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Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1268
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hist_text-digest     Saturday, November 15 2003     Volume 01 : Number 1268



In this issue:

-       Re: MtMan-List: Cleaning a water bottle
-       Re: MtMan-List: bedding
-       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning
-       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning
-       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning
-       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning
-       MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning with a Canon bone.
-       MtMan-List: commercially tanned elk hide shedding?
-       Re: MtMan-List: commercially tanned elk hide shedding?
-       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning with a Canon bone.
-       MtMan-List: Bedding
-       Re: MtMan-List: Bedding
-       MtMan-List: Banff Mountain Film Festival
-       Re: MtMan-List: bedding
-       Re: MtMan-List: Cleaning a water bottle
-       Re: MtMan-List: bedding

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:13:55 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cleaning a water bottle

Also try Efferdent or any fizzing denture tablets... does the same thing.

However, as has been said, I NEVER clean out my coffee pot. Rinse it
with cold water, maybe... but clean it?? <LOL>  Made that mistake ONCE
in the Navy. Cleaned up the whole Coffee Mess... scoured the big pot,
all of the cups, etc... until they shined!  BIG mistake...

Regards,

Ad Miller

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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:20:24 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bedding

If you have three pack mules you have all the extra padding/bedding you can 
use.  Each animal has at least one saddle blanket (epishemore) per 
animal.  A saddle blanket is basically a folded blanket, thick pads of 
felted hair are also common and useful.  An epishemore is a saddle blanket 
made from a buffalo robe.

Add the above to your sleeping blankets and a tarp which covers a pack 
during the day and you've got pretty comfy sleeping no matter the weather.

When I was on the trail I only had one pack animal plus my riding horse the 
padding from just two critters made a very comfortable bed along with my 
two blankets in very cold weather.  Didn't have a thermometer or radio 
along so I really can't say how cold.  Some nights a small fire warmed 
canvas, or a rock ledge, used as a leanto/reflector.  A large dog is a 
great comfort if you don't have a Jill.

My experience with hair-on hide has been less than wonderful.  I've never 
broken down and bought a brain tan buffalo robe so on that I can't fairly 
comment.  Lance Grabowski has cut up several for coats and vests and such 
so at least one of us was brave enough.  I would think Crazy is right about 
it being too warm 363 days a year unless you were a teamster or a drover on 
the windswept plains.

I can comment on commercial tan buffalo, bear, elk, sheep and deer.  I have 
had excellent results with both real and faux braintan deer, elk and moose 
leather.

MOST hair-on commercial tan hides have not properly neutralized the acids 
in the tanning process.  Hence when used on the ground (or stored on a 
closet shelf in Missouri) they will absorb water and rot.  The hollow hair 
of elk and deer never quits breaking, it never seems to thin out but the 
constant hair everywhere becomes old fast, it will even show up in your 
food.  Hides are also heavy and more difficult to pack than blankets.  All 
are a pleasure under you at night.  I've had less rotting with commercial 
sheep than with deer, buffalo, elk and bear.

I have two Hudson Bays I bought in the mid '70's they have served well many 
nights since.  They are still warm and a part of my bedroll with the 
luxurious hand-loomed blankets I now enjoy.  Perhaps mine are still warm 
and useful because they haven't been washed much.  I do hang them in the 
hot sun for a day and beat them with a carpet beater every year or so.  I 
have over a dozen blankets in my bedroll, I don't take all of them all of 
the time.

Do not let anyone tell you the European military cot blankets are inferior 
they are smaller than a 4 point that's all, so were the blankets traded 
during the period.  I have purchased and used several and find them to be 
of good quality, my winter leggings and some other gear is made from 
them.  For $10 to $20 each they are a great value.

If you want to wrap up in canvas consider that A 300 thread count Egyptian 
cotton sheet used in place of canvas breaks the wind as efficiently with 
much less weight.

When you lay out your bed if you are using a four point under you, fold it 
lengthwise in quarters to increase warmth.  A cot blanket is better folded 
in thirds: because it is smaller.  If you have two blankets to place under 
you fold the first only lengthwise then fold the second again in 
half.  This way (with 4 point blankets) you have 4 layers under your legs 
and feet and 12 layers under the trunk of your body.  Wrap up in your 
sleeping blankets and canvas and you'll stay plenty warm.  If you are 
wrapping canvas around you DO NOT use oil cloth or you will be wet, wet 
equals cold; particularly in humid areas.  Canvas can often be used better 
as a reflector than as a wrap.

It takes some bedding to stay comfortable in winter, survival can be done 
with a lot less.  We are (in most instances) no longer able to practice old 
ways of woodcraft (bough beds and such) as it would denude areas we must 
share with others.  Because we can't cut what we want every night it 
requires us to carry what we need.  A toboggan is one practical choice: 
without snow a wheelbarrow (like Buck Connor uses) is another.  Of course 
horses were the chosen method back then, but then this is now.  Dog sleds, 
sledges, travois, knapsacks, primitive style packframe/chairs and many 
other quasi period methods are available to a clever mind.  Just remember 
none are accurate portrayals they are expedients required because of time 
and circumstance.  A hand cart is as anachronistic as my Pickup; some seem 
to think it looks better in camp.

Ole has detailed what would be a practical and not uncommon bedroll of the 
period, yes it is a lot of weight but much of it would have been used first 
for other purposes.  Mountain Men weren't backpackers, most of the time.

Many years ago I was inspecting an old hotel in an out of the way location 
in Wyoming; down in storage there was a huge bundle of canvas, blankets, 
quilts, comforters, sheep skins and every other kind of thing you can 
imagine.  When I asked what it was the manager explained it was a sheep 
herders bedroll that they were holding against room rent, when cold weather 
came he would redeem it.

John...


At 05:23 PM 11/12/03, you wrote:
>No problem if you have three mules.
>Don
>
>>Ole,
>>
>>What do you estimate the total weight to be of 1 Hudson bay, 1 Whitney, 2
>>Barron 5 point blankets wrapped with canvas, together with the addition of 3
>>Hudson bay's and 1 Whitney as a ground pad wrapped with Russian sheeting?
>>Can you carry this or does it require some other means of transportation?
>>It will surely keep you warm and dry, but the bulk and weight seem somewhat
>>intimidating in my view, and I would assume that this set-up is not for a
>>walk-in situation, or am I mistaken?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>
>> > Don,
>> > For years I have used 1 hudson bay, 1 whitney, and 2 Barron 5 point
>> > blankets wraped with canvas.
>> > In the future I will use the same with the addition of 3 hudson bay's
>> > and 1 whitney as a ground pad wraped with russian sheating.
>> > Ole
>> > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 07:00 PM, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote:
>> >
>> > > Wool blankets have always done me very well.  The coldest I have slept
>> > > is 12 below and two Witneys.  I did all right, but now I am older and
>> > > plan on carrying three in the winter.  Old age you know.  Don
>> > >
>> > > On Monday, November 10, 2003 11:42 AM, roger lahti
>> > > <amm1719@charter.net> wrote:
>> > >> I got to agree with bb on bison robes being a pain if they get wet.
>> > >> But I
>> > >> suspect that, well I know my robe is warmer than an equivalent weight
>> > >> of
>> > >> wool blanket. To make the blankets warm at all you still need some
>> > >> sort of
>> > >> air barrier like a canvas bed roll to cut the air movement by the
>> > >> blanket.
>> > >> The robe comes with it's own barrier but it's not water repellent at
>> > >> all.
>> > >> Brain tan is very light though when done right with plenty of hide
>> > >> shaving
>> > >> to get it thin as possible.
>> > >>
>> > >> I still have good use for my wool blankets.
>> > >>
>> > >> Capt. Lahti
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> >
>
>If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
>john <kramer@kramerize.com>
>
>Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit of 
>the American Mountain Men
>http://amm-auction.com/


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:02:51 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning

 I saw a man from Canada flesh a beaver like that too. But he kind of
suspended the pelt from his knee to his hand. He was was fast at it too.
Scared me to watch him.
     bb



> I read what you all have said about skinning and fleshing beaver. While I
> am
> sure many of you can clean skin a beaver, I can't.  Sam Greasel was the
> best I
> ever saw. He could clean skin a beaver in just a little over 10 min.  He
> bragged it and I timed him. He did it without getting in a rush.  As for
> fleshing
> the best way I have found was shown to me by a man working for what used
> to be
> the Hudson Bay Co., Now called the North American Fur Exchange, it think.
> You simply lay the hide over your leg and flesh with a razor sharp knife,
> pushing the fat and meat away from you.  The extra feel you get with your
> leg keep
> you from going to deep.  Also notice I said push the fat and meat away
> from
> you, if you slice, you will cut the hide. Your knife must be razor sharp,
> usually
> requiring the use of the hone many times and about one knife per hide if
> you
> have a good knife, before resharpening. It help if the knife is thin
> thickness, and wide width and with a little flexion in the blade.
>
>                                             TrapRJoe
>


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:04:59 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning

No we haven't discussed this before. I'm sure I would have remembered the
"boiling water on the pelt trick"!
      bb



> Oh yes I agree this is one thing ya just gotta learn by doin.  I learned
> that water thing from Fuzzy Barton himself years ago, no I would never do
> that to a deer hide, but I always got a better price. I'd agree even more
> if
> the pelt was going for fur instead of to the hatter.  Its definately
> something NOT to try on any other animal. Didn't we discuss this before??
>
>
>>From: beaverboy@sofast.net
>>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning
>>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:44:54 -0700 (MST)
>>
>>  One trick I use is after I get it fleshed and
>> > streched, pour boiling hot water on the flesh side and scrub it as
>> hard
>>as
>> > you can with a rough (notwire) brush. that will make the hide come out
>> > very
>> > white and clean. I usually get a better price at auction that way.
>>
>>   Sean,
>>      That could only cook the hide which is why it turns white! I
>> thought
>>I heard and saw it all but never heard of this method!? I don't
>>recommend it. Freezing half wet hides I heard turn them white too.
>>Thats better than pouring boiling water on them anyway.
>>     Some things just cannot be properly discussed in type. It's just too
>>hard to explain how to put up pelts in print, it has to be seen first
>>hand to learn how to do. But I don't recommend pouring boiling water
>>on any hide. Sorry Sean. Remeber the old rule of thumb on braining
>>hides- "If it's too hot to stick your hand in, it's too hot for a
>>hide".
>>    bb
>>
>>
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>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:24:49 EST
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning

- -------------------------------1068848689
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

More than likely the same man, but the really tough spots, I found myself 
going to my leg and the feel helped. I found that I'm much fast at it this way 
other wise I'm very slow at fleshing and my hands hurt afterwards.  I have had 
many a night when I have cought a dozen or so. On those days I needed all the 
shortcuts I could find, without giving up quility.  This method improved both.

                                                        Traprjoe

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<DIV>More than likely the same man, but the really tough spots, I found myse=
lf going to my leg and the feel helped. I found that I'm much fast at it thi=
s way other wise I'm very slow at fleshing and my hands hurt afterwards.&nbs=
p; I have had many a night when I have cought a dozen or so. On those days I=
 needed all the shortcuts I could find, without giving up quility.&nbsp; Thi=
s method improved both.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
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bsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Traprjoe</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 22:33:55 EST
From: HikingOnThru@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning

In a message dated 11/12/03 11:49:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cheyenne@pcu.net writes:

<<   But it worked on the beaver.  The only question left that neither of us 
knew was how much do you need to take off.  >>
Well Wynne, 
Unless your blade is just very sharp and cuts through the hide (beaver are 
like deer, hides vary so be diligent), you are generally safe.  I have heard of 
fellows taking a belt sander to them on flesh side to thin down after tanning 
and before softening so it will not be so stiff!

- -C.Kent

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 22:40:19 EST
From: HikingOnThru@cs.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning with a Canon bone.

I have heard of a method used in Canada by natives of skinning a beaver that 
was hanging upside down that made use  of a deer canon bone cut at a pretty 
sharp angle.
Sorta used a chopping motion and the result was a clean skinned hide in 
relatively little time.  Anyone know about this?

- -C.Kent

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 22:22:22 -0700
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: commercially tanned elk hide shedding?

Gee,
I've had a commercially tanned hair-on elk skin hanging in the family 
room now for about five years and never noticed a shedding problem. 
 Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think my three golden 
retrievers have noticed either. I can't see where it causes any more 
problem then the hundred pounds of wool fleece we have in the attached 
garage.  And.I've never examined the hair I clean from the frying pan to 
see if it is retriever or elk...I just clean it out and cook.
(tongue firmly in cheek)
Sparks


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:44:14 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@CHARTER.NET>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: commercially tanned elk hide shedding?

Gee Sparks,

How's the hair going to break off with that old rug hanging on the wall?
Thought we were talking about using them as a sleeping robe or pad not a
wall hanging. <G>

PS. Don't bite your tongue.

Capt. Lahti'


- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James and Sue Stone" <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 9:22 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: commercially tanned elk hide shedding?


> Gee,
> I've had a commercially tanned hair-on elk skin hanging in the family
> room now for about five years and never noticed a shedding problem.
>  Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think my three golden
> retrievers have noticed either. I can't see where it causes any more
> problem then the hundred pounds of wool fleece we have in the attached
> garage.  And.I've never examined the hair I clean from the frying pan to
> see if it is retriever or elk...I just clean it out and cook.
> (tongue firmly in cheek)
> Sparks
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:09:39 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Skinning with a Canon bone.

I once saw an Canadian indian woman skinning a beaver (on TV) with an ulu.
The beaver was laying on the ground but she was using a pushing (almost a
pushing/chopping) motion, no doubt clean skinning it.
   The only time I've ever seen a beaver skinned while hanging was by my
good friend Larry D. (the greatest skinner I know!, I timed him skin a
rat in 30 seconds, and saw him skin 26 warm coyotes in under 2 1/2
hours by himself, this guy is a legend and owns Thunder Mountain Fur in
Great Falls, MT ) Anyway, he would cut all the feet off, then open the
end of the beaver, hang it from a meat hook slipped under the beaver
tail skin and he then pulled a lot of the hide off. He did of course
have to work the knife around the front legs and head but Larry knows
how to get any skinning job done FAST. Larry is a great furbuyer too
and buys all my fur.
   Ain't no easy way to skin a beaver. Just a sharp knife and time. The
more you do the faster you get. Their easy to do once you learn how and
a real pleasure compared to stinking, flea ridden fox and coyotes.
Beaver can sit on a cool floor for a day or two as well and not go bad.
I like um.
      bb




> I have heard of a method used in Canada by natives of skinning a beaver
> that
> was hanging upside down that made use  of a deer canon bone cut at a
> pretty
> sharp angle.
> Sorta used a chopping motion and the result was a clean skinned hide in
> relatively little time.  Anyone know about this?
>
> -C.Kent
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:37:42 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Bedding

Dear List,
   I have another question, How do you guys clean your bison robes? I
ended up hanging mine on the fence and using a pet shampoo and garden
hose to do the job by hand. Then let it hang in the sun to dry. Came
out smelling pretty.
   bb

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 06:49:11 +0000
From: "Sean Boushie" <flintlocknfur@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding

I'm not touching this one...............


>From: beaverboy@sofast.net
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@xmission.com
>Subject: MtMan-List: Bedding
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:37:42 -0700 (MST)
>
>Dear List,
>    I have another question, How do you guys clean your bison robes? I
>ended up hanging mine on the fence and using a pet shampoo and garden
>hose to do the job by hand. Then let it hang in the sun to dry. Came
>out smelling pretty.
>    bb
>
>----------------------
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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:55:25 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Banff Mountain Film Festival

Dear List,
   Went to the (traveling) Banff Mountain Film Festival tonight! A hunting
season tradition for me! If you ever get a chance to see this traveling
film show, go!!  Extreme skiing, kayaking, biking, unicycles, etc...
Incredible!!!! These young whipper snappers are filled with the same
spirit as the original Mountain Men and doing it in the mountains!
   This year wasn't as great as the usual but they had a great film about
a Tibetan nomad family. It is amazing how similar they were (are) to
North American indians but still living the life as well as they could.
One year they showed a film about a Inuit man living on the ice, a
great film!!!
   The only film I didn't care for this year was about the wolf
reintroduction in Idaho (a sore topic for Montanan's as well). It was a
clearly (tilted one side anyway) pro-wolf film and didn't get a great
applause when finished. Maybe it was too close to home. I almost booed
it. Their side has a hard time dealing with the realities of life and
death in the great outdoors. They even brought up the terrible "leghold
trap" the same trap that caught some of the wolves they reintroduced!
   Off the topic a little but hey!, it did have Mountain in the title and
trapping! Great evening!
       beaverboy


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Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 06:56:12 +0000
From: "don secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bedding

Good points and well taken. Where can a fellow get Egyptian cotton sheeting?
Don Secondine


>From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bedding
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:20:24 -0600
>
>
>If you have three pack mules you have all the extra padding/bedding you can 
>use.  Each animal has at least one saddle blanket (epishemore) per animal.  
>A saddle blanket is basically a folded blanket, thick pads of felted hair 
>are also common and useful.  An epishemore is a saddle blanket made from a 
>buffalo robe.
>
>Add the above to your sleeping blankets and a tarp which covers a pack 
>during the day and you've got pretty comfy sleeping no matter the weather.
>
>When I was on the trail I only had one pack animal plus my riding horse the 
>padding from just two critters made a very comfortable bed along with my 
>two blankets in very cold weather.  Didn't have a thermometer or radio 
>along so I really can't say how cold.  Some nights a small fire warmed 
>canvas, or a rock ledge, used as a leanto/reflector.  A large dog is a 
>great comfort if you don't have a Jill.
>
>My experience with hair-on hide has been less than wonderful.  I've never 
>broken down and bought a brain tan buffalo robe so on that I can't fairly 
>comment.  Lance Grabowski has cut up several for coats and vests and such 
>so at least one of us was brave enough.  I would think Crazy is right about 
>it being too warm 363 days a year unless you were a teamster or a drover on 
>the windswept plains.
>
>I can comment on commercial tan buffalo, bear, elk, sheep and deer.  I have 
>had excellent results with both real and faux braintan deer, elk and moose 
>leather.
>
>MOST hair-on commercial tan hides have not properly neutralized the acids 
>in the tanning process.  Hence when used on the ground (or stored on a 
>closet shelf in Missouri) they will absorb water and rot.  The hollow hair 
>of elk and deer never quits breaking, it never seems to thin out but the 
>constant hair everywhere becomes old fast, it will even show up in your 
>food.  Hides are also heavy and more difficult to pack than blankets.  All 
>are a pleasure under you at night.  I've had less rotting with commercial 
>sheep than with deer, buffalo, elk and bear.
>
>I have two Hudson Bays I bought in the mid '70's they have served well many 
>nights since.  They are still warm and a part of my bedroll with the 
>luxurious hand-loomed blankets I now enjoy.  Perhaps mine are still warm 
>and useful because they haven't been washed much.  I do hang them in the 
>hot sun for a day and beat them with a carpet beater every year or so.  I 
>have over a dozen blankets in my bedroll, I don't take all of them all of 
>the time.
>
>Do not let anyone tell you the European military cot blankets are inferior 
>they are smaller than a 4 point that's all, so were the blankets traded 
>during the period.  I have purchased and used several and find them to be 
>of good quality, my winter leggings and some other gear is made from them.  
>For $10 to $20 each they are a great value.
>
>If you want to wrap up in canvas consider that A 300 thread count Egyptian 
>cotton sheet used in place of canvas breaks the wind as efficiently with 
>much less weight.
>
>When you lay out your bed if you are using a four point under you, fold it 
>lengthwise in quarters to increase warmth.  A cot blanket is better folded 
>in thirds: because it is smaller.  If you have two blankets to place under 
>you fold the first only lengthwise then fold the second again in half.  
>This way (with 4 point blankets) you have 4 layers under your legs and feet 
>and 12 layers under the trunk of your body.  Wrap up in your sleeping 
>blankets and canvas and you'll stay plenty warm.  If you are wrapping 
>canvas around you DO NOT use oil cloth or you will be wet, wet equals cold; 
>particularly in humid areas.  Canvas can often be used better as a 
>reflector than as a wrap.
>
>It takes some bedding to stay comfortable in winter, survival can be done 
>with a lot less.  We are (in most instances) no longer able to practice old 
>ways of woodcraft (bough beds and such) as it would denude areas we must 
>share with others.  Because we can't cut what we want every night it 
>requires us to carry what we need.  A toboggan is one practical choice: 
>without snow a wheelbarrow (like Buck Connor uses) is another.  Of course 
>horses were the chosen method back then, but then this is now.  Dog sleds, 
>sledges, travois, knapsacks, primitive style packframe/chairs and many 
>other quasi period methods are available to a clever mind.  Just remember 
>none are accurate portrayals they are expedients required because of time 
>and circumstance.  A hand cart is as anachronistic as my Pickup; some seem 
>to think it looks better in camp.
>
>Ole has detailed what would be a practical and not uncommon bedroll of the 
>period, yes it is a lot of weight but much of it would have been used first 
>for other purposes.  Mountain Men weren't backpackers, most of the time.
>
>Many years ago I was inspecting an old hotel in an out of the way location 
>in Wyoming; down in storage there was a huge bundle of canvas, blankets, 
>quilts, comforters, sheep skins and every other kind of thing you can 
>imagine.  When I asked what it was the manager explained it was a sheep 
>herders bedroll that they were holding against room rent, when cold weather 
>came he would redeem it.
>
>John...
>
>
>At 05:23 PM 11/12/03, you wrote:
>>No problem if you have three mules.
>>Don
>>
>>>Ole,
>>>
>>>What do you estimate the total weight to be of 1 Hudson bay, 1 Whitney, 2
>>>Barron 5 point blankets wrapped with canvas, together with the addition 
>>>of 3
>>>Hudson bay's and 1 Whitney as a ground pad wrapped with Russian sheeting?
>>>Can you carry this or does it require some other means of transportation?
>>>It will surely keep you warm and dry, but the bulk and weight seem 
>>>somewhat
>>>intimidating in my view, and I would assume that this set-up is not for a
>>>walk-in situation, or am I mistaken?
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> > Don,
>>> > For years I have used 1 hudson bay, 1 whitney, and 2 Barron 5 point
>>> > blankets wraped with canvas.
>>> > In the future I will use the same with the addition of 3 hudson bay's
>>> > and 1 whitney as a ground pad wraped with russian sheating.
>>> > Ole
>>> > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 07:00 PM, Phyllis and Don Keas 
>>>wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Wool blankets have always done me very well.  The coldest I have 
>>>slept
>>> > > is 12 below and two Witneys.  I did all right, but now I am older 
>>>and
>>> > > plan on carrying three in the winter.  Old age you know.  Don
>>> > >
>>> > > On Monday, November 10, 2003 11:42 AM, roger lahti
>>> > > <amm1719@charter.net> wrote:
>>> > >> I got to agree with bb on bison robes being a pain if they get wet.
>>> > >> But I
>>> > >> suspect that, well I know my robe is warmer than an equivalent 
>>>weight
>>> > >> of
>>> > >> wool blanket. To make the blankets warm at all you still need some
>>> > >> sort of
>>> > >> air barrier like a canvas bed roll to cut the air movement by the
>>> > >> blanket.
>>> > >> The robe comes with it's own barrier but it's not water repellent 
>>>at
>>> > >> all.
>>> > >> Brain tan is very light though when done right with plenty of hide
>>> > >> shaving
>>> > >> to get it thin as possible.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I still have good use for my wool blankets.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Capt. Lahti
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> >
>>
>>If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
>>john <kramer@kramerize.com>
>>
>>Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit of 
>>the American Mountain Men
>>http://amm-auction.com/
>
>
>----------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 22:22:03 +1300
From: Dunc <duncanm@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cleaning a water bottle

>Ad Wrote
>However, as has been said, I NEVER clean out my coffee pot.

I forgot to rinse mine and left it with grounds in it in the basement for 7 
months, the thing I found inside had a life of its own and proved harder to 
remove than a Beaver skin .BG


Cheers Dunc 



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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 08:07:19 -0700
From: Ole Jensen <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bedding

John,
Is this the first time we have agreed on something?. Thanks for the 
input, and you are right a hand cart looks better than a pick up truck.
Ole
On Friday, November 14, 2003, at 11:20 AM, John Kramer wrote:

>
> If you have three pack mules you have all the extra padding/bedding 
> you can use.  Each animal has at least one saddle blanket (epishemore) 
> per animal.  A saddle blanket is basically a folded blanket, thick 
> pads of felted hair are also common and useful.  An epishemore is a 
> saddle blanket made from a buffalo robe.
>
> Add the above to your sleeping blankets and a tarp which covers a pack 
> during the day and you've got pretty comfy sleeping no matter the 
> weather.
>
> When I was on the trail I only had one pack animal plus my riding 
> horse the padding from just two critters made a very comfortable bed 
> along with my two blankets in very cold weather.  Didn't have a 
> thermometer or radio along so I really can't say how cold.  Some 
> nights a small fire warmed canvas, or a rock ledge, used as a 
> leanto/reflector.  A large dog is a great comfort if you don't have a 
> Jill.
>
> My experience with hair-on hide has been less than wonderful.  I've 
> never broken down and bought a brain tan buffalo robe so on that I 
> can't fairly comment.  Lance Grabowski has cut up several for coats 
> and vests and such so at least one of us was brave enough.  I would 
> think Crazy is right about it being too warm 363 days a year unless 
> you were a teamster or a drover on the windswept plains.
>
> I can comment on commercial tan buffalo, bear, elk, sheep and deer.  I 
> have had excellent results with both real and faux braintan deer, elk 
> and moose leather.
>
> MOST hair-on commercial tan hides have not properly neutralized the 
> acids in the tanning process.  Hence when used on the ground (or 
> stored on a closet shelf in Missouri) they will absorb water and rot.  
> The hollow hair of elk and deer never quits breaking, it never seems 
> to thin out but the constant hair everywhere becomes old fast, it will 
> even show up in your food.  Hides are also heavy and more difficult to 
> pack than blankets.  All are a pleasure under you at night.  I've had 
> less rotting with commercial sheep than with deer, buffalo, elk and 
> bear.
>
> I have two Hudson Bays I bought in the mid '70's they have served well 
> many nights since.  They are still warm and a part of my bedroll with 
> the luxurious hand-loomed blankets I now enjoy.  Perhaps mine are 
> still warm and useful because they haven't been washed much.  I do 
> hang them in the hot sun for a day and beat them with a carpet beater 
> every year or so.  I have over a dozen blankets in my bedroll, I don't 
> take all of them all of the time.
>
> Do not let anyone tell you the European military cot blankets are 
> inferior they are smaller than a 4 point that's all, so were the 
> blankets traded during the period.  I have purchased and used several 
> and find them to be of good quality, my winter leggings and some other 
> gear is made from them.  For $10 to $20 each they are a great value.
>
> If you want to wrap up in canvas consider that A 300 thread count 
> Egyptian cotton sheet used in place of canvas breaks the wind as 
> efficiently with much less weight.
>
> When you lay out your bed if you are using a four point under you, 
> fold it lengthwise in quarters to increase warmth.  A cot blanket is 
> better folded in thirds: because it is smaller.  If you have two 
> blankets to place under you fold the first only lengthwise then fold 
> the second again in half.  This way (with 4 point blankets) you have 4 
> layers under your legs and feet and 12 layers under the trunk of your 
> body.  Wrap up in your sleeping blankets and canvas and you'll stay 
> plenty warm.  If you are wrapping canvas around you DO NOT use oil 
> cloth or you will be wet, wet equals cold; particularly in humid 
> areas.  Canvas can often be used better as a reflector than as a wrap.
>
> It takes some bedding to stay comfortable in winter, survival can be 
> done with a lot less.  We are (in most instances) no longer able to 
> practice old ways of woodcraft (bough beds and such) as it would 
> denude areas we must share with others.  Because we can't cut what we 
> want every night it requires us to carry what we need.  A toboggan is 
> one practical choice: without snow a wheelbarrow (like Buck Connor 
> uses) is another.  Of course horses were the chosen method back then, 
> but then this is now.  Dog sleds, sledges, travois, knapsacks, 
> primitive style packframe/chairs and many other quasi period methods 
> are available to a clever mind.  Just remember none are accurate 
> portrayals they are expedients required because of time and 
> circumstance.  A hand cart is as anachronistic as my Pickup; some seem 
> to think it looks better in camp.
>
> Ole has detailed what would be a practical and not uncommon bedroll of 
> the period, yes it is a lot of weight but much of it would have been 
> used first for other purposes.  Mountain Men weren't backpackers, most 
> of the time.
>
> Many years ago I was inspecting an old hotel in an out of the way 
> location in Wyoming; down in storage there was a huge bundle of 
> canvas, blankets, quilts, comforters, sheep skins and every other kind 
> of thing you can imagine.  When I asked what it was the manager 
> explained it was a sheep herders bedroll that they were holding 
> against room rent, when cold weather came he would redeem it.
>
> John...
>
>
> At 05:23 PM 11/12/03, you wrote:
>> No problem if you have three mules.
>> Don
>>
>>> Ole,
>>>
>>> What do you estimate the total weight to be of 1 Hudson bay, 1 
>>> Whitney, 2
>>> Barron 5 point blankets wrapped with canvas, together with the 
>>> addition of 3
>>> Hudson bay's and 1 Whitney as a ground pad wrapped with Russian 
>>> sheeting?
>>> Can you carry this or does it require some other means of 
>>> transportation?
>>> It will surely keep you warm and dry, but the bulk and weight seem 
>>> somewhat
>>> intimidating in my view, and I would assume that this set-up is not 
>>> for a
>>> walk-in situation, or am I mistaken?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> > Don,
>>> > For years I have used 1 hudson bay, 1 whitney, and 2 Barron 5 point
>>> > blankets wraped with canvas.
>>> > In the future I will use the same with the addition of 3 hudson 
>>> bay's
>>> > and 1 whitney as a ground pad wraped with russian sheating.
>>> > Ole
>>> > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 07:00 PM, Phyllis and Don Keas 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Wool blankets have always done me very well.  The coldest I have 
>>> slept
>>> > > is 12 below and two Witneys.  I did all right, but now I am 
>>> older and
>>> > > plan on carrying three in the winter.  Old age you know.  Don
>>> > >
>>> > > On Monday, November 10, 2003 11:42 AM, roger lahti
>>> > > <amm1719@charter.net> wrote:
>>> > >> I got to agree with bb on bison robes being a pain if they get 
>>> wet.
>>> > >> But I
>>> > >> suspect that, well I know my robe is warmer than an equivalent 
>>> weight
>>> > >> of
>>> > >> wool blanket. To make the blankets warm at all you still need 
>>> some
>>> > >> sort of
>>> > >> air barrier like a canvas bed roll to cut the air movement by 
>>> the
>>> > >> blanket.
>>> > >> The robe comes with it's own barrier but it's not water 
>>> repellent at
>>> > >> all.
>>> > >> Brain tan is very light though when done right with plenty of 
>>> hide
>>> > >> shaving
>>> > >> to get it thin as possible.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I still have good use for my wool blankets.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Capt. Lahti
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> >
>>
>> If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
>> john <kramer@kramerize.com>
>>
>> Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit 
>> of the American Mountain Men
>> http://amm-auction.com/
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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