From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #332 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, July 21 1999 Volume 01 : Number 332 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:44:44 -0500 From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:25:47 -0500 A few years ago an heirloom razor was passed down to me. Not content with having the thing tucked away in a drawer, I decided to use it. Not knowing enough about sharpening and honing, I left it at a barber shop where a professional sharpener came around peiodically and sharpened their scissors, etc. When I got it back, I soaked my stubble and applied the shaving soap from a mug I had also bought. I nervously steadied my nerves to shave with the thing. As I drew it across my cheek, as each hair was severed I heard a high pitched ping accompanied with a sharp impulse of pain. I quickly decided the heirloom was too precious to use for shaving. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ratcliff > To: History List > Cc: AMM > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 5:25 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 > 19:25:47 -0500 > > Hello the list > I recently bought a fine straight razor and a > high quality strop from Buck Connor and at the > tender age of 52 I am learning how to shave with > the thing. So far the results are satisfactory > and the two cuts have not required the paramedics > but I would appreciate any tips and suggestions > regarding shaving with a straight razor. Also, I > would appreciate guidance regarding sharpening and > stroping the blade. Do you apply anything to the > strop? You know....information. > > Now, it isn't often that you will get a Texan to > admit to any deficit in his knowledge of all > things, much less be invited to teach one > something, so jump in there with your expertise > and help me out here. > > By the way, the razor is flat georgeous...ebony > wood handle and a Gerjman solingen blade....worth > every nickle of Buck's price. > > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff > ps: Ain't this a better subject than some that we > have seen lately? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:35:29 -0500 From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic: covered wagon plans Covered wagons are not necessarily off topic. Alfred Jacob Miller painted many of them from his 1836? travels to the west. I seem to remember that they were mostly the two-wheeled variety, but I will check. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner Lewis Kevin Raper wrote: > > Red Hawk Wrote: > > > Greetings List: > > A fellow living history reenactor and friend is trying to build a covered > > wagon. He has the tools, and the expertise but does not have plans or > > dimensions. If any one could help us out with either dimensions, plans or > > point us in the right direction we would be most appreciative. > > > > YMOS > > > > Red Hawk > > (MIA3WOLVES@aol.com > > You might try Dollywood in Pigion Forge TN www.dollywood.com They have a > really good wagon shop that makes authentic wagons. I have seen their > covered wagons fist hand and they are the best. They may be able to help you > with plans or parts. > Watch yer top knot! Possum Hunter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:25:39 -0700 From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic: covered wagon plans The Oregon-California Trails Association (OCTA) puts out a quarterly magazine that a few issues back had a excellent article about emigrant wagons. The article took two issues to complete. It had drawings and measurements of most of the critical parts of the wagon. The author would be a good contact for someone who is thinking about constructing a wagon. You can order the magazine from OCTA, they have a web page: http://calcite.rocky.edu/octa/octahome.htm gail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:53:04 -0500 From: James A Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies I always thought that it was interesting at the end of Michael Curot's (sp?) log of being on the Yellow River (present day Wisconsin) in 1803-4, that when they left in the spring they stopped to visit an indian village by what is now Spooner Lake, to do this they went up the Namakogon River. Spooner Lake is the headwaters of the Yellow River, but was muddy before a dam was put in. Also the Namakogon is a bigger river than the Yellow. So it must have been easier to paddle up there and then walk about 6 miles down to Spooner Lake. I hope I have most of the facts right, I have a copy of the journal at home. Being from Spooner originally I find this fascinating, and will be going to the Rendezvous at the site of the Yellow River forts. Curot worked for the XY compnay who built their trading post right next to the NW fort. Currently the site has been rebuilt after finding the burnt remains underground. If anyone from the list is going up, I will probably be in the back field with a wedge tent. Look for my sign with the Blue Heron on it and stop in and say hi. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 1999 14:15:15 -0700 From: Subject: MtMan-List: razor stropping - -Lanney, As promised here's more information, in process of doing an article on shaving and equipage for the T&LR journal. Later YF&B Buck ______________________________________________________ Here's some information from Arthur Boon; STROPPING TECHNIQUE Strop only before shaving, after the edge could 'grow' for at least 24 hours, but preferably 48 hours. If you strop the edge immediately after shaving, the misaligned microserrations behave as a burr, which will break off and penetrate the leather, which will turn into sandpaper. If you honed just before stropping, clean the blade with water and soap and dry with a cloth without touching the edge; this too is to prevent small metal parts to get stuck into the strop, which can damage the edge while stropping. Keep the tang between index finger and thumb and keep those fingers stretched. Place the blade flat on the strop. In case of a hanging strop, keep it under tension continuously, because if you let it hang through, you will create a round and therefore blunt cutting edge. Pull the blade over the strop away from the cutting edge and in the direction of the back. If you strop the other way in the direction of the edge (which is the case during honing), you will cut through the strop, or you will cause knicks which will damage the razor. In the course of this stroke, take care that the complete cutting edge has touched the strop. The pressure of the knife on the strop should not exceed the weight of the knife, to prevent rounding and thus blunting the cutting edge. At the end of the stroke, keep the blade in contact with the strop, and swing the blade 180 degrees, causing it to rotate around the back; the back should keep in contact with the strop. Then do a stroke in the other direction. Repeat this about 10-60 times. Do this procedure first on the canvas (about 10 times) next on the leather. ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. ________________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:06:14 -0600 From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Arms Friends, I need help for a friend/museum director. He needs to find out: 1. What types of firearms were Spaniards using, in terms of muskets and pistols in the Spanish Borderlands (American Southwest) about 1780. Did they use primarily Spanish-made guns? I suspect, being a colonial backwater as this area was, they might have been issued surplus guns, but perhaps I'm mistaken. 2. Are there any companies making repro firearms of the ones Spaniards used at that time in that place? I know of a couple being used, like Brown Bess and Charliville (sp), but I am not sure the Spanish were buying from Britain or France, unless they were traded as contraband. TIA HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:18:17 -0500 From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal Ratcliff wrote: > > You are almost right, Snakeshot. Gauge is determined by the number of round, bore diameter LEAD balls required to weight a pound. 20 gauge = 20 round lead balls to the pound....about .62 caliber. Caliber is the diameter of the bore expressed in 1/100's of an inch. 50 caliber = .5 inch.....that is 50/100's inch or one half inch, Denise. > Lanney Ratcliff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bishnow > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 5:07 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ga vs Cal > > > Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote: > > > > > > It's the age old question. Probably been discussed here before. What's the > > > similarity between gauge and calibre? Is a 20 gauge the same as a .54? > > .58 calibre is 20 gauge. If I am wrong about this please someone > > correct me. But, guage is the measure of the number of steel balls > > that diameter that it takes to make 1 pound. 20 gauge would take > > 20 steel balls .58 dia. to make one pound. this may not be true > > any more but I read it somewhere once. > > > > Snakeshot > > I don't know what I was thinking. After I read my own post I remembered that was why I put .62 balls in my 20ga. Snakeshot ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:51:31 -0500 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Hey chickenhawk, Obviously you have an inability to differentiate between a lake, river and a stream. I won't bother the list trying to explain it to you. If you contact me off list I would be more than happy to. Tony Clark - -----Original Message----- From: kestrel@ticon.net To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 3:20 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies > >TONY!,(have I got your attention yet?) > >>Some of the posts here in northern WI where not near navigable > >>rivers or streams at all, they where situated on lakes. It was not > >>at all uncommon to have portages from 2 to 3 miles, or farther, > >>between bodies of water. > >READ THE ARCHIVES THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE(SAID?) > "some of the posts here in northern WI where not near navigable rivers or >streams at all, they were situated on lakes." >IF YOU CAN CANOE IT, IT IS NAVIGABLE. > > > Jeff Powers > A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! > "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin > 1698 > >Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:25:06 -0400 From: "Mike Haught" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic: covered wagon plans Foxfire #2 and #9 have chapters regarding building a horse drawn wagon. -mwh > >Red Hawk Wrote: > > Greetings List: > A fellow living history reenactor and friend is trying to build a covered > wagon. He has the tools, and the expertise but does not have plans or > dimensions. If any one could help us out with either dimensions, plans or > point us in the right direction we would be most appreciative. > > YMOS > Red Hawk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:51:05 EDT From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin slings and arrows from Boise. I just got back from our local rendezvous "Buckskin Bill" near Cascade, ID (about 75 miles to the north), and what do I find, insults. That's just un-neighborly! Okay, okay all joking aside, I am pretty wired! I'm not sure how other groups dole out "Mountain man names", but I received mine this last weekend.. My best friend was one of the segundos and Because of some odd mishap(s) when we were camping and hunting over the last few years, I was named "Sleeps Loudly" Y'all can do whatever you want with that. He was much kinder than he coulda' been. So instead of signing off as Grizz from now on, I'll just ZZZZZZZZZZZZ That's all for now, ymhs Sleeps loudly, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:18:27 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin WSmith4100@aol.com wrote: So instead of signing off as Grizz from now on, I'll just ZZZZZZZZZZZZ That's all for now, ymhs > Sleeps loudly, > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, Well it is easier to type! I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:16:30 -0500 From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: RE Dave Kanger post on Old Northwest Portage from Chicago Dave, Another good book is 'Chicago and the Old Northwest, 1673-1835, A stud of the evolution of the northwestern frontier, together with a history of Fort Dearborn', by Milo Milton Quaife, Ph.D, Univ. of chicago Press, 1913. Picked this up from Smokey for $US135, and it was a good deal. If you and Angela want to arm wrestle for first borrow rights, let me know. It has a lot on the thread, and is well researched and annotated. I usually let books out for a month, then start hunting. You two, let me know if you want to read this one. Bunches more books here, too. rock ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:41:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Arms Henry, Don't know if this will help, but since some of us are at La Purisima Mission here in California, I have a little bit of info for you that might help. I know that it was documented that at La Purisima in around 1823-1827 they had Brown Bess muskets (I'm not sure which model they carried, but could fine out if needed.) Also, Santa Ana's troops carried 3rd Model Brown Bess Muskets. Knowing these pieces of information, I guess you could extrapolate that in 1780, they would possible have also had surplus muskets (maybe 1st Model Brown Bess?) I will see what I can find out from the people who run La Purisima. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 05:06 PM 7/20/99 -0600, you wrote: >Friends, > >I need help for a friend/museum director. He needs to find out: > >1. What types of firearms were Spaniards using, in terms of muskets and >pistols in the Spanish Borderlands (American Southwest) about 1780. Did >they use primarily Spanish-made guns? I suspect, being a colonial >backwater as this area was, they might have been issued surplus guns, but >perhaps I'm mistaken. > >2. Are there any companies making repro firearms of the ones Spaniards used >at that time in that place? I know of a couple being used, like Brown Bess >and Charliville (sp), but I am not sure the Spanish were buying from >Britain or France, unless they were traded as contraband. > >TIA > >HBC > >**************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 >Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 >806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:25:57 -0500 From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies >Hey chickenhawk, >Obviously you have an inability to differentiate between a lake, >river and a stream. I KNOW perfectly well the Difference between a lake,stream and river. i ALSO KNOW THE SAME COMMON DENOMINATOR OF ALL 3,at some time of each and every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they couldn't use them on lakes and had to make 200,300 mile or longer trips over land. Your entire arguement is based on a desire to deny the use of navagable water OF ANY KIND. I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back. READ THE JOURNALS OF THE TRADERS THAT TRAVELED THIS COUNTRY,WATER TRAVEL WAS THE PREFERRED METHOD,if you can document primary sources of period traders going overland instead of by water,post it. Jeff Powers A mind like a steel trap;rusty and illegal in 37 states! Give me a woman who truly loves beer,and I will conquer the world! Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 1999 07:23:27 -0700 From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Boys, with water ways in the lower 48 in our time, (now) most of them are poor for making any distance on without having to portage every once and awhile. Have followed the L&C foot steps for a long period of time. Have done everything but the Columbia River in crossing this land, one 28 day trip from Ft. Morgan CO to Ft. deChartre IL (1260 miles on the river) showed us just how many portages are now needed. On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages of a few 100 yards to a mile or so depending on the irrigation project encountered, a problem not experienced until this century, what will the next one hold ! You mentioning "navagable", hell we have seen the Platte and the Missouri at this point in early and late summer, anymore passable water is not a given. Have some great pictures of dragging a 20 foot canoe with a 600 lb. payload in a few inches of water on both rivers. We have walked and pulled canoes for miles in trying to get to St. Louis with prime plews. > every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it > is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so > much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they The condition of modern man does very poorly at carrying large loads any distance, our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers, most folks today couldn't pickup their own body weight - no less 200-300 lb. loads as we read about. > I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk > at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back. I can completely understand what both of you are saying and really don't know how to have you two settle your points of view, other than maybe just moving on to another subject. Take care YF&B Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:57:35 -0500 From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies well said, buck. Long John - -----Original Message----- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 9:23 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies >Boys, with water ways in the lower 48 in our time, (now) most of them are poor for making any distance on without having to portage every once and awhile. > >Have followed the L&C foot steps for a long period of time. Have done everything but the Columbia River in crossing this land, one 28 day trip from Ft. Morgan CO to Ft. deChartre IL (1260 miles on the river) showed us just how many portages are now needed. On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages of a few 100 yards to a mile or so depending on the irrigation project encountered, a problem not experienced until this century, what will the next one hold ! > >You mentioning "navagable", hell we have seen the Platte and the Missouri at this point in early and late summer, anymore passable water is not a given. Have some great pictures of dragging a 20 foot canoe with a 600 lb. payload in a few inches of water on both rivers. We have walked and pulled canoes for miles in trying to get to St. Louis with prime plews. > >> every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it >> is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so >> much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they > >The condition of modern man does very poorly at carrying large loads any distance, our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers, most folks today couldn't pickup their own body weight - no less 200-300 lb. loads as we read about. > >> I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk >> at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back. > >I can completely understand what both of you are saying and really don't know how to have you two settle your points of view, other than maybe just moving on to another subject. > >Take care >YF&B >Buck Conner >AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 1999 08:45:14 -0700 From: Subject: MtMan-List: "navagable" water ways Left out something: On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages "PER DAY". sorry for missing that. Buck > On Wed, 21 July 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Boys, with water ways in the lower 48 in our time, (now) most of them are poor for making any distance on without having to portage every once and awhile. > > Have followed the L&C foot steps for a long period of time. Have done everything but the Columbia River in crossing this land, one 28 day trip from Ft. Morgan CO to Ft. deChartre IL (1260 miles on the river) showed us just how many portages are now needed. On the Platte alone one can figure at least one to two portages of a few 100 yards to a mile or so depending on the irrigation project encountered, a problem not experienced until this century, what will the next one hold ! > > You mentioning "navagable", hell we have seen the Platte and the Missouri at this point in early and late summer, anymore passable water is not a given. Have some great pictures of dragging a 20 foot canoe with a 600 lb. payload in a few inches of water on both rivers. We have walked and pulled canoes for miles in trying to get to St. Louis with prime plews. > > > every year you can navigate all 3 of them with a canoe. If its navagable it > > is a useful route. Tell me this,why did the trading companies waste so > > much money on large trade canoes to get from Quebec to Grand Portage if they > > The condition of modern man does very poorly at carrying large loads any distance, our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers, most folks today couldn't pickup their own body weight - no less 200-300 lb. loads as we read about. > > > I may have to find my way to northern WI and see just how far you can walk > > at a fast pace with two ninety pound packs on your back. > > I can completely understand what both of you are saying and really don't know how to have you two settle your points of view, other than maybe just moving on to another subject. > > Take care > YF&B > Buck Conner > AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:56:17 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies > Could you give the complete info on this book so I can find a copy? It > sounds like it could be quite interesting. Angela, Good correlations....thanks. Often what is unwritten in a journal leaves us to wonder, but it may have just been omitted. For instance, the guns...it was specifically mentioned that the voyageurs carried no firearms and the chief trader carried a Manton shotgun, but I think there were others traveling with the group who may have had guns. Perhaps, guides or interpreters who were part of the company but not specifically mentioned. I'm going from memory....I should have taken notes until I can purchase a copy for myself, but he talked of the coming into the trading posts. They stopped a ways away, cleaned up, and put on their finest clothes. A specific description of the voyageur's finest was included. They also hung flags and various trade goods and clothes from the sail masts. Then they arrived at the post with much flair and excitement, volleys from shore, etc. They left the same way, and I think he said that the voyageurs then stripped down to their working clothes. I got the impression they wore a shirt and some baggy, loose knee trousers rather than breechclouts. If you go to http://bibliofind.com and enter gurdon saltonstall hubbard into the key word search, you will come up with both his autobiography and the book called "SwiftWalker." Swiftwalker is an expanded version of his autobiography supplemented with additional information from his personal papers and other local history sources. The autobiography is just a narrative of his time as a clerk and trader in Chicago. Both books are out of print. Prices ranged from $7.50 and up. Both are good additions to one's library. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:26:48 EDT From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 With all you getting upset over this bill, just know this is just one of many that have come this way. The one on a national front that is fighting these is the National Trappers Assn. If this really upsets you and you really enjoy reliving the era that help discover this country, then I simply ask, Are you a member of the National Trappers Assn. and if not Why? I'm a life member myself, I don't walk both sides. You either help save our heritage or you help it to die. There's no in-between. TrapRJoe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:58:47 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE Dave Kanger post on Old Northwest Portage from Chicago Mike Rock writes: > If you and Angela want to arm wrestle for first borrow rights, let me know. It > has a lot on the thread, and is well researched and annotated. I > usually let books out for a month, then start hunting. You two, let me > know if you want to read this one. Mike, A very kind offer which I may take you up on this winter. Angela can have first dibs if she wants to read it now. I have some guns I need to get finished between now and Fall, and I work on them most evenings. I read the Hubbard books cause Deb got them on interlibrary loan and they were a quick read. Speaking of books.....I just added a few more for sale to my website, mostly dealing with the Plains and Overland eras. http://oldfoxtraders.com Then products/misc/books. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:47:31 EDT From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Just got back from the Kit Carson musuem in Taos, N.M. I have always heard there were no women at rendezvous, but they had a list of Kit's travels even showing where he had left his child. The list as writen would have you believe that his first and second wife traveled with him on his trap lines and to rendezvous. How about it? TrapRJoe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:00:51 EDT From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous In a message dated 7/21/1999 12:53:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, TrapRJoe@aol.com writes: > The list as writen would have you > believe that his first and second wife traveled with him on his trap lines > and to rendezvous. would that be the same as taking a sandwich to a banquet? Barn. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:01:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Don't trap and not a member of the NTA, but I did write my senators and asked them not only to vote against it but to come and attend the next rendezvous down here in Ga. in Oct. and relive a part of the Fur Trade era. The rep. wrote me a very nice letter back and thanked me. The dem. did nothing. At 02:26 PM 7/21/99 EDT, you wrote: >With all you getting upset over this bill, just know this is just one of many >that have come this way. The one on a national front that is fighting these >is the National Trappers Assn. If this really upsets you and you really >enjoy reliving the era that help discover this country, then I simply ask, >Are you a member of the National Trappers Assn. and if not Why? I'm a life >member myself, I don't walk both sides. You either help save our heritage or >you help it to die. There's no in-between. > > > TrapRJoe > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:49:38 -0500 From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Carson married Josepha Jaramillo in February 1843, which was after the last rendezvous. Of course there were plenty native American women at some of the rendezvous. In his autobiography, Carson doesn't say anything about his two native American wives and his children from them. Back then, having a native wife was not socially acceptable to some. Indeed, when I first visited the Carson museum about 12 years ago, there was no mention of these other wives. When I asked a matronly museum volunteer about that, she coyly implied that they were'nt really wives. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner - -----Original Message----- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 2:52 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous >Just got back from the Kit Carson musuem in Taos, N.M. I have always heard >there were no women at rendezvous, but they had a list of Kit's travels even >showing where he had left his child. The list as writen would have you >believe that his first and second wife traveled with him on his trap lines >and to rendezvous. > >How about it? > >TrapRJoe > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:22:24 -0500 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies - -----Original Message----- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 9:24 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Buck, Sorry to put you and the rest of the good folks on the list through our ... faaailure...tocommunicate. I 've read enough first hand accounts to want to do more than talk about the water routes these early traders used. I to have traveled literally thousands of miles over the very routes they used. Talk about dragging canoes through shallow water,I know what thats like!, my canoe can carry 1100# never had it quite that heavy, but close on a few trips, heading down a river was always a real adventure (going up was a pain in the arse). Sometimes you never knew what you where going to encounter. Some of my most memorable trips where on Superior itself. Beautiful country but very unforgiving to those who aren't careful and prepared. Sometimes that isn't enough. The main point I was trying to make to Kestrel took me a few years of traveling these water routes to discover, and it's the simple fact that the water route with the fewest portages does not make nessacarily the best route. Example: There was an American Fur Company post on lake Le Vieux Desert to the north of me. This was an ideal location for a post (the closest town is called Watersmeet, they really do here) because 2 miles to the north the Ontanogan River flowed into Superior,The Wisconsin River flowed out of the lake it being its headwaters, to the east was the Brule R which flowed into the Menominee which then went to Lake Michigan. For laughs I decided to try to find the routes the traders took from La Vieux Desert to Lake Superior.Logic told me it was the Ontanogan which was only a 60 mile trip with no portages in high water. I was wrong. The routes that where primarily used where MOSTLY portages. One of the routes I eventually found on an original map and it started off with a portage which had 120 "pauses"! I'm not sure how far a pause is, but it was a looong way to portage. Why did they choose routes that had so many portages? I believe it may have been because many times they did not have extremely large loads to transport, after all we aren't talking about the Athabascan country. Compared to that these posts in WI where relatively close to the Forts that resupplyed them, maybe they where supplied several times a season. I also think other factors as simple as the bugs being bad(or other very mundane reasons) effected the use of certain routes.If EVERY factor was equal obviously the quickest route that required the least amount of work was used, but until a person attempts to follow in the footsteps of these early travelers they have NO idea the factors that are involved. Even after reading about it. Like the remark you made about the condition of modern man, "our life styles have made us take a back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers" that was well said but I have lots of fun and plenty of great memories trying to emulate them as I am sure you also do! Take care, Tony Clark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:16:24 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > Just got back from the Kit Carson musuem in Taos, N.M. I have always heard > there were no women at rendezvous, TrapRJoe, Who the hell you been talk'in to boy? No women at Rendezvous? Most consarnded thing I ever heard of. Of course there were women at rendezvous, hundreds of them and that's a fact. Now if'n your meaning white women, now that's another story. There were of course hundreds of indian and half-breed women (french/indian or metis from the Lakes and Canada areas along with the indigenous indian women of the tribes friendly to the Trapping Companies and their employees. As to white women, I believe that Narsisa Whitman and perhaps a couple other missionary wives were the first white women to be reported at rendezvous. I don't remember the particular year but it was 1837 or later when they came through with their husbands on the way to minister to the Nez Perce in particular. This is all pretty general info and I am sure there are those who can elaborate but yup, there were lots of women at rendezvous. I remain........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:25:23 EDT From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous White, women, missionaries in the mid-1830s. Carp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:54:17 -0400 From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Good point... pls send me the URL for them... Addison - -----Original Message----- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 2:31 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 >With all you getting upset over this bill, just know this is just one of many >that have come this way. The one on a national front that is fighting these >is the National Trappers Assn. If this really upsets you and you really >enjoy reliving the era that help discover this country, then I simply ask, >Are you a member of the National Trappers Assn. and if not Why? I'm a life >member myself, I don't walk both sides. You either help save our heritage or >you help it to die. There's no in-between. > > > TrapRJoe > ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #332 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.