From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1036 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, May 20 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1036 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: flint question RIP -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks -       Re: MtMan-List: flint question RIP -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks -       Re: MtMan-List: royalists (was: flint) -       Re: MtMan-List: royalists (was: flint) -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks -       Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:11:02 -0500 From: "Frank" Subject: MtMan-List: flint question RIP The expert source of my comments about flint in the U.S. has been requested. That will be found below. First, a little explanation of what I have learned. One of the expert sources I used was the Arkansas State geologist. I sent his full explanation to the MLML then deleted it from my hard drive. I presume those who have not been thrown off the list by TOF for being either: truthful, an Arkansan or a Native American can still find that posting in the archives. In essense he said that there are many and vast deposits of flint in the U.S. Using the accepted texts for geologists he pointed out that there are two types of deposits. One is the nodule type that we Americans generally associated with the white chalk mines found in England. The other is called 'imbedded' and that is what we usually find in America. Entire hillsides or mountains can be made of the stuff. Geologically, the imbedded stuff is termed "chert". But chert is flint. There is no difference except for how it is deposited in the earth. Admittedly, I and most folks I know usually call low grade flint as chert. I always have in the past. But that is an incorrect application of the term. Chert is not a dirty word. Below is my original question to another expert and his response. (the copy & pasting put his answer before my original questions) <<< << ernet.com> cc: Subject: flint question 10/07/2001 01:13 PM A [supposedly] knowledgable individual has stated that there is no flint in the United States. He has made other statements regarding flint which I believe are incorrect. Please answer the following questions. 1) Is flint found naturally in the United States? If, yes, please document and explain briefly where. 2) Flint if left in air will 'dry' out and become brittle. Flint intended for knapping should be stored in water or oil to retain its internal moisture. true or false? >>>> Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 18:14:54 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks In a message dated 5/18/02 10:12:04 AM, deforge1@bright.net writes: <> Instinct. I had a pet coyote and a total of 42 wolves over the years. Traditionally kills were neck bites. That coyote got loose and wiped out 18 chickens and four turkeys, had them partially buried and going after more when I caught him. All were neck bites. One of the wolves wiped out a goat the same way. One wolf, however, got two rabbits without even breaking the skin. She would grab and hold them and then turn them loose - repeatedly. Soon their eyes just went glazed and their hearts stopped. I like dogs - some, anyway, but after the coyote and the wolves they will always be my pet of choice. Cheers Dick James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:09:27 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: flint question RIP Frank, I'm certainly not taking sides on this issue as far as the existence of flint in this country or it's distribution nor do I defend or condemn the actions of former members of mlml or the list owner. But I would point out something of interest. If you read the letter sent you by Ben Crowley USGS Information Technician very carefully and with an open mind you may see that he is being very cavalier about what he calls flint and even so far as to how it is formed. Not that he is trying to deceive but he does appear to be mistaking a question about the scientifically specific question of the rock known as flint in England and elsewhere with the anthropological activity of turning "flint like" rock into useful artifacts. He starts off by identifying flint as a sedimentary rock of silica crystals then includes comments about glass and obsidian as though they are forms of flint when we all know they are not. Perhaps they are made of the same materials i.e.. silica but both are the result of heat sufficient to actually melt and turn the material into a liquid state prior to cooling to the form we know. Much if not all such forms of workable "flint like" rock out west here is a result of volcanic action. In fact in central OR. at Glassy Butte which is a series of hills that once were volcanic cinder cones, you can pick up obsidian that looks like a more gray grade of English Flint. It works as flint does in that it will throw a spark off a steel but it is not flint. It is obsidian. It appears in the same area as black glass obsidian, mahogany colored obsidian and probably other color forms. And perhaps it's opaqueness is what gives it flint like properties to throw a spark because black obsidian will not. Nor will glass. Too pure and too hard. The Indians of this region must have been prolific arrow head makers as various styles of points can be found laying all over the place. Obsidian is not the only material they made points and blades from but it is the most common and they made some very intricate designs too. So it is very desirable stuff for "knapping". I guess what I am suggesting here is that we have to be very careful what we ask of "experts" and then we also have to be very careful of how we read what they tell us. Again, I have no knowledge of whether there is actually true flint deposits in the Americas or not. But the heat generated forms of such rock is not flint but obsidian, etc. in the sense of what we historically call flint. Hell, you can get a good grade of basalt to throw a spark and you can even work it after a fashion by knapping but that don't make it flint. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank" To: "hist_text-digest" Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:11 PM Subject: MtMan-List: flint question RIP > The expert source of my comments about flint in the U.S. has been > requested. That will be found below. > First, a little explanation of what I have learned. One of the expert > sources I used was the Arkansas State geologist. I sent his full explanation > to the MLML then deleted it from my hard drive. I presume those who have not > been thrown off the list by TOF for being either: truthful, an Arkansan or a > Native American can still find that posting in the archives. > In essense he said that there are many and vast deposits of flint in the > U.S. Using the accepted texts for geologists he pointed out that there are > two types of deposits. One is the nodule type that we Americans generally > associated with the white chalk mines found in England. The other is called > 'imbedded' and that is what we usually find in America. Entire hillsides or > mountains can be made of the stuff. Geologically, the imbedded stuff is > termed "chert". But chert is flint. There is no difference except for how it > is deposited in the earth. > Admittedly, I and most folks I know usually call low grade flint as > chert. I always have in the past. But that is an incorrect application of > the term. Chert is not a dirty word. > Below is my original question to another expert and his response. (the > copy & pasting put his answer before my original questions) > <<< > << In reply to your questions regarding flint, or chert as it is also known I > can tell you several things. Flint is a sedimentary rock composed primarily > of extremely fine silica crystals. In other words, it is a quartz composed > of very small fibrous crystals. It is found all over the U.S., especially > in the eastern Appalachian mountains and in the Ozarks. Since flint is > usually found in fairly small deposits, the knowledge of its presence is > usually due to its exposure by previous human occupation and use. In the > west, where obsidian, a much better material for flintknapping, is > available, you therefore have fewer exposed deposits. That is not to say > that they are not there, however. > To address your second question,no, flint does not dry out when exposed to > normal atmospheric air. In fact, normal air has a much higher moisture > content than does flint. Flint actually absorbs moisture when exposed to > air, although at a rate imperceptible over a normal human lifespan. > Archaeologists often use this principal to date stone artifacts by > measuring how much moisture a knapped artifact has absorbed, not lost, over > a period of time. In fact, it is its inherent brittleness that makes it so > useful as a tool. The neolithic southeastern Native American nations in > fact would "cure" or superheat flint cores so as to boil as much moisture > out of them as possible and increase their brittleness. Glass, which is our > most brittle common material used in flintknapping, is in fact the best > material there is. > When flintknapping, the action of the strike is designed to transmit a > conchoidal wave of energy through the material in such a way as to fracture > the stone along this wave. Only very dense, homogenous, hard material can > transmit this wave effectively. Anything soft just disperses the energy and > will not fracture correctly. Please refer to the following webpage offered > by the Arizona State University. It is a fantastic resource for anything > archaeologically related and was a great help to me when I was studying > this in college. > http://archnet.asu.edu/archnet/ > > Ben Crowley > USGS Information Technician > 507 National Center > Reston, VA 20192 > 1-888-Ask-USGS > > > > > "Frank Fusco" > > ernet.com> cc: > Subject: flint question > 10/07/2001 > 01:13 PM > > > > > > A [supposedly] knowledgable individual has stated that there is no > flint > in the United States. He has made other statements regarding flint which I > believe are incorrect. Please answer the following questions. > > 1) Is flint found naturally in the United States? If, yes, please > document and explain briefly where. > > 2) Flint if left in air will 'dry' out and become brittle. Flint > intended for knapping should be stored in water or oil to retain its > internal moisture. true or false? >>>> > > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 20:31:58 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks Mink or ermine, both will kill for pure sport. D >>So will a SKUNK . LP - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 19:56:19 -0700 From: "jay geisinger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C1FEA6.13B8A9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wynn, I would lean towards a feral cat or dog. I have white feathered = chickens amongst others and the nearest neighbor with the same is 17 = miles by road 12 cross country. I have found piles of feathers from = coyote kills over 7 miles from either of us. Last time I started = missing chickens and finding carcass pieces still near the coop it was a = 27lb feral tom and before my son did him in with a well placed load of = buck and ball from his 69 cal. he had taken to killing during the day. PoorBoy - ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C1FEA6.13B8A9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wynn,
 
I would lean towards a feral cat or = dog.  I=20 have white feathered chickens amongst others and the nearest neighbor = with the=20 same is 17 miles by road 12 cross country.  I have found piles of = feathers=20 from coyote kills over 7 miles from either of us.  Last time I = started=20 missing chickens and finding carcass pieces still near the coop it was a = 27lb=20 feral tom and before my son did him in with a well placed load of buck = and ball=20 from his 69 cal. he had taken to killing during the day.
 
PoorBoy
- ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C1FEA6.13B8A9E0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 23:43:33 EDT From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks Wynn, A fine old trapper educated me that the culprit is likely mink or weasel family member - esp. if you reasonably near water. Check around and see if you can find the duck remains stashed anywhere and set up 110's around the carcass in a circle so it has to pass through to get to its stash. Or just in front of it if far enough back in a cubby/hole. You'll get your critter. - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 22:19:34 -0600 From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks Something in the weasel family is my bet Wynn. Todd On Sat, 18 May 2002 09:46:15 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time) "Gretchen & Wynn Ormond" writes: > > Walked out to feed and check the animals this morning and have a > couple of > dead ducks. Around here we have a lot of hawks, owls, and buzzards, > have > also seen/tracked fox, racoon, skunk, coyote, and possibly stray > dogs. The > ground around the ducks is grassy or rather hard on the surface so > there are > few tracks. One duck showed signs of having been bitten around the > neck; > its nearly severed. The other was partially eaten. We still need > to find 3 > other ducks. > > Anyway, my question is if anyone will know which preditors are more > likely > to go after the neck like that? > > Wynn > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 11:45:35 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks WYNN sounds like mink or weasels doing the dirty work---they will kill just for the thrill and the blood of it--- hawk ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 14:19:46 -0600 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks 98% sure it was dogs joe - -- Please visit our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us for spring discounts on hair on deer and elk skins Great selection of elk and buffalo rawhide in stock - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 20:57:33 -0600 From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: royalists (was: flint) > Remember where ever you are currently lost in the fur trade we are either; > about to engage in, in the middle of, or have recently won a war with these > unrepentant royalists. Way too soon to be forgiving their sins or granting > credence to any of their utterances. *ahem* Some of us *are* the unrepentant royalists mentioned above. I would have been loyal to the Sovereign in 1806, and I certainly am now. Tomorrow, I and my compatriots celebrate the anniversary of the birth of Queen Victoria as a national holiday. God save King George III! And God save our gracious Queen of Canada and the Commonwealth, Elizabeth II, who is now in her Golden Jubilee year. Your loyal (and Loyalist) servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 02:33:08 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: royalists (was: flint) Angela, In 1812 The United States and Canada weren't quite as lovey-dovey as today. I was trying to focus the topic back on something related to history not ideological geology. Drink a bottle of that nicely blended Hudson's Bay Rum you've got up there in honor of whichever of your Monarchs you most favor; for me. John... At 09:57 PM 5/19/02, you wrote: >*ahem* Some of us *are* the unrepentant royalists mentioned above. I >would have been loyal to the Sovereign in 1806, and I certainly am now. >Tomorrow, I and my compatriots celebrate the anniversary of the birth of >Queen Victoria as a national holiday. > >God save King George III! >And God save our gracious Queen of Canada and the Commonwealth, >Elizabeth II, who is now in her Golden Jubilee year. > >Your loyal (and Loyalist) servant, >Angela Gottfred > >---------------------- ~~~~~~~ In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:28:33 EDT From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks - --part1_22.28db1350.2a1a45f1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/18/02 11:48:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, leona3@sourceoneinternet.com writes: > The other was partially eaten. We still need to find 3 > other ducks. > > Anyway, my question is if anyone will know which preditors are more likely > to go after the neck like that? > Possum will go for the head and neck and often eat a duck or a chicken from the head down leaving the main body and then kill another and eat the head and neck then kill another etc. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes - --part1_22.28db1350.2a1a45f1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/18/02 11:48:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, leona3@sourceoneinternet.com writes:


The other was partially eaten.  We still need to find 3
other ducks.

Anyway, my question is if anyone will know which preditors are more likely
to go after the neck like that?


Possum will go for the head and neck and often eat a duck or a chicken from the head down leaving the main body and then kill another and eat the head and neck then kill another etc.



Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes - --part1_22.28db1350.2a1a45f1_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:27:46 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks In a message dated 5/20/02 5:31:09 AM, CTOAKES@aol.com writes: << Anyway, my question is if anyone will know which preditors are more likely > to go after the neck like that? > Possum will go for the head and neck >> Naw.... Wynn, I'm thinking it's gotta be a Ranthepoid! (ran'-the-poy-d). That's a big, hairy, three leggid (fourth leg has turned into a large claw) varmint that scares ducks and folks so bad that they can't even run (or quack). They've been know to start with ducks, then take out a whole neighborhood! The onlyest trap that might hold em would be three #6 Newhouse wid teeth..... but be careful of the claw. Iffin I was you though, I'd jist forget about them ducks, grab yer bride and yungins and head out to Nationals for some protection. Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 12:15:30 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time) From: "Gretchen & Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks Hey Magpie, Thanks for the heads up... never knew such a thing existed, but leave it to a wiry old mountain man to be informed about such a critter. I'm a thinking it is a good thing that there is only one neighbor in the "neighborhood", and he might even like it if some thing were to wipe out his herd... wouldn t have to milk em again. You are a true friend for looking out for Wynn's interests and such... especially since Nationals seems to be the only safe place to be. YMOS Wynn's Bride - -------Original Message------- From: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, May 20, 2002 09:28:12 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks In a message dated 5/20/02 5:31:09 AM, CTOAKES@aol.com writes: << Anyway, my question is if anyone will know which preditors are more likely > to go after the neck like that? > Possum will go for the head and neck >> Naw.... Wynn, I'm thinking it's gotta be a Ranthepoid! (ran'-the-poy-d). That's a big, hairy, three leggid (fourth leg has turned into a large claw) varmint that scares ducks and folks so bad that they can't even run (or quack). They've been know to start with ducks, then take out a whole neighborhood! The onlyest trap that might hold em would be three #6 Newhouse wid teeth..... but be careful of the claw. Iffin I was you though, I'd jist forget about them ducks, grab yer bride and yungins and head out to Nationals for some protection. Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 19:00:10 EDT From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Ducks - --part1_145.ebe81d3.2a1ad9fa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last week my sister-in-law saw a fox try and make of with one of her ducks. The fox snatched it up by the neck and ran off. She was able to run it down shouting like a mad woman (which she usually is) and scare it off and save the duck. Mark "Roadkill" Loader - --part1_145.ebe81d3.2a1ad9fa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last week my sister-in-law saw a fox try and make of with one of her ducks. The fox snatched it up by the neck and ran off. She was able to run it down shouting like a mad woman (which she usually is) and scare it off and save the duck.
Mark "Roadkill" Loader - --part1_145.ebe81d3.2a1ad9fa_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1036 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.