From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1237 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, September 10 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1237 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       MtMan-List: chiggers -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       MtMan-List: AMM on-line auction -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... -       RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... -       Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:54:03 EDT From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags - --part1_34.3edfb41d.2c90248b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to trade for horses. Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They Saddled The West" There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me the pictures. I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not done some homework be for making there saddles. Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already? For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortable bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I do so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also. See on the trail Crazy Cyot > > - --part1_34.3edfb41d.2c90248b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wynn

In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis=20= to trade for horses.
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexi= can saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be=20= all that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the gro= und seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They Sa= ddled The West"
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like= to me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who s= ent me the pictures.
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have no= t done some homework be for making there saddles.
 Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over=20= their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?  
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfort= able bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then=20= I do so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.=20
See on the trail
Crazy Cyot








- --part1_34.3edfb41d.2c90248b_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:12:54 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: chiggers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C37773.560D1C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a small farm and wear shorts all summer. Chiggers are a big = part of my summer farming 'experience'. While most of the commercial = repellants do work all right, the problem is remembering to use them. I collect a lot of chiggers and have learned to just suffer it = through until cool weather. But there is another solution. I'm selling the farm. Frank - ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C37773.560D1C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I have a small farm and wear shorts all summer. = Chiggers=20 are a big part of my summer farming 'experience'. While most of the = commercial=20 repellants do work all right, the problem is remembering to use = them.
    I collect a lot of chiggers and have learned to = just=20 suffer it through until cool weather.
    But there is another solution. I'm selling the=20 farm.
Frank
- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C37773.560D1C30-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:55:58 -0600 From: Ole Jensen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - --MS_Mac_OE_3146025358_89272_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Crazy, You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) from Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis Ole Wynn In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to trade for horses. Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They Saddled The West" There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me the pictures. I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not done some homework be for making there saddles. Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already? For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortable bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I do so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also. See on the trail Crazy Cyot - --MS_Mac_OE_3146025358_89272_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Crazy,
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style s= addles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) f= rom Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis
Ole
Wynn

In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to = trade for horses.
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican= saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all= that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground= seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They = Saddled The West"
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to= me to be Monkey Face  tapaderos on it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who= sent me the pictures.
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not d= one some homework be for making there saddles.
 Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over the= ir saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?  
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortabl= e bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I d= o so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.
See on the trail
Crazy Cyot











- --MS_Mac_OE_3146025358_89272_MIME_Part-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:31:28 -0700 From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! Hawk, Well I know I am going to spray down my cloths and bedding with that permethrin something fierce before my next late summer outing. From what they say and what others testify to, the stuff works. Capt. L - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:03 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! > cpt L > seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for > deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed > ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i > washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered > with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year > here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick > grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what > we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed > cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny > buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers--- > > > "Hawk" > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:41:44 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Back about '78 I acquired a set of saddle bags from Tater who got them from Tom Wright(?) of Ohio Village who researched and reproduced them down to the number of stitches per inch as 1812 Dragoon Saddle Bags. They are large and commodious and still serve me well. I do think self-made trap sacks/market wallets/colonial wallets of canvas, linen and various leather in a variety of sizes were much more common than what we consider "saddle bags". John... If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit of the American Mountain Men http://amm-auction.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:57:17 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C37792.AE5D8180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle BagsDon't mis-quote me to say the Spanish = saddles were not available. They obviously were. But both saddles = articles in the B of B claim that flat saddles were much more common. = Did we have one on our rack? I have talked to Lious and others who have = told me that Bob Schmitt did not claim to have a great deal of research = behind his saddles. That is not to pick on him but to say that it was = not his forte. He build saddles, with the time I spend arguing on the = intenet. The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is clearly an artists drawing of = a saddle. The signiture looks more like the kind you see on modern = drawings. I will have to do more research but if you are putting = together a book about saddles and you can't find old drawing to = illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some. The drawings show = buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back cinches. I = find it hard to believe these were period and in common practise. This = is just my speculation. Perhaps they are historical drawings but I have = my doubts. Even in these drawing I do not see half seats. =20 Using the spot between your ass and the saddle for a storage unit for = bedding is possible, Crazy but I think your stretching it. The more = time they spent setting a horse the less padding they probably used. =20 Bottom line -- You can't put taps, western stirrups or half seats in the = mountains and there is a perfectly acceptable alternatives you can. Wynn =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ole Jensen=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Crazy, You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish = style saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles = (fully riged) from Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis Ole Wynn=20 In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi = Shoshonis to trade for horses.=20 Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them = Mexican saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would = not be all that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same = for the ground seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In = the Book "They Saddled The West"=20 There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks = like to me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson = who sent me the pictures.=20 I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt = have not done some homework be for making there saddles.=20 Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over = their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already? =20 For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more = comfortable bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the = saddle then I do so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.=20 See on the trail=20 Crazy Cyot=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C37792.AE5D8180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Don't mis-quote me to say the Spanish = saddles were=20 not available.  They obviously were.  But both saddles = articles in the=20 B of B claim that flat saddles were much  more common.  Did we = have=20 one on our rack?  I have talked to Lious and others who have told = me that=20 Bob Schmitt did not claim to have a great deal of research behind his=20 saddles.  That is not to pick on him but to say that it was not his = forte.  He build saddles, with the time I spend arguing on the=20 intenet.
 
The picture that Crazy forwarded to me = is clearly=20 an artists drawing of a saddle.  The signiture looks more like the = kind you=20 see on modern drawings.  I will have to do more research but if you = are=20 putting together a book about saddles and you can't find old drawing to=20 illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some.  The drawings = show=20 buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back cinches.  = I find=20 it hard to believe these were period and in common practise.  This = is just=20 my speculation.  Perhaps they are historical drawings but I have my = doubts.  Even in these drawing I do not see half=20 seats.  
 
Using the spot between your ass = and=20 the saddle for a storage unit for bedding is possible, Crazy but I = think=20 your stretching it.  The more time they spent setting a horse the = less=20 padding they probably used.  
 
Bottom line -- You can't put taps, = western stirrups=20 or half seats in the mountains and there is a perfectly acceptable = alternatives=20 you can.
 
Wynn  
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ole=20 Jensen
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, = 2003 7:55=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: = Saddle=20 Bags

Crazy,
You are right on! Man Made Mobile = also=20 documents the use of spanish style saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. = purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) from Grimsley Saddle Co. in = St.=20 Louis
Ole
Wynn

In = Lewis and=20 Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to trade = for=20 horses.
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it = seems=20 them Mexican saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. = So I=20 would not be all that quick to rule out their use here in the = mountains.=20 Same for the ground seats and tapaderos for they were in use back = then. In=20 the Book "They Saddled The West"
There is a picture of a Spanish = saddle=20 ca. 1800 that has what looks like to me to be Monkey Face =  tapaderos on=20 it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me the pictures.
I = would not be=20 to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not done some = homework be for making there saddles.
 Why would all those=20 mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they = had a=20 nice comfy leather seat already?  
For the same reason I put = a lot=20 under my saddle makes for a more comfortable bed at night. I guess = they=20 spent a little more time in the saddle then I do so they wanted a = more=20 comfortable seat to sit on also.
See on the trail
Crazy Cyot =











<= /HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C37792.AE5D8180-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:57:58 -0700 From: dnelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Wynn Ormond wrote: > The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is clearly an artists drawing > of a saddle. The signiture looks more like the kind you see on modern > drawings. I will have to do more research but if you are putting > together a book about saddles and you can't find old drawing to > illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some. The drawings > show buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back > cinches. I find it hard to believe these were period and in common > practise. This is just my speculation. Perhaps they are historical > drawings but I have my doubts. Even in these drawing I do not see > half seats. The drawing that you are talking about was done by G. R. Vernam, one of the authors of the book They Saddle the West. Drawings are used by used both anthropologists and archaeologists because they show better what they are trying to show than a photo can. Archaeologists draw the recovered artifacts, not for you and me to look at, but so other researchers can see the artifact better. The Smithsonian book The Horse in Blackfoot Indian Culture uses line drawing the same way that Vernam used them in his book. Does that make the book of less value for research. You said there are buckles on that saddle Vernam drew, however I see no buckles on the saddle that is pictured. It's possible to find lots more pictures (photos and or drawings) of Mexican saddles if we must, but I think we all know what they look like. Were they used widely. Lets see what the Smithsoinan has to say about that. The Horse in Blackfoot Indian Culture on page 94, note number 52 regarding the text. "Other Plains and Plateau tribes appear to have followed the practice of using Spanish or American saddles whenever they could procure them. Lewis and Clark found some Spanish saddles among the Lemhi Shoshoni in 1805. (Coues, 1893, vol. 2 pp. 520, 569). Jacpues d'Eglise reported "saddles ...... in Mexican style" used by the Mandan in 1792 (Nasitir, 1927, p. 58). Scattered through the records of the American Fur Co. (papers in the N. Y. Historical Society) are listings of saddles bought by Pratte, Choutear and Co. of St. Louis. Sufficient quantities are listed to indicate that the saddles were purchased for the Indian trade and not merely for the use of field employees of the company. Maximilian (1833) said that the Mandan 'sometimes obtain saddles from the whites, which they line and ornament with red and blue cloth' (Maximillian, 1906, vol. 23 p. 345). These may have been the California saddle type, which Marcy termed the favorite of the mountain men (Marcy, 1859, pp. 118-120), and which seems to have been pictured in a number of Kurs' drawings of fur traders and a few Indians of the Upper Missouri in 1851-52 (Kurtz 1937)." Ewers also says in the same book on page 93 "We know the Piegan were familiar with Spanish saddles at least as early as 1787, when David Thompson saw a number of saddles a Piegan war party had brouight back from a raid on a Spanish party far to the south (Thompson, 1916, p. 371). He goes on to say in the same book that the Indians tried to adopt as much of the white man's saddlery as they could afford. If they couldn't afford a trade saddle, perhaps (Ewer's words, not mine) they could at least aquire strong, long wearing trade materials for rigging their own native saddles. Hmmmmm. That sounds like perhaps buckles and cinch rings and other metal objects as well as comerical tanned riggin. As Gomer Pyle would say, "Gol---ly". At anyrate, it took me a lot less time to find this information than it did to type it out, so I don't intend to do it very often. From this knowledge that I just aquired from the Smithsonian Bureau of American Ethonology I have arrived at a humble opinion that there were quite a few Spanish, Mexican and or California saddles in the mountains. Furthermore, I would expect that there were also numbers of American (flat, what we now call English) saddles there at the same time. So there wouldn't be a thing wrong with riding a flat saddle with iron stirrups, or as far as that goes, an Indian pad saddle with iron stirrups. What about tapaderos? Well, I reckon that if Spanish/Mexican saddles were made with any style of tapedero, I expect being connected to the saddle they made it to the mountains also. That is, unless the Smithsonian doesn't know what they are talking about, then all bets are off. One more thing. Do you ride your horse with a bit, or a rope to the jaw? What kind of a bit? I'd say bit and bridle styles could cause more discussion than something as simple as taps or hooded stirrups. Dale Nelson Roseburg, OR - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:33:55 -0700 From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: MtMan-List: AMM on-line auction Brothers, Take a look at the auction site. www.amm-auction.com Buck has done some nice updating, and added some items to the Fall Auction. The Summer auction closes in less than 48 hours. There is some nice plunder there at reasonable prices. Check it out, post your bids right on the site. After the auction closes, high bidders will be notified, and after a check is sent I'll send the item to the high bidder. Check it out.!.!.! Yfab, Randy Randal Bublitz rjbublitz@earthlink.net "Life is short, paddle hard..." - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:32:41 -0600 From: Ole Jensen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - --MS_Mac_OE_3146067162_63075_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Wynn, You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say. Ole Don't mis-quote me to say the Spanish saddles were not available. They obviously were. But both saddles articles in the B of B claim that flat saddles were much more common. Did we have one on our rack? I have talked to Lious and others who have told me that Bob Schmitt did not claim to have a great deal of research behind his saddles. That is not to pick on him but to say that it was not his forte. He build saddles, with the time I spend arguing on the intenet. The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is clearly an artists drawing of a saddle. The signiture looks more like the kind you see on modern drawings. I will have to do more research but if you are putting together a book about saddles and you can't find old drawing to illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some. The drawings show buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back cinches. I find it hard to believe these were period and in common practise. This is just my speculation. Perhaps they are historical drawings but I have my doubts. Even in these drawing I do not see half seats. Using the spot between your ass and the saddle for a storage unit for bedding is possible, Crazy but I think your stretching it. The more time they spent setting a horse the less padding they probably used. Bottom line -- You can't put taps, western stirrups or half seats in the mountains and there is a perfectly acceptable alternatives you can. Wynn - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ole Jensen To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Crazy, You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) from Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis Ole Wynn In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to trade for horses. Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They Saddled The West" There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to me to be Monkey Face tapaderos on it. Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me the pictures. I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not done some homework be for making there saddles. Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already? For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortable bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I do so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also. See on the trail Crazy Cyot - --MS_Mac_OE_3146067162_63075_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Wynn,
You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say.
Ole
Don't mis-quote me to say the= Spanish saddles were not available.  They obviously were.  But bo= th saddles articles in the B of B claim that flat saddles were much  mo= re common.  Did we have one on our rack?  I have talked to Lious a= nd others who have told me that Bob Schmitt did not claim to have a great de= al of research behind his saddles.  That is not to pick on him but to s= ay that it was not his forte.  He build saddles, with the time I spend = arguing on the intenet.
The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is= clearly an artists drawing of a saddle.  The signiture looks more like= the kind you see on modern drawings.  I will have to do more research = but if you are putting together a book about saddles and you can't find old = drawing to illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some.  The d= rawings show buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back cinche= s.  I find it hard to believe these were period and in common practise.=  This is just my speculation.  Perhaps they are historical drawin= gs but I have my doubts.  Even in these drawing I do not see half seats= .  
Using the spot between your ass and the s= addle for a storage unit for bedding is possible, Crazy but I think your str= etching it.  The more time they spent setting a horse the less padding = they probably used.  
Bottom line -- You can't put taps, wester= n stirrups or half seats in the mountains and there is a perfectly acceptabl= e alternatives you can.
Wynn   



----- Original Message -----
From: Ole Jensen <mailto:olebjensen@earthlink.net>  
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags

Crazy,
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style s= addles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) f= rom Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis
Ole
Wynn

In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to = trade for horses.
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican= saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all= that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground= seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They = Saddled The West"
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to= me to be Monkey Face  tapaderos on it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who= sent me the pictures.
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not d= one some homework be for making there saddles.
Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their sad= dles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?  
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortabl= e bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I d= o so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.
See on the trail
Crazy Cyot













- --MS_Mac_OE_3146067162_63075_MIME_Part-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:39:38 -0600 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... A lot of us in this sport also like good sporting dogs. I know Newfoundland retrievers were around pre-1840, as Lewis and Clark brought one with them (Seabisquit or Seaman?). One of my favorite stories from the journals is when the dog made a water retrieve of a wouded deer that went into the Missouri near Great Falls (MT). First thing the dog did is drown the deer, then bring it to shore. HHHMmmm. Maybe a bigger one would retrieve elk? What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?" My golden Retrievers don't fit, the breed wasn't invented until a number of dogs were cross bred (at least once with bloodhounds) to result in the breed being established in the late 1800s (1880 or so). Maybe we need a skill test for dogs...like retrieving wounded deer from rivers. By the way, Newfoundlands were bred to retrieve overboard fisherman off the Grand Banks. Sparks - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:26:32 -0700 From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... Sparks, I have a pair of Australian Cattle dogs. These dogs are also known as heelers (red and blue). I have 2, bro and sis, one is a blue the other a red. I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's first meeting with the flathead indians'. [do a googler search for 'Father desmet's.... and you'll see this pic] It show's an indian village with two dogs in foreground. I'll be dipped if these dogs don't look just like my two dogs. This is my documention for my dogs. Heelers were bred from Dingo stock in Australia. I think many wild dogs have similar features, etc... so my heelers look like the dogs Russel saw living with the indians. My dogs have done a couple hundred miles of canoe trips, love to camp with us, tend to stick close by, etc.... There is an australian cattle dog web site too....check them out. Randy > > What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?" > > Sparks > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:31:28 -0700 From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! Hawk, Well I know I am going to spray down my cloths and bedding with that permethrin something fierce before my next late summer outing. From what they say and what others testify to, the stuff works. Capt. L - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:03 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! > cpt L > seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for > deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed > ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i > washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered > with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year > here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick > grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what > we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed > cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny > buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers--- > > > "Hawk" > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1237 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.