takes wings. > The national media picks > it > > > >up, then the international media. > > > > > > > >The surviving burglar has become a folk hero. > Your attorney says the > > thief > > > >is preparing to sue you, and he'll probably > win. > > > > > > > >The media publishes reports that your home has > been burglarized several > > > >times in the past and that you've been critical > of local police for > > their > > > >lack of effort in apprehending the suspects. > After the last break-in, > > you > > > >told your neighbor that you would be prepared > next time. > > > >The District Attorney uses this to allege that > you were lying in wait > > for > > > >the burglars. > > > > > > > >A few months later, you go to trial. The > charges haven't been reduced, > > as > > > >your lawyer had so confidently predicted. When > you take the stand, > your > > > >anger at the injustice of it all works against > you. Prosecutors paint > a > > > >picture of you as a mean, vengeful man. > > > > > > > >It doesn't take long for the jury to convict > you of all charges. > > > > > > > >The judge sentences you to life in prison. > > > > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This > > > >case really happened. > > > > > > > >On August 22, 1999, Tony Martin of Emneth, > Norfolk, England, killed one > > > >burglar and wounded a second. In April, 2000, > he was convicted and is > > now > > > >serving a life term. > > > > > > > >How did it become a crime to defend one's own > life in the once-great > > > >British Empire? > > > > > > > >It started with the Pistols Act of 1903. This > seemingly reasonable law > > > >forbade selling pistols to minors or felons and > established that > handgun > > > >sales were to be made only to those who had a > license. The Firearms > Act > > of > > > >1920 expanded licensing to include not only > handguns but all firearms > > > >except shotguns. Later laws passed in 1953 and > 1967 outlawed the > > carrying > > > >of any weapon by private citizens and mandated > the registration of all > > > >shotguns. > > > > > > > >Momentum for total handgun confiscation began > in earnest after the > > > >Hungerford mass shooting in 1987. Michael > Ryan, a mentally disturbed > > man > > > >with a Kalashnikov rifle, walked down the > streets shooting everyone he > > saw. > > > > When the smoke cleared, 17 people were dead. > > > > > > > >The British public, already de-sensitized by > eighty years of "gun > > control", > > > >demanded even tougher restrictions. (The > seizure of all privately > owned > > > >handguns was the objective even though Ryan > used a rifle.) > > > > > > > >Nine years later, at Dunblane, Scotland, Thomas > Hamilton used a > > > >semi-automatic weapon to murder 16 children and > a teacher at a public > > > >school. > > > > > > > >For many years, the media had portrayed all gun > owners as mentally > > > >unstable, or worse, criminals. Now the press > had a real kook with > which > > to > > > >beat up law-abiding gun owners. Day after day, > week after week, the > > media > > > >gave up all pretense of objectivity and > demanded a total ban on all > > > >handguns. The Dunblane Inquiry, a few months > later, sealed the fate of > > the > > > >few sidearms still owned by private citizens. > > > > > > > >During the years in which the British > government incrementally took > away > > > >most gun rights, the notion that a citizen had > the right to armed > > > >self-defense came to be seen as vigilantism. > Authorities refused to > > grant > > > >gun licenses to people who were threatened, > claiming that self-defense > > was > > > >no longer considered a reason to own a gun. > Citizens who shot burglars > > or > > > >robbers or rapists were charged while the real > criminals were released. > > > >Indeed, after the Martin shooting, a police > spokesman was quoted as > > saying, > > > >"We cannot have people take the law into their > own hands." > > > > > > > >All of Martin's neighbors had been robbed > numerous times, and several > > > >elderly people were severely injured in > beatings by young thugs who had > > no > > > >fear of the consequences. Martin himself, a > collector of antiques, had > > > >seen most of his collection trashed or stolen > by burglars. > > > > > > > >When the Dunblane Inquiry ended, citizens who > owned handguns were given > > > >three months to turn them over to local > authorities. Being good > British > > > >subjects, most people obeyed the law. The few > who didn't were visited > > by > > > >police and threatened with ten-year prison > sentences if they didn't > > comply. > > > > > > > >Police later bragged that they'd taken nearly > 200,000 handguns from > > private > > > >citizens. > > > > > > > >How did the authorities know who had handguns? > > > > > > > >The guns had been registered and licensed. > Kinda like cars. > > > > > > > >Sound familiar? > > > > > > > >WAKE UP AMERICA, THIS IS WHY OUR FOUNDING > FATHERS PUT THE SECOND > > AMENDMENT > > > >IN OUR CONSTITUTION. > > > > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" Subject: MtMan-List: Stuff For Sale Date: 01 Sep 2000 09:18:33 -0700 I have several item for sale, that if you would like information on please contact me off list. 1. One Pair Drop Front Pants, Size W-38, Inseam 34, White in Color with Two Hidden Pockets. 2 Two Cotton Long Sleeved Shirts suitable for Rendezvous, Friendship, etc. or? Both Size 46 One is Blue & One Red 3. Throwing Knife & Hawk made by Beaver Bills Forge Works-Ohio. Both Weight Approx. 14-1/2 ounces, and comply with Weight, Size, Size of Blade Proportion for NMLRA Competition (NMLRA Competition Legal). 4. 50 Extra 3/4=94 English Gun Flints ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Date: 02 Sep 2000 03:28:28 GMT Mike, Just checked out your list on the AMM web sight...impressive! Was wondering if you could give me the context for the name Jack Hays and Col. John C Hays? John Coffee Hays was THE Texas Ranger during the Republic period and I'm assuming the Col. John C Hays on your list is the same person(John Coffee Hays also went by Jack Hays or Cpt. Jack). I was not aware of any connection with the furtrade..I knew he settled Oakland California after the Mexican War as well as scouted for a road from San Antonio to El Paso but what was the furtrade connection? Any information regarding this would be GREATLY appreciated as I don't have an available copy of either sources you used for the reference on this. Thanks for going thruogh all the trouble to present this list to us and thank you Mr. Rudy for posting it! Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Fire! Date: 02 Sep 2000 10:30:27 -0700 Friends, My brother in law in Boise sent me a report of how the recent fires near Yellowpine, ID. up the Middle Fork of the Salmon R. went for some rangers, outfitters and property owners. I have had it put on a friends web page so you may share it too. It is a well written narrative and I think you will find it very interesting. Thanks for your time. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/fires.htm The rains can come none too soon. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Western Fires Date: 02 Sep 2000 13:30:12 -0500 Capt. L I read the accounts of the fire last night on Ad's web site. Sounds like these folks have had a real hard time. Thank God No human life was lost in this case. The loss of woods, wild creatures, and perhaps some livestock is enough. Hopefully enough rain will come to stop the fires, and soon. YMOS, Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western Fires Date: 02 Sep 2000 12:22:24 -0700 Harddog, It's raining now here in Kennewick. I hope it is enough else where. We normally don't get more than about 8-9 inches a year and it hasn't rained here all summer. The guys back east have had their problems with too much. Maybe it is our turn now. Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 11:30 AM > Capt. L > > I read the accounts of the fire last night on Ad's web site. Sounds like > these folks have had a real hard time. Thank God No human life was lost in > this case. The loss of woods, wild creatures, and perhaps some livestock is > enough. > > Hopefully enough rain will come to stop the fires, and soon. > > YMOS, > Harddog > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Date: 02 Sep 2000 16:38:54 -0600 Scott, Yes, it sounds like this is the person you were looking for. Col. John C. "Jack" Hays was a guide for the October and November 1849 trip on the trail from New Mexico to Arizona. He mentioned in Leroy Hafen's book under the chapter "David Jackson", as being the guide and part of the "Fremont Association party along with Robert Eccleston". In the other book I list, "Wild Life in the Far West", a couple pages talk about him being a texas ranger (under the name of Jack Hays) and his 600 hundred men. The incident which Hobbs writes about is a triall and hanging when a ranger is confronted by a drunk mexican who says he will kill a texan before they leave and draws a knife. The ranger (unnamed) pulls a gun and shoots him. Col. Twiggs, who was at Vera Cruz, ordered a gallows erected and planned to have the man hanged. Well, as the hanging was to be done, the regiment rode up demanded the man's freedom (which came off without much more discussion) and he hopped on a horse and rode away with them. Twiggs, stays out of sight and evently leaves the city to excape harm in a boat. Hobbs dates the action about 1847, so both dates are alittle past what most consider the fur trade. But, I tend to extend the fur trade to include some years when the fur traders, trappers and adventurers were still alive and active in the west. Hope this is a help to you, if you would like the full account of the Hobbs story and the line drawing which goes along with it, let me know. The "Trapper of the Far West" is still in print and can be found fairly easily. But it does only contain a paragraph about who you are interested in- maybe a library close would have it. Or better yet, a friend. mike. scott mcmahon wrote: > Mike, > Just checked out your list on the AMM web sight...impressive! Was wondering > if you could give me the context for the name Jack Hays and Col. John C > Hays? John Coffee Hays was THE Texas Ranger during the Republic period and > I'm assuming the Col. John C Hays on your list is the same person(John > Coffee Hays also went by Jack Hays or Cpt. Jack). I was not aware of any > connection with the furtrade..I knew he settled Oakland California after the > Mexican War as well as scouted for a road from San Antonio to El Paso but > what was the furtrade connection? Any information regarding this would be > GREATLY appreciated as I don't have an available copy of either sources you > used for the reference on this. Thanks for going thruogh all the trouble to > present this list to us and thank you Mr. Rudy for posting it! > Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Congrats Buck Date: 02 Sep 2000 17:30:57 -0700 On Thu, 31 August 2000, Jon Marinetti wrote: > On your new job and also that you'll be researching along with your > longtime buddy from the days of youth. good to hear you two are on the > same team. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jon, Buck is out of town this week with his work during the day, and checking on some items from a dig near Washington, MO during the evening hours. He will be visiting Crosby Brown, local historian and retired Historian for Missouri. Mr. Brown has been working our (the lists) time period for most of his life with different state and personal projects, has written many articles and documents on the fur trade along the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers. Think Buck will have an excellent information gathering experience with his old friend. Oh, an article that was written by Buck, "Success in the Fur Trade" has been selected by the Historical Society (museum newletter) and may end up being article of the year among these folks, pretty cool and he doesn't know about this as he's not on the internet to receive the word, while out of town. Thank you for the kind words, know he'll agree jon. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Date: 02 Sep 2000 19:09:48 -0700 > ------- Start of forwarded message ------- > > I have been working for last week on a Imax movie being made for National > Geographic. What a joke it would have been nice if someone would have read > the journals............. > We did manage to get them to let us build one Willow hut in the middle of all > the Teepees. Just the reverse of what it should have been.................... > With all the meat they had hanging around the camp it is going to be hard to > tell that > they were on hard times with little food in camp...................... > We did talk them in to build a long house to go with the teepees. So it may be > a little better but I dought it. From what I have seen I would give this movie > a big thumbs down. You would think National Geographic would do better. > See Ya On The Trail > Crazy Cyot ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Crazy, Several of us that canoe together had similar experiences with a National Geographic crew earlier this year at Bonnet's Mill, MO. We where to do some camp scenes in the evening, showing the preparing of food, as well as the forgaging of wild edibles. Buck having been in the period edibles food business, having written about the foraging of wild edible items, etc. and all of us having a little knowledge of what could be available in the area, we five thought we could give them what they where looking for. Wrong, they supplied what they thought we needed from the local grocery store, Tex Mex south western foods, Chinese herbs (in the bottles with labels removed) and several other items that would be completely wrong for the time frame - 1804-1805. We had a heck of a time getting them to let us use our own camp kitchen that is correct for the period and has seen more miles than the whole NG crew put together. This was the only positive note to the whole experience we encountered with "the folks in the know", the director was behond reasoning with on the edibles or the way they wanted the camp setup. If this would have been in 1804-1805, we may have been either killed or robbed within the first few hours of being there, out in the open, a fire as big as a Saturday night rendezvous one, and more camp followers hanging around than would have been at a major settlement. Crazy, sounds like we where working with the same National Geographic crew or their second cousins, they are as bad as Hollywood and changing their way of thinking is real questionable. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Date: 02 Sep 2000 23:00:47 -0400 I really respect you gents who try to make things as realistic as possible. I am one of those butt heads who, when watching the different shows on history pick apart what is wrong. Most people who watch really do not know what they are looking at. Keep up the good work. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 10:09 PM > > > ------- Start of forwarded message ------- > > > > I have been working for last week on a Imax movie being made for National > > Geographic. What a joke it would have been nice if someone would have read > > the journals............. > > > We did manage to get them to let us build one Willow hut in the middle of all > > the Teepees. Just the reverse of what it should have been.................... > > > With all the meat they had hanging around the camp it is going to be hard to > > tell that > > they were on hard times with little food in camp...................... > > > We did talk them in to build a long house to go with the teepees. So it may be > > a little better but I dought it. From what I have seen I would give this movie > > a big thumbs down. You would think National Geographic would do better. > > See Ya On The Trail > > Crazy Cyot > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Crazy, > > Several of us that canoe together had similar experiences with a National > Geographic crew earlier this year at Bonnet's Mill, MO. We where to do some camp > scenes in the evening, showing the preparing of food, as well as the forgaging > of wild edibles. Buck having been in the period edibles food business, having written > about the foraging of wild edible items, etc. and all of us having a little knowledge of > what could be available in the area, we five thought we could give them what they > where looking for. > > Wrong, they supplied what they thought we needed from the local grocery store, > Tex Mex south western foods, Chinese herbs (in the bottles with labels removed) > and several other items that would be completely wrong for the time frame - > 1804-1805. We had a heck of a time getting them to let us use our own camp > kitchen that is correct for the period and has seen more miles than the whole NG > crew put together. This was the only positive note to the whole experience we > encountered with "the folks in the know", the director was behond reasoning with > on the edibles or the way they wanted the camp setup. > > If this would have been in 1804-1805, we may have been either killed or robbed > within the first few hours of being there, out in the open, a fire as big as a Saturday > night rendezvous one, and more camp followers hanging around than would have > been at a major settlement. > > Crazy, sounds like we where working with the same National Geographic crew or > their second cousins, they are as bad as Hollywood and changing their way of > thinking is real questionable. > > > In the footsteps of others, > > D. L. "Concho" Smith > Historical Advisor for: > ______________________________________________ > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > before production". > ________________________________________HRD__ > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Date: 02 Sep 2000 22:24:48 -0600 If this would have been in 1804-1805, we may have been either killed or robbed within the first few hours of being there, out in the open, a fire as big as a Saturday night rendezvous one, and more camp followers hanging around than would have been at a major settlement. Crazy, sounds like we where working with the same National Geographic crew or their second cousins, they are as bad as Hollywood and changing their way of thinking is real questionable.In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Same question to you and Crazy, Concho. Who else would have done or could have made that camp but you 5 guys with enough realism to ground the film. In other words. Who else could have made up the 1804 - 1805 pcc [period correct camp] Walt out of his badgerhole ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Congrats Buck Date: 02 Sep 2000 22:37:56 -0600 Oh, an article that was written by Buck, "Success in the Fur Trade" has been selected by the Historical Society (museum newletter) and may end up being article of the year among these folks, pretty cool and he doesn't know about this as he's not on the internet to receive the word, while out of town. Hello Concho, Then Buck ought to know about Uncle Dick Wooten. He was one of that original Ashley bunch that came over here on the Yellowstone. He is said to have packed $7200 at the time of Pine Marten on a single pack horse. Making it safely out with the furs at the age of 19. A considerable feat. Must be up there pretty close with the peaks of "success in the Fur Trade" in Bucks book. I guess I can mention this with outfear of alerting Buck. Thanks for letting us know Concho. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Grease Date: 03 Sep 2000 00:45:47 EDT I am making my first pair of winter moccasins and have read a number of articles etc about the process. Think I've settled on center seam hair-on outer mocs and a second pair of center seam inner mocs. May try wool liners as well. My question regards "water-proofing" (really just slowing down the soaking process as much as possible. I have read several places about "greasing" the outer shoe with lard, oils, beeswax or some combination of the above. What has been your experience with these products? and please excuse the ignorance, but when I read "lard" or "grease" what am I really reading about? Is it rendered animal fat? or some other rendering? How do I make it? Any help on this subject would be greatly appreciated. YMOS Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Oil tan Date: 03 Sep 2000 00:48:30 EDT Another question I have for the list What is "oil-tanned" leather? Is it just vegetable (bark) tanned leather that has been oiled before the final drying? YMOS Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Date: 03 Sep 2000 10:27:09 -0700 Frank, Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he has damn near wore us out. I told him after this last outing and the way we where to do things according to the director, that I'll pass on the next one. Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved, not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather and end up not enjoying the reenactment. Concho. On Sat, 02 September 2000, "Frank V. Rago" wrote: > I really respect you gents who try to make things as realistic as possible. > I am one of those butt heads who, when watching the different shows on > history pick apart what is wrong. Most people who watch really do not know > what they are looking at. > > Keep up the good work. > In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Date: 03 Sep 2000 10:27:09 -0700 Frank, Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he has damn near wore us out. I told him after this last outing and the way we where to do things according to the director, that I'll pass on the next one. Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved, not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather and end up not enjoying the reenactment. Concho. On Sat, 02 September 2000, "Frank V. Rago" wrote: > I really respect you gents who try to make things as realistic as possible. > I am one of those butt heads who, when watching the different shows on > history pick apart what is wrong. Most people who watch really do not know > what they are looking at. > > Keep up the good work. > In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Date: 03 Sep 2000 19:25:29 -0600 Frank, Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he has damn near wore us out. I told him after this last outing and the way we where to do things according to the director, that I'll pass on the next one. Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved, not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather and end up not enjoying the reenactment. Concho. Hi Concho, This is what I am talking about. I have walked away from opportunity because they did not care if it was portrayed right. And most groups fail to act together when it comes to money on the spot. I think things are going to get better for old hands because of the up and coming L&C bicentennial. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 03 Sep 2000 08:21:01 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0157F.E55114E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed on my first AMM outing that several brothers used the same = basic leggings pattern (Roughly, 3/4 up the leg on the inside and = sloping up the outside with a built in strap to the belt). In contrast = there are the simple leggings used by the woods runners in the last = Museum of the Fur Trade Article ( Just above the knee and cut straight = accross) or in Bof Buckskinnings article on Southwest style (Just above = the knee, seam in front with pucker toe mocs). Are any of these styles better documented or what is the logic for = choosing one over the other? Humbly WY ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0157F.E55114E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I noticed on my first AMM outing that several brothers used the same = basic=20 leggings pattern (Roughly, 3/4 up the leg on the inside and sloping up = the=20 outside with a built in strap to the belt). In contrast there are the = simple=20 leggings used by the woods runners in the last Museum of the Fur Trade = Article (=20 Just above the knee and cut straight accross) or in Bof Buckskinnings = article on=20 Southwest style (Just above the knee, seam in front with pucker toe = mocs).

Are any of these styles better documented or what is the logic for = choosing=20 one over the other?

Humbly

WY

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0157F.E55114E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Date: 03 Sep 2000 08:21:08 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0157F.E92DD9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are three books that contain important pieces of Mr Miller's art.. The west of Alfred Jacob Miller- Which is mostly the Walter Collection = which are later works. There are a lot of good works in here. Alfred Jacob Miller, Artist of the Oregon Trail- Has some of his = original works done in the field as well as later works. Fun to see what = he decides to change. Accross the Wide Missouri- More of his field skretches. These books are all relatively expensive and difficult to purchase, but = I have found them in several smallish libraries.=20 I have pondered which would be more accurrate a field sketch or a later = work. If I were the artist my field sketch would lose details that I = would hope to remember later. They would be attempts to capture the = action. The kind of pants they were wearing etc would be irrelavant. On = the other hand, memory and artistic license may make my later works less = reliable. Alas, I wish that those who accuse Miller of "Artistic Licence" and = romanticism could give more specifics as to what that could mean.=20 Lastly, Laura Glise gave Mike an A+ which may be to high a grade since = he claimed the picture, Called "The Swing", represents the "only = "girlie" picture authenic to the fur trade." Miller and Kurtz were both = much more amorous than that. Although the swing is probably arguably the = best example, a friend's wife who looked at The west of Alfred Jacob = Miller accused me of "Indian Porn." Keep looking Mike more breast await = you. Humbly=20 WY . , ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0157F.E92DD9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There are three books that contain important pieces of Mr = Miller’s art..

The west of Alfred Jacob Miller– Which is mostly the Walter = Collection which=20 are later works. There are a lot of good works in here.

Alfred Jacob Miller, Artist of the Oregon Trail– Has some of = his original=20 works done in the field as well as later works. Fun to see what he = decides to=20 change.

Accross the Wide Missouri– More of his field skretches.

These books are all relatively expensive and difficult to purchase, = but I=20 have found them in several smallish libraries.

I have pondered which would be more accurrate a field sketch or a = later work.=20 If I were the artist my field sketch would lose details that I would = hope to=20 remember later. They would be attempts to capture the action. The kind = of pants=20 they were wearing etc would be irrelavant. On the other hand, memory and = artistic license may make my later works less reliable.

Alas, I wish that those who accuse Miller of "Artistic Licence" and=20 romanticism could give more specifics as to what that could mean.

Lastly, Laura Glise gave Mike an A+ which may be to high a grade = since he=20 claimed the picture, Called "The Swing", represents the "only "girlie" = picture=20 authenic to the fur trade." Miller and Kurtz were both much more amorous = than=20 that. Although the swing is probably arguably the best example, a = friend’s wife=20 who looked at The west of Alfred Jacob Miller accused me of "Indian = Porn." Keep=20 looking Mike more breast await you.

Humbly

WY

. ,

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0157F.E92DD9E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Date: 04 Sep 2000 02:51:27 GMT Mr. Moore, How is everything up in Northern Texas? I appreciate the offer and would like a copy of the article and illustration. I wondered if your caps key was stuck? I noticed Texas wasn't capitalized! I'm sure it was a computer malfunction but thought I would alert you to it for future reference. Thanks again. Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 04 Sep 2000 03:04:51 GMT WY, -Are any of these styles better documented or what is the logic for choosing one over the other? As with everything else it depends on your character/persona as to which style is more appropriate for you. Are you portraying a rocky mountain trapper, a hunter for Santa Fe bound caravans or a free trapper pilching beaver from a Mexican pond? All of this plays an important part in styles. I feel like the Indian leggings with all of the beadwork commonly seen at rendezvous nowadays is completely inappropriate for an ACCURATE portrayal of anybody involved in the furtrade aside from the Indians themselves, but this is just my opinion. Hope this helps some...good luck! Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Date: 04 Sep 2000 01:41:11 EDT WY I gave Mike an A+ because "he looked" at what I suggested. He followed Miller's trail/art, which I find extremely significant in the Rocky Mountain fur trade. My opinion aside, most scholars agree that Miller's field sketches were much more authentic (accurate) than his later paintings. Miller found a formula-of-sorts on which the American public binged. It is important to remember that before Miller, Catlin, Bierstadt, America had not glimpsed what Lewis and Clark and others had seen. I digress. Alfred Jacob Miller wasn't keen on Captain Stewart's way of life. He was a native of Baltimore. He was a classical individual, he studied in Paris and was a portrait painter. Stewart found him in New Orleans. I assume Stewart's offer was too generous to ignore, so Miller ventured past his comfort zone. Any art historian will tell you that as Miller painted the west years later, HE DIGRESSED from what was the reality prior to 1837, his Rendezvous with the Captain. Questions raised are always enlightening. Respectfully, Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Date: 04 Sep 2000 06:48:06 -0600 Laura, I have a question on Miller's works. I have seen both large and small paintings by him. Is it a easy assmuption to say that the larger landscape works where done later (in his studio) and the smaller pieces made in the west while on the trail? mike. Wind1838@aol.com wrote: > WY > > I gave Mike an A+ because "he looked" at what I suggested. He followed > Miller's trail/art, which I find extremely significant in the Rocky Mountain > fur trade. > > My opinion aside, most scholars agree that Miller's field sketches were much > more authentic (accurate) than his later paintings. Miller found a > formula-of-sorts on which the American public binged. It is important to > remember that before Miller, Catlin, Bierstadt, America had not glimpsed what > Lewis and Clark and others had seen. I digress. > > Alfred Jacob Miller wasn't keen on Captain Stewart's way of life. He was a > native of Baltimore. He was a classical individual, he studied in Paris and > was a portrait painter. Stewart found him in New Orleans. I assume > Stewart's offer was too generous to ignore, so Miller ventured past his > comfort zone. > > Any art historian will tell you that as Miller painted the west years later, > HE DIGRESSED from what was the reality prior to 1837, his Rendezvous with the > Captain. > > Questions raised are always enlightening. > > Respectfully, > Laura Glise > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Date: 04 Sep 2000 07:11:49 -0600 scott, my part of the country was never in TEXAS, even on the "a new map of TEXAS, oregon and california" (1846) by the s. augustus mitchell co.,which shows your fair STATE going all the way up to the arkansas river and then a thin sliver on the western slope all the way almost to south pass. i live in what was kansas territory. dick wooten might disagree with me, for he want it called colorado territory (but colorado never really was a terriitory except in the minds and tavern of the local people). we went from the kansas territory to state hood. hope that clears that up. the whole story of how him and a few people started printing money and set up a local goverment is great! would love to get you the info, should I sent it or email you direct? my scanner does jpeg best. if i find that i can't get the contary thing to do well, i'll just transcribe it and get it to you. you TEXASIANS are soooo senitive on all ascepts of your state (you know i'm kidding , of course with all of this), you would think they would just stay put in their fair STATE and not populate the rest of the west. mike. scott mcmahon wrote: > Mr. Moore, > How is everything up in Northern Texas? I appreciate the offer and would > like a copy of the article and illustration. I wondered if your caps key was > stuck? I noticed Texas wasn't capitalized! I'm sure it was a computer > malfunction but thought I would alert you to it for future reference. Thanks > again. > Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 04 Sep 2000 09:05:09 -0700 Actually or opinion is very good on the beaded leggings. They would, on the most part, never have been worn. The original style for the fur trade period are very long with lots of fringe, which I think would have gotten in your way. Some leggings could have been traded for or bought, since Indians did have a thriving "tourist industry" such as at some of the forts. I hate to see full beads leggings and shirts on the "gentlemen" of the period. Linda Holley scott mcmahon wrote: > WY, > > -Are any of these styles better documented or what is the logic for > choosing one over the other? > > As with everything else it depends on your character/persona as to which > style is more appropriate for you. Are you portraying a rocky mountain > trapper, a hunter for Santa Fe bound caravans or a free trapper pilching > beaver from a Mexican pond? All of this plays an important part in styles. I > feel like the Indian leggings with all of the beadwork commonly seen at > rendezvous nowadays is completely inappropriate for an ACCURATE portrayal of > anybody involved in the furtrade aside from the Indians themselves, but this > is just my opinion. Hope this helps some...good luck! > Scott McMahon > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Date: 04 Sep 2000 08:59:07 -0700 Laura, As usual, you are right on all points. Miller's works are extremely important because he was actually there at a Rendezvous, and actually made sketches of the fur trappers. Having had the oppurtunity to view a good portion of Miller's work, There is no doubt he used some artistic liscense after he returned to civilization. After all, the truth is almost never as exciting as fiction. I will always argue, there are "one pole, Miner's Tents" in the background in one of Miller's original pencil drawings, but they do not showup in the painting he made from that sketch. What is certain is the fact that Miller's work is the only artistic record of how the trappers dressed, what things they carried, how they carried them, and how they went about their daily lives, His work is invaluable in making the transition between what has been written about how the fur trappers looked and actually being able to visualize it. My 2 cents worth, Pendleton -----Original Message----- WY I gave Mike an A+ because "he looked" at what I suggested. He followed Miller's trail/art, which I find extremely significant in the Rocky Mountain fur trade. My opinion aside, most scholars agree that Miller's field sketches were much more authentic (accurate) than his later paintings. Miller found a formula-of-sorts on which the American public binged. It is important to remember that before Miller, Catlin, Bierstadt, America had not glimpsed what Lewis and Clark and others had seen. I digress. Alfred Jacob Miller wasn't keen on Captain Stewart's way of life. He was a native of Baltimore. He was a classical individual, he studied in Paris and was a portrait painter. Stewart found him in New Orleans. I assume Stewart's offer was too generous to ignore, so Miller ventured past his comfort zone. Any art historian will tell you that as Miller painted the west years later, HE DIGRESSED from what was the reality prior to 1837, his Rendezvous with the Captain. Questions raised are always enlightening. Respectfully, Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Date: 04 Sep 2000 09:22:53 -0700 > Frank, > > Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most > upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he > has damn near wore us out....... > Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved, > not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather.. > > Concho. > > Hi Concho, > > This is what I am talking about. I have walked away from opportunity > because they did not care if it was portrayed right. And most groups fail > to act together when it comes to money on the spot......... > > Walt Hey Walt, When they realize, if they ever do - maybe we can make a difference in the way things are done in this industry. In "Black Robe", "The Mountain Men", "Centennial" and "Son of Morning Star", along with a few others they used folks like Jerry Crandall, Kathy Smith and Jerry Farenthalt for clothing, advise and general knowledge (only bits and pieces where taken and used), but is was a start. Now Mark Baker has had a chance at this roll in a couple of movies, again small amounts of advise where used, still a start in the right direction. Like you say a couple hundred a day will change many folks mind. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Date: 04 Sep 2000 12:53:02 EDT Don't you know Alfred Jacob Miller would be tickled pink (or mauve, or fuschia) that we hold his work in such high regard; considering it not only fine art but some of the finest historical reference! I don't think we can make that assumption regarding size, Mike. All paintings are documented by size and year when they are cataloged by museums. Best use the information documented by the curators and then compare it to where Miller was at the time. We do know that Miller returned to Scotland with Stewart (I think for two years, i.e. Murthley Castle) and painted the larger murals which corresponded to his field sketches. When I first jumped on the list a couple of years ago, I was much more familiar with Catlin. But there were some excellent discussions on Miller, I would suggest anyone dig into our archives to learn more. Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Date: 04 Sep 2000 17:14:15 GMT Mike, Well I never! ...It's good to see somebody up in your part of the country has a sense of humor about this subject! I was up at Bent's Fort in July and got to listen to all the anti-Texan propoganda, what's that all about? I had people completely mad at me because Texas, a hundred and fifty years ago, claimed the land now known as Colorado! If your scanner won't work I understand... how ever you want to send it is FINE with me...I really appreciate it! Contact me off-list and I'll send you my address if you'd rather mail it. Thanks again and look forward to seeing some of you guys down this way sometime. Most Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: mt man name Date: 04 Sep 2000 12:06:47 MDT carly. in nameing a person in the fur trade take to account the large % of french,scot,irsh that worked in the bus from the start. also nicknames were usely earned by habit ,mistake,or something that stood out. also the metis had two names plus,one fore the white trade and one fore the indian trade, nick names were also applied as above/ if your store appys to the southern fur trade, i ll let the colo, texas boys do there thing. if you need info of northern fur trade ,montana, canok, i may can help with. ter/ponyrider hiverant metis _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: metis Date: 04 Sep 2000 12:33:32 MDT bon jour: i put out a news letter for the hiverant metis. always looking for new mat. if anyone has storys or mat. on the cart meits of the west hunting grounds and during the fur trade a buf days . that i could use i would be much thankful. we also resuch the cart birgads of the nor. plains so we do have materal on the history of metis in the fur trade. any ifo is good. ter/ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Date: 04 Sep 2000 13:50:10 -0700 Scott, anti-Texan propoganda >> I don't understand it either. Those Colorado folks are more than happy to rid us of our hard earned green backs, all the while cussin us to the high heaven. a hundred and fifty years ago, claimed the land now known as Colorado! >>Yep it was part of Texas. Could be again ! Shouldn't be too much trouble. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Mike, Well I never! ...It's good to see somebody up in your part of the country has a sense of humor about this subject! I was up at Bent's Fort in July and got to listen to all the anti-Texan propoganda, what's that all about? I had people completely mad at me because Texas, a hundred and fifty years ago, claimed the land now known as Colorado! If your scanner won't work I understand... how ever you want to send it is FINE with me...I really appreciate it! Contact me off-list and I'll send you my address if you'd rather mail it. Thanks again and look forward to seeing some of you guys down this way sometime. Most Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: leggings Date: 04 Sep 2000 14:08:01 MDT linda;;i agree on leggings not being worn by mt of west. all though there is ref. of a man /low down on his luck only being clad in legging and breech cloth at fort union . the long frings of working leather clothing had a perpose. it help shed the water,acted as a camoflage of the two leged man form. and if a person need a piece of string to tye something up just wack of a piece of fring or two. if fact some of old timers looked at the shape of a persons frings to see how long had he had been on a hunt or trap run. i have done just this, it is realy handy but hard one skins. keep your eyes on the sky line watch your back trail ter/ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis Date: 04 Sep 2000 14:35:52 -0600 Ponyrider, check this out: http://www.cot.msubillings.edu/MAS/index.htm Look in the calendar of events Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggings Date: 04 Sep 2000 17:41:20 -0700 I would agree with you on some of the statements, but not in the Native American part of the use. THese were special clothing not to be cut at for "string" or dirtied up. It is hell to clean brian tan with all that decoration on it. Just PLAIN leggings are another thing. Some of the old Hidasta leggings were exceptionally long and went beyond the feet. But your everyday leggings, well yes, they can be used for what ever. Many of the Rendezvous guys are dressing up like full fledge tribal warriors. Maybe one or so, but not so many and not with all the beadwork. These gentlemen are mostly doing the 1870's and beyond to modern gunslinger? These types of outfits are impractical for the every day fur trapper. Linda Terrance Luff wrote: > linda;;i agree on leggings not being worn by mt of west. all though there is > ref. of a man /low down on his luck only being clad in legging > and breech cloth at fort union . the long frings of working leather clothing > had a perpose. it help shed the water,acted as a camoflage of the two leged > man form. and if a person need a piece of string to tye > something up just wack of a piece of fring or two. if fact some of > old timers looked at the shape of a persons frings to see how long had > he had been on a hunt or trap run. i have done just this, it is realy > handy but hard one skins. > keep your eyes on the sky line > > watch your back trail > ter/ponyrider > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: leggings Date: 04 Sep 2000 15:44:01 -0600 With regard to leggings not being worn by mountain men in the north...I think the term I have seen that they used for this item is Saver. Mountain men either brought with them what they wore. Made it themselves on location. Or traded for it. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 04 Sep 2000 19:58:08 -0600 --------------28C683C6BAD4BCC738E125CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn, Alot of the men I see at AMM gatherings who use leggings use them over knee breeches. Is this what you are talking about? Or were they used in the indian style with a loin cloth? While regular leggings can be used for trapping (it is nice not to have your leather pants wet all the time in cold weather), I don't figure that many used indian style ones. There are a few mentions of "white" men in Indian clothing, (Francis Parkman tells of one, and of couse Jim Beckwourth- but he is black, the first one mentioned I think was french) but most are either misunderstandings of written appearances or layered leggings like what I asked first. You can use leather leggings over cloth pants and be approiate when portarying a early traveler in the west. Is this a project you are thinking about? I use wool leggings over my clothes in winter. Botas (the south western style leggings) were used in the fur trade. I figure that alot of the workers on the adobe forts which were brought up here to build them used them. You also see references to them in journals for people living in Santa Fe and Toas. I would be careful using them in most portaryals- but even volume one of "The Mountain Man Sketch Book" shows botas on page 35. mike. Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > I noticed on my first AMM outing that several brothers used the same > basic leggings pattern (Roughly, 3/4 up the leg on the inside and > sloping up the outside with a built in strap to the belt). In contrast > there are the simple leggings used by the woods runners in the last > Museum of the Fur Trade Article ( Just above the knee and cut straight > accross) or in Bof Buckskinnings article on Southwest style (Just > above the knee, seam in front with pucker toe mocs). > > Are any of these styles better documented or what is the logic for > choosing one over the other? > > Humbly > > WY --------------28C683C6BAD4BCC738E125CA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn,
    Alot of the men I see at AMM gatherings who use leggings use them over
knee breeches. Is this what you are talking about? Or were they used in the
indian style with a loin cloth? While regular leggings can be used for trapping
(it is nice not to have your leather pants wet all the time in cold weather), I
don't figure that many used indian style ones. There are a few mentions of
"white" men in Indian clothing, (Francis Parkman tells of one, and of couse
Jim Beckwourth- but he is black, the first one mentioned I think was french)
but most are either misunderstandings of written appearances or layered leggings
like what I asked first. You can use leather leggings over cloth pants and be
approiate when portarying a early traveler in the west. Is this a project you are
thinking about? I use wool leggings over my clothes in winter. Botas (the south
western style leggings) were used in the fur trade. I figure that alot of the workers
on the adobe forts which were brought up here to build them used them. You also
see references to them in journals for people living in Santa Fe and Toas. I would
be careful using them in most portaryals- but even volume one of "The Mountain
Man Sketch Book" shows botas on page 35.
                                                    mike.

Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:

I noticed on my first AMM outing that several brothers used the same basic leggings pattern (Roughly, 3/4 up the leg on the inside and sloping up the outside with a built in strap to the belt). In contrast there are the simple leggings used by the woods runners in the last Museum of the Fur Trade Article ( Just above the knee and cut straight accross) or in Bof Buckskinnings article on Southwest style (Just above the knee, seam in front with pucker toe mocs).

Are any of these styles better documented or what is the logic for choosing one over the other?

Humbly

WY

--------------28C683C6BAD4BCC738E125CA-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 04 Sep 2000 20:14:53 MDT linda,mike. the leggings that i talk of would be the working and all around buckskins of a working trappers. which is not the cleanest work, it is hardwork ,trapping,skinning,bailing of furs and branding of bails etc.thus the clothing was will used every day and nite. with a working man the skins were a part of him made to serve a use.the metis women had a good busnes trading brain tanned clothing to the fur trade most were tailored to the new comers style with indian style mixed in. some had some beading and other types of decor including quilwork. most of the time the decor was simple for the working trapper.the "get down" beading was saved for their men. of couse quilwork was held in will standing. we all know how long quiwork would last under wet and rough work. i have been in skinning sence buckskin report came to this state and have seen the change of time trew the years. even the old time half breeds'would not dress in some of the outfits of todays mt.men i see gost shirts and other type s of cothing that are held in religious astem with some of ourmother tribes. bad medicine boy's. BOTAS OR HALF BREED LEGGINGSmt man sketch book also points out that the metis wore these.all though we make them more like indian style with a working and dress style. they were worn to protect the cloth pants and from yucca,snakes, and rough use.of course and art statment always.also keep snow out of moc's.leggings make from brain tan will get that angle from use on the 3/4 as you say.as for the shortones worn over thin cloth pants, were a carry over from styl worn by eastern tribes."good protection in bush on foot." i think a man would of come west fur trade with what his country provided and adapted to the area he was in or by his group.the old fur trapper and metis had their style to id there group. ref. some millers field drawings. as far as cleaning brain tan "being a man" i would rather make ,trade,steal,or wear untell fell off. native or moones is two differenr worlds. we are talking trapper now. if you wish to talk native ,sty with northern plains and i will talk. camp fire getting low so i ll get to my own metis camp.aurovwa mon amie's Aho _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 05 Sep 2000 10:37:44 -0600 camp fire getting low so i ll get to my own metis camp.aurovwa mon amie's Aho Hello Terrance, Where are you hailing from? I like seeing the use of the word Aho. A Crow word for thank you. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEXASLAZYB@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Aho Date: 05 Sep 2000 12:57:06 EDT Aho is also Kiowa for hello, I think. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Julia Subject: MtMan-List: OT - Bicycle Corps Date: 05 Sep 2000 10:14:31 -0700 Dear Mr. Crawford, I was indeed fascinated with the documentary on the Bicycle Solders that was on my local PBS station last evening, it was well done and the segments that you appeared on were very interesting. I would like to thank you for making mention of this program on this list, as I am not sure that I would have watched otherwise. I had never heard of this amazing trek that was made. After living for many years in the area of Montana that they crossed, I can remember scraping the gumbo much off my boots, I can imagine what it took to remove it from bike spokes, men did not come much tougher than those of the Bicycle Corp. Anyway, thanks again, it is a bit of American history that needs to be remembered. Sincerely, Julia ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Aho Date: 05 Sep 2000 12:09:38 -0600 Aho is also Kiowa for hello, I think. The Kiowa are reported to have lived in the 3 forks area in Montana before they headed south of here. My Crow friends talk about them. I wonder about the exact similarity fo the word. Maybe the answer will show up on the list. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan Sudman" Subject: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 05 Sep 2000 18:28:30 GMT Hi everyone. I'm new here. I am in nineth grade. I am very interested in American history. I have studied the Civil War extensively and the Oregon Trail to some extent. This year I will be studying the War of 1812, American Revolution, etc. in school as well as on my own. Thanks, Ethan Sudman (ethan_sudman@hotmail.com) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 05 Sep 2000 12:40:52 -0600 Hi everyone. I'm new here. I am in nineth grade. I am very interested in American history. I have studied the Civil War extensively and the Oregon Trail to some extent. This year I will be studying the War of 1812, American Revolution, etc. in school as well as on my own. Thanks, Ethan Sudman (ethan_sudman@hotmail.com) Hi Ethan, Welcome to the mountain man list. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 05 Sep 2000 11:53:32 -0700 Ethan, Welcome. You will find that there are many very knowledgeable folks on the list. To learn anything from them, you may have to initiate some questions though, as discussions of merit are not constantly on going. So is there something particular on your mind or do ya just want to set a spell enjoying the fire and see what comes up next? I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:28 AM > Hi everyone. I'm new here. I am in nineth grade. I am very interested in > American history. I have studied the Civil War extensively and the Oregon > Trail to some extent. This year I will be studying the War of 1812, American > Revolution, etc. in school as well as on my own. > > Thanks, > Ethan Sudman (ethan_sudman@hotmail.com) > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 05 Sep 2000 15:29:09 -0700 Greetings to you, young sir. Glad to see some NEW blood on the list. Feel free to ask questions and give some impute. And I am a History teacher....... Linda Holley Walt Foster wrote: > Hi everyone. I'm new here. I am in nineth grade. I am very interested in > American history. I have studied the Civil War extensively and the Oregon > Trail to some extent. This year I will be studying the War of 1812, American > Revolution, etc. in school as well as on my own. > > Thanks, > Ethan Sudman (ethan_sudman@hotmail.com) > > Hi Ethan, > > Welcome to the mountain man list. > > Walt > ORMC 1836-1837 > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 05 Sep 2000 15:08:41 -0600 Hello, Why don't we check the old boys: From Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell... "....a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, leggins,...." Osborne's punctuation wasn't too good, but what he meant came through loud and clear. Allen from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 05 Sep 2000 17:06:30 -0400 Welcome to the list, Ethan... :) Congratulations on your love of history... I think that is something most of us on this list share... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 05 Sep 2000 17:13:29 EDT Welcome Ethan, Good to see a youngster with a good thirst for knowledge. You found a good spot, a lot of knowledgeable folks here abouts. Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 07 Sep 2000 05:15:27 -0400 welcome to the list allen---glad to see you like history ---theres a bunch of well informed people on this site---pull up and enjoy the ciber fire and the chat---if you have a question then feel free to ask--- no such thing as a silly question if you are truly seeking a answer. "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 18:10:23 -0500 Date: 05 Sep 2000 17:10:51 -0600 Ethan Welcome to the History List. As you have already seen, the members here = are friendly and eager to share their knowledge. It is gratifying to = see a young man express an interest in history. Listen in and never be = afraid to ask a question or to offer your own thoughts. However, you should know that a small percentage of what is presented = here as chiseled -in-stone fact is sometimes less accurate than it = should be. When such a "fact" is presented its accuracy might be = challenged and debated at length....sometimes not, so beware of taking = everything you see here at face value. Some of what you might read is "rendezvous lore"...that is, = superficially accurate (or even hardly accurate at all) "facts" learned = at buckskinner rendezvous, etc. So I would caution you to listen to = what you hear but do your due diligence by checking and verifying the = information by your own research, using original sources if possible. = There is a gold mine of such sources available online at: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html I would suggest that you spend = some time here whenever you can. It is an incredible resource. Search through the bibliography of books that interest you so that you = can go directly to that author's sources for more and better = information. By doing that you might find, for instance, that Josiah = Gregg took down the cheap canvas wagon covers from his freight wagons as = he came near Taos on his trading expeditions from St Louis and = re-covered them with more expensive (and more heavily taxed) fabric from = the merchandise he was taking to Taos to trade, thus beating (cheating) = the Tax Man who didn't notice the switch. "Commerce of the Prairie" by = J. Gregg Doing the research will help you determine the accuracy of a statement = and will usually expose you to even more and better information. Good luck and have some fun along the way. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Date: 05 Sep 2000 18:53:26 -0600 Hey, Hope the last message and pic went through, where do you want me the send the good stuff? mike. scott mcmahon wrote: > Mike, > Well I never! ...It's good to see somebody up in your part of the country > has a sense of humor about this subject! I was up at Bent's Fort in July and > got to listen to all the anti-Texan propoganda, what's that all about? I had > people completely mad at me because Texas, a hundred and fifty years ago, > claimed the land now known as Colorado! If your scanner won't work I > understand... how ever you want to send it is FINE with me...I really > appreciate it! Contact me off-list and I'll send you my address if you'd > rather mail it. Thanks again and look forward to seeing some of you guys > down this way sometime. > Most Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Aho Date: 05 Sep 2000 21:24:47 EDT TEXASLAZYB@aol.com writes: > Aho is also Kiowa for hello, I think.>> You are correct about the Crow "Aho" being thank you. It is also thank you in Kiowa, however, they are pronounced differently. In Kiowa it is aaho'ow. Take a look at the following website: http://www.uusikaupunki.fi/~olsalmi/kiowa.html Crow and Kiowa are somewhat related linguistically. Crow is in the Shoshonean Language Group which is a subset of the Aztec-Tanoan (Utaztecan-Tanoan) group and Kiowa is its own language group (subset) also part of the Aztec-Tanoan group. I remain.... YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Bicycle Corps Date: 05 Sep 2000 21:27:29 EDT sirovetz@proaxis.com writes: > I was indeed fascinated with the documentary on the Bicycle Solders > that was on my local PBS station last evening...>> There is a great history, some memorabilia and the complete story of the Bicycle Soldiers in the Fort Missoula Museum in Missoula, Montana. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern Date: 05 Sep 2000 18:32:18 -0700 There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size, not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact title. Pat Quilter. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 9:36 PM Internet I haven't been following this topic very closely. Have any of you been able to find a source for Miller's original drawings ? I have been able to see some of them in museums and there are very interesting. There are things in the drawings that don't show up in his paintings which were done after he returned to civilization. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Mike. Well, I'm glad somebody on this list followed the trail and commented on Miller's magnificent art work. Don't you just wonder what was really going on that day. Old Alfred Jacob Miller, proper Baltimore artiste that he was, just may have just broken out into a sweat. Mr. Moore, you get the A+ in art history today. Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 05 Sep 2000 21:34:07 EDT Ethan: Ever study TALL TALES in school? Well, along with the history you'll catch a few tall tales from a few of the regulars here. Ya'll know who you are . . . . Wind1838 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Aho Date: 05 Sep 2000 21:35:32 EDT Wfoster@cw2.com writes: > The Kiowa are reported to have lived in the 3 forks area in Montana before > they headed south of here.>> The Kiowa did move into the southern Plains from the North in the eighteenth century. There is an account of the Kiowa move to the southern plains in N. Scott Momaday's, The Way to Rainy Mountain, 1969, University of New Mexico. I no longer have the book. Take a look at it, it is very interesting. I remain.... YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 05 Sep 2000 21:40:14 -0400 Wind1838 Wrote: "Ya'll know who you are . . ." > . She is talking to you Texians.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet Date: 05 Sep 2000 21:04:56 -0700 Pat, I was fortunate to be able to see a touring exibit of Miller's work some years ago, and I have never missed an oppurtunity to view his work since. I was impressed with all of it, but most of all by the original sketches. There are lots of details in the sketches that were not used in his painting, which were done later. If you can remember the title let me know. Like you I would buy a copy for myself. Larry Pendleton -----Original Message----- There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size, not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact title. Pat Quilter. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 9:36 PM Internet I haven't been following this topic very closely. Have any of you been able to find a source for Miller's original drawings ? I have been able to see some of them in museums and there are very interesting. There are things in the drawings that don't show up in his paintings which were done after he returned to civilization. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Mike. Well, I'm glad somebody on this list followed the trail and commented on Miller's magnificent art work. Don't you just wonder what was really going on that day. Old Alfred Jacob Miller, proper Baltimore artiste that he was, just may have just broken out into a sweat. Mr. Moore, you get the A+ in art history today. Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 05 Sep 2000 21:08:15 -0700 Don't start none Dennis. Go back under your rock. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Wind1838 Wrote: "Ya'll know who you are . . ." > . She is talking to you Texians.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 05 Sep 2000 21:59:49 -0400 Pendleton Wrote: "Go back under your rock." Larry, My Brother from the land of great warmth, where the sun shines brightly and pavement oooozes.. My heart is on the ground.. Rock, indeed.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Thank you in Navaho Date: 05 Sep 2000 22:29:12 -0400 (EDT) ahehee (accent mark on the first e) [c.f. Young and Morgan's The Navaho Language, p.1040] what does EE-CHIK in front of AAH-HO mean? (as spoken by Paints His Shirt Red) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 06 Sep 2000 03:38:29 GMT Gentlemen and Ladies, Tall Tales? From Texas...why everyone of those stories are true! Now I understand all of you folks not fortunate enough to live in Texas have alittle trouble dealing with the fact that WE have such a colorful and eventful past! Try and understand how we feel having to deal with such a great wealth of history! Well I'll not ramble on and rub our GREAT state's past in... Most Sincerely, Scott McMahon >Wind1838 Wrote: >"Ya'll know who you are . . ." > > . > >She is talking to you Texians.. >D _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 03:56:50 GMT Allen Hall wrote... From Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell... "....a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, leggins,...." The problem is that most descriptions aren't very descriptive...there is no doubt that leggings were worn but what type? I disagree with the "long fringe" myth being passed around at rendezvous, anyone who has ever done much in long fringed leggings knows what I'm getting at. I still maintain my standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work in...possibly for some sort of ceremonial use when dealing with new tribal "trade partners"? I think this would be rare since it would be more impressive to new trade partners to show off white wealth (ie. fancy frock coats, nice beaver hats and all of the pomp and ceremony that goes along with cementing trade relations). I've found a comment made concerning Texas Rangers wearing buffalo/deer skin leggings and breech clouts but this is the only reference I've seen...it doesn't mean they weren't used but it doesn't support a general use. As I said before it depends on your persona as to what style works for you...research is the best factor to base such a decision on. Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: Texans - - BS factor ?? Date: 06 Sep 2000 00:16:54 -0400 : Texans, tall tales, extremely hot, could there be a common demoniator ??? GGG Possibly the BS factor is in use. > Gentlemen and Ladies, > Tall Tales? From Texas...why everyone of those stories are true! Now I > understand all of you folks not fortunate enough to live in Texas have > alittle trouble dealing with the fact that WE have such a colorful and > eventful past! Try and understand how we feel having to deal with such a > great wealth of history! Well I'll not ramble on and rub our GREAT state's > past in... > Most Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > > >Wind1838 Wrote: > >"Ya'll know who you are . . ." > > > . > > > >She is talking to you Texians.. > >D > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 02:01:45 EDT Hello in the Camp! Sorry Scott But I will have to disagree with you. When you maintain the standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work in. Of course first we have to define what is meant by whites. For in the fur trade there was many full blooded halfblooded, and even quart blooded Indians working as Trappers. Not to mention the Spanish, Blacks, Hawaiians, French, English, Scots, and so on, from all parts of the country. Their back grounds and what was at hand would determine their stile of dress. There are accounts of them trading for moccasins and leggin's from Indians. First hand accounts of the fringe being long on there buck skins , 4 to 6 inches in length. This length of fringe is of the stile of the western Indians. For most eastern Indians wore shorter or no fringe on there leggin's. If you are talking about heavily decorated leggin's I would agree and fringe over 6 inches is gust asking for trouble in the field. The Coyote in me has made me tie more then one trapper with fringe a foot or longer to something gust for grins and giggles. I feel Boatas, hip high, plain or with very little decoration, Indian stile leggin's and in the early years of the fur trade, the mid thigh eastern stile leggin's would all be appropriate. It just depends on what time period and part of the country your working in to what stile of leggin's you choose. It was nice riddin with ya Wynn See Ya on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 03:48:36 -0600 At 03:56 AM 09/06/2000 GMT, you wrote: > The problem is that most descriptions aren't very descriptive...there is no >doubt that leggings were worn but what type? I disagree with the "long >fringe" myth being passed around at rendezvous, anyone who has ever done >much in long fringed leggings knows what I'm getting at. Long fringe is not all that practical, but shorter, 4-6 inch is easy to work in. I still maintain my >standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work >in... Why do you maintain that? Miller clearly shows nearly everyone wearing fringed garments. Breeches and leggins are described in journals. Actually working, riding, trapping in breeches with leggins is very practical, both then and now. >As I said before it depends on your persona as to >what style works for you...research is the best factor to base such a >decision on. > Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > Agreed here. Read about it, then go do it to make sure. I tell folks the two activities that best guide what you want/need for a Rocky Mountain trapper is riding horses and beaver trapping. It all kinda falls in place when you are involved in both of these experiences. From Fort Hall country, Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 03:54:59 -0700 > > Scott said.... I still maintain my > >standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work > >in... > Allen said..... Why do you maintain that? Miller clearly shows nearly everyone > wearing fringed garments. Breeches and leggins are described in journals. Actually > working, riding, trapping in breeches with leggins is very practical, both then and > now. Gentlemen..... From my readings of the Pacific Northwest (Canadian Fur Trade), I have found passages that speak of the whites wearing "indian clothing", and the scathing disdain that other whites felt for them upon finding them in the afore mentioned clothing. From these I gather that whites did wear leggings, but it was quite unfashionable to wear them anywhere near the more genteel furposts with their veneer of civilization. Kinda like wearing a hawiian shirt and shorts to work in a modern Investment Firm. Older books on the Northwest Company (1930's or so) also speak of the voyageurs wearing leggings. I do not argue the merits of leggings in trapping and working, they are quite comfortable and much cooler than pants. I do dispute the riding part.... it sucks after just a short while in the saddle, but perhaps this lad just needs more padding or more calluses...... not sure which . Regards from North Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern Date: 06 Sep 2000 07:13:24 -0600 Pat, Contact me off list. Ole # 718 olebjensen@earthlink.net ---------- >From: Pat Quilter >To: "'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'" >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern et >Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2000, 7:32 PM > >There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size, >not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph >or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my >friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource >and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact >title. >Pat Quilter. > >-----Original Message----- >From: larry pendleton [mailto:yrrw@airmail.net] >Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 9:36 PM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the >Internet > > >I haven't been following this topic very closely. Have any of you been able >to find a source for Miller's original drawings ? I have been able to see >some of them in museums and there are very interesting. There are things in >the drawings that don't show up in his paintings which were done after he >returned to civilization. >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: Wind1838@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 5:26 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet > > >Mike. Well, I'm glad somebody on this list followed the trail and commented >on Miller's magnificent art work. Don't you just wonder what was really >going on that day. Old Alfred Jacob Miller, proper Baltimore artiste that >he >was, just may have just broken out into a sweat. > >Mr. Moore, you get the A+ in art history today. > >Laura Glise > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Indian leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 13:28:00 GMT In 1834 Wyeth's expedition to the Columbia stopped and traded with the Kaw indians for "moccasins, leggings, and corn in abundance." These were obviously indian garments. A year ago I changed over to wearing brain tan "indian" leggings with knee breeches, and have found it to be the most functional, and comfortable outfit I have worn into the woods. The leggings are easily slipped off for trapping, but when worn riding they give protection to the leg, similar to chaps. The list could go on and on!! A brief text search on Dean's website using the words "leggins" or "leggings," will reveal some other interesting reading. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: leggings Date: 06 Sep 2000 07:34:04 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C017D4.D51FA3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable miller painted subjects, abound with long flowing, fringed clothing. I recall reading something that James clyman wrote about their, (he) = being dressed somewhat fanciful for their time and he being a little = apologetic for his youthful flair. I,ll find the exact quote later when I have more time =20 sincerely; Tom ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C017D4.D51FA3A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
miller painted subjects, abound with = long flowing,=20 fringed clothing.
I recall reading something that James = clyman wrote=20 about their, (he) being dressed somewhat fanciful for their time = and he=20 being a little apologetic for his youthful flair.
I,ll find the exact quote later when I = have more=20 time   
sincerely;  Tom
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C017D4.D51FA3A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 10:24:39 -0400 I do not know if this is period correct, but on the leggins that I have made and wear I have about 7" of fringe running about 3" down from the top. I do this because it I need a piece of lace in the field, one clip with the knife and I have lace. On the History channels Mountain Man show I noticed a gent with very long fringe. I can not see how this is productive as it seems it would get in the way, alot. FVR ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:56 PM > Allen Hall wrote... > > From Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell... > > "....a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, > leggins,...." > > The problem is that most descriptions aren't very descriptive...there is no > doubt that leggings were worn but what type? I disagree with the "long > fringe" myth being passed around at rendezvous, anyone who has ever done > much in long fringed leggings knows what I'm getting at. I still maintain my > standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work > in...possibly for some sort of ceremonial use when dealing with new tribal > "trade partners"? I think this would be rare since it would be more > impressive to new trade partners to show off white wealth (ie. fancy frock > coats, nice beaver hats and all of the pomp and ceremony that goes along > with cementing trade relations). I've found a comment made concerning Texas > Rangers wearing buffalo/deer skin leggings and breech clouts but this is the > only reference I've seen...it doesn't mean they weren't used but it doesn't > support a general use. As I said before it depends on your persona as to > what style works for you...research is the best factor to base such a > decision on. > Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Lockmiller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet Date: 06 Sep 2000 10:20:45 -0400 --------------18BD8DBDB9558D8EA2A81B0F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size, > not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph > or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my > friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource > and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact > title. > Pat Quilter. > I checked out Bibliofind and the following link http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/search.html?dealerid=&qauthor=&qtitle=Alfred+Jacob+Miller&qcomments=&minp=&maxp=&daysback=at+any+date&SUBMIT1=SEARCH will take you to what they have listed for Miller. Do any of the titles sound familiar? Manbear --------------18BD8DBDB9558D8EA2A81B0F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
 
There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size,
not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph
or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my
friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource
and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact
title.
Pat Quilter.
 
I checked out Bibliofind and the following link http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/search.html?dealerid=&qauthor=&qtitle=Alfred+Jacob+Miller&qcomments=&minp=&maxp=&daysback=at+any+date&SUBMIT1=SEARCH  will take you to what they have listed for Miller.  Do any of the titles sound familiar?
Manbear
 
  --------------18BD8DBDB9558D8EA2A81B0F-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan Sudman" Subject: MtMan-List: Strange question Date: 06 Sep 2000 15:31:28 GMT Here's a strange question. What do you think is the best definition of the term "mountain man"? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Strange question Date: 06 Sep 2000 11:55:17 -0400 > Here's a strange question. What do you think is the best definition of the > term "mountain man"? Ethan, I don't think it can be a definition. I think it is more of a fact of "being"... The Mountain Man wanted and enjoyed the freedom of not being around the big cities, and the rules they had. Not that they didn't have rules in the Mountains... BUT... there the Mountain Man enforced them... and did so with a vengence. They were "free" to live their own lives... to be themselves... which was frowned upon back in the East and the cities. Got to my web page... www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216 ... That may explain more... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 16:19:02 GMT First of all I'm not saying leggings are not correct-I couldn't disagree more with this...what I mean by Indian leggings is the beaded, quilled, painted, long fringed dress garments worn by modern rendezvousers. As to whites(Iguess I should use the term non-Indians) wearing them to work in, there is no documentation to my kowledge to support that...anyone who has evidence to the contrary please let me know. Please don't misunderstand me..I agree leggings were worn by trappers, just not the fancy dress garments seen at modern rendezvous. My point was(and is) that the leggings worn by non-Indians would have been a common working garment, plain and generally undecorated. I have seen Miller's sketches showing fringed leggings, trousers and coats but no fancy dress Indian leggings on white trappers. Unless anyone has documentable proof of trappers wearing these garments to work in don't perpetuate the myth Sincerely, Scott McMahon. ps- this is just a thought...everyone told me when I got into this hobby that mountain men wore their finest at rendezvous...didn't Miller do his studies AT rendezvous? this would lead me to believe he might have seen alittle nicer clothes than what was commonly worn in the fields..just a thought _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Camp Dale Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Date: 06 Sep 2000 12:45:55 -0500 I'm one and proud of it, hadn't been for a few brave men, a few women too, in the 1830's and before, all of us west of the Sabine might have a different colored skin and speak a different language. I remind my relatives and friends in the beautiful state of Colorado every chance I get! Usually when I'm up there cooling off and breathing some cool fresh air, you know, according to some, it's all polluted down here. Dale Camp A Texian Wind1838 Wrote: "Ya'll know who you are . . ." > . She is talking to you Texians.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan Sudman" Subject: MtMan-List: An unusual question Date: 06 Sep 2000 18:27:33 GMT Here's an unusual question. In your opinion, what is the best definition of "mountain men" and what are the most distinguishing qualities about them? Thanks, Ethan Sudman (ethan_sudman@hotmail.com) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern Date: 06 Sep 2000 13:59:14 -0700 This entry sounds like the book I recall - note the description "Contains 200 plates, each with one page of accompanying text". Thanks for the search. Pat Quilter Ross, Marvin C.: The West Of Alfred Jacob Miller (1837) ; Norman, Oklahoma: University Of Oklahoma Press, (1951). First edition. Fine in tan buckram cloth with gilt lettering. 400+ pp. 9 color, 208 black and white reproductions. "..from the Notes and Watercolors in The Walters Art Gallery with an Account of the Artist by Marvin C. Ross." Contains 200 plates, each with one page of accompanying text. Chronology at end of an account of his Indian Pictures (sold) from 1846 to 1874. Index and bibliography. Offered for sale by Brick Walk Bookshop at US$50.00 -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 7:21 AM There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size, not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact title. Pat Quilter. I checked out Bibliofind and the following link http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/search.html?dealerid= &qauthor=&qtitle=Alfred+Jacob+Miller&qcomments=&minp=&maxp=&daysback=at+any+ date&SUBMIT1=SEARCH will take you to what they have listed for Miller. Do any of the titles sound familiar? Manbear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern et Date: 06 Sep 2000 18:55:08 EDT The book is called "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller". It is out of print but not too difficult to find in the used circles. I think they usually run about $75 for a decent copy but the notes on each picture are worth much more than that. I'm at work. When I get home, I 'll provide more info on the book. Patrick Surrena AMM 1449 Jim Baker Party, Colorado ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: An unusual question Date: 06 Sep 2000 18:49:29 -0600 Ethan, As you have seen everyone has a different opinion on your questions. These men ( the mountain men) can be very complex and one answer some times doesn't do justice for all. But, there are some basic qualities which link them together. They all seem to be adventureous, courageous and independent. They had to be self reliant, and able to improvise when needed. While many didn't have much past a 3rd or 4th grade education (by today's standards) some were very smart and you had to be to live in the west. Book learning only got you so far when you needed to be able to protect yourself, provide food and shelter and know which tribes were friendly or not. The mountain men were a wide variety of people. I even hesitate to call them mountain men, I'm pretty sure that is a fairly new term, they called themselves "mountaineers" or trappers (if that was what they did for a living). And there were alot more than just trappers in the west- people who came west for their health, rich adventurers, camp keepers and even traders to name a few. You can put a time frame on individuals to help with your definitions (ones who came to the rendezvous) to help narrow it down. But even that some times leaves out people who were in the west. Alot of old timers have thought about that question, not came up with a good response. Maybe, even if a good definition could be written, a part of the mystic of the mountain man era would be lost. We tend to make heros out of these men, but alot of them were just making a living and living their lives - just like us. But the times when they did it, were exciting! mike. Ethan Sudman wrote: > Here's an unusual question. In your opinion, what is the best definition of > "mountain men" and what are the most distinguishing qualities about them? > > Thanks, > Ethan Sudman (ethan_sudman@hotmail.com) > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 20:40:38 -0700 Frank, Don't base historical precedence on movies or TV, least of all the "Mountain Man" documentary on the History channel. The production, saddled with budget and scheduling problems, chose the most decorative buckskinners it could find to represent trappers in the field (complete with wrist watches). High fashion dudes wading in mountain streams posing for the camera was typical. I'd guess you'd call those "beaver shots". Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 7:24 AM > I do not know if this is period correct, but on the leggins that I have made > and wear I have about 7" of fringe running about 3" down from the top. I do > this because it I need a piece of lace in the field, one clip with the knife > and I have lace. > > On the History channels Mountain Man show I noticed a gent with very long > fringe. I can not see how this is productive as it seems it would get in > the way, alot. > > FVR > ----- Original Message ----- > From: scott mcmahon > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:56 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's > > > > Allen Hall wrote... > > > > From Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell... > > > > "....a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, > > leggins,...." > > > > The problem is that most descriptions aren't very descriptive...there is > no > > doubt that leggings were worn but what type? I disagree with the "long > > fringe" myth being passed around at rendezvous, anyone who has ever done > > much in long fringed leggings knows what I'm getting at. I still maintain > my > > standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work > > in...possibly for some sort of ceremonial use when dealing with new tribal > > "trade partners"? I think this would be rare since it would be more > > impressive to new trade partners to show off white wealth (ie. fancy frock > > coats, nice beaver hats and all of the pomp and ceremony that goes along > > with cementing trade relations). I've found a comment made concerning > Texas > > Rangers wearing buffalo/deer skin leggings and breech clouts but this is > the > > only reference I've seen...it doesn't mean they weren't used but it > doesn't > > support a general use. As I said before it depends on your persona as to > > what style works for you...research is the best factor to base such a > > decision on. > > Sincerely, > > Scott McMahon > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 21:21:12 -0700 Also on the History Channel program was a scene of indians "mutilating" dead mountain guys...they musta been laying there a long time as the indians portrayed in the scene were carring lever guns. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 22:44:33 -0600 At 03:54 AM 09/06/2000 -0700, you wrote: Lee, Guess you'd better work on the calluses , guys in our party have regularly rode with breeches and leggins for extended rides. They swear by it (not at it)! For trapping, there's no doubt that breeches are the way to go, at least out here in the Rocky's where it gets mighty cold. Take care and good luck on the trap lines! Allen >I do not argue the merits of leggings in trapping and working, they are quite >comfortable and much cooler than pants. I do dispute the riding part.... it sucks >after just a short while in the saddle, but perhaps this lad just needs more padding or >more calluses...... not sure which . > >Regards from North Idaho > >Lee Newbill > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 06 Sep 2000 22:46:15 -0600 At 09:21 PM 09/06/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Also on the History Channel program was a scene of indians "mutilating" dead >mountain guys...they musta been laying there a long time as the indians >portrayed in the scene were carring lever guns. Like Bridger said, "meat don't spoil in the mountains" Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: leggins' Date: 07 Sep 2000 07:23:32 -0500 Just a question about leggins', and it is a question. I have no knowledge on this subject and am not adding to the debate. Would not trappers have worn leggins' or something similar when riding their horses or mules to protect their legs, similar to cowboy chaps? Just wonderin' Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 07 Sep 2000 10:07:44 -0400 Larry, I enjoyed the Mountain Man documentary but I did take it with a grain of salt. My wife calls me the movie spoiler because on historical movies I usually pick up some of the details that are not correct. When I looked at their buckskins, I was just wondering how they kept them so clean. I use my leggins and longhunter shirt for the rendezvous and the muzzleloading hunting trips I take and I must say, they are not pretty. They are however getting a bit more waterproof. Beaver Shots, LOL FVR ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 11:40 PM > Frank, > Don't base historical precedence on movies or TV, least of all the > "Mountain Man" documentary on the History channel. The production, saddled > with budget and scheduling problems, chose the most decorative buckskinners > it could find to represent trappers in the field (complete with wrist > watches). High fashion dudes wading in mountain streams posing for the > camera was typical. I'd guess you'd call those "beaver shots". > > Larry Huber > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frank V. Rago > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 7:24 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's > > > > I do not know if this is period correct, but on the leggins that I have > made > > and wear I have about 7" of fringe running about 3" down from the top. I > do > > this because it I need a piece of lace in the field, one clip with the > knife > > and I have lace. > > > > On the History channels Mountain Man show I noticed a gent with very long > > fringe. I can not see how this is productive as it seems it would get in > > the way, alot. > > > > FVR > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: scott mcmahon > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:56 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's > > > > > > > Allen Hall wrote... > > > > > > From Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell... > > > > > > "....a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, > > > leggins,...." > > > > > > The problem is that most descriptions aren't very descriptive...there is > > no > > > doubt that leggings were worn but what type? I disagree with the "long > > > fringe" myth being passed around at rendezvous, anyone who has ever done > > > much in long fringed leggings knows what I'm getting at. I still > maintain > > my > > > standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work > > > in...possibly for some sort of ceremonial use when dealing with new > tribal > > > "trade partners"? I think this would be rare since it would be more > > > impressive to new trade partners to show off white wealth (ie. fancy > frock > > > coats, nice beaver hats and all of the pomp and ceremony that goes along > > > with cementing trade relations). I've found a comment made concerning > > Texas > > > Rangers wearing buffalo/deer skin leggings and breech clouts but this is > > the > > > only reference I've seen...it doesn't mean they weren't used but it > > doesn't > > > support a general use. As I said before it depends on your persona as to > > > what style works for you...research is the best factor to base such a > > > decision on. > > > Sincerely, > > > Scott McMahon > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 09 Sep 2000 07:12:47 -0400 beaver shots--- buckskins or leggens dont ever get pretty or prettyer---they grow charactor---my elk pants are about 30 years old many patches and lots of charactor---but still highly useful built them when i first joined the AMM and have used then a lot ever sense---and brother they have charactor---the better half dont allow them in the house says that she thinks they are still alive or dead for many years----have a nice patenia on them --I dont see her point---just plain charactor to me---lots of shining times in them there drawers????? best to you and good skins---use quality leather and they seem to last forever---mine are getting a bit brittle from age and charactor---but are still highly usable and functional---including the patches--- YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: metis ter location Date: 07 Sep 2000 20:25:12 MDT SHOW DA!walt; iam a montana born and breed, ive lived all over montana as of now billings. ive done sweat lodge with crow,pikuni,sioux,stoney and n cheyenne. will talk your leg off if i can get a hold of you,do you have icq? i have ran horses on crow and n cheyenne Rez also have relatives on crow and cut figgers res with alot of hiverants on all mt rez. i an also known as E JE LA-SHE BID DA from miles city,by low land tibes' DEOAWAGOWIG MON AMIE!! TO ALL. i like leggins and paints if fact if it is brain tan its cool. lets talk alittle on tobbaco use in fur trade era, we all know the bad press part but the history use,s. TOBBACO, HOLY MIX,OBA ABOBA. I WILL FOLLOW UP THIS WEEKEND. tobbaco was a high selling item held and import part of everyday life of both, fur trade worker, and native indian. ter/ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 07 Sep 2000 19:34:31 -0700 On Wed, 06 September 2000, Allen Hall wrote: > > At 03:54 AM 09/06/2000 -0700, you wrote: > > Lee, > > Guess you'd better work on the calluses , guys in our party have > regularly rode with breeches and leggins for extended rides. They swear by > it (not at it)! > > For trapping, there's no doubt that breeches are the way to go, at least out > here in the Rocky's where it gets mighty cold. > > Take care and good luck on the trap lines! > > Allen > > >I do not argue the merits of leggings in trapping and working, they are quite > >comfortable and much cooler than pants. I do dispute the riding part.... > it sucks after just a short while in the saddle, but perhaps this lad just needs > more padding or more calluses...... not sure which . > > > >Regards from North Idaho > > > >Lee Newbill Lee, An article that Buck conner wrote on Marion Medina's breeches in one of the Tomahawk 7 long rifles had some interesting advise from those that wore them to Wes Houser and Charles Hanson; See Below: Both Wes and Charlie have agreed that if your in freezing water up to your knees, that the breeches or short pantaloons are by far the most practical. They will dry faster and be less of a problem than a pair of long pants in cloth or leather, plus its easier to slip on wool socks, leggings or wrap your lower leg area once on shore, than wear wet clothing that would freeze before getting dry in trapping weather. I have read of trappers, travelers and adventures stopping to remove their leg coverings to cross streams and creeks in their daily routines as they worked or moved across this country. One account tells of several travelers being way laid as they were putting on their wool socks and footwear after crossing a stream, the robbers took those items along with their other goods leaving them to suffer with bare skin and freezing conditions. Read another account of trappers using leather uppers coming down to the knee with blanket sewed on at this point to cover the lower leg and calf area, several of the re-enacters and brothers of the AMM have worn this arrangement for years and claim the blanket dries very quickly. Believe artice is on the AMM JIM BAKER PARTY web site. Concho. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis ter location Date: 07 Sep 2000 19:42:23 -0700 On Thu, 07 September 2000, "Terrance Luff" wrote: > > TO ALL. i like leggins and paints if fact if it is brain tan its cool. > lets talk alittle on tobbaco use in fur trade era, we all know the > bad press part but the history use,s. TOBBACO, HOLY MIX,OBA ABOBA. > I WILL FOLLOW UP THIS WEEKEND. tobbaco was a high selling item > held and import part of everyday life of both, fur trade worker, and > native indian. ter/ponyrider > _________________________________________________________________________ Ponyrider, Here's an interesting little item written years ago on tobacco by an old friend, add what you know to it, if you will. TOBACCO IN NORTH AMERICA by Roy S. Boyer, Sr. Published 1951; Pennsylvania Outdoors Most of the Indian tribes in what is now the United States and southern Canada grew and used tobacco in daily use. As the influence of the European moved over the country-side, native tobaccos were gradually replaced by South American varieties. By the 19th century, processed tobacco had become an extremely important commodity. The common native tobacco found in the eastern United States and southwestern Canada was Nicotiana rustica, a large plant with yellow flowers. First found in the Virginia settlements and introduced in Europe. Nicotiana attenuata, was found in the western half of the United States and parts of southwestern Canada. It is reported to being growing wild in some of these areas today. Nicotiania miltivaluis, was grown by the Crow and Shoshoni, along with several other tribes in Oregon, Idaho and western Montana. Nicotiania Bigelovii, was grown in California in several different varieties. Nicotiania quadrivalvis, a small plant only 2 feet high with white flowers and small leaves was found with the Mandan, Arikara, Hidatsa, Omaha and Pawnee tribes. Nicotiana tabacum, originally native to South America is most likely what is found in the late 19th century through-out the United States and southern Canada and seen a lot today. The Spaniards began growing tobacco in the first part of the 16th century, as were the new settlers in southern New York and Pennsylvania in the 1650’s. With some research you will find that the tobacco business was a good cash crop that the local governors of the colonies and later states were quite involved in, building large warehouses to store and dry this valuable resource. While others involved in the business were moving it through areas that were not watched as closely as others, voiding heavy taxes on their product. Many of the traders would work with the growers to move the rolls of tobacco into French territory and the trade of furs among those trappers. The history of tobacco, Native Americans and various periods of our countries growth, the Fur Trade , etc. can fill a book shelf. ************************ Concho. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis ter location Date: 07 Sep 2000 22:14:58 -0600 SHOW DA!walt; iam a montana born and breed, ive lived all over montana as of now billings. ive done sweat lodge with crow,pikuni,sioux,stoney and n cheyenne. will talk your leg off if i can get a hold of you,do you have icq? i have ran horses on crow and n cheyenne Rez also have relatives on crow and cut figgers res with alot of hiverants on all mt rez. i an also known as E JE LA-SHE BID DA from miles city,by low land tibes' DEOAWAGOWIG MON AMIE!! Ponyrider, You can call me at 633-2497. Not a long distance call. In Billings next Wednesday evening Gary Johnson from Lodge Grass will be addressing the audience at the Yellowstone County Museum up on the rimrocks across from the airport. Do you know him? He will be speaking from 7 pm to 8:15 pm. The agenda Title Explorers, Trappers and Traders to honor Archeology Week was published in the Billings Gazette. Your hometown paper today. Did you see it? Do you know my brother Vincent Crooked Arm or my son Pious Real Bird? The Clark Bottom group have some yearly events near Laurel. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: NMLRA Eastern Ronny Date: 08 Sep 2000 01:14:43 -0400 If anyone is gonna be at the NMLRA Eastern in Lovingston, VA this month, please stop by the Mouse House and sit a spell... always coffee on, meat in the pot, and other libations available... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 08 Sep 2000 08:54:03 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C01972.56A390A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am sorry I did not make myself more clear on the legging subject when = I first brought it up. I started with Mr Russell's quote which Allen = repeated for us. These were worn with breeches (sp), not Indian style. = In answer to a question I was asked, I asked because I seek to know not = because it applies directly to a project. My assumption to this point is that a mountaineer with ties to Spain = would likely have a bota style legging. Ones with ties to western tribes = may take on that higher up, slanting over the hip. While a trapper with = leaning to more half breed/ eastern tribe or maybe even French would = have a just over the knee and tied around the leg style. These assumptions are open to criticism. Since the two subjects on the board lately have crossed in my mind, one = of the things that I have noted in Miller's work is that there is less = fringe in his early drawings. Can anyone tell me other things that = changed as he aged? Crazy, the pleasure was mine. Humbly=20 WY ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C01972.56A390A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am sorry I did not make myself more clear on the legging subject = when I=20 first brought it up. I started with Mr Russell’s quote which Allen = repeated for=20 us. These were worn with breeches (sp), not Indian style. In answer to a = question I was asked, I asked because I seek to know not because it = applies=20 directly to a project.

My assumption to this point is that a mountaineer with ties to Spain = would=20 likely have a bota style legging. Ones with ties to western tribes may = take on=20 that higher up, slanting over the hip. While a trapper with leaning to = more half=20 breed/ eastern tribe or maybe even French would have a just over the = knee and=20 tied around the leg style.

These assumptions are open to criticism.

Since the two subjects on the board lately have crossed in my mind, = one of=20 the things that I have noted in Miller’s work is that there is = less fringe in=20 his early drawings. Can anyone tell me other things that changed as he = aged?

Crazy, the pleasure was mine.

Humbly

WY

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C01972.56A390A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 09 Sep 2000 08:56:50 -0700 On Fri, 08 September 2000, "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" wrote: > My assumption to this point is that a mountaineer with ties to Spain would > likely have a bota style legging. Ones with ties to western tribes may take on > that higher up, slanting over the hip. While a trapper with leaning to more half > breed/ eastern tribe or maybe even French would have a just over the knee and > tied around the leg style. Your assumptions are agreeable for styles of leg coverings, there will always be some that have other ideas, but what you have stated is well documentated and would think this discussion is closed. What would be another good item to kick the crap out of ! How about swords in the fur trade or length of knives in comparsion to the earlier "long hunter" types of blade ? In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 09 Sep 2000 13:36:33 -0400 Concho,\ Length of knives, I like that. I have seen and played with several great examples of BIG knives from the RMFT era. Even repro'ed more'n one.. I started carrying a large blade many years ago.. With it, I do not need to worry about a hawk or any type of digging instrument. It isn't a "fancy" teatotaling, thin, waspish gentleman's sticker.. It is made from a buggy spring, retains allot of heft, well balanced and will take out a 3" sapling in a couple of strokes, dig a cache, sliceup supper than shave you later. I think allot of these types were carried and fairly common. As it is a very useful tool. Period. THose that have been on the ground with me will attest to the "handiness" of this sticker. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pavel Grund" Subject: MtMan-List: question - mystic symbols on guns Date: 09 Sep 2000 18:44:44 +0200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C01A8E.0557EB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have interest of mystic symbols in relation to guns. In Europe are known diverse superstition and rituals, in America, as far = as I know, mainly diferent symbols. Knows everybody how amount have diferent symbols and in what times and = teritory was used? It was for exemple good knows symbols as crooked heart, X-cross, = eight-tips star etc... Thank you for all answers! Peggy ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C01A8E.0557EB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have interest of mystic symbols = in relation=20 to guns.
 
In Europe are known diverse = superstition and=20 rituals, in America, as far as I know, mainly diferent = symbols.
 
Knows everybody how amount have = diferent=20 symbols and in what times and teritory was used?
 
It was for exemple good knows = symbols as=20 crooked heart, X-cross, eight-tips star etc...
 
Thank you for all = answers!
 
Peggy
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C01A8E.0557EB20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Butcher Knives Date: 09 Sep 2000 14:45:35 EDT Whoa: I can attest to the handiness of Dennis's larger knives. I have one in my plunder. Very proud of it, too. Only problem is when I show it off I see this mischevious gleam in the eyes of others, followed with their saying, "Well, if you find it missing (and that goes for the Dennis Miles hatchet of yours, too) you'd best be advised to look for it in my camp." Makes a Green River knife look like a ladies pocket knife. My apologies to John Russell & Company Green River Works. Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's (Long) Date: 09 Sep 2000 14:22:50 -0600 > Miller clearly shows nearly everyone wearing fringed garments. >Breeches and leggins are described in journals. Actually >working, riding, trapping in breeches with leggins is very practical, >both then and now. I have seen and handled many of AJ Millers original paintings and sketches. I agree that he indeed did attend a rendezvous, and that his work is of value for research, but I have never felt that his work accurately depicted the clothing of all that attended the rendezvous. My humble reasoning is simple, try to assemble a tipi today as he shows them in his paintings. Count the number of poles, observe the smoke flaps and other details of lodges. If indeed he was simply exercising his artistic license in drawing and painting rendezvous lodges, is it not possible that this same artistic license could have been used in his depiction of the clothing worn by attending trappers? I have trapped in the Winter wearing both fringed and non fringed leggins (my spelling) neither in my minds eye are very comfortable, by wading in thigh deep water in freezing weather any fringe quickly soaks itself in the water, then when you get out of the water and move to your next set the fringe freezes. On the next entry and exit from the water this process continues until you discover that the candle like frozen fringe impedes your walking, plus the added weight is super uncomfortable. Now whip out your trusty "skinner" and trim the fringe off, still very uncomfortable but not all the little icicles banging against the brush and your legs. Far more practicle but not shown by Mr, Miller is knee breeches and wool blanketing leggings. I also found it necessary to cheat and wrap strips of the same blanketing around my moccasin soles to prevent the soaked soles from slipping on the slick creek bottoms. The strips also are an aid in walking from set to set on icy snowy ground. My source for this information cannot be found in any documented source or book, but is from my own personal experience hunting Beaver for nearly twenty years in the streams of Colorado. My Goal was to attempt to re-create the same experienced that an American fur hunter would have had during the period of 1806 to roughly 1840. I am very grateful that Mr. Stewart brought Mr. Miller to the "Shining Mountains" I have enjoyed his art for many years and have gleaned much information from his work. My wife and I have traveled all over the U.S. to museums and showings of Mr. Millers renderings and will continue to do so. We have also traveled many miles to see Mr. Catlins and Mr Bodmers art, these creative people have left a wonderful legacy to us history buffs! When Photography came to the west many cowboys wanted pictures to send home to the family, they put on their best duds, borrowed knives, guns and big hats or whatever it took to give them a special look when going to the "Photo Parlor". Is it not possible that those posing for Mr. Miller borrowed or traded for the fringed clothing just to create an individual "trappers look"? I shall maintain an open mind on Millers documentation of how and what a trapper wore, I shall respect his artistic license but I will never stop wishing for documentation other than A.J.Miller. Respectfully, Old Coyote ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Butcher Knives Date: 10 Sep 2000 03:41:11 EDT Hello in the camp When it comes to knives I am of the opine that any knife with a blade over 8" is to much knife. I prefer a knife with a blade of 5" or 6" they are more useful when it comes to gutting, skinning and butchering game. I have been collecting old butcher knives for some time. Knives with blades of this size, with much blade left are hard to find the reason is they have been used up. I have found it easy to find larger old butcher knives in farley good shape. I think the reason why is they were not as useful so they did not get used as much, there for there are more of them around to day. Just thought I would put my two cents in. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Butcher Knives Date: 10 Sep 2000 07:35:13 -0400 Crazy, I carry the large knife & I also carry a knife with a 6.5" blade for general chores.. The type of big knife that I was talking about was not a butcher type. But a large forged knife.. A big butcher is good for only sliceing, as it is too thin and flimsy for larger hamp chores (stake making, hoop cuttung, digging &ct) D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Butcher Knives Date: 10 Sep 2000 07:32:14 -0500 -----Original Message----- > I have found it easy to find larger old butcher knives in farley good shape. I >think the reason why is they were not as useful so they did not get used as >much, there for there are more of them around to day. I think original butcher type knives are easier to find primarily because of the shear numbers that were produced. If you want a real collecting challenge try and find an original big hand forged knife from the RMFT era like Dennis is describing. Check out Madison Grants book "The Knife in Homespun America" to see some good examples. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Lockmiller Subject: MtMan-List: Old knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 11:38:04 -0400 --------------B5D0CEB753D0E3C500C65CC1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the subject of discussion seems to have switched to knives, I thought I'd get your thoughts on this old knife that I found for sale on Ebay. The descripion says the butt is dated 1845 but I'm curious as to whether this style could have been used in the RMFT. Manbear http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=432240855 --------------B5D0CEB753D0E3C500C65CC1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the subject of discussion seems to have switched to knives, I thought I'd get your thoughts on this old knife that I found for sale on Ebay.  The descripion says the butt is dated 1845 but I'm curious as to whether this style could have been used in the RMFT.
Manbear

 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=432240855 --------------B5D0CEB753D0E3C500C65CC1-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 11:52:16 -0400 Manbear.. Nice knife.. But be very aware that it may be 155 yrs old or 155 days old. I am immediately a little skeptical because ther is no "sharpening wear" on the knife. Maybe it wasn't used that much, but it is something to look at. And as with every thing on E-Bay.... "Caveat Emptor " D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TOPIC-Mel Gibson story Date: 10 Sep 2000 09:04:31 -0700 Well folks, Sitting hear reading the Sunday paper and found in the "Parade" section somethings interesting that we read on this list a whlie back. Referring to the e-mail about a story Paul Harvey had on his radio program. The one about a young man grossly beaten and disfugured until a priest arranged free plastic surgery, it said the man was Mel Gibson - this was during the release of his new movie "The Patriot". Paul Harvey was asked about the story and heres his reply; "A distorted story about Mel Gibson is being credited to my radio broadcast," Harvey says. "Don't believe everything on the Internet." This was not a true event. Later. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 12:13:48 -0400 Something else that makes me say "Hmmmmmm" is the attachment of the blade to haft. It isn't pinned, although the tang may be all the way thru and peened with a washer (can't see the pommel) And before anyone gets to typing, reminding me that "antler, when boiled softenes to a degree that you can drive the tang in and the antler will grip it like iron when it cools.." I know this, as I do them this way, but the seller says that the knife is "very solid" And I have had the privilage to play with a bunch of antler hafted knives of the period & earlier. And although allot of them were solid, the majority were not, unless they were "restored" and kept in a climate contolled area.. 155 yrs of hot, cold, wet, dry & and handling tends to play hell with this method of attachment. There are exception, of course.. But it is something else to look at. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 10 Sep 2000 09:18:22 -0700 On Sat, 09 September 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote: > Length of knives, I like that. I have seen and played with several great > examples of BIG knives from the RMFT era....... Dennis, I have seen the work you did for Buck and have to agree that you make one fine, strong knife. Buck has told me about the knife you just mentioned, said he needed to move some of his original and fancy reproduction knives, then he would have you make him one to replace other items carried in camp mess. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: The Patriot revisited Date: 10 Sep 2000 12:12:52 -0500 According to Parade Magazine in the Sunday papers, that story about Mel Gibson getting his about tore off as a young man is pure hokum. Paul Harvey is reportedly denying he broadcast that story. Gee, whiz if we can't believe what we see on the Internet, what can we believe? Parade Magazine? :-) Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: tobacco/knife in fur trade Date: 10 Sep 2000 11:30:19 MDT concho srry so long getting back on nicotiana multivalis was not smoked by lot tribes was cereonially plant and had meth. connection to the stars.,all so called short tobbacco.tall tobbacco nicotiana qadirivalvis was anciently smoked and came to upper plains threw the hidatsa trade . the hudson bay a other used tobbac a giving item and trade.the short clay pipe was also big in trade goods. the trapper would use the smoke from pipe to blow on hands will working to keep skiters off. smoke in face would help with insects. by first using for this lend to adiction to the nicotin then the stedy use of tob.the pipe was also used to measure time of travel. such as two pipe loads of time will bring you to the fork in the trail. also a bag of tobbace would be placed in with colths to keep moths out. leaves and cigars would be place with beans, rice,ect. to keep insects away. leaves use in medical used for tooth ach and some wounds. the use in the native indian use would take page pluse/but for now just fur trade/ shipped in rope form block,carrot form. henst the tobbacco cutting board,used by trade centers and users in some form. tobbaco did not play the viiian. all time. i think also in the future we will find that the plant is not all bad but some good to. my ending line is that tobbacco had a big part if the fur trade era, in everday use and commerce and for use today students of fur trade should not let the position of tobbaco beforgotten. does not mean we have to use it but kown the why fors for it use. knife s , a part and need tool for today and yesterday skinner. the butch can be used as a ever day tool of camp if careful. i wore one hunting for years and learning how to use butch knife for all pureoses it served me will, all thought i was laught at at so ronney because of the simple plain knive. th butcher knife yesterday and today is simple low cost and easy to obtain because of the production. if broken from rough use it could be easly replace sence allways had soom for trade,and gifting. a few years ago i had a longnife made from blacksmith as of old. excellent camp tool would of been ex. backup weapon for blackpowder shooter. poor in butcher work and cutting my steaks. also being in moutains or praires there would of been no easy replacement. at sometime i thing the worker would some time endup with the butcher knife and would have to make due. the knife was a tool of work and weapon so personal choice would enter in , i aways belive in the book history account and study but to learn the working ways of why did they done that. then do it that way. you usely learn a good point. leggings,just a point, i have worn in cold and hot weather, on many miles of trails. for dress at rondys and shoots. leggings i mean plains indian style. they are very confi and cool it hot weather,in the woods of the montana mountain very protective. all though i would use elk moose brain tan. thicker leather, l do not know want you cosider long fringe.i like a little long so when i wack one off i got something to work with.to long can get in way in camp life bet no bigie on horsebace and you seem to get use to its length after a time. your info on tocco was good! were in the heck did you get thAT info. sure would like to raid you book self. breed joke!!! st TER/PONYRIDER from hiverant metis cart brigade captain of tens. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Compass Date: 10 Sep 2000 13:56:57 EDT What percentage of trappers do you think carried a compass? Perhaps percentage is not the right word . . . could one say most some few Appreciate it. Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Knife On Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 13:01:56 -0500 "The descripion says the butt is dated 1845 but I'm curious as to whether this style could have been used in the RMFT. " Manbear Manbear, I think this is a pretty good example of what might have been carried in the RMFT time period in the mountains. Be aware that this one might not be as old as the date on it. Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 13:05:13 -0500 Maybe it wasn't used that much, but it is something to look at. And as with every thing on E-Bay.... "Caveat Emptor " D D, As a dealer on Ebay, I can't believe that you would think that someone would be trying to pass off a new knife as an old one. Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Knife On Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 13:10:03 -0500 Manbear, If you are really interested in the knife on Ebay, considering the points that Dennis has brought up, Email the seller and ask some pointed questions about age, sharpening marks, and whether the tang goes all the way thru the handle and is peened. Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: compass Date: 10 Sep 2000 12:23:15 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C01B21.E50D51E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable after scanning the mountain men and the fur trade web site I found = several references to the use off compasses, [ often the word appears to = be used, to describe space/boundaries of something] the answer, in my = opinion would be "some". I think that if you were educated enough to = know how to use a compass you could probably afford one. there seems to = have been at least one in every large brigade. Sincerely; Tom ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C01B21.E50D51E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

after scanning the mountain men and the = fur trade=20 web site I found several references to the use off compasses, [ often = the word=20 appears to be used, to describe space/boundaries of something] the = answer,=20 in my opinion would be "some".  I think that if you were educated = enough to=20 know how to use a compass you could probably afford one.  there = seems to=20 have been at least one in every large brigade.    = Sincerely;=20 Tom
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C01B21.E50D51E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Compass Date: 10 Sep 2000 13:27:23 -0500 What percentage of trappers do you think carried a compass? Perhaps percentage is not the right word . . . could one say most some few Appreciate it. Laura Glise Without going to the books and seeking out references, I personally think that few of the mountainmen carried compasses. At that time compasses were considered as percision instruments, were made by clock and watchmakers, and were very expensive. During the Rev War, as well as the War of 1812, they were considered an officer's tool or instrument. During the RMFT time you may have seen bridgade leaders, factors, and the like carrying compasses. Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Compass Date: 10 Sep 2000 11:42:51 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 10:56 AM > What percentage of trappers do you think carried a compass? Perhaps > percentage is not the right word . . . could one say > most > some > few Ms. Laura Jean, I would venture to suggest that it was very few if any. I have no evidence one way or the other. As a practical matter, I don't see the need nor the mention of them being used by other than serious exploratory or survey Parties/Expeditioins. Same with many other fancy accutraments available to the civilized and cultured gentelman of the era. My opinion of course. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife On Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 11:50:36 -0700 I have a knife marked 1825. I bought it my first AMM National Rdvs (Henry's Fork). I put the 1825 date on it, as this was the site of the first Randavoos. This is my memento from the rdvs. My point is, just because it has numerals on it, doesn't mean they were put there at that point in time. Respectfully, hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 16:31:33 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C01B44.94E90880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, that is the style knife, and the seller is real proud of it.... = However, I agree wit hthe concensus that it probably is NOT 155 years = old... I have a powder horn wit hte date 1753 on it... It was made in = 1999... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C01B44.94E90880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, that is the style knife, and the = seller is=20 real proud of it.... However, I agree wit hthe concensus that it = probably is NOT=20 155 years old...  I have a powder horn wit hte date 1753 on it... = It was=20 made in 1999...
 
Ad Miller
Alderson, WV
------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C01B44.94E90880-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 18:17:09 -0400 HARDDOG Far be it from me to question the honesty and pureness of heart of a fine Mountaineering Gentleman such as yourself.... So, is it YOUR knife??? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 17:43:17 -0500 >HARDDOG >Far be it from me to question the honesty and pureness of heart of a fine >Mountaineering Gentleman such as yourself.... >So, is it YOUR knife??? >D No Dennis, It is not my knife, I am a gun maker. When I want a knife I just tell Todd Daggett what I want and he makes it. Besides there is to much competition in the knife business with you and everybody else making knives. YMOS, Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife On Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 17:58:35 -0500 -----Original Message----- >I think this is a pretty good example of what might have been carried in the >RMFT time period in the mountains. Be aware that this one might not be as >old as the date on it. Yes that is a neat looking knife and as Randy said a good example of what might have been carried. Is it old or new? No way of knowing by pictures if I were buying it I would want a return privilege, if your not experienced at judging age let someone like Dennis (Is there anyone else like Dennis?) or someone who is similarly qualified evaluate the piece for you. The blade shape of this knife is interesting kind of has the profile of a trade dagger, not the regular clipped type point. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: knifes mt trade Date: 10 Sep 2000 16:53:01 MDT ho camp comin in! on knifes would like to ref. 1837 sketchbook of the western fur trade,all so the book of buckskinning iv then don't for get good old stand by s hanson's sketch books on the mountain men, the other year i got to go to one his talks on the fur trade,interesting!!!! if your looking for old trade knifes do not for get secondhand stores and yard sales.i have picked up old knifes from these type of sales and some little towns. look for trade goods ingeral sometimes poeple don,t want they have or don,t care. want is out there on the old northwest co knife. make from spring of trap some wood from old gun stock and deco at the helt with lead. one ranny i said they couldn t be very good. of course someone had to proof me wrong again. he make whole knife in campfire an bacon gress.that was ten years ago. also refer as a halfbreed knife. nice sieze for allaround use. does not hold edge as the new steel ype but does ok. as a weapon a kife can be effective fast, as a back up i ref. joe meeks memo s . art i like a collect when my price.BUT we mus rember that an arts does do there work to sell. also if an artest comes from different life style and does not understand the fuction of and artical.he or she is going to draw with the knowlage from their past life. do not get me wrong miller,russl and the other work i spend hours looking at. but still you can only through the artist so far. ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 18:31:21 -0700 Looks like a arti-fake to me, but might be worth the money anyway. My 2 cents LP -----Original Message----- Since the subject of discussion seems to have switched to knives, I thought I'd get your thoughts on this old knife that I found for sale on Ebay. The descripion says the butt is dated 1845 but I'm curious as to whether this style could have been used in the RMFT. Manbear http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=432240855 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Compass Date: 10 Sep 2000 20:36:08 -0500 -----Original Message----- >What percentage of trappers do you think carried a compass? Perhaps >percentage is not the right word . . . could one say Here is what Angela Gottfried wrote when I asked the same question a while back. I think that the use of compasses was probably similiar in the American Rocky Mountain fur trade. " My impression is that in the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821, compasses were present but not common, and probably mostly used by "gentlemen", i.e. clerks, factors, and wintering partners (who were usually the explorers, e.g. David Thompson, Alexander Mackenzie, Simon Fraser, Peter Fidler). Here's some quotes: 1760, Alexander Henry the Elder: "...the snow...prevented us, at times, from discovering the land, and consequently (for compass we had none), from pursuing, with certainty, our course." (Bain ed., p. 9) 1797-1798, David Thompson, Mandan villages: "...none of the Men knew the use of the Compass, and did not like to trust it." (Thompson Narrative, 161) (Thompson was travelling with an ex-soldier and seven voyageurs.) 1805, F.-A. Larocque: "Went down to the American Fort [Fort Mandan] to get my compass put in order, the glass being broken and the needle not pointing north....Capt. Lewis fixed my compass very well, which took him a whole day." Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 20:37:55 -0500 -----Original Message----- >Looks like a arti-fake to me, but might be worth the money anyway. >My 2 cents >LP What clued you off to figuring it's a fake Larry? Just wondering... northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #622 Date: 10 Sep 2000 22:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Dennis's Knifes are the the best!!! "In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Compass Date: 10 Sep 2000 22:04:33 -0400 Noticed that the "Inventory of sundries delivered to the Northwest Company, Astoria, Columbia River, October, 1813", which contains a tremendous quantity and variety of merchandise to supply this outpost, lists only 1 "compass" and 2 "mariner's compasses". Wind1838@aol.com wrote: > What percentage of trappers do you think carried a compass? Perhaps > percentage is not the right word . . . could one say > > most > some > few > > Appreciate it. > > Laura Glise > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife On Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:17:22 -0700 On Sun, 10 September 2000, Randal J Bublitz wrote: > > I have a knife marked 1825. I bought it my first AMM National Rdvs > (Henry's Fork). I put the 1825 date on it, as this was the site of the > first Randavoos. This is my memento from the rdvs. My point is, just > because it has numerals on it, doesn't mean they were put there at that > point in time. Respectfully, hardtack > > ---------------------- Sorry to keep using Mr. Conner's name, he is not back in town yet or I would think we would have heard from him by now. Anyway he has a small collection (15-20) of early fur trade knives, most given to him as birthday gifts from Charles E. hanson, Jr. and like Dennis mentioned the blades show much use as well as the handles, granted Hanson had some that where in mint condition at the museum, but in that condition they bring big money and have documentation on them. Most of the knives mentioned don't have dates, dating is done by pin arrangement in handle and style of writing, markings, etc.on knife blade. Another brother of the AMM, Ken "Quill" Smith had a great collection of Green River and Wilson knives that he and his brother had been collecting for 25 plus years, don't know if he is still on this list, answer up "Quill". In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Compass Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:27:17 -0700 On Sun, 10 September 2000, "Roger Lahti" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > What percentage of trappers do you think carried a compass? Perhaps > > percentage is not the right word . . . could one say most some few > > Ms. Laura Jean, > > I would venture to suggest that it was very few if any. I have no evidence > one way or the other. As a practical matter, I don't see the need nor the > mention of them being used by other than serious exploratory or survey > Parties/Expeditioins. Same with many other fancy accutraments available to > the civilized and cultured gentelman of the era. > My opinion of course. I remain.... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' _________________________________________ Capt., I have seen information at museums showing the use on compasses after the L&C journey, because of the Jefferson's letters talking about locations in degrees or setting according to a compass. Maybe that made them fashionable or folks more interested in map making as he (Jefferson) was in to that type of thing. In Reading PA at Boone's family place they have one of his compasses, of course that was his livelyhood. Bridger and Medina carried compasses when doing the westward movement think, library in Loveland CO had an old picture of Medina showing his pocket watch and a compass (of course he was very late fur trade). Hope this helps, but the folks mentioned where above the average bear per say, most probably couldn't afford ball and powder, no less a compass that they didn't know how to work. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:32:15 -0700 On Sun, 10 September 2000, "harddog" wrote: > > Maybe it wasn't used that much, but it is something to look at. > And as with every thing on E-Bay.... "Caveat Emptor " > D _____________________________ Dennis, Remember the article Buck wrote about the French trade knive he wanted to buy and got talked out of it, that's an interesting article that would fit into this subject, is it on the AMM Baker site ! In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tobacco/knife in fur trade Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:40:20 -0700 On Sun, 10 September 2000, "Terrance Luff" wrote: > > concho srry so long getting back on nicotiana multivalis......... > > your info on tocco was good! were in the heck did you get thAT > info. sure would like to raid you book self. breed joke!!! > st TER/PONYRIDER from hiverant metis cart brigade > captain of tens. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Terrance, That article was written by Buck Conner's grandfather in the 1940's, met him once - he was a walking history book, him and Hanson would have made a pair with their knowledge. Saved several of Mr. Boyer's articles on Native American's as well as handling one's self in tuff situtations (he was a US Marshall, then a game warden in PA). Later. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old knife on Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 21:56:33 -0700 What clued you off to figuring it's a fake Larry? Just wondering... northwoods >> Besides the points Dennis has already made, it's just too pristine. Even a knife with a antler handle that had never been used wouldn't look that good after that length of a time. As Dennis said, just climatic changes would effect the handle a lot. Also the color of the handle is too even, and there appears to be no bug damage. Unless it was kept in a cedar chest, there would be some bug damage. It's just too slick. Anything is possible, but if it is too good to be true, it most likely is. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question - mystic symbols on guns Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:48:42 -0700 On Sat, 09 September 2000, "Pavel Grund" wrote: I have interest of mystic symbols in relation to guns. In Europe are known diverse superstition and > rituals, in America, as far as I know, mainly diferent symbols. Knows everybody how amount have diferent symbols and in what times and teritory was used.......... ___________________________________________ Pavel, Go to this URL; half way through the article on tradeguns is a picture of maker marks, proof marks, etc., this may help you understand what your looking at. http://pages.about.com/buckconner/weapons.htm Later. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question - mystic symbols on guns Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:49:11 -0700 On Sat, 09 September 2000, "Pavel Grund" wrote: I have interest of mystic symbols in relation to guns. In Europe are known diverse superstition and > rituals, in America, as far as I know, mainly diferent symbols. Knows everybody how amount have diferent symbols and in what times and teritory was used.......... ___________________________________________ Pavel, Go to this URL; half way through the article on tradeguns is a picture of maker marks, proof marks, etc., this may help you understand what your looking at. http://pages.about.com/buckconner/weapons.htm Later. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife On Ebay Date: 10 Sep 2000 20:20:04 -0700 On Sun, 10 September 2000, Concho wrote: > Sorry to keep using Mr. Conner's name,........ WHERE ELSE HAVE YOU USED MY NAME CONCHO !!!! Most of the knives mentioned don't have dates, dating is done by pin arrangement in handle and style of writing, markings, etc.on knife blade............. WELL I'LL BE DAMN, YOU GOT IT RIGHT, CHARLIE WOULD BE PROUD THAT YOU WHERE LISTENING WHEN HE EXPLAINED THIS TO US MANY YEARS AGO. > Another brother of the AMM, Ken "Quill" Smith had a great collection of Green River and Wilson knives that he and his brother had been collecting for 25 plus years, don't know if he is still on this list, answer up "Quill". NOT SURE IF HE STILL ON THE LIST, WILL CHECK WITH HIM ON MONDAY AT WORK, HE DID HAVE OR MAY STILL HAVE A GOOD COLLECTION OF THESE KNIVES. > In the footsteps of others, > > D. L. "Concho" Smith ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I JUST GOT IN FROM A GOOD FACTS FINDING TRIP TO CROSBY BROWN'S IN WASHINGTON MO, STOPPED AT THE MUSEUM AT THE ARCH IN ST. LOUIS, GOT TO GO IN THE ARCHIVES AND LOOK AT SOME NEAT L&C ITEMS, A COMPASS, WRITING EQUIPAGE, CAMP ITEMS, ETC. LOGGED ON TO SEE WHAT'S GOING ON AND ALL I SEE IS "CONCHO" THIS AND "CONCHO" THAT, YOUR DOING THE OLD WASH WOMAN ON THE FENCE THING AGAIN. DID YOU CALL THE GUY I ASKED YOU TO ON THE FUR TRADE TRUNK LOCKS ? LAST ISSUE OF MUZZLELOADER IN THE PRODUCTS AREA HAD THE "TRUNK MAN" FROM COLORADO AND A PICTURE OF HIS WARES, RECEIVED ONE LIKE THE PICTURE FROM HIM AND THEY ARE "RIGHT ON", EXCELLENT QUALITY AND VERY PLEASING TO THE EYE, CHECK HIM OUT FOLKS. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Date: 11 Sep 2000 10:05:08 EDT In a message dated 9/7/00 9:58:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ikon@mindspring.com writes: << the movie spoiler because on historical movies I usually pick up some of the details that are not correct. >> My wife does that, did you see the modern square bail of hay/straw in The Patriot? She did. YHOS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Compass Date: 11 Sep 2000 10:01:59 -0500 Although this has absolutely nothing to do with whether the mountaineers carried compasses, a compass would not have been too useful to the mountaineers, especially in Canada. The problem is that the magnetic pole is not at the north geographic pole. It is in far northern Canada, amongst those Arctic Islands. In the western part of Canada, a compass points 15 to 30 degrees east of true north, depending on how far you are to the northwest. Furthermore, the farther you go north, the more the magnetic field tilts downward. This results in two problems, 1) the needle must have a counterweight that must be adjusted as one travels north, and 2) there is less force to point north so the needle can be unreliable because the friction of the needle pivot can keep the needle from pointing to magnetic north. So as you approach the magnetic pole, a compass becomes less and less reliable. In the western US, the error of a compass is 10 to 20 degrees. Also, there are a few magnetic anomalies in the west that can throw the compass off even more. More info at: http://www.geolab.nrcan.gc.ca/geomag/e_magdec.html Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Van Vorous Subject: MtMan-List: Re: [hist_text-digest V1 #622]Compass use Date: 11 Sep 2000 09:28:22 PDT > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Compass > What percentage of trappers do you think carried a compass? Perhaps = > percentage is not the right word . . . could one say > = > most > some > few > = > Appreciate it. > = > Laura Glise No particular "historical reference", just gut feel, but given available space-weight to pack, fragility of the device and costs, it was rare. Additionally, iffen one knows where the North star is or which direction = the sun sets or rises at. One does have essentially a built in compass. Face = North and the left hands west and yer backs to the south...Keep a couple handy reference points (trees, rocks and the like) and yer off. = Course it doesnt hurt to have a good head fer dead rekkonin' either... Keep yer powder dry, D. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home= =2Enetscape.com/webmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives Date: 11 Sep 2000 13:10:36 EDT >Ho the list >The attached jpg image is of a knife that I own that has a J.Russell & Co Green River Works >logo on the blade with the date 1834 in the center of the logo. Lanny sent the above picture to all of us offlist and most should have had the chance to look at it by now. I have photographed my Russel and put it up on the web, so you can see another example. There are two pictures.....one is of the whole knife and the second is just the logo. I ran over it with a lead pencil to make it stand out enough to see. http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/russell.jpg http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/grw-logo.jpg >The knife is relatively old.....how old, I don't know. Is the knife likely to have been made in >1834? No. Apparently Russell didn't didn't sell any Green River knives until about 1836. >Furthermore, the company probably didn't use the diamond logo before about 1876. When was this knife made? I don't know. Perhaps somebody can help out. We discussed the Russell knives on the list some time back. I notice that Lanny's has the later logo, and also only has three pins instead of five holding the scales on. This also seems to be a factor used in dating the knives. Mine is in excellent condition. Some kind soul has taken a wire wheel to it and buffed all the rust off the blade. I also believe that the scales have been replaced, but am not sure. They are held on with 5 iron pins and there appears to be rust underneath them. They appear to be oak. The tang also tapers toward the butt of the knife rather than being a uniform thickness all through the spine. I bought it off an antique dealer's table at an antique flea market. I believe it to be an original that has never been used, but somehow was stored for all these years and obtained it's rust and pitting from just being stored all these years in less than desireable conditions. Most of the deep pits in the blade appear to be fingerprints which were never wiped off and subsequently rusted when in storage. Like Lanny, without actually showing the knife to an expert, I have no way of dating this knife. All the later replicas seemed to have the diamond logo on them and only 3 pins. This one has neither. By all indications, it predates the 1834 logo manufacture. It is either a treasure, or a pig in a poke. Maybe someone knows. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Williams Subject: RE: MtMan-List: leggin's (Long) Date: 11 Sep 2000 11:06:43 -0600 You've questioned the Miller paintings from a practical solution. Now how about from a written aspect. One thing that jumps out at me is the similarity in many of the Miller paintings as requard to accoutrements. The powderhorns and shooting bags, many are just copies of the other. Is this attributable to them all being the same brigade so they were outfitted from the same source? Did he have a set of props (as do most artists) tht he repainted. One thing that jumps out at me is how clean everyone is. Why don't you see the black, black, grasy black, bloody black? Why is no one shown wearing leggins? (work clothes, earlier style?) Perhaps they had winter or trapping (working) wear and summer go to rendezvous wear. Afterall most were painted (sketched) on their way to or at rendezvous. This does fly in the face of the concept that they simply wore their clothes until worn out. The traps when displayed (rarely) are almost always single spring. (prop, common brigade source?). There is rarely the presence of two bags on a trapper. Does that mean that a shooting bag doubled as a possibles bag? Was the possibles bag on the horse or pack animals? In light of the recent knife talk, where are the long knives. Most seem to be standard butchers. Miller's fringe definately gets longer in his later pictures. Just some thoughts. Rick -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Charles P Webb Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 2:23 PM I have seen and handled many of AJ Millers original paintings and sketches. I agree that he indeed did attend a rendezvous, and that his work is of value for research, but I have never felt that his work accurately depicted the clothing of all that attended the rendezvous. My humble reasoning is simple, try to assemble a tipi today as he shows them in his paintings. Count the number of poles, observe the smoke flaps and other details of lodges. If indeed he was simply exercising his artistic license in drawing and painting rendezvous lodges, is it not possible that this same artistic license could have been used in his depiction of the clothing worn by attending trappers? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEXASLAZYB@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Compass Date: 11 Sep 2000 14:15:39 EDT It is true that areas in Canada have different amounts of correction to determine north. The same thing is true not only of the United States but of the world. Some of the declination corrections are a lot and some are not. There is also a difference in the north star. A person standing at the north pole would find the north star directly overhead and worthless as a navigational aid. Every other star in the sky, however, would give all of the information they give anywhere else. The sun also has differences. The farther north you go, the farther south the sun rises and sets. That doesn't mean that it no longer tells which way is east and west. It just means that corrections must be made. One doesn't have to understand how all of that works to use a compass. It is always good for a reasonably long term reference. YMOS Blue Lodge ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Compass Date: 11 Sep 2000 13:44:52 -0700 Hallo the Camp! From my reading on the Canadian Fur trade, and the expeditions that wandered to and fro, it would appear that mostly the leaders carried or knew how to use compasses. The common man wandered without the aid of the compass, but relied on more experianced travelers, or followed the streams. Regards from North Idaho, where the declination is 19.5 Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives Date: 11 Sep 2000 16:05:26 -0700 On Mon, 11 September 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > >Ho the list > >The attached jpg image is of a knife that I own that has a J.Russell & Co > Green River Works >logo on the blade with the date 1834 in the center of the > logo. > > http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/russell.jpg > http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/grw-logo.jpg > > Apparently Russell didn't didn't sell any Green River knives until about 1836. >Furthermore, the company probably didn't use the diamond logo before about 1876........ LATER THAN 1876, CLOSER TO THE MID 1880'S. > Mine is in excellent condition. I also believe that the scales have > been replaced, but am not sure. They are held on with 5 iron pins and there > appears to be rust underneath them......... i HAVE SEVERAL ARTICLES ON THE NUMBER OF PINS (FROM 2 TO 7 PINS, OF WHICH I HAVE ALL THE PIN ARRANGEMENTS, THANKS TO CHARLES HANSON), WILL LOOK FOR THOSE ARTICLES ON THE IRON PINS, THEIR NUMBERS, DATES AND ARRANGEMENTS. > All the later replicas seemed to have the diamond logo on them and only 3 pins......... MUCH LATER THAN THE FUR TRADEOR THE CIVIL WAR, MAYBE END OF THE INDIAN WARS. LATER Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives Date: 11 Sep 2000 18:22:51 -0500 -----Original Message----- >Like Lanny, without actually showing the knife to an expert, I have no way of >dating this knife. All the later replicas seemed to have the diamond logo on >them and only 3 pins. This one has neither. By all indications, it predates >the 1834 logo manufacture. It is either a treasure, or a pig in a poke. >Maybe someone knows. >Dave Kanger I think the one you have Old Fox is an older one. In the book Firearms Traps and Tools of the M.M. Russel talks a little about the Green River knives and says the "early" knives had a logo similiar to the one on the knife you have. In the book Knives of Homespun America they show a Russel knife with the same logo and state that it was from the period 1840 to 1875. I always thought the five rivet knives were older, also the tapered tangs are the older ones to my knowledge and that is what I look for when I buy. Somewhere I read that the stamped logo knives predate the etched logos, I think Lanneys knife is etched. I have a couple dozen of each, also some large butcher knives, some Green Rivers that have Ebony handles and some that have a metal bolster between handle and blade. Many I. Wilsons also.The best Green River I had my cousin talked me out of, I sold it to him for what I paid, $5. I had bought it from an old fellar and he said it was his Grandpas, it came with a #5 newhouse bear trap which was also his grandpas, even has his name stamped in the bottom. It was what was called a "Dadley" model. It had an ebony handle. My cousin sold it to Charlie Hanson. I know that the book American Knives by Peterson tells quite a bit about the Russel company I don't have it handy its at my other house up north. A good book on the subject which is on my want list is: Merriam, The History of the John Russell Cutlery Company 1833-1936.....VG/VG........$25.00 c.1976, 8x11, 120p, hardbound with dustjacket, black/white illustrations, Bete Press, MA Content: co-authors Davis, Brown, and Buerger, subtitled: "An illustrated story of the famous Green River Knives", provides a history of the manufactory supplemented by numerous black/white photos plus a quality reprint of the 1884 John Russell Cutlery Company catalog that includes dining flatware as well as hunting knives, pocket knives and artists' pallets, black/white illustrations, makers' marks, bibliography. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: [hist_text-digest V1 #622]Compass use Date: 11 Sep 2000 20:00:51 EDT Osborne Russell stated in his journal, "I often take a star as my guide." North will always be north but how long will satellites rotate the earth? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Leggings & Horse Tack (A Question) Date: 11 Sep 2000 21:10:08 -0400 (EDT) What did (if at all) the forefathers in the Rocky Mountains use to condition, preserve these very important items? tallow? bear grease? wax of some kind? a combination of these? i don't recollect that neatsfoot oil was invented or discovered yet. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings & Horse Tack (A Question) Date: 11 Sep 2000 18:20:04 -0700 Buffalo, elk, antelope, etc...grease...applied at every meal...... hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings & Horse Tack (A Question) Date: 11 Sep 2000 18:34:23 -0700 On Mon, 11 September 2000, Jon Marinetti wrote: > > What did (if at all) the forefathers in the Rocky Mountains use to > condition, preserve these very important items? tallow? bear grease? wax > of some kind? a combination of these? i don't recollect that > neatsfoot oil was invented or discovered yet. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jon, Have read about the use of rendered buffalo tallow that the Native Americans as well as Europeans used in caring for their leather goods, cookware and greasing their pots and pans when cooking. If kept clean it will last for long periods of time from hot to cold conditions, have used it for at least 20 years with not problems - cooking grease, mocs and leggings grease, patch lube after cleaning gun, rust preventor, sealer for waterproofing the pan, etc. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives Date: 11 Sep 2000 20:59:45 -0500 Dave's knife is obviously older and very well might be 150+ years old. = The stamped, inline logo and the 5 pins are good clues. My point in the = original post was that trying to date a knife using a date stamped on = its blade is a poor method. The date could mean darn near anything or = darn near nothing. I have known that my knife is almost certainly not = older than ca1875 and is very likely to be no older than about 66 years = old. If I were to guess, it is a knife issued to commemorate the J. = Russell company's 100th year of business, 1934. No matter, I like the = knife and wouldn't sell it for what I have in it....$10. YMOS Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives Date: 11 Sep 2000 19:31:34 -0700 On Mon, 11 September 2000, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > Dave's knife is obviously older and very well might be 150+ years old. The stamped, inline logo and the 5 pins are good clues. My point in the original post was that trying to date a knife using a date stamped on its blade is a poor method. The date could mean darn near anything or darn near nothing. I have known that my knife is almost certainly not older than ca1875 and is very likely to be no older than about 66 years old. If I were to guess, it is a knife issued to commemorate the J. Russell company's 100th year of business, 1934. No matter, I like the knife and wouldn't sell it for what I have in it....$10. > YMOS > Lanney ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lanney and others involved in this conversation, see: "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook" by James A. Hanson, 1994-Fur Press, Inc. Pg 16. [The butcher knife], one of three standard nineteen century trade knives. Standard pattern of the butcher's knife and references to it by that name appear after the Revolutionary war. It has changed little; the older ones do not have a choil. In fact the blade was usually the same width as the handle............. [picture]. Pg 17. [The butcher knife], by the end of the nineteenth century was the only pattern from the fur trade days that was still in use. Two walnut scales attached with 5 iron pins. [picture]. This "Green River" dates to the Civil war. The company was not started until 1834, it did not manufacture knives until 1841. Therefore, no "Green River" knife ever went to a rendezvous. [picture]. However, by the Civil war, Russell knives were ubiquitous. Later knives bear a diamond trade mark. [picture]. [picture] The knife shown here was sold by the Hudson's bay company, (walnut scales, iron pins) in the first half of this century. Notice how the later butcher knives have wider blades, and the choil becomes more pronounced as time passes............. Pg 18. [The Rip knife], the peppercorn and diamond trade mark on Wilson knives dates back to the mid eighteenth century, but the country origin was not put on items made abroad for the U.S. market until after 1890................... Pg 19 [The Skinning knife], English makers in the 1870's (and later) began marketing all sorts of export utility knives "Green River" to capitalize on the immense success of John Russell's "Green River Works' knives after 1850........ These few pages answer most of the questions about the Russell and Wilson "Green River" style knife, this was just a sampling of Hanson's information. Still looking for the original information I wanted to share on this subject. Get this sketchbook, good reference material. Maybe after you review this sketchbook, you'll see how hard it is to date such a common tool. I'm finding this true with just a simple item like a trunk lock, all the differences, types of metals, style of putting them together, etc - the list goes on and on. An example that I found interesting was the key hole, whether it was lined with brass or copper makes a ten year difference in dating. Stll looking for more information, later. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives Date: 11 Sep 2000 19:44:15 -0700 On Mon, 11 September 2000, Buck Conner wrote: > Lanney and others involved in this conversation, > > see: "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook" by James A. Hanson, > 1994-Fur Press, Inc. > > Pg 16. [The butcher knife], one of three standard nineteen > century trade knives. Standard pattern of the butcher's > knife and references to it by that name appear after the > Revolutionary war. It has changed little; the older ones do > not have a choil. In fact the blade was usually the same > width as the handle............. [picture]. > > Pg 17. [The butcher knife], by the end of the nineteenth > century was the only pattern from the fur trade days that > was still in use. Two walnut scales attached with 5 iron > pins. [picture]. > This "Green River" dates to the Civil war. The company was > not started until 1834, it did not manufacture knives until > 1841. Therefore, no "Green River" knife ever went to a > rendezvous. [picture]. However, by the Civil war, Russell > knives were ubiquitous. Later knives bear a diamond trade > mark. [picture]. > > [picture] The knife shown here was sold by the Hudson's bay > company, (walnut scales, iron pins) in the first half of > this century. Notice how the later butcher knives have wider > blades, and the choil becomes more pronounced as time > passes............. > > Pg 18. [The Rip knife], the peppercorn and diamond trade mark on Wilson > knives dates back to the mid eighteenth century, but the > country origin was not put on items made abroad for the U.S. > market until after 1890................... > > Pg 19 [The Skinning knife], English makers in the 1870's (and later) began > marketing all sorts of export utility knives "Green River" > to capitalize on the immense success of John Russell's > "Green River Works' knives after 1850........ > > These few pages answer most of the questions about the > Russell and Wilson "Green River" style knife, this was just > a sampling of Hanson's information. > > Still looking for the original information I wanted to share > on this subject. Get this sketchbook, good reference > material. > > Maybe after you review this sketchbook, you'll see how hard it is > to date such a common tool. I'm finding this true with just a simple > item like a trunk lock, all the differences, types of metals, style of > putting them together, etc - the list goes on and on. An example > that I found interesting was the key hole, whether it was lined with brass > or copper makes a ten year difference in dating. > > Stll looking for more information, later. > > > Following our ancestors, > > Barry "Buck" Conner Your back and you beat me to the punch, just finished writing pretty much the same thing on this sketchbook on Windows 98, was getting ready to copy-paste and your message came across, well I guess thanks. Sounds like you got the information for the troops on the early fur trade trunks, good show. I'll keep looking for more information on the dating of the pins, blades, etc., remember that article you mentioned and a few done years ago in Buckskin Report. Later In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives Date: 11 Sep 2000 22:49:49 EDT > Dave's knife is obviously older and very well might be 150+ years old. The > stamped, inline logo and the 5 pins are good clues. My point in the original > post was that trying to date a knife using a date stamped on its blade is a > poor method. I don't know how the h*ll he saw it, but HardDog looked at my pictures and called me saying there was a diamond under the Russell logo. I looked at the knife again and couldn't see it so I got out the magnifying glass. Sure enough, there is a plain diamond there with nothing in it. Don't know how far up the ladder that moves the dating. I've got Hanson's book on Trade Knives too, but finding it is another story. I have forgotten which Dewey Decimal Pile it's in. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Leggings & Horse Tack (A Question) Date: 11 Sep 2000 22:00:52 -0600 Jon isn't neatsfoot oil. Joint oil. The stuff you get when you cook knees and feet? Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana On Mon, 11 September 2000, Jon Marinetti wrote: > > What did (if at all) the forefathers in the Rocky Mountains use to > condition, preserve these very important items? tallow? bear grease? wax > of some kind? a combination of these? i don't recollect that > neatsfoot oil was invented or discovered yet. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jon, ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 11 Sep 2000 23:30:37 -0500 Walt, Neatsfoot oil is a combination of various animal oils and petroleum distillates. Or at least that is what is sold today as neatsfoot oil. YMOS, Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: old knife on Ebay Date: 12 Sep 2000 07:41:41 -0500 Looks fake to me too. What tipped me off was that seller did not make statement that is really is old, just hinted at it by mentioning date on handle. And the spacer does not strike me as something that would have been done 'back then'. More likely a thicker spacer of bone or wood would have been used, if at all. And the clever twist in the guard, not practical for a real fighting knife. Thets how my stick floats. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's (Long) Date: 12 Sep 2000 07:23:33 -0600 Rick, I have a book of Millers field Sketches (pencil drawings). I wonder if like most people the subject of the drawings got dressed up in there finest? and may have borrowed gear from others?. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Rick Williams >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: leggin's (Long) >Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000, 11:06 AM > >You've questioned the Miller paintings from a practical solution. Now how >about from a written aspect. One thing that jumps out at me is the >similarity in many of the Miller paintings as requard to accoutrements. The >powderhorns and shooting bags, many are just copies of the other. Is this >attributable to them all being the same brigade so they were outfitted from >the same source? Did he have a set of props (as do most artists) tht he >repainted. One thing that jumps out at me is how clean everyone is. Why >don't you see the black, black, grasy black, bloody black? Why is no one >shown wearing leggins? (work clothes, earlier style?) Perhaps they had >winter or trapping (working) wear and summer go to rendezvous wear. >Afterall most were painted (sketched) on their way to or at rendezvous. >This does fly in the face of the concept that they simply wore their clothes >until worn out. The traps when displayed (rarely) are almost always single >spring. (prop, common brigade source?). There is rarely the presence of two >bags on a trapper. Does that mean that a shooting bag doubled as a >possibles bag? Was the possibles bag on the horse or pack animals? In >light of the recent knife talk, where are the long knives. Most seem to be >standard butchers. Miller's fringe definately gets longer in his later >pictures. Just some thoughts. > >Rick > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >[mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Charles P Webb >Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 2:23 PM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's (Long) > > >I have seen and handled many of AJ Millers original paintings and >sketches. I agree that he indeed did attend a rendezvous, and >that his work is of value for research, but I have never felt that his >work accurately depicted the clothing of all that attended the >rendezvous. My humble reasoning is simple, try to assemble >a tipi today as he shows them in his paintings. Count the number >of poles, observe the smoke flaps and other details of lodges. If >indeed he was simply exercising his artistic license in drawing and >painting rendezvous lodges, is it not possible that this same artistic >license could have been used in his depiction of the clothing worn by >attending trappers? > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: knife Date: 12 Sep 2000 07:57:41 -0700 For general interest, the below is a response to a question posed to the seller of the "old" knife on e-bay. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 5:48 PM > Hi John. > Im selling this for a friend, whom has two other knives for auction also. I > don't know much about them but in the past when Ive sold for him I've told > him that anything I put on ebay has to have his guarantee. If not > satisfied, I'd want him to give a refund of the purchase price. Im assuming > it's an antique, and made on the date stamped on the knife. Thanks > Chuck > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John C. Funk, Jr. > To: > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 10:06 AM > Subject: knife > > > > Chuck, > > Are you selling this knife as an "antique" which was made in 1845? Or, > > could this be a reproduction? > > John > > > > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Fur Era Date: 12 Sep 2000 11:56:03 EDT Just when did the fur era begin? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 12 Sep 2000 11:02:29 -0500 > > Neatsfoot oil is a combination of various animal oils and petroleum > distillates. Or at least that is what is sold today as neatsfoot oil. > > Pure Neatsfoot oil with no petroleum distillates can still be found, but ya gotta ask for it at the saddle and tack shops. I had to special order the 3 quarts I bought. And it was only available in 3 quart containers. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 12 Sep 2000 11:18:35 -0500 Compounded Neatsfoot oil is what is most commonly sold and will speed the=20 rotting of certain leathers. Pure Neatsfoot is supposed to still be the original product. It is medium= =20 difficult to find. Today's secret word to aid your search is: "findings". Refer back to Hardtack's posting for what the mountainmen really used. John... At 11:30 PM 9/11/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Walt, > >Neatsfoot oil is a combination of various animal oils and petroleum >distillates. Or at least that is what is sold today as neatsfoot oil. > >YMOS, >Harddog > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 12 Sep 2000 12:51:54 -0400 Just a note of intrest (to me) I use rendered beaver fat for my tannning.. Penetrated well, smells some, but that don't matter much. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 12 Sep 2000 13:05:37 -0400 Oh !!!!!!!! that smell was beaver !!!!!!!!!! > Just a note of intrest (to me) I use rendered beaver fat for my tannning.. > Penetrated well, smells some, but that don't matter much. > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Fur Era Date: 12 Sep 2000 10:35:54 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 8:56 AM > Just when did the fur era begin? Pretty open ended question, TrapRJoe. Some could say it had no beginning and has no end. Can you be more specific as to place, people, etc.? Capt. Lahti ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Fur Era Date: 12 Sep 2000 13:44:54 EDT Could you help a little more? My wife needs it for an oral report she has to give in one of her college classes. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Fur Era Date: 12 Sep 2000 11:03:06 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 10:44 AM > Could you help a little more? My wife needs it for an oral report she has to > give in one of her college classes. Trapper, Again, your question was a bit too open ended but if your talking about the Rocky Mountain Fur Trapper, I would guess that a good answer would be that it all started with Colter turning around and going back into the mountains with the leave of Captains Lewis and Clark on their return trip down river. Colter teamed up with a couple fellas going up stream who wanted him for a guide. Do you remember when L&C made their return trip? If your talking about fur trade/trapping in the Americas or even N. America, it gets much more sticky since the activity surely went on from not long after Europeans came to this continent. Not much of an answer I admit. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Era Date: 12 Sep 2000 18:47:03 GMT Some people descibe the "golden age" of the fur trade as beginning with the Lousiana Purchase, and ending with the last rendezvous in 1840. Of course the fur trade is still going on today, and started when the first fur was traded in man's early beginnings. However, if your wife is giving a talk over the era that this list is concerned with; the 1822-1840 time frame would cover more than she could ever talk about. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Fur Era Date: 12 Sep 2000 12:43:12 -0700 TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > Just when did the fur era begin? Greetings TrapRJoe I've read some of the replies, and I'm sure you will get more. As the good Captain stated, your question is a wee bit broad. There are records of trapping rights being granted in Europe as early as 1103 (Germany), however, if your question pertains to the Americas, a Frenchman by the name of Mr. Samual De Champlain is credited with starting a fur trading post in 1604 at Quebec, and while furs were gathered before that to sell, I believe ol Sam's post was a first. If you are looking at the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade, I would have to say it started when Colter and crew headed back up river in 1806. Regards Lee Newbill of North Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Fur Era Date: 12 Sep 2000 16:31:02 EDT For the Rocky Mtn Fur Trade era, 1806 makes a pretty good starting point, but 1840 is too often pointed out as the year of the "last rendezvous". Fur buyers/traders continued to venture west and trappers continued to rendezvous w/ them after 1840. Brown's Hole, Fort Bridger, Bent's Fort, and even Horse Creek on the Green continued to be rendezvous sites. And of course the Rocky Mountain fur trade continues to this day. So with all due respect to Hafen, Gowans and others, I maintain that 1846 makes a better year for the end of the era. In 1846 the Mexican War started and the Oregon Question was settled, and those events secured the west for the US and changed the region forever. The west was no longer a "borderland" under dispute by several powerful claimants. No longer could the Indians maintain independence by playing the sides against one another. Besides the international boundaries being settled, more people moved in, the US Army had a permanent presence, the whole land gradually became markedly less wild. So I'll stick w/ 1806 (or '03)-1846. John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Fur Era Date: 12 Sep 2000 17:16:48 EDT Thank you all for your help. To be a little more precise, She knows the Spanish were the first with trade routes, but doesn't know when they started. Also she ask me when did Albert Pike trap Oklahoma and when did Hudson Bay come through Okla. As far as when it ended you have answered that to her satisfaction. She knows in a lesser way it continues, as we trap and belong to two state trappers assn. Thanks again for your help. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 12 Sep 2000 18:24:19 -0700 OK ! I'll buy it. Coulda fooled me. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Oh !!!!!!!! that smell was beaver !!!!!!!!!! > Just a note of intrest (to me) I use rendered beaver fat for my tannning.. > Penetrated well, smells some, but that don't matter much. > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: knife Date: 12 Sep 2000 21:29:37 EDT In a message dated 9/12/00 7:58:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, J2Hearts@norcalis.net writes: << Im assuming > it's an antique, and made on the date stamped on the knife. Thanks > Chuck >> we all know what happens when you ASS U ME things........ Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: leggin,s and hoss tack Date: 12 Sep 2000 20:25:25 MDT view point: having the desire to relive the old years. at one time i and some other redered some fat off a bear.we tried on horse gear,patchs,boots, moc and any thing that looked like leather. it seemed work good on saddles and leather cinchs soften the leather nicely.boots done good job , moc a little to soft and strechy.gun patchs seem to work well. some boy,s reported patchs freeze in bad cold. on book arttical,we read said some thing about fat being hard on iron,cannot say on this, we never left our shooters sit that long. all thougt had a domesticated saddle make tell that anykind of animal fat shorted the life of leather. again the saddle is made to use, bsides i would want soft leather on my horse or rocky mountain canary.at my age walking is not my best abl. so i depend on my animals and want them to morrow. the boys and i worked on the fact that anything man made would be hard to come by in the mountain/in fact,steal is/. hiverant metis billings montana ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: fur trade times Date: 12 Sep 2000 20:52:35 MDT french half bloods claim walking to mandan's and trading for fur's and hunting furs pre 1803, from cannada posts. a point. according to some history buff the price of fur never did drop. eastern board news papers posted the money worth of goods and never showed a drop in price.also the beaver made hat held its price, i think the silk became cheeper?? the felt hat still holds the top leavel of out door wear. the computer is drawing all history people closer and we can compary notes. all so i can see some book selfs becoming obsolet.[my books] watch the sky line boy,s watch your back trial as much as the frount hiverant metis billings mt. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 13 Sep 2000 04:56:05 -0700 On Tue, 12 September 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote: > > Just a note of intrest (to me) I use rendered beaver "fat" for my tannning.. > Penetrated well, smells some, but that don't matter much. > D > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Larry would you explain to the "Kid", what comes out of the bladder is not "fat" !!! Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 13 Sep 2000 08:02:13 -0400 Larry, Would you please explain to the "Elder Statesman" (read: "old fart") that I am NOT from Penn. I am from Ohio... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 13 Sep 2000 05:06:57 -0700 On Wed, 13 September 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote: > > Larry, > Would you please explain to the "Elder Statesman" (read: "old fart") that > I am NOT from Penn. I am from Ohio... > D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That reminds me, when in Penn. we use to say "flush your toilets daily, Ohio needs the drinkin' water". How you doing "kid"! "Elder Statesman" Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 13 Sep 2000 09:01:30 -0400 Most Honorable Elder Statesman. We have the same saying here. That is why I always took my own "drinking material" to Potter County when I would shoot those scarwny excuses Penn has as deer... Playing "catch up" with the shop.. Trying to stay on top of orders and get some stock built up.. It is hard to do this time of year , as hunting season is in and the weather is cool.. My work ethic tends to go to hell from Sept- March.. Hope you are working hard.. Shouldn't you be retired at your age?? hehehehe "Kid" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 13 Sep 2000 12:22:29 -0600 Hello around this thread, Are you guys sure that neetsfoot oil did not originally stem from knee and foot joints? Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fw:museum presentation Date: 13 Sep 2000 12:24:57 -0600 Hello the list, Information posted during this weeks events at the Yellowstone Country Museum up on the rimrocks. Memorandum of goods for Mess. Gardner & Williams pr their order 1 doz razors 24 24 50 3 pt N W Blanketts- 450 25 Kettles 140 50 pipes 175 87 1/2 50 Coffee 175 87 1/2 75 Sugar 100 75 150 Powder 150 225 200 Lead 200 200 2 doz Bridles 36 72 6 doz Knives $9 54 1 doz gun Locks 8 96 1/2 doz rifles X 500 flour 100 500 20 yd Coth .5 100 20 Soap 100 20. 2 doz penknives 100 24 1 gr Blacksilk HKg 200 40 1 pr Rusha Sheeting 150 75 2 doz naped Hats 8 $192 Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: MtMan-List: off subject, sorry but important Date: 13 Sep 2000 13:54:27 -0600 Sorry, but thought you outdoors type guys might be interested SPECIAL ALERT! - Democrat Bill to Rescind Boy Scout Charter to be Debated Tonight! SPECIAL ALERT! - Democrat Bill to Rescind Boy Scout Charter to be Debated Tonight! CALL OR E-MAIL YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS Tonight the U.S. House of Representatives will debate and vote on HR 4892 which would revoke the federal charter of the Boy Scouts of America. The bill was introduced by Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-CA) and co-sponsored by Pete Stark, (D CA-13), Barbara Lee (D-CA-9), Cynthia McKinney (D-GA-4), Jerold Nadler (D-NY-8), Nydia Valazquez (D-NY-12) and John Lews (D-GA-5) HR 4892, is named for the anti-Scout lobbying group "Scouting for All" in Rep. Woolsey's district. According to the Scouting for All website, the group's goal is to force the Boy Scouts of America to change the Boy Scout standards, its Oath and Law, to give membership to "gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered youth and adults. Scouting For All is also advocating that the Boy Scouts of America end its discrimination against girls and atheists." The U.S. Supreme Court decision issued on June 28, 2000 upholding the constitutional right of the Boy Scouts of America to maintain its standards led to the introduction of HR 4892 as a means of circumventing the U.S. Constitution through the use of financial and governmental coercion. Scouting For All also is organizing local groups nationwide to keep Boy Scouts, who have spent millions of hours cleaning up and maintaining public parks over the years, from using or even being in local public parks. It is essential that ALL OF US who are committed to saving our Scouts to contact our Congressman IMMEDIATELY and tell them you are strongly in favor of the Boy Scouts. Not only should this bill be defeated, it should not be a close decision, as was the Supreme Court's 5-4 decision. It is important that it be an OVERWHELMING defeat for the anti-Boy Scout lobby. SAVE OUR SCOUTS announced early today, September 12, 2000, that Rep. Dana Rohrbacher (R-CA), who is co-chairman of the House Boy Scout Caucus, Rep. Chris Cannon (R-UT), and Rep. J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ) are new members of its National Advisory Committee. They are confident that they, and other pro-Scout members of congress can defeat HR 4892. It is being brought to the floor with the hope that it can be defeated overwhelmingly. To read a copy of the bill that will be discussed tonight go to: http://www.savourscouts.com/hr4892.html To e-mail your member of Congress find their e-mail address at: http://www.originalsources.com/PLobby/ContactCongress.html To contact your member of Congress by telephone the House of Representatives switchboard is 202-224-3121. Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: off subject, sorry but important Date: 13 Sep 2000 14:28:04 -0600 Ho the list, Just read on the "Scouting for all" website that this bill was DEFEATED by a 362 to 12 margin. I thought this one was too stupid to pass, but these days, you never know. Lou > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Brandl [SMTP:jbrandl@wyoming.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 1:54 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: off subject, sorry but important > > Sorry, but thought you outdoors type guys might be interested > > SPECIAL ALERT! - Democrat Bill to Rescind Boy > Scout Charter to be Debated Tonight! > > > SPECIAL ALERT! - Democrat Bill to Rescind Boy > Scout Charter to be Debated Tonight! > > CALL OR E-MAIL YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS > > Tonight the U.S. House of Representatives will > debate and vote on HR 4892 which would > revoke the federal charter of the Boy Scouts of > America. The bill was introduced by Rep. > Lynn Woolsey (D-CA) and co-sponsored by Pete > Stark, (D CA-13), Barbara Lee > (D-CA-9), Cynthia McKinney (D-GA-4), Jerold > Nadler (D-NY-8), Nydia Valazquez > (D-NY-12) and John Lews (D-GA-5) > > HR 4892, is named for the anti-Scout lobbying > group "Scouting for All" in Rep. Woolsey's > district. According to the Scouting for All > website, the group's goal is to force the Boy Scouts > of America to change the Boy Scout standards, > its Oath and Law, to give membership to > "gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered youth > and adults. Scouting For All is also advocating > that the Boy Scouts of America end its > discrimination against girls and atheists." > > The U.S. Supreme Court decision issued on June > 28, 2000 upholding the constitutional right > of the Boy Scouts of America to maintain its > standards led to the introduction of HR 4892 as > a means of circumventing the U.S. Constitution > through the use of financial and governmental > coercion. Scouting For All also is organizing > local groups nationwide to keep Boy Scouts, > who have spent millions of hours cleaning up and > maintaining public parks over the years, from > using or even being in local public parks. > > It is essential that ALL OF US who are committed > to saving our Scouts to contact our > Congressman IMMEDIATELY and tell them you are > strongly in favor of the Boy Scouts. Not > only should this bill be defeated, it should not > be a close decision, as was the Supreme Court's > 5-4 decision. It is important that it be an > OVERWHELMING defeat for the anti-Boy Scout > lobby. > > SAVE OUR SCOUTS announced early today, September > 12, 2000, that Rep. Dana > Rohrbacher (R-CA), who is co-chairman of the > House Boy Scout Caucus, Rep. Chris > Cannon (R-UT), and Rep. J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ) are > new members of its National Advisory > Committee. They are confident that they, and > other pro-Scout members of congress can > defeat HR 4892. It is being brought to the floor > with the hope that it can be defeated > overwhelmingly. > > To read a copy of the bill that will be > discussed tonight go to: > http://www.savourscouts.com/hr4892.html > > To e-mail your member of Congress find their > e-mail address at: > > http://www.originalsources.com/PLobby/ContactCongress.html > > To contact your member of Congress by telephone > the House of Representatives switchboard > is 202-224-3121. > Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com > Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture > 307-455-2440 > New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw:museum presentation Date: 13 Sep 2000 18:59:18 -0600 Walt, Thanks for the list of goods you gave us. Can you give some info to go with it? When was the inventory made? For what reason was the goods gathered? Who were the items traded to? (I suppect them to be trade goods.) And where was the list found orginally? thanks- mike. Walt Foster wrote: > Hello the list, > > Information posted during this weeks events at the Yellowstone Country > Museum up on the rimrocks. > > Memorandum of goods for Mess. Gardner & Williams pr their order > 1 doz razors 24 24 > 50 3 pt N W Blanketts- 450 > 25 Kettles 140 > 50 pipes 175 87 1/2 > 50 Coffee 175 87 1/2 > 75 Sugar 100 75 > 150 Powder 150 225 > 200 Lead 200 200 > 2 doz Bridles 36 72 > 6 doz Knives $9 54 > 1 doz gun Locks 8 96 > 1/2 doz rifles > X 500 flour 100 500 > 20 yd Coth .5 100 > 20 Soap 100 20. > 2 doz penknives 100 24 > 1 gr Blacksilk HKg 200 40 > 1 pr Rusha Sheeting 150 75 > 2 doz naped Hats 8 $192 > > Walt > ORMC 1836-1837 > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Lockmiller Subject: MtMan-List: 1920 Book - Northwest - Fur Trade - 1st Edit - Skinner Date: 13 Sep 2000 20:16:55 -0400 --------------DFB2177166FC1D986E945F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ho the list, I just saw the above item on Ebay and don't have the cash to bid right now so I thought I'd let you all know about it. Manbear http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=432043046 --------------DFB2177166FC1D986E945F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ho the list,
I just saw the above item on Ebay and don't have the cash to bid right now so I thought I'd let you  all know about it.
Manbear

 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=432043046 --------------DFB2177166FC1D986E945F40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Lockmiller Subject: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935 Date: 13 Sep 2000 20:21:15 -0400 --------------E5735F60A9224D9109627F90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is another set of old fur trade books that I found on Ebay. Manbear http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=431437403 --------------E5735F60A9224D9109627F90 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is another set of old fur trade books that I found on Ebay.
Manbear

 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=431437403 --------------E5735F60A9224D9109627F90-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 13 Sep 2000 21:00:58 -0700 Buck, I've tried. You know how that "Kid" is. I can't do anything with him. Pendleton -----Original Message----- On Tue, 12 September 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote: > > Just a note of intrest (to me) I use rendered beaver "fat" for my tannning.. > Penetrated well, smells some, but that don't matter much. > D > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Larry would you explain to the "Kid", what comes out of the bladder is not "fat" !!! Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 13 Sep 2000 21:03:18 -0700 Dennis, Therein lies the problem. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Larry, Would you please explain to the "Elder Statesman" (read: "old fart") that I am NOT from Penn. I am from Ohio... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 13 Sep 2000 18:57:44 -0700 On Wed, 13 September 2000, "larry pendleton" wrote: > Buck, > I've tried. You know how that "Kid" is. I can't do anything with him. > Pendleton > ----- Larry, to top it off he brings the stuff back to the original flushing ground, can't you teach him what you bring in you pack out ! Later In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935 Date: 13 Sep 2000 19:10:44 -0700 On Wed, 13 September 2000, James Lockmiller wrote: > > > > Here is another set of old fur trade books that I found on Ebay. >
Manbear http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=431437403 ANYONE INTERESTED IN THIS SET SHOULDN'T SPEND OVER $45-$50 AS THE DUST COVERS ARE POOR, A SET IN GOOD CONDITION WILL BRING $10 MORE/ AROUND $65. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1920 Book - Northwest - Fur Trade - 1st Edit - Date: 13 Sep 2000 19:14:08 -0700 On Wed, 13 September 2000, James Lockmiller wrote: > > > > Ho the list, >
I just saw the above item on Ebay and don't have the cash to bid right > now so I thought I'd let you  all know about it. >
Manbear http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=432043046 DON'T GO OVER $38-$40, JUST GOT SAME BOOK IN EXCELLENT SHAPE AT ANTIQUE BOOK SALE FOR $45, AND I MAY HAVE GONE $5 TO MUCH. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hsteven-pepke@webtv.net (H Steven Pepke) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1920 Book - Northwest - Fur Trade - 1st Edit - Date: 13 Sep 2000 19:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Thanks Buck. True Bear Issaquah, WA ------------------------------ "Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est." Seneca ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935 Date: 13 Sep 2000 21:21:23 -0500 The Chittenden set is available in paperback for about $25. The set is = full of good stuff. Gen. Chittenden was in the Corps of Engineers and = laid out the roads in Yellowstone Park. =20 ....that and $6 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 13 Sep 2000 22:25:24 EDT Thank you for the $6 buck advice, but a tall, dark, sexy mountaineer taught me how to roast green coffee beans in a frying pan, pound them with my hatchet, heat them to perfection in my tin coffee pot. I think it happened somewhere in my dreams. Starbucks can kiss my ass. I'll save my money. LJ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 13 Sep 2000 22:25:52 EDT Goodnight. Laura Jean ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 13 Sep 2000 22:28:42 -0400 LJ Wrote: Starbucks can kiss my ass \ An' tha's why we love ya, Lass.... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Re - Neatsfoot oil Date: 13 Sep 2000 22:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Walt, I think you're correct. checked Webster's Unabridged & Random House dictionaries and that's what was exactly stated there. always was under the impression that PURE (100%) neatsfoot oil was made exclusively from rendered sheep fat (don't remember how that info got stuck in my brain cells). wonder if neatsfoot oil was more especially developed and advanced by the western sheepherders in the years after the fur trade era ended ~1840-1843? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 13 Sep 2000 23:15:05 EDT In a message dated 9/13/00 7:26:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Wind1838@aol.com writes: << Starbucks can kiss my ass. I'll save my money. ... in Macy's window during the Thanksgiving Parade hopefully! Barn p.s Goodnight Laura Jean. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neatsfoot Oil Date: 13 Sep 2000 22:56:40 -0700 Nope ! Can't do a thing with him. Lord knows I've tried ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- On Wed, 13 September 2000, "larry pendleton" wrote: > Buck, > I've tried. You know how that "Kid" is. I can't do anything with him. > Pendleton > ----- Larry, to top it off he brings the stuff back to the original flushing ground, can't you teach him what you bring in you pack out ! Later In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: MtMan-List: King's Mountain Old Timer Days and Rondy Date: 14 Sep 2000 00:34:29 -0400 Anybody going to the rondy at King's Mountain State Park in South Carolina this weekend? I will be there with The "K" Company. Possum Are the Indigo Girls the ladies who put the "point" marks on Hudson's Bay blankets? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Mike Moore Date: 13 Sep 2000 22:34:51 -0600 Mike, here ya go. Accounts from Wm. Ashleys notebook From William H. Ashley Papers, Missouri Historical Society, St Louis, MO. Inventory of Goods available at the 1825 Rendezvous on Henry's Fork of the Green River (cached goods listed in Ashley's diary). First cache 2 bags coffee 1 hams goods 3 pack powder 1 1s qt 2 Tobacco 3 B. Lead horse shoes Beads large & small 2 packs sugar 1 pack cloth with some knives therein 7 doz Knives Second cache 2.5 kegs Tobacco 150 lbs. 14 doz Knives 2 peaces scarlett Cloth 2 ditto Blue Stroud 3 Bags coffee 200 lbs. Bale & Bag Sugar 130 lbs. 3 packs beaver 50 skins pack beads, assorted & vermillion assortment of Indian trinkett, mockerson alls do. 2 Bags gun powder 150 lbs. 3 Bars lead 120 lbs. Bag flints 1000 Bag salt 10 lbs. pack cloths - pack containg a variety of Indian trinketts - Ribbons Binding &c axes hoes &c Ashley's Accounts from Rendezvous, July 1825, from his notebook Mr Logan & Co. 18 Coffee 27 3 Sugar 4.50 12 Knives 30.00 2 1/2 Tobacco doz ring pr Bill 2 3 Powder 4 3 Lead 3 T Vergel & Isac Gilbredth 4 Coffee 6 3 Sugar 4.50 3 Knives 7.50 doz hooks 2 doz flints 1 1 1/2 yds Scarlett 12 - 3 Powder 6.0 39.00 ---------- Mr Greenwood 1 1/2 Coffee 2.25 1 1/2 Sugar 2.25 202 Beaver 3 606.00 Pistol- 45.00 Mr E. Provo C 3 yds Scarlet- 8.24 2 yds 1/2 Blue Cloth 6.15 Self 10 yds Ribbon .50 5 9 Sugar 13.50 7 Coffee 10.50 1 Yd Blue cloth 6 1 doz Rings 2 3 lb Sugar 4.50 3 Coffee 4.50 2 yd Ribband 1 ------------- LaBontee 1/2 yd Scarlett 4 1 doz Rings 2 2 Sugar 6 2 Coffee 2 ------------- Adams Tobacco 1/2 yd Scarlett 3 2 Sugar 3 2 Coffee 3 1 doz Rings 2 ------------- Pino fish hooks .50 ------ 111.50 Recd 83 Beaver at 2.50 207.50 Mr Provo Brot over 111.50 3 Beads p. self 9 5 Tobacco 2 10 1 1/2 Beads pr Labonty 4.50 2 Sugar & 2 Coffee 6 pr. W. 2 yds Blue Cloth 12 $153.00 ------------ Mr White 153 Beaver 250 Logan & cunningham 4 Blanketts flannel Powder-Lead Knives Spirits coffee Sugar-pepper ------- Bell & able 4 Blanketts Tobacco Cloth-flannels Powder Lead Knives flints Coffee Pierre Seutchineele Silk Sewing small beads white very small needles allum fine Cloth Ribband assorted- Pencils lead Pen Knife- Gallon Rum- flour-30 pound Sugar & Coffee files for traps gimblet Vices Small red green & Blue beads Flour sugar & Coffee Small kettles Earrings large chissels 2 doz Blanketts - - - - $ 9.00 Powder - - - - - 1.50 Lead - - - - - 1 - Sugar - - - - - 1 - Coffee - - - - - 2 - Tobacco - - - - 1.50 Knives 75 alls- gun Locks first quality flints c 5 100 Rifles - Blue Coth $5 yd Scarlett 6 Slay bells flour - 1 lb Pepper 1.75 Kettles assorted - Bridles vermilion Spurs guns S flanel red green yellow Rusha sheeting Soap worsted webbing combs assorted - small thin bar Iron Trap springs- double bit Bridle per Mr Gray 3 doz Serscingles- Saddle for Mr Gray hats-Gardner & Gray... Black silk HKs Tomhawks axes-Chissels-3/8 Inches Thick pipes-2 1/2 wide sockett- J Gardner Dr. x 28 Tobacco 84 x 35 Coffee 70 x 9 Sugar 18 x 6 fire steels 172 x 3 doz Knives 75 156 x 3 gross Buttons 24 328 x 3 doz fish hooks 1.50 4.50 24 x 5 doz alls 5.00 342 x 9 doz Rings 1 9 x 2 peaces Binding 6 x 3 peaces Ribband 9 x 7 pr Scissors 2.00 14 x 2 doz combs 3 x 1 1/2 gr. Thread 3.00 4.50 x 7 doz flints 3.50 x 7 1/2 yds Scarlett $6 45 x 5 1/8 do do 30.70 x 6 yd Stroud -5 30 x 32 Powder- x 43 Coffee [On facing page:] Mr Prudum Dr 36 Beaver- 108 80.25 propotin Sugar & due 28.75 Coffee 7 75 7.25 21.50 4 Knives 6 4 Beads 5 20 doz rings 2 6 yds Ribbon 3 2 doz alls 2 4 1/2 doz hooks 1 2 doz Buttons 2 2 " Large 3 2 yd coth 6 12 2 Scarlett 8 68.75 12.50 80.25 Mr Lolo 41 Beaver- 2 Knives 4 50 52 75 5 Beads 25 12 50 Sugar & Coffee 7 75 66 25 1/2 doz alls 1 doz hooks- 2 41 3 Combs 1 50 3 2 doz Buttons 3 - 123 3 doz Small do 2 fire steel 1 doz flint 1 50 1 1/2 yds cloth 4 50 Mr Carson 51 Beaver- 3 otter- 2.50 propotion of 18 Coff 7.75 do sugar- 61 3 Knives 4 50 3 Beads-5 15 - - doz rings 1 50 1 1/2 yd Cloth 9 the doz Buttons 2 50 53 75 ---------- Mr Montour 45 Beaver 135 1 otter 2.50 2 50 137 50 Sugar & coffee 7 75 8 75 3 Knives 7 50 ----- 5 Beads $5 25 128 75 1 doz rings 2 10 yd Ribband 5 2 doz alls 4 1/2 doz hooks 1 2 doz Buttons 3 2 yd Cloth 12 4 Scarlett 8 Sanicce Lardemarke 49 1/2 Beaver- 46 do - otter --- --- 2. 50 Sugar & Coffee 4 Beads 5 20 Sugar & Coffee 3 4 Knives 150 6 powder & lead 7 - flints 1 - --------------- John B. Lou alessa 87 lb Beaver - Sugar & Coffee 12 3 1/2 Beads 5 17 50 Sugar & Coffee 3 4 Knives 6 Brech cloth 2 50 Powder & Lead 7 Pierre 100 Beaver - - Sugar & Coffee 3 Beads-5 15 00 8 Knives - 12 1 Coffee & Sugar 6 4 Lead- 4 2 powder & Lead 14 flints 2 Bag 2 --------- Mt Anance 17 Beaver - Sugar & Coffee 7 75 3 Knives - 4 50 2 1/2 Beads 0.50 12 1/2 doz rings 2 1/2 doz alls 1 Sugar & coffee Powder Lead 12 50 Tobacco 7 25 46 75 Mr Godan 46 Beaver - 138 Due $86 50 Sugar & Coffee 7 75 2 Knives 3 2 Beads - 10 doz rings 2 - 1/2 doz all 1 - yd coth 6 doz flints 1 Tobacco 7 25 Powder & Lead 12 50 50 50 fire steel - 1 ---- 53 50 J. B. Finly 13 Beaver 49 2 Knives Sugar & Coffee - 7 50 2 1/2 Beads 5 17 50 1 doz rings 2 - 2 yds Ribbon 1 Comb 50 Buttons - 1 Scarlett 1 powder & Lead 12 50 43 00 Mr. Monteau 67 75 am Brot over fire steel 1 Pistol 20 88 75 7 50 96 25 12 50 108 75 137 50 due - 28 75 Tobacco - 7 50 Pistol 20 28 50 52 75 Mr Lolo Coth 5 7 Beaver $21 - Tobacco 7 25 Powder Lead 12 50 77 50 Mr Monteaus Bill Chochenelle Blue Cloth 2 Worsted assorted Coper - Kettle-2 gallons 4 Beads - Gardner &c Dr- 6 Beads 18 Bag 62 Lead 62 pads marto 90 Cr. 44 Beaver 43 do 42 do 49 do 39 do 15 do $12 deduct --- 232 Isaac Gilbreth cr By 189 lb Beaver pr Smith & Co. $567 $ 3 ------- Thomas Vergil c by 107 1/2-$3 321 75 ------- Wm Bell c by 50 Beaver-$3 150 ------- Robt Nutt 156 lb $ 2 212 ------- Stephen Terry By 113. lb Beaver $2 226 ------- Thomas Eddy... By 56 Beaver $ 2.00 112 ------- E. Able 4 1/4 Beaver $ 3.00 12 75 ------- Jedediah Smith Cr B. 57 - 58 - 58 - 56 - 59 -344 By 57 - 61 - - 57 . 59 . 54 288 632 [Entire page struck out] Jedediah Smith Brot up 632 110 742 58 lbs 52 110 --------- G. Jackson 8 Beaver $ 3.00 J. Smith 19 - 57 189 742 69 107 83 53 50 ---- 55 156 1567 166 668 52 113 1800 52 516 120 54 4 140 Fitzpatrick 33 --- 3100 57 675 461 56 592 166 54 --- 668 592 83 675 83 132 --- ---- 675 8829 [on facing pages] Jedediah Smith D. Cr. 1 By 668 Beaver $ 275 --------------- James Clyman Dr. By 45 Beaver 26 54 30 155 lbs 11 11 166 lbs. [on facing pages] William Sublett... Cr. By 50 Beaver @ 2 50 125 - " 116 do- 2 50 290 - " Smith asst - --------- A Goodridge By 43 Beaver [On facing pages] Ham D By 461 Beaver --------------- Memorandum of goods for Mess. Gardner & Williams pr their order 1 doz razors 24 24 50 3 pt N W Blanketts- 450 25 Kettles 140 50 pipes 175 87 1/2 50 Coffee 175 87 1/2 75 Sugar 100 75 150 Powder 150 225 200 Lead 200 200 2 doz Bridles 36 72 6 doz Knives $9 54 1 doz gun Locks 8 96 1/2 doz rifles X 500 flour 100 500 20 yd Coth .5 100 20 Soap 100 20. 2 doz penknives 100 24 1 gr Blacksilk HKg 200 40 1 pr Rusha Sheeting 150 75 2 doz naped Hats 8 $192 Amt Botup 12 Bolts ribbon 3 36 1 pr. Green Flanel 150 60 1 do Red do 150 60 1 do Yellow 150 60 2 doz pans $18 36 2 doz tin cups 9 18 20 fusilS 20 400 00 12 pr W shoes 3 36 6 do men 4 24 10 Gallons rum $10 100 x 1 doz pomatum 100pr yd 6 2 doz files asst. 125 30 25 Beads ass'. $3 75 1/2 y Scarlet yd. 600 120 12 doz flints 50 120 2 Verdegrease 300 6 8 Vermillion 3 24 1/2 doz shalls- 36 6 doz Looking glasses 6 200 lbs Tobacco 125 250 12 chissels amt Brot over 2 doz Sersingles $21 42 Pack No. 1 Skins 31 lbs 53 2 29 52 3 36 51 4 29 50 5 33 57 6 30 52 7 31 51 8 29 50 9 36 57 10 38 50 11 31 51 12 28 50 13 32 57 14 31 57 15 31 57 16 36 50 17 32 54 18 33 50 19 28 50 20 18 25 21 55 22 20 23 50 24 31 50 25 35 50 90 150 3 ---- 270 9000 450 ---- 16000 31500 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: leggin,s and hoss tack Date: 14 Sep 2000 10:45:43 -0600 Ponyrider, Good points about the animal fat used on general purpose mountain man equipment. Joint oil from the knees and feet is a far more practical oil for ML purposes. That is shooting the ML with this oil on the patch. Period correct. On the northern plains and in the mountains. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan Sudman" Subject: MtMan-List: Transportation for mountain men Date: 14 Sep 2000 20:08:47 GMT What were the most common types of transportation for mountain men? What were the advantages and disadvantages of each? Thanks, Ethan Sudman (ethan_sudman@springmail.com) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Transportation for mountain men Date: 14 Sep 2000 16:45:35 EDT The mountain men used: mules (strength, endurance, speed) Robert Campbell would never use anything else even after he was a wealthy St. Louisian. riverboat (speed, ability to carry large loads; limited to selected rivers and time of year) subject to inspection bull-boats made from buffalo hides, hard to control, but okay for some river travel canoes/dugouts dugouts are easily made, fairly comfortable, hard to portage; canoes are more delicate, still comfortable and hard to portage; each allow carrying goods more easily horses speed, comfort (sometimes); can eat them if needed mules are tougher. Hope this helps. Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: MtMan-List: Symposium 2000 Date: 14 Sep 2000 18:13:23 -0600 Just wondering who's planning on attending the Fur Trade Symposium at Fort Union next week. Rick Williams and I are heading out on Wedensday with plans to drop by Chadron on the way. I hope to meet some of you folks just like last time in Pinedale. Let's hear from you. "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Symposium 2000 Date: 15 Sep 2000 00:28:21 GMT Todd, I will be arriving in Williston on the night of the 19th, or early on the 20th. I will be traveling with Bob Schmidt, and meeting a few other brothers there. Hope to see you. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Symposium 2000 Date: 14 Sep 2000 23:12:43 EDT tetontodd@juno.com writes: > Just wondering who's planning on attending the Fur Trade Symposium at > Fort Union next week.>> If all goes well I'll be there starting Wed. night. Look forward to meeting you. Ghosting Wolf aka Gene Hickman ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Transportation for mountain men Date: 14 Sep 2000 21:27:08 -0700 ETHAN, Steve gave you a very good transportation list. I beg to differ in only one respect. I disagree that canoes were difficult to portage. The canoes of the Eastern tribes were covered with bark, which made them fragile but it also made them light. One man could carry a Northern canoe and two or three could manage a huge Montreal canoe. They might be difficult to maneuver but I'm sure they weighed less than the packs the rest of the brigade was carrying. Respectfully, Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 1:45 PM > The mountain men used: > > mules (strength, endurance, speed) Robert Campbell would never use anything > else even after he was a wealthy St. Louisian. > > riverboat (speed, ability to carry large loads; limited to selected rivers > and time of year) subject to inspection > > bull-boats made from buffalo hides, hard to control, but okay for some > river travel > > canoes/dugouts dugouts are easily made, fairly comfortable, hard to portage; > canoes are more delicate, still comfortable and hard to portage; each allow > carrying goods more easily > > horses speed, comfort (sometimes); can eat them if needed mules are > tougher. > > Hope this helps. > > Steve > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Transportation for mountain men Date: 14 Sep 2000 21:41:10 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 9:27 PM > ETHAN, > Steve gave you a very good transportation list Larry added a couple good points to consider but I wonder how much Birch Bark Canoes were used up and down the rivers on what would become the American side of the boarder. Not that they weren't used but even David Thompson (British) had to build plank boats (bateau's) to continue down the Columbia because of a lack of suitable birch that far west. I believe that along with the boats mentioned, there were far more plank built boats in the form of the classic bateau in various sizes used compared to the number of dugouts, bull boats, etc. There are shipping records that show pitch pine and oakum being sent to the Rendezvous and trading posts and the primary use of those two items is in the sealing of the seams of a plank built boat. I remain... Respectfully YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry sherman" Subject: MtMan-List: huntin pal Date: 15 Sep 2000 07:30:23 GMT Names Larry Sherman, live in Sedro-Woolley, Washington. I would like to git in touch with some mountain folk from Washington, do some huntin an some jaw'n, learn somethin new. Please contact. e-mail: ljs97@hotmail.com phone: 360-856-4605 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry sherman" Subject: MtMan-List: strang pain killer Date: 15 Sep 2000 08:52:26 GMT An old scottsman one told me if I had a split lip or nuckle pain to rub a slug on it. It seems the slime acts like a sort of novacain. I never tried it, but wonder if it's true. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: strang pain killer Date: 15 Sep 2000 07:36:59 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 1:52 AM > An old scottsman one told me if I had a split lip or nuckle pain to rub a > slug on it. It seems the slime acts like a sort of novacain. I never tried > it, but wonder if it's true. Larry, Don't know if it's true or not but I would imagine you will find out fast enough if you slip and fall on any sidewalk in your neigborhood. Can't help but put your face into a herd of slugs on your side of the mountains. From "almost but not quite completely slug free" dry Eastern WA. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Symposium 2000 Date: 15 Sep 2000 09:21:38 -0600 I am going and looking for a great time joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" Subject: MtMan-List: Stuff For Sale Date: 15 Sep 2000 13:11:56 -0700 I have several item for sale, that if you would like information on please contact me off list. 1 Two Cotton Long Sleeved Shirts suitable for Rendezvous, Friendship, Buckskinning etc. or? Both Size 46 One is Blue, & One Red New Condition, will sell both. 2. Throwing Knife & Hawk made by The Famous Beaver Bills Forge Works- In Ohio. Both Weight Approx. 14-1/2 ounces each, and comply with Weight, Size, Size of Blade Proportion Legal for NMLRA Competition (NMLRA Competition Legal). Like New Condition. Also included are two Extra Hawk Handles. Will Not Break Apart, Only Sold as SET... 3. 60 Extra 3/4=94 English Gun Flints Fits Large Siler, L & R Classic, Type Locks. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: For those Near Libby Montana.... Date: 15 Sep 2000 13:50:03 -0700 Friends; What sounds like a really neat symposium is coming up next weekend, I'd be going, but I have duties as a Best Man in a friend's wedding that weekend.... ARGGHHH! One of their guest speakers is Jack Nisbett, Author of Sources of the River =93Tracking David Thompson across Western North America=94 Anyhow... here's the info..... Windows on the Past Explorers, Trappers, and Traders of the Kootenai and Clark Fork Rivers Symposium Sponsored by the Kootenai National Forest & Seattle District, Corps of Engineers September 22-24th, 2000 Point of Contact: Becky Timmons, 406-293-6211, email: btimmons@fs.fed.us ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stuff For Sale Date: 15 Sep 2000 19:51:12 -0600 Ok, Bruce, I'll bite again- what are you asking for the flints and what kind (and color) are they? mike. "Bruce S. de Lis" wrote: > I have several item for sale, that if you would like information on > please contact me off list. > > 1 Two Cotton Long Sleeved Shirts suitable for Rendezvous, Friendship, > Buckskinning etc. or? Both Size 46 One is Blue, & One Red New > Condition, will sell both. > > 2. Throwing Knife & Hawk made by The Famous Beaver Bills Forge Works- > In Ohio. Both Weight Approx. 14-1/2 ounces each, and comply with > Weight, Size, Size of Blade Proportion Legal for NMLRA Competition > (NMLRA Competition Legal). Like New Condition. Also included are two > Extra Hawk Handles. Will Not Break Apart, Only Sold as SET... > > 3. 60 Extra 3/4=94 English Gun Flints Fits Large Siler, L & R Classic= , > Type Locks. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stuff For Sale Date: 15 Sep 2000 18:17:23 -0700 60 Extra 3/4=94 English Gun Flints Fits Large Siler, L & R Classic, Type Locks. $45.00 Deliver Color is Dark Bluish Grey Mike Moore wrote: > Ok, Bruce, > I'll bite again- what are you asking for the flints > and what kind (and color) are they? > mike. > > "Bruce S. de Lis" wrote: > > > I have several item for sale, that if you would like information on > > please contact me off list. > > > > 1 Two Cotton Long Sleeved Shirts suitable for Rendezvous, Friendshi= p, > > Buckskinning etc. or? Both Size 46 One is Blue, & One Red New > > Condition, will sell both. > > > > 2. Throwing Knife & Hawk made by The Famous Beaver Bills Forge Works= - > > In Ohio. Both Weight Approx. 14-1/2 ounces each, and comply with > > Weight, Size, Size of Blade Proportion Legal for NMLRA Competition > > (NMLRA Competition Legal). Like New Condition. Also included are tw= o > > Extra Hawk Handles. Will Not Break Apart, Only Sold as SET... > > > > 3. 60 Extra 3/4=94 English Gun Flints Fits Large Siler, L & R Class= ic, > > Type Locks. > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.ht= ml > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: strang pain killer Date: 16 Sep 2000 00:35:30 EDT Any old scottsman (or any other coon) who could stomach slug slime on the lips probly wouldn't be bothered by a spit lip or knuckle! :) -HikingOnThru ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry sherman" Subject: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 16 Sep 2000 08:32:02 GMT I have read several articals on what type of wood is good for bows, but none of the woods are common or even present in Washington state. I would like to know what types of wood common to Washington are good for biulding bows. Larry _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stuff For Sale Date: 16 Sep 2000 06:27:35 -0700 On Fri, 15 September 2000, "Bruce S. de Lis" wrote: > > I have several item for sale, that if you would like information on > please contact me off list. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bruce, Why not list your wares on the trade lists the rest of us use, they are free and you'll have a better chance of moving your goods. http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb106703 http://www.klesinger.com/forums/Trade_Blanket/ http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/trader.htm http://www.tradersblanket.com/ http://www.auctionarms.com/PostItem/AuctionItem.cfm At times have used all of these with very good success and fast results for clearing the shelves, plus you'll get more people with an interest in what you have and not tie up this hist_list. Good Luck. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935 Date: 16 Sep 2000 06:33:11 -0700 On Wed, 13 September 2000, Buck Conner wrote: > > On Wed, 13 September 2000, James Lockmiller wrote: > > > > > > > > > Here is another set of old fur trade books that I found on Ebay. > >
Manbear > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=431437403 > > ANYONE INTERESTED IN THIS SET SHOULDN'T SPEND OVER $45-$50 AS THE DUST COVERS ARE POOR, A SET IN GOOD CONDITION WILL BRING $10 MORE/ AROUND $65. > > > Following our ancestors, > > Barry "Buck" Conner Just picked up this set at a used book store for $62.00 in good condition, 1st edition. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stuff For Sale Date: 16 Sep 2000 06:39:24 -0700 On Sat, 16 September 2000, Buck Conner wrote: > > On Fri, 15 September 2000, "Bruce S. de Lis" wrote: > > > > > I have several item for sale, that if you would like information on > > please contact me off list. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Bruce, > > Why not list your wares on the trade lists the rest of us use, they are free and you'll have a better chance of moving your goods. > > http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb106703 > > http://www.klesinger.com/forums/Trade_Blanket/ > > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/trader.htm > > http://www.tradersblanket.com/ > > http://www.auctionarms.com/PostItem/AuctionItem.cfm > > At times have used all of these with very good success and fast results for clearing the shelves, plus you'll get more people with an interest in what you have and not tie up this hist_list. > > Good Luck. > > > Following our ancestors, > > Barry "Buck" Conner Good point, you listed a few I have not tried before, thanks. Hear your headin' out again according to the little gal that covers for you while your on the road - she said the islands south of Florida ? She mentioned something about looking at items from a sailing ship wreck, now what are you doing ! In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stuff For Sale [off topic] Date: 16 Sep 2000 09:08:20 -0700 > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Bruce, > > > > Why not list your wares on the trade lists the rest of us use, they are free and you'll have a better chance of moving your goods. > > > > http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb106703 > > > > http://www.klesinger.com/forums/Trade_Blanket/ > > > > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/trader.htm > > > > http://www.tradersblanket.com/ > > > > http://www.auctionarms.com/PostItem/AuctionItem.cfm > > > > At times have used all of these with very good success and fast results for clearing the shelves, plus you'll get more people with an interest in what you have and not tie up this hist_list. > > > > Good Luck. > > > > > > Following our ancestors, > > > > Barry "Buck" Conner > ------------------------------------ > > Good point, you listed a few I have not tried before, thanks. > > Hear your headin' out again according to the little gal that covers for you while your on the road - she said the islands south of Florida ? She mentioned something about looking at items from a sailing ship wreck, now what are you doing ! > > > In the footsteps of others, > > D. L. "Concho" Smith ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ These lists really get attention, and they work; have listed items on Friday afternoon and am sold out by noon on Sunday. That's if it's not main events going on that has pulled many away from the lists. Yea, headin' south for the Disneyland Cruise, Mrs. wanted to do that one, and I agreed if we could take a few days to visit Capt. John Abbott at his place in the Bamaha's and see his collection of recovered sailing ship items from the hey day of that period. Pretty good deal - she gets what she wants and I get to see the neat stuff from the old ships, looks like a win, win deal. Plus may get to kick one big fat mouse's ass on the way, never did like him - always bad mouthing the other characters, only kidding Dennis and Lanney - he's your hero. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935 Date: 16 Sep 2000 12:16:31 EDT In a message dated 9/16/00 6:34:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, concho@uswestmail.net writes: << > > ANYONE INTERESTED IN THIS SET SHOULDN'T SPEND OVER $45-$50 AS THE DUST COVERS ARE POOR, A SET IN GOOD CONDITION WILL BRING $10 MORE/ AROUND $65.> > > >> If you're just intrested in Chittenden's information, not in getting an origional copy, reprints are available from Amazon.Com for about $18 per volume. Wife just got me Vol 2 to finish my set. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 16 Sep 2000 12:12:49 -0500 It had to be yew. John... At 08:32 AM 9/16/00 +0000, you wrote: >I have read several articals on what type of wood is good for bows, but >none of the woods are common or even present in Washington state. I would >like to know what types of wood common to Washington are good for biulding >bows. > >Larry >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 16 Sep 2000 13:43:38 EDT > I have read several articals on what type of wood is good for bows, but > >none of the woods are common or even present in Washington state.>> Try Yew or Vine Maple. Vine Maple has been the "rage" with some. Have also found walnut and ash, with occassionally locust and mulberry being cut out of yards. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 16 Sep 2000 11:46:27 -0600 The most common bow wood from here Montana to there Washington is Chokecherry. Yew is difficult to find and expensive. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Transportation for mountain men Date: 16 Sep 2000 02:20:55 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C01F84.BE2035E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Steve gave you a very good transportation list. I beg to in = only one respect." He claimed "horses speed, comfort (sometimes); can eat them if needed mules are = tougher." I do not have an original source but I understood that the Apache ate = mules but not horses, hense maybe they preferred the taste. Myself I = have both but doubt I will ever find out which is better eating since I = made that mistake of naming them. Sides I kinda like that baby mule. So Steve how you know that mules are tougher? Taste like chicken? YMOS WY=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C01F84.BE2035E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Steve gave you a very good transportation list. I beg to = <question> in=20 only one respect."

He claimed

"horses speed, comfort (sometimes); can eat them if needed mules are=20 tougher."

I do not have an original source but I understood that the Apache ate = mules=20 but not horses, hense maybe they preferred the taste. Myself I have both = but=20 doubt I will ever find out which is better eating since I made that = mistake of=20 naming them. Sides I kinda like that baby mule.

So Steve how you know that mules are tougher? Taste like=20 chicken?<G>

YMOS

WY

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C01F84.BE2035E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 16 Sep 2000 15:19:03 -0500 > I have read several articals on what type of wood is good for bows, but none > of the woods are common or even present in Washington state. I would like to > know what types of wood common to Washington are good for biulding bows. > There are quite a few good woods for bows. Oak, Hickory, Osage(bodark, hedge apple) red mulberry, yew, vinemaple, pecan, red cedar, just to mention a few. Try the folk at the stickbow site; http://www.bowsite.org/stickbow/tf/threads.cfm?forum=19,1,4 Or, try this one for your first bow, http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/brdbows.html Bows made from hardwood boards are as good as any, and boards are MUCH less expensive and MUCH easier to work than staves. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 16 Sep 2000 14:34:07 -0700 Larry, Though I am not an accomplished bow maker I know the following woods may be obtained naturally in WA. Yew, Locust, Cedar, Juniper, and there may be some others that don't come to mind. Hope that helps. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 16 Sep 2000 15:33:58 -0600 Hi John, I have been making bows like the one on the second link below since 1955. The problem with this method of making a bow is it is not period correct. Chokecherry, Vinemaple, Yew, or board can be use to make horse bows backed with sinew that would be pc in most the area covered by the mountain men. That is a good rendition of bow making in the late 40s and early 50s. I would still say that Chokecherry would make a good pc bow in Washington. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of jdearing Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 2:19 PM > I have read several articals on what type of wood is good for bows, but none > of the woods are common or even present in Washington state. I would like to > know what types of wood common to Washington are good for biulding bows. > There are quite a few good woods for bows. Oak, Hickory, Osage(bodark, hedge apple) red mulberry, yew, vinemaple, pecan, red cedar, just to mention a few. Try the folk at the stickbow site; http://www.bowsite.org/stickbow/tf/threads.cfm?forum=19,1,4 Or, try this one for your first bow, http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/brdbows.html Bows made from hardwood boards are as good as any, and boards are MUCH less expensive and MUCH easier to work than staves. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: metis/gary Date: 16 Sep 2000 20:38:59 MDT walt" i was there and gary make a great present of metis.i injoyed the talk it was history correct and presented to the unkowning people super. i was the one that wanted to hold garys coat while he cooled off,with only good uses in mined for metis flock coat."on my back"!! i could not see were the blonde ladys talk had anything to do with the fur trade let a lone the metis. i am sorry i butted in. i should of shut up and just ground my teeth together{i am not good at that}. was going to sneek up on you but the two that i thought might be you splite up out side{i am in the shadows }. allways watch the back that were i like it. ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 16 Sep 2000 21:44:42 -0500 > I have been making bows like the one on the second link below since 1955. > The problem with this method of making a bow is it is not period correct. > Chokecherry, Vinemaple, Yew, or board can be use to make horse bows backed > with sinew that would be pc in most the area covered by the mountain men. > That is a good rendition of bow making in the late 40s and early 50s. I > would still say that Chokecherry would make a good pc bow in Washington. > > > Yep Walt, chokecherry will make a pretty good bow, as will any medium hard wood to hard wood...if the bow is designed with the limitations of that species of wood in mind. i.e brittleness, flexibility, properties of compression and tension, and a couple of other properties I can't think of at the moment. Board bows are not pc, in any way shape or form, however, using boards for bowstaves is probably the easiest way to go for a first time bowyer. And no, most folks wouldn't know a board bow from a stave bow if they were hit over the head with it. I only mentioned making bow from boards as a means for a beginer to get started. A first step to a 100% pc primitive bow. Gotta walk before you can run. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 16 Sep 2000 19:46:24 -0700 Back East we use to use "Osage Orange", "Cherry" and any "berry" type of tree for good bows, some of the other hardwoods would split if pulled to far when compare to those mention above. Now in the West we have used again "Osage Orange", "Cherry" and "Hackberry" which seems to work very nicely being a straight grained wood. Have had a "Chokecherry" bow but the couple I have had where old and was afraid to put much strain on them like Walt does. A local bow maker - writer, Ken Wee uses chokecherry a lot, have taken several of his classes and he real braggs about its qualities. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: transport for mt man Date: 16 Sep 2000 21:54:40 MDT maybe just a few words from book ref. and from an ole horse, muleman, reading joe meeks travels ,thought trip threw paradise,ect. there are alot of referance s to mule s {rockymountain canarys}{rockymountain camals} being used. horse needlles to cover. bull boats were used alot by differant men coming down stream . bull boats tyed together carry pelts and goods and make a steader ride instead of one bull boat. in montana fort rose and fort union would be were easy traval with conoo would end ether upstream or downstream. we can not forget the foot travel which was done on a steady time lapes. a good mule is best for steady everyday packing or riding. a old type breed of mule was not as fast as a horse.a good mule will not hurt it self and most of the time knows when to quit. a good horse will run untel it drops then you can run the rest the of way to get help or save your skin.i ridding and packed both the mule seems to keeps footing beter in mountains. you can make better time with horse and not have side ack .As for eating willllll i like both to be on the young side.both make pretty good steaks.don't forget alot of euro countrys injoy horse meet as the indians did in slim times. and alot of books ref. eating horse meat. hiverant metis billings,mt _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Swan Shot Date: 16 Sep 2000 22:48:20 -0600 Hello the Camp, Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to using it. Thanks, Allen in Fort Hall country. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Swan Shot Date: 17 Sep 2000 01:03:59 -0500 Allen, Done both. Like it. If the lead is too hot or doesn't have far enough to fall to the water you won't get nice round shot with tails: but, mis-shapen flattened shrapnel. I use a tablespoon with a bunch of holes (of an appropriate size) punched in the bowl. It is not a pretty tool -- it is not a pretty load. Rips and tears as it tumbles in flight; doesn't hold tight patterns over distance. I use dry over powder and greasy scraps of buckskin for wadding, when I need it I run a round ball down on top of a shot load. John... At 10:48 PM 9/16/00 -0600, you wrote: >Hello the Camp, > >Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to >using it. > >Thanks, > >Allen in Fort Hall country. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Swan Shot Date: 17 Sep 2000 03:49:15 -0600 Hello the Camp, Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to using it. Thanks, Allen in Fort Hall country. Hi Allen, I have made and used swan shot since the mid 70s. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 17 Sep 2000 03:49:18 -0600 Another bow wood that should be common to Washington is Ash. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis/gary Date: 17 Sep 2000 03:49:20 -0600 Hi Ponyrider, Glad you could make it. Brain pressure always makes me want to head out. Gary did a great job of representing the Metis. Good stuff. Quite the blonde. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Swan Shot Date: 17 Sep 2000 07:43:54 -0700 On Sat, 16 September 2000, Allen Hall wrote: > > Hello the Camp, > > Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to > using it. > > Thanks, > > Allen in Fort Hall country. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We have used swan shot for 30 years, have made it for close to that. Easiest I have found is to use a large serving spoon with holes drilled in the bowl (have to play around with size as the holes will grow smaller with lead gathering around the edges), heat will be another thing that you'll learn to control after a short period of time. Have tried using larger and smaller containers, even a cast iron frying pan(thinking we could make a large amount faster) with 5' angle iron legs on it, with shot passing through a screen half way down to the water bucket (a hell of a mess after a while), the best is due small amounts - it's easier. The shot acts much different than round shot, lots of tearing, blood wounds, etc. - not like modern shot, poor patterns, touchy for distance, etc. If you want to be period correct use it, if you want game on a regular schedule - use round shot and carry a small bag of swan for the camp fire lectures. Goose Bay Workshops carries swan shot in small pillow ticking bags, if you just want to have some to carry that would be the fastest and easiest way to go. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Poorboy" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Swan Shot Date: 17 Sep 2000 08:36:04 -0700 Klahowya My Friends, Lots of good general information on this topic. Can anyone offer a few more specifics i.e.: a good size hole to start with in the spoon, a good distance to start holding the spoon from the water, do you lock the spoon in one position and ladle the hot led to the spoon, cautions have been offered as to the best temperature of the lead, what is a good temperature range? Thank you in advance for your time and efforts. YMOS PoorBoy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Swan Shot Date: 17 Sep 2000 10:58:18 -0600 > > Hello the Camp, > > Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to > using it. Thanks, Allen in Fort Hall country. Allen, I do not use any special equipment to make so called swan shot except the same lead ladle that I use to melt lead from the camp fire and pour from into my round ball mold blocks. I free pour the molten lead over the edge of the ladle into water. Remelt the bigger stuff. I do not try to make up pounds and pounds of the stuff. I run just enough for what I think are my immediate needs. Ron Tewalt makes swan shot. He makes lots of it. Hand picks out the odd ball stuff and ends up with a consistence mixture of sizes. Very nice stuff. My experience in using swan shot out of a rifle with a low powder charge on grouse at close range has been pretty good in terms of results. The swan shot works better out of my trade gun which is 24 gauge. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Swan Shot Date: 17 Sep 2000 12:54:01 -0500 > > Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to > > using it. > > > > > We have used swan shot for 30 years, have made it for close to that. Easiest I have found is to use a large serving spoon with holes drilled in the bowl (have to play around with size as the holes will grow smaller with lead gathering around the edges), heat will be another thing that you'll learn to control after a short period of time. Have tried using larger and smaller containers, even a cast iron frying pan(thinking we could make a large amount faster) with 5' angle iron legs on it, with shot passing through a screen half way down to the water bucket (a hell of a mess after a while), the best is due small amounts - it's easier. > > The shot acts much different than round shot, lots of tearing, blood wounds, etc. - not like modern shot, poor patterns, touchy for distance, etc. If you want to be period correct use it, if you want game on a regular schedule - use round shot and carry a small bag of swan for the camp fire lectures. Goose Bay Workshops carries swan shot in small pillow ticking bags, if you just want to have some to carry that would be the fastest and easiest way to go. > > I have had fair luck making "swan droppings", swan shot was a size of shot, not a type of shot, by punching holes in the bottom of a tin can. I ended up punching four more holes about half way up the side of the can to insert two wires to support a baffle with about half the number of holes as the bottom of the can. Got more good usable shot that way. I suspended the can about 4-6 inches over the water and slowly poured HOT lead into the can. The best I could get was about 60-70% good shot to the balance of flat misshapen junk. Separating the good from the junk took more time than making the rig and pouring the shot. Next time, I think I'll use a coffee can with holes punched in the bottom and filled with hot coals, and drop the shot somewhere between 5 and 15 feet. Nasty stuff to get hit with, and produces nasty wounds. Good game getter though, I haven't lost a single squirrel hit with this stuff. Had to shoot a couple a second time, but I had plenty of time to reload as the squirrels seemed to be in shock, and didn't run very far before hunkering down on a limb. Anyone else experience anything like this. How about loading the shot in paper cartridges? Might not be pc, but should improve patterns quite a bit. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: rendevous Date: 17 Sep 2000 12:03:34 MDT ho camp!! hiverant metis are thinking of haveing a metis rondy. what is the most poplar event in your rendevous area. would like to get from other area s so we can look at something new. sure would like your input, you the silent reader to! hiverant metis p.o. 31222 billings, mt59101 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Swan Shot Date: 17 Sep 2000 12:54:28 -0600 JD, you and Buck seem to be getting very different results than I do by using small amounts working over the campfire. In my opinion, small is beautiful this case. Sounds like you guys are building a shot tower VBG. For you who are interested. Try my way and then use thin blanket patching. I use less than a 1/2 ounce of shot out of my shot scoop and pour the shot in my palm on top of the thin blanket material for wad patch. I twist the patch closed and insert the twist first. All this seems period correct to me. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: rendevous Date: 17 Sep 2000 12:57:25 -0600 ho camp!! hiverant metis are thinking of haveing a metis rondy. what is the most poplar event in your rendevous area. would like to get from other area s so we can look at something new. sure would like your input, you the silent reader to! Ponyrider, You hold the event near Lewistown, the heart of Montana Metis Country and I think you have the making of a great event. The more of the old time skills represented the better. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: suitable wood Date: 17 Sep 2000 13:35:26 -0700 larry sherman wrote: > I have read several articals on what type of wood is good for bows, but none > of the woods are common or even present in Washington state. For what it's worth..... According to "Indians of Idaho", by D. Walker, the Kutenai bows were of wild cherry or cedar, and reinforced with sinew (page 48). The Nez Perce (who wandered Oregon and Washington) favored Syringa and Yew (page 79), these were also backed with sinew as were the bows of the Couer D'Alene, Kalispel, and Kutenai. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: MtMan-List: beginnings of the mountain men Date: 17 Sep 2000 14:35:18 -0600 The Montana Archaeological Society, federal, state, corporate and private co-sponsors are pleased to present you with the Montana Archaeology Week 2000 poster. This year Becky Timmons, Kootenai National Forest Archaeologist, was responsible for the design and production of the Archaeology week 2000 poster on behalf of the Montana Archaeological Society. The illustration itself is copyrighted to the Jesuit Archives, St. Jerome, Quebec, Canada -ASJCF. Bureau of Indian Affairs, Montana Bureau of Land Management, Montana Ethnoscience Inc., Billings Ethos Consultants, Havre GCM Services Inc., Butte Montana Archaeological Society Montana Department of Transportation Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks, Parks Division Museum of the Rockies U.S.D.A. Forest Service, Northern Region Western Cultural, Missoula Williston Basin Interstate Pipeline Company Montana Historical Society, State Historic Preservation Office Clark Bottom Rendezvous completed a week of presentations including current activities around Pomp's Pillar a crown jewel in the history of Lewis and Clark. Look for Japan and the grain growers association to construct mammoth grain silos along with a railroad siding that will dominate the landscape erasing the one mark of the Corp of Discovery known all over the world as a symbol of the American dream of independence. To bad more mountain men do not live in Montana. It takes man power to over come this visual pollution factor that would push this bicentennial history into the background. If any of you would like to see a autocad representation of how big this phallic symbol thrust up above the historic landmark. I will send you one off line. Talking about history Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: beginnings of the mountain men Date: 17 Sep 2000 13:58:08 -0700 (PDT) You aren't referring to Pumpelly's Pillar in Glacier National Park, are you? That's by Two Medicine Lake heading out to Dawson Pass. Either way, I still detest commercial development since WE still have to scrabble for a living ANYWAY. --- Walt Foster wrote: > Clark Bottom Rendezvous completed a week of > presentations including current > activities around Pomp's Pillar a crown jewel in the > history of Lewis and > Clark. Look for Japan and the grain growers > association to construct > mammoth grain silos along with a railroad siding > that will dominate the > landscape erasing the one mark of the Corp of > Discovery known all over the > world as a symbol of the American dream of > independence. ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935 Date: 17 Sep 2000 17:59:45 -0400 Ratcliff wrote: > The Chittenden set is available in paperback for about $25. The set is full of good stuff. Gen. Chittenden was in the Corps of Engineers and laid out the roads in Yellowstone Park. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935 Date: 17 Sep 2000 18:02:58 -0400 Oops! I hit "send" before adding my comment that the set on Ebay just went for $98. That will buy lot's of other things after getting the paperback version. Thanks for the tip! Tom tom roberts wrote: > Ratcliff wrote: > > > The Chittenden set is available in paperback for about $25. The set is full of good stuff. Gen. Chittenden was in the Corps of Engineers and laid out the roads in Yellowstone Park". ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: beginnings of the mountain men Date: 17 Sep 2000 16:27:18 -0600 You aren't referring to Pumpelly's Pillar in Glacier National Park, are you? That's by Two Medicine Lake heading out to Dawson Pass. Either way, I still detest commercial development since WE still have to scrabble for a living ANYWAY. ===== defstones I refer to Pomp's Pillar located along the Yellowstone River in Montana. It was a known landmark to the mountain men but it is best known for it's history associated with Captain William A. Clark on July 25, 1806. It would be a great place to hold a mountain man camp. I have reduced the picture to a gif format set in 1-7. It is a good perspective and shows what will be the polluted view, if erected. They can move the location a few miles in either direction. They made their building move without the required permits. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: RE: MtMan-List: beginnings of the mountain men Date: 17 Sep 2000 15:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Thanks for your reply. have not been along that stretch of the Yellowstone River yet. Will search out the journals and read it again for the first time. Hope you or others succeed in staging a camp for Metis and Mountain Men. > I refer to Pomp's Pillar located along the > Yellowstone River in Montana. It > was a known landmark to the mountain men but it is > best known for it's > history associated with Captain William A. Clark on > July 25, 1806. > > It would be a great place to hold a mountain man > camp. I have reduced the > picture to a gif format set in 1-7. It is a good > perspective and shows what > will be the polluted view, if erected. They can > move the location a few > miles in either direction. They made their building > move without the > required permits. > > Walt > ORMC 1836-1837 > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Transportation for mountain men--mules taste Date: 18 Sep 2000 10:52:34 EDT When I was doing my research for my book on mountain man, Robert Campbell, I found several comments about eating "young colt with wild onions." I did not find anything about eating mules! However, if one is hungry enough, even iguana would be okay. Actually, mules are more muscular and the marbling one finds with fat in the meat would probably be less in horses than in mules. At least that is what a horse-shoer friend of mine says. I have not eaten either-- nor, do I have any plans to do so. My wife ate horse in France years ago-- she says that it "did not taste like chicken." Take care, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pavel Grund" Subject: MtMan-List: mystic symbols Date: 18 Sep 2000 18:06:11 +0200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0219B.20AF9800 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C0219B.20AF9800" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C0219B.20AF9800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hallo Concho and all I have true interest of MYSTIC symbols in relation to guns, not of trade = marks or proof marks. I will attache picture of symbols crooked heart, = X-cross and eight-tips star. This symbols was used as decoration on rifles, on stock, and was from = brass or silver. Beside decoration it has denotation for luck. In Europe = is know different "shooters witchcraft", mainly from the Middle Ages, = but until last century. Once again: Knows everybody how amount have diferent symbols and in what times and = teritory was used? Thank you for all answers! Peggy ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C0219B.20AF9800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hallo Concho and all
 
I have true interest = of MYSTIC symbols in=20 relation to guns, not of trade marks or proof marks. I will attache  picture of symbols crooked heart, = X-cross and=20 eight-tips star.
This symbols was used as decoration on rifles, on stock, and was = from brass=20 or silver. Beside decoration it has denotation for luck. In Europe is = know=20 different "shooters witchcraft", mainly from the Middle Ages, = but until=20 last century.
 
Once again:
 
Knows everybody how amount have = diferent=20 symbols and in what times and teritory was used?
 
 
Thank you for all = answers!
 
Peggy
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Sep 2000 13:01:02 -0400 Well y'all... heading out tomorrow to go to the Eastern 'Vous... So... I clicked unsubscribe on the lists... Will relog when we get back... Standing invite to all who attend to come see us if ya get there... Just ask at the front gate where the Mouse House is located... Will leave note there... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mystic symbols Date: 18 Sep 2000 14:25:10 EDT > I will attache picture of symbols crooked heart, X-cross and eight-tips star. Pavel, There is nothing mystic about the inlay decorations. They evolved from the folklore of the Pennsylvania gunmakers of the US. The crooked heart is known as the "weeping heart." The 8 pointed star is known as the "Hunter's Star" and represents the 8 points of the compass. I don't know about the X-cross, however many different types of crosses were inlet into guns. Most were of French Catholic origin, including the Cross of Lorraine. These were commonly used pieces of trade silver which were traded to the Indians. All the pieces date from the 1700's forward as gun inlays in the US. They were commonly used as good luck charms for the shooter of the gun, and later they just became decorative elements of the Pennsylvania style longrifle. Other common inlays included the fish, the eagle, and the acorn. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mystic symbols Date: 18 Sep 2000 12:50:30 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C0216F.06CDA200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peggy, The "X-cross" is also known as "St. Andrew's Cross" and is part of = the motif on the British Flag. St. Andrew was crucified on a cross of = this making, spread-eagle. Like the Cross of Lorraine, it is a = decorative element introduced by Jesuits and other missionaries into the = Native American culture and, no doubt, found it's way into the stocks of = Christian pioneers. Larry Huber =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Pavel Grund=20 To: ve=F8ejn=E1 konference US MM=20 Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 9:06 AM Subject: MtMan-List: mystic symbols Hallo Concho and all =20 I have true interest of MYSTIC symbols in relation to guns, not of = trade marks or proof marks. I will attache picture of symbols crooked = heart, X-cross and eight-tips star. This symbols was used as decoration on rifles, on stock, and was from = brass or silver. Beside decoration it has denotation for luck. In Europe = is know different "shooters witchcraft", mainly from the Middle Ages, = but until last century. Once again: Knows everybody how amount have diferent symbols and in what times and = teritory was used? Thank you for all answers! Peggy ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C0216F.06CDA200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peggy,
    The "X-cross" is = also known as=20 "St. Andrew's Cross" and is part of the motif on the British Flag.  = St.=20 Andrew was crucified on a cross of this making, spread-eagle.  Like = the=20 Cross of Lorraine, it is a decorative element introduced by Jesuits and = other=20 missionaries into the Native American culture and, no doubt, found it's = way into=20 the stocks of Christian pioneers.
 
Larry Huber
   
  
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Pavel Grund
To: ve=F8ejn=E1=20 konference US MM
Sent: Monday, September 18, = 2000 9:06=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: mystic = symbols

Hallo Concho and = all
 
I have true interest = of MYSTIC symbols=20 in relation to guns, not of trade marks or proof marks. I will = attache  picture of symbols crooked = heart, X-cross=20 and eight-tips star.
This symbols was used as decoration on rifles, on stock, and was = from=20 brass or silver. Beside decoration it has denotation for luck. In = Europe is=20 know different "shooters witchcraft", mainly from the Middle Ages,=20 but until last century.
 
Once again:
 
Knows everybody how amount have = diferent=20 symbols and in what times and teritory was used?
 
 
Thank you for all = answers!
 
Peggy
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C0216F.06CDA200-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going to Eastern Vous Date: 18 Sep 2000 21:19:59 -0400 Addison Miller wrote: > > Well y'all... heading out tomorrow to go to the Eastern 'Vous... So... I > clicked unsubscribe on the lists... > > Will relog when we get back... > > Standing invite to all who attend to come see us if ya get there... Just > ask at the front gate where the Mouse House is located... Will leave note > there... A gun builder friend of mine (Rick Farrel) will be there as well. 'Wanted to go, but toooooo much going on at work. Fred -- If you listen on a quiet night, you can hear the sound of an NT Server reboot. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: phases of the moon Date: 19 Sep 2000 10:27:40 -0400 Does anyone know of a web site for moons ? Example hunters moon, harvest moon, blue moon. I know these but there are several more phases that I would like to know. Thanks John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: MtMan-List: Symposium Date: 19 Sep 2000 17:14:44 -0600 We're off to the symposium in the morning. Hope to meet some of you there. I'll report on the doins when I return next Monday. HOORAH FOR THE LAND COMMITTEE!!!!! "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 19 Sep 2000 20:15:03 -0600 tap, tap, tap......is this thing on???? Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 19 Sep 2000 21:33:32 -0700 Nope Ain't nobody here ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- tap, tap, tap......is this thing on???? Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 19 Sep 2000 22:21:36 -0400 Just us boogermen..... "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 19 Sep 2000 23:46:16 EDT Huh Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DickSummers@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Tap Tap Tap Date: 20 Sep 2000 00:34:47 EDT Lanney Ratcliff wrote, "tap tap tap Is anyone out there?" Good question, Lanney. Who is out there? Seems to me that when most folks ought to hold their tongue, they don't. Then again there are some individuals with burning questions but they aren't comfortable to ask them -- can't imagine why with the way we all embrace diversity on this list. And, of course there are those that ooooooooozzzzzzzze confidence and intellectualism. Skills. Well, I won't even go there because unless we all get on the ground together (and wouldn't that be a doin?) who would know? And who'd be the judge? Enough said, "God bless us every one." That's Dickens who said that, not I. One with you all in our pursuit of history, keep up the good work. Dick Summers P.S. Lanney Ratcliff, thanks for saying "tap, tap, tap" instead of "knock, knock, knock." Who knows where that would have taken us? DS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tap Tap Tap Date: 19 Sep 2000 22:02:33 -0700 Lanney, I've been here, just trying to keep my foot out my mouth by keeping it shut . I've recently become involved in a project, helping a graduated (he turned 18) Junior member earn his brain tanning requirement. It seems he has access to 3/4 dozen deer hides. George and I are gonna help him tan them, with some of the proceeds going to George and I , of course. One can always use some brain tanned deer skins, ya know. Anyway, we have the hides, but need a quantity of brains to do the tanning. Well, I went down to the local 'brain' store to shop for some brains. They had quite a selection. Which kind to buy, I wonders? I notice they have some Mountain Man Brains in a big jar, but they were extraordinarily expensive. This made me proud, of course, but curious. I asked the clerk why Mountain Man brains were soooo expensive per pound? Must be quality, I asked? That clerk answered, Nooo not exactly..... Do you realize how many Mountain Men it takes to get a pound of brains???? hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 03:14:30 -0700 On Tue, 19 September 2000, "larry pendleton" wrote: > > Nope Ain't nobody here ! > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: Ratcliff > To: History List > Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 7:15 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 > > > tap, tap, tap......is this thing on???? > Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------ Just us and your local Fed. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: MtMan-List: swords in the furtrade? Date: 20 Sep 2000 15:07:33 GMT Awhile back someone brought up the question about knife styles and swords in the furtrade...the knife question took off like wildfire but what about the swords? I see them listed on trade lists, were they just used for Indian goods or were they possibly cut down to make "fancy" knives? Does anyone have an answer in regards to this? Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 16:47:37 -0700 Is this where we hear the squelch in the background and all of us run for cover or cover our ears??? I think everyone is out to the Eastern or the Seminar or something. I am getting bord, board, or boarded? Something like that. So, whats' up "doc"? Linda Holley Ratcliff wrote: > tap, tap, tap......is this thing on???? > Lanney Ratcliff > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 13:59:37 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 4:47 PM > Is this where we hear the squelch in the background and all of us run for > cover or cover our ears??? I think everyone is out to the Eastern or the > Seminar or something. I am getting bord, board, or boarded? Something > like that. So, whats' up "doc"? Linda, If someone would ask a question, I would make some kind of off the wall answer that everyone can jump on and shoot full of holes and we can go from there. It's hunting season in many places. I'm between trips at the moment but ain't stayin home any longer than I have to. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 14:37:43 -0700 (PDT) > > Is this where we hear the squelch in the > background and all of us run for > > cover or cover our ears??? I think everyone is > out to the Eastern or the > > Seminar or something. I am getting bord, board, > or boarded? Something > > like that. So, whats' up "doc"? > > Linda, > > If someone would ask a question, I would make some > kind of off the wall > answer that everyone can jump on and shoot full of > holes and we can go from > there. It's hunting season in many places. I'm > between trips at the > moment but ain't stayin home any longer than I have > to. Capt. Lahti' Here's a question: why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses? Seriously, if black powder and horses did not exist in America, how far into the interior continent would the European immigrants have gone? The Plains tribes for instance barely populated the grasslands before the escape of the spanish Barbs, right? ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 15:34:37 -0700 Weren't there mastodon hunters out there waaayyyy before the plains tribes. In response to how far would the europeans have gone though...good question....maybe the Viking settlements in the New World give us a hint on the pre-blackpowder days. Seems like back then the ones with the biggest stick ruled the roost eh? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: MtMan-List: how about this for a subject? Date: 20 Sep 2000 17:36:58 -0600 Since the site is slow, how about a comment and then you guys jump in? How many times have you heard that the only white women in the west were the missionary wives? Then all the "experts" use Narcissa Whitman and Mrs. Spaulding as the only possible personas that white women today can portary accurately? Well, there were actually fourteen women and two young white ladies in the west before 1840. This does not include the one or two found in the southwest prior to 1841. The list as I have it is: 1836 Narcissa Whitman Eliza Spaulding 1838 Sarah Smith Mary Grey Mary Walker Satira Rogers (who died at Willaimette falls- drowning) Mrs. Eells 1839 Mrs. John Griffin Mrs. Asahel Munger (both independant missionaries) 1840 Mrs. Harvey Clark Mrs. P. Littlejohn Mrs. Alvin Smith (above were independant missionaries) Mrs. Joel Walker Joel's sister two young daughters (the Walkers were not missionaries, the first settlers west) Now in 1841, it seems like there were 24 more whites (American) in Oregon and 114 more in 1842. While we are on the subject- you do find English white women in the forts on the west coast during this time. Wives and relatives of fort employees. So, it is true that only two white women came to the rendezvous. But far more than that went west during what most people consider the fur trade! mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 16:29:17 -0700 > Here's a question: why are there so many more horses > asses than there are horses? Deafstones, I'll take a crack since I brought up the idea. To your first question: Because some one needs to ask that question and someone will come along and try to answer it so there are at least twice as many. > > Seriously, if black powder and horses did not exist in > America, how far into the interior continent would the > European immigrants have gone? Now to your second question: They would probably never have left Europe since they had no powder and no horses. Think about your question. The Plains tribes for > instance barely populated the grasslands before the > escape of the spanish Barbs, right? And finally: Well.............they did populate the plains and many other areas of the continent didn't they? And didn't the great Indian civilizations of South America, Central America and even our South West and Eastern Mound Builders ,etc. exist without the horse or gun powder for that matter? Many of the "plains Indians" came to be there because they were pushed out of their ancestoral lands in the Eastern US and thus were on the Plains and sucessful simply because of the coming of europeans but there before europeans. They in their turn had pushed out other tribes to be there so the Plains must have been populated to some degree. So perhaps the Plains were not overly populated simply because the resource could not be utilized as effectively but many other areas of the country were well populated because resources were easy to come by and were being efficiently utilized. The fish and agriculture of the eastern indians, the salmon and whaleing cultures of the west, the civilizations of the rest of North and South America, etc. We could speculate and say that the Indian was doing just fine on this continent without the horse and gun and we could further speculate that given time they would have invented ways to further over populate this continent and perhaps wipe out the buffalo on their own as they probably wiped out such animals as the mamoth and mastidon. There may even have still been horses and camels, etc. here when the indian first arrived and rather than ride them, the indian ate them. And all without the benifit of guns and powder. Amaizing. I'm running out of bs so someone else needs to take over so Linda feels like we're earning our keep. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 16:24:02 -0700 (PDT) --- Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote: > Weren't there mastodon hunters out there waaayyyy > before the plains tribes. In > response to how far would the europeans have gone > though...good > question....maybe the Viking settlements in the New > World give us a hint on the > pre-blackpowder days. Seems like back then the ones > with the biggest stick > ruled the roost eh? Yes, the earlier settlements failed to take hold, such as the first Virginia settlements and some on the Texas coast did not survive as well. Even when the immigrants became "naturalized", that is adapted to the land, they still chose places to live that NO natives would be caught dead in, such as the Los Angeles Basin (smog air inversions were well known then). Apparently, odds improved through sheer numbers of an invasive species, the "Euro-Americans". Metalurgy and blackpowder seems to be the unfair advantage along with the horses. If the Vikings had the horses with them, would they have survived? ...and claimed the continent for Norway and Sweden? ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 16:41:22 -0700 (PDT) --- Roger Lahti wrote: > Now to your second question: They would probably > never have left Europe > since they had no powder and no horses. Think about > your question. I agree with your first and third answers wholeheartedly. Life may have been improved dramatically with the arrival of the white man's horse for transportation (tipis and possessions became bigger, for example). Otherwise, life's great, probably better than Renaissance Europe. In some areas, the natives surpassed the Euro-American's technology. I can't believe you wrote the second answer! Perhaps, you should reconsider your answer. Crowded and oppressed Europeans couldn't stay home, could they? I'm straying far from the discussion now: The difference between America and Australia is that America was presented as a kind of Utopia (religion, freedom, economy, etc.) that it could/would not live up to while Australia began as a penal colony (just reviewed the tapes recorded off PBS's the Fatal Shore while I was in Colorado's Weminuche Wilderness). Whichever, where else can Germans, Austrians, Hessians, Scotch-Irish-welsh go to? They could not live at all had they stayed, could they? Respectfully yours, ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 16:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Has anyway read "Killing the White Man's Indian" by Fergus M. Bordewich? ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 17:18:51 -0700 > I can't believe you wrote the second answer! Perhaps, > you should reconsider your answer. Crowded and > oppressed Europeans couldn't stay home, could they? The point of my answer was that the original question precluded anyone having horse or powder in the New World by virtue of how the question was asked. If that had really been the case, I doubt the European would have had the civilization in place to come to this continent in any strength. The Vikings are a good expample along with other early sea faring cultures that may have come over without a record having been kept. The Vikings either were pushed back out by the indigenus peoples or failed because of politics or lack of resources or perhaps the ability to utilize the scant resources or because there were little resources to utilize. If they had been posessors of the horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eaglesdre@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 20:16:55 EDT I was wondering if you have any insight on how to restore brain tanned leather. I came across a shirt that is in great need of help. Tahnks for any input you can provide. Jim B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS Date: 20 Sep 2000 19:48:56 -0700 Capt, Here's a topic and I discussed a little last summer. How do you and others feel Northwest Guns were finished ? We talked about how the wood was finished sometime ago, but what about the metal parts ? Were they blued, browned, or in the white ? Were the barrels blued or browned and the locks left white ? Or not ? Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry sherman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 21 Sep 2000 00:38:03 GMT . If they had been posessors of the >horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP >Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. I >remain... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the black powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were able to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could throw more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one bullet. Respectfully Larry Sherman _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS Date: 20 Sep 2000 19:54:43 -0700 OOps ! Should have said: Here's a topic you and I discussed a little last summer. Senior moment Pendleton -----Original Message----- Capt, Here's a topic and I discussed a little last summer. How do you and others feel Northwest Guns were finished ? We talked about how the wood was finished sometime ago, but what about the metal parts ? Were they blued, browned, or in the white ? Were the barrels blued or browned and the locks left white ? Or not ? Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 18:09:49 -0700 (PDT) --- larry sherman wrote: > > . If they had been posessors of the > >horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different > history. But pre BP > >Europeans probably would not have made any inroads > on this continent. I > >remain... > > > >YMOS > >Capt. Lahti' > > > > > I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents > that even with the black > powder and until the creation of repeating arms that > the indians were able > to push the settlements back. The reson for this was > that they could throw > more arrows faster than the settlers could load and > fire their weapons. I > can't find my book right now but it was somthing > like 4 arrows to one > bullet. > > Respectfully Larry Sherman > Thanks for the reminder about repeaters. First arrows and then bullets. Believe it was BETTER than 4 arrows to one bullet! ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: how about this for a subject? Date: 20 Sep 2000 18:13:57 -0700 (PDT) --- Mike Moore wrote: > Since the site is slow, how about a comment and > then you guys jump > in? > How many times have you heard that the only white > women in the > west were the missionary wives? Then all the > "experts" use Narcissa > Whitman and Mrs. Spaulding as the only possible > personas that > white women today can portary accurately? Thanks for this list! Gonna pass this on to Pam for her 'portrayals' or whatever she calls her lectures. ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS Date: 20 Sep 2000 18:27:23 -0700 > Were they blued, browned, or in the white ? Were the barrels blued or > browned and the locks left white ? Or not ? > Pendleton Pendleton, To be honest I have no idea. Anything I would have to say on it would be speculation. In that vein I would speculate that from what we know about common practices, they may very well have been heat blued though I can see a good case for in the white and browned. I have seen experts discuss this and many feel that bluing the metal via a heat treatment (cooking it in a special ash mix) was probably more common than browning and that even "in the White" was very common especially with military weapons. Seeing an original today that is browned, it seems to me that it is problematical as to whether the brown finish came from natural age or was manufactured that way. Any way I am speculating and there are surely others who's knowledge will enlighen all of us more. I remain Sir.......... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS Date: 20 Sep 2000 21:36:24 EDT > In that vein I would speculate that from what we know about > common practices, they may very well have been heat blued though I can see a > good case for in the white and browned. I have seen experts discuss this and > many feel that bluing the metal via a heat treatment (cooking it in a > special ash mix) was probably more common than browning and that even "in > the White" was very common especially with military weapons. One of the earliest, most used, and least mentioned methods of metal finishing on these early firearms was salt. It works quickly, imparts the required finish to the metal, and is durable. You swab a salt solution on the metal, let it rust, and card it off. An asphaltum or linseed oil coating was often used to kill the action. Many early military firearms were finished this way, and it was a simple method for "contract" guns which had to be built in large quantity and finished under a deadline. I ain't saying that it was used on Northwest guns, but they fit the profile. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 18:43:00 -0700 > I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the black > powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were able > to push the settlements back. Larry, Sure am glad someone agrees with me. I am not sure I agree with what was contended in "The History of the Gun" though. I see that as an oversimplification and romantization of the relationship between different weapons. The reson for this was that they could throw > more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I > can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one > bullet. No doubt that a disparity in fire power existed but a bit of speculation and extrapolation on known history says it was more complicated than just a matter of fire power. If we're talking about the advent of repeating arms as the point when the First People lost the battle to throw back the new comer then let's talk about what happened prior to that. In early America both Indian and White were soon similarly armed. Whites at times encroached on Indian lands with success and other times the fortunes of war were against them but right up to the advent of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade Era in the early 1800's White culture was moving west inexorably without the advantage of repeating arms. During the Western Fur Trade Whites were sucessful in conducting business out into the center of the great Plains Indian Culture without the advantage of repeating arms and the Oregon Trail Migration took place with little military conflict of arms between Whites and Indians without the advantage of repeating arms. Much of the West was settled by the time of the great indian wars on the Plains. The Indian didn't try or was not effective in holding back European Westward movement with or without repeating arms. So my take on all this is that the conclusions reached by the authors of that book are flawed big time. In Europe, the bow gave way to the gun mainly because it was easier to train a soldier to use a musket than raise him from infancy to shoot a long bow with effect. But Long bows were still effective in battle for some time after the introduction of the gun. Just not easily learned. Respectfully, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS Date: 20 Sep 2000 18:44:40 -0700 Senior moment > Pendleton Pendleton, My senior moments start less than a day back. No memory of anything past this morning. Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry sherman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 21 Sep 2000 01:56:26 GMT I'll have to agree with you again. >From: "Roger Lahti" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:43:00 -0700 > > > > > I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the >black > > powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were >able > > to push the settlements back. > >Larry, > >Sure am glad someone agrees with me. I am not sure I agree with what >was >contended in "The History of the Gun" though. I see that as an >oversimplification and romantization of the relationship between different >weapons. > >The reson for this was that they could throw > > more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. >I > > can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one > > bullet. > >No doubt that a disparity in fire power existed but a bit of speculation >and >extrapolation on known history says it was more complicated than just a >matter of fire power. If we're talking about the advent of repeating arms >as >the point when the First People lost the battle to throw back the new comer >then let's talk about what happened prior to that. > >In early America both Indian and White were soon similarly armed. Whites at >times encroached on Indian lands with success and other times the fortunes >of war were against them but right up to the advent of the Rocky Mt. Fur >Trade Era in the early 1800's White culture was moving west inexorably >without the advantage of repeating arms. > >During the Western Fur Trade Whites were sucessful in conducting business >out into the center of the great Plains Indian Culture without the >advantage >of repeating arms and the Oregon Trail Migration took place with little >military conflict of arms between Whites and Indians without the advantage >of repeating arms. Much of the West was settled by the time of the great >indian wars on the Plains. The Indian didn't try or was not effective in >holding back European Westward movement with or without repeating arms. So >my take on all this is that the conclusions reached by the authors of that >book are flawed big time. > >In Europe, the bow gave way to the gun mainly because it was easier to >train >a soldier to use a musket than raise him from infancy to shoot a long bow >with effect. But Long bows were still effective in battle for some time >after the introduction of the gun. Just not easily learned. Respectfully, I >remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 21:58:01 -0400 > I was wondering if you have any insight on how to restore brain tanned > leather >>JIm, If it is dirty and kinda dry, just re-brain it. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: how about this for a subject? Date: 20 Sep 2000 18:59:10 -0700 Mike Moore wrote: > Well, there were actually fourteen women and two young white > ladies in the west before 1840. This does not include the one or two > found in the southwest prior to 1841. The list as I have it is: Mike... if you throw in the Nor'Westers in the Oregon territory, the list expands a bit more with a white woman (english barmaid) ..... I forget her name, in 1813, not to mention the many Metis of various mixtures. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Jul 2000 19:59:48 -0600 Larry, I was always under the impresion that what desemated the Indian society was Disease? not Black Powder Weapons and the Horse. It also seams to me that the tribes were so bussy fighting and killing each other that it was easy for europeans to devide and subjegate the tribes, one by one. If the Indian tribes had posesion of black powder weapons and the horse, the killing of each other would have made the hundred years war in Europe look like a church social. Some of the tribes discribed by George Catlin were practicing Human Sacrafice into the 1830's and now there is a theory that the Anestazi may have practiced Canabalism, no wonder some of them built there homes on clifs. OK now how is that for a discusion thread? YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "larry sherman" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 6:38 PM > > >. If they had been posessors of the >>horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP >>Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. I >>remain... >> >>YMOS >>Capt. Lahti' >> > > >I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the black >powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were able >to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could throw >more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I >can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one >bullet. > >Respectfully Larry Sherman >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry sherman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 21 Sep 2000 02:08:53 GMT The gun and horse are the tools that allowed us a foothold on this country. Without them we would'nt be here. >From: "Ole B. Jensen" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:59:48 -0600 > >Larry, >I was always under the impresion that what desemated the Indian society was >Disease? not Black Powder Weapons and the Horse. It also seams to me that >the tribes were so bussy fighting and killing each other that it was easy >for europeans to devide and subjegate the tribes, one by one. If the Indian >tribes had posesion of black powder weapons and the horse, the killing of >each other would have made the hundred years war in Europe look like a >church social. Some of the tribes discribed by George Catlin were >practicing >Human Sacrafice into the 1830's and now there is a theory that the Anestazi >may have practiced Canabalism, no wonder some of them built there homes on >clifs. OK now how is that for a discusion thread? >YMOS >Ole # 718 >---------- > >From: "larry sherman" > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 > >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 6:38 PM > > > > > > >. If they had been posessors of the > >>horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP > >>Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. I > >>remain... > >> > >>YMOS > >>Capt. Lahti' > >> > > > > > >I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the >black > >powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were >able > >to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could >throw > >more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I > >can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one > >bullet. > > > >Respectfully Larry Sherman > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Trade Guns Date: 20 Sep 2000 21:16:23 -0500 I hope you don't mind if I get in on this one. The fit and finish on trade guns, especially Northwest Trade Guns, depends on the period of manufacture. Because they were the cheapest guns made the early Northwest Trade Guns were shipped in the white, without even any finish or stain on the stocks and no finish on the barrel or lock. At a meeting of the Governor and Committee of the Hudson's Bay Company held on December 20, 1780 it was ordered: "That in the future the Guns have Brown Stocks (no white) the barrals (sic) likewise brown with an additional Weight of 6 oz. to them, for strength" Eventually the specifications required that barrels be browned and the stocks be well varnished. The Secretary of the Hudson's Bay Company wrote E.& W. Bond, viewers for the Company, on June 26, 1861: "Of late years our common Indian guns have not given satisfaction. Indians complain of the stocks being clumsy, and finished without taste, and also that the cocks are weak in the spring. We request that those now being ordered may have the stock of neater shape, and coated with a fine sable brown varnish, with double neck cocks and the priming pans perfectly powder tight." The U.S. Office of Indian trade in 1808 and 1809 sent orders to England for guns, each order included "100 N.W. Guns, blued barrels & Brass mounted except the guard to be of iron and forty guns of the same caliber but with brown barrels and all brass mountings at a higher price." (evidently these last forty guns were "Chief's guns".) Pieces made for the American Fur Company were always specified to have blued barrels and varnished stocks, An order in 1828 for J. J. Henry Northwest Guns required "the barrels to be light blue and the stocks well varnished." Well after the RMFT time period, N.W. percussion trade guns were finished with blued barrels, mottled case hardened locks and Japanned iron ramrods, trigger guards with a japanned like finish resembling old-style iron builders hardware, and heavily varnished stocks with the varnish covering the buttplate. This information is all from Charles Hanson's book "The Northwest Gun", published in 1955. I hope this helps. YMOS, Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Jul 2000 20:26:14 -0600 Larry, True! but I don't think of it as an invasion or a beach head. The early colonies were set up to make money for those that invested in them. Except for the Spanish. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "larry sherman" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 8:08 PM > >The gun and horse are the tools that allowed us a foothold on this country. >Without them we would'nt be here. > > >>From: "Ole B. Jensen" >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:59:48 -0600 >> >>Larry, >>I was always under the impresion that what desemated the Indian society was >>Disease? not Black Powder Weapons and the Horse. It also seams to me that >>the tribes were so bussy fighting and killing each other that it was easy >>for europeans to devide and subjegate the tribes, one by one. If the Indian >>tribes had posesion of black powder weapons and the horse, the killing of >>each other would have made the hundred years war in Europe look like a >>church social. Some of the tribes discribed by George Catlin were >>practicing >>Human Sacrafice into the 1830's and now there is a theory that the Anestazi >>may have practiced Canabalism, no wonder some of them built there homes on >>clifs. OK now how is that for a discusion thread? >>YMOS >>Ole # 718 >>---------- >> >From: "larry sherman" >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >> >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 6:38 PM >> > >> >> > >> >. If they had been posessors of the >> >>horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP >> >>Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. I >> >>remain... >> >> >> >>YMOS >> >>Capt. Lahti' >> >> >> > >> > >> >I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the >>black >> >powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were >>able >> >to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could >>throw >> >more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I >> >can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one >> >bullet. >> > >> >Respectfully Larry Sherman >> >_________________________________________________________________________ >> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. >> > >> >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >> >http://profiles.msn.com. >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 19:38:09 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 6:56 PM > I'll have to agree with you again. Larry, your ,making it too easy and your a man after my own heart. Thanks. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry sherman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 21 Sep 2000 02:34:17 GMT I was just responding to the original question with referance to later years. The question was how far into this country would we have made it with out guns or horses? The answear is as far as the natives let us. >From: "Ole B. Jensen" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 20:26:14 -0600 > >Larry, >True! but I don't think of it as an invasion or a beach head. The early >colonies were set up to make money for those that invested in them. Except >for the Spanish. >YMOS >Ole # 718 >---------- > >From: "larry sherman" > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 > >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 8:08 PM > > > > >The gun and horse are the tools that allowed us a foothold on this >country. > >Without them we would'nt be here. > > > > > >>From: "Ole B. Jensen" > >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 > >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:59:48 -0600 > >> > >>Larry, > >>I was always under the impresion that what desemated the Indian society >was > >>Disease? not Black Powder Weapons and the Horse. It also seams to me >that > >>the tribes were so bussy fighting and killing each other that it was >easy > >>for europeans to devide and subjegate the tribes, one by one. If the >Indian > >>tribes had posesion of black powder weapons and the horse, the killing >of > >>each other would have made the hundred years war in Europe look like a > >>church social. Some of the tribes discribed by George Catlin were > >>practicing > >>Human Sacrafice into the 1830's and now there is a theory that the >Anestazi > >>may have practiced Canabalism, no wonder some of them built there homes >on > >>clifs. OK now how is that for a discusion thread? > >>YMOS > >>Ole # 718 > >>---------- > >> >From: "larry sherman" > >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 > >> >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 6:38 PM > >> > > >> > >> > > >> >. If they had been posessors of the > >> >>horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP > >> >>Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. >I > >> >>remain... > >> >> > >> >>YMOS > >> >>Capt. Lahti' > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the > >>black > >> >powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were > >>able > >> >to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could > >>throw > >> >more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their >weapons. I > >> >can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one > >> >bullet. > >> > > >> >Respectfully Larry Sherman > >> > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > >> > > >> >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >> >http://profiles.msn.com. > >> > > >> > > >> >---------------------- > >> >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > >> > >>---------------------- > >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry sherman" Subject: MtMan-List: happy subscrber Date: 21 Sep 2000 03:00:25 GMT I msut thank everyone who has been using this list today. When I got home this afternoon from learning all this new computer, high-teck crap I had 82 new e-mails most from this list, and all were of vallue, with the exception of that one that kept repeating itself over and over again (I don't think your system is quite fixed). respectfully Larry Sherman _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 21 Sep 2000 03:21:46 GMT from a previous post.....The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the blackpowder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were able to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could throw more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one bullet. ???I don't have alot of experience with other regional histories but here in Texas settlements were often stopped or pushed back not because of the Indians superior firepower but because of their superior horsemanship...It was just a coincidence(or was it divine intervention?) that revolving firearms came into popular use here around the same time the Anglo settlers learned to refine their equestrian skills which when combined was the key to populating and holding settlements on the frontiers...So as to settlements being stopped by firepower, that wasn't the only factor and not a major one at that...In regards to the qoute about Native firepower versus Anglo firepower Josiah Gregg noted this in Commerce on the Prairies in the mid forties...anybody have any help with the sword question? Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) Date: 20 Sep 2000 22:23:26 -0600 Sorry guys, I wrote one line which I should clarify, the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the rendezvous too, so there were actually four that went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two). I tend to treat this form of communication different than when I put out info for other things, like articles, rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll try to proof read and think more in depth on things like this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys didn't catch it and rouse me about it. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 20 Sep 2000 22:12:32 -0600 We carry a leather rejuvenator for old leather. late tonight though and will have to get back to you, off to Ft Union tomorrow, very early joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women in the fur trade (was: how about this for a Date: 20 Sep 2000 22:14:34 -0600 Lee Newbill wrote: >Mike... if you throw in the Nor'Westers in the Oregon territory, the list >expands a bit more with a white woman (english barmaid) ..... I forget her >name, in 1813, That would be Jane Barnes. Also, Jane Beaver (Mrs. Herbert Beaver), yet another missionary's wife, at Fort Vancouver (if I recall correctly!) >not to mention the many Metis of various mixtures. Such as Dr. John McLoughlin's wife, Marguerite Wadin MacKay, who had a very illustrious fur trade pedigree: her father, Jean-Etienne Wadin, was the Swiss fur trader allegedly murdered by American Peter Pond. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: RE: MtMan-List: swords in the furtrade? Date: 20 Sep 2000 22:15:04 -0600 "scott mcmahon" wrote: >what about the swords? I see them listed on trade lists, were they just used for >Indian goods or were they possibly cut down to make "fancy" knives? Does >anyone have an answer in regards to this? Well, there were some swords in the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821. They were mostly cutlasses and hangers, and seem to have been considered 'last ditch' defensive weapons--a little bit handier and more intimidating than a bayonet, perhaps? In fact, the only time I recall someone actually being injured by a sword is when a NWCo. clerk hit his country wife with a cutlass; she lived. I haven't seen any swords on trade lists of my period, but I doubt that a native would take a very impressive-looking sword and whittle it down to something less scary.. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) Date: 20 Sep 2000 23:27:17 -0500 Mike What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a = rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that = many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following = rendezvous: 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark Mrs P. B. Littlejohn Mrs Alvin T. Smith 1839: Mrs John S Griffith Mrs Asahel Munger 1838 Mrs. W H Gray Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker) Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells) Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith) 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman) Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding) Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and if = that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their own = hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on diaries = of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly accepted as = factual. I would be very interested in your comments. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM > Sorry guys, > I wrote one line which I should clarify, > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two). > I tend to treat this form of communication different > than when I put out info for other things, like articles, > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys > didn't catch it and rouse me about it. > mike. >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 22 Sep 2000 22:36:33 -0400 lynda--- same old tap tap tap---how you doing any new projects going----I got a walk about stick about finished for the brother---bead weaving it and have about 4 " done so far need to get it done befor i go to hunt to suprise him---he has a hint i am making a walk about stick for him---- BTW I still have your unborn buffilo skin here---should send it to you and then let the tradeing begin----nuff said----you'll love it--- YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 23 Sep 2000 09:07:00 -0400 lynda--- same old tap tap tap---how you doing any new projects going----I got a walk about stick about finished for the brother---bead weaving it and have about 4 " done so far need to get it done befor i go to hunt to suprise him---he has a hint i am making a walk about stick for him---- BTW I still have your unborn buffilo skin here---should send it to you and then let the tradeing begin----nuff said----you'll love it--- YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) Date: 21 Sep 2000 09:21:19 -0600 Lanney, I recently picked up a copy of Clifford Drury's two books, "The Mountains We Have Crossed" and "Where Wagons Could Go" for my library. (He has put out one other which I am trying to find.) They are the letters and dairies of these women. Very little is known of the ladies you mention who went west in 1840, even their first names. There are references (I think two very short mentions), one that they were going west with the caravans and one that they picked up their guide and left) for that year's rendezvous, but probably only used it as a stopping place. The missioniaries didn't like the scene they found there and usually once they make connections to go further westward, did. Mr. Gowans is a well respected writer and I bow to him. But, I don't feel that they were a major part of the scene that year, by this time (even if it was the smallest and last of the renedzvous), the trappers and company men had found that the shine had worn off these "white women". The couples going west for saving the savages had only one thing on their minds and beside being nice to who ever helped them, basicly stayed to themselves. In fact, they chalked up to divine providience helping them through many trials- not to how others had helped them or the many other people who went through the same thing and lived. I think the last gathering lasted what- three or four days? And besides being a resting place, wasn't that big of deal to them or to me that they showed up there. This may sound very anti-christian, my pounding of them. But even as a christian today, I would find being around them for any length of time laborious. They were a different stripe, and even though I belong to the same church (Presbyterian) as the majority of them, I don't think I would like them. Probably like the rest of you, these green horns (and they were!) would only receive enough notice to keep them from injuring themselves or anyone around them and that would be about it. They were a pain in the neck to the caravans by not wanting to travel on the Sabbath, didn't want stand guard at night (in fact, they paid others to do it), had trouble with packing and un packing every day and had to hire men to do it for them all the way west. Sorry for rambling. I do respect Mr. Gowans and others like him. The missionaries in 1840 did make to the rendzvous, but they camped away from the main gathering and didn't stay long. So my opinion is that they don't merit mention on the list. But, just my opinion. mike. Ratcliff wrote: > Mike > What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following rendezvous: > 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark > Mrs P. B. Littlejohn > Mrs Alvin T. Smith > 1839: Mrs John S Griffith > Mrs Asahel Munger > 1838 Mrs. W H Gray > Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker) > Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells) > Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith) > 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman) > Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding) > Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and if that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their own hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on diaries of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly accepted as factual. I would be very interested in your comments. > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Moore" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) > > > Sorry guys, > > I wrote one line which I should clarify, > > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the > > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that > > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two). > > I tend to treat this form of communication different > > than when I put out info for other things, like articles, > > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll > > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like > > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys > > didn't catch it and rouse me about it. > > mike. > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS Date: 21 Sep 2000 10:29:04 -0400 Dave, Do you know if there is solid documentation for this method? I have heard of a similar method by individual owners where they would urinate on the metal instead of using salt, but I have still not been able to document it. I have been told by more than one knowledgable person that it was documented to the mid eighteenth century, but I still haven't found it. Thanks, Dennis > One of the earliest, most used, and least mentioned methods of metal > finishing on these early firearms was salt. It works quickly, imparts the > required finish to the metal, and is durable. > > You swab a salt solution on the metal, let it rust, and card it off. An > asphaltum or linseed oil coating was often used to kill the action ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS Date: 21 Sep 2000 11:06:22 EDT > Do you know if there is solid documentation for this method? I have > heard of a similar method by individual owners where they would > urinate on the metal instead of using salt, Dennis, Angier's book document's it to very early times. I have also seen it elsewhere, but a senior moment prevents immediate recollection. When it comes to me, I will post it. It may have been in a book I have about Eli Whitney' gun manufacturing techniques. Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mystic symbols Date: 21 Sep 2000 09:35:21 -0700 (PDT) --- ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > I will attache picture of symbols crooked heart, > X-cross and eight-tips > star. > > Pavel, > > There is nothing mystic about the inlay decorations. > They evolved from the > folklore of the Pennsylvania gunmakers of the US. Ho the list !!! Did I miss something,or have we not answered Pavel's question ???? I thought she ask about these symbols on early European arms(pre -American) Was the earliest arms guns made in America and sent to Europe? Or did the Pennsylvanian gunmakers just bring these "designs" with them as they either was trained in Europe,or by European makers?? I thought she stated they were on arms "pre-dating" the American arms.(At least thats the way I read her) HOW ABOUT IT PEGGY ???? $00.02 grn ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan Sudman" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: how's this for a subject? Date: 21 Sep 2000 19:40:31 GMT Mr. Mike Moore made an interesting point: Narcissa Whitman and Eliza Spaulding were "out west" before 1841. To expand on that point a little: the first "white" people out west were not Americans, but Spanish and French. The Spanish explored much of the Southwest, including California, and in fact established a permanint settlement there. Some of their expeditions into North America included women as well as men. Two of the first three permanint (i.e. in continual use) settlements (specifically second and third) were "out west" - French settlement Quabec (probably spelled wrong) and Spanish Santa Fe (which I refered to earlier). This was all quite a bit before the 1840's. Hope this helps. Thanks, Ethan Sudman _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) Date: 21 Sep 2000 20:17:37 -0500 Mike I can concur with your position, in that most of the missionary women = most likely took little or no real part of the rendezvous. The little = reading I have done on the subject seems to indicate that Narcissa = Whitman was very friendly and outgoing. Little is said about the = others, except that some were scandalized by what they saw. We can't = withhold our admiration of their grit. Even in the context of a = "closed" group heading west for the purpose of supporting their = husbands' job of saving souls, these women had enough bark on to make = journey that few enough modern men would dare make. YMOS Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 10:21 AM > Lanney, > I recently picked up a copy of Clifford Drury's two books, "The = Mountains We > Have Crossed" and "Where Wagons Could Go" for my library. (He has put = out one > other which I am trying to find.) They are the letters and dairies of = these women. > Very little is known of the ladies you mention who went west in 1840, = even their > first names. There are references (I think two very short mentions), = one that they > were going west with the caravans and one that they picked up their = guide and left) > for that year's rendezvous, but probably only used it as a stopping = place. The missioniaries > didn't like the scene they found there and usually once they make = connections to go > further westward, did. Mr. Gowans is a well respected writer and I bow = to him. But, > I don't feel that they were a major part of the scene that year, by = this time (even > if it was the smallest and last of the renedzvous), the trappers and = company men > had found that the shine had worn off these "white women". The couples = going > west for saving the savages had only one thing on their minds and = beside being nice > to who ever helped them, basicly stayed to themselves. In fact, they = chalked > up to divine providience helping them through many trials- not to how = others had > helped them or the many other people who went through the same thing = and lived. > I think the last gathering lasted what- three or four days? And = besides being a resting > place, wasn't that big of deal to them or to me that they showed up = there. > This may sound very anti-christian, my pounding of them. But even = as a christian > today, I would find being around them for any length of time = laborious. They were > a different stripe, and even though I belong to the same church = (Presbyterian) as > the majority of them, I don't think I would like them. Probably like = the rest of you, > these green horns (and they were!) would only receive enough notice to = keep them from > injuring themselves or anyone around them and that would be about it. = They were a pain > in the neck to the caravans by not wanting to travel on the Sabbath, = didn't want stand > guard at night (in fact, they paid others to do it), had trouble with = packing and un packing > every day and had to hire men to do it for them all the way west. > Sorry for rambling. I do respect Mr. Gowans and others like him. = The missionaries > in 1840 did make to the rendzvous, but they camped away from the main = gathering and > didn't stay long. So my opinion is that they don't merit mention on = the list. But, just my > opinion. > mike. >=20 > Ratcliff wrote: >=20 > > Mike > > What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a = rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that = many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following = rendezvous: > > 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark > > Mrs P. B. Littlejohn > > Mrs Alvin T. Smith > > 1839: Mrs John S Griffith > > Mrs Asahel Munger > > 1838 Mrs. W H Gray > > Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker) > > Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells) > > Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith) > > 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman) > > Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding) > > Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and = if that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their = own hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on = diaries of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly = accepted as factual. I would be very interested in your comments. > > YMOS > > Lanney Ratcliff > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mike Moore" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) > > > > > Sorry guys, > > > I wrote one line which I should clarify, > > > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the > > > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that > > > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two). > > > I tend to treat this form of communication different > > > than when I put out info for other things, like articles, > > > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll > > > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like > > > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys > > > didn't catch it and rouse me about it. > > > mike. > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) Date: 21 Sep 2000 22:31:46 -0600 Lanney, I agree. Today, we boast about a week long horse ride or a canoe trip that lasts 10 days, but it would be hard to match 2 1/2 or 3 months riding side saddle, living in leaky tents and having diarrhia from buffalo country clear to Oregon! mike. Ratcliff wrote: > Mike > I can concur with your position, in that most of the missionary women most likely took little or no real part of the rendezvous. The little reading I have done on the subject seems to indicate that Narcissa Whitman was very friendly and outgoing. Little is said about the others, except that some were scandalized by what they saw. We can't withhold our admiration of their grit. Even in the context of a "closed" group heading west for the purpose of supporting their husbands' job of saving souls, these women had enough bark on to make journey that few enough modern men would dare make. > YMOS > Lanney > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Moore" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 10:21 AM > Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) > > > Lanney, > > I recently picked up a copy of Clifford Drury's two books, "The Mountains We > > Have Crossed" and "Where Wagons Could Go" for my library. (He has put out one > > other which I am trying to find.) They are the letters and dairies of these women. > > Very little is known of the ladies you mention who went west in 1840, even their > > first names. There are references (I think two very short mentions), one that they > > were going west with the caravans and one that they picked up their guide and left) > > for that year's rendezvous, but probably only used it as a stopping place. The missioniaries > > didn't like the scene they found there and usually once they make connections to go > > further westward, did. Mr. Gowans is a well respected writer and I bow to him. But, > > I don't feel that they were a major part of the scene that year, by this time (even > > if it was the smallest and last of the renedzvous), the trappers and company men > > had found that the shine had worn off these "white women". The couples going > > west for saving the savages had only one thing on their minds and beside being nice > > to who ever helped them, basicly stayed to themselves. In fact, they chalked > > up to divine providience helping them through many trials- not to how others had > > helped them or the many other people who went through the same thing and lived. > > I think the last gathering lasted what- three or four days? And besides being a resting > > place, wasn't that big of deal to them or to me that they showed up there. > > This may sound very anti-christian, my pounding of them. But even as a christian > > today, I would find being around them for any length of time laborious. They were > > a different stripe, and even though I belong to the same church (Presbyterian) as > > the majority of them, I don't think I would like them. Probably like the rest of you, > > these green horns (and they were!) would only receive enough notice to keep them from > > injuring themselves or anyone around them and that would be about it. They were a pain > > in the neck to the caravans by not wanting to travel on the Sabbath, didn't want stand > > guard at night (in fact, they paid others to do it), had trouble with packing and un packing > > every day and had to hire men to do it for them all the way west. > > Sorry for rambling. I do respect Mr. Gowans and others like him. The missionaries > > in 1840 did make to the rendzvous, but they camped away from the main gathering and > > didn't stay long. So my opinion is that they don't merit mention on the list. But, just my > > opinion. > > mike. > > > > Ratcliff wrote: > > > > > Mike > > > What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following rendezvous: > > > 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark > > > Mrs P. B. Littlejohn > > > Mrs Alvin T. Smith > > > 1839: Mrs John S Griffith > > > Mrs Asahel Munger > > > 1838 Mrs. W H Gray > > > Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker) > > > Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells) > > > Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith) > > > 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman) > > > Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding) > > > Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and if that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their own hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on diaries of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly accepted as factual. I would be very interested in your comments. > > > YMOS > > > Lanney Ratcliff > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Mike Moore" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM > > > Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) > > > > > > > Sorry guys, > > > > I wrote one line which I should clarify, > > > > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the > > > > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that > > > > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two). > > > > I tend to treat this form of communication different > > > > than when I put out info for other things, like articles, > > > > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll > > > > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like > > > > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys > > > > didn't catch it and rouse me about it. > > > > mike. > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rhamilton@pagedigital.com Subject: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 22 Sep 2000 17:46:20 -0600 I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore, but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any information they can share on this subject? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 22 Sep 2000 17:34:37 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 4:46 PM > I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the > waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore, > but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any > information they can share on this subject? I will go so far as to say that this was more a fashion of the French Voyagure than the Mountain Man. As much as we can depend on field sketches of artists like Miller, he does not show this fashion amongst Mountain Men. Some one out there know different? I believe that the tendency to see such worn and done at modern Rendezvous is part modern fashion (wanting to look like what some people think a mountain man looked like) and partly to hold up the lower legs of leather pants made form commercial leather which stretches much more than brain tan (which is more likely what was being used originally). Respectfully, Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 22 Sep 2000 21:22:13 EDT > I will go so far as to say that this was more a fashion of the French > Voyagure than the Mountain Man. > Some one out there know different? Capt, We discussed this at some length before you joined the list. Depend on how you classify "Mountain Man." By and large, the attendees of the Rendezvous were French and Indian, not white men. They too, were displaced from back East and worked the western fur trade. In addition, many Metis made their way down from Canada and co-existed in the same vicinities, especially during their buffalo hunts. A google.com search on "assumption sash" would probably yield the information sought. Books on finger weaving will yield further info. Assumption sashes later replaced by machine woven English sashes as trade goods. >As much as we can depend on field sketches > of artists like Miller, he does not show this fashion amongst Mountain Men. More correctly, he doesn't show it amongst "white" Mountain Men, whom he glorified through his paintings. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 22 Sep 2000 18:43:40 -0700 > More correctly, he doesn't show it amongst "white" Mountain Men, whom he > glorified through his paintings. Dave, Point well taken. Since most invision themselves as the "classic" mountain man, I presumed the "glorified" mountain man of millers paintings not the vast majority of participants in that era who were not American but as you say. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: sashes Date: 22 Sep 2000 20:07:28 -0700 since somebody brought it up, I am in possession of a old hard wool yarn, loom woven sash of what appears to be Navajo [or some southwestern tribe] in origin can anybody tell me how far back loom woven sashes go. or in other words would it be period correct to wear if someone's persona was new Mexican influenced? thanks; Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 22 Sep 2000 21:27:30 -0600 At 05:46 PM 09/22/2000 -0600, you wrote: >I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the >waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore, >but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any >information they can share on this subject? None of the journals of Ferris, Russell, Clymer make any mention of sashes. Nor do any other compilations by Berry, Utley and others. My guess is American trappers didn't use them, as they are neither described or painted by folks that were there. Allen in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 23 Sep 2000 02:45:32 EDT In a message dated 9/22/00 8:25:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, allenhall@srv.net writes: > I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the > >waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore, > >but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any > >information they can share on this subject? I believe these were worn mainly by the French Canadien voyageurs. They a quite common with our re-enactors at Fort Vancouver. I have heard that the garters helped to strengthen the legs, and the voyagers certainly needed strong legs. Tom Laidlaw, web coordinator for OCTA's On-line Bookstore ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sashes garters and belts Date: 23 Sep 2000 07:55:03 -0600 Tom, I have no evidence but I have understood that sashes were used in place of a belt in the 18th century and that garters were tied below the knee to hold up socks!. There were many styles of garters, from string to litle leather belts, they were used to keep your socks as elastic had not been invented. The sash was used by the military till late in the 19th century and now has morfed itself and is called a cumberbun. A rope to hold up your pants is a sash, they could be one of those everyday things that no one notices. I think that Mountain Men of the 1830's didn't wear socks so they didn't need garters and they used there knife belt to hold up there pants, to make this more confusing I think that braces (suspenders) came into use in the 1830's. What I am saying is this, I don't know!. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: sashes >Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000, 9:07 PM > >since somebody brought it up, I am in possession of a old hard wool yarn, >loom woven sash of what appears to be Navajo [or some southwestern tribe] in >origin can anybody tell me how far back loom woven sashes go. or in other >words would it be period correct to wear if someone's persona was new >Mexican influenced? >thanks; Tom > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sashes garters and belts Date: 23 Sep 2000 09:29:44 -0700 What I am saying is this, I don't > know!. > > YMOS > Ole # 718 Vell Ole, Old friend, dat makes two of us. I think I have seen references to socks being sent to "The Mountains" and of mtn Men making such so........I don't know eather for sure. Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Poorboy" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 23 Sep 2000 10:35:33 -0700 Klahowya My Friends, Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast my two cents before the swine. During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued not easily obtained commodity. I believe research shows that woven straps and belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods. This I believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and that good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute was available. Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian. In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On line here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather. I did find notations for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate leather or other), and some entries for assorted buckles. It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade lists, and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general reference, but subject to artistic license. Considering the known information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps over leather during the EL/F&I period). Adding in the known prominence of woven straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian. The general lack of documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period. The studies that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in the RMR period were of mixed blood. And my opinion that shoes, horse tack, and harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather, especially when a viable woven alternative was available. I therefore assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the American RMR period. Sashes were probably less common, but still present. One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, not finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from it. And the list of arguments could go on.... I leave this as fodder before the storm..... Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am always open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but you can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two. Have at it boys...YMOS PoorBoy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 23 Sep 2000 17:07:29 -0600 Poorboy, Page 143 intitled "Indian Hospitality" of Alfred Jacob Miller's field drawings is showm a cross legged traper seated with his back to the artist. The traper has a knife shoved between his back and the Sash or belt? it is hard to make out what it is, however in other drawings it clearly indicates a belt. there is also a drawing showing the Booshway geting ready for a Buffalo hunt that he looks as if he is wearing garters. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Poorboy" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) >Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000, 11:35 AM > >Klahowya My Friends, > >Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast my >two cents before the swine. >During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky Mountain >Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued not >easily obtained commodity. I believe research shows that woven straps and >belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods. This I >believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and that >good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute was >available. Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American >frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian. >In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On line >here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather. I did find notations >for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate leather >or other), and some entries for assorted buckles. >It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade lists, >and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general >reference, but subject to artistic license. Considering the known >information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps over >leather during the EL/F&I period). Adding in the known prominence of woven >straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian. The general lack of >documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period. The studies >that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in the >RMR period were of mixed blood. And my opinion that shoes, horse tack, and >harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather, >especially when a viable woven alternative was available. I therefore >assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the >American RMR period. Sashes were probably less common, but still present. >One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, not >finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from it. >And the list of arguments could go on.... > >I leave this as fodder before the storm.....sayings anyway...VBG> Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am always >open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but you >can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two. >Have at it boys...YMOS >PoorBoy > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 23 Sep 2000 19:06:39 -0700 Po Boy & Capt. Lahti, This discussion on sashes is a good one. Personally, I've never been able to wear a sash. Can't seen to make them work for me, being a gentleman of portly posture. I do wear hand woven garters though. They do a good job keeping my leggins up. Even though my leggins are braintan they seem to stretch quite a bit when they get wet. Don't know exactly how correct they are for a Rocky Mountain Fur Trapper, but it seems to me, they would have been used there, given the number of Eastern Indians, French, etc who were there. For me, it makes since that a trapper or hunter would have adopted such a item if it suited his needs. The leather belt isssue is one that is interesting. Personally, I think the 4" wide belts so often seen at rendezvous are not right. That's just my opinion. There are no documents that I have seen that show where belts were taken for trade. I think it is most likely, they used the leather that was available locally for belts. Probably buffalo was most often used. I think sometimes we have to fill in the blanks left by documentation with a common sense approach to solving problems. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 23 Sep 2000 17:23:44 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 7:06 PM > Po Boy & Capt. Lahti, > This discussion on sashes is a good one. Personally, I've never been able > to wear a sash. Can't seen to make them work for me, being a gentleman of > portly posture. Brer' Pendleton, Same for me. I have a couple real nice had woven sashes, each bigger than the last. I finally had one made that would go around twice (don't think that one didn't cost a pretty penny!) but haven't worn it all that much. I have a wide belt but I agree that they were probably quit narrow whether they were of local brain tan, local pit tan (quit a bit of that went on as a cottage industry) or shipped in as a commercial product. How many leather belts are you going to go through in a few years in the mountains? It's not as though they wear out like shoe leather. I think leather belts were worn as often as sashes in the Moutains and as far as garters, they may have been woven, quilled brain tan, or leather with a buckle or a simple leather thong/whang. Hate to see those modern made ones of knitting yarn and day glow pink, red, green etc. though. Surely the sash and garter making folks could come up with more traditional/period Likely correct colors!? I wear leather straps with buckles with my leggens when I wear them over breeches and when I am "working" in them but when I want to style I wear quilled ties make by Suzie Rider. Guess I wear a wide belt so I can see it. A narrow one would disappear in the folds! Same with a narrow sash or a single wrap sash. I still think sashes and such were more of a long hunter fashion and perhaps more of a modern ideal than actual period accutrament. Still, it's like you say, much speculation. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: sash and garters Date: 23 Sep 2000 21:01:05 MDT need to throw the metis side into the pot. first the garter can be used to tie around leather or cloth legs to keep them from flapping and making alot of noise and getting in the way, all so to add a little color. a lot of the sashs were make by metis women for the fur trade,a lot of the women were from assumption can. thus the name assumption sash.as first the sash was also finger woven in different colors and patterns for the trade. but soon the metis took the sash as a metis symbol. red with other colors forming a arrow design ,about 1700's or befor, to this day that sash is worn as a metis symbol. the sash was made to go around twice and ty on the left side.there are many use's for the sash by men and women. men,has a weight belt to hold guts in while your were carring heavy loads,has catch belt for livestock,extra what ever that sash would do. women ,carry babys,extra thread ,first aid binding,ect. and for a short time the sash was made longer so you could wrap around a lot of times so a small tiped arrow could not be shot into your gut if you pissed someone off in a trade.since the softest part of animal or man was the target with arrows.all so it seem to of made wide,if you didn't like wide then just wrap narrow. all so style the and now is to spreed wide. also how you tied the sash would tell if you are buffalo metis,boat,trader. the sash was worn past the fur trade era, cowboys etc. the sash is a large part of the metis cuture and i could cover a lot of paper but, lets us just say the metis were called childern of the fur trade,the sash covers into the buffalo metis of montana. late 1800,s. just a belt! a start."" hiverant metis box31222 billings,mt59101 cavalier de poney _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: white women and women in fure trd. Date: 23 Sep 2000 21:56:19 MDT i'm s little unsure of the early white women in fur trade, in new france there are women from euro. that were into the metis ranks early you might check some of metis site s on enternet for date and names.the fur companys find out that the men stayed on one job longer if women were there to keep the main camp going. hudson bay would used the metis camps for looking for new trade grounds, thy had their women and familys along at camp. in many familys the main camp was thier home so tradeing and hunting was life stlye. good bussss on the hudson part. later for metis freetrader camps. cavalier de poney... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry sherman" Subject: MtMan-List: rifle made of money Date: 24 Sep 2000 06:35:08 GMT I know this is a black powder only page, but I have to write this anyway. I recieved an e-mail from a guy who wanted to know how much his winchester model 92, that was made in 1884 was worth. I did the research and replied with the answear $600-$7000. These are the prices I found, I bet that fellow is very happy to own that gun. The moral of the story, if you don't know something about the gun you own ask somebody who does, you might end up being a happy fellow yourself. Larry J Sherman _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 00:00:08 -0700 Interesting topic! Did American Trappers of white English/Celtic stock use sashes and garters? Probably not as a rule. If we accept that woven cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place of tanned belt leather because they were cheaper and more easily attained, this does not mean that this practice carried over into the Rocky Mountains. First of all, sashes were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the East, but this material would be non-existent in the mountains. Second, if the rendezvous lists do not mention belt leather, where does it mention woven sashes or wool thread to make same? I submit that brain tanned leather was the most easily attainable "fabric" in the Rockies. It replaced the cloth garments that rotted in the elements. I think it's safe to assume this practice extended to the replacement of cloth sashes. The rendezvous lists support this. Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse tack made it to the Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult to make. A leather belt is the simplest thing to make. All you need is a sharp knife, awl, needle and thread...and, of course, a buckle. And buckles were available from the traders that came to rendezvous. They didn't pack in what didn't sell. Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went on leather belts. Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked inside them. And the famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine Clement, clearly shows he preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven sash to hold his percussion pistol. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:35 AM > Klahowya My Friends, > > Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast my > two cents before the swine. > During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky Mountain > Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued not > easily obtained commodity. I believe research shows that woven straps and > belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods. This I > believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and that > good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute was > available. Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American > frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian. > In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On line > here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather. I did find notations > for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate leather > or other), and some entries for assorted buckles. > It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade lists, > and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general > reference, but subject to artistic license. Considering the known > information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps over > leather during the EL/F&I period). Adding in the known prominence of woven > straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian. The general lack of > documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period. The studies > that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in the > RMR period were of mixed blood. And my opinion that shoes, horse tack, and > harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather, > especially when a viable woven alternative was available. I therefore > assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the > American RMR period. Sashes were probably less common, but still present. > One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, not > finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from it. > And the list of arguments could go on.... > > I leave this as fodder before the storm..... sayings anyway...VBG> Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am always > open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but you > can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two. > Have at it boys...YMOS > PoorBoy > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 22:35:40 +1200 The early settlers,farmers ,bushmen, hunters, etc of both Australia and New Zealand ,used string or leather ties around their trouser legs , just above the Knee, these were to stop the voluminous straight trouser legs of the time from flopping around and getting in the way, the ties were known as Bowyangs,don't ask me why, not really Mtn Man stuff but I thought you might be interested. YMOS Cutfinger Friendships made,Problems shared Campfires across the wilderness. Auckland, New Zealand ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 07:02:47 -0400 As to sashes, I have the Granddaddy of 'em... It is over 8" wide and near 20' long!.. CJ Wilde made it . It is a historical copy from a museum in Canada. It takes either two people to wrap it (one holding the end while you wrap in it) or you tie it off to a sapling and wrap yourself. When wrapped properly it gives FANTASTIC back support while hauling loads, reduces back fatigue when canoeing any distance, is warm in the Winter & makes a great pillow! I get some grief from Brothers when I put it on sometimes.. Most want to "spin" me like a top, but the bothering dies off when folks see how well this item works when used as it was meant to be.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 08:37:22 -0500 Dennis That must be a great sash. Considering its size and maker, I bet you = could have bought a mini-van for the price it must have set you back. YF&B Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 6:02 AM > As to sashes, I have the Granddaddy of 'em... It is over 8" wide and = near > 20' long!.. CJ Wilde made it . > It is a historical copy from a museum in Canada. It takes either two > people to wrap it (one holding the end while you wrap in it) or you = tie it > off to a sapling and wrap yourself. When wrapped properly it gives = FANTASTIC > back support while hauling loads, reduces back fatigue when canoeing = any > distance, is warm in the Winter & makes a great pillow! I get some = grief > from Brothers when I put it on sometimes.. Most want to "spin" me like = a > top, but the bothering dies off when folks see how well this item = works when > used as it was meant to be.. > D >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 09:05:30 -0700 Dennis, He just won't give it up, will he ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- Dennis That must be a great sash. Considering its size and maker, I bet you could have bought a mini-van for the price it must have set you back. YF&B Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 6:02 AM > As to sashes, I have the Granddaddy of 'em... It is over 8" wide and near > 20' long!.. CJ Wilde made it . > It is a historical copy from a museum in Canada. It takes either two > people to wrap it (one holding the end while you wrap in it) or you tie it > off to a sapling and wrap yourself. When wrapped properly it gives FANTASTIC > back support while hauling loads, reduces back fatigue when canoeing any > distance, is warm in the Winter & makes a great pillow! I get some grief > from Brothers when I put it on sometimes.. Most want to "spin" me like a > top, but the bothering dies off when folks see how well this item works when > used as it was meant to be.. > D > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 09:16:33 -0700 Excellent points Brother Huber, but would spun wool not have been available at the various forts ? They raised a variety livestock, but I can't remember if they raised sheep. Would the trappers who ventured over into your part of the world have had access to spun wool products ? I don't mean to be going to extremes just to justify something, but it doesn't seem to be much of a stretch. What are your thoughts ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- Interesting topic! Did American Trappers of white English/Celtic stock use sashes and garters? Probably not as a rule. If we accept that woven cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place of tanned belt leather because they were cheaper and more easily attained, this does not mean that this practice carried over into the Rocky Mountains. First of all, sashes were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the East, but this material would be non-existent in the mountains. Second, if the rendezvous lists do not mention belt leather, where does it mention woven sashes or wool thread to make same? I submit that brain tanned leather was the most easily attainable "fabric" in the Rockies. It replaced the cloth garments that rotted in the elements. I think it's safe to assume this practice extended to the replacement of cloth sashes. The rendezvous lists support this. Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse tack made it to the Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult to make. A leather belt is the simplest thing to make. All you need is a sharp knife, awl, needle and thread...and, of course, a buckle. And buckles were available from the traders that came to rendezvous. They didn't pack in what didn't sell. Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went on leather belts. Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked inside them. And the famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine Clement, clearly shows he preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven sash to hold his percussion pistol. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:35 AM > Klahowya My Friends, > > Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast my > two cents before the swine. > During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky Mountain > Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued not > easily obtained commodity. I believe research shows that woven straps and > belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods. This I > believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and that > good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute was > available. Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American > frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian. > In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On line > here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather. I did find notations > for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate leather > or other), and some entries for assorted buckles. > It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade lists, > and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general > reference, but subject to artistic license. Considering the known > information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps over > leather during the EL/F&I period). Adding in the known prominence of woven > straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian. The general lack of > documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period. The studies > that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in the > RMR period were of mixed blood. And my opinion that shoes, horse tack, and > harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather, > especially when a viable woven alternative was available. I therefore > assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the > American RMR period. Sashes were probably less common, but still present. > One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, not > finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from it. > And the list of arguments could go on.... > > I leave this as fodder before the storm..... sayings anyway...VBG> Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am always > open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but you > can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two. > Have at it boys...YMOS > PoorBoy > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 10:01:31 -0400 Damn near, Lanney.. Damned near... D Next time, it'll have a cupholder.. "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 10:02:29 -0400 Larry, You KNOW how he can be... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (short) Date: 24 Sep 2000 08:53:54 -0600 Gentelmen and Ladies, Belt's,/Harness leather? they are the same, belts were probably made from harness leather and the buckels could have been harness buckles!. Sashes can be made from other things wrather than wool, such as Hemp. What about rifle slings? there are rifles shown hanging over the shoulder, what are they made from, could be leather, brain tan, sashe type material, hemp or cotton weebing. What about silk scarves, made from? Silk worms in the rockies? NO, trade goods. The amount of trade goods and the locality of trading posts/forts/stockades made the avalibility of such items much more avalible then we think. One thing I keep thinking is that we only see the tip of the ice berg! when we look at trade lists and drawings, there was much more than that. there were also many players in this period of time. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Larry Huber" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) >Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000, 1:00 AM > >Interesting topic! Did American Trappers of white English/Celtic stock use >sashes and garters? Probably not as a rule. If we accept that woven >cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place of tanned belt leather >because they were cheaper and more easily attained, this does not mean that >this practice carried over into the Rocky Mountains. First of all, sashes >were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the East, but this material >would be non-existent in the mountains. Second, if the rendezvous lists do >not mention belt leather, where does it mention woven sashes or wool thread >to make same? I submit that brain tanned leather was the most easily >attainable "fabric" in the Rockies. It replaced the cloth garments that >rotted in the elements. I think it's safe to assume this practice extended >to the replacement of cloth sashes. The rendezvous lists support this. >Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse tack made it to the >Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult to make. A leather belt >is the simplest thing to make. All you need is a sharp knife, awl, needle >and thread...and, of course, a buckle. And buckles were available from the >traders that came to rendezvous. They didn't pack in what didn't sell. >Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went on leather belts. >Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked inside them. And the >famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine Clement, clearly shows he >preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven sash to hold his >percussion pistol. > >Larry Huber > >> >> > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Poorboy" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 08:30:06 -0700 Klahowya My Friends, I must say excellent discussion. Let me also preface my comments by explaining that I am in the middle of moving my family to a new home. I only get to check my magic box once a day and I apologize if my posts seem a bit long, but I am spending all day thinking on these discussions and have to tie all my thoughts into each post. Again, excellent discussion, and everyone that has commented has raised valid issues. Even Lanney's comments on the cost of a good hand woven sash... Now, to address a few of the issues discussed. Ole, Larry Pendleton, The good Capt., and Larry Huber all touched on the fact that leather belts probably went West with the trappers and that belts don't wear out like most other leather goods. I agree. But, I must still ask how common were the belts in the East. Also I agree that a man who was used to wearing a leather belt rather than a sash, would have looked to replace his belt. And there is a list of replacement materials available ie: braintan, raw hide, worn saddle/stirrup leather, and even personal trades with the company men with the trade caravans who would be returning East. I would however assert that brain tan by itself would not hold up long under heavy use. By this I mean the weight of knives, pistols, hawks, and bags being thrust within it. Raw hide, in order to remain flexible would work better as a woven product. And saddle leather was too valued to be used before it was totally worn out. Larry Huber, questioned the availability of wool in the mountains to make sashes, and sashes and wool thread missing from trade lists. To this I can only add that wool material, as well as other types was shipped, that even in the East not all belts/straps/sashes were wool. many were hemp, linen, and other forms of cordage. I just realized I am getting long winded again... What I am trying to suggest here is that, belts and woven sashes/straps were probably both present in the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period. Leg ties were in common use throughout the world, even in Australia and New Zealand..thanks Cutfinger, and would have continued in the RM West. I do not think that the many brightly colored versions would be used in everyday work situations. Except in the cases of identity, like the Metis, or when it was all that was available. But again at rendezvous, if a fellow had a set of Sunday go to meetin duds, he would wear them. Like Capt. lahti's quilled leg ties. As to colors I once saw a museum display of over 500 trade blankets throughout time to present. Some of the well cared for originals were quite bright in there color schemes. Although I do not suggest day glo coloring is appropriate, I would suggest that the colors we see in originals today have faded drastically. The collector of the trade blanket display noted the desirability of the bright colors that the Indians could not produce in nature, but could be created at the woolen mills. This then circles back to the argument of should a historical re-enactor striving for accuracy use accouterments and tools that represent newly obtained goods, possibly only a few years old, or the worn antique looking stuff we see in museums. There is no doubt that the antique looking stuff is easier on our eyes today because it more closely approximates the original artifacts we see in museums, but is it really a correct representation of that day and time? YMOS PoorBoy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Poorboy" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (short) Date: 24 Sep 2000 08:35:51 -0700 Klahowya Ole, Well said, for every trade list we have viewed today there are probably a dozen that are lost to us forever. Also every fellow that outfitted himself and went to the Rockies, we will never know what he took with him originally, before he had to resupply later. Again, Well said. YMOS PoorBoy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 09:26:13 -0700 Dennis, Scott Smith , of Florida, wears one of those extra wide, extra long sash. I helped him put it on once by holding one end tightly while he wrapped himself up with it. It was interesting to see, and yes it supported his back very well. Also, I did have the urge to give a sharp yank, and spin him like a top. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 13:03:10 EDT In a message dated 9/24/00 8:22:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, poorboy@ieway.com writes: << accouterments and tools that represent newly obtained goods, possibly only a few years old, or the worn antique looking stuff we see in museums > Am I off base to believe that the reason the Trappers, et al went to Rendezvous was to replenish supplies with NEW GOODS? Why in the world would they trade hard-earned plews for older, aged, or used product, unless it was something very special (i.e. a gun or knife), or nothing else was available? IIRC, this list has presented many ref's for new clothing and equipage being obtained, shown-off, gambled away, etc as it was strutted 'round the Rendezvous. Almost all the things we use to reenact the period, from barrels to shirts to rifles could have been obtained new or reasonably new (transportation worn) at Rendezvous, no? And wouldn't that mean that the use of new items in our reenacting would be correct as well? Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 15:11:26 -0400 Hardtack Scott is the one that convinced me that I would like it.. He was right. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: MtMan-List: ibid? References Date: 24 Sep 2000 15:43:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DA_01C0263E.35A35BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Somebody please help me out. This may seem like a dumb question to y'all = but it has been driving me crazy. I have noticed in several historical = books I have read, that they list referances like "ibid 170". What on = earth is this refence? What does the "ibid" stand for? Are the numbers = page numbers? Thanks, in advance. YMOS Watchum Possum ------=_NextPart_000_00DA_01C0263E.35A35BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Somebody please help me = out. This may=20 seem like a dumb question to y'all but it has been driving me crazy. I = have=20 noticed in several historical books I have read, that they list = referances like=20 "ibid 170". What on earth is this refence? What does the "ibid" stand = for? Are=20 the numbers page numbers? Thanks, in advance.
 
YMOS
Watchum=20 Possum
------=_NextPart_000_00DA_01C0263E.35A35BA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ibid? References Date: 24 Sep 2000 14:12:12 -0700 IBID is like ditto, means refer to previous reference ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: ibid? References Date: 24 Sep 2000 16:20:06 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C02643.4D01C5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ibid is the abreviation of ibidem--latin for "from where" and refers to = a previously cited source, sometimes followed by a page reference. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 3:43 PM Somebody please help me out. This may seem like a dumb question to y'all = but it has been driving me crazy. I have noticed in several historical = books I have read, that they list referances like "ibid 170". What on = earth is this refence? What does the "ibid" stand for? Are the numbers = page numbers? Thanks, in advance. YMOS Watchum Possum ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C02643.4D01C5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ibid is the abreviation of ibidem--latin for "from where" and = refers to a=20 previously cited source, sometimes followed by a page reference.
Lanney Ratcliff
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Douglas=20 Hepner
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 3:43 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: ibid? References

Somebody please help me = out. This may=20 seem like a dumb question to y'all but it has been driving me crazy. I = have=20 noticed in several historical books I have read, that they list = referances like=20 "ibid 170". What on earth is this refence? What does the "ibid" stand = for? Are=20 the numbers page numbers? Thanks, in advance.
 
YMOS
Watchum=20 Possum
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C02643.4D01C5C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" Subject: MtMan-List: UNBRIDLED v/s BRIDLED FIZZENS Date: 24 Sep 2000 16:25:59 -0700 What is the difference as I see reference to: UNBRIDLED v/s BRIDLED FIZZENS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Frizzens Date: 24 Sep 2000 18:42:47 -0500 Bruce, An unbridled frizzen has only a screw to hold the frizzen to the lockplate, while a bridled frizzen has an "ear" projecting from the front of the pan that the frizzen screw goes through before going through the frizzen itself and threading into the lockplate. Locks with unbridled frizzens are usually earlier, but can also just be a cheaper made lock. MAny Northwest Trade Guns of all periods had unbridled frizzens. Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 24 Sep 2000 18:08:56 -0700 Dear "Texas Larry", As has been mentioned in other posts, the finger woven sash was a product of Metis and Indian women. The various colors and patterns were regional or family in design but became a "standard" look by the time Ashley headed West. At forts and posts, particularly the Hudson Bay variety, no doubt sheep and wool was available. And probably Indian and Metis women who would undertake the making of a sash. But the Free Trapper or "classic" Mountain Man was not a post-sitter. His supplies regularly came from the rendezvous arrangement...or did I miss the difference between the Western Americans and the Long Hunters of old? The point I was making was that if the rendezvous lists omit leather specifically cut for belt blanks but do include various buckles of different sizes, there is a readily available source (in the Mountains)of leather to attach that buckle to. And if Miller sketched even French hunters using belts with buckles but did not sketch the more picturesque voyager sash, it seems the leather belt NOT the woven sash was the preferred method of attaching stuff to your body. As far as the usability of the sash versus the belt, what Western Mountain Man out there uses the sash over the belt? Let's have a show of hands. I wear a sash...BUT I wear a tool belt with my knife, document pouch and strike a light bag attached to it over the sash. The sash is "yust for pretty". And sashes made out of fiber other than the traditional wool? What the hell for? I have a problem picturing a period Mountain Man sitting around the old camp fire during the winter months (when he had time) finger weaving out of hemp or yucca fiber a belt to replace the sturdy leather one he already had. The Mountain Man had availability to many goods at posts and forts but when he was on his own, when he had to survive, the practical took precedence over the pretty. What I find most interesting about the Miller documentation is the lack of ornamentation on their dress. This was Rendezvous, for Pete's sake!, and where is all the dress-up? Where are all the Rendezvous Bulls and Peacocks that are so readily seen at today's re-enactments? Where are the fancy "Wild West Show" performers that even Remington drew? They are strangely absent in the Miller paintings. When Bodmer or Catlin chose a subject, they chose an Indian for detail and fancy dress. The American trapper was just a working stiff and his gear reflected it, even at Rendezvous. I find beauty in the practical "sameness" of dress that is the unifying feature of Millers white trappers. Those are my thoughts, The California Larry ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:16 AM > Excellent points Brother Huber, but would spun wool not have been available > at the various forts ? They raised a variety livestock, but I can't > remember if they raised sheep. Would the trappers who ventured over into > your part of the world have had access to spun wool products ? I don't mean > to be going to extremes just to justify something, but it doesn't seem to be > much of a stretch. What are your thoughts ? > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Huber > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, September 23, 2000 11:53 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) > > > Interesting topic! Did American Trappers of white English/Celtic stock use > sashes and garters? Probably not as a rule. If we accept that woven > cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place of tanned belt leather > because they were cheaper and more easily attained, this does not mean that > this practice carried over into the Rocky Mountains. First of all, sashes > were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the East, but this material > would be non-existent in the mountains. Second, if the rendezvous lists do > not mention belt leather, where does it mention woven sashes or wool thread > to make same? I submit that brain tanned leather was the most easily > attainable "fabric" in the Rockies. It replaced the cloth garments that > rotted in the elements. I think it's safe to assume this practice extended > to the replacement of cloth sashes. The rendezvous lists support this. > Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse tack made it to the > Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult to make. A leather belt > is the simplest thing to make. All you need is a sharp knife, awl, needle > and thread...and, of course, a buckle. And buckles were available from the > traders that came to rendezvous. They didn't pack in what didn't sell. > Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went on leather belts. > Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked inside them. And the > famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine Clement, clearly shows he > preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven sash to hold his > percussion pistol. > > Larry Huber > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Poorboy > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:35 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) > > > > Klahowya My Friends, > > > > Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast my > > two cents before the swine. > > During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky Mountain > > Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued > not > > easily obtained commodity. I believe research shows that woven straps and > > belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods. This > I > > believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and that > > good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute > was > > available. Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American > > frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian. > > In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On line > > here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather. I did find notations > > for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate > leather > > or other), and some entries for assorted buckles. > > It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade > lists, > > and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general > > reference, but subject to artistic license. Considering the known > > information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps over > > leather during the EL/F&I period). Adding in the known prominence of > woven > > straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian. The general lack of > > documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period. The > studies > > that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in > the > > RMR period were of mixed blood. And my opinion that shoes, horse tack, > and > > harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather, > > especially when a viable woven alternative was available. I therefore > > assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the > > American RMR period. Sashes were probably less common, but still present. > > One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, > not > > finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from > it. > > And the list of arguments could go on.... > > > > I leave this as fodder before the storm..... > sayings anyway...VBG> Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am > always > > open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but > you > > can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two. > > Have at it boys...YMOS > > PoorBoy > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (short) Date: 24 Sep 2000 08:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Hate to bring the industrial revolution into this thread but a lot of factories needed conveyor belts and the cattle and buffalo herds filled the demand and more. The late mountain man era could see a supply of bark-tanned and oil-tanned leather for belts and such, no? Just curious. The eastern buffalo herds of the colonies/states were wiped out for many reasons, this be just one. --- "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Gentelmen and Ladies, > Belt's,/Harness leather? they are the same, belts > were probably made from > harness leather and the buckels could have been > harness buckles!. Sashes can > be made from other things wrather than wool, such as > Hemp. What about rifle > slings? there are rifles shown hanging over the > shoulder, what are they made > from, could be leather, brain tan, sashe type > material, hemp or cotton > weebing. > What about silk scarves, made from? Silk worms in > the rockies? NO, trade > goods. The amount of trade goods and the locality of > trading > posts/forts/stockades made the avalibility of such > items much more avalible > then we think. One thing I keep thinking is that we > only see the tip of the > ice berg! when we look at trade lists and drawings, > there was much more than > that. there were also many players in this period of > time. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: "Larry Huber" > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) > >Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000, 1:00 AM > > > > >Interesting topic! Did American Trappers of white > English/Celtic stock use > >sashes and garters? Probably not as a rule. If > we accept that woven > >cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place > of tanned belt leather > >because they were cheaper and more easily attained, > this does not mean that > >this practice carried over into the Rocky > Mountains. First of all, sashes > >were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the > East, but this material > >would be non-existent in the mountains. Second, if > the rendezvous lists do > >not mention belt leather, where does it mention > woven sashes or wool thread > >to make same? I submit that brain tanned leather > was the most easily > >attainable "fabric" in the Rockies. It replaced > the cloth garments that > >rotted in the elements. I think it's safe to > assume this practice extended > >to the replacement of cloth sashes. The rendezvous > lists support this. > >Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse > tack made it to the > >Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult > to make. A leather belt > >is the simplest thing to make. All you need is a > sharp knife, awl, needle > >and thread...and, of course, a buckle. And buckles > were available from the > >traders that came to rendezvous. They didn't pack > in what didn't sell. > >Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went > on leather belts. > >Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked > inside them. And the > >famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine > Clement, clearly shows he > >preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven > sash to hold his > >percussion pistol. > > > >Larry Huber ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: hugh glass Date: 25 Sep 2000 12:22:21 MDT ho mountian camp! i think i have some storys mixup. was it hugh glass than was caught by some hostals crossing the yellowsone on the ice. by ft. remon at the age of 65 years. later some of his goods turned up,in what camp? Thanks for your input hiverant metis bilgs,mt. ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hugh glass Date: 25 Sep 2000 14:59:29 -0700 Maximilian " Old Glass, with two companions, had gone from Ft. Cass to hunt beavers on the Yellowstone, and as they were crossing the river on the ice further down, they were all three shot, scalped and plundered by a war party of 30 Arikaras, who were concealed on the opposite bank" from The Saga of Hugh Glass by John MyersMyers , hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: hugh glass Date: 25 Sep 2000 16:24:01 -0600 What happened to the part about blowing up a black powder keg and taking some of them with him? Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Randal J Bublitz Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 3:59 PM Maximilian " Old Glass, with two companions, had gone from Ft. Cass to hunt beavers on the Yellowstone, and as they were crossing the river on the ice further down, they were all three shot, scalped and plundered by a war party of 30 Arikaras, who were concealed on the opposite bank" from The Saga of Hugh Glass by John MyersMyers , hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm Date: 25 Sep 2000 21:37:31 EDT Ho' Mtn.Camp, Since I am new to the hills and am just gettin' the green wored off I got a few questions to be askin'. Fust, any one of you coons got any know how 'bout puttin' together yer own authentic powder and primin' horns or any readin' on how to do such? Second, anybody got any good advice on cleanin' a mtn. rifle real good...or better'n that...just what not to do when cleanin' it? 'Preciate all you fellers helpin' this greenhorn out! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Date: 25 Sep 2000 21:32:58 -0700 Dear "California Larry", We agree on everything except the access to the forts. There are numerous documented situations where both individual trappers and entire brigades went to forts to resupply between rendezvous, because for one reason or another they had become separated from their plunder. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Dear "Texas Larry", As has been mentioned in other posts, the finger woven sash was a product of Metis and Indian women. The various colors and patterns were regional or family in design but became a "standard" look by the time Ashley headed West. At forts and posts, particularly the Hudson Bay variety, no doubt sheep and wool was available. And probably Indian and Metis women who would undertake the making of a sash. But the Free Trapper or "classic" Mountain Man was not a post-sitter. His supplies regularly came from the rendezvous arrangement...or did I miss the difference between the Western Americans and the Long Hunters of old? The point I was making was that if the rendezvous lists omit leather specifically cut for belt blanks but do include various buckles of different sizes, there is a readily available source (in the Mountains)of leather to attach that buckle to. And if Miller sketched even French hunters using belts with buckles but did not sketch the more picturesque voyager sash, it seems the leather belt NOT the woven sash was the preferred method of attaching stuff to your body. As far as the usability of the sash versus the belt, what Western Mountain Man out there uses the sash over the belt? Let's have a show of hands. I wear a sash...BUT I wear a tool belt with my knife, document pouch and strike a light bag attached to it over the sash. The sash is "yust for pretty". And sashes made out of fiber other than the traditional wool? What the hell for? I have a problem picturing a period Mountain Man sitting around the old camp fire during the winter months (when he had time) finger weaving out of hemp or yucca fiber a belt to replace the sturdy leather one he already had. The Mountain Man had availability to many goods at posts and forts but when he was on his own, when he had to survive, the practical took precedence over the pretty. What I find most interesting about the Miller documentation is the lack of ornamentation on their dress. This was Rendezvous, for Pete's sake!, and where is all the dress-up? Where are all the Rendezvous Bulls and Peacocks that are so readily seen at today's re-enactments? Where are the fancy "Wild West Show" performers that even Remington drew? They are strangely absent in the Miller paintings. When Bodmer or Catlin chose a subject, they chose an Indian for detail and fancy dress. The American trapper was just a working stiff and his gear reflected it, even at Rendezvous. I find beauty in the practical "sameness" of dress that is the unifying feature of Millers white trappers. Those are my thoughts, The California Larry ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:16 AM > Excellent points Brother Huber, but would spun wool not have been available > at the various forts ? They raised a variety livestock, but I can't > remember if they raised sheep. Would the trappers who ventured over into > your part of the world have had access to spun wool products ? I don't mean > to be going to extremes just to justify something, but it doesn't seem to be > much of a stretch. What are your thoughts ? > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Huber > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, September 23, 2000 11:53 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) > > > Interesting topic! Did American Trappers of white English/Celtic stock use > sashes and garters? Probably not as a rule. If we accept that woven > cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place of tanned belt leather > because they were cheaper and more easily attained, this does not mean that > this practice carried over into the Rocky Mountains. First of all, sashes > were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the East, but this material > would be non-existent in the mountains. Second, if the rendezvous lists do > not mention belt leather, where does it mention woven sashes or wool thread > to make same? I submit that brain tanned leather was the most easily > attainable "fabric" in the Rockies. It replaced the cloth garments that > rotted in the elements. I think it's safe to assume this practice extended > to the replacement of cloth sashes. The rendezvous lists support this. > Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse tack made it to the > Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult to make. A leather belt > is the simplest thing to make. All you need is a sharp knife, awl, needle > and thread...and, of course, a buckle. And buckles were available from the > traders that came to rendezvous. They didn't pack in what didn't sell. > Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went on leather belts. > Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked inside them. And the > famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine Clement, clearly shows he > preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven sash to hold his > percussion pistol. > > Larry Huber > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Poorboy > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:35 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) > > > > Klahowya My Friends, > > > > Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast my > > two cents before the swine. > > During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky Mountain > > Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued > not > > easily obtained commodity. I believe research shows that woven straps and > > belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods. This > I > > believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and that > > good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute > was > > available. Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American > > frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian. > > In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On line > > here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather. I did find notations > > for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate > leather > > or other), and some entries for assorted buckles. > > It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade > lists, > > and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general > > reference, but subject to artistic license. Considering the known > > information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps over > > leather during the EL/F&I period). Adding in the known prominence of > woven > > straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian. The general lack of > > documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period. The > studies > > that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in > the > > RMR period were of mixed blood. And my opinion that shoes, horse tack, > and > > harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather, > > especially when a viable woven alternative was available. I therefore > > assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the > > American RMR period. Sashes were probably less common, but still present. > > One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, > not > > finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from > it. > > And the list of arguments could go on.... > > > > I leave this as fodder before the storm..... > sayings anyway...VBG> Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am > always > > open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but > you > > can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two. > > Have at it boys...YMOS > > PoorBoy > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm Date: 25 Sep 2000 20:56:54 -0600 Hey, Hiking on Through: You might want to try the MLML list. It deals in those subjects with a lot of activity. This list sometimes plumb goes flat line. Like now. The forte of this list is the American Mountain Man. Particularly the mounted bunch that Rendezvous from 1825-1840 or there about. Big doings at Fort Union Trading Post seem to have drawn active members away from the list. Try to get on both lists for more information assists on your basic questions. Walt Orginal Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of HikingOnThru@cs.com Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 7:38 PM Ho' Mtn.Camp, Since I am new to the hills and am just gettin' the green wored off I got a few questions to be askin'. Fust, any one of you coons got any know how 'bout puttin' together yer own authentic powder and primin' horns or any readin' on how to do such? Second, anybody got any good advice on cleanin' a mtn. rifle real good...or better'n that...just what not to do when cleanin' it? 'Preciate all you fellers helpin' this greenhorn out! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm Date: 25 Sep 2000 20:20:44 -0700 > Fust, any one of you coons got any know how 'bout puttin' together yer own > authentic powder and primin' horns or any readin' on how to do such? Got some good reading for you. Book of Buckskinning has a nice article or two on building authenticly constructed horns of all styles. Not sure which volume 1 through 8 but a green horn needs all 8 anyway. > > Second, anybody got any good advice on cleanin' a mtn. rifle real good...or > better'n that...just what not to do when cleanin' it? Cold or hot water pumped out the touch hole with the gun leaning against something so it is upside down, butt down on the ground, trigger up. Frizzen closed. Use tow (flax fiber) or cotton patch on a jag. Pour water into bore adn push down with patch or tow on jag or worm. Pump water out the touch hole until the wiper isn't getting lots of black on it any more and then dry the bore and lightly oil or grease with whatever natural lube you like. I kinda favor sweet oil (olive oil) and bear grease but any natural oil or grease will work fine just not too heavy. Take the lock off and make sure the area around the touch hole is clean, dry and lightly oiled with the rest of the barrel. Same for the lock and etc. Replace, check flint and put her in your bed roll for the morning. Don't like to use artificial lubes and soaps because I believe they foul the bore and the powder and remove the "seasoning" that may build up in a gun that uses naturally greased/oiled patches. Good shooting pilgrim, I remain....l.. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm Date: 25 Sep 2000 20:24:09 -0700 Greenhorn, Hi, I'd suggest checking out the set of books put out by Muzzle Blast magazine.... Book of Buckskinning I - IX, or so now. I believe there is an article , or two, in there on making your own horns. As to care for your smokepole; I believe that if you stick to animal/vegetable greases for patching, etc... you will have good luck. Stay away from petroleum products. I use vegetable fat for lubing, etc... and clean with hot water-with maybe a hint ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm Date: 25 Sep 2000 21:41:43 -0700 my program took off with an incoming message---cut me off short on last message...---just a hint of soap for stubborn , dirty guns. Looks like Roger agrees with me...keep it natural, and you'll cure your barrel like a skillet. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ibid? References Date: 25 Sep 2000 22:52:42 -0600 --============_-1242178531==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" It means I bid $170......................what else! joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! --============_-1242178531==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" ArialIt means I bid $170......................what else! joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! --============_-1242178531==_ma============-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm Date: 26 Sep 2000 08:04:26 -0500 The series of Books of Buckskinning is indeed a good place to begin. = However, they are produced by the publisher of Muzzleloader Magazine, = not Muzzle Blasts Magazine. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 10:24 PM longarm > Greenhorn, Hi, I'd suggest checking out the set of books put out = by > Muzzle Blast magazine.... Book of Buckskinning I - IX, or so now. I > believe there is an article , or two, in there on making your own = horns.=20 > As to care for your smokepole; I believe that if you stick to > animal/vegetable greases for patching, etc... you will have good luck. = > Stay away from petroleum products. I use vegetable fat for lubing, > etc... and clean with hot water-with maybe a hint=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 26 Sep 2000 07:14:28 -0600 Hi again, folks! I should warn you guys that my old computer died, so I'm not always going to be able to respond as promptly as I'd like. This discussion about sashes is interesting. First, I've got an article about sashes on my web site; it has some historical information, but is mostly a "how-to" on fingerweaving. It's at www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/sash.html. Sashes show up regularly on lists of trade goods from my period (Canada, 1774-1821). They are usually described as "worsted belts"--has anyone seen that on a list of trade goods from the Mountain Man era? They can also be described as "worsted sashes" or "wool ceintures"--ceinture is French for belt. I haven't found any references to Native or Metis women making them out here in the Northwest *in my period*, but that might have happened later on, I don't know. The name "Assumption/Assomption sash" comes from the Assomption area, near Montreal, where most of the sashes were made at first (c. 1799, when they begin showing up in my trade good lists). They were sometimes called "Achigan sashes" because they were also made in Achigan, near Montreal. As for garters, I'm sure their main use was to hold up leggins; there are yards and yards of "gartering" and "ferreting" (a kind of gartering) on trade goods lists. I haven't, however, yet found a reference to anyone actually wearing garters. I'm sure it's just a matter of time, though. Somebody said that they felt sashes were "just for show". Try this: fold your sash in half lengthwise, then wrap it around you with the folded part on the bottom. You now have a shallow pocket that runs all around your waist, perfect for holding your tinder box, car keys, etc. BTW, I've never found documentation for voyageurs wearing loom-woven sashes; they seem to have been introduced from England c. 1890, in a much different form than the inkle loom sashes some folks sell. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 26 Sep 2000 09:24:34 -0700 Angela, When I toured Fort William a few years back, the docents said that most of the "Indians" that occupied the area around the fort were Metis by 1820. I have also heard that the voyagers that plied the waters and made the Assumption sashes were by in large Metis as well. I was under the impression that the finger weaving of sashes was mostly a female occupation. Any insight into this? I don't think there is any argument about the use of sashes among the Canadian trade. I think the discussion is the use of them south of the border. I'd like to see trade lists for them in the kinds of numbers you've suggested before feeling comfortable about their common usage by the common American trapper. Is there any record of them at all? What about the stock of supplies at forts or posts? Do they show up there as has been suggested? Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 6:14 AM > Hi again, folks! I should warn you guys that my old computer died, so I'm > not always going to be able to respond as promptly as I'd like. > > This discussion about sashes is interesting. First, I've got an article > about sashes on my web site; it has some historical information, but is > mostly a "how-to" on fingerweaving. It's at > www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/sash.html. > > Sashes show up regularly on lists of trade goods from my period (Canada, > 1774-1821). They are usually described as "worsted belts"--has anyone seen > that on a list of trade goods from the Mountain Man era? They can also be > described as "worsted sashes" or "wool ceintures"--ceinture is French for > belt. I haven't found any references to Native or Metis women making them > out here in the Northwest *in my period*, but that might have happened > later on, I don't know. The name "Assumption/Assomption sash" comes from > the Assomption area, near Montreal, where most of the sashes were made at > first (c. 1799, when they begin showing up in my trade good lists). They > were sometimes called "Achigan sashes" because they were also made in > Achigan, near Montreal. > As for garters, I'm sure their main use was to hold up leggins; there are > yards and yards of "gartering" and "ferreting" (a kind of gartering) on > trade goods lists. I haven't, however, yet found a reference to anyone > actually wearing garters. I'm sure it's just a matter of time, though. > > Somebody said that they felt sashes were "just for show". Try this: fold > your sash in half lengthwise, then wrap it around you with the folded part > on the bottom. You now have a shallow pocket that runs all around your > waist, perfect for holding your tinder box, car keys, etc. > > BTW, I've never found documentation for voyageurs wearing loom-woven > sashes; they seem to have been introduced from England c. 1890, in a much > different form than the inkle loom sashes some folks sell. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 26 Sep 2000 11:17:10 -0500 It's my view the the sashes were worn by the voyageurs, the waist sash worn much like a weight lifting belt to help prevent hernias, the legging sashes were to keep the knees from buckling under 2 or 3 90 pound packs carried on portages. I always heard the three top killers of voyageurs was drowning, hernias and emphasema (sp). Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: GUN REFRESHER COURSE Date: 26 Sep 2000 11:19:54 -0500 I figured some out there would appreciate these. a.. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject. b.. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone. c.. Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface. d.. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control. e.. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords? f.. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words. g.. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms. h.. If you don't know your rights you don't have any. i.. Those who trade liberty for security have neither. j.. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved. k.. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand? l.. The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others. m.. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday. n.. Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians. o.. Know guns, know peace and safety. No guns, no peace nor safety. p.. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive. q.. 911 - government sponsored Dial a Prayer. r.. Assault is a behavior, not a device. s.. Criminals love gun control - it makes their jobs safer. t.. If Guns cause Crime, then Matches cause Arson. u.. Only a government that is afraid of it's citizens try to control them. v.. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for. w.. Enforce the "gun control laws" in place, don't make more. x.. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves. y.. The American Revolution would never have happened with Gun Control. z. "...a government by the people, for the people..." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 26 Sep 2000 19:25:57 -0700 Thanks Angela ! Great info 1 Pendleton -----Original Message----- Hi again, folks! I should warn you guys that my old computer died, so I'm not always going to be able to respond as promptly as I'd like. This discussion about sashes is interesting. First, I've got an article about sashes on my web site; it has some historical information, but is mostly a "how-to" on fingerweaving. It's at www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/sash.html. Sashes show up regularly on lists of trade goods from my period (Canada, 1774-1821). They are usually described as "worsted belts"--has anyone seen that on a list of trade goods from the Mountain Man era? They can also be described as "worsted sashes" or "wool ceintures"--ceinture is French for belt. I haven't found any references to Native or Metis women making them out here in the Northwest *in my period*, but that might have happened later on, I don't know. The name "Assumption/Assomption sash" comes from the Assomption area, near Montreal, where most of the sashes were made at first (c. 1799, when they begin showing up in my trade good lists). They were sometimes called "Achigan sashes" because they were also made in Achigan, near Montreal. As for garters, I'm sure their main use was to hold up leggins; there are yards and yards of "gartering" and "ferreting" (a kind of gartering) on trade goods lists. I haven't, however, yet found a reference to anyone actually wearing garters. I'm sure it's just a matter of time, though. Somebody said that they felt sashes were "just for show". Try this: fold your sash in half lengthwise, then wrap it around you with the folded part on the bottom. You now have a shallow pocket that runs all around your waist, perfect for holding your tinder box, car keys, etc. BTW, I've never found documentation for voyageurs wearing loom-woven sashes; they seem to have been introduced from England c. 1890, in a much different form than the inkle loom sashes some folks sell. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle made of money Date: 26 Sep 2000 19:39:21 -0500 A model 92 made in 1884 would be very rare. Mostly because model 92s came out in 1892.... northwoods ----- Original Message ----- Sent: September 24, 2000 1:35 AM > I know this is a black powder only page, but I have to write this anyway. I > recieved an e-mail from a guy who wanted to know how much his winchester > model 92, that was made in 1884 was worth. I did the research and replied > with the answear $600-$7000. These are the prices I found, I bet that fellow > is very happy to own that gun. The moral of the story, if you don't know > something about the gun you own ask somebody who does, you might end up > being a happy fellow yourself. > > Larry J Sherman > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm Date: 26 Sep 2000 20:55:11 -0500 Book 2 has a length article on making horns, and is worth a read. The = whole series is worth looking into. You can get the whole series from = Scurlock publishing, I believe their website is www.muzzmag.com. Todd > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Ratcliff > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 8:04 AM > To: History List > Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the > longarm >=20 >=20 > The series of Books of Buckskinning is indeed a good place to=20 > begin. However, they are produced by the publisher of=20 > Muzzleloader Magazine, not Muzzle Blasts Magazine. > Lanney Ratcliff >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Randal J Bublitz" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 10:24 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning=20 > the longarm >=20 >=20 > > Greenhorn, Hi, I'd suggest checking out the set of books put out = by > > Muzzle Blast magazine.... Book of Buckskinning I - IX, or so now. = I > > believe there is an article , or two, in there on making your=20 > own horns.=20 > > As to care for your smokepole; I believe that if you stick to > > animal/vegetable greases for patching, etc... you will have good = luck.=20 > > Stay away from petroleum products. I use vegetable fat for lubing, > > etc... and clean with hot water-with maybe a hint=20 > >=20 > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Process of shooting a muzzleloader Date: 26 Sep 2000 22:02:19 EDT Hey y'all, I have read a lot and got a lot of different advice about shooting a muzzleloader. I need some good basic advice on just WHAT to do to get started shooting and not ruin a good new gun. Can anyone walk me thru the steps and what materials to use (how to lube bullets, prep patches, care for barrel, etc.) or point me in the right direction to some good resources. I want to avoid ruining a good barrel and messing up the "seasoning" of the barrel. I am totally GREEN at this and the only real "blackpowder" shooters at this I know around here use pyrodex, inline rifles and such. Prior, my dad loaded a borrowed T/C Hawken .50 cal for me to shoot (had to make that shot count)! I am using a Lyman .50 cal flintlock Trade Rifle. Anyway, it seems the more info. I get the more confused I get. Is it just me or are shooting styles like Barbecue sauce (everyone has their own recipe). Thanks ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Process of shooting a muzzleloader Date: 26 Sep 2000 22:17:10 EDT > I have read a lot and got a lot of different advice about shooting a > muzzleloader. I need some good basic advice on just WHAT to do to get > started shooting and not ruin a good new gun. New MLML homepage If you have a web enabled computer, then just click on the link above. Then very carefully read ALL the FAQs you find there. Then when you are done, ask specific questions. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: Process of shooting a muzzleloader Date: 26 Sep 2000 21:26:29 -0500 HOT, I know Hiking on Through isn't your name. Let me tell you from = experience that unless you sign your name to your posts you will not get = very much of a response from the list. First name only is fine = (doesn't even have to be your own name), but sign some sort of name and = watch you mail pick up. Now to your question. I will let better shooters than I give you the = real nuts and bolts of shooting your Lyman but I will tell you the most = important thing that you must always remember about shooting blackpowder = arms..........use black powder or (ugh, pyrodex) ONLY. The barrell of = you gun is almost certainly marked blackpowder only and they absolutely = mean it. The pressure developed by blackpowder is nowhere close to the = pressures developed by smokeless powders....nowhere close. If you use = any amount of any kind of smokeless powder in you blackpowder gun you = run the very real risk of causing a detonation of you barrell, possibly = with life threatening consequences. Seriously. Don't let you brother = in law or you best friend from grade school or anybody else talk you = into using anything but black powder or pyrodex in you Lyman. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff, Texian ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 9:02 PM > Hey y'all, >=20 > I have read a lot and got a lot of different advice about shooting a=20 > muzzleloader. I need some good basic advice on just WHAT to do to get = > started shooting and not ruin a good new gun. >=20 > Can anyone walk me thru the steps and what materials to use (how to = lube=20 > bullets, prep patches, care for barrel, etc.) or point me in the right = > direction to some good resources. I want to avoid ruining a good = barrel and=20 > messing up the "seasoning" of the barrel. I am totally GREEN at this = and the=20 > only real "blackpowder" shooters at this I know around here use = pyrodex,=20 > inline rifles and such. Prior, my dad loaded a borrowed T/C Hawken = .50 cal=20 > for me to shoot (had to make that shot count)! I am using a Lyman .50 = cal=20 > flintlock Trade Rifle. Anyway, it seems the more info. I get the more = > confused I get. Is it just me or are shooting styles like Barbecue = sauce=20 > (everyone has their own recipe). >=20 > Thanks >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Process of shooting a muzzleloader Date: 26 Sep 2000 19:45:03 -0700 Well if your into surfing the net here is a link to a home page of the MLML, or muzzle loaders mail list. It is the same page as Dave gave you but may be easier for your pc to bring up. http://members.aol.com/illinewek That list is devoted to shooting and talking muzzle loaders. Many very knowledgeable shooters have written some great articles on how to get the most out of a muzzle loader. You can't go wrong reading what is available there. Saves us from retyping it . Most, if not all the fellas and gals on this list are here to talk the history of the people who shot muzzle loaders as a regular part of their lives and when we do shoot we tend to keep it simple like the old timers did it. You can come back to that but the little nuances of shooting muzzle loaders won't be found here easily. Got to this page and read what they have to say. When you got particular questions of the pros and cons come on back and some of us will fill in the spaces. Good shooting. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 7:02 PM > Hey y'all, > > I have read a lot and got a lot of different advice about shooting a > muzzleloader. I need some good basic advice on just WHAT to do to get > started shooting and not ruin a good new gun. > > Can anyone walk me thru the steps and what materials to use (how to lube > bullets, prep patches, care for barrel, etc.) or point me in the right > direction to some good resources. I want to avoid ruining a good barrel and > messing up the "seasoning" of the barrel. I am totally GREEN at this and the > only real "blackpowder" shooters at this I know around here use pyrodex, > inline rifles and such. Prior, my dad loaded a borrowed T/C Hawken .50 cal > for me to shoot (had to make that shot count)! I am using a Lyman .50 cal > flintlock Trade Rifle. Anyway, it seems the more info. I get the more > confused I get. Is it just me or are shooting styles like Barbecue sauce > (everyone has their own recipe). > > Thanks > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Process of shooting a muzzleloader Date: 26 Sep 2000 22:31:58 -0400 Hey no name, You have come to the right sight. Some of these old timers will give you more info than you could ever expect. You may want to sign on with your name or your nickname. Being a Lyman 50 cal man myself, I can give you a little of what I know. Take into consideration that I like making everything myself. For patches I use pillow ticking that I get from walmart. Since my old gun is considerably old, I use the thickest pillow ticking I can find. I also only shoot round balls and always shoot blackpowder. Since you are using a flintlock I highly stress blackpowder only. Now I have made up my own mix for lube but since walmart was having a sale on 1000 plus bullet lube for 1.00 a large container, I am presently using it. So I smell like bengay. Before I even shoot my gun for the season I usually give it a good cleaning with luke warm water and a copper brush. Scrub, scrub, scrub. DO NOT USE A PETROLEUM BASE CLEANER. I did when I started out and well, the old timers will tell you how I spent my day. Darn thing would not fire, balls got stuck half way down the barrel, gun fouled every other shot. Oh by the way, if your ball gets stuck half way down the barrel, do not shoot it out. After I shot mine out and told old Leon, the old timer damn near kicked my ars. I did not know that the barrel could explode. Lucky me. The best advice I could give you is to befriend one of these old timers and pick his brain. Do not argue, just listen. Old Leon luckily lives right down there in Atlanta, he has been shooting muzzleloaders for over 50 years and 20 of those years was in competition. I figger he knows his stuff. Time to listen. I have done one thing that is considered bad here, I switched from the old hickory ramrod to a brown wonder rod. It's not period correct, but it is brown and most do not notice. But I would just hate to be in the outback with a broken hickory stick. I always wondered when does one stop being a greenhorn? I have been shooting for over 5 years. When I am around Leon and the old gents I must say that I do feel like a greenhorn when it comes to the guns. But, when it comes to knives, hawks, bows, and primitive skills these old timers have nothing on me. Well, most of the time. Every now and then when I get too cocky, they show me why they still come to the rendezvous. Good Shooting, Frank V. Rago > I have read a lot and got a lot of different advice about shooting a > muzzleloader. I need some good basic advice on just WHAT to do to get > started shooting and not ruin a good new gun. > > Can anyone walk me thru the steps and what materials to use (how to lube > bullets, prep patches, care for barrel, etc.) or point me in the right > direction to some good resources. I want to avoid ruining a good barrel and > messing up the "seasoning" of the barrel. I am totally GREEN at this and the > only real "blackpowder" shooters at this I know around here use pyrodex, > inline rifles and such. Prior, my dad loaded a borrowed T/C Hawken .50 cal > for me to shoot (had to make that shot count)! I am using a Lyman .50 cal > flintlock Trade Rifle. Anyway, it seems the more info. I get the more > confused I get. Is it just me or are shooting styles like Barbecue sauce > (everyone has their own recipe). > > Thanks > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: sash Date: 26 Sep 2000 22:29:07 MDT there are alot of uses of the sash(ceinture-flechee} michif for sash.thank you angle and larry for uses. the sash was also used by the buffalo metis hunters than cased buffalo in montana and north dakota.they also had use s for the sash,one was, to hold down the shot pouch so it would not bouch while casesing buf. 1820,s. with these cart brigades of hunters came the metis freetrader. the freemen brought their goods from the hudson bay and norwest companys and resold to indian tribes meet alonge the way. some of the good bought by the freetraders were ENGLISH WOOL and SILK SCARFS ect. HUDSON BAY ARCHIVE,S.also rember the metis trade was considerd elligal.some time the metis war belts over the sash.even russell was painting metis buffalo hunters with sash only.depends one the individuals likes and dislikes.the sash was worn south of canada,s at lest in montana and northdakota. montana hunting is tyed wih canada.so when you say fur trade in the area most of the time canada will come into play some were. this was one big open country with. you must remeber that metis are of three goups in fur trade history the freetrader,the buffalo hunter and the will known voyageurs. the metis have there own history in north western fur trade study the hudson bay , which that montana of that time. got to cut shortnow. ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry sherman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle made of money Date: 27 Sep 2000 07:04:29 GMT I was already made aware of this. That would also explain why when I looked up this model of rifle for sale, all the models being sold where made around 1892. >From: "northwoods" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle made of money >Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:39:21 -0500 > >A model 92 made in 1884 would be very rare. Mostly because model 92s came >out in 1892.... > >northwoods > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "larry sherman" >To: >Sent: September 24, 2000 1:35 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: rifle made of money > > > > I know this is a black powder only page, but I have to write this >anyway. >I > > recieved an e-mail from a guy who wanted to know how much his winchester > > model 92, that was made in 1884 was worth. I did the research and >replied > > with the answear $600-$7000. These are the prices I found, I bet that >fellow > > is very happy to own that gun. The moral of the story, if you don't know > > something about the gun you own ask somebody who does, you might end up > > being a happy fellow yourself. > > > > Larry J Sherman > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle made of money Date: 27 Sep 2000 05:58:09 -0500 To find a model 92' that had been made in 1892 would be rare, only a small number of them were made that year. They were made into the 1940s' with over a million of them having been produced... northwoods ----- Original Message ----- Sent: September 27, 2000 2:04 AM > I was already made aware of this. That would also explain why when I looked > up this model of rifle for sale, all the models being sold where made around > 1892. > > > >From: "northwoods" > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle made of money > >Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:39:21 -0500 > > > >A model 92 made in 1884 would be very rare. Mostly because model 92s came > >out in 1892.... > > > >northwoods > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "larry sherman" > >To: > >Sent: September 24, 2000 1:35 AM > >Subject: MtMan-List: rifle made of money > > > > > > > I know this is a black powder only page, but I have to write this > >anyway. > >I > > > recieved an e-mail from a guy who wanted to know how much his winchester > > > model 92, that was made in 1884 was worth. I did the research and > >replied > > > with the answear $600-$7000. These are the prices I found, I bet that > >fellow > > > is very happy to own that gun. The moral of the story, if you don't know > > > something about the gun you own ask somebody who does, you might end up > > > being a happy fellow yourself. > > > > > > Larry J Sherman > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle made of money Date: 27 Sep 2000 05:58:09 -0500 To find a model 92' that had been made in 1892 would be rare, only a small number of them were made that year. They were made into the 1940s' with over a million of them having been produced... northwoods ----- Original Message ----- Sent: September 27, 2000 2:04 AM > I was already made aware of this. That would also explain why when I looked > up this model of rifle for sale, all the models being sold where made around > 1892. > > > >From: "northwoods" > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle made of money > >Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:39:21 -0500 > > > >A model 92 made in 1884 would be very rare. Mostly because model 92s came > >out in 1892.... > > > >northwoods > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "larry sherman" > >To: > >Sent: September 24, 2000 1:35 AM > >Subject: MtMan-List: rifle made of money > > > > > > > I know this is a black powder only page, but I have to write this > >anyway. > >I > > > recieved an e-mail from a guy who wanted to know how much his winchester > > > model 92, that was made in 1884 was worth. I did the research and > >replied > > > with the answear $600-$7000. These are the prices I found, I bet that > >fellow > > > is very happy to own that gun. The moral of the story, if you don't know > > > something about the gun you own ask somebody who does, you might end up > > > being a happy fellow yourself. > > > > > > Larry J Sherman > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Process of shooting a muzzleloader Date: 27 Sep 2000 07:53:28 -0600 No Name! You have gotten some good info, Lyman is a good rifle to start with. you will get tons of advice some good some bad. For the sake of somewhere to start I will tell you how I do it. I use "Black Powder only" and in a 50cal I would shoot a .490 round ball with a .015 thicknes ox-yoke dry patch either pre cut or ticking is fine. I use a wet lube called 10X which I don't think is made any more. The petrolium based lubes and bear grease I have never had any luck with as they fowl fast and you would have to swab after just a few shots, with a water base lube I never have to do that and I have never had any problem with rust. You must remember to clean the gun after each sesssion at the range. To start finding the accurate load start with 50 grains of 2F black powder, shoot 3 rounds from a bench rest position at 25 yards, then increase the powder charge by 5 grains and shoot 3 more, continue to do this until you get the tightest group. When you have gotten the tightest group move up to 50yards and re check the load. When you have gotten the load that you want then ajust the sights. Now as for ramrods, I have never broken a kickory ramrod in 26 years so the cynthetic ramrods don't impress me, if you are putting that much presure on a ramrod then you are doing something wrong. No Name, you can use this information or not it don't bother me one way or the other. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: HikingOnThru@cs.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Process of shooting a muzzleloader >Date: Tue, Sep 26, 2000, 8:02 PM > >Hey y'all, > >I have read a lot and got a lot of different advice about shooting a >muzzleloader. I need some good basic advice on just WHAT to do to get >started shooting and not ruin a good new gun. > >Can anyone walk me thru the steps and what materials to use (how to lube >bullets, prep patches, care for barrel, etc.) or point me in the right >direction to some good resources. I want to avoid ruining a good barrel and >messing up the "seasoning" of the barrel. I am totally GREEN at this and the >only real "blackpowder" shooters at this I know around here use pyrodex, >inline rifles and such. Prior, my dad loaded a borrowed T/C Hawken .50 cal >for me to shoot (had to make that shot count)! I am using a Lyman .50 cal >flintlock Trade Rifle. Anyway, it seems the more info. I get the more >confused I get. Is it just me or are shooting styles like Barbecue sauce >(everyone has their own recipe). > >Thanks > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Industrial Revolution Date: 27 Sep 2000 10:51:39 -0500 > >Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 08:12:56 -0700 (PDT) >From: S Jones >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (short) > >Hate to bring the industrial revolution into this >thread . . . The Industrial Revolution has much to do with the fur trade era. The application of steam and water power (prerequisets for industrialization) is already in full swing during the fur trade. Furthermore, the major characteristics which makes the Industrial Revolution happen is the development of a market economy by the 1830s and the advent of the assembly line and mass production, in turn made possible by introduction of interchangeable parts by Eli Whitney and others as early as the 1810s. The Industrial Revolution is as much a part of fur trade history as plews and point blankets, and it had already happened by the time of the Civil War (which gave the North that strategic edge). What happens in the 1870s was not so much a revolution, but a post war economic and industrial expansion of what had already taken hold two generations earlier, in much the same way that we witnessed in the 1950s after WWII. FYI Cheers, HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Knife query Date: 27 Sep 2000 15:24:45 -0500 Friends, A student of mine showed me a photo of a knife with a antler handle. The blade has an interesting marking near the base. There is a "V" and an "R" with a crown in between, indicating that it was possibly made in the time of Victoria. The manufacturer's name, Thornhill(?), is also stamped into the base of the blade. The knife is about 15 inches in overall length. Does anyone know of a English knife maker with a name similar to that, and is anyone aware of reproductions being made of this maker's work? Please reply. Cheers, HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Industrial Revolution Date: 27 Sep 2000 18:21:21 -0500 Henry, Just one thing I would like to correct in your post about the Industrial Revolution. Eli Whitney did not introduce interchangeable parts, (This is a fallacy that was taught in history classes and still believed by many people.) He only talked about interchangeable parts as a sales promotion for his gun manufacturing. He was not able to achieve this until long after many others had already achieved interchangability. In order to get government contracts for arms he boasted of complete parts interchangablility, but was not able to fulfill these contracts. YMOS, Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Process of shooting a muzzleloader Date: 27 Sep 2000 19:42:40 -0500 > For patches I use pillow ticking that I get from walmart. Since=20 > my old gun > is considerably old, I use the thickest pillow ticking I can find. I = also > only shoot round balls and always shoot blackpowder. Since you=20 > are using a > flintlock I highly stress blackpowder only. >=20 Speaking from experience, flintolocks DO NOT like Pyrodex, and will = rarely fire when loaded with it. Pyrodex requires a higher temp to = ignite. I learned that the HARD way. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hian Leng PANG" Subject: MtMan-List: Charlie's email Date: 28 Sep 2000 15:42:21 +0800 Hi, Could anyone tell me the email address of Charlie Ritchie, the editor of Backwoodsmen mag? Thanks. Pang ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charlie's email Date: 28 Sep 2000 07:26:10 -0700 pang, This is from an old issue (1992) of Backwoods Magazine: po Box627 Westcliffe. CO 81252 hope this helps, hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colleen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charlie's email Date: 28 Sep 2000 09:58:19 -0500 Here's the Backwoodsman's website: http://www.purelight.com/bwmmag/home.htm Colleen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: contact for Bob Schmidt Date: 28 Sep 2000 09:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Can any of the brothers out there tell me if Bob Schmidt from Montana is still making saddles and such, and if so how can I contact him. Thanks in advance, DOG __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cherokeoil@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. Date: 28 Sep 2000 12:21:05 EDT Subj: Take a good look at this tiersel@yahoo.com (Pete Moffit), Tekmagic@aol.com (Keith Johnson), tee818@aol.com (Trish Patterson), talaw@netzero.net (Leslie Wilson), Spacey7801@aol.com (Stacey), siniestra@aol.com (Annie and Rick), saman@tvsonline.net (Sarah Aman), redpathr@tfs.net (Roger Redpath), RBOOGIEP@aol.com (Robert Phillips), rahabgirl@yahoo.com (Tonya Shoats), predicate@goplay.com (John & Loretta Dale), nevasduck@hotmail.com (Robyn Nave), naoknu@ciudad.com.ar (Mirta Pertovt), mzzallie@hotmail.com (Alicia), mouse@ccp.com (Zack), mortain@juno.com (Phil Nichols), lnull@psu.edu (Linda Null), LdyTegan@aol.com (Donna Williams), LadyMaeRose@aol.com (Jane Plainmae), kristabel@juno.com (Kristen Hacker(Hickman)), KimElaine@yahoo.com (Kim Elaine), khacker@computereng.com (Karin Hacker), kddavidson@multiservice.com (Kim Davidson), Jeffturn@bigfoot.com (Jeff Turner), IMSBROKER@aol.com (William Wolfe), hacker@pennvalley.cc.mo.us (Sarah Hacker), GREGER101@aol.com (Greg Sturgen), GlenInPv@aol.com (Glen), Edwin.Farrar@mail.Sprint.com (Edwin Farrar), dreemursart@netscape.net (Tracy Meng), drcrb@cavenet.com (Carroll Bierbower), drbeastmd@collegeclub.com (Bill Brooks), darkwood@sprintmail.com (Laura Griffin), CLLA@ARGUSHEALTH.com (Lynda Anderson), Cherokeoil@aol.com (Wade), cedric@crn.org (Mike Nave), ccskckea@coop.crn.org (Liz Aman), cadyjeff@hotmail.com (Jeff Cady), bubbakong35@aol.com (Karla Taylor), BMITCHEL@amcastle.com (Bernice Mitchell), blanders@ponyexpress.net (Barb Landers), bbiscuits54@aol.com (Vickie Lair), batlham@yahoo.com (Steven Fuller), BassEd13@aol.com (Ed Harris), Ariel@sky.net (Donna Hauser), angie.brooks@quintiles.com (Angie Brooks), amazonartist@hotmail.com (Karen) > >Subject: Take a good look at this > > > > > > Read & Weep! > > > > > > > >CBS will be forced to discontinue "Touched by an Angel" for > >using the word God in every program. > >Madeline Murray O'Hare, an atheist, successfully managed > >to eliminate the use of Bible reading from public schools a > >few years ago. Now her organization has been granted a > >Federal Hearing on the same subject by the Federal > >Communications Commission (FCC) in Washington D.C. Their petition, > >Number 2493, would ultimately pave the way to stop the reading > >of the gospel of our Lord and Savior, on the airwaves of > >America. They got 287,000 signatures to back their stand! If this attempt is successful, all Sunday worship > >services being broadcast on the radio or by television will be > >stopped. This group is also campaigning to remove all Christmas programs and Christmas carols from public schools!! You > >as a Christian can help! We are praying for at least 1 million > >signatures. This would defeat their effort and show that there > >are many Christians alive, well and concerned about our country. > >As Christians we must unite on this. > > > >Please don't take this lightly. We ignored this lady once and > >lost prayer in our schools and in offices across the nation. > >Please stand up for your religious freedom and let your voice be > >heard. Together we can make a difference in our country while > >creating an opportunity for the lost to know the Lord. > >Please press "forward" and only delete out what is not needed, > >and forward this to everyone on your list. Now, please sign > >your name at the bottom. Don't delete anything, just go to the > >next number and type your name. > >Please do not sign jointly, such as Mr. & Mrs....Each person > >should sign his/her own name. > > > >Please e-mail this to everyone you know, and help us defeat this > >organization and keep the right of our freedom of religion. > >When you get to 1000 please email back to Lisa Norman. > > > > > >electric_yellow@hotmail.com > > 1: Courtney S. - Please people sign this letter!! > 2: Shelbi W. > 3: Brittany S. > 4: Lora J. > 5: Kim S. > 6: Adam P. > 7: Jana C. > 8: Terry Wlliams - Deer Park, TX > 9: Megan C. > 10: Christy C. > 11: Andy Crais > 12: Mollie Rice - > 13: Forrest S. -Lexington, KY > 14: Cherie F. - Lexington, KY > 15: Gerald Goodlett II -Lexington, KY > 16: Amanda Ferguson > 17: Valerie Grimes - Lexington, KY > 18: Erin McKenzie -Lexington, KY > 19: Robert Harrison -Cincinnati Ohio > 20: Barbara Cronk -Clearwater, FL > 21: Linda Tilley -Bemidji, Minnesota > 22: Donald Huntington - Irvine, CA > 23: Mary Stimpson -Shoreview, MN > 24: Kevin Gegner Redwood Falls, MN. > 25: Marie lexander - Canada > 26: Wes Erhart - Canada > 27. Wendy Barbour Canada > 28. Craig H. > 29.Kathy H. > 30. Joan Guthrie Canada > 31. Ron Guthrie > 32. Benita S.- Canada > 33: Hanny Kensington - Canada > 34. B. Brown - Canada > 35. Bill Olsen > 36. Gaydene Olsen > 37. Jennifer Visser > 38. Josh Olsen > 39. Donna Petch > 40.Andre Lefebvre , Canada > 41.John Hetherington - Canada > 42. Gaetanne Hetherington - Canada > 43. Shanie Melanson - Canada > 44. Peter Hill - Canada > 45. Janet Hill - Canada > 46. James Hill - Canada > 47. Emma Hill - Canada > 48. Michael Donley - Canada > 49. Geogia Gililand - Canada > 50. Kevin Wilnechenko - Canada > 51. Ruth Enns > 52. Allison Kern Canada > 53. Anika deRaad - Canada > 54. Erik Uunila - Canada > 55. Krista Uunila - Canada > 56. Leila Uunila - Canada > 57. Rose Uunila - Canada > 58. Marilyn Forbes - Canada > 59. Colin Evans - Canada > 60. Angela C.-Canada > 61. Kimberly Mager -Canada > 62. Kathryn Ferrari - Canada > 63. Janna Smith - Canada > 64. Shanna Ridley- Canada > 65. Thomas Somerville- Canada > 66. Lisa Norman-Canada > 67. Pat Wright-Canada > 68. John Wright- Canada > 69. Stuart Hemmings > 70. Sandra Hemmings > 71. Robert Badham > 72. June Badham > 73. Vance Taylor > 74. Pamela Schwab - Canada > 75. Ernest Schwab - Canada > 76. Carlene Neeve - Canada > 77. Gloria Stewart > 78. Harold Stewart > 79. Jackie Cannon, Princeton, KY > 80. Bro. Gerald Cannon, Princeton, KY > 81. Kim Brown > 82. Barry Brown > 83. Ken Scott > 84. Debby Scott > 85. Haley Scott > 86. Ryanne Scott > 87. Judy Shoulders > 88. Kimberly Davis, Alabama > 89. Kay Pruitt > 90. Stacey Black > 91. Susan Strauss > 92. Kristin Leggett > 93. Meredith Read > 94. Mary Whittington > 95. Letty Benning, College Station, TX > 96. Richard B > 97. Ricky Benning > 98. Andrea Benning > 99. Renee Bujanos > >100 Amanda Duffy - Houston, TX > >101 Dennis Duffy - Houston, TX > >102 Dennis Patrick Duffy - Houston, TX > >103 Tammie Jones 104 Peyton Mullins- Tyler Texas > >105 Vicki Mullins- Tyler, Texas > >106 Kristin Sims - Wenatchee, WA > >107 Julie Sargent - Virginia Beach, VA > >108 Michele Jordan - Chesapeake, VA > >109 Diane Cahoon - Mechanicsville, VA > >110 Jack Cahoon - Mechanicsville, VA > >111. Sam Langley - Richmond,VA. > >112. Jordan Fus- Richmond VA > >113. Betty Stegall - Las Vegas, Nv > >114. Alicia Somarriba > >115. shermalee nicholson- new york, n.y. > >116. Monica Rabassa, Miami, FL > >117. Gustavo Leon, Miami, FL > >118. Anna Figueroa, Miami, FL > >119. Teresita Gonzalez > >120. Alicia Romero >> > >121. Michael Lopez > >122. Pablo Pimienta, Miami FL > >123. Emily Espinosa > >124. Lisa Castro, Miami, FL > >125. Alain Castro, Miami, FL > >126. Meredith Stevenson, Miami, FL > >127. Marissa M. Stevenson, Miami, FL > >128. Patti Padrick, Homestead, FL > >129. Chelly Hodson, Miami, Fl. > >130. Lannie Sechrest, Homestead, FL > >131. Dena Dodrill, Ohio > >132. Greta Heath , Dunedin FL > >133. Melinda Heath > >134. Jessica Coosey Clearwater,Fl > >135. Roy Coosey Clearwater,Fl > >136. Parvati Govinda Dunedin,Fl > >137. J. Lamb Clearwater, Fl > >138. Melanee Mccarthy, Springhill Fla > >139. Sharon Brimmer, Cypress ,Tx > >140. Dean Dykes, Houston, TX > >141. Dennis Dykes, Houston,TX > >142. Dennis Dykes, Jr Dallas,TX > >143. Andrea Dykes, Dallas, Tx > >144. Brittany Dykes, Dallas,TX > >145. Chase Dykes, Dallas Tx > >146. Cheryl Brown, Baton Rouge La > >147. Al Danny Brown, Baton Rouge La. > >148. Mavis Cannon, Baker, La > >149. June Lumpkin, Baton Rouge, La > >150. Anna Bologna, Abita Springs,La > >151. Elaine Hebert, Abbeville, La > >152. Flossie Benard, Denham Springs, La > >153. Genevieve Johnson, Denham Springs, La > >154. Yancy Brown, Grovetown, GA > >155. Christy Brown, Grovetown, GA > >156. Pamela Pressley, Grovetown, GA > >157. Lori Winter, Grovetown, GA > >158. Pamela James, Belvedere, SC > >159. Jack Posey, Belvedere, SC > >160. Zena James, Augusta, GA > >161. Paul Ligon,Hephzibah,Ga. > >162. Nona Ligon,Hephzibah,Ga. > >163. Paul Ligon Jr., Hephzibah,Ga. > >164. Brian Ligon, Hephzibah, Ga. > >165. Chad Ligon, Hephzibah, Ga. > >166. Sylvia Brady, Augusta, GA > >167. Danny R. Brady, Augusta, GA > >168. Isabelle Brady, Augusta, GA > >169 Mary BeeBee Warner, Edgefield, SC > >170 Mary Jo Flenniken, Augusta, GA > >171 Michael S. Warner Jr., Edgefield, SC > >172 Jennifer Michelle Quarles, Johnston, SC > >173 Gage T. Quarles, Johnston, SC > >174 Joshusa S. Warner, Augusta, GA > >175 Susan H. Sganga, Augusta, GA > >176. Linda L. Jones, Augusta, GA > >177. Linda Tyree, Palm Springs, CA > >178. Catherine Powers, Birmingham, AL > >179. Robert McAllister, Birmingham, AL > >180. Lisa Stinson, Birmingham, AL > >181. Frances McAllister, Birmingham, AL > >182. Tom Moore, Birmingham, AL > >183. Chris Powers, Birmingham, AL > >184. Julie Hayes, Birmingham, AL > >185. Brandy Talley Brimingham, AL > >186. Jan Cotten Birmingham, AL > >187. Joe Cotten Birmingham, AL > >188. Allison Searcy, Birmingham, AL. > >189. Keith Searcy, Birmingham, AL. > >190. Patrick Searcy, Birmingham, AL > >191. Deann Searcy, Birmingham, AL. > >192. Terri Acton, Birmingham, AL > >193. Samantha Acton > >194. Ashley Edmonds ( Bug ) > >195. Amber Edmonds > >196. Veronica Edmonds > >197. Dennis Edmonds > >198. Ron Gaines > >199. Tom Gaines > >200. Salley Edmonds > >201. Barbara Carrasco > >202. Mitchell D. Ferguson,Portage IN> > >203. Bobbie Ferguson Portage, In. > >204. Lisa Szpakowski > >205. Scott Szpakowski > >206. Lovena Randolph > >207. Cheri Kinney > >208. Cliff Kinney III > >209. Christopher Kinney > >210. ~Ronda Bailey~, Surprise, AZ > >211. Dayna Losey, Mpls, MN > >212. Jennifer Bergerson, Shakopee, MN > >213. Daryl Losey, St Paul, MN > >214. Linda Losey, St Paul, MN > >215. Tim Doese, Mpls., MN > >216. Shirley Doese, Rio, WI > >217. Norman Doese, Rio, WI > >218. Belva Auchtung, Rio, WI > >219. Herman Auchtung, Rio, WI > >220. Marvin Losey, Surprise, AZ > >221. Sharon Losey, Surprise, AZ > >222. Glenn Losey, Mesa, AZ > >223. Mary Losey, Mesa, AZ > >224. Phillip Losey, Mesa, AZ > >225. Richard Losey, Mesa, AZ > >226. Steven Losey, Mesa, AZ > >227. Stanley Losey, Phoenix, AZ > >228. Carla Losey, Phoenix, AZ > >229. Ron Losey, Fridley, MN > >230. Amy Losey, Fridley, MN > >231. Michelle Losey, Fridley, MN > >232. Tara Losey, Fridley, MN > >233. Bonnie Karslake, Vanderbilt, MI > >234. Don Karslake, Vanderbile, MI > >235. Sharlene Gjonnes, DeForrest, WI > >236. Kieth Gjonnes, DeForrest, WI > >237..Linda Beckwith, Kansas City, MO > >238. JIM BAKER,KANSAS CITY,MO > 239. cindy wade kansas city ks > 240. michael wade kansas city ks > 241. andrew m. wade, united states army, kanasas city ks > 242. stepahnie m. wade kansas city ks >_ 243. cindy kampmeier > 244. mike kampmeier > 245. dawn shores > 246. eric hopper > 247. agnes pike > 248. vicky horvat 259. Debby Graber Bonner Springs, KS > 260: Mike Nave KC KS __261: Marsha Nave_KC KS 262: Wade Keeney ____________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagh. > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (rly-zc03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.3]) by air-zc05.mail.aol.com (v75_b4.3) with ESMTP; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:15:40 -0400 Received: from coop.crn.org (coop.crn.org [198.209.95.1]) by rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:15:08 -0400 Received: from main (ppp55.crn.org [208.129.0.183]) by coop.crn.org (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA17386; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:12:03 -0500 "Pete Moffit" , "Keith Johnson" , "Trish Patterson" , "Leslie Wilson" , "Stacey" , "Annie and Rick" , "Sarah Aman" , "Roger Redpath" , "Robert Phillips" , "Tonya Shoats" , "John & Loretta Dale" , "Robyn Nave" , "Mirta Pertovt" , "Alicia" , "Zack" , "Phil Nichols" , "Linda Null" , "Donna Williams" , "Jane Plainmae" , "Kristen Hacker(Hickman)" , "Kim Elaine" , "Karin Hacker" , "Kim Davidson" , "Jeff Turner" , "William Wolfe" , "Sarah Hacker" , "Greg Sturgen" , "Glen" , "Edwin Farrar" , "Tracy Meng" , "Carroll Bierbower" , "Bill Brooks" , "Laura Griffin" , "Lynda Anderson" , "Wade" , "Mike Nave" , "Liz Aman" , "Jeff Cady" , "Karla Taylor" , "Bernice Mitchell" , "Barb Landers" , "Vickie Lair" , "Steven Fuller" , "Ed Harris" , "Donna Hauser" , "Angie Brooks" , "Karen" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cherokeoil@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 28 Sep 2000 12:25:28 EDT --part1_6.c08c83a.2704caf8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_6.c08c83a.2704caf8_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (rly-ye02.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.199]) by air-ye04.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.15) with ESMTP; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:12:56 -0400 Received: from coop.crn.org (coop.crn.org [198.209.95.1]) by rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:12:25 2000 Received: from main (ppp24.crn.org [208.129.0.152]) by coop.crn.org (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA18514; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:09:19 -0500 "Shawna Forsythe" , "Scott Duncan" , "Sarah Aman" , "Roger Redpath" , "Robert Phillips" , "Debbie Graber" , "William Wolfe" , "Greg Sturgen" , "Glen" , "D J Barnett" , "Wade" , "Steven Fuller" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal - September 20, 2000 Dear friend of liberty, Senator Jack Reed (RI) introduced S. 2099 in the U.S. Senate on February 24, 2000. Senators Charles Schumer (NY) and Frank Lautenberg (NJ) are cosponsors of the bill. S. 2099 would amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to require the registration of all handguns, both newly-purchased and currently-owned handguns, with the federal government. Current owners would be required to register their handguns by submitting an application with a photograph and fingerprints and pay a tax within one year after the enactment of S. 2099. The information submitted by owners of handguns would be kept in a central-government database known as the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record maintained by the Secretary of the Treasury. Any law-abiding citizen who owns a handgun and does not want to be tracked by this government database had better carefully read the "Transfer Rule" section of this bill, which states he or she "shall register such handgun"..."upon the transfer of such handgun before such 1 year anniversary date." In other words, you will be required to register handguns you no longer own. Gotcha! Gun makers would be assessed a $50.00 tax per gun manufactured. This on the manufacturer, as do all such taxes on the production of goods, will be passed on to the consumer as an increase in the purchase price. S. 2099 is currently in the U.S. Senate Committee on Finance. We need to make sure that S. 2099 doesn't make it out of committee. Even though S. 2099 has only two cosponsors, it is, nonetheless, a pending bill. As I wrote in my last update, anything is possible during the last weeks of a congressional session. Therefore, we need to tell our U.S. senators we are aware of S. 2099 and that we strongly oppose it. Go to http://www.thelibertycommittee.org and click on S. 2099 in the Self Defense section, then click on Take Action Here! to express your opinion about S. 2099 to your two U.S. senators. Kent Snyder The Liberty Committee http://www.thelibertycommittee.org SUBSCRIBE and UNSUBSCRIBE directions: To SUBSCRIBE, please go to http://www.thelibertycommittee.org and click Join. To UNSUBSCRIBE, please Mailto:majordomo-libertystudycommittee@mjx.libertystudy.org with the words unsubscribe LibertyStudyCommittee on the first line of the body of the message. Please leave the rest of the message blank. --part1_6.c08c83a.2704caf8_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #634 Date: 28 Sep 2000 11:31:00 -0500 >Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:17:51 -0700 (PDT) >From: Ronald Schrotter >Subject: MtMan-List: contact for Bob Schmidt > >Can any of the brothers out there tell me if Bob >Schmidt from Montana is still making saddles and such, >and if so how can I contact him. Thanks in advance, DOG > Bob still does saddle work, and he lives in Hamilton, MT (actually near Corvallis) He also does footwear. He made me a pair of outstanding straight last brogans a couple of years ago. His email address is bobschmidt@cybernet1.com. Tell him hello for me. HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Bob Schmidt Date: 28 Sep 2000 11:32:01 -0500 >Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:17:51 -0700 (PDT) >From: Ronald Schrotter >Subject: MtMan-List: contact for Bob Schmidt > >Can any of the brothers out there tell me if Bob >Schmidt from Montana is still making saddles and such, >and if so how can I contact him. Thanks in advance, DOG > Bob still does saddle work, and he lives in Hamilton, MT (actually near Corvallis) He also does footwear. He made me a pair of outstanding straight last brogans a couple of years ago. His email address is bobschmidt@cybernet1.com. Tell him hello for me. At last report, his place was untouched by the fires. HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Industrial Revolution Date: 28 Sep 2000 11:38:06 -0500 Thanks. I stand corrected. However, I still contend that the Industrial Revolution was underway during the fur trade era. HBC >Henry, > >Just one thing I would like to correct in your post about the Industrial >Revolution. Eli Whitney did not introduce interchangeable parts, (This is a >fallacy that was taught in history classes and still believed by many >people.) He only talked about interchangeable parts as a sales promotion for >his gun manufacturing. He was not able to achieve this until long after many >others had already achieved interchangability. In order to get government >contracts for arms he boasted of complete parts interchangablility, but was >not able to fulfill these contracts. > >YMOS, >Harddog ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. Date: 28 Sep 2000 10:49:38 -0600 Cherokeoil, How the HECK does this belong on this list! I, for one, don't care to see this garbage. I'd much rather share a camp with a PAGAN who cares about his environment than a CHRISTIAN who only worries about giving "lost" souls a chance to know the "lord". Give us all a break. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Cherokeoil@aol.com [SMTP:Cherokeoil@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:21 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. > > Subj: Take a good look at this > Date: 00-09-17 00:15:40 EDT > From: cedric@crn.org (cedric) > > >Subject: Take a good look at this > > > > > > > > > Read & Weep! > > > > > > > > > > > >CBS will be forced to discontinue "Touched by an Angel" for > > >using the word God in every program. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Firelighting Date: 28 Sep 2000 10:10:01 -0700 (PDT) --0-740759355-970161001=:3556 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Note: forwarded message attached. ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ --0-740759355-970161001=:3556 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Apparently-To: deafstones@yahoo.com via web4501.mail.yahoo.com Return-Path: X-Track: 1: 40 Received: from poste.uqac.uquebec.ca (EHLO uqac.uquebec.ca) (132.212.11.73) by mta316.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Sep 2000 09:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by uqac.uquebec.ca (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id JAA07389 for primitive-skills-group-outgoing; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:39:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: poste.uqac.uquebec.ca: majordom set sender to owner-primitive-skills-group@uqac.uquebec.ca using -f Received: from tweli.aber.ac.uk (tweli.aber.ac.uk [144.124.16.41]) by uqac.uquebec.ca (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA07385 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcdjjb.dbs.aber.ac.uk ([144.124.112.238] helo=daffodil) by tweli.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 13edyd-0002xa-00 for primitive-skills-group@uqac.uquebec.ca; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:43:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <39D35945.14916.530CE06@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-primitive-skills-group@uqac.uquebec.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-To: primitive-skills-group@uqac.uquebec.ca Content-Length: 1363 Lifted from Usenet:- does this sound rather like a floppy fire-hole to anyone else? ***************************** I thought this might be of interest:- We had no matches in those days; so we had to make our fires by striking white indian flint or by filling a buckskin with dry, rotton wood or tree canker - touchwood - and then rubbing it up and down a sinew bow string until it got hot and started an ember in the touchwood. We had a Professional "fire man" with the tribe, a man whose business it was to carry fire with him from camp to camp and sell it to the members of the tribe when they were ready to make their fires. he carried the fire in a hollow birch log about two feet long. He would start and ember and then put in a lot of touchwood and strap the log [covered in buckskin] to his horse and carry it for a day or so without having to bother about it again. We youngsters used to like to see him open it; it looked like a quiet, glowing little furnace, as he placed himself in the middle of the camp and started to dole out his embers to those who wanted to start their fires. from Long Lance - the autobiography of Chief Buffalo Child Long Lance, a Blackfoot Indian. Published by ABACUS ISBN 0 349 12209 --0-740759355-970161001=:3556-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Industrial Revolution Date: 28 Sep 2000 12:12:08 -0500 "Thanks. I stand corrected. However, I still contend that the Industrial Revolution was underway during the fur trade era." HBC Henry, Yes, you are correct that the Industrial Revolution was underway during the fur trade era. It spread here from England and Europe. I just took exception with the old notion that we can credit Eli Whitney with the actual development of interchangeable parts. Many people forget that, during the RMFT era, many great and wonderous things were being developed in the Eastern part of this country. YMOS, Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 28 Sep 2000 13:34:31 EDT Why would a "law abiding citizen" fear guns being tracked? Unless, 1) s/he had something to hide; 2) s/he wasn't really a "law abiding citizen, or 3) s/he was paranoid about our own government. Maybe this would assist in keeping guns from "the bad guys." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 28 Sep 2000 11:28:33 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:34 AM > Why would a "law abiding citizen" fear guns being tracked? Unless, 1) s/he > had something to hide; 2) s/he wasn't really a "law abiding citizen, or 3) > s/he was paranoid about our own government. > Maybe this would assist in keeping guns from "the bad guys." This also has no place on this list. No way to stop pro or anti but this is the History List, not the "Liberal Feel Good list" or the "Nuke Em All and Let God Sort It Out List". Since you asked, let's ask the question, How does it keep guns out of the hands of the bad guys? And how does it do that without infringing on your Right to Possess a means of protecting you and your family from bad guys that don't obey the law, much less your way of life and your government from despots and tyrants who Know What is best for you? That's why this is not appropriate for this list. Take it else where. BTW, What dies SFH stand for. I remain.....Sir or Madam, YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 28 Sep 2000 14:59:46 EDT In a message dated 9/28/00 10:35:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Huss931@aol.com writes: << s/he was paranoid about our own government. >> THIS HAS NO PLACE ON THIS LIST, BUT, SINCE YOU BROUGHT IT UP.... Thinking you answered your own question there.. you SHOULD BE danged paranoid about any government that wants to track gun owners. All it would take is another law at a later date that banned the possession of guns, and you can bet your bottom dollar that since they have the addresses where the guns are, they'll come get 'em, and then who is gonna have the guns? Only the gov't and the 'bad guys' as you call them... Check out what has happened in the UK and Australia.... GET A GRIP FRIEND!!!! Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: take a good look at this Date: 28 Sep 2000 13:29:11 -0500 What does a discussion of a TV show like Touched by an Angel have to do with this list? Too bad this list is not manually moderated. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 28 Sep 2000 14:08:01 -0500 LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/28/00 10:35:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Huss931@aol.com > writes: > > << s/he was paranoid about our own government. >> > > THIS HAS NO PLACE ON THIS LIST, BUT, SINCE YOU BROUGHT IT UP.... > > Thinking you answered your own question there.. you SHOULD BE danged > paranoid about any government that wants to track gun owners. If we all were paranoid about what the government is doing we would all be living in the mountains....er...never mind! B^) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife query Date: 28 Sep 2000 14:18:10 -0500 I believe there is some information in "Firearms Traps and Tools of the Mountain Man" regarding the V&R marking. northwoods ----- Original Message ----- Sent: September 27, 2000 3:24 PM > Friends, > A student of mine showed me a photo of a knife with a antler handle. The > blade has an interesting marking near the base. There is a "V" and an "R" > with a crown in between, indicating that it was possibly made in the time > of Victoria. The manufacturer's name, Thornhill(?), is also stamped into > the base of the blade. The knife is about 15 inches in overall length. > Does anyone know of a English knife maker with a name similar to that, and > is anyone aware of reproductions being made of this maker's work? > > Please reply. > > Cheers, > HBC > > ********************************** > Henry B. Crawford > Curator of History > Museum of Texas Tech University > Box 43191 > Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 28 Sep 2000 16:09:03 EDT << s/he was paranoid about our own government. >> > > THIS HAS NO PLACE ON THIS LIST, BUT, SINCE YOU BROUGHT IT UP.... > > GET A GRIP FRIEND!!!! Well, the bait was thrown out, and at least 3 suckers have taken it so far. Consequently, everyone else will now feel obligated to defend their own thoughts. That is why whenever you receive one of these messages, it is considered SPAM. It's only purpose is to incite friction among us, and we need to stick together. It also wastes considerable bandwidth and resources in doing so. This same bill was on this list less than a month ago, and nothing was resolved then. Send a private email to the do-gooder who thought he was doing you a favor, and tell him what an inconsiderate A-hole he is. Then, if you are so inclined to debate your freedoms with someone who wants to argue with you, join the RKBA list, or any of the others that deal specifically with the discussion of those topics. You owe it to yourself as a private, gun-owning citizen to keep track of what is happening. Unfortunately, this is not the place to do it................... I told you last time that this particular bill has been tabled in committee. Here is a personal email from a friend of mine who is a current director of the NRA, so you can read it for yourself........ -------------------begin quoted message------------------------------ Yeah, this thing has become one of those "urban Myths" except that there actually IS an S 2099, but it is going absolutely nowhere, according to NRA staff and out chief lobbyist Jim Baker. It was DOA when Jack Reed (the little pimple) filed it earlier this year. He promises to re-file it in the next Congress... provided the good folks of Rhode Island re-elect the little shit... and then it may grow legs IF the Democrats take back Congress and win the White House... -----------------end quoted message------------------------------------- I hope this is sufficient to kill this thread forever. Thanks Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" Date: 28 Sep 2000 16:16:30 EDT UNSUBSCRIBE HIST_TEXT-DIGEST _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 28 Sep 2000 13:32:22 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 1:16 PM > UNSUBSCRIBE HIST_TEXT-DIGEST To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xmission.com, where the body of the message consists of unsubscribe hist_text your_email_address. or unsubscribe hist_text-digest your_email_address. depending on which version you are subscribed to. DON'T send these administrative requests to the mailing list ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 28 Sep 2000 14:21:44 -0700 "THIS HAS NO PLACE ON THIS LIST" Nuff Said...... Pp in Az > > > THIS HAS NO PLACE ON THIS LIST, BUT, SINCE YOU BROUGHT IT UP.... > > Thinking you answered your own question there.. you SHOULD BE danged > paranoid about any government that wants to track gun owners. All it would > take is another law at a later date that banned the possession of guns, and > you can bet your bottom dollar that since they have the addresses where the > guns are, they'll come get 'em, and then who is gonna have the guns? Only > the gov't and the 'bad guys' as you call them... Check out what has happened > in the UK and Australia.... > GET A GRIP FRIEND!!!! Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 28 Sep 2000 15:25:13 -0700 Huss, My answer is (C)...I don't trust my government. Why is my government afraid of me being armed, and why do they want to know about it? In States where concealed carry is allowed, the crime rates go down, and stay down. Citizens are safer when criminals do not know who is armed. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 28 Sep 2000 17:13:53 -0600 Gentlemen, If you wish to discuss this why not take it to another forum, or at the very least be polite enough to reply to each other off list so the rest of us won't have to keep hitting the delete button. YMHOS, David Mullen -- David Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs, NM 87025 email- dmullen@jemez.com (505) 829-3212 Randal J Bublitz wrote: > Huss, My answer is (C)...I don't trust my government. Why is my > government afraid of me being armed, and why do they want to know about > it? In States where concealed carry is allowed, the crime rates go down, > and stay down. Citizens are safer when criminals do not know who is > armed. hardtack > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 28 Sep 2000 16:27:26 -0700 --------------A8429812B9442D1CFD17D4D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 10-4 pp in az.... David Mullen wrote: > Gentlemen, > > If you wish to discuss this why not take it to another forum, or at the very > least be polite enough to reply to each other off list so the rest of us > won't have to keep hitting the delete button. > > YMHOS, > David Mullen > --------------A8429812B9442D1CFD17D4D6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 10-4

pp in az....

David Mullen wrote:

Gentlemen,

If you wish to discuss this why not take it to another forum, or at the very
least be polite enough to reply to each other off list so the rest of us
won't have to keep hitting the delete button.

YMHOS,
David Mullen
 

  --------------A8429812B9442D1CFD17D4D6-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charlie's email Date: 28 Sep 2000 20:37:41 -0400 The email addy for Charlie is bwmmag@ris.net the web page for Backwoodsman is http://www.purelight.com/bwmmag/publish.htm Hope this helps! Watch yer top knot! Kevin Are the Indigo Girls the ladies who put the "point" marks on Hudson's Bay blankets? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: take a good look at this Date: 30 Sep 2000 19:47:15 -0400 didnt realise you were on this list too frank---glad to have you aboard---cpt l is also here along with lanny and many of the amm BROTHERS--- NUFF SAID'''' "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hian Leng PANG" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charlie's email Date: 29 Sep 2000 08:54:12 +0800 Hi, Thanks to all who responded. Reason I asked was because I saw a beautiful knife for sale from Ritchie's artifacts at the back of the mag, but has not recieved any news. Thanks! Pang "Possum Hunter" @lists.xmission.com on 09/29/2000 08:37:41 AM Please respond to hist_text@lists.xmission.com Sent by: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com cc: The email addy for Charlie is bwmmag@ris.net the web page for Backwoodsman is http://www.purelight.com/bwmmag/publish.htm Hope this helps! Watch yer top knot! Kevin Are the Indigo Girls the ladies who put the "point" marks on Hudson's Bay blankets? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm Date: 28 Sep 2000 20:11:51 -0500 >Book 2 has a length article on making horns, and is worth a read. The whole series is worth looking into. You can get >the whole series from Scurlock publishing, I believe their website is www.muzzmag.com. Check out these horns; http://www.cit.state.vt.us/vhs/precious/phorn60.htm http://www.tfaoi.com/newsm1/n1m617.htm and these sites too; http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/horn/hornhome.html http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/4034/horn.html This one a video on hornmaking; http://www.blackpowderjournal.com/Vol2No4/Articles/BPJ24-4.htm ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 29 Sep 2000 00:21:58 -0400 (EDT) How do the following compare in field tests as all-in-one patch lube, fouling softener, bore protector and seasoner? Jojoba oil (since whale oil is very scarce-expensive) per John Kramer. extra virgin (100% pure) olive oil per Capt.L buffalo grease-tallow (20 years success per Buck). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 28 Sep 2000 21:50:13 -0700 > Jojoba oil (since whale oil is very scarce-expensive) per John Kramer. I use it along with olive oil for lube in the lock and it will work for patch lube too. > > extra virgin (100% pure) olive oil per Capt.L I also use bear grease for patch lube and it works in Nov. elk hunting in Idaho (two elk, two years) > > buffalo grease-tallow (20 years success per Buck). Don't have any buffalo grease but it will work too. How in the heck did they shoot mls all those hundreds of years with such success not having soap and water to clean with out on the prarie's and way out on the fringe of now where? How did they lube their patches without all the modern lubes you buy at Wally World and etc? How did they clean their guns and make them last hundreds of years without wire brushes fitting the ends of their aluminum ram rods? Nautral works just fine. Probably differing in each gun. Find something natural that works in your gun and when things get a bit sticky during a long shoot, wet a patch on your tongue and wipe the bore a bit and go back at it. Save your money for that really nice Jacky Brown or ? rather than all the madison avenue hype stuff off the shelf. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 28 Sep 2000 22:54:35 -0700 Hear, hear, Capt. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 9:50 PM > > Jojoba oil (since whale oil is very scarce-expensive) per John Kramer. > > I use it along with olive oil for lube in the lock and it will work for > patch lube too. > > > > > extra virgin (100% pure) olive oil per Capt.L > > I also use bear grease for patch lube and it works in Nov. elk hunting in > Idaho (two elk, two years) > > > > > buffalo grease-tallow (20 years success per Buck). > > Don't have any buffalo grease but it will work too. > > How in the heck did they shoot mls all those hundreds of years with such > success not having soap and water to clean with out on the prarie's and way > out on the fringe of now where? How did they lube their patches without all > the modern lubes you buy at Wally World and etc? How did they clean their > guns and make them last hundreds of years without wire brushes fitting the > ends of their aluminum ram rods? > > Nautral works just fine. Probably differing in each gun. Find something > natural that works in your gun and when things get a bit sticky during a > long shoot, wet a patch on your tongue and wipe the bore a bit and go back > at it. Save your money for that really nice Jacky Brown or ? rather than all > the madison avenue hype stuff off the shelf. I remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Galac11@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 29 Sep 2000 09:22:28 EDT In a message dated 9/28/00 9:44:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: > > How in the heck did they shoot mls all those hundreds of years with such > success not having soap and water to clean with out on the prarie's and way > out on the fringe of now where? How did they lube their patches without all > the modern lubes you buy at Wally World and etc? How did they clean their > guns and make them last hundreds of years without wire brushes fitting the > ends of their aluminum ram rods? > Cleaning- with boiling water and a patch on the ramrod ; Patch lube was with any type of lard/fat or with plain old spit if nothing else was handy. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: here too Date: 29 Sep 2000 08:37:58 -0500 Thanks, Hawk I have been on the amm list a long time but seldom place messages. The reason is that I am not expert on the subject of authenticity for the RMFT. And, believe it or not, do know when to keep my e-mouth shut. My persona has long been a Rev. Rifleman. Lot of what I have long believed to be acceptable practices for rendezvous re-enactement, I have found is just an easy way out of doing it right [i.e. artificial sinew]. I seldom get to r'vous anymore due to family responsibilities. But I still try to think and behave as a member of the 'brotherhood' might. My pack basket and flinter rifle are only a step away from the computer. On top of my monitor is a replica ink pot with a quill pen in it to remind me that we do not need computers to create and communicate. To paraphrase the great poet, Robert Service 'tis but three days from civilized man to savage'. I believe strongly that learning and maintaining outdoors survival skills is vital to understanding just how important freedom is and the struggles that brought us from the 1700s to now. Regards, Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Billy Corgan" Subject: MtMan-List: missouri river/ fur trade Date: 29 Sep 2000 10:52:33 EDT Hello, I am a junior Environmental Policy major at Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, Ohio. I am currently writing a paper for my Native American History class. My topic is the Ecological Impacts of the Fur Trade on the Missouri River. I am focusing on what the fur trade of the 19th century did to the river, mainly due to overhunting by the natives and the trading companies who were out to make a profit. Any information anyone can provide me with to help me would be greatly appreciated. I am looking for web sites, government documents, books, magazines, and any other media which could be of help. Thank you for your time, Chris Riddle Junior Environmental Policy and Analysis Bowling Green State University _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 01 Oct 2000 10:01:08 -0400 On Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:21:58 -0400 (EDT) JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) writes: > >How do the following compare in field tests as all-in-one patch lube, >fouling softener, bore protector and seasoner? > >Jojoba oil (since whale oil is very scarce-expensive) per John Kramer. > >extra virgin (100% pure) olive oil per Capt.L > >buffalo grease-tallow (20 years success per Buck). > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >from Michigan >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ guy---I have used all three of these lubes when testing several years ago and all are good hunting lubes and are very comparable in their slickness if you used and each shot with the same powder charge and patch material what you will find is not much of a variance in point of impact---you will need to clean between shots as i said these are primarily hunting lubes and not primary target lubes they will build a slight bit more hard residue in the bore than a target lube which keeps the fouling softer and easier to remove--- the jobola oil is close to sperm but not quite the same---sperm is a better oil and a bit slicker and finer lube in my estimation ----do the slide test (piece of glass and a 1.00 sq piece of steel---I use a gage block--- set glass at about 30 degree angle---apply the oil and compare the speed of the sliding of the block---as far as stacking the 3 in a order of preference i would go with them in this order: 1. Jojoba oil (since whale oil is very scarce-expensive) per John Kramer. 2. buffalo grease-tallow (20 years success per Buck). 3. extra virgin (100% pure) olive oil per Capt.L as for comparing accuracy they are about the same not enough difference to worry about in my estimation. and as a final note there isnt that much difference in any of them when comparing them all 3 are well tested and well used as lubes for hunting---again note i say hunting---you will have to clean if you shoot more than a couple of shot at a time with some guns to get them to shooth the same point of impact. # 2 will be a bit more of a sludge builder than 1 or 3 but it is still a good hunting lube also all these lubes will work better with a deep rifleing---they work good with shallow rifleing but you will see a different variation if you shoot more than 2 or 3 shots without cleaning---this is just from my experience so take it from there????(GBG) YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river/ fur trade Date: 29 Sep 2000 10:23:52 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: September 29, 2000 9:52 AM >I am focusing on what the fur trade of the > 19th century did to the river, mainly due to overhunting by the natives and > the trading companies who were out to make a profit. Any information anyone > can provide me with to help me would be greatly appreciated. One book that I have in my library which deals with this subject is: KEEPERS OF THE GAME INDIAN-ANIMAL RELATIONSHIPS AND THE FUR TRADE by Calvin Martin University Of California, 1982. Hope this might be of some help... northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Firelighting Date: 29 Sep 2000 09:36:55 -0600 Well, somebody sure knows how to spot unadulterated *baloney* when they see it. Long Lance was not a Blackfoot Indian, or a Cherokee Indian, but a fraud & imposter. I know because his story comes from my neck of the woods--Calgary, Alberta. For the whole story of "Chief Buffalo Child Long Lance", aka Sylvester Long, look at the Glenbow Museum's info about him at: http://www.glenbow.org/libhtm/mar19.htm#llance There's more info about Long Lance and historian Donald Smith's book on him here: http://www.wherecalgary.com/Features/BackPage/6-6980.html If Long Lance's book has been recently republished (it was originally printed in 1928), the publisher owes it to readers to put out the true facts about the author, since they've been well-known for over 50 years. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Firelighting Date: 29 Sep 2000 08:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for confirming my suspicions. It does sound like a tall tale. --- Angela Gottfred wrote: > Well, somebody sure knows how to spot unadulterated > *baloney* when they see > it. Long Lance was not a Blackfoot Indian, or a > Cherokee Indian, but a > fraud & imposter. I know because his story comes > from my neck of the > woods--Calgary, Alberta. > > For the whole story of "Chief Buffalo Child Long > Lance", aka Sylvester > Long, look at the Glenbow Museum's info about him > at: > http://www.glenbow.org/libhtm/mar19.htm#llance > > There's more info about Long Lance and historian > Donald Smith's book on him > here: > http://www.wherecalgary.com/Features/BackPage/6-6980.html > > If Long Lance's book has been recently republished > (it was originally > printed in 1928), the publisher owes it to readers > to put out the true > facts about the author, since they've been > well-known for over 50 years. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river/ fur trade Date: 29 Sep 2000 09:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Shepard Krech, an American anthropologist, "The Ecological Indian: Myth and History", published by W.W. Norton This book examines the practices of various throught the continent. Some chapters may interest you. The chapter on the buffalo is especially enlightening to me. > >I am focusing on what the fur trade of the > > 19th century did to the river, mainly due to > overhunting by the natives > and > > the trading companies who were out to make a > profit. Any information > anyone > > can provide me with to help me would be greatly > appreciated. > > One book that I have in my library which deals with > this subject is: > KEEPERS OF THE GAME INDIAN-ANIMAL RELATIONSHIPS AND > THE FUR TRADE by Calvin > Martin University Of California, 1982. > Hope this might be of some help... > northwoods ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Guns Date: 29 Sep 2000 09:45:15 -0700 On Wed, 20 September 2000, "harddog" wrote: > > I hope you don't mind if I get in on this one. The fit and finish on trade > guns, especially Northwest Trade Guns, depends on the period of manufacture. > Because they were the cheapest guns made the early Northwest Trade Guns were > shipped in the white, without even any finish or stain on the stocks and no > finish on the barrel or lock. > > > YMOS, > Harddog For fast reference when the subject is tradeguns, go to: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/weapons.htm Will have to check on finishes on this page, Buck should be home late tonight or Sat. morn, went to Capt. John Abbott's museum in the Bahamas on research on period locks and sailing equipage. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. Date: 29 Sep 2000 12:47:17 EDT In a message dated 9/28/00, louis.l.sickler@lmco.com writes: << How the HECK does this belong on this list! I, for one, don't care to see this garbage. I'd much rather share a camp with a PAGAN who cares about his environment than a CHRISTIAN who only worries about giving "lost" souls a chance to know the "lord". >> Well, Lou I must admit this probably isn't the forum for this sort of post. But I don't think it's really a matter of "Christians saving lost souls" as much as a matter of our 1st Amendment rights being slowly eroded away. I am by no means a devout Christian, but I am outraged that this sort of thing can be banned from our TV and then replaced with something just short of soft porn. Is the 1st Amendment to be modified to read "Freedom of Liberal Thought and Speech" Just something to think about! Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. OFF Topic Date: 29 Sep 2000 10:58:07 -0600 longshot, I was thinking more along the lines of replacing Sunday morning TV with Ted Nugent's Spirit of the Wild --- now that's religion! Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com [SMTP:LODGEPOLE@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 10:47 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. > > In a message dated 9/28/00, louis.l.sickler@lmco.com writes: > > << How the HECK does this belong on this list! I, for one, don't care to > see > this garbage. I'd much rather share a camp with a PAGAN who cares about > his > environment than a CHRISTIAN who only worries about giving "lost" souls a > chance to know the "lord". >> > > Well, Lou I must admit this probably isn't the forum for this sort of > post. > But I don't think it's really a matter of "Christians saving lost souls" > as > much as a matter of our 1st Amendment rights being slowly eroded away. I > am > by no means a devout Christian, but I am outraged that this sort of thing > can > be banned from our TV and then replaced with something just short of soft > porn. Is the 1st Amendment to be modified to read "Freedom of Liberal > Thought > and Speech" Just something to think about! > > Longshot > > "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" > http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. OFF Topic Date: 29 Sep 2000 13:10:24 EDT In a message dated 9/29/00 9:59:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, louis.l.sickler@lmco.com writes: << I was thinking more along the lines of replacing Sunday morning TV with Ted Nugent's Spirit of the Wild --- now that's religion! >> I concede! Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river/ fur trade Date: 29 Sep 2000 12:59:47 -0500 Why do you begin with a negative premise? It sounds to me like you have an agenda to put forward based on preconceived notions. John... At 10:52 AM 9/29/00 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, I am a junior Environmental Policy major at Bowling Green State >University in Bowling Green, Ohio. I am currently writing a paper for my >Native American History class. My topic is the Ecological Impacts of the >Fur Trade on the Missouri River. I am focusing on what the fur trade of >the 19th century did to the river, mainly due to overhunting by the >natives and the trading companies who were out to make a profit. Any >information anyone can provide me with to help me would be greatly >appreciated. I am looking for web sites, government documents, books, >magazines, and any other media which could be of help. Thank you for your >time, >Chris Riddle >Junior >Environmental Policy and Analysis >Bowling Green State University >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence." Napoleon Bonaparte. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 29 Sep 2000 13:25:28 -0500 If you really want a period correct grease for a Rocky Mountain fur=20 trapper: render down some beaver tail. It's what they had the most of. If you need a period correct black powder solvent for cleaning read my=20 previous posts on the subject in the archive. Water also works. My patented "Genuine Two Ball Black Powder Solvent" is guaranteed to be the= =20 cheapest and most readily available anywhere. John... At 12:21 AM 9/29/00 -0400, you wrote: >How do the following compare in field tests as all-in-one patch lube, >fouling softener, bore protector and seasoner? > >Jojoba oil (since whale oil is very scarce-expensive) per John Kramer. > >extra virgin (100% pure) olive oil per Capt.L > >buffalo grease-tallow (20 years success per Buck). > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >from Michigan >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 29 Sep 2000 02:42:44 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C029BE.F21102A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Our friend PoorBoy wrote: One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, = not finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung = from it.. . . . Having tried this with a rawhide knife sheath on one short horse ride = and caught my knife falling about a half dozen times, it makes me wonder = what great force those old timers had that I aint got. How they kept = that or a felt hat fer any length of time without tieing it on is beyond = me. Allen and Crazy can attest that I am experienced at picking my hat = up off a the ground from a tall animal. WY ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C029BE.F21102A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Our friend PoorBoy wrote:

One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were = rawhide, not=20 finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from = it.. .=20 . .

Having tried this with a rawhide knife sheath on one short horse ride = and=20 caught my knife falling about a half dozen times, it makes me wonder = what great=20 force those old timers had that I aint got. How they kept that or a felt = hat fer=20 any length of time without tieing it on is beyond me. Allen and Crazy = can attest=20 that I am experienced at picking my hat up off a the ground from a tall=20 animal.

 

WY

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C029BE.F21102A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 29 Sep 2000 15:04:05 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C02A26.82999140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our friend PoorBoy wrote: One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, not finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from it.. . . . Having tried this with a rawhide knife sheath on one short horse ride and caught my knife falling about a half dozen times, it makes me wonder what great force those old timers had that I aint got. How they kept that or a felt hat fer any length of time without tieing it on is beyond me. Allen and Crazy can attest that I am experienced at picking my hat up off a the ground from a tall animal. WY If the rawhide knife sheath is made correctly for the knife it will not fall out. If your hat fits correctly the hat will stay on your head. Walt Orginal Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C02A26.82999140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Our friend PoorBoy = wrote:

One could further look at the fact = that most knife sheaths were rawhide, not finished leather, and designed to = be thrust into the belt, not hung from it.. . . .

Having tried this with a rawhide = knife sheath on one short horse ride and caught my knife falling about a half = dozen times, it makes me wonder what great force those old timers had that I = aint got. How they kept that or a felt hat fer any length of time without = tieing it on is beyond me. Allen and Crazy can attest that I am experienced at = picking my hat up off a the ground from a tall animal.

WY

 

If= the rawhide knife sheath is made correctly for the knife it will not fall = out.  If your hat fits correctly the = hat will stay on your head.

 

Wa= lt

Orginal Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837

Yellowsto= ne Canoe Camp

On the = Lewis & Clark Trail

Park = City, Montana

<= span class=3DEmailStyle16> 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C02A26.82999140-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. Date: 29 Sep 2000 16:14:16 -0500 > > How the HECK does this belong on this list! I, for one, don't care to see > this garbage. I'd much rather share a camp with a PAGAN who cares about his > environment than a CHRISTIAN who only worries about giving "lost" souls a > chance to know the "lord". > > Maybe those Christians know something about the environment in which we will spend eternity. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river/ fur trade Date: 29 Sep 2000 17:22:07 EDT drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com writes: > I am focusing on what the fur trade of the 9th century did to the river, mainly due to overhunting by the natives and the trading companies who were out to make a profit. Any information anyone can provide me with to help me would be greatly appreciated.>> Chris, I just returned from the Fur Trade Symposium at Fort Union in Williston, ND. I think there are several folks there at Fort Union National Historic Site that can give you everything you want. Here are a few websites that should get you to some of the very knowledgeable folks at the fort Fort Union Trading Post and links :. Here is Randy Kane's e-mail at the fort, he was the project person/host for the Symposium: randy_kane@nps.gov. You might also try to contact the Museum of the Fur Trade: THE MUSEUM OF THE FUR TRADE . Their e-mail is: museum@furtrade.org. This was one of the best historic symposiums/conferences I have attended. I highly recommend it to everyone interested. It is held randomly every few years when someone volunteers to host it. Fort Union hosted it this year. Tentatively Fort Benton has volunteered to host it in 2003 and The Museum of the Fur Trade (Chadron, NE) has volunteered to host it in 2006. Good Luck. I remain.... YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FSLark@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. Date: 29 Sep 2000 17:22:20 EDT Hello the List, I rarely post since I have far more to learn than teach to this list, but I really get tired of this urban legend. The petition occured in1975 and was denied on 1st amendment grounds. In almost every case, I have found these "warnings" (be it virus alerts or warnings about political events) to be distorted or downright false. Do yourself a favor and bookmark one of the Urban Legends sites and begin checking them out before you pass them on. I would much rather read about what to lubricate patches for a muzzeloader with. Frank CBS will be forced to discontinue "Touched by an Angel" for > >using the word God in every program. > >Madeline Murray O'Hare, an atheist, successfully managed > >to eliminate the use of Bible reading from public schools a > >few years ago. Now her organization has been granted a > >Federal Hearing on the same subject by the Federal > >Communications Commission (FCC) in Washington D.C. Their petition, > >Number 2493, would ultimately pave the way to stop the reading > >of the gospel of our Lord and Savior, on the airwaves of > >America. They got 287,000 signatures to back their stand! If this attempt is successful, all Sunday worship > >services being broadcast on the radio or by television will be > >stopped. This group is also campaigning to remove all Christmas programs and Christmas carols from public schools!! You > >as a Christian can help! We are praying for at least 1 million > >signatures. This would defeat their effort and show that there > >are many Christians alive, well and concerned about our country. > >As Christians we must unite on this. > > > >Please don't take this lightly. We ignored this lady once and > >lost prayer in our schools and in offices across the nation. > >Please stand up for your religious freedom and let your voice be > >heard. Together we can make a difference in our country while > >creating an opportunity for the lost to know the Lord. > >Please press "forward" and only delete out what is not needed, > >and forward this to everyone on your list. Now, please sign > >your name at the bottom. Don't delete anything, just go to the > >next number and type your name. > >Please do not sign jointly, such as Mr. & Mrs....Each person > >should sign his/her own name. > > > >Please e-mail this to everyone you know, and help us defeat this > >organization and keep the right of our freedom of religion. > >When you get to 1000 please email back to Lisa Norman. > > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 29 Sep 2000 17:46:43 -0700 Ok...I am here. Just busy. Work on the infamous tipi sight on mine. Hoping to get some of it on line this week..Right now it is over 10 megs big. And lots more to put on. Linda hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > lynda--- > same old tap tap tap---how you doing any new projects going----I got a > walk about stick about finished for the brother---bead weaving it and > have about 4 " done so far need to get it done befor i go to hunt to > suprise him---he has a hint i am making a walk about stick for him---- > > BTW I still have your unborn buffilo skin here---should send it to you > and then let the tradeing begin----nuff said----you'll love it--- > > YMHOSANT > =+= > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK > (C) > 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 > E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 > Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 29 Sep 2000 16:42:22 -0600 --------------C18779DFB7A22C84C34B6A6D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn, I afraid.... I must agree with Walt. Knife sheathes have a balance point in them. I always carry my knife in rawhide or half tanned leather. When building a sheath like this, put the knife in and find where the point where the knife leans over but doesn't fall out. Every knife is different and put a hole in the cover to mark it. Now, when you are done, put a leather wang through the hole and when putting the combination in side your belt, tie the wang around the belt. It always works for me. And impresses the green horns in camp when you hold up a knife in a sheath by the strap and it balances (just a little up is allways best) and doesn't fall out! mike. p.s. I think even the !837 book by Rex shows a small strap like this on a few belts. Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > Our friend PoorBoy wrote: > > One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were > rawhide, not finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the > belt, not hung from it.. . . . > > Having tried this with a rawhide knife sheath on one short horse ride > and caught my knife falling about a half dozen times, it makes me > wonder what great force those old timers had that I aint got. How they > kept that or a felt hat fer any length of time without tieing it on is > beyond me. Allen and Crazy can attest that I am experienced at picking > my hat up off a the ground from a tall animal. > > > > WY --------------C18779DFB7A22C84C34B6A6D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn,
    I afraid.... I must agree with Walt. Knife sheathes have a balance
point in them. I always carry my knife in rawhide or half tanned leather.
When building a sheath like this, put the knife in and find where the point
where the knife leans over but doesn't fall out. Every knife is different and
put a hole in the cover to mark it. Now, when you are done, put a leather
wang through the hole and when putting the combination in side your belt,
tie the wang around the belt. It always works for me. And impresses the
green horns in camp when you hold up a knife in a sheath by the strap and
it balances (just a little up is allways best) and doesn't fall out!
                                                                mike.
p.s. I think even the !837 book by Rex shows a small strap like this on
a few belts.

Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:

Our friend PoorBoy wrote:

One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, not finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from it.. . . .

Having tried this with a rawhide knife sheath on one short horse ride and caught my knife falling about a half dozen times, it makes me wonder what great force those old timers had that I aint got. How they kept that or a felt hat fer any length of time without tieing it on is beyond me. Allen and Crazy can attest that I am experienced at picking my hat up off a the ground from a tall animal.
 
 

WY

--------------C18779DFB7A22C84C34B6A6D-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 29 Sep 2000 15:38:12 -0700 (PDT) I believe the common practice is to wear the belt/sash OVER the rawhide sheath, not hang the sheath off the belt unless you have a very snug fit and don't mind using two hands to free the knife. Either way, the knife should cinch in the sheath. An alternative is a thong tie around the handle. --- Mike Moore wrote: > Wynn, > I afraid.... I must agree with Walt. Knife > sheathes have a balance > point in them. I always carry my knife in rawhide or > half tanned > leather. > When building a sheath like this, put the knife in > and find where the > point > where the knife leans over but doesn't fall out. > Every knife is > different and > put a hole in the cover to mark it. Now, when you > are done, put a > leather > wang through the hole and when putting the > combination in side your > belt, > tie the wang around the belt. It always works for > me. And impresses the > green horns in camp when you hold up a knife in a > sheath by the strap > and > it balances (just a little up is allways best) and > doesn't fall out! > > mike. > p.s. I think even the !837 book by Rex shows a small > strap like this on > a few belts. > > Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > > Our friend PoorBoy wrote: > > > > One could further look at the fact that most knife > sheaths were > > rawhide, not finished leather, and designed to be > thrust into the > > belt, not hung from it.. . . . > > > > Having tried this with a rawhide knife sheath on > one short horse ride > > and caught my knife falling about a half dozen > times, it makes me > > wonder what great force those old timers had that > I aint got. How they > > kept that or a felt hat fer any length of time > without tieing it on is > > beyond me. Allen and Crazy can attest that I am > experienced at picking > > my hat up off a the ground from a tall animal. > > > > > > > > WY > ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Porter Subject: MtMan-List: Care of new pine canteen. Date: 29 Sep 2000 18:11:55 -0500 Hallo round the fire! I have a question fer all you. I received a new tin-banded pine canteen from Jas. Townsend. I am in the process of varnishing it right now as the instruction sheet said. It also said that the average length a canteen lasted during the Rev. War was 3-6 months. Is that how long my canteen will last if I take good care of it? That seems awful short to me. Here's the major question: what can I do to make it last longer if possible? I don't know if it matters, but the inside is lined with brewer's pitch. YMHS Matt Porter ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. Date: 29 Sep 2000 17:23:18 -0600 Hang on jd: They come and go. Say you would have enjoyed the country I was hunting in last week end. There was the story about the Bloods jumping a hunting camp of Crow with only one getting away. A mountain man size chunk of paradise. A primitive buffalo and antelope run. With a nearby so called medicine wheel but which could be called equally a sun dance frame. Complete with a nearby village site and up above where we camped. Up on the rim screened by pine trees a large camp composed of tipi rings. Similar to the sight I saw when I was 16 on the South Pryor. Walt Orginal Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 01 Oct 2000 19:38:25 -0400 let us know when things settle down---got to get to work myself--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:46:43 -0700 Linda Holley writes: >Ok...I am here. Just busy. Work on the infamous tipi sight on mine. >Hoping >to get some of it on line this week..Right now it is over 10 megs big. > And >lots more to put on. > >Linda > >hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > >> lynda--- >> same old tap tap tap---how you doing any new projects going----I got >a >> walk about stick about finished for the brother---bead weaving it >and >> have about 4 " done so far need to get it done befor i go to hunt to >> suprise him---he has a hint i am making a walk about stick for >him---- >> >> BTW I still have your unborn buffilo skin here---should send it to >you >> and then let the tradeing begin----nuff said----you'll love it--- >> >> YMHOSANT >> =+= >> "HAWK" >> Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line >TRADEMARK >> (C) >> 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 >> E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 >> Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce >> >> ________________________________________________________________ >> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 29 Sep 2000 18:58:18 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C02A47.3B0B1300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What's wrong with tieing it? I have a large knive that I carry thrust = under my belt and I keep it from falling pretty simply. I attached a = whang of leather near the top of the sheath, and I tie it to my belt. = It seemed like a common sense thing to do and that big ol' Dennis Miles = Texian fighting knife stays with me. Lanney Ratcliff Our friend PoorBoy wrote: One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, = not finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung = from it.. . . . Having tried this with a rawhide knife sheath on one short horse ride = and caught my knife falling about a half dozen times, it makes me wonder = what great force those old timers had that I aint got. How they kept = that or a felt hat fer any length of time without tieing it on is beyond = me. Allen and Crazy can attest that I am experienced at picking my hat = up off a the ground from a tall animal. WY ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C02A47.3B0B1300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What's wrong with tieing=20 it?  I have a large knive that I carry thrust = under my=20 belt and I keep it from falling pretty simply.  I attached a whang = of=20 leather near the top of the sheath, and I tie it to my=20 belt.  It seemed like a common sense thing to do and that big ol' = Dennis=20 Miles Texian fighting knife stays with me.
Lanney = Ratcliff

Our friend PoorBoy wrote:

One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were = rawhide, not=20 finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from = it.. .=20 . .

Having tried this with a rawhide knife sheath on one short horse ride = and=20 caught my knife falling about a half dozen times, it makes me wonder = what great=20 force those old timers had that I aint got. How they kept that or a felt = hat fer=20 any length of time without tieing it on is beyond me. Allen and Crazy = can attest=20 that I am experienced at picking my hat up off a the ground from a tall=20 animal.

 

WY

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C02A47.3B0B1300-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 29 Sep 2000 17:12:27 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C02A38.715E1420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indians were the best mountain riders out there. They didn't wear hats = and a breech clout thong seemed to keep their rawhide knife sheath in = place. Most white guys (as indicated by Miller) had the sheath tied to = the belt with a thong. I'll bet they used a chin strap to keep their = hats on or else used their sash or scarf to tie it down over their ears. Larry Huber =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 1:42 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Our friend PoorBoy wrote: One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were = rawhide, not finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, = not hung from it.. . . . Having tried this with a rawhide knife sheath on one short horse ride = and caught my knife falling about a half dozen times, it makes me wonder = what great force those old timers had that I aint got. How they kept = that or a felt hat fer any length of time without tieing it on is beyond = me. Allen and Crazy can attest that I am experienced at picking my hat = up off a the ground from a tall animal. WY ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C02A38.715E1420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Indians were the best mountain riders = out=20 there.  They didn't wear hats and a breech clout thong seemed to = keep their=20 rawhide knife sheath in place.  Most white guys (as indicated by = Miller)=20 had the sheath tied to the belt with a thong.  I'll bet they used a = chin=20 strap to keep their hats on or else used their sash or scarf to tie it = down over=20 their ears.
 
Larry Huber
  
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wynn &=20 Gretchen Ormond
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Friday, September 29, = 2000 1:42=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Was Sashes = Now Knife=20 Sheaths

Our friend PoorBoy wrote:

One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were = rawhide,=20 not finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not = hung from=20 it.. . . .

Having tried this with a rawhide knife sheath on one short horse = ride and=20 caught my knife falling about a half dozen times, it makes me wonder = what=20 great force those old timers had that I aint got. How they kept that = or a felt=20 hat fer any length of time without tieing it on is beyond me. Allen = and Crazy=20 can attest that I am experienced at picking my hat up off a the ground = from a=20 tall animal.

 

WY

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C02A38.715E1420-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Care of new pine canteen. Date: 29 Sep 2000 17:18:01 -0700 Like a barrel, once the staves dry out, it won't hold water worth a darn. Some folks keep their canteens full of water and change it daily to keep the water fresh and the staves tight. Others store the canteen full of water but add a bit of ammonia to the water to keep to from getting "skunky". Obviously, you have to flush it well before refilling it and using it in the field. Others, like me, are just plain lazy and switched to copper. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 4:11 PM > Hallo round the fire! > I have a question fer all you. I received a new tin-banded pine canteen > from Jas. Townsend. I am in the process of varnishing it right now as > the instruction sheet said. It also said that the average length a > canteen lasted during the Rev. War was 3-6 months. Is that how long my > canteen will last if I take good care of it? That seems awful short to > me. Here's the major question: what can I do to make it last longer if > possible? I don't know if it matters, but the inside is lined with > brewer's pitch. > > YMHS > Matt Porter > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "wayne anderson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 30 Sep 2000 00:12:04 GMT Hawk, I've got the frizzen and frizzen spring installed and determined where I'm going to drill the tumbler hole. Question - measuring the tumbler with a vernier I find it is a few thousandths out of round. Any suggestions on how I can ture it up without a lath? Wayne _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Take a good look at this. Date: 29 Sep 2000 19:23:36 -0500 > > Say you would have enjoyed the country I was hunting in last week end. > There was the story about the Bloods jumping a hunting camp of Crow with > only one getting away. A mountain man size chunk of paradise. A primitive > buffalo and antelope run. With a nearby so called medicine wheel but which > could be called equally a sun dance frame. Complete with a nearby village > site and up above where we camped. Up on the rim screened by pine trees a > large camp composed of tipi rings. Similar to the sight I saw when I was 16 > on the South Pryor. > > > > > Yeah, that sounds like a good place to be. I'll be bowhunting behind the house Sunday. Wanna trade hunting grounds? ;-) J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river/ fur trade Date: 29 Sep 2000 18:47:23 -0600 Billy, Sounds like you are looking for someone to confirm a preconcived notion and validate pop cultured political correctness. I think you had better go back to the books and find out what realy made the fur trade and how the west was populated. Man is not the problem, the misconcived doctrins of men are the real ecological problem. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Billy Corgan" >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: missouri river/ fur trade >Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000, 8:52 AM > >Hello, I am a junior Environmental Policy major at Bowling Green State >University in Bowling Green, Ohio. I am currently writing a paper for my >Native American History class. My topic is the Ecological Impacts of the >Fur Trade on the Missouri River. I am focusing on what the fur trade of the >19th century did to the river, mainly due to overhunting by the natives and >the trading companies who were out to make a profit. Any information anyone >can provide me with to help me would be greatly appreciated. I am looking >for web sites, government documents, books, magazines, and any other media >which could be of help. Thank you for your time, >Chris Riddle >Junior >Environmental Policy and Analysis >Bowling Green State University >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: here too Date: 29 Sep 2000 20:26:25 -0500 Frank Fusco wrote:=20 "Thanks, Hawk I have been on the amm list a long time but seldom place messages. = The reason is that I am not expert on the subject of authenticity for the = RMFT." Frank Do you mean the AMM list or the Mountain Man List (History List)? I = don't believe you or Hawk are members of AMM but you should jump right = in with your thoughts and opinions on the Mountain Man List. You = lurking old timers can very often offer up some very interesting = perspectives on a variety of subjects. Warm up that keyboard and let = her fly. You might be surprised at how much knowledge you have about = RMFT authenticity. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 29 Sep 2000 19:07:21 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 6:22 AM > In a message dated 9/28/00 9:44:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: > Cleaning- with boiling water and a patch on the ramrod ; Patch lube was > with any > type of lard/fat or with plain old spit if nothing else was handy. Thanks for repeating what I said. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cleaning with boiling H2O Date: 29 Sep 2000 22:12:06 -0400 This cleaning with boiling water. I read in a few mags that you should not use boiling water as it expands the metal and may loosen the barrel plug at the base of the barrell. Is there any merit to this or is it just hogwash? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Care of new pine canteen. Date: 29 Sep 2000 19:33:03 -0700 It also said that the average length a > canteen lasted during the Rev. War was 3-6 months. Matt, Your canteen will last a lot longer unless you use it every day for 3-6 months in a war zone. That seems awful short to > me. Here's the major question: what can I do to make it last longer if > possible? I don't know if it matters, but the inside is lined with > brewer's pitch. If the seller didn't give you any directions, then I would suggest you empty it out when you are not using it. Keep it in a cool place after you have let it air out a bit and do not leave it in the sun empty! That should make it last a long time. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cleaning with boiling H2O Date: 29 Sep 2000 19:41:52 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 7:12 PM > This cleaning with boiling water. I read in a few mags that you should not > use boiling water as it expands the metal and may loosen the barrel plug at > the base of the barrell. Is there any merit to this or is it just hogwash? Merit or hogwash, cold water seems to work fine. Some times I use hot and it works fine. Grease good with almost any natural oil or grease after drying and check in a few days. Might be a bit of red on the rag but a bit more oil and that seems to be the end of it. Gun always goes off when it is reloaded, even when filled with water crossing a swamp. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cleaning with boiling H2O Date: 29 Sep 2000 19:50:44 -0700 I use hot, not boiling water...the reason...so the warmed metal will dry out better... I wouldn't use boiling water out of fear of the temp extremes...hot tap water works good for me, then swab well, then lay in sun before greasing. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 29 Sep 2000 22:50:54 EDT Maybe one reason that such bills cause alarm is that we see what has occurred in other nations. Ask any one a a multitude of former gunowners over in the UK. Numerous longarms were called in and destroyed by the government. Besides, if I buy it legally and pay my hard-earned money for it...it is, by golly...MY property!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: : Update/S. 2099 (handgun registration) Date: 29 Sep 2000 22:53:36 EDT Getting to go live in the mountains sounds as good a reason as any to get paranoid about something (as a reasone to go)! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cleaning with boiling H2O Date: 29 Sep 2000 22:11:13 -0700 Frank, It's HogWash. If your breechplug is loose enough for this to happen, you've got big troubles from the start. Pendleton -----Original Message----- This cleaning with boiling water. I read in a few mags that you should not use boiling water as it expands the metal and may loosen the barrel plug at the base of the barrell. Is there any merit to this or is it just hogwash? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cleaning with boiling H2O Date: 29 Sep 2000 22:34:29 -0700 Boys, water boils at 212 degrees. Your gun barrel will get that hot laying in the back of pickup truck here in Texas. Pendleton -----Original Message----- I use hot, not boiling water...the reason...so the warmed metal will dry out better... I wouldn't use boiling water out of fear of the temp extremes...hot tap water works good for me, then swab well, then lay in sun before greasing. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Date: 01 Oct 2000 23:09:27 -0400 n Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:12:04 GMT "wayne anderson" writes: > >Hawk, > >I've got the frizzen and frizzen spring installed and determined where >I'm >going to drill the tumbler hole. > >Question - measuring the tumbler with a vernier I find it is a few >thousandths out of round. Any suggestions on how I can ture it up >without a >lath? > Wayne I usto use a poor man's lathe a lot to do just what you are speaking of---use a drill press chuck the large round end and then use a file but brace it solid on something and you can turn it pretty round within .001 in most cases then flip it over and do the other side---I normally dont drill the hole for the tumbler until i get it round ---then drill it anout .001 larger than the tumbler. have done that a many a time when i didnt have quick access to a lathe--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Poorboy" Subject: MtMan-List: Short vacation? Date: 30 Sep 2000 08:23:42 -0700 Klahowya My Friends, I will be setting my mail, to no mail, shortly after mailing this post. I am moving my family to a new house in the country and will be a few days setting the magic box back up. Take care my friends, and play nice in my absence. YMOS PoorBoy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: here too Date: 30 Sep 2000 10:31:47 -0600 Frank Fusco wrote: "Thanks, Hawk I have been on the amm list a long time but seldom place messages. The reason is that I am not expert on the subject of authenticity for the RMFT." Frank Do you mean the AMM list or the Mountain Man List (History List)? I don't believe you or Hawk are members of AMM but you should jump right in with your thoughts and opinions on the Mountain Man List. You lurking old timers can very often offer up some very interesting perspectives on a variety of subjects. Warm up that keyboard and let her fly. You might be surprised at how much knowledge you have about RMFT authenticity. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff Hi Lanny what history list in addition to this AMM list are you talking about? Club membership is one thing. Hawk's experience as you acknowledge that supercedes that. Are those who went to Fort Union back on the list yet? Did you go? Understanding the Metis is understanding the cornerstone of gaining an understanding the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. Is Randy from Fort Union Trading Post still on this list? And findly where is Buck? Old Walt lurking in his Badgerhole Orginal Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jerry strobel" Subject: MtMan-List: pre-1840 Cherokee womemns dress and clothing. Date: 30 Sep 2000 23:33:39 GMT I wish to involve my girlfriend in buckskinning and attending the local rendezvous. Since she is one half Cherokee, she wants something to celebrate that heritage. So any information i.e. patterns, pictures, and or weblinks would be greatly appreciated. Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bvannoy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: contact for Bob Schmidt Date: 30 Sep 2000 19:22:34 -0500 Dog, I have a copy of Bob's latest flyer. Contact me off-list & I will send you a copy. Spinnin Beaver Ronald Schrotter wrote: > Can any of the brothers out there tell me if Bob > Schmidt from Montana is still making saddles and such, > and if so how can I contact him. Thanks in advance, DOG > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: availability of tradegoods Date: 30 Sep 2000 20:32:55 MDT let,s see what opinions are out there ? the large trade companys were always looking for new markats so they were aways puting people into the field looking for that all easy buck. but let us bring in the guy all so looking to add to his trapping dollars. he would buy from forts or other sources and sell to indians or the new arivals into the fur trade. it,s called free trade. the trade goods had found their way to the west before the big lou,s buy to the point that some of the artists had to pay some of the indians to go get their leathers on. the metis were bring the news trade goods to the rockes with their cart brigades early 1800's . by 1820 the brigades were strong in numbers and will organized for making money from the fur trade indian side and the new boys from the east and south. the red river cart is of its own not like the mex ox cart. the book mules,horses and men does a good compairson. back to freetraders, their were looking for a new market area that met covering the new tribes for a faster dollar. the montana fur trade and buffalo robe trade was one of the biggest and last around.the metis,s roots come in and from the fur indusry.covering alot of nichs from the beging to the die down. all and all the trade good was in the field and streams and ready to be bought by the trapper in the opening of RMFT. just to ruffle of few feathers, when did the hudson bay and norwest bring in the see bead? this is a trap?? you don,t make money for your self by setting at the forts. the carts took the goods to the customer in the field before he got to the forts or big companys. the rules of saling or trade were made by hudson bay and are still used to day. don,t sell the fur company short, they wanted to make a dollar even then. let her rip boy,s i got my moc supers on. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: here too Date: 01 Oct 2000 00:53:52 -0500 Walt This is not the AMM list, it is the Mountain Man E-Mail Discussion List, = generally simply called the Mountain Man List (and occasionaly called = the History List), and is a part of the Mountain Man and The Fur Trade = Home Page. It has nothing to do with AMM, although some of the Mountain = Man List subscribers are AMM members. The Mountain Man List is = available to anyone and most of its subscribers are NOT members of the = AMM. The AMM Members List is restricted to members of the AMM and is = primarily for AMM business and other proprietary functions of the AMM, = which should be of no interest to others.=20 FT Union is too far from Texas for me to have attended. Maybe if I win = the Lottery tonight and am able to retire I will have time enough to go = up there. I find the discussion about the Metis to be fascinating and = informative. About all I know about the subject has come from this = discussion. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 11:31 AM > Frank Fusco wrote: > "Thanks, Hawk > I have been on the amm list a long time but seldom place messages. = The > reason is that I am not expert on the subject of authenticity for the = RMFT." >=20 > Frank > Do you mean the AMM list or the Mountain Man List (History List)? I = don't > believe you or Hawk are members of AMM but you should jump right in = with > your thoughts and opinions on the Mountain Man List. You lurking old = timers > can very often offer up some very interesting perspectives on a = variety of > subjects. Warm up that keyboard and let her fly. You might be = surprised > at how much knowledge you have about RMFT authenticity. > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff >=20 >=20 > Hi Lanny what history list in addition to this AMM list are you = talking > about? Club membership is one thing. Hawk's experience as you = acknowledge > that supercedes that. Are those who went to Fort Union back on the = list > yet? Did you go? Understanding the Metis is understanding the = cornerstone > of gaining an understanding the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. >=20 > Is Randy from Fort Union Trading Post still on this list? And findly = where > is Buck? >=20 >=20 > Old Walt lurking in his Badgerhole > Orginal Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html