From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 09:08:17 EST SWcushing@aol.com writes: > Haaaaaaaa..... Don't know what all the whining is about!..... ya could be > called "Magpie"!>> It is better than "Stinking Water"! Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 08:32:24 -0600 Thanks all for the come-backs to my question. So, for now, I remain, Frank [camp nameless] Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 10:09:26 -0800 Frank (camp nameless) Fusco, Don't feel bad, there are a few of us nameless ones out there. I am Frank (camp nameless) Rago. Now, I have been called many names, but most would not be appropriate to be called at a rendezvous. or any social gathering. A name will happen upon me oneday, maybe tommorrow, maybe in 5 years. When it does it will be a deserving name appointed to me by my fellow buckskinners and primitive archery friends. But until then, I'm just Frank., or one of those un-appropriate names. Good Luck, Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 6:32 AM > Thanks all for the come-backs to my question. > So, for now, I remain, > Frank [camp nameless] Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: MtMan-List: Smokes?? Date: 01 Dec 2000 09:10:01 -0600 Capt. Lahti' wrote about people and their butts...... I agree whole-heartedly about "the proper disposal of smoking material". I've been participating in Inipi ceremonies up here for a long, long time and the biggest problem we have, whether it is Native kids at their first Sweat or the "uninitiated whiteman" is teaching people respect. At Inipi, that fire is sacred and that is explained to first-timers - it isn't a "garbage disposal". People are told once, and reminded once. If they chuck a butt in the fire a third time, the Lodge takes care of them - if they are not going in the Lodge, they are asked to leave. I smoke too much but I always have something to put my butts in so they are out of sight and I insist others do the same. I don't tolerate disrespect well, be it against me, someone else, or the place we are in. Someone responded yesterday about a different method of quitting but I deleted the List before I copied the address - would that person please contact me again. Na-ya-whe Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 08:39:38 -0800 > It is better than "Stinking Water"! > > Ghosting Wolf Is that one of those "temporary" names you get like when you have "foraged" some wild asparagus? Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 11:52:42 EST In a message dated 12/1/00 8:44:12 AM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << > It is better than "Stinking Water"! > > Ghosting Wolf Is that one of those "temporary" names you get like when you have "foraged" some wild asparagus? >> Haaaaaaa..... No, I think "Bead Shooter" is referring to "Stinking Water Steve".... Remember the keg of water I filled from a hose, and brought to Frog that made Tom Crooks barf and rusted your gun? I believe Tom thought that was a better name for me than Magpie..... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes?? Date: 01 Dec 2000 08:49:18 -0800 > I smoke too much but I always have something to put my butts in so they are > out of sight and I insist others do the same. I don't tolerate disrespect > well, be it against me, someone else, or the place we are in. Dianne, Thank you for taking my post in the manner it was offered and not taking personal offense since none was intended. It is hard to bring the subject up with most of us smokers since we feel put upon in todays "climate". I'm glad that you practice what you do and set a good example for the rest of us. > > Someone responded yesterday about a different method of quitting but I > deleted the List before I copied the address - would that person please > contact me again. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 5:47 AM > Dianne, > I quit 25 years ago and it was tough, I figured that I had to un learn the > same way I started. If you want to know how contact me off list. > YMOS > Ole # 718 I believe this is what you are looking for. Brother Ole, I would be interested in how you handled your addiction too. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: camp names/opinion Date: 01 Dec 2000 19:01:32 The subject of camp names has come up on this list several times before; always with various view points. I think it is important to realize that rendezvous names are a modern invention, rather than historical fact. Early documents refer to the men by their given names, not their "handles." There were a few nicknames circulating such as Ol' Gabe, Blanket Chief, Broken Hand, and a few others. However, most of these names were given by the natives. Some will argue that having a camp name helps them escape their modern identity, and become another person. If that is the case, pick a proper name common to the era, and build your personna around it. Be careful of romantic sounding indian names, although "Black Penis," has a nice ring to it! I have had a few names dropped on me over the years, and if they are given "across ther fire," they are supposed to stick. I have managed to drop them all. Cliff Tiffie _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes?? Date: 01 Dec 2000 14:25:53 EST In a message dated 12/1/00 10:13:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes: << that fire is sacred and that is explained to first-timers - it isn't a "garbage disposal". >> My wife feels the same about her fire. It is for cooking and as many campers across the NE will attest to her food preparation is a religion. If you put something in a cook fire it becomes one with the food (the smell or the chemicals/vapors). Many hard core smokers now carry hidden empty Sucrets tins to put their cigarette butts in rather than loose eating privileges at her fire. But no one I know would complain about another person smoking in camp unless the smoker is not respectful of others or the situation (i.e.: you would not light up on the march as part of a military unit at Ft. Niagara or Ft. Ti. But you could light up your pipe if you were in the militia or ranger units and march it. YHOS C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: moths and powder horns Date: 01 Dec 2000 17:42:11 EST Hi all, Got looking at some of powderhorns i own and found worm holes in some.OK let me pick your minds what do i do to rid my self of the worms attacking my horns.next thing i need to know whats a good old finish that i could use cover the horn with .and lets not say boiled linseed oil. hope you all can help.And as the name thing going i believe someone should give you the name for some thing that happened are you did.like how i got mine 330 conibear,beaver trapping . Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 17:02:47 -0700 For those who want an Authentic Indian Name of their own, go to http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/deaddog/ Good luck! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moths and powder horns Date: 01 Dec 2000 20:33:23 -0600 And as the name thing going i believe someone should give you=20 the name for some thing that happened are you did.like how i got mine 330 conibear Those dang conibear traps are mighty dangerous...you're lucky to have a = hand. Or do you? My uncle was a federal trapper for 35 years and he = can tell more stories than you remember. He is STILL leary of a = conibear. Lanney Ratcliff ps: His best story is not about trapping but how he ripped a big chunk = of meat off his middle knuckle by busting a Shore Patrolman in the mouth = on VJ day, precipating a near riot in San Diego. =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 01 Dec 2000 22:13:38 -0500 (EST) USA Today, Fri. 12-01-00, p.13A. Norfolk, Virginia - Beavers were hunted to near extinction in Virginia by 1911, but the population was restored 30 years later by importing beavers. But now beavers have become victims of their own success. They have grown so strong that the Department of Agriculture's Wildlife Services has been hired to kill and control 2,000 beavers next year. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: ... [OT] ... Man, Dog (and Murphy) Date: 01 Dec 2000 22:30:32 -0500 (EST) Detroit News, Fri. 12-01-00, p.4G (article by Fred Girard) Police confirm that a man from Bay City was trying to pose his dog with his shotgun for a snapshot, making it appear the dog was a hunter. Somehow the dog fired the gun, wounding the man in the leg. Since the man was not actually hunting at the time, or on his way to or from the field, the injury will not be included in state statistics, DNR hunter safety administrator Suzanne Koppelo said. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 01 Dec 2000 23:28:39 EST Hard to believe, but I think the lil buggers can survive just about anywhere. Here in SC, my father took a walk on the "back 40" several years ago and noticed that we had a pond that was not there before. Beavers had moved in and damned up our creek. Nice pond, too. Unfortunately, we got a real heavy rain not long after (close to seven inches in 72 hours when a hurricane came thru lower state SC) and the dam and beavers were GONE! I have even seen them take up residence in a manmade pond by the roadside on the way to the local landfill. It is really nice to be quiet and watch them swim around till they spot you and go underwater!!!! Anyone ever had any luck trapping beaver? -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 01 Dec 2000 22:43:54 -0800 C.Kent, I trapped beaver once. A licenced trapper, friend of mine, took me out for a weekend. He spent the first afternoon teaching me. We checked his traps the next morning , and found a beaver. I skinned and butchered it. We ate it. That day I made a land set, and a water set, based on what he taught me. The next morning we checked our traps. Both of mine were 'sprung'. The water set got away, but the land set was holding a beaver for me. I shot it, close range with a pistol, then retrieved my beaver. I skinned and butchered that beaver. It was a good weekend, I learned alot. My friend was contacted by the Land Management people, and advised that this area was overrun with Mr Beaver. He was helping the land Dept., and profiting at the same time. Being a 'suburban' Mountain Man, I had mixed feelings about this experience. I ate the beaver, but with mixed emotions. I have to say , I didn't have a great appetite. I'm not used to killing something, ripping its skin off, butchering it, then eating it. But- I am very glad I had this experience. It is something I need to know , as a wanna be Mountain Man. If you have the opportunity- Do It!. Especially under these circumstances. These beaver needed to be culled, as the over population was damaging 100 year old cottonwoods. If we didn't take some beaver, the land mgt. people would have, and they wouldn't have used the animals. My friend marketed the hides, I learned alot. It was a good experience. Hope this story is of some use. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trapper@cillnet.com (Brad Everett) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 02 Dec 2000 07:06:27 -0600 Yea , I heard they used to trap a few back in the Old days! Trapper, Trek'n through time, backwards! ----- Original Message ----- Anyone ever had any luck trapping > beaver? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trapper@cillnet.com (Brad Everett) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 02 Dec 2000 08:07:39 -0600 Sorry bout that last post, just couldn't resist. Trapping Trapper, Trek'n through time, backwards! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 7:06 AM > Yea , I heard they used to trap a few back in the Old days! > Trapper, > Trek'n through time, backwards! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moths and powder horns Date: 02 Dec 2000 09:40:55 -0500 Got a suggestion for you taht works sometimes... make a mild solution of bleach and warm water and wash the horns to kipp the bacteria left by the moths... use a toothbrush on the pits and make sre they are cleaned out of all the dust and remaining bacteria. set them in the sun to air dry for a few hours. THEN get some johnson;s paste wax or any good wood paste wax and apply several coats of it, being sure to fillin the pits. remove all the excess AFTER it is DRY.. ALL of it..... then do it about twice more to make sure.. future moths won't even be tempted to chew the wax! IMHO Mark "Crooked Hand" Toigo /aka/ Wethlee-Enké http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 5:42 PM > Hi all, > Got looking at some of powderhorns i own and found worm holes in > some.OK let me pick your minds what do i do to rid my self of the worms > attacking my horns.next thing i need to know whats a good old finish that i > could use cover the horn with .and lets not say boiled linseed oil. hope you > all can help.And as the name thing going i believe someone should give you > the name for some thing that happened are you did.like how i got mine > 330 conibear,beaver trapping . > > Traphand > Rick Petzoldt > Traphand@aol.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 02 Dec 2000 10:08:16 -0600 My blood brother, like me, is a programmer for a software firm. He = also works for the local land management bureaus here around Kansas City = trappin' beaver on the weekends and evenings. They punch holes in = levies, clog drainage ditches and flood fields, and are thick as theives = along the Missouri right now. He taught me to skin and flesh one fine = afternoon. I have to admit, it was a different experience, but one I = appreciated. Said pelt is now a cushion I sit on in camp, bad a job a = skinning as I did, it's still MINE, and something not every man can say = they've done. Right now is trapping season here in Missouri, and = he's saved his entire vacation to go run his lines. I reckon I'll see = him in a couple of weeks =3D) =20 I pesonally think he was born about 175 years too late. Todd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 02 Dec 2000 16:24:23 EST --part1_ae.dd8e8b6.275ac287_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did a TV program with the State Wildlife Dept.a few years back called a restocking program to successful. It was about Beaver. I showed them a half mile of county road under water. Deep enough I put my canoe in and floated over the fence on each side of the road, ( 5 wire). We have 77 counties and the are now listed as a nuisance in all counties. Again a few years back I trapped one area and in two weeks my partner and myself caught 72 beaver. We trapped this area for three weeks and it never slowed down, we just didn't count again. When we left there were still enough beaver you couldn't tell we had been there. Also the 330 conabear is a tough trap and you must be careful, but I have never heard of anyone losing an arm or any other body part to one. Nevertheless they can be dangerous, but then again so is water trapping of most any type. TrapRJoe --part1_ae.dd8e8b6.275ac287_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did a TV program with the State Wildlife Dept.a few years back called a
restocking program to successful.  It was about Beaver.  I showed them a half
mile of county road under water.  Deep enough I put my canoe in and floated
over the fence on each side of the road, ( 5 wire).  We have 77 counties and
the are now listed as a nuisance in all counties.  Again a few years back I
trapped one area and in two weeks my partner and myself caught 72 beaver.  We
trapped this area for three weeks and it never slowed down, we just didn't
count again.  When we left there were still enough beaver you couldn't tell
we had been there.  
      Also the 330 conabear is a tough trap and you must be careful, but I
have never heard of anyone losing an arm or any other body part to one.  
Nevertheless they can be dangerous, but then again so is water trapping of
most any type.

                                                                  TrapRJoe --part1_ae.dd8e8b6.275ac287_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 02 Dec 2000 22:30:15 -0600 On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:20:43 -0500 "Dennis Miles" writes: > D > > "It doesn't matter HOW MANY "skydives" you've got behind you.. > Until you have stepped out of a door of an airplane in total > darkness > at twelve hundred and fifty feet wearing ninety-five pounds of > equipment and forty-two pounds of parachute. You are STILL a > leg...." > AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY____ hawk ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 03 Dec 2000 01:22:12 EST --part1_57.e49dc09.275b4094_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, Our local group of skinners (not AMM) has a naming ceremony held at Our local Rendezvous. some of the names that have been given are: Birdbrain, Nosedive, Rain Man, Stitcher, Wounded Elk( he's an amputee)and so on. these each Have stories behind them and are given much like the other groups, after being observed by your buddies. My "best" friend dubbed me "Sleeps Loudly" bout a year and a half ago. He was much too kind, truth be known. your servant, Sleeps loudly Smith Boise, Id --part1_57.e49dc09.275b4094_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank,
    Our local group of skinners (not AMM) has a naming ceremony held at Our
local Rendezvous.   some of the names  that have been given are: Birdbrain,
Nosedive, Rain Man, Stitcher, Wounded Elk( he's an amputee)and so on. these
each Have stories behind them and are given much like the other groups, after
being observed by your buddies.  My "best" friend  dubbed me "Sleeps Loudly"  
bout a year and a half ago.  He was much too kind, truth be known.


your servant,

Sleeps loudly  Smith
Boise, Id --part1_57.e49dc09.275b4094_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller Subject: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 15:51:57 -0500 --------------EE13DA69F0BA8474E269F937 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, I just came across this nice old looking trade axe (hatchet?) on Ebay and was wondering if anyone has heard of the name stamped on it and an approx. age. Thanks Manbear http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=514470679 --------------EE13DA69F0BA8474E269F937 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list,

I just came across this nice old looking trade axe (hatchet?) on Ebay and was wondering if anyone has heard of the name stamped on it and an approx. age.

Thanks
Manbear

 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=514470679 --------------EE13DA69F0BA8474E269F937-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 16:58:06 -0500 Looks awful modern to me... The stamp is the reason I say this. . My opinion. Buyer beware D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 I Now Offer Gift Certificates ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matthew Hawley" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: please take me off the list Date: 03 Dec 2000 22:25:37

i am know moving so all you take care and remember to shoot straight and remeber your friends no matter were your at.

                                  always yours in muzzle loading

                                      white eagle

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>
>On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:20:43 -0500 "Dennis Miles"
>writes:
> > D
> >
> > "It doesn't matter HOW MANY "skydives" you've got behind you..
> > Until you have stepped out of a door of an airplane in total
> > darkness
> > at twelve hundred and fifty feet wearing ninety-five pounds of
> > equipment and forty-two pounds of parachute. You are STILL a
> > leg...."
> > AIRBORNE
>
>ALL THE WAY____
>
>hawk
>________________________________________________________________
>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
>Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

(WHITE EAGLE)

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 19:36:34 -0500 I Wrote: "Looks awful modern to me... " Hi, Keep it in mind that "modern" is a relative term... Mebby better phrased as "no where near as old as portrayed"... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 19:46:19 -0500 Dennis, I was wondering about that one myself. The claim of 17th to 18th century seemed a bit generous to me, but I know not about these matters. Do you suppose that early to mid 19th century is more believable, or do you think it's even younger than that? Tom Dennis Miles wrote: > I Wrote: "Looks awful modern to me... " > > Hi, Keep it in mind that "modern" is a relative term... Mebby better > phrased > as "no where near as old as portrayed"... > > D > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 19:51:25 -0500 Thanks Dennis, I think I know what you mean. "Modern" to me can be 1890's. Manbear Dennis Miles wrote: > I Wrote: "Looks awful modern to me... " > > Hi, Keep it in mind that "modern" is a relative term... Mebby better > phrased > as "no where near as old as portrayed"... > > D > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: MtMan-List: Holidays with the Corp of Discovery Christmas Date: 03 Dec 2000 19:21:45 -0700 --------------AC5CFB770BA1162E65B877C9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit sent earlier but didn't go !!!!! Buck Conner wrote: > Hey folks, > > Here's one from the boys we all love. > Holidays with the Corp. of Discovery Christmas > _____________________________________________ > > At this wonerful time of the year, remember those of the > past and present, loved ones and friends, God Bless them > all. > > We've given you a little history of what was going on with > the Corp of Discovery under the direction of Lewis & > Clark. > > On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and > almost above freezing. Fort Mandan was deemed officially > complete, and the captains handed out dried apples, > pepper, and extra flour for the next day's meal and > celebration. > > Just before Christmas dawn, the captains were awakened by > the men, all if them, Clark noted, "merrily disposed." > > December 25th, 1804. > We ushed [in] the morning with a discharge of the Swivvel > [gun], and one round of Small arms of all the party. Then > another from the Swivvel. Then Capt. Clark presented a > glass of brandy to each man of the party. > > We hoisted the american flag, and each man had another > Glass of brandy. > > The men prepared one of the rooms and commenced dancing. > At 10 o'c [lock] we had another Glass of brandy, at one a > gun was fired as a Signal for diner. Half past two another > gun was fired to assemble at the dance, and So we kept it > up in a jov[ia]l manner untill eight o'c[lock] at night, > all without the company of the female Seck [sex]. > > > Joseph Whitehouse > > The mandans were asked not to visit the fort on Christmas > because, the captains explained, it was a "great medicine" > day for the expedition. But on New Year's, the men > celebrated with their Indian hosts. > > > ************* > New Year’s Day > > January 1st, 1806. > Our repast of this day, tho' better than that of > Cristmass, consisted principally in the anticipation of > the 1st day of > > January 1807, when in the bosom of our friends we hope to > participate in the mirth and hilarity of the day, and when > with the zest given by the recollection of the present, we > shall completely, both mentally and corporally, enjoy the > repast which the hand of civilization has prepared for us. > > > Meriwether Lewis. > > Men were put to work making candles, boiling ocean water > for salt, preserving elk meat in a smokehouse, and sewing > clothes from elk hides for the return trip home. > > Clark labored over a new map that would replace eastern > speculation with the hard facts of western geography. > > Lewis wrote page after page of descriptions of animals and > plants unknown to science-from the giant sitka spruce tree > to the evergreen huckleberry; from ring-necked ducks and > whistling swans to small smelt-the candlefish-that the men > roasted and ate whole. > > > ************* > In the next life may we experience such an adventure, and > may God see us fit enough to handle the chore. > > For a new year it seems things are well with our early > travelers, fed and full of thoughts of returning home. > > May you and your’s have a good New Year. > > ************* > > Take care, > Buck Conner & family > Resource & Documentation for: > _____________________________________ > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ _____HRD__ > Research page: > http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _____HRD__ > Personal page: > http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ > ________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___ > > > > > > > > > --------------AC5CFB770BA1162E65B877C9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit sent earlier but didn't go !!!!!

Buck Conner wrote:

Hey folks,

Here's one from the boys we all love.
Holidays with the Corp. of Discovery Christmas
_____________________________________________

At this wonerful time of the year, remember those of the past and present, loved ones and friends, God Bless them all.

We've given you a little history of what was going on with the Corp of Discovery under the direction of Lewis & Clark.

On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and almost above freezing. Fort Mandan was deemed officially complete, and the captains handed out dried apples, pepper, and extra flour for the next day's meal and celebration.

Just before Christmas dawn, the captains were awakened by the men, all if them, Clark noted, "merrily disposed."

December 25th, 1804.
We ushed [in] the morning with a discharge of the  Swivvel [gun], and one round of Small arms of all the party. Then another from the Swivvel. Then Capt. Clark presented a glass of brandy to each man of the party.

We hoisted the american flag, and each man had another Glass of brandy.

The men prepared one of the rooms and commenced dancing. At 10 o'c [lock] we had another Glass of brandy, at one a gun was fired as a Signal for diner. Half past two another gun was fired to assemble at the dance, and So we kept it up in a jov[ia]l manner untill eight o'c[lock] at night,  all without the company of the female Seck [sex].
                                                                                                                                           Joseph Whitehouse

The mandans were asked not to visit the fort on Christmas because, the captains explained, it was a "great medicine" day for the expedition. But on New Year's, the men celebrated with their Indian hosts.

                                                              *************
New Year’s Day

January 1st, 1806.
Our repast of this day, tho' better than that of Cristmass, consisted principally in the anticipation of the 1st day of

January 1807, when in the bosom of our friends we hope to participate in the mirth and hilarity of the day, and when with the zest given by the recollection of the present, we shall completely, both mentally and corporally, enjoy the repast which the hand of civilization has prepared for us.
                                                                                                                  Meriwether Lewis.

Men were put to work making candles, boiling ocean water for salt, preserving elk meat in a smokehouse, and sewing clothes from elk hides for the return trip home.

Clark labored over a new map that would replace eastern speculation with the hard facts of western geography.

Lewis wrote page after page of descriptions of animals and plants unknown to science-from the giant sitka spruce tree to the evergreen huckleberry; from ring-necked ducks and whistling swans to small smelt-the candlefish-that the men roasted and ate whole.

                                                              *************
In the next life may we experience such an adventure, and may God see us fit enough to handle the chore.

For a new year it seems things are well with our early travelers, fed and full of thoughts of returning home.

May you and your’s have a good New Year.
                                                              *************

Take care,
Buck Conner & family
Resource & Documentation for:
_____________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/  _____HRD__
Research page:
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _____HRD__
Personal page:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


 
  --------------AC5CFB770BA1162E65B877C9-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MdntRdr1@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: E-mail lists Date: 03 Dec 2000 20:40:02 EST --part1_77.cea52f4.275c4ff2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know of an e-mail list somewhere that's dedicated to the Old West? Circa later on in the century than we talk about here? I've checked E-groups and haven't found anything on there that floats my boat yet. Stan "I resent 'experts' who have never faced deadly threat, yet who tell me - and you - that we should not consider a response of equal power against those who would threaten our lives." -- Massad Ayoob --part1_77.cea52f4.275c4ff2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know of an e-mail list somewhere that's dedicated to the Old
West?  Circa later on in the century than we talk about here?  I've checked
E-groups and haven't found anything on there that floats my boat yet.

Stan

"I resent 'experts' who have never faced deadly threat,
yet who tell me - and you - that we should not consider
a response of equal power against those who would
threaten our lives."
-- Massad Ayoob
--part1_77.cea52f4.275c4ff2_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Holidays with the Corp of Discovery Christmas Date: 03 Dec 2000 19:03:05 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05D5B.AAE33D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Buck, Tap in www.billingsgazette.com Then pick news local/state in the upper left corner. Finally pick the story Clark on the Yellowstone. In today’s paper. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05D5B.AAE33D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

He= y Buck,

 

Ta= p in www.billingsgazette.com =  Then pick news local/state in = the upper left corner.  Finally pick = the story Clark on the Yellowstone.

 

In= today’s paper.

 

Wa= lt

Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837

Clark = Bottom Rendezvous

Yellowsto= ne Canoe Camp

On the = Lewis & Clark Trail

Park = City, Montana

<= span class=3DEmailStyle18> 

 <= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05D5B.AAE33D00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 22:16:23 -0500 Tom, My first impression is of mid 19thC to post C.W. Mebby later, but the style suggests that period. But I may be way wrong. (classic c.y.a.) The marking is consistant with some in some C.W. era ref. books I have here .. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: E-mail lists Date: 03 Dec 2000 23:11:41 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C05D7E.65843700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stan Try these for your old west discussion groups. Lanney Ratcliff GhostRiders Stunt Co. reenactors of Old West and American ...=20 ... Discussion and Round Tables. Subscribe to Old West Reenactors = Mailing List. Discussion of American Frontier and Old West historical Reenacting. Moderated ...=20 Description: American Frontier Living History. Old West Reenactors. = Hangings by invitation.=20 Category: Arts > Performing Arts > Stunts > Live Shows www.ghostriders.org/ - 17k - Cached - Similar pages Bitter Creek Outlaws - Old West Gunfighters ... An old west living history and gunfighter group located in southwest = Wyoming, the area once ... Discussion of firearm safety for children (and adults = ...=20 Description: A group of low-down, dirty, rotten, mean, ugly (and that's = just our Sheriff) personages that perform...=20 Category: Regional > North America > United States > Wyoming > Arts and = Entertainment www.wyomerc.com/bcohome.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages----- = Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 7:40 PM Does anyone know of an e-mail list somewhere that's dedicated to the Old = West? Circa later on in the century than we talk about here? I've = checked=20 E-groups and haven't found anything on there that floats my boat yet.=20 Stan=20 "I resent 'experts' who have never faced deadly threat,=20 yet who tell me - and you - that we should not consider=20 a response of equal power against those who would=20 threaten our lives."=20 -- Massad Ayoob=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C05D7E.65843700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Stan

Try these for your old west discussion groups.

Lanney Ratcliff

 

GhostRiders=20 Stunt Co. reenactors of Old West and American ... =
... Discussion and Round Tables. Subscribe = to=20 Old West Reenactors Mailing List. Discussion
of = American=20 Frontier and Old West historical Reenacting. Moderated = ...=20
Description: American = Frontier Living=20 History. Old West Reenactors. Hangings by invitation. =
Category: Arts > Performing Arts > Stunts&nb= sp;> Live Shows
www.ghostriders.org/ - 17k - Cached=20 - Similar=20 pages

Bitter=20 Creek Outlaws - Old West Gunfighters
... An old west living history and = gunfighter=20 group located in southwest Wyoming,
the area once ...=20 Discussion of firearm safety for children (and adults ...=20
Description: A group = of low-down,=20 dirty, rotten, mean, ugly (and that's just our Sheriff) personages that=20 perform...
Category: Regional > North A= merica > United States > Wyoming >=  Arts and Entertainment
www.wyomerc.com/bcohome.html - 16k - Cached=20 - Similar=20 pages----- Original Message -----

From: MdntRdr1@aol.com=20
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 7:40 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: E-mail lists

Does anyone know of an e-mail list somewhere = that's=20 dedicated to the Old
West?  Circa later on in the century than = we talk=20 about here?  I've checked
E-groups and haven't found anything = on there=20 that floats my boat yet.

Stan

"I resent = 'experts' who=20 have never faced deadly threat,
yet who tell me - and you - that we = should=20 not consider
a response of equal power against those who would =
threaten=20 our lives."
-- Massad Ayoob
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C05D7E.65843700-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 02:15:47 EST In a message dated 12/2/0 02:26:21 PM, TrapRJoe@aol.com writes: <> Screw up, and you wear it home. R. James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 07:42:47 EST In a message dated 12/4/00 12:20:37 AM Mountain Standard Time, SWzypher@aol.com writes: << Screw up, and you wear it home. R. James >> I knew a guy in Alaska that did just that! He had the old style Conabear and while trying to set it, it went off and caught BOTH of his arms. He couldn't get it off so had to come home for help.... The kicker was he had to fly his Super Cub back......... he's still in the gene pool. If your gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough! Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 07:19:42 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: December 04, 2000 1:15 AM > Screw up, and you wear it home. > R. James I always carried a short length of rope when using these traps. In the event that you do get your arm caught in one, take the rope and tie it to the eye of one of the springs, then pass it through the other eye of the same spring and then back again through the first eye. The rope then can be used as a spring clamp when you depress the spring using the vast amount of energy created by all of the adrenaline flowing through your body caused by a huge trap being clamped on your arm. Remember, you only have to depress the spring a slight amount to retrieve your arm. A lot of care should be taken when using these traps but there is little doubt in my mind that they are the most effective and humane trap ever designed for catching beaver, in my opinion. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trapper@cillnet.com (Brad Everett) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 07:17:14 -0600 Good point and it works fine, unless you've got both thumbs hung up like a buddy who appeared at my door one cold snowy morn. I really shouldn't have laughed,hehehe! Especially when he asked me what those little hooks on the side were for! Trapper, Trek'n through time, backwards! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 7:19 AM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: December 04, 2000 1:15 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item > > > > > Screw up, and you wear it home. > > R. James > > I always carried a short length of rope when using these traps. In the event > that you do get your arm caught in one, take the rope and tie it to the eye > of one of the springs, then pass it through the other eye of the same spring > and then back again through the first eye. The rope then can be used as a > spring clamp when you depress the spring using the vast amount of energy > created by all of the adrenaline flowing through your body caused by a huge > trap being clamped on your arm. Remember, you only have to depress the > spring a slight amount to retrieve your arm. A lot of care should be taken > when using these traps but there is little doubt in my mind that they are > the most effective and humane trap ever designed for catching beaver, in my > opinion. > northwoods > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: trade axe Date: 04 Dec 2000 08:08:21 -0600 Manbear Just looking at the pictures did not provide me much in the way of clues as to whether it is old or recent made. I note as of this a.m. it had 184 viewings and just three bids. To me that means there are a lot of people out there who have doubts also. I'd give about $20.00 for it out of curiosity. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Holidays with the Corp of Discovery Christmas Date: 04 Dec 2000 08:57:25 -0600 Buck, I think you were the one who posted the Thanksgiving of the Corp of Discovery. I used it as a Scoutmaster's Minute last week at our Troop meeting and the boys applauded. I was pleasantly surprised by that. I thought others in the group may be interested too. Thanks for the postings, Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Karl Kroll" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #684 Date: 04 Dec 2000 15:52:12 -0600 I am from Minnesota, and last year I grew my own tobacco. It was not too difficult and the tobacco plants turned out to be the best crop in the garden. (one plant over 6 feet tall) I do not recall the web site that I found to buy the seeds. Keep in mind, the seeds require "sun light" (or a grow light etc.) for a certain amount of time before they can be planted. (the seeds are also very small) The plants also grow slowly, so you will want start them during the winter. You can also get info on growing and aging the tobacco on line. Can't get any more authentic than growing your own. One final bit of advice, be careful with whom you share your "home grown". There are several co-workers/friends who still think that I gave them marijuana to this day. It was also a little scary bringing it across the border into Canada, and a "funny looking" white clay pipe. Good Luck ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 18:03:02 EST It is funnier years later setting around a fire and telling some of the crazy trapping stories,thanks for bringing back some of the menories. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 17:17:04 -0600 > I knew a guy in Alaska that did just that! He had the old style > Conabear and > while trying to set it, it went off and caught BOTH of his arms. He > couldn't > get it off so had to come home for help.... The kicker was he had to > fly his > Super Cub back......... he's still in the gene pool. > > If your gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough! > > Ymos, > Magpie Aw c'mon, Magpie, fess up. With all the tales Capt. Lahti' has told us about you recently, we all know who this Alaskan "friend" REALLY is!!!! Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 16:38:30 -0800 > Aw c'mon, Magpie, fess up. With all the tales > Capt. Lahti' has told us about you recently, we all know who > this Alaskan "friend" REALLY is!!!! > > Victoria Magpie, I didn't tell them, Honest. They figured it out all by themselves. Do you still have that Super Cub? And did you get that jpg of your daughter trying to take the ball away from that Kennewick Woman? Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 20:51:51 EST --part1_b9.9381d81.275da437_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit True you may wear it for a while, but it doesn't sever legs or arms. I have been in them, but because of advance planning I was able to get out, without help. I was lucky. TrapRJoe --part1_b9.9381d81.275da437_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit True you may wear it for a while, but it doesn't sever legs or arms.  I have
been in them, but because of advance planning I was able to get out, without
help.  I was lucky.

                                          TrapRJoe --part1_b9.9381d81.275da437_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 20:56:44 EST --part1_20.eca7384.275da55c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That why you use the safety on the trap and also an extra one to hold the jaws allowing you to release it safely. TrapRJoe --part1_20.eca7384.275da55c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That why you use the safety on the trap and also an extra one to hold the
jaws allowing you to release it safely.



                                          TrapRJoe --part1_20.eca7384.275da55c_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #684 Date: 04 Dec 2000 21:41:11 EST Karl, A buddy of mine tried to grow his own tobacco over in eastern Tenn in with his dad's crop allotment. Was a different strain and he was growing it for seeds as well. Strange but the gov't. helicopters must have liked it, too cuz they flew over quite a bit to get a look! Maybe the seeds you got were some from his late eighties crop! Strange, but his tobacco look different that his dad's. Hmmm................. Seriously, do you know what it was called? How does it smoke? -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 09:32:38 -0600 As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I want to broach. I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized Native groups. Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 09:14:18 -0800 Dianne, Your post is bound to be a "stick in the eye" to many on this group. Truth be known, very few Natives join in this buckskinning life style we have all adopted. The bulk of us are of European extraction with a sprinkling of African and Spanish blood. True, there are a number of us (an overt number, suspiciously)who claim a portion of Native blood from one tribe or the other. I have never met a "Rez" Native doing what we do and only a few mixed-bloods who were raised "Indian". Why is this? I have a couple of theories, both probably as invalid as any, but based on observation and conversation. The first is ignorance of recorded history. Ever see the award-winning film : "Smoke Signals"? It depicts two young men leaving the reservation for the first time to retrieve the inherited possessions (a car)of an absentee father. It is referred to as "going to the United States". All the perceptions these men have about contemporary life outside is gleaned from movies, TV and oral tradition. Like the Amish, they dwell apart. The rejection of written history is almost a religion among some of these tribes. Why read what the conquerors have written about those defeated? It's too bad because our local Chumash were able to emerge from their mixed Spanish/Native blood due to the records of ceremonies and language kept by the Spanish padres at the missions. It's also too bad because they miss the point of the "rendezvous movement". At a reenactment held at Fort Snelling, Minnesota years ago a small lodge was set up by a local Dakota couple. They made no attempt at period clothing and wore their ribbon shirt and dance dress...but they were there. I asked them why there were no more Natives at this gathering considering that we were reproducing a period of history where the whites and Indians wanted the same thing: to keep "civilization" east of the Mississippi. He replied that most of his friends couldn't get by the evil connections made to this fort. Fort Snelling is where the Dakota were imprisoned after the abortive uprising in the 1860s. 49 Dakotas were taken from Fort Snelling and hung at Mankato in the largest mass hanging in history. The Indian war period and contemporary twentieth century living on the reservations overshadow any "good times" of the past. And it's the love of the history of this time that drives the "hobby". This life we live is costly. You gotta love it to scrape and save for the gun and traps necessary to travel back in time. Just the gas for the truck to haul all the stuff is a major consideration these days. Most Natives have other things to spend the money on. Stuff they need and love more. The second reason is social. Us "white" people aren't Indians. Never will be. Attend a Pow-Wow and wait until the place closes down for the night. Listen to the songs the Natives sing for themselves around the drum when the trinket sellers and fry-bread cooks have gone to bed and the white tourists have left. The young women dance around the drum while the young men pass the "holy smoke" and check out the gals. Us white guys stand on the edge and listen to the words that are not sung but are there: "You are not wanted here. You don't understand and never will. You are not Native and never will be." Now reverse the situation and put reservation Natives on the outside of a fire circle at rendezvous as they listen to the songs and the attitudes presented there: "You do not belong here. You do not understand and never will. You are not us and never will be." The interesting thing about these two scenarios is the validity they both espouse. There is something valid about the Indian-experience that attracts us European immigrants. Back far enough we connect. And there is something of the confidence and family values around the rendezvous campfire that is attractive to the Native American. We both want what the other has but we refuse to give up being who we are in order to attain it. This post is too damn long and too damn philosophical. It really is up to the mixed-bloods who live in both worlds to make the connection between us. They need to talk up rendezvous to their cousins on the Rez and invite them into an accommodating group. They need to come out of the closet and explain the Indian mind to us buckskinners so we can "get" the good stuff and adjust the attitudes that prevents us from experiencing the mix of cultures that was so much a part of the original rendezvous. Or NOT. The movement will continue as it has, catering to those that read the histories, love the outdoors and won the wars. A few of us individuals will attempt more. Those of us who are welcome in Native homes and have Native relatives will continue to bridge the gap and insert the knowledge gained into our lives. The rest will settle for celebrating history in our own way. The buckskinning "hobby" appeals to a wide variety of tastes and interests. There is room enough for everyone. There is room for Natives. Welcome, Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:32 AM > As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have > been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, > and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and > the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I > want to broach. > > I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white > people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed > to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". > > There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with > Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so > inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions > died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. > > Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people > ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of > "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a > bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial > groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they > professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. > > As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, > a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". > > Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? > > I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am > wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized > Native groups. > > Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 12:16:55 -0800 Larry Huber's thoughtful reply pretty much sums it up for me. I have always had a fascination with Native culture which is part of what drew me into recreating the mountain man's life style. I have come to realise that I have a rather vague and superficial "understanding" of native culture which was actually as varied as the 1000 or more tribes that populated this land before we got here. Qualities which were generally admired and adopted by white Americans included personal independence, a fairly class-less society, and especially admiration for their well-developed skills of living in the wilderness. Feared or hated qualities included ruthlessness and "heathen religions". Most Europeans of the time appeared to take for granted that their logical skills, education, weapons, personal strength, and Christian faith were more than a match for the natives they encoutered. I can understand the "New Ager's" search for the meaning of life and the romantic hope that somehow the stoic Indians had it all figured out. I don't think they do, any more than the rest of us. All societies have their bonding and support rituals. Everyone appreciates polite respect for their customs and a decent sense of privacy. I can understand resentment against cultural appropriation, especially of a shallow and patronizing kind. If I found myself invited to a ceremony I would be honored to attend in a respectful manner but it is not my personal culture. As a side point, although there may some some whites who are out-and-out pretending to be Indians, most of those wearing "native" clothing are recreating the crossover culture which developed between whites and their mixed blood offspring who went "partly native" and enjoyed the freedom of the wilderness while holding onto the wealth and power of their white weapons and contacts. The "rules of the game" pretty much require women to dress native, since there were so few white women until the very end of the rendezvous era. You will find, however, that most events allow for a fair amount of slack (for instance, for "frontier dress") as long as blatant modern intrusions are avoided. Best regards Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:33 AM As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I want to broach. I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized Native groups. Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 15:54:13 -0800 Actually, you might want to bring this up on another site called http://www.powwows.com. Elders I have talked too do not mind the dancers or the re-creation. But all is an opinion on all sides. As for "stealing" a culture, it might be more of an adaptation or adopting of a culture. Many of those who you maybe looking at are part Indian and trying to learn their culture. But this is not the site to get into any of this. I have seen Indians get dressed up as Buckskinners to do a time line at Rendezvous. What do we call these guys?? Linda Holley "Best, Dianne" wrote: > As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have > been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, > and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and > the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I > want to broach. > > I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white > people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed > to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". > > There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with > Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so > inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions > died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. > > Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people > ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of > "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a > bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial > groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they > professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. > > As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, > a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". > > Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? > > I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am > wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized > Native groups. > > Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 15:42:12 EST In a message dated 12/5/0 08:34:00 AM, dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes: Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles?>>* <