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Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #750
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hist_text-digest       Monday, February 19 2001       Volume 01 : Number 750



In this issue:

-       MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS
-       Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark $10 Bill (item of interest)
-       MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!
-       Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!
-       Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS
-       Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!
-       Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!
-       Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS
-       Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS
-       Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!
-       Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS
-       Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!
-       Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!
-       Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!
-       Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS
-       Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS
-       Re: MtMan-List: Trapping with Kit Carson
-       Re: MtMan-List: Saws
-       Re: MtMan-List: Trapping with Kit Carson
-       Re: MtMan-List: Saws
-       Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS
-       Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!
-       Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS
-       Re: MtMan-List: Comforts (was: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!)
-       Re: MtMan-List: Saws
-       Re: MtMan-List: Comforts (was: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!)
-       MtMan-List: Site Update
-       Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:28:36 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS

  Was 'aqua fortis' commonly used as a stain for gunstocks ?  The reason I
ask is, I just wonder if nitric acid was commonly available to most
gunsmiths.  Some guns I've seen exhibit a somewhat orange color to them.
How did they get that color ?  John Kramer, where are you ?

Pendleton


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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:12:28 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark $10 Bill (item of interest)

In a message dated 2/18/01 2:54:27 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes:

<< Hardtack's method is the most cost effective.

If you really want an original:

Best price I've found:
 >>

Thanks John Kramer..... Think I'll go with Hardtacks method....<G> Nice to 
know they still exist though.

Magpie

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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:31:15 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!

Speaking of Lewis and Clark...

I've been looking over my 1814 map of Lewis and Clark's track (copied by 
Samuel Lewis from the original drawings of Wm. Clark) and guess what?!!? 
....there ain't no Mt Hood! ...and no Mt Adams either. He's got Mt Rainer, Mt 
St Helens, even Mt Jefferson but no Mt Hood or Adams. Those guys blind or 
what?!??

Now, I know it gets cloudy and rains a bit around here, but hell, I can see 
them hills from my camp once in awhile! Mebbe they just popped up after them 
boys headed back East....

Magpie

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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:24:20 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

In a message dated 2/18/2001 1:42:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dammiller@juno.com writes:

<< Why do we have to "Allow ourselves a little comfort"? If we are to
 re-enact, shouldn't we do things that were done  during the time period
 from which we are depicting?
  >>

I agree and we shouldn't allow ourselves any comforts that weren't available 
during the period we're depicting.  :o).

Greg Sefton

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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:31:10 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS

In a message dated 2/18/2001 5:28:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
yrrw@airmail.net writes:

<< Was 'aqua fortis' commonly used as a stain for gunstocks ?  The reason I
 ask is, I just wonder if nitric acid was commonly available to most
 gunsmiths.  Some guns I've seen exhibit a somewhat orange color to them.
 How did they get that color ?  John Kramer, where are you ?
  >>

Yes it was.  Nitric acid was also a major ingredient in browning solutions 
used by gunsmiths.  Boiling the metal after browning each coat turns it 
blue/black.

Greg efton

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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:32:57 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!

In a message dated 2/18/2001 6:32:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
SWcushing@aol.com writes:

<< Now, I know it gets cloudy and rains a bit around here, but hell, I can 
see 
 them hills from my camp once in awhile! Mebbe they just popped up after them 
 boys headed back East.... >>

They can't be there if they weren't documented :o).

Greg

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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:00:56 -0700
From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

Amen to that Brother Ole!

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
www.homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html

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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:03:33 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS

LP

Yep.

I've been using Eric Kettenburg's mix lately and have been very pleased, =
it=20
doesn't seem to exhibit the tendency to turn green under exposure to=20
sunlight as readily as the "commercial" preparations.  He is using a pure=
=20
iron and water in the mix, see his page for particulars.

http://www.firelocks.com/

I use it on wood, metal and leather with good results.

The orange color was more probably from a varnish/shellac/lacquer surface=
=20
finish.  If in the wood then more likely vermillion.  There are only a=20
couple hundred other possibilities which I would have to examine the=20
original you reference to be more certain.

John...


At 04:28 PM 2/18/01 -0800, you wrote:
>   Was 'aqua fortis' commonly used as a stain for gunstocks ?  The reaso=
n I
>ask is, I just wonder if nitric acid was commonly available to most
>gunsmiths.  Some guns I've seen exhibit a somewhat orange color to them.
>How did they get that color ?  John Kramer, where are you ?
>
>Pendleton
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:39:29 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS

John Kramer wrote :

I've been using Eric Kettenburg's mix lately and have been very pleased, it
doesn't seem to exhibit the tendency to turn green under exposure to
sunlight as readily as the "commercial" preparations.  He is using a pure
iron and water in the mix, see his page for particulars

John,
Thanks for the info !
  That's intersesting.  I have been using a mix that a buddy of mine makes.
It is 80% nitric acid, distilled water, and iron filings.  I don't know what
proportions, but it doesn't turn green at all.
LP


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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:42:51 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

In a message dated 2/18/1 03:06:22 PM, yrrw@airmail.net writes:

<< I don't think any of us

are suggesting we should go out and try to kill ourselves in the name of

historical authenticity, I know I'm not.    The trick is to find what

'comforts' were available in our own individual time period, and learn how

to use them in the ways that our forefathers used them.  If we don't, then

we are just enjoying ' dress up camping'.>>

Well done, Larry, and I am presuming "our own individual time period" means 
the era of the personna we have selected.
RJames

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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:49:58 EST
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS

> I've been using Eric Kettenburg's mix lately and have been very pleased, it 
>  doesn't seem to exhibit the tendency to turn green under exposure to 
>  sunlight as readily as the "commercial" preparations.  He is using a pure 
>  iron and water in the mix, see his page for particulars.

Here are a couple of test pieces I just did using Eric's stain.
I think I applied about 3 coats and heated them with a hi-temp heat gun.
They are currently sitting in the window for a long term test of color shift.
If anything, it should darken.

http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/Kett1.jpg
http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/Kett2.jpg

There is no unreacted nitric acid in Eric's mix.  It is essentially a 
solution of iron nitrate.......therefore, the finish does not have to be 
neutralized like others which still contain unreacted nitric acid.

Concerning the green color.........this is most usually found when chromium 
trioxide is used on maple, and the chromium reacts with the trace elements in 
the wood to form one of it's salts.......chrome green being one of the common 
ones.

Dave Kanger

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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:55:18 -0700
From: "David A. Miller" <dammiller@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

Thanks Larry,

That is what I was trying to say.  But I was blinded in my method with
which to use.

No those individuals didn't come here to be uncomfortable.  they came
knowing it was a wilderness and a harsh one at that.  No amount of
creature comfort would help and they know it.

What I mean't to say, was that we shouldn't invent things, take liberties
with things nor use things out of context of our particular time period. 


That was all.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:07:37 -0800 "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
writes:
> Richard James wrote :
> Now give me a reference
> for one or a group that were opposed to a little comfort.?????
> 
> Your point is well made.  As has been said before, those guys did 
> for a
> living what we do on weekends for fun.  They suffered hardships on a 
> daily
> basis that would put most of us down for the count.  I don't think 
> any of us
> are suggesting we should go out and try to kill ourselves in the 
> name of
> historical authenticity, I know I'm not.    The trick is to find 
> what
> 'comforts' were available in our own individual time period, and 
> learn how
> to use them in the ways that our forefathers used them.  If we 
> don't, then
> we are just enjoying ' dress up camping'.  For some that's what it 
> is, and
> that's OK.  When my wife goes with me to club rendezvous etc., 
> that's what
> we are doing, but let's not claim that what is there is how it was 
> in the
> mountains.  In my opinion, that just isn't right.  That's how the 
> term
> "Rendezvous Myth"  came to be.
> 
> Pendleton
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: 
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:04:17 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!

Greg wrote:

<< Now, I know it gets cloudy and rains a bit around here, but hell, I can
see
 them hills from my camp once in awhile! Mebbe they just popped up after
them
 boys headed back East.... >>

They can't be there if they weren't documented :o).

Greg


Although we can see you little chatroom :o) icon,  the sarcasm of this
comment still comes through clearly enough.  Your disdain for those of us
who value strong documentation is well established and the tone of many of
your previous posts on this subject precludes the assumption of simple
humorous intent.  Your position is common enough and you and the others who
share it are welcome to it.
In responding to this post I know that I am speaking for a number of others,
most of whom understand that a certain height is required to talk down to
people.
If you intent was, indeed, simply a little harmless humor you must remember
that you have not established much of a sense of humor with many of us.  In
any event, this is the first and only post I will make on the subject as I
intend to take the position that Dunbar did in talking with his captors.
Lanney Ratcliff




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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:27:15 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

Well done, Larry, and I am presuming "our own individual time period" means 
the era of the personna we have selected.
RJames

  Yes Sir Absolutely !

Pendleton


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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:23:51 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS

Dave,

I've not encountered old references to chromium trioxide.  A few to Green=
=20
Cinnabar (chromium dioxide) in late period writing.  Do you have early=20
references?  Mostly curious.  I've avoided chrome derivatives, and have=20
little to no experience with them.

The stuff I've seen go green was claimed as an old Aqua Fortis based=20
preparation, and speculation has been it was the trace elements in the=20
modern steel formulations and perhaps the chemically treated water that w=
as=20
used to make the iron nitrate that caused the color change.  This could=20
cast a whole new light on the lies we've been told.

Everything I've tried Eric's stuff on has worked out well.

John...


At 08:49 PM 2/18/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Concerning the green color.........this is most usually found when chrom=
ium
>trioxide is used on maple, and the chromium reacts with the trace elemen=
ts in
>the wood to form one of it's salts.......chrome green being one of the c=
ommon
>ones.
>
>Dave Kanger

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:34:33 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS

John Kramer wrote :
The stuff I've seen go green was claimed as an old Aqua Fortis based
preparation, and speculation has been it was the trace elements in the
modern steel formulations and perhaps the chemically treated water that was
used to make the iron nitrate that caused the color change.  This could
cast a whole new light on the lies we've been told.

John,
  The guy who mixes the stuff I use says that if you use chemically treated
water, the wood will turn green everytime.  I don't claim to know, but
that's what he says.

Pendleton



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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:25:36 EST
From: MarkLoader@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping with Kit Carson

- --part1_24.1153c2a9.27c1fa40_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In the book "The Life of Jim Baker 1818-1898" by Nolie Mumey page 81 In the 
summer of 1852 Baker received an invitation from Kit Carson as did 17 other 
surveying mountain men for one last hooray and trapping expedition.  They 
left Carson's ranch in New Mexico and traveled thru North Park and South 
Park, along the South and North Platte, the Green, Yampa, Little Snake, Wind, 
Sweetwater and the Arkansas Rivers before returning to his ranch for some 
good old mountain man contests.  Does any one know of othe sorces of 
information?   
Thanks Roadkill

- --part1_24.1153c2a9.27c1fa40_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In the book "The Life of Jim Baker 1818-1898" by Nolie Mumey page 81 In the 
<BR>summer of 1852 Baker received an invitation from Kit Carson as did 17 other 
<BR>surveying mountain men for one last hooray and trapping expedition. &nbsp;They 
<BR>left Carson's ranch in New Mexico and traveled thru North Park and South 
<BR>Park, along the South and North Platte, the Green, Yampa, Little Snake, Wind, 
<BR>Sweetwater and the Arkansas Rivers before returning to his ranch for some 
<BR>good old mountain man contests. &nbsp;Does any one know of othe sorces of 
<BR>information? &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>Thanks Roadkill</FONT></HTML>

- --part1_24.1153c2a9.27c1fa40_boundary--

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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:31:38 -0500
From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws

John,

Thanks for the insight. The Smith's Key sounds like an
excellent reference book!  I was aware that there were
many styles of saws available at that time, and didn't 
mind hearing a bit of speculation on which were for trade
goods, but you're right, we will likely never know for sure.
Most of the saws are rather specialized, but if I were
outfitting a larger party (per the recent dialog) I might
be inclined to include a small frame saw.

Although I didn't consider a frame saw as "exotic tooling",
I've yet to find a reference to their use in RMFT, but there
might be a thin spot in the logic that they were necessarily
rare then, just because originals are rare today.  Although
it might be a stretch, I had considered Santa Fe as representing
the southern edge of the mountain west. I agree with you that
just because something was available, not everyone carried same.
There seems to be a belief common to some folks that if an item 
was on a bill of trade goods at the right place and time, then 
by george, everyone ought to carry one. <G>  

Anyways, I thought a dialog about a particular piece of equipment
was better fodder than some of the recent postings.  Thanks for
joining in!

Tom
   

John Kramer wrote:
> 
> Tom & Barney,
> 
> We return to questions for which there are no hard answers.
> 
> I can dispel some misconceptions before his thread gets out of hand with
> idle speculation.
> 
> Most of this information is from Smith's Key to Sheffield Manufactories
> 1816, NO ---THERE IS NO ISBN.
> 
> First frame saws were not only made as "buck" saws which you reference
> below they were also made with fine blades "turning saws" and were the
> period equivalent of bandsaws capable of intricate work.  Some blades were
> very thin and only a few inches long, some were heavy and 7 feet
> long.  Other framed saws include hacksaws, coping saws and fret saws which
> were all known.
> 
> My opinion is that if one wants to carry exotic tooling/accessories today
> it should be an original of or before the period.  Originals are very rare
> hence the probability of one being there then is about the same as
> now.  Reproductions of uncommon items conveys a false perspective as to
> what was.
> > 
> What did Jedidiah Smith have in his chest?  I don't know.  Joseph Smith
> (the engraver not the prophet) proves that Parkman didn't tell us much.
> 
> Unless someone who knows something about tools can examine the chest and
> write a monograph we will never know.  Photos, engravings, paintings or
> sketches would be nice, I don't know of any availability of same.
> 
> John...
>

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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:12:39 EST
From: Hawkengun@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping with Kit Carson

"I delivered the wagons and goods to Mr. [Lucien] Maxwell and remained here 
[in Rayado, NM] until March, 1852.
Maxwell and I now rigged up a party of eighteen men to go trapping, I taking 
charge of them.  We went to the Balla [Bayou] Salado, and down the South Fork 
[of the Platte] to the plains; through the plains of Laramie River to the New 
Park, trapped it to the Old Park, trapped it again, then again to the Balla 
Salado, then on the Arkansas where it comes out of the mountain; we then 
followed it home under the mountain, thence home to the Rayado, through the 
Rincon Mountains, having made a very good hunt."

KIT CARSON'S AUTOBIOGRAPHY, ed. Milo Quaife, Lincoln, 1966: 146.

Fur trade scolar and Carson biographer Dr. Harvey Carter stated, "There is no 
clue to the identity of the other members..." DEAR OLD DIT; THE HISTORICAL 
KIT CARSON, Norman, 1968: 132.

I am interested to know where Baker's biographer got the info that Baker was 
one of the 'eighteen'.

John R. Sweet

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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:40:59 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws

Tom,

If you will read my posting in the order first written without deletions=20
you will note I am referring to the folding combination tools with saw as=
=20
"exotic": not framed saws which were common in a wide array of size & for=
m;=20
common to the period not necessarily to trappers.

Most framed saws were provided as bare blades and modern Swedish bow saw=20
blades are a different tooth pattern than was known then (just in case=20
someone has a brain storm).

What Jed Smith had is purely speculation and could have been metal cuttin=
g=20
saws as readily as wood cutting saws.   Just because he had a few when he=
=20
went under still doesn't make any type of saw an item common to a trapper=
s=20
equipage.  Think about where he was and what he was doing when he died.

What saws would be of best utility to a trapper?  Why?  Careful, modern=20
perceptions can lead period speculations astray.

In a primitive Rocky Mountain camp where we scavenge for wood a cross cut=
=20
saw for gathering firewood would be very inappropriate.  In a public camp=
=20
where we must burn the wain cuttings from a saw mill one would, along wit=
h=20
a splitting tool (axe or maul), be nearly a necessity regardless of wheth=
er=20
appropriate.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:09:11 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS

In a message dated 2/18/2001 8:37:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
yrrw@airmail.net writes:

<< That's intersesting.  I have been using a mix that a buddy of mine makes.
 It is 80% nitric acid, distilled water, and iron filings.  I don't know what
 proportions, but it doesn't turn green at all.
 LP >>

"Distilled water" is important; or if you want to be even more careful, use 
deionized water.  Tap or well water often has impurities in it that can 
change the outcome of these formulae.  If you can't get either, catch rain 
water.

Greg Sefton

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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:14:31 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!

In a message dated 2/18/2001 9:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
amm1585@hyperusa.com writes:

<< If you intent was, indeed, simply a little harmless humor you must remember
 that you have not established much of a sense of humor with many of us.  In
 any event, this is the first and only post I will make on the subject as I
 intend to take the position that Dunbar did in talking with his captors.
 Lanney Ratcliff >>

Jeez, where's your sense of humor, Lanney.  Chill out!!!  Most think I have a 
good sense of humor.  Why are you threatened by another viewpoint???

Greg Sefton

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:21:46 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AQUA FORTIS

The chrome is called trivalent, CR3 which is green.  (as opposed to 
hexavalent Cr6 which is orange)  Many steel formulations have some CR in them 
along with molybdenum.  The srong oxidizer in the nitric acid could form a 
green color but I've not seen it.  It's important to let all the ingredients 
in your browning formula react prior to use which shouldn't take long with 
nitric.  One of my formulas from the Swiss federal Armory in the mid to late 
1800's calls for fuming nitric.  One of my favorites.  I suggest Angiers book 
Firearm Blueing & Browning.

Greg Sefton

In a message dated 2/18/2001 10:26:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
kramer@kramerize.com writes:

<< I've not encountered old references to chromium trioxide.  A few to Green 
 Cinnabar (chromium dioxide) in late period writing.  Do you have early 
 references?  Mostly curious.  I've avoided chrome derivatives, and have 
 little to no experience with them.
 
 The stuff I've seen go green was claimed as an old Aqua Fortis based 
 preparation, and speculation has been it was the trace elements in the 
 modern steel formulations and perhaps the chemically treated water that was 
 used to make the iron nitrate that caused the color change.  This could 
 cast a whole new light on the lies we've been told. >>


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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:34:57 -0700
From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Comforts (was: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!)

Most reenactors, when they're not reenacting, sleep every night on a soft 
bed in a warm house. They'll do what they have to, to get a good night's 
sleep at rendezvous, and nobody should give them a hard time for that; it's 
all about having fun, isn't it? Darn tough to have fun when your back is 
killing you and/or you didn't get any sleep.

So what's the *real* problem with the four poster bed/air mattress/tent 
stove/whatever? It's when it is being claimed that these 'survival aids' 
were present in the historic setting that the rendezvous is supposedly 
portraying. If they're out of sight, then there should be no problem.

By the way, the fur traders were *used* to sleeping on the hard ground, 
because they did it all the time. I recall reading someone's memoirs (John 
Macdonald of Garth?), in which he tells about his return to civilization. 
After months of paddling and portaging, he and his companions arrived at an 
inn, to spend their first night in a "proper" bed after many years in the 
fur trade. Despite their best efforts, they all ended up sleeping on the 
floor, because the bed was just too soft for them. (Been there, done 
that--but not lately!)

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred



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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:37:41 -0700
From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws

Here are some saws that were used in the Canadian fur trade:

crosscut saw (1774; Tyrrell, 112-113)
hand saws (1786; Duckworth, 120-122)
"files" (blades?) for handsaws, crosscut saws, pit saws (1810; Thompson & 
Belyea, 255-257)
hand saw (1820; Hood, 134)
crosscut saws, pit saws, tennon saws, turning hand saws, hand saws (1820; 
Simpson, 158)

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:10:10 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Comforts (was: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!)

> So what's the *real* problem with the four poster bed/air mattress/tent
> stove/whatever?  If they're out of sight, then there should be no problem.


How right you are Angela.  When I was doing the 'Vous by myself, it really
didn't matter what I slept on. Being retired NAvy, with 12 years with the
USMC as a Corpsman, I was kinda used to sleeping in holes, on the ground,
etc...  HOWEVER... when I remarried, and my wife started doing the 'Vous
with me... heh... whole different story.  She wanted a porta-potty for the
tent (not a chamber pot), and I made her a period double bed with rope
springs, period hardware, etc... We use the double bed mattress off our
guest room bed... Tried an air mattress, but she is 5'1", 120#, and I am
6'4, 290#... I'd flop into bed and she'd get air born!!!  *LAUGHS*  Kinda
funny when you see her flying through the air... Ok... guess you had to be
there to see it... :) Everything outside the tent is period correct,
however....

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:55:22 -0500
From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Site Update

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Excuse the interruption & Cross Posting
 I did a BIG site update with new knives, hawks and even managed to hold =
onto a pipehawk long enough to get it on the site.    =
http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
Thanks for your time
D


      "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
       Knives and Iron Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

   "Knowing how is just the beginning."

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Excuse the interruption &amp; Cross=20
Posting</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;I did a BIG site update with new =
knives,=20
hawks and even managed to hold onto a pipehawk long enough to get it on =
the=20
site.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for your time</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Abair ach =
beagan is=20
abair gu math=20
e"<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
DOUBLE=20
EDGE FORGE<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Knives and Iron=20
Accouterments<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; "Knowing how is just the=20
beginning."</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:02:42 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!

> They can't be there if they weren't documented :o).
>
> Greg

Finally!

Of course they were finally documented as being there during the RMFT era.
Not as being a common item back east that any one with the capabilities
would have outside his cabin for his increased pleasure. <G> So I guess it's
ok to have a Mt. Hood in your camp but only if your West of the Rockies and
camped close to the Pacific.

Capt. Lahti'



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