From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #358 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, August 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 358 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes -       Re: MtMan-List: Guidelines & Standards -       Re: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking ! -       Re: MtMan-List: Brief Comments -       Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes -       Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes -       Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes -       MtMan-List: Klamath -       Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger's Hawken rifle -       Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes -       Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes -       Re: MtMan-List: Brief Comments -       Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes -       Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes -       MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling -       Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling -       Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling -       Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling -       MtMan-List: Klamath -       MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Klamath -       Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:26:00 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes Dennis, I have a old clay pipe that I picked up at a antique store. It is almost exactly like the ones you see today that use a reed stem, except it is salt glazed. I have never seen one like it for sale new. Do you have any ideas about how old it might be ? Or how new it might be ? Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Miles To: Revlist@onelist.com ; hist_text@lists.xmission.com ; History@landlords.com Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 2:29 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Clay pipes > > > > >> Hey all you "tobacco drinkers" If you smoke a clay pipe, I have the >> place for you. >> www.bytor.com/pipes/pipes.htm "Olde World Fine Clays", Stephen Bray's >> place. I just received my new clay from him.. These are as different from >> the "mass produced" clays that you see and buy as the difference between a >> Gussler Gun and a "K-Mart special" (nothing against K-Mart >> specials, so doon start with me) These pipes are individually hand >> made, and are the EXACT same as the originals..In material and method..And >> the smoke is...well..WOW!!!!! I can't even make a comparison between the >> "store bought" and his... There is none. >> I am about to drop a check in the mail for another one of his "Dutch" >> style pipes, as a "in case" backup.. Oh yeah, the prices are doggone >> good... >> Well, that was my plug of the day.. >> D > >______________________________ >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:27:26 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Guidelines & Standards Angela, The usual rules for clothing and gear are, pre 1840, which means 1750's to 1840. At the club doins, if a person is new to the hobby, then allowances will be made especially along the lines of footwear. As long as the guy doesn't show up in blue jeans and sneakers. If a person is making a good faith effort to be dressed correctly then allowances will be made. Camp gear is generally of the period or made of natural materials and of a primitive style. Such things as Coleman stoves and kerosene lanterns are taboo. Oil lamps are ok. Many modern items such as coolers and such are ok as long as they are covered and kept out of sight. There are lots of things at modern rendezvous that were not taken to the mountains, such as chairs, tables, and many other things. Cookware should be cast-iron or tinware, although it is not period, blue enamelware is accepted. No stainless steel. As far as how these guidelines are enforced, it varies from one doins to the next. Generally, there is a committee appointed by the Booshway to handle any discrepancies. Down here there are called " Dog Soldiers " . If some thing is marginally not right they will usually let it go, but if it is way out of bounds then they will ask the guilty party to cover it up, or remove it from camp. If they refuse then they are asked to leave . If they refuse to do that then things can get real ugly, but that almost never happens. Most folks are there to have a good time and the last thing they want to do is cause a problem. Besides, most infractions are caused from not knowing what is period and what isn't, and most folks are there to learn anyway. When my wife, kids, and I were getting started, many years ago we had very problems. Occasionally someone would point out something that wasn't right but they would always do it in friendly and constructive manner, and that is the way it should be handled. The most important thing for new folks to do is ask questions. Ask a Buckskinner what time it is and he will tell you how to build a watch. I hope this helps. Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Angela Gottfred To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 7:06 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Guidelines & Standards > "larry pendleton" wrote: >>Ok guys, let's get some serious discussion going. >Well, here's one I've been wondering about for quite a while-- maybe some of >you folks can enlighten a poor Canadian. (Especially since I seem to have >missed a post, "Rondee", which seems to have touched on the subject.) Do the >major rendezvous down there have guidelines for dress & camp? Or does >anything go? What are the usual guidelines? How are the guidelines enforced? >And what are your experiences, good & bad, with guidelines? > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:28:01 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking ! John, Chance is right on. Good quality hand forged spurs generally go for $200 to $400 or more. Another source would be Wayne Higgins in Denton, TX. He is making some really fine quality spurs, and he can make anything you might want. { He's one of the good guys. ] Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: John C. Funk, Jr. To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 6:55 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking ! >Larry, >Was fortunate to see an original pair in a private collection in Montana. >They were cast steel on cards. Drew a picture and may well try and recreate >them. Shoulden't be too difficult. A lot of hand metal work but that, Ok. >Wonder what one could sell a pair for if a cotage industry was >started.....hint...hint. >John Funk > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: larry pendleton >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 7:59 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking ! > > >> John, >> I'm not a horseback type person, [ I figure them critters come in this >> world looking for a way out ] but I once read that spurs were sold at the >> rendezvous. They were on cards like dimestore stuff, and they were not >sold >> in pairs. Can't remember where I read that so don't take it to the bank >> just yet. Others will have more info than I do. >> Pendleton >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John C. Funk, Jr. >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com ; mountain >> lists ; amm lists >> Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 5:14 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking ! >> >> >> >Good idea, Larry............ >> >OK horse folk, I need some info. >> >1. Anyone got documented designs of "spurs" used by the 'old ones'? We >> >know they were mounted, for the most part, some with Spanish rigging and >> >therefore probably with Spanish tack. Many came from the east >> .........what >> >design spurs would those folks have used? Rev. War designs, typical >> English >> >stuff.....what? >> >2. Would spurs have been hand made by the brigade blacksmith? >Therefore,, >> >possibly, a free style design depending upon the users desires? >> > Give me all you've got.... >> >John Funk >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: larry pendleton >> >To: mountain lists ; amm lists >> > >> >Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 6:28 PM >> >Subject: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking ! >> > >> > >> >> Ok guys, let's get some serious discussion going. It's been dead on >here >> >> way too long. Ya'll don't want to wait till Dennis, Lanney, and I have >> to >> >> start something. >> >> Pendleton >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 1999 16:58:29 -0700 From: turtle@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brief Comments On Fri, 27 August 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > On Thu, 26 August 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > excellent idea and ground breaking on the Jim Baker Party > > web site. - one for Michigan region in the works??? - > ________________________________________ > Jon, > We would like to see in time as many of the AMM State or Territories, put web sites of their regions on the internet. I know that some may disagree, but who else would do such an undertaking. > > The value of this would be excellent research material for those in the area, plus give a list of people to contact with questions on subjects that pertain to the region. That was one of the thinkings when we started the Jim Baker Party site, not bragging or any of that baloney, just trying to give old and new folks some good information, isn't this what it's all about ! > > As far as anyone's expertise, we all start from square one, and believe me we all make big time mistakes, whether its in doing the research, your mind-set, or equipage. In all the years I've been doing this I have made some classic blunders, and have had some damn neat garage sales unloading wrong equipage for my personal time frame. > > This sport no matter what we call it; trekking, living history, reenactments, buckskinning - whatever, is a learning experience that we can all learn from and share our thoughts about. > > These new web site's that are being worked on by some of the parties are the children of Dean Rudy's page (now I'm not calling him a Mother, I don't think). But the work on his pages are the master of buckingskinning/mountainman material. The Baker site and new ones coming up will be more area coverage for their regions. In NO way are we trying to change direction or do anything other than provide more information about the people that came, stayed, or passed through each region. Hope that's clear. > > One other thing that's neat, if your going to an event out of your area, what a neat resource to see who and when or what happened in the place being visited, or if moving to a new area - now you have contacts. This is a very valuable tool at everyone's finger tips, no matter whether your a researcher, history buff or just interested in an area. > > I can't say enough about "Powder-To-Burn" he has knocked himself out with this party project, plus has done a wonderful job for being new to the web builder title. Thanks Bill. > > I had better stop bending your ears and good luck on those web sites guys. > > > Later, > Buck Conner Hey Buck, Thanks for the clear position and reasoning you have told us and for such a project that you guys have taken on, we all can benefit from you and other's labor in these party web sites. Thank you members of the Baker Party, Dean Rudy and others to come; without these resources, research would be very slow in these areas. Take care - we leave as friends, Lee Boyer Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec. State College, Pennsylvania ___________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 1999 17:06:07 -0700 From: turtle@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes > On Fri, 27 August 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: > Hey all you "tobacco drinkers" If you smoke a clay pipe, I have the > > place for you. > > www.bytor.com/pipes/pipes.htm "Olde World Fine Clays", Stephen Bray's > > place. I just received my new clay from him.. These are as different from > > the "mass produced" clays that you see and buy as the difference between a > > Gussler Gun and a "K-Mart special" > > good... > > Well, that was my plug of the day.. > > D Dennis, Next time you talk to Buck, ask him about the originals he has from Bent's and Bridger. They're broken, but pretty close to being complete (small pieces missing and cracks), maybe he could scan them for us to see. I believe he was given them by Charley Hanson many years ago, use to have them on display in his store. I tried to trade for one and that was like asking for his first born, not a pretty site. You know how close him and Charley where. Take care - we leave as friends, Lee Boyer Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec. State College, Pennsylvania ___________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:56:57 -0400 From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes Well, Buck?? D turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > On Fri, 27 August 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: > > Hey all you "tobacco drinkers" If you smoke a clay pipe, I have the > > > place for you. > > > www.bytor.com/pipes/pipes.htm "Olde World Fine Clays", Stephen Bray's > > > place. I just received my new clay from him.. These are as different from > > > the "mass produced" clays that you see and buy as the difference between a > > > Gussler Gun and a "K-Mart special" > > > good... > > > Well, that was my plug of the day.. > > > D > > Dennis, > Next time you talk to Buck, ask him about the originals he has from Bent's and Bridger. They're broken, but pretty close to being complete (small pieces missing and cracks), maybe he could scan them for us to see. I believe he was given them by Charley Hanson many years ago, use to have them on display in his store. > I tried to trade for one and that was like asking for his first born, not a pretty site. You know how close him and Charley where. > > Take care - we leave as friends, > Lee Boyer > Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec. > State College, Pennsylvania > ___________________________ > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:58:35 -0400 From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes I don't know if they sell new or not, I haven't seen any. I have a broken one like that I found in the field near an 1812 site... Dunno... D larry pendleton wrote: > Dennis, > I have a old clay pipe that I picked up at a antique store. It is almost > exactly like the ones you see today that use a reed stem, except it is salt > glazed. I have never seen one like it for sale new. Do you have any ideas > about how old it might be ? Or how new it might be ? > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Miles > To: Revlist@onelist.com ; hist_text@lists.xmission.com > ; History@landlords.com > > Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 2:29 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Clay pipes > > > > > > > > > > >> Hey all you "tobacco drinkers" If you smoke a clay pipe, I have the > >> place for you. > >> www.bytor.com/pipes/pipes.htm "Olde World Fine Clays", Stephen Bray's > >> place. I just received my new clay from him.. These are as different from > >> the "mass produced" clays that you see and buy as the difference between > a > >> Gussler Gun and a "K-Mart special" (nothing against K-Mart > >> specials, so doon start with me) These pipes are individually hand > >> made, and are the EXACT same as the originals..In material and > method..And > >> the smoke is...well..WOW!!!!! I can't even make a comparison between the > >> "store bought" and his... There is none. > >> I am about to drop a check in the mail for another one of his "Dutch" > >> style pipes, as a "in case" backup.. Oh yeah, the prices are doggone > >> good... > >> Well, that was my plug of the day.. > >> D > > > >______________________________ > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > > > > > > > - -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:26:34 -0400 (EDT) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Klamath Dave: per Atlas of The North American Indian by Carl Waldman, p.249: says Klamath was "tribal name: probably from Chinook "TLAMATL." Also per Dictionary of The American Indian by John Stoutenburgh, Jr., p.200 has a term KLUMAITUMSH and says "a name given by Lewis and Clark in 1805 to a tribe who formerly lived in the state of Washington near Grays Harbor." Unfortunately, neither states what the word actually meant in translation. Need help from the camp or list. - ----------------------------------------------------- The American Indian: the only surviving descendents of Ephraim and Manasseh the sons of Joseph - son of Jacob [Israel] - son of Isaac - son of Abraham. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:56:10 -0600 From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger's Hawken rifle At 10:14 PM 8/26/99 -0700, you wrote: >Sometime in the 1960's, an issue of Muzzle Blasts ran an article entitled, >"Jim Bridger's Rifle". It featured photos and a detailed description of a >Hawken rifle that had been carried by Jim Bridger. It seems to me that the >article stated the rifle was on display somewhere in Montana. Does anyone >know where this Hawken might be located? I no longer have the issue of MB >nor even remember what was on the cover. Incidentally, this is NOT the >Bridger rifle that is located in the Museum of the Mountain Man in >Pinedale,WY. This is a typical, plain, iron mounted Hawken half-stock >rifle. > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > The Bridger Hawken is at the state historical museum in Helena, MT. Some folks on this list have a very "intimate" knowledge of that wonderful piece. Check the list achives. Allen Hall > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:40:15 EDT From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes Just FYI, we date the clay pipes by the size of the aperture (Apature?) of the stem:) It's a wonder the folks at Jamestown didn't keel over from smoke inhalation, as their pipestem aperture was so large. When the tobacco tar built up, they simply bit off the end of the stem, and continued smoking the pipe. Women and children smoked as well as the men - tobacco was used to stave off hunger, and also for indigestion (go figure!) You can still pick them up off the ground in the Chesapeake - with teeth marks in them! :) Bet there are plenty left from the Mountain Men as well ! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:42:25 EDT From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes PS - I have several pipe stems and a few bowls collected from the vicinity of plantations in the Chesapeake...I didn't know they were worth anything, as they are so ubiquitous! ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 1999 07:30:33 -0700 From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brief Comments > > > On Thu, 26 August 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > > excellent idea and ground breaking on the Jim Baker Party > > > web site. - one for Michigan region in the works??? - > > One other thing that's neat, if your going to an event out of your area, what a neat resource to see who and when or what happened in the place being visited, or if moving to a new area - now you have contacts. This is a very valuable tool at everyone's finger tips, no matter whether your a researcher, history buff or just interested in an area. > > Later, > > Buck Conner > Thank you members of the Baker Party, Dean Rudy and others to come; without these resources, research would be very slow in these areas. > Take care - we leave as friends, > Lee Boyer This idea would work better than having everyone try and do something, wouldn't that be a mess going through that material. In the past organized groups put together better projects than a half dozen doubling up on most subjects or events, whether is source material, a shoot, trek or an event. "May the spirit be with you" D.L. Smith Livingston, MO. Historical Coordinator - Missouri ___________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:00:53 -0400 From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:26:00 -0700 "larry pendleton" writes: >Dennis, > I have a old clay pipe that I picked up at a antique store. It is >almost >exactly like the ones you see today that use a reed stem, except it is >salt >glazed. I have never seen one like it for sale new. Do you have any >ideas >about how old it might be ? Or how new it might be ? >Pendleton ther usto be a guy in the early 70's at friendship that sold clay pipes(ORIGINAL) he found a old boat on the ohio river that had sunk and it was loaded with them and he wrote a book on his research---dont remember the name of it but saw it and thumbed thru it at friendship one year and also bought a couple of them---still have them in my treasure trove of boxes somewhere---he quit selling them about 1980 when he sold them out---but his book is still out there. I saw a copy in the library in st louis once so it's still there---probably listed under research or collectables---one of the st louis guys might be able to find it and xerox the information---it dates clay pipes back to pre revolutionary war up to late 1800 by the styles and markings and materials made from---was a good reference book--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:56:16 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes Hawk, Thanks for info ! If you come across the title of the book, please let me know. I know the pipe is not worth much , but I am just curious as to the age of it. Thanks Again, Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Pierce To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 10:28 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clay pipes > >On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:26:00 -0700 "larry pendleton" >writes: >>Dennis, >> I have a old clay pipe that I picked up at a antique store. It is >>almost >>exactly like the ones you see today that use a reed stem, except it is >>salt >>glazed. I have never seen one like it for sale new. Do you have any >>ideas >>about how old it might be ? Or how new it might be ? >>Pendleton > >ther usto be a guy in the early 70's at friendship that sold clay >pipes(ORIGINAL) he found a old boat on the ohio river that had sunk and >it was loaded with them and he wrote a book on his research---dont >remember the name of it but saw it and thumbed thru it at friendship one >year and also bought a couple of them---still have them in my treasure >trove of boxes somewhere---he quit selling them about 1980 when he sold >them out---but his book is still out there. I saw a copy in the library >in st louis once so it's still there---probably listed under research or >collectables---one of the st louis guys might be able to find it and >xerox the information---it dates clay pipes back to pre revolutionary war >up to late 1800 by the styles and markings and materials made from---was >a good reference book--- >YMHOSANT > =+= > "Hawk" >Michael Pierce >854 Glenfield Dr. >Palm Harbor, florida 34684 >1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:54:20 -0600 From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling Hello the list, For you tipi dwellers out there I have a question. In Laubins book they recommend leaving the cover a few inches off the ground for more airflow. In BOB V B Walter says to leave the cover tight to the ground and use the door for air or roll up a small area of the cover to provide more air when needed. I was wondering what have you found to work the best? Since I'm so busy farming in summer, my new tipi will be used more in late fall, winter and early spring. Thanks, Ron aka Lonewolf cstmzd@ida.net www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html "What part of: 'Thou Shalt not...' didn't you understand"? GOD ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:09:43 -0400 From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling Ron, My wife and I lived in a 26' Blackfoot lodge for a year. We ALWAYS had the cove from a few inches to a couple of feet from the ground. Depending on the temp. and weather. Good luck, they are a GREAT house, when you figger them out Regards Dennis Ron Chamberlain wrote: > Hello the list, > > For you tipi dwellers out there I have a question. In Laubins book they > recommend leaving the cover a few inches off the ground for more airflow. > > In BOB V B Walter says to leave the cover tight to the ground and use the > door for air or roll up a small area of the cover to provide more air when > needed. > > I was wondering what have you found to work the best? > > Since I'm so busy farming in summer, my new tipi will be used more in late > fall, winter and early spring. > > Thanks, > Ron > aka Lonewolf > > cstmzd@ida.net > www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html > > "What part of: 'Thou Shalt not...' didn't you understand"? > > GOD - -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:28:50 +0000 From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling Ron Chamberlain wrote: > I was wondering what have you found to work the best? Ron, Don't know what others experience has been but when I was using a teepee a number of years back (since gone to a wedge though I still have the lodge) I remember staking it down as close as it would go. It never was completely tight to the ground because the tie ropes started up the sides a few inches and the stakes were out away from the bottom edge a few inches causing the bottom to pull out just a smidgen. I am not too sure where The Laubens got their information since a look at the evidence showing how the indians originally did it don't support their suggested methods. If you do any serious looking out west in indian country you will eventually come across former indian camp areas with distinct circles of stones the size of the base of indian teepee's. Those stones were there to hold down the bottom of the lodge in-leu of using stakes. Using those stones around the edge ( and there are enough stones to place one very close to the next) would effectively close off the bottom of the lodge. Then too, liners were reported to have been stuffed with grasses and such to provide some insulation value (although I don't know if that is actually true or not). Be that as it may, I "think" that lodges were originally set up with the cover tight to the ground. Perhaps there is other evidence to suggest otherwise but that is what I believe. As an additional point to consider, the Sami of Northern Finland use the same type of lodge (with very minor differences) as the American Indian. They live in a very cold climate and fasten their lodges down tight to the ground as I understand it. You should try both ways. Tight and with a gap. Just remember to not be in so much a hurry to set up that you do not take into consideration how the winds or even daily breezes blow at your camp and set up the lodge with it's back to the wind. Learn to regulate the flaps for best draw and do leave an air space under or near the door. If smoke in the lodge is a bother, probably the best fix is to get and use an ozane, which is a half moon shaped piece made of pie shaped section's of canvas sewn to fit horizontally inside the lodge at the top of the liner and come out over the living area about half way to the door. Nothing will do more to make your lodge comfortable and smoke free. Tie the apex of the ozane up towards the top of the door to give it a slope back towards the back of the lodge and put it's flaps over the liner rope and outside the liner so any water will drain to the back and down the outside of the liner. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask. I hope this was of help, I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:22:36 -0500 From: Jerry Williams Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling Ron, When my friends and I set up during warm weather we leave the cover several inches off the ground. In cold weather, we drop it down but still leave it off of the ground. Even in the cold weather you need a proper draft to help with the heat. Jerry Ron Chamberlain wrote: > Hello the list, > > For you tipi dwellers out there I have a question. In Laubins book they > recommend leaving the cover a few inches off the ground for more airflow. > > In BOB V B Walter says to leave the cover tight to the ground and use the > door for air or roll up a small area of the cover to provide more air when > needed. > > I was wondering what have you found to work the best? > > Since I'm so busy farming in summer, my new tipi will be used more in late > fall, winter and early spring. > > Thanks, > Ron > aka Lonewolf > > cstmzd@ida.net > www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html > > "What part of: 'Thou Shalt not...' didn't you understand"? > > GOD ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:57:41 -0400 (EDT) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Klamath Dave: Good link below - lists an author and dictionary of the klamath language at: http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/umpqua/heritage/na_names.html - ----------------------------------------------------- The American Indian: the only surviving descendents of Ephraim and Manasseh the sons of Joseph - son of Jacob [Israel] - son of Isaac - son of Abraham. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:05:10 -0400 (EDT) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Klamath Dave: A search of Dean's site for "klamath" came up with the following: From Oregon Historical Quarterly, 1910 THE PETER SKENE OGDEN JOURNALS A suggestion, not yet a conclusion, as to this name Klamath may be made here. It is well established that many of the geographical and tribal names of the Oregon Country come from the trappers and traders of the various Fur Companies: some incident or some local condition would suggest the name, as "Nez Perces" or "Malheur." The conditions in the Klamath region suggest the name given in this journal, Clammitte, from the French CLAIR-METIS meaning a light mist or cloud. And it is quite as easy to suppose that the Indians in later years attempted to copy this name from the trappers as the reverse. Fremont adopted TLAMATH as the more correct rendition of the Indian. - --------------------------------------------------------- The American Indian: the only surviving descendents of Ephraim and Manasseh the sons of Joseph - son of Jacob [Israel]. They are all the Tribe of Joseph, no matter what Sub-Tribe they may be called. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:15:55 -0400 From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:54:20 -0600 "Ron Chamberlain" writes: >Hello the list, > >For you tipi dwellers out there I have a question. In Laubins book >they >recommend leaving the cover a few inches off the ground for more >airflow. > >In BOB V B Walter says to leave the cover tight to the ground and use >the >door for air or roll up a small area of the cover to provide more air >when >needed. > >I was wondering what have you found to work the best? > >Since I'm so busy farming in summer, my new tipi will be used more in >late >fall, winter and early spring. > >Thanks, >Ron Lonewolf lone wolf--- did you get a inner dew cloth with your tee pee---if you didnt you are going to need one--the reason that you rase the teepee skin off the ground is so that you can have a fire inside the teepee and have it draw like a smoke stack---the dew cloth goes to the ground and leaves a space for air to flow up this causes the smoke inside the teepee to go up and out and not hang in the inside of the teepee---in the summer months you lift one edge of the teepee up during the day and fold back the dew cloth that is attached to the poles on the inside of the teepee for ventilation---gets real warm inside if you dont---a teepee is a lot warmer than the average tent because of the dew cloth---have been out in snow storms and just had a small fire inside and was very comfortable when i was hunting---them were shining times---the dew cloth acts as a heat barrier in the wintertime and comes all the way to the ground---the outer skin is about 2 to 4 in off the ground and if it rains it dripps into a drain channel that you dig around the outside of the teepee with a runoff channel---and no water runs into the teepee---still have the skin to a 12 ft teepee in the garage in st louis but the poles died several years ago---kep them hanging in a tree in the back yard for several years. dont make the mistake of building a fire on the inside of the tee pee without the inner dewcloth---going to eat a bunch of smoke of you do---I used steel pins at each pole to hold the dewcloth down to the ground in bad weather---a lot of the guys use tyes but the pins worked better for me---still used the ties for the top of the dew cloth to the poles---also be sure to mark your poles especially the initial set up poles and mark the tye point once it is established----my tye rope had a knot in it to use to measure the pole distance apart that i used when i was setting up---so that the tyes for the dew cloth would be in the right place---I like the 3 pole setup best---2 main poles and a raising poleI alsu mark my skin lifting pole---you also need to mark the flap poles also I color coded them with a design at the bottom so that I could easily pick them out---the most important poles to mark is the 2 for setup with the lifting pole and then the smole flap poles the rest are just leaners so they are not as important--- we hunted out of a teepee for several yeras and it was always very comfortable---more than a baker or a whalen leanto and a hell of a lot warmer---only problem is transporting the poles--- ---and lots of room - --a 12 or 14 ft will sleep 4 people easily and still have room its real surprising how a very small fire will keep them warm in real cold weather---if put up correctly with the skin 2 to 4 in above the ground and have the dew cloth and rain is also not a problem if you trench and make a drain off (IMPORTANT) the dew cloth does wonders with the heat and warmth factor--- we have camped in one down to 0 Degrees and were not uncomfortable in them. hope that is the information that you are seeking---you can fold back the dew cloth and raise the sides in the summer months if you are not in a area with a lot of flying buggers--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. 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