From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Extra-Primitive Camps Date: 31 Mar 2003 23:24:43 -0800 So what do yall think about that?......... Wynn and other friends, I've done over 1,000 miles worth of canoe trips. All of it was done 'primitive' with mostly AMM brothers. At least 2/3 of these miles had women and/or children in attendence. The events I have participated in where open to members and their 'guests'. Guests often include women and children. They are generally welcome as long as they [play by the rules]. Most of the women and kids I have traveled with can carry their own weight and would be welcome in any camp of mine. Tom is right, my kid can tell stories that most wouldn't believe...but the stories are true..... Yfab, Randy . But why is there > such a strong attitude that excludes young people from higher level events? > Why don't we see more children at AMM events? If we want to pass our > seriousness to the hobby on or stimulate interest as Jim said in his post > that got everyone fired up why arn't we teaching to our own kids? > > I talked to Toas Tom about this the other night. He said "What I wouldn't > have given to have been able to do this stuff as a kid. Man talk about > playground bragging rights!" > > So what do yall think about that? > > Wynn Ormond > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we ar ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Policy - off topic Date: 01 Apr 2003 06:22:13 -0500 Dean, Thanks for the explanation. What is the message size limit? Perhaps you or some other very kind person might offer a bit of advice on how to "put the images on a web page". I can do lot's of stuff, some of it well, but there's a whole lot about which I haven't a clue and that's one of them. Thanks! Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:05 AM > Sorry, the mailing list software rejects messages that exceed a certain > size. Most images are too large to pass this filter. The recommended > approach is to put the images on a web page and post the URL. > -Dean > > At 04:31 PM 3/30/03 -0500, you wrote: > >Dean, > > > >What policy and limitations apply to image attachments for these mail lists? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Tom > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 01 Apr 2003 07:27:05 -0500 --------------090001000308020003050106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, too late in the time period. Remember, I am trying to stay in the "time period". :-) Linda Holley roger lahti wrote: > > > > Linda Holley....but then again.......I like the view from my side > with the boys and their breech cloths. > > You like that view? Yuck! I supose your the one woman in the world > who appreciates Speedo's. > > Capt. L > > > > >> > shirts.> > --------------090001000308020003050106 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, too late in the time period.   Remember, I am trying to stay in the "time period". :-)

Linda Holley

roger lahti wrote:
 

Linda Holley....but then again.......I like the view from my side with the boys and their  breech cloths.
 
You like that view? Yuck! I supose your the one woman in the world who appreciates Speedo's. <G>
Capt. L
 



<Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and honour shirts.>

--------------090001000308020003050106-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Extra-Primitive Camps Date: 01 Apr 2003 07:25:08 -0700 At 11:28 PM 3/31/2003 -0700, Wynn wrote: >So what do yall think about that? > >Wynn Ormond Hi Guys and Gals, Couple of things. First of all women and kids can do it, because we're all here, and our ancestors DID do it. It's just as easy to do it right as it is to do it wrong. We've got several women who camp with us who will make the hardest core mountain man strain to keep up, any time of year. And Wynn, that fine lad can sit a horse well! Allen, from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Extra-Primitive Camps Date: 02 Apr 2003 09:59:53 -0500 guys we've hammered this one good but guess i have to drop my nickel in the pot---my first association with the AMM was in the early 60's and the rules havent changed and in or around the 70's there was a seperation of some from the east to the west even though the time period portraid was the same--(some called it the developing period(GBG)I believe haywood was the capitain)-some of the western guys attitude was if you dont play in the rockey mountains you aint squat and the eastern members who traveled out west to the gatherings got real upset with that attitude---the party i was associated with was in Ill/KY/OH and most of them were from ill being some pretty hard core guys and with amm # well below 200 and several in the book (who's who in buckskins)and one of the things that drew me to their groop was they all involved their whole family in the doins from a baby in arms on up to the oldest one there who was in his 80's one young lad who was about 7 at the time i first met him is now in his late 20 early 30's and he still talks about the wonderful experience he had as he says now "Running with the big dogs" like dale black, hawk bowerton, orval (CRICKET) heumpry(SP), pappy horn, Wayne(SOREPAW) Welge,bruce horn, big red, silver fox, crazy dan, dan anderson, and his son steve anderson, fred prentice and many others too numerous to mention. I made this young man his first rifle because he was shooting the kids match at the roo's with my old big gun with full loads or his dads gun ---he had a full costume from the first time i saw him that his dad had made for himas his legs grew we added more leather to his pants. if his dad had to work he went with me to the doins--seems a lot more shooting and primative skills stuff was involved then--- more than just looking original---my girl friend at that time wanted to go to a doins so i built her a costume so that she could join us at the shoots and doins----her best buddy was dale black---he made her a lot of special stuff for her costume--I was privelaged to attend dale blacks first eastern mountain man championshios / and goat shoot---learned a lot ever time i went to a doins---learned plain and fancy hawk throwing from cricket ---knife throwing from Hawk bouerten and primative skills from dale black---and how to make a 5 second or less fire from dan anderson. one of those doins was a full learning experience and to me it was a privelage to be invited to attend and to comply with the/their rules---they were mainly unwritten at that time--I worked for 4 months hand tanning the hides for my pants and hand sew my shirt and capote so i could be right ---most of the guys all helped you get things right many of the things i have today came from one of these fine AMM members---many of which are now trapping with the big maker--- the bottom line for all of this is either comply or go to a groop that will accept your time span ---the amm has never changed the dates they portray and i have never not asked for help from a AMM member that he didnt help or teach me what was correct---or explain in simple terms what is or is not correct---start first with common sense---and do your reading and research---its not a easy path and it is not intended to be --- a primative camp pre 1840 is just that and should be kept that way as much as possible---the pre 1840 period using comonality and documented items and not the attitude that if they would have had it they would have used it-- sorry for getting so verbose--- NUFF said------- YMHOS HAWK ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Extra-Primitive Camps Date: 01 Apr 2003 07:14:04 -0800 Wynn, I've been to quite a few AMM events and flat-lander rendezvous and haven't seen nearly the negative towards women and children that you mention. I don't see a lot of women and children there, mostly because the guys I know wives don't like primitive camping....and I mean they don't like it at ALL! I know a few wives who enjoy it, but most of them don't. I tried to get my daughter and step daughter to learn how to shoot black powder and took them on about 6 or 7 rendezvous, all to no avail. They didn't want to shoot at all...period. They did enjoy throwing the tomahawk, but the last time they went with me, including my ex, was when we showed up at a vous, and it rained for the entire 3 days. They couldn't get out of there quick enough...and that was it. They didn't ever want to go again....period. So, my point is....it really depends on the family members. There aren't millions of people lined up and trying to get invited into the AMM, or other muzzleloading clubs simply because there aren't a lot of people interested in it. IMHO, Blood On Mon, 2003-03-31 at 22:28, Wynn Ormond wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pat Quilter > > . The modern event IS a family doings, and you simply have > > to adjust to this. Various groups including the AMM still go out with > "just > > the guys" (and a few plucky women) to recreate the feeling of really > living > > on the ground. Each experience has its own rewards. > > > Pat > Why do we have to adjust to it? 14 year old TC Stanley looked as good as > any adult at a beaver camp in 2000. And I personally know a 7 year old who > is a fair hand signer and he can ride a horse and cut tracks as good as > most. You mark my words, Jill's womens group is going to the shame on some > AMMers. > > My point is this. As modern rendezvous go I say to each his own. If all > they want is to porkyvoo let them and more power to them. But why is there > such a strong attitude that excludes young people from higher level events? > Why don't we see more children at AMM events? If we want to pass our > seriousness to the hobby on or stimulate interest as Jim said in his post > that got everyone fired up why arn't we teaching to our own kids? > > I talked to Toas Tom about this the other night. He said "What I wouldn't > have given to have been able to do this stuff as a kid. Man talk about > playground bragging rights!" > > So what do yall think about that? > > Wynn Ormond > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Extra-Primitive Camps Date: 01 Apr 2003 08:46:10 -0700 At the last two AMM nationals there were a number of women and kids. Many of the brigade events I've seen also had some women and children too. These events do have a vast majority of men, but the events are open to guests (women and children) so long as they can abide by the primitive rules. The problem may be more finding women and/or children that have the interest or the right "stuff" to attend. I have not found them to be a distraction nor a hindrance and in fact they have been a plus. I especially like having the kids around. However, I also understand that on many excursions and camps, to be truly correct and have the right feeling, would have no women or kids, with Indian women and children sometimes being the exception. My 2 shillings worth. Bead Shooter ----- Original Message ----- ....Various groups including the AMM still go out with "just the guys" (and a few plucky women) to recreate the feeling of really living on the ground.... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Extra-Primitive Camps Date: 01 Apr 2003 09:28:52 -0800 Wynn, I personally think you hit the nail on the head and I couldn't agree with you more. Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 10:28 PM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pat Quilter > > . The modern event IS a family doings, and you simply have > > to adjust to this. Various groups including the AMM still go out with > "just > > the guys" (and a few plucky women) to recreate the feeling of really > living > > on the ground. Each experience has its own rewards. > > > Pat > Why do we have to adjust to it? 14 year old TC Stanley looked as good as > any adult at a beaver camp in 2000. And I personally know a 7 year old who > is a fair hand signer and he can ride a horse and cut tracks as good as > most. You mark my words, Jill's womens group is going to the shame on some > AMMers. > > My point is this. As modern rendezvous go I say to each his own. If all > they want is to porkyvoo let them and more power to them. But why is there > such a strong attitude that excludes young people from higher level events? > Why don't we see more children at AMM events? If we want to pass our > seriousness to the hobby on or stimulate interest as Jim said in his post > that got everyone fired up why arn't we teaching to our own kids? > > I talked to Toas Tom about this the other night. He said "What I wouldn't > have given to have been able to do this stuff as a kid. Man talk about > playground bragging rights!" > > So what do yall think about that? > > Wynn Ormond > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bear Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 01 Apr 2003 09:35:45 -0800 Mr Kelsey I am not much of a rendezvous'er but let me propose a better idea. Rather than trying to bend modern rendezvous to fit the original why not try to emulate the trapper during the other 50 weeks out of the year. You get to have all that fun and you don't have to tell everyone else they can't bring their kids because you want to have horse races through camp and let drunk men fire weapons hopefully into the air. Wynn Ormond WOW, did I touch a nerve or something, sorry if I offended you. You must be a Christian or something. I really didn't mean to upset anybody's apple cart with this chit-chat. I don't believe that I was trying to modify any existing rules for modern rendezvous, I was just stating what I would like to see sometime. As for emulating the trapper the other 50 weeks out of the year, I lived in Alaska for 27 years and tryed my hand at the trapping game. I decided that there were much easier ways of making a living. The same goes for prospecting. Been there, done that!!!! As for racing horses, naw, not me. I'd sooner eat one as ride it.Now we come to getting drunk, you bet, I enjoy it!!! I get to do it maybe two or three times a year. A six-pack will last me a couple of weeks usually. So, you see, I am not a drunk. And I haven't been to a rendezvous since 2001 due to illness, but that don't stop me from saying what's on my mind. Again, sorry if I offended you, have a great day, "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bear Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Extra-Primitive Camps Date: 01 Apr 2003 09:49:03 -0800 I did a fair share of that when I was younger, but was usually by myself. Spent quite a bit of time in the bush in Alaska while I lived up there. My first wife was one of them "plucky" kind of women. My current wife is very "plucky", but that comes from 17 years as a drill instructor in the Army. We still do a rondy once in awhile, but my seneca run days are over. I'd rather set around the fire with a jug and impart words of wisdom on young ears. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 01 Apr 2003 14:53:32 EST In a message dated 3/31/03 4:55:56 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes: << The Rocky Mountain Fur Trade, which was the original subject. John... >> John Not to belabor this, but the man's comments were related to the arbitrary modern time determination to cut off the "mountain man" line at 1840. I can easily got along with you and Hiram Chittendedn for 1843. My comments were to contemporary cut-offs. Hiram was - most will allow - a man viewing the definitions of the 1800s. At this point I will agree with any addendums you wish to tack onto this thread. Cheers for now Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 01 Apr 2003 15:28:27 EST In a message dated 3/31/03 10:00:59 PM, tubears@charter.net writes: << I agree with you that tents were used, but unless a man was riding a horse and had a pack mule/horse, chances are that a tent would not be a high priority item. A load comprised of a bedroll, extra moccasins and maybe some extra clothes, powder and lead to last a season and his trapping gear plus a few incidentals could wear a man down fast. He would also be carrying his rifle, camp axe and knife, fire making stuff, well, you get the picture. Phew, I'm tired already!!!! >> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 01 Apr 2003 15:35:48 EST In a message dated 3/31/03 10:00:59 PM, tubears@charter.net writes: << I agree with you that tents were used, but unless a man was riding a horse and had a pack mule/horse, chances are that a tent would not be a high priority item. A load comprised of a bedroll, extra moccasins and maybe some extra clothes, powder and lead to last a season and his trapping gear plus a few incidentals could wear a man down fast. He would also be carrying his rifle, camp axe and knife, fire making stuff, well, you get the picture. Phew, I'm tired already!!!! >> Bears This a pretty good summation. You might find such a kit would also include a fair amount of trade goods - at least at the beginning of the season. There was a balance - fewer trade goods in the pack equals more plews in the pack by the end of season. Now put yourself in the situation. A pack animal (or two or three) would be loaded down and the back covered with canvas - the first thing you take off when you unload the animal at night (or during the day for him/her to rest and graze). Now you stack your goods in a compact pile and cover them with cloth. Could be there is cloth left over to cover you as well. With a little planning there could be. John Clymer, when he was alive did some remarkable paintings of the subject. He was a great artist - and very dedicated to detail and correctness. This was magnified by his wife who was a dedicated researcher and influenced much of his work. Most sincerely Richard James AMM #79 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bear Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 01 Apr 2003 12:49:50 -0800 Bears This a pretty good summation. You might find such a kit would also include a fair amount of trade goods - at least at the beginning of the season. There was a balance - fewer trade goods in the pack equals more plews in the pack by the end of season. Now put yourself in the situation. A pack animal (or two or three) would be loaded down and the back covered with canvas - the first thing you take off when you unload the animal at night (or during the day for him/her to rest and graze). Now you stack your goods in a compact pile and cover them with cloth. Could be there is cloth left over to cover you as well. With a little planning there could be. John Clymer, when he was alive did some remarkable paintings of the subject. He was a great artist - and very dedicated to detail and correctness. This was magnified by his wife who was a dedicated researcher and influenced much of his work. Most sincerely Richard James AMM #79 Yea, I have seen a painting or two of his I think. My memory don't work so well anymore. I used a packboard up in Alaska and it had a removable pack on it. I would sometimes go out for a week at a time. Depending on the time of year would determine if and what I would carry for food items. I was pretty good at living off the land as fishing, hunting and edible plants are abundant there in the right seasons. Sometimes during the snow months I would have to carry more food items then I really wanted to. I carried a smoke pole and sawed off shotgun on my hip, a camp axe and large hunting knife. Then with camera and stay warm gear, I sometimes had a pretty heavy load. It was worth every minute of it!!! "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Knapp Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #1183 Date: 01 Apr 2003 14:01:39 -0700 > Wynn Ormond wrote... > My point is this. As modern rendezvous go I say to each his own. If all > they want is to porkyvoo let them and more power to them. But why is there > such a strong attitude that excludes young people from higher level events? > Why don't we see more children at AMM events? If we want to pass our > seriousness to the hobby on or stimulate interest as Jim said in his post > that got everyone fired up why arn't we teaching to our own kids?vI talked to Toas Tom about this the other night. He > said "What I wouldn't > have given to have been able to do this stuff as a kid. Man talk about > playground bragging rights!" So what do yall think about that? I've read with interest the posts about post-1840, both pro's and cons. Authenticity vs. "hollywood" (my term) is in the eye of the beholder. It's just that some folks eyes are closed. When Wynn brought up the kids thing I took a bit more notice. I have been doing the mountain man thing only since 1994. My son's have been right along with me from the beginning. We do both hollywood rendezvous and truely primitive camping. I am not an AMM member but have been invited to and participated in a few of the Poison River Party gatherings. I can tell you that they are the most autherntic of ANY events I've ever been to. We (son's and I) went to an event last summer at Green River Lakes in Wyoming. I was invited by a PRP AMM member. We canoed in. with the exception of modern caonoes and life jackets, we truely felt like we had come into an 1820 mountain man camp. Yes women and children were there, but all who played, played by the strictest of primitive rules. Because my kids were allowed to participate and see what a real primitive camp was like, we have gotten more into the serious side of this hobby. We will more than likely still do hollywood rendezvous, but we will not be half assed about it. It kids like mine and Wynn's, and others that will keep the history alive, as long as they are allowed to play and by the rules set forth. I would rather be in the woods with my son's than a lot of other folks I've met at rendezvous, especially if I'm in need. My 2 pence worth. Regards, Dennis Knapp aka Sticher Southern Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ole Jensen Subject: MtMan-List: Doc. Ivory Date: 01 Apr 2003 16:05:40 -0700 Doc, Please contact me off the list. Ole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 01 Mar 2003 21:26:39 -0700 Mr Kelsey I must have come across to strongly. I was not offended in any way. I used the examples of races and drunken shooting because it is my understanding that that was what went on at the original rendezvous, and I think you can see that it could lead to some real problems if you tried to encourage that kind of authenticity. As to me being "a Christian or something" I am still trying to figure that out. Maybe I will get back to you in thirty years or so. > > Mr Kelsey > I am not much of a rendezvous'er but let me propose a better idea. Rather > than trying to bend modern rendezvous to fit the original why not try to > emulate the trapper during the other 50 weeks out of the year. You get to > have all that fun and you don't have to tell everyone else they can't bring > their kids because you want to have horse races through camp and let drunk > men fire weapons hopefully into the air. > > Wynn Ormond > > > WOW, did I touch a nerve or something, sorry if I offended you. You must be > a Christian or something. I really didn't mean to upset anybody's apple cart > with this chit-chat. I don't believe that I was trying to modify any > existing rules for modern rendezvous, I was just stating what I would like > to see sometime ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #1183 Date: 01 Mar 2003 21:47:45 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- . When Wynn brought up the kids thing I took a bit more notice. I > have been doing the mountain man thing only since 1994. . . . .. We (son's and I) went to an event last summer at Green River Lakes in Wyoming. I was invited by a PRP AMM member. We > canoed in. with the exception of modern caonoes and life jackets, we truely felt like we had come into an 1820 mountain man > camp. Yes women and children were there, but all who played, played by the strictest of primitive rules. Because my kids > were allowed to participate and see what a real primitive camp was like, we have gotten more into the serious side of this > hobby Dennis I remember your sons getting a little saddle time on some of our animals at Green River Lake. And that had to be a beautiful float in under those peaks. I reckon that is the essence of my point. It seems like the kids are sort of relegated to the big rendezvoos and not enough seem to be getting to do the real active stuff. I bet if we asked them they would prefer it the other way around. But perhaps I am wrong, or as someone elses post stated wrong with some kids. I look forward to crossing tracks with you and your boys again. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bear Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 02 Apr 2003 06:45:18 -0800 . As to me being "a Christian or something" I am still trying to figure that out. Maybe I will get back to you in thirty years or so. I doubt that I will be around in 30 years or so. The way I am going, I will be lucky to make it another 20 years at the most. Sorry about the "Christian" statement, but my life's experiences have taught me that people that are strongly into organized religion whatever it may be seem to be more quick to respond out of anger or frustration than not. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840 Date: 02 Apr 2003 10:20:46 -0600 Beaver Boy, Thanks for the psycho-analysis. You are a regular Sigmund Fraud. I don't believe my ideas would lead to a migration west. How many more times am I going to have to say I don't want to reenact an immigrant wagon train? You said, "Then he wants to push the expansion of the study and research of the western fur trade. Why? So that even more people fall in love,then move out west to follow their dreams?" Beaver Boy, don't put words in my mouth. You say what's on your mind, I'll say what's on my mind. By the way, what's wrong with pushing the study of the expansion and research of the western fur trade? At least I know you truly understand the intent of my idea. I don't mind you disagreeing, just don't me represent me. I'll do that myself. The purpose of the idea, whether it's good or not, was to generate new interest which in turn might generate more complete knowledge, which in turn might create a better representation of rendezvous (and the period immediatley after it, if it that's what it took to progress). Perhaps then alot of people would stop reenacting a 1970's rendezvous, or they could have their own 1970 rendezvous reenactment, and let those who are a little more serious about history do what it takes to learn more and achieve more. As has been pointed out, rendezvous is hardly authentic now. I really wonder what you all are defending so obstinatley. It's obvious that leather halter tops are the order of the day. I hardly see the harm to authenticity of a rendezvous in extending the period at least to the 1847 period as outlined by John Sweet. It occurs to me some people on the list may think I'm talking about an AMM rendezvous. In my mind an AMM rendezvous is seperate from the western or other rendezvous that I'm referring to. AMM rendezvous are supposed to be more authentic and accurate and serious than others. Two Bears brought up a good idea, as did Wynn Ormond. Any rendezvous could establish its own guidelines, but the extravaganza known as modern rendezvous, could in general extend the time period to at least 1847 without changing the 1970's reenactment look to any great degree. On the other hand, extending it even these few years, could lead to more intense research and all the things that come of that. I know some of you are very attached to reenacting a 1970 rendezvous. Some of us aren't. Jim >From: >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Post 1840 >Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:07:43 -0700 (MST) > >Jim wrote, > > Do you think it is just a bad idea then? > >Dear List, > Jim waxes poetically about the old west that he loves and how the >pioneers and settlers that came later ruined or changed the west for >him. Then he wants to push the expansion of the study and research of >the western fur trade. Why? So that even more people fall in love, >then move out west to follow their dreams? The second or third, fifth, >sixth migration to the west? Watch out for what you wish for. > Jim, you asked in one of your first post on this subject, "Do you >think this is just a bad idea then?" Yes Jim, it's a bad idea, it's a >terrible idea. There, I said it, I'm sorry. Your idea of pushing it to >1860 sucks. > I agree with almost everyone. Kramer is right, L&C to Fort Bridger is >the perfect timeline. Double Edge Forge is right too, they can't get >it right at rendezvous with the dates we have now so why add 20 more >years? > Jim, it's obvious you're a scholar in this field with a great passion >and knowledge for this era but this is not a good idea. > Sincerely and most respectfully yours, > beaverboy > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840 Date: 02 Apr 2003 09:34:43 -0800 How many more times am I > going to have to say I don't want to reenact an immigrant wagon train? None. It's understood. > > You said, "Then he wants to push the expansion of the study and research of > the western fur trade. Why? So that even more people fall in love,then move > out west to follow their dreams?" Beaver Boy, don't put words in my mouth. That is not putting words in your mouth but a speculation on what you might mean or what might be the result of your ideas. In this case bb is talking about modern easterners moving out west cause it is so wonderful out here. Not because they want to re-enact the wagon trains or want to come play Rendezvous. By the way, what's > wrong with pushing the study of the expansion and research of the western > fur trade? Absolutly nothing wrong with the above idea. It's been suggested that if there is interest in such a discussion then it should be discussed. You will admit though that as this list is sponsored by AMM and that group's avowed mission is the study of the "Early" fur trade in the American West/Rocky Mts. from the early 1800's to the mid 1800's that any discussion that carry's too far into the years beyond that are likely going to be viewed as not appropriate and should be carried on elsewhere. But what you propose as subject matter doesn't seem out of line at this point to me at least. I'm interested in what happened to the prinipals and participants of that era, after that era was concidered over. Joe Meek moving on to OR. and being involved in the aftermath of the Whitman Massacre at Walla Walla is a good example. Perhaps then > alot of people would stop reenacting a 1970's rendezvous, or they could have > their own 1970 rendezvous reenactment, and let those who are a little more > serious about history do what it takes to learn more and achieve more. I personally think the point has been well made that expanding the time frame for modern Rendezvous isn't going to help the level of authenticity at those events. Admittedly if folks don't know or don't care about that now, why would introducing a longer time frame help? And let's remember that the whole purpose of the event is to re-create a series of events in history during a fairly specific time line in a fairly specific part of the world. They are not held to re-create what was happening in New York at that time. Again, that goal is not accomplished well but I submit that expanding the time line, the location and the personalities involved will not help that situation one bit. But in any case your talking to the wrong people. You need to talk to the "Booshways" that put on these events and convince them that they should expand the time line. I doubt that very much. Most if not all the people on this list are interested in correct history. That has nothing to do with what type of event we go to but rather the standards we try to set for ourselves when we do go. It's just not going to help a "1970's" rendezvous or a 2003 rendezvous be true in any form to the 1800's rendezvous for me to go dressed up like a person from a later era. Now if you want, let's talk about what happened to various notables of the early fur trade after the Rendezvous Period was over. YMOS Capt. Lahti ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 02 Apr 2003 11:02:02 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2F94A.5843A700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Magpie, I was trying to catch up on my mail and your post caught my eye. Have you used your chronograph to see when increasingly higher and higher powder loads stop gaining you velocity? I would think at some point the powder just is not going to all burn before the ball get out of the barrel. Thanks, Travler -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:02 AM Cc: hist_text@lists.xmission.com In a message dated 3/23/2003 9:38:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, waltharper@starband.net writes: Magpie, for target I shoot 60 fff, for hunting I go all the way to 70 fff in my 54 with a good tight patch Thanks Walt, and all, for the imput. I can shoot a 2-3" group with 120gr 3F (I lied about the 140grs), at 100 yards off the bench, but not nearly as tight with 80grs 3F. I was trying to save a bit of powder with the question, but think I'll back the load to 60gr 3f and work up from there for a "target" load at the shoots. The barrel is a 42", swamped Getz, with a 1 in 66" twist, and has less than 50 balls run down it, so still spankin new. I've got a chronograph, so will see just how fast they go downrange with the light loads.... Magpie ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2F94A.5843A700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Magpie,
 
I was trying to catch up on my mail and your post caught my eye.  Have you used your chronograph to see when increasingly higher and higher powder loads stop gaining you velocity?  I would think at some point the powder just is not going to all burn before the ball get out of the barrel. 
 
Thanks,
 
Travler
-----Original Message-----
From: SWcushing@aol.com [mailto:SWcushing@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:02 AM
To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com
Cc: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Tough crowd/target loads...

In a message dated 3/23/2003 9:38:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, waltharper@starband.net writes:

Magpie,
for target I shoot 60 fff, for hunting I go all the way to 70 fff in my 54 with a good tight patch


Thanks Walt, and all, for the imput.

I can shoot a 2-3" group with 120gr 3F (I lied about the 140grs), at 100 yards off the bench, but not nearly as tight with 80grs 3F. I was trying to save a bit of powder with the question, but think I'll back the load to 60gr 3f and work up from there for a "target" load at the shoots.

The barrel is a 42", swamped Getz, with a 1 in 66" twist, and has less than 50 balls run down it, so still spankin new. I've got a chronograph, so will see just how fast they go downrange with the light loads....

Magpie

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2F94A.5843A700-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840 Date: 02 Apr 2003 13:25:01 -0700 (MST) > Beaver Boy, > Thanks for the psycho-analysis. You are a regular Sigmund Fraud. Your welcomed, no charge for the analysis. I didn't mean to put words into your mouth. You asked if it was a bad idea and I gave my answer. The post were something like 12 to 1 against your idea of extending the rendezvous dates. There's nothing wrong with bad ideas, I get them almost everyday. Again, sorry if I offended you. Cheers, beaverboy aka Sigmund We're heading out to the Yellowstone today and it just started to snow! Perfect weather if you're a duck or a muskrat. Yeah!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840 Date: 02 Apr 2003 14:55:40 -0600 No offense taken. There's more people reading this stuff than just me and you. I wanted them to be clear about what I was really talking about. It's so easy to get sidetracked or misled here. Never did mind people disagreeing with me. Happens all the time. Have fun up on the Yellowstone! Jim >From: >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840 >Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:25:01 -0700 (MST) > > > > Beaver Boy, > > Thanks for the psycho-analysis. You are a regular Sigmund Fraud. > > Your welcomed, no charge for the analysis. > I didn't mean to put words into your mouth. You asked if it was a >bad idea and I gave my answer. The post were something like 12 to 1 >against your idea of extending the rendezvous dates. There's >nothing wrong with bad ideas, I get them almost everyday. > Again, sorry if I offended you. > Cheers, > beaverboy aka Sigmund >We're heading out to the Yellowstone today and it just started to snow! >Perfect weather if you're a duck or a muskrat. Yeah!!! > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Roberts" Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Date: 02 Apr 2003 21:20:56 -0500 FWIW, This evening I stumbled across this University of Virginia hypertext L&C journal which is downloadable as .RTF and searchable: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/JOURNALS/toc.html Hopefully someone can comment regarding from which source this originates. Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment Date: 02 Apr 2003 20:25:41 -0600 Wyn, You are the only horse man I know on this site that would rather ride them than eat them so I'll direct this to you and hope others will chime in. What kind of bit do you use? I've been looking at bridles recently and see nose bands and no nose bands. What do you use? I found that a 1909 cavalry bit (the one with straight rein shank instead of the graceful curved rein shank)is VERY close to mountain man era bits, complete with the bar swollen at the point it meets the cheek piece. Only a little altering would make a very close match. (When I talk of mountain man era I always refer to pre-1850(It's pretty hard to rely only on info strictly before 1840 because such info is pretty rare unless you count Mexican equip). I know the broken bit, or snaffle, was common and have pictures of 1600's curved shank curb. I did a little overview of the heavy wooden stirrups and found most of them represented in paintings after 1840's. I don't recall seeing any in Miller's work. Texas Panhandle Plains Museum has a pair that were supposed to be from Morocco yet Ranney painted an identical pair in 1840's. Anyway this is something I'm going to follow up on. Do you know of any pre 1840's illustrations of those carved wooden stirrups? Well, that is a lot of questions. Sure like to hear what you use and how it works for you. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Norman Anderson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Date: 02 Apr 2003 21:09:17 -0700 >This evening I stumbled across this University of Virginia hypertext L&C journal which is downloadable as .RTF and searchable: >http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/JOURNALS/toc.html >Hopefully someone can comment regarding from which source this originates. >Tom There are four "main" versions of the Lewis and Clark journals and a number of abridged versions. The University of Virginia text appears to come from the Reuben Gold Thwaites version published in 1904. Thwaites published the journals to which he had access--as they were written and without annotation. The hypertext material has been corrected for spelling and punctuation. It has also been substantially shortened. It does give a nice, short version of the trip from the two captains' perspective. The definitive version of the Journals is Gary Moulton's 13 volume edition which is now out in paper. It includes the complete known texts of Lewis, Clark, Sergeants John Ordway, Charles Floyd, Patrick Gass, and Private Joseph Whitehouse. Moulton also has a new one-volume abridged version just out. Respectfully, Norman Anderson ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment Date: 02 Apr 2003 23:25:56 EST Miller shows what is referred to as a Cherokee bridle a simple loop around the lower jaw with one or two rains. I use this or a buffalo hair rope tied int a halter with reins no bit. Millers painting an Indian and his pet shows how to train your horse to stop using light rein and no pit. The Indians rode often without using the head gear and only leg reined. If you thing you need a bit an "O" ring snaffle on a bridle with no nose or brow bands Thanks Mark "Roadkill" Loader ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment Date: 02 Apr 2003 21:30:18 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- > You are the only horse man I know on this site that would rather ride them > than eat them so I'll direct this to you and hope others will chime in. I have never eaten horse meat but I wouild if I had the chance just to say I had. Like the old joke: Don't name your horses their harder to eat that way. > > What kind of bit do you use? I've been looking at bridles recently and see > nose bands and no nose bands. What do you use? > > I found that a 1909 cavalry bit (the one with straight rein shank instead of > the graceful curved rein shank)is VERY close to mountain man era bits, > complete with the bar swollen at the point it meets the cheek piece. Only a > little altering would make a very close match. I am a sucker for bits just like most horseman. I have a fancy silver spade and a bunch of snaffles and a couple leverage bits. I think my favorite is no bit at all but a bosal but now lets talk period stuff. I have not seen historical evidence to support bosals or even the the nice graceful curved rein shank that I have. I think the simple snaffles and straight simple leverage bits are the most correct, even if they are boring. > I did a little overview of the heavy wooden stirrups and found most of them > represented in paintings after 1840's. I don't recall seeing any in Miller's > work. Texas Panhandle Plains Museum has a pair that were supposed to be from > Morocco yet Ranney painted an identical pair in 1840's. Anyway this is > something I'm going to follow up on. Do you know of any pre 1840's > illustrations of those carved wooden stirrups? Although my knowledge is limited I don't believe there is much evidence to support heavy wood stirrups. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Ranney the one who painted strictly from memory and many years later? That doesn't mean you have to throw it all away in my book but it does make it less reliable. Does anyone have evidence for tapadoras? I use good old irons hung from a western style tree similar to what I saw in Kurz drawings on Deans site. It has only a web of leather straps to hold it down and no seat. I want to make a pair of Indian sturrips some day but I haven't got there yet. I have made halters using the popular modern rope style out of manila. I also used a pattern from Ewers book on the Blackfoot horse culture. They made it out of buffalo hide cut two fingers wide I used cotton rope. My gear is perhaps not the best and my horses too tall. It will get better with time. Someone was going to check into historical picket pins a while back did they come up with any old styles or patterns? Wynn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment Date: 02 Apr 2003 23:58:09 -0500 > I have never eaten horse meat but I wouild if I had the chance just to say I > had. Like the old joke: Don't name your horses their harder to eat that > way. I ate it in Egypt in 1982... actually, it is very good, and really tastes better than beef! Regards, Ad --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free by AVG Anti Virus... Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.467 / Virus Database: 266 - Release Date: 4/1/2003 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Date: 02 Apr 2003 22:39:01 -0700 Tom and the list, I've checked this hypertext against all 4 complete published versions of the Lewis and Clark Journals. It appears to have been taken from the edition of 1904, edited by Reuben Gold Thwaites--rather than, as one would have expected, the much more recent and complete version edited by Gary Moulton. Whoever produced the hypertext excerpted from the Thwaites journals (which contain 7 volumes of text) but "cleaned up" the spelling, grammar, and punctuation to make the language more "modern" or "accurate." Frankly, this is a travesty. Part of the color and character of reading the original journals (whether the Thwaites or the Moulton editions) is Clark's eclectic and creative spelling and Lewis's marvelous 18th century language (I know, I know, the journals are early 19th century--but Lewis was a product of the 18th century Enlightenment and wrote in that style). Most of that is lost in this "hypertext". The hypertext also significantly shortens the original journals--and does a much poorer job of condensing the journals than Gary Moulton has done in his recently-published one volume condensation of his magisterial 13 volume work (10 text volumes, 1 atlas volume, 1 volume on the herbarium or plants collected by Lewis, and a 1 volume comprehensive index to the set). If one goes to the printable version of the text on the website, there--and only there--do you find the notation that the "text converted and corrected by William A Muckerheide." The presumption to "correct" the writing of Clark and Lewis staggers the imagination--particularly when it is done by someone who is not a Lewis and Clark scholar. In fact, I have no idea who Mr. Muckerheide is--he is not listed among the students, faculty, or staff of the University of Virginia. If you want a good read, go to the new one volume condensation of the original journals by Gary Moulton. It's the real deal, with ample annotations, and done in a manner designed to whet your appetite for more. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Tom. Respectfully, John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 7:20 PM > FWIW, > > This evening I stumbled across this University of Virginia hypertext L&C > journal which is downloadable as .RTF and searchable: > > http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/JOURNALS/toc.html > > Hopefully someone can comment regarding from which source this originates. > > Tom > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840 Date: 03 Apr 2003 02:36:19 EST --part1_1e5.5ea8595.2bbd3e73_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As has been pointed out, rendezvous is hardly authentic now. I really > wonder what you all are defending so obstinatley. It's obvious that leather > halter > tops are the order of the day. > Not sure who wrote the above statement but I'd suggest you find a more period correct Rendezvous than what you've been attending. There's some great ones here in the Southwest and through the rest of the country no doubt. Every Hobby/Sport/Recreation have those who do it at different levels; some are more authentic than others. Hopefully one day you'll have the chance to get on the ground with some AMM Brothers and experience it from the opposite end of the scale. You may still choose not to attain their level of authenticity for a number of reasons like the porkydoo's ease of living and sheer entertainment value, but you'll have a better picture of Living History today. Barney --part1_1e5.5ea8595.2bbd3e73_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As has been pointed out, rendez= vous is hardly authentic now. I really
wonder what you all are defending so obstinatley. It's obvious that leather=20= halter
tops are the order of the day.


Not sure who wrote the above statement but I'd suggest you find a more perio= d correct Rendezvous than what you've been attending. There's some great one= s here in the Southwest and through the rest of the country no doubt.

Every Hobby/Sport/Recreation have those who do it at different levels; some=20= are more authentic than others. Hopefully one day you'll have the chance to=20= get on the ground with some AMM Brothers and experience it from the opposite= end of the scale. 

You may still choose not to attain their level of authenticity for a number=20= of reasons like the porkydoo's ease of living and sheer entertainment value,= but you'll have a better picture of Living History today.   =          Barney
--part1_1e5.5ea8595.2bbd3e73_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Horse Equipment Date: 03 Apr 2003 08:38:50 -0600 Wyn wrote: "Although my knowledge is limited I don't believe there is much evidence to support heavy wood stirrups. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Ranney the one who painted strictly from memory and many years later? That doesn't mean you have to throw it all away in my book but it does make it less reliable. Does anyone have evidence for tapadoras?" Wyn, Ranney went west in the 30's (Texas) and painted the west he was familiar with into the 1850's. His studio was full of artifacts and props including saddles etc. " Yet the objects around were characteristic of the occupant's experience and taste" (CRAYON, 1858). One might conclude that he was portraying an earlier west even with his later paintings but that is questionable. Taps are something I will check into over the next few years. My guess is that there is nothing new under the sun. The question is "did the mountain men use them", right? Well friend I hope you do well. I am glad you are the keeper of some fine sons; I wish the world had more fathers like you. This has been fun and interesting. I have tried this computor stuff long enough and would rather talk face to face. I hope to meet up with you some day. Maybe in the mountains. Keep an eye out for me and I'll watch for others who look like a memory from a wonderful era. Maybe it will be you Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 03 Apr 2003 13:18:19 EST --part1_11a.20d7978d.2bbdd4eb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/2/2003 11:04:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, nick.de.santis@intel.com writes: > Have you used your chronograph to see when increasingly higher and higher > powder loads stop gaining you velocity? I would think at some point the > powder just is not going to all burn before the ball get out of the barrel. > Naw.... The rains have returned and I haven't had a chance to get back to the range lately. I'm a bit reluctant to add powder till the velocity stops gaining because of the pain involved, (serious recoil!) and a safety thing. I have run the speed up till where the accuracy starts falling off, and see no reason to go any faster with a round ball. Ymos, Magpie --part1_11a.20d7978d.2bbdd4eb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/2/2003 11:04:13 AM Pacific Standa= rd Time, nick.de.santis@intel.com writes:

Have you used your chronograph to see when increasingly hig= her and higher powder loads stop gaining you velocity?  I would think a= t some point the powder just is not going to all burn before the ball get ou= t of the barrel. 


Naw.... The rains have returned and I haven't had a chance to get back to th= e range  lately. I'm a bit reluctant to add powder till the velocity st= ops gaining because of the pain involved, (serious recoil!) and a safety thi= ng. I have run the speed up till where the accuracy starts falling off, and=20= see no reason to go any faster with a round ball.

Ymos,
Magpie --part1_11a.20d7978d.2bbdd4eb_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Horse Equipment Date: 03 Apr 2003 20:58:06 EST --part1_192.18521718.2bbe40ae_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim and Wynn As for bits it is best to use what your Horse works best with. Snaffle bits show up on trade list as being the most predominate bit brought out but so were some Grazing bits. I have a hand foraged Snaffle and a couple of the S still cavalry grazing bits that that I use they are all on wide head stalls with a brow band, throat latch and chin strap. I also have bosela I use It just depends on the horse I'm on and what he works best with. When it comes to horse gear it best to think of the horse first and use what works and fits them. It's better to look bad and have the horse that feels good then to look good and to have a sore horse that it out of control. As for big heavy wood stirrups they were around back then there use dates back before the Rocky Mountain fur trade in Mexico and Spain and other countries same with tapadoras as for putting them in the Rocky Mountains I have not came up with any thing that puts them there. But men did go to California, Sante Fe and Taos and brought back Horses and saddles. So it is likely that they did make it there. I do not like the weight of some of the wood stirrups I've seen, When out on the trail for five or more days with all your gear on the horse you ride weight is very important. I do use tapadoras for the protection they give my mocassined feet. The only other way to go in my book is with a wide platform Indian stile stirrup that would give ya some protection from trees and brush and what not but not as much as the taps do from the weather. Any way these are my thoughts on horse gear. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_192.18521718.2bbe40ae_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim and Wynn
As for bits it is best to use what your Horse works best with. Snaffle b= its show up on trade list as being the most predominate bit brought out but=20= so were some Grazing bits. I have a hand foraged Snaffle and a couple of the= S still cavalry grazing bits that that I use they are all on wide head stal= ls with a brow band, throat latch and chin strap. I also have bosela I use I= t just depends on the horse I'm on and what he works best with. When it come= s to horse gear it best to think of the horse first and use what works and f= its them. It's better to look bad and have the horse that feels good then to= look good and to have a sore horse that it out of control.

As for big heavy wood stirrups they were around back then there use date= s back before the Rocky Mountain fur trade in Mexico and Spain and other cou= ntries same with tapadoras as for putting them in the Rocky Mountains I have= not came up with any thing that puts them there. But men did go to Californ= ia, Sante Fe and Taos and brought back Horses and saddles. So it is likely t= hat they did make it there.

I do not like the weight of some of the wood stirrups I've seen, When ou= t on the trail for five or more days with all your gear on the horse you rid= e weight is very important. I do use tapadoras for the protection they give=20= my mocassined feet. The only other way to go in my book is with a wide platf= orm Indian stile stirrup that would give ya some protection from trees and b= rush and what not but not as much as the taps do from the weather.=20
Any way these are my thoughts on horse gear.
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot --part1_192.18521718.2bbe40ae_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Date: 03 Apr 2003 21:51:45 -0500 John, I was hoping you would comment on this, and expected your comment would be pretty much as you stated. It does seem rather audacious to "correct" any original document. The only possible benefit I can see to this online file is the ability to search for a particular subject, 'bears' for example, note the date, and then go to the printed version for a more accurate study. I currently have only DeVoto's condensation of Thwaites, which at least admits omissions and shortenings up front, but will look for the new Moulton. Thanks! Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 12:39 AM > Tom and the list, > > I've checked this hypertext against all 4 complete published versions of the > Lewis and Clark Journals. It appears to have been taken from the edition of > 1904, edited by Reuben Gold Thwaites--rather than, as one would have > expected, the much more recent and complete version edited by Gary Moulton. > > Whoever produced the hypertext excerpted from the Thwaites journals (which > contain 7 volumes of text) but "cleaned up" the spelling, grammar, and > punctuation to make the language more "modern" or "accurate." > > Frankly, this is a travesty. Part of the color and character of reading the > original journals (whether the Thwaites or the Moulton editions) is Clark's > eclectic and creative spelling and Lewis's marvelous 18th century language > (I know, I know, the journals are early 19th century--but Lewis was a > product of the 18th century Enlightenment and wrote in that style). Most of > that is lost in this "hypertext". The hypertext also significantly shortens > the original journals--and does a much poorer job of condensing the journals > than Gary Moulton has done in his recently-published one volume condensation > of his magisterial 13 volume work (10 text volumes, 1 atlas volume, 1 volume > on the herbarium or plants collected by Lewis, and a 1 volume comprehensive > index to the set). > > If one goes to the printable version of the text on the website, there--and > only there--do you find the notation that the "text converted and corrected > by William A Muckerheide." The presumption to "correct" the writing of Clark > and Lewis staggers the imagination--particularly when it is done by someone > who is not a Lewis and Clark scholar. In fact, I have no idea who Mr. > Muckerheide is--he is not listed among the students, faculty, or staff of > the University of Virginia. > > If you want a good read, go to the new one volume condensation of the > original journals by Gary Moulton. It's the real deal, with ample > annotations, and done in a manner designed to whet your appetite for more. > > Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Tom. > > Respectfully, > > John > > Dr. John L. Allen > 2703 Leslie Court > Laramie, WY 82072-2979 > Phone: (307) 742-0883 > e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Roberts" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 7:20 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark > > > > FWIW, > > > > This evening I stumbled across this University of Virginia hypertext L&C > > journal which is downloadable as .RTF and searchable: > > > > http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/JOURNALS/toc.html > > > > Hopefully someone can comment regarding from which source this originates. > > > > Tom > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840 Date: 04 Apr 2003 01:26:16 EST --part1_11e.20264325.2bbe7f88_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The truth is, if you want an accurate rendezvous, then you have to include a fair number of non-mountain men; missionaries like the Whitmans, treaure seekers like John Sutter, adventurers such as Bonneville, Wyeth and Sir William Drummond Stewart, and clerks--lots of clerks. Don't forget the odd sketch artist/painter. In fact, a rendezvous where everybody is a veteran trapper with many winters in the big Stoney Mountains would be completely bogus--totally ahistorical. If you are at all committed to historical accuracy, then you'll have to include several groups of non-trappers at your rendezvous'. John R. Sweet --part1_11e.20264325.2bbe7f88_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The truth is, if you want an accurate rendezvous, t= hen you have to include a fair number of non-mountain men; missionaries like= the Whitmans, treaure seekers like John Sutter, adventurers such as Bonnevi= lle, Wyeth and Sir William Drummond Stewart, and clerks--lots of clerks. Don= 't forget the odd sketch artist/painter.

In fact, a rendezvous where everybody is a veteran trapper with many winters= in the big Stoney Mountains would be completely bogus--totally ahistorical.= If you are at all committed to historical accuracy, then you'll have to inc= lude several groups of non-trappers at your rendezvous'.

John R. Sweet

 --part1_11e.20264325.2bbe7f88_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840 Date: 03 Apr 2003 23:07:39 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01C2FA35.D2E74DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right on the head John R. Sweet.=20 Capt. L ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hawkengun@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:26 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840 The truth is, if you want an accurate rendezvous, then you have to = include a fair number of non-mountain men; missionaries like the = Whitmans, treaure seekers like John Sutter, adventurers such as = Bonneville, Wyeth and Sir William Drummond Stewart, and clerks--lots of = clerks. Don't forget the odd sketch artist/painter. In fact, a rendezvous where everybody is a veteran trapper with many = winters in the big Stoney Mountains would be completely bogus--totally = ahistorical. If you are at all committed to historical accuracy, then = you'll have to include several groups of non-trappers at your = rendezvous'. John R. Sweet ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01C2FA35.D2E74DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Right on the head John R. Sweet. =
 
Capt. L
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Hawkengun@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 = 10:26=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post = 1840

The truth is, if you want an accurate = rendezvous, then=20 you have to include a fair number of non-mountain men; missionaries = like the=20 Whitmans, treaure seekers like John Sutter, adventurers such as = Bonneville,=20 Wyeth and Sir William Drummond Stewart, and clerks--lots of clerks. = Don't=20 forget the odd sketch artist/painter.

In fact, a rendezvous = where=20 everybody is a veteran trapper with many winters in the big Stoney = Mountains=20 would be completely bogus--totally ahistorical. If you are at all = committed to=20 historical accuracy, then you'll have to include several groups of=20 non-trappers at your rendezvous'.

John R.=20 Sweet

 ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01C2FA35.D2E74DE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Monte Holder" Subject: MtMan-List: Horses and Horse Equipment Date: 04 Apr 2003 08:12:25 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C2FA81.ED2734D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was talking to my brother the other day about buying a horse, he used = to have a few and is interested in getting another one or two (or = however many). Is there any suggestions where a person could see some = of these parts, like the different kinds of bits, and the arrangements = of leather and such? I would also be interested in pictures of = different kinds of saddles used during the period of our interest. Monte Holder Saline Co MO ------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C2FA81.ED2734D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was talking to my brother the other day about buying a horse, he = used to=20 have a few and is interested in getting another one or two (or however=20 many).  Is there any suggestions where a person could see some of = these=20 parts, like the different kinds of bits, and the arrangements of leather = and=20 such?  I would also be interested in pictures of different kinds of = saddles=20 used during the period of our interest.
 
Monte Holder
Saline Co MO
------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C2FA81.ED2734D0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: MtMan-List: Request Date: 04 Apr 2003 16:03:58 -0800

Brothers,  I was asked to spread this request/ info. around.  Here it is.... Thanks, Randy
 
I seek your help in sending smoke signals to the men of Buckskin. I need 9 mountain men
and 1 Afro-American buckskinner to portray Isaac York. This will be during the Lewis &
Clark portion of Custer's Last Stand Reenactment in Hardin, Montana. The dates are
June 19,20,21,22. We are beginning this year to prepare for the 175h anniversary of
Lewis & Clark in our show and I am hoping to have a good turnout in the part of my cast.
If you know anyone interested, please have them contact me as soon as possible.

I do all of my contact work from home so my home email is  lakota@micoks.net   and my
home phone in the evenings is  (913)557-4459.

Thank you for any help you might be able to give and I enjoy your site that I was blessed
to find in my search for good reference spots.

On the trail,

Bear
Director
Custer's last Stand Reenactment

 
 
--- Randal Bublitz
we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,
we are Borrowing it from our Children
 

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Request Date: 04 Apr 2003 18:32:58 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C2FAD8.9DC70120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If Mr. Bear is "beginning this year to prepare for the 175th anniversary = of Lewis & Clark," then he's about 25 years too late. John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randal Bublitz=20 To: hist_text=20 Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 5:03 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Request Brothers, I was asked to spread this request/ info. around. Here it = is.... Thanks, Randy I seek your help in sending smoke signals to the men of Buckskin. I = need 9 mountain men=20 and 1 Afro-American buckskinner to portray Isaac York. This will be = during the Lewis &=20 Clark portion of Custer's Last Stand Reenactment in Hardin, Montana. = The dates are=20 June 19,20,21,22. We are beginning this year to prepare for the 175h = anniversary of=20 Lewis & Clark in our show and I am hoping to have a good turnout in = the part of my cast.=20 If you know anyone interested, please have them contact me as soon as = possible.=20 I do all of my contact work from home so my home email is = lakota@micoks.net and my=20 home phone in the evenings is (913)557-4459.=20 Thank you for any help you might be able to give and I enjoy your site = that I was blessed=20 to find in my search for good reference spots.=20 On the trail,=20 Bear=20 Director=20 Custer's last Stand Reenactment=20 --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C2FAD8.9DC70120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If Mr. Bear is "beginning this year to prepare = for the=20 175th anniversary of Lewis & Clark," then he's about 25 years too=20 late.
 
John
 
Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY = 82072-2979
Phone:=20 (307) 742-0883
e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Randal=20 Bublitz
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 = 5:03=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Request

Brothers,  I was asked to spread this request/ info. = around. =20 Here it is.... Thanks, Randy
 
I seek your help in sending smoke signals to the men = of=20 Buckskin. I need 9 mountain men
and 1 = Afro-American=20 buckskinner to portray Isaac York. This will be during the Lewis = &=20
Clark portion of Custer's Last Stand Reenactment in Hardin, = Montana.=20 The dates are
June 19,20,21,22. We are beginning = this year=20 to prepare for the 175h anniversary of
Lewis & = Clark in=20 our show and I am hoping to have a good turnout in the part of my=20 cast.
If you know anyone interested, please have = them=20 contact me as soon as possible.=20

I do all of my contact work from home so my home email = is =20 lakota@micoks.net   and my
home phone in = the=20 evenings is  (913)557-4459.=20

Thank you for any help you might be able to give and I enjoy = your=20 site that I was blessed
to find in my search for = good=20 reference spots.=20

On the trail,=20

Bear
Director
Custer's = last Stand=20 Reenactment

 
 
--- Randal Bublitz
--- rjbublitz@earthlink.net
=
we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,
we are Borrowing it from our Children
 

---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html = ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C2FAD8.9DC70120-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horses and Horse Equipment Date: 04 Apr 2003 23:12:37 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C2FAFF.AEDCB6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Monte Holder=20 I was talking to my brother the other day about buying a horse, he = used to have a few and is interested in getting another one or two (or = however many). Is there any suggestions where a person could see some = of these parts, like the different kinds of bits, and the arrangements = of leather and such? I would also be interested in pictures of = different kinds of saddles used during the period of our interest. Monte There are two or three articles in the Bof B series on horse equipment = and travel. There are two books of Millers painting that are good to = refer to. Dean's site where you signed up for this group has some pics = by Kurz who is only slightly out of the time and place frame. There is = a great article in the Winter T&LR.=20 Getting invited on a ride with some other horse buckskinners is the = best way to see what is commonly used. Asking a lot of specific = questions on this list is good way to either get answers or start = arguments. Do some research before you buy your horses or tack. It = will likely save you some time and money. Wynn Ormond ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C2FAFF.AEDCB6E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Monte Holder
 

I was talking to my brother the other day about buying a horse, = he used=20 to have a few and is interested in getting another one or two (or = however=20 many).  Is there any suggestions where a person could see some of = these=20 parts, like the different kinds of bits, and the arrangements of = leather and=20 such?  I would also be interested in pictures of different kinds = of=20 saddles used during the period of our interest.
 
 
Monte
There are two or three articles = in the Bof B=20 series on horse equipment and travel.  There are two books of = Millers=20 painting that are good to refer to.  Dean's site where you signed = up for=20 this group has some pics by Kurz who is only slightly out of the time = and=20 place frame.  There is  a great article in the Winter=20 T&LR. 
 
Getting invited on a ride with some = other horse=20 buckskinners is the best way to see what is commonly used.  = Asking a lot=20 of specific questions on this list is good way to either get answers = or start=20 arguments.   Do some research before you buy your horses or=20 tack.  It will likely save you some time and money.
 
Wynn = Ormond
------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C2FAFF.AEDCB6E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bear Kelsey" Subject: MtMan-List: for sale Date: 05 Apr 2003 15:59:12 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2FB8C.4CD7CEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have for sale if I get a fair price a "Thompson Center" Patriot = pistol. It is .45 cal., blued barrel, adjustable rear sight and hooded = front sight. The lock is color case hardened. It will be sold with a = range rod and a wooden stand to hold it for range shooting. The man that = I bought the gun from is a competition handgun shooter and said that he = had bought the gun to try black powder shooting. He told me that he had = done some fine tuning on the trigger system. The last one that I seen at = a gun show that was as good looking as this one was priced at $450.00, = so that is what I am asking for this one. By-the-way, the man I bought = it from said that he had only fired it about a dozen times and I have = only shot it twice. "Two Bears" ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2FB8C.4CD7CEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have for sale if I get a fair price a = "Thompson=20 Center"  Patriot pistol. It is .45 cal., blued barrel, adjustable = rear=20 sight and hooded front sight. The lock is color case hardened. It will = be sold=20 with a range rod and a wooden stand to hold it for range shooting. The = man that=20 I bought the gun from is a competition handgun shooter and said that he = had=20 bought the gun to try black powder shooting. He told me that he had done = some=20 fine tuning on the trigger system. The last one that I seen at a gun = show that=20 was as good looking as this one was priced at $450.00, so that is what I = am=20 asking for this one. By-the-way, the man I bought it from said that he = had only=20 fired it about a dozen times and I have only shot it=20 twice.     "Two Bears"
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2FB8C.4CD7CEC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: MtMan-List: contact me Date: 05 Apr 2003 21:29:05 -0700 Charlie Webb, I tried to email you, but it bounced back. Could you contact me off list? mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment Mark Loader Date: 06 Apr 2003 13:01:49 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- > Miller shows what is referred to as a Cherokee bridle a simple loop around > the lower jaw with one or two rains. I use this or a buffalo hair rope tied > int a halter with reins no bit. Millers painting an Indian and his pet shows > how to train your horse to stop using light rein and no pit. The Indians rode > often without using the head gear and only leg reined. If you thing you need > a bit an "O" ring snaffle on a bridle with no nose or brow bands Mr Loader I have read the using a hair "bosal" if you will permit me to name what I think your describing reduces sensitivity and should only be done for a day or two if needed to get the horse back to paying attention to nose pressure. Something about the prickly hair causes them problems. I have also read bad things about using a rope through the mouth like the indians used. Specifically that it dries up the siliva and encourages a hard mouth, the opposite of having a little copper in the bit. Have you found either of these to be true? I have never tried either so I am just going off what I have read. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Roberts" Subject: MtMan-List: Powder Date: 06 Apr 2003 20:40:39 -0400 FYI, Black powder, all grains including 7F, in (mixed if desired) 25 lb lots is available from: McGee Industries, PO Box 56, Raymond, MS 39154. Phone 601 857 8997 Just bought a load myself and it worked out to $9.12/lb including all fees and shipping. According to McGee, after May 1st shipments can only be to a FFL. Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: Re: MtMan-List: was char cloth, now cleaning Date: 06 Apr 2003 20:42:58 -0500 > >I'm not prepared to answer your last question tonight on whether they >cleaned their guns at all but I assure you that tow on a proper worm works >fine for cleaning my rifle gun in the field or at home. Sorry for taking so long to reply, but I have been away and just got around to checking a whole boat load of e-mails. Don't even need a tow worm. Tie a leather thong or length of cordage around the middle of a small hank of tow, or cloth, if you insist on using it. Push the tow down the bore with the wiping stick, (ram rod), and pull it out using the cordage. The tow should fit the bore as tightly as possible going in, but will usually pull out fairly easy. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Born Subject: MtMan-List: Brain tan Date: 08 Apr 2003 13:53:32 -0600 To anyone interested, I have several brain tanned deer hides ranging from 9.5 - 11.5 sq. ft. They sell for $12 a sq. ft. These are really nice hides. If interested, email me at bornd@earthlink.net Down the Trail, Don Born ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RICK TABOR" Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous? Date: 08 Apr 2003 18:49:44 -0700 Does anyone know of any events on the weekend of the 25th of April in the Northwest? If you do please contact me off list at blackshirt75@hotmail.com. Thanks, R.L.Tabor _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment Mark Loader Date: 08 Apr 2003 23:52:19 EDT Wynn Buffalo hair is much softer than horse hair it seem to present no problem. I do not use a bosal it is more like a soft rope halter. My wife and I use PNH style horsemanship and seldom use bits and never harsh equipment. For the Cherokee bridle a softened raw hide will keep the horses mouth moist. Thanks Mark ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: hunting pouch/shooting bag Date: 09 Apr 2003 20:31:52 EDT --part1_1cf.71a53c5.2bc61578_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I looked up the "old pouch/shooting bag" project on the website but can't link to the pictures. Can someone email the appropriate jpgs to me and/or other shooting bag pics? I'm looking for any good examples. Someone on the list emailed me pictures and description a couple of years ago but was lost when the ol' computer died. Thanks, Ben --part1_1cf.71a53c5.2bc61578_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I looked up the "old pouch/shooting bag" project on th= e website but can't link to the pictures.  Can someone email the approp= riate jpgs to me and/or other shooting bag pics?  I'm looking for any g= ood examples. 

Someone on the list emailed me pictures and description a couple of years ag= o but was lost when the ol' computer died.

Thanks,  Ben --part1_1cf.71a53c5.2bc61578_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous? Date: 09 Apr 2003 18:47:03 -0700 Bonnie Lake Canoe In April 25-27 Put in at Hole-in-the-Ground and paddle north about 2 miles to the island. If you are interested, let me know and I'll send you a map. email kc16@qwest.net Blood On Tue, 2003-04-08 at 18:49, RICK TABOR wrote: > Does anyone know of any events on the weekend of the 25th of April in the > Northwest? If you do please contact me off list at blackshirt75@hotmail.com. > Thanks, > R.L.Tabor > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Guglielmi Subject: MtMan-List: 1840-1860 Date: 11 Apr 2003 15:22:26 -0700 Hello the list, Thought I would add my thoughts on what has been going back and forth lately. first off I want to say how much I enjoy the discussion, aurguments, refernces and banter on the various subjects over this list. I had become some what discouraged over the years at the stagnation at the few events I had attended concerning folks who were recreating the Rocky Mnt fur trade period. I did notice a big jump in the interest in early period (F&I, Colonial, longhunter), along with a renewal in some wonderful fresearch but it seemed the RM fur trade folks were still stuck at the "I are a mountain man-WAUGH!! and pass the Pie" stage. (Although I did enjoy the jug when it came around). At least in my limited view this is what I was seeing. Now if this is what folks wanted to do thats fine but I wanted more. So with out getting to long winded, what I am trying to say is this list and a few other web sites I have stumbled on has rekindled my desire for the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade period. Now with that said I also want to express my views on the 1840-1860 topic period that has been discussed lately. I personaly have a great interest in this time period for several reasons. 1) There seems to be a general void of this time so that in itself makes me want to study and find out more of what went on during this time. 2) As I mature (some would say get old) I tend to take my persona in real time and so as a aging mountaineer I am faced with the reality of the challenges that were happening as the beaver trade diminished and new events filled that void. 3) I have a real passion for the early western armies, especially the horse soldiers (Dragoons) and the men that they relied on to lead them across the western country (usually old mountaineers) I realize this is not for everyone, especially on this particular list but in a way it all inter-connects. In the never ending quest to research and devlelope the most accurate portrate of our chosen period and persona I try not to over look anything that may shed new light on the subject. If anyone has an interest in the 1840-1860 time and would like to share thoughts and/or other web sites they can certainly conntact me at rickg@oregontrail.net. In the mean time I look forward everytime I check my e-mail and see what new and exciting subjects that are being dicussed here. Rick Guglielmi ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous? Date: 11 Apr 2003 21:42:11 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C30073.35529730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick Last time I updated my list this is what I had... call to check on = status. Apr. 23-27 Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders, Oakridge OR Dick (541) 726-7056 Bruce (541) 946-1341 Apr. 25-27 Eureka MT Tobacco River Muzzleloaders Rendezvous Larry (406) 889-3445 Stan (406) 296-2489 Apr. 25-27 Wenaha Muzzleloaders Spring Shoot Troy, OR Rick Gorte (541) 963-9198 Neil Morris (541) 432-7085 Apr. 25-27 Skagit Muzzleloaders Rendezvous Sedro Woolley, WA. Becky Edson (360) 293-9782 Darrell McClanahan (425-670-1712 Apr 25-27 Oregon Gunmaker's Fair=20 1370 Linn Road, Eagle Point, Oregon Ron Scott (541) 826-9282 Regards Lee Newbill of North Idaho AMM# 1821 http://www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:49 PM > Does anyone know of any events on the weekend of the 25th of April in = the=20 > Northwest? If you do please contact me off list at = blackshirt75@hotmail.com. > Thanks, > R.L.Tabor >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* =20 > http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C30073.35529730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rick
 
Last time I updated my list this is = what I had...=20 call to check on status.

Apr. 23-27
Frog = Holler Primitive=20 Rendezvous
Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders, Oakridge OR
Dick (541)=20 726-7056
Bruce (541)=20 946-1341

Apr. 25-27
Eureka = MT
Tobacco=20 River Muzzleloaders Rendezvous
Larry (406) = 889-3445
Stan (406) = 296-2489

Apr. 25-27
Wenaha Muzzleloaders = Spring=20 Shoot
Troy, OR
Rick Gorte (541) 963-9198
Neil Morris (541)=20 432-7085

Apr. = 25-27
Skagit=20 Muzzleloaders Rendezvous
Sedro Woolley, WA.
Becky Edson (360)=20 293-9782
Darrell McClanahan = (425-670-1712

Apr 25-27
Oregon Gunmaker=92s Fair =
1370 Linn=20 Road, Eagle Point, Oregon
Ron Scott (541) 826-9282

Regards

Lee Newbill of North Idaho
AMM# = 1821
http://www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com
http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle
http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "RICK TABOR" <blackshirt75@hotmail.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:49 = PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Rendezvous?

> Does anyone know of any events on the weekend of the 25th = of April=20 in the
> Northwest? If you do please contact me off list at = blackshirt75@hotmail.com.
>=20             &= nbsp;         =20 Thanks,
>=20             &= nbsp;          =20 R.L.Tabor
>
>
>
>
>
>=20 _________________________________________________________________
>= The=20 new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*  =
>=20 http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail
>
>
> = ----------------------
>=20 hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html> ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C30073.35529730-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David A Miller Subject: MtMan-List: Flintlock Cleaning Date: 15 Apr 2003 11:57:11 -0600 Hi History buffs!!! I have a question. I was given a Lancaster Flintlock longrifle. And I was wondering how to clean it after firing? I own a percussion, mountain rifle, and it looks like it cleans different (since I am able to remove the barrel and all for cleaning). So if any of you out there could help me, it would be great appreciated. Dave ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bear Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock Cleaning Date: 15 Apr 2003 11:34:01 -0700 So if any of you out there could help me, it would be great appreciated. Dave I wrap a rag around my Hatfield right in back of the lock so the cleaning fluids that come out of the touch hole won't run down the stock and then just keep running wet patches in the barrel until they come out clean. Works good, just takes longer then doing the cap locks where you can remove the barrel. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock Cleaning Date: 15 Apr 2003 16:21:11 -0400 Dave, For field cleaning I'm only interested in removing as much crud from the barrel as soon as is practical and as simple as possible. I plug the touch hole with anything handy, pour a bit of water (hot if you got it) in the barrel, then using tow on a tow worm or any patching material on the ramrod swab the length of the barrel a few times, then pull the touch hole plug and plunge it through. I repeat this once or twice until the water runs clear. Following that, a few dry wipes, finishing with a bear greased patch. For more thorough (i.e. at home) cleaning I do the same, except I use water nearly boiling hot and spend more time in the process. After the barrel, I remove the lock and scrub it, as well as all mating surfaces, with a small brush and hot water. I warm the lock to drive out the moisture, check that all the metal rub surfaces are still polish-smooth, and then everything metal gets a wipe with bear grease before reinstallation. I'm amazed at how much crud gets around the lock. The stock gets wiped with Kramer's Antique Improver. I'm sure others will add their own methods as there seems to be a limitless variety, using a wide array of interesting products. For me, water and bear grease is plenty. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 1:57 PM > Hi History buffs!!! > > I have a question. I was given a Lancaster Flintlock longrifle. And I > was wondering how to clean it after firing? > > I own a percussion, mountain rifle, and it looks like it cleans different > (since I am able to remove the barrel and all for cleaning). > > So if any of you out there could help me, it would be great appreciated. > > Dave > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Mt. Man Felt Hat Date: 15 Apr 2003 16:41:12 EDT Hello the camp just order a 80% beaver felt but need some sugestions. How high should the crown be? Should it have a band on the out side "hat band"? Should it have a sweat band on the inside? The guy that is making it made hats for Ronald Regan and George Bush Some of his equipment goes back to the 1850s Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:15:00 -0500 Date: 19 Apr 2003 07:15:15 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C3064B.C5EA0CF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Click here for a treasure trove of potential information. Apparently = everything is there. =20 Lanney http://www.archives.gov/aad/ Lanney Ratcliff lanneyratcliff@charter.net ______________________________________________________________ Aux Aliments du Pays ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C3064B.C5EA0CF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Click here for a treasure = trove of=20 potential information.  Apparently everything is there.  =
Lanney
 
http://www.archives.gov/aad/
 
 
Lanney Ratcliff
lanneyratcliff@charter.net=
______________________________________________________________
Aux= =20 Aliments du Pays
------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C3064B.C5EA0CF0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle Kit Date: 19 Apr 2003 07:25:35 -0600 (MDT) Dear List, I received my Pecatonica River gun kit a few days ago! I am extremely pleased with it. Richard Greensides was a very pleasant person to work with. He promised it in two weeks and I got it in three weeks which was quite alright with me. All the wood and metal parts were of excellent quality. I ended up choosing the Transitional Southern rifle in .54 caliber with a 36 inch Green Mountain barrel with the 1-70" twist. I look forward to many hunting trips packing this fine rifle around. I would highly recommend Pecatonica River Long River Supply to anyone looking for a nice gun kit. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn Man felt hat Date: 19 Apr 2003 19:14:34 -0500 Mark You asked: To all questions: Yes and No and not so high and very high. Waddayawant? And what do you want it to be? I don't believe the RMFT guys had any fixed style or uniform. Do what floats yer stick. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Kit Date: 19 Apr 2003 22:38:19 -0500 bb I found the web site for your rifle kit supplier: http://www.longrifles-pr.com/ Pretty good looking site. I was a little confused at first before I realized that you meant to say "......Long RIFLE Supply" instead of " Long River Supply". Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:25 AM > Dear List, > I received my Pecatonica River gun kit a few days ago! I am > extremely pleased with it. Richard Greensides was a very pleasant > person to work with. He promised it in two weeks and I got it in > three weeks which was quite alright with me. All the wood and metal > parts were of excellent quality. > I ended up choosing the Transitional Southern rifle in .54 caliber > with a 36 inch Green Mountain barrel with the 1-70" twist. I look > forward to many hunting trips packing this fine rifle around. > I would highly recommend Pecatonica River Long River Supply to > anyone looking for a nice gun kit. > bb > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Kit Date: 20 Apr 2003 14:14:54 -0600 (MDT) You are correct sir. I caught it the first time but missed that on the last sentence. When I till friends where I got it they usually say "Peca..What?" bb > bb > I found the web site for your rifle kit supplier: > http://www.longrifles-pr.com/ Pretty good looking site. I was a little > confused at first before I realized that you meant to say "......Long > RIFLE Supply" instead of " Long River Supply". > Lanney > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:25 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle Kit > > >> Dear List, >> I received my Pecatonica River gun kit a few days ago! I am >> extremely pleased with it. Richard Greensides was a very pleasant >> person to work with. He promised it in two weeks and I got it in three >> weeks which was quite alright with me. All the wood and metal parts >> were of excellent quality. >> I ended up choosing the Transitional Southern rifle in .54 >> caliber >> with a 36 inch Green Mountain barrel with the 1-70" twist. I look >> forward to many hunting trips packing this fine rifle around. >> I would highly recommend Pecatonica River Long River Supply to >> anyone looking for a nice gun kit. >> bb >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Turkeys 0, Trappers 1 Date: 20 Apr 2003 16:16:30 -0600 (MDT) Dear List, After 1112 miles of driving, 5 days and a lot of money, I got my spring Gobbler! It's my second spring gobbler with my fusee! I've killed a ton of turkeys but none mean more to me than the ones I get with my fusee! I went hunting this morning as I figured all the good Christians would be home or at church like they should be. That would leave the woods to serious turkey hunting heathens like myself. Just kidding, I prayed while up there and gave thanks. I also never worked so hard in my life for a Tom. God made me pay for this Gobbler. There was a snowstorm up there Friday and only a little bit of it had melted since then. I was walking in snow up to my knees at times. It was a crusty snow too, which was extremely noisy in the early morning frost. I no sooner took several steps on the crunching snow and just about turned around to go home. But you don't get gobblers sitting at home do you? Only two others guys were there, a couple of young Bucks from Bozeman. We discussed where we all planned to go as not to mess up our hunts. They were staying together and staying low, I would go high.I cut their tracks once in the snow early on but never again. I know this area well so headed up to the high country. The higher I got the deeper the snow got. I've hunted this area for at least 14 years if not longer and these were the worse conditions I ever encountered. The hard crusty snow was deep, noisy but not strong enough to hold me. I'm sure it was strong enough to hold the turkeys though. I followed in some fresh elk tracks when I could. I was plum worn out before too long. I was even packing my .44 pistol as this is good black bear country and I have a bear tag. I know I can kill a black bear with my fusee but I can't switch from shot to ball very quickly. I guess I could pack my .54 capper pistol. I never thought of that till just now. I guess it doesn't matter as I can load up with ball and go for just bear from now on. Anyway, I heard some gobbling but way up high so I started my assent. Merriam's turkeys are true mountain turkeys and they like it up high. Just below tree line is just fine with them. I messed around with several jakes I sneaked up on but they were too shy. I ended up calling in an almost silent Tom. He only gobbled 4 times all morning. I just happen to be in the right place at the right time when he gobbled last. I did some soft yelps on my good old Roger Latham slate call and within five minutes he came up through the thick ponderosa pine forest. I first mistook his legs moving in the distant timber for elk legs till I caught a glimpse of him in sunny spot and got a quick look and realized how much closer it was then I first thought. I sweet-talked him in the final five yards with just my mouth doing soft putts and clucks. He never knew what hit him. 25 yard shot with an ounce of #5 shot and 85 grains of ff, ffff for priming. I don't have a vent liner; just a hole coned on the outside, but had a very quick ignition with a hand knapped flint. He went down like a ton of bricks. I twisted his neck and gave thanks. He showed up so quickly (this time, after hearing him gobble 3 times in 2 hours over 1 mile of mountainside and him never coming in) that I didn't have time to get overly excited or even think about it. This has been a typical opening week of turkey hunting in Montana; we had record highs of 80+ degrees and ended the week with knee-deep snow! My Tom weighs 19 pounds with the guts and has a 6 1/2" beard. Spurs not worth mentioning. I'm glad I got him; the world doesn't need any more silent Toms! We have to wipe that gene pool out! I thank God for a fine hunt and wish all you other turkey hunters have good luck; I'm going to bed now. Happy Easter Beaverboy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turkeys 0, Trappers 1 Date: 20 Apr 2003 15:47:44 -0700 > I thank God for a fine hunt and wish all you other turkey hunters > have good luck; I'm going to bed now. > Happy Easter > Beaverboy Well done and well told. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: question Date: 20 Apr 2003 21:07:22 EDT --part1_181.19d580cf.2bd49e4a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable question: I looked up the "old pouch/shooting bag" project on the website=20 but can't link to the pictures.=A0 Can someone email the appropriate jpgs to= me=20 and/or other shooting bag pics?=A0 I'm looking for any good examples.=A0=20 Someone on the list emailed me pictures and description a couple of years ag= o=20 but was lost when the ol' computer died. Thanks,=A0 Ben Rainey, Maryland --part1_181.19d580cf.2bd49e4a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable question:  I looked up the "old pouch/shooting ba= g" project on the website but can't link to the pictures.=A0 Can someone ema= il the appropriate jpgs to me and/or other shooting bag pics?=A0 I'm looking= for any good examples.=A0

Someone on the list emailed me pictures and description a couple of years ag= o but was lost when the ol' computer died.

Thanks,=A0 Ben Rainey, Maryland
 --part1_181.19d580cf.2bd49e4a_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man felt hat Date: 20 Apr 2003 21:36:39 -0600 Mark I had hoped you would get a better responce than you have so I will throw in for what its worth. Crown: Millers hats look mostly like skull caps, so low in some cases they would not come down as far most guys like a hat to fit. His one exception is the one that Stewart wears which is dark and made higher and then shaped to be about as low. The couple other later artists are not as consistant. Kurtz shows plenty of variety; some that could pass for regular cowboy hats. Nick Point 1841 shows RMFT John Grey in a light colored hat similar in design to Stewarts. His full view of a "Free Hunter" appears to have a hat that is at least not as low as Millers. Brim The width varies all over the place, as does the shape. Color We see plenty of both light and dark and some trade lists are more specific but that is out of my realm. Bands Just working from memory I think that Miller shows a lot of stuff being on the hats so there must be some kind of band holding it. I know of one referance to Freeman wearing ribbons on their hats. I think the interior band is personal preferance. If I were having a hat made it would have one because it gives the hat a lot of definition and sizing. Since I am cheap most of my hats aren't that fancy and they dont have interior bands. Personal comment I sometimes worry that we end up looking a little to cowboy. Not that it isnt documented but leather leggings over cloth pants, a hat that is shaped quite a bit like a flat cowboy hat, and lose shirt leave a pretty cowboy look. I personally like to find a hat on someones head in a piece of art work and try for that look. Dont be afraid to turn the back or the front up a little like Miller shows Walker. Lower crowns avoid the look of just modifying an old cowboy hat. Good luck on getting what might be an old friend. Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 6:14 PM > Mark > You asked: > How high should the crown be? > Should it have a band on the out side "hat band"? > Should it have a sweat band on the inside?> > To all questions: Yes and No and not so high and very high. > Waddayawant? And what do you want it to be? I don't believe the RMFT > guys had any fixed style or uniform. Do what floats yer stick. > > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, AR > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man felt hat Date: 20 Apr 2003 21:44:18 -0700 Mark, Check out this site if you want to look at some styles http://www.clearwaterhats.com/ Teton On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:36:39 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" writes: > Mark > > I had hoped you would get a better responce than you have so I will > throw in > for what its worth. > > Crown: > Millers hats look mostly like skull caps, so low in some cases they > would > not come down as far most guys like a hat to fit. His one exception > is the > one that Stewart wears which is dark and made higher and then shaped > to be > about as low. The couple other later artists are not as consistant. > Kurtz > shows plenty of variety; some that could pass for regular cowboy > hats. Nick > Point 1841 shows RMFT John Grey in a light colored hat similar in > design to > Stewarts. His full view of a "Free Hunter" appears to have a hat > that is > at least not as low as Millers. > > Brim > The width varies all over the place, as does the shape. > > Color > We see plenty of both light and dark and some trade lists are more > specific > but that is out of my realm. > > Bands > Just working from memory I think that Miller shows a lot of stuff > being on > the hats so there must be some kind of band holding it. I know of > one > referance to Freeman wearing ribbons on their hats. I think the > interior > band is personal preferance. If I were having a hat made it would > have one > because it gives the hat a lot of definition and sizing. Since I am > cheap > most of my hats aren't that fancy and they dont have interior > bands. > > Personal comment > I sometimes worry that we end up looking a little to cowboy. Not > that it > isnt documented but leather leggings over cloth pants, a hat that is > shaped > quite a bit like a flat cowboy hat, and lose shirt leave a pretty > cowboy > look. I personally like to find a hat on someones head in a piece > of art > work and try for that look. Dont be afraid to turn the back or the > front up > a little like Miller shows Walker. Lower crowns avoid the look of > just > modifying an old cowboy hat. > > Good luck on getting what might be an old friend. > Wynn Ormond > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frank Fusco > To: hist_text-digest > Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 6:14 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn Man felt hat > > > > Mark > > You asked: > > sugestions. > > How high should the crown be? > > Should it have a band on the out side "hat band"? > > Should it have a sweat band on the inside?> > > To all questions: Yes and No and not so high and very high. > > Waddayawant? And what do you want it to be? I don't believe > the RMFT > > guys had any fixed style or uniform. Do what floats yer stick. > > > > Frank G. Fusco > > Mountain Home, AR > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man felt hat Date: 21 Apr 2003 00:06:19 EDT --part1_70.2d370ef4.2bd4c83b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good references on hats-- thanks for the info. John R. Sweet --part1_70.2d370ef4.2bd4c83b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good references on hats-- thanks for the info.

John R. Sweet
 --part1_70.2d370ef4.2bd4c83b_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 21 Apr 2003 11:25:09 -0400 ben rainey it may have been me that sent you a set of patterns and instructions for making a shooting bag that i usto sell in a kit form---will be a couple of weeks before i can dragg out my files as they are packed for moving still have the instruction sheets but dont know if i have the patterns ---the pattern was for a double beavertail bag with inner pockets for small tools and gun assessories it also had a patch knife sheeth that could be put on the strap or on the back side of the bag--the pattern was from a original bag i have that i made a copy of---I also have a pattern of a small hunting bag that is what i call a kidney bag---Very small and used with a small caliber hunting rifle also a original pattern---I liked both of them so much i made new ones like them to use. the double beavertail has a real wide strap at the top of the sholder and requires 2 d rings and a couple of buckels ---the kidney bag has a brass push over closure that i dont use--- "Hawk" ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 21 Apr 2003 13:40:19 EDT --part1_43.1b905970.2bd58703_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Hawk", I appreciate the follow up. When you run across them in unpacking keep me in mind. Ben --part1_43.1b905970.2bd58703_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Hawk",
I appreciate the follow up.  When you run across them in unpacking keep= me in mind.  Ben --part1_43.1b905970.2bd58703_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 21 Apr 2003 12:42:16 -0500 Some of the items Hawk is referring to can be viewed online at: http://www.kramers.org/hawknest/ John... At 10:25 AM 4/21/03, you wrote: >ben rainey >it may have been me that sent you a set of patterns and instructions for >making a shooting bag that i usto sell in a kit form---will be a couple >of weeks before i can dragg out my files as they are packed for moving >still have the instruction sheets but dont know if i have the patterns >---the pattern was for a double beavertail bag with inner pockets for >small tools and gun assessories it also had a patch knife sheeth that >could be put on the strap or on the back side of the bag--the pattern was >from a original bag i have that i made a copy of---I also have a pattern >of a small hunting bag that is what i call a kidney bag---Very small and >used with a small caliber hunting rifle also a original pattern---I liked >both of them so much i made new ones like them to use. the double >beavertail has a real wide strap at the top of the sholder and requires 2 >d rings and a couple of buckels ---the kidney bag has a brass push over >closure that i dont use--- > >"Hawk" > >________________________________________________________________ >The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! >Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! >Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: mirage.... Date: 22 Apr 2003 01:08:10 EDT --part1_117.22565399.2bd6283a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got to doing some speed shooting (read two shots a minute...) with my Tulle last week and got the barrel rather warm. Might have been just me, but seemed that with the mirage from the warm barrel, my shots started hitting lower (2-4inches) on the mark. After letting the gun cool, the next shot went right back up on target.... Has anyone played with the mirage effect while shooting, and how to compensate for it? Is shooting low always the end result...? Nice work on the turkey Beaverboy..... I'm gonna terrorize em next week. Magpie --part1_117.22565399.2bd6283a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I got to doing some speed shooting (read two shots a m= inute...) with my Tulle last week and got the barrel rather warm. Might have= been just me, but seemed that with the mirage from the warm barrel, my shot= s started hitting lower (2-4inches) on the mark. After letting the gun cool,= the next shot went right back up on target....
Has anyone played with the mirage effect while shooting, and how to compensa= te for it? Is shooting low always the end result...?

Nice work on the turkey Beaverboy..... I'm gonna terrorize em next week.

Magpie --part1_117.22565399.2bd6283a_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mirage.... Date: 21 Apr 2003 22:32:47 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C30855.EF47AC40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've gotten heat waves on my Chambers rifle that made me shoot high. = Where you going after turkeys? Capt. L ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SWcushing@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 10:08 PM Subject: MtMan-List: mirage.... I got to doing some speed shooting (read two shots a minute...) with = my Tulle last week and got the barrel rather warm. Might have been just = me, but seemed that with the mirage from the warm barrel, my shots = started hitting lower (2-4inches) on the mark. After letting the gun = cool, the next shot went right back up on target....=20 Has anyone played with the mirage effect while shooting, and how to = compensate for it? Is shooting low always the end result...? Nice work on the turkey Beaverboy..... I'm gonna terrorize em next = week. Magpie ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C30855.EF47AC40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've gotten heat waves on my Chambers = rifle that=20 made me shoot high. Where you going after turkeys?
 
Capt. L
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SWcushing@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 = 10:08=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = mirage....

I got to doing some speed shooting (read two = shots a=20 minute...) with my Tulle last week and got the barrel rather warm. = Might have=20 been just me, but seemed that with the mirage from the warm barrel, my = shots=20 started hitting lower (2-4inches) on the mark. After letting the gun = cool, the=20 next shot went right back up on target....
Has anyone played with = the=20 mirage effect while shooting, and how to compensate for it? Is = shooting low=20 always the end result...?

Nice work on the turkey = Beaverboy..... I'm=20 gonna terrorize em next week.

Magpie=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C30855.EF47AC40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mirage.... Date: 22 Apr 2003 01:25:06 -0400 magpie when you get that change from heat from fireing real fast check the pins or wedges in your rifle there is no movement in them they should be slotted for and aft not up and down this will solve your problem ---only the most forward one should hold the barrel fully down--- nuff said "Hawk" ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mirage.... Date: 22 Apr 2003 04:09:46 -0600 (MDT) Good Luck Hunting. > I got to doing some speed shooting (read two shots a minute...) with my > Tulle last week and got the barrel rather warm. Might have been just > me, but seemed that with the mirage from the warm barrel, my shots > started hitting lower (2-4inches) on the mark. After letting the gun > cool, the next shot went right back up on target.... > Has anyone played with the mirage effect while shooting, and how to > compensate for it? Is shooting low always the end result...? > > Nice work on the turkey Beaverboy..... I'm gonna terrorize em next week. > > Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mirage.... Date: 22 Apr 2003 20:32:14 EDT In a message dated 4/21/03 11:09:13 PM, SWcushing@aol.com writes: << Has anyone played with the mirage effect while shooting, and how to compensate for it? Is shooting low always the end result...? >> I used to have a .58 custom made Hawken (before there were kits and TC Hawkens, etc.) with a 1 & 1/8" across-the-flats barrel. It was worst on a sunny, snowy (meaning snow on the ground) day. I only noticed it in competition target shooting. In the field I guess I was out of the sun and not affected. Never did learn how to actually compensate for it except to realize there were visual heat waves rising off it and take a litte time to allow for it. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mirage.... Date: 23 Apr 2003 12:59:04 EDT --part1_127.27c9b788.2bd82058_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/21/2003 10:33:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, amm1719@charter.net writes: > I've gotten heat waves on my Chambers rifle that made me shoot high. Hi Capt.... Yeah, go figure. I would have thought the rising "air" off the hot barrel would "lift" the mark also....and it would shoot high. Maybe it's the thin walled Tulle barrel being pulled down as it warms up, like Hawk sez... I'll play with it some more... <> I think Johnny and I are going up in the NE by Biscuit's camp.... Sez he's got some Jakes that will eat out of his hand, so maybe we'll use him as a decoy... Magpie --part1_127.27c9b788.2bd82058_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/21/2003 10:33:57 PM Pacific Dayli= ght Time, amm1719@charter.net writes:

I've gotten heat waves on my Ch= ambers rifle that made me shoot high.


Hi Capt.... Yeah, go figure. I would have thought the rising "air" off the h= ot barrel would "lift" the mark also....and it would shoot high. Maybe it's=20= the thin walled Tulle barrel being pulled down as it warms up, like Hawk sez= ... I'll play with it some more...

<<Where you going after turkeys?>>
I think Johnny and I are going up in the NE by Biscuit's camp.... Sez he's g= ot some Jakes that will eat out of his hand, so maybe we'll use him as a dec= oy...

Magpie

 --part1_127.27c9b788.2bd82058_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mirage.... Date: 23 Apr 2003 11:45:11 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01C3098D.CC078730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Johnny and I are going up in the NE by Biscuit's camp.... Sez = he's got some Jakes that will eat out of his hand, so maybe we'll use = him as a decoy... Sounds like a good idea. Aim careful. Don't want to just wound. My problem was part mirage and part rear sight too far back. I moved = it forward about 6 inches and it works much better.=20 I'm not sure that I will get out after turkeys at all this year. We'll = just have to see how it goes. Have fun and bring home a big beard. Capt. L Magpie ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01C3098D.CC078730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
I think Johnny and I are going up in the NE by = Biscuit's=20 camp.... Sez he's got some Jakes that will eat out of his hand, so = maybe we'll=20 use him as a decoy...
Sounds like a good idea. Aim careful. Don't want = to just=20 wound.
 
My problem was part mirage and part rear sight = too far=20 back. I moved it forward about 6 inches and it works much better.=20
 
I'm not sure that I will get out after turkeys at = all this=20 year. We'll just have to see how it goes. Have fun and bring home a = big=20 beard.
 
Capt. L


Magpie

 ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01C3098D.CC078730-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: MtMan-List: Trade Gun? Date: 27 Apr 2003 00:18:25 -0600 (MDT) Dear List, I was at the Gun Show today and one merchant had a trade gun of sorts for sale. Perhaps someone knows more about it. It seem to be about .20 ga with a 52" barrel. It had no markings other than two very small barrel proof marks, which I couldn't even make out. The barrel was octagon to round, very slender at the breech with one very weak wedding band. The stock was very slender, more so than any other trade gun I've ever seen. It also had no serpent side plate but a simple brass plate. Another gun trader there said it was a Belgian made trade gun for the African natives. He said these were made or at least sold up until the 1950's out of a catalog called Stokers. He didn't want much for it but I would have been afraid to load it too hot as the barrel was soon thin at the breech. Does anyone know more about this type of gun? bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List:History Channel Date: 27 Apr 2003 15:01:04 EDT Hello the camp Here are a few programs that might be of interest Monday on the History Channel. 12 AM to 4 PM Mountain time also earlier starting at 6 AM Frontier Legends 12 Noon Rogers Rangers 1 PM Pontiac's Rebellion 2 PM Long Knifes 3 PM Tecumseh Louisiana Purchase 7 PM Technology of Lewis and Clark 8 PM Thanks Mark "Roadkill" Loader ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Zeigler" Subject: MtMan-List: TL&R Question Date: 27 Apr 2003 15:11:33 -0400 Hello the camp: I have been an associate member of the AMM for abour 15 yrs now. Somehow I left my membership lapse and am now missing the last two issues (nov. 02, and feb. 03 ) of the TL&R. I have saved all the issues since joining and would really appreciate any help in getting these back issues....Thank you in advance..jim kodiak@ptd.net ps: Please respond off list as I fully understand this is off topic.... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe) Subject: MtMan-List: Straighting Antler Date: 27 Apr 2003 18:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Ho the List! I've got a nice piece of crown end antler that I what to rehaft and old knife blade with,my question to the group is can I boil and soften like bone so I can straighten it for a better fit ? Your Servant, Michael A. Smith http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List:History Channel Date: 27 Apr 2003 16:41:39 -0600 (MDT) Mark, The "Technology of L&C" special features members of the group I belong to, the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard of Great Falls, Montana. They'll be the ones pulling around the dugout on a cart. Thought you might like to know. Beaverboy > Hello the camp > Here are a few programs that might be of interest Monday on the History > Channel. > 12 AM to 4 PM Mountain time also earlier starting at 6 AM > Frontier Legends > 12 Noon Rogers Rangers > 1 PM Pontiac's Rebellion > 2 PM Long Knifes > 3 PM Tecumseh > > Louisiana Purchase 7 PM > > Technology of Lewis and Clark 8 PM > > Thanks Mark "Roadkill" Loader > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:History Channel Date: 27 Apr 2003 23:26:32 EDT Beaver boy which one are you and who else? Thanks for the info Mark ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straighting Antler Date: 27 Apr 2003 23:29:01 EDT Michael I did not know you could boil and soften bone Mark "Roadkill" Loader ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List:History Channel Date: 27 Apr 2003 22:16:12 -0600 (MDT) Mark, I'm not in it. I was there bright and early with the rest of the crew but had to leave. I didn't mind. I've been with the group on lots of other shoots and most of them really are a pain. Lots of takes after takes. I'm not sure how much they are going to use but they were mostly interested in our dugout, tools and having some of our youngest members filmed for the show. So don't be surprised if all you see of most of the guys are their feet and legs as they pull the dugout. I don't have the History Channel but will see a tape sooner or later. We did a shoot for the BBC several years ago were we pulled one of our dugouts again. Since they already had British actors for the roles they only filmed our hands, feet and legs and long shots. So our feet,and legs are up for acting awards! We did the show Extreme Cuisine, on the food channel, a few years ago where we cooked a bunch of dead critters. I cooked a beaver. I really don't care if I ever look in a camera again. We, as a group, are more concerned about educating and inspiring the public about this incredibly era in American history. I did find myself on the enternet the other day. Go to Altavista, Images and type in Beaver Skinner. Thats me. I remember that guy taking that picture. It's a posed photo but I was in the process of skinning a beaver for the crowd. One photographer asked me to remove my brass wedding ring and I told him,"No! I bought this brass ring here at the fort, take your picture quick as I have a beaver to skin". He took it quick. You got to love them journalist! bb I hope the History Channel does justice for the boys. They really work hard and know their stuff. They are the greatest bunch of guys I've had the honor of being associated with. > Beaver boy which one are you and who else? > Thanks for the info > Mark > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TL&R Question Date: 28 Apr 2003 07:27:39 -0600 Answered off list. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Trade Gun? Date: 28 Apr 2003 11:22:59 -0700 For what it's worth The man who made the silent-movie documentary "Nanook of the North" also made one called "Grass" in about 1923-4, that records the annual migration of a nomadic tribe across a large mountain range, I think in Asia, before this event was lost to encroaching civilization. Highlights include swimming the tribe's animals across a raging river using large bladders for flotation. amd chopping a path across the snow-bound pass. The first part of the film records the filming expedition making the first motorized trek across 1000 miles of trackless desert, a feat in itself. Anyway, their native guide and hunter uses a long trade gun similar to the Belgian one described below. They filmed a kill (obviously staged for the camera) but he is described as a deadly shot despite the crudeness of the weapon. So this corroborates in a general way that these trade guns continued to be sold into undeveloped regions that needed an extremely low-tech weapon. This film was released on laser disc some years ago, it may now be available on more popular formats. Was the trade gun for sale a flinter or percussion? Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 11:18 PM Dear List, I was at the Gun Show today and one merchant had a trade gun of sorts for sale. Perhaps someone knows more about it. It seem to be about .20 ga with a 52" barrel. It had no markings other than two very small barrel proof marks, which I couldn't even make out. The barrel was octagon to round, very slender at the breech with one very weak wedding band. The stock was very slender, more so than any other trade gun I've ever seen. It also had no serpent side plate but a simple brass plate. Another gun trader there said it was a Belgian made trade gun for the African natives. He said these were made or at least sold up until the 1950's out of a catalog called Stokers. He didn't want much for it but I would have been afraid to load it too hot as the barrel was soon thin at the breech. Does anyone know more about this type of gun? bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Trade Gun & Nanook Date: 28 Apr 2003 13:14:03 -0600 (MDT) It was a flinter. The lock was in almost new condition. The gun as a whole was in fair condition but the furniture fit poorly etc. He was asking only $150 for it and was firm. It would have made an interesting piece to carry around the woods but I'm not sure I would have wanted to load it up good like I do with my North Star. There were 3 other guys interested in it and I figured they needed it more than me. I swore I would not buy another gun when I walked in there. I bought only 2 books and a first-aid kit. The one book is The Plainsmen of the Yellowstone by Mark Brown and is a very good read. The other book is a reprint of an old trapping book originally printed in 1881, Camp Life in the Woods and tricks of trapping by W.Hamilton Gibson isbn 1-58574-482-4 It has some very interesting and now illegal traps illustrated in it. One thing that instantly caught my eye was a drawing of a "Bird whistle" but it is clearly a diaphragm call! This is an 1881 book too! These diaphragm calls have been around for a long time evidently! I saw "Nanook of the North" a year ago on the Turner Classic channel and it is an excellent film! I thought Johnny Carson was always kidding when he'd mention Nanook of the North. If any get the chance to see "Nanook" watch it. It is a classic documentary! I still recall the scene were Nanook catches a artic fox in a trap and simply hog tied it until they built a snow igloo. It was the only way he could keep it from freezing solid before he could skin it out. Very interesting. bb > For what it's worth > The man who made the silent-movie documentary "Nanook of the North" also > made one called "Grass" in about 1923-4, that records the annual migration > of a nomadic tribe across a large mountain range, I think in Asia, before > this event was lost to encroaching civilization. Highlights include > swimming > the tribe's animals across a raging river using large bladders for > flotation. amd chopping a path across the snow-bound pass. The first part > of > the film records the filming expedition making the first motorized trek > across 1000 miles of trackless desert, a feat in itself. Anyway, their > native guide and hunter uses a long trade gun similar to the Belgian one > described below. They filmed a kill (obviously staged for the camera) but > he > is described as a deadly shot despite the crudeness of the weapon. So this > corroborates in a general way that these trade guns continued to be sold > into undeveloped regions that needed an extremely low-tech weapon. This > film ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html