From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #617 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, September 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 617 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Off Topic - Congrats Buck -       MtMan-List: web site additions -       MtMan-List: television documentary -       MtMan-List: Fwd: Fw: Somethin' to think about......OFF TOPIC -       MtMan-List: Stuff For Sale -       MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? -       MtMan-List: Fire! -       MtMan-List: Western Fires -       Re: MtMan-List: Western Fires -       Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? -       Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Congrats Buck -       Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 21:39:06 -0400 (EDT) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Congrats Buck On your new job and also that you'll be researching along with your longtime buddy from the days of youth. good to hear you two are on the same team. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 23:12:32 -0600 From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: web site additions Howdy,

There have been several recent additions to the Mountain Men and the Fur Trade website that y'all may find of interest (http://www.mtmen.org).

A database of Names of the Fur Trade, contributed by Mike Moore, lists hundreds of names of individuals connected with the Rocky Mt Fur Trade in the first half of the 19th century, along with references.  This database may be found at:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/names/names.html

also

the Astoria Inventories, a detailed list of goods present at the various Astorian posts in 1813.  Quite a while ago, Jim Hardee sent me xeroxes of these lists, and it has taken me an embarrassingly long time to get them on-line.  The problem was that the copies weren't clear enough to scan in, and I kept planning to type them in by hand -- but I've come to the realization that I wasn't going to get that done anytime soon, so for now they're posted in bitmap (jpeg) format.  I think you'll find everything is legible, and bitmap, though less desirable than OCR'ed text, is better than nothing.  Anyway, they may be found at:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/manu/astoria/index.html

Many thanks to Mike and Jim for these contributions.  Hope you find them useful!
Dean Rudy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 07:37:24 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: television documentary bicycles in the Army? What does that have to do with the subject of this list? Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 08:37:31 -0700 (PDT) From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fw: Somethin' to think about......OFF TOPIC >Just take a couple of minutes to read > this......... > > > >WHERE WE'RE HEADED By Robert A. Waters > > > > > > > > > > > >You're sound asleep when you hear a thump > outside your bedroom door. > > > > > > > >Half-awake, and nearly paralyzed with fear, you > hear muffled whispers. > > > >At least two people have broken into your house > and are moving your > way. > > > > > > > >With your heart pumping, you reach down beside > your bed and pick up > your > > > >shotgun. You rack a shell into the chamber, > then inch toward the door > > and > > > >open it. > > > > > > > >In the darkness, you make out two shadows. One > holds a weapon--it > looks > > > >like a crowbar. > > > > > > > >When the intruder brandishes it as if to > strike, you raise the shotgun > > and > > > >fire. The blast knocks both thugs to the > floor. One writhes and > > screams > > > >while the second man crawls to the front door > and lurches outside. > > > > > > > >As you pick up the telephone to call police, > you know you're in > trouble. > > > >In your country, most guns were outlawed years > before, and the few that > > are > > > >privately owned are so stringently regulated as > to make them useless. > > > >Yours was never registered. > > > > > > > >Police arrive and inform you that the second > burglar has died. They > > arrest > > > >you for First Degree Murder and Illegal > Possession of a Firearm. > > > > > > > >When you talk to your attorney, he tells you > not to worry: authorities > > will > > > >probably plea the case down to manslaughter. > "What kind of sentence > > will I > > > >get?" you ask. "Only ten-to-twelve years," he > replies, as if that's > > > >nothing. "Behave yourself, and you'll be out > in seven." > > > > > > > >The next day, the shooting is the lead story in > the local newspaper. > > > >Somehow, you're portrayed as an eccentric > vigilante while the two men > > you > > > >shot are represented as choir boys. Their > friends and relatives can't > > find > > > >an unkind word to say about them. Buried deep > down in the article, > > > >authorities acknowledge that both "victims" > have been arrested numerous > > > >times. But the next day's headline says it > all: "Lovable Rogue Son > > Didn't > > > >Deserve to Die." The thieves have been > transformed from career > criminals > > > >into Robin Hood-type pranksters. > > > > > > > >As the days wear on, the story takes wings. > The national media picks > it > > > >up, then the international media. > > > > > > > >The surviving burglar has become a folk hero. > Your attorney says the > > thief > > > >is preparing to sue you, and he'll probably > win. > > > > > > > >The media publishes reports that your home has > been burglarized several > > > >times in the past and that you've been critical > of local police for > > their > > > >lack of effort in apprehending the suspects. > After the last break-in, > > you > > > >told your neighbor that you would be prepared > next time. > > > >The District Attorney uses this to allege that > you were lying in wait > > for > > > >the burglars. > > > > > > > >A few months later, you go to trial. The > charges haven't been reduced, > > as > > > >your lawyer had so confidently predicted. When > you take the stand, > your > > > >anger at the injustice of it all works against > you. Prosecutors paint > a > > > >picture of you as a mean, vengeful man. > > > > > > > >It doesn't take long for the jury to convict > you of all charges. > > > > > > > >The judge sentences you to life in prison. > > > > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This > > > >case really happened. > > > > > > > >On August 22, 1999, Tony Martin of Emneth, > Norfolk, England, killed one > > > >burglar and wounded a second. In April, 2000, > he was convicted and is > > now > > > >serving a life term. > > > > > > > >How did it become a crime to defend one's own > life in the once-great > > > >British Empire? > > > > > > > >It started with the Pistols Act of 1903. This > seemingly reasonable law > > > >forbade selling pistols to minors or felons and > established that > handgun > > > >sales were to be made only to those who had a > license. The Firearms > Act > > of > > > >1920 expanded licensing to include not only > handguns but all firearms > > > >except shotguns. Later laws passed in 1953 and > 1967 outlawed the > > carrying > > > >of any weapon by private citizens and mandated > the registration of all > > > >shotguns. > > > > > > > >Momentum for total handgun confiscation began > in earnest after the > > > >Hungerford mass shooting in 1987. Michael > Ryan, a mentally disturbed > > man > > > >with a Kalashnikov rifle, walked down the > streets shooting everyone he > > saw. > > > > When the smoke cleared, 17 people were dead. > > > > > > > >The British public, already de-sensitized by > eighty years of "gun > > control", > > > >demanded even tougher restrictions. (The > seizure of all privately > owned > > > >handguns was the objective even though Ryan > used a rifle.) > > > > > > > >Nine years later, at Dunblane, Scotland, Thomas > Hamilton used a > > > >semi-automatic weapon to murder 16 children and > a teacher at a public > > > >school. > > > > > > > >For many years, the media had portrayed all gun > owners as mentally > > > >unstable, or worse, criminals. Now the press > had a real kook with > which > > to > > > >beat up law-abiding gun owners. Day after day, > week after week, the > > media > > > >gave up all pretense of objectivity and > demanded a total ban on all > > > >handguns. The Dunblane Inquiry, a few months > later, sealed the fate of > > the > > > >few sidearms still owned by private citizens. > > > > > > > >During the years in which the British > government incrementally took > away > > > >most gun rights, the notion that a citizen had > the right to armed > > > >self-defense came to be seen as vigilantism. > Authorities refused to > > grant > > > >gun licenses to people who were threatened, > claiming that self-defense > > was > > > >no longer considered a reason to own a gun. > Citizens who shot burglars > > or > > > >robbers or rapists were charged while the real > criminals were released. > > > >Indeed, after the Martin shooting, a police > spokesman was quoted as > > saying, > > > >"We cannot have people take the law into their > own hands." > > > > > > > >All of Martin's neighbors had been robbed > numerous times, and several > > > >elderly people were severely injured in > beatings by young thugs who had > > no > > > >fear of the consequences. Martin himself, a > collector of antiques, had > > > >seen most of his collection trashed or stolen > by burglars. > > > > > > > >When the Dunblane Inquiry ended, citizens who > owned handguns were given > > > >three months to turn them over to local > authorities. Being good > British > > > >subjects, most people obeyed the law. The few > who didn't were visited > > by > > > >police and threatened with ten-year prison > sentences if they didn't > > comply. > > > > > > > >Police later bragged that they'd taken nearly > 200,000 handguns from > > private > > > >citizens. > > > > > > > >How did the authorities know who had handguns? > > > > > > > >The guns had been registered and licensed. > Kinda like cars. > > > > > > > >Sound familiar? > > > > > > > >WAKE UP AMERICA, THIS IS WHY OUR FOUNDING > FATHERS PUT THE SECOND > > AMENDMENT > > > >IN OUR CONSTITUTION. > > > > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:18:33 -0700 From: "Bruce S. de Lis" Subject: MtMan-List: Stuff For Sale I have several item for sale, that if you would like information on please contact me off list. 1. One Pair Drop Front Pants, Size W-38, Inseam 34, White in Color with Two Hidden Pockets. 2 Two Cotton Long Sleeved Shirts suitable for Rendezvous, Friendship, etc. or? Both Size 46 One is Blue & One Red 3. Throwing Knife & Hawk made by Beaver Bills Forge Works-Ohio. Both Weight Approx. 14-1/2 ounces, and comply with Weight, Size, Size of Blade Proportion for NMLRA Competition (NMLRA Competition Legal). 4. 50 Extra 3/4=94 English Gun Flints - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 03:28:28 GMT From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Mike, Just checked out your list on the AMM web sight...impressive! Was wondering if you could give me the context for the name Jack Hays and Col. John C Hays? John Coffee Hays was THE Texas Ranger during the Republic period and I'm assuming the Col. John C Hays on your list is the same person(John Coffee Hays also went by Jack Hays or Cpt. Jack). I was not aware of any connection with the furtrade..I knew he settled Oakland California after the Mexican War as well as scouted for a road from San Antonio to El Paso but what was the furtrade connection? Any information regarding this would be GREATLY appreciated as I don't have an available copy of either sources you used for the reference on this. Thanks for going thruogh all the trouble to present this list to us and thank you Mr. Rudy for posting it! Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 10:30:27 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Fire! Friends, My brother in law in Boise sent me a report of how the recent fires near Yellowpine, ID. up the Middle Fork of the Salmon R. went for some rangers, outfitters and property owners. I have had it put on a friends web page so you may share it too. It is a well written narrative and I think you will find it very interesting. Thanks for your time. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/fires.htm The rains can come none too soon. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 13:30:12 -0500 From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Western Fires Capt. L I read the accounts of the fire last night on Ad's web site. Sounds like these folks have had a real hard time. Thank God No human life was lost in this case. The loss of woods, wild creatures, and perhaps some livestock is enough. Hopefully enough rain will come to stop the fires, and soon. YMOS, Harddog - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 12:22:24 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western Fires Harddog, It's raining now here in Kennewick. I hope it is enough else where. We normally don't get more than about 8-9 inches a year and it hasn't rained here all summer. The guys back east have had their problems with too much. Maybe it is our turn now. Capt. L - ----- Original Message ----- From: "harddog" To: Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 11:30 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Western Fires > Capt. L > > I read the accounts of the fire last night on Ad's web site. Sounds like > these folks have had a real hard time. Thank God No human life was lost in > this case. The loss of woods, wild creatures, and perhaps some livestock is > enough. > > Hopefully enough rain will come to stop the fires, and soon. > > YMOS, > Harddog > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:38:54 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Scott, Yes, it sounds like this is the person you were looking for. Col. John C. "Jack" Hays was a guide for the October and November 1849 trip on the trail from New Mexico to Arizona. He mentioned in Leroy Hafen's book under the chapter "David Jackson", as being the guide and part of the "Fremont Association party along with Robert Eccleston". In the other book I list, "Wild Life in the Far West", a couple pages talk about him being a texas ranger (under the name of Jack Hays) and his 600 hundred men. The incident which Hobbs writes about is a triall and hanging when a ranger is confronted by a drunk mexican who says he will kill a texan before they leave and draws a knife. The ranger (unnamed) pulls a gun and shoots him. Col. Twiggs, who was at Vera Cruz, ordered a gallows erected and planned to have the man hanged. Well, as the hanging was to be done, the regiment rode up demanded the man's freedom (which came off without much more discussion) and he hopped on a horse and rode away with them. Twiggs, stays out of sight and evently leaves the city to excape harm in a boat. Hobbs dates the action about 1847, so both dates are alittle past what most consider the fur trade. But, I tend to extend the fur trade to include some years when the fur traders, trappers and adventurers were still alive and active in the west. Hope this is a help to you, if you would like the full account of the Hobbs story and the line drawing which goes along with it, let me know. The "Trapper of the Far West" is still in print and can be found fairly easily. But it does only contain a paragraph about who you are interested in- maybe a library close would have it. Or better yet, a friend. mike. scott mcmahon wrote: > Mike, > Just checked out your list on the AMM web sight...impressive! Was wondering > if you could give me the context for the name Jack Hays and Col. John C > Hays? John Coffee Hays was THE Texas Ranger during the Republic period and > I'm assuming the Col. John C Hays on your list is the same person(John > Coffee Hays also went by Jack Hays or Cpt. Jack). I was not aware of any > connection with the furtrade..I knew he settled Oakland California after the > Mexican War as well as scouted for a road from San Antonio to El Paso but > what was the furtrade connection? Any information regarding this would be > GREATLY appreciated as I don't have an available copy of either sources you > used for the reference on this. Thanks for going thruogh all the trouble to > present this list to us and thank you Mr. Rudy for posting it! > Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 2 Sep 2000 17:30:57 -0700 From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Congrats Buck On Thu, 31 August 2000, Jon Marinetti wrote: > On your new job and also that you'll be researching along with your > longtime buddy from the days of youth. good to hear you two are on the > same team. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jon, Buck is out of town this week with his work during the day, and checking on some items from a dig near Washington, MO during the evening hours. He will be visiting Crosby Brown, local historian and retired Historian for Missouri. Mr. Brown has been working our (the lists) time period for most of his life with different state and personal projects, has written many articles and documents on the fur trade along the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers. Think Buck will have an excellent information gathering experience with his old friend. Oh, an article that was written by Buck, "Success in the Fur Trade" has been selected by the Historical Society (museum newletter) and may end up being article of the year among these folks, pretty cool and he doesn't know about this as he's not on the internet to receive the word, while out of town. Thank you for the kind words, know he'll agree jon. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 2 Sep 2000 19:09:48 -0700 From: Concho Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark > ------- Start of forwarded message ------- > > I have been working for last week on a Imax movie being made for National > Geographic. What a joke it would have been nice if someone would have read > the journals............. > We did manage to get them to let us build one Willow hut in the middle of all > the Teepees. Just the reverse of what it should have been.................... > With all the meat they had hanging around the camp it is going to be hard to > tell that > they were on hard times with little food in camp...................... > We did talk them in to build a long house to go with the teepees. So it may be > a little better but I dought it. From what I have seen I would give this movie > a big thumbs down. You would think National Geographic would do better. > See Ya On The Trail > Crazy Cyot ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Crazy, Several of us that canoe together had similar experiences with a National Geographic crew earlier this year at Bonnet's Mill, MO. We where to do some camp scenes in the evening, showing the preparing of food, as well as the forgaging of wild edibles. Buck having been in the period edibles food business, having written about the foraging of wild edible items, etc. and all of us having a little knowledge of what could be available in the area, we five thought we could give them what they where looking for. Wrong, they supplied what they thought we needed from the local grocery store, Tex Mex south western foods, Chinese herbs (in the bottles with labels removed) and several other items that would be completely wrong for the time frame - 1804-1805. We had a heck of a time getting them to let us use our own camp kitchen that is correct for the period and has seen more miles than the whole NG crew put together. This was the only positive note to the whole experience we encountered with "the folks in the know", the director was behond reasoning with on the edibles or the way they wanted the camp setup. If this would have been in 1804-1805, we may have been either killed or robbed within the first few hours of being there, out in the open, a fire as big as a Saturday night rendezvous one, and more camp followers hanging around than would have been at a major settlement. Crazy, sounds like we where working with the same National Geographic crew or their second cousins, they are as bad as Hollywood and changing their way of thinking is real questionable. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #617 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.