From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #438 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, December 30 1999 Volume 01 : Number 438 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth -       MtMan-List: off topic -       Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... -       Re: MtMan-List: gun control -       Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... -       Re: MtMan-List: off topic -       Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth -       MtMan-List: Personal Safety & Security [OFF TOPIC] -       Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... -       Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... -       Re: MtMan-List: off topic -       Re: MtMan-List: gun control -       Re: MtMan-List: gun control -       Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... -       Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... -       Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... -       Re: MtMan-List: gun control -       MtMan-List: Loading blocks -       Re: MtMan-List: Loading blocks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:18:11 -0800 From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth DON"T DO IT (CHAR) IN THE HOUSE............ I did the first time, on the stove....exhaust fan going full tilt, etc.... wife still came unglued. It raises quite a stink. I happen to have a modern back packing stove (compressed gas fuel), it makes a wonderful char stove, out in the backyard. I found that the propane grill wasted alot of fuel to get the can hot enough to char. A small hole in the dirt, filled with briquetts would do the trick. My wood stove works well too. I have a small tin, overlapping type lid, can with a nail hole in the top. I've been using cotton webbing for char lately. Looks like oil lamp wick, only thicker, wider, etc... Makes a fairly durable char, which won't turn to coal dust in your fire making kit. I ordered mine for shoulder strap material originally. Made some scraps into char, been using it ever since. I also like to carry rotten rope, tow and 'fat wood' in my kit. Fat wood is really pitchy pine, etc...once it catches flame, it burns like a torch...good for damp weather fire making. I regularly hang short pieces of rope on fence, etc..... After a long while those pieces get sunburned, oxidized, etc... and work well in fire kit . (just make sure you aren't using rope which has been treated with fire retardent. It is good to carry a small bag full of these flammable goodies in one's bedroll ( deep in so can't get wet-no matter what) for emergency, bad weather fire making. oh yeah.....Happy New Year...hope to share a fire with each and every one of you miscreants before too long...... hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 01:44:47 -0800 From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: off topic the two disc jockeys were laughing at a news story they told this morn. "I failed to see the humor". Sat nite in Sweden a mans cabin caught fire and burnt to the ground. They later found the man about 2 miles from his cabin on his snowmobile naked and dead. Just failed to see the humor in this. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 02:17:01 -0500 (EST) From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth My wife thanks you!!! M.W http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 01:03:00 -0500 (EST) From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Thanx for the ideas Capt.! Yours Truely, Michael A.Wolfe - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 01:23:21 -0800 From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... =============== "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." =============== Capt. Lahti, That was an outstanding post. Thanks for taking the time to articulate your thoughts. I can appreciate the argument that an erosion of any right can rarely be reversed, and, the precedent established, almost certainly ensures more erosion in the future. My problem is that I don't believe the absolute right existed in the first place. I'll address a few points: >If read in the context of the age it was written in, there was no organized >militia but rather all able bodied men between a certain age were >considered members by dictate and default. (A formal militia was not >formed for several years after the Constitution was ratified.) They included the word "militia" in the 2nd Amendment as a specific reference to *something* that already existed. Yes, the "people" of a free state would be called upon to constitute that militia, and as the amendment is phrased, one can reasonably (naturally) interpret it with the emphasis on the leading clause -- "well regulated militia" - -- and that the right of the people to bear arms is in the context of that militia. >Should the able >bodied citizen of today be made to hold ready with outdated weapons of a >bygone era? Isn't it true that citizens *already* dramatically lag behind state-of-the-art military hardware. If the idea is to be on an even footing in the event of a war against an oppressive government, then by that amendment we must allow anyone who can afford it to arm themselves with any arms available on the world market (the logical extension). From your post, I see you aren't willing to go that far. >Your point about banning such things as military weapons of explosive >or mass destructive potential is well taken. It is hard to argue with >that type of restriction and even the laws that restrict ownership of >full auto weapons is not that unreasonable. If you grant *any* restriction, as it sounds you do, then you are already ceding the necessity to erode the right under discussion. Everything that follows is just mitigating the damage to that right. Perhaps we only disagree on the mitigation. >Which of the Amendments do you hold >most dear? The 1st? The 5th? Do you want your right to speak freely >abridged for the common good? I hold them all dear. And as I've said, I don't think gun control legislation to-date abridges any amendment. But it bears noting that an amendment is just that: an amendment. Several decades ago you might have posed the same question, but included Prohibition in your example (another amendment, since canceled out by yet one more amendment). At the time, some people regarded the Prohibition amendment as the most important of the bunch. >I respectfully submit to you sir that you can not have it both ways. It >is either all, or soon enough nothing. And yet, (in a quote above) you agree that something *less than all* is "not that unreasonable." David - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 07:28:10 -0600 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control - -----Original Message----- From: Allen Hall To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: December 29, 1999 10:34 PM Subject: MtMan-List: gun control >Hello the list, >First. From the Preamble of the US Constitution. "We the people of the >United States....." >>From the 1st Amendment; ....or the right of the people peaceably to >assemble..... >>From the 2nd Amendment;.... the right of the people to keep and bear arms.... >>From the 4th Amendment; ....The right of the people to be secure in their >persons.... >>From the 10th Amendment; ...or to the people. > >Why would "the people" mean different things in the second amendment, but >none of the others? The answer is obvious, the people, _means_ the >people. Good observation Allen. I am curious as to how folks think they can re-interperet these simple words and attempt to give them another meaning all together. Some also talk of "court decisions" that uphold the argument that the 2nd amendements purpose isn't to provide us individuals the right to keep and bear arms. That is a bunch of bologna to. northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:09:55 -0600 From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth As long as we're talking char, I was showing some people flint and steel firestarting with one of our club members kit, I had a piece of his char in my hand while I was showing how to strike. I felt my hand get warm, the char that was in my fist was going! I asked Dan what he used for char, he'd found some old (probably WWII) muslin cloth that a boy scout troop had for bandages and were going to throw out, he took it for patches and char. Jim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:25:29 GMT From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... >"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free >State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be >infringed." >=============== > Outstanding post, Captain Lahti, There is little I can add. However, I would like to clarify the distinction between the National Guard, and the militia. I would also like to reiterate that the Militia Act of 1792, which is still law, merely codified the traditional roll of the militia throughout history. The Militia Act of 1792 does define the militia as "all able bodied males between The ages of 17 and 65" and goes on to state that those people are REQUIRED BY LAW, current law, I might add, to provide themselves with arms and ammunition for the defense of this Nation. There were several layers of military readiness throughout formative years of this country, and beyond, into the very beginning of colonization of the "New World". First came the regular Army, raised, trained, equipped, and funded by the Crown. Next came the Provincial Troops, raised, trained, equipped, and funded by the various Provincial Assemblies for the defense of the Province. These troops could not be deployed outside the province without the express permission of the Governor and the Provincial Assemblies. Exactly as the National Guard is organized today. These troops were widely known as Provincial troops, though these Provincial military units referred to themselves by other names that distinguished them from other Provincial Troops, i.e. the Jersey Blues, the Virginia Regiment, etc. Next in order were the Independent Companies, roughly equating to the current Army Reserve. Often raised as Militia, and often required to provide their own weapons, equipment and clothing, they were placed on "establishment" as independent companies by the Governor General of the Colonies, bypassing the various Provincial Assemblies for permission to deploy those companies with the regular Army outside of the province in which they were raised. Rogers and Putnam's Rangers of the F&I period are the most notable examples of the establishment and use of these independent companies. Other Independent Companies were, raised, equipped, trained, funded, and "established" by the Governor General for specific campaigns, or for the duration of a specific conflict. On the bottom of the military hierarchy is the Militia, organized by County Lieutenants appointed by the Provincial Military Commanders, or more often raised by local "officials" to repel incursions into specific areas, or to patrol the border areas scouting for marauding savages. They were required to provide their own weapons, ammunition, clothing and equipment, and often served without pay. These were the original minutemen, ready on a minute's notice to form and repel invaders, or man the fortifications on the exposed frontier. We, traditionally, and by law, are that Militia, and by law, we are required to provide ourselves with weapons and ammunition to defend this Nation from within, as well as from without. I ask you, Mr. Woodbury, If Congress has the power to restrict ownership of firearms, does Congress also have the power to restrict the freedom of speech, press, and the right to vote? It would seem that if our elected officials have that power, they can do whatever they please without the threat of a citizens uprising to "put things aright", as it were. Now, I'm not advocating that we over throw this government, however, I do believe that the citizens of this Nation should retain the means to do so, just to keep our elected officials honest…or as honest as possible. Yes Mr. Woodbury, we do agree on several important facets of this issue, the problem arises as to where the line is drawn. I and many on this list believe the restrictions are bordering on oppressive, and will continue to become more oppressive unless we stand firm. I fear, Mr. Woodbury, that the lemmings you follow will lead you, and our freedoms into the sea of oblivion. I am, And Shall Remain… John Dearing ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:30:59 GMT From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic >the two disc jockeys were laughing at a news story they told this morn. "I >failed to see the humor". Sat nite in Sweden a mans cabin caught fire and >burnt to the ground. They later found the man about 2 miles from his cabin >on his snowmobile naked and dead. Just failed to see the humor in this. > Well, it's like I've always said, "build a man a fire and you warm him for a day, set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." Yes, I have a sick sense of humor. ;-) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:43:33 GMT From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth I've been using >cotton webbing for char lately. Looks like oil lamp wick, only thicker, >wider, etc... Makes a fairly durable char, which won't turn to coal >dust in your fire making kit. I prefer bluejean material. It's thick enough to provide a good hot coal, cheap and readily available. I recently bought a pair of girls 100% cotton jeans at a yard sale for a quarter that made more char than I will use in the next year. Tear 'em into strips 2 or 3 inches wide and and cut several strips into squares at one time, or loosely roll the strips and throw them into the char can. Tear off as much char as you need for that particular fire. Good to use when your tender is damp, or otherwise not as good as it could be. I save one part of those girls jeans for a special purpose...but I ain't tellin'.;-) J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 1999 10:03:59 -0800 From: Buck Subject: MtMan-List: Personal Safety & Security [OFF TOPIC] - ------- Start of forwarded message ------- We received this information this morning, mostly common sense that we should all remember, and practice, so consider it a reminder to be alert this weekend or any weekend, as we should anytime we're out of our normal surroundings. Thanks. Buck _________________________________________________ Subject: Y2K Weekend - Personal Safety & Security While this is a special weekend, it is really no different than any other large celebration that you or your family might participate in. Based on that premise the following offers a few ideas to take forth with you on the Y2K weekend and any other special event or celebration you may attend. Remember: The first thing to remember is that your personal safety at work, at home, at a celebration, is first and foremost your responsibility. Even if you can't control the external environment around you, you can still take steps to avoid becoming a victim. On the streets: There will be certain locations in major metropolitan areas that will draw large crowds of people celebrating the New Year. These locations will not only attract people celebrating but also those who would take advantage of large crowds to commit crimes against individuals and businesses. The crimes can range from picking a pocket to looting. So, what can you do to avoid falling prey to these individuals? Know what your community is doing about restricting on street parking near the event you plan to attend. If parking is restricted check with local parking lots to ensure they will be open to the public. Park as near as you can to the event or building you are going to. Park in well lit areas if it is dark when you arrive or when you plan to return to your car. Avoid parking near large vehicles (Vans. Etc.), or other objects which can limit your visibility. Before exiting the vehicle, know what is going on outside. Your doors should still be locked. Check your side view mirrors and do a 360 degree look around the vehicle. Trust your instincts! If you are uncomfortable do not get out, leave and find another parking place. Be aware of what you are leaving in your vehicle. Don't leave items of value in view, such as CD's, cassettes and packages you are planning to return afterChristmas. They are attractive to potential thieves and should be locked in the trunk. Once you're out of the vehicle walk confidently at a steady pace with your head up. Be alert to activity in the area. Look at individuals near you. You do not have to look them in the eye, but be able to identify them. This can be a deterrent to some potential perpetrators. Distracted or tentative pedestrians spell victim. Avoid using alleys and other more isolated routes to your destination. It may take a little longer to walk the main streets but crime is less likely to occur in these areas. When returning to your vehicle have your keys in hand. Approach the car from an angle looking underneath and around it. Before opening the door check the floor in the front and rear seat areas. Once in the car, lock the door before putting on your seat belt. Stick to main streets avoiding less traveled routes to and from home. Plan on possible delays due to impromptu street parties or unplanned street closures. Check the radio for local information prior to leaving home and frequently while traveling to your destination. If possible, have your cellular telephone with you. Plan alternate routes to your destination just in case you need them. If you determine you are being followed, don't drive home. There will more police officers on duty than usual. Look for an officer directing traffic or a patrol car, then flash your lights at them. If you cannot locate one go to the nearest police or fire station and honk your horn. If that is not possible, drive to an open gas station or other business where you can safely call the police. Don't leave your car unless you know you can get inside the building safely. Try to get the license number and description of the car following you. Again, if possible, have a cellular phone in your car to use in emergency situations. If possible, use an alternate source of transportation such as a bus or taxicab. Plan on early arrival and late departure. Check out what the hours of operation will be for businesses such as restaurants and other establishments near the event. If crowd control becomes a problem you may want to seek out one of these locations to wait it out. Additionally, when you are in large crowds like the ones you may encounter on New Years Eve, consider the following: It is best to have a minimum amount of valuables on your person in a large crowd. Place your cash in a front pocket. Women should avoid carrying a purse that does not have a strap to hold onto. If possible, they should not carry a purse. Don't flash large amounts of money in public places. Don't wear necklaces and chains that can be yanked off you. Be alert to a changing atmosphere in the crowd. A large group of people in a confined space can turn from a celebrating group to an angry bunch of people, to a mob in a relatively short period of time. This can happen for a number of reasons; Law Enforcement may have imposed some unwanted restriction; panic; a fight between individuals or gang members; or actions by someone with an agenda to create an opportunity for easy theft. Whatever the reason, you should position yourself for a quick exit from the area. Avoid locations in the path of the crowd. People may panic and you could be trampled or mistaken for a troublemaker by police. Avoid locations near locked doorways or building walls that a swelling crowd could trap you against. Where should you be when faced with a crowd? Locate yourself near intersections or exits that allow you the opportunity to back away quickly and easily. This is not the time to be in the middle of a large crowd. Comply with instructions given by Law Enforcement Officers conducting crowd control. Some people think because they are not doing anything wrong they don't have to move when police officers direct them to do so. This is a big mistake. Officers will not have time to determine who is an observer and who is not. (FOLLOW THE LAWFUL DIRECTIONS GIVEN TO YOU BY LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THIS SITUATION). Arrange for a meeting place in the event that you are separated from your party. At home: Many municipal governments are recommending people prepare for the Y2K weekend like they would for a winter storm. Have extra milk, water, food and any necessary medication on hand. Additionally have a little extra cash and fill your automobiles up with gasoline. As always, make sure all the entrances and windows to your home can be locked securely, especially sliding glass doors. Then use the locks. Never leave your house unlocked. Be sure all the doors you cannot see are locked. Make sure your garage door is closed. If possible, find a reputable alarm service and have the appropriate security and exterior lighting system installed at your residence. Install peepholes in your doors that provide 180-degree visibility, including the door to your garage. Ensure shrubs and trees do not block views of your windows and doors from the street. Do not let strangers in your home, especially if you're alone, even if they claim there is a dire emergency. Instead, offer to make an emergency call for them while they wait outside. Avoid giving the impression you are home alone if strangers telephone or come to the door. If you do live alone, it's a good idea to use only your last name and initials on mailboxes and in telephone directories. If you return home and find obvious evidence of forced entry or if a door/window is open that shouldn't be, do not go inside. Go to the nearest phone and call the police. In some geographic areas individuals will fire weapons in the air during the New Year celebration. What they apparently don't realize is that what goes up must come down. Not only is it against the law, but damage or injury can occur, so don't fire a weapon in the air and avoid being around people who do. In the motel or hotel: Thieves count on people celebrating to be less attentive to security. Be careful. Don't leave your luggage unattended. Check your baggage with the staff if you can't go to your room immediately. Keep your extra valuables locked in the hotel safe and inventory your belongings kept in the room every day. Use all available auxiliary- locking devices when occupying or leaving your room. Know who is knocking before you open the door. Report any suspicious activity in the corridors or rooms to management. If someone is loitering in the hall near your room, do not enter your room. Instead, go directly to the front desk and report it. Never enter the room if the door is ajar and do not sit in your room with the door propped open. Don't leave the door open for any length of time, even if you're just going to the ice machine. NOTE: While nothing is 100% guaranteed, if you follow the above points the odds of you becoming a victim to crime will be greatly reduced. When necessary call the police and if it is an emergency dial 911, and remember to report all security concerns related to work to COMPANY Security at ........... - ------- End of forwarded message ------- Better to be safe, than sorry. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:45:58 -0800 From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... David Woodbury wrote: > > =============== > "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free > State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." > =============== > > Capt. Lahti, > > That was an outstanding post. Thanks for taking the time to > articulate your thoughts. I can appreciate the argument that an > erosion of any right can rarely be reversed, and, the precedent > established, almost certainly ensures more erosion in the future. My > problem is that I don't believe the absolute right existed in the > first place. I'll address a few points: Dave, Alas, you find me out. I am not perfect in my understanding of the fine points of the issue nor am I perfect in my thoughts on how it should be applied, as you point out. The issue is complicated, granted. I would wish to be consistent in saying that the Constitution is inviolate in it's entirety but as humans there is always some part that works against our inclinations or seems not to go far enough in protecting what we hold dear. This person wants to own any firearm without restriction, I want a mechanism in place that will assure me that he/she is not a criminal or mentally unstable. That person wants to say anything they wish. I say draw the line at public obscenities (I'll be the judge of what is obscene). That person wishes to be secure in his home from search and seizure. I wish to root out the drug labs. I want my kids to pray whenever they feel like it. You say no prayer in schools. (or visa versa of course ) No it is not easy determining what was meant or how to apply it in this day and age but surely the bottom line is "freedoms, liberties and protections lost are not soon recovered". But since there was no organized Militia when the document was written other than every able bodied citizen, it is reasonable for us to feel that the words mean what they say and we are to consider it our right as good citizens to keep and bare arms without further infringement from the government until such time as we prove by our acts to be unworthy of that trust. As to there being an absolute right to "keep and bare arms" existing in the first place, I believe that right is rooted deep within common law going way back in English Common Law which most scholars will admit is the basis for our laws. Any legislation that erodes that basic right is an infringement and in some cases may even be an example of confiscation. Because a state like Calif. has rewritten or rescinded a liberal law with one more restrictive does not make it good law in the eyes of the Constitution. Because the courts have upheld it, does not make it right. As modern citizens we choose to fight such usurpation in the Halls of Congress and in the Courts rather than the field of battle as was done in past ages but it is a constant fight to save basic liberties and rights. We all hold that all men are created equal, etc. but it took an amendment to take the equivocation out of how that basic human right was being abridged. Even with that amendment, are all men still treated equal? The Left attacks the 2nd Amendment to save us from ourselves and solve social ill's and evils. The Right attacks the 1st Amendment to save us from ourselves and make us pure of heart. It's human nature at it's ugly best. A difficult position we find ourselves in, no? Thank you for keeping me honest about my contradictions, may we both grow in wisdom. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > And yet, (in a quote above) you agree that something *less than all* > is "not that unreasonable." > > David > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:46:37 -0800 From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... I have a quick comment.... Why hasn't the US mainland been attacked in times of War? Because it's Citizen's are able and willing to defend it, and everyone knows it. hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:57:25 -0700 From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic actually he froze to death! >> >Well, it's like I've always said, "build a man a fire and you warm >him for a day, set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." > >Yes, I have a sick sense of humor. ;-) > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:35:28 -0800 From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control At 7:28 AM -0600 12/30/99, northwoods wrote: >Good observation Allen. I am curious as to how folks think they can >re-interperet these simple words and attempt to give them another meaning >all together. The entire Constitution is just "simple words." The First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech, but we have interpreted those simple words to mean you are not free to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater. The Constitution established a Supreme Court to deal with questions arising from these simple words. David - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:22:56 -0800 From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control David Woodbury wrote: > The entire Constitution is just "simple words." The First Amendment > guarantees freedom of speech, but we have interpreted those simple > words to mean you are not free to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Dave, Good point and one that I considered bringing up. As a retired Fire Captain that particular analogy hits home and I have used it in the past to explain responsibility. But what we are saying when we say you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded theater is not that you can't say "Fire" or use the word otherwise, only that you have to do it responsibly and will be held accountable if you do not. We now know that it is unwise and even made it illegal to say "Bomb" in and around airports because some folks don't know it is irresponsible to do that. You can still have the word and still use it if you use it responsibly. The same should apply to fire arms. > The Constitution established a Supreme Court to deal with questions > arising from these simple words. Alas it did. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:05:19 -0800 From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... John, Excellent exposition on the evolution of militia and other troops in this country. I'll keep that one in the file. You make good points, and I acknowledge them all. Alas, there is no definitive answer to these questions. >I ask you, Mr. Woodbury, If Congress has the power to restrict >ownership of firearms, does Congress also have the power to restrict >the freedom of speech, press, and the right to vote? Congress does not have the power to restrict these freedoms in any way that violates the Constitution. If it comes to it -- through legal challenges to some specific legislation -- I have a great deal of confidence in the Supreme Court to decide the issue. I don't believe the Courts or Congress are conspiring to take away basic American freedoms. >Yes Mr. Woodbury, we do agree on several important facets of this >issue, the problem arises as to where the line is drawn. I and many >on this list believe the restrictions are bordering on oppressive, >and will continue to become more oppressive unless we stand firm. I can appreciate that. And I certainly support your right to keep and bear arms. I'm also for less bureaucracy, not more. It's a complicated issue, to be sure, and I'm definitely not one who thinks the answer to things like Columbine, for example, is oppressive gun control. The roots of those problems lay elsewhere. >I fear, Mr. Woodbury, that the lemmings you follow will lead you, >and our freedoms into the sea of oblivion. I arrived at my opinion by studying the Constitution and associated writings of our Founding Fathers, by listening to others who have done the same, and by reading essays and editorials on both sides of the issue. That's because our freedoms are sacred to me. If all of us lemmings approached things as conscientiously, you might not feel your rights are under assault today. It's the ones who would give away our freedoms without even considering the essential ramifications that you need to worry about. David - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:05:32 -0800 From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... At 10:46 AM -0800 12/30/99, randybublitz@juno.com wrote: >I have a quick comment.... Why hasn't the US mainland been attacked in >times of War? Because it's Citizen's are able and willing to defend it, >and everyone knows it. Lots of reasons, mostly geographic or related to the fact that the other warring parties had first to secure their own regions. Small arms in the hands of American citizens has exactly nothing to do with it. Incidentally, in the War of 1812, the British not only attacked the American mainland, they marched on Washington and burned a lot it, while our government ignominiously fled. Having already fought the Colonials in the Revolution, these British knew quite well that ordinary Americans were likely to have weapons. Did Spain have the ability to invade the American mainland in the Spanish American War? Not a chance. In the two World Wars, we *joined* a European war already in progress. How were any of the belligerents in those wars supposed to disengage from their main fronts and mount an invasion of a large country on the other side of the ocean? It was all Germany could do to seize neighboring countries and try to hold the line (though they did lurk off our shores, killing Americans on merchant ships). How was Japan supposed to transport and sustain the kind of army it would take to invade the U.S. during the war years? What about North Korea? Or North Vietnam? No intentions to invade the U.S. under any circumstances. What specific "times of War" are you thinking of, during which the enemy was scared of privately-owned guns? David - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:05:27 -0800 From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... At 10:45 AM -0800 12/30/99, R Lahti wrote: >No it is not easy determining what was meant or how to apply it in this >day and age but surely the bottom line is "freedoms, liberties and >protections lost are not soon recovered". We are agreed. >A difficult position we find ourselves in, no? .... may we both grow >in wisdom... Hear, hear. And here's wishing you all the best in this New Year. Regards, David - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:18:05 -0800 From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control At 12:22 PM -0800 12/30/99, R Lahti wrote: >But what we are saying when we say you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded >theater is not that you can't say "Fire" or use the word otherwise, only >that you have to do it responsibly and will be held accountable if you >do not. . . . You can still have the word and still use it >>if you use it responsibly. The same should apply to fire arms. I agree. David - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:22:13 -0500 From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Loading blocks What size of spade bit is correct for drilling a loading block for a .45 patched round ball? HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:58:49 -0800 From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Loading blocks "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > > What size of spade bit is correct for drilling a loading block for a .45 > patched round ball? Henry, Baring any more precise answers: I go for a hole just bore size or a bit bigger. I also prefer using Forstner Bits for a cleaner hole. Measure the available bit sizes and go from there. If your hole admits to a loose fit with a patched ball in the requisite size you can tighten up the hole by several coats of varnish. The varnish also helps to prevent the wood drawing off your lube. If the available bit will provide too tight a hole, you can open it up with a round rasp. If your hole needs be .45 you will find that a 7/16" bit will be too small by .0125", but if you go with a 29/64" bit it will be too large by only .0031". Which do you wish to work with? A test hole or two is called for. Since I have not made a loading block for a .45 I can't begin to tell you what bit to start with but refer you to the above as a path to travel for the answer. Perhaps someone else will know the exact size that worked for their particular bore size and it will work for you too. Hope this helps, I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #438 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.