From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #902 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, December 13 2001 Volume 01 : Number 902 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Delaware - Missouri Fur Company -       MtMan-List: looking for blackpowder club in Edmonton ,Albert -       re: MtMan-List: looking for blackpowder club in Edmonton ,Alber -       MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps -       MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Corps of Discovery Descendant Project -       MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant -       re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant -       Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant -       Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant -       Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant -       Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant -       MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. -       Re: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. -       Re: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. -       re: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. -       MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article -       MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger -       Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger -       MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger -       Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger -       Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger -       Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:46:42 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware - Missouri Fur Company Howdy Ned, The party you have mentioned is the earliest mention of Delaware Indians hunting in the Rockies. An interesting entry. Two Delawares killed? Musta been a whole passel of Blackfeet carried dead off the field.WAUGH!!!!! Don Secondine >From: neddins >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware - Missouri Fur Company >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:45:35 > >An early reference to Delaware in the Rocky Mountains is in the letters of >Pierre Meanrd, Resident Partner of the Missouri Fur Company – Menard >states two Delaware were killed with George Drouillard at the Three Forks >in 1810, not Shawnee. > >Take Care, >Ned >www.thefurtrapper.com > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:30:42 EST From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: looking for blackpowder club in Edmonton ,Albert Someone once gave me the E-Mail address and website for a newsletter and gunclub located in Edmonton, Alberta Canada. If you have this information could you please forward it to me for a fellow buckskinner who'se moved there from the USA. Also, does anyone know if Clark & Son Mercantile is still in business. The website I had for them doesn't work anymore. If you have their current website, or if they sold out and you know the new owners info, please send that to me. Thanks! Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:58:56 -0600 From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." Subject: re: MtMan-List: looking for blackpowder club in Edmonton ,Alber Just tried this address for Clark & Sons and it works. http://www.clarkandsons.com/ Big Thunder Grenada, MS - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:09:12 EST From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Hey folks, I was wondering what you all have read about trappers keeping dogs in camp. Seems they may have picked them up in their encounters with the natives they encountered. Obviously, they had dogs all around their camps...still one of the best burglar alarms and early warning systems out there! But, I am looking for documentation of dogs kept in camp regularly. I seem to recall one ill-fated dog that got relegated to food while on a winter tramp from a snowed in camp east to a fort/city...the two trappers hit it in the head with an ax, threw it on the fire and it awoke (rather singed) and ran off - they had to retrieve it and dispatch it again. I AM NOT looking for references to dogs as food and how good it really is ...yadda, yadda ...nor how natives utilized them. I am looking for references to them as close companions and pets for trappers. Appreciate the help in advance!!! - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:18:39 -0700 From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Sublette and Harris used dogs as pack animals when they traipsed from Bear Lake to St. Louis in the middle of winter. Not sure if these were borrowed from the local tribe or were their own animals. Teton On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:09:12 EST HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: > Hey folks, > > I was wondering what you all have read about trappers keeping dogs > in camp. > Seems they may have picked them up in their encounters with the > natives they > encountered. Obviously, they had dogs all around their > camps...still one of > the best burglar alarms and early warning systems out there! But, I > am > looking for documentation of dogs kept in camp regularly. I seem to > recall > one ill-fated dog that got relegated to food while on a winter tramp > from a > snowed in camp east to a fort/city...the two trappers hit it in the > head with > an ax, threw it on the fire and it awoke (rather singed) and ran off > - they > had to retrieve it and dispatch it again. I AM NOT looking for > references to > dogs as food and how good it really is ...yadda, yadda ...nor how > natives > utilized them. I am looking for references to them as close > companions and > pets for trappers. Appreciate the help in advance!!! > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:52:30 -0800 From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps I don't know if it qualifies, but it seems that it starts with Seaman (on the Lewis and Clark expo), and from there it's a continuum of varying degree with their relations to the natives. I mean, as they took natives for relations the dogs came along. In many cases they are implied but not mentioned. Dogs were a part of the trapper community on the native end. Most Rocky Mountain trappers were a part of some native community, if only by default, since the natives were migratory and had claim to the resources. While the Ashley-Henry men, as employees, don't seem to have been allowed to take pets along, the mountains were full of everything from orphaned human kids to bear cubs to stray dogs. Some pets were special, but most most were common and trappers would not have wanted to be remembered as soft on a pet, so I have not found a lot of documentation. B'st'rd Clark Kent wrote: > > Hey folks, > > I was wondering what you all have read about trappers keeping dogs in camp. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:31:35 EST From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps In a message dated 12/11/01 9:18:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, tetontodd@juno.com writes: << Sublette and Harris used dogs as pack animals when they traipsed from Bear Lake to St. Louis in the middle of winter. >> That is likely the account I heard of and could not remember who was in on the tramp...gotta go back and check my sources! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:36:42 -0500 (EST) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Corps of Discovery Descendant Project http://home.pacifier.com/~karenl/lewis&.htm [also see USA Today, Tues. 12-11-01, p.9D brief article titled: Expedition members' descendants sought] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:58:24 -0800 From: JW Stephens Subject: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant At first I thought that brant was an archaic term for geese. While perusing the great link just provided to the PBS Corps of Discovery site I note a reference to York "shooting two geese and brant." Makes me wonder what the difference is. The dictionary that I have says that brant are small, dark geese. Is the name still in common use, or do we call brant by a more common familiar name? Are brant still hunted, and how does one tell brant from goose? B'st'rd - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:21:38 -0600 From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." Subject: re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant Check it out at the DU website http://www.ducks.org/waterfowling/gallery/index.asp?duck=73 or do a Google search for more info. Per DU, "Brant are small, dark geese that have large wings, which give them their characteristic strong flight." Big Thunder Grenada, MS - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:33:33 -0800 From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant Do tell, Big Thunder. Looks like I need to mind my eelgrass and I'll pick some out. Oddly, though, shootin' 'em don't float my stick. Thanks heaps. Wonder what Colter would have thought about our "instant knowledge gratification system" that we call the internet? B'st'rd, Orange County, CA "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." wrote: > > Check it out at the DU website > http://www.ducks.org/waterfowling/gallery/index.asp?duck=73 or do a Google > search for more info. > > Per DU, "Brant are small, dark geese that have large wings, which give them > their characteristic strong flight." > > Big Thunder > Grenada, MS - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 01:33:09 EST From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant - --part1_72.144e0bfd.29485425_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Brant is a dark stocky sea goose with a black head, neck, and breast and whitish patch on ether side of the neck. Average 25 inches in length where a Canada Goose can reach 45 inches. It is seldom seen far in land spend it summer in the Arctic and winters along the coast. There are many other species of geese in North America Greater White-fronted Goose, Bean Goose, Pink-footed Goose, Snow Goose, Ross's Goose and the Emperor Goose (seldom below Alaska) Watching geese from below can blur ones vision Mark "Roadkill" Loader - --part1_72.144e0bfd.29485425_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Brant is a dark stocky sea goose with a black head, neck, and breast and whitish patch on ether side of the neck. Average 25 inches in length where a Canada Goose can reach 45 inches. It is seldom seen far in land spend it summer in the Arctic and winters along the coast. There are many other species of geese in North America Greater White-fronted Goose, Bean Goose, Pink-footed Goose, Snow Goose, Ross's Goose and the Emperor Goose (seldom below Alaska)
Watching geese from below can blur ones vision
Mark "Roadkill" Loader - --part1_72.144e0bfd.29485425_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:43:57 -0800 From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JW Stephens" > At first I thought that brant was an archaic term for geese. While > perusing the great link just provided to the PBS Corps of Discovery site > I note a reference to York "shooting two geese and brant." Makes me > wonder what the difference is. 20 years ago, when I was working on my degree for Wildlife Biology, twas still called a brant. I took a moment to dust off my bird books and check. Brant: A small black necked goose, near the size of a mallard. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:08:10 -0800 (PST) From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant > Watching geese from below can blur ones vision > Mark "Roadkill" Loader > Not if you keep your eyes shut, Or your mouth open !!!! ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:53:02 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. I'm roastin a pig again for christmas, but its only my second. Any tips comments or recipies from experienced folks would be appreciated. The first was about 50 LBs and came out well, but I'm doin the second in a different hole, its only gonna be 30 LBs, and I still feel like I'm doin it for the first time. SoooEeeeeeeee! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:07:02 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. Like they used to do in Puerto Rico.... Deep hole... lots of coals top and bottom, and cover it with something to keep the juices in and keep it moist. Check it frequently with a meat thermometer and read the "Pork" setting on the guage... Ad Miller - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:59:36 EST From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. - --part1_6a.17e0a7bc.29498fb8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Bar-b-que originated in Jamaica the use green pimento for the grate to lay the pig on and us a seasoning that is called Jerk made up of cinnamon, nut meg, scallions, scotch bonnet peppers (hotter than jalapenos) thyme, salt, allspice, black pepper, and garlic cloves vegetable oil to make a runny paste all this is rubbed on the outside and stuffed into cut made in the large part of the pig. I cook whole pigs that weight 150 lb. after dressed and skinned on a spit that is covered turning every few minutes takes about eight hours. You have to watch for flame up. Makes for great pig has better flavor and not steamed like hole cooked pigs. Mark "Roakill" Loader Got my name from dutch oven cooking and my roadkill stew for mt. man doings for the past 20 odd years - --part1_6a.17e0a7bc.29498fb8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Bar-b-que originated in Jamaica the use green pimento for the grate to lay the pig on and us a seasoning that is called Jerk made up of cinnamon, nut meg, scallions, scotch bonnet peppers (hotter than jalapenos) thyme, salt, allspice, black pepper, and garlic cloves vegetable oil to make a runny paste all this is rubbed on the outside and stuffed into cut made in the large part of the pig. I cook whole pigs that weight 150 lb. after dressed and skinned on a spit that is covered turning every few minutes takes about eight hours. You have to watch for flame up. Makes for great pig has better flavor and not steamed like hole cooked pigs.
Mark "Roakill" Loader
Got my name from dutch oven cooking and my roadkill stew for mt. man doings for the past 20 odd years - --part1_6a.17e0a7bc.29498fb8_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:52:57 -0600 From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." Subject: re: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. It would take at least a small cookbook to adequately cover this matter - not to mention the liquor bill. A good supply of Elijah Craig 18 yr old bourbon will get you all the real, true, bona fide "Memphis"style, stole from Mississippi barbecue knowledge you can stand from yours truly and a few other opportunists I know. But for a no charge short lesson let me tell you that indirect heat from a hardwood fire at 200 deg for about two bottles (thats about 16-18 hours) should cook it to perfection. Baste it every drink or two with a cider vinegar and water soaked mop. It will be slap-yo-mama good. If you are really serious about doing it right, but too short on plews to buy Willinghams BBQ book you can get a fair education from "Bob in Georgia" at http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/whole_hog.htm. Also, the Smoke Ring http://www.smokering.net/ has hundreds of sites that will help. BUT, none of them can do what I can if you just bring of couple of them pigs and a couple of those bottled timers to me and my big backyard cooker. That would be Some! I cook my venison hind quarters much the same way, but it takes some serious priming to get me to share it! Mine! Mine! Mine! But Elijah 18 can talk me into sharing bout anything I got but my bedwarmer. Problem: sumptin' ain't quite right when mountain men are talkin' like a bunch of pork eatin' .............. High Cotton and Shinin' Times, Big Thuinder Grenada, MS - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:33:37 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article according to baker and other sources the problem with oil cloth is that it is very flamable. thus a plain untreated canvas is superioe 'FIRE WISE' to oil cloth if one wants a more than moderate fire relecting off of rocks or green logs during a heavy blizzard or cold spell. check out baker's article in muzzleloader. surely not all mountain men in astor's period or ashley's traded for oil cloth. it is like everything else, individual intelligience and resourcefulness gave a range of choices due to the materials of the time. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:01:26 -0800 From: "rtlahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Garrett" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:33 PM Subject: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article > > according to baker and other sources the problem with > oil cloth is that it is very flamable. Clint, Not finding fault with the message your sending. We certainly need to be careful with our fires and our firelocks (caplocks too) but if I may use your post to make a clarification? There is a difference between flammable and combustible. Without getting into ingnition temperatures, flash points, etc. that would be found applying to various materials (liquid and solid) that will burn I would like to put things in perspective. Gasoline, paint thinners, turpentine and such are flammables. This is because of their relatively low ignition temperatures and flash points. Extreme caution must be used with such substances because of the ease and even violence with which they can be made to burn. Wood, many oils and even dry paint are combustibles not flammables. They are catagorized as such because of the increased difficulty in igniting them. Though they will catch fire with varying degrees of ease, generally they do not ignite easily or violently and they are also much easier to extinguish once ignited than the substances clasified as flammable. To put things in further perspective, untreated canvas and most other natural and many synthetic fabrics are combustibles. Some will burn but not readily and some will burn with surprising ferocity "once ignited". Treated canvas depending on the treatment will have increased combustibility but unless the treatment is still wet will not be considered flammable and it will still not be ignited except by direct flame impingement. Generally a spark will not do the trick. It may smolder and "burn" better than untreated or it may even "burn" slower. Applying reasonable caution makes treated canvas relativly safe to use. You just don't let a candle get right next to it. But you wouldn't do that with untreated either. My conclusion? Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your period shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who have searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly woven cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and thus treating such material is only adding weight to the material that probalby is not necessary. It also increases the materials "combustibility" thus making it slightly more dangerous to use around open flame. If one uses common sense and is realistic about what water proofing techniques provide, one can feel confident that either treated or untreated shelters will work fine and be safe. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:49:39 -0700 From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Excellent post Capt! I'm always impressed that you take the time to explain things so well. Thanks! Teton On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:01:26 -0800 "rtlahti" writes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Clint Garrett" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:33 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article > > > > > > according to baker and other sources the problem with > > oil cloth is that it is very flamable. > > Clint, > > Not finding fault with the message your sending. We certainly need > to be > careful with our fires and our firelocks (caplocks too) but if I may > use > your post to make a clarification? > > There is a difference between flammable and combustible. Without > getting > into ingnition temperatures, flash points, etc. that would be found > applying > to various materials (liquid and solid) that will burn I would like > to put > things in perspective. > > Gasoline, paint thinners, turpentine and such are flammables. This > is > because of their relatively low ignition temperatures and flash > points. > Extreme caution must be used with such substances because of the > ease and > even violence with which they can be made to burn. > > Wood, many oils and even dry paint are combustibles not flammables. > They are > catagorized as such because of the increased difficulty in igniting > them. > Though they will catch fire with varying degrees of ease, generally > they do > not ignite easily or violently and they are also much easier to > extinguish > once ignited than the substances clasified as flammable. > > To put things in further perspective, untreated canvas and most > other > natural and many synthetic fabrics are combustibles. Some will burn > but not > readily and some will burn with surprising ferocity "once ignited". > Treated > canvas depending on the treatment will have increased combustibility > but > unless the treatment is still wet will not be considered flammable > and it > will still not be ignited except by direct flame impingement. > Generally a > spark will not do the trick. It may smolder and "burn" better than > untreated > or it may even "burn" slower. > > Applying reasonable caution makes treated canvas relativly safe to > use. You > just don't let a candle get right next to it. But you wouldn't do > that with > untreated either. > > My conclusion? Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your > period > shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who > have > searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly > woven > cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and > thus > treating such material is only adding weight to the material that > probalby > is not necessary. It also increases the materials "combustibility" > thus > making it slightly more dangerous to use around open flame. If one > uses > common sense and is realistic about what water proofing techniques > provide, > one can feel confident that either treated or untreated shelters > will work > fine and be safe. > > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:17:07 -0700 From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Associated with this idea of the treated and untreated canvas, I agree with Roger. I found long ago that tightly woven material tightly erected, sheds water just fine. I have been in some pretty hard and continuous rains with tightly woven and tightly strung canvas and have not had a problem with it. I don't think that the added weight of treated canvas for shelters is worth the effort. Of course I live in the relatively dry west. I also believe that the treated canvas, Russia sheeting, linen or other materials are and were more useful for wrapping goods (packaging) to protect them from water. Especially where you can't stretch the material tightly to shed water. I would further propose that historically these treated materials were used more commonly for "packaging" rather than for shelters. I'm sure that some treated materials were used for shelters and that many of those treated packaging pieces would later be recycled and used for shelters. The only other use/advantage I would see for treated material would be for a ground cloth. These are just my suppositions and I don't have any documentation. I do think that it would be a good research item for someone to look into. Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf - ----- Original Message ----- From: "rtlahti" To: Subject: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger > ... Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your period > shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who have > searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly woven > cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and thus > treating such material is only adding weight to the material that probalby > is not necessary....> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:17:15 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger i'm glad we have a man with fire oreinted knowledge among buckskinning; i'm also pleased he has earned so much respect. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:27:29 -0800 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Thanks Teton. We share what we have. No one should go hungry when there is food in camp. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Glover" To: Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:49 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger > Excellent post Capt! I'm always impressed that you take the time to > explain things so well. > Thanks! > > Teton > > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:01:26 -0800 "rtlahti" writes: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Clint Garrett" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:33 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article > > > > > > > > > > according to baker and other sources the problem with > > > oil cloth is that it is very flamable. > > > > Clint, > > > > Not finding fault with the message your sending. We certainly need > > to be > > careful with our fires and our firelocks (caplocks too) but if I may > > use > > your post to make a clarification? > > > > There is a difference between flammable and combustible. Without > > getting > > into ingnition temperatures, flash points, etc. that would be found > > applying > > to various materials (liquid and solid) that will burn I would like > > to put > > things in perspective. > > > > Gasoline, paint thinners, turpentine and such are flammables. This > > is > > because of their relatively low ignition temperatures and flash > > points. > > Extreme caution must be used with such substances because of the > > ease and > > even violence with which they can be made to burn. > > > > Wood, many oils and even dry paint are combustibles not flammables. > > They are > > catagorized as such because of the increased difficulty in igniting > > them. > > Though they will catch fire with varying degrees of ease, generally > > they do > > not ignite easily or violently and they are also much easier to > > extinguish > > once ignited than the substances clasified as flammable. > > > > To put things in further perspective, untreated canvas and most > > other > > natural and many synthetic fabrics are combustibles. Some will burn > > but not > > readily and some will burn with surprising ferocity "once ignited". > > Treated > > canvas depending on the treatment will have increased combustibility > > but > > unless the treatment is still wet will not be considered flammable > > and it > > will still not be ignited except by direct flame impingement. > > Generally a > > spark will not do the trick. It may smolder and "burn" better than > > untreated > > or it may even "burn" slower. > > > > Applying reasonable caution makes treated canvas relativly safe to > > use. You > > just don't let a candle get right next to it. But you wouldn't do > > that with > > untreated either. > > > > My conclusion? Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your > > period > > shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who > > have > > searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly > > woven > > cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and > > thus > > treating such material is only adding weight to the material that > > probalby > > is not necessary. It also increases the materials "combustibility" > > thus > > making it slightly more dangerous to use around open flame. If one > > uses > > common sense and is realistic about what water proofing techniques > > provide, > > one can feel confident that either treated or untreated shelters > > will work > > fine and be safe. > > > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:36:43 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger this very topic of packaging your goods or tying it to the packsaddle came up at the POLEBRIDGE RENDEZVOUS this summer. the conversation was at a packsaddle makers trade blanket. the consensus became that the ground cloth and shelter were the packaging covers. it was seen that there was no use carrying any extra weight or matewrial to cover your gear. one had only so many animals to carry his gear; why add items when you can utilize things for multi different purposes. however, even if we agreed on the idea; no one cited any document to prove this. evidently many had dug up this info before. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #902 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.