From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #677 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, November 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 677 In this issue: -       RE: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -       Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves -       Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -       Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves -       Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -       Re: MtMan-List:Wintering in a Tipi -       Re: MtMan-List:Wintering in a Tipi -       Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -       MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -       Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -       MtMan-List: 26 point white tail -       Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -       MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money -       Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi? -       Re: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money -       Re: MtMan-List: 26 point white tail -       Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi? -       Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -       Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:05:44 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14' diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit). Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing? In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of liberties with accuracy!) A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the front poles. Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:06:24 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves elkflea asked if anyone died as a result of asphyxiation from carbon monoxide poisoning in a Tipi. When I was down on the Cheyenne River Reserve and talking to the old people about winter life in the tipi I asked about ventilation (since I had been told they often stuffed dry grass down in the space between the covering and the ghost sheet). I was told that it was common to dig a shallow trench in the ground before pitching the tipi for the winter. The trench extended from outside of the covering to the fire in the centre. The trench was then covered with branches (so you didn't trip on it). It allowed cold air to reach the fire without making a draft on everyone inside. I don't expect canvas would likely gas anyone (though it could), but I imagine a hide tipi wouldn't "breathe" worth a darn! Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:19:01 -0800 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi A small tipi of 10 to 12 would take about 25 yards at 36" wide. If using the 48" it would be less. Linda Holley Walt Foster wrote: > Don't know if anybody's mentioned it yet, but Allen Chronister had an > article on this very topic in the last Museum of the Fur Trade > Quarterly. Good research. In short, he gives evidence that cloth tipi > covers can be documented as early as 1846 (Lakotas). There was another > article on canvas tipi covers in the MFTQ Fall '84. And Marcy mentions > canvas tipi covers in "Prairie Traveler" (1859) > http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/carrie/kancoll/books/marcy/index.html. > > This pushes the documentable date back earlier than 1870's, but doesn't > quite get you to 1800. If you're a stickler for authenticity and want to > document cloth tipi's that early, you could try looking in HBC records for > huge purchases of cloth by indians - a tipi would require - what - 50 yards > or more? > -Dean > > Hello Dean, > > Walt Marten has a Lewis and Clark reference to a tipi being brought up river > 1805. There is a 50/50 chance that this was the first cloth tipi in what is > now called Montana. The small tipi was for the use of the guides and > carried on the big boat. With the wet conditions and sail clothe being > available within the expedition. A small cloth tipi of 10-12 foot in > diameter does not take anywhere near 50 yards of material. I will see Walt > Marten at the Stillwater County Lewis and Clark Bicentennial Commission > meeting on the 20th and I will arrange to get the reference. > > Walt > Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 > Clark Bottom Rendezvous > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:00:48 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves In a message dated 11/20/0 12:07:37 PM, dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes: <> But you still have a heck-of-a vent in that smoke hole. Without the draft coming under the dew cloth or in the previously mentioned "vent-channel" the smoke won't go out and you get an immediate message. Many times I have gotten up in the night to clear fresh snowfall away from the edge of that covering to allow the draft to come in . . . clears the smoke right out. Smokey tipis wake you up - they're not like the fumes from those little stoves. Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:58:45 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be) goes along way in how much detail goes into his work. "Best, Dianne" wrote: > Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more > > You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14' > diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit). > > Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and > canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing? > > In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a > painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where > all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of > liberties with accuracy!) > > A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides > weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where > the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the > front poles. > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:49:38 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Wintering in a Tipi Elkflea I can't say as I have heard of any one get COed in a Tipis. But I have had to lay low a few times when the smoke got thick, do to a wind change. Before I got up to change the smoke flaps. The first winter I lived in my tipis I dug a trench to the out side as before mentioned but I {for give the lack of period correctness} laid a pipe in the ground with a ninety on it so it had about three feet of pipe standing above the ground. So the snow would not cover it. This worked every well; helped keep a good draft for the fire and helped to keep the inside of the lodge warmer because the fire was not pulling cold air in form the edges of the lodge. I also found that a tall liner helps to keep it warmer. Never tried the grass stuffed in the liner just figured that when the grass got wet and started to mold it would help to rote the canvas faster. I found building a wind brake fence around the tipis helped too, also gave me a place to store fire wood. I spent two winters in a tipis on the bend of the Bear River by Soda Spring Idaho. I also found out way the Indians did not winter there it's got to be one of the coldest places in the state. See ya on the Trail Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:46:06 -0700 From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Wintering in a Tipi Hello the list, What Crazy didn't really emphasize here was that he _lived_ in the tipi year round for 2 years. So when it comes to knowing how and what works and what don't, I'd be a listenin' to the Cyot! Allen At 11:49 PM 11/20/2000 EST, you wrote: >Elkflea I can't say as I have heard of any one get COed in a Tipis. But I >have had to lay low a few times when the smoke got thick, do to a wind >change. Before I got up to change the smoke flaps. The first winter I lived >in my tipis I dug a trench to the out side as before mentioned but I {for >give the lack of period correctness} laid a pipe in the ground with a ninety >on it so it had about three feet of pipe standing above the ground. So the >snow would not cover it. This worked every well; helped keep a good draft for >the fire and helped to keep the inside of the lodge warmer because the fire >was not pulling cold air in form the edges of the lodge. I also found that a >tall liner helps to keep it warmer. Never tried the grass stuffed in the >liner just figured that when the grass got wet and started to mold it would >help to rote the canvas faster. I found building a wind brake fence around >the tipis helped too, also gave me a place to store fire wood. I spent two >winters in a tipis on the bend of the Bear River by Soda Spring Idaho. I also >found out way the Indians did not winter there it's got to be one of the >coldest places in the state. > > See ya on the Trail > Crazy Cyot > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 06:33:36 -0800 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi Interesting that the painting is 1860. Canvas was used in the 1850's. But how about earlier for pictures. like the 1830 or so. Linda Holley Mike Moore wrote: > I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference > between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a > copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the > flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows > the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on > edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting > determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be) > goes along way in how much detail goes into his work. > > "Best, Dianne" wrote: > > > Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more > > > > You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14' > > diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit). > > > > Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and > > canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing? > > > > In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a > > painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where > > all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of > > liberties with accuracy!) > > > > A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides > > weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where > > the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the > > front poles. > > > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 07:44:12 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Howdy again group. I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous allow dogs on the grounds? My companion is period-correct (being little changed since the 12 Century) - not my specific hound, you understand, but the breed in general - golly no, my dog isn't that old. Dogs were also a part of camp life but I gather that many Rendezvous are held in parks and I don't know what their rules are. I'd appreciate a straw vote on how often my hound could go a tradin with me. na-ya-whe Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 07:57:27 -0600 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Diane Virtually all Texas rendezvous allow dogs, but very few allow them to = run free. Bring a pair of leashs for phideaux, a short one for walking = him around camp, and a longer one to picket him in camp at all other = times. Lanney Ratcliff ps: When I am made king, this will be the universal rule for = rendezvous. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:16:09 EST From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes: > I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous allow dogs on the grounds?>> Our club shoots and rendezvous allows dogs as do most of the shoots and camps I've been to here around Montana. Only problem has been those who don't control dogs and you have dogs wandering through your camp and tents. Then there is the occasional dog that wants to wander around the targets on the range. Our small shoots and rondys around here will usually ask someone with a repeatedly unmannerly dog to keep them under control or not to bring them anymore. I usually bring only one of my three dogs at a time. It makes them easier to control and it's easier to keep an eye on them. Dogs will be dogs, they are friendly and curious, wanting to see everyone and be part of everything. Of course when you are cooking or eating they want to help with sampling the fare. My dogs tend to want to go with the kids. More action there then hanging out with the old folks. You can also usually get the kids to take your dog off somewhere for a good "romp", swim or walk. Seems like the eastern rondys had more restrictions than some of the western ones. Some of the really big rendezvous, with a lot of public, have been the only ones I've usually seen with dog restrictions, i.e., Alafia, Fort de Chartre, etc. With that many people around I can understand why they would restrict it. They can be a real problem. I find it most annoying when you are on the firing line and have to stop to get a dog off the range or when they come in to your camp to steal food. Don't mind the mannerly beggars who just sit with the mournful look, but have had some snatch food out of the pan or off a plate. I am a real dog lover, but again it can be very annoying to have uncontrolled dogs wandering through everything. When you open it up to dogs for everyone, you take a chance of getting the uncontrolled dogs. Most dogs I've seen at Rondy have been very good, but it only takes one to ruin it for all. Hope this helps. YMOS Ghosting Wolf - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 07:37:14 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi Linda, Off the top of my head, you might check out Karl Bodmer's water colors. In "People of the First Man", (1833-4 Which has Prince Maximillian's journal in it too) Karl paints a couple hide tipis. One is a Assiniboin camp near Fort Union (pages 70-71) and on page 96 a indian battle outside Fort MacKenzie has four. It is good to hear about the ones on the list which have used their lodges for extended peroids. While I have used mine for up to a week and half, it is not the same as a winter, a year or more. Keep the lessons coming. As far as hide tipis, I think this subject is like alot of others, the information is availible if we just look for it. Too many times, we see and soak up the the big picture (or pages of information) and do recall the specifics on small things or topics. But hwen we look, we find alot of info that is helpful. mike. p.s. George Catlin draws some lodges in his books "Lettters and Notes on the Conditions of North American Indians" (two volumes, 1832-9), but don't remember to what detail his are. I think a Crow lodge is shown in volume one and as some one on this list mentioned eariler, a picture of two big lodges openned up to allow alot of people 60 to 70 people (?) to be in them. Linda Holley wrote: > Interesting that the painting is 1860. Canvas was used in the 1850's. But how > about earlier for pictures. like the 1830 or so. > > Linda Holley > > Mike Moore wrote: > > > I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference > > between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a > > copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the > > flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows > > the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on > > edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting > > determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be) > > goes along way in how much detail goes into his work. > > > > "Best, Dianne" wrote: > > > > > Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more > > > > > > You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14' > > > diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit). > > > > > > Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and > > > canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing? > > > > > > In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a > > > painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where > > > all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of > > > liberties with accuracy!) > > > > > > A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides > > > weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where > > > the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the > > > front poles. > > > > > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:56:14 -0700 From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Diane, There are several Rdvs. here in California that do not allow dogs. After problems with fighting, and biting people a couple of my favorite Rdvs. disallowed dogs. I have 2 5 month old Aussie Cattle Dogs. We just spent some time at a snowy rendezvous near Donner Pass. Check the RDVS. flyers to see if dogs are allowed, or not. hardtack - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:13:07 -0600 From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: 26 point white tail A guy in west central Wisconsin shot a 26 pointer north of Chippewa Falls this weekend. To see a picture go to: http://www.chippewa.com/ or http://www.chippewa.com/display/inn_news/news1.txt - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:32:57 -0500 From: Jim Lockmiller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs I've been to a few Rondy's where dogs like that would be the next meal. My Native Friends call them "BLT" - Black Lab on Toast Manbear GHickman@aol.com wrote: > when they come in to your camp to steal food. > Don't mind the mannerly beggars who just sit with the mournful look, but have > had some snatch food out of the pan or off a plate. > Ghosting Wolf > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:47:12 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Dogs at Rendezvous I have never read an instance of mountain men having dogs with the instance of Black Harris and Sublette(?) leaving Cache Valley in January for St. Louis to set up the next rendezvous. They had left a winter encampment with Indians and I presume it was from the Indians that they got the dog. I'm fuzzy on recollection but I believe it was a beast of burden to begin with (though I cannot see a travois going through deep drifts) if so did they use some sort of tobogan(?). Anyway the dog was killed in a gruesome way for food before they were too many days along the winter trail. Again - I don't believe Mt. Men were much for having dogs, barking not being an asset when stealth is a way of life. Indians, on the other hand had dogs for several reasons. So when there was a mixed camp, there were dogs. As for me I get really pissed if I discover "doggy-do" on the bottom of my moccasins. I hold the owner responsible. I don't think this has changed much from 1830s and any offending pooch runs a risk of ending up in the pot, which puts the burden of control on the owner. Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:49:11 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money I only been hanging around this cyber outpost for a short time but I feel inclined to spout a bit... I am right impressed with knowledgeable help I have gotten with some of the questions I have posted. Lot of smart people lurking in the shadows here. Ya'll seem to be friendly bunch and give a warm welcome to a disoriented stranger. Much appreciate it. When I ask a question that sounds like it come from a flatlander, ya'll have been mighty patient with me. Don't know who many of you folks I'll have a chance to meet, but I look forward to crossing trails with ya'll - hope you don't laugh too hard the first time I show up at Rendezvous! Just wanted to say Megwich! Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:55:45 -0700 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi? Oh, I know that one, actually they did both as well as cached poles in favorite camping spots joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:35:42 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money In a message dated 11/21/0 11:50:32 AM, dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes: <> So what is a Megwich? Is it Celtic diety? Maybe something like Wicken witch? If it is good - many Megwiches to you, too, from Utah. Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:42:02 -0500 From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 26 point white tail Must be removed from the web. Went there to see and it was just an article about deer harvest being down. If you have the jif would love to see the deer photo. - -C.Kent hist_text@lists.xmission.com wrote: > > A guy in west central Wisconsin shot a 26 pointer north of Chippewa > Falls this weekend. > > To see a picture go to: > > http://www.chippewa.com/ > > > or > > http://www.chippewa.com/display/inn_news/news1.txt > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:30:44 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi? Joe You must have missed what I was talking about. Read The subject line. Walt said he had heard that Lewis& Clark had a Tipis with them for their guides to use That may have been made of canvas. Not unless you meant that Lewis& Clark had favorite camping spots that they cached their poles at ahead of time. That would have been just as likely as them having a tipis made out of canvas or hide. Been meaning to make it over to see you haven't seen your store yet; one of these days we'll make it over to see you until then watch your top not. Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:40:30 -0800 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Originally, Alafia in Fla. did not allow dogs because of the alligators. Dogs are considered bait. Then when they moved the site to where no alligators were a problem they just kept the rule. The Original Southeastern was held in the same spot as the Alafia and also had the rule. They also kept the no dogs when they moved the Southeastern to other areas. Committees do not want to put up with the animals. One Southeastern almost got sued over the issue. They did not post the rules about dogs before hand and some dogs were brought into camp. It was not until you got into camp and set up that the you read the rules and found out there were no dogs. Long story..... But I won against the NMLRA. Linda Holley Tipi Wastewin "Good Lodge Woman" GHickman@aol.com wrote: > dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes: > > > I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous > allow dogs on the grounds?>> > > Our club shoots and rendezvous allows dogs as do most of the shoots and camps > I've been to here around Montana. Only problem has been those who don't > control dogs and you have dogs wandering through your camp and tents. Then > there is the occasional dog that wants to wander around the targets on the > range. Our small shoots and rondys around here will usually ask someone with > a repeatedly unmannerly dog to keep them under control or not to bring them > anymore. I usually bring only one of my three dogs at a time. It makes them > easier to control and it's easier to keep an eye on them. Dogs will be dogs, > they are friendly and curious, wanting to see everyone and be part of > everything. Of course when you are cooking or eating they want to help with > sampling the fare. > > My dogs tend to want to go with the kids. More action there then hanging out > with the old folks. You can also usually get the kids to take your dog off > somewhere for a good "romp", swim or walk. > > Seems like the eastern rondys had more restrictions than some of the western > ones. Some of the really big rendezvous, with a lot of public, have been the > only ones I've usually seen with dog restrictions, i.e., Alafia, Fort de > Chartre, etc. With that many people around I can understand why they would > restrict it. They can be a real problem. > > I find it most annoying when you are on the firing line and have to stop to > get a dog off the range or when they come in to your camp to steal food. > Don't mind the mannerly beggars who just sit with the mournful look, but have > had some snatch food out of the pan or off a plate. I am a real dog lover, > but again it can be very annoying to have uncontrolled dogs wandering through > everything. When you open it up to dogs for everyone, you take a chance of > getting the uncontrolled dogs. Most dogs I've seen at Rondy have been very > good, but it only takes one to ruin it for all. Hope this helps. > > YMOS > Ghosting Wolf > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:51:03 -0800 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi We do have the pictures of "hide" tipis, but I am interested in the first pictures of cloth tipis. Have both books you mention, but I like to be reminded of what I keep forgetting. I have a photo of 1854 showing the earliest cloth lodge, but no other pictures earlier. And the drawing and paintings of the earlier time to not show cloth, just hide tipis. I know some of you guys out there see what others are blind too. Keep the information coming. Did love the material on winter camping. Some of you may see that come up on the http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com site. The most winter camping in snow I have done is about a week with 3 feet of snow up the sides. Did not have problem with a fire as I had a full liner and full ozan. Kept me very warm and the snow melted down on the sides of the lodge. You can put a second lining inside your lodge hanging more vertically down. Less room to heat and move around in. I prefer the grass in-between the lining and cover and definitely a wind break. Luckily North Carolina does not have the wind of the plains. Linda Holley Mike Moore wrote: > Linda, > Off the top of my head, you might check out Karl Bodmer's water colors. > In "People of the First Man", (1833-4 Which has Prince Maximillian's journal in it > too) > Karl paints a couple hide tipis. One is a Assiniboin camp near Fort Union > (pages 70-71) and on page 96 a indian battle outside Fort MacKenzie has four. > It is good to hear about the ones on the list which have used their lodges for > extended > peroids. While I have used mine for up to a week and half, it is not the same as a > winter, > a year or more. Keep the lessons coming. As far as hide tipis, I think this subject > is like alot of others, the information is availible if we just look for it. Too > many times, > we see and soak up the the big picture (or pages of information) and do recall > the specifics on small things or topics. But hwen we look, we find alot of info that > > is helpful. > mike. > > p.s. George Catlin draws some lodges in his books "Lettters and Notes on the > Conditions of North American Indians" (two volumes, 1832-9), but don't remember > to what detail his are. I think a Crow lodge is shown in volume one and as some > one on this list mentioned eariler, a picture of two big lodges openned up to allow > alot of people 60 to 70 people (?) to be in them. > > Linda Holley wrote: > > > Interesting that the painting is 1860. Canvas was used in the 1850's. But how > > about earlier for pictures. like the 1830 or so. > > > > Linda Holley > > > > Mike Moore wrote: > > > > > I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference > > > between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a > > > copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the > > > flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows > > > the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on > > > edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting > > > determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be) > > > goes along way in how much detail goes into his work. > > > > > > "Best, Dianne" wrote: > > > > > > > Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more > > > > > > > > You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14' > > > > diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit). > > > > > > > > Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and > > > > canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing? > > > > > > > > In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a > > > > painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where > > > > all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of > > > > liberties with accuracy!) > > > > > > > > A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides > > > > weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where > > > > the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the > > > > front poles. > > > > > > > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:58:31 -0600 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs you wrote: But I won against the NMLRA. Linda What did you win against the NMLRA? YMOS Lanney Ratcliff - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:27:19 -0800 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs It could have been money, but what I wanted was a letter of apology from the President of NMLRA that they did indeed mess up and a change in rules for how information is advertised. I didn't want much. Just the acknowledgment of the problems. Ratcliff wrote: > you wrote: > But I won against the NMLRA. > > Linda > What did you win against the NMLRA? > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:22:12 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Oh Lord ! ! ! ! Here we go again ! Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:32:44 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Dianne, Don't let the naysayers stop you from bringing your dog(s) to camp. Like others have said, call and talk to the booshway and see if any special rules apply to them before coming. Things like droppings and in a case I had a few years back- a good friend Cecil brought a nice young dog to camp. His name was "Fuzzy". Good dog, mix breed I think, not too big, pretty well trained. That is until Fuzzy thought he needed to mark my bed roll. Good thing I had a oil cloth on top. Well, I informed Cecil, that if he did it again, I'd return the favor. Things like that make great camp stories and are one reason that some people don't like dogs in camp. If they don't growl too much, howl at the moon all night, bring them. Just beware, dogs are good tasting, especially the young ones. mike. "Best, Dianne" wrote: > Howdy again group. > > I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous > allow dogs on the grounds? > > My companion is period-correct (being little changed since the 12 Century) - > not my specific hound, you understand, but the breed in general - golly no, > my dog isn't that old. > > Dogs were also a part of camp life but I gather that many Rendezvous are > held in parks and I don't know what their rules are. > > I'd appreciate a straw vote on how often my hound could go a tradin with me. > > na-ya-whe > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #677 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.