From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #112 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, July 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 112 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:30 -0500 From: jdsteach@dwave.net Subject: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft I wonder if this has happened to anyone. I had a striker that worked well enough. It was misplaced and was not used for a year or so. I threw it on the burner when I found it thinking it wouldn't hurt(I was browning a pistol barrel). Now I find the darn thing, the striker, has gone soft. No spark and now has some real fine notches from the flint in it. Could some of you iron workers shed some light on this situation for me? Did I do wrong heating it up? I have other stikers but would like to know if it is shot enough to have made into a firepit hanger or something. Thanks for your input and time. J.D.Stoddard (working on losing his green) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:24:14 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft >I had a striker that worked >well enough. I >threw it on the burner when I found it thinking it wouldn't hurt(I was >browning a pistol barrel). Now I find the darn thing, the striker, has >gone soft. Did I do wrong heating it up? >I have other stikers but would like to know if it is shot enough to have >made into a firepit hanger or something. All isn't lost. It just has to be retempered. Any smithy could do it for you. I think it has something to do with how it's quenched. I have one that was a "C" shape and I wanted to close off one of the ends to hold a thong, so I had a smith do it. After it was closed he had to reharden it. I seem to remember him quenching it in oil, but there may have been another step there somewhere. Good luck. No need to retire it as a pot hook yet. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:42:24 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wantabee wants to make loin cloth pearce: if I coutld type with out making errore the list would think i was brillient---i have trouble spelling my name and getting it right.. i am sure everyone got your point---at least you got one of them right---thats 50%----- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:40:05 -0400 "Pearce Gardner" writes: > >Before everyone jumps on me for my typo, I know it is not AMA, but >rather >AMM, sorry. > > >>I figure in order to start doing this mountain man thing, the first >article >>of clothing should be a loin cloth. what does everyone recommend, >big >>question, what size and weight of cloth, and what kind of belt or >waist >>strap to hold it on with? I figure my persona is 1750's Virginia >mountain >>longhunter. Is this persona acceptable to AMA? (I mean AMM, sorry) >Any >help and or advice in >>this matter is greatly appreciated. >> >>Thanks for all your help in this matter. >> >>Gardner >> >> >> > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:29:53 -0600 From: cwebbbpdr@juno.com (Charlie P. Webb) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:03:11 -0500 "Lanney Ratcliff" writes: >Kirk >I have given the same advice to numerous pilgrims. > > Lanney, I believe your letter of advice to new comers is excellent, possibly the best I have ever read. I would like to beg your permission to reprint it in our local Fremont Trappers, Monthly Report and the Colorado Springs Muzzle Loaders Inc. Mountain Man Monthly news letters. The Fremont Trappers of Canon City Colorado are a small family oriented group of about 30 families, and The Colorado Springs club is composed of some 80 families. I believe that many new folks to Buckskinning/living history would benefit from reading your "advise letter". If you don't mind my using your letter, I and others certainly will appreciate it. feel free to contact me "off list". Respectfully, Old Coyote Aka Charlie Webb cwebbbpdr@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:01:47 +0000 From: "Tommy Edge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft > Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:30 -0500 > From: jdsteach@dwave.net > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Cc: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft > Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > darn thing, the striker, has gone soft. No spark and now has > Heat it up till it is a dull red in the shade not bright sun light then quench in 10 to 20 weight oil then sand it off till part is shinning then heat to straw color. Thank You Tommy Edge I make Knives. http://www.nex.net/tedge/ A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:09:54 -0700 From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: MtMan-List: Looking forward..... To all: The responses to my (and others) inquiries about the first vous were terrific! I have printed every one and will do my best to enjoy. Sincere thanks to all. I live in Central Oregon and have been contacted by one that is going to the vous in Idaho sponsored by the Lewis Fork Free Trappers. Thanks again -- can't wait Gail Carbiener ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:18:10 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit--for women A quick, easy, & historic outfit for women : The Native & mixed-blood "country wives" of Canadian fur traders dressed in what Daniel Harmon called "the Canadian fashion". This consisted of a man's shirt (available from most sutlers), a petticoat (drawstring cloth skirt, ankle length or a bit shorter, see _Book of Buckskinning II_ or Beth Gilgun's _Tidings of the 18th Century_ for sewing instructions), a short gown (woman's jacket--see the books just mentioned for a pattern, but Book of Buckskinning VII also has a very nice one, suitable for ca. 1810-ca.1825--but a short gown's optional for newbies, you can just wear your shirt over your petticoat instead), leggins (knee-length, make them from cloth & tie up with a garter), and moccasins. To make it REALLY easy, you can wear knee-length stockings until you've got the leggins sewn (stockings were carried as trade goods). Take a blanket & sash for outerwear when it gets cold or rainy. This outfit is good from the 1780's through to the mid-1820's, wherever the Canadians (i.e. HBC, North West Co.) traded. With some adjustments to the style of the short gown, it may even be good for later on, but my area of research is 1774-1821, so I can't really say. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:17:56 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scotts in the West "Gail Carbiener" wrote: > I just happen to be reading "Company of Adventurers" Vol 1 by Peter > C. Newman. On page 6-7 it says in part...."Nearly all the great names in > the HBC's annals grew up in Scotland; not just Sir George Simpson, > Donald Smith and Sir James Douglas..... others Chief Factor Robert > Campbell. This is not yet Rocky Mountains..... but fur traders no the less. Whoa, there! Yes, there were a bunch of Highland Scots in the Canadian fur trade--some names from the North West Company: Alexander Mackenzie (who led the first expedition to cross North America by land, in 1793), Simon Fraser (both Fraser and Mackenzie spent many years operating in & around the Rocky Mountains, BTW), William McGillivray, Archibald Norman McLeod, John Macdonald of Garth, and many more. BUT in my reading of a bunch of pre-1821 journals which focus on the HBC & NWC, I have yet to find any suggestion of them wearing Highland dress. (But they were proud Scots, and often gave their men St. Andrews' Day as a holiday.) Many of these men were rich enough to have their portraits painted when they were living in Montreal, but none had themselves painted in _anything_ tartan, let alone wearing kilts or plaids. (The artist who did most of these fur traders' portraits was William Berczy; check out the book _Berczy_ by Mary Macaulay Allodi, Peter N. Moogk, & Beate Stock, published by the National Gallery of Canada, 1991.) There is one exception to this: John Mackenzie, the mixed-blood son of Roderick Mackenzie and his Native wife, was painted by Berczy wearing a red-and-green tartan jacket, white ruffled shirt, black cravat, and a Highland feather bonnet. FWIW, at the time that the portrait was painted (1811), John Mackenzie was a lietenant in the Canadian Fencibles. Roderick Mackenzie also had his portrait painted by Berczy--he is not wearing any sort of Highland dress or tartan. John Mackenzie was born about 1788, and in 1801 his father took him to Terrebonne (near Montreal), where he spent the rest of his life (died 1871). So it's unclear how much his clothing in this portrait would reflect what was worn back in the Northwest. After about 1825, IIRC, Highland dress suddenly became fashionable in the U.K. Sir George Simpson's only Scottish fashion accessory, however, was his newly-acquired piper, Colin Fraser, who was hired to accompany Simpson to the HBC's western posts in 1828. From 1835 to 1850, Fraser managed the HBC's Jasper House, in the Rocky Mountains (now within Jasper National Park). (This info from _Northwind Dreaming : Fort Chipewyan 1788-1988_ by Patricia A. McCormack, published by Provincial Museum of Alberta, 1988, ISBN 1-55006-121-6.) Some other Scots in the fur trade: starting in 1816 (IIRC), the Earl of Selkirk, Thomas Douglas, arranged for Highland Scots evicted in the Clearances to be taken by the HBC to settle at the forks of the Red and Assiniboine Rivers (modern Winnipeg). This project continued for the next ten years, and some of the men joined the HBC as employees. However, in Peter Rindisbacher's numerous sketches of life in & around the Selkirk settlement, not a single Scot in Highland dress is shown. In one sketch, made to show the various types of Selkirk settlers, he shows Swiss colonists (of which Rindisbacher was one), Canadians, and a Scotsman. The only article of Highland dress which can be identified is a close-fitting watch cap with a tartan trim around the edge (or perhaps a turned-up lining?). The HBC also employed a large number of men from the Orkney Islands from the 1780's onwards, but these men were _not_ Highland Scots; the Orkney tradition, owes a lot more to the Vikings than to the Highlanders. Someone else mentioned that all the HBC & NWC men listed thus far were all bourgeois anyhow. This is true. However, the mixed-blood descendants of the Scottish bourgeois were only rarely bourgeois themselves; the problem was that they rarely learned how to read & write, so they couldn't take on the clerical responsibilities of the job. There was also a lot of prejudice against them by high-ranking upstarts like George Simpson. Nevertheless, like their fathers, they may well have taken their Highland heritage seriously enough to adopt some elements of Highland dress. So what's my suggestion for Kirk? Tartan trews (trousers) might be a better choice for a crossover costume than a kilt or plaid, and more practical for the cold weather of the Rockies & Great Plains. As well, there's a much better chance of tartan trousers going unrecorded than of more elaborate Highland dress. Or he could, like John Mackenzie, wear a tartan jacket or coat, for the same reason. Despite all this rambling, I don't claim to be an expert in this field--not by a long shot! I know there was a so-called "Tartan Revival" in England & Scotland in the mid-1820's, but I have no idea whether that translated into more folks wearing Highland dress in the fur trade. Perhaps someone else can fill us in? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:43:07 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shorthand (aka Scotts in the West) For those who may not be up on the latest internet shorthand . . . > FWIW, at the time that the portrait was painted >(1811), John Mackenzie was a lietenant in the Canadian Fencibles. FWIW--"For what it's worth." >After about 1825, IIRC, Highland dress suddenly became fashionable in the >U.K. IIRC--"If I remember correctly..." And, just to throw in another one, KIT--"Keep in touch" Cheers, HBC--"Henry Brodrick Crawford" :-) ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:49:23 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft J.D. writes: << Now I find the darn thing, the striker, has gone soft. No spark and now has some real fine notches from the flint in it. Could some of you iron workers shed some light on this situation for me? Did I do wrong heating it up? >> J.D. Visit the website of the Muzzleloading mail list. We have a number of FAQ's that deal with metal tempering and hardening. Http://www.aye.net/~bspen OldFox ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:06:42 -0700 From: Longtrail Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RESPONSIBILITY FOR ATTIRE OF GUESTS Greetings from the Musselshell, Since my involvment with AMM back in the early 80's I have heard complaints about clothing. Who wears what, and who should not wear what. Especially when it comes to guests. I think it would put an end to the embarrasment and frustration of guests if it were the responsibility of the sponsor who invites them to be sure the guest is properly attired. If the AMM member is familiar enough with the guest to invite him, then he surely has seen the clothing and accoutrements the guest has or does not have. On occasion, when taking a friend to any rendezvous, I have done my best to outfit the person with what ever I had or could borrow so as to make the person feel he or she fit in, not only out of consideration for the guest but as a representation of how I also felt about the guidelines. The guest should be an EXTENTION of the host, a REPRESENTATION OF THE HOST. Instead of critisizm being directed towards the guest who basically hasn't a clue or would have done what ever possible to come in correct garb, carrying correct accoutremts, the host is the one who should bear the critisizm for his lack of effort to see that the guidelines are followed. One way to solve the problem would be for each party to have a donated collection of clothing and accoutremtnts. Which could be lent out to guests. Most of us who have been involved in rendezvousing for a while have extra items that we have replaced with new ones. Also, it is the responsibility of the guest, who is going to attend the rendezvous, to accept help in being attired without having any bad feeling about the quality of his own clothing and accoutrements. In other words, guests, don't get an attitude when you find your accoutremts and clothing might not be up to parr. For those of you who stand aside and critisize, well, theres folks like you everywhere and its unfortunate that your involved in a group like AMM, an organization I have respect for, for the quality of the people involved. As far as prospective members, they should be well on their way to having what they need to set a pre-1840 camp. Sponsors and hosts, take the responsibily that is yours. Associate Member. Longtrail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:54:04 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft JD: I noted in your posting that you were browning a barrel====if you are getting a barrel that hot to brown you stand a good chance in warping or deforming the barrel and making hard and soft spots in the barrel---- the part only has to be hot enough to make the drowning solution work---ie sizzle and brown---don't overheat---you will find you have a better shooting gun if you cold brown ---get yourself a book called : firearm blueing and browning ---- written by R.H. Anger-- I thank the IBSN number is 0-8117-0610-0- I have a first edition of it but it was reprinted by stackpole books in harrisburg pa -- the original copyright is 1936--It has ever browning and blueing solution that you can think of---I have used several of the recipeis but have settled on a combination of a couple of them----this is what most people do---- the solution i use only takes a slight amount of heat to activate----but its ---hard to make it stop working--I think i use too much ferric cloride-- will make rust grow on rust----GOOD OLD plumb brown gives a good slick finish and is easy to use with the exception that most people try to use too much heat---- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:30 -0500 jdsteach@dwave.net writes: >I wonder if this has happened to anyone. I had a striker that worked >well enough. It was misplaced and was not used for a year or so. I >threw it on the burner when I found it thinking it wouldn't hurt(I was >browning a pistol barrel). Now I find the darn thing, the striker, >has >gone soft. No spark and now has some real fine notches from the flint >in it. Could some of you iron workers shed some light on this >situation >for me? Did I do wrong heating it up? >I have other stikers but would like to know if it is shot enough to >have >made into a firepit hanger or something. >Thanks for your input and time. >J.D.Stoddard >(working on losing his green) > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:59:00 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chinook Ron: Greatings from the Columbia. I am not able to answer your question but I think I can put you on to the guy that can. You were probably talking to or listening to William A. Collins, Jr. Bill is the Brigade clerk for the Northwest Brigade, AMM and he knows and can speak Chinook jargon very well. I was the guy in the leanto just up hill from Bill, with the gords and copper corn boilers for sale. Anyway I'm sure Bill wouldn't mind jawing with you if you'd care to write. His address is: William A. Collins, Jr. 10801 Ogle Rd. NE Poulsbo, WA. 98370 Hope thtis gets you started. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Ron wrote: > Klahowya sihks! > > I'm located in SE Idaho. I was wondering how extensively the Chinook jargon > was used during the fur trade. Did trappers in the mid 1830's speak some of > the jargon in the area around Ft. Hall? Or just around the coast? > > I met a gentlemen speaking jargon up at Pierre's hole camp on the fourth > ( I was the flatlander with the beard..hehehe). > > I'm learning to sign, and some Shoshone, but would appreciate any input on > this. > > By the way I found an interesting site on the jargon: > > > YMOS > Ron > > > Email > > \|/ > / \ > / \ > / 0 \ Lonewolf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:40:38 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft iRON TOUNG CAN EXPOUND ON THE ART OF TEMPERING== i can only give you a way of how i would do it--- heat to a straw color hold for about 2 or 3 min to insure that the heat is constant thru the piece--submerge in 10 weight oil----I use bear grease---most of my strikers I make out of old files---i grind the edge smooth and leave the serrations on to hold the striker with-+++++warning :====dont get the edge hot when grinding take your time. you will find it has the proper temper for a good striker without having to temper-- NOTE: If you use water to quinch it will make the striker too hard and brittal---and you will have to draw it to keep it from breaking--- to case a frizzen i normally hold the frizzen in a vise by the attachment part with the strikeing side up-but first I dip the frizzen in 10 weight oil , or sperm oil, or bear grease, i then hold the frizzen by the attachment end and whirl it around in the casonite---i then place it in the vise with the frisen striker side up and put as much casenite on the frizzen as i can get on it. i take my torch and heat to a straw color--- i place a bucket of water under the frizzen very close to the vise so that when i reliese the vise it will fall into the water. should be no more than 12 to 18 inches away- heat to a straw color and hold for at least 2 to 4 min---keeping the heat on the frizzen i reliece the vise and let the frizzen fall into the water---It will make a sound like a gun going off---a large crack- i then draw the frizzen because it will be extremely hard and brittal---dont draw it too much or you will defeat the case hardening---I use comercial casenite---usto mix up my own stuff but now do it the easy way---can buy from most gun suppliers--- brownelle or even dixie---I have a can that i have been using for anout 8 or 10 years--- you can do the same to the striker if you cannot get it to temper correctly and it will work--- remember water makes it brittal and you will have to draw it so it wont break like glass------- IRON TOUNG COME ON LINE AND TELL HIM HOW A SMITH WOULD DO THE TEMPERING-- I AM NOT A SMITTY OR A FORGE PERSON ---THIS TAKES A LOT OF TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE----i CAN CASE A PART OR TEMPER BUT IT'S USALLY A TRIAL OR ERROR THING FOR ME--- EVEN THOUGH I DO HAVE A HEAT TREAT FURNICE AND USE IT MOST OF THE TIME WITH MY GUN PARTS THAT I MAKE--- have made a many a mainspring and had them snap the first time i put tension on them because of them bring too hard and brittal or having a mark in the metal the wrong way--- spend several hrs making one and break it will kina make you say funny words to the walls of the shop and to everything else that is in there--- TEMPERING AND HEAT TREATING IS A SCIENCE THAT I AM NOT A EXPERT IN BUT HAVE BEEN FORCED TO DABBLE IN A LOT SO ----I KNOW THERE IS A BUNCH ON THE LIST THAT CAN HELP YOU OUT IF THIS PALABER DOESNT---- JUST POST YOUR QUESTIONS AND SOMEONE OUT THERE HAS THE EXPERTIESE---PROBABLY MORE THAN ME----- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:24:14 -0600 (CST) mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) writes: >>I had a striker that worked >>well enough. I >>threw it on the burner when I found it thinking it wouldn't hurt(I >was >>browning a pistol barrel). Now I find the darn thing, the striker, >has >>gone soft. Did I do wrong heating it up? >>I have other stikers but would like to know if it is shot enough to >have >>made into a firepit hanger or something. > >All isn't lost. It just has to be retempered. Any smithy could do it >for >you. I think it has something to do with how it's quenched. I have >one >that was a "C" shape and I wanted to close off one of the ends to hold >a >thong, so I had a smith do it. After it was closed he had to reharden >it. >I seem to remember him quenching it in oil, but there may have been >another >step there somewhere. > >Good luck. No need to retire it as a pot hook yet. > >HBC > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Curator of History >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University >806/742-2442 Box 43191 >FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:09:00 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft thakns for the good input i knew there was some good knife makers out ther that would help him out---i gave him a method of casehardening---it might not be good but it' the way i do it--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:01:47 +0000 "Tommy Edge" writes: >> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:30 -0500 >> From: jdsteach@dwave.net >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Cc: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft >> Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> darn thing, the striker, has gone soft. No spark and now has >> >Heat it up till it is a dull red in the shade not bright sun light >then quench in 10 to 20 weight oil then sand it off till part is >shinning then heat to straw color. > > >Thank You Tommy Edge > > I make Knives. >http://www.nex.net/tedge/ > >A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:26:20 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit Gail,Medicine Bear and Kirk, As with the note I sent to Kirk, the most important thing you can take to your first rondy is a good attitude. With that, you will get advised, loaned clothing if necessary, allowed to shoot others' guns, fed, invited to camp-fires and filled with tall tales of derring-do. Your intent to learn is as important as your stuff being period correct. With regard to 'non-period' items, most rendezvous' will allow them as long as they are kept totally concealed. And, although most of the AMM guys are as correct as it gets, I do know those that have had mocs made over pac-boot linings for use in the snow, and more than one that sleeps on a therma-rest inside their bedroll. They may use the claim that its for medical reasons, but I think not. Hope this helps some. PJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:42:06 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan pants - --------------84B510C3FE29C1FA7011F4CD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Red Hawk: Couldn't agree more with your lines on expense. I will venture to say that I think what makes Yellow Chrome Tanned Buckskin undesirable as an inexpensive substitute for brain tan is its color and its physical characteristics. You have come up with a good way to take care of the color and I would like to suggest a way to make it physically a better garment material. The main problem with this leather for garments is that the hair side or scarf skin is allowed to remain on during and after the tanning process. What gives brain tan its warmth and wearability is the lack of this scarf skin. The leather can breath and does not stretch out of shape once you have stretched or sized it just before cutting and sewing. What needs to be done with chrome tanned leather is to take the scarf skin off! My friend Tom Crooks worked out a system for doing this using a power sander and the resultant product is "almost like brain tan". I am going to visit him this weekend and I will refresh my memory on the particulars of his technique and pass it on to those that wish to use it. I still hold with my original thoughts in that it is better to wait until the real thing is acquired but I acknowledge that some folks will not be able to afford brain tan or will not take the effort to make their own. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' MIA3WOLVES@aol.com wrote: > I concur that a well done brain tan is the best for making pants, etc. > However, it is VERY expensive if you are not tanning it yourself. I use it in > my quillwork but I have found a good alternative for my native american > dresses. I purchase pure white deer hides and make the garment with the rough > side out. After that I soak it in a solution of tea and coffee. This gives > it the color of a very tan creamy brain tan. The buckskin is, also, very > soft. Actually it as soft as some of the poorly done brain tan that I have > felt. I can do a dress for around $100. Pants would probably run less. Most > folks comment on how pretty the brain tan dress looks. > > Red Hawk > > MIA3WOLVES@AOL.COM - --------------84B510C3FE29C1FA7011F4CD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Red Hawk:

Couldn't agree more with your lines on expense. I will venture to say that I think what makes Yellow Chrome Tanned Buckskin undesirable as an inexpensive substitute for brain tan is its color and its physical characteristics. You have come up with a good way to take care of the color and I would like to suggest a way to make it physically a better garment material.

The main problem with this leather for garments is that the hair side or scarf skin is allowed to remain on during and after the tanning process. What gives brain tan its warmth and wearability is the lack of this scarf skin. The leather can breath and does not stretch out of shape once you have stretched or sized it just before cutting and sewing. What needs to be done with chrome tanned leather is to take the scarf skin off!

My friend Tom Crooks worked out a system for doing this using a power sander and the resultant product is "almost like brain tan". I am going to visit him this weekend and I will refresh my memory on the particulars of his technique and pass it on to those that wish to use it.

I still hold with my original thoughts in that it is better to wait until the real thing is acquired but I acknowledge that some folks will not be able to afford brain tan or will not take the effort to make their own. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

MIA3WOLVES@aol.com wrote:

I concur that a well done brain tan is the best for making pants, etc.
However, it is VERY expensive if you are not tanning it yourself.  I use it in
my quillwork but I have found a good alternative for my native american
dresses.  I purchase pure white deer hides and make the garment with the rough
side out.  After that I soak it in a solution of tea and coffee.  This gives
it the color of a very tan creamy brain tan.  The buckskin is, also, very
soft. Actually  it as soft as some of the  poorly done brain tan that I have
felt.  I can do a dress for around $100.  Pants would probably run less.  Most
folks comment on how pretty the brain tan dress looks.

Red Hawk

MIA3WOLVES@AOL.COM

  - --------------84B510C3FE29C1FA7011F4CD-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:06:32 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looking forward..... Gail: Glad to hear that you got hooked up with someone in your neighborhood to mentor with. Have fun and let use know how it went. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Gail Carbiener wrote: > To all: > The responses to my (and others) inquiries about the first vous were > terrific! I have printed every one and will do my best to enjoy. Sincere > thanks to all. > > I live in Central Oregon and have been contacted by one that is going to > the vous in Idaho sponsored by the Lewis Fork Free Trappers. > > Thanks again -- can't wait > > Gail Carbiener ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:29:02 -0400 From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: brain tan pants Mr. Crooks wrote an article on just that in the April97 issue of Muzzleblasts.=20 =20 Kirk Mill -----Original Message----- From: Roger Lahti [SMTP:lahtirog@gte.net] Sent: Thursday, July 30, 1998 1:42 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan pants My friend Tom Crooks worked out a system for doing this using a power sander and the resultant product is "almost like brain tan". I am going to visit him this weekend and I will refresh my memory on the particulars of his technique and pass it on to those that wish to use = it.=20 YMOS=20 Capt. Lahti'=20 MIA3WOLVES@aol.com wrote:=20 I concur that a well done brain tan is the best for making pants, etc.=20 However, it is VERY expensive if you are not tanning it yourself.=A0 I use it in=20 my quillwork but I have found a good alternative for my native american=20 dresses.=A0 I purchase pure white deer hides and make the garment with the rough=20 side out.=A0 After that I soak it in a solution of tea and coffee.=A0 This gives=20 it the color of a very tan creamy brain tan.=A0 The buckskin is, also, very=20 soft. Actually=A0 it as soft as some of the=A0 poorly done brain tan that I have=20 felt.=A0 I can do a dress for around $100.=A0 Pants would probably run less.=A0 Most=20 folks comment on how pretty the brain tan dress looks.=20 Red Hawk=20 MIA3WOLVES@AOL.COM =A0 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:25:19 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants Well, it looks like the votes are in. The leggings will stay leggings, at least for now. I don't wear breechclouts because I never had one that was comfortable enough. That's why I contemplated stitching a seat and front onto the leggings and make pants. The guy who made them and gave them to me thought it was a good idea if that would allow me to get some use out of them. I failed to mention that my friend who made them IS Lakota (Sihasapa) so they are indeed authentic Lakota leggings. His wife is Oglalla. Did I mention that he also gave me a Lakota war shirt? I have no plans to alter it, because it fits already. He and I are about the same build, and he made it for himself some years ago. He is altering a pair of cav pants into leggings (I love the irony) because he likes the pockets. Apparently, historically, this was done for the (post CW) Indian Wars period, but does anyone know if they did it during the Dragoon period? Logic says yes, but it's nice to have documentation. TIA, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #112 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.