From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #444 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, January 7 2000 Volume 01 : Number 444 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? -       Re: MtMan-List: Blackfoot territory (was over-trapping) -       Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? -       Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? -       Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? -       Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? -       Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? -       Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? -       MtMan-List: Bounced Mail(OFF TOPIC) -       MtMan-List: Trading sites -       Re: MtMan-List: Trading sites ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:17:22 -0600 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Some good reading on the subject can be had in the book: "The Moose Book" by Samuel Merrill published by E.R. Dutton and Company 1916 The book also contains artwork by Rungius. Very nice. northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:05:03 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Since I usually buy any book I take an interest in, I went searching for this book - found it on Alibris. What a deal! It must be good, since the only copy I could find runs out at $240.00! I guess I shall have to check the library in town. I am humbled. Bill C - -----Original Message----- From: northwoods To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 11:16 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? >Some good reading on the subject can be had in the book: > >"The Moose Book" by Samuel Merrill published by E.R. Dutton and Company 1916 > >The book also contains artwork by Rungius. Very nice. > >northwoods > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:59:10 -0700 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blackfoot territory (was over-trapping) "Lee S. Newbill" wrote: >>From what I've read about the NWC and the HBC, they trapped a lot of area, but not generally in Blackfoot territory.<< Before 1821, the NWC & HBC didn't do a lot of trapping directly. Primarily they traded with the Natives for furs. When they did bring in Iroquouis trappers, it was with the consent of the Natives in the area that the Iroquois were going to trap. When these Iroquois wandered too far afield, they got into _really_ big trouble. >>I believe David Thompson, NWC, had to find another pass after ticking off the Blackfeet.<< Yes, that's right. The last trader to cross over the pass that Thompson had used to cross over to Kootenay House was the HBC's Joseph Howse. He was allowed to cross over by the Peigan only on condition that he never do it again. He was warned that if he returned, he would be turned into dried meat. So in 1810, Thompson headed north to the Athabasca Pass (in Jasper National Park), which he knew about through the Iroquois trappers. As far as I know, prior to 1821, the HBC & NWC _never_ sent anyone into Blackfoot territory to trap. They knew that would be a death sentence. They often bemoaned all the beaver going to waste in Blackfoot territory, but they weren't about to take the risk of going after it. Also, HBC & NWC posts were always on the north side of the North Saskatchewan River, because that was the boundary between the Cree and the Blackfoot. The first fur post in Canadian Blackfoot territory was Bow Fort (aka Peigan Post), which was established about 1837 (if I remember right!) on the express invitation of the Blackfoot. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:18:41 -0700 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? "Kurt Westenbarger" wrote: >> Below is a portion of the report EFFECTS OF WINTER RECREATION ON WILDLIFE OF THE GREATER YELLOWSTONE AREA Moose may have been rare in western North America during historic as well as pre-Columbian times (Peterson 1955, Kelsall and Telfer 1974, Kay 1997).<< This really floored me! Moose might have been rare in the western U.S., but here in Western Canada, moose hide has been preferred for moccasins for at least 200 years, and moose meat filled many fur traders' kettles. Perhaps the researchers were confused because in the Canadian fur trade, moose were often called by their French name, "orignal". But both David Thompson and Daniel Williams Harmon, to name just two, included detailed information on "moose deer" in their memoirs. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 17:54:36 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Barney, I always seem to run into moose in wyoming. Around Ten Sleep- while going to the western national seen 8 (three which came into camp at dark and bull tried to get our horses into his harem, but our ever brave riding mule, she is about 15 hands high, tried to scare him off. Thought we were in trouble on that one!); the last AMM camp Jim Sebastian and I kicked up a cow and calf in the willows just down stream from main camp. Here in Colorado, only found foot prints, but they always seem to kill a few during elk season. mike. BarneyPFife@aol.com wrote: > On a recent SE Alaska trip, from Anchorage to Vancouver, I asked about Moose > everywhere, wantin' to see 'em, and was told they didn't inhabit the southern > part of the state cuz it was too warm, and that I needed to go north of > Fairbanks iff'n I wanted to see any. That would lead me to believe they > weren't in the lower 48 (Rockies) neither. Barn > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 01:04:49 GMT From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Incident in movie Jeremiah Johnson > > Where Swan (Johnson's Flathead wife) shows him how to hunt grouse? by > > throwing a stone from within 8 feet? - without using a leather sling! > > Can such a hunting technique be backed up from any American Indian > > historical records? > > I did this very thing to a rabbit about thirty years ago. Plain blind luck!! However, the throwing stick has been used to take small game by a number of native peoples, as well as those folks not well off enough, or otherwise not able to own a gun. In my limited experience with throwing sticks, it is not only possible, but practical to take small game with this weapon, with lots of practice, when you don't want to make noise or expend your ammunition. J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:14:22 -0600 From: dammiller@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? Barny, I have had the great fortune of seeing them here in Utah on many occasions. Have pictures of a fine young bull not more than 20 feet away (on the other side of a parked car) at the top of Alpine loop above American Fork Utah. Others I have seen in Box Elder County and in Cache County. Both counties are in northern Utah. Have seen them in southern Idaho while on hunting trips with family. So I guess they must be different ones that were talked about in Alaska. Dave On Wed, 05 Jan 2000 17:54:36 -0700 Mike Moore writes: >Barney, > I always seem to run into moose in wyoming. Around Ten Sleep- >while going to >the western national seen 8 (three which came into camp at dark and >bull tried to >get our horses into his harem, but our ever brave riding mule, she is >about 15 >hands high, tried to scare him off. Thought we were in trouble on that >one!); the >last AMM camp Jim Sebastian and I kicked up a cow and calf in the >willows just >down stream from main camp., > Here in Colorado, only found foot prints, but they always seem to >kill a few >during elk season. > mike. > >BarneyPFife@aol.com wrote: > >> On a recent SE Alaska trip, from Anchorage to Vancouver, I asked >about Moose >> everywhere, wantin' to see 'em, and was told they didn't inhabit the >southern >> part of the state cuz it was too warm, and that I needed to go north >of >> Fairbanks iff'n I wanted to see any. That would lead me to believe >they >> weren't in the lower 48 (Rockies) neither. Barn >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:40:25 EST From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? Larry, No one has answered your question so I'll take a stab. 1. In late October - early November, 1824, Alexander Ross and company crossed the continental divide via Lemhi Pass. (Interestingly, this pass essentially crosses the Bitterroots from Montana into Idaho. Lewis and Clark crossed it on Aug. 12, 1805. Their journal indicates the pass is about 3 - 4 days travel from the Dillon, MT area.) After spending much time and ammunition shooting at geese and ducks, Ross reports, "We were at the same time surrounded on all sides by herds of buffalo, deer, moose and elk, as well as grouse, pheasant, and rabbit." Ross, Alexander. The Fur Hunters of the Far West. University of Oklahoma Press, Norman. 1956. pg. 291. 2. On Sept. 5, 1832, Warren Angus Ferris passed 25 miles down the Big Hole Valley. He says, "...our hunters killed three grizly(sic) bears, several goats, deer, and two buffaloes; the latter, however, is seldom found in this country; though it abounds in black and white tailed deer, elk, sheep, antelopes, and sometimes moose, and White mountain goats have been killed here." Ferris, Warren Angus. Life in the Rocky Mountains. Northland Press, Flagstaff, AZ. 1983. pg 233. So without further adieu, there appears to have been moose in the Rocky Mountain trapping grounds of the mountain men. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 2000 05:28:48 -0800 From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: MOOSE ? On Wed, 05 January 2000, dammiller@juno.com wrote: > > Barny, > > I have had the great fortune of seeing them here in Utah on many > occasions. Have pictures of a fine young bull not more than 20 feet away > (on the other side of a parked car) at the top of Alpine loop above > American Fork Utah. Others I have seen in Box Elder County and in Cache > County. Both counties are in northern Utah. Have seen them in southern > Idaho while on hunting trips with family. > > So I guess they must be different ones that were talked about in Alaska. > > Dave > > On Wed, 05 Jan 2000 17:54:36 -0700 Mike Moore > writes: > >Barney, > > I always seem to run into moose in wyoming. Around Ten Sleep- > >while going to > >the western national seen 8 (three which came into camp at dark and > >bull tried to > >get our horses into his harem, but our ever brave riding mule, she is > >about 15 > >hands high, tried to scare him off. Thought we were in trouble on that > >one!); the > >last AMM camp Jim Sebastian and I kicked up a cow and calf in the > >willows just > >down stream from main camp., > > Here in Colorado, only found foot prints, but they always seem to > >kill a few > >during elk season. > > mike. Mike, That camp at Lost Park is a real good spot to see moose, it's a drop off point for the newcomers when brought in from Wyo. Kermit and myself have seen at least two dozen in just 3-4 trips up there. Lots of young babies and mom's. Later, Buck Conner \\\|/// -@-@- - ---oo00---(_)---00oo--- _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html _________________________________ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 07:37:02 -0700 From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? Interesting Angela - I've forwarded your response to a freind of mine who is one of the research sources mentioned in the report. Snail mail because I don't have his email. Anyway, if and when I get a reponse I'll post it here. For others who responded with moose tales - I've backpacked in Yellowstone every year since '72 and never had a bear problem. Been chased twice by moose though. Both were cows, only one had a calf, and both came from over 50 yards away to chase me around a tree. Nasty critters moose. Local woman about four years ago was knocked down and stomped by a young bull breaking several ribs and puncturing a lung. Ask local naturalists what the most dangerous animal is in the GYA and I bet 60% will say moose because they give little indication that they're bugged before taking action. The other 40%? People driving machines of any type because they're looking for moose (etc) instead of at where they're going. Kurt Angela Gottfred wrote: > "Kurt Westenbarger" wrote: > > >> Below is a portion of the report EFFECTS OF > WINTER RECREATION ON WILDLIFE OF THE GREATER YELLOWSTONE AREA > Moose may have been rare in western > North America during historic as well as pre-Columbian > times (Peterson 1955, Kelsall and > Telfer 1974, Kay 1997).<< > > This really floored me! Moose might have been rare in the western U.S., but > here in Western Canada, moose hide has been preferred for moccasins for at > least 200 years, and moose meat filled many fur traders' kettles. Perhaps > the researchers were confused because in the Canadian fur trade, moose were > often called by their French name, "orignal". But both David Thompson and > Daniel Williams Harmon, to name just two, included detailed information on > "moose deer" in their memoirs. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:10:57 -0500 (EST) From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? The year before I moved to Achorage a collage Professer was stomped to death by a Moose w/ a calf on a trail just out side of downtown on which I was very fond of hiking. When I first got there (Alaska) and asked about Bears every one said dont worry about the bears worry bout the Moose!!! YMOS M. http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:24:03 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF5883.F93C4560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Jim, Hell I just finished reading LIFE IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS, and I missed = the note about the moose. Thanks again ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: Casapy123@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, January 06, 2000 12:41 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MOOSE ? =20 =20 Larry, =20 No one has answered your question so I'll take a stab. =20 1. In late October - early November, 1824, Alexander Ross and = company=20 crossed the continental divide via Lemhi Pass. (Interestingly, this = pass=20 essentially crosses the Bitterroots from Montana into Idaho. Lewis = and Clark=20 crossed it on Aug. 12, 1805. Their journal indicates the pass is = about 3 - 4=20 days travel from the Dillon, MT area.) After spending much time = and=20 ammunition shooting at geese and ducks, Ross reports, "We were at = the same=20 time surrounded on all sides by herds of buffalo, deer, moose and = elk, as=20 well as grouse, pheasant, and rabbit." Ross, Alexander. The Fur = Hunters of=20 the Far West. University of Oklahoma Press, Norman. 1956. pg. 291. =20 2. On Sept. 5, 1832, Warren Angus Ferris passed 25 miles down the = Big Hole=20 Valley. He says, "...our hunters killed three grizly(sic) bears, = several=20 goats, deer, and two buffaloes; the latter, however, is seldom found = in this=20 country; though it abounds in black and white tailed deer, elk, = sheep,=20 antelopes, and sometimes moose, and White mountain goats have been = killed=20 here." Ferris, Warren Angus. Life in the Rocky Mountains. Northland = Press,=20 Flagstaff, AZ. 1983. pg 233. =20 So without further adieu, there appears to have been moose in the = Rocky=20 Mountain trapping grounds of the mountain men. =20 Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF5883.F93C4560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Jim,
  Hell I = just finished=20 reading LIFE IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS, and I missed the note about the=20 moose.  Thanks again !
Pendleton
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Casapy123@aol.com = <Casapy123@aol.com>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Thursday, January 06, 2000 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 MOOSE ?

Larry,

No one has answered your = question=20 so I'll take a stab.

1.  In late October - early = November, 1824,=20 Alexander Ross and company
crossed the continental divide via = Lemhi=20 Pass.  (Interestingly, this pass
essentially crosses the=20 Bitterroots from Montana into Idaho.  Lewis and Clark =
crossed it on=20 Aug. 12, 1805.  Their journal indicates the pass is about 3 - 4 =
days travel from the Dillon, MT area.)   After = spending much=20 time and
ammunition shooting at geese and ducks, Ross reports, = "We=20 were at the same
time surrounded on all sides by herds of = buffalo, deer,=20 moose and elk, as
well as grouse, pheasant, and rabbit." = Ross,=20 Alexander. The Fur Hunters of
the Far West. University of = Oklahoma=20 Press, Norman.  1956.  pg. 291.

2.  On Sept. = 5, 1832,=20 Warren Angus Ferris passed 25 miles down the Big Hole =
Valley.  He=20 says, "...our hunters killed three grizly(sic) bears, several=20
goats, deer, and two buffaloes; the latter, however, is seldom = found in=20 this
country; though it abounds in black and white tailed deer, = elk,=20 sheep,
antelopes, and sometimes moose, and White mountain goats = have=20 been killed
here."  Ferris, Warren Angus. Life in the = Rocky=20 Mountains. Northland Press,
Flagstaff, AZ.  1983. pg = 233.

So=20 without further adieu, there appears to have been moose in the Rocky =
Mountain trapping grounds of the mountain men.

Jim = Hardee,=20 AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
(530)283-4566 = (H)
(530)283-3330 (W)
(530)283-5171 FAX
Casapy123@aol.com

----------= - ------------
hist_text=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF5883.F93C4560-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 23:54:36 -0500 From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: Bounced Mail(OFF TOPIC) Hello... After a couple of "PAY YOUR INTERNET BILL" calls, I am back online.. The pinheads (and I AM being kind) that took over this server have been tinkering with it and managed to FUBAR it and it has bounce all mail for about 12 hrs.. SOooo... Anyone that has tried to threaten, cast dispersions on my character or just cuss at me and your mail has bounced back in your face, I apologize on behalf of the pinheads... Thanks for your indulgence... Dennis - -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:59:29 -0500 From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: MtMan-List: Trading sites This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF58FE.45613840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I lost all my bookmarks and included was a bookmark for a trading site = that we talked about on this site many months ago. Does anyone know its = address? or any other buckskinning trading sites. Thanks Frank - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF58FE.45613840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I lost all my bookmarks and included = was a bookmark=20 for a trading site that we talked about on this site many months = ago.  Does=20 anyone know its address?  or any other buckskinning trading=20 sites.
 
Thanks
 
Frank
- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF58FE.45613840-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 12:02:29 PST From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trading sites contact me offlist at kpmtnman@hotmail.com. I will forward my list to you. >From: "Frank V. Rago" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Trading sites >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:59:29 -0500 > >I lost all my bookmarks and included was a bookmark for a trading site that >we talked about on this site many months ago. Does anyone know its >address? or any other buckskinning trading sites. > >Thanks > >Frank ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #444 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.