From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1208 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, June 14 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1208 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List:Trip to Montana -       Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse -       Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse -       Re: MtMan-List:Trip to Montana -       Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse -       Re: MtMan-List:Trip to Montana -       Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:57:02 -0600 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Trip to Montana Masrk, I'd have to look on a map, but with luck you are between Livingston and Butte where you can go to the three forks of the Missouri west of Bozeman. Bozeman Pass itself between Livingston and Bozeman was one James "Ol Gabe" Bridger used if not pioneered. Depending upon where you are coming from, Idaho has Pierre's Hole, which is the valley west of Jackson Hole...back side of the Tetons, as well as a replica of Ft. Hall in Pocatello. Wyoming has South Pass, not to mention the site of the first rondezvous near the Hamms Fork of the Henry's Fork, Ft. Bridger and the Yellowstone country. The South Platte heads somewhere in that vicinity. Utah has places made famous by Ashley in 1825. Also there are lots of places Lewis and Clark wrote about and visited through Montana, Idaho and points both east and west. I hope you don't run out of time. Sparks MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: >Hello the Camp >I am making a trip to Montana for a doings SW of Butte the first of July. >Haven't been past Billings before. What are some must see and worth seeing along >the way from Billings west That relate to the fur trade and L&C? >Thanks Mark "Roadkill" Loader > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:37:50 -0600 From: "Steve Banks" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33261.00F86080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Ormond, I had to check my source again and I would refer you to the following: page 21 of the journal - Jan. 8th, paraphrasing, "the horses were dead = and the men were figuring to pack their mechandize on the two mules and = themselves" page 40 of the journal - April 20th, again the two mules are alive but = weak and the party stops because they've found sweet cottonwood and are = allowing the mules to "recruit from their suffering". I believe the = mules and men did make it back to the mouth of the Laramie River in = June. The opinion I expressed about the cottonwood trees was that of a = botanist who has spent many years studying the trees of Wyoming. In the = area where Zenas spent the winter, as near as anyone can tell, there is = only one species of cottonwood. And that provides the mystery of why at = the downstream area of the river the tree bark was edible. I don't know = if in the winter of 1831 that there were two species of cottonwood = growing in that area. I have been in that area a number of times, = hunting, fishing etc, and in my limited knowledge of botany, have not = noticed more than one type of cottonwood. In fact there are very few = trees even left!! I have wondered where that trapping party found = enough trees to build what buildings they had. There is know remaining = evidence of their camp, so the mystery remains! Steve Banks=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wynn Ormond=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:26 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse Mr Banks=20 =20 It has been a while since I read Zenas but I believe all the animals = died the mules were just slower about it. The men carried everything = out on their own backs. Secondly, there is nothing mysterious like = chemicals in the trees. There are different types of cottonwoods and = the broad leaf has a sweet inner bark the narrow doesn't.=20 =20 However dispite Zenas's experience and as I posted before there is = plenty of evidnece that this method of wintering horses worked most of = the time. Wynn Ormond =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steve Banks=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:58 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse Dorothy, Zenas Leonard's account from "Adventures of a Mountain Man:" gives = an answer to your question. They had to stay a winter on the upper = Laramie River and this was their experience. You can read about it = starting on page 19 - 21. The cottonwood bark here had a different = characteristic from the bark they had been feeding lower downstream on = the Laramie River. Unfortunatly the horses starved because they refused = to eat the bark in this winter camp. Only the mules survived. I've = investigated this with a friend of mine and his opinion was that the = bitterness was caused by some mineral that was absorbed in the tree. = There is a lot of a low grade aluminum mineral around the Laramie area = and this might be a possibility. For your interest, I have retraced = Leonard's route from the mouth of the Laramie River to its source at = Chambers Lake at the foot of Cameron Pass in Colorado. Hope this helps = some. Steve Banks ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DOROTHY MORRIS=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:57 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse Can anyone tell me how a Mountain Man took fed his horse while up = at a trapping camp during a Rocky Mountain Winter? I hear the horses = ate the inner bark of the cottonwood tree, but how was it gathered and = by whom? Did the horses roam at will to eat and risk being food for = wolves? Were there enough cottonwood trees? What else did they eat? = What were the logistics of this situation? Anyone know? Love to hear = from you. =20 DKM - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33261.00F86080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Ormond,
I had to check my source again and I would refer = you to=20 the following:
page 21 of the journal - Jan. 8th, = paraphrasing, =20 "the horses were dead and the men were figuring to pack their mechandize = on the=20 two mules and themselves"
page 40 of the journal - April 20th, again the = two mules=20 are alive but weak and the party stops because they've found sweet = cottonwood=20 and are allowing the mules to "recruit from their suffering".  I = believe=20 the mules and men did make it back to the mouth of the Laramie River in=20 June.
The opinion I expressed about the cottonwood = trees was=20 that of a botanist who has spent many years studying the trees of = Wyoming. =20 In the area where Zenas spent the winter, as near as anyone can tell, = there is=20 only one species of cottonwood.  And that provides the mystery of = why at=20 the downstream area of the river the tree bark was edible.  I don't = know if=20 in the winter of 1831 that there were two species of cottonwood growing = in that=20 area.  I have been in that area a number of times, hunting, fishing = etc,=20 and in my limited knowledge of botany, have not noticed more than one = type of=20 cottonwood.  In fact there are very few trees even left!!  I = have=20 wondered where that trapping party found enough trees to build what = buildings=20 they had.  There is know remaining evidence of their camp, so the = mystery=20 remains!
Steve Banks 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wynn = Ormond=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 = 10:26=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Mountain Man's=20 horse

Mr Banks
 
It has been a while since I read Zenas but I = believe all=20 the animals died the mules were just slower about it.  The=20 men carried everything out on their own backs.  Secondly, = there is=20 nothing mysterious like chemicals in the trees.  There are = different=20 types of cottonwoods and the broad leaf has a sweet inner bark = the narrow=20 doesn't. 
 
However dispite Zenas's experience and as I = posted=20 before there is plenty of evidnece that this method of wintering = horses=20 worked most of the time.
Wynn Ormond
  
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Steve Banks=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 = 8:58=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Mountain Man's=20 horse

Dorothy,
Zenas Leonard's account from "Adventures of = a Mountain=20 Man:" gives an answer to your question.  They had to stay a = winter on=20 the upper Laramie River and this was their experience.  You can = read=20 about it starting on page 19 - 21.  The cottonwood bark here = had a=20 different characteristic from the bark they had been feeding lower=20 downstream on the Laramie River.  Unfortunatly the horses = starved=20 because they refused to eat the bark in this winter camp.  Only = the=20 mules survived.  I've investigated this with a friend of mine = and his=20 opinion was that the bitterness was caused by some mineral that was = absorbed=20 in the tree.  There is a lot of a low grade aluminum mineral = around the=20 Laramie area and this might be a possibility.  For your = interest, I=20 have retraced Leonard's route from the mouth of the Laramie River to = its=20 source at Chambers Lake at the foot of Cameron Pass in = Colorado.  Hope=20 this helps some.
Steve Banks
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 DOROTHY = MORRIS=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 = 12:57=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Mountain Man's=20 horse

Can anyone tell me how a Mountain Man took fed his horse = while up at=20 a trapping camp during a Rocky Mountain Winter?  I hear the = horses=20 ate the inner bark of the cottonwood tree, but how was it gathered = and by=20 whom? Did the horses roam at will to eat and risk being food for=20 wolves? Were there enough cottonwood trees?  What = else did=20 they eat?  What were the logistics of this situation?  = Anyone=20 know?  Love to hear from you.
 
=
DKM
- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33261.00F86080-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 11:51:07 -0700 From: "DOROTHY MORRIS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C3326B.3DE03860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Mr. Ormand and Mr. Banks, Thank you both for your information on the Mountain Men's horses that I = originally requested. I have learned a great deal.=20 Now another question and this regards the actual months that a Mountain = Man spent working his trapping area. Did he go up into the mountains in = Autumn and remain until Spring or did he only go toward the springtime?=20 Dorothy - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steve Banks=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:37 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse Mr. Ormond, I had to check my source again and I would refer you to the following: page 21 of the journal - Jan. 8th, paraphrasing, "the horses were = dead and the men were figuring to pack their mechandize on the two mules = and themselves" page 40 of the journal - April 20th, again the two mules are alive but = weak and the party stops because they've found sweet cottonwood and are = allowing the mules to "recruit from their suffering". I believe the = mules and men did make it back to the mouth of the Laramie River in = June. The opinion I expressed about the cottonwood trees was that of a = botanist who has spent many years studying the trees of Wyoming. In the = area where Zenas spent the winter, as near as anyone can tell, there is = only one species of cottonwood. And that provides the mystery of why at = the downstream area of the river the tree bark was edible. I don't know = if in the winter of 1831 that there were two species of cottonwood = growing in that area. I have been in that area a number of times, = hunting, fishing etc, and in my limited knowledge of botany, have not = noticed more than one type of cottonwood. In fact there are very few = trees even left!! I have wondered where that trapping party found = enough trees to build what buildings they had. There is know remaining = evidence of their camp, so the mystery remains! Steve Banks=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wynn Ormond=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:26 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse Mr Banks=20 It has been a while since I read Zenas but I believe all the animals = died the mules were just slower about it. The men carried everything = out on their own backs. Secondly, there is nothing mysterious like = chemicals in the trees. There are different types of cottonwoods and = the broad leaf has a sweet inner bark the narrow doesn't.=20 However dispite Zenas's experience and as I posted before there is = plenty of evidnece that this method of wintering horses worked most of = the time. Wynn Ormond =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steve Banks=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:58 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse Dorothy, Zenas Leonard's account from "Adventures of a Mountain Man:" gives = an answer to your question. They had to stay a winter on the upper = Laramie River and this was their experience. You can read about it = starting on page 19 - 21. The cottonwood bark here had a different = characteristic from the bark they had been feeding lower downstream on = the Laramie River. Unfortunatly the horses starved because they refused = to eat the bark in this winter camp. Only the mules survived. I've = investigated this with a friend of mine and his opinion was that the = bitterness was caused by some mineral that was absorbed in the tree. = There is a lot of a low grade aluminum mineral around the Laramie area = and this might be a possibility. For your interest, I have retraced = Leonard's route from the mouth of the Laramie River to its source at = Chambers Lake at the foot of Cameron Pass in Colorado. Hope this helps = some. Steve Banks ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DOROTHY MORRIS=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:57 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse Can anyone tell me how a Mountain Man took fed his horse while = up at a trapping camp during a Rocky Mountain Winter? I hear the horses = ate the inner bark of the cottonwood tree, but how was it gathered and = by whom? Did the horses roam at will to eat and risk being food for = wolves? Were there enough cottonwood trees? What else did they eat? = What were the logistics of this situation? Anyone know? Love to hear = from you. DKM - ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C3326B.3DE03860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Mr. Ormand and Mr. Banks,
 
Thank you both for your information on the Mountain Men's horses = that I=20 originally requested.  I have learned a great deal. 
 
Now another question and this regards the actual months that a=20 Mountain Man spent working his trapping area. Did he go up = into the=20 mountains in Autumn and remain until Spring or did he only go = toward the=20 springtime? 
 
Dorothy
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Banks
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 = 9:37=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Mountain Man's=20 horse

Mr. Ormond,
I had to check my source again and I would = refer you to=20 the following:
page 21 of the journal - Jan. 8th, = paraphrasing, =20 "the horses were dead and the men were figuring to pack their = mechandize on=20 the two mules and themselves"
page 40 of the journal - April 20th, again the = two mules=20 are alive but weak and the party stops because they've found sweet = cottonwood=20 and are allowing the mules to "recruit from their suffering".  I = believe=20 the mules and men did make it back to the mouth of the Laramie River = in=20 June.
The opinion I expressed about the cottonwood = trees was=20 that of a botanist who has spent many years studying the trees of=20 Wyoming.  In the area where Zenas spent the winter, as near as = anyone can=20 tell, there is only one species of cottonwood.  And that provides = the=20 mystery of why at the downstream area of the river the tree bark was=20 edible.  I don't know if in the winter of 1831 that there were = two=20 species of cottonwood growing in that area.  I have been in that = area a=20 number of times, hunting, fishing etc, and in my limited knowledge of = botany,=20 have not noticed more than one type of cottonwood.  In fact there = are=20 very few trees even left!!  I have wondered where that trapping = party=20 found enough trees to build what buildings they had.  There is = know=20 remaining evidence of their camp, so the mystery remains!
Steve Banks 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wynn = Ormond=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 = 10:26=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Mountain Man's=20 horse

Mr Banks
 
It has been a while since I read Zenas but I = believe=20 all the animals died the mules were just slower about it.  The=20 men carried everything out on their own backs.  Secondly, = there is=20 nothing mysterious like chemicals in the trees.  There are = different=20 types of cottonwoods and the broad leaf has a sweet inner bark = the=20 narrow doesn't. 
 
However dispite Zenas's experience and as I = posted=20 before there is plenty of evidnece that this method of wintering = horses=20 worked most of the time.
Wynn Ormond
  
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Steve=20 Banks
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, = 2003 8:58=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Mountain=20 Man's horse

Dorothy,
Zenas Leonard's account from "Adventures = of a=20 Mountain Man:" gives an answer to your question.  They had to = stay a=20 winter on the upper Laramie River and this was their = experience.  You=20 can read about it starting on page 19 - 21.  The cottonwood = bark here=20 had a different characteristic from the bark they had been feeding = lower=20 downstream on the Laramie River.  Unfortunatly the horses = starved=20 because they refused to eat the bark in this winter camp.  = Only the=20 mules survived.  I've investigated this with a friend of mine = and his=20 opinion was that the bitterness was caused by some mineral that = was=20 absorbed in the tree.  There is a lot of a low grade aluminum = mineral=20 around the Laramie area and this might be a possibility.  For = your=20 interest, I have retraced Leonard's route from the mouth of the = Laramie=20 River to its source at Chambers Lake at the foot of Cameron Pass = in=20 Colorado.  Hope this helps some.
Steve Banks
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 DOROTHY=20 MORRIS
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Sunday, June 08, = 2003 12:57=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Mountain Man's=20 horse

Can anyone tell me how a Mountain Man took fed his horse = while up=20 at a trapping camp during a Rocky Mountain Winter?  I hear = the=20 horses ate the inner bark of the cottonwood tree, but how was it = gathered and by whom? Did the horses roam at will to eat and = risk being=20 food for wolves? Were there enough cottonwood = trees? =20 What else did they eat?  What were the logistics of this=20 situation?  Anyone know?  Love to hear from you.
 
=
DKM
<= /BODY> - ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C3326B.3DE03860-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:06:03 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Trip to Montana Mouth of the Bighorn river on the Yellowstone is the site of Fort Manuel Lisa. The first fur trade post or building for that matter in Montana. Nothing remains of the post but it is a beautiful place to see. bb > Masrk, > I'd have to look on a map, but with luck you are between Livingston and > Butte where you can go to the three forks of the Missouri west of > Bozeman. Bozeman Pass itself between Livingston and Bozeman was one > James "Ol Gabe" Bridger used if not pioneered. Depending upon where you > are coming from, Idaho has Pierre's Hole, which is the valley west of > Jackson Hole...back side of the Tetons, as well as a replica of Ft. Hall > in Pocatello. Wyoming has South Pass, not to mention the site of the > first rondezvous near the Hamms Fork of the Henry's Fork, Ft. Bridger > and the Yellowstone country. The South Platte heads somewhere in that > vicinity. Utah has places made famous by Ashley in 1825. Also there > are lots of places Lewis and Clark wrote about and visited through > Montana, Idaho and points both east and west. > > I hope you don't run out of time. > Sparks > > MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: > >>Hello the Camp >>I am making a trip to Montana for a doings SW of Butte the first of July. >>Haven't been past Billings before. What are some must see and worth >> seeing along >>the way from Billings west That relate to the fur trade and L&C? >>Thanks Mark "Roadkill" Loader >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:17:13 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse Most "mountain men" or trappers as they should be properly be called stayed in the beaver country year round or traveled to a distant fort or rendezvous for supplies as needed. The large majority of the beaver caught in the west were most likely caught in the rivered basins of the west. The vast Dakota's and eastern plains of Wyoming, Montana,Colorado provided a huge amount of the fur trade era. Which is ironically far from the mountains. Regardless of where they were they most likely found nice warm valleys or forts to winter in. And they trapped year round untill the rivers froze rock solid or the beaver were all gone. The fall hunt commenced after the rendezvous and ran untill freeze up, the spring season ran from ice off untill all the beaver were gone or it was time to travel to the rendezvous site and they trapped along the way to it as well. A least this is what I've been reading in journals. beaverboy > Dear Mr. Ormand and Mr. Banks, > > Thank you both for your information on the Mountain Men's horses that I > originally requested. I have learned a great deal. > > Now another question and this regards the actual months that a Mountain > Man spent working his trapping area. Did he go up into the mountains in > Autumn and remain until Spring or did he only go toward the springtime? > > Dorothy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steve Banks > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:37 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse > > > Mr. Ormond, > I had to check my source again and I would refer you to the following: > page 21 of the journal - Jan. 8th, paraphrasing, "the horses were dead > and the men were figuring to pack their mechandize on the two mules and > themselves" > page 40 of the journal - April 20th, again the two mules are alive but > weak and the party stops because they've found sweet cottonwood and are > allowing the mules to "recruit from their suffering". I believe the > mules and men did make it back to the mouth of the Laramie River in > June. > The opinion I expressed about the cottonwood trees was that of a > botanist who has spent many years studying the trees of Wyoming. In the > area where Zenas spent the winter, as near as anyone can tell, there is > only one species of cottonwood. And that provides the mystery of why at > the downstream area of the river the tree bark was edible. I don't know > if in the winter of 1831 that there were two species of cottonwood > growing in that area. I have been in that area a number of times, > hunting, fishing etc, and in my limited knowledge of botany, have not > noticed more than one type of cottonwood. In fact there are very few > trees even left!! I have wondered where that trapping party found > enough trees to build what buildings they had. There is know remaining > evidence of their camp, so the mystery remains! > Steve Banks > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wynn Ormond > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:26 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse > > > Mr Banks > > It has been a while since I read Zenas but I believe all the animals > died the mules were just slower about it. The men carried everything > out on their own backs. Secondly, there is nothing mysterious like > chemicals in the trees. There are different types of cottonwoods and > the broad leaf has a sweet inner bark the narrow doesn't. > > However dispite Zenas's experience and as I posted before there is > plenty of evidnece that this method of wintering horses worked most of > the time. > Wynn Ormond > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steve Banks > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:58 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse > > > Dorothy, > Zenas Leonard's account from "Adventures of a Mountain Man:" gives > an answer to your question. They had to stay a winter on the upper > Laramie River and this was their experience. You can read about it > starting on page 19 - 21. The cottonwood bark here had a different > characteristic from the bark they had been feeding lower downstream > on the Laramie River. Unfortunatly the horses starved because they > refused to eat the bark in this winter camp. Only the mules > survived. I've investigated this with a friend of mine and his > opinion was that the bitterness was caused by some mineral that was > absorbed in the tree. There is a lot of a low grade aluminum > mineral around the Laramie area and this might be a possibility. > For your interest, I have retraced Leonard's route from the mouth of > the Laramie River to its source at Chambers Lake at the foot of > Cameron Pass in Colorado. Hope this helps some. > Steve Banks > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DOROTHY MORRIS > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:57 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse > > > Can anyone tell me how a Mountain Man took fed his horse while up > at a trapping camp during a Rocky Mountain Winter? I hear the > horses ate the inner bark of the cottonwood tree, but how was it > gathered and by whom? Did the horses roam at will to eat and risk > being food for wolves? Were there enough cottonwood trees? What > else did they eat? What were the logistics of this situation? > Anyone know? Love to hear from you. > > DKM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:19:57 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Trip to Montana Pompey's Pillar is also interesing to see and is only 30 miles or so east of Billings. It has Clark's name scratced on it and is the only tangible evidence of the expedition in the west. bb > Hello the Camp > I am making a trip to Montana for a doings SW of Butte the first of July. > Haven't been past Billings before. What are some must see and worth seeing > along > the way from Billings west That relate to the fur trade and L&C? > Thanks Mark "Roadkill" Loader > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:33:48 -0600 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse - --------------070605010107010601000401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree w/ Beaverboy on them staying in beaver country, and that many came from the larger river valley bottoms. They did trap headwaters, as lots of places the valleys get very broad and somewhat flatbottomed so water can slow and beaver dam the areas. You need to look at weather in the west. Winters are right harsh, especially in those nice river 'holes' like Jackson Hole, and in Idaho's Stanley Basin (like 45 to 60 below zero). I would guess that most would be down in the lower river valleys that time of year where the water was still moving (although I have seen water running in the Salmon River when it was 30 below...lots of slush ice with it). Jim Bridger used to talk about the three seasons in the Rocky Mountains. Those being July, August and winter. As it is now, lots of places in the high country we don't get wildflowers until June and even sometimes July because they don't like to come up through several feet of melting snow. One ski area near here (n. utah) was bragging last winter about receiving "100-inches in 100 hours" that being snow. Not bad for being in the fifth year of drought. Sparks DOROTHY MORRIS wrote: > Dear Mr. Ormand and Mr. Banks, > > Thank you both for your information on the Mountain Men's horses that > I originally requested. I have learned a great deal. > > Now another question and this regards the actual months that a > Mountain Man spent working his trapping area. Did he go up into the > mountains in Autumn and remain until Spring or did he only go toward > the springtime? > > Dorothy > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Steve Banks > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:37 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse > > Mr. Ormond, > I had to check my source again and I would refer you to the following: > page 21 of the journal - Jan. 8th, paraphrasing, "the horses were > dead and the men were figuring to pack their mechandize on the two > mules and themselves" > page 40 of the journal - April 20th, again the two mules are alive > but weak and the party stops because they've found sweet > cottonwood and are allowing the mules to "recruit from their > suffering". I believe the mules and men did make it back to the > mouth of the Laramie River in June. > The opinion I expressed about the cottonwood trees was that of a > botanist who has spent many years studying the trees of Wyoming. > In the area where Zenas spent the winter, as near as anyone can > tell, there is only one species of cottonwood. And that provides > the mystery of why at the downstream area of the river the tree > bark was edible. I don't know if in the winter of 1831 that there > were two species of cottonwood growing in that area. I have been > in that area a number of times, hunting, fishing etc, and in my > limited knowledge of botany, have not noticed more than one type > of cottonwood. In fact there are very few trees even left!! I > have wondered where that trapping party found enough trees to > build what buildings they had. There is know remaining evidence > of their camp, so the mystery remains! > Steve Banks > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wynn Ormond > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:26 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse > > Mr Banks > > It has been a while since I read Zenas but I believe all the > animals died the mules were just slower about it. The > men carried everything out on their own backs. Secondly, > there is nothing mysterious like chemicals in the trees. > There are different types of cottonwoods and the broad leaf > has a sweet inner bark the narrow doesn't. > > However dispite Zenas's experience and as I posted before > there is plenty of evidnece that this method of wintering > horses worked most of the time. > Wynn Ormond > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steve Banks > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:58 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse > > Dorothy, > Zenas Leonard's account from "Adventures of a Mountain > Man:" gives an answer to your question. They had to stay > a winter on the upper Laramie River and this was their > experience. You can read about it starting on page 19 - > 21. The cottonwood bark here had a different > characteristic from the bark they had been feeding lower > downstream on the Laramie River. Unfortunatly the horses > starved because they refused to eat the bark in this > winter camp. Only the mules survived. I've investigated > this with a friend of mine and his opinion was that the > bitterness was caused by some mineral that was absorbed in > the tree. There is a lot of a low grade aluminum mineral > around the Laramie area and this might be a possibility. > For your interest, I have retraced Leonard's route from > the mouth of the Laramie River to its source at Chambers > Lake at the foot of Cameron Pass in Colorado. Hope this > helps some. > Steve Banks > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DOROTHY MORRIS > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:57 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse > > Can anyone tell me how a Mountain Man took fed his > horse while up at a trapping camp during a Rocky > Mountain Winter? I hear the horses ate the inner bark > of the cottonwood tree, but how was it gathered and by > whom? Did the horses roam at will to eat and risk > being food for wolves? Were there enough cottonwood > trees? What else did they eat? What were the > logistics of this situation? Anyone know? Love to > hear from you. > > DKM > - --------------070605010107010601000401 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree w/ Beaverboy on them staying in beaver country, and that many came from the larger river valley bottoms.  They did trap headwaters, as lots of places the valleys get very broad and somewhat flatbottomed so water can slow and beaver dam the areas.  You need to look at weather in the west.  Winters are right harsh, especially in those nice river 'holes' like Jackson Hole, and in Idaho's Stanley Basin (like 45 to 60 below zero).  I would guess that most would be down in the lower river valleys that time of year where the water was still moving (although I have seen water running in the Salmon River when it was 30 below...lots of slush ice with it).  Jim Bridger used to talk about the three seasons in the Rocky Mountains.  Those being July, August and winter.  As it is now, lots of places in the high country we don't get wildflowers until June and even sometimes July because they don't like to come up through several feet of melting snow.  One ski area near here (n. utah) was bragging last winter about receiving "100-inches in 100 hours" that being snow.  Not bad for being in the fifth year of drought.

Sparks

DOROTHY MORRIS wrote:
Dear Mr. Ormand and Mr. Banks,
 
Thank you both for your information on the Mountain Men's horses that I originally requested.  I have learned a great deal. 
 
Now another question and this regards the actual months that a Mountain Man spent working his trapping area. Did he go up into the mountains in Autumn and remain until Spring or did he only go toward the springtime? 
 
Dorothy
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse

Mr. Ormond,
I had to check my source again and I would refer you to the following:
page 21 of the journal - Jan. 8th, paraphrasing,  "the horses were dead and the men were figuring to pack their mechandize on the two mules and themselves"
page 40 of the journal - April 20th, again the two mules are alive but weak and the party stops because they've found sweet cottonwood and are allowing the mules to "recruit from their suffering".  I believe the mules and men did make it back to the mouth of the Laramie River in June.
The opinion I expressed about the cottonwood trees was that of a botanist who has spent many years studying the trees of Wyoming.  In the area where Zenas spent the winter, as near as anyone can tell, there is only one species of cottonwood.  And that provides the mystery of why at the downstream area of the river the tree bark was edible.  I don't know if in the winter of 1831 that there were two species of cottonwood growing in that area.  I have been in that area a number of times, hunting, fishing etc, and in my limited knowledge of botany, have not noticed more than one type of cottonwood.  In fact there are very few trees even left!!  I have wondered where that trapping party found enough trees to build what buildings they had.  There is know remaining evidence of their camp, so the mystery remains!
Steve Banks 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse

Mr Banks
 
It has been a while since I read Zenas but I believe all the animals died the mules were just slower about it.  The men carried everything out on their own backs.  Secondly, there is nothing mysterious like chemicals in the trees.  There are different types of cottonwoods and the broad leaf has a sweet inner bark the narrow doesn't. 
 
However dispite Zenas's experience and as I posted before there is plenty of evidnece that this method of wintering horses worked most of the time.
Wynn Ormond
  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse

Dorothy,
Zenas Leonard's account from "Adventures of a Mountain Man:" gives an answer to your question.  They had to stay a winter on the upper Laramie River and this was their experience.  You can read about it starting on page 19 - 21.  The cottonwood bark here had a different characteristic from the bark they had been feeding lower downstream on the Laramie River.  Unfortunatly the horses starved because they refused to eat the bark in this winter camp.  Only the mules survived.  I've investigated this with a friend of mine and his opinion was that the bitterness was caused by some mineral that was absorbed in the tree.  There is a lot of a low grade aluminum mineral around the Laramie area and this might be a possibility.  For your interest, I have retraced Leonard's route from the mouth of the Laramie River to its source at Chambers Lake at the foot of Cameron Pass in Colorado.  Hope this helps some.
Steve Banks
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:57 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man's horse

Can anyone tell me how a Mountain Man took fed his horse while up at a trapping camp during a Rocky Mountain Winter?  I hear the horses ate the inner bark of the cottonwood tree, but how was it gathered and by whom? Did the horses roam at will to eat and risk being food for wolves? Were there enough cottonwood trees?  What else did they eat?  What were the logistics of this situation?  Anyone know?  Love to hear from you.
 
DKM

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