From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1119 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, December 8 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1119 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Indian Trade List -       Re: MtMan-List: Indian Trade List -       Re: Re: MtMan-List: Apostle belts/pouch horns -       Re: MtMan-List: Indian Trade List -       Re: MtMan-List: Indian Trade List -       MtMan-List: Fall Beaver Trapping Campaign -       Re: MtMan-List: have you seen this site?? -       Re: MtMan-List: In Search Of . . . . -       Re: MtMan-List: Fall Beaver Trapping Campaign -       Re: Re: MtMan-List: Apostle belts/pouch horns -       MtMan-List: Eagle Bone Whistles?? -       Re: MtMan-List: Re-smoking hides -       Re: MtMan-List: Fall Beaver Trapping Campaign -       Re: Re: MtMan-List: Apostle belts/pouch horns -       Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? -       MtMan-List: Fort Benton Restoration -       Re: Re: MtMan-List: Apostle belts/pouch horns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:12:22 EST From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Indian Trade List - --part1_bf.2ad572c0.2b22a4f6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was reading a Indian Trade List that I got off the web. It is listed as Detroit, September 1778, Haldimand papers. In the collection it list 100 N.West Fuzells (their spelling not mine!). Here's the question: Are they referring to the NW Trade Gun? This is the first time I've heard of a Fussil being NW Trade Gun. What's your input? Thanks! Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com - --part1_bf.2ad572c0.2b22a4f6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was reading a Indian Trade List that I got off the web.    It is listed as
Detroit, September 1778,  Haldimand papers.    In the collection it list
100 N.West Fuzells (their spelling not mine!).    Here's the question:
Are they referring to the NW Trade Gun?    This is the first time I've heard
of a Fussil being NW Trade Gun.     What's your input?    Thanks!

Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
Traphand@aol.com
 - --part1_bf.2ad572c0.2b22a4f6_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:38:15 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Trade List Rick, The correct name for the trade gun is the Northwest Gun. Which had no connection with the Northwest Company. I prefer to call my gun a fusee. Start telling your work buddies about your hunt with your fusee one time, your trade gun the next time and they get all confused. Now they just call it my "Blunderbus". Just mentioning a hunt with your fusee to strangers usually gets a look of, "What the heck is this guy talking about?". I usually describe it to them as a musket which most people understand. The Northwest Gun by Charles Hanson JR is a good book to read, also Russel's Journal of a Trapper makes many mentions of the "indian fusils". I read that book when I was kid and had no idea what a fusil was but knew it was a gun. I had no idea that some day I'd be hunting with one myself and loving it! Beaverboy > I was reading a Indian Trade List that I got off the web. It is > listed as Detroit, September 1778, Haldimand papers. In the > collection it list 100 N.West Fuzells (their spelling not mine!). > Here's the question: Are they referring to the NW Trade Gun? This is > the first time I've heard of a Fussil being NW Trade Gun. What's > your input? Thanks! > > Traphand > Rick Petzoldt > Traphand@aol.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 20:45:14 -0600 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Apostle belts/pouch horns At 06:47 PM 12/6/02, you wrote: > > > > I will stand by my answer then that most of the art work shows a > > trapper with a horn on the outside of the pouch. > > > > I would like to see evidence of loading blocks. Other than carrying a > > few rounds in their mouth I have not seen anything of that like either. > > > > Wynn Ormond > Oh piddle. The "art work" means less than almost NOTHING! Your position is one counter to learning. It takes the air of authority and presumes if it wasn't written down three times in conveniently located places, or painted on canvas by Miller, it never was. Miller painted Stewart, and not very well. He is an anomaly. Certainly not representative. There's not a lot of other art work, none of it is very detailed. If someone can think it up now, someone already thought it up then. Whether or not it is or was a good idea remains to the testing. Most of the common and ordinary ways of doing were forgotten and many of todays gospel ways are recent rediscoveries of how. Those rediscoveries were made by inquisitive inquiry and experimentation. Some of the professed old ways work and some don't, some leave out an essential process that "everyone" back then just knew. Yes we learned from art and reading and then what worked by the doing. The discussion should center on what works and what don't, what's practical & why: and how. I've taken to carrying a few paper powder cartridges and pre-patched-and-lubed-ball loose in my bag, its plain handy. Now back then paper was precious and few knew how to read or write. If I had a book and couldn't read (and maybe even if I could) I'd roll a few paper cartridges just to have them anyway. Folks knew about paper cartridges. It wasn't necessary to write about it, publishing required material of substance as it was so labor intensive. If I were living back then in the wilds I'd probably do both, carry a horn as the best protection for the bulk of my powder and a few cartridges kept handy, if I had the paper, or parchment. Parchment is easy enough to make in the field. Options for cordage are endless. To argue about loading blocks is as absurd as whether or not someone back then could figure out how to lash straps around a horse's ass to keep the pack secure on mountain trails. Our ancestors were not stupid. They did what worked. They made do with what they had and often did it with real style. Each man kind of worked things out for himself from the whole body of knowledge and experience which was his life. There are a lot of good ideas that they already had we would do well to rediscover, to stifle that with haughty statements as to the art work not depicting "any/little/something" to your esteemed satisfaction seems a tad arrogant to me. John... For 1700's loading blocks see the auction page Linda posted earlier, several nice examples are shown with a bunch of other neat stuff. Note: much of the stuff is mis-labeled. >---------------------- Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:27:55 EST From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Trade List - --part1_1b9.a521fbf.2b22d2cb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beaverboy, But or the n.west fuzzells mentioned on the list the same as the northwest trade gun .The northwest trade gun I know very well for I have owned one for over twenty years. What do you think, the trade list is from1778. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com - --part1_1b9.a521fbf.2b22d2cb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beaverboy,
              But or the n.west  fuzzells  mentioned on the list the same as the northwest trade gun .The northwest trade gun I know very well for I have owned one for over twenty years. What do you think, the trade list is from1778.

Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
Traphand@aol.com
 - --part1_1b9.a521fbf.2b22d2cb_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 06:06:49 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Trade List Rick, I'm sure it is. It says right there "n.west fuzzells". Just another one of many variations of spellings from the old days. I'll quote Hanson's book page 15 ," The first known reference to "Northwest guns" appear in the journal of John Long, who traded north of Lake Superior for an independent Montreal merchant in 1777-1780. Speaking of a meeting with a new group of Indians with whom he intended to trade in the winter of 1777-78 he wrote: "...I gave...to eight chiefs who were in the band, each a North-West gun, a calico shirt, a scalping knife of the best sort, and an additional quantity of ammuntion. These were received with a full yo-hah, or demonstration of joy.". That is the beauty of the Northwest gun in reinactments, you can take them to any one in the country and no one can point a finger and say "Thats not right!" These guns or variations or forerunners of them were traded with the indians very early. Again from Hanson's book, page 5,"Nicholas Perrot wrote in his Memoirs that by 1630 the Iroquois had obtained enough firearms from the Dutch to gain ascendancy over the powerful Algonquins". Also Dr. Mayer quotes William Bradford in "Plymouth Plantation" on the effects fo the trade in 1628:"...fills them (the indians) with peeces, powder and shote...". You must get a copy of this fine book especially since you own a trade gun. I'm sure that is a reference to an early type trade gun or variation of one. Beaverboy > Beaverboy, > But or the n.west fuzzells mentioned on the list the > same as > the northwest trade gun .The northwest trade gun I know very well for I > have owned one for over twenty years. What do you think, the trade > list is from1778. > > Traphand > Rick Petzoldt > Traphand@aol.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 07:56:20 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: MtMan-List: Fall Beaver Trapping Campaign Dear List, Winter has lowered its icy grip upon the far north of the Upper Missouri once again. 4 degrees this morning at my home in the Sun River Valley. The cold hit us about a week ago and put an end to my water trapping on all but the Mighty Missouri river which refuses to freeze to the bitter end. Though we did have an even earlier cold snap at the end of October which got to -15 below and froze all the small rivers solid, it did warm up and the ice went off and we had 3 weeks or so of perfect trapping weather. I found a beaver cache by no den after the ice left and then realized the ice going off took it downriver! This must have aggravated the beaver to no end to have all their hard work taken away. They needn’t had worried though as all their troubles are over as I located the den a 1/4 mile up river and killed them all. Pulling my traps last Wednesday was quite an experience. The Sun River was frozen in spots, shelf ice in other, and there was overflow in spots as well. Some of my traps were covered with two layers of ice and a 1˝ feet of water. Always take good note of where your traps are located as it gets a lot different looking when the ice and snow comes. It was very dangerous as the banks were covered in snow and to slide down one could take you right out onto the thin ice. Many times that day I thought to myself, "I have to get myself a better hobby!". I tied a rope to a tree in several places to use as I rappelled down to my set. Moving ice is the true enemy of the beaver trapper. When the ice starts to flow it will take all in its way with it! I lost only one small muskrat trap to the ice, so far. I still have one deep under the ice that I must find before winter sets in or it will be gone in the spring. I also had one small muskrat trap stolen but by an animal! I found only a muskrat foot left at the set and could not ascertain, by tracks, what type of critter made a meal of it. It was a large animal though as it was able to carry off the trap as well as rat. It even pulled the stake! By the lack of sign I think maybe an eagle flew off with it. Perhaps I will find that trap along the trail someday in the future and it will make a fine tale. I was very tired, wet, frozen and muddy by time I got all the other traps retrieved. I was hoping for a beaver to end the line with but had to settle for a fine otter instead!! I can rest finally and sleep in for the first time in 6 weeks as hunting season is over and all but 3 of my traps are home and safe. But alas it is time to hunt the long hair fur. Time to get up early again and go out and call the coyotes at first light and in the evenings. I ended my fall trapping campaign with 39 beaver which pleased me well, along with other assorted water critter pelts. I thanked God for a successful and safe fall hunt too. All the beaver were taken with my homemade “L&C recipe Beaver Bate”. I had hoped for another beaver to make it an even 40 but I’ll take the otter. They are all done and in the stack are on boards as I write. I have caught mostly large beaver too, lots of blankets so should fare well with the buyer. There ars some real gems in there too along with a few hatters. I sold my two otters out right just skinned and did very well on them. I should earn enough to purchase my new flintlock rifle kit. I am not done either. I still have several traps on the Mighty Missouri and have several places which I can trap beaver under the ice if I want to. I really don’t want to though as it is such hard, miserable, cold, wet work trapping or snaring beaver under the ice. The pelts taken from under the ice are of premier quality however. I will see what happens with that endeavor. I know I will trap again in the spring when the ice goes off. I usually commence my spring hunt as soon as the ice goes off for good which is around February 15 in a mild winter or March 15 in a bad winter. That time of the year the beaver can be taken in numbers as they are rutting and much easier to trap as they are traveling about either in search of mates or defending their territory. This is when the mound set really shines. Mostly big (sexually mature) beaver are taken too. As for now I shall hunt the long hair furs and await the winter solstice and then celebrate for the days will once again grow longer. Winter is no longer the fun it used to be for me when I was younger. I suppose working in the cold for 20 years had taken the fun out of it for me. I hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving and hope all have a nice Christmas! Sincerely, Beaverboy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 08:46:40 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: have you seen this site?? That gentlemen had quite a collection. And sure enough there were loading blocks there. Some nice smoothbores in his collection. BB > http://www.cottoneauctions.com/TomWnuck/wnuck- accoutrements&accessories.htm > Some of you might like to see this auction. > > Linda Holley > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 09:47:41 -0700 From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In Search Of . . . . A good book to start with is _Authentic American Indian Beadwork and How to Do It: With 50 Charts for Bead Weaving and 21 Full-Size Patterns for Applique_ (http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486247392.html), but I agree with the suggestion to search museum websites too. If you're into the more northern groups, you might also check out Canada's Museum of Civilization; they have an excellent selection of online artifacts which have been posted complete with all the provenance information that they have. Go to http://collections.civilization.ca/ and then type the name of the group that you're interested in, e.g. Blackfoot - --"Blackfeet" is the American term; you'll get all the artifacts that are associated with that culture. Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 08:15:01 -0600 From: Windwalker Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fall Beaver Trapping Campaign On Saturday 07 December 2002 08:56, beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: > Dear List, > Winter has lowered its icy grip upon the far north of the Upper > Missouri once again. 4 degrees this morning at my home in the Sun River > Valley. The cold hit us about a week ago and put an end to my water > trapping on all but the Mighty Missouri river which refuses to freeze t= o > the bitter end. Though we did have an even earlier cold snap at the end= of > October which got to -15 below and froze all the small rivers solid, it > did warm up and the ice went off and we had 3 weeks or so of perfect > trapping weather. I found a beaver cache by no den after the ice left a= nd > then realized the ice going off took it downriver! This must have > aggravated the beaver to no end to have all their hard work taken away. > They needn=92t had worried though as all their troubles are over as I > located the den a 1/4 mile up river and killed them all. > Pulling my traps last Wednesday was quite an experience. The Sun > River was frozen in spots, shelf ice in other, and there was overflow i= n > spots as well. Some of my traps were covered with two layers of ice and= a > 1=BD feet of water. Always take good note of where your traps are locat= ed as > it gets a lot different looking when the ice and snow comes. It was ver= y > dangerous as the banks were covered in snow and to slide down one could > take you right out onto the thin ice. Many times that day I thought to > myself, "I have to get myself a better hobby!". I tied a rope to a tree= in > several places to use as I rappelled down to my set. Moving ice is the > true enemy of the beaver trapper. When the ice starts to flow it will t= ake > all in its way with it! I lost only one small muskrat trap to the ice, = so > far. I still have one deep under the ice that I must find before winter > sets in or it will be gone in the spring. I also had one small muskrat > trap stolen but by an animal! I found only a muskrat foot left at the s= et > and could not ascertain, by tracks, what type of critter made a meal of > it. It was a large animal though as it was able to carry off the trap a= s > well as rat. It even pulled the stake! By the lack of sign I think mayb= e > an eagle flew off with it. Perhaps I will find that trap along the tra= il > someday in the future and it will make a fine tale. I was very tired, w= et, > frozen and muddy by time I got all the other traps retrieved. I was hop= ing > for a beaver to end the line with but had to settle for a fine otter > instead!! I can rest finally and sleep in for the first time in 6 weeks= as > hunting season is over and all but 3 of my traps are home and safe. But > alas it is time to hunt the long hair fur. Time to get up early again a= nd > go out and call the coyotes at first light and in the evenings. > I ended my fall trapping campaign with 39 beaver which pleased me > well, along with other assorted water critter pelts. I thanked God for = a > successful and safe fall hunt too. All the beaver were taken with my > homemade =93L&C recipe Beaver Bate=94. I had hoped for another beaver = to make > it an even 40 but I=92ll take the otter. They are all done and in the s= tack > are on boards as I write. I have caught mostly large beaver too, lots o= f > blankets so should fare well with the buyer. There ars some real gems i= n > there too along with a few hatters. I sold my two otters out right just > skinned and did very well on them. I should earn enough to purchase my = new > flintlock rifle kit. I am not done either. I still have several traps o= n > the Mighty Missouri and have several places which I can trap beaver und= er > the ice if I want to. I really don=92t want to though as it is such har= d, > miserable, cold, wet work trapping or snaring beaver under the ice. The > pelts taken from under the ice are of premier quality however. I will s= ee > what happens with that endeavor. > I know I will trap again in the spring when the ice goes off. I > usually commence my spring hunt as soon as the ice goes off for good wh= ich > is around February 15 in a mild winter or March 15 in a bad winter. Tha= t > time of the year the beaver can be taken in numbers as they are rutting > and much easier to trap as they are traveling about either in search of > mates or defending their territory. This is when the mound set really > shines. Mostly big (sexually mature) beaver are taken too. > As for now I shall hunt the long hair furs and await the winter > solstice and then celebrate for the days will once again grow longer. > Winter is no longer the fun it used to be for me when I was younger. I > suppose working in the cold for 20 years had taken the fun out of it fo= r > me. > I hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving and hope all have a > nice Christmas! > Sincerely, > Beaverboy > >We are traping under ice here now.... works well > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - --=20 Note: Anything that appears to be an error in spelling or grammar is actu= ally=20 the author's clever use of the vernacular, and thus is a carefully placed= =20 literary device that demonstrates his writing prowess. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:59:42 -0700 From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Apostle belts/pouch horns If my message that repeats itself many times was my fault I apologize. I do not know what it is about. John Kramer wrote: > Oh piddle. The "art work" means less than almost NOTHING! John it is good to read that you are still as ornery and unreseasonable as ever. The art work happens to be about the only unwritten thing we have since it is very difficult to prove that many museum samples were actually in a trappers possession and in the mountains in the time frame. I wont claim that it is as good as your imagination but it was the imagination of someone closer in time than you or I. > Your position is one counter to learning. It takes the air of authority > and presumes if it wasn't written down three times in conveniently located > places, or painted on canvas by Miller, it never was. Years ago Capt Lahti gave me the idea that "learning" included knowing what was documented for the period and/or place and then choosing whether to use it or not. If it aint documented don't mean it aint right, it means it aint documented and is thus up to opinion. But don't kid yourself John, if you think of something that don't make it right, like you said what might seem obvious to you may have been very difficult for them. > The discussion should center on what works and what don't, what's practical > & why: and how. Has anyone tried riding any distance at speed with a loading block tied around their neck? I haven't might not be bad; might beat the hell out of you. > > There are a lot of good ideas that they already had we would do well to > rediscover, to stifle that with haughty statements as to the art work not > depicting "any/little/something" to your esteemed satisfaction seems a tad > arrogant to me. > I'd rather be arrogant and haughty with my eyes open to the artwork and other sources than blinded by personal prejudice that eliminates what evidence is available. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 12:58:05 -0800 From: Richard j Holliday Subject: MtMan-List: Eagle Bone Whistles?? Can anyone direct me to a source of information on how to build an eagle (turkey) bone whistle that really works. TIA Dick Holliday Waukon, IA - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 07 Dec 2002 15:09:22 -0700 From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re-smoking hides Hang them in the top of a smoky tepee. On Wednesday, December 4, 2002 10:28 PM, Allen Hall = wrote: >Hello the list, > >Been kinda quiet around here....... > >Any you folks had any luck re-smoking brain tan once it's made >into clothing? > >Just interested. I smoked 3 deer hides the other day, and figured maybe = my >frock coat could use a little refresh on it's color.... > >Looking forward to the replies. > >Allen in Fort Hall country > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:55:41 EST From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fall Beaver Trapping Campaign - --part1_e6.32a1c178.2b23e47d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit love hearing about you trapping.Did it years ago in missouri.Be careful on the ice. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com - --part1_e6.32a1c178.2b23e47d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit love hearing about you trapping.Did it years ago in missouri.Be careful on the ice.

Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
Traphand@aol.com
 - --part1_e6.32a1c178.2b23e47d_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:56:40 -0600 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Apostle belts/pouch horns At 12:59 PM 12/7/02, you wrote: > Wynn wrote: > >The art work happens to be about the only unwritten thing we have >since it is very difficult to prove that many museum samples were actually >in a trappers possession and in the mountains in the time frame. Why is that important to anyone but a reenactor? Current popular reenactor philosophies presume that everyone that ever went to the mountains had no former life. None of them knew anything that wasn't written down in three places, none of them possessed anything that wasn't listed on official records or painted by a fashionable fop's art servant. Poppycock. Because you don't see something in a picture means nothing to anyone but a reenactor. Thank goodness AMM is not about reenacting. Let me repeat that, just so there is no confusion: Thank goodness AMM is not about reenacting. > > Your position is one counter to learning. It takes the air of authority > > and presumes if it wasn't written down three times in conveniently located > > places, or painted on canvas by Miller, it never was. > >Years ago Capt Lahti gave me the idea that "learning" included knowing what >was documented for the period and/or place and then choosing whether to use >it or not. Learning from what was documented is what we do first, then some of us go out and find out if the "documentation" is right. Some of us are still searching for real documentation not trying to ascribe new standards from fuzzy pictures. It is not that I hate Miller it is just too many have too often tried to see too much that just wasn't there. Miller's very relevance is highly questionable, he was painting to his Master's order. He was mostly painting his Master's vast entourage. It was mostly about the greater glory of his Master. A publicist of sorts. >If it aint documented don't mean it aint right, it means it aint >documented and is thus up to opinion. But don't kid yourself John, if you >think of something that don't make it right, like you said what might seem >obvious to you may have been very difficult for them. Sometimes difficult and sometimes not impossible, how about air mattresses, swan down vests, painted camouflage, &c? I have period published documentation for those items and more. There is lots more of interest to discover. Some of it is even written down. What too many reenactors can't abide is that many back then had minds more clever than now. Each was schooled in some sort of trade, those things known during the period were known in the Rocky's by at least one or two, read the biographies of the people who went, they were a diverse lot of ne'er do wells, riff-raff and adventurers; every guild, craft and trade was represented. Some were widely traveled. Limiting learning to only what is depicted in a painting is limiting and certainly not remotely representative. >Has anyone tried riding any distance at speed with a loading block tied >around their neck? I haven't might not be bad; might beat the hell out of >you. I've done it with a neck knife and other trinkets and if you hang them right it ain't a problem. Those that have spent some time out know how to consolidate the package whether you're sneaking through the woods or galloping across the prairie. I never had any use for a loading block, I found other old ways to keep a reload handy. Others find them useful, now and back then. Unless you're into crippling & killing horses you don't do a lot of distance at speed, with or without something dangling from you. You do distance steady as you go. > > > > There are a lot of good ideas that they already had we would do well to > > rediscover, to stifle that with haughty statements as to the art work not > > depicting "any/little/something" to your esteemed satisfaction seems a tad > > arrogant to me. > > > >I'd rather be arrogant and haughty with my eyes open to the artwork and >other sources than blinded by personal prejudice that eliminates what >evidence is available. I don't ever advocate eliminating any evidence, I do advocate weighting it appropriately based on relevance. My only prejudice is with the dogma that has arisen in recent years as some reenactors have tried to foist their ill conceived versions of authenticity off on everyone else. It has spilled over into the common dialogue and held sway too long. You fail to understand that the artwork and literature is only a place to start, it is not any kind of final word of authority. We didn't learn to light a candle from a spark by reading a book or looking at a picture. John... ========================================== John Adams, Second President of the United States: "You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe." These rights are enshrined in our precious Bill of Rights. Without them we are essentially slaves - powerless property of the state. ============================================= - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 00:37:43 -0500 From: "traprjon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? Ho the list, Nick you are right to be scared and to push back!!! Attorney General Ashcroft is the first AG in my memory who has interpreted the 2nd amendment correctly. The Judge in the news story quite obviously hasn't read any of histories documentation and doesn't know what the unorganized militia is. It's the people!!! The 2nd amendment wasn't meant to be a guarantee from the government to let people bear arms, but rather a guarantee by the people that the government had no right to legislate or interfere with the peoples Civil Rights (the Bill of Rights, the 1st 10 amendments)!!! Some may ask, what has this to do with mountain man history??? The answer is simple, when they take away the rest of the peoples firearms and only BP gun's are left, they will take those too!!! Being a group that owns and uses firearms, we need to be as strong a supporter of 2nd amendment rights as we can be, before we don't have them anymore!!! I am reminded of 2 brief quotes here: ************************************************************************ "You seem...to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all Constitutional questions: a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one, which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy." -- Thomas Jefferson (tyranny/dictatorship of an old fashioned/old style) ************************************************************************ "The saddest epitaph which can be carved in memory of a vanished liberty is that it was lost because its possessors failed to stretch forth a saving hand while yet there was time." - -- Justice George Sutherland, 1938 ************************************************************************ Sincerely, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@attbi.com **************************************************************** "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is Force. And Force, like fire, is a Dangerous servant and a fearful master." -- George Washington **************************************************************** "Fear the Government that fears your guns!!!" -- Unknown **************************************************************** - ----- Original Message ----- From: "De Santis, Nick" To: Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 2:06 PM Subject: MtMan-List: 2nd amendment? > > To the list and anyone who will read this: > > Not often do I really give a damn about politics and the general nuisance of > the process. However, this is really wrong. Please read the link below. > > If, deep down, you care about your rights as a free man or women, this > should scare you at the least. For me, it is one step to far. I am just > angry that folks who cannot be content to just mind there own space are > backing me into a corner. > > I am no revolutionary, but that does not mean we cannot push back. I intend > to start shoving. > > Yours, > > Nick De Santis ( Travler) > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,72371,00.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:52:49 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Benton Restoration Dear List, Here's our chance to help rebuild the last fur trade post on the Upper Missouri! Every year after selling my fur I give some of the proceeds to the Fort Benton Restoration Fund. Fur money built the original fort, its only fitting that some fur money help rebuild it. These old forts are our heritage and trappers and people on this list more than anyone should help in its restoration. Any size donation will be greatly appreciated but a $35. or more donation will get you a Fort Benton Medallion sent to you postage paid. This need only be a once in a lifetime donation but you can also do it annually like I do. Either way you can be proud in the fact that you helped rebuild one of the greatest forts on the Upper Missouri! Remind them to send you the medallion too. Or better yet, go visit them and pick it up personally. Thankyou Send donations to: Fort Benton Restoration Box 262 Fort Benton, Montana 59442 http://www.fortbenton.com/symposium/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 08:32:12 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Branson Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Apostle belts/pouch horns - --0-1057629755-1039365132=:7199 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The rifle is a full stocked poor boy style flintlock rifle with a wooden patchbox lid and brass furniture and roman nosed stock. There isn't any carving. A nice rifle similiar to a poor boy I own with the difference being mine is percussion without a patch box and has a copper toe plate. If you I can I will photograph the article with my digital camera and then transmit it over the web on this site. M. B beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:> Hey Mike, What kind of rifle was it? A flinter or what? Real curious about it. Beaverboy > concerning this issue of whether loading blocks were used in the fur > trade days. I refer you to the Oct issue of American Hunter Magazine, > 1975. Article entitled: "A Real Hunters Rifle." This particular rifle > with hunting pouch and powder horn and all accoutrements is owned by a > collector in Virginia. Attached to the strap of the bag in the > accompanying photo is an original loading block that is obviously very > old. It is a single piece of hardwood with 4 bullet sized holes bored > into it in a single line. In the holes are patched round balls. Old > patches and old oxidized lead balls. The pouch and horn, rifle and > accoutrements all date from before 1842. The hunter died of old age in > 1842. Excellent article with nice color photos of the powder horn with > a repair on it, and all of the contents of the hunting pouch along > with the rifle. The family kept the gun until the 1970s when it was > sold to the collector who allowed it to be photographed for the > magazine. There is no reason to doubt the authenticity of the articles > because the whole article was put together before people sat around and > nit picked such subjects. At least after close axamination of the > photos I find them to be genuine in my humble opinion. Mike B > Wynn Ormond wrote: >> Thanks for your answer! I suspected as much even though having no set >> charges readly available seems counter intuitive given that they seem >> to have had loading blocks. BTW, an pouch horn is just similar to a >> powder horn but is flat and placed inside the huniting bag >> instead worn outside. >> >> Two Feathers > > I will stand by my answer then that most of the art work shows a > trapper with a horn on the outside of the pouch. > > I would like to see evidence of loading blocks. Other than carrying a > few rounds in their mouth I have not seen anything of that like either. > > Wynn Ormond > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now - --0-1057629755-1039365132=:7199 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

The rifle is a full stocked poor boy style flintlock rifle with a wooden patchbox lid and brass furniture and roman nosed stock. There isn't any carving. A nice rifle similiar to a poor boy I own with the difference being mine is percussion without a patch box and has a  copper toe plate. If you I can I will photograph the article with my digital camera and then transmit it over the web on this site. M. B

 beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:

> Hey Mike,
What kind of rifle was it? A flinter or what? Real curious about it.
Beaverboy
> concerning this issue of whether loading blocks were used in the fur
> trade days. I refer you to the Oct issue of American Hunter Magazine,
> 1975. Article entitled: "A Real Hunters Rifle." This particular rifle
> with hunting pouch and powder horn and all accoutrements is owned by a
> collector in Virginia. Attached to the strap of the bag in the
> accompanying photo is an original loading block that is obviously very
> old. It is a single piece of hardwood with 4 bullet sized holes bored
> into it in a single line. In the holes are patched round balls. Old
> patches and old oxidized lead balls. The pouch and horn, rifle and
> accoutrements all date from before 1842. The hunter died of old age in
> 1842. Excellent article with nice color photos of the powder horn with
> a repair on it, and all of the contents of the hunting pouch along
> with the rifle. The family kept the gun until the 1970s when it was
> sold to the collector who allowed it to be photographed for the
> magazine. There is no reason to doubt the authenticity of the articles
> because the whole article was put together before people sat around and
> nit picked such subjects. At least after close axamination of the
> photos I find them to be genuine in my humble opinion. Mike B
> Wynn Ormond wrote:
>> Thanks for your answer! I suspected as much even though having no set
>> charges readly available seems counter intuitive given that they seem
>> to have had loading blocks. BTW, an pouch horn is just similar to a
>> powder horn but is flat and placed inside the huniting bag
>> instead worn outside.
>>
>> Two Feathers
>
> I will stand by my answer then that most of the art work shows a
> trapper with a horn on the outside of the pouch.
>
> I would like to see evidence of loading blocks. Other than carrying a
> few rounds in their mouth I have not seen anything of that like either.
>
> Wynn Ormond
>
>
>
> ----------------------
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>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now




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