From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1107 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, November 8 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1107 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Beaverboy and the long wait -       MtMan-List: WAS: Trade Musket NOW Tulle style guns -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       MtMan-List: gun waiting -       MtMan-List: custom rifles -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaverboy and the long wait -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun -       Re: MtMan-List: Socks -       Re: MtMan-List: Socks -       MtMan-List: Tip's for Priming the Pan -       Re: MtMan-List: Tip's for Priming the Pan -       Re: MtMan-List: Tip's for Priming the Pan -       MtMan-List: buffalo hunt/shoot -       Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens -       MtMan-List: touch hole liners -       Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens -       Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun -       Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun -       MtMan-List: Montana... -       Re: MtMan-List: gun waiting ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:23:15 -0500 From: "David Brown" Subject: MtMan-List: Beaverboy and the long wait I have to agree with Mr. Branson. You think it's easy Beaverboy, try building one. Even in "kit" form there's a hell of a lot of work left to be done. Ever mortise a lock? Ever try to get a rear ramrod thimble just right? Ever inlet a fancy butt plate? I'm just beginning to build and sell a few guns, and I can see Branson is right. If you want to make even a modest salary at it, you're going to have to charge a few thou per gun. The good semi custom makers have whittled the process down to where they have to survive on volume, and still the guns are pushing $1,000 or better in finished form. Now you want to complain about having to wait? Well, start looking for a small volume, self-employed builder and see what he says about price. Ya can't have it both ways. Sincerely, Two Crows P.S. I'd like to hear an explanation of how to cone a touch hole from inside the barrel. Mike Branson wrote: Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:32:17 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Branson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket Normally I don't reply to the various articles I read in this web site as I usually don't have time. this particular letter caused me to want to respond to "Beaver Boy". Sir, I have been building custom rifles since 1972, I have been wearing buckskins since 1973. I'm just retiring from a lifetime of teaching high school history. I currently have 5 rifle orders on the bench waiting to be completed. The oldest is 1.5 years old. I have already built and delivered 7 rifles and 4 pistols all flintlock some with carving all with engraving Since last spring. My prices are higher than ever. Yet I have more orders than ever before. I used to build a rifle a month in the 1970s. Now it takes 5 weeks of working 8-10 hours per day to build a rifle. I use only a hand held electric drill. All other tools are hand tools. I build them The old fashioned way. I have always felt that if you want a rifle that looks like a gun from the 18-19 century then build it with 18th century tools and techniques. It takes a long time to build guns in such a manner. Especially if I want to charge even close to what it costs in labor and materials for such a gun. I figure with a skill like mine I'm worth at least $50-75 per hour. My plumber and car mechanic make more and have less skill with tools. I can hand file a hinge with no gaps. My plumber can't do that. At a cost of 50-75 per hour I end up usually charging between 3-5 thousand dollars per rifle. Yes that sounds like a lot but it is not. Not when people make 35-75 thousand per year and up. I know a factory worker in Ohio who works with his wife and the two of them together make 140,000. per year. Houses in Colorado sell on the average for 150-200 thousand dollars. New trucks cost 30+ per vehicle. I hate to be critical but a 4500 dollar rifle at modern wages is a lot less than a 20 dollar rifle was to a farmer in 1810 who only made 80 dollars per year. Everyone is free to shoot what ever they want but if you want a fine rifle that shoots plumb center, and you want it to look exactly like the ones actually carried by the trappers and you want it to be ast dependable as thy're guns were then you should order a fine hand made rifle and expect to wait anywhere from 12 -24 months for it. I have been waiting on a custom barrel from a famous maker for 14 months now and I know he like me, works every day all day clear up into the evening. One should walk a mile in my moccasins before one throws stones. This most recent rifle I'm finishing this week I worked on for the last 2 evenings clear until 9:30pm on + all day. have a good day. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:26:10 EST From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: WAS: Trade Musket NOW Tulle style guns The English Trade guns you refer to will look like a tulle. That was done on purpose b/c the natives trusted that style of gun. Hey, when in business, go with what works! - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:28:54 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket - --part1_103.1ecbe1ed.2afc3516_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Normally I don't reply to the various articles I read in this web site as I usually don't have time. this particular >letter caused me to want to respond to "Beaver Boy". >Now it takes 5 weeks of working 8-10 hours per day to build a rifle. I use only a hand held electric drill. All >other tools are hand tools. I build them The old fashioned way. >One should walk a mile in my moccasins before one throws stones. Mike, I'm glad you responded. Some folks are bigger in the opinion area than education area. Everyone thinks that these gunmakers have big factories with lots of employees and they make gross overgeneralizations. You have well stated what it takes to make a scratch gun. Matt and Toni from TVM are good friends of mine. They work out of a 2 car garage, the front half being the store and the back half being the shop. They have 2 builders, a filer, and a finisher. Every one of their guns starts with a chunk of wood. Matt makes all the stocks....they don't use precarved ones. They chisel away at wood like everyone else. Each gun is made to the customers specs. You can choose the LOP and drop, what components you want on the gun, type of finish, etc. They work 12 hours days, and make over 600 guns a year, that's about 3 guns per day for a 5 day work week. When you consider the time required to build a gun and raw parts running from $500-$700 per gun, their guns, beginning priced at $800, are one of the best bargains out there............and by folks who are working their butts off to make a living. Dave Kanger - --part1_103.1ecbe1ed.2afc3516_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Normally I don't reply to the various articles I read in this web site as I usually don't have time. this particular >letter caused me to want to respond to "Beaver Boy". 
>Now it takes 5 weeks of working 8-10 hours per day to build a rifle. I use only a hand held electric drill. All >other tools are hand tools. I build them The old fashioned way.
>One should walk a mile in my moccasins before one throws stones.

Mike,
I'm glad you responded.  Some folks are bigger in the opinion area than education area.
Everyone thinks that these gunmakers have big factories with lots of employees and they make gross overgeneralizations.  You have well stated what it takes to make a scratch gun.

Matt and Toni from TVM are good friends of mine.  They work out of a 2 car garage, the front half being the store and the back half being the shop.  They have 2 builders, a filer, and a finisher.  Every one of their guns starts with a chunk of wood.  Matt makes all the stocks....they don't use precarved ones.  They chisel away at wood like everyone else.  Each gun is made to the customers specs.  You can choose the LOP and drop, what components you want on the gun, type of finish, etc.  They work 12 hours days, and make over 600 guns a year, that's about 3 guns per day for a 5 day work week.  When you consider the time required to build a gun and raw parts running from $500-$700 per gun, their guns, beginning priced at $800, are one of the best bargains out there............and by folks who are working their butts off to make a living.

Dave Kanger - --part1_103.1ecbe1ed.2afc3516_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:32:10 EST From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket A comment was made from someone about TVM and touchhole liners vs. no liner.. This was a reply. << Touch hole liners- can't comment on that BUT are you complaining that your barrel isn't hand forged? >> TVM will use whatever barrel you are dying to have on your gun, but their barrels are handforged - at least that is what Toni says to me. Guns are made on first-come first-serve basis. I paid mine off early...didn't matter. Offered to pay extra - didn't matter. Toni says she and Matt just will not let a gun go that they are not satisfied with. Guess that makes sense if you stand by your product like they do - have it right going out and that makes for little in the returns dept. I am getting a Tulle from them. Cost with shipping and extra 2" barrel length...$830. Wait. 11 months and change. Worth it? From what I have seen of every other TVM gun, I am betting on it. - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:37:11 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: gun waiting Beaverboy said, <12 month's is too long to wait for anything> Not from a good custom gun builder who is not in the business full-time. Some guys build only a couple a year and spend the rest of their time enjoying life. But from a factory like TVM, that definately is excessive by about eleven months. Its your right to not like vent liners but as to their being "unhistorical" there were a lot of guns from Europe and built here by immigrants that utilized liners, often of platinum or gold to prevent burn-out. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:45:37 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: custom rifles Beaverboy also said, That sure is an interesting conversation opener. I would love to know the answer. As a percentage of the U.S. population, us traditionalists are a teensy-weeny tiny number. But that total number might be impressive. I dunno. Mebbe the whole country has not been overrun by those who buy their 'muzzle loaders' in bubble wrap packages off the shelf at Discount World. The membership of NMLRA has been static for quite a few years but other smaller reenactment type organizations seem to be thriving, if not growing. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:11:15 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket > A comment was made from someone about TVM and touchhole liners vs. no liner.. > This was a reply. > << Touch hole liners- can't comment on that BUT are you > complaining that your barrel isn't hand forged? >> J. Manton is credited as being the first to use a "platinum" touch hole liner in 1805. There are numerous historical references in the account books of gunsmiths to touch holes being rebushed. To see a period tool and explanation of how barrels were internally coned go to: http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/conedhole.htm > TVM will use whatever barrel you are dying to have on your gun, but their > barrels are handforged - at least that is what Toni says to me. I think you misunderstood her. They ain't and I don't think she told you that. To my knowledge Eric Kettenburg, the Houses and the gunsmiths at Colonial Williamsburg are the only ones who offer hand forged barrels today. And you will pay dearly for them. > Guns are made on first-come first-serve basis. I paid mine off > early...didn't matter. Offered to pay extra - didn't matter. Guns are done on a first come, first served basis. They travel to the indoor trade shows in the spring and go to Friendship and Ft. Bridger, among others. They may take 50-100 orders for guns at each show. To think they can complete them in a month, as stated by someone else, is ludicrous. It don't take them that long to build a gun, it just takes time until your turn comes up in the queue. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:23:10 +0000 From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket J. Manton is credited as being the first to use a "platinum" touch hole liner in 1805.  There are numerous historical references in the account books of gunsmiths to touch holes being rebushed. Sure glad to hear that... I've got a dbl brl flinter in the Manton style(least that's what I thought it was) that has "platinum" liners in it. Hate to trash it just because the touch holes were wrong... you saved it from the garbage heap with that comment! Dios, Libertad y Tejas Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." General Ethan Allen Hitchcock _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:54:28 -0600 From: windwalker Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaverboy and the long wait On Thursday 07 November 2002 03:23 pm, David Brown wrote: > I have to agree with Mr. Branson. You think it's easy Beaverboy, try > building one. Even in "kit" form there's a hell of a lot of work left t= o be > done. Ever mortise a lock? Ever try to get a rear ramrod thimble just > right? Ever inlet a fancy butt plate? I'm just beginning to build and s= ell > a few guns, and I can see Branson is right. If you want to make even a > modest salary at it, you're going to have to charge a few thou per gun. > > The good semi custom makers have whittled the process down to where the= y > have to survive on volume, and still the guns are pushing $1,000 or bet= ter > in finished form. Now you want to complain about having to wait? Well, > start looking for a small volume, self-employed builder and see what he > says about price. > > Ya can't have it both ways. > > In the eary days of ML 50,s 60,s.. A One year wait was nothing.. Cost of $2000 from Premium makers was the norm. Even getting a Bill Large Barrel could have a wait of 6-8 months And Bills prices were based on his whim for the day.. {I know I worked for him} With the advent of popularity of Turner Kirklands "kit" guns prices star= ted=20 to drop. Is a Premier Makes gun Worth say $2800 and 12 month wait?? Hell Yes! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:06:32 EST From: Wahkahchim@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket 
What's the TVM website?

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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:11:58 -0700
From: Les Chaffin 
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket

the site is http://www.avsia.com/tvm/garner.htm

Wahkahchim@aol.com wrote:

>
What's the TVM website?
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>  
>



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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:23:11 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun

In a message dated 11/6/02 11:36:51 AM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:

<< A friend of mine recently found a length of trade gun barrel along

the banks of the Teton River here in Montana >>

Beaverboy..... that sounds like the one Walt Foster showed me a while back in 
Billings... was that the one you saw??? I thought it was pretty darn neat too!

Magpie

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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:17:38 -0700
From: "Clay J. Landry" 
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Socks

In the achieves of this list should be several posts that list quite a bit
of documentation of trappers using socks-If I remember correctly the posts
are under the title "socks and Mocs"

Clay Landry
Moorhead MT
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Les Chaffin 
To: Mountain Man List 
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 11:25 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Socks


> I am making a pair of new mocs and was wondering if the trappers wore
> sock?  I have not read anything that has said.  What do you think?
>
> Les Chaffin
> Green River, Wy
>
>
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> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:33:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Branson 
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Socks

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 Concerning the comments about shooters and custom gun orders. Yes, the NMLRA membership is staying static which is good it means the organization is growing. Several years ago the NMLRA determined that the average length of time to stay a member was about 5-7 years. Which means every year some folks get bored and change hobbies. Which also means that every year  new folks start joining and want to own a rifle. If the membership is static then we are gaining as many as we are losing. A lot of my customers are not members of any black powder organization. They are just gun collectors who collect antique guns, or they are folks who decided they wanted to own a flintlock long rifle. As far as the comments about how long it takes to build a fine hand made rifle. I can't speak for others. I work at it pretty hard and I don't have any employees. Just me, I do all the lock filing, polishing, inletting shaping and finish work. I personally feel that 11-12 months to wait on a rifle from a single maker like myself or from TVM is a good deal. If I attended all the shows TVM goes to and took orders I would be overwhelmed with work. I 'm very happy to keep the small number of orders I now have. I know another builder in Ohio who would prefer to go un-named who builds one rifle per month. I can build one about every 4-5 weeks. I think that is about the norm. I'm sure if I had a set up like some of the spanish shotgun makers like A&A then I could turn out guns faster. But I like things the way they are. I don't advertize but you might take a look at the CLA (Contemporary Long Rifle Association) Website. There are some mighty fine guns for sale there from some very good builders. 



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 Concerning the comments about shooters and custom gun orders. Yes, the NMLRA membership is staying static which is good it means the organization is growing. Several years ago the NMLRA determined that the average length of time to stay a member was about 5-7 years. Which means every year some folks get bored and change hobbies. Which also means that every year  new folks start joining and want to own a rifle. If the membership is static then we are gaining as many as we are losing. A lot of my customers are not members of any black powder organization. They are just gun collectors who collect antique guns, or they are folks who decided they wanted to own a flintlock long rifle. As far as the comments about how long it takes to build a fine hand made rifle. I can't speak for others. I work at it pretty hard and I don't have any employees. Just me, I do all the lock filing, polishing, inletting shaping and finish work. I personally feel that 11-12 months to wait on a rifle from a single maker like myself or from TVM is a good deal. If I attended all the shows TVM goes to and took orders I would be overwhelmed with work. I 'm very happy to keep the small number of orders I now have. I know another builder in Ohio who would prefer to go un-named who builds one rifle per month. I can build one about every 4-5 weeks. I think that is about the norm. I'm sure if I had a set up like some of the spanish shotgun makers like A&A then I could turn out guns faster. But I like things the way they are. I don't advertize but you might take a look at the CLA (Contemporary Long Rifle Association) Website. There are some mighty fine guns for sale there from some very good builders. 

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:32:57 -0500 (EST)
From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe)
Subject: MtMan-List: Tip's for Priming the Pan

I don't shoot my flintlock very often (not in over a year to my shame!!)
as all my friend`s shoot capper's ! There was some good advice a year or
so back in regards to priming I tried to find in Archive but can not
access after Mar 2000! (Darn Webtv!) The jist of the tip was to prim the
pan fuller on one side but I can't now remember was it fuller toward the
touch hole or away? Can any one help ?  
                 Your Most Humble Servant,
                         M.A.Smith Esq.


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:18:49 EST
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tip's for Priming the Pan

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In a message dated 11/8/02 8:34:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net writes:


> fuller toward the
> 

Keep the prime away from the touch hole so you do not fill the touch hole and 
then have it burn like a wick (which causes delays in ignition).  You want 
the primer to ignite and flash a ball of fire threw the touch hole to ignite 
the main charge.

And shame on you for bowing to peer pressure and shooting only your cap gun.  

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes

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In a message dated 11/8/02 8:34:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net writes:





fuller toward the

touch hole or away? 




Keep the prime away from the touch hole so you do not fill the touch hole and then have it burn like a wick (which causes delays in ignition).  You want the primer to ignite and flash a ball of fire threw the touch hole to ignite the main charge.



And shame on you for bowing to peer pressure and shooting only your cap gun.  



Y.M.O.S.



C.T. Oakes

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:19:49 -0500 (EST)
From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tip's for Priming the Pan

That was It !!! And yes Shame on Me! I'm going to shoot with the guy's
this weekend and  I wanted to make sure the old flinter go's boom!!!!
Thank's !
                                  Your Servant,
                                                         M.
                                       


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:18:34 -0700
From: Joe Brandl 
Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo hunt/shoot

just spoke with a client of ours, she is selling off her herd. These 
are really nice bulls and cow buffalo with darker black robes. For 
only $600 per cow, bulls are more, you can shoot the buffalo, no 
archery, blk powder OK, keep the meat, head and hide. She wants to 
have the herd gone before march. Best times for hair is Dec 1st to 
jan 15 maybe to the 31st. Call her if interested, if a group wants to 
come out, she will buy the drinks. Buffalo are in grass pasture not 
feedlot!

Hilda Thomas - Bar X Ranch
Near Powell Wyoming
307-645-3231

I am going up end of Nov or middle of Dec

joe
- -- 
Please visit our web site @ 
New supply of full and half buffalo hides
Lifetime cleaning and reconditioning
Elk, deer, cow, buffalo rawhide available

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:09:35 -0700
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" 
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens

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Hey Poorboy=20
My take on canteens is this.  When Jed crossed the desert to get back =
from Cali and he had to take water back to one of his men who had laid =
down to die, he carried the water in a kettle.  In the notes AJ Miller =
wrote that canteens were concidered feminate by the trappers.  There are =
mentions of canteens in lists but not in great number and the journals =
which talk a lot about dry crossing do not mention canteens that I am =
aware of.

So here is my interpretion.  If you want to be authentic don't care one. =
 However, I figure if you are going to be picky enough to not carry one =
for authenticity sake you should not drink from someone elses either.  =
That means you will need to filter water on an as needed basis into your =
cook gear.

Being lazy and enjoying being hydrated, I personally am not willing to =
do that.  Having drank from plenty of enamal, copper, and tin canteens, =
I don't believe they would be any less pleasing to your wife than =
something that tastes like plastic and is simply covered by a =
questionable verneer.
Wynn Ormond
  =20



  I am curious about the applicable time periods for the flat sided, =
stave sided wooded canteens, often seen as an accoutrement for the War =
Between the States.  I currently utilize a leather/pitched canteen and a =
copper kidney style canteen.  I portray a trapper of the pre-1840 =
vintage
  PoorBoy



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Hey Poorboy 


My take on canteens is this.  When =
Jed crossed=20
the desert to get back from Cali and he had to take water back to one of =
his men=20
who had laid down to die, he carried the water in a kettle.  In the =
notes=20
AJ Miller wrote that canteens were concidered feminate by the=20
trappers.  There are mentions of canteens in lists but not in =
great=20
number and the journals which talk a lot about dry crossing do =
not mention=20
canteens that I am aware of.


 


So here is my interpretion.  =
If you want=20
to be authentic don't care one.  However, I figure if you are =
going to=20
be picky enough to not carry one for authenticity sake you should not =
drink from=20
someone elses either.  That means you will need to filter water on =
an as=20
needed basis into your cook gear.


 


Being lazy and enjoying being hydrated, =
I=20
personally am not willing to do that.  Having drank from =
plenty of=20
enamal, copper, and tin canteens, I don't believe they would be any =
less=20
pleasing to your wife than something that tastes like plastic and is =
simply=20
covered by a questionable verneer.


Wynn Ormond


   



  


  
 

  
I am curious about the applicable =
time periods=20
  for the flat sided, stave sided wooded canteens, often seen as an =
accoutrement=20
  for the War Between the States.  I currently utilize a =
leather/pitched=20
  canteen and a copper kidney style canteen.  I portray a trapper =
of the=20
  pre-1840 vintage

  
PoorBoy

  
 

  
 


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:24:31 -0700
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" 
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket

>
> J. Manton is credited as being the first to use a "platinum" touch hole
> liner
> in 1805. There are numerous historical references in the account books of
> gunsmiths to touch holes being rebushed.
>
> Sure glad to hear that... I've got a dbl brl flinter in the Manton
> style(least that's what I thought it was) that has "platinum" liners in
it.
> Hate to trash it just because the touch holes were wrong... you saved it
> from the garbage heap with that comment!
>

> Scott McMahon

Scott
I believe he is totally wrong about the touch hole thing.  They are
completely wrong on dbl brl flinters.  I will send you the address for my
garbage bump as soon as you like.
Wynn Ormond



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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 18:57:24 +0000
From: "scott mcmahon" 
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens

   I am curious about the applicable time periods for the flat sided, stave 
sided wooded canteens, often seen as an accoutrement for the War Between the 
States.  I currently utilize a leather/pitched canteen and a copper kidney 
style canteen.  I portray a trapper of the pre-1840 vintage
   PoorBoy

PoorBoy,
if you want a GOOD wooden canteen then spend the extra money and get one 
from a competent cooper. Try 5 Rivers Chapmanry... they do good work but 
there's a long wait. there are a few other guys out there selling good 
canteens, Dixie used to cary a nice wooden one but don't know if they still 
have it or not. Stay away from the Townsend canteens... I have one and know 
a few other who have them and they've never held water worth a flip! Good 
luck with your canteen hunt.

	Dios, Libertad y Tejas
	Scott McMahon
	S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co.

	"Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any 
sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one 
or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a 
rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them."
	General Ethan Allen Hitchcock




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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:21:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Branson 
Subject: MtMan-List: touch hole liners

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Touch hole liners are very old. Platinum and gold were the material of choice for english gunmakers. The following gun makers were using them in both dbl flint shot guns and dueling pistols: John Manton, Joe Manton, Henry Nock. Several others also. Touch hole liners were being used before General Ashley ever took a keel boat up the Missouri. 
 



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Touch hole liners are very old. Platinum and gold were the material of choice for english gunmakers. The following gun makers were using them in both dbl flint shot guns and dueling pistols: John Manton, Joe Manton, Henry Nock. Several others also. Touch hole liners were being used before General Ashley ever took a keel boat up the Missouri. 

 

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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 14:21:27 -0500
From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens

the following comes from a website of the 1812 marines, now it is not intended that this is the final say-so in the canteen subject, but it is intended to help date thier use, I am still searching my archives for further information to support thier existance and use.

Frank Sablan
Midland,Texas

CANTEENS:

There is only one documentation for canteens for Marine use. This is listed in an order filled for Lt. McKnight for use of Marines on board the ship of war " Delaware: 363, wooden canteens with linen straps, 363 painted knapsacks with straps". This order also indicates Marines were supplied with
blankets out of their uniform allowance and that hammocks come from the Navy as issued to the whole ship's company. Marines' hammock numbers as well as mess numbers were the highest in the ship's company as they were issued hammock and assigned to mess last. The above order was filled at Philadelphia, PA on 7 December 1797. This order and this alone is the only indication of canteens for Marines is the documentation based on for the use of our canteens. They are painted red with Roman white letters USM. The straps are natural linen or cotton and not leather.




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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:12:25 -0700
From: Allen Chronister 
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun

I've tried to post a photo to the discussion site all day but it never comes
through.  Anybody know why?  Can photos be posted to this site?
Allen Chronister

SWcushing@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/6/02 11:36:51 AM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
>
> << A friend of mine recently found a length of trade gun barrel along
>
> the banks of the Teton River here in Montana >>
>
> Beaverboy..... that sounds like the one Walt Foster showed me a while back in
> Billings... was that the one you saw??? I thought it was pretty darn neat too!
>
> Magpie
>
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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:29:16 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun

In a message dated 11/8/02 2:15:01 PM, almont@mt.net writes:

<< I've tried to post a photo to the discussion site all day but it never 
comes
through.  >>

Hi Allen,
Noy sure why....but don't think you can post a picture on Dean's site. 
.....might have something to do with viruses.  What I try to do is included 
an address that anyone can cut and paste to or in "hypertext" ...just double 
click, and it takes you there. I guess ya gotta have an isp that will let you 
do it though....

You have a jpg of the barrels???

Magpie
db.jpg  
http://members.aol.com/swcushing/db.jpg

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:40:48 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Montana...

Hmmmm....seems to me that on this date in 1889, the Great State of Montana 
joined the Union. Happy Birthday Boys!

Magpie

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:08:11 -0700 (MST)
From: 
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun waiting

 Frank,
     I've seen a lot of original flintlocks in museums and I mean a lot of
them, and I have still not seen one with a vent liner. Coincedence? I
don't think so.

              BB
>    Beaverboy said,
>    <12 month's is too long to wait for anything>
>    Not from a good custom gun builder who is not in the business
>    full-time.
> Some guys build only a couple a year and spend the rest of their time
> enjoying life.
>    But from a factory like TVM, that definately is excessive by about
> eleven months.
>    Its your right to not like vent liners but as to their being
> "unhistorical" there were a lot of guns from Europe and built here by
> immigrants that utilized liners, often of platinum or gold to prevent
> burn-out.
> Frank G. Fusco
> Mountain Home, AR
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/
>
>
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