From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1239 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, September 13 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1239 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Hey Ole! -       RE: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs -       MtMan-List: Broken hand -       Re: MtMan-List: Hey Ole! -       MtMan-List: To Clarify: ACD vs. Aussies -       RE: MtMan-List: To Clarify: ACD vs. Aussies -       Re: MtMan-List: Hey Ole! -       MtMan-List: FW: AMM-List: Summer Auction Closed -       MtMan-List: Gourd Horn Saddle Maker -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       MtMan-List: Site Update -       Re: MtMan-List: Site Update -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:52:41 -0600 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: MtMan-List: Hey Ole! Ole, Are you the Ole Jensen in the Utah Garrison ALRA, headquartered along the Wasatch Front? If so, stand up and wave so I kin see ya. I'm in N. Ogden. I'll likely be at the Oct. 4 ALRA meeting at Ft. Bueneventura, hope to see you there. Sparks - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:49:32 -0700 From: Rick Guglielmi Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs Although the Aussie's started to breed domestic dogs with the Dingo in the 1830's it wasn't until the 1870's that the forebears of the Austrailian Cattle Dog was developed. I'm not sure when the ACD was brought to America. They are tough, loyal, hardheaded (at least mine is), intelligent. I have had them for years and can't think of a better companion when I am out on the trail. Rick At 03:25 PM 09/11/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Geri...... I didn't say they did...I just said they look like any wild >dog... as they were bred from dingos. The ACD wasn't bred until the later >1800's in australia. They are great dogs. Randy > > > > [Original Message] > > From: busterize > > To: > > Date: 9/11/03 3:19:18 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs > > > > I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough. Wouldn't have any >other > > breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed >here > > so early in this country's history. > > > > Geri > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:39:42 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Broken hand This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C37909.698FE390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a friend here in Mountain Home, Arkansas named Tom = Fitzpatrick. He is a descendant of Tom "Broken Hand" Fitzpatrick. Tom (the living one) has been petitioning the Cowboy Hall of Fame in = Oklahoma City for years to get his ancestor recognized and admitted. = Finally, they accepted Broken Hand and the induction will be in the near = future. They accept only three people per year to so honor. And, yes, = they do recognize more than just cowboys. According to Tom, his ancestor was the only one of the mountain men = trappers to attend both the first and last of the great rendezvous and = all in between. I cannot verify that but he has studied the subject and = that is what he told me. Time to go back to the books and learn more about this interesting = mountain man. Frank - ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C37909.698FE390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I have a friend here in Mountain Home, Arkansas = named=20 Tom Fitzpatrick. He is a descendant of Tom "Broken Hand" = Fitzpatrick.
    Tom (the living one) has been petitioning the = Cowboy=20 Hall of Fame in Oklahoma City for years to get his ancestor recognized = and=20 admitted. Finally, they accepted Broken Hand and the induction will be = in the=20 near future. They accept only three people per year to so honor. And, = yes, they=20 do recognize more than just cowboys.
    According to Tom, his ancestor was the only one = of the=20 mountain men trappers to attend both the first and last of the great = rendezvous=20 and all in between. I cannot verify that but he has studied the subject = and that=20 is what he told me.
    Time to go back to the books and learn more = about this=20 interesting mountain man.
Frank
- ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C37909.698FE390-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:57:04 -0600 From: Ole Jensen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hey Ole! on 9/11/03 8:52 PM, James and Sue Stone at jandsstone@earthlink.net wrote: > Ole, > Are you the Ole Jensen in the Utah Garrison ALRA, headquartered along > the Wasatch Front? If so, stand up and wave so I kin see ya. I'm in N. > Ogden. I'll likely be at the Oct. 4 ALRA meeting at Ft. Bueneventura, > hope to see you there. > Sparks > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html James, Yes that me, I plan on being at Fort B on the 4th. Ole - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:46:04 -0700 From: "busterize" Subject: MtMan-List: To Clarify: ACD vs. Aussies Yeah, Randy is correct in saying the Australian Cattle Dog and Australian Shepherd are different breeds, but both herd. The ACD, as a breed was actually bred in Australia. The Shepherd's ancestors never saw Australia, as I believe they are an American-created breed. I've owned both breeds and they both have great qualities. But after having the longer-haired shepherds, I'll take the ACD with their short, close, more easily cared-for coat. Geri - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:54:29 -0700 From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: To Clarify: ACD vs. Aussies Geri, Thanks for the clarification. Having ACD's I've checked them out. I assumed the Aussie shepard was australian....see what happens when we assume...oh well.... Thanks for setting me straight. Randy > [Original Message] > From: busterize > To: > Date: 9/12/03 10:46:11 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: To Clarify: ACD vs. Aussies > > Yeah, Randy is correct in saying the Australian Cattle Dog and Australian > Shepherd are different breeds, but both herd. The ACD, as a breed was > actually bred in Australia. The Shepherd's ancestors never saw Australia, as > I believe they are an American-created breed. I've owned both breeds and > they both have great qualities. But after having the longer-haired > shepherds, I'll take the ACD with their short, close, more easily cared-for > coat. > > Geri > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:17:45 -0600 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hey Ole! - --------------000808000306050800090805 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit see you there Ole Jensen wrote: >on 9/11/03 8:52 PM, James and Sue Stone at jandsstone@earthlink.net wrote: > > > >>Ole, >>Are you the Ole Jensen in the Utah Garrison ALRA, headquartered along >>the Wasatch Front? If so, stand up and wave so I kin see ya. I'm in N. >>Ogden. I'll likely be at the Oct. 4 ALRA meeting at Ft. Bueneventura, >>hope to see you there. >>Sparks >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >James, >Yes that me, I plan on being at Fort B on the 4th. >Ole > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > - --------------000808000306050800090805 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit see you there

Ole Jensen wrote:
on 9/11/03 8:52 PM, James and Sue Stone at jandsstone@earthlink.net wrote:

  
Ole,
Are you the Ole Jensen in the Utah Garrison ALRA, headquartered along
the Wasatch Front?  If so, stand up and wave so I kin see ya.  I'm in N.
Ogden.  I'll likely be at the Oct. 4 ALRA meeting at Ft. Bueneventura,
hope to see you there.
Sparks


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
    
James,
Yes that me, I plan on being at Fort B on the 4th.
Ole


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

- --------------000808000306050800090805-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:47:53 -0700 From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: MtMan-List: FW: AMM-List: Summer Auction Closed Randal Bublitz rjbublitz@earthlink.net "Life is short, paddle hard..." > [Original Message] > From: Randal Bublitz > To: ammlist > Date: 9/12/03 4:00:21 PM > Subject: AMM-List: Summer Auction Closed > > Brothers, As of noon today the summer auction is over. The total bids > equal $1,203.15. I'll be e-mailing the high bidders to advise them that it > is time to send monies in. Thank all of you who participated, both > contributors of items and bidders on these items. We didn't get the > response we had hoped for, but we did the best we could. The Fall Auction > will be open for bidding soon. There will be great bargains available at > amm-auction.com . The Fall Auction will close Nov. 30, this will allow > me to get items in the mail in time for Christmas. For those who bid, keep > an eye out for my e-mail advising you of your totals owed. > Thanks again, > > Randy 'hardtack' Bublitz ---- Loan > Fund Clerk > > > Randal Bublitz > rjbublitz@earthlink.net > "Life is short, paddle hard..." > > > > -------------------- > Aux Aliments de Pays! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:13:32 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Gourd Horn Saddle Maker This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C37961.F4C8E120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have not seen anyone with any help for you and I haven't got the info = you are after. Perhaps you got it off line. I would like to hear how = it goes. Can you keep us updated? Wynn Ormond - ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C37961.F4C8E120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have not seen anyone with any help = for you and I=20 haven't got the info you are after.  Perhaps you got it off = line.  I=20 would like to hear how it goes.  Can you keep us = updated?
 
Wynn Ormond
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C37961.F4C8E120-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:26:28 -0700 From: "rroger 47" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Crazy, Please forgive the ramblings of an uneasy mind and a poorer memory. I recall reading that L&C saw an iron bit and iron stirrups...but I disremember them seeing a whole saddle. But, I haven't got my Journals at hand so I'll take your word for it. And, as an aside, since you're up in that country I thought you might be interested in an obscure reference I dimly recall from an Oh Idaho magazine out of the early 1970's. in 1810, the HBC held a big council at the sinks of the Little Lost. The chief of the Shoshones was a giant kind of a guy and they said it took two blankets to make a coat for him...I seem to remember his name as starting with a P, Peshto?, Peemo?, anyhow, a Snake name. The HBC was glad to see the Snakes there as they wanted to form some kind of alliance and trade. The Snakes had just returned from a two year visit with their cousins the Comanches down in Santa Fe country. I guess when you take the whole kit and kaboodle it might take two years coming and going. So, the upshot of all this rambling is, they certainly could have traded for a saddle in their travels. Of course, all Indians was great hoss theives and there's plenty of chance they could have got it that a way. Lewis or Clark must have thought the spanish goods worthy of mention anyhow. Now, before I get flamed on this forum I gotta apologize again for not having chapter and verse documentation for the above. Just the ramblings of a fevered mind. Taos Pard _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 05:06:13 -0700 From: Rick Guglielmi Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags I don't think you are off base on putting out your recollections/thoughts. Sometimes there is just not enough time to go and look up everything that comes over the list. Usually by the time I search around for information it can be several weeks and by then the question may be long past. So I just don't say anything. I have been rethinking that and will try and put out my thouhts and info from memoy. Although I think you have to make it clear that what you are saying is either something you have a feeling about or as you stated it was something you read in the past but could not recall the exact verbage. At least this gives everyone some ideas on additional places to look for quality research documetation. This doesn't mean I am not looking for information/documatation-that is something I find myself doing contiually, just that life sometimes gets in the way and I run out of hours in the day. Rick At 08:26 PM 09/12/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Crazy, > >Please forgive the ramblings of an uneasy mind and a poorer memory. I >recall reading that L&C saw an iron bit and iron stirrups...but I >disremember them seeing a whole saddle. But, I haven't got my Journals at >hand so I'll take your word for it. > >And, as an aside, since you're up in that country I thought you might be >interested in an obscure reference I dimly recall from an Oh Idaho >magazine out of the early 1970's. in 1810, the HBC held a big council at >the sinks of the Little Lost. The chief of the Shoshones was a giant kind >of a guy and they said it took two blankets to make a coat for him...I >seem to remember his name as starting with a P, Peshto?, Peemo?, anyhow, a >Snake name. The HBC was glad to see the Snakes there as they wanted to >form some kind of alliance and trade. The Snakes had just returned from a >two year visit with their cousins the Comanches down in Santa Fe >country. I guess when you take the whole kit and kaboodle it might take >two years coming and going. So, the upshot of all this rambling is, they >certainly could have traded for a saddle in their travels. Of course, all >Indians was great hoss theives and there's plenty of chance they could >have got it that a way. >Lewis or Clark must have thought the spanish goods worthy of mention anyhow. > >Now, before I get flamed on this forum I gotta apologize again for not >having chapter and verse documentation for the above. Just the ramblings >of a fevered mind. >Taos Pard > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. >http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 10:01:38 -0400 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: MtMan-List: Site Update This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C379DE.05B2A440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excuse the interruption.... I was in a Hieland frame of mind this week... The new stickers are for = you Jacobites that know the Bonny Prince will return.... http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 Slainte' D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." - ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C379DE.05B2A440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Excuse the = interruption....
I was in a Hieland frame of mind this = week... The=20 new stickers are for you Jacobites that know the Bonny Prince will=20 return....
 
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 
Slainte'
D
 
   "Abair ach beagan is abair = gu math=20 e"
            = DOUBLE=20 EDGE FORGE
       Knives and Iron=20 Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 
   "Knowing how is just the=20 beginning."
- ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C379DE.05B2A440-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 09:29:44 -0500 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Site Update This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C379D9.910F29A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And mighty fine stickers they are, Mr Mi les. LR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Double Edge Forge=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com ; FandIWAR@yahoogroups.com ; = ammlist@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:01 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Site Update Excuse the interruption.... I was in a Hieland frame of mind this week... The new stickers are for = you Jacobites that know the Bonny Prince will return.... http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 Slainte' D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C379D9.910F29A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And mighty fine stickers = they are, Mr=20 Mi les.
LR
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Double Edge=20 Forge
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= ;=20 FandIWAR@yahoogroups.com = ; ammlist@lists.xmission.com=
Sent: Saturday, September 13, = 2003 9:01=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Site = Update

Excuse the = interruption....
I was in a Hieland frame of mind this = week... The=20 new stickers are for you Jacobites that know the Bonny Prince = will=20 return....
 
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 
Slainte'
D
 
   "Abair ach beagan is = abair gu math=20 = e"
            = DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
       Knives and = Iron=20 Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 
   "Knowing how is just the = beginning."
- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C379D9.910F29A0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:21:36 -0700 From: "Dale Nelson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Guglielmi" To: Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 5:06 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags > > doesn't mean I am not looking for information/documatation-that is > something I find myself doing contiually, just that life sometimes gets in > the way and I run out of hours in the day. > It takes me more darn time to type the thing out than anything else. I hate long ones, and I have a couple I want to do on dogs and saddles. Maybe later today. Dale Nelson - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 12:03:18 -0700 From: "Dale Nelson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wynn Ormond" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 9:43 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags > Dale > I will try to over look your Gomer Pyle sarcasm because you have some good > points I was not aware of. Hope you can over look it on account of I was trying to be funny. Please accept my apology. > The question is how accurate are the drawings. I could be proven wrong but > it is my understanding that the buckle type cinch rings are relatively > modern inventions. I sure wish I could include the picture at this point, on account of you and me are talking about a drawing that none of the others can see, and I'm not much good at word pictures, but I'll try. The ring that I suppose you are talking about in the saddle picture is not the cinch ring. That ring would be on the cinch, and on my roping saddle it has a buckle tongue on it. The ring on the pictured saddle would be what we modern folks call a "D" ring, which is hooked to the rigging of the saddle. You are looking at the near side and there is no drawing of the off side latigo or cinch, just the near side latigo folded over the D ring, which in this case isn't a D, but is a round ring. Having made my living both horse back and nailing shoes on them, I've got a little experience with the critters, and with black smithing. I'm not much of a black smith, but I can bend horse shoes, and I can weld a bar shoe, and braze toe caulks etc. So from personal experience, about the easiest thing to hand forge and weld is a round ring. So why wouldn't a saddle maker in Santa Fe have even a half assed blacksmith like myself make up round rings for the rigging of his saddles. I think you'll find on the Mexican saddle that execpt for possibly a few nails, that it was mostly made of wood and leather, both tanned and rawhide, and not much iron. The old timers tied the cinch knot. The saddle > Vernam drew has the buckle type cinch rings. I'm sorry, but your bucket has a hole in it at this point. Horses and people go back before David killed Goliath with a rock, and they had buckles back then. The Roman's buckled on their swords, the knights in armor did the same, the pilgrims had buckle shoes. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of saddles have been rigged over thousands of years, and to think that one or another style is something new just isn't true. I would expect that their were round rings, square rings and D rings and riggings that I can't even imagine, so trying to date or disprove a date of an object by whether it used a round ring or even if there is a buckle in the harness someplace just doesn't hold water. You might be surprised to know that by 1836 buckles and other objects were being wash plated with nickle. Which I would expect was an on going attempt to get wrought iron to stand up better to horse sweat. Randy Steffen in his "The Horse Soldier" series shows a private in the light dragoons ca: 1778 with buckled on spurs, and buckles all over his saddle, including buckle cinch's, which the flat saddle folks call a girth. But still there are buckles. All this being said, I still agree with you, I'm sure the latigo's on the St. Louis/ Santa Fe saddles were done with a knot. Just don't try and date it using buckles and rings because you are on very thin ice. Besides what I've said, Ewers in "The Horse in Blackfoot Indian Culture" says that you can't date an Indian saddle by it having iron used in the construction. He says that some of the earliest saddles have iron, and the later ones don't, and to be very careful. Now that we agree on the knots, lets wonder why that saddle is full rigged. Have you ever rode a centerfire, or even a three quarter rig with a latigo knot under your leg? It tends to make you think their might be a better way. Also the saddle is full rigged > which without a back cinch can be pretty scary to ride down hills. I'm going to disagree with you again. Long long ago, and far far away, I made my living packing mules in the southern Sierra Nevada. I was riding a roping saddle at the time, full rigged, but I left the back cinch very loose. I never had any trouble with the saddle being a problem on a steep down hill, and it wasn't coming up against the back cinch either on account of I leaned back coming down hill. We also wrangled dudes at that pack station. A lot of the dude saddles were full rigged -- with the back cinch removed, by us, on purpose because it's not needed. So even dudes on a pack trip going down very steep hills didn't have a problem with their saddles without a back cinch. The biggest problem we had with full rigged saddles in the mountains is the cinch ring that far forward tends to rub sores on the elbow, or kind of behind the elbow of the horse. So in those cases, we would use the latigo and go through both the back ring and the front one, making it more like a three quarter rig, and pull the cinch out of the sore. I think you will find that the back cinch is actually there for the guy that's going to rope a mustang, or a big old cow, and you don't want her pulling that saddle straight up and down. If I was team roping I never tightened the back cinch, but doctoring on the range I'd be catching something big, and the horse would be holding the rope tight, then I'd snug it up. Enough of personal experience. Is the full rig factual for the time and place. Lets look at Miller. I wish I could send you a picture, but my scanner is down right now, so you'll have to take my word for it. Miller's picture of the two pack mules reproduced in "Across the Wide Missouri" shows a saddled mule. This drawing has tons of information in it. The pad looks to be a stripped wool blanket. The saddle is a saw buck type. It's cinch if all the way forward, just like the 1800 Santa Fe saddle. There is NO back cinch, no britchin' and no crupper. There is a breast collar, and the mule is being led by a rope tied around it's lower jaw, and very interesting to me, the tails are shaved. I've been told that was done so if you are catching up stock in the dark you can tell if you got a horse or a mule. Fact or fiction ??? Makes sense though. It also looks like the lash rope is around the mules neck for storage. You can't tell much from the loaded mule, except that it doesn't have a britchin' or crupper either, and it looks to me like the breast collar on the one might just have a buckle??? He doesn't draw his pictures with enough detail to really tell. So here we have a full forward rigged saddle, and it's on a mule, no back cinch, no britchin' or crupper. So why wouldn't a Santa Fe saddle be rigged the same way? If you still think the full forward rig isn't authentic, what one do you think is? The > point being that he may have drawn a generalized picture not a carefully > researched and detailed drawing. I've seen saddles that look just like it, and I reckon he drew one of those that he was able to date. This picture was going to be used to > justify using monkey faced taps. I am simply pointing out that it just does > not appear to be that great of a source. Well, maybe not, but it's certainly a place to start, and I would bet most of my poke that there were at least some monkey faced taps used because we have established that Santa Fe saddles were used, and/or knock off's of these saddles were made in St. Louis. Were they used by lots of people. That's hard to say, but just because there are no paintings of them doesn't mean they weren't there, and it means we have to turn to other sources to find out. If you use Miller paintings to lay the law down about what was used and what wasn't, or what took place in the mountains prior to 1840, then there were never any white women wearing calico dresses at the rendezvous. Miller never drew them, but from another source I found out they were there every year from 1836 to 1840. See what I mean? > Once and for all we all know that Spanish style saddles were in the > mountains. Cool, now that we know that, we can talk about bridles. I did not know they were a trade item with the Indians. They > were rather expensive but I suppose some Indians could probably afford to > buy them as well as raid their way into them. What's expensive? How do we know they were expensive? Blue beads cost Indians more than a musket. Indians seem to have had both. This is all relitive, and if you want something bad enough, cost is just a factor to be overcome. Remember that the entire fur trade wasn't in the Upper Missouri region. Lots of mountain men wintered in Taos and Santa Fe. Is the term "California > style" yours or theirs and what differentiates it from another style? California style is their term. In those days California was the same as an island. Ocean on one side and virtually impassable desterts and mountains every place else. California developed an aristocratic society in which the peons (read that Indian slaves) did all the work, and the landed gentery didn't lift a finger to do anything but basically ride. So they developed horsemanship to a high art. The men rode nothing but stallions, and they trained the finest curb bitted reining horses in the world. As good a horseman as the Tex/Mex - New Mexico vaqueros were, it is arguable that the Califorionos were better, in that it's all they did. The California saddle differed probably more in fancy stuff rather than basics. > Did you notice the process that Indians had to go through to build a ring > out of rawhide before they got metal rings? Quite a process. That's probably why iron rings were a good trade item. >> Furthermore, I would expect that there were also numbers of American > > (flat, what we now call English) saddles there at the same time. The above is a quote of mine. I found a couple of interesting Miller paintings. One shows Sir William Drummond Stewart sitting horse back and it looks like he's resting his hand on a saddle horn. But in two other pictures he looks to be riding a flat (military) saddle, and has what looks to me like a brace of pistols in pommel holsters. This has gone on about as long as I can stand, so I'll close now and get into bridles later. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with using a snaffel. One question. You said someplace that "cowboy stirrups" are wrong. What does a cowboy stirrup look like. I'm serious, we need to be on the same page to talk about this stuff. Dale Nelson Roseburg, OR - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:36:41 -0700 From: "Dale Nelson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C37A15.35EE2FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is just some information that when I read it years ago it stuck, = mostly because it really blew my mind at the time. I was reading the = "Journal of a Mountain Man: James Clyman" edited by Linda Hasselstrom. = Jim is the guy that sewed Jeb Smith's ear back on after the grizzly = attack. He later left the mountains, and didn't return for 15 years, = which brings us up to 1844. A little late, but still very interesting. = James left the east in the spring of 1844, and traveled to Oregon, then = to California, then raised a party in 1846 to return to the states. = They started in April of that year and crossed the Sierra via the head = of the Yuba river, being forced by snow to the north until they could = force a crossing in soft snow up to 8 feet deep. They desended Donnor = pass through the snow and over the cliffs without loosing any livestock, = but all this time both man and beast suffered from the cold and weather. = Passing what is now Donnor Lake, they followed the Truckee river past = where Reno now is, and followed it until it turned north. From there = they cut across heading for the Humbolt (Clyman call it the Mary's) = river, and when they were crossing the sink of the Humbolt, or somewhere = close to there they came to some hot springs. I'll now quote from = Clyman's journal for May 9, 1846. " ----------- near sun set we stoped = at some holes of Brackish water haveing traveled 30 miles today at = about 15 miles or half way from Waushee [Truckee] river to the first = water near Mays. Lake still exist a cauldron of Boiling water no stream = issues from it [at] present but it stands in several pools Boiling and = again disappearing some of these pools have beautifull clear water = Boiling in them and other emit Quantites of mud into one of these = muddy pools my little water spaniel Lucky went poor fellow not = knowing that it was Boiling hot he deliberately walked in to the caldron = to slake his thirst and cool his limbs when to his sad disapointment and = my sorrow he scalded himself allmost insantly to death I felt more = for his loss than any other animal I ever lost in my life as he had been = my constant companion in all my wandering since I left Milwawkee and I = vainly hoped to see him return to his old master in his native village = - --------" That's it, a water spaniel that was with him for years, = and that is the only mention. That's why I remembered it, all the = struggles in the snow and everything else, and not once does he mention = how the dog got through, or if he had to carry him or what ever. Is a = water spaniel and a cocker spaniel the same thing? It's hard to picture = a grizzled mountain man with a cocker spaniel -- like I said, it blew my = mind. Dale Nelson Roseburg, OR - ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C37A15.35EE2FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is just some information that when = I read it=20 years ago it stuck, mostly because it really blew my mind at the = time.  I=20 was reading the "Journal of a Mountain Man: James Clyman" edited by = Linda=20 Hasselstrom.  Jim is the guy that sewed Jeb Smith's ear back on = after the=20 grizzly attack.  He later left the mountains, and didn't return for = 15=20 years, which brings us up to 1844.  A little late, but still very=20 interesting.  James left the east in the spring of 1844, and = traveled to=20 Oregon, then to California, then raised a party in 1846 to return to the = states.  They started in April of that year and crossed the Sierra = via the=20 head of the Yuba river, being forced by snow to the north until they = could force=20 a crossing in soft snow up to 8 feet deep.  They desended Donnor = pass=20 through the snow and over the cliffs without loosing any livestock, but = all this=20 time both man and beast suffered from the cold and weather.  = Passing what=20 is now Donnor Lake, they followed the Truckee river past where Reno now = is, and=20 followed it until it turned north.  From there they cut across = heading for=20 the Humbolt (Clyman call it the Mary's) river, and when they were = crossing the=20 sink of the Humbolt, or somewhere close to there they came to some hot=20 springs.  I'll now quote from Clyman's journal for May 9, = 1846.  =20 " ----------- near sun set we stoped = at some=20 holes of Brackish water haveing traveled 30 miles = today    at=20 about 15 miles or half way from Waushee [Truckee] river to the first = water near=20 Mays. Lake still exist a cauldron of Boiling water  no stream = issues from=20 it [at] present but it stands in several pools Boiling and again=20 disappearing    some of these pools have beautifull clear = water=20 Boiling in them and other emit Quantites of mud   into one of = these=20 muddy pools my little water spaniel Lucky went     = poor=20 fellow not knowing that it was Boiling hot he deliberately walked in to = the=20 caldron to slake his thirst and cool his limbs when to his sad = disapointment and=20 my sorrow he scalded himself allmost insantly to = death     I=20 felt more for his loss than any other animal I ever lost in my life as = he had=20 been my constant companion in all my wandering since I left Milwawkee = and I=20 vainly hoped to see him return to his old master in his native village=20 - --------"       That's it, a water spaniel = that=20 was with him for years, and that is the only mention.  That's why I = remembered it, all the struggles in the snow and everything else, and = not once=20 does he mention how the dog got through, or if he had to carry him or = what=20 ever.  Is a water spaniel and a cocker spaniel the same = thing?  It's=20 hard to picture a grizzled mountain man with a cocker spaniel -- like I = said, it=20 blew my mind.
Dale Nelson
Roseburg, = OR 
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