From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1368 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, June 13 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1368 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: How old or young..... -       Re: MtMan-List: How old or young..... -       MtMan-List: Thank You Very Much -       Re: MtMan-List: Starting young ones -       Fw: MtMan-List: Starting young ones -       Re: MtMan-List: Starting young ones -       Re: MtMan-List: Starting young ones -       MtMan-List: off topic -       Re: MtMan-List: off topic -       MtMan-List: Moccasin Question -       Re: MtMan-List: off topic -       Re: MtMan-List: Moccasin Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Thank You Very Much -       Re: MtMan-List: Moccasin Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:34:34 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: How old or young..... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C44F00.6EBF4680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <> Ad That is really great. But, in my experience much younger than most = kids are capable of doing. Before about 12 years of age a youngster is lacking two things = necessary for independant shooting. One, the strength to hold a rifle. = Two, a minimal level of maturity. It is great to start youngsters at any age but they will need a = bench rest and absolute 'hands on' help. Teaching basics of safety, = sight picture and trigger pull can be done very early. (the other) Frank - ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C44F00.6EBF4680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    =    =20 <<I started my son shgooting at 8 y/o... = used a=20 .22... by 10 he was shooting
my Hawken .50....

Ad=20 Miller>>

 
Ad
    That is = really great.=20 But, in my experience much younger than most kids are capable of=20 doing.
    Before = about 12 years=20 of age a youngster is lacking two things necessary for independant = shooting.=20 One, the strength to hold a rifle. Two, a minimal level of=20 maturity.
    It is = great to start=20 youngsters at any age but they will need a bench rest and absolute = 'hands on'=20 help. Teaching basics of safety, sight picture and trigger pull can be = done very=20 early.
(the other)=20 Frank
- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C44F00.6EBF4680-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:49:31 -0400 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How old or young..... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C44F0A.E6DEB9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ad =20 That is really great. But, in my experience much younger than most kids = are capable of doing. Before about 12 years of age a youngster is = lacking two things necessary for independant shooting. One, the strength = to hold a rifle. Two, a minimal level of maturity. It is great to = start youngsters at any age but they will need a bench rest and absolute = 'hands on' help. Teaching basics of safety, sight picture and trigger = pull can be done very early.(the other) Frank True, he did need to "bench rest" it for a bit, but he takes after his = Dad... at 10 y/0 he was as big as any 12 y/o... :) He is now 6'3", 280# = and fairly solid... Fla State Cop... At the Academy, he took the Top Gun = award in all aspects... rifle, pistol and shot gun. THis is a case of = the student far surpassing the instructor, and I am really proud of = him... I never let him go out shooting by himself until he was = 16, and even then it was only to a range with R/O supervision, and .22 = only until he was 18... unless I was there... Ad - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C44F0A.E6DEB9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ad   
 
That is really great. But, in = my=20 experience much younger than most kids are capable of=20 doing.   =20 Before about 12 years of age a youngster is lacking two things necessary = for=20 independant shooting. One, the strength to hold a rifle. Two, a minimal = level of=20 maturity.    It=20 is great to start youngsters at any age but they will need a bench rest = and=20 absolute 'hands on' help. Teaching basics of safety, sight picture and = trigger=20 pull can be done very early.(the other) Frank
 
True, he did need to "bench rest" it for a bit, = but he=20 takes after his Dad... at 10 y/0 he was as big as any 12 y/o... :)  = He is=20 now 6'3", 280# and fairly solid... Fla State Cop... At the Academy, he = took the=20 Top Gun award in all aspects... rifle, pistol and shot gun. THis is a = case of=20 the student far surpassing the instructor, and I am really proud of = him...=20 <grins>  I never let him go out shooting by himself until he = was 16,=20 and even then it was only to a range with R/O supervision, and .22 only = until he=20 was 18... unless I was there...
 
Ad
- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C44F0A.E6DEB9C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:05:59 -0400 From: "Ikon" Subject: MtMan-List: Thank You Very Much This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C44F1D.F78BD9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks a bunch guys. I was hoping you would say what you said. I will = start of course with the safety. I will also start looking for a = smaller muzzle loader. The two 50 cal GPRs I feel are a bit too heavy. I have a couple months since I can't take her to the range or around = guns until the adoption is final. DFCS rules, no guns, bows are okay. = We started fostering two girls, at the time she was 8yrs old and her = sister was 5 months old. We started the adoption proceeding yesterday. = Thanks for all your input, I will be saving the responses and letting my = wife read them. Funny thing, 9 years ago when we got married, my wife said our children = will never be around guns or go hunting. How times change or how a = Yankee country boy changed a Southern city girl. Frank - ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C44F1D.F78BD9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks a bunch guys.  I was hoping = you would=20 say what you said.  I will start of course with the = safety.  I=20 will also start looking for a smaller muzzle loader.  The two 50 = cal GPRs I=20 feel are a bit too heavy.
 
I have a couple months since I can't = take her to=20 the range or around guns until the adoption is final.  DFCS rules, = no guns,=20 bows are okay.  We started fostering two girls, at the time = she was=20 8yrs old and her sister was   5 months old. We started the = adoption=20 proceeding yesterday.
 
Thanks for all your input, I will be = saving the=20 responses and letting my wife read them.
 
Funny thing, 9 years ago when we got = married, my=20 wife said our children will never be around guns or go hunting.  = How times=20 change or how a Yankee country boy changed a Southern city = girl.
 
Frank
- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C44F1D.F78BD9C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:00:16 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Starting young ones Dennis how the hell did those kids get that old? It just aint been that many years has it? Secondly, someone suggested a bb gun and that is something I don't agree with. For the most, I believe they are too inaccurate to teach sight picture and marksmanship, but more importantly, safety, they get treated like they are not a real gun. My friend Tom said his Dad agreed with me and he owned a muzzleloader instead of a bb gun. The idea of plinking birds out of a tree with the nieghbors window next to it was unheard of for him. But how many times is that exactly what happens with a bb gun. We even played army with our bb guns as kids and we near put a kids eye out. Wynn Ormond - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Knapp" To: Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 8:43 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Starting young ones > Frank, > I know every child isdifferent. That being said, this is what occured with my boys. We began doing the mountain man thing when my boys were 6 and 3. Alan, now 16 began > shooting at 6 years old. Andy, now 13 did not begin shooting till he was seven. They both began with sawed off cheap .50 cal cap locks guns. Then both moved onto > Traditions youth model .50 cal flinters. Since out growing both of those guns, they both shoot flintlocks (one a Lyman GPR, the other a T/C Hawkins) rifles and ML > shotguns. Throughout the years since they began shooting, both went through stages where they did not want to shoot at events or club shoots. There IS/WAS no pressure for > them to do so, even today. All of our hunting has been with ML's. In 4 years of hunting Alan has killed 2 mule deer bucks and an elk, all with his flintlocks. Andy has > hunted 1 year and killed his first buck with his smokeploe as well. They are both into the historical aspect of this hobby as much or more than the shooting. > Treat each child as their interest and abilities dictate. Never pressure them or you'll loose them. Get them on the ground as much as possible too. They will grow up with > a respect for history and the life this hobby provides. As they mature, their lives may turn such that the hobby has to be put on the back burner for awhile, but they > will return as it is a part of their being. BTW, the boys and I are heading out on a Missouri River canoe trek next week, ending up at Fort Union. > Lastly, enjoy your time with your children, they grow up way too fast. > Regards, > Dennis Knapp > southern Idaho > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:32:23 -0500 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Starting young ones Right on, Wynn. I once had a BB dug out of my lower lip by Dr Tolbert Yater. David Merrill shot me from about two feet with one of those slide action BB guns that came out in the '60''s.......we considered them to be magnums at the time. It's a wonder he didn't put out an eye or something. One time Mike Winters dad bought him a carton of about a million BBs and all the neighborhood boys divided them up and chose sides and had an all day war. Half of us were holed up in Mr Winter's garage and the rest slinked around the back fence and in the alley and we shot back and forth all damn day. I don't remember if anybody got shot but I DO remember that Mr Winter's garage looked like a golf ball when it was over. Had to be 5000 BB dinks in it. That said, I have a 50th Anniversary Red Ryder Commerative BB gun that I can shoot like a laser and have popped many a dog in the arse to get him out of my trash can. I used to show off by shooting from the hip and hitting my mailbox from my front porch about 7 shots our of 8. World class shots can do that. BB guns are fun but get kids on firearms as soon as you think they are ready. Lanney - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wynn Ormond" To: Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:00 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Starting young ones > Dennis how the hell did those kids get that old? It just aint been that > many years has it? > > Secondly, someone suggested a bb gun and that is something I don't agree > with. For the most, I believe they are too inaccurate to teach sight > picture and marksmanship, but more importantly, safety, they get treated > like they are not a real gun. My friend Tom said his Dad agreed with me and > he owned a muzzleloader instead of a bb gun. The idea of plinking birds out > of a tree with the nieghbors window next to it was unheard of for him. But > how many times is that exactly what happens with a bb gun. We even played > army with our bb guns as kids and we near put a kids eye out. > > Wynn Ormond > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Knapp" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 8:43 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Starting young ones > > > > Frank, > > I know every child isdifferent. That being said, this is what occured with > my boys. We began doing the mountain man thing when my boys were 6 and 3. > Alan, now 16 began > > shooting at 6 years old. Andy, now 13 did not begin shooting till he was > seven. They both began with sawed off cheap .50 cal cap locks guns. Then > both moved onto > > Traditions youth model .50 cal flinters. Since out growing both of those > guns, they both shoot flintlocks (one a Lyman GPR, the other a T/C Hawkins) > rifles and ML > > shotguns. Throughout the years since they began shooting, both went > through stages where they did not want to shoot at events or club shoots. > There IS/WAS no pressure for > > them to do so, even today. All of our hunting has been with ML's. In 4 > years of hunting Alan has killed 2 mule deer bucks and an elk, all with his > flintlocks. Andy has > > hunted 1 year and killed his first buck with his smokeploe as well. They > are both into the historical aspect of this hobby as much or more than the > shooting. > > Treat each child as their interest and abilities dictate. Never pressure > them or you'll loose them. Get them on the ground as much as possible too. > They will grow up with > > a respect for history and the life this hobby provides. As they mature, > their lives may turn such that the hobby has to be put on the back burner > for awhile, but they > > will return as it is a part of their being. BTW, the boys and I are > heading out on a Missouri River canoe trek next week, ending up at Fort > Union. > > Lastly, enjoy your time with your children, they grow up way too fast. > > Regards, > > Dennis Knapp > > southern Idaho > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 05:01:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Lars Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Starting young ones - --0-665453163-1086955273=:42152 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I can relate to kids not being supervised and shooting birds with BB guns, not to mention their eyes out. Parents that give their kids these to "play with" never read any safety guidlines. Young ones (4 or 5 year olds) can learn safety with BB guns if they are taught to treat every gun that shoots the same in regards to safety. New ones are plenty accurate for 20' to 25' to learn techniques (pick one with a good sight). Cans, plates, clay pigeons, they all provide good targets with movement (on a string). It's a tool for young ones. I never allowed my sons to have free time with the BB gun. It was always a controlled experience where safety is concerned. I liked the idea someone mentioned about a 1x2 wooden gun with sights being used to teach the first steps of handling a gun on a range. Great teaching aid. And yes, they always start from a bench rest. Same with a BB or an unloaded firearm. You have a good point with strenght being a factor with age. It's just if you start the real young ones out with something to shoot at an early age, always having controlled supervision for safety, and something that doesn't kick, they have fun and want to shoot more often. They progress to the big bores in no time. Muzzle safety and control becomes second nature. Too many youth learn gun handling from movies. - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger - --0-665453163-1086955273=:42152 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I can relate to kids not being supervised and shooting birds with BB guns, not to mention their eyes out.  Parents that give their kids these to "play with" never read any safety guidlines.  Young ones (4 or 5 year olds) can learn safety with BB guns if they are taught to treat every gun that shoots the same in regards to safety.  New ones are plenty accurate for 20' to 25' to learn techniques (pick one with a good sight).  Cans, plates, clay pigeons, they all provide good targets with movement (on a string).  It's a tool for young ones.  I never allowed my sons to have free time with the BB gun.  It was always a controlled experience where safety is concerned.  I liked the idea someone mentioned about a 1x2 wooden gun with sights being used to teach the first steps of handling a gun on a range. Great teaching aid. And yes, they always start from a bench rest.  Same with a BB or an unloaded firearm.  You have a good point with strenght being a factor with age.  It's just if you start the real young ones out with something to shoot at an early age, always having controlled supervision for safety, and something that doesn't kick, they have fun and want to shoot more often. They progress to the big bores in no time.   Muzzle safety and control becomes second nature.   Too many youth learn gun handling from movies.     


Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger - --0-665453163-1086955273=:42152-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:31:26 EDT From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Starting young ones - -------------------------------1087007486 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/04 8:01:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, camperfox428@yahoo.com writes: Too many youth learn gun handling from movies. I was real worried about that too. I bought a "model" side by side from Sportsman's Guide. You can't really call it a toy. It is REALLY nice, incredibly detailed. I bought it for my father in law so he could help train my son who is now 5. I did some investigating on the Net about kids and firearm safety. There is a WHOLE MOVEMENT that wants to band all forms of toy guns. One side of the argument wants them banded for moral reasons the other side wants kids to learn safety using training guides and fire arms (under adult supervision of course) That side believes toy guns only confuse children about the responsibilities of firearms. It turns out my boy is totally uninterested in the shot gun. I'm still trying to get him into his rondy clothes to do an event or two this summer. Watch your topknot John Seminerio - -------------------------------1087007486 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 6/11/04 8:01:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, camperfox4= 28@yahoo.com writes:
Too many youth learn gun handling from movies.=      
I was real worried about that too.  I bought a "model" side by sid= e from Sportsman's Guide.  You can't really call it a toy.  It is=20= REALLY nice, incredibly detailed.  I bought it for my father in law so=20= he could help train my son who is now 5.  I did some investigating on t= he Net about kids and firearm safety. There is a WHOLE MOVEMENT that wants t= o band all forms of toy guns.  One side of the argument wants them band= ed for moral reasons the other side wants kids to learn safety using trainin= g guides and fire arms (under adult supervision of course)  That side b= elieves toy guns only confuse children about the responsibilities of firearm= s.
 
It turns out my boy is totally uninterested in the shot gun.  I'm=20= still trying to get him into his rondy clothes to do an event or two this su= mmer.
 
Watch your topknot
John Seminerio
- -------------------------------1087007486-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:51:45 -0500 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: off topic Goodbye, Mr. President. Thank you for a job well done. Lanney Ratcliff lanneyratcliff@charter.net ______________________________________________________________ Aux Aliments du Pays - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:45:34 -0400 From: Fred Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic On Friday June 11 2004 11:51 pm, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > Goodbye, Mr. President. =A0Thank you for a job well done. Quite right. =46red =2D-=20 Ronald Reagan 1911 - 2004 An American Patriot who hated Communism and Socialism, never=20 brought shame upon himself, his family, his political offices or abused=20 the trust of the American People. We love you and we wonder when another=20 like you or Theodore Roosevelt will arise again. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:47:23 -0600 From: "Edward Stuart" Subject: MtMan-List: Moccasin Question Folks, I am heading out for a brief trip overseas and I plan to do some serious practice in moccasin making. Right now I am perplexed with which pattern to use. I am working towards gear that fits the Idaho, Montana, Wyoming areas of 1825 - 1840. If I were to chose a native American tribe to pattern my gear after, it would be the Crow. So far the list to choose from includes the one-piece (reference on pattern states that Rufus Sage used this type), pucker-top, two-piece plains, or one-piece plains. Your input, as usual, would be greatly helpful. Ed "Brother Bear" Stuart Great Falls MT - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:48:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Samuel Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Amen - --- Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > Goodbye, Mr. President. Thank you for a job well > done. > > > Lanney Ratcliff > lanneyratcliff@charter.net > ______________________________________________________________ > Aux Aliments du Pays > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:29:15 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moccasin Question I could be refering to the same ones as you are but using a different name but as far as my understanding goes the list has two choices on it. The side seam that the Indains and Rufus used or the pucker toe that you see so frequently in the art work. Both patterns are pretty good as far as my experience goes. There was a reall cool pattern in a muzzleloader magazine not long ago for pucker toes that I have not used but I have seen some made form it and they look good and its pretty easy. The other big debate is whether to put a second layer on them for wear/protection. Some sew some glue some say its easier to just make new mocs as to sew on a wear plate. My other advise is if you make pucktoes cut them with the length of flap you want going up the leg. It easier than sewing it on late, Wynn Ormond - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Stuart" To: "Mountain Man Mailing List" Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 10:47 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Moccasin Question > Folks, > > I am heading out for a brief trip overseas and I plan to do some serious > practice in moccasin making. Right now I am perplexed with which pattern to > use. I am working towards gear that fits the Idaho, Montana, Wyoming areas > of 1825 - 1840. If I were to chose a native American tribe to pattern my > gear after, it would be the Crow. So far the list to choose from includes > the one-piece (reference on pattern states that Rufus Sage used this type), > pucker-top, two-piece plains, or one-piece plains. Your input, as usual, > would be greatly helpful. > > > > Ed "Brother Bear" Stuart > Great Falls MT > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:17:55 -0400 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thank You Very Much This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4506E.E8E08770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ikon, pls send me your email address off list... thanks... aomiller@charter.net Regards, Ad Miller - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4506E.E8E08770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ikon, pls send me your email address off list... = thanks...
 
aomiller@charter.net
 
Regards,
 
Ad Miller
- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4506E.E8E08770-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:17:51 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moccasin Question - --part1_a8.2d3c2086.2dfe025f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An option often over looked in that type of moccasin is a mens' version that has an upper similar to womens' but not as high. When you make the cut for the tongue, cut two paralel slices that leaves the tongue in place without stitching (but now you have no flap). Go ahead and complete the stitching as you normally would. Now stitch on a flap 5" - 8" wide. Start by the tongue on the outside of the foot - just as the flap would normally be in place. Attach all the way around to the back seam and continue up to the tongue on the other side. Importaint: Leave enough flap material to pass over the tongue, go past the starting point of stitching (you are no longer stitching now) and go past the ankle.. In other words - a "wrap-around". Now the tie: Most Indians and all mountain men are of the opinion that wrap-around ties cross one another like contemporary shoes or Roman sandels. Wrong! The lace begins with two holes punched with an awl not a regular punch, in the tongue. One end will be much shorter than the other. Take them both to the back seam area and tie off the shorter one with an over-hand hitch. Now - wrap the long thong the same direction as the flap is wrapped. In other words, from the back, forward along the inside of the foot, around the front (flap goes over the tongue) and now toward the back. Keep wrapping, spiraling up to the top. There make three horizonal wraps to finish off. Of course it will fall down. So wrap the final end around the horizonal wraps four or five time. No knot. It will stay in place. Just to make it snug, when you begin this final wrap include the last few inches of the final diagonal wrap with the horizonal wrap. This will stay in place all day while the cross-wrappers will be re-tieing every half hour. They are great for keeping rocks, sticks, and snow out of the inside of the moccasins. I know they were made by Northern Shoshone, Nez Perce, and probably Crow and Blackfoots as well. If you have problems, contact me. Richard James swzypher@aol.com - --part1_a8.2d3c2086.2dfe025f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An option often over looke= d in that type of moccasin is a mens' version that has an upper similar to w= omens' but not as high.   When you make the cut for the tongue, cu= t two paralel slices that leaves the tongue in place without stitching (but=20= now you have no flap).  Go ahead and complete the stitching as you norm= ally would.  Now stitch on a flap 5" - 8" wide.  Start by the tong= ue on the outside of the foot - just as the flap would normall= y be in place.  Attach all the way around to the back seam and continue= up to the tongue on the other side.  Importaint:  Leave enough fl= ap material to pass over the tongue, go past the starting point of stitching= (you are no longer stitching now) and go past the ankle..  In other wo= rds - a "wrap-around".

       Now the tie: Most Indians and all mount= ain men are of the opinion that wrap-around ties cross one another like cont= emporary shoes or Roman sandels.  Wrong!  The lace begins with two= holes punched with an awl not a regular punch, in the tongue.=    One end will be much shorter than the other.  Take them bo= th to the back seam area and tie off the shorter one with an over-hand hitch= .  Now - wrap the long thong the same direction as the flap is wrapped.=   In other words, from the back, forward along the inside of the foot,=20= around the front (flap goes over the tongue) and now toward th= e back.  Keep wrapping, spiraling up to the top.  There make three= horizonal wraps  to finish off.   Of course it will fall dow= n.  So wrap the final end around the horizonal wraps four or five time.=   No knot.  It will stay in place.  Just to make it snug, whe= n you begin this final wrap include the last few inches of the final diagona= l wrap with the horizonal wrap.   This will stay in place all day=20= while the cross-wrappers will be re-tieing every half hour.  They are g= reat for keeping rocks, sticks, and snow out of the inside of the moccasins.=   I know they were made by Northern Shoshone, Nez Perce, and probably C= row and Blackfoots as well.

If you have problems, contact me.
Richard James
swzypher@aol.com
      
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