From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #62 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, May 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 062 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 17:31:17 -0700 From: Vic Barkin Subject: MtMan-List: Lookin fer good history sites in Utah Hey Dean and any other Utah Folks, Gota go to Provo on business later this month. any of you hail from there? looking for a historic site or two to spend some time at. B.Dawg Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party "Aux aliments du pays!" Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1998 19:26:13 -0700 From: "Pat Quilter" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Waterproof Canvas Re: Waterproof Canvas I have used a painter's drop cloth, untreated, with good results as a shelter. If well draped, without sagging, it will shed water, and will only drip slowly even when water puddles in sags. It is light and affordable. The usual trick of tying small rocks in the corners or where needed solves the problems of tying to stakes, hanging from limbs, etc. One supposes that original mountaineers, if having canvas at all, had plain cloth which they used for multiple purposes. Mainly you see references to draping extra blankets or skins over branches etc. The only drawback to untreated canvas is that you can't blithely wrap your bedroll in it and sleep out in the rain, but it works great as a shelter with minimal hassles. CAUTION: don't do like I did and hang your mocs from a ridge-rope to dry, it wicked the water down into them and they filled up overnight. Yr Ob't Sv't Pat Quilter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:10:35 -0500 From: "Ken YellowFeather" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Dennis, The shell tubes you refer to are called columella. (sic?) They were made from large conch shells. They took the central portion and ground these pieces into the tubes and some were broken into smaller pieces and made into beads. I have several hundred of these from walking over plowed fields in search of arrow heads and such. Some beads and tubes will show evidence of being drilled as well. YellowFeather - ---------- > From: Dennis Fisher > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... > Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 5:15 PM > > Ted wrote: > Of what kind of bones I don't know > > The bone pipes were trade items and we made back east in New England. > There was a very good article in the Fur Trade Quarterly and Dean had a > link to another on the web. The early "bone pipes" were made from the > heavy lip portion of a sea shell (some kind of conch shell?). Later > ones were actually made from the thick leg bones of cattle that were > split into small pieces and then turned. Maybe someone can remember the > web article and pass that along. It was a cottage business and the guy > who designed the machine to drill them kept it a secret for many years > as I recall. > > Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:17:59 -0700 From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smooth bore barrels Hawk, Thanks, it helps to add "perspective" to "facts"! I appreciate the time you took to share your experience. I think a little research is due on my part to determine which flinter was both "period correct" and the most useful for my persona. Naturally it will have to meet one final test. It'll have to be "right purdy" too! I guess only I can determine that! Regards, Medicine Bear Michael Pierce wrote: > MEDICINE BEAR > > the information that i am about to provide you with is my personal > opinion and what i have absorbed from over 35 years buckskinning and from > many fond friends past and present that are true buckskinners and people > that were born over a 100 years too late. keep a open mind and accept > what you feel is correct to you. > > The smooth bore rifle was only one option of the weapons carried by the > western fur trapper or trader. use your common sense you will probably > agree with the next statement that i am about to make. > > THE EARLY TRAPPERS AND MOUNTAIN MEN CARRIED WEAPON THAT THEY WERE > COMFORTABLE WITH AND HAD THE ABILITY TO PURCHASE PRIOR TO LEAVING > CIVILIZATION. THERE BASIC NEEDS DICTATED THE FIREARM THAT THEY FELT WAS > REQUIRED. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A Smooth bore RIFLE, A FUSIL, A FOWLER, A > RIFLED GUN, A SINGLE OR DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN, EVEN A HANDGUN. THE > WEAPON WAS USED FOR DEFENSE AND FOR THE PROCUREMENT OF MEAT TO SUPPORT > THEIR EXISTENCE AND FOR BASIC SELF PROTECTION. > > each firearm has a special feature that they could rightly justify or > that they felt met their requirements. the neet part of a smooth bore is > that you didn't have to have lead to fire it. only powder FLINT OR CAP > and some type of wadding. lead or shot was wonderful but they could load > them with rocks, a wooden bullet or anything else that would fit down the > barrel if they were to run out of shot or ball. The northwest trade > gun was appropriate for period and many were altered by shortening the > barrel and the stocks, kind of like our sawed off shotguns of today. > many were repaired with raw hide to hold the barrel in the channel and > you will see many examples of this in original guns. the northwest gun > had a good lock that made good spark and caps were not required to fire > it, i have seen several of these that were converted to use musket caps > so what are we to say is period correct. one can justify anything if he > thinks about it long enough. the northwest guns or fowler were easy to > load and could be loaded on horseback by placing the balls in the cheek > of the mouth and with a big or burned out touch hole by simply closing > the frizzen pouring powder down the barrel and blowing a ball down the > barrel it would fill the flash pan and it was ready to fire when rideing > at full gallop along a buffalo then quickly swinging the gun down and > firings before the bullet fell out . this is the explanation i was once > given for having seen several smooth bores with bulges in the barrel--- > yes it could have been caused by improper cleaning or a stuck bullet but > i like my story better. PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT CONDONING THIS TYPE OF > SHOOTING OR EVEN RECOMMENDING IT. you will have to go back to the common > sense approach and, logical, feasible, or practical or could it even be > done then you make your own determination.. > > all mountain men dreamed of owning a good rifle but it would cost almost > a years wages in that time period for the best made. yes there were > cheep rifles both in flint and in percussion. most true buckskinners > will tell you that a flint rifle is the only one to have because "IF GOD > WANTED YOU TO HAVE A PERCUSSION GUN THEN HE WOULD HAVE PAVED THE CREEK > BANKS WITH PERCUSSION CAPS" a bit radical but again i would say it is > the need and the ability to procure that dictated the firearm of choice > for the fur trapper and mountain man.. > > Most mountain men preferred larger caliber rifles and many were half > stock, but again it was personal preference. look at the killing range > of a muzzle loader and you will see what i am trying to say. Yes there > were several 40 caliber guns carried by the mountain men but they > probably had more than one rifle. and it took a larger caliber or heavier > bullet to kill at the extended distances required in the plains. In the > eastern united states most game was killed at close range and were not > the size of a buffalo or a bull elk or a grizzly bear. I have seen > several small black bears killed with a 40 caliber but most had heavy > barrels and took a heavy powder charge to get the killing energy needed. > I have a friend that killed a small black with his 40 cal kentucky loaded > with 90 gr of black. he said he had to place the bullet good and he > still wondered if it was going to die lucky he was hunting out of a tree > stand and the bear ran over a hundred yards and then collapsed. He said > if he ever did it again he would go for the large bore gun over 50 cal. > > If you look at the so called plains rifles you will see a big > commonality most were large bore and half stock with heavy barrels over > one inch in dia. some were even 1 1/2 across the flats and some were > tapered to about 1 in at the muzzle. since the rifle was carried on > horseback most of the time the weight of the rifle didn't make that much > difference. If you have ever carried a 12 pound rifle in the woods to > hunt for several days it might change your mind, but their rifles were > carried primarily on horseback so what's the problem with another 4 > pounds in a gun if it met your needs and requirements.. > > five things were important to the average mountain man or fur trapper and > kept close at hand. > 1. a method to make fire. > 2. a good knife > 3. a good belt ax or tomahawk > 4. some type of firearm to procure game > 5. good common sense to utilize the above for survival in the wilderness. > > some would say you need shelter added to the above but if the mountain > man or fur trapper had the above he could build his shelter, some would > say he needed a horse, then i would say god gave him two feet and two > hands he could survive. I have been a skinner for over 30 years and been > fortunate to have been around some of the finest men that i believe ever > lived. each were teachers in some form or made a important point. > listen to those who know and use your god given common sense to disregard > those who haven't been there and done that. Practical experience is one > hell of a teacher and it doesn't take long to sort out what is real or > plain old bull. > > REMEMBER: WITH COMMON SENSE A GOOD KNOWLEDGE BASE AND TWO HANDS AND A > KNIFE A MOUNTAIN MAN CAN SURVIVE ANYWHERE. > > Sorry for the length of this epistle but have just spent several hours of > my time reading over 40 msgs on how to roast a coffee bean and have come > to the conclusion that our reality or common sense has left us IF YOU > ARE NEW TO BUCKSKINNING then keep in the back of your mind IF IT WERE > AVAILABLE AND THE MOUNTAIN MAN COULD HAVE USED IT HE WOULD HAVE, HE > WASN'T STUPID, HE SURVIVED ON COMMON SENSE AND HIS EXPERIENCE. > > LEARN AND TEACH OTHERS AND BUCKSKINNING WILL ADD ANOTHER DEMENTION AND > CREATE A WAY OF LIFE FOR YOU IN EVERYDAY LIVING.. > > If you get to here you will even see that i even said something about > smoothbore barrels contact me offline for further discussion . My > e-mail address is: hawknest4@juno.com > sorry for the emotional frustration and verboseness of this epistle. > > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > 1-(813) 771-1815 > > On Sat, 02 May 1998 13:03:21 -0700 Frank > writes: > >Hello the List, > > > >Just a couple questions... > >Is the smoothbore the gun most often carried by the western fur > >trapper or eastern > >woodsman and if so what time frames are we talking about? > >What rifled barrel guns were carried by western mountain men? > > > >Thanks, Medicine Bear > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:55:44 -0600 From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... At 10:10 PM 5/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >Dennis, >The shell tubes you refer to are called columella. (sic?) They were made >from large conch shells. They took the central portion and ground these >pieces into the tubes and some were broken into smaller pieces and made >into beads. I have several hundred of these from walking over plowed fields >in search of arrow heads and such. Some beads and tubes will show evidence >of being drilled as well. >YellowFeather > The best reference I know of on the wampum hair pipes can be found on-line, at: http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/tptoc.htm - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 23:53:20 EDT From: KP MTN MAN Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry Hi. I am new to this list, but am appreciating what I am reading so far. Thanks for the comments above about authenticity as opposed to the the driving force behind doing what we do. I gree (for what that's worth) that the spirit and desire far outweigh the crossed t's and dotted i's. One of these days I hope to be able to get back into beading and sewing my own clothes. (took time off to start a family, and 2 kids and a college degree later, time is scarce) anyway, thanks again for the encouraging words. ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1998 21:41:14 -0700 From: "Pat Quilter" Subject: MtMan-List: Light Packs Light Packs The recent subject of waterproofing canvas and the desire for light packs brings to hand the following report. On this last weekend of May 1-3, my good friend Burnt Spoon, who lives on the eastern slopes of Mt Palomar near San Diego, hosted a three-day Edibles Walk which was attending by four men, myself, Spoon, Tom Nichols "Firekeeper", and Dave Hood "Lost and Found". We all decided to lighten our packs as much as possible, motivated as much by our age and (lack of) condition as well as a test of our gear. Packs ranged from 25-30 lbs, and basically comprised a tarp, one blanket, coat, and minimal accoutrements. My pack was lightest at 25 lbs and comprised the following: A light pack frame, which I built primarily from a dried yucca stalk, about 3" thick, split into halves, with the rounded sides of the top and bottom crosspieces facing my back, and lashed with rawhide into an 18" by 24" frame. Dry yucca is like balsa wood, but ordinary, inch-thick branches could be used instead with similar strength. I lashed two crossbars, ordinary 3/4-inch peeled branches, between the upper and lower crossbars on the outside of the vertical frame for more tie-points. All crossbars, including top and bottom, extend several inches outwards so rope can be looped around the first end, around the first bundle, around the next crossbar end, around the second bundle, etc, without ever having to feed the rope through an opening. Easy to lash up and pull tight, using a 15-foot rope on each side, which is also useful around camp. The resulting frame rides on hip and shoulder with two deerhide shoulder straps. Up to three bundles can readily be tied to the four crossbars. To my immense gratification, it proved possible to lean back against the frame and bundles during rest stops without undue strain. Incidentally, I base this frame solely on common sense; I have yet to find any references to exact methods used by mountain men to carry their gear after losing their horses, other than "carrying our bundles on our backs". My first bundle was a canvas, about 7 x 7 feet, sufficient to encase my bedroll (I am 6" 4"), rolled up with the following possibles: a tin cup with lid, a tin billy (small and large mating cups), and a several pound canvas sack with the following items: horn spoon, a sewing kit, scrap of cloth, pince-nez glasses with tweezers (eyes don't see close like they used to), toothbrush, bum fodder, burning glass, couple of sticks of pitch pine, small sacks of coffee and oatmeal for breakfast, sack with dried mixed vegetables for dinner, sack with sugar, chocolate, and bottle of salt, a 7-oz cheese, and an 8-oz salami. (jerky instead of salami would be more period perhaps), and a small "quarter axe" about half the size of the usual camp hawk. This all rolled into a bundle about 20" long and 7" around. The reader will note that with two cups, I still have the luxury of fixing coffee and food at the same time, so I hardly felt deprived. I confess that this piece of canvas is from Panther Primitives and is commercially waterproofed. Spoon had a similar piece of home-made oil cloth (Spanish Red) which was several pounds heavier. I also have a painter's drop cloth, which I didn't bring, which makes a good shelter or dry weather bedroll cover. A possible alternative using strictly period material might be two lightweight canvas tarps, one for a rain shelter, and the other, kept dry, as a windbreak about the blankets. I have never had much luck staying warm in blankets only, as any wind seems to seep through and steal your warmth. A buffler robe is of course splendid but way heavy to carry, especially wet! The second bundle, of similar size, had my serape blanket, one of those hand-woven Bolivian jobs with two 30" panels stitched together and about 7 ft long, which I undid the stitching for a foot in the middle to stick the head through, and which sheds rain quite well, rolled around a sheepskin tunic (sew two shearling skins together, wool side in, leaving arm and head openings), which is easy as pie to make, provides a lot of warmth for the weight, and is less confining to sleep in than a capote, plus a wool hood to keep the head warm, and two thick socks, in reserve only in case the mocassins get dreadfully wet right before bedtime (if I can enter bed with dry warm mocs, fire toasted if necessary, my feet usually stay adequately warm). I rather prefer wearing mocassins without socks, aside from the question of whether mountain men would have had plenty of socks to wear out. While walking, the little rocks which get inside are a bit of a pain, but try walking in stream-soaked mocassins with socks on if you want your feet to feel like two wet sandbags. However, the other men preferred socks, and we did not have to wade any streams on this trip. Upon my person, I carried shooting pouch and horn, belt knife, belt pouch, fire starting pouch, and canteen, with a light smoothbore in hand. This whole rig felt WAY lighter than previous expeditions, where I used a pack basket and yielded to the temptation to "just throw in" quite a few more knick-knacks. We supplemented our diets with edible greens, and Spoon knew where to find clean water, but we all carried enough food for the three days. The first night, at 38-40 degrees under clear skies, challenged our non-acclimated bodies, but my restlessness was due more to failure to feather my nest sufficiently with leaves or the like, rather than lack of insulation. I have been able to make it through frosty nights with the covers noted above, but on a first night out, I could only get warm in certain positions which grew too uncomfortable to hold for long. A good bed of leaves or other cushioning would not only add to the insulation but permit of greater comfort. Our second night out involved some rain, which actually resulted in warmer temperatures. Having learned from the previous night, we all selected cushier areas of leaf duff and Spoon augmented his considerably by piling many inches of leaves between two deadfall logs (which kept him and his mattress in position). Our various waterproof tarps, combined with the best plant cover we could select, kept off the rain and we all slept much more cosy. We did not resort to the common practice in the old days of sleeping in pairs once the weather got truly cold, nor did we gather tons of wood and sleep around the fire, so there were still things we could have done to survive in much colder weather. I should add that being in California, I don't face truly cold weather too often. Although contrary to modern backpacker practice, I sleep in the same buckskins I wear, without long johns or the like, on the assumption that early travelers quickly wore out any undergarments, might have to leap up suddenly to check the horses, or repel attack, and the general notion that nobody much cared to shift out of clothing already warmed by use. The other men in the party had cloth shirts which they layered under buckskin or wool capotes to stay warm. I have never liked long johns, since besides the historical issue, you can't remove them during the heat of the day, and I sweat to death while walking. Clothing which can be put on or off as the need requires works better for me. As a city boy, I would never hold myself up as an example of physical hardiness, but I am also impressed by what you can just get used to after a few days out of doors. Anyway, we all enjoyed our outing, and the minor maneuvers we needed to do for comfort at night were well offset by having a manageable load on the shoulders by day. One can see methods of surviving with less, but this seemed like a usable compromise between convenience and minimalism. Submitted for your approval, I remain Yr Ob't Sv't Pat Quilter, "Horsecatcher". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:51:03 EDT From: TetonTod Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas A couple of other tips on waterproofing canvas using linseed oil and paint. harkening back to Mark bakers article on the subject in Muzzleloader and from his video, Be sure to use boiled linseed oil that has a neutral Ph. I'd get some test paper and check your solution otherwise the acidity will severley weaken your cloth and it will tear easily. Also when drying the oiled cloth, hang it in the shade. I came home one afternoon to check my newly oiled cloth that was hanging in the direct sunlight and the heat that built up nearly burned my hand. I swear that it was close to combustion from the heat developed between layers. I suspect this may have also weakened the material. I did an 8' x 8' cloth and it came out quite heavy. No way I'm carrying that around on my back and I'd have to appologize to a horse if I made it carry the thing. Does work nice as a trailer cover though. Todd Glover ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:58:38 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: FIRE STARTING MATERIAL JON it hasn't been 6 months and they were discussing fire starting on the list. drop dean rudy a note and ask him to pull the writings on it and send to you. if i remember correctly someone posted almost a book on how and what to use in fire making. it is best to remember that depending on what area of the world or country different things make extremely good firemaking materials. I like the cedar bark because it is redily available to me but have used many different things. the hemp thread that is sold for macromay is good and very similar to the old tow i have used to clean my muzzleloader with ignites real well if you have a good punk to catch the spark. they use it in a lot of fire making contests that i have been in. the inner cedar bar is probably the best for me, but must be dry to get a fast fire, i normally carry a wad of it in my fire box, or the hemp macromay rope. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Mon, 4 May 1998 19:31:31 -0500 "Ken YellowFeather" writes: > Jon, >Great tip on the fire starting materials. Powdered cedar and cedar >bark >from under cedar trees makes good fire starter too. The lower limbs >that >are dead can be used as a base as well. Burns hot and fast. >YellowFeather > >---------- >From: JON P TOWNS >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry >Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 9:09 PM > > > >: >: Comments : >: >: : >: As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the >difference >: between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester. I made a shirt a few >years >: back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held up the material >against the > >: real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I couldn't tell the difference >between >: the two. The difference between the two was $15.00 a yd. We have a >man >: from the NW and he will look over your shirt real close. Stand in >front >: of you talking, while he is looking you over you feel like your fly >is >: open. So I make my stitches far enough apart for people to see it >is >hand >: stitched. But what most of the nit pickers don't realize is that a >self > >: respecting person back in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly >made >: shirts . I don't think being so picky is important, now some of >my >: brother will come down on me for this but I can take it. This man >said >: how could I in good conscience stand in front of some school >children and >talk >: to them with a machine sewn shirt. My come back kids in school >aren't >: that picky and wouldn't know the difference. That is how I do it >but >when he >: sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't know >it >: all. The point is, it don't make a lot of difference what shirts >are >made >: of, modern tech does a good job of making fabric. > >As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to weaken when wet. It makes >good >fire starting material. >I use it that is over 50 years old. and the only thing any better is >paper >wasp nest - the wasps. > >Later Jon T. > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:15:24 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting coffee beans (& tea!) "JON P TOWNS" wrote: > I Think you are right about the tea but coffee was costly like today and > was not much to be had. I'll throw this out. I read something Mark Baker > wrote and he couldn't find any inventories that allowed him to carry brick > tea can any one tell me of any inventories that had Brick tea on them. I > think the HBC had some at one time, at Fort Vancouver. Angela help. I've never seen 'brick tea' anywhere in my reading of Canadian fur trade journals between 1774 & 1821. The types of tea most often seen are Hyson (green tea) and Bohea. I have no idea what Bohea tea was, but it cost much less than Hyson. I suspect that it was black tea, since I have found an HBC request for supplies to the Athabasca for the 1821-1822 outfit which, instead of asking for Hyson tea & Bohea tea like earlier orders, requests green tea & black tea. Coffee, Hyson tea, and chocolate were issued as rations to HBC clerks & partners in 1806. Tea seems to have been a more popular drink than coffee in the Canadian fur trade, but coffee was also drunk. Fort George (Astoria) had 4 lbs Souchong tea, 4 1-lb canisters of tea, and 2 1-lb canisters of tea stolen by Natives, along with a bunch of other stuff, in 1814 (Henry & Coues, 2:823). Alexander Henry the Younger also mentions drinking coffee with molasses and goat's milk at Fort George (Astoria). Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:17:07 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Light Packs PAT: good trip report sounds like it was a true learning experience for you. It takes a few trips into the woods with only the minimum to learn to improvise and have creature comforts that you don't realize are there. I went thru and instructed in survival training at ft bragg, and mountain, desert training at Edwards AFB and you will be surprised each time you go out you will learn something new and also learn a lot about yourself. It really helps if you have someone who has been there and done that to assist you and give you some basic guidance. Basic Common sense and learning to observe your enviroment makes the woods/ or desert a storehouse for supporting you and allowing you to take less and less with you each time and for longer periods of time. in survival school we were given a chicken or rabbet, 50 ft of T-50 cord and a knife and what ever we had in our pockets at the time they decided to take us out for our 7 day fun/play period. I gave them back their rabit and got my own meat, he and i became good friends after 7 days and nights, helped to keep me warm at night, and didn't talk back much. learn to observe nature and nature will take care of you. learn the basics, food, water, shelter, improvising to obtain food, and your basic knowledge of the enviroment you are in. common sense and keeping a cool head if emergancies arise will save your life and those around you if you are fortunate to have others with you. "KEEP ON TRECKING AND LEARNING" "WELL DONE" "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:55:12 -0500 From: "Ken McWilliams" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Howdy Dean, I find it rather amusing that they give the credit for inventing so called hair pipes to a white man. The native Americans were making these and the beads at least a thousand years before the Campbells ever made their first one! I didn't think that Dennis was talking about wampum, I thought he was talking about hairpipes made by the indians of that time. I noticed that they talk about the skill needed to make them with the machinery at hand, how about the skill that was needed to make one with "primitive" tools? I am not disputing the fact that most of the shell artifacts that are found were made by commercial means, just pointing out that this was not an invention by Mr. Campbell. I have both types of "shell" artifacts in my collection, but like the "real ones" best. Your Obt. Servant, Ken YellowFeather - ---------- > From: Dean Rudy > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... > Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 10:55 PM > > At 10:10 PM 5/4/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Dennis, > >The shell tubes you refer to are called columella. (sic?) They were made > >from large conch shells. They took the central portion and ground these > >pieces into the tubes and some were broken into smaller pieces and made > >into beads. I have several hundred of these from walking over plowed fields > >in search of arrow heads and such. Some beads and tubes will show evidence > >of being drilled as well. > >YellowFeather > > > > The best reference I know of on the wampum hair pipes can be found on-line, > at: > > http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/tptoc.htm > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com > Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:42:15 -0700 From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Ken McWilliams wrote: > > Howdy Dean, > I find it rather amusing that they give the credit for inventing so called > hair pipes to a white man. The native Americans were making these and the > beads at least a thousand years before I was under the impression that they are called hare pipes on account of they were made out of rabbit bones. This was told me by a bead collector, I have no source, but it might be interesting to look into. Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:39:18 -0700 From: "P.D. Amschler" Subject: MtMan-List: Return to the cloth One more Question, Trying to put together an acceptable out fit for the 1800 - 1840's AMM garb I have seen many posts on type of cloth. Everything from canvas for pants and tents to linen. Two extremes. Here is my problem. My wife and I went out tonight and found a plethera of differnt Calico prints, muslin, and linen. The question is what print is acceptable? I know that blue&white, red&white black&red or white. Small squares 1/4 - 1/2" small dots, flowers (small ones)? I have been to a lot of vous that have all kinds of non-normal prints so I am really in need of some advice. I am using a sweat pant pattern for my pants with out the elastic or pockets and canvas that has been washed at least 3 times to soften it up (got this tip from our cloth lady) on the advice of a AMM member but as for my shirt what pattern of calico? After reading many of the posts on what is right and wrong I have come to see that someone who is starting out to become a trapper in the 1800's probable bought his first set of clothing in a city or maybe a large trading post. This could have been sewn on an old machine or by hand. I am very aware of the styles of clothing in the sailing ships and if that were to carry over to the mountians it would add up. Not all mountain men were born in the mountains they came from the cities or the sea. I am just trying to put every thing in perspective. Thanks in advance for the advice Paul Amschler amschlers@mailcity.com Get your FREE, private e-mail account at http://www.mailcity.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:38:48 EST5EDT From: "Brian Dokter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Return to the cloth > One more Question, > >Trying to put together an acceptable out fit for the 1800 - 1840's AMM garb I have seen many posts on type of cloth. Everything from canvas for pants and tents to linen. Two extremes. Here is my pro> I am using a sweat pant pattern for my pants with ou the elastic or pockets and canvas that has been washed at least 3 times to soften it up (got this tip from our cloth lady) on the advice of a AM> > After reading many of the posts on what is right and wrong I have come to see that someone who is starting out to become a trapper in the 1800's probable bought his first set of clothing in a city o> Thanks in advance for the advice > I ran across a site that specializes in historical fabric. I visited her store in a little town called Amsterdam in Montana. Amazing. She has a wall of colonial fabric, pre-civil war fabric, post civil war, etc. Check out http://www.patchworks-usa.com/ Brian K. Dokter, CHMM bdokter@hotmail.com Calvin College "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -- Nietzsche ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 07:12:43 -0700 From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... I have never seen any hairpipes in museums that were actually made by Indians. I would suspect that they could and probably did make some. My question is were could I see some early examples of hairpipes of Indian manufacture and how far back do they date? Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:16:52 EDT From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looking for mountain men info in St. Louis for trip In a message dated 98-04-28 23:38:35 EDT, Kat wrote: << Emma, I am here just outside St. Louis. I suggest the Missouri Historical Society Library on Skinker Blvd. in St. Louis (right near Forest Park). I also suggest the bookstore at (under) the Gateway Arch. St. Genevive is the site of the first permanent French settlement. There is also some of Old Town St. Charles (the first capitol) left. Depending on the weekend, I would suggest a day trip to Ft. de Chartres (about 3 hours away). This is a F&I period fort. There are also several 'vous within a few hours. Let me know when you are coming, and I'll see if there is anything special going on. >> Emma, These sights are well worth checking out. The Fort is a little closer than kat describes though. I live on the south end of town, and can be down at the fort in about an hour. Contact me off list if you need directions to any of these places. Longshot ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #62 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.