From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #772 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, March 26 2001 Volume 01 : Number 772 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: 1831 powder horn info -       Re: MtMan-List: 1831 powder horn info -       MtMan-List: Iroquois -       Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois -       MtMan-List: 1831 powderhorns and other questionable items. -       Re: MtMan-List: 1831 powder horn info -       Re: MtMan-List: 1831 powderhorns and other questionable items. -       Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Gone Under -       Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois -       Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Gone Under -       MtMan-List: billingsgazette.com archive -       Re: MtMan-List: 1820-1840 Rifle sources? -       MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:54:26 -0500 (EST) From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1831 powder horn info I bought a black horn at a gunshow in Burley, Idaho about 20 years ago. The guy wanted $20 - would let it go for $15. He still had it at the end of the show so I got it for ten. It had brass tacks holding the wooden plug in place. For a test I pulled one of them and to my delight it had a square brass shank - not the steel one we see today. The old, OLD tacks were cast in a single piece - all brass, square tapered shank. Conclusion: for ten bucks I had bought an original buffalo-horn powder-horn from the 1800s. So . . . 'tis possible Richard James - ---------------------- Like Dick says, one would have to look at it, but there may be a slim chance it's an old one. There are many stories about folks picking old powder horns at strange places for next to nothing. Concho Smith that's on this list use to buy right-away for the state of Pennsylvaina Highway Dept. and every once in a while would come up with some interesting old horns, tools, guns, etc., usually for next to nothing or nothing. He made a nice side-line business out of this stuff, when I was still in business he was a good supplier for antique items to sell, of course he high graded what he kept, butt head. See if the gentleman will send you some pictures or even loan you the horn for a closer look, interesting. Thanks for your time, take care. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 21:18:34 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1831 powder horn info Angela, It is real hard to tell about the age of a powder horn. As has been said, square shanked tacks are a indication also whether it has been scaped smooth, and whether the throut has been drilled or burned out. But there are a lot of guys out there who can do all the right things in making a horn that can fool just about anybody. I've seen horns in museums that didn't look right to me. I don't know who you would get to look at it to verify the age of it. Just my $.02 Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 21:08:48 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois I have of late developed an interest in the Iroquois of the West, the original Free Men. Were these people actually of the five tribes or were they more of a conglomeration of Eastern/Canadian tribes adopted under the Iroquois name? I believe they had a great impact on the fur trade by their experience as hunters, trappers and warriors. How did they dress? (Interestingly, Millers drawing that I have seen of an Iroquois is one of the few men he shows in side seem instead of pucker toed mocs). Did they come West with the English or by many trails? In short, is there any primary or secondary sources that give good details about these people? WY - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 00:46:19 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois In a message dated 3/24/1 09:02:57 PM, leona3@sourceoneinternet.com writes: << Did they come West with the English or by many trails?>> They* were caught, as you know, on the losing side in the American Revolution and maintained their allegance to Britain as they had since the earliest conflicts between English and French (who were allied with the Huron and others). Many had been employed for generations by Hudson's Bay and traveled west with them - first across the "Lakes" country and then south into and on both sides of the Rockies. When Peter Ogden has his run in with Johnston Gardner and the other Americans in May 1825 on the Weber River (8 miles east of here) it was largely Iroquois that defected and came over to the Americans. One of the journalists tells of meeting them in the mountans some time later AFTER they had expended all the gains gotten from trading with the Americans on the Weber and on Henry's Fork a month an a half later. Significant also is that these Iroquois were not solitary but brought their wives and youngsters with them. Easy to see how some of the trappers could end up trading for a good pair of pucker-toes. Richard James *they: some - not all - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:19:40 -0500 (EST) From: Buck Conner Subject: MtMan-List: 1831 powderhorns and other questionable items. It is real hard to tell about the age of a powder horn. As has been said, square shanked tacks are a indication also whether it has been scaped smooth, and whether the throut has been drilled or burned out....... There are a lot of guys out there who can do all the right things in making a horn that can fool just about anybody.... Just my $.02 Pendleton - ---------------------- Larry, You mentioning folks making hard to detect items (horns, etc.), years ago I let a couple of young adult 1/2 breed Blackfoot kids use an old 2000 sq. ft. fruit storgae bldg. to make Indian crafts - that's when Praire Edge was going hot and heavy. Anyway I was at a museum outside of Denver and see some of their work but in poor condition with a sign of being collected before turn of the century ! A few weeks later I'm changing irrigation pipe down by the creek on our property and see a pair of mocs staked in the water with dirt wasting through them ! I get off the tractor and head up to the fruit bldg and notice another pair of old dirty mocs staked on the tin roof ! Bottom line I was furnishing a work area for a couple of guys making good fake antiques and doing quite well at it. I ran them off and notified the couple of museums I knew about that had their stuff, don't know what they paid for their wares, but was shocked at the museum's staff attitude in telling me "oh well, they are good looking pieces" and they are still on display today after twenty years. How much of the "original" pieces we see are really "original" ? Thanks for your time, take care. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:50:17 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1831 powder horn info can you scan in a few pictures of the horn and drop them to me offline and i'll see if i can tell you anything just from the pictures--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:38:37 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1831 powderhorns and other questionable items. Buck wrote : How much of the "original" pieces we see are really "original" ? Buck, That is a real good story about arti-fakes. I think many of today's museum currators are totally unaware that there are many of us who have studied the building techniques of our forefathers close enough that we can construct accoutrements exactly in the manner of the 18th and 19th century. Also, as you said, there are many who don't seem to care if the items they have are real or not, so long as they are of the same construction. I see firearms at almost every museum I go to that do not look right to me. I'm certainly no expert on such things, but I can tell honest wear from deliberate abuse. There is a very large flea market near me where such things are for sale every month. Frankly I think it is a shame. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:44:10 EST From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Gone Under - --part1_da.3c6483d.27efdcca_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This the information upon returning from a Jim Baker Party camp out. Your Friend and Brother Mark "Roadkill" Loader Author Terry C. Johnston died Sunday morning. The funeral is scheduled for 10 a.m., Wednesday, March 28 at the Michelotti, Sawyers and Nordquist Funeral Home, 1001 Alderson Avenue, Billings, Montana (Phone 406 252-3417) Viewing begins at the funeral home 6 p.m., Monday.=A0 Interment will be at Yellowstone Valley Memorial Park, Billings. In lieu of flowers you may donate to the Terry C. Johnston Memorial Scholarship Fund, care of, Montana State University Billings Foundation, 1500 N. 30th St., Billings, MT 59101-0298 Jim Wirshborn msws@msws.net - --part1_da.3c6483d.27efdcca_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This the information upon= returning from a Jim Baker Party camp out.
Your Friend and Brother Mark "Roadkill" Loader
Author Terry C. Johnston died Sunday morning.

The funeral is scheduled for 10 a.m., Wednesday, March 28 at the
Michelotti, Sawyers and Nordquist Funeral Home, 1001 Alderson Avenue,
Billings, Montana (Phone 406 252-3417)

Viewing begins at the funeral home 6 p.m., Monday.=A0 Interment will be=20= at
Yellowstone Valley Memorial Park, Billings.

In lieu of flowers you may donate to the Terry C. Johnston Memorial
Scholarship Fund, care of, Montana State University Billings Foundation,
1500 N. 30th St., Billings, MT 59101-0298

Jim Wirshborn
msws@msws.net



- --part1_da.3c6483d.27efdcca_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 23:12:08 -0600 From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois On Sat, 24 Mar 2001 21:08:48 -0700 "Gretchen Ormond" writes: > I have of late developed an interest in the Iroquois of the West, the > original Free Men....... I believe they had a great impact on the > fur trade by their experience as hunters, trappers and warriors. > How did they dress?... .Did they come West with the English > or by many trails? > ........primary or secondary sources....? >> WY There is quite a bit of data about the Iroquois and their involvement in the fur trade in the first sixty pages of "Children of the Fur Trade, Forgotten Metis of the Pacific Northwest" by John C. Jackson. Of the 52 tribes mentioned is this book, more is written about the Iroquois than any of the other Indian tribes. On page 18, there is a reproduction of a sketch of Baptiste, Iroquois Bowman, 1845-a pencil sketch by H. J. Warre, National Archives of Canada, c-55333. Here's one tidbit of data from page 19: " Because they traditionally traveled afar to hunt, Iroquois attracted the attention of Montreal recruiters shopping for skilled voyageurs, or beaver trappers. Brought to the greater northwest under fur company auspices, Iroquois hunters soon spread over the beaver streams. They became the missionaries of the new gospel of the steel trap and the communion of castoreum baiting. (31) The impact of that technology set Indian against Indian. "Iroquois and Cree hunters found different paths between worlds in collision. The Cree stayed close to the basal exchange, a skin for a skin. The Iroquois were searching for something more. " This book has an extensive bibliography. Victoria - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 01:33:17 EST From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Gone Under - --part1_7e.12bffdab.27f03cad_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Thank you for the update. What a sad sad day, for us anyway. He's in a better more peaceful place now. Like somebody said on the list earlier, maybe God wanted a good storyteller around. The fires will burn a little dimmer around this camp. Will be lookin forward to seein Terry on the other side. Sleeps loudly - --part1_7e.12bffdab.27f03cad_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Thank you for the update.  What a sad sad day, for us anyway.  He's in
a better more peaceful place now.   Like somebody said on the list earlier,  
maybe God wanted a good storyteller around.   The fires will burn a little
dimmer around this camp.   Will be lookin forward to seein Terry on the other
side.

Sleeps loudly


- --part1_7e.12bffdab.27f03cad_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 05:30:07 -0600 From: Subject: MtMan-List: billingsgazette.com archive Your friend has forwarded you this URL from the Billings Gazette website: billingsgazette.com archive http://www.billingsgazette.com/archive.php?section=local&display=rednews/2001/03/26/build/local/author.inc Additional Comments: From the Billings,Montana Gazette - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 06:16:20 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1820-1840 Rifle sources? Jerry, Try Bob Lieneman at (303) 466-5693. He makes a very good J. Henry. mike. jerry strobel wrote: > I have a question. Is there not anyone building J. Henry or Henry Deringer > Lancaster(American) styled trade rifles that were shipped west from N.Y. and > Philadelphia? Yes I am aware of the builders of Henry english trade rifles, > But are there builders of the other trade rifles the lancaster styled that > went west with Ashley and Henry before 1830? Would I have to custom order > from a reputable riflesmith? please all help and information will be > appreciated and put to good use. Thank you all for your time and > cooperation Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:49:58 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega In a message dated 3/21/01 8:55:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, kramer@kramerize.com writes: << now when I soak it up I have to shim the bands or they are insufficient to seize the staves, the iron did not stretch. Interesting theory about the wood shrinking. Coming form John it's probably right, but I've found the thin metal bands (hoops) stretch too. When the wood swells up when wet, it puts tremendous pressure on the iron / steel hops. Steel DOES stretch! Be that as it may, the secret of keeping your barrel from leaking is keeping the hoops tight when the barrel is wet. This causes the wood to have to swell against itself, thus sealing the "cracks" between staves. John goes on to suggest tightening the hoops by driving them up the taper of the barrel. This is what Granddad did to his cider & vinegar barrels umpteen years ago. Most hoops have a nail in them somewhere to keep hem from falling off as they stretch & the wood shrinks -- in other words, the nails in the hoops keep the barrels / kegs from falling apart. It's not uncommon to have to remove the nail when tightening the hoop. Don't loose that nail! It's short enough it won't go through the staves. I've often thought that heat shrinking the hoops might be the answer to keeping them where they belong on the barrel. Though I've never come across that being done, the black smiths knew the procedure -- it's the same one they used to put the iron tires on the wagon wheels or to refit a wagon "tire". Maybe the cost of shrinking the bands exceeded the price of a new barrel? Granddad was a black smith, and yet there were numerous piles of barrel staves scattered around his farm -- maybe it didn't work or possibly the stave piles were the result of failed hoops. I do remember a hoop breaking on a vinegar barrel once when I was visiting him -- made a heck of a racket! A friend used to think the trick was put salt in his barrel to keep the water semi fresh. When he was ready to use the barrel, he dumped it, rinsed it out & refilled with fresh water. Nice idea, but the salt rusted his hoops out in about 5 years & left him with a pile of staves. NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:54:31 -0800 From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega Coopers were a dime a dozen in the old days. Barrels were the most common kind of shipping material and wood was cheap. Wood cost no more than the effort to collect it. Think of the barrel as cardboard boxes. There wasn't much of an effort to reuse barrels. Usually they went one way and ended up as firewood after they were opened. Seems odd to me but this is what I was told at Williamsburg. Larry Huber - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 1:49 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega > In a message dated 3/21/01 8:55:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, > kramer@kramerize.com writes: > > << now when I soak it up I have to shim the bands or they are insufficient > to seize the staves, the iron did not stretch. > > Interesting theory about the wood shrinking. Coming form John it's probably > right, but I've found the thin metal bands (hoops) stretch too. When the > wood swells up when wet, it puts tremendous pressure on the iron / steel > hops. Steel DOES stretch! Be that as it may, the secret of keeping your > barrel from leaking is keeping the hoops tight when the barrel is wet. This > causes the wood to have to swell against itself, thus sealing the "cracks" > between staves. John goes on to suggest tightening the hoops by driving them > up the taper of the barrel. This is what Granddad did to his cider & vinegar > barrels umpteen years ago. Most hoops have a nail in them somewhere to keep > hem from falling off as they stretch & the wood shrinks -- in other words, > the nails in the hoops keep the barrels / kegs from falling apart. It's not > uncommon to have to remove the nail when tightening the hoop. Don't loose > that nail! It's short enough it won't go through the staves. I've often > thought that heat shrinking the hoops might be the answer to keeping them > where they belong on the barrel. Though I've never come across that being > done, the black smiths knew the procedure -- it's the same one they used to > put the iron tires on the wagon wheels or to refit a wagon "tire". Maybe the > cost of shrinking the bands exceeded the price of a new barrel? Granddad was > a black smith, and yet there were numerous piles of barrel staves scattered > around his farm -- maybe it didn't work or possibly the stave piles were the > result of failed hoops. I do remember a hoop breaking on a vinegar barrel > once when I was visiting him -- made a heck of a racket! A friend used to > think the trick was put salt in his barrel to keep the water semi fresh. > When he was ready to use the barrel, he dumped it, rinsed it out & refilled > with fresh water. Nice idea, but the salt rusted his hoops out in about 5 > years & left him with a pile of staves. > > NM > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #772 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.