From: Stanley Townsend Subject: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 06:46:06 -0700 Scott wrote: > How about "Azul" (spanish for blue?) or something with Azul in it? I like it! How about "Azulito" (Little Blue). -- townsend@pacific.net (Stanley Townsend - M15 #478 "Freya") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 07:41:35 -0700 Stanley Townsend wrote: > > Scott wrote: > > How about "Azul" (spanish for blue?) or something with Azul in it? > > I like it! How about "Azulito" (Little Blue). > > -- > townsend@pacific.net (Stanley Townsend - M15 #478 "Freya") Sorry, guys, I'm not into spanish or words with 'z' in them. Thamks anyway! Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CeranoD515@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Outboard security and transport Date: 01 Jul 1999 14:05:33 EDT can someone please tell me how to unsubscribe from the list....thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 14:26:42 EDT In a message dated 7/1/99 06:46:13 US Mountain Standard Time, townsend@pacific.net writes: << How about "Azul" (spanish for blue?) or something with Azul in it? I like it! How about "Azulito" (Little Blue). >> How about "Blue Agave'", finest Tequilla in the world............... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats:Name "Das Boat"........... Date: 01 Jul 1999 14:30:09 EDT In a message dated 7/1/99 07:40:19 US Mountain Standard Time, dlebowitz@sprintmail.com writes: << Sorry, guys, I'm not into spanish >> Fran OOPS............should have read this one first.......hehe............too much Tequilla last night............. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Rafferty Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 15:25:28 PDT Lenny, Perhaps you have never overindulged in "Hurraduro" You will see more colors than just blue... Raff >From: AirEvacLen@aol.com >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul >Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:26:42 EDT > >In a message dated 7/1/99 06:46:13 US Mountain Standard Time, >townsend@pacific.net writes: > ><< How about "Azul" (spanish for blue?) or something with Azul in it? > > I like it! How about "Azulito" (Little Blue). > >> >How about "Blue Agave'", finest Tequilla in the world............... > >Lenny > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery 15 hull #516 Date: 01 Jul 1999 19:06:21 EDT Dan greg and I saw the boat on our way to the chesapeake raft up, she looked pretty good. I did notice some gelcoat damage on the statboard side near the bow, other than that she should be ok. didnt get a look inside but i'll bet if you gave her a good going over she'd be in pretty good shape. good luck and keep in tough gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 16:27:30 -0700 AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > How about "Blue Agave'", finest Tequilla in the world............... > > Lenny Lenny, No 'Blue Agave' - I don't drink...well hardly... You guys are having too much fun with this naming business. But keep it going if you wish~ Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Battery life Date: 01 Jul 1999 19:16:46 -0400 Alan, Put a voltmeter across your battery terminals when the charger is on. You should be reading about 14.5 volts, or close to it. That would be normal charging voltage With the charger disconnected from the battery, check battery voltage. A normal charged battery in good condition should read about 12 volts or a bit over that. If it reads down around 10 volts the battery is discharged and badly needs charging. Of course, if the battery has not been charged for 1 1/2 years, and might have been frozen during winter weather, then the battery probably needs replacement. I would presume that a garden tractor battery would be more than enough to power the electricals on an M15, and keep your stereo running. Have you checked the connections? Battery connections get a sulphate (sulphide?) coating between the battery post and the inside of the battery cable. Take a knife and scrape the inside of the cable terminal until it is shiny lead color - not a dull gray; do the same with the battery terminals themselves. Then you "know" that you have good connections between the battery and the cable, and power should be flowing through the wires to the switches. Check them too. If the battery is OK, then check the power input to the stereo. You should read 12 volts there also. If you haven't got it there, then either a switch is not in the proper position, or, you may have corrosion on terminal blocks or other connections in the system. All you can do is start from the battery - knowing you have 12 volts at the battery terminal, and then follow the wiring to see where you no longer have 12 volts. Any terminal strip connection; AMP connector; or a bad ground can be the cause of the problem. If the boat has been used in salt water, corrosion of terminals is the first thing to look for. Any nice green verdigris signs on connecting lugs? Is the wire clean and free of corrosion? If salt water got into a wire it might have corroded the wire inside it's insulation and so there is no contact. (I've run into this myself) Finding it is the hard part: fixing it is the easy part! Good hunting, Connie M15 #400 LEPPO ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 01 Jul 1999 19:22:15 -0400 Fran, Not having done it since last year, I think that you have to push the rudder blade down part way until you can lower the tiller and lock the rudder blade in place. If this doesn't go easily, then you might have put too many coats of varnish on the rudder and it no longer will swing freely in the rudder head. Then you will have to loosen up the bolts a tiny bit. On my boat I had the opposite problem. After our first sail I found too much slop between the rudder blade head and the blade itself. I can't stand rudders that can move without me moving the tiller. So, I disassembled everything and added a thin sheet of plastic to take up the play. Now there is no slop, and the rudder blade goes up and down when desired. Good luck - and install the jib downhaul, you'll love it. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 20:29:15 EDT In a message dated 7/1/99 3:41:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mrafferty@hotmail.com writes: << Lenny, Perhaps you have never overindulged in "Hurraduro" You will see more colors than just blue... Raff >> Mike, I saw your posting on the list, re: the Hess Fest. Are you going to sail upwind to Long Beach, or trailer the boat. I figure you will be sailing, since you indicate a 10 hr. return sail. How long will it take to beat your way up to Long Beach? Roy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 20:53:11 EDT In a message dated 7/1/99 16:24:45 US Mountain Standard Time, dlebowitz@sprintmail.com writes: << You guys are having too much fun with this naming business. But keep it going if you wish~ >> Ok Fran,,,,,,,sorry to have fun at your expense. But if she's a real heart stopper, try "CODE BLUE"........it always gets our attention.......... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 20:55:41 EDT In a message dated 7/1/99 16:24:45 US Mountain Standard Time, dlebowitz@sprintmail.com writes: << No 'Blue Agave' - I don't drink...well hardly... > Fran There's always my favorite........"Blue Angel"........hehe Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery 15 hull #516 Date: 01 Jul 1999 22:17:31 PDT Dan....I think what gary saw on the starboard bow in not gelcoat damage = but rather duct tape residue from a for sale sign being stuck there. I thoug= ht that it was damage too until I was about 3' away from it. Tod ---------- > Dan > > > greg and I saw the boat on our way to the chesapeake raft up, she looke= d > pretty good. I did notice some gelcoat damage on the statboard side nea= r the > bow, other than that she should be ok. didnt get a look inside but i'll= bet > if you gave her a good going over she'd be in pretty good shape. > > good luck and keep in tough > > gary > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail! Date: 01 Jul 1999 23:00:45 -0400 Hi Francene... Glad you enjoyed your first sail. Like you, I waited several months befo= re taking Stargazer on our first sail. My Admirable likes to take several of the family our with us, and since w= e still had our sail club membership, we took them on the Typhoon 19 or Cap= ri 22...lots of cockpit space. Besides, I didn't want to have everyone aboa= rd on our first sail Our first sail was uneventful, as far as surprises by boat or Mother Nature. Winds were low, and we just relaxed and enjoyed the afternoon. = Had a picnic lunch aboard with some bubbly, and took the opportunity to d= o the boat un-naming/ re-naming ceremony (in case she had a secret name by her former owner) Evinrude has a website, and you can order both manuals for your engine. = Use search engine for Evinrude, as it's omc-something.com, and I forgot t= o save the address. I have both for my 8hp 'Rude, but it's packed away somewhere in the stuff= from the old house. Owners manual was about $10, and shop manual was $35. W-M/ BoatUS may ha= ve a "Chiltons" or similiar repair manual...I've seen them somewhere, and they're cheaper, geared for the user, not the factory trained mechanic. = Got one for my old Seagull...it's great. Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Rafferty Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 21:54:16 PDT Hi Roy, I have made the trip to Catalina (same distance) in 12 hours in Santa Ana conditions. I figure to beat upwind/drift might take me 20 hours. The Question is to troll for a Marlin or Tuna big enough to feed 6 people. The ridge is a bit off the direct course, but you never know...I always budget time for that. Will I see you in Long Beach? Did you finally buy a Montgomery? Take care, Raff M23 #26 "Summer Solstice" >From: Weesail@aol.com >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul >Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:29:15 EDT > >In a message dated 7/1/99 3:41:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >mrafferty@hotmail.com writes: > ><< Lenny, Perhaps you have never overindulged in "Hurraduro" > You will see more colors than just blue... > Raff >> >Mike, > >I saw your posting on the list, re: the Hess Fest. Are you going to sail >upwind to Long Beach, or trailer the boat. I figure you will be sailing, >since you indicate a 10 hr. return sail. How long will it take to beat your >way up to Long Beach? > >Roy > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 22:00:32 -0700 > dlebowitz@sprintmail.com writes: > > << You guys are having too much fun with this naming business. But keep it > going if you wish~ > >> > Ok Fran,,,,,,,sorry to have fun at your expense. But if she's a real heart > stopper, try "CODE BLUE"........it always gets our attention.......... Lenny, That's a cool name; definitely a contender. Keep 'em coming! Humor is always appreciated. Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 01 Jul 1999 22:05:04 -0700 AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/1/99 16:24:45 US Mountain Standard Time, > dlebowitz@sprintmail.com writes: > > << No 'Blue Agave' - I don't drink...well hardly... > > Fran > There's always my favorite........"Blue Angel"........hehe > > Lenny Lenny, I thought of that one; when we sailed, the boat ' was' almost airborne! Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bedside manuals Date: 01 Jul 1999 22:12:04 -0700 Harvey Wilson wrote: r) > > Evinrude has a website, and you can order both manuals for your engine. > Use search engine for Evinrude, as it's omc-something.com > Harvey/ Ga > M-17 Stargazer #294 Harvey, Funny, I just tried omc-something.com and got absolutely-nowhere.com JK, thanks for the info. I was able to order the owners and service manals from my nearby OMC service center, so I'll see if I can make heads or tails of them when they get here. Those laymen manuals might be a welcome addition to the collection. Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 01 Jul 1999 22:16:56 -0700 Conbert H Benneck wrote: > > Fran, I think that you have to push the rudder blade down part way until you can lower the tiller and lock the rudder blade in place. Connie, Thanks for the reply. We did resort to pushing gently and it went down. I just thought there was some tiller pumping action that makes it go up AND down. Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Azul Date: 02 Jul 1999 11:58:24 EDT Hi Mike, We would like to be in Long Beach for the festivities, but we are not sure we can attend at this time. A 20 hr run would be good time, especially with a big fish in tow. No, we have not purchased a Monty, my wife is soon to join the ranks of the unemployed. Dole is closing down their Bakersfield operation. We were offered a relocation package to move to Salinas, but we have declined. We have had to rearrange our priorities, so looks like the boat will be put off for this year. We have also decided to look at some larger boat alternatives as well. If we can break loose, we will look forward to seeing you, and others on the list as well. Happy Sails to You. Rot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Rafferty Subject: M_Boats: Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:13:47 PDT Date: 02 Jul 1999 10:14:21 -0600 Good morning M folks, I have a couple of questions... Does anyone know what adjustment I need to make on the throttle of my 6hp Evanrude to tighten the handle to maintain RPM while under power? Secondly, how many of you are going to be in Long Beach? Does anyone have an interest in a network for those of you out of state to buy a Hess burgee? I am rather proud of my boat and some of the modifications I've made. I hope to show-off to some of you my modified shroud/mast-step system. Raff M23 "Summer Solstice" _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:13:47 PDT Date: 02 Jul 1999 12:54:37 EDT In a message dated 7/2/99 9:14:54 AM US Mountain Standard Time, mrafferty@hotmail.com writes: << Does anyone have an interest in a network for those of you out of state >> Raff Where are you located? Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse Phx,Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Rafferty Subject: Re: M_Boats: Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:13:47 PDT Date: 02 Jul 1999 11:02:37 PDT Lenny, I'm in San Diego berthed at Marina Cortez at Harbor Island G44. Raff >From: AirEvacLen@aol.com >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: M_Boats: Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:13:47 PDT >Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:54:37 EDT > >In a message dated 7/2/99 9:14:54 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >mrafferty@hotmail.com writes: > ><< Does anyone have an > interest in a network for those of you out of state >> >Raff > Where are you located? > >Lenny >M-23#003 >Sea Horse >Phx,Az > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEHowe@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: M boat on ebay Date: 02 Jul 1999 18:14:29 EDT M15 is on the online auction site E Bay [Unable to display image] Bids start at $1000. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M boat on ebay Date: 02 Jul 1999 19:54:34 -0400 Looks like a steal! Clean 1989, but a California boat, from the pic. If I weren't on the other coast, I'd buy it on spec. Tod? Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 02 Jul 1999 20:07:11 -0400 Connie, Mine works like this: raise then lower the the tiller briskly and the rudder changes position. If it was up, it goes down. If it was down, it comes up. I added a few coats of varnish over the winter and it still works fine. What surprises me the most is that the shock cord still works at all. It appears to be original and if so, it's 18 years old. And of course, rubber deterioriates with age rather than use. Not that I'm complaining. . .heh heh. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: M_Boats: boat mysteries: one solved and a new one Date: 02 Jul 1999 10:40:57 -0500 Greetings M-boaters, While on a trip to Duluth this evening, I stopped to look at an M-17 that's usually sitting there, rigged, on its trailer. I've never looked at it closely before, but with my new interest in rigging I walked over to check it out. This solved the question of what kind of trailer I have (mine's been repainted, so no logos), as the trailer was exactly like mine and had a nice, big Trail-Rite label on it. I had wondered why mine had a square of metal welded on the top of the rear part of the tongue - the trailer I saw tonight had a vertical hole there, apparently for an OEM crank-up wheel (but it had a clamp on wheel farther forward, just like mine does), so that solved my trailer questions. Now for the weird part. As I mentioned here before, my boat has no length number in the Hull ID. That is, it's #MMP3341081. Does anyone else have a number like this? Anyway, my boat fits in with what I've read here about the changes made for 1981. It has the larger deck-hull flange, the non-cut out transom, the wet locker, and the rimless windows. The boat I was looking at tonight was the older style. It had the smoother-flanged hull-to-deck connection, a transom cut-out, and aluminum-rimmed windows. So imagine my surprise when I looked at the serial number and it was MMP173340481 ! So there are (at least) two M-17s that are boat #334 , although the whole serial number isn't the same, of course. I went all the way to Texas to pick up my boat, and now the two 334s are practically re-united :-) I still think it's a little strange that two boats would have the same number, especially since they were made six months apart, so it's not like they just accidentally forgot to change the number for the next boat out of the mold. Had the boat-shop crew just discovered a new kind of beverage? :-) I'm also wondering about the Lake Pepin get-together that was mentioned for mid-July. Is anyone here going? I'd like to go, but I'd be sailboat-less - would anyone like to show off their M? Hope everyone has a great 4th --- Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:13:47 PDT Date: 02 Jul 1999 21:34:36 -0700 Michael Rafferty wrote: > > > Does anyone know what adjustment I need to make on the throttle of my 6hp > Evanrude to tighten the handle to maintain RPM while under power? > I originally had an 8 HP Johnson on M-23 Sadhana and there was a knob under the tiller that controlled twistgrip friction. Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: boat mysteries: one solved and a new one Date: 02 Jul 1999 22:31:56 -0700 rland@win.bright.net wrote: > > Hope everyone has a great 4th---Rachel You too, Rachel!!!~^&*****!!!!!!!*!*!*!*!*!*!*.....*! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan J. Fujii" Subject: M_Boats: First sail !@#!! You wouldn't have admitted you knew me Date: 02 Jul 1999 23:04:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BEC4DF.4A075C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I went on my first sail aboard my M-15 today. I had ask a friend to come = along and so I spent the last couple of days getting the boat ready or = so I thought. I figured that I would be better off rigging the boat = ahead of time and then trailer it to the launch ramp. I have the boat in = a dry slip at the Bayside Village in Newport Beach. The launch ramp is = quite near, I just have to go down a street make a couple of turns and = I'm there. There are no bridges so it'll be duck soup right?. Wrong.... = as I'm carefully driving along, I notice that the street lights are = cantilevered over the streets. Feeling very good that I notice them I = careful guide the truck safely through. We come up to the main = intersection and I carefully change lanes to avoid another street light = and then at the end of my left turn I look in horror at a street light = beam that completely stretches across the entire road. I slowly inch up = to see if the mast will clear it. I stop, it doesn't look good and it's = confirmed by a truck driver sitting in the lane going the opposite = direction. He says it's about a half a foot too long. Now I quickly look = around and see that I'm trapped, if I don't move quickly I'll be stuck = by the traffic going perpendicular to the road I was entering. I start = moving the trailer/truck back into the middle of the intersection, wig = wagging all the way (Haven't got the hang of this trailer bit yet) and = somehow I'm able to get it back enough that I can turn the truck. = Another street light is covering the road. Luckily it only covers about = 75% of the road. I veer the truck left until I figure that I would clear = it and step on the gas. I look in my rear view mirror and see a row of = cars bearing down on me. As soon as I clear the lights I veer straight = across for the curb. I safely park the truck and stick on the emergency = lights and get out keeping me eyes on the ground but feeling the cool = stares of the motorists driving by (You have to understand this is = Pacific Coast Highway and how I was able get away doing this on this = busy street is beyond me). Luckily there were no policeman, since I = probably made 3 or 4 moving violations or he was there but too busy = laughing his head off.=20 We get the mast down and get the boat launched and I'm busy chugging = along and my friend ask me about the homes in this particular area. I = start to tell him that we (wife and I) looked in this area but I nixed = it because I found out that although the homes were well priced for = water front the boats you can have were either power boats or small = sailboats with a tabernacle mast. There's a bridge that the sailboats = can't go under, then it dawned on me. I wonder if my mast will fit under = the bridge. I motored toward the bridge trying to gage the height. Since = I didn't know the height from the water level to the top of my mast the = level indications on the wall did me no good. It was hard to tell = whether we would fit under the bridge because we were looking straight = up. Ed suggested that he get off and look from the shore. I let him off = and spun around to get close to the bridge so he could gage it. Thumbs = up, so I went in while trying to position myself to turn the outboard = around if I heard a sound. We're in luck I get through but it looked = awfully close. Ed is following me along the shore, now waiting to be = picked up. I inch in slowly toward the shore until the boat stops with = the keel buried in the sand. Ed attempts to get in but the minute he = puts any weight on the boat I know that the small outboard would not be = able to move us. Ed shoves us out I attempt it again, this time for some = reason I decided to back in. I flipped the outboard around and slowly = back in then I flip it back and was almost parallel to the shore. This = allowed Ed to come up to the starboard side close to the stern. I felt = that he could push off and climb in easier I the back since it was lower = to the waterline. When he pushes off the bow swings out causing the = stern to move closer to the shore. I heard the outboard propeller = crunching some rocks before I pull out the lanyard. Ed aborts his = attempt on getting in when he hears the crunching sound. Meanwhile I'm = floating out, but I start the outboard and flip it into forward. I = increased the throttle but no movement. I flipped the outboard up and = try it again but see that the propeller is turning but weakly. As I'm = pre-occupied with the outboard I hear a scrapping sound and look up, = since I was busy fiddling with the outboard the boat has drifted back to = the bridge. Only now I'm not at the crest where we had cleared. I duck = down in the cabin and grab the old paddle and start paddling like crazy. = I am able to get away from the lower side but find paddling a 6' wide = boat a little difficult to head where I want. I can only try to steer it = since the current is taking me back under the bridge. I manage to get = the boat to a landing (fish store) and cleat it and wait for Ed to = realize I'm not coming back to get him. He finally gets the hint and = comes over. I now realize at this point, the only sailing I'm going to = do today is sailing back to the launch. I sat and began trying to figure = out a plan (the Back Bay is not what I would consider a place to sail). = I was in luck the wind was at our backs, I would be able to run down the = narrow channel. Now we hoisted the mainsail and unfurling the jib and = was able to get the wind to fill our sails. We were off, but I was = having a hard time steering the boat. I notice that whenever I lifted = the tiller the rudder would dip into the water. I couldn't tip it higher = so I figured that must be as far as it goes. Well as you can guess, it's = very difficult to steer when the rudder is only at a 30 degree angle in = the water. I figured something was wrong but we were committed and I = needed to get through this channel before giving up what little steering = capability I had. Finally we get to an open area and I chance taking the = rudder assembly out and trying to figure it out. I able to pull the = rudder down and get it back in it's place none too soon since we began = drifting towards the homes. Now I turn too head up towards the launch. = The wind is now off the starboard bow and I try pointing the boat as = high as I can go so I can get a proper angle into the launch area. Now = for anyone not familiar with Dunes Back Bay launch in Newport Beach, = there's a problem because the launch is behind a hill. I knew this so I = was trying to get enough momentum so I can glide since the hill will = block the wind. The first try didn't work, as soon as I entered the = mouth, the wind cuts off like a faucet. I start to coast then stop and = then began to drift towards to shore. Again we found ourselves beached = and quickly pulling up the centerboard. The paddle comes out again and I = pushed off, now someone up there has pity on us and gave us a puff of = wind. This allowed us to put the centerboard and head out. We continued = out for a ways and then tacked across. I was determined to get a better = line and be able to hug the hill better so when we lose the wind we = would drift into the mouth deeper. Second time we were coming at a close = haul and good speed. This time when the wind died we were able to drift = in far enough to catch the wind coming straight at us. We were ready and = had the sails set to close haul toward the dock, We looked like Laurel = and Hardy dropping the main and scrambling to catch the dock before the = boat hit. I duck below to grab the fenders and we fumbled getting them = into place while trying to look professional. Heck, at least we made it! = We took the motor off and drove to several shops, each giving us = directions on another shop that might be able to help that day. We = needed the outboard to get the boat from the dock to the launch ramp. As = bad a day I was having, we found a shop that looked busy but the owner = took our outboard, took the prop off and replaced the shear pin and = didn't want any money. We got back and loaded the boat and went home. = I'm sure it will be a dark day in H@#l before Ed goes sailing with me = again. Did I learn anything today? As I always tell my people at work, "You can = make mistakes as long as you learn from them." Only problem though, if = they went into a situation like I did with as little preparation I would = not be very happy with them. I am not very happy with my performance. = Yes, I learned that I need to be better prepared than I was today. I = lucked out today, I just looked like a fool but it could've easily ended = with a more serious outcome. It won't happen again. Other than that, this hasn't dampened my desire for sailing. I learned = quite a lot today first hand since just about everything I did was the = wrong way. My dad always said that I had a thick head and the only way I = would learn is the hard way. I hope that is not always the case. Thought I would tell the group about my embarrassing day. Alan Fujii M-15 Hull #125 - Haiku =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BEC4DF.4A075C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I went on my first sail aboard = my M-15=20 today. I had ask a friend to come along and so I spent the last couple = of days=20 getting the boat ready or so I thought. I figured that I would be better = off=20 rigging the boat ahead of time and then trailer it to the launch ramp. I = have=20 the boat in a dry slip at the Bayside Village in Newport Beach. The = launch ramp=20 is quite near, I just have to go down a street make a couple of turns = and I'm=20 there. There are no bridges so it'll be duck soup right?. Wrong.... as = I'm=20 carefully driving along, I notice that the street lights are = cantilevered over=20 the streets. Feeling very good that I notice them I careful guide the = truck=20 safely through. We come up to the main intersection and I carefully = change lanes=20 to avoid another street light and then at the end of my left turn I look = in=20 horror at a street light beam that completely stretches across the = entire road.=20 I slowly inch up to see if the mast will clear it. I stop,  it = doesn't look=20 good and it's confirmed by a truck driver sitting in the lane going the = opposite=20 direction. He says it's about a half a foot too long. Now I quickly look = around=20 and see that I'm trapped, if I don't move quickly I'll be stuck by the = traffic=20 going perpendicular to the road I was entering. I start moving the = trailer/truck=20 back into the middle of the intersection, wig wagging all the way = (Haven't got=20 the hang of this trailer bit yet) and somehow I'm able to get it back = enough=20 that I can turn the truck. Another street light is covering the road. = Luckily it=20 only covers about 75% of the road. I veer the truck left until I figure = that I=20 would clear it and step on the gas. I look in my rear view mirror and = see a row=20 of cars bearing down on me. As soon as I clear the lights I veer = straight across=20 for the curb. I safely park the truck and stick on the emergency lights = and get=20 out keeping me eyes on the ground but feeling the cool stares of the = motorists=20 driving by (You have to understand this is Pacific Coast Highway and how = I was=20 able get away doing this on this busy street is beyond me). Luckily = there were=20 no policeman, since I probably made 3 or 4 moving violations or he was = there but=20 too busy laughing his head off.
We get the mast down and get = the boat=20 launched and I'm busy chugging along and my friend ask me about the = homes in=20 this particular area. I start to tell him that we (wife and I) looked in = this=20 area but I nixed it because I found out that although the homes were = well priced=20 for water front the boats you can have were either power boats or small=20 sailboats with a tabernacle mast. There's a bridge that the sailboats = can't go=20 under, then it dawned on me. I wonder if my mast will fit under the = bridge. I=20 motored toward the bridge trying to gage the height. Since I didn't know = the=20 height from the water level  to the top of my mast the level = indications on=20 the wall did me no good. It was hard to tell whether we would fit under = the=20 bridge because we were looking straight up. Ed suggested that he get off = and=20 look from the shore. I let him off and spun around to get close to the = bridge so=20 he could gage it. Thumbs up, so I went in while trying to position = myself to=20 turn the outboard around if I heard a sound. We're in luck I get through = but it=20 looked awfully close. Ed is following me along the shore, now waiting to = be=20 picked up. I inch in slowly toward the shore until the boat stops with = the keel=20 buried in the sand. Ed attempts to get in but the minute he puts any = weight on=20 the boat I know that the small outboard would not be able to move us. Ed = shoves=20 us out I attempt it again, this time for some reason I decided to back = in. I=20 flipped the outboard around and slowly back in then I flip it back and = was=20 almost parallel to the shore. This allowed Ed to come up to the = starboard side=20 close to the stern. I felt that he could push off and climb in easier I = the back=20 since it was lower to the waterline. When he pushes off the bow swings = out=20 causing the stern to move closer to the shore. I heard the outboard = propeller=20 crunching some rocks before I pull out the lanyard. Ed aborts his = attempt on=20 getting in when he hears the crunching sound. Meanwhile I'm floating = out, =20 but I start the outboard and flip it into forward. I increased the = throttle but=20 no movement. I flipped the outboard up and try it again but see that the = propeller is turning but weakly. As I'm pre-occupied with the outboard = I =20 hear a scrapping sound and look up, since I was busy fiddling with the = outboard=20 the boat has drifted back to the bridge. Only now I'm not at the crest = where we=20 had cleared. I duck down in the cabin and grab the old paddle and start = paddling=20 like crazy. I am able to get away from the lower side but find paddling = a 6'=20 wide boat a little difficult to head where I want. I can only try to = steer it=20 since the current is taking me back under the bridge. I manage to get = the boat=20 to a landing (fish store) and cleat it and wait for Ed to realize I'm = not coming=20 back to get him. He finally gets the hint and comes over. I now realize = at this=20 point, the only sailing I'm going to do today is sailing back to the = launch. I=20 sat and began trying to figure out a plan (the Back Bay is not what I = would=20 consider a place to sail). I was in luck the wind was at our backs, I = would be=20 able to run down the narrow channel. Now we hoisted the mainsail and = unfurling=20 the jib and was able to get the wind to fill our sails. We were off, but = I was=20 having a hard time steering the boat. I notice that whenever I lifted = the tiller=20 the rudder would dip into the water. I couldn't tip it higher so I = figured that=20 must be as far as it goes. Well as you can guess, it's very difficult to = steer=20 when the rudder is only at a 30 degree angle in the water. I figured = something=20 was wrong but we were committed and I needed to get through this channel = before=20 giving up what little steering capability I had. Finally we get to an = open area=20 and I chance taking the rudder assembly out and trying to figure it out. = I able=20 to pull the rudder down and get it back in it's place none too soon = since we=20 began drifting towards the homes. Now I turn too head up towards the = launch. The=20 wind is now off the starboard bow and I try pointing the boat as high as = I can=20 go so I can get a proper angle into the launch area. Now for anyone not = familiar=20 with Dunes Back Bay launch in Newport Beach, there's a problem because = the=20 launch is behind a hill. I knew this so I was trying to get enough = momentum so I=20 can glide since the hill will block the wind. The first try didn't work, = as soon=20 as I entered the mouth, the wind cuts off like a faucet. I start to = coast then=20 stop and then began to drift towards to shore. Again we found ourselves = beached=20 and quickly pulling up the centerboard. The paddle comes out again and I = pushed=20 off, now someone up there has pity on us and gave us a puff of wind. = This=20 allowed us to put the centerboard and head out. We continued out for a = ways and=20 then tacked across. I was determined to get a better line and be able to = hug the=20 hill better so when we lose the wind we would drift into the mouth = deeper.=20 Second time we were coming at a close haul and good speed. This time = when the=20 wind died we were able to drift in far enough to catch the wind coming = straight=20 at us. We were ready and had the sails set to close haul toward the = dock, We=20 looked like Laurel and Hardy dropping the main and scrambling to catch = the dock=20 before the boat hit. I duck below to grab the fenders and we fumbled = getting=20 them into place while trying to look professional. Heck, at least we = made it! We=20 took the motor off and drove to several shops, each giving us directions = on=20 another shop that might be able to help that day. We needed the outboard = to get=20 the boat from the dock to the launch ramp. As bad a day I was having, we = found a=20 shop that looked busy but the owner took our outboard, took the prop off = and=20 replaced the shear pin and didn't want any money. We got back and loaded = the=20 boat and went home. I'm sure it will be a dark day in H@#l before Ed = goes=20 sailing with me again.
Did I learn=20 anything today? As I always tell my people at work, "You can make = mistakes=20 as long as you learn from them." Only problem though, if they went = into a=20 situation like I did with as little preparation I would not be very = happy with=20 them. I am not very happy with my performance. Yes, I learned that I = need to be=20 better prepared than I was today. I lucked out today, I just looked like = a fool=20 but it could've easily ended with a more serious outcome. It won't = happen=20 again.
Other than that, this hasn't dampened my desire for = sailing. I=20 learned quite a lot today first hand since just about everything I did = was the=20 wrong way. My dad always said that I had a thick head and the only way I = would=20 learn is the hard way. I hope that is not always the case.
 
Thought I would tell the group about my embarrassing = day.
 
Alan Fujii
M-15 Hull #125 - = Haiku  
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BEC4DF.4A075C20-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 03 Jul 1999 08:39:24 -0400 Fran wrote. > You raise the tiller to make the rudder kick-up, but how do you make it go back down?< It is the zen for kick-up rudders. You raise the tiller to make the rudd= er kick up and you raise the tiller to make it go back down. The rudder has= an old 8086 chip and 64k of memory to keep track of what it is supposed t= o do. Seriously the mechanism is designed so that when the blade is in the up position and you raise the tiller it pushes the blade back down if you do= this slowly the cam will stop the blade from going down. To put the kick-up rudder down while in the water you raise the tiller quickly so the blade is moving fast enough for its momentum to ride over the cam. As youfeel the blade clear the cam you push the tiller down whic= h will then push the blade down into sailing position. Thus to raise the rudder you raise the tiller and lower the rudder you raise the tiller. It all in the mental attitude (and wrist action). Doug "Seas the Day" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail !@#!! You wouldn't have admitted you knew me Date: 03 Jul 1999 10:59:11 EDT Mr Fuji; You did one thing very correct that day. You left your wife/significant other at home. Your friends will laugh and forgive but she'll never let you forget. I've been to The Dunes in Newport and the procedure is to launch, motor under the bridge and then raise the mast. My chart is out on the boat but I believe the clearance at the bridge is in the 20+ foot range. My 23'er won't clear by several feet. You were lucky to make it. Sandy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 03 Jul 1999 08:21:10 -0700 Doug Kelch wrote: > > Fran wrote. > > You raise the tiller > to make the rudder kick-up, but how do you make it go back down?< > > It is the zen for kick-up rudders. > > Thus to raise the rudder you raise the tiller and lower the rudder you > raise the tiller. It all in the mental attitude (and wrist action). > > Doug > "Seas the Day" Doug, Dennis, and Connie, Thanks for responding to the query.As Cusonfius say: " fiddle with it". Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan J. Fujii" Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail !@#!! You wouldn't have admitted you knew me Date: 03 Jul 1999 08:22:19 -0700 You are sooo right about that! Actually, She will never get into a boat this small. I bought this boat since I felt that I would be doing a lot of sailing by myself. I'm working on her to "allow" me to buy a Beneteau 36CC. But I will defintely need to improve before I ever take her out on a boat. If not it will just become a dream. Alan Fujii M-15 Hull #125 - Haiku -----Original Message----- me >Mr Fuji; You did one thing very correct that day. You left your >wife/significant other at home. Your friends will laugh and forgive but >she'll never let you forget. I've been to The Dunes in Newport and the >procedure is to launch, motor under the bridge and then raise the mast. My >chart is out on the boat but I believe the clearance at the bridge is in the >20+ foot range. My 23'er won't clear by several feet. You were lucky to make >it. Sandy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZSKYBUM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail !@#!! You wouldn't have admitted you knew me Date: 03 Jul 1999 13:08:54 EDT Alan don't feel to bad I tried the same trick of launching back in there with my P-Cat once. Mast is ALOT taller and we didn't have a motor..every time we would fall off the wind would hit us and boom we would be doing 20 knots accross that little bay ..........moral launch from an upwind shore as possible.. Curtis M-17 Estoy Perdido Scottsdale, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail !@#!! You wouldn't have admitted you knew me Date: 03 Jul 1999 18:57:01 EDT That little bridge goes back a long way.....when I bought my first 17 from Jerry, we launched there, and he walked over to the West Marine store across the street to buy me a snap shackle for my headsail.....I STILL HAVE that schackle and use it as a key ring....Jerry if you read this, I want you to know that....Larry Barkhuff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M boat on ebay Date: 03 Jul 1999 19:00:59 EDT In a message dated 7/2/99 4:58:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wriker@mindspring.com writes: << Looks like a steal! Clean 1989, but a California boat, from the pic. If I weren't on the other coast, I'd buy it on spec. Tod? >> Looks like AZSKYBUM is trying to do the stealing..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZSKYBUM@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Boom Crutch Date: 03 Jul 1999 19:06:25 EDT I am looking for ideas, pro and con on getting one of these for my M-17.I don't know if that is the correct name, this would be consist of two verticals,probably 1" stainless tubing, and a wooden crosspiece that the boom couldsit in when not in use. Also it could hold the mast for trailering, mount the backedge of the bimini top, even mount a cockpit light. I have seen them on bigger but have looked at Minnys in Newport, Ca. and several other places but they are all too massive. I already have a stern pulpit that it could be welded to. Curtis Clark Scottsdale, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZSKYBUM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M boat on ebay Date: 03 Jul 1999 19:08:17 EDT Well step up folks!!! I don't know what the reserve is, I know it's more than $1700. Curtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re:The Good, The Bad, The Rest Date: 03 Jul 1999 20:31:04 EDT In a message dated 7/3/99 12:03:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time, orca52@ix.netcom.com writes: << I learned quite a lot today first hand since just about everything I did was the wrong way. >> Nice job..........even a bad day of sailing is better than no sailing at all.......... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail !@#!! You wouldn't have admitted you knew me Date: 03 Jul 1999 20:32:46 EDT In a message dated 7/3/99 9:19:29 AM US Mountain Standard Time, orca52@ix.netcom.com writes: << If not it will just become a dream. >> Make it so................. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M boat on ebay Date: 03 Jul 1999 21:11:51 EDT In a message dated 7/3/99 4:09:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AZSKYBUM@aol.com writes: << Well step up folks!!! I don't know what the reserve is, I know it's more than $1700. Curtis >> Hi Curtis, Good luck on your bidding. I had not been involved with eBay prior to the posting yesterday. This is the second time in less than a month that a Monty has been auctioned on line. If my wife was not about to become unemployed, I would be bidding myself. Although we are looking for a larger boat for So Cal coastal cruising, I would like to have an M15 for local lakes, larger more distant lakes, and bay sailing. I have caught the small boat fever from the postings on the list. Happy Sails to you. Roy/Bakersfield ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry montgomery Subject: Re: M_Boats: boat mysteries: one solved and a new one Date: 03 Jul 1999 17:15:21 +0000 I hope no one else has a number like that. I believe that the first 334 was the last of the old type 17 and the second 334 was the first of the new type. A 6 mo lag sounds right because the re-tooling took awhile and we were swanped with 15 orders in those days. I lay the blame on the dupliction of numbers directly on either Tom Hutchinson, Dave Hess, or Ray Ruiz; anyone but me. And yes, it could happen. Jerry rland@win.bright.net wrote: > > Greetings M-boaters, > > While on a trip to Duluth this evening, I stopped to look at an M-17 > that's usually sitting there, rigged, on its trailer. I've never looked > at it closely before, but with my new interest in rigging I walked over > to check it out. > > This solved the question of what kind of trailer I have (mine's been > repainted, so no logos), as the trailer was exactly like mine and had a > nice, big Trail-Rite label on it. I had wondered why mine had a square > of metal welded on the top of the rear part of the tongue - the trailer > I saw tonight had a vertical hole there, apparently for an OEM crank-up > wheel (but it had a clamp on wheel farther forward, just like mine > does), so that solved my trailer questions. > > Now for the weird part. As I mentioned here before, my boat has no > length number in the Hull ID. That is, it's #MMP3341081. Does anyone > else have a number like this? > > Anyway, my boat fits in with what I've read here about the changes made > for 1981. It has the larger deck-hull flange, the non-cut out transom, > the wet locker, and the rimless windows. The boat I was looking at > tonight was the older style. It had the smoother-flanged hull-to-deck > connection, a transom cut-out, and aluminum-rimmed windows. So imagine > my surprise when I looked at the serial number and it was MMP173340481 > ! > > So there are (at least) two M-17s that are boat #334 , although the > whole serial number isn't the same, of course. I went all the way to > Texas to pick up my boat, and now the two 334s are practically re-united > :-) I still think it's a little strange that two boats would have the > same number, especially since they were made six months apart, so it's > not like they just accidentally forgot to change the number for the next > boat out of the mold. Had the boat-shop crew just discovered a new kind > of beverage? :-) > > I'm also wondering about the Lake Pepin get-together that was mentioned > for mid-July. Is anyone here going? I'd like to go, but I'd be > sailboat-less - would anyone like to show off their M? > > Hope everyone has a great 4th --- Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: boat mysteries: one solved and a new one Date: 02 Jul 1999 12:08:46 -0500 Jerry, Thanks for shedding a little light on the mystery. I _knew_ the mis-numbering wasn't your fault :-) Anyway, I'm glad to hear that my boat isn't a very cleverly constructed fake made by a another company - I started to get just a tad worried with the combination of no 17 in the number and then seeing another 334... I can't wait to have a "first sail" story to post, but it won't be for a while yet. Until then I'll be sailing vicariously through the list --- Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Boom Crutch Date: 03 Jul 1999 22:00:00 -0700 AZSKYBUM@aol.com wrote: > > I am looking for ideas, pro and con on getting one of these for my M-17.I > don't know if that is the correct name They are called boom gallows but on a small boat like the M-17 a small rigid boomvang is a better choice and really is nice when reefing. Dick M-23 Sadhana ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dan Diehlman" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M boat on ebay Date: 03 Jul 1999 22:06:14 -0700 Curtis....where in CA is that boat? Have asked the seller twice, with no reply ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KMurphyAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M boat on ebay Date: 04 Jul 1999 07:18:11 EDT I asked the seeler what the reserve price was .....no reply.... beware of no reply sellers. Kris ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KMurphyAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M boat on ebay Date: 04 Jul 1999 07:19:05 EDT PS.... I bought the M17 a couple of weeks ago via ebay. working out fine, but there is no replacement for an onsite inspection..... especially for a boat. Kris ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZSKYBUM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M boat on ebay Date: 04 Jul 1999 14:12:50 EDT He dosen't answer my email either..I figured low retail of $4000..$500..to drag it back to Arizona...$1000 profit..you wouldn't want to pay more than $2500.. if some one on the list wants it I have made my final bid at $2025-..my wife thinks I am nuts since we have a M-17 already that I intend to keep forever. Curtis Clark "Estoy Perdido" M17 Scottsdale, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail !@#!! You wouldn't have admitted you knew me Date: 04 Jul 1999 11:26:14 -0700 Alan: my sister had been driving accident-free for some years. She got involved (her fault) in a fender-bender. Her comment:"well, I got that out of my system - now I don't have to do it again!" Just think of all the problems you've now anticipated and gotten out of the way !! You can look forward to years of trouble-free sailing. I'm envious. Cheers -- dwf -----Original Message----- Alan Fujii M-15 Hull #125 - Haiku ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "L. Ingalls" Subject: M_Boats: Moving Date: 05 Jul 1999 08:14:07 -0700 Hi all, I found a nice home on Camano Island (with a launch ramp a mile away). I'll be off line for a couple of weeks. Looking forward to having all this out of the way. I'm going through withdrawals; it's been three months since I've had "Puppy" in the water. Later Lee M15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail !@#!! You wouldn't have admitted you knew me Date: 05 Jul 1999 10:39:22 PDT Alan, The truth be known... most of us have had an experience that is similar. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: macinkos@micronet.net (Seth Macinko) Subject: M_Boats: way north M-15 for sale Date: 05 Jul 1999 10:12:27 -0800 Long shot?: Just in case anyone has a burning desire to travel to southeast Alaska (Juneau) and tow a M-15 home, our M-15 is for sale. We're moving to the east coast and the M-15 just doesn't fit into our moving plans. The boat is set up for single-handing (see old newsletter issues) and comes with a Honda 2HP four stroke outboard. I've sailed this boat 12 months out of the year up here and everything is in fine shape plus some nice extras like custom "bottom siders" cockpit cushions. Shipping (by barge) to the P. Northwest is feasible (thats how I got the boat up here) but does represent another cost. If anyone is interested or wants more details, please reply to me directly OFF the list. Thanks, Seth M-15 #200 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Moving Date: 05 Jul 1999 14:42:05 -0700 L. Ingalls wrote: > > Hi all, > I found a nice home on Camano Island (with a launch ramp a mile away). > I'll be off line for a couple of weeks. Looking forward to having all this > out of the way. I'm going through withdrawals; it's been three months > since I've had "Puppy" in the water. > Later > Lee > M15 Congrats on the new house- and only a mile from a launch ramp- good job! Now if it will only stop raining... just teasing; hope you get back to enjoying Puppy again soon. Fran M15, #236, with new Jib downhaul now installed! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail !@#!! You wouldn't have admitted you knew me Date: 05 Jul 1999 15:07:31 -0700 Alan J. Fujii wrote: > Thought I would tell the group about my embarrassing day. > > Alan Fujii > M-15 Hull #125 - Haiku Alan, Wow! What a day! Glad it wasn't any worse; you really learned alot, I'm sure. You have alot of guts for going out in your new M15 so soon after purchase. I'm so cautious, every square inch of our 'new' M15, bought in late March 99, was gone over to make sure it was in 'ship shape'. Of course, I love tinkering with it almost as much as sailing it, but it helped make our first sail a little less eventful than yours. Big Bear Lake has no bridges,etc. and is nice for sailing on weekdays during the summer. Weekends find many motor boats on the water, but not a bad time either. You're welcome to visit us up there. Fran M15, #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail !@#!! You wouldn't have admitted you knew me Date: 05 Jul 1999 19:56:58 EDT In a message dated 7/5/99 10:40:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time, sparsons@canby.com writes: << Alan, The truth be known... most of us have had an experience that is similar. Steve >> It's just that most of us have a hard time admitting it...........and laughing at our mistakes............you're the lucky one....hehe, Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 05 Jul 1999 20:28:24 -0400 Bill, Thanks for the rudder refresher. I now have the Rudder Zen firmly under control. As you prpobably read in my memo to Jerry, I opened up the centerboard slot and found my leak, which has been fixed. To close the larger hole I made a teak plug the just fits the slot and which extends to either side and covers the edges. I drilled a hole for the centerboard pennant and also made it smaller so that in a seaway it won't squirt as much (unless it lifts off my plug and then I'll really get wet!) Launching at a local lake is foreseen for later this week, so that I can get in some shake-down sails before the grandchildren arrive the end of the month. Have a good summer, and good sailing. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "T. Panzer" Subject: M_Boats: unsubscribe Date: 05 Jul 1999 21:23:12 -0700 (PDT) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JeepersIII@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Unsubscribe Date: 06 Jul 1999 02:47:23 EDT Unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: M_Boats: unsubscribe Date: 06 Jul 1999 07:18:51 -0700 unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: M_Boats: How to Unsubscribe from the list Date: 06 Jul 1999 20:19:58 -0600 To remove yourself from this list, send mail from your subscribed address to majordomo@xmission.com with only unsubscribe montgomery_boats in the body of the message. Keith Diehl - Salt Lake City, UT www.xmission.com/~kdiehl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: M_Boats: Hello out there! Date: 07 Jul 1999 21:31:08 -0700 Anyone been getting M list email the last couple of days? I'm wondering if it's just a lull, or some computer glitch. I've decided to make cockpit cushions. Anyone else done so and have any tips? I've read the archives about others who have adapted various other products for use as cockpit cushions. Mine aren't going to be fancy- just 1" foam with marine vinyl over them. I'm not even putting in zippers. We'd also like to get a two person kayak to use when not sailing. Anyone recommend a brand that's lightweight, comfortable and handles well? Thanks~ Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello out there! Date: 07 Jul 1999 21:49:16 -0700 Fran, The M-net has just been slow during the holidays. Hopefully it means that folks are actually sailing instead of just talking about it. My boat has the original factory cockpit cushions. They are a mixed blessing. Without them your fanny gets sore after a hard day of sailing. When you have to access a cockpit locker or stow the cushions for traveling, they become a bit of a nuisance. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: debaene jan Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello out there! Date: 08 Jul 1999 08:25:34 -0500 (CDT) Fran, I personally have paddled in a few 1 person kayaks, but don't have to much experience with 2 person ones. I have a good friend at a big canoe & kayak shop who would be very helpful in giving you some advice. His name is Darren Bush and they have a web site about kayaks: http://www.paddlers.com/kayaks/ykayaks.htm Say hello from me if you contact him (maybe you'll get a discount) and good luck. Jan Debaene On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Francene Lebowitz wrote: ... > We'd also like to get a two person kayak to use when not sailing. > Anyone recommend a brand that's lightweight, comfortable and handles > well? > Thanks~ > Fran > P.S.: Darren's email is ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZSKYBUM@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 on Ebay Date: 08 Jul 1999 11:10:14 EDT Thanks everyone for the posting about the M-15 on E-bay. I ended up as the high bidder and now have a M-15 to go with my M-17. As always there are catches to buying something sight unseen, I just hope they are minor. Since I only had two days off this week and the seller is moving tomorrow Dennis at the Sailboat Shop here in Tempe, Arizona said he would drive over to Fremont, California, near San Jose, and tow it back, what a guy! The boat supposedly has only been sailed twice and has been stored in a garage when not in use. I just hope that the one sail wasn't onto the rocks and abandoned in heavy surf! Thanks for the words of caution and advise from everyone. Now for a name...hhhhhmmmm...E-Boat?.. my wife suggested For Sale.... Curtis Clark M-17 "ESTOY PERDIDO" M-15 " _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ " Scottsdale, Arizona ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mclain, Mac" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Hello out there! Date: 08 Jul 1999 08:35:35 -0700 Fran, I get asked that question about single and doubles often and my reply for most paddlers is to get a couple of kiwi. They are real cheep, short ( 8 feet or so ) stable and with a good strong-light paddle can get you almost anywhere. I have seen them out in the mouth of the Columbia and Nahalum bay and up all sorts of rivers. They cost about $400 (summer time winter $300) and a good paddle cost almost half that much, but don't scrimp on the paddle. Last weekend when I was up in Port Townsend I saw a knock-off Kiwi double with a long single cockpit. I was about 10 ft. long but the front seat was adjustable could be slid back to the center and then one person could paddle it and it would still be balances. The problem with little double like that is you have to paddle in sink. Really the power person should be up front taking long strong strokes and the second person follow the sink of the front person but because they also rudder with there paddle they have less time for their stroke so there stroke is shorter. But you know most of the time who is in the back, the man with the more powerful stroke. If you have both been solo paddlers for a while, so that both have developed your skills like having a good even stroke ( the boat goes straight all by itself ). Then you decide to get a double the only light boats that don't paddle like dogs (most plastic double) are fiberglass or wood-epoxy. Pigmy boats has two wood-epoxy doubles that are very light and paddle very good, but they come in kit form (stitch and glue). The nicest one is really a triple, but it has the advantage that when two people paddle it they don't clank paddles and don't have to be in sink, plus when one person paddles it they can sit in the center cockpit and it balanced. Last summer when I paddled from Portland to Astoria and decide to take Boss-doggye-dog. I had to put 5 one gallon bottles of water in the front plus Boss (65 lbs.) or about 105 lbs. to get my 2 person to balance out. Well go luck on your search. Mac Portland, Or. M-15 #380 We'd also like to get a two person kayak to use when not sailing. Anyone recommend a brand that's lightweight, comfortable and handles well? Thanks~ Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello out there! Date: 08 Jul 1999 15:35:02 EDT Don't know about the kayak, but don't use standard foam rubber for the cockpit cushions,.....Wet it will stink.......use the closed cell foam only....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KMurphyAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 on Ebay Date: 08 Jul 1999 16:23:03 EDT I finally got an email back from the guy..claimed he was out of town.... no idea about condition of boat.....I think you got a great deal.... would have bought it myself for $2200....... wouldn't though without some representations about condition. KM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: kayaks Date: 09 Jul 1999 00:22:19 PDT I don't know if they are any good or not, but someone on the Trailer Sailor was talking about these a little while back....just another series to consider.... A cheap plastic kayak sounds like a good dinghy for a M-boat. Even if it had a fully retractable keel like the Potters, a cheap plastic dinghy sounds good to me. A whole lot better than gelcoat on sand or stone, anyway. http://www.cobrakayaks.com Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Rafferty" Subject: Re: M_Boats: kayaks Date: 08 Jul 1999 21:52:35 PDT Re: the perfect tender, I have an 8ft Portabote. I strongly believe it to be the perfect tender for a pocket cruiser. When folded, it fits perfectly between lifelines and the doghouse along the forequarter. These portabotes are bulletproof, and have positive flotation even while swamped. Raff M23 #26 Summer Solstice >From: "htmills@bright.net" >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: "Montgomery Boats" >Subject: M_Boats: kayaks >Date: Fri, 09 Jul 99 00:22:19 PDT > >I don't know if they are any good or not, but someone >on the Trailer Sailor was talking about these a little while >back....just another series to consider.... > >A cheap plastic kayak sounds like a good dinghy for a >M-boat. Even if it had a fully retractable keel like the >Potters, a cheap plastic dinghy sounds good to me. A >whole lot better than gelcoat on sand or stone, anyway. > >http://www.cobrakayaks.com > >Tod > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello out there! Date: 09 Jul 1999 15:12:49 -0700 Jan, Thanks for the info on kayaks. I appreciate your help. Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Haas Subject: M_Boats: m-Boats for Sale Date: 09 Jul 1999 21:02:31 -0700 --------------00F28D4111099DDD8640CC3B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found these in the July 48 Degrees North Magazine and web site; Montgomery 15 ...... $5,500 Fairhaven Boatworks 501 Harris, Bellingham WA 98225 (360) 647-2469 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1983 MONTGOMERY 17 Four sails, DS, VHF, two compassed, two anchors with rodes, sea swing stove, extra long shaft Nissan 5 hp, custom awnings and cockpit cushions, porta-potti, "salt water" trailer (galv. frame/bronze disk brakes), autopilot and virtually everything else you'd want for cruising. Pale cream topsides and deck with dark green top strake and boot top. This handsome well loved boat can continue making owners happy. Currently at Vancouver, BC, handy for a cruise in the San Juans/Gulf Islands. $6,900 US/ono. Phone Bill at (604) 926-6225 or bill_kinsey@bc.sympatico.ca found this one at www.48north.com --------------00F28D4111099DDD8640CC3B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found these in the July 48 Degrees North Magazine and web site;

Montgomery 15    ......  $5,500
Fairhaven Boatworks
501 Harris, Bellingham WA 98225
(360) 647-2469

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1983 MONTGOMERY 17 Four sails, DS, VHF, two compassed, two anchors with
rodes, sea swing stove, extra long shaft Nissan 5 hp, custom awnings and
cockpit cushions, porta-potti, "salt water" trailer (galv. frame/bronze
disk brakes), autopilot and virtually everything else you'd want for cruising.
Pale cream topsides and deck with dark green top strake and boot top. This
handsome well loved boat can continue making owners happy. Currently at
Vancouver, BC, handy for a cruise in the San Juans/Gulf Islands. $6,900
US/ono. Phone Bill at (604) 926-6225 or bill_kinsey@bc.sympatico.ca

found this one at  www.48north.com
  --------------00F28D4111099DDD8640CC3B-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Haas Subject: M_Boats: M7.11 Questions Date: 09 Jul 1999 21:20:09 -0700 A couple of weeks ago I posted that I had purchased an M7.11, Hull # 152. I have a couple of questions I hope someone who has had one can answer. First, The rigging. It looks like the mainsheet set up is the same as the M-15, a line for the bridle with a double pulley, a block on the end of the boom and a block directly above the mainsheet cleat. There is another block on the boom positioned about 4 inches forward of the block that lines up with the main sheet cleat. Any idea what might the forward block might be used for? Is the boom supposed to be curved? The arc matches the foot of the sail, so I wonder if that is the way it should look. The wooden cross piece with the hole for the mast has a 3/8" hole on the port side and a small jam cleat on the starboard side. I assume that the cleat is for the line attached to the foot of the sail, but what might the small hole be for? Finally, there are two bulkheads for seating or buoyancy. Each has a stopper plug. Are these to add water for ballast or do they act as drains? thanks for any insights. Don Haas M15-248 M7'11" - 152 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZYacht@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M7.11 Questions Date: 10 Jul 1999 04:02:21 EDT Don, I can help with 2 of your questions: 1. the "mast partner" or 'board with the hole where the mast goes thru' has a single hole and a cleat on the opposite side; this acts as a cunningham or downhaul and also secures the rig (via the sail) to the boat in the event of capsize. The line is dead ended at the bottom of the partner with a stopper knot, up thru the partner, thru the grommet at the tack of the sail and down to the cleat. The rig is attached to the boat and you have a downhaul / cunningham for the sail. 2. The small drain holes with plugs are just that- drain holes for the floatation tanks. Jerry had the foresight NOT to install foam floatation and used air tanks instead. Now imagine taking your boat from one extreme in elevation to another and you realize the need for vents/drains. 3. I have my 7-11 put away and I dont remember if the block you refer to is a part of the mainsheet or possibly part of a vang??? someone else should know or I can look at the boat in the next week or so. I dont believe the boom should be bent....unless its an early model M-17.......(ha ha ha) P.S. I believe the 7-11 is a good sailer but think its forte is rowing with a reasonable load. Definitely try yours with 7' (?) oars. I have a pair of Shaw&Tenney's that are a fixture with the boat and see duty as power/exercise for rec rowing and flyflickin! ....probably my favorite configuration for the boat! Have a ton o' fun! Gary O. gilasailr@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZYacht@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M7.11 Questions Date: 10 Jul 1999 04:04:48 EDT Don, DO NOT ADD H2O FOR BALLAST ......it will make for one rude boat and you would lose a lot of freeboard to boot. Gary O. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lars S. Mulford" Subject: M_Boats: "Aqua" update Date: 10 Jul 1999 10:54:33 -0400 > Montgomery Sailors: > > "Aqua" is still for sale; we need to move her. Anyone interested, please > email. We will not turn down any reasonable offer. A sailboat is meant to > be sailed, not sitting on the trailer all summer. Make your offer and take > her home. We are located in Southern DE; delivery is possible. > > Here is info on "Aqua", a Windrider trimaran that we bought new a few months > ago: > > Aqua is completely optioned out, has the Windrider trailer with 12" tires & > rims and see thru bearing buddies. It comes with the following options plus > much more stuff: spray diverter, built in bilge pump, tillar system, > trampolines kit, heavy duty cockpit cover w/windshield, customized trailer > w/12" tires & hubs and see thru bearing buddies, heavy duty spray skirt, > radio, paddle/boathook, and bunches more. > > Windrider sails flat, sails fast, has decent storage space, has roller > furling/reefing main, and is a breeze to sail. You can steer with your feet > with rudder pedals (like an aircraft) or you can use the tillar arms to > steer with your hands. Or, if you want to ride a trampoline, you can steer > from the trampoline as well - the tillar arms swing out expressedly for that > purpose. Another thing about the boat is that it sails amazingly quiet. It > moves almost silently through the water; it is almost eerie. (I surprised a > clammer on Rehoboth Bay when I ghosted past him at around 4 knots and he > never heard me, even though I passed within 20' of him! When I hollered out > to say hi, he nearly came out of his skin!) > > The boat also trailers so easily that you forget about it being behind you. > We have towed it behind a Geo Metro 2 dr (3 cyl engine) and you never knew > it was there - it is THAT easy and light to trailer. > > For someone looking for an eyecatching daysailor for family, this would make > a neat boat. Or, load it up with your tent and camping gear and disappear > for a weekend with it. Your horizons are definitely expanded when you can > cruise quite comfortably and effortlessly at 8 knots. > > Make me an offer and it is yours. > > -- > "Sea" ya! > > --Lars S. Mulford, President > East Coast Potter Association (ECPA) > Come visit us at http://members.tripod.com/~SpeedSailor > s/v Aqua (sailing the greater Chesapeake region) > "Forgive, and live. Life is worth the challenge of living." --LSSM > "Love is good; Love hurts; Love sustains; Love remains." --LSSM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lars S. Mulford" Subject: M_Boats: mystery caller Date: 10 Jul 1999 11:43:06 -0400 Greetings East Coasties, Web Gang, Montgomery Sailors: Someone who saw the original ad for "Aqua" on one of the lists called my home about a week or so ago. I was unavailable. Would that person please call back - I am free to discuss the boat and whatnot. Interested parties please call (302) 628-1224 and if you don't get through, leave a message and I will return your call promptly. Otherwise, you can email to mulford@bellatlantic.net. Thanks! -- "Sea" ya! --Lars S. Mulford, President East Coast Potter Association (ECPA) Come visit us at http://members.tripod.com/~SpeedSailor s/v Aqua (sailing the greater Chesapeake region) "Forgive, and live. Life is worth the challenge of living." --LSSM "Love is good; Love hurts; Love sustains; Love remains." --LSSM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello out there! Date: 10 Jul 1999 13:39:22 -0700 Francene: do a scan or search on the Trailer Sailor BB. There have been several posts lately on cushion material. I'm looking at using the ready-made "self-skinned" cushions sold by Boat/US, and often on sale there. WM probably also has them. Someplace in San Diego is (was?) a foam supplier. Try your Yellow Pages. On the kayaks. Someone noted that two might be better than one. I'd second that in many cases. A single will be lighter, one of you could go by yourself more easily, and there's never a question about who's sitting behind loafing while the one in front is doing all the work. As you probably know there a good kayak shop on Mission Bay - I think it's Southwind, but I'm not sure. Also REI on Convoy St. has several kayaks. I have a Walden Paddlers, about the same thing as a Keowee. Not fast, but very usable. If you don't buy a kayak(s) before next I'm down there, I'd be pleased to let you try it. Daughter Lisa thinks it's just great - she'd rather use it than go sailing. Some folks talk about using a kayak as a dinghy. Getting into one from the height of the average boat deck is a *really* good trick - and once you're that wet, you might as wel swim! Best -- dwf -----Original Message----- >Anyone been getting M list email the last couple of days? I'm wondering >if it's just a lull, or some computer glitch. I've decided to make >cockpit cushions. Anyone else done so and have any tips? I've read the >archives about others who have adapted various other products for use as >cockpit cushions. Mine aren't going to be fancy- just 1" foam with >marine vinyl over them. I'm not even putting in zippers. > We'd also like to get a two person kayak to use when not sailing. >Anyone recommend a brand that's lightweight, comfortable and handles >well? >Thanks~ >Fran > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Haas Subject: Re: M_Boats: M7.11 Questions Date: 10 Jul 1999 13:57:29 -0700 Thanks for the quick response. The description of the cunningham/downhaul line makes sense. The sail had a line attached to the clew so that threw me off. The boat came with a set of oars, but were in pretty bad shape. The blades were delaminating and almost all the varnish was gone. I'm in the process of trying to rescue them; epoxy and clamps solved the delamination problem and I am filling some other minor cracking with epoxy. One more sanding and they will be ready to varnish. Just checked, they are six footers. Looking forward to getting it in the water soon. There are some places close by to small for the 15' that should be about right for the little one. Thanks, Again, Don dshaas@sprintmail.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` AZYacht@aol.com wrote: > Don, > I can help with 2 of your questions: > 1. the "mast partner" or 'board with the hole where the mast goes thru' has > a single hole and a cleat on the opposite side; this acts as a cunningham or > downhaul and also secures the rig (via the sail) to the boat in the event of > capsize. The line is dead ended at the bottom of the partner with a stopper > knot, up thru the partner, thru the grommet at the tack of the sail and down > to the cleat. The rig is attached to the boat and you have a downhaul / > cunningham for the sail. > 2. The small drain holes with plugs are just that- drain holes for the > floatation tanks. Jerry had the foresight NOT to install foam floatation and > used air tanks instead. Now imagine taking your boat from one extreme in > elevation to another and you realize the need for vents/drains. > 3. I have my 7-11 put away and I dont remember if the block you refer to is > a part of the mainsheet or possibly part of a vang??? someone else should > know or I can look at the boat in the next week or so. I dont believe the > boom should be bent....unless its an early model M-17.......(ha ha ha) > P.S. I believe the 7-11 is a good sailer but think its forte is rowing with a > reasonable load. Definitely try yours with 7' (?) oars. I have a pair of > Shaw&Tenney's that are a fixture with the boat and see duty as power/exercise > for rec rowing and flyflickin! ....probably my favorite configuration for the > boat! > Have a ton o' fun! > Gary O. > gilasailr@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jslubliner@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M7.11 Questions Date: 10 Jul 1999 18:47:40 EDT List question: Does anyone know anything about a Victoria 18? Full underbody, cute, looks nice on trailer but tiny. Have a friend interested in one and thought I'd see if anyone had any info to pass along - John & Coyote - Tucson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: ... some more questions... Date: 10 Jul 1999 20:04:32 -0700 I've been fiddling again (while my main is at the sailmaker for that 2nd set of reef points) and have a couple of questions I hope someone can help me with: I'd like to get at my main halyard and jiffy reef lines from the same (starboard) side of the boat, making reefing easier. I'll switch the jib halyard over to the port side, so it's on the same side as the downhaul, and put the main halyard to starboard. I'd have to add a deck cheek block, a deck swivel block, and a jam cleat, but then I'd have cockpit access to both halyards, an advantage when sailing alone. Is the winch on the port side of the cabin top for working the main halyard? I've never needed to use it. I wonder if it would be of use raising the jib? The only winches I've used so far are the ones for the jib sheets. -Peter- ------------- Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: ... some more questions... Date: 10 Jul 1999 21:16:22 -0700 Peter Jacobs wrote: > Is the winch on the port side of the cabin top for working the main > halyard? I've never needed to use it. I wonder if it would be of use > raising the jib? The only winches I've used so far are the ones for the > jib sheets. > > -Peter- > ------------- Peter, I route both halyards and the jib downhaul along the winch side of the house (port) and use a Lewmar cam clutch to hold the luff tension on both sails on M 23 Sadhana. Is very easy to reef or douse the jib/spindrifter single handed. Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: M_Boats: Administrative test - please ignore Date: 11 Jul 1999 10:03:28 -0600 Keith Diehl - Salt Lake City, UT www.xmission.com/~kdiehl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: M Boats for sale Date: 11 Jul 1999 14:39:46 EDT Ahoy the list, In the current on line Latitude 38 classifieds for the month of July, there are listings for an M15, & M17, for sale. Happy Sails to you all. Roy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello out there! Date: 09 Jul 1999 20:45:10 -0400 Fran, I queried the web site about cockpit cushions too, and got a lot of input: both for and against. The "against" said that they slide off the cockpit seat when heeled, and so, live most of the time in the cabin. The "for" saaid they were a benefit, and could live with them sliding when heeled. So, before I committed to buying fitted cushions I decided to try out some old porch chair cushions that had been replace with "new and improved" cushions. These old cushions had about 1" foam, and were covere with cotton material - nothing fancy; no vinyl. Result: I'm perfectly happy - and so is my wife - with the improvised cushions. They are comfortable to lie on, and I double them and sit on them, and find them quite comfortable. So, my input is, get yourself some porch chair cushions and try them out before you spend a lot of money for custom made cockpit cushions. In your sailing area, and with your type of sailing, you may find that they are perfectly satisfactory - as we did. Dan Diehlman, who had a set of custom made cockpit cushions, said he never used them. They just lived in the cabin. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 11 Jul 1999 21:23:47 -0400 Bill, Replacing the bungee cord in your rudder is no big deal. I put in a new bungee when I had the rudder apart to take out the play between the rudderblade and the head. Can't stand slop in the tiller / rudderblade system when sailing. Just remove the nuts and bolts and it all comes apart. Just keep track of how it all goes back together again! Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZSKYBUM@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: E-Boat Date: 11 Jul 1999 22:12:29 EDT Well gang the Montgomey 15 off of E-Bay is now at my house in Scottsdale, Arizona...now the big question..was it the deal of the century?? Sorry gang there is no free lunch..I never looked at the boat but took the sellers word on condition, use, etc. Well as the saying goes if you don't ask the right questions, da, da, da... The boat must have been parked near one of those famous California brush fires, it is full of soot and has some nasty stains on the repainted deck that will require a complete refinishing inside and out...I have seen ALOT worse for more money, but think of the valuable experience I will get. The jib, mast, boom, rudder, and cushins are like new, they were definatly somewhere else. The main is new with no wear except for the nasty black-grey soot stains, hopefully they can be removed. The M-15 is a dream to tow you can't even tell it is back there. It is sure a cool little boat. Thanks for the encouragement I will keep everyone posted on the restoration. Curtis Clark Scottsdale, Arizona M-17 Estoy Perdido M-15 ____________ P.S. There is an older M-17 for sail at the Sailboat Shop in Tempe, Arizona for $3995-, I also saw two other M-17's they have in for service. Visit them at www.sailaz.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bownez@juno.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: Pepin? Date: 11 Jul 1999 23:18:38 -0500 Hi Rachel, Yes, I am aware of the Pepin get-together next weekend. I have a commitment Sat afternoon, so I thought I would try to come to Dan's Pepin Marina Sat morning to see if I could meet with some of the Montgomery folks. I will not be bringing my M17 down. I talked with Rick ( a M17 owner )at Lake Waconia earlier today and he is planning to pull his boat and come down. Anyway, I have not been in touch with any other owners, yet I believe the meeting spot is Pepin, WI. Please listers correct me if I'm wrong. Hope to cross paths and perhaps meet the owner of "Praririe Girl" a NorSea 27 in the same town. I'll look for you Rachel. later, Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: way north M-15 for sale Date: 12 Jul 1999 19:14:54 EDT Hi Seth any chance your moving to the the mid atlantic area. Sure would be nice to hook up with you again. Let me know and good luck with your move. Take Care Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 12 Jul 1999 19:59:04 -0700 Could someone on the list tell me where I can get more info on the M-23? Thanks! -Peter- -- Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 12 Jul 1999 21:57:13 -0400 Connie, Yep. I made a diagram of the whole rudder assembly. Good thing, too, since I had time over the winter and I didn't put it back together for a couple of months. I was just afraid I would lose the diagram! I was thinking of replacing the shock cord, but it was still in good shape, and it's an antique after all. The only trick might have been getting a new one of the same size and strength. Did you have any trouble finding a suitable replacement? Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 12 Jul 1999 23:00:10 EDT Start with www.xmisson.com/~kdiehl/ Roy/Bakersfield ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: cockpit cushions Date: 12 Jul 1999 21:04:36 -0700 Conbert H Benneck wrote: . > my input is, get yourself some porch chair cushions and try them out > before you spend a lot of money for custom made cockpit cushions. > Connie, I was tempted to look for thin chair cushions, but being experienced with sewing, I bought some marine UV Vinyl that was being clearanced for $4. a yard and a piece of 1" foam plus one of those 1/2" closed-cell foam rolls that you use under sleeping bags, special nylon thread and two size 18 sewing machine needles. Assembled it all into two snug fitting cushions. Those two pieces of wood on either side of the cabin doorway will hold down the fore end of the cushions. We'll see if they stay put; there's always Velcro. Total cost of materials was $42. Chair cushions new are around that much, but are not an exact fit. But definitely a clever solution especially if you find ones that a close fit. Fran M15 #236 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats:cushions and kayaks Date: 12 Jul 1999 21:50:37 -0700 Dennis, I thought those cushions at BoatUS were a good idea, too, but Lee wanted ones that would fit the entire seat, about 67 1/2". The BoatUS ones were 52". So I made my own this past weekend. Went to Big Bear- it was raining alot, but a nice change. Damp forest smells and no sunscreen needed. But no sailing; next weekend hopefully. Kayak ideas: yes, I've heard about the advantages of 2 singles; Lee wants to get one kayak; that IS simpler. He doesn't like to do stuff by himself and knows I'm not as strong a paddler as he is. That's OK> We are looking for a sit inside kind that moves well and is not too heavy to put on top of our Toyota. We've been to Southwind, but not recently. They have alot to chose from there- I wasn't paying much attention last time we went down many moons ago. Never checked out REI. Are they online? Thanks for the ideas. Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 13 Jul 1999 16:19:29 EDT Could someone on the list tell me where I can get more info on the M-23? Peter That's a good question..............I have an M-23 and would be happy to tell you what I know........... Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse Phx, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mclain, Mac" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 13 Jul 1999 14:33:15 -0700 Lenny, Peter is not the only one that would like to know more about the M-23. I only get E-mail so If you can include that info on the boat list I would love to hear about it. Do pictures come threw the boat list, If so I would enjoy see a picture of yours. Mac M-15 #380 Beaverton, Or -----Original Message----- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com [mailto:AirEvacLen@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 1:19 PM To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Could someone on the list tell me where I can get more info on the M-23? Peter That's a good question..............I have an M-23 and would be happy to tell you what I know........... Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse Phx, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 13 Jul 1999 15:09:56 -0700 AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > > Could someone on the list tell me where I can get more info on the M-23? > > Peter > That's a good question..............I have an M-23 and would be happy > to tell you what I know........... > > Lenny > M-23#003 > Sea Horse > Phx, Az Well, I'd like to see some pictures, and maybe get a little history. There's an excellent history of the M17 in the archives, and I was hoping for something like that. Right now it's just a mild curiosity, but the symptoms seem strangely familiar! -Peter- -- ====================== Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria, BC CA http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 13 Jul 1999 16:39:53 -0600 Normally, no. Pictures are too large for the message size filter that xmission imposes. If you have way cool pictures, I'd be glad to post them on my web page. Keith Diehl - Salt Lake City, UT www.xmission.com/~kdiehl -----Original Message----- . Do pictures come threw the boat list, If so I would >enjoy see a picture of yours. >Mac M-15 #380 Beaverton, Or ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 13 Jul 1999 19:05:10 EDT In a message dated 7/13/99 15:10:07 US Mountain Standard Time, pjacobs@islandnet.com writes: << There's an excellent history of the M17 in the archives, and I was hoping for something like that. Right now it's just a mild curiosity, but the symptoms seem strangely familiar! >> Peter As they should be............Keith has done an excellent job of gathering data on the 17's and you will find the archives superb........however, according to Jerry M, and his fading memory, there were only 18, or 19 M-23's made.......and their owners seem to be a bit recluse.........'cept for me and Dick in Ca. There was a list of 23's put out not long ago with owners and e-mail address........I've got it somewhere..........I think. Don't think pictures will transmit over the list, though. You and Mac are welcome to e-mail me direct and we'll see what we can do. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 13 Jul 1999 19:13:29 EDT In a message dated 7/12/99 7:55:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pjacobs@islandnet.com writes: << Could someone on the list tell me where I can get more info on the M-23? Thanks! -Peter- >> Peter, I have some pictures, a factory brochure,(copy) and a copy of a Montgomery news letter article, that I can make copies of and mail to you, I don't have a scanner. If you would e-mail me your address of the list, I would be happy to send you what I have. It was provided to me by Mike Rafferty, the proud owner of M23, hull#26. Contact me at Wee sail@aol.com if you would like this info. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 13 Jul 1999 20:27:01 -0400 Bill, The bungee cord is a standard diameter - don't recall off the top of my head what it was - but if you measure it (or the hole it fits in) you will have the proper diameter. Measure what you've got and go a bit longer so that you can put knots on the inside ends, then you can cut off what you don't need. It's a lot easier to have more length when making the knots (figure 8) than trying to do it in the last three inches - which is very hard to do. After all, an extra foot of bungee is only going to cost $0.25! Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: cockpit cushions Date: 13 Jul 1999 20:34:09 -0400 Fran, We already had the porch chair cushions and wanted to give them a try before going to the troiuble of making new ones, which we have done before. They were so satisfactory, that they are being used just as they are. The nice part about them is that they are soft enough so that they stow easily down below (or lean them against the hull sides so that you don't get a cold shoulder!). I have another project at the moment. I have cut out the starboard sail locker "well" so that I can have access to the storage space below the molded in well. The job is half finished, but I think when I'm done, I'll have the benefit of the shallow locker for small stuff, but with the capability of lifting it out and having access to the whole storage area that lies beneath the molded locker. Will keep the list advised on my progress and the results of the modification. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 13 Jul 1999 21:59:01 -0400 Hi Peter.. I think that I have a copy of a copy of the M-23 brochure..send me a fax number and I'll dig it out and send to you. Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats:locker room Date: 13 Jul 1999 20:11:45 -0700 Conbert H Benneck wrote: > > I have another project at the moment. I have cut out the starboard sail > locker "well" so that I can have access to the storage space below the > molded in well. > > The job is half finished, but I think when I'm done, I'll have the > benefit of the shallow locker for small stuff, but with the capability of > lifting it out and having access to the whole storage area that lies > beneath the molded locker. > > Will keep the list advised on my progress and the results of the > modification. > > Connie Good work, Connie. Our boat has two shallow lockers. I'd like to hear how and what you are doing to transform your locker. Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 14 Jul 1999 07:39:24 -0700 Weesail@aol.com wrote: > Peter, > > I have some pictures, a factory brochure,(copy) and a copy of a Montgomery > news letter article, that I can make copies of and mail to you, I don't have > a scanner. If you would e-mail me your address of the list, I would be happy > to send you what I have. It was provided to me by Mike Rafferty, the proud > owner of M23, hull#26. Contact me at Wee sail@aol.com if you would like this > info. Great!! I can scan them and send them to Keith for posting on his page, too. My address is Peter Jacobs 1080 Glen Forest Way Victoria BC V9C 3X8 Canada. Thanks!! -Peter- -- ====================== Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria, BC CA http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats:locker room Date: 14 Jul 1999 07:46:50 -0700 Francene Lebowitz wrote: > Good work, Connie. Our boat has two shallow lockers. I'd like to hear > how and what you are doing to transform your locker. > Fran I haven't been using those lockers because stuff slides up where it's not accessable. So I bought 2 Rubber Maid tubs, cut the bottom 1/3 off at an angle, and pushed this bottom piece into the locker opening. The edges just snap under the rim of the locker opening to make a neat (shallow) storage spot. Now to figure a way to access the rest of the locker, or maybe use the space for floatation material. -Peter- -- ====================== Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria, BC CA http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mclain, Mac" Subject: M_Boats: Oar locks for M-15 Date: 14 Jul 1999 07:58:21 -0700 Don,=20 I put a set of our temporarily oar lock on my M-15. They have a groove = on the bottom to fit over the wood molding and sit on the little lip = inside the molding too. Two C-clamps like aluminum blocks hold each side down and = in place. So by loosing two =BC-20 screws I can slide the assembly to = figure out where to finally place the permanent oar locks. I have a piece of = plywood across the seats and a 3" foam seat on top. There is a need for a foot = block to rest your heals against when rowing. Any way, My question is what = sort of oar locks are installed on your boat, and how did they install them. = Did the add backing under the gunnels because it seems a weak spot. What length = are your oars , mine are 9 =BD' and the lower 18" comes off so they store = easily inside the boat. Any more information on this subject would be great. I = have a 2.2 hp. OB but its a 2 cycle and is noisy and pollutes and I don't = plan on getting a Honda for a couple of years. I also have a kayaker mentality = and see no reason to use the OB except for a backup. Mac M-15 #380 Beaverton, Or. The boat came with a set of oars, but were in pretty bad shape. The = blades were delaminating and almost all the varnish was gone. I'm in the = process of trying to rescue them; epoxy and clamps solved the delamination = problem and I am filling some other minor cracking with epoxy. One more = sanding and they will be ready to varnish. Just checked, they are six footers. Looking forward to getting it in the water soon. There are some places close by to small for the 15' that should be about right for the little = one. Thanks, Again, Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 14 Jul 1999 11:51:35 EDT In a message dated 7/13/99 7:00:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, HarveyWilson@compuserve.com writes: << Hi Peter.. I think that I have a copy of a copy of the M-23 brochure..send me a fax number and I'll dig it out and send to you. Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 >> Peter, This sounds like a real brochure that Harvey is offering. I just dug through my personal archives, and what I have looks to be a copy of an ad. It doe's however list the specs, a diagram which is very faint, and some copy. I will send it for what ever its worth. the pictures are much better in quality, the majority of which are under sail. I will also include the news letter, and some other e-mail re: the M23. Richard Lane, who is on this list, has a M23 for sale. The Boat is in Redwood City, but Dick is in Port Townsend, Wash. His e-mail address is, rqlhgl@olypen.com I am sure he would be glad to help answer any questions you might have. Having said all that, I will get copies made, and in the mail ASAP. Happy Sails To You. Roy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Hatch Subject: M_Boats: M-17 search; alternatives? Date: 14 Jul 1999 12:25:43 -0400 My search for a Montgomery 17 in the eastern half of the country continues, and probably will not succeed until fall, as I assume people are sailing and enjoying their boats right now. But I also think I would be wise to consider alternatives, and I could use advice. If you couldn't have an M-17, what would you have? Considerations are sturdiness, performance, ease of launching. Will be sailed in Bay of Fundy/Passamaquoddy Bay area off Maine. Steve Hatch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mattwell@us.ibm.com Date: 14 Jul 1999 13:48:35 -0400 As I was composing this Steve Hatches email came in. I also have some (more) questions about alternatives to Montgomery boats in the NE. I bought a copy of Larry Brown's "Frugal Yachter" and found some good tidbits and advice therein. One of the boats he mentioned as being a candidate for a cheap(er) "pocket cruiser" sailboat is the Siren 17. They are available in relative abundance here in the NE and especially in Canada. Trailer+boat+motor+etc for $3k5 or sometimes even less. I'm not sure but I think there is some relationship between the Siren and Montgomery boats??? Any M-owners have experience with this boat or similar and can offer a comparison? One of the things that attracted me to the Montgomery boats (other than the design philosophy in general) was the lapstrake hull. The argument I've heard is that the lapstrake hull deflects waves away making for a drier boat. Any experiences to back that up? If so is it a trade off? I.e. does the lapstrake slow the boat down at all? I was also very interested in Potters but two things make me hesitate: A hard chine can be noisy and choppy in waves and apparently the Potter is slow. Again, any insight appreciated. Matt -- Worried about Y2K? Its Y6B that should have you scared... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan_Harstad@datacard.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: Date: 14 Jul 1999 14:59:09 -0500 I looked at a Siren once, it was awhile ago, I think the reason why I did not like it was the following: The cockpit is very strange, there is no place to sit, and it looks like it would be a very wet cockpit. Again, it was awhile ago, but I believe this is the reason why I passed on it. mattwell@us.ibm.com on 07/14/99 12:48:35 PM Please respond to montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com cc: (bcc: Bryan Harstad/US/DataCard) As I was composing this Steve Hatches email came in. I also have some (more) questions about alternatives to Montgomery boats in the NE. I bought a copy of Larry Brown's "Frugal Yachter" and found some good tidbits and advice therein. One of the boats he mentioned as being a candidate for a cheap(er) "pocket cruiser" sailboat is the Siren 17. They are available in relative abundance here in the NE and especially in Canada. Trailer+boat+motor+etc for $3k5 or sometimes even less. I'm not sure but I think there is some relationship between the Siren and Montgomery boats??? Any M-owners have experience with this boat or similar and can offer a comparison? One of the things that attracted me to the Montgomery boats (other than the design philosophy in general) was the lapstrake hull. The argument I've heard is that the lapstrake hull deflects waves away making for a drier boat. Any experiences to back that up? If so is it a trade off? I.e. does the lapstrake slow the boat down at all? I was also very interested in Potters but two things make me hesitate: A hard chine can be noisy and choppy in waves and apparently the Potter is slow. Again, any insight appreciated. Matt -- Worried about Y2K? Its Y6B that should have you scared... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Rafferty" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 14 Jul 1999 13:54:36 PDT Peter, I have owned M23,Summer Solstice for 9 years. What would you like to know? Mike Rafferty >From: Peter Jacobs >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: M_Boats: M-23 info >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:59:04 -0700 > >Could someone on the list tell me where I can get more info on the M-23? > >Thanks! > >-Peter- >-- >Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 >Victoria BC Canada >http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: Siren vs M-17 Date: 14 Jul 1999 17:00:59 EDT In a message dated 7/14/99 10:48:54 US Mountain Standard Time, mattwell@us.ibm.com writes: << I'm not sure but I think there is some relationship between the Siren and Montgomery boats??? >> Matt Not even close............a Siren is a friendly daysailer but the comparison stops there. I've owned an M-17 and had a friend with a Siren........IMHO not half the boat an M-17 is.........for starters, it's real tippy, not having a great deal of ballast, and displaces much less than the M-17. I doubt it would handle the rough weather well at all.......it's just a light duty boat. Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mattwell@us.ibm.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: Siren vs M-17 Date: 14 Jul 1999 17:32:31 -0400 Lenny, Ah, this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for and exactly the stuff that attracted me to the M series. Many thanks. Matt -- In a message dated 7/14/99 10:48:54 US Mountain Standard Time, mattwell@us.ibm.com writes: << I'm not sure but I think there is some relationship between the Siren and Montgomery boats??? >> Matt Not even close............a Siren is a friendly daysailer but the comparison stops there. I've owned an M-17 and had a friend with a Siren........IMHO not half the boat an M-17 is.........for starters, it's real tippy, not having a great deal of ballast, and displaces much less than the M-17. I doubt it would handle the rough weather well at all.......it's just a light duty boat. Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mclain, Mac" Subject: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 14 Jul 1999 16:44:54 -0700 Has anyone attached bungi cords to their tiller to keep it straight or pull it straight if you take your hand off it to adjust something else. I have been thinking of setting up something so when single handing I can let go of the tiller for a fue seconds. Maybe, put a couple of small cleats on both sides of the boat just for that reason. Mac M-15 #380 Beaverton , Or. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 14 Jul 1999 17:01:40 -0700 Mac: I'm using a set-up similar to that. Two doubled lengths of bungy, with a piece of braid between them. The bungies loop over the port and starboard cleats. On top of my tiller, about 4 - 6 inches abaft the forward end I have a jam cleat (not a clam cleat) into which I slip the braid. There is enough tension in the setup to keep the tiller in whatever position I put it in, yet I can move the tiller a bit. To make heading changes I pull the braid forward just a bit with one finger, move the tiller slightly, and let the braid slip back into the cleat. It's been quite satisfactory in light to moderate airs as long as I don't move around the boat too much. Moving around changes the heel and pitch angles and thus the sailing lines of the boat. It's not an autopilot, but I don't have to hold the tiller every moment. The idea isn't original with me, I modified it from Jobst Vandrey's photo - see 'Photographs of "Solar Wind" ' at http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/2727/ There are some other ideas out there - I collect them - but this is the easiest, cheapest, and seems to work on the M-15. Let me know if you have further questions Cheers -- dwf -----Original Message----- >Has anyone attached bungi cords to their tiller to keep it straight or pull >it straight if you take your hand off it to adjust something else. I have >been thinking of setting up something so when single handing I can let go of >the tiller for a fue seconds. Maybe, put a couple of small cleats on both >sides of the boat just for that reason. >Mac M-15 #380 Beaverton , Or. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 14 Jul 1999 20:09:01 EDT The usual catalogs have a devise called a tiller tamer. It's about $20 and works quite well. I've used one going to Catalina from Long Beach so I could make lunch but I quit using it when I found a good used Navico autopilot for $150. You get what you pay for. There's no comparison. Sandy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: Shipkiller Date: 14 Jul 1999 21:37:17 EDT Does anyone remember a few months ago someone spoke about book called Shipkiller, and I mentioned that I had a copy and it was a good book? Well, when I went to ebay for the first time ever to look at the pictures of the 15 that was listed, somehow,???? I managed to go to the book section, and I found up for sale a Hard bound copy of the book (mine are paperback), so I started budding. I just got a message from the seller that the book I bought is on its way...Now anyone who really want to read the book, can BORROW my paperback and enjoy some good reading.......Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: M_Boats: RE: M17 vs. Seaward Fox Date: 14 Jul 1999 20:30:09 -0400 Matt, Check the list archives at http://www.mission.com/~kdiehl and look for "Fox". Back in April there was some discussion of the relative advantages of each. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 14 Jul 1999 20:43:48 PDT Mac, Take a peek at tiller tamers. I have one on my Catalina, but have not put one on the Montgomery yet. They work just fine. Steve >Has anyone attached bungi cords to their tiller to keep it straight or pull >it straight if you take your hand off it to adjust something else. I have >been thinking of setting up something so when single handing I can let go of >the tiller for a fue seconds. Maybe, put a couple of small cleats on both >sides of the boat just for that reason. >Mac M-15 #380 Beaverton , Or. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 14 Jul 1999 20:58:21 -0700 [ref: my note of today @ 1700] I have a Tiller Tamer on my P-15 and don't particularly care for it. For one thing, it lacks "elegance" in the sense that it is not the minimal effective solution to the problem. For another, I find it easier to flip (with one finger) the line out of the jam cleat than I find undoing the small handwheel on the Tiller Tamer. Yet another reason is the fact that I can make small course adjustments just by moving the tiller against the shock cord, which then returns the tiller to its original position. The Tiller Tamer doesn't do that - after a course correction you have to manually move the tiller back to the original position and re-lock it there. Again, none of the tiller holders are as good as an autopilot - but they do serve a purpose. -- dwf -----Original Message----- >Mac, > >Take a peek at tiller tamers. I have one on my Catalina, but have not put >one on the Montgomery yet. They work just fine. > >Steve =====>snip<===== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 14 Jul 1999 23:15:55 -0700 > =====>snip<===== There is a tiller mounted cam operated clamp made in Iowa of all places that I use on my M 23, it clamps down on the line running thru the turning blocks for my Navik vane. When the paddle is parked (up) it gives you time to grab a drink without rounding up or falling off, of course it works best on a beat. Dick, Sadhana ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stanley Townsend Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 15 Jul 1999 06:46:08 -0700 I love my Davis Instruments Tiller Tamer. The knob that locks down on the cord between the cleats can be adjusted to hold the tiller in whatever position I place it in, yet not so tight that I can't move to another position without adjusting the knob. Between the tiller tamer and shifting my body weight fore and aft a little, I sometimes go for long periods with "no-hands" sailing. The bungie solutions described sound interesting, but I'm happy with what I've got. -- townsend@pacific.net (Stanley Townsend - M15 #478 "Freya") "Mclain, Mac" wrote: > Has anyone attached bungi cords to their tiller to keep it straight or pull > it straight if you take your hand off it to adjust something else. I have > been thinking of setting up something so when single handing I can let go of > the tiller for a fue seconds. Maybe, put a couple of small cleats on both > sides of the boat just for that reason. > Mac M-15 #380 Beaverton , Or. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Daly" Subject: M_Boats: M17 for sale Date: 15 Jul 1999 08:45:28 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0610_01BECE9E.63D7E340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apparently Colorado is too far for those of you looking for an M17. She = is still for sale. My wife says since I am not using her, she must go. She is excellent shape, manufactured in 1977, white with blue stripe and = with the following equipment: Trailer: 3 new tires and white spoke wheels new wiring and lights tongue extension guide boards Motor: Force 4hp - excellent shape Boat: 4 sails - 170 jib, working jib, storm jib, main - double = reefed new boom-vang new stainless steel folding boarding ladder - West = Marine all teak refinished with Cetol last summer custom interior finish with teak shelves excellent cushions all running gear in great shape new port-a-potty center board removed, sand blasted and epoxied last = summer tiller extension boat hook anchors . Price: $5,000 Location: Colorado Springs, CO. Phone: 719.475.9414 Jim Daly jedaly@math.uccs.edu ------=_NextPart_000_0610_01BECE9E.63D7E340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Apparently Colorado is too far for those of you looking for an = M17. =20 She is still for sale.  My wife says since I am not using her, she = must=20 go.

She is excellent shape, manufactured in 1977, white with blue = stripe=20 and with the following equipment:

Trailer:    3 = new tires=20 and white spoke=20 wheels
          &nb= sp;    =20 new wiring and=20 lights
          &nb= sp;    =20 tongue extension
           &n= bsp;   =20 guide boards

Motor:      Force 4hp - = excellent=20 shape

Boat:      4 sails - 170 jib, = working jib,=20 storm jib, main  -  double=20 reefed
          &nb= sp;    =20 new=20 boom-vang
          =      =20 new stainless steel folding boarding ladder - West=20 Marine
          &nb= sp;    =20 all teak refinished with Cetol last=20 summer
          &nb= sp;    =20 custom interior finish with teak=20 shelves
          &n= bsp;    =20 excellent=20 cushions
          &= nbsp;    =20 all running gear in great=20 shape
          &nbs= p;    =20 new=20 port-a-potty
         &nb= sp;     =20 center board removed, sand blasted and epoxied last summer
           &n= bsp;   =20 tiller extension
           &n= bsp;   =20 boat hook
           &n= bsp;   =20 anchors
           &n= bsp;   =20 .

Price:    = $5,000

Location:   =20 Colorado Springs, CO.

Phone:  =20 719.475.9414

        Jim=20 Daly
        jedaly@math.uccs.edu
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0610_01BECE9E.63D7E340-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17differences....... Date: 15 Jul 1999 11:05:14 EDT Jim Had an old 17 and was wondering if your boat has the famous combination keel, or the swing keel of the early 17's ? Mine had a swing keel with a worm gear to raise and lower...........not a bad arrangement, and the boat is still here in Arizona. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Daly" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17differences....... Date: 15 Jul 1999 10:41:49 -0600 No, mine has the combination keel - keel and centerboard. Centerboard raised with a winch and line. It works very well now. I went to Houston and picked mine up. A few barnicles in the centerboard slot and rust on the board caused the problem. Want another m17. JED -----Original Message----- >Jim > Had an old 17 and was wondering if your boat has the famous >combination keel, or the swing keel of the early 17's ? Mine had a swing >keel with a worm gear to raise and lower...........not a bad arrangement, and >the boat is still here in Arizona. > >Lenny > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Keel c/b maintainence Date: 15 Jul 1999 15:21:44 EDT In a message dated 7/15/99 09:40:52 US Mountain Standard Time, jedaly@math.uccs.edu writes: << A few barnicles in the centerboard slot and rust on the board caused the problem. >> Him Hehe........I know all about that..........spent more than an hour under water scraping the board on my 23........I was really surprised at the close tolerance between the board and the trunk........truly well built vessels. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 15 Jul 1999 16:05:21 EDT In a message dated 7/14/99 23:16:11 US Mountain Standard Time, rqlhgl@olypen.com writes: << When the paddle is parked (up) it gives you time to grab a drink without rounding up or falling off, of course it works best on a beat. Dick, Sadhana >> Oh, Dick,,,,,,,,,,you have all the toys,,,,,........hehe Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 15 Jul 1999 16:33:09 EDT In a message dated 7/14/99 20:44:31 US Mountain Standard Time, sparsons@canby.com writes: << >Has anyone attached bungi cords to their tiller to keep it straight or pull >it straight if you take your hand off it to adjust something else. >> Mac There was an interesting article in on of my magazines a while back about making a "poorman's autopilot"......it consisted of a couple turning blocks on the rail with a line run from the boom end through the blocks to a cleat on the tiller........a bungee is attached from the weather rail to the tiller for tension once the mainsheet is set.........it's really quite a cute idea............ Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: Message from Internet Date: 15 Jul 1999 20:05:06 -0400 Hi Matt... I've read Frugal Yachting as well. Isn't the Siren 17 lighter then the M-17?? There was one advertised in the Atlanta paper when I was looking to buy...but could never get in touch with the owner...only his wife, who seemed reluctant to show the boat without her husband. Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mclain, Mac" Subject: M_Boats: Oar Questions Date: 15 Jul 1999 17:22:22 -0700 Don,=20 I put a set of our temporarily oar lock on my M-15. They have a groove = on the bottom to fit over the wood molding and sit on the little lip = inside the molding too. Two C-clamps like aluminum blocks hold each side down and = in place. So by loosing two =BC-20 screws I can slide the assembly to = figure out where to finally place the permanent oar locks. I have a piece of = plywood across the seats and a 3" foam seat on top. There is a need for a foot = block to rest your heals against when rowing. Any way, My question is what = sort of oar locks are installed on your boat, and how did they install them. = Did the add backing under the gunnels because it seems a weak spot. What length = are your oars , mine are 9 =BD' and the lower 18" comes off so they store = easily inside the boat. Any more information on this subject would be great. I = have a 2.2 hp. OB but its a 2 cycle and is noisy and pollutes and I don't = plan on getting a Honda for a couple of years. I also have a kayaker mentality = and see no reason to use the OB except for a backup. Mac M-15 #380 Beaverton, Or. The boat came with a set of oars, but were in pretty bad shape. The = blades were delaminating and almost all the varnish was gone. I'm in the = process of trying to rescue them; epoxy and clamps solved the delamination = problem and I am filling some other minor cracking with epoxy. One more = sanding and they will be ready to varnish. Just checked, they are six footers. Looking forward to getting it in the water soon. There are some places close by to small for the 15' that should be about right for the little = one. Thanks, Again, Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: M7.11 Questions Date: 15 Jul 1999 22:16:08 -0400 John wrote >Does anyone know anything about a Victoria 18? < Not personally but there are a couple of web pages on th boat including its design history. there may even be an active mail list. The postings= all seemed indicate good quality construction and good sailing characteristcs. I believe I came accross the web page via links on the trailer sailer. Doug "Seas the Day" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: M_Boats: Oar locks for M-15 Date: 15 Jul 1999 22:16:11 -0400 Don wrote: >What length are your oars , mine are 9 =BD' and the lower 18" comes off so they store eas= ily inside the boat. Any more information on this subject would be great. < I made single clamp- on oar lock for the transom and cut up a pair of aluminum oars to make a single 11 ft that I intend to use to skull the M1= 5. The first attempt left a lot to be desired. The technique isn't as easy= as I thought. Doug "Seas the Day" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 15 Jul 1999 22:16:12 -0400 Message text written by INTERNET:montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Mac M-15 #380 Beaverton , Or.< I mounted a pair cleats for this purpose and the centered bungee cord doe= s work very well and is easiy to adjust. I mounted the cleats for a sheet = to tiller self steering arrangement per John Leather's book. With the sheet= to tiller steering the M15 will beat to windward quite well. It takes a= lot of fussing about to get it set up and unless I am going a long way I never use it. I have recently been using the bungee cord on only one side and long line through a block on the othe and use the single line for remote steering. This lets me stretch my legs an stand up in the cabin while I = am still in control of the boat. I can move my weight around an still have control. = Doug "Seas the Day" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery video Date: 15 Jul 1999 22:16:14 -0400 Would anyone be interested in having a copy of the 2hrs + video(amature quality, little narrative) of the1999 Chesapeak Bay Rondevouz? Lots of M= 15 and M17 scenes but no M23. I may be willing to make a few copies. You send a self addressed stamped video box ( weigh the box with a video to determine postage) and some indetermanent time later (maybe the dead of winter) you will get a copy. I could make one copy and you all could randomly pass it around. = You could even add your own video segement of your Montgomery as it is passed around. Any other ideas PS: Todd and Bill, your copies will be in the mail next week. = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 15 Jul 1999 21:18:21 -0700 AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/14/99 20:44:31 US Mountain Standard Time, > sparsons@canby.com writes: > > << > >Has anyone attached bungi cords to their tiller to keep it straight or pull > >it straight if you take your hand off it to adjust something else. >> > > Mac > There was an interesting article in on of my magazines a while back > about making a "poorman's autopilot"......it consisted of a couple turning > blocks on the rail with a line run from the boom end through the blocks to a > cleat on the tiller........a bungee is attached from the weather rail to the > tiller for tension once the mainsheet is set.........it's really quite a cute > idea............ > > Lenny Back in California I have a very good book by John ? on self steering techniques (sheet to tiller etc etc). He also wrote several good articles on "eyeball" navigation methods in CW. There is also a Dutch book on self steering. Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 15 Jul 1999 22:03:48 -0700 The book in question is "Self-Steering for Sailing Craft" by John S. Letcher. It can be found on the used market for $15 or so. There are also other books on self-steering, both windvane and sheet-to-tiller rigs -- dwf -----Original Message----- >AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 7/14/99 20:44:31 US Mountain Standard Time, >> sparsons@canby.com writes: >> >> << >> >Has anyone attached bungi cords to their tiller to keep it straight or pull >> >it straight if you take your hand off it to adjust something else. >> >> >> Mac >> There was an interesting article in on of my magazines a while back >> about making a "poorman's autopilot"......it consisted of a couple turning >> blocks on the rail with a line run from the boom end through the blocks to a >> cleat on the tiller........a bungee is attached from the weather rail to the >> tiller for tension once the mainsheet is set.........it's really quite a cute >> idea............ >> >> Lenny >Back in California I have a very good book by John ? on self steering >techniques (sheet to tiller etc etc). He also wrote several good >articles on "eyeball" navigation methods in CW. There is also a Dutch >book on self steering. >Dick > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sheet to tiller steering Date: 14 Jul 1999 02:56:27 -0500 In case anyone is interested, Lin and Larry Pardey's new book, "Cost Consious Cruiser" has a paragraph of text describing John Letcher's system along with a page of his diagrams. Of course there'd be a lot more info in Letcher's book, but this seemed to describe the system really well, and I'd highly recommend the rest of the book too. A lot of the information is geared to live-aboard, full time cruisers, but there was also information that could apply to weekend cruising, and it was all interesting and informative. Cost Conscious Cruiser : Champagne Cruising on a Beer Budget, by Lin and Larry Pardey. Published by Pardey Books, distributed by Paradise Cay Publishing. Copyright 1999, ISBN 0-9646036-5-9. $29.95 Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: M_Boats: Pepin get-together Date: 14 Jul 1999 02:57:25 -0500 By the way, if anyone is interested in the Montgomery get-together this weekend at Lake Pepin - I spoke with Pat Comer, the contact person, and he gave me the following information: The meeting place is Dan's Pepin Marina in Pepin, Wisconsin. There is no set meeting time. Pat and his friends will be camping at the marina starting Friday night. The phone number at Dan's Marina is (715) 442-4900. I'm going to stop down Saturday morning to hopefully meet some fellow M-owners and look at some M-boats. If anyone is looking for crew, I'd be very interested in sailing. Fair winds, Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bownez@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 15 Jul 1999 22:21:25 -0500 Hi Harvey, Say, could I have that M23 info faxed to me as well? Sure would appreciate it. My Fax is: 612-721-5024 Thankee, thankee. Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy_Watkins@odp.tamu.edu Subject: Re: M_Boats: Pepin get-together Date: 16 Jul 1999 08:22:04 CST hey fellow sailors sounds like fun, hope we can have a similiar get together here in Texas in the future. Regards, Randy Watkins ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com at #Internet By the way, if anyone is interested in the Montgomery get-together this weekend at Lake Pepin - I spoke with Pat Comer, the contact person, and he gave me the following information: The meeting place is Dan's Pepin Marina in Pepin, Wisconsin. There is no set meeting time. Pat and his friends will be camping at the marina starting Friday night. The phone number at Dan's Marina is (715) 442-4900. I'm going to stop down Saturday morning to hopefully meet some fellow M-owners and look at some M-boats. If anyone is looking for crew, I'd be very interested in sailing. Fair winds, Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mattwell@us.ibm.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Message from Internet Date: 16 Jul 1999 09:52:26 -0400 Yup. The Siren 17 is lighter than the M-17. A good resource pointed out to me by Steve Hatch (thanks Steve) is: http://www.sailnet.com/boatcheck Seems like the Siren might me a little uncomfortable to sit in both in the cockpit and in the cabin. Still it might be a good way to get in the water _now_ since between price and availablity getting a M-17 is a real challenge. We had a company cruise last night on lake Champlain and my wife and I got to see the lake from the water for the first time. Absolutely beautiful, getting out there ASAP is a must do. Matt -- Hi Matt... I've read Frugal Yachting as well. Isn't the Siren 17 lighter then the M-17?? There was one advertised in the Atlanta paper when I was looking to buy...but could never get in touch with the owner...only his wife, who seemed reluctant to show the boat without her husband. Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy_Watkins@odp.tamu.edu Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery video Date: 16 Jul 1999 09:21:16 CST howdy, great idea, I'd like to get one, would you email your address and amt. $ for expenses and I'll send you a check. thanks Randy_Watkins@odp.tamu.edu ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com at #Internet Would anyone be interested in having a copy of the 2hrs + video(amature quality, little narrative) of the1999 Chesapeak Bay Rondevouz? Lots of M= 15 and M17 scenes but no M23. I may be willing to make a few copies. You send a self addressed stamped video box ( weigh the box with a video to determine postage) and some indetermanent time later (maybe the dead of winter) you will get a copy. I could make one copy and you all could randomly pass it around. = You could even add your own video segement of your Montgomery as it is passed around. Any other ideas PS: Todd and Bill, your copies will be in the mail next week. = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dan Diehlman" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords Date: 16 Jul 1999 08:34:04 -0700 See also: "Self-Steering for Sailboats" by Gerard Dijkstra. Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: macinkos@micronet.net (Seth Macinko) Subject: M_Boats: M-15 in Seattle (?) for sale Date: 17 Jul 1999 07:32:04 -0800 M-listers, I may be shipping my for sale M-15 to Seattle soon. Anyone in the Pac. NW interested in a M-15, please contact me via direct e-mail (i.e., off-list). Seth M-15 #200 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sheet to tiller steering Date: 17 Jul 1999 14:40:42 -0400 Hi gang, I tried the sheet to tiller steering methods in Letcher's book on our 29' Tripp-Lentsch, years ago. As long as the wind is blowing, it works fine. It requires some playing with the size of the bungee cords (I used surgical tubing, available from a medical supply house) to properly balance the pulls between your sheet and the surgical tubing. I have set up my system departing Watch Hill, RI; tweaked it until it would hold the desired course, and then let the sheet to tiller system sail the boat all the way to Block Island, which was about 22 NM away. The disadvantage of these systems are that they only work when the wind is blowing and you can sail. So, since we had many a foggy day with no wind, or a flat calm heading home from Block Island, I finally got an electric autopilot. That worked in flat calms and when sailing. Connie M-15 #400 LEPPO Glastonbury, CT ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats:locker room Date: 17 Jul 1999 15:55:14 -0400 Fran, The job is done, and I feel it is a vast improvement, because I can now access all that space that previously was inaccessible, and put it to use. However, this is not a job the the faint hearted, nor for the person lacking in woodworking and fiberglassing skills. You need tools: I used a hand drill to drill holes the thickness of the saw blade in radiused corners to start the sabersaw cuts;you need a sabersaw; you need files, round, half round, and flat as well as a wood rasp (half round) to work on the fiberglass after the sail locker insert is removed, and you need wood working tools to make the supports (I made them of teak) that are then epoxied under the sail locker lip to act as a support for the insert when you put it back in place. What I did was draw guide lines down the middle of the inch wide surface that see when you open the sail locker lid. I didn't want square corners, so I carefully radiused them, using a piece of about 3/4 inch diameter tube as a template. Then, using a drill the width of the sabersaw blade (as thin a blade as possible), I drilled successive holes in the radiused corners, and far enough into the straight lines so that I could start the sabersaw cut. I cut the four straight cuts first. Then I cut opposite corners very carefully until the whole molded piece was free. Next I chamfered the edges of the sail locker opening (top and bottom - I don't like reaching in and having sharp edges attack me, and did the same with the piece that I had removed. Now you will find that the underside edges of the container will need work. The fiberglass was applied from that side, so you will find drips, runs, and fiberglass strands sticking out. Clean it all up. That's where you will find a good wood rasp a handy file for knocking off these drips and runs. I found some teak scraps in my scrap box, so used these to make the supports for the container. I put in four supports: two on the long sides (fore and aft) and two on the short sides. You will see that about 9 inch long pieces can be fitted in the middle as a lip support, and 6 inch long ones will do the job on the short sides. Mine extend about 1/2 inch, to form a lip which is enough to hold the container when it is dropped in place. Using teak pieces will allow you to make some small surface height adjustments when the wood is in place and you find that the container surface is at a slightly different height then the surrounding area. Then take a file and remove a bit here or there till it is all level. You are going to have to radius the back side of the pieces to fit the contour of the edge where you want them to live. You will also have to clean up the underside of the lip of the container so that the lip can rest on the support area - a lot of filing. I wanted flat surfaces to rest on the epoxied in support lips. As handles for the container, I drilled two holes in each end; threaded some dacron line through the holes; threaded the line through about a 5" long piece of plastic tubing (check the tube diameter to make sure that you can bury the knot inside the tube). I made a square knot and slid the knot into the middle of the tubing. Voila, a comfortable handle for lifting out the container, and it's adjustable if I find I want the handle longer or shorter after some actual sailing use. Then, after you're sure that all the pieces fit properly, mix up some epoxy (I used WEST with their gap filler) and glue your supports in place. You will need some small clamps to hold them in position till the epoxy cures. ....and don't clamp them tightly and squeeze out all the epoxy. The idea is to just hold it in position and let the epoxy cure. Now that you have access to the innards of the boat, you will also have to clean up the rough spots in the fiberglass of the hull. The styrofoam logs that were installed under the cockpit sole were too long - not a problem if the area is closed, but a problem now if you want to make maximum use of the space. So, out with the biggest kitchen knife I had and cut the styrofoam so that they fit end to end between the transom and the bulkhead. Next I discovered a bilge - with water in it - on the aft end of the keel, behind the centerboard slot. Cleaned that up. On my boat, #400, my port sail locker has bulkheads installed that are extensions of the side of the cockpit seat vertical surface. You can drop small things in there and they won't get lost forever, however, now on the starboard side, everything is open, and anything small will roll down into the bilge and disappear. My arm is just long enough to hold a sponge and get the water out of the bilge, but certainly not long enough to grope around on the bottom to find the lost screwdriver or bolt that I might have dropped. If you have two molded lockers in your boat, then I can imaging that you will find that that there are no interior bulkheads if you remove the containers. Then you will have to make some to close off at least one side of the boat, or forever be groping "down under" to lfind what disappeared. So, as I said in the beginning, I now have a lot more useable space for items like swimming ladders; the emergency paddle/boat hook; and my Bimini top; as starters, and I'm glad to have discovered the hidden bilge which was impossible to reach before removing the molded locker, but it takes a lot of work, know-how, and tools (I have a well equipped work shop). That's the story of the operation. The patient is resting comfortably. If you have any more questions just yell! Connie M-15 #400 LEPPO Glastonbury, CT ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Kath Crews" Subject: M_Boats: Greeting Date: 17 Jul 1999 14:30:41 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BED060.F29D8580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings, fellow Montgomery owners. My name is John Crews --Cap'n Crews = to most. I own a 1978 M17 named Allegretto. I live in Santa Maria, CA. = I've sailed my boat to the Santa Barbara Channel Islands, in San = Francisco Bay, out of most of the local seaside harbors, and in most of = the local lakes. In recent years, you will be saddened to hear, I have = done most of my sailing on a 27' Catalina moored at Port San Luis, CA. = It's hard to beat the convenience of having a boat in the water. And = besides, I have two other partners in the C27 who pay their dues and = never use the boat. What could be better than that? I keep the M17 for = lakes and distant harbors. In recent years, however, I've found that = renting a boat at Cass' Marina in Sausalito beats the hassle of hauling = my M17 up there on vacations. As a result, I would consider selling my = M17, but only at a good price. She has been well taken care of, and I = have no pressure to part with her. My personal homepage is at = http://www.thegrid.net/amicus/. See you there. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BED060.F29D8580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings, fellow Montgomery owners. My name is John = Crews=20 --Cap'n Crews to most. I own a 1978 M17 named Allegretto. I live in = Santa Maria,=20 CA. I've sailed my boat to the Santa Barbara Channel Islands, in San = Francisco=20 Bay, out of most of the local seaside harbors, and in most of the local = lakes.=20 In recent years, you will be saddened to hear, I have done most of my = sailing on=20 a 27' Catalina moored at Port San Luis, CA. It's hard to beat the = convenience of=20 having a boat in the water. And besides, I have two other partners in = the C27=20 who pay their dues and never use the boat. What could be better than = that? I=20 keep the M17 for lakes and distant harbors. In recent years, however, = I've found=20 that renting a boat at Cass' Marina in Sausalito beats the hassle of = hauling my=20 M17 up there on vacations. As a result, I would consider selling my M17, = but=20 only at a good price. She has been well taken care of, and I have no = pressure to=20 part with her. My personal homepage is at http://www.thegrid.net/amicus/. See=20 you there.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BED060.F29D8580-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Rafferty" Subject: M_Boats: Report on "Hess Fest 99" Date: 17 Jul 1999 17:43:53 PDT Hello M_boaters, I just returned from Long Beach for the rendezvous of Lyle Hess boats. There were some very beautiful boats including: 7BCC's, 5Norsea 27's, 1Foulmouth(?)Cutter, and only 1 Montgomery. It was a 17 owned by a couple who also owned a NS27. Interestingly, they lived aboard on their M17 for 6mo in Florida. There was also a 40+' flushdecked ketch down from the Pacific northwest. No one knew about a burgee, and neither Lyle nor his daughter were there before or while I was. A scrap book was assembled for Lyle and I contributed about 7 pictures of my boat and a review from Cruising world. There was a very flattering letter to Lyle From W.B. Crealock for this tribute. I bumped into Bob Eeg who was a bit upset with me for not sailing up, as he wanted to inspect my boat. I had a Dr. Appt. on Friday and could not figure out the logistics of being two places at once(2, 3, 4...when you're not anywhere at all). Anyway, Bob and I discussed his plans for putting the 23 back into production. His plans now are to modify the deck/trunk cabin of a NS27 to fit the 23 hull. Cost you may ask???? Sit down... OK Between $50-$60K. He did not mention if this included a trailer. Boy am I glad I did not sell my M_23 yet, and he is most surprised that mine did not sell this season...I will wait 'till next year and double my asking price. I have about 1-2 weeks before I make my annual 3 week cruise to Catalina (people do not get into teaching for the money, only the sailing time). Take care, Raff M23 #26 Summer Solstice _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KGRwheeler@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: M17 centerboard stuck Date: 17 Jul 1999 20:53:56 EDT Looks like my M17 centerboard is stuck in the trunk. Mine is the production model with a keel trunk and steel centerboard lowered by a line (not the screw model). Looking through the archieves I see that this problem is not uncommon. As near as I can see it looks like the problem is the keel trunk not the centerboard. Does anyone know what the cross section of the keel trunk is? Is it fiberglass filled with lead (or steel) or is the trunk all steel. Mine is perforated along the bottom of the opening and I am not sure how to repair it. Also, has anyone successfully stopped rust on the centerboard? I appreciate any help. Ken Wheeler ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 centerboard stuck Date: 17 Jul 1999 20:07:38 -0700 KGRwheeler@aol.com wrote: > > Looks like my M17 centerboard is stuck in the trunk. Mine is the production > model with a keel trunk and steel centerboard lowered by a line (not the > screw model). Looking through the archieves I see that this problem is not > uncommon. As near as I can see it looks like the problem is the keel trunk > not the centerboard. The iron drop board is the usual culprit, sandblast and epoxy fair. Dick, M 23 Sadhana ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Rafferty" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 centerboard stuck Date: 17 Jul 1999 21:22:24 PDT Ken, Although I have a 23, I believe the problems are similar. The keel is steel. If you can possibly get a C-clamp on the distal end of the blade, stick a long 2x4 through the C and use it as a lever to force it down. I had success with this method. Once down, grind the blade down, then coat with 2 coats of 2part epoxy. While it's down, stick a sharpened-edge shim back up into the box and scrape off any corals or other growth. Paint the blade with 2 coats of bottom paint and let dry for 24 hours. The last thing I did was to slather the blade with moly grease...It worked for me... Good luck, Raff M23 #26 Summer Solstice >From: KGRwheeler@aol.com >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: M_Boats: M17 centerboard stuck >Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:53:56 EDT > >Looks like my M17 centerboard is stuck in the trunk. Mine is the >production >model with a keel trunk and steel centerboard lowered by a line (not the >screw model). Looking through the archieves I see that this problem is not >uncommon. As near as I can see it looks like the problem is the keel trunk >not the centerboard. Does anyone know what the cross section of the keel >trunk is? Is it fiberglass filled with lead (or steel) or is the trunk all >steel. Mine is perforated along the bottom of the opening and I am not >sure >how to repair it. Also, has anyone successfully stopped rust on the >centerboard? I appreciate any help. >Ken Wheeler > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats:locker room Date: 18 Jul 1999 11:02:58 EDT In a message dated 7/17/99 1:04:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, chbenneck@juno.com writes: << The job is done, and I feel it is a vast improvement, because I can now access all that space that previously was inaccessible, and put it to use. >> Connie You know what they say..........." you don't really own a boat, until you take a sawsall to it".........hehe. Copngrats on a job well done. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Report on "Hess Fest 99" Date: 18 Jul 1999 11:10:26 EDT In a message dated 7/17/99 5:44:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, mrafferty@hotmail.com writes: << His plans now are to modify the deck/trunk cabin of a NS27 to fit the 23 hull. Cost you may ask???? Sit down... OK Between $50-$60K. He did not mention if this included a trailer. >> Hey Mike Is it any wonder we L-u-v-v-v our 23's??????? Hehe. Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse Phx, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 centerboard stuck Date: 18 Jul 1999 11:15:08 EDT In a message dated 7/17/99 5:56:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time, KGRwheeler@aol.com writes: << Does anyone know what the cross section of the keel trunk is? Is it fiberglass filled with lead (or steel) or is the trunk all steel. >> Also, has anyone successfully stopped rust on the centerboard? Ken Jerry M or Bob Eeg could answer that best...........as for the rust on the board, if you can figure that out,,,,,,, it's better than hitting the lottery.......hehe. Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse Phx, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery video Date: 18 Jul 1999 20:20:09 EDT Doug, I'd like to have a copy. What address should I send the video mailer to? John M17 #372 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats:locker room Date: 19 Jul 1999 09:21:21 -0400 Lenny, Thanks for your congratulations. You should see the improvement that that modification makes. Accessability to areas you could only dimly see with a flashlight. Now it's all usable storage area. It also gives allows you to check the hidden bilge for water (so that's where the smell comes from!). However, it's a job that requires know-how, and tools. Having built a few boats in the past, Bolger Car Topper, and Nymph dinghy, plus a 25' cutter out of an old Liberty ship lifeboat, as well as all the changes and modifications I made in 26 years of ownership of our Tripp-Lentsch, I have the know-how and the tools, as well as a nice workshop. I just don't want M-15 owners to think that they can do the job with a dull kitchen knife and the screwdriver from a Singer sewing machine. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re:Let me in there !!! Date: 19 Jul 1999 09:53:00 EDT In a message dated 7/19/99 6:37:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time, chbenneck@juno.com writes: << I just don't want M-15 owners to think that they can do the job with a dull kitchen knife and the screwdriver from a Singer sewing machine. >> Connie Like most things, knowledge, skill ,and TOOLS.......I'm cutting a hatch in the cockpit sole of my 23 to gain better access. I have a 13x23 on order from WM........ Largest I could find..........I'd really like a 20x30 but havent been able to find anything that large.....oh, well........it's not a done deal yet.........hehe. Fair winds......... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Let me in there !!! Date: 19 Jul 1999 07:26:34 -0700 Lenny: try Minney's, either by phone or email. Their web site with that info and more is at http://www.minneysyachtsurplus.com/ Look under "BOAT GEAR" at the bottom of the page for some hatches they have (too small for you). They have (literally) tons of stuff and I'm told are pretty easy to work with. Give them a call - might not help, but can't hurt. -- dwf (usual disclaimer - I'm in no way connected with Minney's) -----Original Message----- >In a message dated 7/19/99 6:37:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >chbenneck@juno.com writes: > ><< > I just don't want M-15 owners to think that they can do the job with a > dull kitchen knife and the screwdriver from a Singer sewing machine. > >> >Connie > Like most things, knowledge, skill ,and TOOLS.......I'm cutting a >hatch in the cockpit sole of my 23 to gain better access. I have a 13x23 on >order from WM........ Largest I could find..........I'd really like a 20x30 >but havent been able to find anything that large.....oh, well........it's not >a done deal yet.........hehe. > >Fair winds......... > >Lenny > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Let me in there !!! Date: 19 Jul 1999 10:34:51 EDT In a message dated 7/19/99 7:25:55 AM US Mountain Standard Time, dfarrell@ridgecrest.ca.us writes: << Lenny: try Minney's, either by phone or email. Their web site with that info and more is at >> Dennis Thanks.........I'll get on it..........(btw, I'm in no way associated with West Marine, either....hehe.) Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 Any Good? Date: 19 Jul 1999 10:12:04 -0500 Hi everyone! New subscriber. I don't actually own a sailboat yet, but I've been researching and looking for a few weeks. I've been looking quite seriously at the Potter 15's, but haven't been able to find any used ones within a reasonable distance as inexpensively as I'd like. Over the weekend, I came across a 1988 Montgomery 15 for $2,500 within a few hours drive. Intuitively this seems like a good deal if the boat's in good shape. It includes a Mercury 2.2 outboard and all the equipment (i.e. anchors, etc.) The M-15 looks very close to the potter in terms of size and calculated performance characteristics, but so far I haven't been able to get any opinions from anyone experienced with the boat. I'd like to get some thoughts from the group. Features? Performance? Construction? Things to look for during my inspection? How would you compare the M-15's to the Potter 15's? I'm planning to go take a look at the boat tonight. Regards, Eric P.S. I thought the subject would get some attention on this list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy_Watkins@odp.tamu.edu Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 Any Good? Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:08:37 CST Eric hope this helps: My first boat was a P15, It was a fun boat, easy to rig, launch and sail. I thoroughly enjoyed it. My current boat an M15 is a much more rugged boat, larger cockpit, superior construction ( bolted deck, s/s used, lead ballast ) and sails a lot faster. The M15 does have a 15" draft where the P15 has I think 6" for beaching purposes. I honestly wouldn't mind owning a 2nd boat like a P15 but if only one then I'd choose a M15. Have fun on your decision. Randy W ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com at #Internet Hi everyone! New subscriber. I don't actually own a sailboat yet, but I've been researching and looking for a few weeks. I've been looking quite seriously at the Potter 15's, but haven't been able to find any used ones within a reasonable distance as inexpensively as I'd like. Over the weekend, I came across a 1988 Montgomery 15 for $2,500 within a few hours drive. Intuitively this seems like a good deal if the boat's in good shape. It includes a Mercury 2.2 outboard and all the equipment (i.e. anchors, etc.) The M-15 looks very close to the potter in terms of size and calculated performance characteristics, but so far I haven't been able to get any opinions from anyone experienced with the boat. I'd like to get some thoughts from the group. Features? Performance? Construction? Things to look for during my inspection? How would you compare the M-15's to the Potter 15's? I'm planning to go take a look at the boat tonight. Regards, Eric P.S. I thought the subject would get some attention on this list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 Any Good? Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:15:46 -0500 Thanks for your insights. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 12:09 PM Eric hope this helps: My first boat was a P15, It was a fun boat, easy to rig, launch and sail. I thoroughly enjoyed it. My current boat an M15 is a much more rugged boat, larger cockpit, superior construction ( bolted deck, s/s used, lead ballast ) and sails a lot faster. The M15 does have a 15" draft where the P15 has I think 6" for beaching purposes. I honestly wouldn't mind owning a 2nd boat like a P15 but if only one then I'd choose a M15. Have fun on your decision. Randy W ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com at #Internet Hi everyone! New subscriber. I don't actually own a sailboat yet, but I've been researching and looking for a few weeks. I've been looking quite seriously at the Potter 15's, but haven't been able to find any used ones within a reasonable distance as inexpensively as I'd like. Over the weekend, I came across a 1988 Montgomery 15 for $2,500 within a few hours drive. Intuitively this seems like a good deal if the boat's in good shape. It includes a Mercury 2.2 outboard and all the equipment (i.e. anchors, etc.) The M-15 looks very close to the potter in terms of size and calculated performance characteristics, but so far I haven't been able to get any opinions from anyone experienced with the boat. I'd like to get some thoughts from the group. Features? Performance? Construction? Things to look for during my inspection? How would you compare the M-15's to the Potter 15's? I'm planning to go take a look at the boat tonight. Regards, Eric P.S. I thought the subject would get some attention on this list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 Any Good? Date: 19 Jul 1999 20:17:43 EDT forget the potter...jump on the monty...do not waste time...do it now[or sooner} ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 Any Good? Date: 19 Jul 1999 20:41:17 -0400 Eric, Gof for it! The M-15 is the way to go, and the price sounds very reasonable. Connie M-15 #400 LEPPO Glastonbury, CT ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 Any Good? Date: 19 Jul 1999 21:04:29 -0400 Eric, You won't get an unbiased opinion from anyone in this group. Each of us has their own good honest reasons for our opinions, of course, but if we thought the Potters were better boats, we'd have Potters and subscribe to their list. Check the archives for all the reasons why and lots of other good information on sailing in general and Montgomery boats in particular. Potters are more plentiful and generally more available - consider it serendipity that you found an M-15 first. Hope you got a good deal. Unless the boat has big problems, the price is right. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: M_Boats: Thoughts on used Mont 15 Date: 19 Jul 1999 22:03:24 -0500 Looked at a used Mont 15 (1988, #15412?) this evening. The boat seemed sound overall. No loose fittings. No huge defects. Didn't see any cracked gel coat around stress points. Some wear and tear such as a few chips on the edge of the deck. The rudder assembly looks good. The bottom of the hull is painted black. Is this normal? I rubbed my finger across it and it came up black. I did not lower and raise the centerboard, however. Didn't think of this until I was on my way home. Can this be a problem? What is the centerboard made of? What would be involved in repairing the chips around the deck edge? Would it be worth repainting the bottom of the hull (how much?)? I guess I'm inclined to think it's a fair deal even though it wasn't in as good of condition as I had hoped. Anything I could be missing? Thanks to everyone for your comments on the Montgomery 15 in response to my ealier post. Regards, Eric ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 Any Good? Date: 19 Jul 1999 20:13:04 -0700 Cosens, Eric D wrote: > > Hi everyone! New subscriber. I don't actually own a sailboat yet, but I've > been researching and looking for a few weeks. > > I've been looking quite seriously at the Potter 15's, but haven't been able > to find any used ones within a reasonable distance as inexpensively as I'd > like. > > Over the weekend, I came across a 1988 Montgomery 15 for $2,500 within a few > hours drive. Intuitively this seems like a good deal if the boat's in good > shape. It includes a Mercury 2.2 outboard and all the equipment (i.e. > anchors, etc.) The M-15 looks very close to the potter in terms of size and > calculated performance characteristics, but so far I haven't been able to > get any opinions from anyone experienced with the boat. > > I'd like to get some thoughts from the group. Features? Performance? > Construction? Things to look for during my inspection? How would you > compare the M-15's to the Potter 15's? > > I'm planning to go take a look at the boat tonight. > Eric, Go for it! Sounds like a good deal for an '88 Monty with motor, etc. We've had a Potter `15- my husband said it sailed like a dog. It's cockpit is very tiny. We now have a M15; it's a way better boat all around. On inspection, look underneath the boat at the centerboard slot opening, inside the cabin for cracks or water damage. Most things can be fixed anyway. Our M15 is an '83 that was in a slip for the last 13 years; she's cleaned up beautifully now. A secure, but well-performing boat. Go get it!!! Fran M15#236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Thoughts on used Mont 15 Date: 19 Jul 1999 20:28:09 -0700 Cosens, Eric D wrote: > > Looked at a used Mont 15 (1988, #15412?) this evening. The boat seemed > sound overall. No loose fittings. No huge defects. Didn't see any cracked > gel coat around stress points. Some wear and tear such as a few chips on > the edge of the deck. The rudder assembly looks good. The bottom of the > hull is painted black. Is this normal? I rubbed my finger across it and it > came up black. I did not lower and raise the centerboard, however. Didn't > think of this until I was on my way home. Can this be a problem? What is > the centerboard made of? What would be involved in repairing the chips > around the deck edge? Would it be worth repainting the bottom of the hull > (how much?)? > > I guess I'm inclined to think it's a fair deal even though it wasn't in as > good of condition as I had hoped. > > Anything I could be missing? > > Thanks to everyone for your comments on the Montgomery 15 in response to my > ealier post. > > Regards, > Eric Eric, Centerboards are just fiberglass. Weight (steel or lead) is in the keel housing centerboard. Not a big problem to fix if it's a bit stuck. Look up into cb slot and inspect with flashlight. There's enough room on either side of cb in housing to stick something in there to clean or remove barnacles. Paint sounds like bottom paint; mine had dark blue paint - it can be removed or you can leave it alone. Depends on if you plan to slip the boat or trailer it. Chips can be repaired easily with various products. Check out BoatUS or West Marine. Sails in good shape? Where is boat located? Good luck, Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 19 Jul 1999 23:30:15 -0400 Hi Bones...Will get the fax off tomorrow about 9 AM-ish Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 PS...FWIW, there are two Seagulls for sale on E-Bay ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats:locker room Date: 19 Jul 1999 20:46:23 -0700 Connie, Whew! Sounds like a nice little project. Perhaps you can show pictures on this site. I've made wood furniture but have not worked in fiberglass. Someday I might attempt your project. Thanks for the blow by blow. Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Fell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery video Date: 17 Jul 1999 21:31:52 -0700 I would love a copy and would be happy to send you the necessary postage and cassett with cover. Let me know where to send them. Very appreciative, John Fell -----Original Message----- >Would anyone be interested in having a copy of the 2hrs + video(amature >quality, little narrative) of the1999 Chesapeak Bay Rondevouz? Lots of M15 >and M17 scenes but no M23. I may be willing to make a few copies. You >send a self addressed stamped video box ( weigh the box with a video to >determine postage) and some indetermanent time later (maybe the dead of >winter) you will get a copy. > > I could make one copy and you all could randomly pass it around. >You could even add your own video segement of your Montgomery as it is >passed around. > > > Any other ideas > >PS: Todd and Bill, your copies will be in the mail next week. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Thoughts on used Mont 15 Date: 19 Jul 1999 22:21:59 PDT Eric, It doesn't sound bad at all. I would also check any of the through deck/cabin top hardware to ensure that it was bedded properly, and that no rot has started in the balsa core. Other than that, I think it's a keeper. Steve >Looked at a used Mont 15 (1988, #15412?) this evening. The boat seemed >sound overall. No loose fittings. No huge defects. Didn't see any cracked >gel coat around stress points. Some wear and tear such as a few chips on >the edge of the deck. The rudder assembly looks good. The bottom of the >hull is painted black. Is this normal? I rubbed my finger across it and it >came up black. I did not lower and raise the centerboard, however. Didn't >think of this until I was on my way home. Can this be a problem? What is >the centerboard made of? What would be involved in repairing the chips >around the deck edge? Would it be worth repainting the bottom of the hull >(how much?)? > >I guess I'm inclined to think it's a fair deal even though it wasn't in as >good of condition as I had hoped. > >Anything I could be missing? > >Thanks to everyone for your comments on the Montgomery 15 in response to my >ealier post. > >Regards, >Eric > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZYacht@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 centerboard stuck Date: 20 Jul 1999 21:22:05 EDT Re: M-17 Stuck Centerboards. I think you may need to investigate which is the actual culprit, I found steel knock-outs in the keel area (sump) upon installing a thru-hull.(M-17 #319) If water is allowed into this area I have seen steel rust in enclosed sumps and literally 'blow' its way thru the fibreglas. I was dismayed to find steel in the keel, but am resolved to keep the area sealed and dry. If the steel gets wet and starts swelling (oxidizing) this could cause the sides of the CB trunk to swell and make the board bind. I dont know what if any differences there are in the ballast from model to model or H.I.N.? Obviously a boat with lead would not exhibit the problem. I think I would remove the board and check the CB trunk walls for square. Of course the board should be refurbished at the same time. Question, has anyone tried metal to metal filler used under powder coating to fair and powder coat an iron underwater piece?? Good Luck and better Sailing. Gary O. M-17 # 319 Aoxomoxoa ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Kath Crews" Subject: M_Boats: Bottom Paint Date: 20 Jul 1999 19:18:14 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01BED2E4.9D5DCFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Suppose a trailerable sailboat spends six consecutive weeks in the ocean = a year (i.e., a single outing), most of this time is spent sitting in a = slip, and the rest of the year on a trailer. The six weeks in the water = is long enough for some nasty marine growth to get started, which takes = considerable effort to remove. An antifoulant bottom paint could help. = However, I understand that standard copper-based antifoulant bottom = paints oxidize fairly rapidly when exposed to air and lose their biocide = function. A fresh bottom painting each year for a six week outing seems = cost prohibitive. What to do? Are there effective and economical = antifoulant bottom paints for trailerable boats? Thanks. John Crews M17 "Allegretto" Santa Maria, CA ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01BED2E4.9D5DCFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Suppose a trailerable sailboat spends six = consecutive weeks in=20 the ocean a year (i.e., a single outing), most of this time is = spent=20 sitting in a slip, and the rest of the year on a trailer. The six weeks = in the=20 water is long enough for some nasty marine growth to get started, which = takes=20 considerable effort to remove. An antifoulant bottom paint could help. = However,=20 I understand that standard copper-based antifoulant bottom paints = oxidize fairly=20 rapidly when exposed to air and lose their biocide function. A fresh = bottom=20 painting each year for a six week outing seems cost prohibitive. What to = do? Are=20 there effective and economical antifoulant bottom paints for trailerable = boats?=20 Thanks.
 
John Crews
M17 "Allegretto"
Santa Maria, CA
------=_NextPart_000_008D_01BED2E4.9D5DCFE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bottom Paint Date: 20 Jul 1999 21:31:22 -0700 > John Crews > M17 "Allegretto" > Santa Maria, CA I have used US Paint's AwlGold ablative bottom paint on Sadhana for years, it is ~ $190/gallon but does not oxidise so is as good when you return the boat to the water as when you hauled it. Two coats lasted more than 3 yrs. Dick M 23 Sadhana ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bottom Paint Date: 20 Jul 1999 22:11:36 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BED2FC.D561CAA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used the Interlux CSC ablataive antifouling paint on my trailerable = boat when I did a lot of sailing on San Francisco Bay and only had to = touch up the bottom paint every year or so. If you wait for the sales, = you can usually buy it for around $130 a gallon. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BED2FC.D561CAA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I used the Interlux CSC ablataive = antifouling=20 paint on my trailerable boat when I did a lot of sailing on San = Francisco Bay=20 and only had to touch up the bottom paint every year or so.  If you = wait=20 for the sales, you can usually buy it for around $130 a = gallon.
 
Joe Kidd  M-15 #207  "Poco A=20 Poco"
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BED2FC.D561CAA0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 centerboard stuck Date: 20 Jul 1999 23:53:16 -0700 Re: M-17 Stuck Centerboards. Powder coating is pretty tough stuff, it just might work. Just curious, why not just have the centerboard hot dipped galvanized. Any larger city would have someone with facilities to do this. It seems like an obvious solution that could have been done at manufacture so there must be a reason its not done. Perhaps cast iron is a different animal than steel for the process. Mike M17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan_Harstad@datacard.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bottom Paint Date: 21 Jul 1999 09:13:19 -0500 --0__=JmgoJPO1lp0ugy7zU5vhNXzKSyEL2AiO4qWZqzJ9Oibk7hZ9ag1FiIMy Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline I know of someone who is located in Oregon, who says the following works, In the fall, he covers his bottom paint with some kind of a wax finish, that prevents oxidation. What kind of wax? I don't know, Its not car wax, but I don't think that there is anything special about it. Bryan "Joe Kidd" on 07/21/99 12:11:36 AM Please respond to montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com cc: (bcc: Bryan Harstad/US/DataCard) I used the Interlux CSC ablataive antifouling paint on my trailerable boat when I did a lot of sailing on San Francisco Bay and only had to touch up the bottom paint every year or so. If you wait for the sales, you can usually buy it for around $130 a gallon. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" --0__=JmgoJPO1lp0ugy7zU5vhNXzKSyEL2AiO4qWZqzJ9Oibk7hZ9ag1FiIMy Content-type: text/html; name="att1.htm" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="att1.htm" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Content-Description: Internet HTML PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBXMyBIVE1MLy9FTiI+DQo8SFRNTD4N CjxIRUFEPg0KDQo8TUVUQSBjb250ZW50PXRleHQvaHRtbDtjaGFyc2V0PWlzby04ODU5LTEgaHR0 cC1lcXVpdj1Db250ZW50LVR5cGU+PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBI VE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9uYWwvL0VOIj4NCjxNRVRBIGNvbnRlbnQ9JyJNU0hUTUwgNC43Mi4z MTEwLjciJyBuYW1lPUdFTkVSQVRPUj4NCjxTVFlMRT48L1NUWUxFPg0KDQo8L0hFQUQ+DQo8Qk9E WSBiZ0NvbG9yPSNmZmZmZmY+DQo8RElWPjxGT05UIGNvbG9yPSMwMDAwMDAgc2l6ZT0yPkkgdXNl ZCB0aGUgSW50ZXJsdXggQ1NDIGFibGF0YWl2ZSBhbnRpZm91bGluZyANCnBhaW50IG9uIG15IHRy YWlsZXJhYmxlIGJvYXQgd2hlbiBJIGRpZCBhIGxvdCBvZiBzYWlsaW5nIG9uIFNhbiBGcmFuY2lz Y28gQmF5IA0KYW5kIG9ubHkgaGFkIHRvIHRvdWNoIHVwIHRoZSBib3R0b20gcGFpbnQgZXZlcnkg eWVhciBvciBzby4mbmJzcDsgSWYgeW91IHdhaXQgDQpmb3IgdGhlIHNhbGVzLCB5b3UgY2FuIHVz dWFsbHkgYnV5IGl0IGZvciBhcm91bmQgJDEzMCBhIGdhbGxvbi48L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+DQo8RElW PjxGT05UIGNvbG9yPSMwMDAwMDAgc2l6ZT0yPjwvRk9OVD4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEZP TlQgc2l6ZT0yPkpvZSBLaWRkJm5ic3A7IE0tMTUgIzIwNyZuYnNwOyAmcXVvdDtQb2NvIEEgDQpQ b2NvJnF1b3Q7PC9GT05UPjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= --0__=JmgoJPO1lp0ugy7zU5vhNXzKSyEL2AiO4qWZqzJ9Oibk7hZ9ag1FiIMy-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: slyingst@sonic.net (Stephen & Christina) Date: 21 Jul 1999 14:41:07 +0100 unsubscribe montgomery_boats ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Nesbitts" Subject: M_Boats: Rudder Modification Date: 21 Jul 1999 18:04:51 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BED3A3.877D0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am interested in a rudder modification that would transform my = standard rudder to a swing-up type. I am new to your group and have = enjoyed reading the archives on various subjects. I own a 1977 M-17, = Hull number 266. It was a boat purchased at Hooper's 3 years ago and = was in need of repair. It had not been used in many years while it sat = idle in a Lake Waconia boat yard. I raised the mast and hoisted the = mainsail for the first time yesterday and it was a great thrill. My = problem now is the water is thin on the lake we use and I need to obtain = a swing rudder or modify mine. Is there anybody close to Minnesota = with a swing-up rudder for me to see? =20 Bob Nesbitt Burnsville, MN "Pretty Tacky II" ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BED3A3.877D0500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am interested in a rudder modification that would = transform=20 my standard rudder to a swing-up type.  I am new to your group and = have=20 enjoyed reading the archives on various subjects.  I own a 1977 = M-17, Hull=20 number 266.  It was a boat purchased at Hooper's 3 years ago and = was in=20 need of repair.  It had not been used in many years while it sat = idle in a=20 Lake Waconia boat yard.  I raised the mast and hoisted the mainsail = for the=20 first time yesterday and it was a great thrill.  My problem now is = the=20 water is thin on the lake we use and I need to obtain a swing rudder = or =20 modify mine.  Is there anybody close to Minnesota with a swing-up = rudder=20 for me to see?
 
Bob Nesbitt
Burnsville, MN
"Pretty Tacky = II"
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BED3A3.877D0500-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Modification Date: 21 Jul 1999 18:18:36 -0500 Bob, Reading your post reminded me that I hadn't gotten back to you about my rudder. I have the original rudder which was modified by the previous owner (a metal fabricator) to swing up. I had one other person possibly interested in a trade (before I'd posted to the list), so I'd better check with him first, but otherwise I'm quite open to the idea of trading. I do get to the Cities occasionally. If anyone else is interested, maybe I could take a picture, scan it, and send it to Keith to post at his site... Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Nesbitts" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Modification Date: 21 Jul 1999 18:26:25 -0500 Rachel, I'm very interested in a trade. We go to the Minnesota North Shore frequently. Let me know what you find out. Bob -----Original Message----- >Bob, > >Reading your post reminded me that I hadn't gotten back to you about my >rudder. I have the original rudder which was modified by the previous >owner (a metal fabricator) to swing up. I had one other person possibly >interested in a trade (before I'd posted to the list), so I'd better >check with him first, but otherwise I'm quite open to the idea of >trading. I do get to the Cities occasionally. > >If anyone else is interested, maybe I could take a picture, scan it, and >send it to Keith to post at his site... Rachel > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: M_Boats: bottom paint and boot stripe Date: 21 Jul 1999 18:34:59 -0500 Dear M-boaters, I'm still working at getting my "new" M-17 ready for launching. I was going to go easy on myself and hire the bottom sanding/barrier coating/painting done. Well, I made arrangements in early June for the earliest opening which was July 1. Now it's the 21st, and I'm still getting the "call me next week" line from the boat shop, so I'm thinking I may have to do it myself :-( The boat has just one coat of bottom paint now, which is already coming off in many places. The hull looks relatively shiny underneath, so I'm thinking that whoever painted it the first time didn't do a very good prep job - maybe it'll make it easier for me to remove the paint. Here are some methods I'm considering - has anyone had any experiences, either good or bad, with the following methods? -sanding with orbital sander - (100 grit paper?) -using some kind of soft-bristled wheel on a drill -one of the peel strippers advertised in the catalogs -any type of scraper I had thought about sandblasting, but was advised that it could potentially open up voids behind the gel-coat, if there are any. Also, I'd like to put on several coats of the interlux barrier epoxy. Judging by the scum lines, it would be wise to go right to the top of the boot stripe, so here's the second part of my question: How will I know where to re-paint the boot stripe? It doesn't stick out beyond the rest of the boat, or have any other texture. Due to the lapstrakes, the stripe is rather complicated - not really straight at all, but kind of sawtoothed and wider in some places than others. I like the way it looks, and would like to paint it back on. Has anyone come up with some clever method to mark it for future reference? Thanks in advance, Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: bottom paint and boot stripe Date: 21 Jul 1999 17:55:19 -0700 Rachel, Re-doing the boat's bottom is no big deal. I've done it quite a few times. All it takes is some elbow grease and time. Be sure to wear some kind of mask over your mouth and nose while sanding. You don't want the anti-fouling dust to keep barnicles from attaching to the innards of your lungs. But!!!!! Forget that orbital sander. One slip and you go right through the bottom paint and also through the gel coat. Depending on the kind of bottom paint already on the boat, you might be able to simply clean it up and apply the new paint over it. (Check the paint can labels.) If possible, apply an epoxy barrier coat (which might be the shiney surface you described) before applying the anti-fouling bottom paint. Regarding the boot stripe, it is an eyeball thing. Sometimes you can see the outlines of the stripe through the new paint as a guidline for the masking tape. If you are going to sand everything down smooth, a water level is the only way to be sure where the line should go. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: bottom paint and boot stripe Date: 22 Jul 1999 10:56:15 -0500 >The hull looks relatively shiny underneath, so I'm >thinking that whoever painted it the first time didn't do a very good >prep job - maybe it'll make it easier for me to remove the paint. >Here are some methods I'm considering - has anyone had any experiences, >either good or bad, with the following methods? > -sanding with orbital sander - (100 grit paper?) > -using some kind of soft-bristled wheel on a drill > -one of the peel strippers advertised in the catalogs > -any type of scraper I refinished Dolphin's hull over the winter, based on information from various sources including Don Casey's book "This Old Boat", and here is what worked for me (for a boat that lives in the water)... I had multiple coats of an unknown bottom paint that was flaking off in large areas, so I wanted to get down to gel coat. The first step was to get as much off as possible using a four inch scraper. This varied from easy to %$#@! Impossible, depending on the condition of the paint that I was working on. The next stage was to use a quarter sheet orbital sander and 80 grit paper to get the remainder of the paint off. This also puts a nice "tooth" on the gel coat so that when I eventually started putting stuff back on the hull it would stick. I used a respirator while removing the paint (especially important while sanding) - and highly recommend one with a proper mask and separate cartridges, not one of those paper dust masks. (When I saw myself in the mirror after a day sanding, my first thought was "I'm REALLY glad that I'm wearing a respirator".) I noticed many people, including yard workers, using a large rotary sander (those things that look like an edge grinder with a sanding disc instead of a grinding wheel). They were working much faster, but I didn't care for the depth of the scratches they left - if (well, "when", I suppose) I do the job again I'll stick to the orbital sander. A belt sander is not a good idea - they're rather violent and they're designed to make things flat. For the first few square feet of the hull I used a chemical stripper called Peel Away. It worked as advertised, but the soft gooey stuff/paint mixture was such an unpleasant nuisance, and the clean up so nasty, that it made more work than it saved. I gave it to the guy on the next boat, and I think he passed it on after trying it. I also briefly tried one of those paint remover wheels on a drill, and found it to be slow, difficult and prone to damage the gel coat. >I had thought about sandblasting, but was advised that it could >potentially open up voids behind the gel-coat, if there are any Lots of yards like to sandblast. I've even heard of some that insist on it. To paraphrase Don Casey, do you think that they like it because it's good for the boat or because it's fast, cheap and easy? I would never sand blast any hull of mine. At this point, I used fairing compound to fill in any places that needed it. Next job was to make sure that there was no mould release wax left. It's possible that this may have been the cause for the poor adhesion of what looked like the original bottom paint. I went over the hull carefully with wax remover and paper towels. Try not to breathe the vapor from that stuff. Don't use acetone for this purpose because it tends to just spread the wax around instead of moving it to the towel. The rest was easy: Six coats of West Marine two part epoxy barrier coat and then six coats of West Marine ablative bottom paint. I chose ablative for three reasons: It doesn't oxidize, so I wasn't worried about the relative timing of launching and painting; when it's worn out, it's gone - I won't have to scrape the stuff off again; I could put the first couple of coats on in a different color, so that I can easily tell when it's time to haul and repaint. > Due to the lapstrakes, the stripe is rather complicated - not really straight at >all, but kind of sawtoothed and wider in some places than others. I >like the way it looks, and would like to paint it back on. Has anyone >come up with some clever method to mark it for future reference? Mine was easy, it's molded into the hull. How about scoring along the edges of the current one with a utility knife? Was it fun? No. Would I do it again? Yes, in a heartbeat. Not only did I save a bundle of money, but I got to really know the boat, and I know that it was done exactly as I wanted it. Giles Morris Arlington VA M-15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: M_Boats: New M-15 Owner Date: 22 Jul 1999 11:15:18 -0500 Yippee! I'm the happy new owner of the 1988 Montgomery 15, hull #412, that I posted about a few days ago, and, of course, itching to get it out onto the water. I've got a few questions for the group, as you might imagine. Any help is greatly appreciated. Teak toe rails - what's the best way to freshen these up? an oil of some sort? is it necessary? Gel-coat chips along the edge of the deck - what's the best way to fix these? Would like to make sure the rudder is sealed well before departure. Suggestions? Drainage - it looks like the cockpit drains out near the companionway sill under the centerboard rope/cleat area. Is that right? Where does water in the cabin and bilge go? Thanks in advance. After I rig the thing a few times I may have a few more questions. The previous owner took me through the procedure once, but there were a few pulleys and things here and there that weren't used. Hmm. Regards, Eric ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New M-15 Owner Date: 22 Jul 1999 12:30:51 EDT Eric If the toe rails are not in too bad of shape, sand with 120-150 grit to smooth them out..........oil, varnish, cetol,,,,,,,,it's your choice. Gelcoat chips can be ignored if the glass underneath isn' broken or cracked....if you want to repair them, sand out with 80, then 120, use a good marine surface filler, sand smooth, air brush your gelocoat, seal with PVA overnight, sand with 400 wet dry, buff it up............go sailing !!!! Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: Dinghy Date: 22 Jul 1999 14:12:24 -0700 Hello List, Well ... now I'm looking at dinghys. I read a lot on the archives and have decided to scrap the idea of a deflateable. An extensive search on the www turned up an interesting prospect for a "build-it-myself" project. It's a little beauty called Rachel, and uses the stitch and glue method. (I like it even better than the Nymph). The URL is http://www.teleport.com/~andermar/rachel.html I have also received 3 photos from the designer/builder, Mark Anderson, by e-mail. If anyone is interested I can pass them along. -Peter- -- Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: thinking out loud while saving my pennies Date: 22 Jul 1999 20:52:24 PDT Just doing a little thinking out loud here..... For the M-17 galleyless arrangement: A portable slide-away galley with = a sink and stove side by side and a drawer for silverware, etc underneath. Slides = back under the cockpit seats. Pump faucet. Pump dish soap next to the faucet. Dra= in from sink via hose to collapsable tank under the companionway. Fresh water and = drain hoses long enough so galley unit can be lifted out to cockpit. Maybe galley = unit three or four inches wider than foot well? Notches in bottom of ends of unit so it fit= s down in between the seats and can't slide when boat rolls. Must be light weight= for hernia-free operation. Maybe 1/8" doorskins w/ bottom edge and handholes stiffened = w/ molding? I wonder how effective the traveller is when down in the footwell. It's = not very long. Would I really miss it if the mainsheet were fixed on the centerline? Feedback appreciated. Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: thinking out loud while saving my pennies Date: 22 Jul 1999 21:53:44 EDT In a message dated 7/22/99 5:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, htmills@bright.net writes: << A portable slide-away galley with a sink and stove side by side and a drawer for silverware, etc underneath. Slides back under the cockpit seats. Pump faucet. Pump dish soap next to the faucet. Drain from sink >> Tod Try this........a tackle box for silverware, small dish soap, shampoo, etc. Rubbermaid dishpan with drainer to fit, bucket on line to fetch water. 18" X 36" half inch exterior grade plywood makes a nice table across the cockpit.......and can be stored under the 1/4 birth cushion.......Single burner propane stove found in Outdoor/Surpluss store (ie REI)........propane cyclinders are about the size of a 2 cell flashlight and can EASILY be removed for storage.......... extended periods of time with no loss of fuel...........even comes with Piezo electric igniter............Wash dishes etc. in cockpit.......use pan and drainer to store when finished.......4 gallon plastic water jugs with spigot are easy to handle and store.........I still use them on my M-23 for potable water( just because I like them) even with a full galley and sink.........10 gallon Rubbermaid containers with lids will fit under the cockpit and can be easily retrieved with a pull line attached......It worked great in my old M-17...........You're set for the weekend.............now go sailing...... Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse Phx, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: galleys and locker cut-outs Date: 21 Jul 1999 22:23:18 -0500 Todd, I too have been doing a lot of thinking about this sort of thing (that's all we can do without boats in the water...:-). When I started my M search, I really wanted the galley layout. I actually wanted an M-17 with the interior of a 30 footer - I love the shippiness of a big-boat cabin. What I realized when I did look at an M-17 with galley, was that there was only one place for a person to sit with headroom. So I'd have a galley, but those rainy days sitting down below with a friend sipping coffee would leave a little to be desired. That made me think that the 4-berth (the newer 3.5 berths were out of my price range) could actually have an advantage. Two people can sit down below facing each other - nice for socializing. Also, at least for my type of cruising (which I've so far done on other people's boats or in my motorboat), I end up cooking and eating in the cockpit or on a dock or the beach fairly often; a galley fixed down below wouldn't be as handy for this - I'd need a portable stove, etc. anyway. That being said, I spent a few enjoyable hours on an M-17 that has the galley layout last weekend, and the galley does provide for some nice storage - also, the sink is a handy place to put things; both dishes and misc. items. And of course it has the huge cockpit locker for storage on the galley side (plus the lid/opening is bigger than the one on the newer models). I ended up with a 4-berth model M-17. I'm planning to cut out the shallow well in the starboard-side locker to get the big storage area for fenders, rode, etc. I've been checking out some nice tackleboxes; I'll probably outfit one for a galley unit, or maybe make something out of wood. A boom tent would probably be nice for cooking on rainy days - or I suppose the portable stove could be used down below as well. And I'll be able to use the whole unit on land too, if I'm so inclined. I think I'd be tempted to have a similar kit even if I had the boat with a galley. For cooking, I've always used either a two-burner propane stove (similar in looks to the Coleman white gas stove, but powered by an external propane cylinder), or a little Gaz butane-cartridge stove. They've both been very satisfactory - in their own way - the Gaz being quick and easy and very stowable; and the two-burner (Gour-Mate brand from REI) being much more like the stove at home, albeit smaller. A note on cutting out the storage well: Connie - I was very interested to read your post on The Cutting Project. My M-17 has a third compartment (leads to the wet locker in the aft part of the cockpit) which has a lid and lip identical to the two storage lockers on the port and starboard sides of the cockpit. The difference is that the wet locker has no tray, the lip just has the fiberglass trough to divert water then goes back up again (and inch or so) and then back down for another inch (as if it were heading down to make the tray) and then is cut all the way around and that's it (boy, pictures _are_ worth a thousand words...). I had planned to follow the wet locker's example and cut out my starboard-locker tray to get more storage, but with this method I couldn't figure out any way to still use the tray without making the opening smaller (and it's already a bit on the small side). Still though, I figured that it would be best to leave the whole lip for strength. If I understood your post correctly, Connie, you cut your tray out at the top of the crest - before the fiberglass starts to go back down to form the side wall of the tray. Did I understand this accurately? Were you concerned about compromising the strength of the lip or cockpit bench? Maybe the M-15 arrangement is different - I suppose that's a possibility too. Either way, I plan to cut mine out - there's just not enough cockpit storage without it; and as far as the quarter berths go, I can't imagine finding _two_ people who'd fit in them comfortably, so one should suffice. Besides, when I'm in a seaway on that trip to Europe/the South Pacific with a fun, witty, resourceful sailing companion, one of us will be on watch so we'll only need the one quarter berth :-) So, those are the thoughts from an inexperienced (unless sitting in it on the trailer counts?) M-owner. Fair winds, Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: further thoughts on the galley.... Date: 22 Jul 1999 23:59:01 PDT Well, hey, Rachel, at least you *have* an M-17 to sit in.....I'm not that= far along yet! I see where you are coming from, Lenny, but I was thinking that it might = be nice to have everything in a single, self-contained unit so by getting that one = thing out I'd have my complete galley and wouldn't have to be rummaging around for diff= erent boxes. I don't know, maybe that would be too much of a good thing. Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: thinking out loud Date: 21 Jul 1999 23:07:04 -0500 Tod - Sorry, I spelled your name wrong on my post - Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: New M-15 Owner Date: 22 Jul 1999 21:04:14 -0700 Cosens, Eric D wrote: > > Yippee! I'm the happy new owner of the 1988 Montgomery 15, hull #412, Congratulations, Eric! What came with the boat? > Teak toe rails - what's the best way to freshen these up? The teak on my '83 was dry and had some cracks, so it needed oil. Sand lightly, 220 paper or so, then use Watco Teak Oil finish. I put it on twice, with an interval of a couple of weeks between applications, just because my wood was so dry. It looks great now. You can touch up with this stuff anytime. Keeping the boat out of the sun will preserve wood the longest. > Gel-coat chips along the edge of the deck - what's the best way to fix > these? I used this new stuff, epoxy for fiberglass, in a tube, available at Home Depot. When that dries you can 'paint' it with gelcoat. Leave a depression in the surface, so gelcoat cna be even with original surface. > Would like to make sure the rudder is sealed well before departure. Any suggestions? Take rudder/tiller apart, making a detailed drawing as you go so you'll be able to put it back together later. I sanded all the wood till smooth then put on 9 coats of exterior varathane, sanding very lightly between coats. > Drainage - it looks like the cockpit drains out near the companionway sill > under the centerboard rope/cleat area. Is that right? Yes! Where does water in > the cabin and bilge go? I think you have to sponge that out, so try not to get it wet in there. Have fun! Fran, M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bownez@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Modification Date: 22 Jul 1999 22:27:36 -0500 Hi Bob, I may have looked at your boat while I was searching for an M17. I saw it in the parking lot at Nancy's Landing on Waconia. I had a lovely sail with Rachel last Sunday on Waconia in my M17 and I believe she has a kick-up rudder in her new 17 that she can tell you about, or perhaps do some "horse trading". She monitors the list and I'm sure she'll see this post. C'mon out to Waconia, there's 4 M17 there now! later, Michael"Bones" Bowden M17 #92 PS I'm constructing a kick-up rudder for my 17, yet keeping the orginal unmolested by saw blades. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bownez@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 22 Jul 1999 22:15:25 -0500 Hi Harvey, Thanks much for the fax on the M23. I wish Jerry had made more of these. The specs did not mention standing headroom, anyone know? I'm digging my M17 presently, this being the height of summer in Minnesota. I was just traveling in northern Minnesota for business the last three days and there are so many beautiful huge lakes available for the trailer sailor. Leech, Vermillion, Rainy, Lake of the Woods etc. I want to sail them all. I find the Seagulls interesting, being a lover of nostalgic motors, but my future dollars will most likely go to modern 4 stroke technology. Hope your summer has been fun-filled. Keep in touch. Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: RE: M_Boats: New M-15 Owner Date: 23 Jul 1999 08:58:36 -0500 Well, the boat came with almost all the necessary stuff (I'm going from memory here): * Trailer. * 2.2 hp Mercury outboard. * A toolbox of basic tools. * A toolbox filled with first aid kit, flare gun, air horn and extra canisters, handheld flares, and an orange distress flag. * Fire extinguisher. * Foldable boarding ladder (you unfold it and hook it over the side as needed). * 2.5 gallon plastic gas can. * Porta-potti. and a hollow "marine" toilet paper holder that looks like a little buoy. Paper stores inside. Lid is screwed out to get at paper. * 6 PFDs (2 adult, 2 child, 2 seat cushion type). * All the necessary line, rigging and sails of course. * A brush on a telescoping aluminum pole. * A telescoping pole with a snap hook on one end and a finger on the other. It says "Handi spar" or something like that on it. Wonder what this is for? I've purchased the following to "commission" her: * 3 fenders. * Anchor, chain and line. * A signal whistle (because it was cheap). * 6 gallon gas can to mix oil/gas at 50:1 ratio. It's basically ready to sail. It is missing the middle batten for the mainsail however. Is that a big deal? Where does everyone get M-15 parts? I sent an email to Nor'Sea a few days ago about the batten, but haven't heard anything yet. Too late on getting water into the cabin. I washed everything all up last night at the car wash, including the cabin (figuring there MUST be a drain in here somewhere). Looks like I'll be doing some sponging tonight. What's the procedure for cleaning out the cockpit drain? It drains more slowly than I think it should and am wondering if there are some leaves and junk down there. Also, the boat's red stripe is a bit faded. What type of paint is best to redo this? -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:04 PM Congratulations, Eric! What came with the boat? > Where does water in the cabin and bilge go? I think you have to sponge that out, so try not to get it wet in there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stanley Townsend Subject: Re: M_Boats: New M-15 Owner Date: 23 Jul 1999 07:12:37 -0700 "Cosens, Eric D" wrote: > It is missing the middle batten for the mainsail however. Is that a big > deal? Where does everyone get M-15 parts? The missing batten will affect the shape of the sail, and thus performance. Batten stock and end caps are available from West Marine. > What's the procedure for cleaning out the cockpit drain? It drains more > slowly than I think it should and am wondering if there are some leaves and > junk down there. Mine gets plugged occasionally (leaves, twigs, etc.). It clears itself when I lower the centerboard in the water. -- townsend@pacific.net (Stanley Townsend - M15 #478 "Freya") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: Sail Slugs Date: 23 Jul 1999 09:49:33 -0700 Can someone who's had their M17 main converted to slugs help me out please? What does one do about the mounting shackle for the tack (the one attached to the Goose neck)? It seems that after adding slugs it would hold the tack about an inch too far forward, and cause the sail to be a bit baggy in the corner. Thanks! -Peter- -- Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 23 Jul 1999 16:17:09 EDT In a message dated 7/22/99 21:04:04 US Mountain Standard Time, bownez@juno.com writes: << The specs did not mention standing headroom, anyone know? >> Bonz It's about 5'8"..........I'm 5'10" and I have to stoop just a bit in the cabin......minor inconvenience........... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: further thoughts on the galley.... Date: 23 Jul 1999 16:20:36 EDT In a message dated 7/22/99 20:32:02 US Mountain Standard Time, htmills@bright.net writes: << I was thinking that it might be nice to have everything in a single, self-contained unit >> Tod If you were really good with wood..........you could build a nice cabinet over the 1/4 berth where the galley is normally installed to house everything........make it look real pretty......... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: galleys and locker cut-outs Date: 23 Jul 1999 17:27:28 EDT In a message dated 7/22/99 20:13:09 US Mountain Standard Time, rland@win.bright.net writes: << So, those are the thoughts from an inexperienced (unless sitting in it on the trailer counts?) M-owner. Fair winds, Rachel >> Rachel Sitting in the boat on the trailer counts too.......... : ). There's no telling how many voyages started that way........... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: Archives Date: 23 Jul 1999 18:57:39 -0700 Just a quick note to Keith Diehl: a big THANK YOU for doing a great job keeping the list archives. They are a great resource for us "newbies". It's great to be able to tap the collective experiences of the group. Thanks again, Kieth! -Peter- -- Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: New M-15 Owner Date: 23 Jul 1999 22:10:41 -0400 Hi Eric... Welcome to the group!! Fire away with the questions...do the rigging bit= several times to get it down pat. Worry about the tow rail later, when you get a better idea of what you want. I oiled my teak at first, then decided I liked varnish/Cetol bette= r. = Regards, Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Eeg Subject: Re: M_Boats: New M-15 Owner Date: 23 Jul 1999 19:42:56 +0000 Hi Eric You can get a new sail batten (fiberglass) from any sailmaker. We don't sell them or make them. (sails or battens). Enjoy your new boat, it sounds great! Bob "Cosens, Eric D" wrote: > Well, the boat came with almost all the necessary stuff (I'm going from > memory here): > > * Trailer. > * 2.2 hp Mercury outboard. > * A toolbox of basic tools. > * A toolbox filled with first aid kit, flare gun, air horn and extra > canisters, handheld flares, and an orange distress flag. > * Fire extinguisher. > * Foldable boarding ladder (you unfold it and hook it over the side as > needed). > * 2.5 gallon plastic gas can. > * Porta-potti. and a hollow "marine" toilet paper holder that looks like a > little buoy. Paper stores inside. Lid is screwed out to get at paper. > * 6 PFDs (2 adult, 2 child, 2 seat cushion type). > * All the necessary line, rigging and sails of course. > * A brush on a telescoping aluminum pole. > * A telescoping pole with a snap hook on one end and a finger on the other. > It says "Handi spar" or something like that on it. Wonder what this is for? > > I've purchased the following to "commission" her: > * 3 fenders. > * Anchor, chain and line. > * A signal whistle (because it was cheap). > * 6 gallon gas can to mix oil/gas at 50:1 ratio. > > It's basically ready to sail. It is missing the middle batten for the > mainsail however. Is that a big deal? Where does everyone get M-15 parts? > I sent an email to Nor'Sea a few days ago about the batten, but haven't > heard anything yet. > > Too late on getting water into the cabin. I washed everything all up last > night at the car wash, including the cabin (figuring there MUST be a drain > in here somewhere). Looks like I'll be doing some sponging tonight. > > What's the procedure for cleaning out the cockpit drain? It drains more > slowly than I think it should and am wondering if there are some leaves and > junk down there. > > Also, the boat's red stripe is a bit faded. What type of paint is best to > redo this? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Francene Lebowitz [mailto:dlebowitz@sprintmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:04 PM > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: New M-15 Owner > > > > Congratulations, Eric! What came with the boat? > > > Where does water in the cabin and bilge go? > > I think you have to sponge that out, so try not to get it wet in there. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Slugs Date: 23 Jul 1999 19:56:39 -0700 Peter: your lowest slug will be several inches above the tack, and that may give some extra fullness in that part of the luff. Adding slugs won't put bagginess right at the tack pin- you haven't changed the location of the tack. Depending on how far above the boom your luff groove re-narrows this bit of extra fullness may or may not be significant. Lay your sail out and see if the lower part of the luff is angled aft toward the pin, or if it is straight the whole length. If angled, you may have a slight problem. If straight, I'd expect no problem. If you have a sailmaker handy, I'd ask him/her. You might also contact Sailrite Kits with the question. -- dwf (I don't own an M-17 - my experience has been with several boats in the 14' - 16' class.) -----Original Message----- >Can someone who's had their M17 main converted to slugs help me out >please? >What does one do about the mounting shackle for the tack (the one >attached to the Goose neck)? It seems that after adding slugs it would >hold the tack about an inch too far forward, and cause the sail to be a >bit baggy in the corner. > >Thanks! > >-Peter- >-- >Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 >Victoria BC Canada >http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 info Date: 24 Jul 1999 00:33:42 -0400 Hi Bones... Glad to hear that you got the fax. = =46rom what I remember, there's standing headroom for shorties...probabl= y under 5'8"...maybe a tad more. Sure wish that I could have bought that M-23 in Florida a few years ago. = But with 99% of the sailing that I do, the M-17 does just fine. I doubt that the Admirable would sleep out more then once in _any_ sailboat. Enjoying Stargazer on Lake Lanier as well. No real time to trailer her this year, so I put her in a slip for 6 months....much easier to setup The older 6hp 'Gull sits in a tub at home, the 'rude alonside it. I alternate tinkering with both. Replaced the broken starter gear that rises to engages the flywheel when the rope is pulled on the 'Rude. = Ran both enough when my two 8 year old nephews were visiting that I learn= ed the starting quirks of the 'Rude (I think), so I may put it back on = Stargazer one day, instead of selling it. Regards, Harvey M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZYacht@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Slugs Date: 24 Jul 1999 00:36:17 EDT Peter, Make sure you have a jackline for your slugs to enable reefing. These and many others are some of the reasons I have not used slugs for years. Get that jackline and try a shackle of the same length as your slug combo to offset the tack......then be prepared to pull foot out an additional distance toward 'band' end of boom. I am sorry I never should have started-- dont say anything if you cant be nice. Enjoy your Sail! Gary O. M-17 #319 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Slugs Date: 23 Jul 1999 21:48:35 -0700 I guess I've never understood why jacklines are necessary in reefing a slugged mainsail. Can you describe your setup in a way that illustrates the necessity of the jackline? Did your sailmaker concur with the necessity? I'd really appreciate understanding this - it's a problem I've never had. Thanks -- dwf -----Original Message----- >Peter, >Make sure you have a jackline for your slugs to enable reefing. These and >many others are some of the reasons I have not used slugs for years. >Get that jackline and try a shackle of the same length as your slug combo to >offset the tack......then be prepared to pull foot out an additional distance >toward 'band' end of boom. I am sorry I never should have started-- dont say >anything if you cant be nice. >Enjoy your Sail! >Gary O. >M-17 #319 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Slugs Date: 24 Jul 1999 09:54:27 -0700 AZYacht@aol.com wrote: > > Peter, > Make sure you have a jackline for your slugs to enable reefing. These and > many others are some of the reasons I have not used slugs for years. > Get that jackline and try a shackle of the same length as your slug combo to > offset the tack......then be prepared to pull foot out an additional distance > toward 'band' end of boom. I am sorry I never should have started-- dont say > anything if you cant be nice. > Enjoy your Sail! > Gary O. > M-17 #319 Thanks for the advice, Gary. The boom length is ok with the additional length added by the slug. I'm going to re-position the slot in the mast as per Rod Johnsons directions in the archives, but not until I'm sure everything else is going to work. I'm also using a Tack Hook when reefing. I think it's going to work out OK. A local canvas shop is going to install the #1 stainless spur grommets and I've ordered slugs and shackles from Jeff Frank at Sail Rite. Hey, the worst that can happen is that I remove the slugs and go back to the bolt rope setup! Oh Bouy, here we go again! (VBG) So what's a "Jack Line'? I did a net search and all I came up with it's a lifeline you attach your safety harness to as you move around the boat. Hmmmm , maybe I spelled "Jack" wrong when I did the search. -Peter- -- Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 (I found a book called 10,000 boat names: now to choose one) Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Slugs Date: 24 Jul 1999 13:25:01 -0700 Peter, I had sail slugs installed on my main (along with a second set of reef points) and would never go back to using the rope-in-the-slot setup again. I think Gary was referring to a topping lift when he advised using a jack line. Also, a sail stop to keep the slugs from falling out of the slot is helpful. After losing a sail stop that tightened inside the slot, I discovered that a bungee sail gasket wrapped tightly around the mast works just fine; maybe even better. Just slide it up and down the mast and it is always conveniently in place. No more lost sail stops... Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco a Poco" -----Original Message----- >AZYacht@aol.com wrote: >> >> Peter, >> Make sure you have a jackline for your slugs to enable reefing. These and >> many others are some of the reasons I have not used slugs for years. >> Get that jackline and try a shackle of the same length as your slug combo to >> offset the tack......then be prepared to pull foot out an additional distance >> toward 'band' end of boom. I am sorry I never should have started-- dont say >> anything if you cant be nice. >> Enjoy your Sail! >> Gary O. >> M-17 #319 > > >Thanks for the advice, Gary. The boom length is ok with the additional >length added by the slug. I'm going to re-position the slot in the mast >as per Rod Johnsons directions in the archives, but not until I'm sure >everything else is going to work. > > I'm also using a Tack Hook when reefing. I think it's going to work out >OK. A local canvas shop is going to install the #1 stainless spur >grommets and I've ordered slugs and shackles from Jeff Frank at Sail >Rite. > >Hey, the worst that can happen is that I remove the slugs and go back to >the bolt rope setup! > >Oh Bouy, here we go again! (VBG) So what's a "Jack Line'? I did a net >search and all I came up with it's a lifeline you attach your safety >harness to as you move around the boat. Hmmmm , maybe I >spelled "Jack" wrong when I did the search. > >-Peter- > >-- >Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 (I found a book called 10,000 boat names: now to >choose one) >Victoria BC Canada >http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Slugs Date: 24 Jul 1999 18:07:21 EDT In a message dated 7/24/99 13:20:17 US Mountain Standard Time, jk@yosemite.net writes: << I had sail slugs installed on my main (along with a second set of reef points) and would never go back to using the rope-in-the-slot setup again. >> Joe I have to agree...........I have slides on my M-23 and wouldn't have it any other way....... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "randy" Subject: Re: M_Boats: New M-15 Owner Date: 24 Jul 1999 19:27:55 -0800 Hi my name is randy robison. I just bought an M15.This boat has no lights or battery. the question I have is were do all the parts go. i.e. bow lights stern light and the battery. I am sure that the factory has a place for them I just don't know where that is. thank randy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Nesbitts" Subject: M_Boats: M-17 Boat Cushions Date: 25 Jul 1999 20:47:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BED6DE.F8A06EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rachel and I just traded rudders and now my wife and I are ready for the = Minnesota Lakes. I now have questions concerning boat cushions. When I = bought my M-17 three years ago, it was lacking v-berth cushions and the = starboard cabin cushion was musty and moldy. After two years of having = it in my garage, I tossed it and failed to take a picture of it or = measure it. My questions are: 1. Does anyone sell M-17 cabin cushions for a 1977 model? 2. Does anyone have the dimensions of these three cushions? 3. I remember the cushion having a vinyl bottom and sides with a cloth = top, is that right? Thanks for your help in advance. Happy Sailing Bob Nesbitt, "Pretty Tacky II" ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BED6DE.F8A06EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rachel and I just traded rudders and = now my wife=20 and I are ready for the Minnesota Lakes.  I now have questions = concerning=20 boat cushions.  When I bought my M-17 three years ago, it was = lacking=20 v-berth cushions and the starboard cabin cushion was musty and = moldy. =20 After two years of having it in my garage, I tossed it and failed to = take a=20 picture of it or measure it.  My questions are:
 
1.  Does anyone sell M-17 cabin = cushions=20 for a 1977 model?
 
2.  Does anyone have the = dimensions of=20 these three cushions?
 
3.  I remember the cushion = having a vinyl=20 bottom and sides with a cloth top, is that right?
 
Thanks for your help in = advance.
Happy Sailing
Bob Nesbitt, "Pretty Tacky=20 II"
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BED6DE.F8A06EA0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-17 Boat Cushions Date: 25 Jul 1999 22:38:06 PDT ---------- > Rachel and I just traded rudders..... So now you have the kick-up rudder? Would you be so kind as to describe = to me how it works?....is it the same mechanism as the M-15 rudder with the over = center push-rod? Thanks. > 1. Does anyone sell M-17 cabin cushions for a 1977 model? a. Perhaps NorSea could fix you up. b. I'll bet if you dropped the boat off at an upholstery shop, they could fix you up. There is a shop near where I work that does= that sort of stuff all the time, mostly seats for semi-trucks, but also cushions and = covers and tarps and such. c. If you are at all handy with a sewing machine, I don't think there is = too much to it. My brother-in-law made new cushions for his S2. They looked just like the originals. I'm = not handy with a sewing machine so I wouldn't even attempt it cause it would look awful. ("Eeuyyhhh.....w= here ever did you get those ugly cushions???"... :-) ) > 2. Does anyone have the dimensions of these three cushions? can't help you there. > 3. I remember the cushion having a vinyl bottom and sides with a cloth= top, > is that right? whatever you like; sounds good. Sorry I couldn't be more help.. Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Haas Subject: Re: M_Boats: Oar locks for M-15 Date: 25 Jul 1999 20:06:40 -0700 Hi MAc; Sorry for the delayed response, haven't been on the site recently. When = I retrieved messages there were 230 or so, A quick clarification, my questions/comments about oars were for the M7'11" I bought recently. I a= dmire your energy wanting to row your M-15, but I think I'll sick to the Honda. If you need a new place to sail, I recommend Fernridge Reservoir outside = of Eugene. You can moor your boat for $10 and either sleep there or at the campground next door (Richardson) I think I recall you have an RV. We ar= e going down again this weekend. Last week we met Len and KIt with there brand new (to them) M17. It was = their first sail. They did a great job cleaning it up, About 7:30 Sunday morn= ing I wandered down to see how they fared the night and they were already out sailing. The only boat out that I could see. On the "E" dock where we m= oored there were 4 Montgomery's; 2 15s and 2 17s. Its about a 2 1/2 hour drive, mostly freeway. Don Haas Dream Catcher M15 - 248. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Mclain, Mac" wrote: > Don, > I put a set of our temporarily oar lock on my M-15. They have a groove = on > the bottom to fit over the wood molding and sit on the little lip insid= e the > molding too. Two C-clamps like aluminum blocks hold each side down and= in > place. So by loosing two =BC-20 screws I can slide the assembly to fig= ure out > where to finally place the permanent oar locks. I have a piece of plyw= ood > across the seats and a 3" foam seat on top. There is a need for a foot = block > to rest your heals against when rowing. Any way, My question is what so= rt of > oar locks are installed on your boat, and how did they install them. Di= d the > add backing under the gunnels because it seems a weak spot. What length= are > your oars , mine are 9 =BD' and the lower 18" comes off so they store e= asily > inside the boat. Any more information on this subject would be great. I= have > a 2.2 hp. OB but its a 2 cycle and is noisy and pollutes and I don't pl= an on > getting a Honda for a couple of years. I also have a kayaker mentality = and > see no reason to use the OB except for a backup. > Mac M-15 #380 Beaverton, Or. > > The boat came with a set of oars, but were in pretty bad shape. The bl= ades > were delaminating and almost all the varnish was gone. I'm in the proc= ess > of trying to rescue them; epoxy and clamps solved the delamination prob= lem > and I am filling some other minor cracking with epoxy. One more sand= ing > and they will be ready to varnish. Just checked, they are six footers. > Looking forward to getting it in the water soon. There are some places > close by to small for the 15' that should be about right for the little= one. > Thanks, Again, > > Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 25 Jul 1999 00:48:35 -0500 Dear Tod, I'm kind of answering for Bob (Nesbitt) now, since he has the rudder, however I took some photos of it today in case anyone was interested in the mechanism. I could have a friend scan them and then maybe post them on Keith's web page - Keith what do you think? Basically, the rudder was cut in half and then a large stainless plate bolted over the cut and quite a bit of the rest of the rudder on each side of the rudder. The sliding bar arrangement (that the 17 has) was replaced by pintles for the top two gudgeons - the pintles and the stainless plates are all one piece now. The kick-up portion is held up or down by two different lines that cleat off on the rudder (one line for up and one for down). The kick-up function doesn't have anything to do with the position of the tiller - as I gather it does on the 15. Also, I didn't even realize it until Bob and I were looking at the two rudders that the kick-up one had been shortened by about a foot. I'm not sure that it would have to be this way to function as a kick-up though. As I never used the rudder, I guess we'll have to get a report from Bob. I think we've decided that hull #s 266 and 334 are cousins now... So, if anyone would like to see the photos, let me know --- Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: M_Boats: rudder - refinishing and tiller connection piece Date: 25 Jul 1999 01:26:19 -0500 Dear Group, I'm going to re-finish my "new" rudder, and I've got a couple of questions. The boat (when it finally gets launched) will be in a slip all summer on Lake Superior. I'm thinking to varnish the top section, and then put bottom paint on the lower part that's left in the water after I slide it up and cleat it off. Question 1): What to put on the bare wood under the bottom paint? Should I just varnish the whole thing and then apply bottom paint over lightly sanded varnish? Or should I put a coating of epoxy on the part that's going to be painted - I've got plenty of System 3 sitting around. Of course then there'd be a "seam" between the two finish types. What have others done, and what worked or didn't? Question 2): I've never seen the rudder and tiller put together (well I did on Bones' boat, but I can't remember what it looked like), and there really aren't any tell-tale marks on either the rudder or the tiller right now. Plus, Bob's tiller handle had two flat metal plates connecting it to his rudder which is different than what I've got... I have two blackish-grey pieces - they look like cast metal of some sort - aluminum?. They're very enlongated diamond shapes with tapering extrusions on the edges. The two ends of the diamond aren't exactly the same, one is longer than the other. The longer end has three smaller holes (quarter inch or so) and two larger ones in between the small ones. The shorter end has three holes ranging from large (five-eigths inch or so) towards the middle of the diamond to small (about a quarter inch) on the end. It looks like only the smalles holes have been used in the past (judging by the wear on the metal). I'm guessing the small end goes on the rudder and the longer end on the tiller...Can anyone tell me for sure? Thanks in advance for any input --- Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: M_Boats: M-15 Drainage Question Date: 26 Jul 1999 11:18:41 -0500 Another new M-15 owner question: Okay, I washed the inside of my M-15 cabin before I found out there wasn't any drain in there. I've sponged out all the accessible areas, but there remains a well of some kind looking aft under the cockpit foot well. It's filled with water. Does this drain when the centerboard is lowered or am I going to have to pump/siphon it out? Regards, Eric ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Drainage Question Date: 26 Jul 1999 12:48:31 EDT In a message dated 7/26/99 09:19:32 US Mountain Standard Time, ecosens@indiana.edu writes: << Does this drain when the centerboard is lowered or am I going to have to pump/siphon it out? >> Eric Get out the sponge...........hehe. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert A. Pelc" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Drainage Question Date: 26 Jul 1999 13:48:08 -0400 Eric, To me a person almost has to be double jointed and very small to sponge out the bilge in the M-15, so someone gave me the idea of a wet-dry shop vac it worked super, vac out the watet then let it blow in to dry out quick. Bob M-15 Samba At 11:18 AM 7/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >Another new M-15 owner question: > >Okay, I washed the inside of my M-15 cabin before I found out there wasn't >any drain in there. > >I've sponged out all the accessible areas, but there remains a well of some >kind looking aft under the cockpit foot well. It's filled with water. Does >this drain when the centerboard is lowered or am I going to have to >pump/siphon it out? > >Regards, >Eric > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-17 Boat Cushions Date: 26 Jul 1999 14:42:36 EDT In a message dated 7/25/99 18:54:23 US Mountain Standard Time, nesbitt@wavetech.net writes: << 1. Does anyone sell M-17 cabin cushions for a 1977 model? >> You may do best by going to an upholstery shop locally. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Drainage Question Date: 26 Jul 1999 15:34:57 EDT In a message dated 7/26/99 10:35:25 US Mountain Standard Time, samba@mpinet.net writes: << so someone gave me the idea of a wet-dry shop vac it worked super, vac out the watet then let it blow in to dry out quick. >> Y-O-O-O Bob........ Great idea...... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick-up rudder Date: 26 Jul 1999 17:40:36 PDT Thanks, Rachel....sounds like it's a lot like the system on my JY9. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Drainage Question Date: 26 Jul 1999 20:54:04 -0400 Eric, If you are talking about the aft end of the cabin, in front of the bulkhead, you'll have to get the water out with a spong. If you are talking about the aft end of the keel, which has a sump, I can only get at that after I cut open the molded in locker in my starboard sail locker. >From your description, I assume that you still have water in the main cabin, behind the centerboard trunk housing. That doesn't drain anywhere; you have to remove the water the hard way, with a sponge. The only drain to the centerboard trunk is from the cockpit, which is just under the teak board that has the main sheet block and cam cleat. Connie M-15 #400 LEPPO ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Drainage Question Date: 26 Jul 1999 18:40:11 -0700 Am I the only one who pumps the water out of an M-15's bilge with... ta-da... a bilge pump? The bilge pump is permanently mounted in the cockpit well. For small amounts of water, I pump the water directly into the scuppers. Larger amounts of water (thankfully, I've never needed to use "Plan B") are pumped overboard via a hose attached to the pump outlet. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco a Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: M_Boats: M17 for sale Date: 26 Jul 1999 20:11:28 PDT Greetings, The Sunday Oregonian advertised a M17 for sale. Asking $6K, obo. 541 937-8027 Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Drainage Question Date: 26 Jul 1999 20:18:45 PDT Eric, Break out the sponges! Steve >Another new M-15 owner question: > >Okay, I washed the inside of my M-15 cabin before I found out there wasn't >any drain in there. > >I've sponged out all the accessible areas, but there remains a well of some >kind looking aft under the cockpit foot well. It's filled with water. Does >this drain when the centerboard is lowered or am I going to have to >pump/siphon it out? > >Regards, >Eric > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: rudder - refinishing and tiller connection piece Date: 27 Jul 1999 01:14:30 -0700 >2 cents worth, > I have two blackish-grey pieces - they look like cast metal of some >sort - aluminum?. They're very enlongated diamond shapes with tapering >extrusions on the edges. The two ends of the diamond aren't exactly the >same, one is longer than the other. The longer end has three smaller >holes (quarter inch or so) and two larger ones in between the small >ones. Reply: The 3 smaller holes on the elongated end attach to the tiller with 3 each, 3/16" X 2 1/4" SS bolts. At the opposite end, (last hole) I have a 3/8" X 2 3/4" SS bolt with lock washer and wing nut that attaches to the rudder. I tighten the wing nut just enough so the tiller stays where I put it when lifted. >I'm thinking to varnish the top section, and then put bottom paint on >the lower part that's left in the water after I slide it up and cleat it >off. >Preference only: I think of the M17 rudder in a natural finish as a >beautiful piece of art. I am a trailer sailor but if I were to leave the >boat in the water for more than a weekend, I think I would remove and >store the rudder out of the water. Fortunately the removal /installation >process is quick and easy. I would think twice about painting unless a >decent natural re-finish job was not possible. (very hard to get paint out >of mahogany's grain for future refinishers) >Older post: >Also, the boat's red stripe is a bit faded. What type of paint is best to redo this? If it's the gel coat that is faded, oxidized or scumed up, invest $3.50 in a can of Brasso. Yes, the same Brasso I used in the army many years ago, a truly remarkable product. It's not harsh like rubbing compound, but if there is any gel coat finish left under there, this stuff will make it look like new again. Mike M17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: rudder - refinishing and tiller connection piece Date: 25 Jul 1999 04:43:49 -0500 Dear Mike, Thank-you very much for the information on the rudder/tiller connection bracket, that's just what I needed to know - especially the bolt sizes, now I should be able to find them in the giant zip-loc bag of hardware that came with the boat :-) Concerning the finish of the rudder, you wrote the following: > > >Preference only: I think of the M17 rudder in a natural finish as a > >beautiful piece of art. I am a trailer sailor but if I were to leave the > >boat in the water for more than a weekend, I think I would remove and > >store the rudder out of the water. Fortunately the removal /installation > >process is quick and easy. I would think twice about painting unless a > >decent natural re-finish job was not possible. (very hard to get paint out > >of mahogany's grain for future refinishers) > > I agree with you on the beauty of the rudder and plan to varnish it (have my Epifanes and brushes ready if our humidity level _ever_ goes down to a reasonable level). The only part I was going to bottom-paint is the little bit that would be left in the water after I raise it to its highest position and cleat it off (I'll be keeping the boat in a slip). Looking at the size of it - it's as tall as I am - I think it might make me think twice about going for a quick evening sail if I had to wrestle it in and out of the cabin of the boat each time - I know, those of you who trailer each time probably think this sounds like a minor complaint, but there's no worse angle on the back than leaning over the transom trying to do something on a boat that's in the water, and I shudder to think how the cabin would look after a few times of cramming the wet rudder into it and then closing it up. If I were trailering I don't think I'd paint the bottom of the boat or the rudder. That being said, I've spent many an hour stripping paint off the intricate door and window trim of old houses, and I know what a pain it is if someone's painted the wood as a first coat - it really gets into the pores of the wood. That's why I was thinking of varnishing the whole thing and _then_ painting the bottom section. However I noticed that the varnish specifies "above the waterline" use only, so that's why I was asking: what would happen if I varnished but then put bottom paint over it? Anyone have any results to share or any other good methods? TIA, Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 Drainage Question Date: 27 Jul 1999 08:40:32 -0500 Joe, That's exactly what I was thinking! Sponging or shop-vacuuming are okay for now, but I don't think I want to do that more than once. And since I'm just learning how to sail, if I ever flip the boat it'll be a great convenience to just let the pump to the bailing. How large is your bilge pump in terms of physical dimensions? What kind is it? Does it have an intake hose or does it just pull in through the pump housing? You say your pump is mounted in the cockpit well? The water I'm interested in getting at is in the inside of the boat in a well aft of the bulkhead. Looks like it's directly under the cockpit's foot well. Someone here on the list called it the "keel well" (at the back of the keel). Are we talking about the same thing here? Which scuppers do you pump the small amounts of water into? As you may be able to tell, I'm quite interested in your setup. Regards, Eric Indiana, #412 not named yet. Considering the name, "Lucy Maud" at this point. Anyone get the reference? -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 8:40 PM Am I the only one who pumps the water out of an M-15's bilge with... ta-da... a bilge pump? The bilge pump is permanently mounted in the cockpit well. For small amounts of water, I pump the water directly into the scuppers. Larger amounts of water (thankfully, I've never needed to use "Plan B") are pumped overboard via a hose attached to the pump outlet. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco a Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 Drainage Question Date: 27 Jul 1999 09:37:08 -0500 >Am I the only one who pumps the water out of an M-15's bilge >with... ta-da... a bilge pump? Umiaq has a submersible electric pump in the bottom of the well in the keel that exhausts into the cockpit just over the drain. That's about to get upgraded to an automatic submersible pump. An additional manual pump is on my list of things to do (the pump is in the garage right now, where its usefulness is limited). The M-15 is a small boat, which means that it doesn't take much water to be a real nuisance. BTW: I always carry a bucket as an emergency bailer. Giles Morris Arlington VA M-15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: M_Boats: M-15 Drainage Question Date: 27 Jul 1999 09:01:55 -0700 Eric, The bilge pump was mounted on the boat when I bought it, but it appears to be a relatively simple installation. (Cut the correct sized hole with a sabre saw, drill the mounting screw holes, attach the bilge pump using supplied gaskets and hardware, plumb the pickup and discharge hoses, etc...) My pump is an off-brand, but in appearance it is almost identical to the Jabsco Amazon Universal (WM catalogue, page 416, $74.99). It is mounted in the starboard side of the cockpit footwell just forward of the locker lid. The pick-up line is routed into the bilge sump aft of the keel/centerboard structure. The discharge port is routed through the forward starboard side of the footwell below the teak bridgedeck. The bilge water is pumped into the cockpit where it drains out through the cockpit scuppers -- or a piece of tubing can be shoved into the discharge port so that the bilgewater can be dumped outboard. The handle to the pump is stowed in the shallow starboard cockpit locker. So far, I have used the pump very little but it seems to work extremely well. Best of all, the pump is always conveniently located and ready to use when I need it. No frantic searching for a wayward sponge or bailer. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZYacht@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Slugs Date: 27 Jul 1999 15:24:28 EDT Peter, A jackline or whatever it may be called in other parts of the world, is used to 1. Keep the sail slugs in 'proper order' from top to bottom, and I believe, 2.To confuse the issue of sail slugs even more than some of us find tolerable!!. Please check on the second usage as I may be expressing an opinion on that one. ? What do you do with your 'reefed out of commission slugs' when you have one or both(?) reefs in? I was not referring to a topping lift as I was schooled to ALWAYS take the aft reef line (assuming jiffy reef) in first, then lower halyard and take in forward line. I do attach my main haly. to the outboard end of the boom when not in use but no topping lift. I USUALLY subscribe to the K.I.S.S. theory and also find topping lifts to be excess weight aloft, tangle prone, and most of all ugly. ( I have strayed from pure K.I.S.S. and use a Boomkicker on my 17. Love It!) All of the above info is subject to IMHO. Check for accuracy and application. Have Fun Sail More Often. Gary O. M-17 # 319 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: M_Boats: M-15 Newbie Rigging Question Date: 27 Jul 1999 14:58:52 -0500 I have a question about, I think, a piece of the standing rigging on my new (i.e. new to me) M-15. The previous owner showed me how to rig it only once (as it was getting dark) so here it goes. 1. The stepped mast is held in place by the forestay and the port and starboard shrouds. This I understand. 2. The boom is attached to the mast and the aft end of the mast is held up with another cable that has a shackle on the end. What is this cable called? Also, is it used while actually in the process of sailing or just as an aid when attaching the sails? The previous owner said it interfered with the leech of the sail if they left it on while sailing, so after they hoisted the mainsail they detached this cable and tied it down to the mast. Here's a picture (mono-spaced font) if it helps show what I'm trying to ask about. /| / | / | what's this? => / | / | mast / | aft /------| forward boom | | Regards, Eric Bloomington, IN M-15 #412 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan_Harstad@datacard.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Newbie Rigging Question Date: 27 Jul 1999 14:58:31 -0500 "Cosens, Eric D" on 07/27/99 02:58:52 PM Please respond to montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com cc: (bcc: Bryan Harstad/US/DataCard) I have a question about, I think, a piece of the standing rigging on my new (i.e. new to me) M-15. The previous owner showed me how to rig it only once (as it was getting dark) so here it goes. 1. The stepped mast is held in place by the forestay and the port and starboard shrouds. This I understand. 2. The boom is attached to the mast and the aft end of the mast is held up with another cable that has a shackle on the end. What is this cable called? Its a topping lift Also, is it used while actually in the process of sailing or just as an aid when attaching the sails? Just in attaching sail. The previous owner said it interfered with the leech of the sail if they left it on while sailing, so after they hoisted the mainsail they detached this cable and tied it down to the mast. I have a M17, and I detach it from the boom and attach it to the back stay. Here's a picture (mono-spaced font) if it helps show what I'm trying to ask about. /| / | / | what's this? => / | / | mast / | aft /------| forward boom | | Regards, Eric Bloomington, IN M-15 #412 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 Newbie Rigging Question Date: 27 Jul 1999 15:17:09 -0500 >What is this cable called? It's called a topping lift >is it used while actually in the process of sailing or just as an aid when attaching the sails? Sort of in between. If the main is up, the topping lift should be slack (see below), but I find it extremely valuable while the sail is attached but down (e.g. at anchor). Its function is simply to keep the boom and mainsail out of the way when the sail is not hoisted. Boats with a backstay present the option of using a short piece of line attached to the backstay as a topping lift, but the M-15 has no backstay. It also makes it much easier to take in a reef. >The previous owner said it interfered with the leech of the sail if they left it on while sailing The topping lift should always be slack when the sail is up, for a couple of reasons: If the leach of the sail isn't in tension it loses shape and the air that you have carefully fooled into working for you is free to creep away without giving its best; and the tension from the mainsheet is being channeled through the topping lift, which is probably not meant to stand it. >so after they hoisted the mainsail they detached this cable and tied it down to the mast You can do that, or it would be more convenient to make it a length that supports the boom when the sail is up and becomes slack when the sail is hoisted. Or you could make it adjustable, which is the arrangement I have on Umiaq (I've searched the sailing textbooks in vain for the obvious reason to do this - it allows you to attach a Sunshower to the boom and raise it high enough to shower comfortably in the cockpit). Giles Morris Arlington VA M-15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Newbie Rigging Question Date: 27 Jul 1999 16:42:21 EDT In a message dated 7/27/99 13:09:16 US Mountain Standard Time, Bryan_Harstad@datacard.com writes: << The previous owner said it interfered with the leech of the sail if they left it on while sailing, so after they hoisted the mainsail they detached this cable and tied it down to the mast. >> Bryan Not only that, I left the topping lift hooked up on my 17 one day and couldn't for the life of me figure out why she wouldn't come about on a tack.........hehehee.....I had a really good laugh on that one. Be careful if you're using it while rigging that you don't drive off to the ramp without securing the boom............"BIG BOOM" will be the next thing you hear going around a corner. Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse Phx, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 Newbie Rigging Question Date: 27 Jul 1999 23:59:19 -0400 Topping lift treatise I rerigged my topping lift this year to make it adjustable. I haven't formed a firm opinion yet on the success of this little project. I dislike the extra rigging, but like being able to raise aft end of the the boom high when not sailing to have it out of the way, ala Doug Kelch. Sure, I could move the main halyard to the aft end of the boom, but it's so quick to just tug on the TL and reset it in the clam cleat. An adjustable TL can be valuable. Earlier this year, at the June Rondevous, I used the TL as a jury main halyard when mine jumped the masthead block and jammed. Couldn't have done that last year when it was tied off at the top. When sailing, its easy to release tension on the TL as soon as the main halyard is cleated. You can't use the main halyard as a boom holder during those awkward times when you are about to raise the main, or have just lowered it, but the TL is always there, There are other halyards to use for the sunshower, and they aren't in use at the time, holding the boom up out of the cockpit! The other negative for me is caused by the location of my masthead TL block, a few inches down from the top of the mast. The previous owner had a masthead windex/light unit that left quite a few holes on the starboard side of the mast top, so I installed the block below those holes. If I'm not on the starboard tack when raising sail, and watching carefully, the mainsail headboard tends to come up on the wrong side of the TL line and can't go to the top. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Newbie Rigging Question Date: 27 Jul 1999 21:17:06 -0700 Bill: starboard tack is normally where you want to be when hoisting/lowering/reefing sail anyway - That gives you the right of way over port-tack boats, so it's less you have to watch out for. My topping lift is attached at the shrouds. I've had better luck with this lower topping lift block location - the headboard tends to clear it better and sooner as I raise the sail -- dwf -----Original Message----- > Topping lift treatise > >I rerigged my topping lift this year to make it adjustable. I haven't >formed a firm opinion yet on the success of this little project. I dislike >the extra rigging, but like being able to raise aft end of the the boom high >when not sailing to have it out of the way, ala Doug Kelch. Sure, I could >move the main halyard to the aft end of the boom, but it's so quick to just >tug on the TL and reset it in the clam cleat. > >An adjustable TL can be valuable. Earlier this year, at the June Rondevous, >I used the TL as a jury main halyard when mine jumped the masthead block and >jammed. Couldn't have done that last year when it was tied off at the top. > >When sailing, its easy to release tension on the TL as soon as the main >halyard is cleated. You can't use the main halyard as a boom holder during >those awkward times when you are about to raise the main, or have just >lowered it, but the TL is always there, > >There are other halyards to use for the sunshower, and they aren't in use at >the time, holding the boom up out of the cockpit! > >The other negative for me is caused by the location of my masthead TL block, >a few inches down from the top of the mast. The previous owner had a >masthead windex/light unit that left quite a few holes on the starboard side >of the mast top, so I installed the block below those holes. If I'm not on >the starboard tack when raising sail, and watching carefully, the mainsail >headboard tends to come up on the wrong side of the TL line and can't go to >the top. > >Bill Riker >M-15 #184 >Storm Petrel > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan_Harstad@datacard.com Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 Newbie Rigging Question Date: 28 Jul 1999 08:56:37 -0500 There are several ways of making a topping lift. One way is to make it look like a spare halyard. On my boat, Its not adjustable, its tied off at the top, has a fixed length with a catch on the bottom. I have also seen the following, the topping lift is tied off at the top, and there is a small pully at the end of the boom. The toping left goes thru the pully into a clam cleat, then there is a knot at the end of the rope, so that the rope can not come completely out of the clam cleat. Bryan "Bill Riker" on 07/27/99 10:59:19 PM Please respond to montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com cc: (bcc: Bryan Harstad/US/DataCard) Topping lift treatise I rerigged my topping lift this year to make it adjustable. I haven't formed a firm opinion yet on the success of this little project. I dislike the extra rigging, but like being able to raise aft end of the the boom high when not sailing to have it out of the way, ala Doug Kelch. Sure, I could move the main halyard to the aft end of the boom, but it's so quick to just tug on the TL and reset it in the clam cleat. An adjustable TL can be valuable. Earlier this year, at the June Rondevous, I used the TL as a jury main halyard when mine jumped the masthead block and jammed. Couldn't have done that last year when it was tied off at the top. When sailing, its easy to release tension on the TL as soon as the main halyard is cleated. You can't use the main halyard as a boom holder during those awkward times when you are about to raise the main, or have just lowered it, but the TL is always there, There are other halyards to use for the sunshower, and they aren't in use at the time, holding the boom up out of the cockpit! The other negative for me is caused by the location of my masthead TL block, a few inches down from the top of the mast. The previous owner had a masthead windex/light unit that left quite a few holes on the starboard side of the mast top, so I installed the block below those holes. If I'm not on the starboard tack when raising sail, and watching carefully, the mainsail headboard tends to come up on the wrong side of the TL line and can't go to the top. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan_Harstad@datacard.com Subject: M_Boats: Not using the outboard Date: 28 Jul 1999 09:13:08 -0500 My boat is currently docked in a slip that is at the end of a peir. I was using the outboard all the time, and I would turn it on for a few minutes each time I launched/landed. Lately, I have been trying to launch/land the boat without using the outboard. I would suggest trying this, its fun (an a sadomasicistic kind of way). One thing that I found out is its is a good idea to have a backup plan, ie if you can't make it to your slip, its better to find some other slip, instead trying to make it to your slip. I have a paddle to help me when I can't sail out, and for about a month, I didn't have too much of a problem. Last weekend the wind was kind of high, but I had been able to paddle out in this kind of wind before. The problem was that this time I had to paddle directly into the wind, and I could not get any head way. I had a long telescoping paddle, and ended up pushing off of the ends of the slips that I was being blown into. From this experience I figured out a better way. Has anyone used a long telescoping pole to pole the boat? I was thinking that you could get a 10-12ft pole that could telescope to 20+ft, when not in use you could attach it to the mast. The other option is to have a electric trolling motor with a solar recharger. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: Did you settle on a name for... Date: 28 Jul 1999 19:12:50 PDT Did you settle on a name for your M-15 yet Fran? Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dinghy Date: 28 Jul 1999 20:44:38 -0400 Peter, I built a NYMPH as a dinghy for my ComPac 16. Comments: It rows very well with two people aboard - never tried more. I like the fore and aft seat, it allows you to adjust boat trim when you have a load in the boat. I remounted my oar locks so that the oarlocks were at right angles to the oar looms when rowing. In the original position, they were vertical, and with each stroke of the oars the loom would try and climb out of the oar locks. Not dangerous, just annoying when you are rowing a longer distance, as I did. NYMPH was built out of 1/4" lauan plywood. The exterior was covered with fiberglass cloth set in epoxy: the interior was varnished. Add stiffeners at the corners, and cut a hole in them as a means of tying a mooring line when at a dinghy dock. Makes life a lot simpler - and you can moor the boat alongside the M and keep it in place with these simple mooring devices. The NYMPH is very light and easy to cartop. My oars are 7 feet long, and I bought them from an oar and paddle builder in Nova Scotia. They are thin and elegant. Forget the telephone pole clubs sold as oars at WEST and others. Get real oars, and enjoy the difference! Another thought: the ideal is if the oar can be made to balance in the oar lock. Then you don't expend energy lifting dead weight up with each stroke. (some lead in the handle? Haven't done that, but it would be worth a try. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Fell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Newbie Rigging Question Date: 28 Jul 1999 19:47:15 -0700 My topping lift is set at all times. When the sail is down, the topping lift is engaged, but when I raise the sail, the topping lift is not engaged any longer because the boom is lifted by the sail being raised to the fully up position. when I need to drop the sail , the topping lift is in position and holds the boom from falling. It is never in the way, or tangles with anything, or interfers with the leach of the sail. My advise, for whatever it is worth, is to set your sail. Then attach your topping lift with slack in the line. This will keep it from interfering with your sail and boom movement, and will enable you to sail in any direction. If anyone either agree's or disagree's with me please let me know. I would be interested in hearing from you. It works for me. John Fell M15 *126 -----Original Message----- >In a message dated 7/27/99 13:09:16 US Mountain Standard Time, >Bryan_Harstad@datacard.com writes: > ><< > The previous owner said it interfered > with the leech of the sail if they left it on while sailing, so after they > hoisted the mainsail they detached this cable and tied it down to the mast. > >> >Bryan > Not only that, I left the topping lift hooked up on my 17 one day and >couldn't for the life of me figure out why she wouldn't come about on a >tack.........hehehee.....I had a really good laugh on that one. Be careful >if you're using it while rigging that you don't drive off to the ramp without >securing the boom............"BIG BOOM" will be the next thing you hear going >around a corner. > >Lenny >M-23#003 >Sea Horse >Phx, Az > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Newbie Rigging Question Date: 28 Jul 1999 20:16:42 -0700 John: I too always leave my topping lift attached. Mine is rigged a bit lower on the mast than most to avoid fouling the main when hoisting it. I've never had a problem from the topping lift. -- dwf -----Original Message----- >My topping lift is set at all times. When the sail is down, the topping lift ==========> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 info Date: 28 Jul 1999 21:44:41 -0700 To Roy (Bernard Rollins?) Thanks for mailing me the info and the photos on the M23. I put your earlier e-mail in a "safe" place, and now can't find it, so please excuse me replying through the list. In one of the photos it looks like it says "M17" on the mainsail. Could that be? Anyway, I'll add the info to my Monty file. Thanks again! -Peter- -- Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: M_Boats: M-17 centerboard pendant Date: 25 Jul 1999 08:40:55 -0500 Dear Group, Sometime in the next week or so, I'm going to (attempt to) drop the centerboard from my M-17. I have a feeling that it's stuck in the keel right now, but we'll see. I decided it was time to replace the centerboard pendant when I unwound it from the winch and kept the spiral shape - it's stiff as a board! Since I have no idea if this is the original or a replacement, does anyone know what the factory/recommended line type, construction, and size should be? Also, what type and size of shackle should be used? I haven't exactly decided how to jack it off the trailer yet (Bones, I'm having trouble visualizing the method you used, now that I've looked at the trailer again). I'd like to avoid a Humpty-Dumpty-like event if possible (having neither king's horses nor king's men at my disposal). Does anyone have any suggestions? I don't have anything too fancy to use, just the usual jacks, jack-stands, planks, etc. Thanks in advance for any tips --- Rachel (hoping to get the boat in the water while it's still liquid...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Did you settle on a name for... Date: 29 Jul 1999 07:55:14 +0000 Tod, No, I haven't picked a name yet. The boat is light blue with a navy blue shear stripe, so it's got 'the blues'. There were some very good name suggestions offered when I asked for help weeks ago. I thought of "Yawl Blue", but it's not truly a yawl, or is it? My husband keeps calling it "Old Blue", but that reminds me of Sinatra, not one of my favorites( my parent's generation singer, please!). Besides, the boat's not old! Another possibility is "Blew on Blue". What do you all think? By the way, I got some 2" letters and put MONTGOMERY 15 on the rear side of the boat over the shear stripe - I wonder if Bob Eeg is putting an ID decal on new models? People have asked what boat it is. It's free advertising as well. Many people see our boats as we trailer them down the highways. A decal or even classier, an imprint of the model on the boat could help sell some boats, IMHO. Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan_Harstad@datacard.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-17 centerboard pendant Date: 29 Jul 1999 09:58:42 -0500 Someone once said that they lowered there centerboard while it was in the water, and then replaced the pendant. Was this for a Montgomery, or some other boat? rland@win.bright.net on 07/25/99 08:40:55 AM Please respond to montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com cc: (bcc: Bryan Harstad/US/DataCard) Dear Group, Sometime in the next week or so, I'm going to (attempt to) drop the centerboard from my M-17. I have a feeling that it's stuck in the keel right now, but we'll see. I decided it was time to replace the centerboard pendant when I unwound it from the winch and kept the spiral shape - it's stiff as a board! Since I have no idea if this is the original or a replacement, does anyone know what the factory/recommended line type, construction, and size should be? Also, what type and size of shackle should be used? I haven't exactly decided how to jack it off the trailer yet (Bones, I'm having trouble visualizing the method you used, now that I've looked at the trailer again). I'd like to avoid a Humpty-Dumpty-like event if possible (having neither king's horses nor king's men at my disposal). Does anyone have any suggestions? I don't have anything too fancy to use, just the usual jacks, jack-stands, planks, etc. Thanks in advance for any tips --- Rachel (hoping to get the boat in the water while it's still liquid...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: M23 info Date: 29 Jul 1999 11:11:39 EDT In a message dated 7/28/99 9:42:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pjacobs@islandnet.com writes: << In one of the photos it looks like it says "M17" on the mainsail. Could that be? >> Hi Peter, It says M23, and the 26 is the hull #. Glad to hear that you received the packet, in good condition, I hope. The mail handlers can get a bit rough with the mail. I always find my issue of Sailing folded in half from top to bottom, and crammed in my mail box. Happy Sails to You. Roy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Newbie Rigging Question Date: 29 Jul 1999 07:39:41 +0000 Following Dennis Farrell's recommendation, I rigged the topping lift from the shroud bolt- found a small block that the bolt passes through on the starboard side of the mast. TL snaps to eye at end of boom, up through block, down to cleat at starbd lower mast so it's fully adjustable. Works well. Fran M15 236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: M_Boats: M-15 Centerboard Question Date: 29 Jul 1999 11:13:12 -0500 I have a question about the line that controls (i.e. raises and lowers) the centerboard (is this called the "pendant"?). When uncleated, it looks as though the line is free to descend as the centerboard pulls it down. That is, it is free to descend to the point where a knot is tied in the line. My question is: Is this knot something that is supposed to be there as a stop to control how far the CB is extended or is it just a left over from the previous owners sloppy seamanship? Without this knot would the CB swing down too far? I think this is the last operational question I need to get straightened out before I get the boat in the water, hopefully on Saturday morning weather permitting. Regards, Eric Indiana, #412 (thinking of the name "Lucy Maud" as in L. M. Montgomery, the author of the Ann of Green Gables stories.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dan Diehlman" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 Centerboard Question Date: 29 Jul 1999 09:49:30 -0700 Yes, the knot is supposed to be there. As Jerry advises Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 Centerboard Question Date: 29 Jul 1999 13:02:33 -0400 >Is this knot something that is supposed to be there as a >stop to control how far the CB is extended or is it just a left over from >the previous owners sloppy seamanship? Without this knot would the CB swing >down too far? Not only would the CB swing down too far, but by levering itself against the keel it would rip the pivot pin out of the board, probably causing irreparable damage. How do I know? Personal %$#@! Experience, that's how! BTW: The knot must not only be present, but in the right place. Giles Morris Arlington VA M-15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 Centerboard Question Date: 29 Jul 1999 13:05:48 -0500 If one replaces this, how does one determine the correct knot placement? -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 12:03 PM >Is this knot something that is supposed to be there as a >stop to control how far the CB is extended or is it just a left over from >the previous owners sloppy seamanship? Without this knot would the CB swing >down too far? Not only would the CB swing down too far, but by levering itself against the keel it would rip the pivot pin out of the board, probably causing irreparable damage. How do I know? Personal %$#@! Experience, that's how! BTW: The knot must not only be present, but in the right place. Giles Morris Arlington VA M-15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 Centerboard Question Date: 29 Jul 1999 14:09:10 -0400 >> The knot must not only be present, but in the right place > If one replaces this, how does one determine the correct knot placement? With the boat in the water, lower the CB SLOWLY until you feel the binding as the edge contacts its housing. Tie the knot in a position to stop the pennant a (precisely calibrated, ISO 9000) "bit" before it binds (allow for inertia and stretch). Giles Morris Arlington VA M-15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan_Harstad@datacard.com Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 Centerboard Question Date: 29 Jul 1999 14:18:20 -0500 Now what was the formula for inertia. How about stretch? "Morris, Giles" on 07/29/99 01:09:10 PM Please respond to montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com cc: (bcc: Bryan Harstad/US/DataCard) >> The knot must not only be present, but in the right place > If one replaces this, how does one determine the correct knot placement? With the boat in the water, lower the CB SLOWLY until you feel the binding as the edge contacts its housing. Tie the knot in a position to stop the pennant a (precisely calibrated, ISO 9000) "bit" before it binds (allow for inertia and stretch). Giles Morris Arlington VA M-15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: Re: ceneter board lowering Date: 29 Jul 1999 12:15:16 -0700 Interesting reading, the latest thread on centerboards. Seems to pertain to M15's only, though. My 17's board (fibreglass) lowers with a gentle "thunk" and there is a bit of excess lanyard left over before the knot. Is this the way it should be on an M17? When I had her off the trailer I fully lowered the board to see what it looked like. I was surprised at how relatively small it was. I guess I was expecting something larger. Anyway, the profile pretty well matches the keel, and one can just get at the knot on the end of the lanyard. -Peter- -- ====================== Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria, BC CA http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 Centerboard Question Date: 29 Jul 1999 15:26:26 -0400 > Now what was the formula for inertia. How about stretch? Dunno about the formula, but the C code looks like... If(Inertia>Stretch) $$$->BobEeg(for(CenterBoard=new; Pennant(TooLong); --PennantInches)); Giles Morris Arlington VA M-15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mclain, Mac" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Did you settle on a name for... Date: 29 Jul 1999 17:06:10 -0700 That's a great Ideal about the MONTGOMERY 15 because I have been asked a number of times myself. Plus I enjoying looking a boats in the marinas and most of the time can only guess at what it is. If someone had a nice bumper sticker saying my other car was a montgomery 15 that would be on my car very soon. Mac -----Original Message----- From: Francene Lebowitz [mailto:dlebowitz@sprintmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 12:55 AM To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Did you settle on a name for... Tod, No, I haven't picked a name yet. The boat is light blue with a navy blue shear stripe, so it's got 'the blues'. There were some very good name suggestions offered when I asked for help weeks ago. I thought of "Yawl Blue", but it's not truly a yawl, or is it? My husband keeps calling it "Old Blue", but that reminds me of Sinatra, not one of my favorites( my parent's generation singer, please!). Besides, the boat's not old! Another possibility is "Blew on Blue". What do you all think? By the way, I got some 2" letters and put MONTGOMERY 15 on the rear side of the boat over the shear stripe - I wonder if Bob Eeg is putting an ID decal on new models? People have asked what boat it is. It's free advertising as well. Many people see our boats as we trailer them down the highways. A decal or even classier, an imprint of the model on the boat could help sell some boats, IMHO. Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: knot Date: 29 Jul 1999 17:52:12 -0700 The knot tells you how fast you're traveling. Rich "Really" M15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: In response to John's topping lift comments Date: 30 Jul 1999 00:13:13 EDT In a message dated 7/28/1999 7:35:40 PM, you wrote: <> John, Well said. I think there has been some confusion surrounding the=20 installation and use of topping lifts. There is no reason why a topping lif= t=20 has to interfere with the leach of the mainsail on the M15 unless someone ha= s=20 replaced the standard main with a full battened round-roach sail. I chose a=20 Sta-Set (Dacron braid) over cable topping lift to protect the sail from the=20 occasional brushing and because it stows more easily for trailering. I see=20 little reason to use cable with a rig of this size. Stretch is not likely t= o=20 be a concern here, and, at least with most M15's, The lift will be employed=20 sporadically (the exception being the M15 that is stored outside with rig=20 up). Larger boats employ cable topping lifts because of the weight of the=20 boom and furled sail (cable can be of a smaller diameter than comparably=20 rated Dacron braid), and because of the constant exposure of the lift to the=20 elements (Dacron does in fact degrade in UV). I think it is also important to note that the concerns expressed by M17=20 owners about forgetting to disconnect their topping lifts (and were=20 therefore not able to let out the main) do not apply to the M15. The M17 ha= s=20 a fixed backstay, and the topping lift in question was a short 'pigtail' tha= t=20 was either spliced or crimped to the backstay a little way up from the boom. =20 The M15 has no backstay, so the topping lift runs from the end of the boom t= o=20 the masthead. As you mentioned, John, once you position the topping lift so=20 that it is slack while the mainsail is fully hoisted, there need not be=20 concern about it affecting either the shape or trim of the sail. Some will=20 find that there will be small adjustments necessary to the topping lift when=20 tying in reefs (sometimes the line of reef cringles and points is not=20 perfectly parallel to the foot of the main). Those who still have doubts about topping lifts might want to go look at the=20 larger boats in the marina nearby. Whereas it is possible on a boat as smal= l=20 as the M15 to go without a topping lift, larger boats with larger rigs almos= t=20 always have one (yes there are a few larger boats out there with rigid vangs=20 or "Boomkickers but these are exceptions). I was one of those M15 owners wh= o=20 initially was determined to stick with the bolt rope main and no topping=20 lift. My resolve quickly disolved after the third or fourth time I tried to=20 flake the loose-luffed main on an equally loose boom. There is also the=20 issue of reefing. Having the boom remain horizontal while reefing under way=20 or hove-to is not only easier--it is safer too. The ability to hoist (or=20 dowse) the main quickly is another benefit of a topping lift/slug=20 arrangement. Also, if you cruise your 15 as we do, it is nice not to have=20 the boom lying around the cockpit while you are at anchor. We keep our main=20 flaked and covered on the boom (no bags to get in the way) and the topping=20 lift allows us to move about the cockpit freely for cooking and using the=20 head (aft part of cockpit at night). One more thing: some have debated the best way to rig the aforementioned=20 topping lift. I chose "option #1"--that is, I have a small headboard shackl= e=20 that attaches to the eye on the top and end of my boom, the Sta-Set line run= s=20 to a small block mounted on a bail at the masthead (bail mounts on either=20 side of the through pin for the aft main halyard sheave) and down to a cleat=20 near the gooseneck on the mast. This system has the advantage of providing = a=20 spare main halyard or lifting tackle (though you would not want to lift much=20 with the fractional rig!). I suppose that in a real pinch, it could serve a= s=20 an emergency backstay if you lost a shroud (take topping lift to the aft=20 mooring cleat). You can also adjust the lift without having to sheet in the=20 main (if you were on a run, for example). Option #2--a line attached to a=20 fixed eye at the masthead and running down to a turning or cheek block at th= e=20 end of the boom to be cleated off somewhere on the boom has the advantage of=20 reduced weight aloft (does not have the additional length of line from=20 masthead down the mast to an accessible cleat). Phew! Enough of this for now! Two cents please, Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "b=E9b=E9" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry montgomery Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: ceneter board lowering Date: 29 Jul 1999 20:26:21 +0000 Hi Peter Noticed your message on the list and thought I'd comment. The late productions 17's with the glass board are like the 15 in thAt the knot is what limits the board from over-dropping. It should NOT clunk- the clunk means that it is bottoming out on the forward end of the slot, which will eventually cause damage. If my memory is correct, the know should allow 15" of travel. The not should NOT be exposed below; ditto for the 15. If it shows, the board is dropping too much. I wonder if the knots migrate over time??? Be worth checking now and then. Again, if you hear a clunk when lowering the board on a 15 or glass-board 17, it's dropping too far. Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: That aint a topping lift you lazy jack! Date: 30 Jul 1999 00:33:28 EDT In a message dated 7/29/1999 9:06:55 AM, you wrote: <> Fran, Does Dennis sail an M17? What you have here is not a topping lift per se,=20 but sort of a kind of one half of a lazy jack system!! You see, on the M17,=20 the shrouds go all the way to the masthead. On the M15, they only go up=20 about 3/4 of the way. Same with headstay/forestay (hence the term=20 "fractional rig"). So, what's wrong with having the topping lift originate from only 3/4 of the=20 way up the mast, and then on one side? Well, here's the deal. In light=20 airs, when you want your sail to have some shape in it, you are going to=20 loosen your outhaul a bit (outhaul is the line that pulls the clew of the=20 sail back toward the end of the boom) and, voila, the main now is nice and=20 full. Only problem is that you have this line (so called topping lift)=20 making a funny shape out of your otherwise beautiful sail (and where it=20 counts, too). No problem, right? You just loosen the so called topping=20 lift. So far, so good. But then you decide to drop the sail, and wouldn't=20 you know it, the boom falls down and bonks your partner on the head. You=20 see, in order to have the topping lift loose enough to clear the mainsail on=20 any tack or point of sail, you will have to keep it so loose as to negate th= e=20 reason for having one in the first place. Truth of the matter is, this is=20 not a proper topping lift. So, if you have not already cut the line too short, get it up to the masthea= d=20 where it belongs. You'll like it--I promise! People won't point and stare=20 either. Another two cents, please, Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "b=E9b=E9" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Knot in M15 centerboard critical Date: 30 Jul 1999 00:41:33 EDT In a message dated 7/29/1999 9:41:08 AM, you wrote: <> Listen to Giles on this one. The knot is critical. If you do not know the=20 exact distance, let the board down until it clunks, and then pull it back a=20 bit and mark the pennant. Better to err on the side of too far up. =20 Somewhere in the archives is the "official" measurement per Jerry Montgomery= . By the way, if you let the M15 board down all the way, it looks really weird=20 (and probably not very hydrodynamic). Try diving under and having a look. I=20 take this as further proof that it was not intended to "bottom out." Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "b=E9b=E9" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: That aint a topping lift you lazy jack! Date: 29 Jul 1999 22:12:04 -0700 Scott: you seem to be stating opinion as fact. Since both Francene and I sail M-15's (as well as other boats in both cases) your explanation is either overly pedantic or tongue in cheek - I'll opt for tongue in cheek<= G>. Your definition of lazy jacks seems twice deficient: a - in that lazy jac= ks are rigged to (usually) two points on the boom, neither of which is at th= e aft end; b- lazy jacks are usually rigged in port-starboard pairs. You seem to have a strange (to me) idea of when and how to use a topping lift. As soon as the main is rigged, the topping lift is slacked to allo= w the main to take the full weight of the boom and the topping lift isn't disturbing the sail shape, nor is it chafing the main. Before lowering t= he main, one sets up the topping lift to avoid the boom-head encroachment problem. As far as rigging from the masthead or from the shroud (or spreader, if y= ou have them) attachment point my own personal experience (note that I'm not stating this as a universal fact) is that it avoids having the topping li= ft foul the head of the sail on the way up as it will do if rigged above tha= t point but below the exit of the halyard from the mast top. This can be t= he case when the topping lift is to leeward of the main. If to weather, it isn't a problem. If you're suggesting that the topping lift should exit the mast above the halyard exit point enough to clear the headboard and be set up at all tim= es, you've just eliminated the effect of the mainsheet (and the vang) on sail shape. Instead of tensioning the leach, the sheet (and vang) is tensionin= g the topping lift. Not a good idea. Also, I'm not sure where you get the idea that the boom must be held "perfectly parallel" to the reef cringles or reef points. Not necessary, since one sets the tack cringle first, then hauls up on the clew cringle. The topping lift is used only to take enough of the boom weight to allow easy tensioning of the clew reefing line. Nomenclature: that pigtail hanging down from the backstay of some boats = is normally called a boom lift, not a topping lift. It is a dangerous piece = of equipment if used for anything but supporting the boom after the mainsail= is down and properly stowed. The only value I can see in using a masthead topping lift is the one you suggest: it can provide an emergency halyard or stay. Not a bad idea. Cheers -- dwf -----Original Message----- > >In a message dated 7/29/1999 9:06:55 AM, you wrote: > ><from the shroud bolt- found a small block that the bolt passes through >on the starboard side of the mast. TL snaps to eye at end of boom, up >through block, down to cleat at starbd lower mast so it's fully >adjustable. Works well. >Fran M15 236>> > >Fran, >Does Dennis sail an M17? What you have here is not a topping lift per s= e, >but sort of a kind of one half of a lazy jack system!! You see, on the M17, >the shrouds go all the way to the masthead. On the M15, they only go up >about 3/4 of the way. Same with headstay/forestay (hence the term >"fractional rig"). >So, what's wrong with having the topping lift originate from only 3/4 of the >way up the mast, and then on one side? Well, here's the deal. In light >airs, when you want your sail to have some shape in it, you are going to >loosen your outhaul a bit (outhaul is the line that pulls the clew of th= e >sail back toward the end of the boom) and, voila, the main now is nice a= nd >full. Only problem is that you have this line (so called topping lift) >making a funny shape out of your otherwise beautiful sail (and where it >counts, too). No problem, right? You just loosen the so called topping >lift. So far, so good. But then you decide to drop the sail, and would= n't >you know it, the boom falls down and bonks your partner on the head. Yo= u >see, in order to have the topping lift loose enough to clear the mainsai= l on >any tack or point of sail, you will have to keep it so loose as to negat= e the >reason for having one in the first place. Truth of the matter is, this = is >not a proper topping lift. >So, if you have not already cut the line too short, get it up to the masthead >where it belongs. You'll like it--I promise! People won't point and st= are >either. > >Another two cents, please, >Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "b=E9b=E9" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Revisiting the order of reefing events Date: 30 Jul 1999 02:16:25 EDT In a message dated 7/27/1999 12:28:59 PM, you wrote: <> Gary, I have to (respectfully) take issue with this one. I taught sailing for a=20 lot of years, and we did not endorse this method. We did, in fact, strongly=20 discourage it. There are at least two problems with this approach. First,=20 in addition to reducing the amount of sail area, you also want to flatten=20 what sail remains. This is accomplished by getting a good tight luff (via=20 main halyard in this case) and a good tight foot (via the aft reef line). I= t=20 is hard, if not impossible, to do this by taking in your aft reef line first= .=20 The problem is that if you don't haul down and/or hook the tack in first,=20 you cannot pull the foot of the sail taught enough to get the proper shape. =20 There is neither the room or the means of achieving a tight foot by trying t= o=20 pull the tack toward the gooseneck (whereas the clew of the sail can be=20 pulled aft easily, and with a mechanical advantage--at least 2:1 with normal=20 jiffy reefing). I would also suggest that if you can still pull the tack=20 down easily after hauling in your aft reefing line, your foot is probably no= t=20 taught enough for the conditions that warrant reefing in the first place. The second problem arises when you attempt to get a tight foot by hauling in=20 on your aft reef line using the method you propose. Without the tack cringl= e=20 either hauled in or hooked at the gooseneck (depends on the system), you put=20 tremendous stress on the sail, sail boltrope, or sail slugs (again, dependin= g=20 on your system). This stress usually occurs either at the slot at which the=20 bolt rope exits the mast or at the lowest sail slug/slide. My students=20 frequently snapped slugs by trying to reef in this manner. We had our "intermediate" or "basic coastal cruising" (ASA designation)=20 students tie in and shake out reefs constantly. I feel that too many people=20 subject themselves and their crew to uncomfortable and dangerous conditions=20 while trying to reef. Invariably, I see people trying to reef with no=20 steerage or way on--often with the motor on, and the boat headed dead into=20 the wind (and seas). Most jiffy/slab reefing systems are set up with the af= t=20 reefing line you mention far enough forward along the boom (usually on the=20 starboard side--not coincidentally, as starboard tack will have right away=20 under many conditions) so that you can reef while on a relatively close=20 reach. This has manifold advantages. First, the boat will sail nicely unde= r=20 jib alone while the main flogs (luffs). Second, you have steerage and way=20 (read control), and are not a dead and vulnerable target in the water=20 (vulnerable to other boats or rough seas). Third, if you were on a reach in=20 the first place, you continue to make headway toward your destination. I=20 especially like this approach for safety, as the boom, which would otherwise=20 be flailing amidships (heads get smacked) is now off to the leeward side=20 (away from heads). The order of events is as follows: 1) Hold or move to a moderately close reach on the tack that will allow you=20 access to your reefing lines/halyard/tack hook (if set up properly, they wil= l=20 all be same side). 2) Ease mainsheet until mainsail is luffing sufficiently (again, if done=20 correctly, this should result in the boom off the leeward rail. Ease/releas= e=20 your vang if it is on. 3) ease halyard and pull new tack cringle down. Hook or secure depending on=20 system. 4) While the main is still luffing, haul in the new clew using the aft reef=20 line led forward along boom (usually reachable without having to lean out--i= f=20 not, move it forward along boom so that it is). Tension foot by hauling lin= e=20 taught (can put one wrap on cleat and pull downward on line aft on cleat to=20 get mechanical advantage). Cleat off. 5) Haul main halyard and retension luff. Cleat off. 6) coil excess line and secure 7) resheet main so that reef point ties are safely accessible (so that you d= o=20 not have to lean out over the water to tie them). Foot should be taught=20 enough that points are only gathering unused slab of sail (a loose foot can=20 result in too much loading of points--they are a frequent point of failure o= n=20 boats not properly reefed). Roll or otherwise gather the removed slab. Use=20 slip reef knots so that the reef can be shaken out quickly and safely. 8) resume point of sail desired. 9) If boat is still overpowered, tie in an additional reef and/or reduce=20 headsail to reduce drive through the slot (the jib accelerates the air aroun= d=20 the back of main. Going to a reefed or smaller jib opens up this slot, and=20 depowers the main.) If you are shorthanded, or if conditions dictate, you can perform the same=20 procedure while heaving-to. One advantage of reefing while heaving-to is=20 that the stalled hull creates a slick to windward of the boat that actually=20 helps to flatten out the seas (honest!) I have tried this on the M15, and=20 while it is not as effective as boats with more underbody, it does work. The reefing procedure is the same as above excepting that you are stalled=20 slightly off the wind instead of making way. One procedure for heaving-to i= s=20 as follows:=20 1) Determine which tack you will need to be on to access lines. Also=20 determine whether you have enough sea room to slowly drift to leeward of tha= t=20 tack. 2) Tack through the wind to end up on that tack LEAVING THE JIB BACKWINDED. 3) Immediately push the tiller to windward and secure (or have someone hold=20 if not singlehanding). 4) Ease mainsheet to point at which the sail begins to luff (you may have to=20 sheet in a little to maintain your "heading"--but not so much so that you=20 cannot lower/reef the sail. 5) To exit a heave-to, ease the backwinded jib (allow to cross) and center=20 the helm to resume headway on the same tack as you were previously heaved-to= . It takes a little practice, but you should be able to get to the point where=20 the boat either makes slow leeway and very little headway, or where it heads=20 up and falls off repeatedly--also without much headway and just a little=20 leeway. In addition to providing a safe and steady (or steadier) platform=20 for reefing, it is a good storm tactic. I sometimes use it when=20 singlehanding to change in or out of foul weather gear, read a chart, grab=20 something to eat, or answer the call of nature. OK, that is my last dissertation for a while. Sorry if I stepped on any toe= s. Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "b=E9be" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: RE: RE: That aint a topping lift you lazy jack! Date: 30 Jul 1999 04:09:07 EDT MY RESPONSES IN ALL CAPS In a message dated 7/29/1999 10:11:28 PM, you wrote: <.>> YES, THERE WAS HUMOR INTENDED HERE, BUT JUST WHICH OPINION ARE YOU SUGGESTING IS NOT FACTUAL, OR AT VERY LEAST, NOT BORNE OF CONVENTION? <> NOW, NOW, DWF, WHO IS BEING PEDANTIC? OR IS THIS JUST TONGUE IN CHEEK? DIDN'T YOU CONSTRUE MY "KIND OF SORT OF HALF OF A LAZY JACK SYSTEM" DESCRIPTION (NOT DEFINITION) AS A KIND OF HUMOR? I AM FULLY AWARE OF WHAT LAZY JACKS ARE--I'VE HAD THEM ON PRIOR BOATS. YOU GOTTA ADMIT--WHAT YOU (OR FRAN) DESCRIBES LOOKS A BIT LIKE HALF OF A LAZY JACK SYSTEM. <> I CAN SEE THE HUMOR IS RUNNING OUT QUICKLY HERE. I THINK THIS ONLY SEEMS STRANGE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU MISUNDERSTOOD. THE MASTHEAD TOPPING LIFT IS USED *ONLY* TO SUPPORT THE BOOM WHILE WHEN THE MAIN IS LOWERED AND/OR STOWED, OR DURING OPERATIONS SUCH AS REEFING. WHAT I AM ARGUING HERE IS THAT THE MASTHEAD TOPPING LIFT CAN BE PRESET--WITHOUT NEED FOR SUBSEQUENT ADJUSTMENT--SO THAT IT WILL BE SLACK ENOUGH TO CLEAR THE LEACH WHEN THE MAIN IS HOISTED (NO LOAD ON THE TOPPING LIFT), AND THAT THE AMOUNT OF SLACK REQUIRED RESULTS IN A VERY MINIMAL DROP IN THE BOOM WHEN THE MAIN IS LOWERED (AGAIN, REQUIRING NO SUBSEQUENT ADJUSTMENT). I CONTRAST THIS TO THE SYSTEM YOU DESCRIBE BECAUSE IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT THE AMOUNT OF SLACK NECESSARY TO TO CLEAR THE DRAFT OF THE FULL MAIN ON ANY GIVEN POINT OF SAIL WITH YOUR SYSTEM WOULD NEED TO BE MUCH GREATER THAN THAT REQUIRED TO SIMPLY CLEAR THE LEACH ON THE MASTHEAD SYSTEM. IS IT NOT THIS DIFFERENCE IN SLACK THAT REQUIRES YOU TO READJUST THE TOPPING LIFT EACH TIME YOU LOWER YOUR MAIN? COULD THIS NOT RESULT IN THE BOOM DROPPING LOWER THAN IT MIGHT WITH A MASTHEAD LIFT, POSSIBLY BONKING SOMEONE ON THE HEAD--ESPECIALLY IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE CHANCE TO ADJUST YOUR "TOPPING LIFT" PRIOR TO LOWERING THE MAIN? <> I AM NOT STATING ANY OF THIS AS UNIVERSAL FACT EITHER. I WILL SAY, HOWEVER, THAT OF THE HUNDRED OR SO BOATS THAT I HAVE SAILED OR SAILED ON, NONE HAVE HAD THE TYPE OF SYSTEM YOU DESCRIBE. FURTHERMORE, IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT A WALK THROUGH YOUR LOCAL MARINA WOULD LIKELY YIELD SOMETHING LIKE 9O% OF THE BOATS WITH MASTHEAD TOPPING LIFTS WITH THE REMAINING MINORITY EQUIPPED WITH BOOM GALLOWS, RIGID VANGS, OR LAZY JACKS (IN LIEU OF TOPPING LIFTS--LIKE FREEDOMS FOR EXAMPLE). <> JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY SET UP? AGAIN, I AM *SUGGESTING* THAT THE TOPPING LIFT IS ATTACHED BUT ALWAYS SLACK WHEN THE MAIN IS HOISTED. I CERTAINLY AGREE THAT THE TOPPING LIFT IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR RUNNING RIGGING, AND INDEED IS NOT TO BE USED FOR SAIL SHAPE OR TRIM AT ALL. <> GEE DENNIS, IT WOULD BE NICE IF YOU DIDN'T TAKE THIS STATEMENT OUT OF CONTEXT AND THEN MISREPRESENT IT. I WAS SUGGESTING HERE (IN A DIFFERENT POSTING, BY THE WAY) THAT SOME ADJUSTMENT MIGHT BE NECESSARY--YES EVEN WITH A MASTHEAD TOPPING LIFT--TO ASSURE THAT THE LOAD IS NOT INADVERTENTLY TRANSFERRED FROM THE LEACH OF THE SAIL TO THE TOPPING LIFT WHEN REEFING. ALLOW ME TO PROVIDE AN EXAMPLE OF JUST HOW THIS HAPPENS. LET'S SAY THAT THE CLEW CRINGLE FOR A REEF IS IN FACT LOWER THAN THE TACK CRINGLE FOR THE SAME REEF (THAT IS TO SAY, THE RESULTING SLAB OF THE SAIL TO BE REMOVED IS NOT RECTANGULAR, BUT TAPERS DOWN AT THE LEACH END. WHEN THIS REEF IS SET IN, THE BOOM WILL DROP BY THE DISTANCE THE CLEW WAS OFF PARALLEL. WHEN THE BOOM DROPS THIS DISTANCE, THE PREDETERMINED LENGTH OF TOPPING LIFT FOR THE FULL MAINSAIL IS NO LONGER CORRECT, WILL IN FACT BE CARRYING SOME OF THE LOAD, AND WILL NEED TO BE ADJUSTED. CONVERSELY, IF THE NEW LEACH CRINGLE IS HIGHER THAN ITS CORRESPONDING TACK CRINGLE , THE TOPPING LIFT WOULD HAVE EXCESSIVE SLACK, AND HENCE, THE ADJUSTMENT I MENTIONED WOULD AGAIN BE IN ORDER. THE POINT HERE IS NOT, AS YOU SUGGEST THAT I HAD ARGUED, THAT THE REEF POINTS/CRINGLES NEED BE PERFECTLY PARALLEL (THOUGH I HOPE YOU CAN NOW SEE WHY THIS MIGHT NONETHELESS BE A DESIRABLE STATE), BUT THAT IF ONE HAD A MAINSAIL WHERE THEY WERE NOT PARALLEL, THEY WOULD IN FACT NEED TO BE MINDFUL OF THE NECESSARY ADJUSTMENTS TO AVOID THE VERY ILLS WHICH YOU DESCRIBE (LOADING OF TOPPING LIFT). I MIGHT ADD THAT THIS WOULD LIKELY BE THE CASE WITH YOUR SYSTEM AS WELL. <> SOME MIGHT CONSIDER THE NOMENCLATURE DISTINCTION PEDANTIC, BUT YOUR POINT ABOUT THE HERETOFORE LABELED BOOM LIFT IS WELL TAKEN. GLAD WE CAN AGREE ON SOMETHING. <> IF THIS IS TRUE, THEN YOU AND FRAN WILL HAVE ONE ON THE REST OF US MILLIONS OF BOAT OWNERS WITH MASTHEAD TOPPING LIFTS. HEY, YOU MIGHT STILL BE ABLE TO USE YOUR TOPPING LIFT FOR AN EMERGENCY HALYARD--BUT ONLY WITH THE THIRD REEF ;) <> DOUBLE CHEERS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: M_Boats: problems Date: 30 Jul 1999 08:56:37 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEDA69.6EA85760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a test. Last night I experiencing problems with oversized = M-boats messages overloading and stalling my computer. Am I alone in = this? Joe Kidd=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEDA69.6EA85760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a test.  Last night I = experiencing=20 problems with oversized M-boats messages overloading and stalling my=20 computer.  Am I alone in this?
 
Joe Kidd 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEDA69.6EA85760-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RH Subject: M_Boats: unsubscribe Date: 30 Jul 1999 09:09:32 -0700 unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: RE: RE: That aint a topping lift you lazy jack! Date: 30 Jul 1999 09:19:50 -0700 For my part, at this point I agree to disagree with respect to both content and style. The ideas have been presented: let the readers pick and choose what fits their needs. -- dwf -----Original Message----- =====>snip<===== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis W. Farrell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Revisiting the order of reefing events Date: 30 Jul 1999 09:42:46 -0700 This belongs in everyone's "personal textbook" as to both reasoning and procedure. For further support of both, see Pineapple Sails article on reefing at http://www.sailmaker.com/articles/reefing.htm -- dwf -----Original Message----- > >In a message dated 7/27/1999 12:28:59 PM, you wrote: > ><aft reef line (assuming jiffy reef) in first, then lower halyard and tak= e in >forward line.>> > >Gary, >I have to (respectfully) take issue with this one. I taught sailing for= a >lot of years, and we did not endorse this method. We did, in fact, strongly >discourage it. There are at least two problems with this approach. Fir= st, >in addition to reducing the amount of sail area, you also want to flatte= n >what sail remains. This is accomplished by getting a good tight luff (v= ia >main halyard in this case) and a good tight foot (via the aft reef line). It >is hard, if not impossible, to do this by taking in your aft reef line first. > The problem is that if you don't haul down and/or hook the tack in firs= t, >you cannot pull the foot of the sail taught enough to get the proper sha= pe. >There is neither the room or the means of achieving a tight foot by tryi= ng to >pull the tack toward the gooseneck (whereas the clew of the sail can be >pulled aft easily, and with a mechanical advantage--at least 2:1 with normal >jiffy reefing). I would also suggest that if you can still pull the tac= k >down easily after hauling in your aft reefing line, your foot is probabl= y not >taught enough for the conditions that warrant reefing in the first place. >The second problem arises when you attempt to get a tight foot by haulin= g in >on your aft reef line using the method you propose. Without the tack cringle >either hauled in or hooked at the gooseneck (depends on the system), you put >tremendous stress on the sail, sail boltrope, or sail slugs (again, depending >on your system). This stress usually occurs either at the slot at which the >bolt rope exits the mast or at the lowest sail slug/slide. My students >frequently snapped slugs by trying to reef in this manner. >We had our "intermediate" or "basic coastal cruising" (ASA designation) >students tie in and shake out reefs constantly. I feel that too many people >subject themselves and their crew to uncomfortable and dangerous conditi= ons >while trying to reef. Invariably, I see people trying to reef with no >steerage or way on--often with the motor on, and the boat headed dead in= to >the wind (and seas). Most jiffy/slab reefing systems are set up with th= e aft >reefing line you mention far enough forward along the boom (usually on t= he >starboard side--not coincidentally, as starboard tack will have right aw= ay >under many conditions) so that you can reef while on a relatively close >reach. This has manifold advantages. First, the boat will sail nicely under >jib alone while the main flogs (luffs). Second, you have steerage and w= ay >(read control), and are not a dead and vulnerable target in the water >(vulnerable to other boats or rough seas). Third, if you were on a reac= h in >the first place, you continue to make headway toward your destination. = I >especially like this approach for safety, as the boom, which would otherwise >be flailing amidships (heads get smacked) is now off to the leeward side >(away from heads). The order of events is as follows: > >1) Hold or move to a moderately close reach on the tack that will allow = you >access to your reefing lines/halyard/tack hook (if set up properly, they will >all be same side). >2) Ease mainsheet until mainsail is luffing sufficiently (again, if done >correctly, this should result in the boom off the leeward rail. Ease/release >your vang if it is on. >3) ease halyard and pull new tack cringle down. Hook or secure dependin= g on >system. >4) While the main is still luffing, haul in the new clew using the aft r= eef >line led forward along boom (usually reachable without having to lean out--if >not, move it forward along boom so that it is). Tension foot by hauling line >taught (can put one wrap on cleat and pull downward on line aft on cleat= to >get mechanical advantage). Cleat off. >5) Haul main halyard and retension luff. Cleat off. >6) coil excess line and secure >7) resheet main so that reef point ties are safely accessible (so that y= ou do >not have to lean out over the water to tie them). Foot should be taught >enough that points are only gathering unused slab of sail (a loose foot = can >result in too much loading of points--they are a frequent point of failu= re on >boats not properly reefed). Roll or otherwise gather the removed slab. Use >slip reef knots so that the reef can be shaken out quickly and safely. >8) resume point of sail desired. >9) If boat is still overpowered, tie in an additional reef and/or reduce >headsail to reduce drive through the slot (the jib accelerates the air around >the back of main. Going to a reefed or smaller jib opens up this slot, = and >depowers the main.) > >If you are shorthanded, or if conditions dictate, you can perform the sa= me >procedure while heaving-to. One advantage of reefing while heaving-to i= s >that the stalled hull creates a slick to windward of the boat that actua= lly >helps to flatten out the seas (honest!) I have tried this on the M15, a= nd >while it is not as effective as boats with more underbody, it does work. >The reefing procedure is the same as above excepting that you are stalle= d >slightly off the wind instead of making way. One procedure for heaving-= to is >as follows: > >1) Determine which tack you will need to be on to access lines. Also >determine whether you have enough sea room to slowly drift to leeward of that >tack. >2) Tack through the wind to end up on that tack LEAVING THE JIB BACKWIND= ED. >3) Immediately push the tiller to windward and secure (or have someone h= old >if not singlehanding). >4) Ease mainsheet to point at which the sail begins to luff (you may hav= e to >sheet in a little to maintain your "heading"--but not so much so that yo= u >cannot lower/reef the sail. >5) To exit a heave-to, ease the backwinded jib (allow to cross) and cent= er >the helm to resume headway on the same tack as you were previously heaved-to. > >It takes a little practice, but you should be able to get to the point where >the boat either makes slow leeway and very little headway, or where it heads >up and falls off repeatedly--also without much headway and just a little >leeway. In addition to providing a safe and steady (or steadier) platfo= rm >for reefing, it is a good storm tactic. I sometimes use it when >singlehanding to change in or out of foul weather gear, read a chart, gr= ab >something to eat, or answer the call of nature. > >OK, that is my last dissertation for a while. Sorry if I stepped on any toes. > >Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "b=E9be" > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: ceneter board lowering Date: 29 Jul 1999 22:03:45 -0700 jerry montgomery wrote: > > Hi Peter > Noticed your message on the list and thought I'd comment. The late > productions 17's with the glass board are like the 15 in thAt the knot > is what limits the board from over-dropping. It should NOT clunk- the > clunk means that it is bottoming out on the forward end of the slot,.... Oh oh ... Thanks Jerry! I'll re-knot the lanyard to prevent the board lowering too far. Sure is nice having you on the list :) Thanks! -Peter- -- ====================== Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 Victoria, BC CA http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: problems Date: 30 Jul 1999 13:11:53 EDT In a message dated 7/30/99 8:51:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jk@yosemite.net writes: << This is a test. Last night I experiencing problems with oversized M-boats messages overloading and stalling my computer. Am I alone in this? >> Oversized egos may be closer to the problem. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZYacht@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Revisiting the order of reefing events Date: 30 Jul 1999 14:19:35 EDT Scott, Do not be concerned with toes! This is what makes the world go around. ( differing opinions ) I have taught sailing ( US Sailing instructor ) for....awhile. I have printed out your discourse and will digest, if its 'better' than what I believe I am doing now I will make use of it and give credit for same.Thanks for taking the time. P.S. I am currently changing my reefing to -single line internal- This is not a big boat with great loads on the sails. Again my disdain for slugs is borne out! Just what are they there for today unless you have a mast that will not accom. a bolt rope?? Gary Oberbeck M-17 #319 To continue I will take this off the list, My apologies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Sorry Joe (and others too) Date: 30 Jul 1999 16:21:05 EDT In a message dated 7/30/1999 8:51:53 AM, you wrote: <> Joe et al, Please accept my apology for carrying on last night. In retrospect, I can see that my messages were too long, and perhaps a bit to pointed. I'll try to behave from here on out! Scott Grometer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: M_Boats: RE: RE: That aint a topping lift you lazy jack! Date: 30 Jul 1999 16:23:03 EDT In a message dated 7/30/1999 9:19:38 AM, you wrote: <> Agreed. Fair winds to you Dennis, and sorry if I stepped on your toes with my comments/opinions. Scott Grometer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: M_Boats: Revisiting the order of reefing events Date: 30 Jul 1999 16:33:18 EDT In a message dated 7/30/1999 11:21:39 AM, you wrote: <> Thanks for the kind words. No credit necessary--we all learn from each other. Let me know how it goes. Single line reefing does sound attractive. How will your system be set up? Did you see the kit portrayed in the Harken catalog? I guess I am getting old. I used to favor the bolt rope main, but my bent toward cruising has me giving up speed and clean sail lines for the convenience of being able to douse, flake, stow, and cover on boom more easily while at anchor. Happy Sails, Scott Grometer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "THOMAS VAN ATTA" Subject: M_Boats: unsubscribe Date: 30 Jul 1999 16:10:58 -0700 unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: suthdrug@rosenet.net Subject: M_Boats: Re:Revisiting the order of reefing events Date: 31 Jul 1999 02:42:33 GMT Reefing???? Reefing is for wimps!......(or for folks like myself that haven't quite figured out how or when to do it.) To be quite honest I have been quite pleased just to get the sails up with all the lines going in approximately the right direction and not sinking before the end of the day. When I learn how to reef I'll jump right in their with the rest of you. In the meantime keep enjoying the water any way you can. Ian in Oregon M-17 #343 Seaweeble ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: M_Boats: Kayaking Date: 30 Jul 1999 20:03:14 -0700 Hello all, Bought and used a tandem kayak last weekend- a model called 'Pamlico' by Wilderness Systems. Great boat for two- moves easily, weighs 60 lbs. so is pretty easy to get on top of a sport/ute and is very comfortable. Highly recommend it for times when you just want to get on the water quickly and don't feel like messing with your topping lift. Excellent! Fran M15 #236 "Kind of Blue" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Kayaking Date: 30 Jul 1999 09:14:02 -0500 Dear Fran, It looks like you've named your boat! I wish mine were a "real" color - "kind of off-white" just doesn't have the same ring to it... :-) Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: boat naming & wishful thinking.... Date: 31 Jul 1999 12:28:55 PDT What a momentous occasion! Did you have a little christening ceremony, = Fran? Congratulations on the new boat name. In my mind, anyway, coming up with= a satisfactory name has got to be one of the tougher decisions in life. = :^) Well, hey, Rachel.....off white? Sorta cream colored? How about "Cream = Puff"? ;-) If I were able to buy a brand spanking new boat today, I think I would = actually *choose* an off white color. Doug Kelch's boat "Seas the Day" is like that, sort = of a pale tannish color, and it's easy on the eyes. Then I think I'd go with dark green = boot & sheer stripes, dark green cushions, and tanbark sails. *sigh*. Of course, Egyptian cot= ton color like Doug's new sails looks good too.....Hmmm. Just picture it coasting along= on a beam reach through a channel between some rocky, cedar-covered islands. Saving my pennies, Tod Mills P.S. Going up to Lake Erie now with my little JY9. Nice breeze! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: boat naming & wishful thinking.... Date: 31 Jul 1999 09:33:20 -0700 htmills@bright.net wrote: > > What a momentous occasion! Did you have a little christening ceremony, Fran? > Congratulations on the new boat name. In my mind, anyway, coming up with a > satisfactory name has got to be one of the tougher decisions in life. Well, let's not get too carried away, Tod. What's in a name, after all? The name I chose is the name of an acclaimed album of Miles Davis' that I really enjoy listening to. I think my husband will still call her "old blue", tho. Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: color Date: 31 Jul 1999 09:39:32 -0700 rland@win.bright.net wrote: > > Dear Fran, > > It looks like you've named your boat! I wish mine were a "real" color > - "kind of off-white" just doesn't have the same ring to it... :-) > > Rachel Rachel, Maybe you could add some colored cushions,telltales, ropes, paint the trailer some cool color or two, colored sailcovers... you could go anywhere with a white boat. I have to concern myself with clashing when I think of accessories! Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: boat naming & wishful thinking.... Date: 31 Jul 1999 13:21:48 EDT In a message dated 7/31/99 9:30:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time, dlebowitz@sprintmail.com writes: << The name I chose is the name of an acclaimed album of Miles Davis' that I really enjoy listening to. >> Oh, Fran..........I missed it... :( What is the new name, p-l-e-a-s-e........... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: boat naming & wishful thinking.... Date: 31 Jul 1999 14:16:05 EDT "Dark green cusions" Not in Arizona. Ever see second degree burns on the backs of legs? Ooouuch!! Decks and cusions should be white wherever the sun shines predominantly. Not just AZ. Sandy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert A. Pelc" Subject: Re: M_Boats: boat naming Date: 31 Jul 1999 14:47:02 -0400 For all of us in the naming process finding a name is just the begining. Now how to put it on the boat? Lettering is to steep in the $$$ area, I think. A friend of mine made his own using Print Shop program on his computer. Choose the font, size, graphics then use the mirror feature and print the lettering out on the back side of white vynle contact paper cut to standard paper size. Then cut them out carefully with a exacto knife. Peel and stick. His have been on his boat that is in a slip over a year and still look good, apparently contact paper handles UV rays OK. I am going to try it and save some cash. Bob Samba ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: boat naming Date: 31 Jul 1999 13:45:52 -0600 I read of a method where you created your graphic on paper, then traced around the lettering using a hand tool with a roller that created fine perforations. This was supposed to allow you to transfer the outline to the boat by rubbing through the perforations, then fill in by hand. -----Original Message----- > > For all of us in the naming process finding a name is just the begining. >Now how to put it on the boat? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Kayaking Date: 31 Jul 1999 16:50:51 -0400 Fran, I like the name, "Kind of Blue", but was pulling for "Blew on Blue". Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: risk of heat strokes eminent above 70 Date: 31 Jul 1999 19:05:32 PDT Well, Sandy, you probably won't ever see me sailing in AZ then. I prefer= cooler weather and as a consequence head north to Canada for my favorite conditi= ons. I see those beautiful pictures of sandy beaches in the carribbean and won= der if I would be able to hack the heat.... ;-P Tod ---------- > "Dark green cusions" Not in Arizona. Ever see second degree burns on = the > backs of legs? Ooouuch!! Decks and cusions should be white wherever = the > sun shines predominantly. Not just AZ. Sandy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Nesbitts" Subject: M_Boats: First sail in Minnesota Date: 31 Jul 1999 18:10:06 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BEDB7F.EB3E22C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It was a beautiful day with a strong breeze in central Minnesota. = Finally after 3 years of working on my M-17 and numerous delays, we were = ready to sail. Thanks to Rachel's swing-up rudder we could sail on the = lake where we have a cabin. Bass Lake near Annandale, MN is not very = deep. My wife and I are novice sailors and because of the strong = breeze, I elected to just use the jib. I thought we would have less to = worry about. I haven't figured out how to reef the main, although I = think I am close to understanding the procedure, just not the finer = points. I should have done it. With just the jib, we zipped across the = lake but it was difficult to change course and not go into irons. So = for awhile it was great. We decided that we would have been better off = reefing the main and using both sails. Anyway it was great to move = across the water without a motor in a boat that we brought back from the = dead after it sat for 10 years. Hopefully my sailing skills will = improve.=20 Mike, thanks about the tip on Brasso. It took the black tire marks off = the side of my white boat with little effort. =20 Rachel, the rudder worked great. It was sure nice to meet you. You = live in a beautiful part of our country. Bob Nesbitt Pretty Tacky II #266 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BEDB7F.EB3E22C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It was a beautiful day with a strong = breeze in=20 central Minnesota.   Finally after 3 years of working on my = M-17 and=20 numerous delays, we were ready to sail.   Thanks to Rachel's = swing-up=20 rudder we could sail on the lake where we have a cabin.  Bass Lake = near=20 Annandale, MN is not very deep.  My wife and I are novice sailors = and=20 because of the strong breeze, I elected to just use the jib. I thought = we =20 would have less to worry about.  I haven't figured out how to reef = the=20 main, although I think I am close to understanding the procedure, just = not the=20 finer points.  I should have done it.  With just the jib, we = zipped=20 across the lake but  it was difficult to change course and not go = into=20 irons.  So for awhile it was great.  We decided that we would = have=20 been better off reefing the main and using both sails.  Anyway it = was great=20 to move across the water without a motor in a boat that we brought back = from the=20 dead after it sat for 10 years.  Hopefully my sailing skills will = improve.=20
 
Mike, thanks about the tip on = Brasso.  It=20 took the black tire marks off the side of my white boat with little=20 effort. 
 
Rachel, the rudder worked = great.  It was=20 sure nice to meet you.  You live in a beautiful part of our=20 country.
 
Bob Nesbitt
Pretty Tacky II
#266
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BEDB7F.EB3E22C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hbkwant@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: M15 Ad Date: 31 Jul 1999 19:29:18 EDT Pulled this off of traderonline.com. Thought someone might be interested: 1989 Montgomery 15, 15 feet, Boat and trailer in excellent condition. Main and Jib are like new. Can be pulled with 4-cyl. Has been garaged most of the time. , $4,000.00, (520) 322-6032 Location: Tucson, AZ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: risk of heat strokes eminent above 70 Date: 31 Jul 1999 21:05:30 EDT Tod; I've been to the British Virgins 4 times and sailed Florida's West coast from Tampa to Key West and NOTHING compares to a nice July afternoon on our lakes. I keep hearing how we have a dry heat, so is your oven. Sandy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: risk of heat strokes eminent above 70 Date: 31 Jul 1999 21:45:13 EDT In a message dated 7/31/99 6:06:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Sandyal55@aol.com writes: << . I keep hearing how we have a dry heat, so is your oven. Sandy >> You got that right Sandy,,,,,,,110 or 115 in the shade with no breeze in sight.........I'll take 90/90 with a good ocean breeze anyday. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: color Date: 30 Jul 1999 10:30:44 -0500 > I have to concern myself with clashing when > I think of accessories! > Fran > > Ah, yes, accesorizing...I'd forgotten about that - or maybe I'm not letting myself think about it until the boat's in the water :-) > Then I think I'd go with dark green boot & sheer stripes, > dark green cushions, and tanbark sails. *sigh*. Of course, Egyptian cotton color like > Doug's new sails looks good too.....Hmmm. Just picture it coasting along on a beam reach > through a channel between some rocky, cedar-covered islands. That sounds great, Tod, just the dash of color my boat needs! It does look just a tad dull right now - off-white hull, grey teak, and faded blue boot-stripe. But, Bob Eeg's going to hopefully be selling me some new teak (mine's so grooved that it'd be quite a bit smaller by the time I sanded it smooth - I tried a little piece), and I've been thinking about painting the sheer strake some shade of green, so she should be looking up soon :-) And when the sails need replacement... Just out of curiosity, a question for those of you with "factory" colored sheer strakes --- is the color right in the glass? Or is it painted on afterwards? --- Rachel P.S. Fran - I _thought_ that "Kind of Blue" sounded like it could be the name of a song... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail in Minnesota Date: 30 Jul 1999 10:40:35 -0500 Bob, Glad to hear the rudder worked out -- now that you've had it out sailing, your boat has officially been brought back to life! Sounded like you had a nice day. At least part of my boat has been out sailing :-) I was _under_ my boat scraping bottom paint :-( Luckily whoever painted it before didn't do a very good job of prepping or painting. There's only one or two coats on, and it's not very difficult to get down to the gelcoat. Although it's a little cramped down there... Now I'm glad I didn't get a 28 footer :-) In fact an M-15 was starting to sound like a better size... I can't wait to be out there on my first sail --- Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: risk of heat strokes eminent above 70 Date: 31 Jul 1999 21:41:44 -0700 htmills@bright.net wrote: > > Well, Sandy, you probably won't ever see me sailing in AZ then. I prefer cooler > weather and as a consequence head north to Canada for my favorite conditions. > I see those beautiful pictures of sandy beaches in the carribbean and wonder if > I would be able to hack the heat.... ;-P > > Tod > Hi Tod, then you should have been out with me today on the Juan de Fuca Strait. Got a bit chilly ... cool enough to wear my survival suit! But apart from that, had a great day sailing. Got to sail around one of your aircraft carriers that's visiting Victoria. Had to beat back to the launch ramp, about 12 miles, with a stiff breeze and moderate sea. I'm finally getting used to the boat's heal, and spent about 4 hours with the lee rail *almost* under. What made the sailing so nice was the fact the wind was very steady, not gusty, like it usually is. It gave me a chance to see what a stable boat the M17 is! She taught me a lot today :) -Peter- -- Peter Jacobs Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm