From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1057 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, July 9 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1057 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps -       Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps -       Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps -       Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps -       Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps -       Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps -       Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps -       MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver -       Re: MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver -       MtMan-List: Nothing really -       Re: MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:50:55 -0600 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps Shucks, I normally would not jump into this discussion, but I couldn't resist stepping out of lurkdom and adding my two cents in on a discussion I don't know diddly about.... but to add fuel to the fire, there are lots of plants around the intermountain west to make dye out of...a trapper wouldn't have to go far to find some. pinecones, for instance, balsam root, camas, elderberry, any variety of oak, huckleberry, hops, wild rose, willow, and a bunch of others...a lot of these don't really require much to get the dye out, either. I think all of this little list occurred wild somewhere in the area. There are a lot more out there, too. Now I'll slink back into my more "womanly" researches on making things, and who was hooked up with whom, and let the fireworks continue. Sue Stone jandsstone@earthlink.net Windwalker wrote: > > osage orange, persimmon, red oche > > On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:44, John Kramer wrote: > > > Windwalker, > > > > I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the > > Rocky Mountain West. > > > > John... > > > > > > At 10:17 PM 7/8/02, you wrote: > > >grin... they didn't "buy" dye... walnut hulls make a good dye, tis what i use > > >and plant can make a dye.. even indigo > > >Animal fat would be no good as scent of animal is on it.. a severe no no. > > >Any Trapper knows Human scent is a problem with trapping.. > > >Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high heaven > > >Dyeing traps is a accepted practice way before MM era... > > >I will state again No trapper worth his salt modern or old would allow his > > >traps to be > > >used to hang a corn boiler or pot... > > >Anyone that camps primitive style knows how to hang pots with sticks... > > >even another question... why hang them anyway? Reflector rock fires were > > >and are > > >common > > > > > > > > > > > >On 8 Jul 2002 at 19:39, Todd Glover wrote: > > > > > > > Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing > > > > their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye > > > > and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their > > > > traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat. > > > > But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the > > > > trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was > > > > largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet > > > > unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with > > > > other species. > > > > Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare > > > > among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them > > > > dripping in your stew at least. > > > > > > > > Teton > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" > > > > writes: > > > > > Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting. > > > > > Also dying. it helps kill the scent. > > > > > As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so. > > > > > But Im sure some did. > > > > > Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the > > > > > rust > > > > > ans kill the scent as best as possible. > > > > > One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap" > > > > > Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls > > > > > ect > > > > > The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being > > > > > made > > > > > at the time and were in high demand. > > > > > Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era. > > > > > {See Williamsburg Journals} > > > > > Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only. > > > > > The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the > > > > > dye.. > > > > > And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the > > > > > trap > > > > > .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice" when wax was available. > > > > > Wax sealed traps from rust for shipment, when the traps were being > > > > > made in volume. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, tetontodd@juno.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > WindWalker, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered > > > > > about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is > > > > > common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that > > > > > they did it historically? Just curious. > > > > > > > > > > > > Teton > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > > hist_text list info: > > > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > hist_text list info: > > > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 > > > > http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > John T. Kramer, maker of: > > > > Kramer's Best Antique Improver > > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > > >>>As good as old!<<< > > > > > > > > mail to: > > 816-252-9512 voice > > 816-252-9121 fax > > Kramer Products, Inc. > > POB 8715 > > Sugar Creek, MO 64054 > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:57:10 -0600 From: Ole Jensen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps on 7/9/02 10:44 AM, John Kramer at kramer@kramerize.com wrote: > Windwalker, > > I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the > Rocky Mountain West. > > John... > > > At 10:17 PM 7/8/02, you wrote: >> grin... they didn't "buy" dye... walnut hulls make a good dye, tis what i use >> and plant can make a dye.. even indigo >> Animal fat would be no good as scent of animal is on it.. a severe no no. >> Any Trapper knows Human scent is a problem with trapping.. >> Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high heaven >> Dyeing traps is a accepted practice way before MM era... >> I will state again No trapper worth his salt modern or old would allow his >> traps to be >> used to hang a corn boiler or pot... >> Anyone that camps primitive style knows how to hang pots with sticks... >> even another question... why hang them anyway? Reflector rock fires were >> and are >> common >> >> >> >> On 8 Jul 2002 at 19:39, Todd Glover wrote: >> >>> Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing >>> their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye >>> and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their >>> traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat. >>> But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the >>> trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was >>> largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet >>> unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with >>> other species. >>> Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare >>> among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them >>> dripping in your stew at least. >>> >>> Teton >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" >>> writes: >>>> Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting. >>>> Also dying. it helps kill the scent. >>>> As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so. >>>> But Im sure some did. >>>> Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the >>>> rust >>>> ans kill the scent as best as possible. >>>> One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap" >>>> Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls >>>> ect >>>> The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being >>>> made >>>> at the time and were in high demand. >>>> Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era. >>>> {See Williamsburg Journals} >>>> Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only. >>>> The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the >>>> dye.. >>>> And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the >>>> trap >>>> .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice" when wax was available. >>>> Wax sealed traps from rust for shipment, when the traps were being >>>> made in volume. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, tetontodd@juno.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> WindWalker, >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered >>>> about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is >>>> common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that >>>> they did it historically? Just curious. >>>>> >>>>> Teton >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------- >>>>> hist_text list info: >>>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------- >>>> hist_text list info: >>>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >>>> >>> >>> >>> "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 >>> http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html >>> >>> ---------------------- >>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > John T. Kramer, maker of: > > Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>> It makes wood wonderful<<< >>>> As good as old!<<< > > > > mail to: > 816-252-9512 voice > 816-252-9121 fax > Kramer Products, Inc. > POB 8715 > Sugar Creek, MO 64054 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Hello the camp, It must be a slow week, I read the article and took it with a grain of salt. Using a trap for cooking I would never do only because it would be cumbersom and there are manny ways that would work better (rope,thong,stick,chain). Every time you set the trap it gets wet and starts to rust, so who needs dye? The whole article and this discussion supposes that trapers from the period invented backpacking. Most trappers from the period were in parties with 2 to 3 animals per man and as I have mentioned in the past "the reason for lots of pack animals is to haul out there catch". Ole - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:27:56 -0400 From: "Windwalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps Bless your heart On 9 Jul 2002 at 12:50, James and Sue Stone wrote: > Shucks, I normally would not jump into this discussion, but I > couldn't resist stepping out of lurkdom and adding my two cents > in on a discussion I don't know diddly about.... but to add fuel > to the fire, there are lots of plants around the intermountain > west to make dye out of...a trapper wouldn't have to go far to > find some. > > pinecones, for instance, balsam root, camas, elderberry, any > variety of oak, huckleberry, hops, wild rose, willow, and a > bunch of others...a lot of these don't really require much to get > the dye out, either. I think all of this little list occurred > wild somewhere in the area. There are a lot more out there, too. > > Now I'll slink back into my more "womanly" researches on making > things, and who was hooked up with whom, and let the fireworks > continue. > > Sue Stone > jandsstone@earthlink.net > > Windwalker wrote: > > > > osage orange, persimmon, red oche > > > > On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:44, John Kramer wrote: > > > > > Windwalker, > > > > > > I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the > > > Rocky Mountain West. > > > > > > John... > > > > > > > > > At 10:17 PM 7/8/02, you wrote: > > > >grin... they didn't "buy" dye... walnut hulls make a good dye, tis what i use > > > >and plant can make a dye.. even indigo > > > >Animal fat would be no good as scent of animal is on it.. a severe no no. > > > >Any Trapper knows Human scent is a problem with trapping.. > > > >Mountain men in field didn't bathe.. and One would guess stink to high heaven > > > >Dyeing traps is a accepted practice way before MM era... > > > >I will state again No trapper worth his salt modern or old would allow his > > > >traps to be > > > >used to hang a corn boiler or pot... > > > >Anyone that camps primitive style knows how to hang pots with sticks... > > > >even another question... why hang them anyway? Reflector rock fires were > > > >and are > > > >common > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On 8 Jul 2002 at 19:39, Todd Glover wrote: > > > > > > > > > Likewise, I have never read a reference to Mountaineers dyeing or waxing > > > > > their traps. If they did in any appreciable amount, one would expect dye > > > > > and wax to show up on trade lists. How then did they care for their > > > > > traps? Perhaps a logical option would be to grease them with animal fat. > > > > > But wouldn't this frighten the beaver away? Perhaps. I wonder if the > > > > > trapper wasn't so "adapted" to the environment, that his human smell was > > > > > largely camouflaged? Or perhaps the beaver of that time were as of yet > > > > > unafraid of the white human smell, I know there are accounts of this with > > > > > other species. > > > > > Anyway, I suspect the practice of dyeing and waxing traps was very rare > > > > > among the Rocky Mountain trappers. Wouldn't have to worry about them > > > > > dripping in your stew at least. > > > > > > > > > > Teton > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 "Windwalker" > > > > > writes: > > > > > > Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting. > > > > > > Also dying. it helps kill the scent. > > > > > > As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so. > > > > > > But Im sure some did. > > > > > > Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the > > > > > > rust > > > > > > ans kill the scent as best as possible. > > > > > > One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap" > > > > > > Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls > > > > > > ect > > > > > > The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being > > > > > > made > > > > > > at the time and were in high demand. > > > > > > Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era. > > > > > > {See Williamsburg Journals} > > > > > > Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only. > > > > > > The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the > > > > > > dye.. > > > > > > And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the > > > > > > trap > > > > > > .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice" when wax was available. > > > > > > Wax sealed traps from rust for shipment, when the traps were being > > > > > > made in volume. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, tetontodd@juno.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > WindWalker, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered > > > > > > about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is > > > > > > common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that > > > > > > they did it historically? Just curious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teton > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > > > hist_text list info: > > > > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > > hist_text list info: > > > > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 > > > > > http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com/TetonTodd.html > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > John T. Kramer, maker of: > > > > > > Kramer's Best Antique Improver > > > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > > > >>>As good as old!<<< > > > > > > > > > > > > mail to: > > > 816-252-9512 voice > > > 816-252-9121 fax > > > Kramer Products, Inc. > > > POB 8715 > > > Sugar Creek, MO 64054 > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:31:45 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps Windwalker, Hedge and persimmon are also not native to the Rocky Mountains, red ochre can be found in a few areas. Sue Stone has listed a number of native specie that could be used for dyeing. As you are certain the Rocky Mountaineers dyed and waxed their traps. What did they use? It is unlikely it would have been walnut, indigo, osage or persimmon. Red ochre is iron oxide so how is that much different than rust on a trap? John... At 12:19 PM 7/9/02, you wrote: >osage orange, persimmon, red oche > >On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:44, John Kramer wrote: > > > Windwalker, > > > > I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the > > Rocky Mountain West. > > > > John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:25:28 -0600 From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps Osage Orange and persimmon are also not in the Rocky Mountain West. These are mid-west and eastern plants found in most areas that would have the walnut. Don't know what Red oche is? Bead Shooter - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Windwalker" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:19 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps > osage orange, persimmon, red oche > > On 9 Jul 2002 at 11:44, John Kramer wrote: > > > Windwalker, > > > > I am not familiar with any native walnut trees or indigo plants in the > > Rocky Mountain West. > > > > John... - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:23:40 -0500 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps "Don't know what Red oche is?" Red ochre is the proper spelling. It is a pigment. Lanney From Webster Dictionary: red ochre: a red earthy hematite used as a pigment. hematite:a mineral constituting an important iron ore and occurring in crystals or red earthy form. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:28:51 -0600 From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps Thanks Lanney. I thought it was either ochre or someone trying to spell oak, since the topic was discussing plants for dye. Bead Shooter - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:23 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyeing and Waxing Traps > "Don't know what Red oche is?" > > Red ochre is the proper spelling. It is a pigment. > Lanney > > From Webster Dictionary: > red ochre: a red earthy hematite used as a pigment. > > hematite:a mineral constituting an important iron ore and occurring in > crystals or red earthy form. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:36:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Subject: MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver A few more answers to some of the questions. There are no references to dyeing or waxing traps in any mountain man journals that I have ever read and I've read a lot of them. No references, zip, zero, nada! You got one? Show the list. Mountainmen did not dye and certainly did not wax traps. Never seen it ever in print, ever. They bought traps, chains and spare springs. Trap setting tools were and are for big weaklings. One more thing to carry, they didn't use them unless they were lame or one armed. Windwalker I've never heard of a slider set being used in the Mountainman era. Slider sets take wire and long wire. Wrong era. Unless your refering to a slide set that runs down a long dead pole? Beaver traps are set under the water. Don't have to be died, don't have to be even covered. No animal will ever learn to smell scent under the water unless its a fish. This is why the prison escapees always headed for the creek when the bloodhounds are after them in the old movies. Some areas of the west and northwest do indeed have animals that have never seen a human and have not been conditioned to fear man. I have four handforged traps, three originals and one reproduction. They get rained on, set in rivers and sit outdoors days at a time. They do not rust. Whatever light surface rust collects on them can be rubbed off by hand. Mountainmen did not go lilly footing through the forest searching for just the right type and color of flower to dye their trap a perfect hue of lavender. They went searching through the woods for beaver and they killed them whenever they found them in anyway possible at all times of the year. And like I said before, if you think otherwise you are a dreamer! No trapper, period! Would ever set a trap over or near or even think about using a trap to hang a pot over a hot campfire. Ever! Unless he's a one armed lame beaver trapper who can't set it anyway. I know all the great trappers in Montana and not a one would ever do it. Never, ever. Whenever you set a trap for beaver you set and spring it 2 or 3 times to loosen up the jaws and that is only if its not been set or sprung for a few months. Ain't a beaver alive that can't be caught in a foothold trap especially a blind set. Ain't a beaver alive that knows what a snare is! I won't mention 330 conibear traps cause they are not period correct. Besides 330's are for beginner beaver trappers. That is a whole other discussion that does not belong on this web site. I have caught, snared, and shot hundreds if not a thousand beaver in my 25 years of trapping. All you need are several good footholds to catch a ton of beaver. You catch the first couple with blind sets or use willows for bait. After that you make your own "bate" using the recipe out of the L&C Journal.(it was recorded while at Clatsop) If you don't have traps the mountainmen hunted beaver. They shot them by the thousands! Beaver come out at dusk and can be hunted then and in the morning.(all night in a full moon) And they swam for a dead one if they had to. (we have laws to follow now unlike the MM, though some states still let you shoot beaver, check your local laws) And for you dreamers that actually think mountainmen trapped only when furs were prime and practiced conservation, like letting streams rest or skipping a stream for a year. Give me a break! While you're in your camp being the conservationist telling Yarns and baking cobblers in your Dutch ovens the next brigade are trapping the beaver. They started killing beaver right out of St. Louis. Then they had to go to western Missouri, soon they where in the Dakota's, then Montana, then to the west coast and the southwest. Why? Not to see more pretty scenery. Because the easily caught beaver were all dead and on top of some dandy's hat in Paris or London in the form of a felt top hat. They had to migrate around to find more beaver. In the process they discovered and mapped a nation. Until you have trapped 20-30 or more beaver and your hands are cracked and bleeding from the ice cold water and mud. And you have spent hours upon hours skinning and fleshing their hides until your back aches and your hands are caked in blood, you cannot understand what these men went through or begin to understand how tough and determined they were. If your weren't a trapper then, you catered to them. Beaver were the bottom line. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:43:07 -0400 From: "Windwalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver hat was said in earlier posts? huh?? Im awaiting a fax on the documentation.. Im very well aware of trapping methods in all areas. as its been mostly my income for my adult life. One don't find reference to what they wiped their cans with after a dump, so by theory is safe to say they didn't cause no modern published books have refernece to it? Your thosands of beaver have no refernece to whats at hand.. nor my 50+yrs at the craft.. When faxed the document I want will only post it. Otherwise this ends it. Someone is beginning to sound like TOF and it aint me. And if ya aint seen a beaver slide...ya aint a trapper. finis On 9 Jul 2002 at 19:36, beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: > A few more answers to some of the questions. > There are no references to dyeing or waxing traps in any mountain man > journals that I have ever read and I've read a lot of them. No references, > zip, zero, nada! You got one? Show the list. Mountainmen did not dye and > certainly did not wax traps. Never seen it ever in print, ever. They > bought traps, chains and spare springs. Trap setting tools were and are > for big weaklings. One more thing to carry, they didn't use them unless > they were lame or one armed. Windwalker I've never heard of a slider set > being used in the Mountainman era. Slider sets take wire and long wire. > Wrong era. Unless your refering to a slide set that runs down a long dead > pole? > Beaver traps are set under the water. Don't have to be died, don't have > to be even covered. No animal will ever learn to smell scent under the > water unless its a fish. This is why the prison escapees always headed for > the creek when the bloodhounds are after them in the old movies. > Some areas of the west and northwest do indeed have animals that have > never seen a human and have not been conditioned to fear man. > I have four handforged traps, three originals and one reproduction. > They get rained on, set in rivers and sit outdoors days at a time. They do > not rust. Whatever light surface rust collects on them can be rubbed off > by hand. Mountainmen did not go lilly footing through the forest searching > for just the right type and color of flower to dye their trap a perfect > hue of lavender. They went searching through the woods for beaver and they > killed them whenever they found them in anyway possible at all times of > the year. And like I said before, if you think otherwise you are a dreamer! > No trapper, period! Would ever set a trap over or near or even think > about using a trap to hang a pot over a hot campfire. Ever! Unless he's a > one armed lame beaver trapper who can't set it anyway. I know all the > great trappers in Montana and not a one would ever do it. Never, ever. > Whenever you set a trap for beaver you set and spring it 2 or 3 times > to loosen up the jaws and that is only if its not been set or sprung for a > few months. Ain't a beaver alive that can't be caught in a foothold trap > especially a blind set. Ain't a beaver alive that knows what a snare is! I > won't mention 330 conibear traps cause they are not period correct. > Besides 330's are for beginner beaver trappers. That is a whole other > discussion that does not belong on this web site. > I have caught, snared, and shot hundreds if not a thousand beaver in > my 25 years of trapping. All you need are several good footholds to catch > a ton of beaver. You catch the first couple with blind sets or use willows > for bait. After that you make your own "bate" using the recipe out of the > L&C Journal.(it was recorded while at Clatsop) If you don't have traps the > mountainmen hunted beaver. They shot them by the thousands! Beaver come > out at dusk and can be hunted then and in the morning.(all night in a full > moon) And they swam for a dead one if they had to. (we have laws to follow > now unlike the MM, though some states still let you shoot beaver, check > your local laws) > And for you dreamers that actually think mountainmen trapped only when > furs were prime and practiced conservation, like letting streams rest or > skipping a stream for a year. Give me a break! While you're in your camp > being the conservationist telling Yarns and baking cobblers in your Dutch > ovens the next brigade are trapping the beaver. They started killing > beaver right out of St. Louis. Then they had to go to western Missouri, > soon they where in the Dakota's, then Montana, then to the west coast and > the southwest. Why? Not to see more pretty scenery. Because the easily > caught beaver were all dead and on top of some dandy's hat in Paris or > London in the form of a felt top hat. They had to migrate around to find > more beaver. In the process they discovered and mapped a nation. > Until you have trapped 20-30 or more beaver and your hands are cracked > and bleeding from the ice cold water and mud. And you have spent hours > upon hours skinning and fleshing their hides until your back aches and > your hands are caked in blood, you cannot understand what these men went > through or begin to understand how tough and determined they were. If your > weren't a trapper then, you catered to them. Beaver were the bottom line. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:48:15 -0400 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: MtMan-List: Nothing really This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C2279A.B6388740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable God, I hate flatlanders. D ]Ay! They come! They come! Wi' skirl o' pipe an' beat o' drum A' braw lads o' Scotia's blood Tho' far awa' frae bens an' muirs Tae follow the lad o' Cameron line Clasping Targe an' Claymore Wi' courage an' pride They battle as warriors o' auld A' yells makes blood run cauld Wild Highlanders! Wild Highlanders! Intae tha fray! Stand an' hold Scotia! Scotia Mo Chridhe! For ay! - - Kathleen Calhoun=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C2279A.B6388740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
God, I hate flatlanders.
 
D
]Ay! They come! They come!
Wi' skirl = o' pipe an'=20 beat o' drum
A' braw lads o' Scotia's blood
Tho' far awa' frae = bens an'=20 muirs
Tae follow the lad o' Cameron line
Clasping Targe an'=20 Claymore
Wi' courage an' pride
They battle as warriors o' = auld
A' yells=20 makes blood run cauld
Wild Highlanders! Wild Highlanders!
Intae = tha fray!=20 Stand an' hold
Scotia! Scotia Mo Chridhe! For ay!
 
- Kathleen Calhoun
 
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C2279A.B6388740-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:22:34 -0400 From: "traprjon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few more answers to some questions about beaver BeaverBoy, Most of what you say is true. However, the delivery could be a little less offensive to those less knowledgeable than yourself. > ""I have caught, snared, and shot hundreds if not a thousand beaver in > my 25 years of trapping. All you need are several good footholds to catch > a ton of beaver."" Sounds like you have many good years of experience. I have been a trapper for almost as long and have quit jobs (in the past) to go trappin when critters were worth cash money. In years when they weren't (more often than not), I trapped anyway (still do) because of a love of nature, critters and the sport. I have been a Trapper Education Instructor in NH for 6 or 8 years and more importantly have trapped 150 to 200 plus beavers per season, for years, with foothold traps. That's including skinning, fleshing and stretching them!!! I learned to beaver trap through the ice, many times having to "spud" through 30" plus thick ice in 0 degree and less temperatures to check traps, something I don't believe many if any mountain man ever did. I have trapped hundreds of beaver in all seasons with foot hold traps and have some skill and knowledge of it. So I guess that entitles me to my say here too. > ""Until you have trapped 20-30 or more beaver and your hands are cracked > and bleeding from the ice cold water and mud. And you have spent hours > upon hours skinning and fleshing their hides until your back aches and > your hands are caked in blood, you cannot understand what these men went > through or begin to understand how tough and determined they were."" Been there, done that, as have you. As you pointed out though, a lot of trappin was done in the more mild seasons because beaver used for felting don't need to be prime and ice was a problem. > ""I won't mention 330 conibear traps cause they are not period correct. > Besides 330's are for beginner beaver trappers. That is a whole other > discussion that does not belong on this web site."" I use mostly 330's for beaver today for a variety of reasons and I'm hardly a beginner. If the 330 discussion doesn't belong on this list, neither does your comment regarding them. > ""Trap setting tools were and are > for big weaklings. One more thing to carry, > they didn't use them unless they were lame or one armed."" I use a 330 setting tool on the trap line for safety reasons these days and consider the extra weight worth it. I am still able to set 330's, 220's and number 5 Bridger double long spring traps by hand. I know good trappers in their 60's that have arthritis who can't set some of these traps by hand anymore. However, they are still good trappers. I have 2 reasons for this post. First, there is no good reason to insult anyone as you have in especially the last two statements I referenced from your post. Secondly, you are obviously a very experienced trapper who has paid his "dues". Correct me if I'm wrong (Mr Rudy), this list is a place for less experienced people to be able to get some knowledge through discussion with people such as yourself, BeaverBoy, who have experience at a particular skill or trade. That purpose is best accomplished by people being respectful of and to others. Those that don't have your vast experience may well say something or express an opinion that you consider "stupid", when in fact they weren't born with the knowledge any more than you or I were. I would much rather read an intelligent and non-offensive post about anything, than to read a post wherein it looks like everyone with a particular skill (like trappin) appears to be arrogant and belittling to those who don't know or even to those of us that do!!! That's how my stick floats. To the list: I apologize for my lack of restraint in my response to BeaverBoy. I hope I didn't do what I just asked others not to do. YMHS John Enos traprjon@attbi.com ***************************************************************** "We The People, are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution." - -- Abraham Lincoln **************************************************************** "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere, restrains evil interference. They deserve a place of honor with all that is good." --George Washington *************************************************************** - ----- Aux Aliments de Pays!!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1057 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.