From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed Date: 01 Oct 1998 07:22:56 -0400 the CVA hawkens lock is on page 84 and is part number 12090 model #1331-----the price is $65.00 and is of mediocre quality---as i stated in a earlier posting I thank you would be better off buying a siler kit for $49.95 and using the parts on a plate made of flat stock---the siler pan is a separate part and is screwed to the flat part of the lock---you can transfer the lock outline and tumbler location from your old lock plate using masking tape and a pencil. its a bit more work but you wind up with a much better quality and better sparking lock---have to also watch your sear location in reference to the triggers. If it was me and I wanted a flint I believe I would trade the gun you have off and put the money toward a flint that is complete---you are going to have about 1/3 the price of a new gun in parts and labor minimum and will probably never be satisfied with the quality and function . I normally can assemble and tune a siler flint kit in about an hr and a half and to cut out the plate and fit it will take about 2 or 4 hrs depending on your tools used (IE: cut plate by hand or on a metal cutting ban saw)---I have over the ages built a bunch of locator tools and junk to help assemble siler locks--this makes it so i can do everything on a common drill press---I mike the tumbler and drill the hole about .002 larger. you will also need a chizzle to clear some of the wood inside the lock inletting area--remove as little wood as possible to make guts of the lock fit---I never alter the lock mortise but make the metal fit the wood. this is done by beveling the lock plate. on page 169 of the mountain state catalog a 50 cal thompson center flintlock kit gun costs $260.35 and a completed gun costs $337.65. you have many avenues to go and consider but that is up to you as a individual---I know we get attached to our guns and sometimes don't mind whipping out the green frog skins to get them to the state we desire. My self I shoot several different guns I have a percussion and a flint but they are what i feel is best for me---and i don't mix the two. as you probably have gathered I am not really a CVA or thompson center fan---most of them are mediocre in quality ---don't get me wrong---I have seen several of them that shoot pretty good(NOTE i say pretty good)---I am from the old school--the quality of the barrel and the lock is what makes the gun shoot---a good barrel and lock on a pine board will give you a gun that will be consistent and dependable and will cut center all the time even if it is not pretty. Look at J.L. Harges and his flint gun---barrel is held in the channel with tang screw and black electrical tape---He won a many a medal and aggregate at the nationals with that ugly thing. If i remember right he has as much in the barrel on that piece of junk as most people spend on a CVA. and he has posted a hell of a lot of national records in scores---so pretty don't make a rifle gun cut center or be dependable--- BTW Mountain state 800 number is 1-800-445-1776 I appoligise for the dissertation and my running of the mouth---feel free to give me a call and I will try to help you out as much as possible being the BIAS person i am---It is up to you to make your decision using common sense and feelings. I know how we get attached to our guns---HOPE YOU GET TO WHERE YOU WANT TO BE WITH THE PROJECT--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 23:18:26 EDT NaugaMok@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 98-09-29 12:16:07 EDT, you write: > ><< I have a Traditions .50 cal Hawken that I want to convert to a >flinter. I > can find the touchhole lines, no problem, but I need a source to a >lock... >> > >Mountain State Muzzleloading Supplies >Rt. 2 Box 154-1 >Williamstown, WV 26187 > >Customer Service (304) 375-7842 > >Keep in mind the older Traditions shared the same locks as CVA, so the >CVA >Hawkin lock will work. Get some extra main springs -- these locks had >a >tendency to loose tension on the main spring. Otherwise, they were >pretty >trouble free, but I did break a sear once in the 5 years I used CVA's >& >Traditions. There's a sear engagement screw in the tumbler you may >want to >take out -- it has the maddning tendency to self adjust to where the >lock >won't hold cock even with the little spring that's supposed to prevent >this. >If you want to retain this screw, I'd advise a bit of locktite or >fingernail >polish to remedy the problem, but they do have flys & with set >triggers, the >screw is unnecessary. These locks tune up well & perform well for >their >price. Don't get me wrong -- they're NOT L&R's or Silers, but they do >the job >& do it pretty well. > >NM > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed Date: 01 Oct 1998 00:43:00 -0400 My thanks to everyone for all the info on the lock :) I got the lock ordered and will report on my successor lack there of... Traditions said it couldn't be done.... Addison Miller ----Original Message----- >In a message dated 98-09-29 12:16:07 EDT, you write: > ><< I have a Traditions .50 cal Hawken that I want to convert to a flinter. I > can find the touchhole lines, no problem, but I need a source to a lock... >> > >Mountain State Muzzleloading Supplies >Rt. 2 Box 154-1 >Williamstown, WV 26187 > >Customer Service (304) 375-7842 > >Keep in mind the older Traditions shared the same locks as CVA, so the CVA >Hawkin lock will work. Get some extra main springs -- these locks had a >tendency to loose tension on the main spring. Otherwise, they were pretty >trouble free, but I did break a sear once in the 5 years I used CVA's & >Traditions. There's a sear engagement screw in the tumbler you may want to >take out -- it has the maddning tendency to self adjust to where the lock >won't hold cock even with the little spring that's supposed to prevent this. >If you want to retain this screw, I'd advise a bit of locktite or fingernail >polish to remedy the problem, but they do have flys & with set triggers, the >screw is unnecessary. These locks tune up well & perform well for their >price. Don't get me wrong -- they're NOT L&R's or Silers, but they do the job >& do it pretty well. > >NM > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wefarmasmidgen" Date: 01 Oct 1998 13:43:36 -0500 wrote: >Subject: MtMan-List: Frontier > >Does anyone know if the History Ch. will be showing , Frontier: the >Legends of the old Northwest. The History Channel has a web site at http://www.historychannel.com/. You might try contacting them through there to see when (or if) they will repeat the program. Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin wefarm@pcii.net sally@bridgham.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: MtMan-List: Osborne Russell Date: 01 Oct 1998 17:07:56 +0000 I am writing a novel, historical fiction, entitled Across the Seasons. Osborne Russell and the Rendezvous of 1838 are central to the action. 1. Any passionate opinions on Russell, i.e. his character, why he never married or mentions women in his Journal, in what ways he differs from other mountain men? 2. Anyone well-versed in handwriting analysis? I would like to have the title page from Journal of a Trapper (www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/gif/ruslmanu.gif) analyzed for possible insights into Russell's personality. Appreciate it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "F.Vital" Subject: MtMan-List: Frontiers on the History Channel Date: 31 Dec 1998 19:00:00 +0000 According to the History Channel's web site, the Frontier series will be shown again during the morning classroom time (6:am till 7am) October 5,6,7,and 8. Set your VCRs -- Frank Vital Mechanical Engineers design weapon systems. Civil Engineers design targets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1830 Shooting Bag Photos Date: 01 Oct 1998 23:20:04 -0500 I have posted Hawk Pierce's photos of his original shooting bag and a few other items of interest at: <http://www.kramers.org/hawkn est/1830bags.htm> John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justin Hall Subject: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 02 Oct 1998 07:44:32 -0700 i am interested in buying a flintlock from jp gunstock inc. i am looking for info good or bad about there guns. thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: Web site addition Date: 01 Oct 1998 21:43:13 -0600 The latest addition to the "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade" web site is the text of TRAVELS IN THE INTERIOR OF AMERICA, IN THE YEARS 1809,1810, AND 1811 BY JOHN BRADBURY It may be found at: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/bradbury.html Bradbury was a naturalist who accompanied Wilson Price Hunt and his party from St. Louis up the Missouri to the Arickara Villages in 1811. Bradbury's Journal, along with Brackenridge's (also on-line), are the two important sources of that eventful year in the fur trade - where the Pacific Fur Co on their way to Astoria and the Missouri Fur Co. on their way to posts on the Upper Missouri, raced each other up river. Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry Landis" Subject: MtMan-List: fur on tanning. Date: 02 Oct 1998 16:37:15 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDEE22.E9FE5560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I shot my first bear this year and I cant afford to send it out to have a rug made.can anyone help me find a good source for instructions about fur on tanning? ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDEE22.E9FE5560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled Stationery
 I shot my first bear this year and I cant afford to send = it out to=20 have a rug made.can anyone help me find a good source for instructions = about fur=20 on tanning?
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDEE22.E9FE5560-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 02 Oct 1998 16:29:15 EDT Justin, I have been fondling JP products and shooting with people who own them at rendezvous for many years, and they produce a fine product. I happen to own/use a Tennessee Valley 'Southern Poor-Boy' and a CenterMark 'Grenadier' (tulle musket) and can tell you from personal experience that they also makes great guns. But I would never been disappointed had a bought a JP. humbly, GunShot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 02 Oct 1998 22:54:59 -0400 Justin Hall wrote: > > i am interested in buying a flintlock from jp gunstock inc. i am looking > for info good or bad about there guns. thanks They're "OK," but you should look at Deer Creek, Jim Chambers, and Jackie Brown's work first. Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1830 Shooting Bag Photos Date: 02 Oct 1998 22:23:53 -0500 Howdy John, Really enjoyed the pictures of Hawks rifle and bag. When I tried the other site though it said URL not found. Is the address correct? Thanks, YellowFeather > I have posted Hawk Pierce's photos of his original shooting bag and a few > other > items of interest at: > <http://www.kramers.org/hawkn > est/1830bags.htm> > > John... > > > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. > john kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken" Subject: MtMan-List: OOPS Date: 02 Oct 1998 22:27:47 -0500 Sorry John, just figured out it's the same site? YellowFeather ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fur on tanning. Date: 02 Oct 1998 23:01:26 +0000 Terry, I have a good book on tanning. It is called 'Wet -Scrape Braintanned Buckskin'. It is focused on deer skin, but hides is hides? There is section on hair on tanning. This is a fairly new book. The authors are Edholm and Wilder. The publisher is Paleotechnics PO Box 876 Boonville, Ca 95415 ISBN# 0-9654965-4-6 . I like this book, and perhaps it will have the answers for you. It is well written and readable. Good luck & congratulations on your bear hide. Hardtack #1424 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fur on tanning. Date: 03 Oct 1998 07:52:27 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BDEEA2.C3D264A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Van Dykes Taxidermy Supply, Woonsocket, S.D (Call Information for the #) = They have GREAT do-it-yourself kits. Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- From: Terry Landis To: Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com Date: Friday, October 02, 1998 11:20 PM Subject: MtMan-List: fur on tanning. =20 =20 I shot my first bear this year and I cant afford to send it out to = have a rug made.can anyone help me find a good source for instructions = about fur on tanning? ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BDEEA2.C3D264A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled Stationery
Van Dykes Taxidermy Supply, = Woonsocket,=20 S.D (Call Information for the #) They have GREAT do-it-yourself =20 kits.
Dennis
   "Abair ach beagan = is abair gu=20 math e"
          = DOUBLE=20 EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron=20 Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Terry Landis <landis1@gte.net>
To:=20 Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Friday, October 02, 1998 11:20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = fur on=20 tanning.

 I shot my first bear this = year and I=20 cant afford to send it out to have a rug made.can anyone help me = find a good=20 source for instructions about fur on=20 tanning?
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BDEEA2.C3D264A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne Russell Date: 02 Oct 1998 21:25:17 -0600 At 05:07 PM 10/1/98 +0000, you wrote: >I am writing a novel, historical fiction, entitled Across the Seasons. >Osborne Russell and the Rendezvous of 1838 are central to the action. > >1. Any passionate opinions on Russell, i.e. his character, why he never >married or mentions women in his Journal, in what ways he differs from >other mountain men? > I would guess that the reason Russell says little about women in his journal has something to do with the fact that during the period his journal covers, he probably encountered Indian women exclusively. In those days, many a white man would have been reluctant to admit in polite company that he had consorted with Indian women. When one compares the dates of his purchases of foofera with the timing of Indian visits at Fort Hall, it suggests that he was purchasing what vermillion and beads would buy. His purchases can give more insight into his character - see http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/RuslPaper.html Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fur on tanning. Date: 03 Oct 1998 08:19:07 -0600 We offer a home tanning kit based on over 20 years of experience, or or tannery can tan your bear for $29 a ft for a bear 4 to 5 ft. There are several taxidermy catalogs available to get rugging materials and books on how to mount the head and rug the body. Let us know if we can help you. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 03 Oct 1998 10:35:51 -0600 As Fred has stated look around. I personally shoot and have carried Jim Chambers, and Caywood guns in rifled and smooth bore for several years. For the money your talking about look at a lot of builders and for a few dollars more the builders above are excellent in quality. You may want to consider a weapon in the "white", you do the finish, I know that the two I have mentioned have guns in the "white", all that was needed was raise the grain once, light sand and stain the wood, fine steel wool the metal and finish to your liking. Buck Conner ---------- > From: Fred A. Miller > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks > Date: Friday, October 02, 1998 8:54 PM > > Justin Hall wrote: > > > > i am interested in buying a flintlock from jp gunstock inc. i am looking > > for info good or bad about there guns. thanks > > They're "OK," but you should look at Deer Creek, Jim Chambers, and > Jackie Brown's work first. > > Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 03 Oct 1998 15:32:44 -0400 what is your price range and i can give you a direction to go--there is many stockers out there and also people who put kits together--a lot depends on your skills and what you really want to procure--danny kaywood puts together a kit---extremely good quality but he only makes trade guns, english or french type guns---pecatonica furnishes kits but most require a bit of work and some skill to get to the finished product---don steith furnishes kits good quality but price not to my likeing---but you can depend on the quality---need to know what style and what you want from kit---pre assembled kit ---basic parts or what---post that and i will give you the best info that i have available---have been building and restoring for over 25 years so have seen a lot of junk and a lot of quality---remember the barrel and the lock is the heart of any weapon can put them on a pine board and have a exceptional shooter ---it depends on what someone wants and what he can affored---a basic set of parts ---you can call it a kit if you wish---will run you From 350 to 800 depending on the barrel and the wood---remember good wood will add and always keep the value of the gun up---but a good barrel will make the shooter and the quality of the lock will make the speed of ignition and the quality of dependibility---- DROP ME A NOTE OFF LINE AND I WILL POINT YOU TO A FEW DIFFERENT MAKERS THAT I KNOW PRODUCE QUALITY AND ARE DEPENDABLE----\ "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Fri, 02 Oct 1998 22:54:59 -0400 "Fred A. Miller" writes: >Justin Hall wrote: >> >> i am interested in buying a flintlock from jp gunstock inc. i am >looking >> for info good or bad about there guns. thanks > >They're "OK," but you should look at Deer Creek, Jim Chambers, and >Jackie Brown's work first. > >Fred > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne Russell Date: 03 Oct 1998 19:00:13 +0000 Thank you. I found your site(s) early in my research. The most exciting was to find the title page of Journal of a Trapper. As it scrolled up on my screen, I felt the hair stand up on my head! Compared to other journals, Russell doesn't go into any detail about attending Rendezvous. He merely tells when he showed up and when he departed. I have attended two Rendezvous reenactments on the Wind River and Popo Agie in Riverton. Hope to have my book finished in the next four months. Russell haunts me. I keep looking for him across the campfire. Regards, Laura Jean ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1830 Shooting Bag Photos Date: 03 Oct 1998 19:42:55 -0400 thanks for your posting of the prints--i sent you a couple more---one was the brass catch that was under discussion it should be large enough to see the detail---thanks again for posting the pictures---- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 23:20:04 -0500 John Kramer writes: > >I have posted Hawk Pierce's photos of his original shooting bag and a >few >other >items of interest at: ><http://www.kramers.org/hawkn >est/1830bags.htm> > >John... > > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >john kramer@kramerize.com > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OOPS Date: 03 Oct 1998 18:04:25 -0500 Ken and all, Sorry for the confusion; but there's a strange little "feature" in my email program (or compliments of my providers) that keeps doubling things up and splitting things apart and throwing in weird characters. I have not been= able to find the problem. If it wasn't so handy for its filtering functions I'd throw Eudora out. They keep promising an upgrade to their latest and= greatest flawed program. I'm really getting tired of paying software companies to be= a beta tester. There are several versions of MS mail, exchange and outlook that if I send= any formatted text to (underline, bold, etc.) they will only receive a blank message. I can receive formatted from just not send. I thought the idea= was to make these things work together. John... At 10:27 PM 10/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >Sorry John, >just figured out it's the same site? >YellowFeather >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Studs Date: 03 Oct 1998 19:08:36 -0500 I have posted two more photos of Hawk's bags and closures at: http://www.kramers.org/hawkne st/1830bags.htm <http://www.kramers.org/hawkn est/1830bags.htm> (I tried listing two different ways to see how it translates, still the same one address) Now I have a few questions as to the bag closure (stud): I would like to know more about the details of construction. Is the larger diameter section made in two parts? Is there a remnant of a washer between those parts, or is it a washer as the back part? How are the two parts joined, by peening? What is the metal? What is the scale/size? Is this the same stud laying on the flap of the bag in the first photo posted? Is it cast, turned or hand wrought? This is from one of your documented pre-1830 bags? John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Harrison Rogers Daybook Date: 03 Oct 1998 21:46:38 EDT Howdy All... In doing some research on Jedediah Smith, I was reading through Harrison Rogers daybook. Some of the entries in his ledger are a little puzzling, I hope some of you can expound. For example, on the right column of each entry are the letters "Dr." What does that mean? Some sort of debit mark? A typical entry looks like this: _____________________________ James Reed Dr To 1 lb tobacco 150 cts $1.50 _____________________________ what does the 150 cts mean? Also I find intriguing the entry for "tin strikers?" And there is an entry for sheep skin leggings and two other entries for sheepskins. I wonder if these are shepp as we know them, or the wild Bighorn sheep. Any thoughts? Todd D. Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest Date: 03 Oct 1998 19:50:24 -0400 barry tell me what you need photos of and i will try to help---I have a lot of original stuff and dont mind posting photoes of it---have a multitude of rifles horns, bags and about any kind of mountain man stuff that would be required---just have to get the pictures that you need---a friend had a digital camera and took the ones that we posted on kramers board---I truly wish i had taken pictures of all the guns that i have restored or repaired---the good ones i have tried to buy some i could afford and some i couldnt---being not a wealthy person makes it tough some times---especially when you find a treasure and cant afford to get it---I hit that delema all the time---best to you and yours--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:02:53 -0600 "Barry Conner" writes: >Hawk, > >May be able to use your photos for website mentioned earlier for >period >travel and equipage used. > >Buck > >---------- >> From: Michael Pierce >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & >Contest >> Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 7:22 PM >> >> there was a lot of palaber a while back about a ketch on a bag----i >have >> been digging and found one that can be posted if someone would like >to >> put it on their web site--I have it on a jpg and can send it to >anyone >> interested along with some photoes of a couple of original shooting >bags. >> the bags came from m.a. rupp and he was around 90 years old when he >gave >> them to me--they were his fathers and had been left in a trunk for >many >> years---he gave the bags to me back in 1960---manard was born in >1850 in >> origon territory---his father migrated there from st louis and is on >the >> tax rolls in 1825 and then no longer existed on the tax >listings---manard >> was 12 years old when his father died and left him with his >mother---he >> migrated to arkansas and became a resident of eureks springs ark in >1954. >> he died in 1958 at the age of 98. I also have his muzzle loading >rifle >> that belonged to his father he said---he gave that to me a couple of >> years after he gave me the shooting bags----one of the bags is made >of >> canvis and has his fathers name and a date of 1830 in the inside of >it . >> the leather bag doesnt have any markings and is very crude >made---the >> canvis bag has leather whelting and is also not in very good shape. >> there are no straps for either bag---I will send the pictures to >anyone >> interested or who wants to post them on their web site. >> >> I also promised to send some one a set of drawings for a double >> beavertale bag and have the copies along with a jpg photo of the >one in >> question and if they would drop me a note offline with their address >I >> will send out ASAP. I have prints on hand--- >> >> I hope this will start to motivate others in the great 1830 american > >> hunting bag search--- >> i know i cannot enter as i am suposto be a judge---some good prizes >for >> doing a little research. >> >> "Hawk" >> Michael Pierce >> 854 Glenfield Dr. >> Palm Harbor, florida 34684 >> 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com >> >> On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:49:36 -0500 Jim Colburn >> writes: >> >Washtahay- >> > OK folks. We've had a lot of palaver over one small >feature >> >of one bag >> >the last few days. So lets get down to brass tacks on this. I >want >> >to >> >locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having >been >> >in use >> >on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of >> >1830. >> >Here are the criteria the bag must meet: >> > "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, >> >Texas, or the >> >Missouri River trade. We should probably include bags in use in >the >> >St >> >Louis area and west within Missouri. While I would love to hear >about >> >the >> >bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target >area. >> > >> > "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as >> >having been in >> >use in the area defined as "Frontier". By objectively, I mean by >> >contemporary records or a chain of evidence. The assignment of >dates, >> >for >> >example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless >> >supported by >> >other available information (an example being the bag he shows on >pp >> >74-75 >> >of KRHP). If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply >> >trains >> >to Rendezvous, great! But the bag used by some famous mountain man >in >> >the >> >late 1850s isn't what we are looking for. >> > The bag must be published or accessible to the public. The > >> >folks on the >> >list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and >evaluate >> >it >> >for their own purposes. Be prepared to furnish supporting >> >documentation. >> > >> > Prize? Immortal fame isn't enough? How about a rum horn >and >> >horn cup? >> >Copied after the canteen shown on p 142 and the bottom cup on p >144 >> >of >> >"The Powder Horn and its Architecture". >> > Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of >the >> >woodwork. >> >Judge's decisions are final. Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys >willing >> >to >> >help me judge this? >> > >> >Let the hunt begin! >> >LongWalker c. du B. >> > >> > >> >> ___________________________________________________________________ >> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest Date: 04 Oct 1998 11:08:51 -0600 Hawk, Let me get together what I have and figure out what I'm lacking and will get back to you and John. Mr. Kramer and I have had some good discussions over the last year about the Museum of the Fur Trade and related problems. We have never met in person, but considered him a first class act, tell it the way it is, and a friend. You to Mr. Pierce seem to run along these lines, and we (member of this chat line) want to thank you and John for your efforts in providing great photo's and inportant views on the varied subjects. In time maybe some of the others with special knowledge will step forward and share some information. Too bad John and myself could not of gotten Charley Hanson involved before leaving for the other side, that would have been very interesting with his knowledge of the fur trade. I'll be in touch in a week or so. Have the tech support duty for company, and just got called. Later Buck ---------- > From: Michael Pierce > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest > Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 5:50 PM > > barry tell me what you need photos of and i will try to help---I have a > lot of original stuff and dont mind posting photoes of it---have a > multitude of rifles horns, bags and about any kind of mountain man stuff > that would be required---just have to get the pictures that you need---a > friend had a digital camera and took the ones that we posted on kramers > board---I truly wish i had taken pictures of all the guns that i have > restored or repaired---the good ones i have tried to buy some i could > afford and some i couldnt---being not a wealthy person makes it tough > some times---especially when you find a treasure and cant afford to get > it---I hit that delema all the time---best to you and yours--- > > YMHOSANT > =+= > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com > > On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:02:53 -0600 "Barry Conner" > writes: > >Hawk, > > > >May be able to use your photos for website mentioned earlier for > >period > >travel and equipage used. > > > >Buck > > > >---------- > >> From: Michael Pierce > >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & > >Contest > >> Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 7:22 PM > >> > >> there was a lot of palaber a while back about a ketch on a bag----i > >have > >> been digging and found one that can be posted if someone would like > >to > >> put it on their web site--I have it on a jpg and can send it to > >anyone > >> interested along with some photoes of a couple of original shooting > >bags. > >> the bags came from m.a. rupp and he was around 90 years old when he > >gave > >> them to me--they were his fathers and had been left in a trunk for > >many > >> years---he gave the bags to me back in 1960---manard was born in > >1850 in > >> origon territory---his father migrated there from st louis and is on > >the > >> tax rolls in 1825 and then no longer existed on the tax > >listings---manard > >> was 12 years old when his father died and left him with his > >mother---he > >> migrated to arkansas and became a resident of eureks springs ark in > >1954. > >> he died in 1958 at the age of 98. I also have his muzzle loading > >rifle > >> that belonged to his father he said---he gave that to me a couple of > >> years after he gave me the shooting bags----one of the bags is made > >of > >> canvis and has his fathers name and a date of 1830 in the inside of > >it . > >> the leather bag doesnt have any markings and is very crude > >made---the > >> canvis bag has leather whelting and is also not in very good shape. > >> there are no straps for either bag---I will send the pictures to > >anyone > >> interested or who wants to post them on their web site. > >> > >> I also promised to send some one a set of drawings for a double > >> beavertale bag and have the copies along with a jpg photo of the > >one in > >> question and if they would drop me a note offline with their address > >I > >> will send out ASAP. I have prints on hand--- > >> > >> I hope this will start to motivate others in the great 1830 american > > > >> hunting bag search--- > >> i know i cannot enter as i am suposto be a judge---some good prizes > >for > >> doing a little research. > >> > >> "Hawk" > >> Michael Pierce > >> 854 Glenfield Dr. > >> Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > >> 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com > >> > >> On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:49:36 -0500 Jim Colburn > >> writes: > >> >Washtahay- > >> > OK folks. We've had a lot of palaver over one small > >feature > >> >of one bag > >> >the last few days. So lets get down to brass tacks on this. I > >want > >> >to > >> >locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having > >been > >> >in use > >> >on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of > >> >1830. > >> >Here are the criteria the bag must meet: > >> > "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, > >> >Texas, or the > >> >Missouri River trade. We should probably include bags in use in > >the > >> >St > >> >Louis area and west within Missouri. While I would love to hear > >about > >> >the > >> >bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target > >area. > >> > > >> > "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as > >> >having been in > >> >use in the area defined as "Frontier". By objectively, I mean by > >> >contemporary records or a chain of evidence. The assignment of > >dates, > >> >for > >> >example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless > >> >supported by > >> >other available information (an example being the bag he shows on > >pp > >> >74-75 > >> >of KRHP). If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply > >> >trains > >> >to Rendezvous, great! But the bag used by some famous mountain man > >in > >> >the > >> >late 1850s isn't what we are looking for. > >> > The bag must be published or accessible to the public. The > > > >> >folks on the > >> >list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and > >evaluate > >> >it > >> >for their own purposes. Be prepared to furnish supporting > >> >documentation. > >> > > >> > Prize? Immortal fame isn't enough? How about a rum horn > >and > >> >horn cup? > >> >Copied after the canteen shown on p 142 and the bottom cup on p > >144 > >> >of > >> >"The Powder Horn and its Architecture". > >> > Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of > >the > >> >woodwork. > >> >Judge's decisions are final. Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys > >willing > >> >to > >> >help me judge this? > >> > > >> >Let the hunt begin! > >> >LongWalker c. du B. > >> > > >> > > >> > >> ___________________________________________________________________ > >> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > >> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > >> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wayne Mumford Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1830 Shooting Bag Photos Date: 03 Oct 1998 21:12:19 -0600 I thought some of you might be interested in this gun. It's an original M.1815 Harpers Ferry I recently got some pictures of. After handling it while taking the photographs I really fell in love with it. I shot a replica a couple years ago but it didn't "feel" like this one. Would like to own a really good replica some day. http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/test/images/hferry.jpg -- Frontier Filmworks Still Photography by Wayne Mumford Locations-Prints-Stock Images The Lewis & Clark Trail http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas W. Roberts" Subject: MtMan-List: Rondezvous Date: 04 Oct 1998 18:03:58 -0700 Just stumbled across some spare time off. Anyone know of a rondezvous in the southeastern US between 10/8 and 10/16? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: Web Site Addition Date: 04 Oct 1998 15:12:38 -0600 The latest addition to the "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade" web site is the text of John C. Luttig's "Journal of a fur-trading expedition on the Upper Missouri, 1812-1813". It may be found at: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/Luttig/index.html John Luttig ascended the Missouri River in 1812 as the clerk of a party of the Missouri Fur Company, led by Manuel Lisa. This electronic transcription and annotation of the journal was contributed by James Kyle, Missouri Coalition of Historical Trekkers. enjoy! -Dean PS. first snow today here in the Shining Mountains. 2-3 inches on the ground, and more falling fast. Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rondezvous Date: 04 Oct 1998 22:03:17 -0700 Don't know anything about the southeast, but there is a good rdv in northcentral Texas (30 miles south of Ft Worth) next weekend. Contact me if interested.. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net -----Original Message----- >Just stumbled across some spare time off. Anyone know of a rondezvous >in the southeastern US between 10/8 and 10/16? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rondezvous Date: 05 Oct 1998 02:02:49 EDT could you be a little more specific about the areas? feel free to contact me direct at rr1la@aol.com, but in the meantime, from Smoke & Fire News..... 10/10-10/11 A Day to Remember, North Augusta, SC 10/17-10/18 Daniel Smith Days, Henderson, TN 10/16-10/18 Beaver Swamp 9th Annual RDV, Lexington, GA 10/16-10/18 Shinin' Times RDV, Dahlonega, GA also events in Alabama, Virginia, WVirginia yhs, GunShot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Harrison Rogers Daybook Date: 05 Oct 1998 16:33:00 -0600 Please pardon me if this question has already been answered; I subscribe to the digest version of the list, so I get my mail a bit later than most folks. Todd Glover wrote: >> In doing some research on Jedediah Smith, I was reading through Harrison Rogers daybook. Some of the entries in his ledger are a little puzzling, I hope some of you can expound. For example, on the right column of each entry are the letters "Dr." What does that mean? Some sort of debit mark?<< "Dr." was the usual abbreviation for the word "debit". (For an earlier example of this, see Henry Duckworth's edition of a 1786 North West Company account book, in _The English River Book_. Credits were written below the heading "Contra", much as accountants use that term today.) I would interpret the example you gave as stating that James Reed's account was debited 150 cents, or $1.50, for his purchase of a pound of tobacco. The fact that the amount is noted twice might be because the Rogers was noting the unit price, and then extending it; in other words, if Reed had bought 2 lbs of tobacco, it might have read 2 lbs tobacco, 150 cts [per lb.], $3.00. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Harrison Rogers Daybook "do" mark Date: 05 Oct 1998 16:18:40 -0700 The "Do" mark was shorthand for "ditto" which meant the same as now, ie, repeat the above entry. For instance, a common journal entry might be 3 yards red cloth, $3 2 yards do, $2 In your case, the "Dr" (assuming this is actually "do") should refer to the entry above the one you copied. See if this makes sense. I would assume that 150 cts means 150 cents -- it matches the $1.50 entered on the right. As far as sheepskins goes, I would defer to anyone more familiar with the game and livestock of that area. YMOS Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 6:47 PM Howdy All... In doing some research on Jedediah Smith, I was reading through Harrison Rogers daybook. Some of the entries in his ledger are a little puzzling, I hope some of you can expound. For example, on the right column of each entry are the letters "Dr." What does that mean? Some sort of debit mark? A typical entry looks like this: _____________________________ James Reed Dr To 1 lb tobacco 150 cts $1.50 _____________________________ what does the 150 cts mean? Also I find intriguing the entry for "tin strikers?" And there is an entry for sheep skin leggings and two other entries for sheepskins. I wonder if these are shepp as we know them, or the wild Bighorn sheep. Any thoughts? Todd D. Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jayward@juno.com (Joseph W Ward) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #151 Date: 05 Oct 1998 21:38:29 -0400 Hello the list, This might not be directly on point of the list, but does anybody know a source of the heavy kind of canvas that military leggings are made of? It seems to me it's about twice as heavy as new blue jeans. It needs to be stiff so the leggings won't sag. I'd like to buy a few yards and make a few pair. Thanks. -Joe Ward Louisville ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Harrison Rogers Daybook "Dr" mark Date: 05 Oct 1998 19:12:49 -0700 If the mark in question is clearly "Dr" as described by Angela, please disregard my theories about it maybe being a "do" mark as noted below. Pat Quilter. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:19 PM The "Do" mark was shorthand for "ditto" which meant the same as now, ie, repeat the above entry. For instance, a common journal entry might be 3 yards red cloth, $3 2 yards do, $2 In your case, the "Dr" (assuming this is actually "do") should refer to the entry above the one you copied. See if this makes sense. I would assume that 150 cts means 150 cents -- it matches the $1.50 entered on the right. As far as sheepskins goes, I would defer to anyone more familiar with the game and livestock of that area. YMOS Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, October 03, 1998 6:47 PM Howdy All... In doing some research on Jedediah Smith, I was reading through Harrison Rogers daybook. Some of the entries in his ledger are a little puzzling, I hope some of you can expound. For example, on the right column of each entry are the letters "Dr." What does that mean? Some sort of debit mark? A typical entry looks like this: _____________________________ James Reed Dr To 1 lb tobacco 150 cts $1.50 _____________________________ what does the 150 cts mean? Also I find intriguing the entry for "tin strikers?" And there is an entry for sheep skin leggings and two other entries for sheepskins. I wonder if these are shepp as we know them, or the wild Bighorn sheep. Any thoughts? Todd D. Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Harrison Rogers Daybook Date: 05 Oct 1998 22:16:22 EDT Todd, You right on about the meaning of "dr." It is shorthand for "debit" and indicates the amount charged to the account. The 150 cts. is 150 "cents" so the debit shows as $1.50. The price following the item is most often the price per unit. As far as "Tin" strikers, intriguing is a good word. I assume Rogers refers to a fire striker although the "tin" part makes little sense. Allen chronister and Clay Landry are both far more knowledgable than I regarding inventories. Hopefully one of them will see this and weight in. If we don't hear from them soon, I'll drop them an e-mail and get back to the list. Since this ledger is written as Smith's party traveled the arid, desert regions to the southwest of Salt Lake, the sheep is probably not what we think of as domestic sheep. It probably is the bighorn sheep. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clay Landry Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Harrison Rogers Daybook Date: 05 Oct 1998 20:45:59 -0600 (MDT) At 09:46 PM 10/3/98 EDT, you wrote: >Howdy All... > > In doing some research on Jedediah Smith, I was reading through Harrison >Rogers daybook. Some of the entries in his ledger are a little puzzling, I >hope some of you can expound. For example, on the right column of each entry >are the letters "Dr." What does that mean? Some sort of debit mark? > >A typical entry looks like this: > >_____________________________ >James Reed Dr >To 1 lb tobacco 150 cts $1.50 >_____________________________ > >what does the 150 cts mean? > >Also I find intriguing the entry for "tin strikers?" And there is an entry for >sheep skin leggings and two other entries for sheepskins. I wonder if these >are shepp as we know them, or the wild Bighorn sheep. Any thoughts? > > >Todd D. Glover > > >----------------------------- Todd The ledger and day book were the nuts and bolts of the fur trade- remember that those guys did not use money they used a ledger book which contained debits and credits. When a trapper bought an item-say powder- form the company stores the clerk would write his name in the "daybook" for the date of the transaction. The entry would look like this; January 5 th, 1836 John Gray Dr To 2# Powder @ $1.5 .........$3.00 Then when he brought in some fur he received a credit in the Daybook; January 10 th, 1936 John Gray Cr By 3# Beaver @ $3.00..........$9.00 The Daybook was a listing of all the transactions for each day for all the men, while the ledger was organized with a page for each man which summarized all the transactions for that individual. A daybook can tell the researcher a lot about what was going on on a particular day for example the Fort Hall daybook for on day in January shows just about all the men being debited for Rum and brown sugar and about half of the men debited for playing cards. On that cold winter day on those boys were going to huddle up drink some spirits and play cards. By the way you could pay your gaming debits by telling the clerk to debit your account and credit you owed!!! Adios Clay Clay Landry P.O. Box 1033 Columbus MT 59019 -------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Harrison Rogers Daybook "do" mark Date: 05 Oct 1998 20:07:24 -0700 (PDT) On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Pat Quilter wrote: > I would assume that 150 cts means 150 cents -- it matches the $1.50 entered > on the right. Could "cts" possibly be shorthand for "carrot" of tobacco? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buckskin Coats Date: 05 Oct 1998 23:28:23 EDT Dear Mr Carl Thank you for contacting me. I would like to make a hunting coat, appropriate for the eastern region of this country. Any references , pattern sources etc would be most helpful ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #151 Date: 05 Oct 1998 22:22:41 -0500 What period are you referring to? YMDS, YellowFeather ---------- > From: Joseph W Ward > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Cc: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #151 > Date: Monday, October 05, 1998 8:38 PM > > Hello the list, > > This might not be directly on point of the list, but does anybody > know a source of the heavy kind of canvas that military leggings are made > of? It seems to me it's about twice as heavy as new blue jeans. It needs > to be stiff so the leggings won't sag. I'd like to buy a few yards and > make a few pair. Thanks. > -Joe Ward > Louisville > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed Date: 06 Oct 1998 12:28:10 -0400 Thanks for all the advise guys! I finally got ahold of Thunder Ridge and got the lock for the Traditions and installed it. Fits great!! Now I justneedthe touch hole liner... Thanks again Addison Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Roger's Daybook Date: 06 Oct 1998 12:53:15 EDT Thanks to Jim, Pat, and Clay for the info on daybook entries. It makes more sense now. That "tin striker" still puzzles me. Keep wondering if he was refering to a tin striker box? But if so, why wouldn't he have said as much? Hmmmm I agree, the sheep must have been Bighorn. Interesting that they had leegings on hand. Must have purchased them at Rendezvous from the Indians along with other tanned sheep skins. You're right Clay, daybooks make for some facinating research. Well I remember your presentation at the symposium '97. How's the book coming? Thanks all Todd D. Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jody Carlson" Subject: MtMan-List: Christian Royal Rangers group for boys? Date: 07 Oct 1998 20:05:48 -0500 Hello the List; I was wondering if any of you could give me some information on a group for kids which I believe was called the Royal Rangers. If I remember correctly, it was a group somewhat like the Boy Scouts which combined living history with our kind of woodslore for boys in their teenage years. It was also Christian based which, is a plus, and appeals to me more than the baloney I've been hearing about the BSA the last few years. I have been searching the net, but to no avail. Could somebody out there help me out? My kids are a little young at the moment, but in a few years.... In advance I thank you, Scott sjsdm@conpoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry Landis" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Roger's Daybook Date: 06 Oct 1998 16:07:38 -0700 possibly a tinder striker? my 2 cents worth. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of TetonTod@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 9:53 AM Thanks to Jim, Pat, and Clay for the info on daybook entries. It makes more sense now. That "tin striker" still puzzles me. Keep wondering if he was refering to a tin striker box? But if so, why wouldn't he have said as much? Hmmmm I agree, the sheep must have been Bighorn. Interesting that they had leegings on hand. Must have purchased them at Rendezvous from the Indians along with other tanned sheep skins. You're right Clay, daybooks make for some facinating research. Well I remember your presentation at the symposium '97. How's the book coming? Thanks all Todd D. Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo hides Date: 06 Oct 1998 17:30:31 -0600 I have just finished tanning the rest of my buffalo from last year. WE have several hides that have rub marks on the hips and shoulders. Good winter robes but not perfect. Most are cows, therefore a lot lighter than the bull hides. Ave sq ft is 40 to 45. I want to move them, so......................for $300 to $400, I will select the poorer ones for $300 and the better ones for $400. Every hide is guarenteed. If you don't like it, just return it within 15 days for your money back. All hides have a lifetime cleaning and reconditioning. Let me know if anyone is interested. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Christian Royal Rangers group for boys? Date: 07 Oct 1998 00:15:52 -0400 Jody Carlson wrote: > > Hello the List; > > I was wondering if any of you could give me some information on a group for > kids which I believe was called the Royal Rangers. If I remember > correctly, it was a group somewhat like the Boy Scouts which combined > living history with our kind of woodslore for boys in their teenage years. > It was also Christian based which, is a plus, and appeals to me more than > the baloney I've been hearing about the BSA the last few years. > > I have been searching the net, but to no avail. Could somebody out there > help me out? My kids are a little young at the moment, but in a few > years.... Scott, go to their web site at: http://www.clcchurch.org/rrpage.html. GOOD group, by the way!! Best, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: MtMan-List: pipestone Date: 22 Sep 1998 03:33:30 -0500 I was recently given a piece of pipestone for a pipe bowl. I've read that the material was often shaped by scraping with knife blades. I can't make a dent in this stuff with a horseshoe rasp much less a knife. What's the trick? Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy MacRaith@SWBell.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Cannons amongst John Works Snake Expedition 31-32 Date: 06 Oct 1998 22:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Good Day Came across a reference about a cannon bursting during a skirmish between John Work's Snake expedition and a band from the Blackfeet tribe. Date is about Jan 30 1932. Checked Dean's site, but unfortunately, the journal from that time frame doesn't mention this. Does anyone know what kind of cannon he had? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pipestone Date: 07 Oct 1998 01:32:24 EDT Bill, Sounds like you got hold of 'ironstone' LOL. you need Catlinite, which is usually pink to orange and sometimes mottled with white. Also known as the indurated variety of Red Silicious Clay, it is USUALLY workable with the most primitive of tools. As with all minerals, sometimes there are aborations in hardness, graining, etc. yhs, GunShot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pipestone Date: 07 Oct 1998 03:16:12 -0500 On 1998-09-22 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-SBIS-NC404 (Win95; U) >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Status: >I was recently given a piece of pipestone for a pipe bowl. I've >read that the material was often shaped by scraping with knife >blades. I can't make a dent in this stuff with a horseshoe rasp >much less a knife. What's the trick? >Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy >MacRaith@SWBell.net the pipestone I've carved was 3-4 days out of the ground and carved like soapstone when I started it like granite a year later when I finished it. I think you got some that has been out of the groung to long,the only things I've found that work it then are silicon carbide and diamond tools. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698 Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerrys" Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trappers Date: 07 Oct 1998 04:23:49 PDT Where can I purchase commercial brain tanned deer and or elk hides at = a reasonable price ? also I am still looking for the definition of the term " pinchon ",the = word was used in relation with fox in an artical by Gary Lantz.iin the = outdoor oklahoma march/april 1997 " His source was Pioneer days in the early southwest by Grant Forman = . Forman took the term from the records of the CHOUTEAUS shipping furs = and hides from eastern Oklahoma in the late 17 ,earley 1800s........thank= s Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 07 Oct 1998 10:16:02 -0600 (CST) >Henry, >Jon told me to write you on how to finish a gourd to carry water. >Do you need to seal the inside someway. >I was thinking of using beeswax and brewers pitch after I clean them out. >What do you use, or your thoughts on this matter? >Thanks for you help. > >"Pockets" >A.K.A. >Matt Mitchell >Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders >Moscow, Idaho >travel@turbonet.com > > "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---" > General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864 Matt, "Uncle John" Sedgwick forgot that a good sized general makes a good sized target for rebel snipers. I'm going to pass this on to the list in case anyone else wants to get into gourds. I have a pretty decent crop on the vine now. With our changes in weather lately, being much cooler than normal in the evenings, they should be ready to harvest by November. It's best to wait till after the first frost. I don't pick them till the stems are completely dry. We're expecting an early winter. In answer to your question, gourds should be lined with some kind of wax, not just as a water seal, but to improve taste. I usually use a craft wax that looks like sculptor's wax that I get at Hobby Lobby, but I suppose any wax will do. Most craft stores carry what I use. Bee's wax might be more flexible with less potential for cracking in winter. As for technique, I pour hot wax into the gourd after seeds and as much inner skin, etc. as possible have been removed. Don't worry about hard to reach spots because a couple to three coats of wax will cover what's left behind. Also, there is no need to pre-heat the gourd, because the hot wax will do that on the first pouring, and pre-heating might cause too much of the wax to settle, instead of sticking on the wall. The hot wax will automatically regulate the temperature of the gourd. Pour the wax into the gourd without letting it overflow. I'd leave the upper chamber empty (if using bottle/birdhouse gourds) to avoid overspilling. Better to use gloves because soon the gourd will get quite warm. They also protect you if wax spills on your hands. I also use a photographic tray to avoid spilling on my counter top. Newspaper is fine, but you want to catch spilled wax to use it again. After filling, pour out the wax back into the pot to be used again. Wax can be recycled as long as it's clean. *IMPORTANT-Pour while rotating the gourd so that all sides of the area near the opening are coated.* Wait about a minute or so, then pour more wax into the gourd. Repeat the procedure as many times as you need to. The more pourings, the stronger gourd you end up with. Be careful not to reduce the capacity of the gourd. 3-5 pourings would be optimum. As the gourd is used, the wax on the opening will wear away, especially if you use a cork. I wouldn't worry about that unless it maked your water taste really bad. If that happens and you want to fix it, let the gourd air dry for a few days. (never reheat a waxed gourd unless you want to start the coating procedure all over again.) Dip the mouth into a pot of hot wax momentarily and set aside for a minute. Two dippings should give you a satisfactory coating on the gourd mouth. You may have to re-fit a new cork. And speaking of corks. They do tend to break, especially after repeated opening and closing. Always check your corks and replace fatigued, worn, and cracked ones. If your opening is sized for them, wine bottle corks are great because they are very high quality. I try to make my gourd openings to fit wine bottle corks. In spite of their quality, they will also crack eventually. Corks tend to fray on the wet edges because that deterioriates the material. That is a good sign to start finding a replacement. You can rotate a cork and use the other end, but that is only a short term solution. Better to replace it sooner than later. There's nothing so disconcerting as half a cork floating inside your perfectly made gourd. One more thing, then I'll shut up. Never store an empty gourd with the cork on. Corks need to dry so that mold and bacteria don't break it down. It's organic, which makes it highly suceptible to decay in a moist environment. Allow them to air dry after events. Any questions?? Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buckskin Coats Date: 07 Oct 1998 12:44:13 -0600 (CST) John, Eagle's View and Green River Forge both have frock patterns that can be adapted for leather. In fact, the Eagle's View pattern (#692 in Townsend's catalog 18) for the rifleman's frock has specific instructions for making it from leather or buckskin. Let me know how yours comes out. I'm planning to do the same thing. I need additional leather for the sleeves. Cheers, HBC >Ho the List > >I am currently researching buckskin hunting frocks and would like to make >myself one. I am intersted in making an indian style buckskin coat. > >I have "The Frontier Rifleman" by Richard B. La Crosse, Jr. and the Mountain >Man Sketchbooks by Hanson. I cannot get the patterns showing the coats >attributed the Indians to work. I make very small models > >Has anyone made such a coat or hunting shirt ? What type of research did you >use? Does any one know where I can get any useful patterns etc. > >Thank you all very much for your time >Watch your topknot >John Seminerio ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trappers Date: 07 Oct 1998 12:26:26 -0700 Jerry, Try Mike Rider at:208-265-4862, 290 Gold Creek Rd., Sandpoint ID.83864. He tans deer and sells commercially. His hides are second to none! I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Jerrys wrote: > Where can I purchase commercial brain tanned deer and or elk hides at a reasonable price ? > also I am still looking for the definition of the term " pinchon ",the word was used in relation with fox in an artical by Gary Lantz.iin the outdoor oklahoma march/april 1997 " > His source was Pioneer days in the early southwest by Grant Forman . Forman took the term from the records of the CHOUTEAUS shipping furs and hides from eastern Oklahoma in the late 17 ,earley 1800s........thanks Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pipestone Date: 07 Oct 1998 10:04:15 EDT Bill, All the pipestone (Catlinite) I've ever worked was fairly soft and easily worked with a knife. Once I was told to store the stone in water until ready to work. I'm not sure if this was to keep it from cracking or to keep it soft enought to work. However, even after a number of years my pipebowls are still easily carved. Are you sure it's pipestone and not some kind of soapstone? Todd D. Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pipestone Date: 07 Oct 1998 09:35:32 -0500 Washtahay- At 03:16 AM 10/7/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I was recently given a piece of pipestone for a pipe bowl. I've > >read that the material was often shaped by scraping with knife > >blades. I can't make a dent in this stuff with a horseshoe rasp > >much less a knife. What's the trick? > >Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy > >MacRaith@SWBell.net >the pipestone I've carved was 3-4 days out of the ground and carved like >soapstone when I started it like granite a year later when I finished it. >I think you got some that has been out of the groung to long,the only things >I've found that work it then are silicon carbide and diamond tools. When all else fails, soak it in water for a while-maybe as much as a year. It works, and its traditional (or at least is what I was taught when I did an apprenticeship of sorts in pipemaking). I'd suggest keeping it from freezing, for fear of expansion cracks-but I don't know if this is necessary. LongWalker c. du B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 07 Oct 1998 16:44:13 -0400 Hi Henry, I have been making gourd canteens a bit lately. I have been sealing the inside with paraffin as you describe. My question is, I still get a gourdy taste to the water. Is there anyway to eliminate this? It's not a big problem but if there is some trick I am missing I'd like to know. Also, I have been varnishing the outside of the gourd. I sew a piece of wet rawhide around the neck, leaving a loop and let it dry to facilitate carrying. Kirk Mill As for technique, I pour hot wax into the gourd after seeds and as much inner skin, etc. as possible have been removed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colleen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 07 Oct 1998 16:29:20 -0500 I have used a large water gourd for 2 years now and all that I have done with it is once the water has an odd taste to it, I'll clean the gourd really well with baking soda and water. Swirling it around and rinsing really well until you get a good taste. I have never waxed my large water gourd. My gourd canteen is waxed and I really don't care for the waxing. Colleen (Many Ducks) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pipestone Date: 07 Oct 1998 20:46:34 -0700 Maybe you can soak it in water, might soften it up a bit, might ruin it, might do nothin. Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant Sega ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Christian Royal Rangers group for boys? Date: 07 Oct 1998 23:49:21 EDT Scott, Royal Rangers is a youth program affiliated with the Assembly of God church. I'm sure if you check with your local Assembly, especially if it's of any size, they'll supply you with all kinds of infor and welcome you if you've a mind to volunteer. Jim Hardee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Roger's Daybook Date: 07 Oct 1998 23:49:22 EDT Todd, Another thing I noticed about the tin striker entry in Roger's daybook is that it is a "credit" entry. Note that it is "by" not "to" in the entry. That means Silas Gobel had $3.00 put back into his account. Perhaps he turned in a tin striker for some reason. But the next entry is "to" Jedediah Smith, himself, assuming the cost for Gobel of the tin striker. So, it looks as though Gobel gave his company striker to his boss. Second point is that $3.00 seems like a lot for a fire steel. It's the only "striker" recorded in the daybook, but perhaps we're wrong in thinking it is some sort of a fire steel. Lewis Garrard, in Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail, described the use of a tin, silver or gold tube, about three inches long, containing a roll of cotton cloth which furnished tinder for a flint and steel. (Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Vol. 18, No. 3, p. 2) Any thoughts on that? Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Wintering Grounds Date: 07 Oct 1998 23:55:55 EDT I want to compile a comprehensive list of sites where trapping parties wintered and I want your help. Dig out your books and send me locations, dates, brigade leaders, etc. But don't send them unless you can include a reference book, author and page number. Don't say "I think so and so spent the winter of 27-28 in Pierre's Hole." I want facts and resources. Any one want to play? When I get the information compiled, I'll send it back to anyone who wants it. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 08 Oct 1998 01:36:17 EDT In a message dated 98-10-02 10:37:46 EDT, you write: << i am interested in buying a flintlock from jp gunstock inc. i am looking for info good or bad about there guns. thanks >> JP builds a pretty good looking rifle, trade gun, or pistol. They have a pretty extensive line they reproduce. They use L&R locks & triggers & good barrels. Fit & finish is good. HOWEVER ---- I realy hate to bad rap the "local builders" out here, BUT -- They take shortcuts that detract from authenticity like screwing the ram rod thimbles to the bottom of the barrel with allen screws. IF you would like that changed after you have the rifle it's too bad -- they will not do it for a reasonable price. Their customer service SUCKS!!!! You CAN order your ram rod pipes pinned & if you have a good local gunsmith for repairs, then you might look into their products, but once you have one of their products in your hot little hands it's YOURS & they seem to want nothing more to do with it. It's realy too bad they've taken this attitude in the last few years -- they're realy pretty nice guys to know IF you catch them away from the business. If you want a good rifle from a Las Vegas NV builder, check into Lodding & McClenehan. Their "production" rifles are Hawkins -- both half & full stock. These rifles are all hand built on any kind of wood you select. They machine cut their own stocks on site for the Hawkins & the English pistol they offer. Pull lengh can be specified as well as a great number of other options. PLUS they'll custom build anything you want. The normal delivery times on their "production type" offerings are 6 - 8 weeks, customs depend on shop load. They're building a custom for me (a copy of Fredric Sell's Pegasus rifle) that still has 2 other custom orders ahead of it -- I started at 4 down 4 months ago. They stand behind their work & are concerned with customer satisfaction. Steve Lodding also makes some outstanding powder horns. Their work has been shown at Mansker Station the last 2 years. If you're looking for authenticity, they've done extensive research in the arts of gun building. We also have 3 other builders in the area who do high quality work, but they're part time builders & are usualy snowed under. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 08 Oct 1998 10:13:11 -0600 (CST) >Hi Henry, I have been making gourd canteens a bit lately. I have been >sealing the inside with paraffin as you describe. My question is, I still >get a gourdy taste to the water. Is there anyway to eliminate this? It's not >a big problem but if there is some trick I am missing I'd like to know. No trick. The water might taste a bit stale especially if it sat for several hours, and a very slight hint of gourd taste might remain, but that should not overpower the taste of the water itself. Just like water from a tin cup can have a slight metallic taste. I test my waxed gourds by leaving them filled over night and drinking the water the next day. I never had a batch of water that tasted too much like the gourd. Colleen (Many Ducks) says she uses baking soda to kill the odor. I might try that as an intermediate step after cleaning and before waxing. >Also, I have been varnishing the outside of the gourd. I sew a piece of wet >rawhide around the neck, leaving a loop and let it dry to facilitate >carrying. I coat the outside with a handful of soft, warm wax. I too make rawhide handles for carrying. These can get realy creative. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 08 Oct 1998 10:56:02 -0700 I can testify to the excellent production equipment, quality, and designs at Steve Lodding's shop. I've visited a couple of times and he would be high on my list for a gun in the style of the better American or London shops. He and his partner are fascinated by details such as how to shape pans so the rainwater doesn't wet your priming. Pat Quilter. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 10:36 PM In a message dated 98-10-02 10:37:46 EDT, you write: << i am interested in buying a flintlock from jp gunstock inc. i am looking for info good or bad about there guns. thanks >> JP builds a pretty good looking rifle, trade gun, or pistol. They have a pretty extensive line they reproduce. They use L&R locks & triggers & good barrels. Fit & finish is good. HOWEVER ---- I realy hate to bad rap the "local builders" out here, BUT -- They take shortcuts that detract from authenticity like screwing the ram rod thimbles to the bottom of the barrel with allen screws. IF you would like that changed after you have the rifle it's too bad -- they will not do it for a reasonable price. Their customer service SUCKS!!!! You CAN order your ram rod pipes pinned & if you have a good local gunsmith for repairs, then you might look into their products, but once you have one of their products in your hot little hands it's YOURS & they seem to want nothing more to do with it. It's realy too bad they've taken this attitude in the last few years -- they're realy pretty nice guys to know IF you catch them away from the business. If you want a good rifle from a Las Vegas NV builder, check into Lodding & McClenehan. Their "production" rifles are Hawkins -- both half & full stock. These rifles are all hand built on any kind of wood you select. They machine cut their own stocks on site for the Hawkins & the English pistol they offer. Pull lengh can be specified as well as a great number of other options. PLUS they'll custom build anything you want. The normal delivery times on their "production type" offerings are 6 - 8 weeks, customs depend on shop load. They're building a custom for me (a copy of Fredric Sell's Pegasus rifle) that still has 2 other custom orders ahead of it -- I started at 4 down 4 months ago. They stand behind their work & are concerned with customer satisfaction. Steve Lodding also makes some outstanding powder horns. Their work has been shown at Mansker Station the last 2 years. If you're looking for authenticity, they've done extensive research in the arts of gun building. We also have 3 other builders in the area who do high quality work, but they're part time builders & are usualy snowed under. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wintering Grounds Date: 08 Oct 1998 18:40:12 EDT Jim, A grad student at BYU studing under Dr. Gowans did his thesis on Mountaineer wintering sites I believe. He recently moved to Nebraska I think, but promised me a copy when it was printed. I'll track him down and get back to you. Todd D. Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steve Lodding Date: 08 Oct 1998 17:53:42 EDT For those interested... in addition to some fine guns, Steve Lodding shop also makes / sells some of the most beautiful Powder Horns, Rum Horns, Salt 'n Pepper Horns, and 'unbreakable' ramrods, and is one hellova scrimshand for your prized stuff, too. RR (He Who Shoots Himself) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 08 Oct 1998 12:26:17 -0700 Just a thought... I'd bet a couple mint leaves in the water would cover up any taste of gourd, assuming you like mint! Medicine Bear Henry B. Crawford wrote: > >Hi Henry, I have been making gourd canteens a bit lately. I have been > >sealing the inside with paraffin as you describe. My question is, I still > >get a gourdy taste to the water. Is there anyway to eliminate this? It's not > >a big problem but if there is some trick I am missing I'd like to know. > > No trick. The water might taste a bit stale especially if it sat for > several hours, and a very slight hint of gourd taste might remain, but that > should not > overpower the taste of the water itself. Just like water from a tin cup > can have a slight metallic taste. I test my waxed gourds by leaving them > filled over night and drinking the water the next day. I never had a batch > of water that tasted too much like the gourd. > > Colleen (Many Ducks) says she uses baking soda to kill the odor. I might > try that as an intermediate step after cleaning and before waxing. > > >Also, I have been varnishing the outside of the gourd. I sew a piece of wet > >rawhide around the neck, leaving a loop and let it dry to facilitate > >carrying. > > I coat the outside with a handful of soft, warm wax. I too make rawhide > handles for carrying. These can get realy creative. > > Cheers, > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 08 Oct 1998 12:22:30 -0700 NM, Happen to have their address and phone number? MB NaugaMok@aol.com wrote: > If you want a good rifle from a Las Vegas NV builder, check into Lodding & > McClenehan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PDS Golf Course Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pipestone Date: 08 Oct 1998 20:14:58 -0700 It sounds to me like you don't have "real" Catlinite, i.e. pipe stone. I made up several pipes and had no trouble, cutting it that is. In fact it was out of the ground and on the shelf of a rock shop in Phoenix for about ten years before I got it. The real trick was those little pebbles in it! Man, you hit one of those with your knife and the whole thing would split! Adds new meaning to the word patience. Jon Bollin AMM #1639 MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote: > I was recently given a piece of pipestone for a pipe bowl. I've read > that the material was often shaped by scraping with knife blades. I > can't make a dent in this stuff with a horseshoe rasp much less a > knife. What's the trick? > Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy > MacRaith@SWBell.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 08 Oct 1998 21:37:09 EDT J.P. Gunstocks = 4508 San Miguel Avenue, North Las Vegas, NV 89030, phone (702) 645-0718 fax (702) 645-9576 internet: www.jpgunstocks.com JP Gunstocks, Inc., Muzzleloading Rifles - Pistols - Smooth Bores yhs, He Who Shoots Himself ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 08 Oct 1998 19:07:29 -0700 Nauga mok, Does the McClenahan in the Lodding & McClenahan sometimes go by the handle 2 Hawks? On another note to everyone on the list. I know a ner' do well here in northern NV who builds fantastic guns. Contact me off the list and I'll let anyone know how to contact him and get his brochure. Your most disobediant and onry' hivernant Sega ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 08 Oct 1998 20:35:44 +0000 steve Lodding- gun maker, scrimshander 6510 W El Campo Grande Las Vegas, Nv 89130 (702) 656- 6085 I too have been in their shop, they do fabulous work, and I own several Of Steve's scrimshaw pieces. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 08 Oct 1998 20:43:10 +0000 I have made many gourd canteens. I prefer a parafin & bee's wax mixture. It seems straight parifin is too hard, and cracks easily. Pure bee's wax is to soft, and melts too easily. I find the bee's wax gives my water a hint of sweet taste. I reline the gourds periodically by places in a warm oven until wax is melted, then pour out old wax. Then pour in some fresh wax. Don't leave a 'less than full' waxed canteen in the sun. The wax may melt and blister. It's easy to fix, but keep 'em in the shade anyway. I stitch some trade wool, or old blanket on the gourd, then do a 2-3'" rawhide strip around the edge of the gourd (these are the round gourds). I use cheap rawhide dog chew bones for raw material, just soak overnight to get workable rawhide in proper sizes. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 09 Oct 1998 00:05:58 EDT In a message dated 98-10-08 19:14:03 EDT, you write: << Happen to have their address and phone number? >> Lodding & McClenahan 6510 W. El Campo Grande Las Vegas, NV 89130 Phone -- Speed call #5 ----- OOPS!! Try: (702)656-6085 Check out their full page add in July/ Aug, '98 Muzzleloader -- page 2. By the way, that add is some of my wife's handiwork. Keith & Steve make a great team. Keith is the research & development specialist, & Steve is the artist. If you should happen to find your way to their shop, ask to see the new set trigger Keith developed for pistol -- it's REALY something! I think they're putting it in their "production" pistol. If you want to see some of Steve's outstanding scrim work, you aughta see the Otter he scrimed on a "ivory" inlay in the pistol they built for my wife. The "unbreakable ramrod" they offer is a wood rod with a stick of 10 - 32 all- thread through the center. Only adds a smidge extra weight, but makes a nearly indestructable period appearing rod that won't hurt your bores. I've got 2 of 'em! The tip is cross pinned through both the wood & all-thread so you don't have to worry about it coming off if you go after a stuck ball & a screw on "T" handle comes with the rod. They've recently added a pewter button to cover the as an end attachnent to keep the all-thread from poking your hand when not using the "T" handle. Pat -- Did you get to see that Manton lock Steve built that you could dump a cup of water on & it'd still flash the prime? That got a LOT of attention at Mansker Station this year! He & Keith have studied the Manton locks extensively (as well as the Manton breech designs), & that lock is the result. Steve just started engraving metal about a year ago, & it looks like he's been at it for YEARS -- those who've seen it know I'm not exagerating. Just to keep things on the up & up, I don't work for them, & probably will reap no benefits for singing their praises --- & they'll probably beat me soundly tomorrow night in the periodic card game we get into! Steve & Keith are EXCELENT gunsmiths. Steve is outstanding for horn building & scrimshaw. AND they're a couple of nice guys. By the way -- Steve is also a AMM member. For those looking for high quality quill work, get in touch with them & they can turn you on to our local "Quill Freak" -- another local craftsman that's a cut above. Nauga Mok ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 09 Oct 1998 01:06:02 EDT In a message dated 98-10-09 00:01:37 EDT, you write: << Does the McClenahan in the Lodding & McClenahan sometimes go by the handle 2 Hawks? No -- Keith is "Wolf Breath" --- Steve Lodding is "Dog Thief". Keith's kids are "Mean", "Wart", "Toad", & "Tick". Keith has a couple of brothers who are also heavy into muzzleloading -- 2 Hawks might be one of them -- I've never heard their Mt names even though I've met them several times. Wife sez it ain't them either. One of them has a rather intresting Hawkin he built. It's a .98 cal -- muzzle looks like the Holland Tunnel! He sez he figures the optimum powder charge should be 400 gr of 1F, but he has a tendency to set down rather hard if he puts over 300 gr in it. < I know a ner' do well here in northern NV who builds fantastic guns. Contact me off the list and I'll let anyone know how to contact him and get his brochure. >> Wouldn't be talking about Bob "Iron Jaw" Rathbun who does the building at North Star West would you? For trade guns, he's excelent! Got one of his guns too. Took a 2nd place with it the first time I competed with it -- infact, I tied with Wolf Breath & got lucky in the shoot off. It ain't every day some one beats the ole Wolf! The 1st place winner was the guy who puts out the "Fire-in-Five" fire start kit -- another local -- & a pretty fair smooth bore shooter. Maybe you saw the feature on Iron Jaw in Muzzleloader? >From what I've seen, there are only 3 suppliers of quality tradeguns -- Iron Jaw, Danny Caywood, & Center Mark -- I picked Iron Jaw 'cuz I've met him numerous times at rondys -- & he's even attended our club's doin's -- AND he's from NV. He's very knowledgable in the tradegun field. The newest addition to the North Star West line is the "Officer's Model Musket" & it's a fine piece of work! I think Bob is doing a exceptional job of carrying on the work Ole Curley Gostomski started. If you get a trade gun from Keith & Steve, they got most of the parts from Iron Jaw! NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pipestone Date: 09 Oct 1998 05:38:32 -0500 On 1998-10-07 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) >Washtahay- >At 03:16 AM 10/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >I was recently given a piece of pipestone for a pipe bowl. >>I've >read that the material was often shaped by scraping with >>knife >blades. I can't make a dent in this stuff with a >>horseshoe rasp >much less a knife. What's the trick? >> >Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy >> >MacRaith@SWBell.net >>the pipestone I've carved was 3-4 days out of the ground and >>carved like soapstone when I started it like granite a year later >>when I finished it. I think you got some that has been out of the >>groung to long,the only things I've found that work it then are >silicon carbide and diamond tools. When all else fails, soak it in >water for a while-maybe as much as a year. It works, and its >traditional (or at least is what I was taught when I did an >apprenticeship of sorts in pipemaking). I'd suggest keeping it >from freezing, for fear of expansion cracks-but I don't know if >this is necessary. LongWalker c. du B Wish I knew that a year ago! Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698 Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: info on jp gunstocks Date: 09 Oct 1998 10:23:32 -0700 Steve in particular is a nut about Manton designs. He was showing me his replications of Manton pan designs, exactly as you say. Your description is excellent. I'm sure there are plenty of other good gunsmiths, but I agree Steve and Keith have a passion for their work. Pat Q -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 9:06 PM In a message dated 98-10-08 19:14:03 EDT, you write: << Happen to have their address and phone number? >> Lodding & McClenahan 6510 W. El Campo Grande Las Vegas, NV 89130 Phone -- Speed call #5 ----- OOPS!! Try: (702)656-6085 Check out their full page add in July/ Aug, '98 Muzzleloader -- page 2. By the way, that add is some of my wife's handiwork. Keith & Steve make a great team. Keith is the research & development specialist, & Steve is the artist. If you should happen to find your way to their shop, ask to see the new set trigger Keith developed for pistol -- it's REALY something! I think they're putting it in their "production" pistol. If you want to see some of Steve's outstanding scrim work, you aughta see the Otter he scrimed on a "ivory" inlay in the pistol they built for my wife. The "unbreakable ramrod" they offer is a wood rod with a stick of 10 - 32 all- thread through the center. Only adds a smidge extra weight, but makes a nearly indestructable period appearing rod that won't hurt your bores. I've got 2 of 'em! The tip is cross pinned through both the wood & all-thread so you don't have to worry about it coming off if you go after a stuck ball & a screw on "T" handle comes with the rod. They've recently added a pewter button to cover the as an end attachnent to keep the all-thread from poking your hand when not using the "T" handle. Pat -- Did you get to see that Manton lock Steve built that you could dump a cup of water on & it'd still flash the prime? That got a LOT of attention at Mansker Station this year! He & Keith have studied the Manton locks extensively (as well as the Manton breech designs), & that lock is the result. Steve just started engraving metal about a year ago, & it looks like he's been at it for YEARS -- those who've seen it know I'm not exagerating. Just to keep things on the up & up, I don't work for them, & probably will reap no benefits for singing their praises --- & they'll probably beat me soundly tomorrow night in the periodic card game we get into! Steve & Keith are EXCELENT gunsmiths. Steve is outstanding for horn building & scrimshaw. AND they're a couple of nice guys. By the way -- Steve is also a AMM member. For those looking for high quality quill work, get in touch with them & they can turn you on to our local "Quill Freak" -- another local craftsman that's a cut above. Nauga Mok ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pipestone Date: 09 Oct 1998 20:07:51 -0500 if you have to do that you dont have pipestone---what you have is jasper or petrified wood---both make fine flints for rifles--- =+= hawk michael pierce 854 glenfield dr. palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 03:33:30 -0500 MacRaith@mail.swbell.net writes: >I was recently given a piece of pipestone for a pipe bowl. I've read >that the material was often shaped by scraping with knife blades. I >can't make a dent in this stuff with a horseshoe rasp much less a >knife. What's the trick? >Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy >MacRaith@SWBell.net > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed Date: 09 Oct 1998 20:03:45 -0500 addison--- dont forget what i said about the allen screws for the liner---take a propane torch and heat the set end red---this will kill the case hardebing and then you can drill it with a .050 dia drill---it is easy to remove and install with the allen and provides a good champher for the flash--- =+= hawk michael pierce 854 glenfield dr. palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:28:10 -0400 sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) writes: >Thanks for all the advise guys! I finally got ahold of Thunder Ridge >and >got the lock for the Traditions and installed it. Fits great!! Now I >justneedthe touch hole liner... Thanks again > >Addison Miller > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Information needed Date: 10 Oct 1998 07:26:23 -0700 Hello the camp !~~! I too am seeking information on an old fur trapper/trader. He is certainly familiar to some but I need more specific and finite information (with source reference, please.) He is Louis Roubidoux (also spelled : Robidooux, Rubidoux, etc.) Following the decline of the fur trade he, like many a mountain man, settled in California, more specifically Southern California. He chose an area now known as Jurupa, near Riverside, and was a very wealthy rancher. He was elected three time to the San Bernardino County Board of Supervisors. If anyone can elaborate further on the above biography I would appreciate it. Also, did he ever marry, who and when? What was his wife's name and were there any children. Any and all information would be greatly appreciated. Again, please reference sources. Many thanks. John Funk j2hearts@juno.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 10 Oct 1998 15:36:44 -0400 While we are on the subject. I've made many canteen out of bottle gourds, but I grew the real canteen gourds this year and have no idea how to put a spout one. These are the M&M shaped ones. Any help would be appreciated. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 10 Oct 1998 18:13:21 +0000 Scott, The flattened round ones, M&M shaped, are the one's I've done most. I put a spout on these this way; Take a large dowel (closet rod works well). Trace the diameter of the dowel onto a likely spot on the gourd. Drill, or cut out just inside of the scribed circle. Now, carefully file up to the line, checking with dowel often- to obtain a perfect fit of the dowel into the canteen. Now drill a cork sized hole into the dowel. Set the dowel into the canteen part way and seal using preferred method. Don't tell anyone, but I use a hot glue gun (looks like wax). Pitch would work, as many other materials< I'm sure. Now you have a spout sticking out of your canteen. I then cut , and sew a blanket cover on the canteen. Then, I take a several inch wide piece of rawhide and cut a hole in each end of the 'strap' big enough to fit over the spout. I hang the canteen, then put one hole of the strap over the spout, wrap raw hide around edge and put other hole of 'strap' over spout from the other side. Be careful, raw hide will shrink while drying! I have found through practice that allowing a 3-4 finger gap under bottom edge of gourd and rawhide will provide a snug fit once dried. Monitor this process until you get it right. i e: keep checking it to make sure your drying rawhide doesn't rip spout loose. when 1/2 dry (approx) i will stitch a star, or spider web pattern, from the edge of raw hide on each side across the front of the canteen- this provides a neat , good looking rawhide wrap around the canteen. Also before wrapping raw hide around gourd, punch two side by side holes at about the 10 and 2 o'clock position. This will allow a small leather loop to be tied, in order to attach shoulder strap, if desired. Any questions, or clarification? Just ask....I wish I could draw you a picture. Maybe I should write an article for T& LR? Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marlis Simms Subject: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux Date: 11 Oct 1998 17:46:28 -0700 Dear Mr. Funk, If you would like information about Mr. Robidoux, you might want to contact Dan Deuter at Ft. Uncompaghre in Delta Colorado. The phone number of the Fort is (970) 874-8349. There is an article on the Fort in the July/August issue of the MuzzleLoader Magazine. Dan and a few people came to New Mexico a few years ago and went through the archives in Santa Fe and got some information on Robidoux and others. Marlis Editor/Publisher The Rendezvous Report ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux Date: 11 Oct 1998 20:42:37 -0700 Mr. Simms, I thank you for your response. I have passed on your information to my Father who has been commissioned do a history and biography of past members of the San Bernardino County (CA) Board of Supervisors. John Funk Fall River Mills, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Karmalee & Stanton Le Sieur" Subject: MtMan-List: Ceran St. Vrain Date: 12 Oct 1998 12:47:53 -0700 I am interested in this message I found while browsing the net. I am a descendant in the Saint Vrain Family and desire to know more about the family origins and genealogy. I have a source on the history of the Saint Vrain and De Lassus family written by a Paul Augustus St. Vrain many years ago. I would like to share information with persons interested and who can also help me. Does this book have such information? Who compiled this book? Who is interested and why? Please let me know. My phone if interested is 503-524-3042. or email. Thanks SALeSieur@msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 12 Oct 1998 16:46:34 -0400 Thanks Randy. That was about how I visualized. A picture would be helpful, but I think I follow pretty well. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michnat97@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: hi Date: 12 Oct 1998 20:41:17 EDT I was wondering if you could tell me where i could find parts for a h& 45/70 trapp door gun thank you scott mcdwell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux Date: 12 Oct 1998 22:28:28 EDT In a message dated 98-10-12 02:26:10 EDT, you write: << If you would like information about Mr. Robidoux, you might want to contact Dan Deuter at Ft. Uncompaghre in Delta Colorado. The phone number of the Fort is (970) 874-8349. This is good information, but it's for Antoine. I thought John was looking for info on Louis. From what I've read of Antoine, when he closed Ft Uncompagre, he returned to Missouri instead of going to California like Louis evidently did. Maybe Antoine DID wind up being the Robidoux John is looking for, but it was my understanding Antoine wound up in St Joseph Mo where there's a hotel named for him -- or there used to be. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Canoeing the Yellowsone to Ft Union Date: 12 Oct 1998 19:21:46 +0000 Brothers, There is a group of us (AMM Brothers) trying to organize a canoe trip for next summer ('99). We are trying to determine if it reasonable to canoe part of the Yellowstone, to Ft. Union, and then do a day or two on the Missouri from there. We'd be looking at approx. 5 days. Does anyone have any information on this part of the Yellowstone? We are interested in the Yellowstone/ Missouri confluence area. Trying to find out conditions (class ?), length of trip , etc... any Info. would be greatly appreciated. I have paddled about 600 miles of the Missouri, and some of our group have done more than that. Any info. , or tips on obtaining info. would be appreciated. Thanks, Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed Date: 12 Oct 1998 23:40:34 -0400 Thanks ... will do :) Lock fit great... had to router it out about 1/32" to get it to fit well... a lil sloppy, but hey... my frist time... *grin*... -----Original Message----- >addison--- >dont forget what i said about the allen screws for the liner---take a >propane torch and heat the set end red---this will kill the case >hardebing and then you can drill it with a .050 dia drill---it is easy to >remove and install with the allen and provides a good champher for the >flash--- > >=+= >hawk >michael pierce >854 glenfield dr. >palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com > >On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:28:10 -0400 sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) >writes: >>Thanks for all the advise guys! I finally got ahold of Thunder Ridge >>and >>got the lock for the Traditions and installed it. Fits great!! Now I >>justneedthe touch hole liner... Thanks again >> >>Addison Miller >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Christian Royal Rangers group for boys? Date: 12 Oct 1998 23:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Scott, I can help you with this. What a strange coincidence. This past weekend I was out with another AMM member for 3 days. We backpacked about 3 or 4 miles to our site (which turned out to be by a waterfall) and set up camp. After awaking the next morning and making coffee and hot chocolate (I don't drink coffee) we were greeted by a group of about 10 kids and their leader, from a group of Royal Rangers. The leader explained who they were and what they were about. He asked if we minded if they camped near by us and we said no problem. In fact, we said that we would be happy to give them a tour of our camp later that afternoon. We went out hunting and after our return, later that afternoon explained all our gear, told them what we did (as mountaineers) put on a shooting demonstration and showed them how to make a fire with flint and steel. They were so impressed, they asked us to put on another demonstration for a regional gathering here in Southern California. The leader will be contacting me in the next couple of weeks and if you want to contact me off line, I'll put you in touch with him. My e-mail address is: zaz@pacificnet.net or call me at my office during the day at (213) 351-6119 or my home # is (805) 581-4717. Usually it is best to call at the office as I am not always at home in the evening. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 08:05 PM 10/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hello the List; > >I was wondering if any of you could give me some information on a group for >kids which I believe was called the Royal Rangers. If I remember >correctly, it was a group somewhat like the Boy Scouts which combined >living history with our kind of woodslore for boys in their teenage years. >It was also Christian based which, is a plus, and appeals to me more than >the baloney I've been hearing about the BSA the last few years. > >I have been searching the net, but to no avail. Could somebody out there >help me out? My kids are a little young at the moment, but in a few >years.... > >In advance I thank you, > >Scott >sjsdm@conpoint.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 23 Sep 1998 11:33:37 -0500 Hello to the list: I am just getting started and am looking for good resource material for the Scottish during the French Indian War & more specifically on those that went mountain man afterwards. Any suggestions? Also, what research I've done suggests that they'd have made cuarans after their shoes wore out in the mountains, but I can't find an picture references or patterns. Can anyone help? Thanks John David Scott ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hi Date: 13 Oct 1998 08:31:11 -0600 (CST) >I was wondering if you could tell me where i could find parts for a h& 45/70 >trapp door gun thank you scott mcdwell Two places I'd check: Dixie Gun Works 800/238-6785 and S&S Firearms 718/497-1100 Both have excellent catalogs. Good luck HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Canoeing the Yellowsone to Ft Union Date: 13 Oct 1998 08:35:03 -0700 Not a problem. Floated this section of the Yellowstone several years ago by canoe. All that's needed are a few basic canoeing skills and to remain attentive. Class 1 & 2 all the way. The only potential problem I'm aware of is the diversion dam at Intake just downstream of Glendive. (you may not be starting that far upstream) It's particularly nasty made up of riprap and old concrete chunks with the rebar sticking up. Water flows over the diversion's entire length but there's no safe way to float through. Portage is easy on River Right (facing downstream). There's also a great spot to put in just below the diversion off highway 16. Montana's "Official Highway Map" for 1997 - 98 clearly shows the diversion at Intake. There are several books on floating Montana Waters, Check Amazon.com, but I have yet to find an excellent one. Remember there is such a thing as knowing too much (at least for me). Takes the sense of adventure and exploration away. Have fun. Last time I did it I promised myself next time would be in a Bullboat. Those hides are awful expensive though. Kurt RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote: > Brothers, There is a group of us (AMM Brothers) trying to organize a > canoe trip for next summer ('99). We are trying to determine if it > reasonable to canoe part of the Yellowstone, to Ft. Union, and then do a > day or two on the Missouri from there. We'd be looking at approx. 5 > days. Does anyone have any information on this part of the Yellowstone? > We are interested in the Yellowstone/ Missouri confluence area. Trying > to find out conditions (class ?), length of trip , etc... any Info. would > be greatly appreciated. I have paddled about 600 miles of the Missouri, > and some of our group have done more than that. Any info. , or tips on > obtaining info. would be appreciated. Thanks, Hardtack > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hi Date: 13 Oct 1998 08:42:18 -0600 There is a compay in Sand POint Idaho, Called Buffalo Tipi Company, Dave Gullo owes it, Good guy he may be able to help you Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: MtMan-List: Charles Courtin?? Date: 13 Oct 1998 08:58:12 -0700 --------------1D0C3D96CB4FCC4F0A87EF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy In the book Bozeman and the Gallatin Valley : a history, by Phillis Smith , page 28 there's a reference to a Charles Courtin , French -Canadian, Maybe working for David Thompson, building a shack at the Three Forks of the Missouri in the winter of 1806 - 07. The same winter Lewis & Party were hangin' out with the Clatsop. Appearently trappers Joseph Dickson and Forrest Handcock met Courtin the winter of 1805 - 06 while he was wintering with the Teton Sioux. Ms. Smith goes on to say Courtin "moved west to the Clark Fork where he established a real trading post, operating it until February 1810, when he was killed by a Blackfeet war Party. British traders call the Clark Fork itself Courtine's Creek in his memory until the 1820's." This intrigued me. I had not heard of any structue in the Three Forks until 1810 (Three Forks Post of Lisa's Missouri River Fur Co. you know - Andrew Henry, Colter, George Drewyer was killed near there, etc.) Smith's book is not footnoted so I'm looking for more references to Courtin. In Sources of the River by Jack Nisbet Courtin is refered to as a naturalized American and spelled Courter and only talks about his death. But mostly I want to know about him in Three Forks. Any input anyone. Kurt --------------1D0C3D96CB4FCC4F0A87EF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy
In the book Bozeman and the Gallatin Valley : a history,  by Phillis Smith , page 28 there's a reference to a Charles Courtin , French -Canadian, Maybe working for David Thompson, building a shack at the Three Forks of the Missouri in the winter of 1806 - 07.  The same winter Lewis & Party were hangin' out with the Clatsop.  Appearently trappers Joseph Dickson and Forrest Handcock met Courtin the winter of 1805 - 06 while he was wintering with the Teton Sioux.  Ms. Smith goes on to say Courtin "moved west to the Clark Fork where he established a real trading post, operating it until February 1810, when he was killed by a Blackfeet war Party.  British traders call the Clark Fork itself Courtine's Creek in his memory until the 1820's."

This intrigued me.  I had not heard of any structue in the Three Forks until 1810 (Three Forks Post of Lisa's Missouri River Fur Co.  you know - Andrew Henry, Colter, George Drewyer was killed near there, etc.)  Smith's book is not footnoted so I'm looking for more references to Courtin.  In Sources of the River by Jack Nisbet Courtin is refered to as a naturalized American and spelled Courter and only talks about his death.  But mostly I want to know about him in Three Forks.

Any input anyone.

Kurt --------------1D0C3D96CB4FCC4F0A87EF20-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wayne Mumford Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charles Courtin?? Date: 12 Oct 1998 22:30:40 -0600 Kurt, Thats a new one for me too. If you find a lead on it let me know as I'm interested in the areas history also. Will look in the Wood/Thiesen book that has some info on Thompson and see if it has anything. Wayne -- Frontier Filmworks Still Photography by Wayne Mumford Locations-Prints-Stock Images The Lewis & Clark Trail http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wayne Mumford Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Canoeing the Yellowsone to Ft Union Date: 12 Oct 1998 22:35:16 -0600 Was just out on the lower Yellowstone in July. There is a short stretch of refuges between Glendive and Sidney that is very nice. Good camping areas etc. -- Frontier Filmworks Still Photography by Wayne Mumford Locations-Prints-Stock Images The Lewis & Clark Trail http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannons amongst John Works Snake Expedition 31-32 Date: 13 Oct 1998 09:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Are you sure that you have the right date? ---Lee Newbill wrote: > > Good Day > > Came across a reference about a cannon bursting during a skirmish > between John Work's Snake expedition and a band from the Blackfeet tribe. > > Date is about Jan 30 1932. Checked Dean's site, but unfortunately, the > journal from that time frame doesn't mention this. > > Does anyone know what kind of cannon he had? > > Regards > > Lee Newbill > Viola, Idaho > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Keller Subject: MtMan-List: Texas Fur Trade Date: 13 Oct 1998 10:11:47 -0700 (PDT) I am trying to compile information on the Texas Fur Trade during the early 19th century. Can anyone help? Y.M.O.S. Sam _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texas Fur Trade Date: 13 Oct 1998 11:32:54 PDT Sam, Contact the Museum of the Great Plains in Lawton Oklahoma for their compiled information on Holland Coffee and Warren Able(?) These men operated posts on the Red River in the early part of the 19th century. Also if you are interested, contact me off list and I will forward what information I have. Cliff Tiffie Rt. 1 Box 82C Caddo, OK 74729 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Ailments de Pays! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texas Fur Trade Date: 13 Oct 1998 16:17:57 -0500 Sam Keller wrote: > > I am trying to compile information on the Texas Fur Trade during the > early 19th century. Can anyone help? > > Y.M.O.S. > > Sam > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Sam, I did a little of this myself some time ago. If I can find my notes I'll shoot you a line. I do remember it was mostly deer hides. Snakeshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David & Evelyn Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charles Courtin?? Date: 13 Oct 1998 16:45:46 +0000 Mr. Westenbarger, A quick search in _The Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West_ Volume III, Page 328, David Thompson biography, Alvin M. Josephy author, has the following quote: In February, Thompson also noted the slaying by Blackfeet at the nearby site of present day Dixon, Montana, of an American hunter named Courter, who was probably Charles Courtin, a French-Canadian trader who had taken American citizenship and is believed to have preceded Manuel Lisa up the Missouri in 1807. Courtin had apparently reached the Three Forks, built a post there, and then moved across the continental divide to erect another post near present-day Missoula, Montana. (19) Footnote 19 - Josephy, _The Nez Perce Indians and the Opening of the Northwest_ (New Haven, Conn., 1965) 45, 660-63. Hope this of some assistance. Regards, David Mullen -- David & Evelyn Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs, NM 87025 505.829.3212 email:dmullen@jemez.com Kurt Westenbarger wrote: > > Howdy > In the book Bozeman and the Gallatin Valley : a history,  by Phillis > Smith , page 28 there's a reference to a Charles Courtin , French > -Canadian, Maybe working for David Thompson, building a shack at the > Three Forks of the Missouri in the winter of 1806 - 07.  The same > winter Lewis & Party were hangin' out with the Clatsop.  Appearently > trappers Joseph Dickson and Forrest Handcock met Courtin the winter of > 1805 - 06 while he was wintering with the Teton Sioux.  Ms. Smith goes > on to say Courtin "moved west to the Clark Fork where he established a > real trading post, operating it until February 1810, when he was > killed by a Blackfeet war Party.  British traders call the Clark Fork > itself Courtine's Creek in his memory until the 1820's." > > This intrigued me.  I had not heard of any structue in the Three Forks > until 1810 (Three Forks Post of Lisa's Missouri River Fur Co.  you > know - Andrew Henry, Colter, George Drewyer was killed near there, > etc.)  Smith's book is not footnoted so I'm looking for more > references to Courtin.  In Sources of the River by Jack Nisbet Courtin > is refered to as a naturalized American and spelled Courter and only > talks about his death.  But mostly I want to know about him in Three > Forks. > > Any input anyone. > > Kurt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 13 Oct 1998 16:05:15 -0700 To all: Do I understand you correctly that when you wax gourds that you "fill it up to the top" with melted wax, then pour it out, repeat a couple of times? Rather than swirl the wax. Gail Carbiener ==================================== -----Original Message----- >I have made many gourd canteens. I prefer a parafin & bee's wax mixture. >It seems straight parifin is too hard, and cracks easily. Pure bee's wax >is to soft, and melts too easily. I find the bee's wax gives my water a >hint of sweet taste. I reline the gourds periodically by places in a >warm oven until wax is melted, then pour out old wax. Then pour in some >fresh wax. Don't leave a 'less than full' waxed canteen in the sun. The >wax may melt and blister. It's easy to fix, but keep 'em in the shade >anyway. I stitch some trade wool, or old blanket on the gourd, then do a >2-3'" rawhide strip around the edge of the gourd (these are the round >gourds). I use cheap rawhide dog chew bones for raw material, just soak >overnight to get workable rawhide in proper sizes. Hardtack > > > > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PDS Golf Course Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 13 Oct 1998 16:09:43 -0700 John, I'd like to know more on the Scots in the Fur Trade as well. Can you keep me up on what you find, I'll do the same. Jon Bollin AMM #1639 MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote: > Hello to the list: > > I am just getting started and am looking for good resource material > for the Scottish during the French Indian War & more specifically on > those that went mountain man afterwards. Any suggestions? > > Also, what research I've done suggests that they'd have made cuarans > after their shoes wore out in the mountains, but I can't find an picture > references or patterns. Can anyone help? > > Thanks > > John David Scott ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry Landis" Subject: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list Date: 13 Oct 1998 16:27:36 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDF6C6.6371C5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ok real quick like, if you brain tan with cow brains can you freeze them before use? also how long will a tan sol. keep? Terry Landis ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDF6C6.6371C5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled Stationery

ok real quick like, if you brain tan with cow brains can you = freeze them=20 before use? also how long will a tan sol. keep?
 Terry Landis
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDF6C6.6371C5C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PDS Golf Course Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list Date: 13 Oct 1998 16:51:50 -0700 --------------E8409447BEF46E0A075FE562 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry, Real quick answer, YES! I buy 'em frozen by the 20lb case from the butcher at the Safeway. He has to special order them, takes about a week. $12.20 per case from IBP. Jon Bollin AMM #1639 Terry Landis wrote: > ok real quick like, if you brain tan with cow brains can you freeze > them before use? also how long will a tan sol. keep? Terry Landis --------------E8409447BEF46E0A075FE562 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry,
Real quick answer, YES!
I buy 'em frozen by the 20lb case from the butcher at the Safeway. He has to special order them, takes about a week.  $12.20 per case from IBP.
Jon Bollin AMM #1639

Terry Landis wrote:

 ok real quick like, if you brain tan with cow brains can you freeze them before use? also how long will a tan sol. keep? Terry Landis
  --------------E8409447BEF46E0A075FE562-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux Date: 13 Oct 1998 06:17:50 -0700 NM Your right. I am looking for (later life) information on Louis Robidoux, during the time frame when he relocated to California. But, any information may lead to more details elsewhere. John Funk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list Date: 13 Oct 1998 20:03:37 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BDF6E4.9088C220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I defer to Jon's answer on freezing brains. However, be very careful = with the brain solution. A few years ago we brained some deer hides = with pork brains at a week long camp and let the solution set around too = long, even though it was pretty cool. Bob Welton used the solution and = came down with a major infection in a couple of insignificant cuts on = his hands. He was down for most of a week. Buy lots of brains and make = fresh batches as needed. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- From: Terry Landis To: Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com Date: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 4:28 PM Subject: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list =20 =20 ok real quick like, if you brain tan with cow brains can you freeze = them before use? also how long will a tan sol. keep? Terry Landis ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BDF6E4.9088C220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled Stationery
I defer to Jon's answer on freezing=20 brains.  However, be very careful with the brain solution.  A = few=20 years ago we brained some deer hides with pork brains at a week long = camp and=20 let the solution set around too long, even though it was pretty = cool.  Bob=20 Welton used the solution and came down with a major infection in a = couple of=20 insignificant cuts on his hands.  He was down for most of a = week.  Buy=20 lots of brains and make fresh batches as needed.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Terry Landis <landis1@gte.net>
To:=20 Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, October 13, 1998 4:28 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = re:=20 MtMan-list

ok real quick like, if you brain = tan with=20 cow brains can you freeze them before use? also how long will a tan = sol.=20 keep?
 Terry=20 Landis
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BDF6E4.9088C220-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list Date: 13 Oct 1998 20:01:49 -0700 --------------12269A70A23C640727F841BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lanney Ratcliff wrote: I defer to Jon's answer on freezing brains. However, be very careful with the brain solution. I have read that the brain solution can be kept and reused with the addition of additional brains and warm water ( John McPhereson, Brain tanning buckskin.) But I have to agree with Lanny. Brain solution is just the right temp. to breed all sorts of bacteria and its composition makes it similar to the culture in petris dishes. (Ground liver. etc.) It is spoiled the instant you use it. Improper care could lead to a bad infection, and if you don't wash your hands thoroughly you could cross contaminate all sorts of things. Brains are cheap and if you are really frugal you could do your hides in batches or buy the brains in bulk and keep enough on hand so you have more if your first braining does not take or you have too many hides to do at once. Your most onry and disobedient hivernant. Sega > --------------12269A70A23C640727F841BA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
 I defer to Jon's answer on freezing brains.  However, be very careful with the brain solution.
 
I have read that the brain solution can be kept and reused with the addition of additional brains and warm water ( John McPhereson, Brain tanning buckskin.)  But I have to agree with Lanny.  Brain solution is just the right temp. to breed all sorts of bacteria and its composition makes it similar to the culture in petris dishes.  (Ground liver. etc.) It is spoiled the instant you use it.  Improper care could lead to a bad infection, and if you don't wash your hands thoroughly you could cross contaminate all sorts of things.  Brains are cheap and if you are really frugal you could do your hides in batches or buy the brains in bulk and keep enough on hand so you have more if your first braining does not take or you have too many hides to do at once.

Your most onry and disobedient hivernant.
Sega

 
--------------12269A70A23C640727F841BA-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Phil Petersen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list Date: 13 Oct 1998 21:35:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BDF6F1.63304160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I use pork brains and have found out the hard way. For $1.30 per = container it is not worth taking the chance on the solution going "bad", = especially if you have a hide in the solution. It takes a long time for = the aroma to go away. Stubborn -----Original Message----- From: Terry Landis To: Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com Date: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 6:28 PM Subject: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list =20 =20 ok real quick like, if you brain tan with cow brains can you freeze = them before use? also how long will a tan sol. keep? Terry Landis ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BDF6F1.63304160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled Stationery
I use pork brains and have found out = the hard=20 way.  For $1.30 per container it is not worth taking the chance on = the=20 solution going "bad", especially if you have a hide in the=20 solution.  It takes a long time for the aroma to go = away.
 
Stubborn
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Terry Landis <landis1@gte.net>
To:=20 Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, October 13, 1998 6:28 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = re:=20 MtMan-list

ok real quick like, if you brain = tan with=20 cow brains can you freeze them before use? also how long will a tan = sol.=20 keep?
 Terry=20 Landis
------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BDF6F1.63304160-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannons amongst John Works Snake Expedition 31-32 Date: 13 Oct 1998 20:52:45 -0700 (PDT) On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Sam Keller wrote: > Are you sure that you have the right date? > ---Lee Newbill wrote: > > Came across a reference about a cannon bursting during a skirmish > > between John Work's Snake expedition and a band from the Blackfeet > tribe. > > > > Date is about Jan 30 1932. Finally found the info again.... "At break of day on January 30, the camp was attacked by a strong party of three hundred Blackfeet, who were repulsed after hard fighting. The cannon burst at the third discharge, but fortunately no one was injured." The quote is taken from a mid 30's master thesis, and refers to Work's 1831-1832 Snake expedition. Additionally, in the same paper..... Found a reference to a "brass three pounder" taken on expedition by Alexander Ross in 1824... so, I am now suspecting it is one and the same gun.... now I'm just curious as to what a brass three pounder looks like and how was it moved through the rough country... I know the US army in later years would dissasemble thier mountain howitzers and pack 'em on mules.... did the boys from HBC do the same? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux Date: 14 Oct 1998 00:04:14 EDT John, I posted the following to your personal e-mail but it bounced back. How's the house? Surely the roof's on by now. Will you make it by winter? It's getting closer and closer? What else is new? All's well here. Saw your post about Robidoux. There's a biography of him in Hafen's Mountain Men and the Fur Trade, Vol. VIII, (written by David Weber) as well as another dozen or so entries throughout the series. David Weber writes quite a bit about him in "The Taos Trapper." (By the way, Weber is the keynote speaker for the fur trade symposium coming up in Stockton this April) He crops up here and there in various other sources but those two may be the most extensive, especially the Hafen article. Let me know if you want copies of these. If the list turns up anyting that looks goo, let me know and if I've got it on the shelf, I can send copies of that too. Jim Hardee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charles Courtin?? Date: 14 Oct 1998 00:04:12 EDT Kurt, As David Mullen said, Hafen's "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West," Vol. III conatins a biography of David Thompson that mentions the same infor regarding Courter as the Nisbit inof you already have. This article is by Alvin Josephy and the paragraph footnotes another book by Josephy titled "The Nez Perce Indians and the Opening of the Northwest," page 46, and 660-63. It is not clear that this refernece pertains to Courter but if your local library has the Nez Perce book, you may find a lead. Moulton's "The Journals of Lews and Clark" also mentions Courtin in Vol. 2 (very briefly) and 3. Moulton cites Donald Jackson's "The letters of the Lewis and Clark Expedition," pg. 2 & 437n; Ernest Osgood's "The Field notes of Captain William Clark," pg. 136n & 6; and the same Josephy "Nez Perce" book mentioned above. Moulton refers to Courtin "apparently" reaching the Three Forks and western Montana. Vol. 8 of Moulton has a fair amount more on pages 158n, 288, 289n, 360 and 360n but the same references as above are noted. Looks like Lewis and Clark ran into him on the way west (Sept 14 and 15, 1804) and several times on the way back. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 13 Oct 1998 21:08:35 +0000 Gail, I do not fill the gourds all the way. I pour some in and swish it around, repeat until satisfied. There was a letter in hereawhile ago, and it sounded like the fellow filled, then emptied. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux Date: 13 Oct 1998 21:32:31 -0700 Jim: Sorry for butting in but can you give more details on the fur trade event in Stockton next April that you mentioned? Is this the same event that was in Pinedale, WY couple years ago? Gail Carbiener ============================================= -----Original Message----- >John, > >I posted the following to your personal e-mail but it bounced back. > >How's the house? Surely the roof's on by now. Will you make it by winter? >It's getting closer and closer? What else is new? All's well here. > >Saw your post about Robidoux. There's a biography of him in Hafen's Mountain >Men and the Fur Trade, Vol. VIII, (written by David Weber) as well as another >dozen or so entries throughout the series. David Weber writes quite a bit >about him in "The Taos Trapper." (By the way, Weber is the keynote speaker >for the fur trade symposium coming up in Stockton this April) He crops up here >and there in various other sources but those two may be the most extensive, >especially the Hafen article. Let me know if you want copies of these. If >the list turns up anyting that looks goo, let me know and if I've got it on >the shelf, I can send copies of that too. > >Jim Hardee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ceran St. Vrain Date: 14 Oct 1998 01:51:03 EDT YEP thats me........I have been researching the St Vrains and Ceran for the family for about two years now. Been hitting St. Louis, all over New Mexico and Colorado.....hope to go to New Orleans......email me at EmmaPeel2@aol.com and let me know what you are looking for. I have a reprint of Paul St Vrains article :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: North American Voyageur Council Date: 14 Oct 1998 08:00:24 -0500 For any one interested in the North American Voyageur Council, our group is hoisting the fall gathering. I have put to gether a webpage at my site, URL is: http://reality.sgi.com/jal/navc/navc.html Jim /`-_ Jim Lindberg |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue |Flambeau Rivere Voyageurs \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal/ |Until we next meete. Go Gentle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 14 Oct 1998 08:56:36 -0600 (CST) >To all: > Do I understand you correctly that when you wax gourds that you "fill it >up to the top" with melted wax, then pour it out, repeat a couple of times? >Rather than swirl the wax. >Gail Carbiener I've done it both ways, but I found that filling and pouring assures that all inner surfaces are covered. Rotate as you pour so you cover all the inner surfaces near the opening. I usually fill and pour three times. That's the method that works for me. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list Date: 14 Oct 1998 08:01:16 -0600 Terry, Yes, freezing them is okay. I've done that if I buy the brains and = can't use them right away. Haven't seen any difference from tanning solution made = from fresh brains. I don't know about the shelf-life (freezer-life) of prepared brain = solution. I've always used it as soon as it cools. I've heard others say reuse = the solution, but I don't do more than one hide at a time, and at sometimes great intervals, so I don't save the solution once I've softened the = hide sufficiently. Hope this helps a little Red Coyote > ---------- > From: Terry Landis > ok real quick like, if you brain tan with cow brains can you freeze = them > before use? also how long will a tan sol. keep? > =A0Terry Landis >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 24 Sep 1998 03:18:38 -0500 --------------427ACD31FC5B59E77CBEDE04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PDS Golf Course wrote: > John, > I'd like to know more on the Scots in the Fur Trade as well. Can you keep > me up on what you find, I'll do the same. > Jon Bollin AMM #1639 Sure thing. Heh. Can't go wrong with an AMM on your side. Anyway, so far some of the more helpful/reliable stuff I've found includes: Sketchbook 56, Vol. I - Rogers Rangers By: Ted Spring Sketchbook 56, Vol. III - The Highlanders & provincial Rangers By: Ted Spring The Scots By: Linda Byrd The Scottish Clans & Their Tartans. 1896. 41st ed. Johnston & Bacon Ltd. Edinburgh & London. (I've only been able to find this one at libraries, but it's worth a read.) The Men-At-Arms series has Highland Clansman 1689-1746 & 18th Century Highlanders, it's a little early for the period, but they still have some relevant information & some great illustrations. The History Channel did a movie entitled Battle of the Clans ...I think. Most of the show covered early eras & the Jacobite revolution, but it was still a great show. & I've found a few web sites that were pretty good, but they didn't have anything more than general information, or stuff that I already knew. If you're interested in the addresses, let me know & I'll see if I can find them. ...I was beginning to think I was the only guy interested in this subject. Nice to know there's other folks out there that're interested too. John David Scott ...or as everyone except my mother calls me, Turtle --------------427ACD31FC5B59E77CBEDE04 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PDS Golf Course wrote:
John,
I'd like to know more on the Scots in the Fur Trade as well.  Can you keep
me up on what you find, I'll do the same.
Jon Bollin  AMM #1639
 

Sure thing.  Heh.  Can't go wrong with an AMM on your side.  Anyway, so far some of the more helpful/reliable stuff I've found includes:
 
    Sketchbook 56, Vol. I  -  Rogers Rangers
        By: Ted Spring
    Sketchbook 56, Vol. III - The Highlanders & provincial Rangers
        By: Ted Spring
    The Scots
        By:  Linda Byrd
    The Scottish Clans & Their Tartans.  1896.  41st ed.
        Johnston & Bacon Ltd.  Edinburgh & London.
        (I've only been able to find this one at libraries, but it's worth a read.)

    The Men-At-Arms series has Highland Clansman 1689-1746 & 18th Century Highlanders, it's a little early for the period, but they still have some relevant information & some great illustrations.

    The History Channel did a movie entitled Battle of the Clans ...I think.  Most of the show covered early eras & the Jacobite revolution, but it was still a great show.

    & I've found a few web sites that were pretty good, but they didn't have anything more than general information, or stuff that I already knew.  If you're interested in the addresses, let me know & I'll see if I can find them.

    ...I was beginning to think I was the only guy interested in this subject.  Nice to know there's other folks out there that're interested too.
 
 
    John David Scott
        ...or as everyone except my mother calls me,
    Turtle
 
 
 
  --------------427ACD31FC5B59E77CBEDE04-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list Date: 14 Oct 1998 07:28:47 -0700 > ok real quick like, if you brain tan with cow brains can you freeze >them before use? also how long will a tan sol. keep? Terry Landis Yes you can freeze the brains. We buy ours in bulk at $1.69 per pound. They are packaged individually which makes it convenient. Also keep in mind that once you have started your hide you can also freeze it during any stage and take it out and start up again at that same step. Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ceran St. Vrain Date: 14 Oct 1998 10:58:25 +0000 Hi Emma, Saw you have been researching St. Vrains. On my http://www.Colorado-Mall.com web site in the Historical Section I have a spot reserved for the St. Vrain Fort which was located about 20 miles from my residence. If you have any info on it and would like to write up an article or send me the info to write about the fort I sure would appreciate it. Then I could get that fort section up and running. Thanks in advance, Joe Miller -- Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome! To be Happy, Joyous and Free Joseph Miller, Webmaster http://www.Colorado-Mall.com For information on leasing mall space E-mail: leasing@Colorado-Mall.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 14 Oct 1998 10:14:09 -0700 Gail, My 2 bits on this, I've had some small experience growing and making water gourds and I found years ago that one needs to be careful that your bees wax/parafin is hot enough when it goes into the gourd to penetrate the walls of the gourd a bit. It is also important that you not get too much wax inside or you run the risk of the wax pealing off, which you will know is happening if you have little sheets of wax coming out in the water. It is VERY IMPORTANT to get all the inner flesh out of the gourd before you proceed with the waxing since this can be the cause of, and impart the bad taste that can develop in some gourds. When I am removing the flesh, after shaking out as much seed etc. as possible, I fill the gourd with water for a day or so until the flesh starts to get a bit slimy and then the flesh seems to flush out quit completely. It's kind of like hairing hides and you have to be about as careful to avoid spoilage as you would doing hides, not quit but almost as careful. I then will let the gourd dry very thoroughly and proceed with the waxing. A couple of good washes with hot wax seems to do the trick. It is not necessary to fill the gourd with wax, maybe less than a quarter full will do. Pour in the hot wax, put in the cork and CAREFULLY rotate the gourd to coat all inner surfaces. Hot wax may try to squirt out around the cork thus the caution to be carful. Finally pour off the wax back into your heating container to be used on the next one. A final couple of safety points. Wax can be harmful to your lungs, especially Bee's wax so it is a good idea to wear a dust mask or better yet do the wax heating job out side so as not to concentrate the fumes that will be given off. Use gloves, let the gourd get very hot and don't let the wax puddle in the bottom. The gourd may need to be freshened up in a season or two but just make sure it is dry and repeat the waxing procedure. Added to what else has been offered by others, I hope this helps and I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote: > Gail, I do not fill the gourds all the way. I pour some in and swish it > around, repeat until satisfied. There was a letter in hereawhile ago, > and it sounded like the fellow filled, then emptied. Hardtack > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Symposium Date: 15 Oct 1998 00:04:43 EDT Gail, The Jedediah Smith Society and the John Muir Center for Regional Studies are sponsoring the 51st California History Institue Conference on April 23-25, 1999, at the University of the Pacific in Stockton, CA. The title is "Jedediah Smith and the Fur Trade Era." While it is not the same as what was in Pinedale, it will be quite similar. The keynote speaker is David Weber, author of "Taos Trappers" and "Californios vs. Jedediah Smith." Proposal for research papers will be acepted until Nov. 15, 1998. If you have a paper to submit, send it to Program Committee, Professor Ron Limbaugh, Department of History, University of the Pacific, Stockton, CA 95211. Phone is (209)946-2895, e-mail is johnmuir@uop.edu. Let me know if I can help you out in any other wat regarding the symposium. Hope to see you (and others from this list) there! Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) 9530)283-5171 FAX CAsapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list Date: 14 Oct 1998 21:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Yes Terry, you can freeze them and use them anytime. I have has some from about a year ago and they were fine when I defrosted them recently. If you need any help braintanning, just drop me a line; I've done a bit. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list Date: 15 Oct 1998 17:47:38 EDT To change the subject but are there any record that anyone knows of, a female trapper/mountain man during this era. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: glonjon1@juno.com (John C. Funk) Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Louis Robidoux Date: 13 Oct 1998 18:13:48 -0700 You're right. It is info on Louis R. and not Antoine I'm hunting for. Specifically, was Louis ever married? If so (and I suspect he was) to whom and when? I do know that he spent most of his life from about 1840 something until his death in ? in what is now San bernardino County, CA, and was one of the first of that County's Supervisors. Much is written about both Louis and Antoine, but I can't find a record of Louis' marriage or death date. If you have any info to shed some light on this I'd sure appreciate it! - Many thanks - John's dad, also John C. Funk --------- Forwarded message ---------- Message-ID: <19981013.165729.3974.2.j2hearts@juno.com> --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- Message-ID: <25428db5.3622bacc@aol.com> In a message dated 98-10-12 02:26:10 EDT, you write: << If you would like information about Mr. Robidoux, you might want to contact Dan Deuter at Ft. Uncompaghre in Delta Colorado. The phone number of the Fort is (970) 874-8349. This is good information, but it's for Antoine. I thought John was looking for info on Louis. From what I've read of Antoine, when he closed Ft Uncompagre, he returned to Missouri instead of going to California like Louis evidently did. Maybe Antoine DID wind up being the Robidoux John is looking for, but it was my understanding Antoine wound up in St Joseph Mo where there's a hotel named for him -- or there used to be. NM --------- End forwarded message ---------- ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 13 Oct 1998 20:03:11 -0700 MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote: I am just getting started and am looking for good resource material > for the Scottish during the French Indian War & more specifically on > those that went mountain man afterwards. Any suggestions? > > I think we have a slight timing problem here. The French and Indian War was in the late 1750s and the mountain man period, at its earliest really didn't get going until after Lewis and Clark returned. Now if you were 20 years old and fighting with George Washington at Ft. Ligonier in 1758 and then helped recapture Ft. Duquesne (Ft. Pitt) from the French and Indians and then mustered out a year or so later, you would be one old mountain man by 1807. Like about 69 years old. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GMG9@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: making snowshoes Date: 14 Oct 1998 05:56:21 EDT Dear Sir, I am looking around tonight for information on making my own snowshoes and hit on your site. Is it possible you can tell me how. I would appreciate any help you can give me. Thank you, Georgia gmg9 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds Date: 14 Oct 1998 19:02:30 -0700 Be advised to have a towel or some hot pads handy. The gourds get really hot when filled with molten parafin. To hot to hold with bare hands in most cases. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 15 Oct 1998 05:38:41 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BDF7FE.113E6EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jon read everything that you can on the HBC and you will get your fill of Scots and bagpipes, I volunteer at Ft Langley and Ft Nisqually and a weekend of pipes and Scottish bog is lasting for weeks. Later Jon T ---------- : From: PDS Golf Course : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish : Date: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 4:09 PM : : John, : I'd like to know more on the Scots in the Fur Trade as well. Can you keep : me up on what you find, I'll do the same. : Jon Bollin AMM #1639 : : MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote: : : > Hello to the list: : > : > I am just getting started and am looking for good resource material : > for the Scottish during the French Indian War & more specifically on : > those that went mountain man afterwards. Any suggestions? : > : > Also, what research I've done suggests that they'd have made cuarans : > after their shoes wore out in the mountains, but I can't find an picture : > references or patterns. Can anyone help? : > : > Thanks : > : > John David Scott : : : : ------=_NextPart_000_01BDF7FE.113E6EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jon read everything that you can on the = HBC and you will get your fill of Scots and bagpipes,  I volunteer = at Ft Langley and Ft Nisqually and a weekend of pipes and Scottish bog = is lasting for weeks.  Later Jon T

----------
: From: PDS = Golf Course <pdscc@theriver.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish
: Date: = Tuesday, October 13, 1998 4:09 PM
:
: John,
: I'd like to know = more on the Scots in the Fur Trade as well.  Can you keep
: me = up on what you find, I'll do the same.
: Jon Bollin  AMM = #1639
:
: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote:
:
: > Hello to the list:
: = >
: >     I am just getting started and am = looking for good resource material
: > for the Scottish during the = French Indian War & more specifically on
: > those that went = mountain man afterwards.  Any suggestions?
: >
: > =     Also, what research I've done suggests that = they'd have made cuarans
: > after their shoes wore out in the = mountains, but I can't find an picture
: > references or patterns. =  Can anyone help?
: >
: > Thanks
: >
: > = John David Scott
:
:
:
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BDF7FE.113E6EA0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Singer" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux Date: 13 Oct 1998 23:56:38 -0600 >From the book "Fort Uncompahgre" by William McCrea Bailey: "Louis Robidoux, born two years after Antoine, in 1796, would be of great assistance to his brother Antoine. His deep involvement in the Santa Fe trade began with his naturalization as a Mexican citizen on the same day as his brother Antoine. The paperwork was completed in Santa Fe, July 16, 1823." Cited source for this paragraph: "Memorial to the Robidoux Brothers" by Orral Robidoux. Published by Smith Greaves, Kansas City, 1924 Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" WWW Rendezvous Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 -----Original Message----- >NM > >Your right. I am looking for (later life) information on Louis Robidoux, >during the time frame when he relocated to California. But, any >information may lead to more details elsewhere. > >John Funk > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll Date: 15 Oct 1998 23:37:21 -0700 opened up my oven and found some of the hard tack in the tray it still tasted good .ill try to give lanney keepsake biscuits to the list if i can find the recipe. we need to start makin hard tack for the winter. iron tongue Sam Keller wrote: > A trick we used to use when I was a kid (3 days before dirt). Wash > yore convas in hot water with a 1/2 cup of alum per gallon of water. > Will shrink the weave of yore canvas and make it more water repellent. > > ---"Thomas W. Roberts" wrote: > > > > Making a couple bedrolls. Outer layer is 12oz canvas. Inner layer is > > cotton cloth. When laid open, size is about 60" x 90". Planning to > > stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for those > > cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg. Either way, it's something > > simple to wrap up in with enough length to tuck under our feet. My > > question: Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing to > > repel moisture and yet remain pliable? I've sampled wax (no good), > > linseed oil (soft until it dries two weeks later), and tung oil > (hard as > > a rock). I suppose I could Scotchgard or Duck's Back but it just > > wouldn't be right. Any thoughts? > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 16 Oct 1998 00:15:30 -0700 (PDT) > MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote: > I am just getting started and am looking for good resource material > > for the Scottish during the French Indian War & more specifically on > > those that went mountain man afterwards. Any suggestions? On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Dennis Fisher wrote: > I think we have a slight timing problem here. The French and Indian War was > in the late 1750s and the mountain man period, at its earliest really > didn't get going until after Lewis and Clark returned. Actually Dennis, your partially correct, the american Rocky Mountain Furtrade dates to after Lewis and Clark, however, the American Fur Trade dates back to Champlain in the early 1600's. The Northwest Company, which picked up the pieces of the french fur trade in the later 1700's and was chock full of Scots, as was the HBC. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "T.A. Terry" Subject: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 07:41:10 -0400 I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to do this? Thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grantd9@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 09:07:36 EDT The "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear," by George M. White is an excellent reference. It shows how to make about 25 different styles of mocassins including two patterns for the hard sole type. It is available through James Townsend and Son (www.jastown.com). Grant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Farabee Subject: Re: MtMan-List: making snowshoes Date: 16 Oct 1998 06:41:22 -0700 GMG9@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Sir, > > I am looking around tonight for information on making my own snowshoes and hit > on your site. Is it possible you can tell me how. I would appreciate any > help you can give me. > Thank you, > Georgia > gmg9 A book by David Montgomery titled Mountain Crafts and Skills ,published by Horizon Publishers; PO Box 490, Bountiful, Utah 84010 has directions. Pages 83 & 84. Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Farabee Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 06:54:36 -0700 T.A. Terry wrote: > > I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any > suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to > do this? > > Thanks I don't know if this is of any help. The Apache style moc does have a harder sole than the Plains type moc. A book by David Montgomery, Mountain Crafts and Skills gives directions for them on pp 60-66. The book is published by Horizon Publishers, P.O.Box 490, Bountiful, Utah 84010. The ISbn number is 0-88290-156-7 in case a library could help. The company order number 12 1224. Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 07:53:00 -0600 T. A., Another good method (besides White) is found in the newer,larger edition of 'The Indian Tipi' by the Laubins. This edition has some great info that the smaller paperback does not contain for some reason. Mr. Laubin gives a concise written and illustrated method that worked well for me the first time I tried it. Believe me, some ways I've seen and tried do not result in a wearable pair of moccasins. If you can't find this book or want some other specific info, mail me off-line. Red Coyote Louis.L.Sickler@lmco.com > ---------- > From: T.A. Terry > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 05:41 > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: plains moccasins > > I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any > suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to > do this? > > Thanks > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 09:54:07 EDT In a message dated 10/16/98 6:42:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time, snowcamp@emji.net writes: << I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to do this? >> Crazy Crow sells a kit, everthing there with instructions. I got this kit first time around. Materials were not bad, but the soles were latigo not rawhide which would last longer, but they looked pretty good when done. If you get this kit and put it together first time around you will be able to just jump right in and build another pair after that. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Female fur trader of the time. Date: 16 Oct 1998 08:10:10 -0700 >To change the subject but are there any record that anyone knows of, a female >trapper/mountain man during this era. There was an Indian woman, not sure of which tribe, who traveled from the interior down the Columbia to Fort Astoria and traded furs etc along the way. Wether she trapped I do not know. She was refered to as Man Like Woman because she, I assume from what I have read about her, was a lesbian. Lesbian or not, if she did "walk the walk" and "talk the talk" of a fur trader of the time, then she participated in the trade. She reportedly traveled to the interior ahead of some white traders and prepared the people along the way, telling them of all the whites had to offer. She frequented the fur posts of the interior and as a result of her less than European Moral conduct was sent from post to post carrying "important messages" which served only to get her out of the immediate area. She amassed much wealth before she died as well as from what I have read became a cheif of her people. Jon Towns can refer you to the book which tells of her "adventures" From journals it also seems she traveled with the David Thompson party at some point, being the woman of one of his servants. (post lesbian era?) David got so disgusted with her actions he insisted his servant send her on her way, which I believe he did. My writtings were deliberately trashed, not by myself, about a year ago and my T&LRs are all packed away in anticipation of a move which never developed. So I am afraid that my less than photographic memory fails me now and I can not be more specific. Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: making snowshoes Date: 16 Oct 1998 05:33:24 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BDF8C6.7E7EE3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well I don't know who you addressed this to but you got me for one. Go to the library and look up Ben Hunt books I am not sure which book has them in it, and he had some you could build without to much trouble. Later Jon T. ---------- : From: GMG9@aol.com : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: making snowshoes : Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 2:56 AM : : : : : : Dear Sir, : : I am looking around tonight for information on making my own snowshoes and hit : on your site. Is it possible you can tell me how. I would appreciate any : help you can give me. : Thank you, : Georgia : gmg9 : ------=_NextPart_000_01BDF8C6.7E7EE3A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well I don't know who you addressed = this to but you got me for one.  Go to the library and look up Ben = Hunt books I am not sure which book has them in it, and he had some you = could build without to much trouble.  Later Jon T. =

----------
: From: GMG9@aol.com
: To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: making snowshoes
: Date: = Wednesday, October 14, 1998 2:56 AM
:
:
:
:
:
: = Dear Sir,
:
: I am looking around tonight for information on = making my own snowshoes and hit
: on your site.  Is it possible = you can tell me how.  I would appreciate any
: help you can give = me.
: Thank you,
: Georgia
: gmg9
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BDF8C6.7E7EE3A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charles Courtin?? Date: 16 Oct 1998 09:09:52 -0600 >>A quick search in _The Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West_ Volume III, Page 328, David Thompson biography, Alvin M. Josephy author, has the following quote: "In February, Thompson also noted the slaying by Blackfeet at the nearby site of present day Dixon, Montana, of an American hunter named Courter, who was probably Charles Courtin..".<< Josephy differs with an earlier guess at the identity of "Courter", so I thought I'd include some more background info. In David Thompson's _Narrative_ (Glover ed., p. 302-303), Thompson wrote: "On the evening of the 24th [Jan., 1810] the Indians informed me, that the Peeagans had attacked a hunting party, killed Mr. Courter (a trader and Hunter from the U States) and one Indian, and wounded several others...On the 26th in the afternoon [we] came to twenty one Tents of Saleesh Indians, who received us with their usual kindness; they seemed to think that the imprudence of Mr. Courter, in going on the War Grounds, with a small party to hunt the Bison and set traps for the Beaver, which were numerous, was the cause of his death; and the accidents to the Indians; during my time the Traders and Hunters from the United States were most unfortunate, there seemed to be an infatuation over them, that the Natives of the Plains were all skulkers in the woods, and never dared shew themselves on open ground, and they suffered accordingly being frequently attacked in open ground and killed by the Peeagans until none remained." In a footnote, T.C. Elliott states "The nearest approach to this name [Mr. Courter] among American trappers on the headwaters of the Missouri river at that time is that of John Colter, a member of the Lewis and Clark expedition, whose remarkable experiences are related in Chittenden, _History of the American Fur Trade_, Chapter X. Colter, however, was not actually killed by the Blackfeet. For the story of several attacks by the Blackfeet during the winter and spring of 1810 at the Three Forks of the Missouri, see Chittenden, Chapter VI, and Coues, _New Light_, p. 674, note. Here is the relevant part of Coues' very lengthy note on p. 674: "One of these [trips by David Thompson from Saleesh House], Feb. 23d to Mar. 6th, 1810, was to find rind for canoes, to trade, etc. Mousseau, Forcier, Boulard, and two Indians went with him. On this trip he learned of the death of Mr. Courter? Coaster? at Saleesh _camp_ (not at Saleesh _house_), and went to that camp to see about it." (emphasis Coues') Hope this helps--but maybe it just muddies the waters?! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 11:50:18 -0400 One of the best tapes on making Plains type mocs came out a year ago. It is the best I have seen on how to make good fitting foot ware. I have read all the books and seen all the articles, of which the ones published in Whispering Wind Mag. are among the best and most detailed of any of the books from Laubin to David Montgomery. Give me a call on the net and I will send information on how to get it. It is also on the Native tech sight in their Magazine section for Whispering Wind. Linda Holley Gary Farabee wrote: > T.A. Terry wrote: > > > > I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any > > suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to > > do this? > > > > Thanks > I don't know if this is of any help. The Apache style moc does have a > harder sole than the Plains type moc. A book by David Montgomery, > Mountain Crafts and Skills gives directions for them on pp 60-66. The > book is published by Horizon Publishers, P.O.Box 490, Bountiful, Utah > 84010. > > The ISbn number is 0-88290-156-7 in case a library could help. The > company order number 12 1224. > Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Reading Material Date: 16 Oct 1998 12:11:13 EDT Ho the list. I am planning, already, for a long wet winter here in the NW and would like a list of the top five "must read" books on Mountain Men and the Fur Trade. I've read Bridger, Osborne Russell, Bonneville, Playboy, Meek, and Parkman to mention a few.... Will be interesting to see how the "top five" develops. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: making snowshoes and hardening fire steels Date: 16 Oct 1998 09:26:59 -0700 Georgia, I built a pair of snow shoes a few years ago for a friend using 'W. Ben Hunts' , "The Complete How-To Book of IndeanCraft". It is about the clearest directions I've ever seen and I'm sure if you followed the directions you could make a fine pair of snow shoes. He also has directions in the book for toboggans and other primitive winter gear like snow goggles. The webbing is the most complicated part of the process and his directions on how to string the rawhide is almost fool proof. The book is/was published by Collier Books of Macmillan Publishing Co,Inc. I don't think you should have any problem finding it. I paid $2.95 and it is probably double that now at least. For our Norwegian friend, just heat the steel to a cherry red and quench in water or oil and it should spark. Maybe some of the metallurgists on the list will have some other advice too? I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' GMG9@aol.com wrote: > Dear Sir, > > I am looking around tonight for information on making my own snowshoes and hit > on your site. Is it possible you can tell me how. I would appreciate any > help you can give me. > Thank you, > Georgia > gmg9 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 09:49:42 -0700 Try " Craft Manual of North American Indian footwear" by George M. White, at "P.O. Box 365, Ronan, Montana 59864. Or any good book seller at Rendezvous and many of the Cataloge dealers in Muzzleloading. T.A. Terry wrote: > I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any > suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to > do this? > > Thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 09:46:32 -0700 Try "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear" by George M. White, P.O. Box 365, Ronan, Montana 59864. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' T.A. Terry wrote: > I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any > suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to > do this? > > Thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material Date: 16 Oct 1998 10:04:20 -0700 Steve: Two of my favorites............. 1. Broken Hand: The Life of Thomas Fitzpatrick, Mountain Man, Guide, and Indian Agent by Leroy Hafen. You can get it in paperback. It is unbelievable how many important places Fitzpatrick was in his life. I'm sure there will be arguments, but he may have been the most important American mountain man! 2. The Snake Country Expedition of 1830-1831; John Work's Field Journal. Edited by Francis Haines, Jr. published by Univ of Oklahoma Press. This is a journal of an early HBC winter brigade, lets you know how different HBC was from the Americans on the other side of the Rockies. Gail Carbiener ============================================ -----Original Message----- >Ho the list. >I am planning, already, for a long wet winter here in the NW and would like a >list of the top five "must read" books on Mountain Men and the Fur Trade. I've >read Bridger, Osborne Russell, Bonneville, Playboy, Meek, and Parkman to >mention a few.... Will be interesting to see how the "top five" develops. >Steve > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 10:19:01 -0700 I ordered the Crazy Crow Northern Plains Moc. kit and I had a terrible time with interpreting their instruction sheet for creating the pattern. It produced a terribly ill fit side seam moc.. The leather looked great, a tan-gray chrome tan cowhide, will make nice mocs, I have another kit on order. I also couldn't use the tiny needle they sent (they didn't suggest an awl, but I sure would, and a star wheel to space the stitching). I had a dear friend re-create the pattern (evolved through five stages of 'improvements'), and now I have the most wonderful side seam pattern. It fits my wide foot, (with a half inch wool felt boot liner under my foot -- I'm rather a tenderfoot). It has the side seam running from inside about the first knuckle of my big toe, straight around the front and straight up the side nicely below the ankle, meeting the vertical seam, which she adjusted to run up the middle of the back, from the flap behind the heel straight up to the top. She also invested a lot of trials in getting the cut for the opening in the top to lie straight and end in the right place. In short, she invested a bunch of time fitting this, and the results are dynamite, but I don't expect many folks to happen upon the right pattern directly from the instructions, nor would I suggest that you commit your good leather to the first try on any you copy out of a book. I suggest that before you attack the leather in your Crazy Crow kit, or any other, you make a stitched together pattern of suitable fabric (or maybe skin out a couple of Nauga -- check with Hawk Pierce if you need more, he tells me that he has a ready supply), and get the rascal to fit your foot the way you want. You need to be standing straight on the floor when the pattern is fitted too, because your foot spreads out a lot when you put weight on it, so I suggest that you get someone who is experienced at fitting fabric or leather to actually make the adjustments to the pattern on your foot. The side seam appears to be the devil's own pattern at this point, with the two piece and center seam/toe pucker patterns very much easier to fit, but when done well, the side seam looks and feels absolutely terrific. I would be pleased to share a paper tracing of my pattern with any who want it. Contact me off list with a direct email, and provide a full address, and I will gladly trace my 11 1/2 EEE - with felt insole pattern, you could modify it to suit. It would make a fine starting place for the fitting session described. Grateful thanks to Ladyhawk in Idaho for working out the pattern from my clumsy attempt at the kit. YMHOS Gary Bell LODGEPOLE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/16/98 6:42:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time, > snowcamp@emji.net writes: > > << I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any > suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to > do this? >> > > Crazy Crow sells a kit, everthing there with instructions. I got this kit > first time around. Materials were not bad, but the soles were latigo not > rawhide which would last longer, but they looked pretty good when done. If you > get this kit and put it together first time around you will be able to just > jump right in and build another pair after that. > > Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 15:23:49 EDT In a message dated 10/16/98 12:20:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time, micropt@gte.net writes: << I ordered the Crazy Crow Northern Plains Moc. kit and I had a terrible time with interpreting their instruction sheet for creating the pattern. It produced a terribly ill fit side seam moc.. The leather looked great, a tan-gray chrome tan cowhide, will make nice mocs, -----------(stuff deleted)----------- >> Well I admit the directions took considerable thought before beginning work but mine came out great first time around. Also, the kit I oredered was not the kit with cowhide leather, thay make one that comes with the latigo for the soles and gold colored buckskin for the uppers which after a few outtings dulled to a good color. The directions show you how to make the templates which i did using light cardboard for the soles such as you find some new articles of clothing like shirts wrapped around, and typical grocery store brown paper bag for the uppers. You can save thgese for the next pair and save that part of the work the second time around. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 16 Oct 1998 18:44:43 -0500 On 1998-10-16 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net >X-Sender: lnewbill@buzzard.csrv.uidaho.edu >> MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote: >> I am just getting started and am looking for good resource >>material > for the Scottish during the French Indian War & more >>specifically on > those that went mountain man afterwards. Any >suggestions? >On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Dennis Fisher wrote: >> I think we have a slight timing problem here. The French and >>Indian War was in the late 1750s and the mountain man period, at >>its earliest really didn't get going until after Lewis and Clark >returned. >Actually Dennis, your partially correct, the american Rocky Mountain >Furtrade dates to after Lewis and Clark, however, the American Fur >Trade dates back to Champlain in the early 1600's. The Northwest >Company, which picked up the pieces of the french fur trade in the >later 1700's and was chock full of Scots, as was the HBC. "Chock full of Scots"? Booshway you mean,right? And lets not forget that the "Northwest" as it was considered then was Michigan,Wisconsin,etc. not exactly the Rocky Mountains. Before the British Victory in the F&I War I doubt that there were any Scots in the trade,except occaisional traders east of the Mississippi and not much farther north than the Ohio. The fur trade that became the era of the "Rocky Mountain Trapper" was the result of beaver being driven west and up into the mountains,after nearly 200 years of being hunted for his pelt. Now lets see what other wildlife was pushed to the west, Buffalo and Elk to name a couple. Elk and Buffalo were seen by early Jesuits as far east as what is now Green Bay,Wisconsin and possibly farther east to Detroit. Lets try to remember that the Rocky Mountain Trapper was the end of the fur trade,not the glory days that it has come to be thought of,it was the last hurrah before the porkeaters(a term much older than the mountain trapper) settled the continent. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night! Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 17:57:42 -0700 (PDT) On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 Grantd9@aol.com wrote: > The "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear," by George M. White is an > excellent reference. Tis a good book. I just finished my wife's Salish (Flathead) sideseams and they came out great. It can be a bit confusing at first because he groups certain details that are common to all moccs in seperate sections of the book, but once you've read and understand it, it's even simple enough for this ol Army guy. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 24 Sep 1998 17:13:38 -0500 Terry, You might look for Mystic Warriors of the Plains. Most of the stuff is Reservation period, but there are good line drawings of several styles The Mystic Warriors of the Plains Thomas E. Mails Mallard Press copyright 1972,1991 chapter 17; pgs 25, 210, 283, 326-356 Chases Hawks T.A. Terry wrote: > I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any > suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to > do this? > > Thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PDS Golf Course Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material Date: 16 Oct 1998 17:28:21 -0700 My vote is Crow Killer, you gotta read it! Jon Bollin AMM #1639 SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Ho the list. > I am planning, already, for a long wet winter here in the NW and would like a > list of the top five "must read" books on Mountain Men and the Fur Trade. I've > read Bridger, Osborne Russell, Bonneville, Playboy, Meek, and Parkman to > mention a few.... Will be interesting to see how the "top five" develops. > Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Janzen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins & Introduction Date: 16 Oct 1998 21:25:36 -0400 TA~ Try "The Indian Tipi; it's history, construction and use" by Reginald & Gladys Laubin (University of Oklahoma Press). Not only will you learn a WHOLE lot about Tipis, he has a great recipe for sturdy, well-fitting hard sole mocs. Out in the desert (Mojave) I made the sole out of 9oz. and stitched on an extra 9oz. sole onto that - in the interest of keeping the prickly flora & fauna out of the bottoms of my feet. This has worked very well. It's also easier to fix when the second layer wears out. Since this is my first post, I'll introduce myself. I am interested in the 1810-1820 Upper Missouri/East slope fur trade and the 1820-1830 Southern Rockies/Santa Fe trade. I have been doing this for about four years. I am in the Army and was stationed in the Mojave desert for the last three years and now find myself in Northern Virginia for the next year or so. Lots of F&I war and Revolutionary folks here, but I haven't found any Western Mountain Man types to hang out with. If any of you all are in the area, please contact me offline. I haven't stayed in one place long enough to begin the AMM process, but eventually would like to. My introduction to AMM was from the most generous and helpful Jerry Zaslow, who held my hand through my first 'vous in Sespe, CA. Many Thanks, Jerry. I've been resident on Bob Spencer's Muzzleloader Mailing list for about three years. I've also been reading Dean Rudy's page for about that long (Thanks, Dean - yoeman's work there!). Finally decided to sign up on this list to find some kindred spirits out my way. I go by 'Kid' (just Kid), my name is Scott Janzen. Jerry can explain why Kid if necessary! Kid! -----Original Message----- >I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any >suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to >do this? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 16 Oct 1998 19:39:24 -0700 please send me info iron tongue Linda Holley wrote: > One of the best tapes on making Plains type mocs came out a year ago. It is > the best I have seen on how to make good fitting foot ware. I have read all > the books and seen all the articles, of which the ones published in > Whispering Wind Mag. are among the best and most detailed of any of the > books from Laubin to David Montgomery. Give me a call on the net and I will > send information on how to get it. It is also on the Native tech sight in > their Magazine section for Whispering Wind. > > Linda Holley > > Gary Farabee wrote: > > > T.A. Terry wrote: > > > > > > I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any > > > suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to > > > do this? > > > > > > Thanks > > I don't know if this is of any help. The Apache style moc does have a > > harder sole than the Plains type moc. A book by David Montgomery, > > Mountain Crafts and Skills gives directions for them on pp 60-66. The > > book is published by Horizon Publishers, P.O.Box 490, Bountiful, Utah > > 84010. > > > > The ISbn number is 0-88290-156-7 in case a library could help. The > > company order number 12 1224. > > Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material Date: 16 Oct 1998 19:52:05 -0700 men to match my mountains by riving stone the opening of the far west,1840-1900 bring me men to match my mountains, bring me men to match my plains, men with empires in their purpose and new eras in their brains. sam foss Gail Carbiener wrote: > Steve: > Two of my favorites............. > 1. Broken Hand: The Life of Thomas Fitzpatrick, Mountain Man, Guide, and > Indian Agent by Leroy Hafen. You can get it in paperback. It is unbelievable > how many important places Fitzpatrick was in his life. I'm sure there will > be arguments, but he may have been the most important American mountain man! > 2. The Snake Country Expedition of 1830-1831; John Work's Field Journal. > Edited by Francis Haines, Jr. published by Univ of Oklahoma Press. This is a > journal of an early HBC winter brigade, lets you know how different HBC was > from the Americans on the other side of the Rockies. > Gail Carbiener > ============================================ > > -----Original Message----- > From: SWcushing@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Friday, October 16, 1998 9:20 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Reading Material > > >Ho the list. > >I am planning, already, for a long wet winter here in the NW and would like > a > >list of the top five "must read" books on Mountain Men and the Fur Trade. > I've > >read Bridger, Osborne Russell, Bonneville, Playboy, Meek, and Parkman to > >mention a few.... Will be interesting to see how the "top five" develops. > >Steve > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 16 Oct 1998 20:08:01 -0700 Lee Newbill wrote: > > MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote: > > I am just getting started and am looking for good resource material > > > for the Scottish during the French Indian War & more specifically on > > > those that went mountain man afterwards. Any suggestions? > > Actually Dennis, your partially correct, the american Rocky Mountain > Furtrade dates to after Lewis and Clark, however, the American Fur Trade > dates back to Champlain in the early 1600's. The Northwest Company, which > picked up the pieces of the french fur trade in the later 1700's and was > chock full of Scots, as was the HBC. > I know how far back the fur trade goes on this continent but when you said "went mountain man" I assumed you were using the term to mean those trappers who went to the Rocky Mountains. Since this list is devoted primarily to Mountain Men of the Rocky Mountain fur trade I guess I jumped to conclusions a little too quick. All that being said, I never heard of fur trappers who worked the Great Lakes area, Hudson's Bay, or even the Canadian Rockies for the HBC or the NWC referred to as mountain men. Maybe Angela has some source material on the subject. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Ceran St. Vrain Date: 16 Oct 1998 22:10:09 -0600 >From: "Karmalee & Stanton Le Sieur" >To: , > , > >Subject: Ceran St. Vrain >Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:47:53 -0700 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 > >I am interested in this message I found while browsing the net. I am a >descendant in the Saint Vrain Family and desire to know more about the >family origins and genealogy. > >I have a source on the history of the Saint Vrain and De Lassus family >written by a Paul Augustus St. Vrain many years ago. I would like to share >information with persons interested and who can also help me. > >Does this book have such information? Who compiled this book? Who is >interested and why? Please let me know. My phone if interested is >503-524-3042. or email. > >Thanks > >SALeSieur@msn.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material Date: 17 Oct 1998 13:42:22 EDT In a message dated 98-10-16 12:24:02 EDT, you write: << I've read Bridger, Osborne Russell, Bonneville, Playboy, Meek, and Parkman to mention a few... >> Uh ---- who was publishing Playboy in the 1830's???? I know Hef is getting up there, but don't think he's quite THAT old. Were the pin-ups real beaver?? ]8> Seriously, Eckert's books, though a bit early in setting are good reading. Good insight to what happened before the Rockies became popular. They are fictionalized, but he's done his research. Lavender & Legg both have good books on Bent's Fort though Legg's book is based on Lavender's work & has a few mistakes. Any of the Hafen collection are good reading. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 16 Oct 1998 22:12:51 -0700 > Jeff, Most of what you wrote in this post is right on the money but lest any of the newer members get confused, may I clarify that contrary to how you worded it below, the beaver were not "driven west and up into the mountains" but were there all along. The elk and buffalo were on the plains and in the 'Rockies' long before the white man set foot on this continent. As you say, there were all these animals in the eastern part of the continent too, but they were "hunted out" and the hunter was forced to move west to find new populations of game and fur bearing animals. Sorry. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > . The fur trade > that became the era of the "Rocky Mountain Trapper" was the result of beaver > being driven west and up into the mountains,after nearly 200 years of being > hunted for his pelt. Now lets see what other wildlife was pushed to the > west, Buffalo and Elk to name a couple. Elk and Buffalo were seen by early > Jesuits as far east as what is now Green Bay,Wisconsin and possibly farther > east to Detroit. Lets try to remember that the Rocky Mountain Trapper was > the end of the fur trade,not the glory days that it has come to be thought > of,it was the last hurrah before the porkeaters(a term much older than the > mountain trapper) settled the continent. > Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well > > Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night! > > Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 18 Oct 1998 07:19:30 -0500 Your rewording of it does clarify things,Thanks! The misconception that the Mountain Man Era was the fur trade tends to get on my nerves,my ancestors were employed in the trade when Grand Portage was in its heyday and go so far back I think they were here before Colombus(Grin). On 1998-10-16 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >X-UIDL: 2db2d34b24cbdad05400f0c8481d854f >> Jeff, >Most of what you wrote in this post is right on the money but lest >any of the newer members get confused, may I clarify that contrary >to how you worded it below, the beaver were not "driven west and up >into the mountains" but were there all along. The elk and buffalo >were on the plains and in the 'Rockies' long before the white man >set foot on this continent. As you say, there were all these >animals in the eastern part of the continent too, but they were >"hunted out" and the hunter was forced to move west to find new >populations of game and fur bearing animals. Sorry. I remain... >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' >> . The fur trade >> that became the era of the "Rocky Mountain Trapper" was the >>result of beaver being driven west and up into the mountains, >>after nearly 200 years of being hunted for his pelt. Now lets see >>what other wildlife was pushed to the west, Buffalo and Elk to >>name a couple. Elk and Buffalo were seen by early Jesuits as far >>east as what is now Green Bay,Wisconsin and possibly farther east >>to Detroit. Lets try to remember that the Rocky Mountain Trapper >>was the end of the fur trade,not the glory days that it has come >>to be thought of,it was the last hurrah before the porkeaters(a >>term much older than the mountain trapper) settled the continent. >Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well > >> Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night! >> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: MtMan-List: Tinning Date: 17 Oct 1998 23:20:01 -0600 Hello the list! How would I go about tinning a copper pot? Where can I buy cubes of tin? Also does anyone recall running across the name 'Chamberlain' amongst the many journals of trappers? Thanks, Ron \|/ / \ / \ / 0 \ Lonewolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Card Subject: MtMan-List: Re: The Great Beaver Migration Date: 18 Oct 1998 01:16:59 -0400 Well put Captain. I'm glad someone clarified the point. I did crack a s= mile at the thought of herds of panic-stricken beavers darkening the prairie, = as = they made their way toward the safety of the mountains... And one can imagine the relief of the plains tribes when the elk and biso= n = finally showed up, after eating nothing but migrating beaver for so long.= > Jeff, Most of what you wrote in this post is right on the money but lest any of= the newer members get confused, may I clarify that contrary to how you worded= it below, the beaver were not "driven west and up into the mountains" but we= re there all along. The elk and buffalo were on the plains and in the 'Rocki= es' long before the white man set foot on this continent. As you say, there w= ere all these animals in the eastern part of the continent too, but they were "hu= nted out" and the hunter was forced to move west to find new populations of ga= me and fur bearing animals. Sorry. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > . The fur trade > that became the era of the "Rocky Mountain Trapper" was the result of b= eaver > being driven west and up into the mountains,after nearly 200 years of b= eing > hunted for his pelt. Now lets see what other wildlife was pushed to the= > west, Buffalo and Elk to name a couple. Elk and Buffalo were seen by ea= rly ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carpenter's" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 17 Oct 1998 22:05:34 -0500 Dear the list: Beavers are alive and well in The San Bernardino Range of So. California. I would like to see the California Department of Fish and Game transplant more of them here, to create more habitat for other game animals and for the forest, in general. Beavers are very good habitat creators. They can also be pests, sometimes damming up steams in the wrong places, etc. They also have great pelts, in season. Unfortunately, Proposition 4, out here on the left coast, is probably going to pass. Meaning, we won't be able, legally, to trap with leg hold traps. I hope we all vote. Carp Roger Lahti wrote: > > Jeff, > > Most of what you wrote in this post is right on the money but lest any of the > newer members get confused, may I clarify that contrary to how you worded it > below, the beaver were not "driven west and up into the mountains" but were > there all along. The elk and buffalo were on the plains and in the 'Rockies' > long before the white man set foot on this continent. As you say, there were all > these animals in the eastern part of the continent too, but they were "hunted > out" and the hunter was forced to move west to find new populations of game and > fur bearing animals. Sorry. I remain... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > . The fur trade > > that became the era of the "Rocky Mountain Trapper" was the result of beaver > > being driven west and up into the mountains,after nearly 200 years of being > > hunted for his pelt. Now lets see what other wildlife was pushed to the > > west, Buffalo and Elk to name a couple. Elk and Buffalo were seen by early > > Jesuits as far east as what is now Green Bay,Wisconsin and possibly farther > > east to Detroit. Lets try to remember that the Rocky Mountain Trapper was > > the end of the fur trade,not the glory days that it has come to be thought > > of,it was the last hurrah before the porkeaters(a term much older than the > > mountain trapper) settled the continent. > > Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well > > > > Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night! > > > > Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning Date: 18 Oct 1998 19:24:26 -0600 Ron, Try Goose Bay Workshops, Pete Gobel is very helpful and I'm sure he can help you out on your tinning of copper. Phone 540-456-8717 FAX 540-456-6990. Good Luck Buck Conner dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. "Uno qui=E9n negocia" =20 [ One who trades ] ---------- > From: Ron > To: MtMan-list > Subject: MtMan-List: Tinning > Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 11:20 PM >=20 > Hello the list! >=20 > How would I go about tinning a copper pot? Where can I buy cubes of tin= ? >=20 > Also does anyone recall running across the name 'Chamberlain' amongst t= he > many journals of trappers? >=20 > Thanks, Ron >=20 > \|/ > / \ > / \ > / 0 \ Lonewolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning Date: 18 Oct 1998 19:34:35 -0700 Ron, Hello your self. I got started making copper boilers this year and have worked out the process. I'll make it short and sweet and if you have other questions you are more than welcome to contact me off list. I haven't been able to find "tin" at affordable prices and just finding it has been frustrating so what I use is "lead free Silver bearing Plumbers Solder". It goes for about $10 per roll and that is enough to do many pots. Your copper must be very clean and free of blemishes that might keep the solder from adhering. I like to steel wool the copper if it is not in real good shape and I always use the best (cleanest) side on the inside. I have found that paste fluxes tend to make a big mess and so I have been using liquid flux and a cotton swab on a stick to lightly but thoroughly paint the inside of the pot with flux. Do not let it puddle! Just enough to completely cover the inside with no missed spots! Getting some in the seams is a good idea too. I use my Coleman Stove as a heat source and cut up about a foot of the solder into the bottom of the pot. Make a small (thumb size) swab of steel wool on a coat hanger wire (use course steel wool) and squirt some flux on the steel wool swab. Bend the wire over the ball of Steel wool and crimp tight. Heat up the pot using heavy gloves and the bail to hold the pot on the stove until the solder is flowing freely. Use the swab to wash the solder around inside the pot. With the pot on its side at a sharp angle pull liquid solder up the sides and let it flush down as you slowly turn the pot to expose all sides to your efforts. When you have the insides of the pot well coated, and while the solder is still hot, pour off the excess into the lid if you are doing one and try to CAREFULLY sweep out any excess solder so it isn't puddled in the bottom. This last act is a bit tricky and I found I needed to go back on some pots to get it right. Persevere. I put the pot in the washer so it gets scrubbed out well. You can wash it by hand but try to get all the black residue from the flux out. A trip with some steel wool may be needed if you didn't do a perfect job. That should get you a 'tinned' pot. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti'. #1719 and damn proud too! Ron wrote: > Hello the list! > > How would I go about tinning a copper pot? Where can I buy cubes of tin? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material Date: 18 Oct 1998 20:45:40 +0000 Steve, I would recommend Stephen Ambrose's 'Undaunted Courage', Bil Gilbert's 'Westering Man' (Joseph Walker), Bernard DeVeto's 'Across the Wide Missouri', Zenas Leonard's 'Adventures of a Mountain Man: The Narrative of Zenas Leonard', and Hiram Martin Chittenden's 'The American Fur Trade of The Far West' Vol 1 & 2. There are so many more, but these are a few of my favorites. Enjoy the winter, stay warm...... Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recommended Reading Material Date: 19 Oct 1998 01:14:09 EDT I would like to recommend "Ritual Ground", a smashing book by Douglas C Comer (1996, University of California Press). Incorporating the findings of archaeological research at Bent's Fort, it provides not just another routine historical overview, but goes into an anthropological view or the cultures that collided at Bents Fort, and how they prospered or declined. Nice biographical sketches of the people there too. I discovered this book by accident, at the back of Borders section of western history. A delightful book, chock full of information. As they say in my home country, simply smashing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: The Scottish, and Scottish costume Date: 19 Oct 1998 10:50:58 -0600 Dennis Fisher wrote: >>All that being said, I never heard of fur trappers who worked the Great Lakes area, Hudson's Bay, or even the Canadian Rockies for the HBC or the NWC referred to as mountain men. Maybe Angela has some source material on the subject.>> I don't recall ever seeing the term "mountain man" in my reading on the HBC & NWC fur traders, but I focus on the 1774-1821 period, which is just before the Oregon territory "mountain man" era got started. However, Canadians (NWC) were the first fur traders to operate in the Rocky Mountains, starting in the mid-1790's. Since, in looking at Scots in the fur trade, we've touched on an old and confusing thread, I thought I'd repost an old e-mail of mine: Yes, there were a bunch of Highland Scots in the Canadian fur trade--some names from the North West Company: Alexander Mackenzie (who led the first expedition to cross North America by land, in 1793), Simon Fraser (both Fraser and Mackenzie spent many years operating in & around the Rocky Mountains, by the way), William McGillivray, Archibald Norman McLeod, John Macdonald of Garth, and many more. In my reading of a bunch of pre-1821 journals which focus on the HBC & NWC, I have yet to find any suggestion of them wearing Highland dress. (But they were proud Scots, and often gave their men St. Andrews' Day as a holiday.) Many of these men were rich enough to have their portraits painted when they were living in Montreal, but none had themselves painted in _anything_ tartan, let alone wearing kilts or plaids. (The artist who did most of these fur traders' portraits was William Berczy; check out the book _Berczy_ by Mary Macaulay Allodi, Peter N. Moogk, & Beate Stock, published by the National Gallery of Canada, 1991.) There is one exception to this: John Mackenzie, the mixed-blood son of Roderick Mackenzie and his Native wife, was painted by Berczy wearing a red-and-green tartan jacket, white ruffled shirt, black cravat, and a Highland feather bonnet. For what it's worth, at the time that the portrait was painted (1811), John Mackenzie was a lietenant in the Canadian Fencibles. Roderick Mackenzie also had his portrait painted by Berczy--he is not wearing any sort of Highland dress or tartan. John Mackenzie was born about 1788, and in 1801 his father took him to Terrebonne (near Montreal), where he spent the rest of his life (died 1871). So it's unclear how much his clothing in this portrait would reflect what was worn back in the Northwest. After about 1825, IIRC, Highland dress suddenly became fashionable in the U.K. Sir George Simpson's only Scottish fashion accessory, however, was his newly-acquired piper, Colin Fraser, who was hired to accompany Simpson to the HBC's western posts in 1828. From 1835 to 1850, Fraser managed the HBC's Jasper House, in the Rocky Mountains (now within Jasper National Park). (This info from _Northwind Dreaming : Fort Chipewyan 1788-1988_ by Patricia A. McCormack, published by Provincial Museum of Alberta, 1988, ISBN 1-55006-121-6.) Some other Scots in the fur trade: starting in 1814 (if I recall correctly), the Earl of Selkirk, Thomas Douglas, arranged for Highland Scots evicted in the Clearances to be taken by the HBC to settle at the forks of the Red and Assiniboine Rivers (modern Winnipeg). This project continued for the next ten years, and some of the men joined the HBC as employees. Selkirk himself came out to Red River in 1816. However, in Peter Rindisbacher's numerous sketches of life in & around the Selkirk settlement, not a single Scot in Highland dress is shown. In one sketch, made to show the various types of Selkirk settlers, he shows Swiss colonists (of which Rindisbacher was one), Canadians, and a Scotsman. The only article of Highland dress which can be identified is a close-fitting watch cap with a tartan trim around the edge (or perhaps a turned-up tartan lining?). The HBC also employed a large number of men from Scotland's Orkney Islands from the 1780's onwards, but these men were _not_ Highland Scots; the Orkney tradition owes a lot more to the Vikings than to the Highlanders. Someone else mentioned that all the Scottish HBC & NWC men listed thus far were all bourgeois anyhow. This is true. However, the mixed-blood descendants of the Scottish bourgeois were only rarely bourgeois themselves; the problem was that they rarely learned how to read & write, so they couldn't take on the clerical responsibilities of the job. There was also a lot of prejudice against them by high-ranking upstarts like George Simpson. Nevertheless, like their fathers, they _may_ have taken their Highland heritage seriously enough to adopt some elements of Highland dress. So what's my suggestion? Tartan trews (trousers) might be a better choice for a costume than a kilt or plaid, and more practical for the cold weather of the Rockies & Great Plains. As well, there's a much better chance of tartan trousers going unrecorded than of more elaborate Highland dress. Or you could, like John Mackenzie, wear a tartan jacket or coat, for the same reason. Despite all this rambling, I don't claim to be an expert in this field--not by a long shot! I know there was a so-called "Tartan Revival" in England & Scotland in the mid-1820's, but I have no idea whether that translated into more folks wearing Highland dress in the fur trade. Perhaps someone else can fill us in? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: The Scottish, and Scottish costume Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:09:49 -0700 Angela, GREAT dissertation of Canadian Scots!!!!!! John (form the Ramsay Clan) Funk ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: MtMan-List: Joseph Bridger Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:02:39 -0700 OK camp! Here's a question for you. Did Jim Bridger have any relative by the name of....Joseph Bridger???? Yes, it's a real person, but was he a relative? John Funk ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning Date: 20 Oct 1998 01:19:03 EDT In a message dated 98-10-19 00:45:46 EDT, you write: << I haven't been able to find "tin" at affordable prices and just finding it has been frustrating so what I use is "lead free Silver bearing Plumbers Solder". It goes for about $10 per roll and that is enough to do many pots. >> You can also use "95-5" solder which is 95% tin & 5% antimony. The antimony makes the tin flow better & is not toxic. Runs about the same price or a bit cheaper as the lead free stuff. Seems to flow & adhere better than the lead free stuff. The old tinners used asbestos pads to swab the tin/solder around inside the pots, but as we now know, asbestos ain't good for us, so it's nearly impossible to find, & hazardous to use. I've read that some used heavy leather pads, but I think the steel wool trick might be easier -- especialy on smaller pots where you can't get your gloved hand inside with enough room to move freely. Some autobody sypply houses still carry the pads for "leading" which was the process used for autobody repairs before "Bondo" came along. It was a process in which melted lead was wiped on the body metal to fill in the imperfections/dents. For large pots the pads used for this process should work well because you're workng sith simular temperatures. The small stainless steel "tooth brush" (so named for it's size & shape) might work well in some applications. Some fluxes remove easier with alchohol -- the plain old "rubbing" variety seems to work as well as ethanol & methanol & is easier to find (local grocery store) & much cheaper. Above all -- remember you're working with molten tin / solder that's in the 600 degree range & ANY contact with bare skin is imediate pain!!! Be careful!!! Any contact between this molten metal & water has explosive results that usualy splatters the hot tin & generates large amounts of super heated steam. As Capt recommended heavy gloves are a must -- check your local welding supply. I'd also recommend long sleeved cotton shirts & heavy canvas or leather work aprons. I learned the hard way & have the scars to prove it!! I've done a lot of radiator work & some "leaded" body work & had recently gotten the urge to make a pot too, but I was intending on using brass shim stock. This question came at a good time for me because I was doing some heavy thinking about how to spread the tin inside the corn boiler sized pot knowing I couldn't get my hand + glove + pad inside to do the spreading. I'd already decided simply sloshing the tin around inside wasn't a good idea with questionable results. I DO know heat is the secret to getting the tin to flow properly & have it leave a usable thickness of tin deposited on the surface the wife won't scratch through it the first time she scrubs the pot out. You want the pot just hot enough for the tin to flow & stick -- too hot & the resulting coating will be pretty thin. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning Date: 20 Oct 1998 09:50:42 -0700 CAUTION!!!!! Antimony IS toxic, and the alloy with tin you mentioned could still provide some soluble antimony -- not enough to knock you down dead right away, but maybe enough to make you ill slowly, or initiate a serious health problem sometime later (where the cause is less clear and remedies pretty much unavailable). Antimony compounds were used in medicines in the 19th century and before, just as lead, mercury and arsenic were, with similar results. In the past,antimony was used medicinally in numerous forms, but in the late 18th and early 19th centuries it was particularly common in the form of "Tartar emetic" (hydrated potassium antimonyl tartrate, in case you wanted to know that), and used (with little or no success) to treat fevers. It produced vomiting, sweating and catharsis (purgative, forcing the body to expell undesired materials especially from the bowels in order to purify and relieve it). Pure tin is the metal to use in cookware, and if the price seems too high consider the cost, discomfort and inconvenience of medical care today..... and the small amount of tin needed for mending or making your pot. Seriously, the price shouldn;t be all that bad for the amount needed, as the prices for all the high tin content alloy products (including your 95-5 solder) are based on three things: the open market cost of tin (which should be similar no matter what form and what other metals are alloyed in small amounts), plus the cost of fabricating it into a useful form for us (cast in bars, very cheap), plus the cost of distributing it to us (that is likely the source of the high pricing you found -- suggest checking around for a 'commercial' or 'industrial' source of pure tin). By the way, guess where the term 'tinker' for an itinerant mender of pots came from... YMHAOS, Gary Bell NaugaMok@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-10-19 00:45:46 EDT, you write: > > << I haven't been > able to find "tin" at affordable prices and just finding it has been > frustrating so what I use is "lead free Silver bearing Plumbers Solder". It > goes for about $10 per roll and that is enough to do many pots. >> > > You can also use "95-5" solder which is 95% tin & 5% antimony. The antimony > makes the tin flow better & is not toxic. Runs about the same price or a bit > cheaper as the lead free stuff. Seems to flow & adhere better than the lead > free stuff. > > The old tinners used asbestos pads to swab the tin/solder around inside the > pots, but as we now know, asbestos ain't good for us, so it's nearly > impossible to find, & hazardous to use. I've read that some used heavy > leather pads, but I think the steel wool trick might be easier -- especialy on > smaller pots where you can't get your gloved hand inside with enough room to > move freely. Some autobody sypply houses still carry the pads for "leading" > which was the process used for autobody repairs before "Bondo" came along. It > was a process in which melted lead was wiped on the body metal to fill in the > imperfections/dents. For large pots the pads used for this process should > work well because you're workng sith simular temperatures. The small > stainless steel "tooth brush" (so named for it's size & shape) might work well > in some applications. Some fluxes remove easier with alchohol -- the plain > old "rubbing" variety seems to work as well as ethanol & methanol & is easier > to find (local grocery store) & much cheaper. > > Above all -- remember you're working with molten tin / solder that's in the > 600 degree range & ANY contact with bare skin is imediate pain!!! Be > careful!!! Any contact between this molten metal & water has explosive > results that usualy splatters the hot tin & generates large amounts of super > heated steam. As Capt recommended heavy gloves are a must -- check your local > welding supply. I'd also recommend long sleeved cotton shirts & heavy canvas > or leather work aprons. I learned the hard way & have the scars to prove it!! > > I've done a lot of radiator work & some "leaded" body work & had recently > gotten the urge to make a pot too, but I was intending on using brass shim > stock. This question came at a good time for me because I was doing some > heavy thinking about how to spread the tin inside the corn boiler sized pot > knowing I couldn't get my hand + glove + pad inside to do the spreading. I'd > already decided simply sloshing the tin around inside wasn't a good idea with > questionable results. I DO know heat is the secret to getting the tin to flow > properly & have it leave a usable thickness of tin deposited on the surface > the wife won't scratch through it the first time she scrubs the pot out. You > want the pot just hot enough for the tin to flow & stick -- too hot & the > resulting coating will be pretty thin. > > NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning Date: 20 Oct 1998 14:47:07 -0500 The old recipes and instructions I've seen call for using wads & swabs made= of "oakum" -- it should still be available from a plumbing supply house -- if= not try marine suppliers to wooden boat builders. John... At 01:19 AM 10/20/98 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-10-19 00:45:46 EDT, you write: > ><<=A0 I haven't been > able to find "tin" at affordable prices and just finding it has been > frustrating so what I use is "lead free Silver bearing Plumbers Solder".= It > goes for about $10 per roll and that is enough=A0 to do many pots. >> > >You can also use "95-5" solder which is 95% tin & 5% antimony.=A0 The= antimony >makes the tin flow better & is not toxic.=A0 Runs about the same price or a= bit >cheaper as the lead free stuff.=A0 Seems to flow & adhere better than the= lead >free stuff.=A0=20 > >The old tinners used asbestos pads to swab the tin/solder around inside the >pots, but as we now know, asbestos ain't good for us, so it's nearly >impossible to find, & hazardous to use.=A0 I've read that some used heavy >leather pads, but I think the steel wool trick might be easier -- especialy on >smaller pots where you can't get your gloved hand inside with enough room= to >move freely.=A0 Some autobody sypply houses still carry the pads for= "leading" >which was the process used for autobody repairs before "Bondo" came along.=A0 It >was a process in which melted lead was wiped on the body metal to fill in= the >imperfections/dents.=A0 For large pots the pads used for this process= should >work well because you're workng sith simular temperatures.=A0 The small >stainless steel "tooth brush" (so named for it's size & shape) might work well >in some applications.=A0 Some fluxes remove easier with alchohol -- the= plain >old "rubbing" variety seems to work as well as ethanol & methanol & is= easier >to find (local grocery store) & much cheaper. > >Above all -- remember you're working with molten tin / solder that's in the >600 degree range & ANY contact with bare skin is imediate pain!!!=A0 Be >careful!!!=A0 Any contact between this molten metal & water has explosive >results that usualy splatters the hot tin & generates large amounts of= super >heated steam.=A0 As Capt recommended heavy gloves are a must -- check your local >welding supply.=A0 I'd also recommend long sleeved cotton shirts & heavy= canvas >or leather work aprons.=A0 I learned the hard way & have the scars to prove it!! > >I've done a lot of radiator work & some "leaded" body work & had recently >gotten the urge to make a pot too, but I was intending on using brass shim >stock.=A0 This question came at a good time for me because I was doing some >heavy thinking about how to spread the tin inside the corn boiler sized pot >knowing I couldn't get my hand + glove + pad inside to do the spreading.=A0= I'd >already decided simply sloshing the tin around inside wasn't a good idea= with >questionable results.=A0 I DO know heat is the secret to getting the tin to flow >properly & have it leave a usable thickness of tin deposited on the surface >the wife won't scratch through it the first time she scrubs the pot out.=A0= You >want the pot just hot enough for the tin to flow & stick -- too hot & the >resulting coating will be pretty thin.=20 > >NM >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Tinning-A clarification! Date: 20 Oct 1998 20:44:10 -0700 Dear list mates, John is adding some good advise to the original post of how to tin the inside of a copper pot. I do want to make VERY CLEAR that I do not recommend that you use 95/5 solder for this type of job. I say this because the attachment below implies that I do. It is an innocent coping of several posts and I do not take offense. I use lead free silver bearing solder and consider it safe and not THAT DIFFICULT to use. I do not know if 95/5 solder is safe and so will not use it or recommend its use. No offense is intended to any contributor to this thread. John Kramer wrote: > The old recipes and instructions I've seen call for using wads & swabs made of > "oakum" -- it should still be available from a plumbing supply house -- if not > try marine suppliers to wooden boat builders. > > John... > > At 01:19 AM 10/20/98 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 98-10-19 00:45:46 EDT, you write: > > > ><< I haven't been > > able to find "tin" at affordable prices and just finding it has been > > frustrating so what I use is "lead free Silver bearing Plumbers Solder". It > > goes for about $10 per roll and that is enough to do many pots. >>(This is > an excert from Capt. Lahti's' original post) > > > >You can also use "95-5" solder which is 95% tin & 5% antimony. The antimony > >makes the tin flow better & is not toxic. Runs about the same price or a bit > >cheaper as the lead free stuff. Seems to flow & adhere better than the lead > >free stuff. > > > >The old tinners used asbestos pads to swab the tin/solder around inside the > >pots, but as we now know, asbestos ain't good for us, so it's nearly > >impossible to find, & hazardous to use. I've read that some used heavy > >leather pads, but I think the steel wool trick might be easier -- > especialy on > >smaller pots where you can't get your gloved hand inside with enough room to > >move freely. Some autobody sypply houses still carry the pads for "leading" > >which was the process used for autobody repairs before "Bondo" came > along. It > >was a process in which melted lead was wiped on the body metal to fill in the > >imperfections/dents. For large pots the pads used for this process should > >work well because you're workng sith simular temperatures. The small > >stainless steel "tooth brush" (so named for it's size & shape) might work > well > >in some applications. Some fluxes remove easier with alchohol -- the plain > >old "rubbing" variety seems to work as well as ethanol & methanol & is easier > >to find (local grocery store) & much cheaper. > > > >Above all -- remember you're working with molten tin / solder that's in the > >600 degree range & ANY contact with bare skin is imediate pain!!! Be > >careful!!! Any contact between this molten metal & water has explosive > >results that usualy splatters the hot tin & generates large amounts of super > >heated steam. As Capt recommended heavy gloves are a must -- check your > local > >welding supply. I'd also recommend long sleeved cotton shirts & heavy canvas > >or leather work aprons. I learned the hard way & have the scars to prove > it!! > > > >I've done a lot of radiator work & some "leaded" body work & had recently > >gotten the urge to make a pot too, but I was intending on using brass shim > >stock. This question came at a good time for me because I was doing some > >heavy thinking about how to spread the tin inside the corn boiler sized pot > >knowing I couldn't get my hand + glove + pad inside to do the spreading. I'd > >already decided simply sloshing the tin around inside wasn't a good idea with > >questionable results. I DO know heat is the secret to getting the tin to > flow > >properly & have it leave a usable thickness of tin deposited on the surface > >the wife won't scratch through it the first time she scrubs the pot out. You > >want the pot just hot enough for the tin to flow & stick -- too hot & the > >resulting coating will be pretty thin. > > > >NM > > > John T. Kramer, maker of: > > Kramer's Best Antique Improver > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > >>>As good as old!<<< > > > > mail to: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST) Friends, At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for $75.00, that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol. The lock plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my old CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA). The pistol was apparently made in Spain and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with the serial number 0040879. It is not marked CVA anywhere. Someone told me that CVA pistols were once made in Spain. CVA firearms were very good (my mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger and all) and I assume they still are. I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain and if they still do. Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the serial number? Thanks, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "L. A. Romsa" Subject: MtMan-List: Bees wax Date: 21 Oct 1998 11:39:56 -0600 I about to get some bees wax from a bee keeper. I've looked everywhere and = this is all I could find. He says its in a bucket. How do I clean this? I'm going to use it on some restoration and to make patch lube. Thanks for = all suggestions. BrokenJaw=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hi Date: 21 Oct 1998 13:07:36 -0500 try dixie gun works--- =+= hawk michael pierce 854 glenfield dr. palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:41:17 EDT Michnat97@aol.com writes: >I was wondering if you could tell me where i could find parts for a h& >45/70 >trapp door gun thank you scott mcdwell > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S.M.Despain-1" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wintering Grounds Date: 21 Oct 1998 14:35:46 -0500 TetonTod@aol.com wrote: > > Jim, > > A grad student at BYU studing under Dr. Gowans did his thesis on Mountaineer > wintering sites I believe. He recently moved to Nebraska I think, but promised > me a copy when it was printed. I'll track him down and get back to you. > > Todd D. Glover Jim: The grad student discussed who did his thesis on wintering sites (in the same format as Gowan's Rocky Mountian Rendezvous book), Carey Oman, is now at Southern Methodist University in Dallas studying under David J. Weber. The thesis is good, Carey gave me a copy last time we met, I would suspect he'll try to do something in book form down the road after a little polish. Anyway, that is where you can contact him. Matt Despain University of Oklahoma ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S.M.Despain-1" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material Date: 21 Oct 1998 14:50:23 -0500 SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > Ho the list. > I am planning, already, for a long wet winter here in the NW and would like a > list of the top five "must read" books on Mountain Men and the Fur Trade. I've > read Bridger, Osborne Russell, Bonneville, Playboy, Meek, and Parkman to > mention a few.... Will be interesting to see how the "top five" develops. > Steve > Steve: Books on the mountian men I would recomend. For short biography see LeRoy Hafen and Harvey L. Carter two books by Nebraska Press derived from Hafen's Mountian Man and the Fur Trade (10 vols.). Also I did one with the Hafen series but focusing on the Southwest fur trade titled Fur Trappers and Traders of the Far Southwest by Utah State University Press. Janet Lecompt has recently done one of this ilk on just French fur men in the Far West. Other works would be Fred Gowans, Rocky Mountain Rendezvous; David J. Weber, The Taos Trappers; Dale Morgan, Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West is the best biography in my opinion; the next best would be Harvey L. Carter, Dear Old Kit. Stay away from anything Stanley Vestal wrote, too much fillagree. These are just off the top of my head, good reading. Matt Despain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material Date: 21 Oct 1998 15:57:48 -0600 (CST) Robert G. Athern's _Forts of the Upper Missouri_ is a very good treatment of the highly significant non-rendezvous aspects of the fur trade, and offers a superior treatment of the beaver-to-buffalo robe transitional period. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax Date: 21 Oct 1998 17:28:30 EDT Brokenjaw, Check out this site.... http://www.flnet.com/~amethyst/candlecauldron.html... they have the links to most any kind of wax and should be able to tell ya how to clean raw bees wax. It sure makes great candles, and traditional too. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 21 Oct 1998 17:02:49 -0600 (CST) Correction. It's a Kentucky pistol, not a Mtn. Pistol. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax Date: 21 Oct 1998 19:08:56 EDT Melt down the comb and remaining honey in a large pan or metal bucket and skim off the impurities. Then pour the wax into an ice cube tray and you will have lots of convinient blocks to use and give away to friends. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jody Carlson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax Date: 22 Oct 1998 18:31:08 -0500 Dear LA Romsa; I believe a possible source of beeswax can be found in the plumbing section of your local hardware store: it's the wax "ring" that seals the toilet. At least the last time I checked you could still find some made of beeswax. Yr Mst Obt Servt, sjsdm@conpoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: plains moccasins Date: 21 Oct 1998 20:17:42 -0400 Sorry for the delay...had to find the information. 1-800-301-8009 Written Heritage for tape on How to make Moccassins Vol. 1: Plains Indian Hard Sole Style.....19.95+4.00 S&H. It is a good tape. Linda Holley Jerry H. Wheeler wrote: > please send me info iron tongue > > Linda Holley wrote: > > > One of the best tapes on making Plains type mocs came out a year ago. It is > > the best I have seen on how to make good fitting foot ware. I have read all > > the books and seen all the articles, of which the ones published in > > Whispering Wind Mag. are among the best and most detailed of any of the > > books from Laubin to David Montgomery. Give me a call on the net and I will > > send information on how to get it. It is also on the Native tech sight in > > their Magazine section for Whispering Wind. > > > > Linda Holley > > > > Gary Farabee wrote: > > > > > T.A. Terry wrote: > > > > > > > > I would like to make a pair of plains style hard sole moccasins. Any > > > > suggestions for books or articles that would describe in detail how to > > > > do this? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > I don't know if this is of any help. The Apache style moc does have a > > > harder sole than the Plains type moc. A book by David Montgomery, > > > Mountain Crafts and Skills gives directions for them on pp 60-66. The > > > book is published by Horizon Publishers, P.O.Box 490, Bountiful, Utah > > > 84010. > > > > > > The ISbn number is 0-88290-156-7 in case a library could help. The > > > company order number 12 1224. > > > Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Date: 21 Oct 1998 19:43:52 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01BDFD2B.21C631E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anybody have a tentmaker's catalog (preferably Panther Primitive) = handy? Please contact me because I need a little information. Thankee = kindly Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01BDFD2B.21C631E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anybody have a tentmaker's = catalog=20 (preferably Panther Primitive) handy? Please contact me because I need a = little=20 information.  Thankee kindly
Lanney Ratcliff
rat@htcomp.net
------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01BDFD2B.21C631E0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter camps Date: 21 Oct 1998 19:15:11 -0600 Brothers, On the same train of thought about trapper -parties-winter camps-etc.,=20 Dale Nelson's new website (still being worked on) will cover traders befo= re 1840, has a few names listed that are interesting so far, check it out. http://members.xoom.com/dfnels/ Buck Conner Baker Party, CO dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. "Uno qui=E9n negocia" Spanish / "One who trades" / =93Unqui commerce=94 = French See Correspondence below; Dale's remark at the end of this. "if you have = a particular trader on the list of interest to you, let me know & I'll ........", this would be a good chance to have some input!!!!! > > From: Dale Nelson > > To: buck.conner@worldnet.att.net > > Subject: (no subject) > > Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 3:25 AM > > hi Buck > > I like your site - thought you'd be interested in seeing my work in > > progress > > http://members.xoom.com/dfnels/ > > Dale > Barry Conner wrote: > What you have so far looks very interesting, with your permision would like > to link both of my sites to yours. > http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > I'm working on a third site on travel and equipage needed for a correct= ly > equipped reenacter wanting to get the full experience of trekking a few= =20 > days, a month or longer. > Buck >=20 Buck, Link away - I intend to add to the page as time permits, if you have a particular trader on the list of interest to you, let me know & I'll add what info I have on them to the page. Dale ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: goldern age horn Date: 21 Oct 1998 22:57:25 EDT was wondering if you are someone could anwser a question about a goldern age horn what could one use to get the goldern color on the body,and the black color on the throat. thank you traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bz" Subject: MtMan-List: L & C Food Date: 21 Oct 1998 19:32:58 -0700 Greetings to All, Been lurking on the list for awhile and enjoyed all the knowledge so freely shared. Have been rereading the Journals of Lewis and Clark (DeVoto) and the same question keeps popping up. During the time they were on the coast and at Fort Clatsop they mention many times the monatony of their diet of elk and salmon. Why did they not make use of the other sea food there? I use to live in that area and even today you can gather a pretty tasty meal off the shore and bay. If no one else Lewis had to be familiar with sea food from his time spent in D.C. and other east coast cities. Surely men of there proven ingenuity could have cobbled together a couple of crab pots, or steamed a bushel or two of clams ect. Even without the drawn butter and lemon it would have supplied a tasty break from their boring diet. So what am I missing? Any information or opinions appreciated. Thanks Buzz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax Date: 21 Oct 1998 20:52:52 -0700 L. A. Romsa wrote: > I about to get some bees wax from a bee keeper. I've looked everywhere and this is all I could find. He says its in a bucket. How do I clean this? > I would put it in a coffee can or just leave it in the bucket, if its metal, and heat it up until the wax melts. You can skim off all the impurities that float to the top don't worry about the heavier stuff that settles to the bottom. After skimming off the floating debris, gently pour off the pure bees wax into a mold or some other container. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 21 Oct 1998 20:19:13 -0700 --------------2AEE87D03B9F58FA25F1EDCF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a place you can go to see Panther's catalog. MB http://www.catalogcity.com/ViewCover.cfm?VID=150674 Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > Does anybody have a tentmaker's catalog (preferably Panther > Primitive) handy? Please contact me because I need a little > information. Thankee kindlyLanney Ratcliffrat@htcomp.net --------------2AEE87D03B9F58FA25F1EDCF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a place you can go to see Panther's catalog.
MB

http://www.catalogcity.com/ViewCover.cfm?VID=150674
 

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:

 Does anybody have a tentmaker's catalog (preferably Panther Primitive) handy? Please contact me because I need a little information.  Thankee kindlyLanney Ratcliffrat@htcomp.net
--------------2AEE87D03B9F58FA25F1EDCF-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: goldern age horn Date: 21 Oct 1998 20:55:43 -0700 Traphand, Sorry my friend but they come that way from the cow or they don't. Anyother way will look faked. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Traphand@aol.com wrote: > was wondering if you are someone could anwser a question about a goldern age > horn what could one use to get the goldern color on the body,and the black > color on the throat. > > thank you > traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 22 Oct 1998 00:07:58 -0400 Henry B. Crawford wrote: > > Friends, > > At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for $75.00, > that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol. The lock > plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my old > CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA). The pistol was apparently > made in Spain and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with the > serial number 0040879. It is not marked CVA anywhere. Someone told me > that CVA pistols were once made in Spain. CVA firearms were very good (my > mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger and > all) and I assume they still are. > > I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain and if > they still do. Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the serial > number? I can't help you with the serial #'s, but ALL of CVA has been made in Spain for a number of years. Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L & C Food Date: 21 Oct 1998 21:08:05 +0000 Buzz, I don't know either (scratching head). The Corps had lots of (some too intimate) contact with the coastal Indians. Why didn't locals show them, or sell them, tasty tidbits from the sea??? Good question. Any one else bummfuzzled? I am. One thing I do know , they were craving animal fat, which crabs , etc.. would not provide. They complained of lean elk, etc... Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax Date: 22 Oct 1998 04:37:08 -0700 (PDT) The Toilet rings that I used over the years were not pure beeswax.So beware. ---Jody Carlson wrote: > > Dear LA Romsa; > > I believe a possible source of beeswax can be found in the plumbing section > of your local hardware store: it's the wax "ring" that seals the toilet. > At least the last time I checked you could still find some made of beeswax. > > Yr Mst Obt Servt, > > sjsdm@conpoint.com > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 21 Oct 1998 08:29:19 -0600 Lee, The effects of nationalism and ethnocentrism on we interpret the history of the West are facinating. Let's probe a little deeper into the concept of Scottish mountain men. The answer to MacRaith's original question can be a simple as some Scottish names, or more complex if you put those Scottsmen in the context of the political and corporate intrigue of their day. It would be possible to make a division between what was a "fur trader" and what was a "mountain man." If we don't make that too wide of a division, then certainly significant Scottish mountain men would include such characters as Peter Skene Ogden, John Work, Alexander Ross, Finan McDonald, and others who all led multiple significant brigades trapping and trading for beaver in the Rocky Mountains. If we draw a heavy line between "fur traders" and "mountain men," then we probably have to say those Scotts were traders rather than mountain men. But in being consistent, we'd also have to say that Jim Bridger, William Sublette, and Etiene Provost were also traders rather than mountain men -- and we could hardly bare the pain of denying Old Gabe his crown as King of the Mountain Men. Why not say that Ogden, Work, Ross, and McDonald were "Rocky Mountain" mountain men? Further, the Rocky Mountains don't stop at 49 N. Latitude, so we might also include Scottsmen McKennzie and Fraser as mountain men who explored the Rocky Mountains. It is interesting to note in Alexander Ross's autobiography, he recalls a conversation with the Northwest Company factor he went to work for after John Jacob Astor sold out Astoria. That particular Scottish/Canadian trader, who probably could not qualify as a mountain man, asked Ross to compare the differences between how the "Americans" and the "North Westers" did business. Ross's reply included the statement, "Are we not all Americans and all Scottsmen?" Ross's statement leads one to believe that from the mouth of Columbia at the time Scottsmen must have appeared to be abundant and the land they explored appeared to be America. Scottsman Ross appears to have been just as willing work of a New York based company as a Montreal based company. If New Yorker John Jacob Astor has succeeded in making his dream of dominating the western fur trade a reality, it might have been Astor rather than the Hudson Bay Company who purchased the Northwest Company. Astor's navy just couldn't compete with the navy of the competition. It's fun to speculate -- if that multitude of Northwest Company Scotsmen had suddenly become Astor's employees -- would we even think of them as Scottsmen today? Or would we have grandfathered them in as "Americans," as we did all the other first-generation immigrants who settled in the Oregon Territory? In either case, the Scotts who participated in the Snake River Brigades probably have just as stong of a claim to be called mountain men as the men of various national origens who accompanied Ashley to the mountains. It's a man's deeds that made him a mountain man -- not where he was born or which company signed his paycheck during the competition between weathy and powerful men to gain control of the Western fur trade. The stockholders just wanted more profit -- the politicians just wanted to gain control of the territory on behalf of their constituent stockholders -- and the mountain men (American, Scottish, French, or Indian) just wanted to see what was on the other side of the divide. Anyway, that's how it seems from here in Peter Skene's Ogden, Mexico-Utah. Dave -----Original Message----- >> MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote: >> I am just getting started and am looking for good resource material >> > for the Scottish during the French Indian War & more specifically on >> > those that went mountain man afterwards. Any suggestions? > >On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Dennis Fisher wrote: >> I think we have a slight timing problem here. The French and Indian War was >> in the late 1750s and the mountain man period, at its earliest really >> didn't get going until after Lewis and Clark returned. > >Actually Dennis, your partially correct, the american Rocky Mountain >Furtrade dates to after Lewis and Clark, however, the American Fur Trade >dates back to Champlain in the early 1600's. The Northwest Company, which >picked up the pieces of the french fur trade in the later 1700's and was >chock full of Scots, as was the HBC. > >Regards > >Lee Newbill >Viola, Idaho >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage >http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L & C Food Date: 22 Oct 1998 09:57:17 -0400 Hello the list, The Original Journals of Lewis and Clark (Moulton edition) include references to foods other than salmon and elk that the Corps of Discovery consumed while at Fort Clatsop on the Pacific. These included dog, whale blubber, candlefish, roots and berries, hawks, ducks, and sturgeon. There is no mention of shellfish (clams) or crustaceans (crabs). I would suspect that the Indians consumed those delicacies but that Lewis and Clark, demanding a diet that contained fat, would have avoided the trouble it took to seek out shellfish and crustaceans for more readily available foods. There is an entire chapter in a relatively recent book on the Expedition devoted to the foods Lewis and Clark and their men consumed. See Albert Furtwangler, ACTS OF DISCOVERY: VISIONS OF AMERICA IN THE LEWIS AND CLARK JOURNALS (Univ. of Illinois Press, 1993), chapter 5. John Logan Allen (author of LEWIS AND CLARK AND THE IMAGES OF THE AMERICAN NORTHWEST, Dover paperback, 1991). -----Original Message----- >Greetings to All, > Been lurking on the list for awhile and enjoyed all the knowledge so >freely shared. > Have been rereading the Journals of Lewis and Clark (DeVoto) and the >same question keeps popping up. > During the time they were on the coast and at Fort Clatsop they mention >many times the monatony of their diet of elk and salmon. > Why did they not make use of the other sea food there? I use to live >in that area and even today you can gather a pretty tasty meal off the >shore and bay. If no one else Lewis had to be familiar with sea food from >his time spent in D.C. and other east coast cities. > Surely men of there proven ingenuity could have cobbled together a >couple of crab pots, or steamed a bushel or two of clams ect. Even without >the drawn butter and lemon it would have supplied a tasty break from their >boring diet. > So what am I missing? > Any information or opinions appreciated. > Thanks > Buzz > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax filters - firestarters Date: 22 Oct 1998 09:13:33 -0700 Yes, melt your wax in a metal container, but put it in a larger pan of boiling water, so you don't set fire to your kitchen. Keep a fire extinguisher handy too. I wouldn't use an open flame for a heat source either (being a science geek I used an electric lab hotplate with a solid metal top). My hot water heater made water hot enough to melt the wax I needed to clean up from pots and filter funnels. When I melted about a hundred pounds of bees wax for my former wife's craft business (casting Christmas ornaments in chocolate candy molds) I skimmed it off the water, but also had to filter it. Get a big funnel and find an old cotton sheet at a garage sale or in your own linen closet. Tear squares twice as wide as the funnel, fold the square into quarters and open up one of the pockets that makes, placing the folded filter cloth in the funnel. Pour your skimmed wax through the fabric filter, and when the fabric clogs with debris put in another fresh filter and squeeze the liquid wax out of the first into the second (best you can, as you have to use tongs to handle the hot filter). I used two filter funnels to make changing easier. Set the used filters aside, as they make WONDERFUL fire starters, cut to any size you like. As a fire starter they are waterproof and will burn like a candle with a large wick, perfect for wet conditions like we have here on the upper left coast. I also used paper towels, but with cotton sheet fabric at least the materials and techniques are suitable for primitive camping. I have no historical references for actual use of this as a firestarting aide, but I haven't looked for one either. Your skimmed and filtered wax should be a nice consistant color and visibly free of debris. It would make dandy candles as is (dipped or cast), or mixed with some suitable solvent / oil, a nice patch lube or wood/leather finish (recall recent postings about waterproofing canvas tenting materials). You might want to soak the soles of your moc's in melted wax to extend their use in damp conditions, and I have seen references (in Modern camping books) to waxing the exposed parts of cotton (or leather) clothing to render it rainproof. We all recall the recent conversations here about waxing the inside of gourds. Dennis Fisher wrote: > L. A. Romsa wrote: > > > I about to get some bees wax from a bee keeper. I've looked everywhere and this is all I could find. He says its in a bucket. How do I clean this? > > > > I would put it in a coffee can or just leave it in the bucket, if its metal, and heat it up until the wax melts. You can skim off all the impurities > that float to the top don't worry about the heavier stuff that settles to the bottom. After skimming off the floating debris, gently pour off the > pure bees wax into a mold or some other container. > > Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Monte Holder Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L & C Food Date: 22 Oct 1998 09:57:43 -0500 I have also wondered about this. But I seem to recall a number of times reading L&C journals and they describe eating stuff (different foods) found along the way and finding not liking the taste or texture. I don't remember the version or edition, I've read most of at least two different sets of journals. It seems like some folks I know around here (Central Missouri) who WON'T even try something different. Granted I don't think they've ever been REALLY hungry, but it may have something to do with this. Personally, I've learned from my daddy "I don't care what you call me as long as you call me For Dinner." Monte Holder Saline Co MO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax Date: 22 Oct 1998 10:03:07 -0600 Jody Carlson wrote: > > I believe a possible source of beeswax can be found in the plumbing section > of your local hardware store: it's the wax "ring" that seals the toilet. > At least the last time I checked you could still find some made of beeswax. They might have a beeswax base, but they use some other oil or something to make it more pliable and sticky. However, the rings might be good for some purposes. By handling the rings and pure beeswax, you will soon find they are different. Judging from the cost of beeswax and the cost of the rings, they couldn't be made of pure beeswax. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 22 Oct 1998 15:05:29 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BDFDCD.68201D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the information. This will answer all his questions. Thanks = again. Lanney -----Original Message----- From: Frank To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 7:19 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Re:=20 =20 =20 Here's a place you can go to see Panther's catalog.=20 MB=20 http://www.catalogcity.com/ViewCover.cfm?VID=3D150674=20 =20 Lanney Ratcliff wrote:=20 Does anybody have a tentmaker's catalog (preferably Panther = Primitive) handy? Please contact me because I need a little information. = Thankee kindlyLanney Ratcliffrat@htcomp.net ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BDFDCD.68201D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the information.  = This will=20 answer all his questions.  Thanks again.
Lanney
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Frank <MedicineBear@Hawken54.= sparks.nv.us>
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Thursday, October 22, 1998 7:19 AM
Subject: = MtMan-List: Re:=20

Here's a place you can go to see Panther's = catalog.=20
MB=20

http://www= .catalogcity.com/ViewCover.cfm?VID=3D150674=20
 =20

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:=20

 Does=20 anybody have a tentmaker's catalog (preferably Panther = Primitive) handy?=20 Please contact me because I need a little information.  = Thankee=20 kindlyLanney = Ratcliffrat@htcomp.net
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BDFDCD.68201D20-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax Date: 22 Oct 1998 18:55:47 -0500 On 1998-10-22 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Priority: 3 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >X-UIDL: d6cc6fe1a68e3bdba2fa28815e78678d >Dear LA Romsa; >I believe a possible source of beeswax can be found in the plumbing >section of your local hardware store: it's the wax "ring" that >seals the toilet. At least the last time I checked you could still >find some made of beeswax. >Yr Mst Obt Servt, >sjsdm@conpoint.com Thats not regular bees wax. Its too soft and way too sticky.I've never seen bees wax that could be thrown against a wall and have it stick. Not to mention getting it all over your hands. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night! Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L & C Food Date: 22 Oct 1998 18:17:50 -0600 What John has stated is correct, I have an early printing of the full set of journals ( 8 with maps ) and have found the same reference as John. ......dog, whale blubber, candlefish, roots and berries, hawks, ducks, and sturgeon.... along with reference to a number of roots and edibles that were foraged. Buck Conner ---------- > From: John L. Allen > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L & C Food > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 7:57 AM > > Hello the list, > > The Original Journals of Lewis and Clark (Moulton edition) include > references to foods other than salmon and elk that the Corps of Discovery > consumed while at Fort Clatsop on the Pacific. These included dog, whale > blubber, candlefish, roots and berries, hawks, ducks, and sturgeon. There is > no mention of shellfish (clams) or crustaceans (crabs). I would suspect that > the Indians consumed those delicacies but that Lewis and Clark, demanding a > diet that contained fat, would have avoided the trouble it took to seek out > shellfish and crustaceans for more readily available foods. There is an > entire chapter in a relatively recent book on the Expedition devoted to the > foods Lewis and Clark and their men consumed. See Albert Furtwangler, ACTS > OF DISCOVERY: VISIONS OF AMERICA IN THE LEWIS AND CLARK JOURNALS (Univ. of > Illinois Press, 1993), chapter 5. > > John Logan Allen > (author of LEWIS AND CLARK AND THE IMAGES OF THE AMERICAN NORTHWEST, Dover > paperback, 1991). > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bz > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 11:14 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: L & C Food > > > >Greetings to All, > > Been lurking on the list for awhile and enjoyed all the knowledge so > >freely shared. > > Have been rereading the Journals of Lewis and Clark (DeVoto) and the > >same question keeps popping up. > > During the time they were on the coast and at Fort Clatsop they mention > >many times the monatony of their diet of elk and salmon. > > Why did they not make use of the other sea food there? I use to live > >in that area and even today you can gather a pretty tasty meal off the > >shore and bay. If no one else Lewis had to be familiar with sea food from > >his time spent in D.C. and other east coast cities. > > Surely men of there proven ingenuity could have cobbled together a > >couple of crab pots, or steamed a bushel or two of clams ect. Even without > >the drawn butter and lemon it would have supplied a tasty break from their > >boring diet. > > So what am I missing? > > Any information or opinions appreciated. > > Thanks > > Buzz > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >Friends, > >At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for $75.00, >that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol. The lock >plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my old >CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA). The pistol was = apparently >made in Spain and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with the >serial number 0040879. It is not marked CVA anywhere. Someone told me >that CVA pistols were once made in Spain. CVA firearms were very good = (my >mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger and >all) and I assume they still are. > >I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain and= if >they still do. Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the = serial >number? > >Thanks, >HBC > Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's, 1980-1 at latest. I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types. Serial number is 35xxx. I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift back in '87. Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all made overseas. My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just to see how good it will still do. I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it. I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot smaller than they did 20 years ago. I could see them back then, mostly. BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something. Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started using it on a friend's recommendation. Great stuff. Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including = "BS". 1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L & C Food Date: 23 Oct 1998 09:36:24 EDT In a message dated 98-10-22 10:27:09 EDT, you write: << There is no mention of shellfish (clams) or crustaceans (crabs). I would suspect that the Indians consumed those delicacies but that Lewis and Clark, demanding a diet that contained fat, would have avoided the trouble it took to seek out shellfish and crustaceans for more readily available foods. >> I would have to check with my wife for when eating Crabs & Lobsters and Clams became stylish in Amererica, but I do know from her research that in the 1700's in the North East they had contractural restrictions on how often you could feed you indentured servants Lobster or Clams. Seems this was considered cheap, inferior, poor mans food and the servants did not want to eat to often. So it may not have been considered a desirable food in Lewis and Clarks era either. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: making snowshoes Date: 23 Oct 1998 06:20:49 -0600 "Making the Attikamek Snowshoe," by Henri Vaillancourt is by far the most detailed and complete description of how the Indians made snowshoes using only tools and materials that would have been available during the fur trade period of history. If you want to use modern power tools and equipment this book is probably not the one you want. If you want to know what the mountain men learned from the Indians about how to make showshoes -- no other book on the topic compares to this one. A few, but not many, libraries have it. To purchase it, you have to contact the Trust for Native American Cultures and Crafts at: Box 142, Greenville, NH 03048. Phone: 603-878-2944. -----Original Message----- > > > > >Dear Sir, > >I am looking around tonight for information on making my own snowshoes and hit >on your site. Is it possible you can tell me how. I would appreciate any >help you can give me. >Thank you, >Georgia >gmg9 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 23 Oct 1998 20:28:38 -0500 haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot consistant---most of them the rifleing was poor---a cheep barrel is a cheep barrel and the barrel is the heart of all muzzle loaders---have replace a many a CVA barrel with a douglas or better barrel and there is no comparison in loading and shooting.---I know i am going to upset a lot of people with the above statements---have seen darn few CVA shooters in the winning circles consistantly. some bling hogs get luckey and find a acorn ever once and a while---give me a hand cut rifleing or a cut rifleing any time and i will make a CVA run for cover---most cva are broached---a few of the early ones were cut and they did shoot acceptable but not good or consistant----just luck if you put 5 in the black at 25 yds or better---most CVA's had to be lapped and everything else to make them print anything consistant----TOTALLY SUGGEST YOU REPLACE THE BARREL WITH SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT SHOOT CONSISTANT---- Again i know this will cause a sture in the people that love the feel and all of their CVA's but its my personal opinion... =+= hawk michael pierce 854 glenfield dr. palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) writes: >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote: > >>Friends, >> >>At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for >$75.00, >>that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol. The lock >>plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my >old >>CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA). The pistol was = >apparently >>made in Spain and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with >the >>serial number 0040879. It is not marked CVA anywhere. Someone told >me >>that CVA pistols were once made in Spain. CVA firearms were very >good = >(my >>mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger >and >>all) and I assume they still are. >> >>I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain >and= > if >>they still do. Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the >= >serial >>number? >> >>Thanks, >>HBC >> >Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's, >1980-1 at latest. I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart >equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types. >Serial number is 35xxx. I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift >back in '87. Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all >made overseas. > >My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just >to see how good it will still do. I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and >the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it. >I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot >smaller than they did 20 years ago. I could see them back then, >mostly. > >BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something. >Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started >using it on a friend's recommendation. Great stuff. > >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including >= >"BS". >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material Date: 23 Oct 1998 18:02:50 -0400 Steve, To Matt Despain's fine list of good reading material, I would add as recommended reading: Robert Utley, A LIFE WILD AND PERILOUS (a recent work that provides details on the role of mountain men in opening the West to other travelers, government explorers, etc.); Dale Morgan and Eleanor Harris (eds.), THE ROCKY MOUNTAIN JOURNALS OF WILLIAM MARSHALL ANDERSON (1834 travels in the Rockies with fur trappers); anything else written by or edited by Dale Morgan; Richard Mackie, TRADING BEYOND THE MOUNTAINS (a recent work on the trader-explorers of the HBC in Canada and intermountain American West); Rufus Sage, ROCKY MOUNTAIN LIFE (travels with fur trappers in the Forties); David Coyner, THE LOST TRAPPERS (fascinating account of probably-fictitious travels before Ashley). Get a catalog from University of Nebraska Press; their Bison books reprints (paperback) are cheap and inlcude many of the better primary sources (journals, etc.). Happy reading. John Logan Allen Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 jlallen@snet.net -----Original Message----- >SWcushing@aol.com wrote: >> >> Ho the list. >> I am planning, already, for a long wet winter here in the NW and would like a >> list of the top five "must read" books on Mountain Men and the Fur Trade. I've >> read Bridger, Osborne Russell, Bonneville, Playboy, Meek, and Parkman to >> mention a few.... Will be interesting to see how the "top five" develops. >> Steve >> > > >Steve: > >Books on the mountian men I would recomend. > > For short biography see LeRoy Hafen and Harvey L. Carter two books by >Nebraska Press derived from Hafen's Mountian Man and the Fur Trade (10 >vols.). Also I did one with the Hafen series but focusing on the >Southwest fur trade titled Fur Trappers and Traders of the Far Southwest >by Utah State University Press. Janet Lecompt has recently done one of >this ilk on just French fur men in the Far West. > Other works would be Fred Gowans, Rocky Mountain Rendezvous; David J. >Weber, The Taos Trappers; Dale Morgan, Jedediah Smith and the Opening of >the West is the best biography in my opinion; the next best would be >Harvey L. Carter, Dear Old Kit. Stay away from anything Stanley Vestal >wrote, too much fillagree. > >These are just off the top of my head, good reading. > >Matt Despain > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Makin a smooth bore Date: 23 Oct 1998 20:37:51 -0700 I Picked up a caplock CVA Pistol for 15 bucks. The barrel is about 5 inches long, 45 Cal and it works just fine. I would like to possibly make it into a flintlock smoothbore in 54 cal. Its a cheap gun as I've said and I think its a good gun for me to start fiddlin with because if I screw up its no big loss. Do I have enough metal to bore it out? I also don't have access to a lathe so I'm gonna have to find a way to bore it out sorta cheap. I can get the new lock and building a new stock is no problem, so any ideas, warnings etc. would be appreciated. Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant. Sega. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish Date: 24 Oct 1998 14:35:26 -0700 (PDT) On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, David Tippets wrote: > the West are facinating. Let's probe a little deeper into the concept of > Scottish mountain men. The answer to MacRaith's original question can be a > simple as some Scottish names, or more complex if you put those Scottsmen in > the context of the political and corporate intrigue of their day. Hallo Again I have noticed in my readings, when I'm reading American accounts, the nationality of the subject appears to be either "white man" or typified by race, whereas reading Canadian or British journals, they are very careful to call folks by their orignal nationality.... Scott, Irish, etc, and when they refer to Indians, almost invariably they refer to the tribe... Kutenai, Piegan, what have you. Even the 3rd or 4th generation Frenchmen of Montreal were refered to as French, and not simply Canadian. I'm wondering if this is not due to the fact that by that time (1810 or so), the U.S. was a proud young Nation, and the Canadas was still a colony? I still have a lot of reading to do, so maybe this is an abberation. As for Astor, I always felt kinda bad about his losing Astoria for pennies on the dollar during the war of 1812... then I found out he did the same thing to his Nor-wester partners later when the American Congress outlawed foriegn owned business a couple of years later (and they were both partners in the Southwest(?) Company). He also warned the Canadians about the impending war of 1812 so his business partners (British) could seize the border fur depots and save his furs... Not uncommon bedfellows, war and profit. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: ronnyvoo trade goods Date: 24 Oct 1998 23:07:36 EDT "Hello the camp!" Greetings to all, I've been reading all of the goings on for some months now, but have never written myself. My dilemma is this: I would like to have my own trader's blanket at next year's local rendezvous. I would like to sell shirts, knit hats, etc., but I want them to be period correct of course. Does anyone have any fabric swatches they would be wiiling to part with, or at least some advice on what fabrics to use(or not to use)? Much obliged, in advance, for any and all help. YMHS, Wade "Griz" Smith P.S. If you have fasbric swatches, email me and I will give you my mailing address. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 25 Oct 1998 19:12:13 -0800 in reply to hawks statement. cheap junk is cheap junk and a good way to blow your fool head off if you don't look what your doing. if you got a 10.00 head get a 10.00 pistol. your most disobedient servant iron tongue michael pierce wrote: > haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot consistant---most of them the > rifleing was poor---a cheep barrel is a cheep barrel and the barrel is > the heart of all muzzle loaders---have replace a many a CVA barrel with a > douglas or better barrel and there is no comparison in loading and > shooting.---I know i am going to upset a lot of people with the above > statements---have seen darn few CVA shooters in the winning circles > consistantly. some bling hogs get luckey and find a acorn ever once and > a while---give me a hand cut rifleing or a cut rifleing any time and i > will make a CVA run for cover---most cva are broached---a few of the > early ones were cut and they did shoot acceptable but not good or > consistant----just luck if you put 5 in the black at 25 yds or > better---most CVA's had to be lapped and everything else to make them > print anything consistant----TOTALLY SUGGEST YOU REPLACE THE BARREL WITH > SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT SHOOT CONSISTANT---- > > Again i know this will cause a sture in the people that love the feel and > all of their CVA's but its my personal opinion... > =+= > hawk > michael pierce > 854 glenfield dr. > palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com > > On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) > writes: > >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote: > > > >>Friends, > >> > >>At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for > >$75.00, > >>that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol. The lock > >>plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my > >old > >>CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA). The pistol was = > >apparently > >>made in Spain and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with > >the > >>serial number 0040879. It is not marked CVA anywhere. Someone told > >me > >>that CVA pistols were once made in Spain. CVA firearms were very > >good = > >(my > >>mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger > >and > >>all) and I assume they still are. > >> > >>I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain > >and= > > if > >>they still do. Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the > >= > >serial > >>number? > >> > >>Thanks, > >>HBC > >> > >Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's, > >1980-1 at latest. I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart > >equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types. > >Serial number is 35xxx. I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift > >back in '87. Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all > >made overseas. > > > >My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just > >to see how good it will still do. I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and > >the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it. > >I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot > >smaller than they did 20 years ago. I could see them back then, > >mostly. > > > >BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something. > >Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started > >using it on a friend's recommendation. Great stuff. > > > >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including > >= > >"BS". > >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ronnyvoo trade goods Date: 25 Oct 1998 22:45:42 EST Heres some links to period correct fabrics, etc. ClearWater Hats Patchworks-Historic Fabrics Making Time Hemp Fabrics & Textiles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 25 Oct 1998 20:50:48 -0800 In reply to hawks most recent post. My first gun was a CVA and it was junk, except for the barrel. It was one of the ones marked Jukar and I wish I still had that barrel. Overall the quality of CVA guns is poor, but occasionally you get a barrel that will shoot good. Not just tolerable, but VERY good. If I had to take one part from a CVA gun it would be the barrel, and I'd throw everything else away. Yor most disobediant and onry' hivernant Sega ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: MtMan-List: Charles Courtin - thanks Date: 26 Oct 1998 08:08:41 -0700 Thanks everyone for the references to Charles Courtin. Mostly it appears that little is known or at least researced about this critter. I've placed all your responses in file for future research - right now I have many more pressing, if not more important, things to attend to. Should I find more when I have time to look I'll certainly post. Kurt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carpenter's" Subject: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic Date: 26 Oct 1998 09:24:43 -0500 Hello the list: has anyone seen reference to the availability of union suits (thermal underwear) during the fur trade era? Also, if they were available, what about the elastic around the wrists ankles? What about elastic, in general? Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 26 Oct 1998 11:01:15 -0600 michael pierce wrote: > > haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot consistant You'll probably will get plenty of rebuttals on that. But I will say that some CVA Kentucky pistols (mine included) were made with barrels with rifle twists and not the faster twist customary for pistols. I think they might have sawed the good lengths off of rejected rifle barrels into pistol barrels. I don't think it matters that much for off hand shooting, which is what most 'skinners shoot. Anyway because the sights are so close together, that means that any missighting will be multiplied by a couple hundred at the target. I only have a dollar, so will you give me my 98 cents in change? Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 26 Oct 1998 11:34:03 -0600 (CST) Since I started this discussion, I'd better jump in here. I must have been darn lucky. I've been shooting my CVA mountain rifle for 11 years with no problems. Even took a deer with it. I must beg to differ with my colleagues on CVA quality. The two CVA guns I have are not junk. I am sorry to offend, but both turned out to be good shooters. Maybe my standards are not as high, or I just have a way with "inferior" guns. It's like taking a stray dog and turning him into a champion. All it takes is work. As for the pistol, I took it apart, cleaned and oiled everything, check all parts for signs of fatigue (always do that when you buy a used firearm) and took it out for a trial shoot over the weekend. I used a low charge of 15 grains of 2F without a bullet to test ignition a couple of times, then the same thing with 25 grains. Next I cleaned it out and used 25 grains with a patched ball, and again it worked fine. I fired two more times with patched balls and no problems. Then I took it completely apart and checked all parts again. I wasn't target shooting, per se. I was firing at a small prickly-pear cactus and hit it twice. It performed ok. Just think what I can do after I set the sights and practice. We all know that pistols don't generally hit much beyond 30-40 feet, so I wasn't looking for this one to perform great first time out. The moral is treat your guns right and they'll treat you right. Anyone can shoot well with a superior rifle, but the person that can take a mediocre firearm and work with it to make it perform well, is no slouch either. If it works for you, that's all that matters. And CVA guns (so far) work for me. BTW, among my fur trade era guns I have a Navy Arms flinter, which also shoots well. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Pidgeon <75057.1341@compuserve.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic Date: 26 Oct 1998 13:01:25 -0500 Carp While my reaserch can not be concidered exaustave the earliest "Union Suits " I have found by searching origanal catolougs heve been from the early 1890's . Although elastic was known in the mid 19th century it was not used in th= e same way as on the modern union suit . I will now defer to those more knoledgable than myself in this matter . C.P Ontis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic Date: 26 Oct 1998 15:15:33 -0600 Carpenter's wrote: > has anyone seen reference to the availability of union suits (thermal > underwear) during the fur trade era? According to the archives of Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary" the term "union suit" first appeared in the printed English language in 1901. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 26 Oct 1998 17:10:13 EST Chris Sega writes: > It was one of the ones marked Jukar and I > wish I still had that barrel. Overall the quality of CVA guns is poor, > but occasionally you get a barrel that will shoot good. Not just > tolerable, but VERY good. If I had to take one part from a CVA gun it > would be the barrel, and I'd throw everything else away. Chris, I didn't see anyone answer your original question, so I will give it a shot. People often stray from the topic at hand. Take that 5" CVA barrel and remove the breech. The size of the breechplug will determine how much you can ream it out. You cannot go larger than the threads of the breechplug, unless you want to rethread the breech and install a larger breechplug. There is a product on the market called a Unibit. It is a tapered step drill with cutting edges every 1/16th of an inch, and it goes up to 1/2" You will also have to get a bit extension for it. Since the bit is tapered, it is self-centering, and will progressively cut through the barrel. It must be done on a drill press, to get the proper cutting pressure and control. Once you have run the bit through the barrel, you will have a smoothbore barrel of 50 caliber. Now, you can either get a small brake cylinder hone, or a wooden dowel with sandpaper on it, and polish the inside of the bore. VOILA.....you have a 5" smoothbore pistol barrel. They ain't all that accurate anyhow, are they? For a little added effect, file and polish the top flats of the barrel, until you have a half round barrel, and file all the flats for the last inch of the front of the barrel. With the proper nosecap, or inletting, you now have a faux round smoothbore barrel for your pistol. It's not a lot of work. Also, if you can obtain a CVA flint lock, you can replace the percussion lock in your existing stock, and it only takes about a half hour. Remove the percussion drum, and make a touch-hole liner from a 10 X (?) metric bolt. However, if you have a snail breech, then you cannot do this. It is a fun conversion and only takes a few hours, if you have the drill press. OldFox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: CVA Products Date: 26 Oct 1998 17:28:47 EST I think we went this round once or twice before...... Like many others, my introduction to black powder was by way of an inexpensive CVA Mountain Rifle kit back in 1975. The thing always shot well and I put a lot of balls through it over the years. A few years back I had to change the main spring as it had finally lost much of its spring. I did notice that sometime in the mid 80's, CVA's products took a turn for the worse and you couldn't give me anything they make nowadays. (Except if it were real cold outside and i was out of firewood) I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the original CVA products were better than their later products, but even the early stuff doesn't come close to being called "quality." I have a nice semi custom rifle now, but I also still have the CVA and it keeps on ticking. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 26 Oct 1998 18:53:47 -0600 You are dead on about blowing your head off. Several years ago a Tandy Ranger type buckskinner showed up at our club rendezvous with a very cheap pistol. He thought the funniest thing imaginable was to load very heavy charges of powder under just a wad and discharge the loud blank loads, thinking that they were perfectly harmless. On Sunday afternoon, as he was packing up to leave, he decided that one more really loud shot was needed. When he pulled the trigger the thing blew up, sending cheap pistol parts flying everywhere, peppering our boy with shrapnel. The breach plug, which was pinned not threaded, cut a deep furrow from just under one eye almost to his ear. When I got to him, maybe five minutes afterwards, he still was not coherent, but he knew that he was lucky to be alive. I suppose the lesson here is to never buy cheap guns in the first place and never ever shoot one. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >in reply to hawks statement. cheap junk is cheap junk and a good way to blow >your fool head off if you don't look what your doing. if you got a 10.00 head >get a 10.00 pistol. > your >most disobedient > >servant iron tongue > >michael pierce wrote: > >> haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot consistant---most of them the >> rifleing was poor---a cheep barrel is a cheep barrel and the barrel is >> the heart of all muzzle loaders---have replace a many a CVA barrel with a >> douglas or better barrel and there is no comparison in loading and >> shooting.---I know i am going to upset a lot of people with the above >> statements---have seen darn few CVA shooters in the winning circles >> consistantly. some bling hogs get luckey and find a acorn ever once and >> a while---give me a hand cut rifleing or a cut rifleing any time and i >> will make a CVA run for cover---most cva are broached---a few of the >> early ones were cut and they did shoot acceptable but not good or >> consistant----just luck if you put 5 in the black at 25 yds or >> better---most CVA's had to be lapped and everything else to make them >> print anything consistant----TOTALLY SUGGEST YOU REPLACE THE BARREL WITH >> SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT SHOOT CONSISTANT---- >> >> Again i know this will cause a sture in the people that love the feel and >> all of their CVA's but its my personal opinion... >> =+= >> hawk >> michael pierce >> 854 glenfield dr. >> palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com >> >> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) >> writes: >> >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >> > >> >>Friends, >> >> >> >>At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for >> >$75.00, >> >>that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol. The lock >> >>plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my >> >old >> >>CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA). The pistol was = >> >apparently >> >>made in Spain and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with >> >the >> >>serial number 0040879. It is not marked CVA anywhere. Someone told >> >me >> >>that CVA pistols were once made in Spain. CVA firearms were very >> >good = >> >(my >> >>mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger >> >and >> >>all) and I assume they still are. >> >> >> >>I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain >> >and= >> > if >> >>they still do. Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the >> >= >> >serial >> >>number? >> >> >> >>Thanks, >> >>HBC >> >> >> >Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's, >> >1980-1 at latest. I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart >> >equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types. >> >Serial number is 35xxx. I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift >> >back in '87. Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all >> >made overseas. >> > >> >My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just >> >to see how good it will still do. I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and >> >the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it. >> >I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot >> >smaller than they did 20 years ago. I could see them back then, >> >mostly. >> > >> >BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something. >> >Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started >> >using it on a friend's recommendation. Great stuff. >> > >> >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including >> >= >> >"BS". >> >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus >> > >> > >> >> ___________________________________________________________________ >> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: rubber manga's Date: 26 Oct 1998 17:57:33 -0700 I have two rubber manga's. What is the history of these, when were they available? Were they at any rendevous? My is starting to dry out, can any type of repair work for this. I am considering using rubber latex to paint over the cracks. Thanks in advance Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic Date: 27 Oct 1998 02:27:51 EST In a message dated 98-10-26 12:12:15 EST, you write: << has anyone seen reference to the availability of union suits (thermal underwear) during the fur trade era? Also, if they were available, what about the elastic around the wrists ankles? What about elastic, in general? >> Did some checking on this subject a few years ago. The wife had a book on under garments -- which, by the way, during our selected time frame included everything except the top coat -- even trousers were considered "under garments". "Union suits" used to be called "all-in-ones". The book was REAL vague about when they were introduced. It broke history up into 15 - 20 year segments & in the 1880 - 1895 segment it made the comment "All-in-ones continue their popularity." but no where does it state when they came into being. The elastic properties of the cuffs were due to the type of knitting done in that area & didn't have any rubber in it like in modern elastic. According to that book, elastic was introduced in clothing between 1910 & 1920. Earlier women's clothing that looked like it had elastic in it was made with simple draw strings & lacing (called "stroked"). Intresting book. Wish I could lay hands on it & pass along the title & author. For us Rocky Mountain fur trade types, it isn't too much help, but for F&I, Rev War, & settlement types it's a wealth of info in dealing what style chemese or vest was used when. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 27 Oct 1998 06:12:39 -0600 I should have said "never ever abuse one with heavy loads". Have cheap pistols checked out by a competent gunsmith to determine if they are safe to shoot. Also learn the difference between cheap and inexpensive. Inexpensive guns are generally safe enough to shoot, just be leary of cheap junk. The pistol that blew up was not a CVA, but a nameless import. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >You are dead on about blowing your head off. Several years ago a Tandy >Ranger type buckskinner showed up at our club rendezvous with a very cheap >pistol. He thought the funniest thing imaginable was to load very heavy >charges of powder under just a wad and discharge the loud blank loads, >thinking that they were perfectly harmless. On Sunday afternoon, as he was >packing up to leave, he decided that one more really loud shot was needed. >When he pulled the trigger the thing blew up, sending cheap pistol parts >flying everywhere, peppering our boy with shrapnel. The breach plug, which >was pinned not threaded, cut a deep furrow from just under one eye almost to >his ear. When I got to him, maybe five minutes afterwards, he still was not >coherent, but he knew that he was lucky to be alive. >I suppose the lesson here is to never buy cheap guns in the first place and >never ever shoot one. >Lanney Ratcliff >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerry H. Wheeler >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 9:15 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols > > >>in reply to hawks statement. cheap junk is cheap junk and a good way to >blow >>your fool head off if you don't look what your doing. if you got a 10.00 >head >>get a 10.00 pistol. >> >your >>most disobedient >> >>servant iron tongue >> >>michael pierce wrote: >> >>> haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot consistant---most of them the >>> rifleing was poor---a cheep barrel is a cheep barrel and the barrel is >>> the heart of all muzzle loaders---have replace a many a CVA barrel with a >>> douglas or better barrel and there is no comparison in loading and >>> shooting.---I know i am going to upset a lot of people with the above >>> statements---have seen darn few CVA shooters in the winning circles >>> consistantly. some bling hogs get luckey and find a acorn ever once and >>> a while---give me a hand cut rifleing or a cut rifleing any time and i >>> will make a CVA run for cover---most cva are broached---a few of the >>> early ones were cut and they did shoot acceptable but not good or >>> consistant----just luck if you put 5 in the black at 25 yds or >>> better---most CVA's had to be lapped and everything else to make them >>> print anything consistant----TOTALLY SUGGEST YOU REPLACE THE BARREL WITH >>> SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT SHOOT CONSISTANT---- >>> >>> Again i know this will cause a sture in the people that love the feel and >>> all of their CVA's but its my personal opinion... >>> =+= >>> hawk >>> michael pierce >>> 854 glenfield dr. >>> palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com >>> >>> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) >>> writes: >>> >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >>> > >>> >>Friends, >>> >> >>> >>At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for >>> >$75.00, >>> >>that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol. The lock >>> >>plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my >>> >old >>> >>CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA). The pistol was = >>> >apparently >>> >>made in Spain and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with >>> >the >>> >>serial number 0040879. It is not marked CVA anywhere. Someone told >>> >me >>> >>that CVA pistols were once made in Spain. CVA firearms were very >>> >good = >>> >(my >>> >>mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger >>> >and >>> >>all) and I assume they still are. >>> >> >>> >>I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain >>> >and= >>> > if >>> >>they still do. Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the >>> >= >>> >serial >>> >>number? >>> >> >>> >>Thanks, >>> >>HBC >>> >> >>> >Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's, >>> >1980-1 at latest. I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart >>> >equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types. >>> >Serial number is 35xxx. I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift >>> >back in '87. Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all >>> >made overseas. >>> > >>> >My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just >>> >to see how good it will still do. I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and >>> >the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it. >>> >I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot >>> >smaller than they did 20 years ago. I could see them back then, >>> >mostly. >>> > >>> >BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something. >>> >Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started >>> >using it on a friend's recommendation. Great stuff. >>> > >>> >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including >>> >= >>> >"BS". >>> >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus >>> > >>> > >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________________ >>> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber manga's Date: 27 Oct 1998 09:00:02 -0600 (CST) What's a rubber manga? HBC >I have two rubber manga's. What is the history of these, when were they >available? Were they at any rendevous? My is starting to dry out, can any >type of repair work for this. I am considering using rubber latex to paint >over the cracks. >Thanks in advance >Joe > >Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery >Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 >Write for custom tanning prices >We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and >hair on robes >Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets >check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CVA Products Date: 27 Oct 1998 09:04:39 -0600 (CST) If this discussion was had before, I apologize for missing it. I am sure both of my CVA's are good guns. They were probably made before the company began cutting corners. The Mountain Rifle I have (ser. #66574) is the old style complete with two barrel keys, patch box, German silver nose cap, and double set triggers, none of which are found in the newer version. It has a good breech plug and a strong barrel. It was also made here in the USA. Says so on the barrel. Apparently when they changed the style, they also changed the quality. Todd is right. The older CVA's, which both of mine are, are certainly better than the newer ones. My pistol's breech end, nipple assembly, and lock system are made exactly like the old mountain rifle, which is well built. All being said, I think I'll keep them both. Cheers, HBC >I think we went this round once or twice before...... > >Like many others, my introduction to black powder was by way of an inexpensive >CVA Mountain Rifle kit back in 1975. The thing always shot well and I put a >lot of balls through it over the years. A few years back I had to change the >main spring as it had finally lost much of its spring. > >I did notice that sometime in the mid 80's, CVA's products took a turn for the >worse and you couldn't give me anything they make nowadays. (Except if it were >real cold outside and i was out of firewood) > >I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the original CVA products were >better than their later products, but even the early stuff doesn't come close >to being called "quality." I have a nice semi custom rifle now, but I also >still have the CVA and it keeps on ticking. > >Todd Glover ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: underwear Date: 27 Oct 1998 10:41:02 +0100 I just returned to this list after being gone for a while. Noticed an inquiry about "union suits" and assume that someone is looking for info on underwear in the 1800-1850 or so period. First, you might review the piece on trapper clothing in BOB VII. In summary, before about 1850 there WAS male underwear. The waist down was covered by "drawers" which could be any fabric, but were usually wool flannel. The most common configuration seems to have been knee length, with a simple button overlap in front and a drawstring at the waist in back. During this same time period a wool flannel shirt was commonly thought of as the preferred garment to wear next to the skin and therefore could be thought of as the upper underwear. One-piece knitted (or woven fabric for that matter) underwear suits do not seem to have been around before 1850, or at least I've never found any evidence of them. If someone has, please pass along the cites. Knitted wool upper body garments were relatively common in the early 19th century for men and seem to have looked exactly like a modern crew neck sweater. They seem to have been outer garments, not underwear. Most seem tohave been English manufacture and were sold to trapers in the West during the 1830s. Allen Chronister. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear Date: 27 Oct 1998 22:01:45 EST The book NaugaMok refers to is "The History of Underclothes" by C. Willett and Phillis Cunnington, Dover Publications, Inc, New York, 1992. It is really quite an interesting history. Indeed the "union suit" was available in the 1890's, well after the fur trade period. In England, they were called "combinations." Allen Chronisters description of underwear for the mountaineer is well described in this book, complete with pictures. It is written mostly from a British prospective, but still relates what was in fashion in Europe during throughout history. Also, on the topic of long underwear, in "Partridge's Concise Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English," by Eric Partridge, abbridged with new material in the Macmillan Publishing edition of 1984, "John L.s" were long underpants after the old boxing gear worn by John L. Sullivan. Sullivan was a boxer in the late 1880s, the height of his career being 1882-92. Long johns derived their name from this. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 PO. Box1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ladygirl98@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule Date: 28 Oct 1998 01:48:02 EST It has been a few years since my husband and myself have been to a Rendevous. We would like to know if you still keep a schedule of them. If so please e- mail at your convinence. Thanking you in advance. Ladygirl98 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Colin Pringle Subject: MtMan-List: fur recipes Date: 28 Oct 1998 21:44:22 +0530 Dear All I live in Kathmandu, and have access to a lot of rabbit skins. Unfortunately I don't know how to turn them into furs. There are leather tanning skills here, but not fur ones. Does anyone have a basic recipe that will not require any fancy chemicals that I won't be able to get here? ps I am English, but I'll try to do the best I can. Colin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CVA Products Date: 28 Oct 1998 09:44:11 EST In a message dated 10/26/98 11:37:46 PM US Eastern Standard Time, TetonTod@aol.com writes: << I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the original CVA products were better than their later products, but even the early stuff doesn't come close to being called "quality." >> Well, my St. Louis Hawken by CVA was purchased in the early 90's. Admittedly not the finest looking gun to be found, but not butt ugly either.....this is the gun I earned my Rendezvous handle with after going to 3 shoots in a row and going 3 for 3 on the 125 yard, 10 inch gong at each. On the 3rd hit at the 3rd vous, my buddy turned to me and said "God Damn Longshot !!!" However it is a crapshoot buying the new ones as, as I understand it CVA has about 7 different sources for their barrels and this is what will make or break the shooting ability of the gun.......I got lucky. Now my boy is shooting that gun and doing some fine shooting to boot. If he gets any better he'll be better then me and I will be forced to take it away from him and tell him to go buy his own gun. Providing of course that it isn't loaded at the time. Longshot ain't no fool! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule Date: 28 Oct 1998 22:41:17 -0700 Let us know what state you are in and someone will post a website or suggestions for that states info. YMOS Lonewolf ---------- > From: Ladygirl98@aol.com > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule > Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 11:48 PM > > It has been a few years since my husband and myself have been to a Rendevous. > We would like to know if you still keep a schedule of them. If so please e- > mail at your convinence. > Thanking you in advance. > Ladygirl98 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule Date: 28 Oct 1998 22:43:13 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 Ladygirl98@aol.com wrote: > We would like to know if you still keep a schedule of them. If so please e- > mail at your convinence. Ladygirl98 Check out Crazy Wolf's webpage at http://eddie.grrtech.com/rendezvous/ he's got a pretty good listing going, and a what appears to be a comprehensive list of links to many other sites that also list rendezvous. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule Date: 28 Oct 1998 23:02:07 -0800 (PST) Hallo again.... It's Craig and Linda Kerr's page that has the comprehensive listing. This is one of the oldest Blackpowder webpages around, and they keep a listing of a lot of the sites that keep track of rendezvous. You can find it at... http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2839/ Regards again Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Lee Newbill wrote: > Check out Crazy Wolf's webpage at http://eddie.grrtech.com/rendezvous/ > he's got a pretty good listing going, and a what appears to be a > comprehensive list of links to many other sites that also list rendezvous. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Lodding & McClenahan Date: 29 Oct 1998 02:22:31 EST Someone called Steve & Keith about a new Hawkin, & mentioned my name. Somehow their answering machine gunged the message & they didn't get the phone number to return the call. Steve gave me a call & wanted to know who had called, so -- if you called them & are expecting a return call, please call them again. They'll be happy to serve you. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 27 Oct 1998 16:00:59 -0800 (PST) I totally agree with you, we own 2 CVA rifles and 1 pistol. I can shoot as well with these as I can with the Custom Built Rifle I owned years ago, which had a Douglas Barrel. It ain't how much you can pour into yore gun (money wise), but how well you can shoot that makes the difference. ---"Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > > Since I started this discussion, I'd better jump in here. I must have been > darn lucky. I've been shooting my CVA mountain rifle for 11 years with no > problems. Even took a deer with it. > > I must beg to differ with my colleagues on CVA quality. The two CVA guns I > have are not junk. I am sorry to offend, but both turned out to be good > shooters. Maybe my standards are not as high, or I just have a way with > "inferior" guns. It's like taking a stray dog and turning him into a > champion. All it takes is work. > > As for the pistol, I took it apart, cleaned and oiled everything, check all > parts for signs of fatigue (always do that when you buy a used firearm) and > took it out for a trial shoot over the weekend. I used a low charge of 15 > grains of 2F without a bullet to test ignition a couple of times, then the > same thing with 25 grains. Next I cleaned it out and used 25 grains with a > patched ball, and again it worked fine. I fired two more times with > patched balls and no problems. Then I took it completely apart and checked > all parts again. > > I wasn't target shooting, per se. I was firing at a small prickly-pear > cactus and hit it twice. It performed ok. Just think what I can do after > I set the sights and practice. We all know that pistols don't generally > hit much beyond 30-40 feet, so I wasn't looking for this one to perform > great first time out. > > The moral is treat your guns right and they'll treat you right. Anyone can > shoot well with a superior rifle, but the person that can take a mediocre > firearm and work with it to make it perform well, is no slouch either. If > it works for you, that's all that matters. And CVA guns (so far) work for > me. > > BTW, among my fur trade era guns I have a Navy Arms flinter, which also > shoots well. > > Cheers, > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 27 Oct 1998 17:06:18 -0600 old fox--- you gave him a lot of good info--and concure it can be done---think you should sit back and look----try the common sense approach--- at just getting a new barrel made by a barrel maker---rifled pistol barrels new are less than 40.00 and they usually come with a breach---a smooth bore barrel could be made on a lathe in less than a hr and would be true and smooth on the inside---on the drilling what you will get is a lot of cutting marks and its awful hard to get out and make them shoot properly---by the time he does the stuff you was speaking of he will have over half a day work in the barrel---I think a replacement barrel would be a lot cheeper and easier in the long run---all he would have to do is file the tang to fit the hole and drill a toutch hole for the flint lock---contact me off line or give me a call and i will see what we can do to get him a replacement barrel---he will have a hell of a time getting the CVA breach plug out without adding heat---and you know my feelings about adding heat to a rifle barrel--- =+= hawk michael pierce 854 glenfield dr. palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:10:13 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: >Chris Sega writes: > >> It was one of the ones marked Jukar and I >> wish I still had that barrel. Overall the quality of CVA guns is >poor, >> but occasionally you get a barrel that will shoot good. Not just >> tolerable, but VERY good. If I had to take one part from a CVA gun >it >> would be the barrel, and I'd throw everything else away. > >Chris, >I didn't see anyone answer your original question, so I will give it a >shot. >People often stray from the topic at hand. > >Take that 5" CVA barrel and remove the breech. The size of the >breechplug >will determine how much you can ream it out. You cannot go larger >than the >threads of the breechplug, unless you want to rethread the breech and >install >a larger breechplug. > >There is a product on the market called a Unibit. It is a tapered >step drill >with cutting edges every 1/16th of an inch, and it goes up to 1/2" >You will >also have to get a bit extension for it. Since the bit is tapered, it >is >self-centering, and will progressively cut through the barrel. It >must be >done on a drill press, to get the proper cutting pressure and control. > Once >you have run the bit through the barrel, you will have a smoothbore >barrel of >50 caliber. > >Now, you can either get a small brake cylinder hone, or a wooden dowel >with >sandpaper on it, and polish the inside of the bore. VOILA.....you >have a 5" >smoothbore pistol barrel. They ain't all that accurate anyhow, are >they? > >For a little added effect, file and polish the top flats of the >barrel, until >you have a half round barrel, and file all the flats for the last inch >of the >front of the barrel. With the proper nosecap, or inletting, you now >have a >faux round smoothbore barrel for your pistol. > >It's not a lot of work. Also, if you can obtain a CVA flint lock, you >can >replace the percussion lock in your existing stock, and it only takes >about a >half hour. Remove the percussion drum, and make a touch-hole liner >from a 10 >X (?) metric bolt. However, if you have a snail breech, then you >cannot do >this. > >It is a fun conversion and only takes a few hours, if you have the >drill >press. > >OldFox > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos Date: 29 Oct 1998 09:16:32 -0700 I'll inquire again, what information is there about rubber ponchos prior to the civil war. I have two of the one's from Brazil that have unvulcanized rubber painted on linen cloth. Alan, do you have any infor on this Thanks Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos Date: 29 Oct 1998 13:43:08 +0100 Joe asked about rubber ponchos. Once upon a time the conventional wisdom was that there were no rubber goods, especially clothing items, until goodyear invented vulcanazation in the 1850s or whenever it was. Reasearch has proved that wrong, and some of this is disucssed in the piece on trapper clothing that Clay and I did in BOB VII. We can put rubber shoes, hats, coats, canteens and ground cloths in the mountain/plains west before 1840. Narcissa Whitman recorded that she ate meals using her India rubber ground cloth for a table. The process of laminating rubber onto fabric had been developed in England (by MacIntosh of course) in the early 1820s, and by the late 20s and into the 30s, a variety of rubber goods was available in this country. Ft Hall stocked India rubber shoes in the 1830s. I do not have any specific information about ponchos per so. There is debate over the use of any ponchos north of the deep southwest. A J Miller may show one. So that's what I know off the top of my head. The rubber coated fabric was clearly available pre 1840, but I can't say the same for making it into a poncho. Can't say it didn'thappen either. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos Date: 29 Oct 1998 11:30:14 +0000 I, too, have a mangas. The only documentation of rubber cloth in the Rockies that I have found is Narcissa Whittman's mention of using an India rubber cloth as a tablecloth/raincoat. This was 1836. I'd like to know of any other documentation. Anyone know of any other mentions? Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 29 Oct 1998 13:32:43 EST In a message dated 98-10-29 10:41:15 EST, you write: > you gave him a lot of good info--and concure it can be done---think you > should sit back and look----try the common sense approach--- at just > getting a new barrel made by a barrel make Hawk, I agree that buying a new barrel might be cheaper, but how's a young man going to acquire any skills of the trade by taking the easy way out. Look at all the things involved in making that little 5" barrel from a disposable part that is no loss if he screws up. He has only hand tools to work with and the experience in tool control in invaluable. He'll learn: 1. How to debreach an old barrel. 2. How to drill a straight hole in a tube. 3. How to polish the inside of a bore. 4. How to make his own touch-hole liner. 5. Some hand filing techniques 6. Probably other stuff too. Even if he screws it up, the experience is probably worth more than the $40 he might pay for a new barrel. OldFox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 29 Oct 1998 19:46:40 -0800 Hey! Thanks for the info. The reason I wanted to change to a smoother is to have a 54 cal so I do not have to carry different roundball etc. Changing a rifled barrel to a smootbore seems on second thought to be a lot of work for a gun that may not perform and after all is said and done might be more costly than buyin a barrel. Maybe I'll buy a kit. Your most disobediant and onry' hivernant. Sega michael pierce wrote: > old fox--- > you gave him a lot of good info--and concure it can be done---think you > should sit back and look----try the common sense approach--- at just > getting a new barrel made by a barrel maker---rifled pistol barrels new > are less than 40.00 and they usually come with a breach---a smooth bore > barrel could be made on a lathe in less than a hr and would be true and > smooth on the inside---on the drilling what you will get is a lot of > cutting marks and its awful hard to get out and make them shoot > properly---by the time he does the stuff you was speaking of he will have > over half a day work in the barrel---I think a replacement barrel would > be a lot cheeper and easier in the long run---all he would have to do is > file the tang to fit the hole and drill a toutch hole for the flint > lock---contact me off line or give me a call and i will see what we can > do to get him a replacement barrel---he will have a hell of a time > getting the CVA breach plug out without adding heat---and you know my > feelings about adding heat to a rifle barrel--- > =+= > hawk > michael pierce > 854 glenfield dr. > palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com > > On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:10:13 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: > >Chris Sega writes: > > > >> It was one of the ones marked Jukar and I > >> wish I still had that barrel. Overall the quality of CVA guns is > >poor, > >> but occasionally you get a barrel that will shoot good. Not just > >> tolerable, but VERY good. If I had to take one part from a CVA gun > >it > >> would be the barrel, and I'd throw everything else away. > > > >Chris, > >I didn't see anyone answer your original question, so I will give it a > >shot. > >People often stray from the topic at hand. > > > >Take that 5" CVA barrel and remove the breech. The size of the > >breechplug > >will determine how much you can ream it out. You cannot go larger > >than the > >threads of the breechplug, unless you want to rethread the breech and > >install > >a larger breechplug. > > > >There is a product on the market called a Unibit. It is a tapered > >step drill > >with cutting edges every 1/16th of an inch, and it goes up to 1/2" > >You will > >also have to get a bit extension for it. Since the bit is tapered, it > >is > >self-centering, and will progressively cut through the barrel. It > >must be > >done on a drill press, to get the proper cutting pressure and control. > > Once > >you have run the bit through the barrel, you will have a smoothbore > >barrel of > >50 caliber. > > > >Now, you can either get a small brake cylinder hone, or a wooden dowel > >with > >sandpaper on it, and polish the inside of the bore. VOILA.....you > >have a 5" > >smoothbore pistol barrel. They ain't all that accurate anyhow, are > >they? > > > >For a little added effect, file and polish the top flats of the > >barrel, until > >you have a half round barrel, and file all the flats for the last inch > >of the > >front of the barrel. With the proper nosecap, or inletting, you now > >have a > >faux round smoothbore barrel for your pistol. > > > >It's not a lot of work. Also, if you can obtain a CVA flint lock, you > >can > >replace the percussion lock in your existing stock, and it only takes > >about a > >half hour. Remove the percussion drum, and make a touch-hole liner > >from a 10 > >X (?) metric bolt. However, if you have a snail breech, then you > >cannot do > >this. > > > >It is a fun conversion and only takes a few hours, if you have the > >drill > >press. > > > >OldFox > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick Date: 29 Oct 1998 13:08:41 EST Ho the list, In Hafen's book "Broken Hand", page 81, Fitzpatrick mention an unusual atmospheric disturbance on June 20, 1829..... "all of a sudden the air became of a dull smoky appearance so excessively heated that the skin seemed to be blistered at its touch. He states that he believed that his eyes would melt from his head." ....ah...., that was either some damn fine whiskey, or maybe a near miss on an asteroid.... Anyone care to guess what that was all about and did anyone else record the event? ...makes a Blackfeet attack seem like a good day.... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Reading Material Date: 29 Oct 1998 12:49:04 EST Ho the list, Thanks for all the replies on the "must read" list! Most all the books mentioned can be found at Amazon.com or interloc.com.... A few out of print, and some rather spendy. Also look under "Fur Trade" search at Yahoo and bring your check book. There is a life time worth of reading in there..... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick Date: 29 Oct 1998 23:38:33 EST This event sounds a lot like the recordings of 'range fires'. Dont have my resources at hand, but have read similar descriptions of the wild fires of the time. YHS, ShootzHimself ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: MtMan-List: New member Date: 29 Oct 1998 23:28:47 -0800 I am a new subscriber to the list and am also very interested in the fur trade era. I haven't gotten into buckskinning yet, but I can feel the bug starting to bite. I work as an inspector for Public Works in the county where I live, and I work part time as a math tutor at the local community college. I was a muzzleloader over 20 years ago back east, I live in Oregon now and am getting back into the sport. I spent the past year building a rifle (Hawken replica) from scratch. I was surprised by how much I remembered from my youth about building rifles! I learned it all from Ron Griffie in Maryland; some of you may have heard of him. Anyway, the Hawken turned out just the way I had hoped and shoots fine (now, if I can meet up with an elk...). I'd like to toss out a question: When I think about those boys whose life depended on their rifle going off whenever they pulled the trigger, I wonder how long they would carry a load in the barrel. It seems like with dampness and all they would want to empty her out every now and then just so they could put in a fresh load. I reckon we could all speculate about this (please do), but does anyone know of any old writings that discussed such things? Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR rocrutch@cdsnet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Corey Tretteen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule Date: 29 Oct 1998 23:41:06 -0800 I kinda would like to know the same thing. In the washington, oregon, idaho area. >>> "Ron" 10/28 9:41 PM >>> Let us know what state you are in and someone will post a website or suggestions for that states info. YMOS Lonewolf ---------- > From: Ladygirl98@aol.com > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule > Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 11:48 PM > > It has been a few years since my husband and myself have been to a Rendevous. > We would like to know if you still keep a schedule of them. If so please e- > mail at your convinence. > Thanking you in advance. > Ladygirl98 > ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Card Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum" Date: 30 Oct 1998 08:40:32 -0500 Question for John or anyone else... I read somewhere that oakum is a lef= tover = from making hemp fabric - like tow is to linen. Is this the same stuff? > The old recipes and instructions I've seen call for using wads & swabs = made of > "oakum" -- it should still be available from a plumbing supply house --= if not > try marine suppliers to wooden boat builders. > > John... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Card Subject: re: MtMan-List: Bees wax Date: 30 Oct 1998 08:53:10 -0500 For future reference, I've gotten beeswax from James Townsend, one of my = favorite sources of "stuff". It's $7 a pound - I don't know if that's = good or bad. If I was to get some cheap or free from a bee keeper, I'd go for it. I'd melt it, and strain it through cheese cloth to get out = the bee parts &c. -David- p.s. oh yeah... jastown@halcyon.com 1-800-338-1665 www.jastown.com (cool site - I think their whole catalog is here plus stuff that's not in the catalog) = > I about to get some bees wax from a bee keeper. I've looked everywhere = and this is all I could find. = > He says its in a bucket. How do I clean this? > I'm going to use it on some restoration and to make patch lube. Thanks = for all suggestions. > BrokenJaw = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos Date: 30 Oct 1998 08:50:15 -0600 (CST) Allen, Is it kosher to use my Civil War period rubber poncho with its grommets for 1830s-40s fur trade era, or do grommets come in a bit later? Is there any good information on how rubber ponchos were made during the rendezvous period, specifically, how the headhole was cut and configured? HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 29 Oct 1998 20:02:40 -0800 Just got old foxes second message and in reply, Althought the value of learning to debreach etc. is valuable, I am more interested in the basics of gunsmithing. I thought going the do it yourself route on making the smoothbore might be fun but, I think that another better route would be to finish a kit, using quality parts and working up from a blank stock, lock and barrel to a finished gun. I ain't duckin out on the learnin, but using books and, My present custom gun as an example, and the help of friends who know more, I believe I'll have a better experience . A kit, I think, is a good learnin tool. Any thoughts? Your most disobediant and onry' hivernant. Sega ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum" Date: 30 Oct 1998 12:17:10 -0600 Traditionally oakum was made by picking the fibers apart in old ropes. When it wasn't much good as a rope any more it was made into oakum. So it was hemp.= =20 What you get at a plumbing or marine supplier today may be entirely= different. John... At 08:40 AM 10/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >Question for John or anyone else...=A0 I read somewhere that oakum is a leftover >from making hemp fabric - like tow is to linen.=A0 Is this the same stuff? > > > >> The old recipes and instructions I've seen call for using wads & swabs= made of >> "oakum" -- it should still be available from a plumbing supply house --= if not >> try marine suppliers to wooden boat builders. >> >> John... >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: Henry Crawford: Ponchos Date: 30 Oct 1998 09:19:11 +0100 Henry: Like I said in the other message, I do not have any information on whether rubber ponchos existed much before the Civil War, or if they did, how they were configured. Don't recall info on when the Army started using them. I do know, like I said before, that rubberized fabric was being produced at least in England in the early 1820s and was being manufactured into garments--ie rain coats--by Mr. MacIntosh, which is why the Brits still call raincoats "Macs." So, a rubberized fabric poncho for a pre-1840 setting is something that was possible, but I can't prove or disprove it, much less tell you what it would look like. Sorry. For what its worth, which may not be much, I don't use one. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum" Date: 30 Oct 1998 08:06:49 -0800 David, Interesting question. It is my 'belief' that whatever oakum is made of, it is the original product versus a by-product. It may very well be the same material as tow,( i.e. hemp), only treated with extra materials to make it suitable for another purpose, whether that be to dam the flow of plumbers lead or caulk the seams between ship planking. I mean to try it when tinning a copper pot but have not had time to find a suitable quantity. The steel wool that I have used in the past works but it picks up quit a bit of the tinning agent which is thus lost or hard to recover. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' David Card wrote: > Question for John or anyone else... I read somewhere that oakum is a leftover > from making hemp fabric - like tow is to linen. Is this the same stuff? > > > The old recipes and instructions I've seen call for using wads & swabs made of > > "oakum" -- it should still be available from a plumbing supply house -- if not > > try marine suppliers to wooden boat builders. > > > > John... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum" Date: 30 Oct 1998 19:27:24 EST from the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary oa*kum (noun) [Middle English okum, from Old English acumba tow, from a- (separative & perfective prefix) + -cumba (akin to Old English camb comb) -- more at ABIDE] First appeared 15th Century : loosely twisted hemp or jute fiber impregnated with tar or a tar derivative and used in caulking seams and packing joints ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber manga's Date: 30 Oct 1998 15:44:15 -0600 Henry, I have no information about the appropriateness of a poncho, I do have some= on grommets. Plain rubberized tarps may have been available. =20 If I remember right Jeff Hengesbaugh was the first to bring mangas up from Mexico for the buckskin trade back in the seventies. They didn't have ties= or grommets. To cut a T shape head hole in the middle of a small tarp seems= like something someone would have done. Ties could be easily added to the= corners and edges. The two piece stamped grommets we are familiar with today are not= appropriate. Grommets were not unknown during the period but would be a simple wood, bone or metal ring tightly whip-stitched onto the canvas (lashed like a buttonhole stitch around the entire ring). I don't research later period but would be very suspicious of modern= grommets being correct for Civil War. John... At 09:00 AM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote: >What's a rubber manga? > >HBC > >>I have two rubber manga's. What is the history of these, when were they >>available? Were they at any rendevous? My is starting to dry out, can any >>type of repair work for this. I am considering using rubber latex to paint >>over the cracks. >>Thanks in advance >>Joe >> >>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery >>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 >>Write for custom tanning prices >>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and >>hair on robes >>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings,= baskets >>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Curator of History >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu=A0=A0=A0=A0 Museum of Texas Tech University >806/742-2442=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Box 43191 >FAX 742-1136=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Lubbock, TX=A0 79409-3191 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >******=A0 Living History . . . Because it's there!=A0 ******* >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum" Date: 30 Oct 1998 15:02:24 -0600 At 08:06 AM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote: >David, ... The steel wool that I have used in the past works >but it picks up quit a bit of the tinning agent which is thus lost or hard= to >recover. I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > If Oakum is used as the wiper it should be fairly easy to recover any excess tin held in the fibers by burning off the hemp under high heat. Separating iron from tin when used with steel wool would be much more difficult. John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 30 Oct 1998 13:52:18 -0600 danny caywood just came out with a beautiful cannon barrel flint pistol give him a call he can furnish it in kit form---beautiful example of the time period and very good lock--- =+= HAWK Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:02:40 -0800 Chris Sega writes: >Just got old foxes second message and in reply, Althought the value of >learning >to debreach etc. is valuable, I am more interested in the basics of >gunsmithing. >I thought going the do it yourself route on making the smoothbore >might be fun >but, I think that another better route would be to finish a kit, using >quality >parts and working up from a blank stock, lock and barrel to a finished >gun. I >ain't duckin out on the learnin, but using books and, My present >custom gun as an >example, and the help of friends who know more, I believe I'll have a >better >experience . A kit, I think, is a good learnin tool. Any thoughts? > >Your most disobediant and onry' hivernant. >Sega > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 30 Oct 1998 13:45:40 -0600 you made some darn good points---concure with the learning curves but i guess i try to always look at the quality and end product that i build and if you start with poor quality you will normally end with poor quality---a person will take more pains with something that he has spent hard earned bucks on---and he knows it is of good quality---- =+= HAWK Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:32:43 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 98-10-29 10:41:15 EST, you write: > >> you gave him a lot of good info--and concure it can be done---think >you >> should sit back and look----try the common sense approach--- at >just >> getting a new barrel made by a barrel make > >Hawk, >I agree that buying a new barrel might be cheaper, but how's a young >man going >to acquire any skills of the trade by taking the easy way out. > >Look at all the things involved in making that little 5" barrel from a >disposable part that is no loss if he screws up. He has only hand >tools to >work with and the experience in tool control in invaluable. He'll >learn: >1. How to debreach an old barrel. >2. How to drill a straight hole in a tube. >3. How to polish the inside of a bore. >4. How to make his own touch-hole liner. >5. Some hand filing techniques >6. Probably other stuff too. > >Even if he screws it up, the experience is probably worth more than >the $40 he >might pay for a new barrel. > >OldFox > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Date: 30 Oct 1998 13:56:57 -0600 rifle or pistol quality is 85% and the shooters ability is the other 15% if the gun cant shoot as well as the holder it dont make a bit of difference---IF A GUN BARREL WILL ONLY HOLD 6 INCHES THEN THE SHOOTER CANT MAKE IT SHOOT ANY TIGHTER-----you are going to mis your mark---ENOUGH SAID----QUALITY IS QUALITY AND JUNK IS JUNK---- =+= HAWK Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:00:59 -0800 (PST) Sam Keller writes: > >I totally agree with you, we own 2 CVA rifles and 1 pistol. I can >shoot as well with these as I can with the Custom Built Rifle I owned >years ago, which had a Douglas Barrel. It ain't how much you can pour >into yore gun (money wise), but how well you can shoot that makes the >difference. > > > >---"Henry B. Crawford" wrote: >> >> Since I started this discussion, I'd better jump in here. I must >have been >> darn lucky. I've been shooting my CVA mountain rifle for 11 years >with no >> problems. Even took a deer with it. >> >> I must beg to differ with my colleagues on CVA quality. The two CVA >guns I >> have are not junk. I am sorry to offend, but both turned out to be >good >> shooters. Maybe my standards are not as high, or I just have a way >with >> "inferior" guns. It's like taking a stray dog and turning him into >a >> champion. All it takes is work. >> >> As for the pistol, I took it apart, cleaned and oiled everything, >check all >> parts for signs of fatigue (always do that when you buy a used >firearm) and >> took it out for a trial shoot over the weekend. I used a low charge >of 15 >> grains of 2F without a bullet to test ignition a couple of times, >then the >> same thing with 25 grains. Next I cleaned it out and used 25 grains >with a >> patched ball, and again it worked fine. I fired two more times with >> patched balls and no problems. Then I took it completely apart and >checked >> all parts again. >> >> I wasn't target shooting, per se. I was firing at a small >prickly-pear >> cactus and hit it twice. It performed ok. Just think what I can do >after >> I set the sights and practice. We all know that pistols don't >generally >> hit much beyond 30-40 feet, so I wasn't looking for this one to >perform >> great first time out. >> >> The moral is treat your guns right and they'll treat you right. >Anyone can >> shoot well with a superior rifle, but the person that can take a >mediocre >> firearm and work with it to make it perform well, is no slouch >either. If >> it works for you, that's all that matters. And CVA guns (so far) >work for >> me. >> >> BTW, among my fur trade era guns I have a Navy Arms flinter, which >also >> shoots well. >> >> Cheers, >> HBC >> >> ***************************************** >> Henry B. Crawford Curator of History >> mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University >> 806/742-2442 Box 43191 >> FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 >> WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >> ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* >> >> > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos Date: 30 Oct 1998 20:00:32 -0800 Alan, As usual, your information is invaluable and knowledge abounds. However, I fear that certain generalizations may prove misleading to the novice amongst us. The fact that "vulcanized'" cloth/rubber garments existed within the fur trade period doesn't mean that yellow crossing guard rain coats and goulashes are acceptable at various events replicating fur trade activity. My point is that a more definitive response on that subject matter is earnestly needed, ie. what sort of fabric was rubberized? What kind of "rubber" was used? Where did it come from? What colour was the eventual product? Was it sold as premade garments and/or sold as bulk sheeting?..........and so on. What was "India rubber"? I've seen what is sold by Panther and seriously wonder if this is a true replication of a period product. I tend to think that vulcanization in its infancy probable consisted of a gum type rubber, ill refined and a bit bulky. Could be totally wrong. Any further incites on the particulars of this subject? John Funk ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule Date: 30 Oct 1998 20:14:01 -0700 Hello Corey, Look at Lee Newbill's page Buckskins and Blackpowder http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 YMOS, Lonewolf ---------- > From: Corey Tretteen > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule > Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 12:41 AM > > I kinda would like to know the same thing. In the washington, oregon, idaho area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos Date: 31 Oct 1998 11:00:31 -0700 John, Sam at Panther is a salesman, like many of us in the trade, he provides a good product for the money, but on many of his items he tries to produce = an item as close as possible - at a fair price. The problem is to make that item exactly like an original sometimes drive= s the cost up so high that only a few will spend the money for it. So is th= e case with many of the items available today to the various time frames, n= ot everyone can afford a real birch bark canoe but can make over a modern on= e to look close. Many of the suppliers are using the Eastern manufacturers from India and East Asia to produce tin, copper, iron, etc. items in an attempt to keep costs down and retail sales up. Look at the wide spread on knives, from a few dollars for one of an eastern country to many many dollars for a cust= om knife made in the USA. For correct period items we have to pay more and you may want to check wi= th some of the high dollar dealers that deal in correctness like: C & D Jarnagin, Co. P.O. Box 1860 Corinth, MS 38834 < http://www.jamagininco.com > G. Gedney Godwin, Inc. PO Box 100 Valley Forge, PA 19481 Ph (610) 783-0670 < http://gggodwin.com/ > Have done business with these gentlemen for years and if they don't have = a correct rubber poncho for your time frame, they'll know who does. Good Luck, Buck Conner dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. < http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > "Uno qui=E9n negocia" Spanish =93Unqui commerce=94 French "One who t= rades" English _______________________________________ -----Original Message----- >Alan, > >As usual, your information is invaluable and knowledge abounds. >However, I fear that certain generalizations may prove misleading to the >novice amongst us. The fact that "vulcanized'" cloth/rubber garments >existed within the fur trade period doesn't mean that yellow crossing >guard rain coats and goulashes are acceptable at various events >replicating fur trade activity. My point is that a more definitive >response on that subject matter is earnestly needed, ie. what sort of >fabric was rubberized? What kind of "rubber" was used? Where did it >come from? What colour was the eventual product? >Was it sold as premade garments and/or sold as bulk >sheeting?..........and so on. What was "India rubber"? > >I've seen what is sold by Panther and seriously wonder if this is a true >replication of a period product. I tend to think that vulcanization in >its infancy probable consisted of a gum type rubber, ill refined and a >bit bulky. Could be totally wrong. > >Any further incites on the particulars of this subject? > >John Funk > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum" Date: 31 Oct 1998 08:52:46 -0800 John, My point exactly. I have burned off the steel wool and knocked out most of the tinning agent but the oakum may work much better. When I can get some I will try it. BTW, Tom and I were trying to tin a copper pot he had made of .011 thick copper. I had trouble getting the tin to 'take' on the initial try so Tom cleaned the pot out a bit and re fluxed. I put the thing back on my propane stove and proceeded to burn a big hole in the bottom. The other pots I've made were of .022 thickness and did not give that problem. Consider this a warning to those playing around with this craft. Do not use really thin copper or brass lest you loose the vessel to the goddess Pele! John Kramer wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos Date: 31 Oct 1998 08:03:16 -0800 John C Funk wrote: > > What was "India rubber"? Narcissa says, "Our table is the ground, our tablecloth is an Indian rubber cloth used when it rains as a cloak." This is in a letter written June 4th, 1836 on the Platte and which I got from "Rocky Mountain Rendezous" by Fred Gowans. Some place she also mentions gutta-percha cloth. My 1911 Websters Dictionary says gutta-percha is "a reddish-brown horn-like substance; the inspissated juice of the gutta-percha tree (Isonandra gutta) of the Malay Archipelago." I looked up inspissated, which is, "To thicken by boiling or evaporation." Is this what we would call a rubber tree? Is gutta-percha cloth and Indian rubber cloth the same thing? or is it two different types of water proof cloth? They also had oil cloth which is canvass treated with linseed oil? except when I was a kid -- born 100 years after 1836, at least my family called oil cloth a rubber coated cloth that was spread on the ground when we went on a picnic? John Kramer was did a post on grommets. Canvass was used for the engines of ships before Christ was born. Sail makers whip stiched grommets in sails for centuries, and I'd bet that when metal grommets were first used some sailor was trying to figure a way to make a sail last longer. I'd also bet that the first use of India rubber cloth was at sea, and perhaps a good place to start research on this type of thing would be the Mystic Seaport museum in New England. Sorry, I don't remember the state or town where it's located, but someone out there should know. One last thing on grommets. I met a guy that located a site of a ferry and store that was pre civil war/gold rush era. This doesn't prove a thing, but it's something to think about. I amongst the artifacts that he found using his metal detector was a pattern of brass grommets that suggested that a canvass tarp had laid on the ground and rotted away. Somebody could have camped there years later, and left the tarp, but it's something to think about. DN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule Date: 30 Oct 1998 21:33:17 -0800 >> From: Corey Tretteen >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendevous Schedule >> Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 12:41 AM >> >> I kinda would like to know the same thing. In the washington, oregon, >idaho area. > > Corey, Here is another source. http://eddie.grrtech.com/rendezvous/calendar/ "Pockets" A.K.A. Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho travel@turbonet.com "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---" General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos Date: 31 Oct 1998 00:22:58 EST Joe, If you have access to back issues of "Overland Journal," the magazine of the Oregon-California Trail Association, Vol. 14, Num. 1, Spring 1996, has an article titlted "India Rubber Kept Them Dry," by Jacqueline Williams. While its focus is primarily the Oregon Trail, it provides good info on pre-Civil War uses of India rubber. Its bibliography includes a book by Ralph F. Wolf, "India Rubber Man; The Story of Charles Goodyear," published by Caxton Printers in Caldwell, ID, in 1939. That may be another source for you. The article states there was a "veritable rubber boom" in the US during the 1830s. Of course it was only the beginnings of real research and experimentatin to make rubber useable. Vulcanization wasn't discovered unitil 1839 so it was after that when most uses were developed. Articles such as coats, ponchos, capes, leggins, water pails, mittens, maps, balls, Haversacks, pants, caps, syringes, suspenders, water tanks, saddle bags, blankets, shoes, horse covers, mattress covers, teething rings, and elastics are all mentioned. There is a good photo of an India rubber rain coat recovered in 1968 from the cargo of the steamboat "Bertrand," which sank April 1, 1865, on its way to Fort Benton in Montana territory. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com If you can't find the article, let me know, I'd be happy to mail you a photo copy. Back issues are available from OCTA at P.O. Box 1019, Independence, MO 64051-0519. (816)252-2276.