From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1251 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, October 13 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1251 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History -       Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History -       MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:36:49 -0500 -       MtMan-List: Fish Hooks -       Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks -       MtMan-List: Crow Moccasins -       MtMan-List: Primitive Cable TV -       Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:43:27 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History You'll see more of beaverboy than he wants to be seen! You might also see Vince in this show too! Sincerely, Long live Rock & Roll! Beaverboy > List, > If you watch closely to one of the commercials you can catch a glimpse > of, red shirted, Beaverboy carrying a beaver! > > Vince > -- > > --------- Original Message --------- > > DATE: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:56:49 > From: beaverboy@sofast.net > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Cc: > >>Dear List, >> I’ve been hearing the advertising for the History Channel’s new >>fall show “Extreme History” on the radio. It stars rock legend >>Roger Daltrey. A preview of the show is on Sunday night I >>believe. >> You might want to watch it as it should be good. Many volunteer >>members of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard here in Great Falls, >>Montana myself included worked with Roger on the episode about >>L&C. >> I found Roger to be a very charming, intelligent, funny and just >>an all around great guy. He is also tough as nails and very down >>to earth. He hunts on his farm in England where he also raises >>trout. He helped skin a beaver and is a natural with a knife. >> He fired my fusee and is a good shot as well. >> I don’t even get the History Channel so will have to watch it >> on >>tape sometime, maybe. And I don’t mind waiting, I hate seeing >>myself on TV or even in photo’s anyway. >> I hope you all enjoy the show. >> BB >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! > http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:43:27 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History You'll see more of beaverboy than he wants to be seen! You might also see Vince in this show too! Sincerely, Long live Rock & Roll! Beaverboy > List, > If you watch closely to one of the commercials you can catch a glimpse > of, red shirted, Beaverboy carrying a beaver! > > Vince > -- > > --------- Original Message --------- > > DATE: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:56:49 > From: beaverboy@sofast.net > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Cc: > >>Dear List, >> I’ve been hearing the advertising for the History Channel’s new >>fall show “Extreme History” on the radio. It stars rock legend >>Roger Daltrey. A preview of the show is on Sunday night I >>believe. >> You might want to watch it as it should be good. Many volunteer >>members of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard here in Great Falls, >>Montana myself included worked with Roger on the episode about >>L&C. >> I found Roger to be a very charming, intelligent, funny and just >>an all around great guy. He is also tough as nails and very down >>to earth. He hunts on his farm in England where he also raises >>trout. He helped skin a beaver and is a natural with a knife. >> He fired my fusee and is a good shot as well. >> I don’t even get the History Channel so will have to watch it >> on >>tape sometime, maybe. And I don’t mind waiting, I hate seeing >>myself on TV or even in photo’s anyway. >> I hope you all enjoy the show. >> BB >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! > http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 21:44:14 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:36:49 -0500 test Lanney Ratcliff lanneyratcliff@charter.net ______________________________________________________________ Aux Aliments du Pays - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:54:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Samuel Keller Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky Mountains? I know that they were being manufactured in England from 1667. "The first period of great improvement came about the mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col. Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new tackle and methods of fishing. About this time some unknown angler attached a wire loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed a running line, useful for both casting and playing a hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this led to the invention of the reel. Experiments with material for the line led to the use of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in 1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff, for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted by Barker in 1667. Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers, were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666, and they ultimately established factories in Redditch around 1730." http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm Sam __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:18:01 -0500 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks Sam I have heard several men who are very well versed in primitive fishing equipment state flatly that eyed fishhooks are not documented to have been used in the Rocky Mountains during the rendezvous period. Maybe there are others with different information. Lanney - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samuel Keller" To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks > Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky > Mountains? > > I know that they were being manufactured in England > from 1667. > > "The first period of great improvement came about the > mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton > were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col. > Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new > tackle and methods of fishing. > > About this time some unknown angler attached a wire > loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed > a running line, useful for both casting and playing a > hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing > line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a > means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this > led to the invention of the reel. > > Experiments with material for the line led to the use > of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys > in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in > 1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff, > for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted > by Barker in 1667. > > Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in > the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the > Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset > point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and > his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers, > were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge > by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666, > and they ultimately established factories in Redditch > around 1730." > > http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm > > Sam > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:16:01 EDT From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Crow Moccasins Hello the Camp I have a friend that is interested in purchasing moccasins made in a style and decoration of the 1820-1830 Crow. Any suggestions? Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:37:00 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: MtMan-List: Primitive Cable TV Cable TV has many advantages over regular TV, mainly less garbage to watch. Just this last Wednesday, there was a show on the Discovery Channel about the Donner Party. Mark Baker was in it and I think he did a fine job of it too! I got to meet Mark at the Western National Rendezvous at Polebridge Montana, a few years ago, and he seemed to be a genuinely nice guy. He was very polite and allowed me to have a photo taken of us in his camp. I've enjoyed his articles in the Muzzleloader even more since meeting him. Then tonight,again on the Discovery Channel, on the show Mythbusters they tried to reenact the old barrel full of bricks being hauled up a pulley routine. Anyway, they tried 3 times at dropping a large (50 gal) oak barrel from 30' filled with 500 pounds of bricks. It did not break after 3 drops until they weakened it by removing some of the steel bands! Just goes to show you, they don't build anything much better than they used 200 years ago! bb - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:35:04 -0500 From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks Hello Sam, Good to hear from you and to see your question. First, what is your specific documentation that eyed fish hooks "were being manufactured in England from 1667?" I reviewed the web-site you set out below and did not see that representation, but perhaps I either missed it or you have another reference. Second, while eyed hooks were certainly known to fisherman for many hundreds of years before 1667, they were not commonly manufactured or available, due, in the main, to the poor quality of the metallurgy of the time. In fact, except for a frontpiece drawing reference on one early English tome (which may be the reference to which you are referring), which appears to have one of the drawings of a fly tied on what seems to be an eyed hook, and a later French reference to at least one example of the manufacture of eyed hooks in the 1700's---and also some eyed hooks, probably French, found at early sites in Canada), I have found no reference to the use of eyed hooks (by "modern fishermen) until the mid-1800's when the first patent applications for such were filed. It appears that it was after 1850 that they were commercially available in any quantity, and really it was not until after the Civil war that you see them advertised. Even then, the eyeless (blind-eye or flats) were still far and away the most popular styles, as they were well known, easy to use and did not suffer the many defects found, even by that date, in the finishing process of hook manufacture. As to their use in the Rockies, I have yet to find any reference to the use of an eyed hook, but certainly a pin or some bit of metal could have been modified to make an eyed hook. However, commercially, they do not appear on any trade ledger or publication. That being said, I would strongly argue that the use of eyed hooks to reenact fur trade fishing would be inaccurate. They were not being sold by any major producer during that era and there is no reference to their use in the Rockies as noted above. By the way, your reference to Kirby was of merit, as he really had the hook market to himself for many years because of the high quality of his hooks. But he did not advertise, ever, eyed hooks, and he was a master of stealing a march on his competition, so I would respectfully suggest that had eyed hooks been commonplace enough to the subject of mass production or widespread use, you would have seen it and heard it from him. Look forward to hearing from you. Regards, Paul - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samuel Keller" To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks > Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky > Mountains? > > I know that they were being manufactured in England > from 1667. > > "The first period of great improvement came about the > mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton > were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col. > Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new > tackle and methods of fishing. > > About this time some unknown angler attached a wire > loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed > a running line, useful for both casting and playing a > hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing > line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a > means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this > led to the invention of the reel. > > Experiments with material for the line led to the use > of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys > in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in > 1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff, > for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted > by Barker in 1667. > > Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in > the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the > Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset > point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and > his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers, > were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge > by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666, > and they ultimately established factories in Redditch > around 1730." > > http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm > > Sam > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1251 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.