From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #870 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, October 1 2001 Volume 01 : Number 870 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: e-mail test -       Re: MtMan-List: e-mail test -       Re: MtMan-List: e-mail test -       Re: MtMan-List: e-mail test -       MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Test Question -       Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's -       MtMan-List: Horses & Gunfire ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:02:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: e-mail test Where the Hell is my e-mail! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 02:12:12 EDT From: Bublitz@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: e-mail test - --part1_114.543629a.28e6c03c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron, I think things are just a tad slow lately. hardtack - --part1_114.543629a.28e6c03c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron, I think things are just a tad slow lately.   hardtack - --part1_114.543629a.28e6c03c_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 06:39:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: e-mail test Hardtack, Thanks for the reply. I had received no e-mail from any source for several days on this address. Thought maybe something was wrong on my end. Appreciate your response. DOG - --- Bublitz@aol.com wrote: > Ron, I think things are just a tad slow lately. > hardtack > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:29:48 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: e-mail test Right the Hell Here! Capt. Lahti' "Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronald Schrotter To: hist list Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 10:02 PM Subject: MtMan-List: e-mail test > Where the Hell is my e-mail! > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. > http://phone.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:00:02 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Test Question Good morning boy and girls, The question for the day is: Can anyone tell me what a "surtout" is? The only hint I'll offer is, Donald McKenzie had one.... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:37:35 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question Sirtout: a man's coat to be worn outside his other garments... that close? Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:39:02 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question oops, sorry for the misspelling; was typing in the darkness of day LOL. Surtout: a man's coat to be worn outside his other garments... that close? Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:44:18 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's Hallo the List, Last year or so, there was a discussion of whether or not there were bark canoes west of the Cascades, or even west of the Rockies, and in particular, on the Columbia River. The consensus was that there is no proof.... In the book "Siskiyou Trail", Alex Ross, (an Astorian who switched to the NW Company shortly after McDougall betrayed Astor) is cited as saying..." he could not convince his new superiors that the sawed or split cedar boats of the Astorians were better on the broad Columbia than the traditional birch rind canoes which the Nor'westers brought from Athabaska." So..... it would appear, at least in 1813, there were bark canoe's west of the Cascades, and because NW Co. had Spokane House in what is now Washington State, I would think bark canoes would be somewhat common there too.... Don't gotta make a dug out, or bateau now..... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:48:59 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question In a message dated 9/30/01 9:39:37 AM, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: << Surtout: a man's coat to be worn outside his other garments... that close? Barney >> Pretty close Barney..... but what was it used for? Or, better still, what was McKenzie's made of, and used for? Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:50:11 -0500 From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question Hey Magpie, The word "surtout" is not in my Noah Webster 1828 dictionary of the English language. Please don't keep us dangling. Victoria On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:00:02 EDT SWcushing@aol.com writes: > Good morning boy and girls, > > The question for the day is: Can anyone tell me what a "surtout" is? > The only > hint I'll offer is, Donald McKenzie had one.... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:55:05 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question Victoria, It IS in the online version... here's the link Websters 1828. Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:00:19 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question In a message dated 9/30/01 9:51:27 AM, vapate@juno.com writes: << Please don't keep us dangling. Victoria >> Just for you,Victoria... McKenzie was....."an impressive figure in his elkskin surtout, a sort of arrowproof armor along the lines of the leather cuirasses (huh?) worn earlier by Califonia's soldadoes de cuero." Never heard of such a thing either.... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:01:19 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question In a message dated 9/30/01 9:56:07 AM, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: << Victoria, It IS in the online version... here's the link Websters 1828. Barney >> Hey......this isn't an OPEN BOOK TEST! Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:08:03 -0500 From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question I found the word "surcoat" in Webster's 1828 dictionary. Surcoat, n. [Fr. SUR and Eng. COAT.] A short coat worn over the other clothes. Victoria On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:39:02 EDT LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: > oops, sorry for the misspelling; was typing in the darkness of day > LOL. > > Surtout: a man's coat to be worn outside his other garments... that > close? > Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:13:53 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question Sorry about that Magpie, but with these senior moments coming so much more often, the printed word is what I got Only thing I can find is "de cuero" = Leather Goods Here's a link I have found very useful.. Translating Dictionaries Barn - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:19:50 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question Soldado = Soldierm so it would be Soldier of Leather. Can't find anything for cuirasses. Heres another (IMO) very useful link AltaVista - World - BabelFish Translation Barn - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:22:35 -0500 From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question > > Just for you,Victoria... Thanks, Magpie. > > McKenzie was....."an impressive figure in his elkskin surtout, There is an obvious difference in the spelling of the word in the description and the dictionary spelling, but I think we all get the point. a > sort of arrowproof armor along the lines of the leather cuirasses (huh?) > worn earlier by Califonia's soldadoes de cuero." > Never heard of such a thing either.... I thought everybody knew what a cuirass is. It is a breast-plate, made of iron plate and covers the body from neck to waist area. Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:51:02 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question Victoria, Not sure which version of the 1828 you are using, but online I entered it and it came back 'surtout' just as Magpie spelled it. I know some list members have the CD-Rom version; if you are one of those, maybe there is an update available with new additions, revisions, etc. Please forgive me if this seems contrary; just trying to be helpful. Barn - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:09:35 -0500 From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:51:02 EDT LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: > Victoria, Not sure which version of the 1828 you are using, but > online I entered it and it came back 'surtout' just as Magpie spelled it. I > know some list members have the CD-Rom version; if you are one of those, maybe > there is an update available with new additions, revisions, etc. Please forgive me > if this seems contrary; just trying to be helpful. Barn > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:31:35 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's Magpie, Glad you got to hear some bulging this weekend. I think we got a fair chance of getting our pantaloons bloody. As to your bark canoes, Rick Lindsey provided me with a copy of a several page paper he had put together which discusses the bark canoes used by the Indians of the upper Columbia/BC/Coeur de Alene area. They weren't birch but used other peel-able barks (can't remember what brand at the moment but it was something like elm). The design varied a bit from the classic "birch bark" shape of the general Great Lakes area (back east) in that the bow and stern were pointed at the bottom and came straight back at quite an angel not unlike the ends of my bateau would look if upside down. They were quite roomy and came to take on a bit of "rocker" after some use from the weigh of the passengers and cargo. They were reported to have been used to ferry across the Columbia at places like Kettle Falls, etc. Keep pestering me and I'll try to find the paper and share it with you this next weekend. YMOS Capt. Lahti' "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:28:29 -0400 From: manbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question Cuirass - (kwi-ras) or Queer-ass for those of us who ar phonetically challenged. It is the leather breast and back armor worn by Roman Soldiers. If you saw "Gladiator" you saw plenty of cuirasses. Manbear SWcushing@aol.com wrote: leather cuirasses (huh?) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:36:22 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question > Pretty close Barney..... but what was it used for? Or, better still, what was > McKenzie's made of, and used for? Magpie, I always thougth it was a funny name for an overcoat. Probably made of wool finished smooth rather than with a lot of knap but there must have been lots of materials used depending on the price. And I am under the impression that such outer coats were were commonly worn over normal dress which would have consisted of the leg wear, shirt, vest or weskit and coat. The Surtout goes over all that just as a Great Coat would. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:36:06 -0500 From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question Sorry for the last post. I had a senior moment and I'm not a senior! So that's what it is like. On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:51:02 EDT LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: > Victoria, Not sure which version of the 1828 you are using, but > online I entered it and it came back 'surtout' just as Magpie spelled it. I > know some list members have the CD-Rom version; if you are one > of those, maybe there is an update available with new additions, >revisions, etc. I've had my 1828 for almost 20 years. I don't have the CD-Rom version simply because I haven't been willing to forgo the pleasure of handling one of my most treasured books. Looks like I'll have to update so I can stay up with this list. >Please forgive me if this seems contrary; You contrary?? Never. Magpie is a different story. > just trying to be helpful. As always. Victoria > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:46:02 -0600 From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's If Magpie can hear himself bulging I'm sure that he will get his pantaloons bloody. Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf - ----- Original Message ----- From: "rtlahti" To: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's > Magpie, > > Glad you got to hear some bulging this weekend. I think we got a fair chance > of getting our pantaloons bloody.>> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:49:19 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question > Soldado = Soldierm so it would be Soldier of Leather. Can't find anything > for cuirasses. "cuirasses" As the author described it, I see a very nicely fitted and appointed long leather coat, split up the back for horse ridding and the skirts long enough to protect the legs from briars and brambles (cactus). They had fancy applique work done with contrasting colored cloth peeking out of "cutouts" (kinda like those "heart bags" that have a cut out of a heart or two on the flap with red cloth sewn in behind). Some serrated edges on the leather seams would be appropriate and some silver buttons, etc. Very fancy. And very SW/Old Mexico look to them. YMOS Capt. Lahti' "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:19 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question > Soldado = Soldierm so it would be Soldier of Leather. Can't find anything > for cuirasses. > > Heres another (IMO) very useful link > > AltaVista - World - BabelFish > Translation > > Barn > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:01:06 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's It's that oft mentioned "senior moment" working here. Had a hell of a session with spell check and still got it wrong! But then maybe I didn't............. Capt. L "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Hickman To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 11:46 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's > If Magpie can hear himself bulging I'm sure that he will get his pantaloons > bloody. > > Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "rtlahti" > To: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's > > > > Magpie, > > > > Glad you got to hear some bulging this weekend. I think we got a fair > chance > > of getting our pantaloons bloody.>> > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:25:49 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question > Cuirass - (kwi-ras) or Queer-ass for those of us who ar phonetically > challenged. If you walk around with your surtout, chances are it's because you have nothing to cover your cuirass. That's why trade shirts were knee length. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:09:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Question I've also run across mention of cuir bouli (sp) boiled leather. Ive boiled a scrap in water and neats foot, shrunk like you wouldnt beleive, but came out hard and tough, and would definately stop a blade. - --- manbear wrote: > Cuirass - (kwi-ras) or Queer-ass for those of us who > ar phonetically > challenged. It is the leather breast and back armor > worn by Roman Soldiers. If > you saw "Gladiator" you saw plenty of cuirasses. > Manbear > > SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > leather cuirasses (huh?) > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:20:43 -0500 From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bark Canoe's Greetings...

There are two instances that I can recall that discuss bark canoes this side of the Rockies, excluding the odd looking watercraft of the upper Kutenai tribe. 

The first was a reference to a shipment from Quebec  to Fort George of bark for canoes in the early days of the NWCo (around 1814 or so... I'll have to go back and check).  The second, was a refeerence to one of Sir Alexander McKenzie's trips out of Lake Athabasca (1792-93), where he packed a disasembled canoe over one of the northern passes, and then rode it down the Fraser River.

From an obscure work published in 1934 by Jean C. Nielsen

"Ship after ship rounded Cape Horn in regular succession bringing to the Columbia, bulky cargoes of supplies and articles, all of which was to no avail in bringing about the rich harvest of furs for which they had been sent. As an example of the partners' extravagance it is said that they ordered a supply of Canadian birch bark for canoes, merely because they preferred this kind to that found on the Columbia."

If Mr. Nielsen is correct, it would seem there were canoes on the Columbia, if in limited quantities.

Regards...

Lee Newbill of Idaho


- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 08:56:19 -0500 From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Horses & Gunfire Hallo all....

Just an update on the training of horses to stand for shots....... been working with 'em regularly since my last post.  Today, I was able to fire a shot from about 30' away.  The big gelding still snorts and flinches, but they all stood for it.

Appreciate the advice from all who contributed.

Now I gots to go clean me rifle.

Cheers from Idaho

Lee
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