From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1358 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, May 27 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1358 In this issue: -       RE: MtMan-List: trumpline -       RE: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap -       Re: MtMan-List: Cinches -       RE: MtMan-List: Cinches -       Re: MtMan-List: tumpline -       Re: MtMan-List: tumpline -       RE: MtMan-List: Cinches -       Re: MtMan-List: tumpline ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:50:22 -0700 From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C443A6.1E139B10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I do recall Leanard's group foundering in a snow-bound pass and barely getting out alive (an amazing tale in itself). So it was "even tougher" than they bargained for! You're right about paniards and their utility for back-packing. Ditto with saddlebags. Best regards Pat - -----Original Message----- From: Wynn Ormond [mailto:cheyenne@pcu.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 9:27 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline I am glad that some of you have picked this subject up and expanded it. I think my answer, although for the most part accurate, was a bit cavilier. The point being that burdens were sometimes carried on men's backs and those men could easily been familiar with tumplines from their earlier life. It would be much easier to justify something that easily manufactured in a make do situation than to justify a nice framed pack or pack basket. Another option is a modified panyard. That's the pair of bags that hang on the side of a mule. The loops can be modified to make it serviceable on a persons back. Pat, not to suggest that some of those boys weren't tough but if I recall Lenards group had no idea how far they had to go and never made it anyway. Am I wrong here? Wynn Ormond - ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Quilter To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com' Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 9:59 AM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution. What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy men! Pat Quilter - -----Original Message----- From: Rick Williams [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Crazy, When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands? - -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GazeingCyot@cs.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy. On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company. Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time. This my take on this. Crazy Cyot - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C443A6.1E139B10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I do=20 recall Leanard's group foundering in a snow-bound pass and barely = getting out=20 alive (an amazing tale in itself). So it was "even tougher" than they = bargained=20 for!
You're=20 right about paniards and their utility for back-packing. Ditto with = saddlebags.=20
Best=20 regards
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: Wynn Ormond=20 [mailto:cheyenne@pcu.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 = 9:27=20 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re:=20 MtMan-List: trumpline

I am glad that some of you have = picked this=20 subject up and expanded it.  I think my answer, although for the = most=20 part accurate, was a bit cavilier.  The point being that burdens = were=20 sometimes carried on men's backs and those men could easily been = familiar with=20 tumplines from their earlier life.  It would be much easier to = justify=20 something that easily manufactured in a make do situation than to = justify a=20 nice framed pack or pack basket.
 
Another option is a modified = panyard. =20 That's the pair of bags that hang on the side of a mule.  The = loops can=20 be modified to make it serviceable on a persons back.
 
 
Pat, not to suggest that some of = those boys=20 weren't tough but if I recall Lenards group had no idea how far they = had to go=20 and never made it anyway.  Am I wrong here?
Wynn Ormond
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Pat=20 Quilter
To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com' =
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, = 2004 9:59=20 AM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List:=20 trumpline

Good extract for discussion. I have not = yet found=20 any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - = the=20 farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our = backs, we=20 resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a = very likely=20 period solution.
 
What I find equally amazing is the = MILEAGE - 1600=20 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, = day-out. This=20 correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition = returning=20 from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy=20 men!
 
Pat Quilter
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Williams = [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, = 2004=20 8:17 AM
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE:=20 MtMan-List: trumpline

Crazy,

When = you say=20 cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? =  Would that be a single = piece or=20 several strands?

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, = 2004 10:31=20 PM
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:=20 trumpline

 

I will=20 agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules = to pack=20 there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on = foot and=20 pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this = account from=20 one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 = miles=20 away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.

On the = morning of=20 the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, = we set=20 out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, = packed upon=20 his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, = and the=20 two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to = the=20 inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed = from the=20 middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- = ing; and=20 if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait = no=20 longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet = the rest of=20 the company.

Any way it does not say how they packed = there gear=20 but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians = used made=20 of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be = what they=20 would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear = would have=20 had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time. =

This=20 my take on this.
Crazy Cyot






- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C443A6.1E139B10-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 06:16:48 -0600 From: "Larry" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap send me your snail mail address. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Samuel Keller Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:42 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap That would be great, I wear a 7 5/8 (swelled head) but my wife wants to make more of them. - --- Larry wrote: > which size do you need, I made up the three sizes > with a seamstress friend > if you need the patterns. > > larry > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 05:37:53 -0700 (PDT) From: CHANCE TIFFIE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches - --0-2110374195-1085661473=:17966 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to you. - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger - --0-2110374195-1085661473=:17966 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Wynn,

The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112.

The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology.

As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory.

Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology."  Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole,  omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to you.

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger - --0-2110374195-1085661473=:17966-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 07:13:24 -0600 From: "Jerry Bell" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C443BA.1D8CEED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been doing a lot of studying of saddles. I would love a copy of the pages you have of this paper. How would I be able to get a complete copy? Jerry - -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:38 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to you. _____ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger - ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C443BA.1D8CEED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have been doing a lot of studying = of saddles.  I would love a copy of the pages you have of this = paper.  How would I be able to get a complete copy?

 

Jerry

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE
Sent: Thursday, May 27, = 2004 6:38 AM
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Cinches

 

Wynn,

The paper entitled"Description of = saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of = Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah = 84112.

The Renwick exhibition was a collection of = saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National = Museum of History and Technology.

As far as the research, these saddles were = thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the = Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory.

Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, = the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History = and Technology."  Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial = copy of the whole,  omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will = be glad to send them to you.

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new = Yahoo! Messenger

- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C443BA.1D8CEED0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:07:11 -0500 From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tumpline We discussed how the mountaineers carried stuff when they were unfortunate enough to have to walk on these pages some time back, and back in January of this year. I don't think the Leonard quote was mentioned before, but I posted that Charles Larpenter used a saddle bag. Charles Larpenter was a clerk, trader, and independent agent on the upper Missouri from 1833 to 1872. He kept a daily journal that provides us a fine window into history. His journals were first published in 1898 as "Forty Years a Fur Trader." A more recent University of Nebraska Press Bison Book was published in 1989. On July 3, 1834 Larpenter wrote: "My load to Fort Union was not very encumbering; my old saddle bags, made of a yard of brown muslin, sewed at both ends with a slit in the middle, containing two red flannel shirts, pretty well worn, and one check shirt, and one old white 3-point blanket, were about all I had brought to Fort Union; my tin pan and cup I left behind." I wrote of an experiment where I emulated Larpenter on a short jaunt I took several years ago. It is lengthy, so I will not repost it unless someone asks. My impression of a tumpline is that it is a torture device that keeps on giving pain the next morning in the form of a crick in the neck. To add insult to injury, it prevents the wearer from enjoying a walk by keeping the user facing straight ahead on the trail. Maybe not too healthy in hostile territory. But, the mountaineers were not whiners and it may be historically correct - another chink in the armor of the pseudo-science of experimental archaeology. Iron Burner Glenn Darilek - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:01:49 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tumpline Iron Burner, You should come to Fort Union this June (June 17-20) for the Annual Rendezvous held there. It is great to stand in rooms and in the bastions that Larpenteur describes in his fine journal. All the rangers there quote Larpenteur too like he is an old friend. I didn't appreciate Fort Union until I read his journal. One of the Park Rangers, Dennis, even took the large American Fur Company Flag that flew over the fort and hung it in a tree over Larpenteur's grave which I believe is in the midwest. I'm inviting you to come. I don't know if you have ever been there. This years rendezvous guest speaker is James Hanson. I'd also like to read the story of your jaunt. bb > We discussed how the mountaineers carried stuff when they were > unfortunate enough to have to walk on these pages some time back, and > back in January of this year. I don't think the Leonard quote was > mentioned before, but I posted that Charles Larpenter used a saddle bag. > Charles Larpenter was a clerk, trader, and independent agent on the > upper Missouri from 1833 to 1872. He kept a daily journal that provides > us a fine window into history. His journals were first published in 1898 > as "Forty Years a Fur Trader." A more recent University of Nebraska > Press Bison Book was published in 1989. > > On July 3, 1834 Larpenter wrote: "My load to Fort Union was not very > encumbering; my old saddle bags, made of a yard of brown muslin, sewed > at both ends with a slit in the middle, containing two red flannel > shirts, pretty well worn, and one check shirt, and one old white 3-point > blanket, were about all I had brought to Fort Union; my tin pan and cup > I left behind." > > I wrote of an experiment where I emulated Larpenter on a short jaunt I > took several years ago. It is lengthy, so I will not repost it unless > someone asks. > > My impression of a tumpline is that it is a torture device that keeps on > giving pain the next morning in the form of a crick in the neck. To add > insult to injury, it prevents the wearer from enjoying a walk by keeping > the user facing straight ahead on the trail. Maybe not too healthy in > hostile territory. But, the mountaineers were not whiners and it may be > historically correct - another chink in the armor of the pseudo-science > of experimental archaeology. > > Iron Burner > Glenn Darilek > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:34:44 -0800 From: "Cheyenne" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches Jerry

If I gett a chance I will do some research through my local college (USU) and see if I can come up with something.  I am in Utah so I might be able to get some info from the Museum that Chance refers to.

Wynn

--------- Original Message --------
From: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches
Date: 27/05/04 13:14

I have been doing a lot of studying of saddles.  I would love a copy of the pages you have of this paper.  How would I be able to get a complete copy?

 

Jerry

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:38 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches

 

Wynn,

The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112.

The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology.

As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory.

Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology."  Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole,  omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to you.

 

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- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 11:27:02 -0700 From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tumpline Iron Burner, Something in your contribution below seems to imply that a tumpline must be used across the forehead like a "burden strap" which to my understanding is a very "Indian" tool for carrying "burdens", usually depicted as being used by women but perhaps also by men in non-horse cultures such as in the SW tribes (four corners area). I've always used a "Tumpline" across my chest starting from above one shoulder, then diagonally to below the opposite arm. Not that it is very comfortable but surely more so than across the forehead of one not used to such a method and in both of those styles of course not as comfortable as two straps from a "pack" or "knap sack" style system. And Mr. Larpenter's description of "saddle bags" sounds suspiciously like a "new improved haversack" but without the two shoulder straps, also not a particularly wonderful way of carrying a load on your person. I'm thinking that the question of whether they did or did not do one thing or another may boil down to what was to be carried, what materials they had to fabricate a carrying system and finally by what they might have seen or used in their past that would suggest "this is how it should be done". YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1358 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.