From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1357 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, May 26 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1357 In this issue: -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: trumpline -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: Cinches -牋牋牋 RE: MtMan-List: trumpline -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: trumpline -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: Cinches ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:14:28 -0600 From: "Ben" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C4430A.3ADCCF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rick, When I read Crazy's post I thought of the latigo strap...just my = thoughts. I guess I should let Crazy answer the question though. It did = bring up the question in my mind if cinch straps back then were made = like modern one's. I think the latigo strap has gone probably gone the = way of all equipment and given way to newer...not neccisarily better... = ways. Ben ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rick Williams=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 9:16 AM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Crazy, When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of = leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands? =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of = GazeingCyot@cs.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline =20 I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules = to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on = foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this = account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee = almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.=20 On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our = Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine = Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care = of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the = purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. = We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our = time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our = four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies = river, to meet the rest of the company.=20 Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a = burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one = made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used = because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been = made from what ever they had at hand at the time.=20 This my take on this.=20 Crazy Cyot=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C4430A.3ADCCF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Rick,

When I read Crazy's post I thought of = the latigo=20 strap...just my thoughts. I guess I should let Crazy answer the question = though.=20 It did bring up the question in my mind if cinch straps back then were = made like=20 modern one's. I think the latigo strap has gone probably gone the way of = all=20 equipment and given way to newer...not neccisarily better...=20 ways.

Ben

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rick=20 Williams
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 = 9:16=20 AM

Subject: RE: MtMan-List: = trumpline

Crazy,

When you = say cinch=20 leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? Would that be a single piece = or several=20 strands?

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = owner-hist_text@lists.= xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 = 10:31=20 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:=20 trumpline

I will=20 agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to = pack there=20 gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack = there=20 bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of = these=20 times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on = foot in=20 January and they call me Crazy.

On the morning of the 14th, = finding=20 every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man = with his=20 bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving = four men=20 only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver = skins we=20 took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for = horses,=20 mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle = of may,=20 as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that = time, our=20 four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the = Laramies=20 river, to meet the rest of the company.

Any way it does not = say how=20 they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline = like the=20 Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. = Would=20 be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there = gear=20 would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the = time.=20

This my take on this.
Crazy Cyot =

- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C4430A.3ADCCF60-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:46:44 -0700 (PDT) From: CHANCE TIFFIE Subject: MtMan-List: Cinches - --0-1264938888-1085618804=:26592 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A paper I have, entitled "Desciption of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," shows some interesting saddles of our period of interest. All appear to have latigo straps for attaching the cinch, but only two still have the original cinch. A "mexican" saddle of about 1835 has it's cinch, which appears to be heavy fabric webbing, finished with leather ends, and chafe pads. The cinch rings are D shaped, with tongues. The other is a "hybrid" saddle of about 1840, from the lower Missouri river region. Concerning the cinch, it says, "Single center rigging employs a tanned leather cinch strap attached to the off side side-board beneath the outer skirt. On the on side, it is secured by a square buckle suspended from a leather loop attached to the sideboard beneath the outer skirt. A rectangular leather flap attached to the sideboard lies just beneath this loop and buckle." This definitely does not tell the whole story, but I found it interesting, and thought I would pass it along. My wife and I, have been using the cinches from our saddles to carry our burdens for years. Instead of across the forehead, I prefer to carry the load over the balls of my shoulders. The latigo cinch straps would work as well. - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger - --0-1264938888-1085618804=:26592 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

A paper I have, entitled "Desciption of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," shows some interesting saddles of our period of interest. All appear to have latigo straps for attaching the cinch, but only two still have the original cinch. A "mexican" saddle of about 1835 has it's cinch, which appears to be heavy fabric webbing, finished with leather ends, and chafe pads. The cinch rings are D shaped, with tongues. The other is a "hybrid" saddle of about 1840, from the lower Missouri river region. Concerning the cinch, it says, "Single center rigging employs a tanned leather cinch strap attached to the off side side-board beneath the outer skirt. On the on side, it is secured by a square buckle suspended from a leather loop attached to the sideboard beneath the outer skirt. A rectangular leather flap attached to the sideboard lies just beneath this loop and buckle."

This definitely does not tell the whole story, but I found it interesting, and thought I would pass it along.

My wife and I, have been using the cinches from our saddles to carry our burdens for years. Instead of across the forehead, I prefer to carry the load over the balls of my shoulders. The latigo cinch straps would work as well.

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger - --0-1264938888-1085618804=:26592-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:07:52 -0700 From: "Kim-Ken Carpenter" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline - ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I found this on the net re tumplines. Go to: http://www.colonialmarket.com/nita/howto.html - ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Quilter To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Sent: 5/26/2004 8:59:30 AM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution. What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy men! Pat Quilter - -----Original Message----- From: Rick Williams [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Crazy, When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands? - -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GazeingCyot@cs.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy. On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company. Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time. This my take on this. Crazy Cyot - ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I found this on the net re tumplines. Go to:

http://www.colonialmarket.com/nita/howto.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Pat Quilter

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Sent: 5/26/2004 8:59:30 AM

Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline

Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution.

What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy men!

Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Williams [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline

Crazy,

When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands?

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline

I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.

On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company.

Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time.

This my take on this.
Crazy Cyot

- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:27:11 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C44370.967B5600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am glad that some of you have picked this subject up and expanded it. = I think my answer, although for the most part accurate, was a bit = cavilier. The point being that burdens were sometimes carried on men's = backs and those men could easily been familiar with tumplines from their = earlier life. It would be much easier to justify something that easily = manufactured in a make do situation than to justify a nice framed pack = or pack basket. Another option is a modified panyard. That's the pair of bags that hang = on the side of a mule. The loops can be modified to make it serviceable = on a persons back. Pat, not to suggest that some of those boys weren't tough but if I = recall Lenards group had no idea how far they had to go and never made = it anyway. Am I wrong here? Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Pat Quilter=20 To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 9:59 AM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of = HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is = something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the = trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period = solution.=20 What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in = 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with = the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria = after they lost their horses. These were hardy men! Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- From: Rick Williams [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Crazy, When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of = leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands? =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of = GazeingCyot@cs.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline =20 I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and = Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off = on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this = account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee = almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.=20 On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our = Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine = Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care = of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the = purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. = We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our = time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our = four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies = river, to meet the rest of the company.=20 Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think = a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one = made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used = because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been = made from what ever they had at hand at the time.=20 This my take on this.=20 Crazy Cyot=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C44370.967B5600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am glad that some of you have picked = this subject=20 up and expanded it. I think my answer, although for the most part=20 accurate, was a bit cavilier. The point being that burdens were = sometimes=20 carried on men's backs and those men could easily been familiar with = tumplines=20 from their earlier life. It would be much easier to justify = something that=20 easily manufactured in a make do situation than to justify a nice framed = pack or=20 pack basket.

Another option is a modified = panyard. That's=20 the pair of bags that hang on the side of a mule. The loops can be = modified to make it serviceable on a persons back.

Pat, not to suggest that some of those = boys weren't=20 tough but if I recall Lenards group had no idea how far they had to go = and never=20 made it anyway. Am I wrong here?

Wynn Ormond

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Pat=20 Quilter
To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.= com'=20

Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 = 9:59=20 AM

Subject: RE: MtMan-List: = trumpline

Good=20 extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW=20 expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is = something=20 like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a = tumpline=20 (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution.=20

What=20 I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 = months -=20 works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 = mile=20 days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost = their=20 horses. These were hardy men!

Pat=20 Quilter

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Williams=20 [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, = 2004 8:17=20 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE: = MtMan-List: trumpline

Crazy,

When you = say cinch=20 leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? Would that be a single = piece or=20 several strands?

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 = 10:31=20 PM
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:=20 trumpline

I will=20 agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to = pack=20 there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot = and pack=20 there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from = one of=20 these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles = away on=20 foot in January and they call me Crazy.

On the morning of = the 14th,=20 finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, = each man=20 with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; = leaving=20 four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. = The beaver=20 skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of = Santafee for=20 horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till = the middle=20 of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within = that=20 time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth = of the=20 Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company.

Any way it = does not=20 say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or = trumpline=20 like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle = chinch=20 leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they = used to=20 pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had = at hand=20 at the time.

This my take on this.
Crazy Cyot=20

- ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C44370.967B5600-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:36:43 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C44371.EB91C1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chance can you tell us more about the paper you mentioned? Like what = Renwick is and how good the research is and how to get a copy. Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CHANCE TIFFIE=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 6:46 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Cinches A paper I have, entitled "Desciption of saddlery in the Renwick = Exhibition," shows some interesting saddles of our period of interest. = All appear to have latigo straps for attaching the cinch, but only two = still have the original cinch. A "mexican" saddle of about 1835 has = it's cinch, which appears to be heavy fabric webbing, finished with = leather ends, and chafe pads. The cinch rings are D shaped, with = tongues. The other is a "hybrid" saddle of about 1840, from the lower = Missouri river region. Concerning the cinch, it says, "Single center = rigging employs a tanned leather cinch strap attached to the off side = side-board beneath the outer skirt. On the on side, it is secured by a = square buckle suspended from a leather loop attached to the sideboard = beneath the outer skirt. A rectangular leather flap attached to the = sideboard lies just beneath this loop and buckle." This definitely does not tell the whole story, but I found it = interesting, and thought I would pass it along. My wife and I, have been using the cinches from our saddles to carry = our burdens for years. Instead of across the forehead, I prefer to = carry the load over the balls of my shoulders. The latigo cinch straps = would work as well. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger - ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C44371.EB91C1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chance can you tell us more about the = paper you=20 mentioned? Like what Renwick is and how good the research is and = how to=20 get a copy.

Wynn Ormond

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CHANCE = TIFFIE=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 = 6:46=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: = Cinches

A paper I have, entitled "Desciption of saddlery in the Renwick=20 Exhibition," shows some interesting saddles of our period of = interest. =20 All appear to have latigo straps for attaching the cinch, but only two = still=20 have the original cinch. A "mexican" saddle of about 1835 has = it's=20 cinch, which appears to be heavy fabric webbing, finished with leather = ends,=20 and chafe pads. The cinch rings are D shaped, with = tongues. =20 The other is a "hybrid" saddle of about 1840, from the lower Missouri = river=20 region. Concerning the cinch, it says, "Single center rigging = employs a=20 tanned leather cinch strap attached to the off side side-board beneath = the=20 outer skirt. On the on side, it is secured by a square buckle = suspended=20 from a leather loop attached to the sideboard beneath the outer = skirt. A=20 rectangular leather flap attached to the sideboard lies just beneath = this loop=20 and buckle."

This definitely does not tell the whole story, but I found it = interesting,=20 and thought I would pass it along.

My wife and I, have been using the cinches from our saddles to = carry our=20 burdens for years. Instead of across the forehead, I prefer to = carry the=20 load over the balls of my shoulders. The latigo cinch straps = would work=20 as well.

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo!=20 Messenger

- ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C44371.EB91C1A0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1357 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.